Holly Wagner | If You Don't Quit You Win

Choosing A Different Path

SPEAKER_00 0:00

I mean, I had a choice. I could get drunk at frat parties or hang out with the actors, and I chose to hang out with the actors. I got an agent and I thought I'm just gonna try this. So I got cast in a television show that took me to Los Angeles. Hard is good, because hard's we all have to deal with hard. But is it doable hard or destructive hard? It was certainly the hardest season in ministry, and I never really wanted to quit until the death of my dad. Then Philip gets diagnosed with cancer. And then one of my best friends just stabs me in the back. So I'm dealing with this betrayal. The things I would say is I didn't ask why. I feel like why is kind of a pointless question. I asked more, how can I get through this? God left some enemies in the land because there was a generation who didn't know how to fight.

Fly Fishing And The Learning Curve

SPEAKER_00 0:56

And I became a big fan of fly fishing.

SPEAKER_01 0:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 0:58

Because you're doing something all the time. Yeah. It's funny.

SPEAKER_01 1:03

I was just somebody just asked me that. Have you fly fished? And I was like, yeah. I mean, so different. The biggest difference is when you're casting a lure, right? The weight of the lure causes it to go out. But with the fly, you're casting the weight of the line.

SPEAKER_00 1:15

Line. Yes. So it's you, it's learning that dance.

SPEAKER_01 1:19

And did you did they do on sometimes the people that start, they'll do like a little float.

SPEAKER_00 1:24

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 1:25

Did they give you all the little floats? Yes, where you can do the float and kind of watch it at first. Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:30

And then you're always pulling it. And then doing it in the um doing it from the bank or waving in is one thing. And then we got in a little inner tube thing, you know? And so then I'm just like, I don't want to catch anybody's head. Do you know what I mean? Now you're just like trying to urban. It's a long rock.

SPEAKER_01 1:46

It's really long, yeah. It's true. But it was fun. So I caught um, so we went on a trip into Alaska and went in jet boats way up in like the rivers. Wow. And um, and so yeah, that was that was really fun. So I haven't done a lot of it, but I've done some. I caught a 27-inch Dolly Barden trout in a remote river in Alaska. So that's like really fun.

SPEAKER_00 2:12

And we just went on the Yellowstone. So we just went in there. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:16

That was kind of do they have it where you can tour it and stuff now? You just can't it's basically like a tourist site or just special people or what?

SPEAKER_00 2:23

No, you you we just got hired a guide. And so you walked through Yellowstone and went to a river that a part of the Yellowstone River that you can fish on.

SPEAKER_01 2:30

Oh, you're talking about Yellowstone National Park. Yes, so I thought you were talking about Yellowstone, the movie scene.

SPEAKER_00 2:34

The movie, yeah. Well, there you go. Which is where they got it from, was the park, right?

SPEAKER_01 2:38

The park, yes. Okay. So you're they they'll let you fish in the park. Okay. I did not know that. Yeah, it's that's cool.

SPEAKER_00 2:43

It's very cool.

SPEAKER_01 2:44

So, Holly,

Connection To Milestone And Texas

SPEAKER_01 2:45

when when is the first time you came to Milestone? Which we just spent time here talking about fly fishing, which I think was really cool.

SPEAKER_00 2:53

I mean, because why not? Why wouldn't you talk about fly fishing on a podcast?

SPEAKER_01 2:56

Exactly. I mean, I but I that's a topic I want to talk about because I think that's pretty amazing.

SPEAKER_00 3:01

That's all the fishing I've ever done. So that's it.

SPEAKER_01 3:03

And and and how good it here's a question I have. How good did you really feel? Like, how will you grade yourself first time you did it? You're in Yellowstone, you got this rod, you're learning how. And how would how do you feel by the end of your time would you give yourself from your casting ability?

SPEAKER_00 3:21

Well, if we're doing like school from kindergarten to twelfth grade, I think I'm in fifth grade.

unknown 3:27

Fifth grade?

SPEAKER_00 3:28

I went from preschool to fifth grade.

SPEAKER_01 3:31

Preschool to fifth, which is and and the biggest thing was feeling the weight of the line to get it to go up.

SPEAKER_00 3:37

And letting go at the right time, letting go. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:40

Yeah. Right? Because you have the little bitty line, yes, and then you have the heavy line and like feeling that go through the guides. That's actually a pretty good idea.

SPEAKER_00 3:50

I know, and I kept picturing that movie, remember a river runs through it, right? And I kept picturing that, and I go, they made it look so easy, but it is not, it takes a minute.

SPEAKER_01 3:58

That's so good. The 10 and 2, right? The 10 and 2, and then and then my brother developed the shadow cast, and he was like, That was pretty cool.

SPEAKER_03 4:07

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 4:08

So when was the first time though that you came? Brandy uh probably invited you to come and do a a ladies thing for us. Do you do you remember? Because you said Brandy was pregnant with our fourth daughter, Laney Kate.

SPEAKER_00 4:23

Yeah, and that's 16 years ago now, right? I think I met Brandy though before that at the at the the Robinsons. So I met her there. I did something with Jen for Jennifer and Steve there. And so I think I met her there, but I think that is I came to milestone when she was very pregnant with the gift.

SPEAKER_01 4:43

And I think I think uh yeah, they did a women's thing uh like in Florida or something, and Brandy came, but then her and Jennifer, I think, came to your uh women's thing, yes. The she rises. So so I wanted to say this to you. I just wanted to honor you. So thank you for like at that point where milestone is now, a lot of people would probably accept the invitation, but back then we were we were still, you know, getting going. You came. I've always just loved your your down-to-earth style. Just, you know, you you just I just feel like it's important. This is kind of my deal, yeah. You know, to to to step down where people are, right? Not to and you do that really well. I think you connect well with people that it's not like, oh, she's up here so far that I can't.

SPEAKER_00 5:29

Yeah, no, I'm not up there so far anywhere. And I just liked you guys. So I'm I'm all about the relationship more than anything else.

SPEAKER_01 5:36

Yeah, and then we also share one other thing. Your mom, so I'm from East Texas, right? So we have this connection with where I'm from and your mom. So not a lot of people know that little town yet. It's another country. It's another country.

SPEAKER_00 5:52

East Texas is another country, it's another place, right?

SPEAKER_01 5:55

Oh, yes. But I thought here's why I wanted to have you on. Okay. I do I just feel like uh your place in life. So tell tell us a little bit about that, by the way. Where where are your kids? You you've been married, how long? Where where I wanna I wanna say that for a reason, right? So we're we're tell us a little bit about that. Okay, and then I want to kind of frame your journey a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 6:17

All right. So um Philip and I have been married for 41 years, like in a row, the same to the same guy in a row. Listen, we pastored in LA, so in a row for a lot of years is like a big deal.

SPEAKER_01 6:29

That's right. That's right.

SPEAKER_00 6:31

Um, and then we uh And you still like each other? And we like most days.

SPEAKER_01 6:34

Most days. Most days, yes.

SPEAKER_00 6:36

Um and then we have two adult kids, and I have four grandchildren, which is the prize.

SPEAKER_02 6:41

That's the best.

SPEAKER_00 6:42

So it's the best.

SPEAKER_02 6:44

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 6:44

So it's a really great season. We pastored that church in LA for 35 years and then handed that off a couple of years ago. Uh-huh. And uh so now it's um I am in this season where I actually am free to travel more and I mentor a bunch of people and do different leadership things. And so I love, I love this season.

SPEAKER_01 7:03

How do you like being a Texan?

SPEAKER_00 7:04

Actually, I really like Texas too. Yeah, you know what? It's like it's the middle of the country. Yeah, it's the best travel hub. It is, yeah. It seriously is the best travel hub. So I'm in I'm enjoying that. And the people are so nice, so nice.

SPEAKER_01 7:17

Yeah, good barbecue, good Mexican food, all the things, great people, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:22

Really good people. It's so funny. For the first six months of Philip and I being here after being in LA for so long, for the first six months, I was just like, people were so nice. I was we were like, what do you want? Like we were so suspicious.

SPEAKER_02 7:35

We're like, Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:36

But then you go, no, that's just how people are here. They let you in on the freeway in front of them. I'm like, whoa.

SPEAKER_01 7:41

Yeah, the yeah. Sometimes. Sometimes that can get a little bit it's the California's benefit.

SPEAKER_00 7:48

That's right. They're not letting us.

SPEAKER_01 7:49

Yeah, they're not letting us in. So I want to go back all the way back to,

From Duke Medicine To Acting

SPEAKER_01 7:55

you know, starting OASIS Church, kind of take me on the journey. Here's here's what I would love for you to share, because I think I was just speaking last night to a leader that I'm mentoring and pastoring. And I was I found myself listening to them, you know, just they're in the throes of it. They're younger and they're, you know, and it's family and it's extended family, and it's this challenge, and it's it's you know, family that has this health issue. And it and I and I just found myself, you don't want to oversimplify it, but I just I found there's just no other way. No. You just have to go through the pressure, the pain, you know, and we were talking before this. If you don't quit, that's right, you you you win. But it can be hard sometimes. So tell me a little bit about it. Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_00 8:45

So I mean, I'll back up even further because I'm gonna make a point out of it. Is that my my my dad's job, um, I grew up all over the world. So I grew up in Venezuela, so fluent Spanish. I we lived in Indonesia, I went to high school in England, and then um went to university. I was at Duke. And so now and when I was at Duke, I was studying medicine because that's what I thought I was gonna do.

SPEAKER_02 9:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:11

And but they had a program there uh that you could get accepted into their, I don't know if they still do, but uh accepted into their medical school as an as an undergrad. You still had to finish, but you were already in Duke medical school. So that was kind of the program I was headed to do. So it was very intense and a lot. And so to burn off steam, I hung out with the actors, the thespians, because they're entertaining. I mean, I had a choice. You could get drunk at frat parties or hang out with the actors, and I chose to hang out with the actors. So I'm doing that, and and so I started being in just acting in some plays and loving that. It was very fun. And so I thought, you know what? I want to try this acting thing. And so, can you imagine the phone call to my parents? So, mom and dad, um, I want to go from this medical school, I'm gonna try acting. And so, but here's the great thing about my parents, they're like, it's your life, honey. So, okay, so then to um Duke is great at what they're great at, but theater's not really what they're known for. They're great law school, medical school, business, all that. And so then I looked for a great or just for a really good theater program, and SMU had a really good theater program. So I transferred to SMU and um to you know consider their theater program. And while I was here, I got uh I got an agent and I thought I'm just gonna try this. So I got cast in a television show that took me to Los Angeles.

SPEAKER_02 10:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 10:31

So that's how he ended up in LA.

SPEAKER_02 10:33

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 10:34

And um acting. And so I met Philip when the series that I was on was airing, and he was already in ministry and he wasn't quite sure what to do with this actor girl, because you know, we have no morals, I guess. So but um, but I loved Jesus my whole life.

SPEAKER_02 10:52

Right.

SPEAKER_00 10:53

Um so we we sort of met while I was doing the acting thing, and then he was already again gonna be doing the ministry. And so when Oasis Church started, we were engaged. Was he working at a church or was he doing college ministry or had been a youth ministry ministry, okay, and then um had been an assistant pastor at a church, and um then it was time for him to and he'll then was leading a Bible study, and the Bible study he was leading was in the home of um an Academy Award winner. So he's teaching this Bible study, and there's like an Oscar on the mantle, you know, behind him. Cool. Anyways, so we're in this Bible study.

SPEAKER_01 11:31

We had social media now, it doesn't matter. It would have been very cool.

unknown 11:34

I know.

SPEAKER_01 11:34

Um listen, do a little reel of that. Um I'm to my Bible study.

SPEAKER_00 11:38

I'm just so glad we didn't our first years at church were not on social media. Can I just say that? Oh my god. Me too. Oh, I'm so grateful. Um, so then we got engaged, and then six months later, um while we were engaged, then six months later, um, or the church started, then six months later we got married.

SPEAKER_01 11:55

So was he already was he already headed to starting this church and you guys are kind of coming together, or were you fueling that? Let's start a church, or how was that work?

SPEAKER_00 12:03

No, I feel like it was probably already in him.

SPEAKER_01 12:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:06

And then I just because I I was still acting. I mean, I was still making a living as an actress, and which we're really grateful for because it funded our life. My acting gigs funded our life for a minute. Um But was what the the thing is, it's like I didn't know, you know, when I was all that history with my family living around the world, and um, I didn't know that God basically wanted me in LA. So he used everything I gave him, yeah, which was this acting thing, and he used it to get me to LA because he had a mission for me there, right? To partner with Philip to plant this church and and then I then look down the road at Oasis Church, which was 20% Hispanic, 20% black, 20% Asian, 20% you know, white, and the rest married each other and very mixed. And so because I lived all over the world, that was normal for me.

SPEAKER_01 12:57

Yeah, right. So I think graduates, all the parts whereas when you were in the middle of it, you could have been like, Well, why didn't I have a hometown and go to the same school and graduate? Or, you know, if you back to social media or today, right? I think we have so many comparisons, right? Or expectations, but you could have been, yeah, I think you could have easily like, how did I end up with the dad that travels all over the world and then in the rearview mirror, which I I think is something there, don't you think? No, uh-huh. That's why I brought it up.

SPEAKER_00 13:27

I just feel like it's important to to to trust God with your whole life.

SPEAKER_02 13:31

Right. Right.

SPEAKER_00 13:32

And so, and not look at what somebody else's ha has, right? So to trust him with their whole life. So I feel like that's that um

Planting A Church In Los Angeles

SPEAKER_00 13:40

helped me do what I do.

SPEAKER_02 13:41

Right. Right. That yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:42

So then Oasis Church starts, and um then we were we're in that Bible study, and there were some very famous people in that Bible study, and we're thinking, okay, there might have been 80 or 90 in the Bible study crammed in this house, and we go, start a church. Well, you know, they didn't all come with us to the church. Like there's yeah, there's 20 of us in this, you know, elementary school auditorium or whatever. Um yeah, and so the those early years I think were really tough. Philip came out of the Jesus movement, so he really came back to the Lord in the Jesus Revolution. You've seen the movie, so that was his it was there when there was a hundred people. So he was in those early days. Right. And so in in that move of God, all you had to do was play the guitar and and talk about Jesus, and people came. Well, well, we tried that, it wasn't really working.

SPEAKER_02 14:31

It wasn't really working. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 14:33

So we realized, oh, we need to some leadership stuff would be really good.

SPEAKER_02 14:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:37

So we had to begin the journey of learning about leadership and you were you were schools, temper?

SPEAKER_01 14:45

I mean, is uh getting in facilities and that's not an easy thing in LA, right?

SPEAKER_00 14:50

So schools and auditoriums and community centers, and you know, I think Philip added them all up, and we had been in 17 buildings. By the time we bought this, you know, what would be our last build our last building, the cathedral that we have? Um 17.

SPEAKER_01 15:04

So what was what were some of the things you would say to somebody though, like when you look back on the journey, okay, and and the leading people and shepherding people and building a church and like what what do you think are some keys to success, or what are what are some things that you've you've what do you find right now you say to that 30-year-old person? Maybe because we have people here, we have college students, we have you know, some of our people that are within ministry training circles, serve team. I only I've I've always been amazed too is that like people in the community that you know a superintendent of schools, right? So they're in the middle of leading people, parents. If you were to talk to your younger self, or what do you find yourself saying? What what do you what do you think is valuable in that? You know, three or four things that you think you learned on that journey.

SPEAKER_00 15:57

Um good question.

The Black Belt Myth Of Growth

SPEAKER_00 15:59

So I um when my son was seven, I he was taking karate, and I thought, you know what? That looks like a lot of fun. I'm gonna take karate too. Okay, and so I joined his class and I looked on the wall, and I show up in my little white uniform, my stiff little white belt, I'm gonna take karate, and I looked on the wall, and there's all the colors of belts, right? It goes from you know white and yellow and orange and red all the way to black. And I thought, I'm gonna get that. Oh, yeah, and so I'm I'm gonna do this. And what I did what I learned is like, and so I feel like we all want a black belt life, a black belt marriage, a black belt church. We all want that, whatever that is for you, we want that. Yeah, but you don't go from white to black, there's a bunch of things you have to go through. And so I started thinking like the things that um that I had to deal with in ministry and karate, but like it's just sometimes it's just the routine.

SPEAKER_02 16:53

Right.

SPEAKER_00 16:54

There's there's there's daily things you have to do. Right. Like in karate, it was learning to fall and block punches and all that. But in ministry, it's the daily stuff. It's showing up for one more meeting, right? Right, it's having one more conversation.

SPEAKER_02 17:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:05

It's hearing, uh reading my Bible every day, whether it's jumping out at the pages at me or not. Yeah. Right. And so I think we and I know that sounds like seems like duh, but I feel like today everybody wants the flash, everybody wants the exciting thing. Right. But you don't get to where you want to get without pushing through the boring and the routine of doing the work exactly in a marriage. Like there's some boring days in a marriage, there's some boring days in church. Like this, yeah, oh well, you push through them. Like you just push through the and so I just think for me, that was one of the things. Um and then uh there are some hard things.

SPEAKER_02 17:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:44

There are some hard things. So certainly, you know, there's some hard things in the in karate for sure. Um but hard things in ministry, like dealing with uh betrayal. Yeah, you know, betrayal's really hard.

SPEAKER_02 17:56

It is.

SPEAKER_00 17:56

And I'm very um while I I'm good at getting systems and getting all that going, I'm really relational. And so for me, I the people drama is the worst hard or the hardest thing.

SPEAKER_01 18:09

Because you love deep, right? So the only only way to hurt deep is love deep. I I love I thought about when we were gonna have the conversation, I thought this is gonna be easy because Holly likes to talk and she's kind of bubbly and she's relational, and I'm and I relate because I was told in seminary, like, don't get close to your people, but like I don't know any other way to do it. So I really love the people. I think some people love their Bible or love their teaching or love. I mean, we're all wired different, but the only way to hurt is to care.

SPEAKER_03 18:36

Right.

SPEAKER_01 18:37

You know, I had a lady come out of church the other day, she goes, I just feel like you care.

SPEAKER_00 18:40

I was like, Imagine that. You know, and so I just think like that, there's some hard. It's hard though. So the betrayals are hard. It's hard. And it's it's also hard to have those um fierce conversations, right? Right? And you have to have them, whether it's in ministry or merit, you have to have the hard conversations. And um this is a question that Philip and I use to use it with our team, we would say um hard is good because hard's we all have to deal with hard, but is it doable hard or destructive hard?

SPEAKER_02 19:13

That's good.

SPEAKER_00 19:14

Yeah, because doable hard like forgiving somebody. That's it's hard because I want to punch them in the throat.

SPEAKER_02 19:20

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 19:21

Right? But it's doable hard.

SPEAKER_02 19:23

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_00 19:24

And so what's destructive hard? So we would look at the calendar and we would go, is this doable hard for our church or destructive hard for our church?

SPEAKER_02 19:31

I love that.

SPEAKER_00 19:31

Or the or like um comparison, like comparison is destructive hard.

SPEAKER_02 19:36

Right.

SPEAKER_00 19:37

You can learn from people and be inspired, yeah, but it's destructive hard, right? Or toxic relationships are destructive hard. Right. Just ask Samson. He has to do it with Delilah, right? Talk to you. And so I just think answering that question. So it's gonna be hard. There will be hard seasons. Um and then I think there are painful ones.

SPEAKER_02 19:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:58

There are really painful seasons in you know, life, certainly in ministry. And I think even in karate, it dawned on me that this was a contact sport, you know. So I started getting punched in the face. And I think I have both I have deviated septums on both sides. So I'm karate? Yes, I'm pretty sure I could get a nose job for free now with from kick or punch. Um punch. Punch.

SPEAKER_01 20:19

Punch, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:20

So my blocks got better eventually, but uh yeah. And I broke so many toes, you just like tape them up, get bugged on the mat, right? Yeah. So it there's some painful parts of karate, but but honestly, there are painful parts in ministry. Yes. And so pushing through things. And um, you know, I felt, you know, I dealt with cancer and which is pretty

Facing Cancer While Leading People

SPEAKER_00 20:40

painful. Yeah. Because you still have to show up for your people.

SPEAKER_01 20:42

Right. Right?

SPEAKER_00 20:43

You still you push through, you show up, you and then there was a season. Go ahead, sorry.

SPEAKER_01 20:47

Tell me about that. I mean, did was that was there any it was like out of the blue. Like was there any family history? Did you ever think about it? Or was it one of these things of, okay, you know, we just did a mammogram, you have cancer. Was it how how did it come? How did you find out? Did you have any symptoms?

SPEAKER_00 21:04

Did you, what was no, I know so and I am one of those, this might be TMI. I'm one of those ones who think we should for women should check themselves and say, I found it.

SPEAKER_02 21:13

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_00 21:14

So the mammogram didn't. I found it.

SPEAKER_02 21:16

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 21:16

And so then um, anyway, so then the biopsy, and sure enough, it was cancer, and there's none in my family, nobody's in my family's ever had it. And I was young.

SPEAKER_02 21:25

Hold on. So 40. 40 or so.

SPEAKER_00 21:26

So so that's pretty young. Yeah. A lot of times it's happens more menopausal, right? But there are more and more actually young women kind of getting it now.

SPEAKER_03 21:34

Right.

SPEAKER_00 21:34

Or maybe it was 43, but anyway, early 40s. Um, so it was a little bit of a surprise there. Um, and so then there's the heart of you know, navigating it in the way I remember standing in front of our church and realizing I I'm I'm also gonna tell people, I'm not gonna pretend I don't have something, right? So but I have to lead people, right? So I remember saying, like, just being clear with What I got diagnosed with. And I said, So we're going on an adventure. Here we go.

SPEAKER_02 22:05

Right.

SPEAKER_00 22:06

And I'll be honest with you the whole way through. And um, so there were times I would I taught in the middle of it. And I remember I did this message called Lessons from the Middle of the Battle, right? I don't know the end yet. Right. So but I just think those are just the moments.

SPEAKER_01 22:19

And and well, you know what I think though people underestimate is it's like I want my I want the leader to be transparent. People always just love that when we were when we have a transparency and authenticity. But what they underestimate is you choosing to do that, which for your personality and everything probably was therapeutic and it also probably encouraged a lot of people. You also took on a lot of emotional weight.

SPEAKER_00 22:43

Yes, I did.

SPEAKER_01 22:44

Because now you have hundreds of people going, How are you doing? And what do you do? What's going on? And how do I, you know, and can't is there anything you need? And it's like in you people that are really struggling, you're kind of like, don't ask somebody what they need, figure out what they need and send it. That's exactly Amazon it to them. Amazon it to yes.

SPEAKER_00 23:00

Yes, yes, yes to that, by the way. It's a good plan.

SPEAKER_01 23:03

Because you're trying to you're you you took on that day when you stood in front of your church another level of emotional energy that I don't think a lot of people understand, right?

SPEAKER_00 23:12

That's very true.

SPEAKER_01 23:12

If you've never been in that position, yeah. Um, they don't know what it's like to have hundreds of people who genuinely care. They're not malicious at any level.

SPEAKER_00 23:21

And they're sending me, and I finally had to go, you know what? I'm I'm I'm doing a lot of research and I'm going to these holistic hospitals. So I appreciate your suggestions, but I've I got you know, it's had to like just I've got doctors and and I'm that was before chat GPT.

SPEAKER_01 23:35

Now everybody's a doctor.

SPEAKER_00 23:36

That's right. Everybody has the idea.

SPEAKER_01 23:37

I looked all this up, I did my own research, here's what you do.

SPEAKER_00 23:41

So yeah, that was and but I had my kids were young at that point too. That's a lot too, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:46

So just trying to realize I have to feel like you need to be emotionally there for them. That's a lot, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:51

So how you you went through treatments, you went to the Yes, went through surgeries and treatments, and um and and now I'm what is it, 25 years cancer free.

SPEAKER_01 23:59

So or 25 years cancer free.

SPEAKER_00 24:02

20 years, 22 years, something like that. Anyway.

SPEAKER_01 24:05

So you're looking back, right? You're you're you're looking back now at your stage of life. You know, what what what is all that about? Like why, why, you know, because there's we could get into all the theology. There's there's there's volumes of theology on pain, suffering. In fact, it it has been speculated in academic evaluation of people that are agnostic. It's it's really Christians' lack of an ability to explain pain and suffering that has created probably one of the largest barriers for the the the agnostic community, really. I don't disagree. I think it's these little petty things we argue about in church.

SPEAKER_00 24:44

No.

SPEAKER_01 24:44

If God is good, why do I have these bad things? How do you answer that? What what

Stop Asking Why Start Asking How

SPEAKER_01 24:50

was what was happening now that you look back? What how did you reconcile that with God?

SPEAKER_00 24:54

With you know, yeah, I think one of the the things I would say is I I didn't ask why. Yeah, I feel like why is kind of a pointless question. So I what I asked more, um, like how how can I get through this? Right. What do I need to do to get through this? And I I I mean, I just I see too many evidences in the Bible that Jesus walked with people and the disciples walked with people who hurt. So I knew he was walking with me. I wasn't in this fight alone.

SPEAKER_02 25:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:28

Um but it's interesting that you mentioned that because I feel like I had this one professor when I was back in grad school, and he might have been quoting one of the desert fathers or something, but he was saying that we experienced the presence of God in one of two places, either with extreme love or extreme suffering. And he said, and most of us don't know extreme love.

SPEAKER_02 25:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:48

So, and that's true. I thought so. When I was in the middle of that, and the just the pain and the fear, I could in that moment I felt the presence of God. In fact, I remember just being in a hospital bed and I was by myself at this particular moment, and and I just had this encounter with the Holy Spirit, and I felt I felt the fear of death leave me.

SPEAKER_02 26:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:09

Like leave.

SPEAKER_02 26:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:10

So, and to this day, I've I mean I want to be here for a long time, but I there's no fear anymore about that.

SPEAKER_02 26:16

Right.

SPEAKER_00 26:17

So I think there's those moments you get with God that you don't get other ways.

SPEAKER_01 26:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:23

And I think that's true.

SPEAKER_01 26:23

And then that that pain also became part of your purpose because then now you're sharing with all of these women that many times probably whether it's something as challenging as breast cancer, they probably generally feel like I'm carrying a burden that no one else can understand. So then you you begin to, you know, you minister in multiple settings, but specifically your conferences for women became a safe place for them to come and say, Hey, I'm I'm struggling. I got these challenges, you know.

SPEAKER_00 26:54

And then there was this, yes, and there was this season, even so now, later, years later, um probably the hardest season I of my life.

Grief Loss And Betrayal Collide

SPEAKER_00 27:05

And it was certainly the hardest season in ministry, and I'd never really wanted to quit until this one. And it started with the death of my dad. So he fell and hit his head, and I was very loved by my father. I mean, he cheered every dream I ever had, and I'm aware of what a gift that is, and I'm also aware that many people didn't have that. But he made he made loving God easy because I had already seen a loving father.

SPEAKER_01 27:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:27

Right. And so he died suddenly.

SPEAKER_01 27:28

And so I'm trying to when was that?

SPEAKER_00 27:31

That would have been in 2014.

SPEAKER_01 27:33

2014.

SPEAKER_00 27:33

So I'm trying to process that, and then Phillips, uh, my husband's identity gets stolen, and then they how they do it, they hack through his bank account um and they steal our savings account, and the bank wasn't liable because of how it was done. I mean, the FBI got involved in all that. So I'm trying to find a moment to grieve my dad, and then we are now we have this financial law, so I'm trying to process that. And then Philip gets diagnosed with cancer.

SPEAKER_02 27:58

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 27:58

So that so which is horrible, and his was um uh lymphoma, and so it was on his head, and and the treatment was so brutal for him that it like destroyed his immune system, and he started catching everything. So uh he got like everything that was going around, he caught it, and then he got shingles, like the worst case they had seen, and he couldn't really function because it was affecting his how he thought, and and then my daughter um made just a a really stupid decision, which we can talk about in a minute, but hard decision. So I'm trying to lead a church. I've got thousands of people counting on that. So I'm trying to lead a church and uh be a wife to my husband, and um and I'm was I'm sure I wasn't getting an A plus in all of them. I felt very like spread very thin, and then and then one of my best friends just stabs me in the back. So I'm dealing with this betrayal that's horrible. So I remember you know so I I was just so um under it. I just I was angry, like all of this. And I remember sitting on my couch and um I didn't want to talk to people, um, I didn't want to see people, and that's as you know, not who I am. And uh and I I just felt like God showed me a picture of who that woman would become.

SPEAKER_01 29:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:15

And she's this bitter, angry old woman. And so I knew I couldn't stay there.

SPEAKER_01 29:20

And and that was really what the enemy was after, right? Like he was wanting to stop you from the light and the love and the and what you you know. I and and I would say, you know, the last six years as a pastor has been a tough, it's it's tough. Like I I actually try to encourage a lot of the younger pastors who don't know who they are. I mean, I'm thankful that I've had a longer, I think as you go along, hopefully you're getting a little better. You obviously don't arrive, but I kind of have a little more security in, hey, here's I know who God's called me to be, right? But I just think it is such an interesting season today with all the pressures that you have. And the I begin to realize, like, I'm a pastor, I love people, I want to serve people. And the enemy really wants me to get frustrated, wants me to get sidetracked and stop, you know, using when you know the enemy told me during the COVID thing, you're not gonna make it out of this, right? Yeah, you start feeling this, you're not gonna make it out of this, you know. I told him to get six feet back and wear a mask. But anyway. But you know what's really interesting when the enemy's telling you one thing, it's usually the opposite. Actually, it was like, oh, this is my greatest opportunity to use a unique gift that God's given me. And I and I think that's what has happened. All these painful things just have feud your fuel. You have such an exhortive, you know, encouraging and it the oil comes from the olives, but no one likes it.

SPEAKER_00 30:56

By crushing the crushing of the smashing of the olives.

SPEAKER_01 31:00

That's not the fun part.

SPEAKER_00 31:02

But it's interesting that that you're even saying that there's this verse

Learning To Fight With Love

SPEAKER_00 31:05

in um Judges. Okay, so there's two verses. Like the end of Judges 2 is the saddest verse in the whole Bible where it says that there after Joshua died and the elders died, then there arose a generation who didn't know God or what God had done. Right. Right. And so then at the beginning of Judges three, it says, uh this, I just saw this, I don't know, a couple of years ago, and it said God left some enemies in the land because there was a generation who didn't know how to fight.

SPEAKER_02 31:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:34

So, and I thought he could have just taken them all out, but why didn't he? Because there's a generation that didn't know how to fight. So I feel like today there is a generation that doesn't know how to fight, that doesn't know how to stand. Yeah. And so I feel like my job is to actually tell the stories of the hard and the painful and and to encourage, no, you just have to stand.

SPEAKER_02 31:56

Right.

SPEAKER_00 31:56

Right? You need to learn how to fight and stand. Yes. So because they're coming your way too.

SPEAKER_02 32:01

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 32:01

And and so when people like um it's it's just like we're we're we're taking territory from the enemy. We're invading the kingdom of darkness.

SPEAKER_02 32:11

Right.

SPEAKER_00 32:11

We're not gonna be given that.

SPEAKER_02 32:13

We have to take it. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 32:15

Right? Yeah. And so you have so there has to be this little bit of hutzpah in you to do that. And so I feel like we we make it the things that again, I think sometimes, and this probably isn't you, but the things that perhaps we did was make it about the platform, we made it look easy, we we we made it about the smoke and the lights and all of that. And so then that that looked easy. And then you get young people now standing in ministry and they go, oh, this is really hard.

SPEAKER_02 32:45

This is really hard. Yeah. People are coming after me now.

SPEAKER_00 32:47

I think I'll I'm gonna do something else.

SPEAKER_02 32:49

Right.

SPEAKER_00 32:49

And so I just wonder if we have prepared people for the fight. And so I feel like that's a little bit what I need to do. Like the season of life I'm in right now is preparing people for the fight. You're gonna have to fight through this a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 32:59

Yeah. I think, and I, you know, I think every time I would take ground, every time we would have a building campaign, and where the enemy really attacks us is in the health arena, too. Because I think not that my wife and I are perfect, but you know, she's the only woman I've ever loved. We have a great relationship just because she's actually one of the best Christians I know.

SPEAKER_00 33:19

She really is. No, I I told her that when I was just here doing the thing with her. I'm like, I need to hang out, hang out with her. In fact, I'm having coffee with her after because she needs to rub off on me.

SPEAKER_01 33:27

She's like a real Christian, right? If she says she's praying for her, she really is. I know.

SPEAKER_00 33:31

It's more than the emoji, more than sending the emoji. She's actually praying.

SPEAKER_01 33:34

But it's like if the enemy can't divide so health things, right? She she struggled with uh severe arthritis, right? So it's kind of like the attack there. And I lost my dad in 2019, too. And I think he he was my hero as like, you know, the emotion of I I look back at these moments and it I don't, it's not circumstantial that every time you're taking ground, there's spiritual warfare. There there just is, right? Yeah. But I think it's not just finishing, but but you know, and this is something I encourage you with, you know, it's just, you know, it's it's finishing still with the good spirit.

SPEAKER_03 34:13

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 34:14

Still loving people. And that's what I love about you and Philip. Life-giving, hope-filled, you know. I mean, we could probably sit here and debate multiple theological topics, and I think theology matters, but I think today, kindness and humility and compassion and these these uh our word for the as a church this year is fruitful.

SPEAKER_00 34:37

Oh, there's a thought. And I'm just like, Yes.

SPEAKER_01 34:39

I would like a little less talk.

SPEAKER_00 34:41

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 34:42

And a little more fruit.

SPEAKER_00 34:43

Oh, you mean like love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithless, gentleness, self-control, those? Oh, yeah. Let's do that. Those are I think you're I'm so glad that you brought that up because I think that's what we forget. We think it's about, and I feel like again, in Instagram ha has become everybody's theology source, which please stop. Let me just say that please stop. Um that and so nobody's diving deeper or looking deeper, but they're that's where they're getting their theology, and they forget that we actually two things like we actually win the loss by how we love each other.

SPEAKER_01 35:15

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 35:15

Right? Not by how much theology you know or the Bible you carry or what church you go to. Exactly. It's about how do you love each other. They're gonna know we're Christians. That's right. Jesus said about how we love each other, right? And and so we can't even do that. Like we can't even do that. And then we think we can love our enemies. We like we can't even love each other. Exactly. So I think that's what sh changes communities and churches if we can get great. Yes. Loving. Just love people and love.

SPEAKER_01 35:42

And the goodness of God leads people to repentance, right? So it's like it's and and that's the thing too. We fight not against flesh and blood because I've had to. I'm speaking to me. Like, Lord, I want I want a spiritual perspective because I can I can fight in the flesh with the best of them, right? Like I don't understand rules of engagement, you know. So I'm just like, you know, it's like, but we're not fighting with the weapons of the flesh, right? So so we that that is really the challenging part is to go to war, but fight it in the spirit and still maintain that soft heart, that you know, that that that I'm saying that's been my battle. The last several years has been the enemy wanting to get me frustrated, get me discouraged, get me, you know, believing, well, what you do doesn't matter. Like that's not really what is to, you know, that isn't today. Let me just say, there's some stuff that transcends all culture all time, like what you're talking about, right?

SPEAKER_00 36:47

And I think, you know, like we eat just like one of the greatest qualities too that we can have is be curious about people.

SPEAKER_02 36:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:56

Yeah. Jesus asked, you know, this over 300 questions, and it wasn't because he didn't know the answer.

SPEAKER_02 37:00

Right. Right.

SPEAKER_00 37:01

He's trying to engage. And so I feel like sometimes we step into situations and we are we like tell people as opposed to going, huh, how did you get to that conclusion? Or

Mentoring Leaders With Real Honesty

SPEAKER_00 37:10

what do you think about this? Or how do you feel? Ask some questions that engages people as opposed to tell you know, talking down to them.

SPEAKER_01 37:17

So what do you what do you now? So you've stepped into a different season. Yes. I'm brandy and our grandparents too, which is phenomenal. That's the best. My grandkids were over yesterday, so hanging out, and um, you know, just she had to bathe them because she had taken on a McDonald's and she thought they absorbed every germ in the place. Yeah. So they were with me in the diapers, watching, you know, I'm getting caught back up on my car on my cartoons and stuff. Perfect. Getting getting back into that place. But in this new season, what are what are you excited about? Or what it what's really fueling you? Like when you when you're looking kind of ahead right now, you're like, hey, here's what I'm, you know, what what what are you some of which you've been doing, but what do you what what's kind of stirring in you? What are you excited about right now?

SPEAKER_00 38:03

Um well I do love the church. So I love that God entrusts me to be in different churches and see and speak into things and just see. So I love building the church. I love the beautiful diversity. I spend a lot of time out of the country as well. Right. And so just seeing what God is doing, I love that. What he's doing around the world is spectacular.

SPEAKER_02 38:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:28

You know, sometimes we can get so caught up in our own nation that we forget that the bigger part of the church is actually outside of our country.

SPEAKER_02 38:35

True.

SPEAKER_00 38:35

And so just to see what God is doing is breathtaking. So I love that I, you know, I I've been able to do that. And then I am pretty intentionally mentoring people. So I started uh something that I call a circle of 12 and just taking 12 pastor chicks at a time. And uh I've been doing that for about six years now. So that's cool. And I love that um because I'm I understand the impact that I'm being able to have in the church, then doing that.

SPEAKER_02 39:02

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 39:02

So I love that because it's it's what I just said. It's teaching people to stand and to fight and don't quit and don't give up and make it more than the platform, you know. So I love I love that I'm you know able to do that.

SPEAKER_01 39:14

So I we just started the last couple of years lead to win. We started having our annual gathering, but then I started that the last couple of years where we have people request and you know, we have out there, you know, lots of people that that say, hey, I want coaching or development. So we come. We kind of we kind of take in inquiries and we've had a lot of a lot of of them have been sponsored, right, to to come and be a part of it, or people will suggest or recommend. But Steve Robinson and I will take a handful of pastors every year, and we've we've basically developed about 10 plays. Here's what I really believe. So if I go with Philip and Holly, there there's there's gonna be things we share. I think we share a lot of stuff. There's a lot more than when we started, there's a lot more pragmatic help, right? So we got a lot of shared plays. Yes, but I drew I believe when you go to certain places, you go to a a church of the highlands, or you go over here to Saddleback or wherever it is, right? There's an impartation, right? And so what I what I like to say is I want to give you a year just to give you the impartation of some of the things that we believe we can offer to you. And so we kind of walk them through some of those prep plays, do a retreat, and help them define what their biggest barriers are and try to resource them past that big barrier. But what I find is a lot of leaders and pastors, they go hang out in these settings and there's lots of inspiration. But one of the things I found that I can help them most is with is helping them with the execution of it. So I have a team and we kind of help them. Like if you want to say, I want to get 50% better at my assimilation, which is one of the things we do really well, is just help people get connected in church.

SPEAKER_03 41:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:02

But help you really, I mean, you know this. You get in there, you're excited, you have a meeting, and then nine months from now, you're like, now what happened? What happened in that meeting?

SPEAKER_00 41:11

What happened in that meeting?

SPEAKER_01 41:12

Did we make any you know help them measure, help them help them a lot?

SPEAKER_00 41:16

One of the things that we do with been mentoring these women is that I will we do a retreat as well, and I bring a trauma counselor in.

SPEAKER_02 41:22

That's good.

SPEAKER_00 41:23

And so because I'm not gonna put up with the like the fake face, right? Because I feel like we can go to conferences and put on this face, and inside your marriage is a mess. You have a child that's struggling with something, or there's addiction there's stuff happening and you can't tell the truth. Right. So we're gonna get real and get clean and get honest right here, so that we can go from somewhere.

SPEAKER_01 41:44

And where does that person, your minister? That's so amazing you're doing that, because where do they feel like they have a place? And they have had, I mean, those things, what you just described, those are traumatic things going on, right? Right. And so how do where do you go? So amazing, thank God for you doing that for them.

SPEAKER_00 42:01

Because and because I started thinking, what do I wish I had had? Right, you know, when I was in those early years of ministry, what I wish I'd had, like like a spiritual mom. Yeah, somebody to love me and challenge me. And then then a group appears that I could tell the truth to.

SPEAKER_02 42:14

Right.

SPEAKER_00 42:14

Right. And so I just and I I just can't do fake. I lived in the city of fake for too long, so I can't do it. Right. So I'm just like, we're gonna be real. And um, and I just think that helps set people up better.

SPEAKER_01 42:25

It's so, it's it's so powerful too for them to have because I've seen this in our like the development groups I do. The simple reality of them having even a few peers text them and say, We're praying for you today, or you're walking into that meeting. Right. That's so wonderful. Man, that's a game changer.

SPEAKER_00 42:42

And I think like um, you know, back back to talking about hard. So it's just like normalizing. So nor so I tell some of my story, so then it's normalizing the hard. And do you know, like we we know the story of the caterpillar. Like if you help that caterpillar, if you helped him get out of that cocoon, he wouldn't

Manage Your Soul And Your Rhythms

SPEAKER_00 43:00

never be a butterfly. Right, right. And so our nature is to want to protect and shield people from the hard.

SPEAKER_01 43:06

The chick pecking out of the egg, right? The pecking out of the egg. You have to do it. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:10

And so I just feel like normalizing the struggle a little bit is really important. And I think sometimes we want the end results. They look at like your life or my life, and people say, I want that. I'm like, well, okay, great. Then here's what you do. You you serve, you lead that Kinect group. I mean, these are all the things I did. I taught children's ministry with, you know, squeaky chairs and a puppet named Winston, right? I just like sweating in the back auditorium, right? So you do those things. You write, you know, I've written books. You I wrote them in the middle of the night when my kids were little, because that's the time I had. Right. But so I there was no scratching of that cocoon. I had to actually do the work.

SPEAKER_01 43:48

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 43:49

Right.

SPEAKER_01 43:49

So can I ask you a really crazy question? Because this is when, okay. Do you ever remember, not that it wasn't hard, but do you ever remember going, I deserve better? Or I I mean, did you generally though kind of feel like not that you ever said what's hard is is easy and this is great, but was there a general sense of man we're we're doing the deal? Like, I mean, did you generally find yourself excited though about what was going on? Yes, I I would assume you did. I did. Or you don't normally make it, right? Because I mean, I always just I tell a lot of our college students stuff and go, the great ones just love the game.

SPEAKER_00 44:28

They just love, they just they just kind of and you don't win every Sunday, you don't win every year. Yeah. There are some years that are really really hard. And you just by finishing it, you go, I I let's go. You lose ground. Like crawling over the finish line. Um yeah, I I I just remember even those really, you know, the hard seasons, just um being grateful for that I was a part of something bigger than me. Yeah. You know? So and that and that God trusts us to labor with him. I'm like, what?

SPEAKER_01 44:59

Yeah. And I think there's something in that that you were like, children's church, this. There there's like a I kind of love it all. Like that's kind of what makes it exciting is we could be talking about animal crackers or a million-dollar building or a uh, you know, uh a note in a song. That's right. It kind of makes it fun. It does. You know, but I find too today there's a messaging, you've hit on them. A lot of messaging of you can have it all, you can have it now, you can have it fast. Yeah. And then I think there's the other one that I keep running into is there's this perfect niche purpose. There's this this this perfectly tailored, you know. Like, I mean, you know, you should have been able to work at the church just as an actress.

SPEAKER_00 45:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:41

And just every Sunday do a skit, and that'd be enough.

SPEAKER_00 45:44

Doesn't work like that. Doesn't work like that.

SPEAKER_01 45:48

We actually have a staff position for you, Holly, to do acting.

SPEAKER_00 45:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:53

That's all you have to do. Study a script and then perform it.

SPEAKER_00 45:56

And then perform it. Perfect. Yeah. No. Yeah. I I think getting your hands, you know, messy in a lot of areas is is the treasure of the whole thing. It is. When we when we're when I when we let our try to use our gift to demand something, I think that's you're stepping into a pretty dangerous area.

SPEAKER_01 46:16

Yeah. So what would you say to somebody out there, just as we kind of wrap up, what would you say to somebody? They're in the middle of it, right? And they're kind of trying to make sense. I love that you said I didn't ask why, because I always counsel that because you're probably going to ask it, but you probably need to dismiss it pretty quick, because even if you got the answer, it probably wouldn't change much, right? So I think that's good advice. But like what would you say to them? You know, like if you were doing a mentoring uh moment with maybe one of these leaders, you know, what what would you say to somebody out there? They just kind of feel like pressure, anxiety, worry, can't sleep. What would you say to them?

SPEAKER_00 47:01

Um that you're you're kind of normal, right? That we there are moments when we all feel like that.

SPEAKER_03 47:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:10

That overwhelmed. I I feel like uh overwhelmed was normal to be and in a way it is because we're it's a big vision, right? If I can't accomplish everything without God, then what am I doing? Right? So it's a big vision. There's always gonna be this gap. Right. So the overwhelmed part, um, I would just say about the um that it is pretty important to to just manage your own soul.

SPEAKER_02 47:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:36

I I think in here's my little theory that um we're a spirit, soul, and body, we know that, right? And for everything uh we get three votes. And our spirit always votes the way of God, always.

SPEAKER_02 47:50

Right.

SPEAKER_00 47:50

Our flesh almost always does not.

SPEAKER_02 47:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:54

And so our soul is the swing vote. And I think if our soul is damaged, then it votes the way of the flesh, and if it's healthy, it votes the way of the spirit. So we have to manage our soul. Yeah. And so I think sometimes in these really hard seasons we go through, we have to manage our soul. We have to manage our emotions, we have to manage our mind. And take a look at what's happening here.

SPEAKER_02 48:12

Right.

SPEAKER_00 48:12

Um, it's about being whole. And so I feel like in sometimes in today's culture, this whole um self-care has become selfish. It's become very self-focused. And that's not that's not what I'm talking about.

SPEAKER_01 48:23

Right.

SPEAKER_00 48:24

I'm talking about managing the soul that you have that God's given you.

SPEAKER_01 48:28

For most of us, I would say this about you, and even for me, we were later to the game in that. Like it it began to be so many people were struggling. We were kind of late to it. And I I started getting coaching to help me with you know, my energy bucket and my soul bucket and my this, and kind of started having to think about because every every leader overestimates, right? And you end up over your skis and you're like, okay, you know down a hill power.

SPEAKER_02 48:55

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 48:56

And there, you know, there's an overwhelming nature to it by nature, because it's an overwhelming supernatural God that's leading all of this. But I agree with you. I think you have to start also developing your own rhythms and knowing your own soul and calculating what you can say yes to and a whole host of stories.

SPEAKER_00 49:12

And I think what adds to it is then we compare the comparison piece. Right. So then people are comparing somebody else's, like they've been pastoring a church for two years, and their church has a thousand people. I've been pastoring for two years, and ours has thirty. And you know, our church Oasis Church stayed small for a decade.

SPEAKER_01 49:28

I mean, we stayed 300 people, and then all of a sudden, it, you know, things were the big thing is I think one of the the tag, like when I way back, this was not the fastest growing, right? So that began a that began to be a target. It's just the fastest growing. Well, I mean, if that's what God does, okay. But cancer grows fast too, right?

SPEAKER_00 49:48

Yeah, and so miss your belly if you eat too many bad things. So yeah. Not that that's always the right thing to say.

SPEAKER_01 49:54

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 49:54

But I feel like there becomes this pressure. So to your you know, question, I think this normalizing that a little bit of the overwhelming part, but then taking a look at your own soul and the rhythms of your life. And and if you if you can't take a vacation, then you have set it up wrong.

SPEAKER_02 50:10

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 50:11

Right. If you can't take some days off, then it has been set up wrong because you're thinking that the church revolves around you and it actually doesn't.

SPEAKER_01 50:19

Which is part of what God's after. Right. I was sharing this as well with this young leader. I was like, for me, it was actually this is so prideful that when I actually developed the rhythm and took off, the church actually kind of did better in that season. And it's kind of like God's like, hey, just so you know, I got this.

SPEAKER_00 50:36

I got this. I know.

SPEAKER_01 50:38

Isn't it so kind of prideful and selfish that you actually think, oh, I've got to balance all these balls because I'm really the one making this thing hold together. God has a way of showing you.

SPEAKER_03 50:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:48

Of course, he uses leadership, but I thank you for sharing that message. And have fun.

SPEAKER_00 50:53

I just sorry, I just think you have to enjoy this journey. Yeah. Because otherwise you create a culture that's just like negative and heavy and oppressive. And no, let's let's make it fun. Let's reward the people that try stuff. Yeah. I mean, sometimes like even in our staff meetings, we would reward the wins. We would talk about wins, reward the wins, but let's stop that. Let's reward the youth guy who tried something and it didn't work, but he tried something. He tried, yeah. Let's let's let's have fun with this.

SPEAKER_01 51:19

I like that. That we're working on like our value, we're working at a deeper level on like our staff values. And so they were just asking me that. And I was like, can I just be like kind of base level honest here? For me, I kind of look a lot of times at the team and go, You having fun? Are we having fun yet? Now I know yesterday was tough, and you know, we got a karate kick to the you know, we got we got a deviating, but hey, are we having fun? No, you know, because if you if if you're not having fun with me, that's gonna be a problem. Yes, you know, because we can overcome a lot if we're just like, man, hey, enjoy the journey.

SPEAKER_00 51:52

We're enjoying it.

SPEAKER_01 51:53

Yes, yeah, we're living it now.

SPEAKER_00 51:55

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 51:55

And we we we started out talking about, you know, we're getting old, we're the old people. Because I went to the movies with my daughter and it was a Michael Jackson movie, and nobody in the theater knew who he was.

SPEAKER_00 52:06

Yeah, we are the old people.

SPEAKER_01 52:09

But I think when you get a little bit older, you you realize when all of those people used to tell me it goes by fast, it really does, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_00 52:17

Yeah, like the days are long, the years are fast, right?

SPEAKER_01 52:19

It's true. It is true. So you want to enjoy the journey.

SPEAKER_00 52:21

Yeah, enjoy it. That I that's one thing I say all the time. Have enjoy this journey, enjoy this moment that you have with God to build his kingdom.

SPEAKER_01 52:29

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 52:29

How

Enjoy The Journey And Closing

SPEAKER_00 52:30

amazing is that?

SPEAKER_01 52:31

Thank you so much for coming. Uh, thank you. Thank you for being here.

SPEAKER_00 52:34

You guys are awesome. I'm honored. Awesome.

SPEAKER_01 52:36

I want to say thank you for checking out this episode of the Lead to Win podcast. I want you to know that I love and my team loves getting this kind of content into your life so it can help you lead and win at what matters most. So I'd love for you to do me a favor, like, comment, especially subscribe if you would, so that we can make sure that we're able to get to you some of the things that are gonna help you lead to win.