Chris Hodges on Passion, Purpose, and Personal Growth

0:00 You're making your decisions based on who's speaking into your life. Now, think about that, that's true. And so, and all of us really are making our daily decisions based on the names that we've allowed to be written on our hearts. If you can tell me the names who've impacted your life, I can tell you the type of decisions you're making. I want to welcome you to the Lead to Win podcast today. I have my good friend, Chris Hodges here at the Lead to Win podcast today. I have my good friend, Chris Hodges here at the Lead to Win podcast. We love to talk about what it means to win in the areas that matter most, and I can't tell you how excited I am to have you here, Chris. It's just an amazing time for us to talk.

0:40 We're actually spending the day together and you're helping me. We're going to have some meetings with teams and I thought, man, we just need to let what we do we do it all the time Talk on the phone. You know, at different things we actually love to hang out together, do different other things outside of church over the years. But I thought what the power of a podcast is. Someone's driving down the road or has an opportunity. They could just join in with our day and get in on it. I have a young leader say all the time they wish they could be a fly on the wall of some of the conversations I have with different people, and podcasts kind of give you that opportunity. So here we go. Okay, here we go Well. I think a lot of people know who you are.

1:23 That maybe is tuning into a leadership podcast, but I think there could be people out there that maybe do not Again. I love you as a friend, but I also really respect you for what God has done through your life and you continue to point us to your favorite thing. If you were to be right now, it being introduced to speak would be. You know, let's give all the praise to Jesus. I appreciate that, but he, jesus, I'm preaching through the book of Colossians right now, and and and. There's this principle it's Christ in you, right, it is all about Christ, but he uses these, these earthen vessels, right?

2:10 So, um, highlands church of the highlands, uhlands planted. I remember way back meeting you there on the property of Grant's Mill. I don't know if you remember that you had like a Honda Accord. We were driving around that thing, baby blue, honda Accord, little baby blue. What was I thinking? What were you thinking? Yeah, you never really been into cars that much. So I'm not a car person at all. So 2001, church of the Highlands and 26 locations now across Alabama and Georgia, all of the Department of Corrections facilities. Yeah, so that's an amazing thing, and it is really interesting that at the time you and I are talking about this, you recently turned over the leadership of Highlands to.

2:53 Mark Pettis, and now you're the papa, as you said, and the founding pastor. You're still around and you're still a part. Still on the team. Still on the team. The way I say it is. I'm in the family, with a different role. Still in the family, with a different role. Still in the family, with a different role. You don't want to kick grandpa out of the family. I mean, he's got candy. They're the best. My grandparents were my favorite people in our family. I mean it you ask that question to a lot of people and say, like, who's your favorite person ever? 90% of the time they're going to mention a. And now I get to play that role in our church, so I'm loving it, and I recently became a grandparent. So there's, as you say, the reason that role is so loved is we don't have all the responsibility we used to have, but we have.

3:34 Usually we're wealthier, you know, because we're old enough now to have paid off some things right. So we're wealthier and we have tons of wisdom. And that's the beauty of it is that you know you want, you want the odor around. But I think sometimes you know, honestly, some of the decisions and the leadership and the vision is really for some of the younger like I don't have the energy right now for Tammy and I. I don't. I'm so grateful Tammy's never going to get pregnant again. You know I don't really have the energy for that again, but it's amazing how our 20 somethingsomething and 30-something kids do. And. I think in some ways that's true in ministry too. Yeah, and Mark is dreaming about some campuses and birthing new things. But I also want to talk about, in 2011, this birthing of something that is very near and dear to your heart Highlands College.

4:20 Highlands College, this America's really premier college for leadership and ministry setting, and there's just been so many miracles, from the facilities to the things that have happened there. I mean, I told you this, you know Highlands hundreds of millions of dollars worth of properties but, more importantly, all the souls and the lives and the people. But just how God's blessed. But when I walk on that Highlands College campus like it's overwhelming at some level it's something special. It really is. You couldn't. You couldn't create it and you couldn't recreate it. I mean, it's just, it's one of those things where God got involved and when I tell the story, I'm still shaking my head and saying how did this happen?

5:06 You know, and it's truly a miracle, pastor Jeff, and I'm just, I'm really grateful to God and something very special is happening there, you know it's. I taught a religion class at the Air Force Academy when I was a youth pastor in Colorado Springs. Tammy and I lived there seven years. We had our first three of our five kids were born in Colorado, and so it was that stage of life and the Air Force generals and all asked me if I would come teach a religion elective and it was a nighttime class and I had a great time. But I got bit by this model, you know, because it's a four-year university. So a lot of you don't know that, that our West Point, annapolis and air force academy are four-year universities, just like every other university, except right.

5:49 It has three other curriculums on top of that academic curriculum yeah there's an entire character formation curriculum. Uh, I mean, it could be a school just for that. There's that much to it. And then there's all this military training yeah you know where they're going to class for three hours and then they're jumping out of airplanes in the afternoon. You know they're four years of military training and for them it's physical development. And we took that model and said well, what would it be like to be the first Christian university in America and we are to build a ministry training academy like those academies? And so we kept two of those four and we changed two of the four.

6:30 We kept, of course, academic instruction and character formation, but instead of military training we have ministry training and our students graduate check this out, jeff with 800 hours of experience in their degree field on the day they graduate. That's the game changer. Yeah, it really is. So they're not going to have to go after college and learn how to do it. They've already done it 800 hours worth. And then, of course, instead of physical development, which we have physical development, but we have a whole pillar around their spiritual development. So it's a holistic cadet mindset. It's the first of its kind in America and it's just with the passion of honestly training up the next generation of full-time Christian leaders. That's so amazing. And ministry is an apprenticeship model, so that training, of course the academic training, is important and the parents want their kids to get a real degree.

7:19 So Highlands College is accredited. Four-year bachelor's degree. Four-year bachelor's degree. But really, at the end of the day, you learn ministry from the people you do it with Exactly. And so it's an apprenticeship. It's a complete mentoring environment, in fact, even for the academic side. Check this out they come to class having already studied the material and listened to the lecture before they come to class. So most times you come to class, listen to a lecture and then you go home and do homework. So we flipped that where they actually listen to the lectures before they come to class and the homework's in the classroom. And it's a collaborative. Yes, it's discussion and mentoring, and so. Because ministry is a team sport. Yeah Right, and you learn your best stuff at being able to ask questions not just listening to lectures, you know.

8:04 So I mean that's amazing and I'm excited about. I mean we partner with you. Yeah, thank you for that too, by the way. It's a blessing to the body of Christ because, I agree with your emphasis right, and that is there's a lot of people praying for God to do something and we know he moves in unique ways, but Jesus said we're not waiting for this harvesting, and that's not three or four months. Here we the fields are ripe with harvest and jesus's prayer, we need laborers. So yeah, that's, that's why I call it the greatest problem in the world to solve. So I know that's pretty arrogant to think. You know the thing I'm involved in is the most important. But I make the case that it doesn't matter what your pet charity or cause is.

8:47 You have to have people to do it. At the end of the day, it's still going to take leaders to do it. So this is the you know. I like to think this is the place where the leaders are being trained for everybody's causes and everybody's you know thing that they love and feel called to, and the verse you're quoting is our driving force. The harvest is plentiful, the labors are few. It was true 2,000 years ago, it's true right now. In fact it's so epidemic, jeff and I want to make sure all the podcast listeners hear this, especially the pastors and leaders that there's an estimation by Barna that in the next 15 to 20 years we're going to have half the Christian leaders that we currently have in America. It's going to go down 50%.

9:28 So I say, imagine an America with half the people that are in church work or in ministry. We don't have enough now. We don't have enough now. So that's epidemic and I'm going to tell you, it could easily put us into like a post-Christian era if we're not careful, which is why thank God for universities like Highlands College. Honestly, we need a hundred more like it, but every pastor needs to be mentoring someone and pouring their lives into the next generation. Yes, absolutely, and so that emphasis on equipping leaders has always been a focus and a passion of yours, and so also grow leader. You know pastors helping the church, helping the body of christ do you even know the story? how that that began?

10:09 no okay. So of course we me and my buddies, you know started the association of related churches, arc and um. There were seven of us that started this to plant new churches and at that time this was, you know massive need we were. I think there was a net loss of 3 000000 churches a year in America when we started and then the churches that were being planted only about 20% to 40% were succeeding, if you call success, but they were still viable after five years, so they just never worked. And then so, when we started helping plant churches, we've actually got that success rate up to 97%. By the way of successful church plants, which has been amazing, we planted over 1,100.

10:50 Anyway, all these pastors that we train in these ARC church planter conferences and roundtables, pastors who already had churches were coming and I kept telling them this is not for you, man, we're trying to plant churches. They say but we but we want this information too, and it dawned on me, thank God, we had this for new churches, but we need something for existing churches right and then that's when, in uh same year, 2011, I started Grow Leader, that that its focus. Honestly, it actually began with people who could not reach their they couldn't get past their growth barriers specifically churches under 1,000. And I felt like I heard God say help 1,000 churches under 1,000, break 1,000.

11:33 Now, I don't think there's some magical, that's not a magical number. I remember when you did that. But if we could do it, that's a million people you could touch. That's amazing. And so we thought you know what? Let's help the little guy, let's help the guy that's frustrated, that thinks you know that they have more potential than they're currently experiencing their churches and man, I've had more fun for the past. What is it now, 14 years? It's been so impactful. I mean there's churches everywhere that have been resourced and helped. And you know, because I've been a pastor since I was 21 years old, I have a heart for pastors and I think a lot of people don't understand that a lot of times there's a lot of sincerity and there's a, there's a pure heart and spirituality and spiritual and there's spiritual people.

12:15 A bunch of them pray way more than I do. They love God, but they they just just a little bit. I love helping pastors because a little bit goes a long way. Exactly, just a little bit of encouragement, a little bit, and I want us to spend some time talking about a phrase and a concept. You spoke about it recently, but I do also. I think it's important for people to understand your father-in-law, billy Hornsby, by the way. Who was he and I hunted together. You could not not love Billy Hornsby. I mean, just one of his funeral. I mean this was like and I tell Tammy this all was an impartation for me, like a life just truly there to say I just want to help people, I want to serve people.

12:58 But but even the arc I think people miss. The arc is a facilitation, a resourcing and a training to facilitate church planting Right and people miss that a lot. They think it's a denomination. They think it's a government. It's not governmental. I call it a subcontractor. It's a subcontractor. Yeah, we'll install your windows, but it's your house. Yeah, you know what I'm saying. We just know how to do church planning, but it's your church and every church that we help plant. They're all self-governed and we think governance should happen locally. So we don't want to. We don't want to. I think a lot of people get confused by that because they're thinking that it's something that it's not.

13:39 Yeah, and I think the fact we have 1100 more churches that have been planted, that's a positive thing. But I think the grow leader side is getting into now. Hey, help equip you, and that's a resourcing as well. But I wanted us to spend just a few moments talking about this phrase. You need models and you need mentors. Your recent podcast that you just did, you talked about that. You and I were together last week. We were talking about this concept models. I want to push that one to the side a little bit. I think there's maybe more models or more practicals out there. The truth is, every church is a model.

14:20 It is a model. It just depends on if that's the one you want to model after. So you think about worship style, children's ministry how we do our foyers, whatever. You've got to go places and say now I like the way this is done and you've just got to find the pattern, so to speak, of how you're going to do it, yeah. So what's the best model? The one that works? Yeah, and it has to resonate within your own spirit. I always say you can never build a church that you don't like personally. It's so true you the day. So the worship is what I like. You know, the it's, yeah, that's how I see it, and, and, and I don't think that's a one-size-fits-all either. By the way, I think people need the different flavors in the body of christ. I think the body of christ is like that beautiful chest of ice cream flavors when you go to baskin robbins and there's 31 different, but then they're all good.

15:08 But everybody, everybody has a different preference and I and I don't mind that, I mean as long as it's true- to the tenets of our faith. It can have different expressions. And with there being so many models out there, the danger is is that you can see something, or now you can follow so many models. You can be like I'm going to grab that but it doesn't fit your context, right. My master's degree is in missiology. It means basically it's the study of how to reach people and you shape your context, but your context shapes you. So I live in Texas, I was born and raised in Texas, I understand some of the languages and the nuances and the music, and so I'm not going to have a worship service that fits the context of New York City Exactly Right, because I'm in that context.

15:51 So I do believe, as basic as that is, there could be a pastor or a youth pastor listening. You're following someone that you respect online, but what they do doesn't contextually fit with the people you're trying to reach. You got to know what fits and at the same time, there are some that are universal. There are, and you know the presence of God, the prayer, I mean. there are some things that do fit into every context, no question. And they're universal, even around the world, no question. And I think that's where you and Highlands there have been more of some of those models, Obviously the Bible and the presence of God.

16:32 Of some of those models, obviously the Bible and the presence of God, but I'm talking even about just the nuance of being life-giving and loving people and the outreach Like one of them, I think is too. it's like are we going to be a church that wins people that are far from God? If you say, oh no, we're not. We just we have a church for Christians, I would argue that's not. That's not one where you get to have your own flavor there, because I think there's a mandate from Jesus himself, exactly Called the Great Commission, that told us hey, I need you to go reach people. So there are some things that it can look differently, but they're still based on some real, solid principles that I think are not even ours. They're biblical, they come from the one that we've sworn our lives to. I love it, I mean.

17:13 I'm a fisherman. Yeah, there's no golfers in the Bible. Okay, well, that's right. But I mean I love that when Jesus comes to his disciples, you know, and they they've been fishing, you know, and there's not a lot of people don't like fishing because they've never been with anyone that catches any. You know what I mean. And he's like y'all catching anything and you can kind of hear the tone of the story. They're almost like aren't you a rabbi, or something you know you're trying to talk to us about fishing. We're pro fishermen, you know you throw the net and you know the story. But I ask a lot of. I'll maybe be invited to do a staff meeting and I ask them Jesus question, you, you guys, catching any? Are we catching any? Because, that's not out of context.

17:54 He ends the story by saying you now will fish for people. That's right, and so I think that is a major decision about your focus. Are we going to be a place where lost people can come to know? Jesus. Christ. I mean it's such a big deal, but I want to put models over here to the side, because you and I we're going to today be talking about structures and systems and things and all of that. We could get trapped in that. I want to talk about mentors because I think that there's a lot more people that would say if I had Chris Hodges as my friend, I would be better off, or if I had whoever it is out there, right, and we're not exalting people above Jesus, but Jesus uses people.

18:47 And Moses had Aaron. You know David had Jonathan. Elijah had Elisha Paul had Aaron. You know David had Jonathan. Elijah had Elisha Paul had Timothy. I mean Timothy, they say, may have pastored the largest church at that time. I've heard scholars say 50,000 people and you could say, well, timothy could have done that without Paul but he didn't. Yeah, he didn't yeah. I don't know. I mean he had some spiritual aunts and grandmothers. No, it's very biblical for us to have these relationships in our life. It's very biblical Very very biblical, Very biblical. Even the priests had that breast piece that they wore and it had the names of the tribes of Israel over their heart, and it was called the breast piece of decision.

19:27 In other words, you're making your decisions based on who's speaking into your life. Now, think about that. That's true and so, and all of us really are making our daily decisions based on who, the names we've been allowed, that we've allowed to be written on the on our hearts, and so I think, who's speaking in your life, who who's mentoring you, either up close or from afar? If you can tell me the names who've impacted your life, it's I could tell you the type of decisions you're making. So it's a critical, critical decision. It's so true, I mean. I recently preached a message talking about who are you listening to? Because who you listen to you're a grandpa, you're a dad, you're a pastor Bottom line.

20:08 When you see one of your kids or people you love going off, your first question is who's been talking to you? What are you listening to? Show me your friends, I'll show you your future, 100%, absolutely. And that's the power of podcast and we have access to good content. But going back to my original thing, I think there's a lot of people that would be like I want somebody with wisdom, I want somebody that's been there. I want somebody with wisdom, I want somebody that's been there.

20:55 I want somebody in my life and they're kind of like, how do you get that? Like, okay, I'm supposed to have a mentor, can you call mentor? You know, is the so. So you're a mentor to me, you're a older brother to me, you're a friend to me. Like what, what, what could we share? You've had amazing mentors in your life, right? Your, your, your pastor, your you know John Maxwell's a mentor to you. He's expanded your leadership. I mean, what would you say to somebody out there that goes you know, I really want that, but I don't have it? I think a lot of guys are waiting for it to come to them. And I think you've got to go to it. Yeah, I think you've got to pursue people. I think you have to lower the expectation on some of them, like some of them you're really never going to get really close to. I've had people that they've never allowed me to be very, very close to them that I still learn from.

21:38 I watch their messages and watch their leadership and lean in as much as I can. But there's others you can get close to. I'll tell you something no one hardly teaches or thinks about, and that is I think you have to think about what value can I bring to them, not just what value are they going to bring to me that's huge. Let's just pause right there. That's huge, because when I was pursuing John Maxwell actually the first it's a funny story the first time I actually pursued him he had kind of blew me off and it didn't discourage me I thought over my dead body. That's not going to happen. You're going to notice. Notice me, and so I started going to all these events, our church started investing in his non-profit that was training leaders around the world yeah. I literally went to everything and all of a sudden they they noticed me like dude, you're here at everything yes, because I believe in this, and you're writing these checks yes, because I believe in this.

22:26 And about three years later I'm on the board of directors of this ministry. And even then John personally wasn't. I wasn really really close to him, but I just kept leaning in and asking questions. And then he finally came up to me one day and he said I don't do this for many people, but I'm going to give you an hour phone call every quarter of the year if you'll come prepared. I said, okay, there you go. And he wanted to pour into me. That was his way to kind of be a mentor. I thought, all right, here's my opportunity. So I would actually collect questions until I got about 20 really good questions and not just like, hey, what did you eat today? Because you can tell sometimes when people aren't even giving a valiant effort to be mentored by the questions they ask because they'll say things like oh, what was your greatest failure?

23:14 that's, that's a, that's a. I didn't know what. To ask you a question it's a good, it's a decent question, but you can just tell sometimes, right? No, I was coming in with like really hard stuff. I was dealing with that day, my kids, the church decisions I was trying to make, and when it got to 20, I texted his assistant, linda, and I said when John's ready, I'm ready. There you go. And he kept saying you're the most prepared person I mentor, you're most prepared. And what I'm trying to say to the listeners is you can't put it all on the mentor. I don't like the word mentee, by the way. It's on the protégés. It's the young Timothys. They need to be prepared, yeah, ready to go too, and so, yeah, I've enjoyed my coaching, um, mentoring relationship with you, but, brother, you're one of the most prepared people I've ever.

24:03 Like you, your team sends me agendas for the time we're going to spend together. Questions you want to talk about, problems you want to solve? I mean, there's, there's effort on both sides, and then I come ready to share, and that's what it has to look like. So, so I want to go back though, cause you actually you didn't you and I both grew up Baptist. You didn't have three points to that little message you just gave, but there were. There were a few points that are I want to go highlight, cause I was listening. Okay, the first thing is you believed in John's mission because he has a burning passion to reach lost people in a segment of the culture that a lot of people don't, whether it's international but business people. So that, aligned with your biblical worldview, your personal passion to see more people in heaven Right, to see more people in heaven.

24:51 But you also began to invest in and fuel both financial resources, but also then you began to give of your time to it, and so you began to say, hey, what rock are you trying to push for the kingdom? I want to get in behind that and let me just add to that this is a missing thing in the body of Christ amongst some pastors and leaders. Don't just build your thing Exactly. All of us need to build our thing right and build what God's called us to do. But we all need to look to like, hey, where can I support someone else? Where is something else I can do, where I'm not the big deal, I'm just going to pour my life into helping that become a reality, and we all need that.

25:32 That's it, that's this, and it'll reciprocate. It'll come back around to you in the most beautiful ways. But just man, just you know, find other things to be involved in this, not just yours. But. But I think, I think my, my thesis is that John Maxwell, fill in the blank of whatever name it is, somebody out there is listening. Maybe it's your pastor, maybe it's a business leader in your community, maybe it's a coach or whoever it is and you're like, or you don't even know that that person has quite appeared yet. This is not in the Bible, but it is a proverb. When the pupil or student is ready, the teacher will appear.

26:13 So there's also something in the heart that says I'm, I'm looking for that, but but when? When that happens? It's really this belief. John Maxwell has as much need to give what he has to Chris Hodges as Chris Hodges has to to receive it. I have, I have a lot of need for what you're giving me, but you have a lot of need to give it. Yeah, it fulfills you. No, it's a calling. Yeah, in fact, in some strange way, jeff, I enjoy helping other people's churches than even our own sometimes. I mean I just, I don't know what it is on the inside of me and it's, it is a calling, and there are. There are people out there who would love to be involved in the pastors that are listening right now.

26:56 They would love to be involved in their life and play that role 100%. Yeah, I mean, that's that really lead to win this podcast, our, our annual gathering, all of that is. I'm just like you, I mean I feel God's smile when I help another leader, help another pastor and so the most wind I have in my sails all year long is when I'm teaching at that Grow Conference in the last week of July. I mean. I just I feel more alive and that's that confirmation that God's putting, that, you know, as a calling on the inside of some people. So I think that you recognizing hey, I feel like I'm in a deficient position, but actually there's people there that really want to give you.

27:37 But then the second thing we keep hitting it you don't just sit and wait for that person, you begin to pursue that. You also don't come as just gimme, gimme, gimme. My name is Jimmy, which I, I think me and you were talking recently. It's a different day. A lot of people who criticize the things in the body of Christ don't realize there was a day where there just wasn't as much shared resource. We work together way better today than we do. Oh, way better. In fact, they would hide it from you Exactly Back in the day. They didn't want you to know their secrets. I mean, like I remember when I was a young pastor I transitioned from the denomination.

28:20 I went around. It was kind of like hey, just come join us in our misery. Like there was not these environments, where there's a bunch of pastors going hey, we don't have it figured out. No, there's a lot of collaboration. Whatever we got, we'll give it to you. It's a different day and it's a really beautiful, beautiful thing, right. So, however, with so much resource available, what can easily happen is it can stunt the growth of a generation of pastors who don't recognize. You know, at some point you don't just need to be receiving, you have to start learning how to give that away and sharing, and you know so. So I think that can be, uh. But the other thing you said is be coachable, right, like how.

29:01 That's a tough one. Now. That's a hard one, yeah, because a lot of guys are insecure, unfortunately, and so that when you say, hey, this wasn't done well or you need to fix this I have one guy I'm coaching right now he defends it every time. Yeah, but I don't, that's not me. Yeah, no, that's not you at all. But I mean he just defends it. He's almost offended when you say did you know that you did this or said this or you know whatever, and they would rather me come and not find anything. That's you know whatever, and it just like it just, and they would rather me come and not find anything. That's how you know. By the way, they would rather they want to. They don't even want you to come until they think everything's perfect, cause they don't want you to see what's not right.

29:42 Versus saying come find something Right, that's a secure leader would say that come find something. We're not doing well, that we just can't see because we've been in it so long. Well, when you have a, when you have a affirmation deficit and ministry is a terrible place to find your affirmation, it's rejection management. But I think if you, if you're looking for that affirmation, it's hard to get better because, really, if you, if you, if you're really wanting to get better, it's like I already know you love me. I already know. You already know you wouldn't be here if you didn't believe in me. So I remember a little while back it's like you came here, and so then I called you on Monday and I was like all right, what, what, what do you got?

30:25 Give me the list. Give me the list. And you were like that's why I love you. Then you said, hold on, let me go get my iPad. You pulled it up. You said I got 13 things. I was like, oh my gosh I mean, could it be two, Could it be three? It's 13 things but one. I appreciated the fact that you spent the time to evaluate those things. And then I mean I told you I'm like, well, I'm trying to get better, you know, and so you have to push down. By the way, we do this still at Church of the Highlands. Yeah, and I recently brought someone in and they had eight pages. Wow, yeah, they had. So it was more than 13 things. There you go Now. I didn't agree with two pages worth, but six pages were like okay, that's good, that's really.

31:09 It's really good Because you know why Time in erodes awareness of. That's so true the longer you're in something, the less you can see it, right. And somebody on the outside can Like. I always tell people your car has a smell. Now, I'm not talking about a bad smell. Your house has a smell. It's not a bad smell, but it has a smell that you can't because you live there, right, but somebody who's never been in your house. They smell it. And that's what you? you almost need that outside eye sometimes. The other technical term is cognitive dissonance. So our old building was behind Taco Casa. It was a grocery store and the air conditioning had like a I guess a screw loose. I mean, we'd had it for like three months.

31:50 I was just preaching through it, you know, and somebody came in and goes. Have you noticed your air conditioner? has. It must have driven me crazy. It must have driven me nuts, you know. So I think that's the power of saying okay, I know you love me, Just tell me what you see. And probably, by the way, not one of them. By themselves would make a big difference in the church, but when you find 20, little things and make a tweak of that turn to that screw to give the ministry engine a little bit more horsepower so we can do ministry more effectively. It makes a difference. Yeah, it really does. I think when I think about the mentors in my life, I think about even you and I recently, the things we're talking about.

32:31 I think there's permission. I think sometimes they see stuff you don't see, but sometimes they give you permission to do what you actually. They'll look at you and go you should do that. It's a little bit of confidence to go, yeah, that is and they'll press a little bit of confidence to go. Yeah, that is you know, and they'll press a little bit, you know. So it's, I think it's permission, but I also believe it's perspective. What the if I were, if someone had asked me just you and I and talking in church, because of where you? are and where it's. it's a, it's a vantage point. That's right, and if you'll allow your current perspective to be challenged, then you can be lifted to see it from a totally different.

33:14 It happened in our first meeting with you. A hundred percent. Where, just because we have 26 locations, I came in with faith for something Right and I remember you grabbing like. You grabbed the faith I was having for that and you're like like, yes, we could do this now and we started talking about multi-site here at Milestone and different things like that. Where were something that I saw your perspective change in a second but it but. But I not only brought in ideas, I brought in some faith for that and and I think that's a transference that can happen with these relationships you know, whatever you're defending, you can't change Exactly. And I'll be honest, you challenge the way I say it is. We're called to be students and not critics, and if you're critical, you'll actually criticize the ones that are doing something successful instead of learning from it and getting better yourself listeners, because actually I had gone down a pretty far path on a project that was too small for what God wanted to do.

34:15 But it was where my faith was and I was down the road Like I even leadership wise had already communicated it, and you were kind of like, no, this is a bad path. Well, I think sometimes as leaders, we're also like, well, I'm already vested in that path or I've already told people about that, or what am I going to look like? But if it's still not the best path, better to stop now and I want to just communicate to people out there, maybe where they do get a mentor or they hear something or it really changes their paradigm. You know what I believe. When you, when you, when you you humble yourself and say Lord, if that's not the best path, he supernaturally, like within a few months, provided a supernatural option that I could not see.

35:01 Yeah, and it was crazy. Yeah, a whole building already built on a on a main road, and I had this other thing. Building already built on a on a main road and I had this other thing. So I just think just that's the power of just being willing to say Lord, I'm open, you know, and and and, and. Let it let your paradigm shift. Well, I think that those are such good points and I think, if, if, if, we posture our heart, you know it's, it's, it's like everything in the kingdom, isn't it? It your heart, if you'll just have a have a good heart about it. I believe god wants to bring into people's lives the people that they need to take them to where he's called them to go, yeah. So I would encourage everyone in this listening, I mean pursue.

35:41 In fact, let me go this far to say you should probably even make it a line item in the church's budget for your own personal growth. Yes, because when you grow, the church is going to grow. Whenever you're getting better, the church is going to get better, and so this is something that I don't think people plan enough for their own personal growth. It just ought to be a part of the health of the church. Yeah, so the concept of winning, okay, and so last time I was on your podcast, we talked about my men's book Way to Win, and then this whole concept of helping people win Right when it matters most. I want us to close with one thank you for your encouragement with this, with pastors and what we're doing to help pastors, and you've always blown wind in my sails in that area, and so you can speak about that and then just talk about winning.

36:32 Like, what does it mean to win? What is winning really to you? yeah, I think winning begins with being able to define measurably, so not just theoretically or feel based like oh, we want more of the presence of god. Well, that's a little subjective. One person could be experiencing that and the next person, not Okay, that's more of a subjective goal, or okay and destination. But I'm talking about measurable wins, like what are the? What are the non-negotiable measurable wins? And I personally think, jeff, that we all have individual ones that God has called us uniquely to. Like, I don't think everybody's called to do a university, yeah, so that's something I'm measuring. I'm not Okay exactly, but then there are some that we are all called to Very true.

37:15 And it is that great commission Right. And so I will argue this to my grave that every church I don't care what style the church is should be winning laws, people, pastoring the people you win, discipling the people you pastor and mobilizing the ones you've discipled, exactly like there's. This is a very clear cover to cover old testament and new, and certainly made clear by jesus and all four gospels and the book of acts. Yes, that this is the assignment of local, of the local church. That's right is to evangelize, pastor, disciple and mobilize. It's there, okay. So all of those are measurable, every single one of them. So how are we winning? Are those things happening Right?

37:56 That's just it Right. And if we're not winning any people to Jesus, then we're not winning there. Yes, and so we have to say we're not winning here. What do we need to do to win? And I don't say do it the way we do it, I just say the right way. The right way is the one that's actually working. So if you're not winning people, what you're doing is not the right way. So you might. So you're saying you might evaluate okay, did we win any people to Christ last year? And you might be so brutal and so honest with your measurement that you say we're not funding anything in our budget that doesn't contribute to that. Or training our people, or talking about sharing your faith, or having specific Sundays that are more conducive for lost people to attend, just all of these type of things that go into here's one, for preachers are actually preaching on something that maybe is not your favorite thing, but actually it has to be biblical.

38:47 But maybe it meets the people where they're at and speaks the language of where they're at, I mean Jesus intentionally told stories that the common person could understand by telling all these parables. I mean, he didn't need to do that, he already had this understanding, but he was trying to become relatable. Paul in 1 Corinthians 9, I'll do anything to win people that are far from God. I'll become all things to all people. What was he saying? He wasn't saying I'm going to change my values, but I am going to figure out ways to communicate to people that are far from God, and we do this in all four of these areas. Are we pastoring people? Well, how are we going to measure that? For us, it's how many people are connected in relational small groups. Are we discipling people? Are we discipling people?

39:28 Are we helping them find their spiritual gift? We do it in the form of a growth track. Are we mobilizing? people. How many people are sitting in the seats just as spectators? Then how many get in the game? Become a part of the team. Become part of the team. That's all measurable. So those, to me, are the beginning point of how to define if we're winning or not so when we have several elements about winning right, winning at what matters and all that. But I want us to conclude with what you're hitting on, and one of the philosophies about winning that I talk about is winners. They're not overly scoreboard conscious, they want to do good.

40:09 They're really committed to measuring the right things, doing the right things. You you call it being committed to the process, right, and I think for people out there maybe that don't know you what. What makes you unique is you've brought us all into fasting and praying right 21 days of prayer and fasting. You're looking a little slimmer right now. okay, we just finished it. People ask how much weight I lost. I said it's not lost, I know exactly where to find it. So so on the one hand it's like prayer fasting, but on the other hand, knowing you personally, it's like very process. You know, here's, here's what we believe God's calls to do. We're going to take the right steps and we're going to measure and we're going to keep moving toward those things.

40:50 So I think a lot of times as pastors, you lean one way or the other. You may be a real process, but there's no life in it, you know. Or a lot of pastors speak and ministry leaders speak and they talk and they presence all this, but no one really knows what we're trying to do. And they talk and they presence all this, but no one really knows what we're trying to do. And so I'm thankful for what you've offered us. Some of those, those, those processes, grow track, you know small groups, but winning is about every day committing to the right things Right, and so the way I really frame it is I put it in three S's you know, there's structures that can impact the health of a church and therefore the outcomes and the things we're measuring.

41:34 So I'm talking about how we handle money, our governance, our doctrines, our values, these are just structural, but then you have the systematic. So this is services. How long are they? How many songs do we do? How well do we take care of kids? What are the four years look like? There's a whole systematic part and then there's the spiritual, and so all three are important, and every time we actually start helping churches, we're looking at which one. Is it that? Is the main culprit, by the way, Pastor Jeff, most of the times it is the system. So they're praying enough and they have great structures, but I know ones that have great systems and the structures aren't good True. Or they have great structures and systems but they're not really in love with God and there's not an anointing in the worship and there's some spiritual things missing or culture issues.

42:21 Every time all three are set in order. This is kind of a great, beautiful biblical truth that you can see, especially in the Old Testament, when all three things are set in order. Every time things are set in order. God's presence dwells right there, and I'm telling you there is blessing every time, every single time, yep. Well, I want to say thank you. Thank you for who you are, thank you for the encouragement, thank you for the faithfulness of us being at this season where you're stepping into your next. I'm very excited about your next season, highlands College. Thank you for the deposit that you have given to on behalf of pastors and leaders and ministry people, and just the deposit you've given all of us.

43:07 Thank you, my friend, you're a dear friend. Yes, so just thank you for being here today. We bless you, appreciate it, great time together.