#5 – Stupid Enough to Take It (DUST TO DUST, EXOGENESIS)

JOSH: [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to Last Best Hope, a Babylon 5 podcast where we talk about the show that we love and the world that we hate. Is that too strong a word? The world that we 

JOHN: Are worried for.

JOSH: Are worried for. Yeah. Yes. I'm Josh with me today, and CNC is.

JOHN: John.

JOSH: And today we're, uh, we've got a two for today. We're gonna be talking about two episodes, both from season three, Dust to Dust and also Exogenesis.

JOHN: Yeah. 

JOSH: Excuse me, listeners, I seem to have lost my voice, uh, we're just gonna roll. Said, I apologize if, the sound offends your ears or, uh, what have you, but, um, maybe just, uh, skip to the next episode. No. you know,

I was saying to you off air, Dust to Dust in particular, I remember the episode. I know what happens in it. But upon rewatching it, I was not expecting to have as much to say in relation to what is going on in our world right now, as I feel like there is to [00:01:00] say.

To start off, uh, what are your just general thoughts about this episode and do you remember, what you, how you regarded it, when you saw it, know, 30 years ago? And 

JOHN: Oh man, that time travel. I'll tell you. Um, the cool part about Babylon 5 is that it did leave such an impression, even when compared to other sci-fi shows that I still, I still feel like I get the echoes from what I. Watch it. I mean, that's one of the reasons why rewatch this show is because I had such feelings.

I had such curiosity about what was going on in the show and such an attachment to the characters and the environment they built around that, that that was the thing. This wasn't just a show about what happens to our ensemble cast. You really had a sense of what the broader world was like, and that's because this was a cohesive show.

Written by JMS. Um, other shows had to deal with countless writers coming in. No, no ongoing plot line. So everybody's always adding a little bit of lore to the, to the world as they went on. It was, it was sort of like building the train in front of you, tracks the train as you're going. This was, this was pre-constructed and you [00:02:00] see the world, um, that this one has.

And so the feelings get there. And, and, and by this point I remember feeling really uncomfortable. Like, oh, but they're not. really winning. Yet they, they don't, we, we discuss this in previous episode. They're not winning. By the end of every episode, there is a mini a and there a mini story in every episode, but they're, the challenges are ongoing and seemingly getting worse, and this episode starts off, boom.

Scene one. Right there. Uh, you know, I see you, you know what I'm talking about, and it's just so chilling. Is this shopkeeper is there in the station and is being harassed by one of Babylon 5 security team members for posting, uh, material that the Nightwatch and the Ministry of Peace views as seditious and offensive, um, and a store.

Ke was posting something about, you know, um, impeaching and removing the president that he accusing him of, uh, of, you know, of President Clark assassinating, President Santiago, because just previously that, that, you know, that more information had. Surfaced on [00:03:00] that. Um, and so what this showed us was that the, the suspicions amongst the Earth Alliance population were already there.

Like the stories have been getting out. The suspicions were there. People weren't just all in lockstep behind this authoritarian president, um, or, or president who was by this point very clearly authoritarian, but wasn't, you know, completely locked down yet. That's the ultimate threat. The ultimate threat is people who are still speaking out.

People who are still saying, Hey, the average, the average person, the shopkeeper saying, Hey, I don't, I don't, you know, I'm not going along with this and I'm gonna exercise my right of free speech there. Nightwatches and Captain Sheridan comes to rescue and classic hero mentality. I was even looking at the, the angle of the shot, the way they accentuate Sheridan's height.

And stature in that scene against the security officer who he has to like dress down in that moment. And the acting again, like sometimes you get these, uh, you [00:04:00] know, extras, the people who are, you know, day players for the show and they really do get into that. Or like his look of just like. You know, acknowledging the order he's just received from Captain to let go of this issue and to stop doing this repeatedly and, and, and, and harassing people for their free speech.

Um, and the expression of, yeah, but I do not agree with this, and if you weren't putting this leash on me, I would totally be doing more of this. Um, and it is Captain Sheridan to the rescue of this shopkeeper and you, you sort of like celebrate that opening scene, but you're left with the. Yeah, but he's still just a captain and the Nightwatch is bigger than him.

The ministry of Tru of, I wanna say Ministry of Truth. It is that too, the Ministry of Peace, is uh, is more powerful in, in many senses. And you, you're afraid in that moment. I was afraid. And, and I remember fe that's, that's the vague echo of a memory I have is that, that, that disquiet of, oh, this is how you silence people.

JOSH: Y [00:05:00] Yeah. You know, it's, it's, um, I noticed it as well 'cause in that scene, the security guard, he has the line.

I was just following orders, which, you know, that anyone writing that, I mean, even in the 1990s is a very loaded, phrase. and that, speaks to JM S's understanding of exactly what you were just saying. This is how you silence people. So the security guard, disagrees with the sentiment that the is expressing.

And normally in normal civil society, you have to tolerate. And allow that. but as soon as he's empowered to silence it, he will do so with relish.

JOHN: Mm. Good word.

JOSH: And I think, you know, we're seeing, unfortunately, we're seeing a lot of that play out, in this country right now. Um. there are so many things going on, including but not limited to the area of free speech where, you know, the people who are doing this [00:06:00] know that it's contrary to

ideals of this country, it's contrary to the law. It's contrary to the spirit of the law. They know it's wrong. But because they been empowered to do it how they want to do it, and they happen to agree with it, you know. If they're following through on that. watching this episode today, that very first scene struck a chord because of course, something very chilling has been, going on past, week or more.

The, um, seemingly, without, due process, I don't know how else to say it. the abduction and, disappearing of, student activists who have broken no laws, but have been expressing opinions that the current administration doesn't like.

JOHN: That's exactly it. that's exactly it. You know, people who, they contort themselves to find a way in which they violated some aspect of immigration law, which again, is something that would have to be adjudicated, not, not by wave of, of, of virtue. And, uh, that's, [00:07:00] that, that's why it's funny, you know, the way these episodes unfold and we think, oh, well, you know, how fast is this train moving?

Um, been an uncomfortable experience to watch how, how parallel it is and how quickly the train is going. The, you know, I saw the video of, of the, of the, um, Woman from Turkey, who was I, I believe, a PhD student

JOSH: I couldn't watch it.

JOHN: who, um, and, I'm on the opposite. I sort of end up almost obsessively watching it, you know, for, for, for a period.

And then I can't watch it again. And I tried gathering. I said, well, what do we know right now? You know, what do we know about like where she is? What's happened? And you know, as far as we know, she has been disappeared maybe in a certain facility, maybe not. and. They, they, they start off with the scarier cases, the ones where people not scarier the were to be the more controversial figures.

So they start off with a student who is a little more okay, has said things that are a little more questionable and, and things that many across the political spectrum would find, uncomfortable or disagree with. so, so they start with that. Now they have narrowed it into somebody who.[00:08:00] 

All the information we have is that they co-authored a op-ed piece, you know, which is literally the manifestation of Freedom of Speech, a newspaper article. I don't think you can get any more definitive than that as to what freedom of speech is, and I. Expressing a viewpoint that is not in any way espousing violence or harm to anyone.

It is a viewpoint that many people will agree with and many people will disagree with. It is literally a political viewpoint, and by expressing that became subject to the immediate withdrawal of her student visa. By fiat of specifically the Secretary of State. That's, that's the information as I have in front of me.

You know, everybody says, well, they must know more, they must be doing more bullshit. You know, they're, they don't know more. There's no evidence of that. It would be presented if it was there. That's how these things work. They would be using any other evidence they had. That's how authoritarianism and why, how fascism operates.

And so they've narrowed it to the, just expressing the wrong opinion, just being on the wrong side of a [00:09:00] debate. Means that you can expel somebody from the country who is legally here to study. and the, the definition is used well, that is a very, you know, precarious visa. They're not really, you know, they're allowed to be here, but they have to be on their best behavior.

Remember, you're some, like, you know, indentured servant being brought to the country under very limited conditions. Um, no, you're in a university. You're literally doing the things that we are supposed to be doing in this country and now being expelled for it. So as these cases now broaden out, I, I, I, I misspoke when I said sort of narrowing as they broaden out to encompass more behavior and more questions, it will be okay.

The next step is obviously the first person of this did have a green card, and that was nullified. And as we're finding that can simply be done with a wave of a pen by one government official. What's the next step now? And this is a scary poll to go down with and, and how close it relates to the show remains to be seen because I'm trying to think of the allegories in the show, but it defines what is a citizen?

If everybody's saying, [00:10:00] well, citizens are still protected, ignoring the fact that there are a million ways the government can harass its own citizens, but let's just assume we're talking about, expelling people from a country. there is no clear definition of what makes a citizen outside of the 14th Amendment. It's always been left to the legislature. The constitution doesn't define it very clearly. There's the concept in English, common law of naturalization, but it's not something that is, you know, written in stone. So there's really nothing stopping any government saying, well, we're simply gonna shift the goalposts.

We are going to, again, by flick of a pen, revoke one citizenship, because where, where is the counter law or institution to say you can't do that. So that's where you start looking at, well, as these cases get tested and expand out their reach further and further, there's no limit to one day where it is simply a shopkeeper.

It is simply a person on the street espousing the wrong opinion, and you can be harassed by a law enforcement figure. And, and the, the [00:11:00] follow-up to the scene, which is very important is that only two or three episodes later, that store is shut down by the Ministry of peace. So the, so the reports go back to the officer, they, they get that final, uh, a piece of evidence they need from Zach Allen, you know, who's very much on the fence, but is, you know, coerced into, you know, saying even more.

But, but that also happened at the end of the second season. You know, they started this investigation. Now the ministry peace can come in and say we're using our authority to literally shut you down. You lose your rights, and they disappear him because that scene in later episodes is a direct follow up to this.

It's the same guy. It's the same store, and he's gone. It's not just that the store is closed, he's gone. You don't see him outside like, well, I lost my business. Can you come help me? He was disappeared. And his own, and, and one can assume he was a valid citizen of Earth dome, I mean of the Earth Alliance, uh, that there was nothing else he had done to warrant that action.

But there it was. He had the wrong opinion at the wrong time. And in that time in [00:12:00] place, the captain wasn't there to protect him. Uh, which leads to, you know, as a server, as we're barreling towards the episode, Severed Dreams, it leads to that ultimately, and that's, that's the chilling part that I think in regular times to watch in the 1990s, you're like, we can never let that happen.

God wasn't that a horrible time to have lived in when things like this could happen? It's more so a looking outwardly to something and saying, aha, that's what we watch out for. It's a really sad position we find ourselves in today to be looking at that and saying, ah, look at that. That's happening. Great.

Next to me, like, not even in a far away place that's literally happening blocks from me or a neighborhood or, you know, it, it's just happening. And it's not a comfortable place to be because I don't, I don't want, I don't want the storyline of Babylon 5, uh, as it tried to explore authoritarianism to happen in my life.

That's supposed to be a story that warns us from going down that path. But that's the thing about this show. He wrote into it. When you, especially when you go to deconstruction of Falling Stars end of season [00:13:00] four, it, it's built into the show that this is, that history rhyming thing is that we will always be on the precipice of doing this again.

And you brought up something really interesting, you, you said about the, uh, the officer relishing it. Um, it's so funny because I was having a conversation with somebody not long ago, literally today. What, what, what we are looking for a term for it. I don't know if there's a a, a good definition. I'm sure.

Well, of all people, the Germans have a word for everything. They must have a word for this, but a person who at heart is, uh, a a bit of, you know, has certainly sympathies towards a more fascist way of life, but during normal times when the expectations socially is to be respectful of. Civil liberties of the bill of Rights, that instinct is tamped down and they function based on that because they're told that's the way the world is.

And the moment that restriction is taken off of them, they will act fully in support of fascism. And here's, and here's where the, you know, I'll say it, where, where I think clear example of that is [00:14:00] somebody, The, uh, a very specific special government employee right now, who has hinted at things like this for years and years and years.

But once the gloves were taken off, once the limits were taken off of him, uh, was quite happy to act. And, and support and signal fascist symbols. And you know, you, you can't tell me that somebody using the, the, the Roman salute numerous times, , is not doing that deliberately. It's just that five years ago, 10 years ago, that would've been singled out and that wouldn't have been acceptable.

They would've apologized. It would've been a whole thing, wouldn't change their hearts. But that's the point, is that it's not to say people are inherently bad, but we're all. All of us is the potential to give into our worst instincts. And it depends on how much society overlays us, , and where we feel comfortable doing that, and then how we identify ourselves and are willing to say, Hey, I'm going for my better nature and my worse nature.

And I think that's what we're facing now, that that's security [00:15:00] officer. We don't know anything more about him. We never will. He, he doesn't come back in the show, but his facial expression tells you he doesn't agree with the captain. He's angry in that moment. He wants this guy to be silenced, and whether it's because he confuses, oh, that's the other line that Sheridan uses.

It's like there's a difference between the office. And the person who holds that office, and that person right there, that security officer there couldn't tell the difference. And you can tell. And again, I say like, that's why you, that's why they probably filmed it that way, is that He's like, what? No, no.

It's, it's the same thing. And I get the sense a lot of people feel that way now they think of The presidency is a person, not an office.

JOSH: Yeah, you know, it, is striking, the way I feel like a lot of MAGA folk regarded, Barack Obama certainly, but even Joe Biden, who on paper seems like the most. Odine uncontroversial president could imagine almost. Um, within the last week, I read somebody's cited a study.

And I don't remember where, so you'll just have to take my word for it, that [00:16:00] I the source where I read this. but cited a, a study that said something to the effect of roughly 30% of the population naturally has a sort of authoritarian mindset. and as you say, normally, those impulses are constrained because, that's not how the world generally works. you know, and that figure might even seem surprising or high until you think about way people conduct themselves in their, personal relationships or in their professional relationships. There are a lot of authoritarian power dynamics that exist in our world that, you see it with certain people the way that they're apparent, the way that they're a boss, right? So when you think about those interactions, then all of a sudden, you know, 30% maybe sounds about right.

JOHN: You're so right. You're, you're not shocked and I think I. I don't know of the modern studies. I know that generally in the literature I've read, about [00:17:00] Germany in the Third Reich and the Nazis is, is that there was always an estimation made. You know, that around, you know, and, and hence we have that, that, that sort of phrase, 30% sort of lean towards authoritarianism, lean towards fascism.

30% do not, and then there's 30% sort of in the middle, give or take. Who can be swayed in the moment either way. Um, and they said the same thing about the American Revolution as to who was loyal to the crown, but, but it, it does seem that pattern repeats itself, you know, roughly ones in given population, but that, but I love the example.

I, I always think of examples when I hear somebody say, um, use phrases about employees and boss relations and say, well, you're paid to do the work. You're paid to do the employee. You are hours when you are that, you know, you are there to do, you know, completely in the service of your, of your, um, manager of your boss, et cetera.

They usually use it in reference to the term of the boss. And that might be, you know, I saw a tweet the other day and somebody was talking about, you know, the idea of being harassed by their boss [00:18:00] because they, you know, were late due to circumstances outta their control. And then the other response is being, well, that's what you're paid to do and you have to respect your boss and you have to respect this.

And it's known as denying the need for structure and discipline and the attempt to make things work cohesively. That's not what we're talking about. It's that, it's that it's that extra little step in the voice, in the word choice, where all of a sudden you're putting that boss, you're taking that boss out of the role of just, okay, well, the, they're another part of this, um, machine of a company that has certain responsibilities.

No, no. They're, they're put on a hierarchical pedestal. Oh, they're higher up. You respect your boss because they're your boss. And it's like, yeah, what happens when you go into a job and you have a complete incompetent boss? You still have the job to do, but you're supposed to pretend they're not incompetent.

That's, that's the point. In many cases, that's what you're required to do is to literally go against truth. You're supposed to go obje, go against objective truth of what you see with your eyes because the [00:19:00] hierarchy demands it. And I think people who are more willing to, or. Or towards that part of the spectrum, the people who are really more like calling him out and being like, Hey, well this guy's an idiot, are definitely on the other end.

And then again, a big chunk in the middle who are not necessarily a comfortable either way. So you can identify those trends. Same with parents. Those who say what I do rules, I don't care about what you say. It's not doubting the important, the, the role of the parent and the authority of the parent. It's how you exercise it.

And that's what any good show, you know, story is always about is, is it showing you? Well, you have literally, that's the scene, the captain of the station is the top authority figure. On the station, there's no one above him. You have to go back to Earth to get an order above him. So he's able to remedy the situation with his authority.

The, the point is, the way he uses it is not to beat anybody down. It's not, he doesn't even try to take that security officer down a notch. He doesn't, he [00:20:00] doesn't, um, go after him personally. He doesn't insult him. You really have to look at what he doesn't do and then look at what he does do, which is to say, which is to clearly show his disapproval and say, this is all.

literally holding the material, um, and saying, I will not stand for this on organization. So he's using his authority to broadcast his values, to broadcast his beliefs rather than say, you do what I tell you to do, because I'm the captain. He doesn't refer to his rank, he doesn't refer to his status.

He simply gives the order and shares his views and his and his morality right there, and his moral views on that. And, and you see, you see that the, that the, I don't even wanna call it deference, but the respect from the shopkeeper there, isn't just one of, oh, thanks for bailing me out, buddy. It was, oh, no, I, you know, I, I also respect. What you've done here. And that was in the body language too. And, and that's, and that's the power he had over the security officers and that's what they always did in this season. As Nightwatch grows in power, they keep the captain out of a lot of the conflict. They center [00:21:00] it on Garibaldi and the Nightwatch and you see that he has a different kind of power.

The captain's is a little more soft power. Garibaldi has to be in the thick of it. And I can't, you know, we'll get to that when he has to ultimately, you know, clash with the Nightwatch. But, uh, he, he is really angry. Because he thought he had this personal relationship with all these people, you know, and they're already turning at this point.

and, and it shows there are different ways of showing that. But, but that Captain's authority will only go so far. That perspective will only go so far until they're given the hierarchical permission to either go around or depose the captain. Which is where we're going in the show at this point. You know, that the captain's not long for this until he does something, uh, uh, to stave off Earth dome.

This one little scene sets the tone in so many ways for an episode. That itself is not harping on specifically, uh, uh, speech or the shopkeeper or or Nightwatch outside of this. This is meant to remind us as viewers, Hey, this is where we're at by the way, before we [00:22:00] get into the rest of the episode, which is still relevant under the rest of what's happening.

We just wanna remind you. This is what's happening on earth. And I, I like that kind of storytelling. I like where they, where they regularly drop those scenes into, to build that world, to build that context to say, yes, today's adventure, today's storyline is gonna be this, but you also need to remember where we are.

And there were, there were hints dropped. When we get to Exogenesis, I'll talk about like one of the hints I only just picked up last night on on my second rewatch. I'm like, wow. They were really planning this out with subtle, subtle detail in each episode to reference the next episode.

JOSH: The scene with Marcus and his informant

JOHN: yes.

JOSH: He says two things. He has a message from Ranger One, who we know is Sinclair, to pull their forces away from Earth space because something strange is happening.

JOHN: Mm-hmm.

JOSH: To which Marcus says, something like, well, that's not exactly a revelation. knowing what's about to happen and knowing what's happening with the shadow vessel, that we'll [00:23:00] see in the next episode. 

JOHN: The, the next line is, oh, and the package from Mars on its way. It, it, it seems like a complete throwaway line in that episode. and I never noticed it. Literally never noticed it. It's because I'd done a rewatch, one rewatch and I'd watched Messages from Earth and now I'm going back, or, or the one before that.

And I was like, wait a second. Oh, so even when I wasn't picking up on it, that's why when you and I were having a discussion as kids like, Hey, hey Josh, I think something's happening here. They're building this up. It's because we, we were in season one, picking up these seemingly throwaway lines that we're always building to the next thing, and then building to something that might be five episodes down or 10 down even.

And that is. That's what I absolutely love about this show is that it gives you the subconscious too, of like, well, okay, I'm, I'm not, I'm not gonna analyze, I'm watching a TV show. I'm not analyzing every line, but enough of them build up like that. And so when that thing happens in the next episode, you're primed for [00:24:00] it.

You're ready to go. You feel like you've been watching this, this really well crafted story unfold that's cohesive. It makes sense. That's something that a lot of shows don't get to do because they either don't have a showrunner with the authority to do it or the, or the vision to really put those pieces into place.

So this episode had that, and even this opening scene starts that Exogenesis had it because I would not have thought when we started this project that Exogenesis would've been, you know, as much of an important episode as it is. But again, thematically everything he was writing was, I did, uh, uh, read though recently that when they were talking about pacing out these episodes and the CGI budget.

And, and what they were doing for it. There were a couple episodes that, that were written or were given to other, or, you know, were secondary rules to buy them time. And I think that Gethsemane is one of those episodes, uh, that, that's just before this, which is one of my favorite episodes. Is it really arc based?

Very much not which is a bit of a relief. You sort of get an episode that is beautifully about the station, [00:25:00] about a major moral issue. Uh, again, listeners, that's an episode to watch when you just wanna get into like a very Star Trek moral question episode that also gives you a relation to the characters in the show.

And Brad Dorf coming in amazingly as always, you know, so, so you get that. That worked in every episode to some extent. But this is, this is where we're in. Yeah. The train's outta the station. It's gaining steam and there's no going back. And that leads us to the next part, which is the, that's the, oh no, this isn't gonna be good moment of when Garibaldi, I love Garibaldi 

JOSH: he's so grumpy. The whole, in every scene. In every scene, if your eye goes to Garibaldi, even if he's in the background, he, he looks so grumpy. He's so mad. 

JOHN: it's like the archetype of like, you know how you had McCoy was like the grumpy, sarcastic doctor? his character serves that role but he also loves to, uh, needle. And when he, when he calls Ivanovaova event is [00:26:00] like, I have your best friend in the whole universe on the lines.

Like, guess who it is? And she's like, what? What are you talking about? And it's best speaking of Star Trek and original series actors. Here we get the amazing Walter Koenig.

JOSH: He is so good on this show. He is so good. Like, you cannot get further away from Chekov.

JOHN: Right.

JOSH: The way that he plays this character, he's so good in this role. and I did think it was really, interesting because so far in the show we haven't, um, spoken about him or, or even the PsiCorps.

JOHN: Yeah. Yeah.

JOSH: What is really interesting is, um. You know, the situation is created where, uh, he and Garibaldi have to work together and it's a source of a lot of humor.

JOHN: It is a dark buddy cop.

JOSH: It's a dark buddy cop. Exactly. Exactly. But what I thought was really interesting about it. It is actually made explicit, in one moment.

the role [00:27:00] of the PsiCop and the role of the chief of security are actually very similar and it would not take much to, make. Garibaldi, behave, the way that, the PsiCorps does, you know, the intimidation, the bending of the rules. there's a, a very funny moment in the interrogation.

where Walter Koenig is like.

we all know you're lying, officially he has rights.

JOHN: Offic. That was the line. Officially. He has rights, but we all know he is lying.

JOSH: Yeah, exactly. Right. Right. And like he's explicitly breaking the law, but he's, he's bending the rules a little bit. He, he's not following the spirit of the law. And, Garibaldi quite often has done the same thing. the guy that they're interrogating, even kind roughs him up a little at the end.

JOHN: Mm-hmm.

JOSH: And then at the end of that scene, Garibaldi says something about, so you were using the uniform

and the badge for intimidation. And Bester's like, the same way you use your uniform And your 

JOHN: he's not even, he, he's [00:28:00] not even trying to like def, he's not even best doesn't, this is Walter's great performance. He doesn't say it defensively. 

He says it. He says it just like. Yep. That's, that the, the same way you do, he, he, he's stating it as a happy fact, you know, um, which goes to the line that he says when they first encounter each other on the station or when they're doing their little walk and talk and, uh, He about like, you must not sleep well. He goes, oh, I sleep, I sleep perfectly. The sleep of the just. And again, it's almost like cheerfulness that you're like, oh, that's creepy. I don't like this. Um, it, it, it's so good. But I, but, but before we go for that, this is, so this is the perfect setup for what happens in season four, the end of season three 

into season four. 

JOSH: Yeah.

JOHN: You're talking about how similar they are in many respects. And again, like depending on how they were, you know, where they might've gone in life, how, how similar what Garibaldi and Bester do in terms of being a type of law enforcement, personality wise, everything else. So Bester realizes, and, and he says at [00:29:00] the end of this episode, well, maybe we'll get to work together again.

And Gar like, absolutely not. Well that is, and again, this is JMS, he knew what he was gonna be doing down the road. With this one. So when it turns out to be Bester, who manipulates Garibaldi and uses telepathy to do, but he doesn't, he doesn't do a mind wipe. He doesn't do a mind reprogram, he says, and I, I remember that.

He just says, we're gonna, we're gonna just work around the edges. We're gonna nudge and enhance things that are already there. Garibaldi's suspicion, his ability, because Bester knew himself, he knew Garibaldi, he knew exactly what to accentuate. So that there'd be an untraceable, psychic manipulation that would get Garibaldi exactly into the position that ster needed to flush out the threats to the PsiCorps in season four and, and, and ultimately betray Sheridan.

it's this, that's why what I meant, like the next episode, Marcus uses a throwaway line, you, you think is a throwaway line for one episode later. This is [00:30:00] actually setting up events, exactly setting up events for a season later, you know, because it's, it's, it's just like, it's cool. That's just really, really cool.

I love that.

JOSH: You know, that's wild because, I don't know how many times I have watched this episode and until you said that, I never made that connection. But as soon as you said it, the hair on my arms, stood up and like, how cool is it that this show that's 30 some odd years old can still do that?

JOHN: Yeah, I mean that's, that's a testament to it. It's why I am trying to get people to watch the show and I'm saying, listen. Take the, take the early CGI as this cheesy, you know, retro thing. Call it vintage, call it vintage. CGI, you know, call, call the set design anything else because it actually really is quite beautiful, the shows.

But the writing, when this show gets going, there's almost there. There's very little I can compare to it. And, and, yeah, I, I just, I just could not recommend [00:31:00] the show, regardless of what we're talking about in terms of the overall topics. It's just a good show to watch and the story unfold. It's so, um, rewarding.

You get a payoff for every story, beat, every, every character, every storyline. And, and of course I didn't, I didn't remember when, when, when I first sat down to watch this episode. This is a major storyline episode. It has some relevance to the arc. It has some relevance to, uh, what we're talking about, but it is fundamental to character development of so many characters.

JOSH: I mean, this is, the moment of, is full transformation into the character that he becomes

JOHN: This, this is his. Revelation and, and, and, and to quote him at the end of the season, moments of transition and moments of revelation. This has the feeling of both. He's been in transition,

JOSH: Yes.

JOHN: he is been, he, he, he's been experiencing all these things. Having new, having to realize I have to update how I operate here to save my people.

And he's already been changing to some degree. [00:32:00] And then the very reason best there is the dust aim, the episode. And turns out the buyer's G'Kar. The material that can make him a telepath. And that's, and that's just a, the, the, the way they did that. So they wove in all the different stories, but I love that this is the beginning of G'Kar's next steps and how important he becomes for the next rest of.

JOSH: So going along with, the bester observation about how, Garibaldi, you know, maybe you and I aren't as, dissimilar as you thought, what I took away from watching this episode, today in 2025, the thing that stood out to me was the question of, is it acceptable to do the wrong thing for the right reasons?

To do the immoral thing for the right reasons? so, you know, we have G'Kar, trying to acquire, weapons and illegal drugs to try to free, his people from Centauri occupation, what he's doing is illegal and, he assaults Londo.

But given what [00:33:00] has done and the power that he has. not to be like a moral, relativist here, but I mean, I mean, maybe I will be like 

JOHN: Well, from, from the writing standpoint, it's meant to give you that wider understanding and, and almost sympathy, but also like, oh wow. There are no easy answers here. It's not black and

white. Um.

JOSH: the other thing, uh, before, Bester shows up on the station, they're seriously talking about whether or not they should just kill him.

JOHN: Ivanova almost does.

Ivanova 

JOSH: I, Ivanova almost does. 

JOHN: It belays that order. Oh, classic. Dramatic moment. Sci-fi television belay that order to the voice command, even the order just been given. You're like, wait, that's a good response for Siri there, you know? Um.

JOSH: I was thinking about that as well. I was like, so do they have like a, one second delay so that they make sure no one shows up and belays the order?

JOHN: Right, right in, in the code. It's called the Dramatic Captain Appearance. You know, it, it's, there has to be something like that. But, but these characters, these people that are all, you know, they're presented as good characters. They, they, they are the [00:34:00] good guys as far as the show's concerned. They're all conflicted at moments because they've all, first of all, they've all suffered.

At the hands of people abusing power. That's what Ivanova's wrestling with. 

She has quite literally been abused by the PsiCorps. Her and, and her mother's death weighs heavily on her. She hates what the PsiCorps stands for. She hates what they've done to the people she loves, and she's also afraid because she's a latent telepath So you completely understand that Ivanova. Is going to blow up best's ship before it gets there because Yes, he's, and she says it as she, she does her inner monologue, you know, outside She speaks it. Yes. He, he's a threat. The moment he reads the people on the station, the gigs up, the opposing President Clark is over.

That's it. The, they're all done for and all go to, to, to jail at best. You know, uh, she knows it. So she's, she's taking like the logical threat, imposing it upon her own trauma and pain of like. What this guy and what he represents did to, to my mother, did to [00:35:00] me. and so you understand the decision she's making.

The captain is the sort of a, a again, is meant to be this other role of understanding that he, he has to make those same decisions, goes down that road himself at different points and is able to save her from herself in that moment. Save her from making that decision because he knows that she's gonna go down that.

Going down that road means there's no coming back. He's, he's not even like, oh, hey, you'd be completely wrong. It's, look what this will do to you as a person. And, and that's what I love is that how that plays for what we discussed in another episode down the road when Sheridan Bester are thereafter the, after the condition of President Clark parole resolved way down the road, you know, and he says to him and says, I make those hard calls, the morally questionable calls, the ones that I will have to live with, but you enjoy it.

You enjoy it. And, and, and that was the difference. So when, when he intervenes that moment, yeah, he saves Ivanova from herself. But that's not just because he's good, she's [00:36:00] bad, she needs to learn. It was no, no, no, no. They're all in it together. And he's like, no, I've been there. I could make that same call since I'm not you in the moment.

I'm gonna stop you from doing it to save you from yourself. But by extension, he needs her to do the same for him. It's a very equal, that was the thing about the B5 characters. They're very equal to each other. Like one, one falls the other, picks them up, and then they fall and the other one has to pick them up.

That happened with Garibaldi and Franklin. It happened with all, you know, every character had these interactions where no one is the saint, no is the angel. Uh, and the angels aren't the angel as it turns out. You know, I quite literally, with the Vorlons, so I, I really liked how that little quick, you know, scene of, oh my God, she's doing this and you understand dramatically, no, it, it's.

And Bester comes on board and we're all always like, okay, here he is. The answer is to bring in a bunch of member telepaths to counteract him until he takes the drugs that suppress his ability.

JOSH: Nothing like a level playing field to ruin a PsiCop's day.

JOHN: Isn't that a great 

line? Isn't that, that is so good. That's that's I think something that a lot of [00:37:00] that, again, weaves back into the, the authoritarian nature is they hate a level playing ground. They hate having to play fair. Somebody who relishes power and, loves the idea of always having more than somebody else and never having to, and never having to be accountable.

That, that's the big a PsiCop who's gonna hold a PsiCop accountable. Well, a bunch of Minbari Telepaths and a Babylon 5 crew that does not wanna deal with this crap, you know? And as a result, you end up with a very frustrated Bester who keeps his composure, but you can tell he's seething underneath.

JOSH: so you know what's funny about that? whenever he shows up, they play, um, uh. Some variation of the, guess who it is? Like, guess who's coming? And everyone's like, oh my God, not this guy. And then in the season five episode, uh, The Corps is Mother, the Corps is Father, which is completely from the point of view of the PsiCorps.

You see that, they have the same reaction, uh, there's another psych cop and he is like, Hey, Al, so, we have a mission for you. We're sending you to your favorite place in the entire galaxy, Babylon [00:38:00] 5. And he's like, oh my God.

I said, to 5 again. Why do you keep sending me to Babylon 5? and then everyone on Babylon 5 is like, oh, Bester, why is Bester coming to Babylon 5? And it's just like, it's quite funny.

JOHN: That's the dark humor of, of JMS that always is woven into this

and doesn't, but, but it's always like, yeah. Oh God, I, that's why you can also have fun with these episodes. You, you, this isn't, uh, you're, you're not getting a lecture from the show.

It's very human. but God, Walter kind deserves, he deserves our accolades 

for, for, for this. And I think, I think I recall, I want to go back and watch interviews with him because I, I recall him talking about really, really enjoying

doing this.

JOSH: Completely. Uh, the most recent interview that I heard with him, um, I think a year or two ago, he was on, uh, the Inglorious Trek, Burts, podcast.

JOHN: Yeah. Yeah.

JOSH: and, he reiterated that, he was like, yeah, like I loved, playing that character. I loved working on that show. I love, what, Joe wrote [00:39:00] for me.

I think it's probably the most satisfying, creative experience of his career.

JOHN: yeah, yeah, 

JOSH: to be able to play a character like that, show a different side of himself, show what he can do, and then also have it, build over time.

JOHN: yeah. To to, to be a villain, but to be a multilayered. Very human character.

JOSH: You understand him? Like, so even in this episode, there were moments, at least for me, where you kind of like him and you're like, Hey Garibaldi, why are you giving him such a hard time? you know, and to be able to. Do that knowing he's a horrible, horrible guy who's done heinous things and will do heinous things because obviously we have seen the rest of the show.

but there's a moment, the one that, you refer to where, they've successfully completed the operation and he says to Garibaldi. I know we have our differences, but I think we made a pretty good [00:40:00] team and maybe we'll work together someday. And like in that moment you almost kind of want to see the facade crack in Garibaldi a little, and he just, he doesn't give him an inch.

He's like not a chance. And knowing where it goes. And as you pointed out, when they do work together again, it's pretty dark. It's not good for Garibaldi.

JOHN: Not good for Garibaldi. 

JOSH: So like I said, my, uh, my takeaway from this episode was, um, it's, it's really grappling with the question of, when is it acceptable or when is it necessary to, do the quote unquote wrong thing when it's for the right reasons. you know, the immoral thing, the, illegal thing, the cruel thing.

And with that in mind, uh, watching the following episode, Exogenesis, there was a plot line, the B plot or even the C plot, where Ivanova has to feel out another one of, the junior officers, Lieutenant Corwin. And that interaction is almost exactly the same interaction [00:41:00] that, she had with, Mr.

Wells in the fall of night except in reverse.

JOHN: Yes, you're right. You're right.

JOSH: So she has found herself in a similar situation where she's having to say what she's means without saying it, and to kind of feel out the other person and whether or not they can let them in and they can work with them. And I thought that that was a very

striking reversal, because, the way that it was, played the first time with her and Wells, um, was he's, clearly the one acting immorally or at the very least, acting, questionably. And now we are seeing a situation where our characters are the ones who have to act questionably.

JOHN: They have to break the rules.

JOSH: They have to break the rules. And, the question that the show raises is how do you know you are not becoming the villain? How do you know that doing [00:42:00] the quote unquote wrong thing to do is actually the right thing to do? Uh, because, don't you think that the bad guys also think that doing the wrong thing is the right thing, right?

So, so how do you know the difference? And I think this show, ultimately says, yes, sometimes you have to do what you have to do. but it does not, uh.

Come down on the side of, you know, therefore it's right and moral

JOHN: You know, it's, it is a paradigm of. might makes Right and right makes might, the sense that, when they invert, you know, people go through contortions and say, well, when I use my power, I'm right by, by virtue of having power, I'm right. That, that, that's a dynamic that's really important to, to recognize is that if your precondition is well, I have the power and therefore anything I do is right, which is most definitely an aspect of this current administration, you know, that that is what it's, if I do it, it's right.

Today is, you know, when we're recording this is not too long after the [00:43:00] Signal leaks were exposed. I mean, the Signal conversations and everything else that would have destroyed any other candidate, it did destroy, arguably speaking, it destroyed Hillary Clinton's campaign because that may have been the one thing that at the very end when Comey comes in and says, oh, there are more emails, and everybody was, was pumped up to, you know, into a.

Madness about the, about Oh, but her emails. But her emails, she used the private emails for, which was the wrong thing to do there, there was no question that was breaking the regulations. There should have been accountability for that. It wasn't a grand, you know, uh, a, a a, a crime of, of the highest order, but it was, but it was not following the rules.

Now you have people doing it quite deliberately, by the way, for, for listeners to understand the signal issue that is part of Project 2020 five's instruction set to government employees carrying out Project 2025. Do not use. Government communication because that can be subpoenaed and reviewed in the future in case you are breaking a law or you're, and, or, or more specifically, [00:44:00] we don't want our agenda being tracked as it's happening in real time.

So use off government communications to carry out official government business. So here you have intelligence officials as Secretary Defense, all using signal to communicate with each other off of government servers, off of government records. If they hadn't screwed up, no one would've known what they said.

I mean, and, and obviously they're gonna be continuing to do this stuff in the future, but they broke the rule in an egregious way, in a direct way that was deliberate and also based on what was leaking, but based on what we've seen in the community, insane to do. But no one's gonna be held really accountable.

There's some senators who are grumbling and angry about it, but, uh, it sounds like the senators in Earthdome well. We're looking into this, you know, that, that type of thing. But that is completely an absolute violation. Of every national security rule and law that would in other cases, put people in jail. But because Trump's people are doing it, he has the might, he has the [00:45:00] zeitgeist behind him. There's nothing wrong with it. He downplays it as, oh, it's not a big deal. It's not a big deal. So the idea of who determines what is right and what doesn't, when it's coming from the precondition of, well, whatever I do is ultimately right, because I have the power and because I believe in myself.

That's where you begin to really lose it. I think that's where in, in the, when you use the word villain, I think that's how you identify the villains. If they believe that a righteousness just comes from the fact that they can do it. And I don't think there's anyone with a clear definition of that than Trump.

He switches what he thinks is right and wrong based on what he can do in a given moment. Um, and, and that's just clear as day. It's right when his opponent is, it is wrong when his opponent does it. It's right when he does it. 

JOSH: I actually think it's more than an aspect. I think it's foundational. I think it may even, be sort of, the core of the whole thing.

some people are supposed to have the power, right? And when the right people have the power, it's okay.

JOHN: I see where you're going with. Yeah.

JOSH: you know, again, I [00:46:00] think whether you talk about the authoritarian mindset or what have you, there's a belief in a natural hierarchy, that is, the way the world is supposed to work, perhaps even divine, know, and liberal democracy. perverts it, by artificially redistributing wealth, and opportunity and power.

so anything you do to counter that is moral, because what it is doing is immoral and unnatural and is actually robbing from those at the top, to give and to elevate the undeserving. so when the right people have the power that they're supposed to have they're at the top of the hierarchy, they get to define, what is right and correct, simply by virtue of the fact that they have the power because, that is their natural and proper, uh,

JOHN: I, I, I am absolutely sure. Not only that you're right. I'm, I'm absolutely sure that there's some really good academic literature on this because it's, it's rumbling through my brain and I can't call it up. I definitely, [00:47:00] I think like having an academic mind join us at some point, would, would, would be helpful, uh, to reframe some of this, because that, that is, that is the point is, I think the mindset of those who like to operate in hierarchy and are authoritarian friendly, we're talking about the population at large, that 30%, if you will, they will rage and, and, and to use the US example, they will rage for the tea party against any overstep, an executive order by President Barack Obama.

Uh, as you see, this is a tyrant of our time. And go crazy about that. When somebody like Trump acts in a fashion that well exceeds that. 'cause that is in line with what those people want in terms of the society they want formed. Uh, it's organizational structure. It's whether it's the, you know, racial balance, whether it's the, uh, uh, economic balance, all those things, because they're getting what they want.

That's allowed. I, I always think back, and, and, and this is sort of a deep cut that, you know, when come this, but I always think back to Sic Semper Tyrannus. You [00:48:00] know, John Wilkes Booth utters upon the assassination of, of, uh, President Lincoln. And that is a moment where a, as a student, when I, when I was studying that, I thought, oh, well, I mean, I'm, I'm obviously, I didn't think that Lincoln was a tyrant.

He did use executive power. He overreached, he was struck back by the courts. Like he, he was trying to hold this union together during the Civil War and, and defeat Confederacy. But the idea that from the southern perspective, and particularly this guy who, who, who took him out tragically. that itself is one of those alternate history ideas. Gotta wonder like, what if he had lived Lincoln was the ultimate tyrant to him, which is unthinkable to me. And yet you realize, oh, it's because Lincoln was an affront to their social order, to their oppression of an entire group of people, millions upon millions of people who would be completely oppressed.

He said, well, who's a tyrant? It would be those who were the enslavers. Right? Well, not in their own minds. In their minds, they had all these, you know, twisted views about why they were doing, why they [00:49:00] were, what they were doing was the right thing to do, and how anybody who opposed them was themselves a tyrant.

So it sort of, it takes that word and, and, and really neutered it, you're saying, well, is a tyrant entirely in the, in the eye of the beholder? You can look back now with the history's lens in hindsight and say, well, the tyrants are those who abuse their power and oppress the others. Uh, it's not to say all leaders don't go out of bounds at times, but that those who actively seek to un control those o other people unwillingly, that's the real tyrant.

Wow. I mean, I, I hear that, I see the tweets. I see this is that the moment somebody, pe people accuse people of, well, somebody they say told me to use their pronouns, that's tyrannical. I, I've literally, that's the exact phrase I've seen, and I think, Hey, I don't think that word means, do you think it does, but that's the mindset is that somebody not even, not even forcing one to use, because that's an interesting debate to always have, is that no one is forcing you to speak a certain way.

They're asking and maybe correcting you, but there's, but there's no use of force, there's no use of real [00:50:00] coercion in that sense. It's just, Hey, can you do this? It say you are upending the order of my world, the way I order it, the way I define people. How dare you? That's the biggest offense to people who operate in that mindset.

So they will and, and, and then they'll immediately reverse and go to, I will support anybody who will maintain who. The order of my world and I will serve them. And, and, and that goes up, let's dial it back to Babylon 5 now, finally. Orders. Order is orders. You know, when Lieutenant Corwin is, is answering the question in that moment, we know where he ends up.

He ends up on the side of Sheridan and Babylon 5. He's one of the good guys. But he, but in the moment, he, he, he makes it very clear, oh no, you know, if I'm given, an order, it's not really my job to determine whether the order is, is right or wrong or valid, because the chain of command, and without the chain of command, it would all fall apart.

And he is not, this is the whole thing, but he's not wrong. he's not the bad guy. He's not doing the wrong thing. He's bringing up that [00:51:00] perspective that we're gonna see repeated in episode of episode of people who are following orders. They're not bad people, but that doesn't mean that what's happening because of them and what they're actually doing isn't itself bad.

So you have to question that framework a bit. So there's a character who himself is probably more comfortable in a. He might be in the middle or a little bit, a little bit tiny towards the authoritarian side of like, wants to, wants to have a structure in place, wants to know, well, what somebody tells me is what I have to do because they're up there to tell me to do it.

There, there's no question as to morality. We're here to serve earth force. We're here to serve earth dome and I have to trust my leaders. Have it, and, and, and the good times in, in the peaceable times. That sort of works. And what do you do when you get that order that you just know at the very core of your being is immoral, illegal, and wrong?

And what do you do with that?

JOSH: Yeah. You know,

JOHN: question.

JOSH: hopefully if you do think it's wrong, you disobey.

JOHN: But look, but look at what happened in this show. You have, you have, [00:52:00] general after general. You, you, you have the people. I now forgotten his name. I just watched episode.

JOSH: Uh, General Lefcourt.

JOHN: Lefcourt. You know, one of Sheridan's mentors trains him at the academy is still following orders up until the very end. Up until the very end. And of course he rides in and saves them too. But all these people will follow orders to the end, which is the reality of it. It, it doesn't make them bad.

And, and they talk about yes, that in the end, in the aftermath of all this, in the story, they'll have to sift out who was just following orders, who was doing this. And in our world, the Nuremberg trials really had to, uh, that's something I, I've read about, but I, I, I really wanna study more about as we do this as well, because that, that dives into, well, we can't hold everybody who followed orders and simply jail, literally everybody.

But you have to set a threshold at some point. You have to set a threshold at some point that says Yeah, you were just following orders and, and, and where were you in that pecking order? Were you one of the people that was coerced? Were you [00:53:00] afraid for the safety of your family or were you one of the leaders?

you one of the planners? Were you one of the people who, maybe you were just following orders, but you did some really heinous things? The guards at a concentration camp, that becomes a different category than the person who just WW was, was conscripted into the war. I mean, so where you determine those lines is really tricky and it'll never be perfect.

It'll never be easy. Um,

JOSH: What you just made me think of, you know, talking about General Lefcourt sort of, following orders right up until the end. It's not until President Clark turns, the earth's, defense grid on Earth itself.

JOHN: yeah.

JOSH: relating it to what we were just talking about, when you do is right by virtue of the fact that it's you who has the power to do it. that makes me understand why Clark decides to do that at the very end,

JOHN: Yeah.

JOSH: which I never quite [00:54:00] quite understood.

JOHN: Yeah. Was Was he just a psychopath?

JOSH: Exactly.

JOHN: vengeance,

JOSH: Right.

JOHN: but yeah. No, I see where you're going.

JOSH: It was like, oh, okay. He was just, he was, he was insane or like, he became insane. I. but, you know, if that's how you view the world and your position within it, when you are completely boxed in like that, It's like that is the last thing you can do to exercise your power.

JOHN: It, it's the idea o of this world is mine to control. and, and that was Clark, like, Clark viewed this world, this is mine now to control. And if I am no longer going to be in it, then the world will no longer exist. Uh, it.

JOSH: you could even view it as like, from his perspective, you have left me no choice.

JOHN: Yeah,

JOSH: Like, why don't you just let me.

have this power.

JOHN: the ultimate line of the abuser, you leave me. No choice. Yeah. I mean, you know, [00:55:00] in one sense I want, I wanted to make it almost childlike, like, oh, it's the kid taking this ball and going home. No, this, this is not just a childish instinct that this is a profoundly adult human instinct that we've seen repeated in leaders in the past.

And that is, you know, that's why when, when people talk about the Cold War and Mutually Assured Destruction that, that the limits have been placed on nukes, this country, one man has that power, one that means that that one man, in this case, a man, but that one person unilaterally decide on an impulse.

On a bad day to end it all because they haven't given the authority. I don't personally think that's the best system to, to give that. I think there should be far more checks and balances with such a, a, a awesome, horrific firepower to obliterate life as we know it. And you think, yeah, all that requires is a bad, is a bad day.

President Clark obviously had a very bad day and his decision was, I'm gonna take everybody else down with me. He wasn't acting like a child, he wasn't [00:56:00] acting immature. It wasn't a lack of impulse control. This was cold and calculated. You see him, they do that scene where he's pressing the buttons and coordinated.

This wasn't just a, oh, dammit, boom, hit the red button. This was writing out that scorched your thing doing, going through a very specific method to do it, and then carrying the instructions to do it. So yeah, when you believe that Mike makes right your will, that there's always this phrase that comes to mind, you know, my will or by my will and it's the line of, of somebody with power. You, you failed to see the separation of the world from yourself in, in a sense of you think, well, from your will because you think, well, the world has to bend to my will. Everything does. Can you imagine having the power right now that the current US president has, because no one's, again, that was a role designed to have checks and balances, so you couldn't go that far out of bounds and you'd be, and you'd be kept back on your leash.

Uh, there's none of that happening right now. The very system checks and balances is being degraded moment by moment, day by day. So you almost understand why [00:57:00] anybody sitting in that office would say, yeah, of course, anything I do has to be made manifest in this world. Hey, the Supreme Court said it. I can't commit a crime.

It's literally impossible for me to commit a crime. So therefore, anything I do that may have been, I I, I said to somebody again, not too long ago, just today, that that decision probably influenced a. How he's carrying out this president of the, assuming he was gonna win the election, either way more than anything else, because it was, he was quite literally taking the guardrails off of any mental restrictions he had put upon himself.

Those are gone now when you're told you cannot break the law. You are in a unique position, unique of all people, all people in the country. Only one gets to be above all laws unaccountable to all laws. With the one exception of a long shot impeachment, which we now know structurally is nearly impossible.

Never, never, it's never succeeded in history. Uh, that's another thing for viewers, if you wanna do a deep dive on the impeachment of Andrew Johnson one day, I'll tell stories about that on another podcast in [00:58:00] my family history. That is brilliant stuff. But there are reasons. Yeah. It's a, it's a fascinating story.

One relative of mine, one vote in the Senate, a senator.

JOSH: Oh

JOHN: Voted, voted to acquit on his conscience because he didn't like the guy, but didn't believe that his dislike of Johnson justified removing him from office. Didn't wanna give too much power to the Congress over the executive branch, and voted by one vote not to acquit President Johnson. And it's a wild story.

JOSH: I knew about the one vote. I didn't know that it was, a member of your family.

JOHN: James Grimes of Iowa,

JOSH: That's incredible.

JOHN: is is way back there. And we, we, we

JOSH: Okay. Yes. We will have to get into that,

JOHN: There's, there's a thing and

JOSH: you know, at some point.

JOHN: talk about a nexus point. And he was one of three Republicans who voted not to convict and the vote failed by one.

JOSH: Yeah.

JOHN: And there's a lot of history on that. So the Senate still has, if you wanna say it, the Senate still has power.

Even now there is power in the Senate. It was seen back then, it's seen now in the show. The Senate still has that last gasp of little bits of [00:59:00] power, and they're probably too afraid to use it. Because, well, if you speak up, you lose your things. What's happening now? The law firms are being taken out, you know, losing their security clearances.

All these little things happen and they build up and that's ASHA's quote. Once the avalanche has started, it's too late for the pebbles to vote. I always that. I always come back to Kosh with that one. Do it now. Act. If you're going to act to use your voice and speak out, do it now. Yeah, you may pay a price for it, but if you don't, that opportunity is not gonna be there once you cross the threshold.

JOSH: Speaking of the power dynamics and who has it, um, that's another way to look at what happens between Londo and Kar.

JOHN: Oh yeah.

JOSH: Because, G'Kar is near powerless. Um, Londo has found himself with more power than he's ever had. you know, one of the most powerful people in the known, [01:00:00] galaxy and G'Kar through illicit means, through legal means, has an opportunity to, turn the tables a little bit.

And he takes it, and again, very uncomfortable, uh, because we don't like what Londo is doing. Um, it's actually very similar to Vir.

JOHN: Hmm.

JOSH: You know, he even says in this episode, he's, uh, Lennier says something about how, he's, he being Londo is too far gone and he's

JOHN: It is one of the best lines in the show. Ve Vir is suggesting that a trip to Minbar might be good for Londo and uh, uh, uh, Delenn is skeptical and Lennier says, A darkness carried in the heart cannot be cured by moving the body from place to place. That line has stuck with me my entire, you say like, what do I remember from the show?

That's a line that stuck with me forever. Um, because that's, that's profoundly true. Um, and, and it's also very sad because at that moment, [01:01:00] Vir gets up, he, he doesn't protest anymore. You know, it's very interesting. He's 

JOSH: doesn't argue. 

JOHN: he gets up and Delen looks over to, to Lennier and it's this sense of like, oh yeah, we know more about this than, than Vir does, we think.

But also that's just really unfortunate. That's really sad. Like, they know how far gone Londo is. Um, at, at, at this point. Um, uh.

JOSH: Then Vir says something that is so Vir. It's sweet. It's also sad, that is what he thinks. He says That's because you don't know him like I do. One day he'll do something that will surprise you.

JOHN: Yeah.

JOSH: And it's like, you know, the relationship between Vir and Londo is actually really beautiful, uh, because in a lot of ways I. It is sort of authoritarian and abusive, but they love each other.

JOHN: Yeah.

JOSH: and even in this episode, jumping ahead toward the end, you know, because of course, G'Kar, he didn't, just physically assault Londo. He also, he also [01:02:00] assaults, uh, Vir. And then at the end of the episode when, um, Londo is, laying in med lab Vir stays there to stay with him.

And, you know, he kinda, he taps, the glass and, know, Londo is, Fully immobilized, and he returns, the gesture by moving his, his finger slightly. It's heartbreaking. And then at the very end, the last scene between them, which is, a bit of a comedy scene and they're, kind of pretending everything is okay and like, oh boy, you know, what a day.

The thing that Londo has taken away from his, you know, horrific experience, the traumatic experience that he just went through at the hands of G'Kar is to impart some of what he learned to Vir, to give Vir advice. you know, he says. He's glad his government seems to be taking Vir seriously.

JOHN: Yeah.

JOSH: And he says, good. Never let them think your position is a [01:03:00] joke. Right. Uh, because, the memory of how, uh, Londo came to find himself as ambassador to Babylon 5. G'Kar digs out the memory of when he got the assignment. It's 'cause no one else was dumb enough to take it.

Nobody thought it was important. Nobody thought it was safe.

JOHN: Yeah. Nobody thought it was, yeah, that was the last part was safe.

JOSH: Yeah.

JOHN: That's, that was a beautiful mo That was actually a really beautiful character moment.

JOSH: Yeah, because he does care about him,

JOHN: they're both thinking about this now. They're, they're both so, so Vir is the joke of his family. 

JOSH: right? 

Right. 

JOHN: that we, we, we don't learn the detail.

We don't fully learn everything about Londo. You know, we always knew that, oh, this is, this is, we always thought for him it was a dead end position. He was a washed up politician. But to see it, to see it this viscerally, that when Kar invades Longo's mind that this is one of the first thing that comes up, you, you, you not only realize that this is obviously what he thinks about all the time, but that this is, um, profoundly [01:04:00] damaging.

this was something that they both share. that they were seen as jokes, Vir by his family, Londo by his, His peers. and, and that's the thing about, you know, there is that when Babylon 5 was written, the language we un we now use around abuse and trauma was not in vogue, or it wasn't, you know, in advance.

And I'm sure another 20 years from now, it's gonna be different language evolved to handle these things. But the abuse often go on to become abusers. the thing with that is that if you can, at any point in your life, hopefully as somebody who's abused or, or become an abuser, that you can realize that and transcend it, work through it, and then take accountability for that.

You know, we know with a long arc of long of his accountability at the very end. He's given those three choices, you know, as lady more indicates, um, he, he's getting there now, or he's like, yeah, no, in the way that I've treated you, [01:05:00] in the way that I've been treated. And he's saying, don't let them think you're a joke.

Don't, you're right. I mean, that, that's the moment where they're like, we've both, they've both been, uh, both been oppressed by this system of in Centauri culture. In Centauri culture is, is it is presented as this very,

JOSH: It's very Trumpian,

JOHN: it's very Trumpian. It's very, um, it's not only hierarchical, but, but you know, the, in this modern space age, they have slaves,

JOSH: right?

JOHN: you know, in Centauri culture.

Uh, culture. There is, you know, and they're presented as one of the advanced species, you know, outside of, outside of the ancient ones. It's, it's really a, a thing when you say, wow, that, that is the problem is, is this obsession with the hierarchical thing, this obsession with a. Status and power over, over others to explain life.

Because that's what ultimately is, is everybody's sort of like looking to explain life. Well, if I can control it, I control, there are people and I can control life. And Londo was given so much power throughout the series. Now, in this [01:06:00] moment, he's completely powerless. That's, that, that's how the show also like constantly goes around and around is that he's been in the upswing.

He tries to cut off from, from Mr. Morden on the Shadows earlier on in the season. And now he's sort of doing his thing. He's, well regarded and powerful in his government, but he is no longer at this point, part of the Shadows, I think. Um, or, or at least he's coming to that point soon where he is gonna try detach from Shadows and, um, G'Kar blasts through that committing what, what, what, I was actually surprised to hear the word because when I realized the episode, um, Bester says, well, dust allows one to commit a sort of telepathic rape.

JOSH: I had the exact same reaction,

JOHN: Rape isn't a word that's used very often in television unless it's. SVU Law and Order or something like that. It's not something that in the nineties was commonly used. And so you had that reaction too.

JOSH: Yeah.

JOHN: You know, this is 2025. And watching him say that was, was profoundly uncomfortable saying, oh, oh, that was not a word I expected him to use.

And he was presenting it in a [01:07:00] way that like, oh, I'm using this word because it has power. It means something that is completely a violation. And, as a telepath himself, who was very protective of his telepaths, that's why he sees this as such a problem and such a violation. It was, wow, we watched G'Kar telepathically assault and rape.

Londo Mollari, and you see it unfold. It is really uncomfortable 

JOSH: It's, it, it's incredibly uncomfortable.

JOHN: two of them are, I think, the standout actors of the show in so many ways.

JOSH: It's 

JOHN: ALondo on the floor, you know, please, please know. And his and his scream of terror as, as, as G'Kar goes telepathically full in, that's, and that's when they do a commercial break, you know?

Cut. He just like, what the, what just happened here? And he and G'Kar did go deep. He gets to that moment of shame for Mollari because, because what is more intimate than shame?

JOSH: Than shame.

JOHN: and he goes for it. And, and, and then he goes further and he wa he [01:08:00] laughs. And, and, and Malar says, stop laughing at me.

Stop it. Stop, get outta my head. And, uh, G'Kar realizing that there's more in regards to Shadows, goes in for the kill and says That line, which, oh, again, Andreas say it's like, give it all to me. Give it all, or I will rip it from you. Neuron by neuron. It, it could have been campy. It, it, it goes right up to the line of chewing scenery.

Stops right before to where it's just pure drama and, and then you get that cut of all the different scenes of, of Londo past and present and future and his power and, and the connection to the Shadows. And then that's when it happens. That's when G'Kar's revelation begins. You later find out that's the moment when has, uh, telepathically connected to G'Kar.

JOSH: It's very interesting too because, , he appears to him as his father later on. He, he appears to [01:09:00] Sheridan as his father.

JOHN: Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's a very interesting.

JOSH: you know, and, uh, uh, Justin in Za'ha'dum, describes Vorlons as like, your parents they have rules they tell you to clean up after yourself and go to your room. and that's literally how they're portrayed. And I thought it was very interesting, because obviously, you know the memory of G'Kar's, um. Sort of revelation in this episode. I had it going in, but you know, again, the note that that revelation was sort of

nudged, by Kosh, I wonder what you make of this, because in, you know, one sense it's just further manipulation from the Vorlons on, the lesser species. But in another sense, though, it doesn't matter who said it, G'Kar still heard it. It clicked, he was still receptive to hearing that message.

JOHN: And he makes the choices that follow.

JOSH: Right. I did find [01:10:00] it very interesting though that, JMS made the choice to not have G'Kar come to this revelation on his own, uh, drug induced as it was. I mean, like, he could hallucinate his father have that same scene, because, you know, he's high off his Gord, right?

He is out of his head.

JOHN: Why did it have to be Kosh?

JOSH: it have to be Kosh?

JOHN: Hmm. That's a que that, that's, that's a fascinating question. Why did it have to be Kosh? I, I, I really wonder. I I would love to talk to JMS about that. You know, what, what was it about that, the word that was coming through my mind, like, does it make his revelation any less pure?

And,

JOSH: Right,

JOHN: and that, that's, that's what I sort of wrestle with, with, with that moment. But I don't think it does. I, I think I'm with you that it, that, so, so the Vorlons, I remember they say like, the Vorlons and Shadows were left behind to shepherd the younger species. And there was a balance to their views.

You know, and they themselves had to play nice. to respect each other's roles [01:11:00] as, as they were. And at some point, that broke down. And the great ancient battles began between the ul and the Shadows , with the younger races as, as proxies. So, you know, the, the idea of having a, a parent, a parental figure. There to guide you, not to tell you moment by moment what to do, but to impart wisdom and, and, and importantly perspective. Because that's what G'Kar gets is perspective. It wasn't a lon reaching to his mind and say, you must battle the Shadows. You must, uh, you must serve us. You must do X, Y, Z and carry out this plan.

It was deeply philosophical, but it was, a notion worth exploring, saying, wait, and, and remember Kosh chooses the point at which to intervene. So Kosh is there. I mean, it can be assumed. Kosh didn't like, stumble upon it and say, oh, okay, let me intervene now. No, that's not how a Warlaw operates.

Kosh was there for whatever reason, the moment he sensed that telepathy being used. That was [01:12:00] the moment that Kosh probably began his process of intervening, whether it was heading over to there or whatever. So Kosh was very aware, I assume, of what was transpiring. Longo's mind what, what G'Kar was seeing and shows that moment after, after he got all of the information that, that the info dump on the Shadows.

But after revelation of, Londo and his shame to then say, now will appear to you as your father. And he doesn't say anything. That is, here's the thing about Kosh as a Vorlon. I, I, I think Kosh is the closest of the Vorlons to what you might say their shepherding role was.

JOSH: Mm-hmm.

JOHN: Um, uh, and, and they refer to, you know, uh, uh, Lorien met Kosh, you know, so Kosh's been around enough to, to have met the first sentient being of the universe, you know, of the galaxy. So he's there like, yeah, okay, now's the time to intervene. I'm gonna, I'm going to nudge him in this direction and see what we can do. He wasn't ready [01:13:00] before, but this is such a massive moment. Um, I, he, here's what I, I equated to this just a moment I have to, is somebody going on a psychedelic journey.

Now a lot of people think of that as you go to an EDM music festival and you drop acid. That's not really what psychedelics have been historic. We all indigenous populations in particular have really centuries and millennia of experience with this, that when you go through a mind altering, psychedelic experience with a chemical substance, you have guides there usually in the form of shamans.

They're,

JOSH: Oh, that's true. That's

JOHN: they're not there to tell you what to do. They're there to shepherd you through the process because without that, you get lost. You lose your mind. In some cases, uh, you, you can re-traumatize yourself. There are all kinds of downsides to using psychedelics, from what I understand. Um, can't say I have myself.

I'm very curious on the literature about it. It's fascinating to me. But looking what indigenous cultures do with it blows my mind. Maybe one day, because the idea is shaman's there to shepherd you. [01:14:00] So G'Kar has just done this. He's, he, he's changed his mind fundamentally. He's gotten into the mind of somebody else, violated them horrifically, and now it's like, okay, well what's next?

G'Kar was already playing a key role in the resistance. He was already inquiring the buildup was, he was like, what are you all up to? I know you're up to something, the Shadows. But he was doing it from the very G'Kar season one approach of like, I will find out. I wanna know so that I can utilize this to save my people from a form of position of strength.

That we will get new weapons, we'll get new allies. We will rebel and fight off the, and Tori and then make them pay. That was where G'Kar was up until this episode, even as he was learning more about nuance and compassion and the different levels of how they operates. Now he's primed, but he could go either way.

He would go mad or not. That's the psychedelic trip. So Kosh intervenes, and this is the point at which a slight nudge can go any direction, and it would is not even a guaranteed outcome, but he does it. Kosh appears as his father and says in, in these [01:15:00] lines that you, that are just brilliant. You know, we must, you know, we must sacrifice each other if the whole are to be saved.

You know, some of us may not make it, but the point is not revenge. This, this conflict. It doesn't matter who started it saying that to somebody who has literally watched their world. Bombarded away who's lost, watched the suffering o of his people, and then, and then having this moment of being told. But at this point, it doesn't matter who started it, because in the end, what does it matter if no one is left afterwards?

And we all like know that intellectually, but how do you feel that, how do you get to that point? Oof. that was a moment. And so he sees his father, you know, hanging by a tree killed by the cent to, as, as it was his memory. Then his father appears fully capable, you know, fully, fully healed right there.

And is talking to him and saying, yeah, you're missing the point. The fight. You got the wrong fight. You're fighting the wrong battle. And you have [01:16:00] to, you know, this, this, there's a bigger game at play. And it's not just about fighting the, it's not even, he doesn't even say, oh, you're fighting the Shadows. He was fighting for these greater, very humanistic principles of fighting for everyone.

That includes the Centauri.

Oof.

JOSH: there's a line that he has that, really struck me. Um, you paraphrased a part of it, He says, it doesn't matter who started at G'Kar, it only matters who's suffering.

JOHN: Oh, that's it. That's it right there.

JOSH: And that's like, it's, it's so,

profound. And so it's like, it's like you wanna of

grab so many people by the shoulders and shake them until they understand that.

JOHN: Yeah. And then weirdly, you also wanna like give 'em a hug and say like, listen, we're suffering. You're suffering. All the conflicts that are happening in the world today. I could name a hundred of them, you [01:17:00] know, and you say, it doesn't matter who started it. Look at who's suffering. that one breaks me down.

that, that line breaks you down. It was, it was written to break us down and, and it, and it worked so well. But it's, it's a, it, I think that's one of those moments of profound truth you get from the writing in this show. It's meant to, it's meant to harness a lot of these philosophical notions that we've been exposed to many times.

This is, this is not like, you know, JMS is some prophet here. He's writing what's been written, the wisdom of the, of, of us all over the ages, and now it's done in the scatter. A Vorlon is doing that and saying this, and G'Kar begins to realize it in that moment. You know, that, wait a second. This isn't about who's gonna come out on top. No one's gonna come out of it. No one comes out of it in, in, in the end. And I think Kosh Iss still leaving room, Kosh Kosh is definitely leaving room G'Kar to make [01:18:00] his choice for G'Kar to see, to choose to see or not what's going to happen. , and that's the leap of faith that, you make as opposed to telling somebody specifically what to do. And that's, you know, and I, I won't, I won't go into too many spoilers of that. And we also go way, way over time. The Vorlons lose their way later on because they lose that concept. They, they, they now believe, you know, at some point later this year, they're, they're like, no, you just follow our rules no matter what.

Like, we're here to tell you what to do. And it's just, wow, no, you bring somebody along and you let them realize it.

And G'Kar then sees that in, in ways that, wait a second, I have to reframe myself on this. There is a fight to be fought. This isn't about, walking away from everything. It's about saying, I've had it wrong. And, and, and there's nothing more humbling and empowering than realizing you've gotten your perspective wrong, but now you can take the next steps.

And [01:19:00] that's what G'Kar does at the end of this. Now, you know, he, he, he pleads, he pleads guilty. No contest to 

JOSH: Yeah. 

JOHN: It is just a moment of, he's like, yep, and I'm, I'm happy to do what needs to come next. Like, that's, that's just where it is. And he beca this, this is his journey to becoming what I, what I wanna sort of call like the, the happy warrior.

You know? Uh, he, he, he's not there to make trouble for the sake of trouble to exercise, might for the sake of might he's there to, to, to learn and ponder and now share with others. He says, keep the book of G'Quan, you know, uh, to Garibaldi, you know, uh, I, I I'm closer to the source, you know? Uh, it's a beautiful thing.

I, I think that we all have those moments of revelation in our lives. Does it really matter if a Vorlon nudged it? Uh, as much? I don't, I don't, I don't know. I, I think, I think if you can take it from yourselves, I mean, people have had revelations for all kinds of reasons. They see, they see something, uh, you know, a cloud in the sky, in the right shape can trigger your mind to go down a direction that all of a sudden you realize something [01:20:00] profound.

I. Like that doesn't take away anything from it. So I I, I didn't expect this episode to end that way. When I, even when I watch it now, I'm like, wait, this is that episode. This is the episode where he gets that great, uh, revelation. But it's, he, he doesn't get it Like it was just handed to him on, on, on a platter.

It's now you gotta do the work. Like I'm giving you the next step and a bit of a course correction here. What are, what, what are you gonna, what are you gonna do with that G'Kar? And he had to go, he had to go down to the darkest place in him to, to, to see that.

JOSH: Yeah. the other detail about that scene and that moment in that scene, where he hears that, through, the person of his father. And then, Kosh is revealed, G'Kar. He breaks down. He weeps, he wails.

JOHN: Yeah.

JOSH: Because you're right. He was completely broken down and, he's crying because, I mean, so many reasons.

One of them is probably, you know, he realizes misguided he has [01:21:00] been, and how he has to, you know, reorient himself. I mean, this show, it's so good.

JOHN: do you know one thing that he doesn't have in that moment? So he cries and he breaks, but you know what? He doesn't have shame.

JOSH: mm.

JOHN: he doesn't go down the road of shame for who he's been. he accepts this has been his life's journey to become the person he is. And, and that's, that's something that I think is really important, both as an issue to talk about, but from, from a character perspective, is that when, when shame is your primary motivating factor, really bad decisions come really.

And really bad feelings come from that too. I mean, everything is warped and manipulated by shame. And warped is really the, the key word. G'Kar comes out of this, probably weeping for the mistakes, for the [01:22:00] pain and the suffering that he's caused for the miss. How wrong he got it. But that type of crying is also cathartic, crying.

It was a break from the past to be reborn in another moment. And, and that's why he later says in, in, in this line, the end of this season that I've quoted in my life so many times in moment, you know, moment of transition and revelation, but he ends season three with a line that this had the feeling of both being a moment of transition and a moment of revelation. And all we know is that the future is always born in pain. And he wasn't saying that meaning a masochistic kind of pain. He was saying that that process is profoundly painful and we all go through it. We know at the end of season three, Sheridan is going through it. A painful death of a sort. Well, in reality too, it's always born in pain.

And, and he's bearing in pain. He is crying in pain, and then he, and he has to go on to the [01:23:00] next step. Londo doesn't go down. That same, doesn't make the same choices. He doesn't make, he doesn't choose that path. Londo carries his shame with him up until the very end. And that's the tragedy of Londo Mollari is that he never, he never sheds his shame.

And that shame is what makes him vulnerable to Morden. It's the shame that makes him vulnerable to Mordon's later manipulations to get him back in the fold, to blame Lord Reefa for the poisoning his lover. All these things, the shame carried with him, blinds him and warps him.

And that he finally takes his last chance to try to make things right and G'Kar is there for it,

JOSH: Yeah.

JOHN: and they both end the same way. Fascinating.

JOSH: One other observation that I just realized, you know, we are reminded in this episode that I. there are no Narn telepaths. but, once upon a time, there were, and we know that, they were eradicated by the Shadows. And what I just realized through this conversation, you know, the Vorlons have manipulated all the other races [01:24:00] except for the last thousand years

they haven't been able to influence the Narn in the same way until this moment.

JOHN: Oh, oh, oh. Is that what you think it is? Is that they, they couldn't really appear in the same way

JOSH: Right.

JOHN: because you have to be somewhat telepathically receptive. Interesting.

And with the use of telepaths, which are used against the Shadows,

JOSH: right. So,

JOHN: not, they're also not useful pawns.

JOSH: Exactly. Exactly. So that's what I'm saying.

JOHN: Oh, oh, that's interesting. Yeah, because, and then like the Vorlons ain't perfect. They are. They are also the problem. Oh man. And now he sees that and now they're sort of like, well, I can. G'Kar is the one with this. I mean, a and, and then I, I always assumed that in that final moment, Kosh is appearing as G'Quan,

know, a as he sort of did when, when he rescued Sheridan at the end of season two.

And that's what they see there. So, but the, the Book of G'Quan is a [01:25:00] physical object in this series. It is one of the few physical manifestations you have of spirituality, that's durable for the show. And, that's why it's so interesting to watch, you know, Garibaldi learning Narn to, to get through some of it and Oh wow.

But yeah, the, the Vorlons finally be able to influence, and I, I, I wanna say like I, I think like Kosh got it right here, but Kosh has made mistakes and missteps and, and, and that's why we're building to the point, which is, you know, further in the season to where Kosh is really angry, because Kosh knows that the only you know that what he's being asked will require sacrifice.

He's not ready to die. He's been alive for how many years and years and years. And that's sort of the wait, maybe I didn't have it right the whole time.

JOSH: No. Yeah. When Sheridan confronts him in, um, interludes and examinations, it's a, it's a really intense scene. Um, and Sheridan's got some, know,

JOHN: he's got some ammo to back up his claims. He really, he really does. And, and Sheridan is not a true believer, but that's, that's the brilliant part about Sheridan. He's not the true believer. [01:26:00] He, he believes in principles, but not so much that they're absolute, he believes in his, in his people, he'll support them, but he will also do what's, you know, he, he will also stand up to them when there are moments.

So that's, that, that's sort of what I, I, I respect about that character amongst the most. But yeah, this, this episode layers so much into it from, from, from building Seasons four story to, to everything else, to reminding us at the very beginning. That we're still in this world. And then, and then you find out right after this, you know, I, I feel like we, we sort of had a come down from, uh, a G'Kar violating Londo to the reassurance that, okay, well the dust issue and the trafficking of dust is gonna be limited now.

Okay, so that's, that's that. Um, and then there's the gut punch weight or the revelation to say, oh, PsiCorps created dust.

JOSH: Of course they did.

JOHN: I'm like, oh, [01:27:00] these, 

JOSH: It's like you fucking people. 

JOHN: like, they're always, they're always involved in something. And, and this is, this is the thing about people who believe that they're right in everything.

They'll always do something, they'll cover up. And for this whole episode, we think that Bester is there. Like, well, at least this time, he's the good guy. And they give you that last moment of like, no, you know what? This is all his fault too. This is all, and he doesn't say like, oh, we've captured dust and now we get to keep people safe.

It's like, no, we got it back into the hands of humans where it belongs. That language 

is so Earth First bullshit. You know, that that's where all that is at least is back in the hands of humans. It's like, oh, here we go. Here we go all over again. So you know that the ride is about to start back up again with Bester and the PsiCorps.

They never stop. Wow.

That episode had had so much more than I the, then, then I thought in it, um, you know, going, going into the next episode, I I watched them out of order, [01:28:00] uh, to some extent. I, uh, I was watching 'em in order and then I would jump around and I was like, oh, Exogenesis isn't really an episode I need to watch.

But I didn't even think Dust to Dust was an episode I had to watch. I just was gonna, I just ended up watching them all. and then I, I was thinking about, okay, well how, how are these episodes linked and, and how do they go to the overall themes? But I realized as I was watching the next episode that the idea that this happens over and over again was really core to that episode.

So here we have in Dust to Dust, sort of, we say, oh, well, you know, God, people just seem to regularly, get themselves into these pickles of like, falling for authoritarianism, but falling for like, you know, strong man. And here we are, like, oh, there's this entire species out there. Initially were suspect, you know, what are, what, what are they there for?

They, they, merge with other organic life forms and preserve the knowledge of all they've experienced and lived, so that when the darkness comes, that not specifically when say another dark age comes, they will be there to, share this, with the civilizations that, that have lost [01:29:00] it.

And I thought, well, that sounds kind of overly dramatic. I mean, almost Vorlon in it's, uh, in it's drama. But you realize, oh wait, they've been watching this unfold. They've been watching the Shadows and the Vorlons. They, they're watching what's happening on Earth. they know that this cycle happens, that people make this mistake and that they can't be revealed and their power can't be used, you know, for, for advantage of one group over the other.

But it, it was a good episode to follow this because it continued the idea of like, let's expand what it is, what the real threat is. The threat isn't just one group taking over another. The threat is this idea of power for all sakes, conflict, and that, and ultimately it'll burn us all. So the revelation to G'Kar is if you don't get your focus right on this and realize that you've been fighting the wrong battle, we all lose.

We all lose. It doesn't matter who started it, we all lose. And these creatures, the, the rizzi, right? Is that how you pronounce it? Uh, they see that as a very likely outcome. They're like, yeah, you are all gonna lose. [01:30:00] Everyone's gonna lose. We're gonna preserve this. The shadow majors, I mean the, the technomages have already left.

They're like peacing out. They're like, oh, we see this happening. And now the Andres are like, this is why we're here is to preserve these, these beautiful memories and the civilizations that you don't even know existed, over time. And I love how that episode ties in with Marcus and his friend there.

It was very much a, you know, fits in with what the Rangers do. They're not just fighters. They are philosophers. They are poets. They do this very Minbari way. You know, that, that, that, yeah, he has to understand, like preserving that knowledge is really important. but knowledge is also the ultimate threat to power.

It can give people power, it can also take it away. It'll also a threat to those who are manipulating it. So like what could be a bigger threat to President Clark or the Shadows even than knowledge and knowing what they're really, what they're really up to. And those little things we were referring to earlier of like the subtle digs of like, oh, there's something, subtle things.

There's stuff happening on Mars. We know this. [01:31:00] Like the episode builds in an interesting way, but I really like what they do with this Andrey.

JOSH: Yeah. You know, 

Duncan even says, when he's describing, to Marcus what it was like he was saying, um, which, by the way, I noticed, I almost feel like JMS must have recently seen, Blade Runner when he was writing this. because he gives, Duncan some lines that are very reminiscent of what, Rutger Howard says at the

JOHN: Yes.

JOSH: Blade Runner, but then he says, I knew everything. And you're right. what is more of a threat to power or to authoritarianism than seeing the whole picture, seeing how it all works and seeing the cycles of history play out over and over again. you wouldn't, be susceptible to that sort of control and you would know how to beat it.

JOHN: Ask any propagandist what their ultimate enemy is, and it is a well educated population with critical thought.

JOSH: Yeah, which is why they're attacking all these [01:32:00] universities and they're destroying the Department of Education. And, banning, books that have inconvenient facts, you know, making it against the law to, teach about other, perspectives and experiences. can't talk about slavery.

you can't, admit trans people exist. because if you start to allow for the idea that there are other perspectives on life in the world that other people have and they're just as valid and legitimate,

that makes it hard to have that iron control. You really have to control the narrative completely.

JOHN: Yeah. Every time we've seen something like this happen, there's a decision on what the acceptable facts are, what the acceptable forms of education are, and anybody who is outside of that is, is a threat. in the show it becomes, well, we don't have a homeless problem. We were discussing that before.

You know, the reframing the literal denial of reality. But it becomes, but I say this, [01:33:00] therefore it's true. Um, we redefine and say, oh, well, anybody who does have a problem, they're just mentally ill. Don't worry about them. You know, that's, that, that, that, that's this like, you know, very toxic in today's language, but it's, it's, it's what you need to do is you, you need to be able to shape reality to where people will look at an object and see what they're told to see instead of what they can critically analyze.

Very rarely do humans look at the same thing identically.

That's the beauty of different perspectives.

JOSH: And to be fair, like that is almost a literal impossibility. you want to get technical about it, we don't like idea though that, quote unquote objective reality is really as mutable as it is.

JOHN: Yeah. It's a tough one.

JOSH: Yeah. 

JOHN: If you, if you think about it though. So instead of memory being stored in some sort of relatively static data storage medium,

JOSH: That will probably become obsolete 

JOHN: op, 

JOSH: short order.

JOHN: they, they, they're storing it. The [01:34:00] rizzi are themselves the receptacle of that, but they themselves are life forms, living conscience, sentient beings. So with their own biases, flaws and all I.

So, yeah, that's the choice for the sort of repository, to receive this through their own experiences. And obviously they're, they're sharing what they've experienced in the various hosts over the however many, many, many, many, many years they've existed. so there's nothing perfectly objective there.

And nor do they ever use that language. They're not talking about perfect information, perfect truth. They're just talking about memories, wisdom, experiences, and knowledge and, and, and that all together. is gonna be from their, from their perspective and so much so that, that they probably had access to ways to neutralize foes. What did they do? They didn't, they, they did lock up. [01:35:00] Franklin and, Marcus, but they weren't like, we wanna kill you. could see that if they were really forced to, they, you know, would have for their own safety. But that was like the last of the last of last options. And what was the thing that they ultimately did to convince Marcus?

It wasn't to say, well, we'll find a way to disarm him. He might have been able to find a way to disarm him. He sacrifices himself or he sacrifices his link to this Z and, and can never go back. And that's so interesting to me because it's like that, that was the choice they made, was to say, yes, this is what we do.

We share knowledge and we're going to share that knowledge with you. We're gonna share our truth with you that what we're telling you is true. We're not here, taking over host bodies and doing this. We're, we're, we're choosing willing, willing people who, um, Don't have much left for them in life.

And her, that, that was such an interesting moral question, around that, that's what I love when, when these shows get to explore those moral questions, but they weren't taking over because they judged. Oh, this is somebody with, with a sad life. It was a [01:36:00] cooperative process.

It would you be willing to do this? Let me lay out the facts for you. A again, that's the idea of sharing the information you have, sharing all the truth you have, and then person makes the decision from there. And that goes back, G'Kar is now up to make the decision. Yes, he's influenced by Kosh, but now the decision is his, it was shared with him.

What are you gonna do with it? Whatcha you gonna take? You just got the ball. What do you do with it now? there, rizzi make that same choice available to every lost soul they find is, Hey, here's an option. We can offer you, and here's what we can tell you about it, the sacrifice you'll make, the benefits you'll get from joining with us, , and everything else.

So sort of, well, I think of 'em as the anti Borg, but the real, the, but the sci-fi comparison I really make to them is foundation. You know, foundation. The idea is that through, you know, Harry Seldon and, and, uh, what was it called? Um, psycho history, you know, that they can, in a, in, in a form of a computer and data and academic practice that they can preserve the, not predict and then preserve the [01:37:00] knowledge, for the dark age of, humanity across the galaxy.

that's a little more, physically objective. Like, we will preserve this and then we'll keep it. And this is, well, we're, no, we're, we're gonna remember it and then we're gonna carry it forward quietly, secretly through all of the different civilizations of the galaxy.

JOSH: You know, along those lines, something else that's kind of interesting about it, if you remember how Delenn, describes her belief system. Uh, you know, she says we are the universe made manifest trying to understand itself.

JOHN: Yeah.

JOSH: And it's almost as if the rezi are the universe. Like antibodies are not antibodies, but it's like a, it's like a fail safe. so that if life or sent life wipes itself out, it will retain the experiences, the learning and the knowledge.

JOHN: There'll be something to start from. Again, it's not just, it's not just wiping out the past as now it's just all gone. Nothing of what was learned was gone. And [01:38:00] JMS loves exploring this notion because in deconstruction, falling stars, we, you know, earth does go back into a dark age 500 years, uh, from this point

And I think it's sort of part of that rhyming, cyclical nature of history that JMS talks about. But yeah, that's, that, that's something that I, I, I, I'm, I'm so glad he got the opportunity to make that episode, because that wasn't gonna case season.

JOSH: I love that episode. I love that episode so much. Like I still, yeah. And obviously we'll, cover it in more detail when we get there, 

but there's 

JOHN: but that's the fun of doing this, is that all these things, they always tie in together. You're not just doing an episode by episode, it all does tie together. That's why you go down these little, uh, you know, we go down these excursions to other parts, other parts of the story, and an an episode that when I, I don't remember watching Exogenesis.

I, if you asked me like, well, what was your experience with this? There was none. I don't recall watching this episode at all. Rewatching it. I remember that this happened. I don't remember the episode, uh, as far as a visceral experience [01:39:00] watching it. Um, but I'm realizing, you know, like, oh, this, this was a really important episode from the little lines that were dropped.

Marcus' mission, his relationships with people, and inform us on the station to the Jay-Z Franklin, uh, figuring that out. Like all, all these things there. And then of course, what we talked about earlier in the show was, um, Lieutenant Corwin, that's this episode is how are they going to determine whether somebody is, is, I don't wanna use the word, see, this isn't the term, it's not morally flexible.

It's a, a able to see morality from more than just the hierarchy 

they're familiar with. And, and

JOSH: Sorry.

JOHN: yeah. I mean, and, and, and we learn what, we learn, what we think is gonna be with one character. And, and we, and we get to see how that unfolds with him.

JOSH: We also have a counter example of, uh, uh, Marcus who, who sort of, uh, the flip side of Corwin, uh, uh, someone who's operating outside [01:40:00] the hierarchy

JOHN: Mm-hmm.

JOSH: and all the, uh, the problems that that has, right? So because like they're talking in this episode about like, uh, you know, oh, you know, Marcus, like, you know, where does he fit in?

Can we trust him? Why is he doing what he's doing? Hey, what do you sort of do here anyway, uh, you know, it's, it's, I mean, I don't have any profound insight except to say it's like the, um, the inverse of the situation, uh, presented with, uh, Corwin.

JOHN: But it's about 

JOSH: that, right? Yes. 

JOHN: but it's about, it's about trust.

Um, and, and at the end, they've established that trust. Say, well, we didn't know his, we completely understand how he fits in here. But Franklin says at the end, he sort of reports back to very, but yeah, no, we, we, we can work with him. 

JOSH: And what's also cool about that is that, uh, you know, again, uh, this is an episode, uh, like you, I don't know that I recall the very first [01:41:00] time I watched it, and it's certainly not one that I've revisited that often. Uh, but, um, you know, I didn't realize until I just re-watched it that, um, you know, this is the beginning of the, uh, Franklin Marcus, uh, marriage

JOHN: Yeah. Yeah, it is. 

JOSH: is in this episode.

It's the first time that they're sort of,

JOHN: I love when they had to be married that was so ahead of its time,

JOSH: no. Yeah. And so like, yeah, no, it was

JOHN: so matter of fact,

and, and, and, and, they, they're 

JOSH: And they thought it was funny and they thought it was, uh, the humor was not, uh, because, um, they were men. The humor was because they can't stand each other.

JOHN: right. Exactly. That's, that, that's that like a matter of fact. That's the, that's by the way, that's the future I want. And people say like, this is the future. That's the future I want. And, and, and, and that's why the humor is still there, um, is because, oh, we have our same problems, [01:42:00] um, and we don't get along.

But the two, the two of them make such a great, uh, duo unexpectedly, uh, and they're great operationally together as well. So, um, you know, the doctor gets to be so much more than a doctor in this show, but this, so now when people ask me like, all right, which, which episodes of Babylon 5 do I watch? And I'm just like, all of them.

Just watch all of them. Just watch the whole show. You know, I, I, I can give you a list, uh, for the, for the ARC episodes. You can definitely limit it down 

and get the punch from it and then what you need.

JOSH: You miss so much.

JOHN: you do, and, and, and us talking here proves that, just that, that the, the care that goes into it, um, for every little subtle detail, it, it really is a joy to go back and rewatch that.

And I think that's why it worked. I was watching it the first time. I didn't know why it worked. I, I've oftentimes haven't had trouble communicating to why, to people why this works. And, and it's, it's because he didn't just get the story right. In fact, sometimes the story didn't [01:43:00] work. I actually, I have a lot of bones to pick with how the Vorlons are done, and I think that has to do more with the compression of how season four and five and the production's canceled.

But yet it all still works because each episode is crafted well with the characters, with the, so y very rarely, I mean, people talk about some of the first season episodes that you can buy with, and it is true because the show show changed pretty fundamentally going into season two. Um, I, I, I think the vibe changes with the new captain and everything else.

There's probably some stuff you can get through with that season one that you don't really need, but I still love watching 

all of it. 

JOSH: even so though, like there are a handful of episodes in in season one that I don't love. but even those have great things in them.

JOHN: They had great character moments.

JOSH: Like there's, um, TKO is, that episode with like the space, uh, 

JOHN: Boxing space. Boxing or, yeah. Yeah,

JOSH: Yeah. Uh but in that episode, Ivanova has a final conversation with her father and, the boxer that, Garibaldi has a relationship with. he has a [01:44:00] line. You never were good at watching your back Garibaldi, and at the end of the season he gets shot in the back.

JOHN: And, and now I'm thinking when Ivanova goes off to find, to try to find Sheridan on Za. She hears her father's voice in the eyes of the Shadows

in the space. And there's another moment when they're liberating earth and she refers to her family, ask, you have family. Uh, uh, that I was literally thinking back now, I didn't remember it was the episode, TKO, but I remembered her father in those moments.

That's why this show everything works and why Yes, if you can watch the whole show through, because those little moments, are what really give you this beautiful insight into the characters. I think that's why we really like these characters in ways that, uh, I, I connect to, uh, that I don't get in a lot of other shows, um, 

JOSH: I miss when TV shows were allowed to have meh episodes.

JOHN: I'm right there with you.

JOSH: something about this episode, even as I was [01:45:00] watching it, it's not mind blowing, but it was a fun way to spend 43 minutes. And I liked spending time with these characters. So that thing that you were just talking about, the reason why you, you feel close to these characters is because of all of the quote unquote, downtime. They were always there.

JOHN: Mm-hmm.

JOSH: Like even if the episode wasn't your favorite episode and the way TV works now, ironically, the TV landscape has learned all the wrong lessons from Babylon 5.

it's just the arc stuff

JOHN: Yep.

JOSH: and none of the other stuff.

JOHN: I exactly where we're going with that. Yeah.

JOSH: And there's also a thing, I'm going a bit out on a limb. there's also a thing, um, with attention and focus, where, you know, even the very question, okay. Like, what episodes of this show can I skip? You know? It's like, if you wanna watch the show, like sit and find out for yourself.

JOHN: Yeah. It, it, it, it's a bigger commitment than a lot of modern shows have shorter runs, but that, but that's the, [01:46:00] well, and we were, and we were watching it on a weekly basis back then, but that was the point, is you got this long-term thing, um, what you said is Data's Day. Day's Day on Star Trek: The Next Generation people say like, uh, because we don't have modern Babylon 5.

Sadly though, there was the animated film recently. Um, there's a lot of modern Star Trek and critiques and all. And one of the difficulties I find with modern tv, especially Modern Star Trek, which in some of the shows, I don't even know who the other bridge characters are, 'cause they don't have episodes like Data's Day, which is just an episode where nothing big happens.

It, it, it is seemingly not tied into very much else, but it's about the characters and what they do on the ship. And maybe they go perform as, and, and it's an episode that when you're watching, you're like, cool, I just watched another episode. But it, it doesn't leave the same, uh, it's not like, uh, uh, an episode you say, oh my God.

The, the, the thing that happened, you know, Picard was, I mean was Assimilator or something like that. Like, but that's what gives you the [01:47:00] characters and that's why you remember everything about data. When I think about data, I don't think about like. All these episodes, I usually think about the downtime episodes true for all the other characters.

And they, , the beauty is that they had the time with 22 episodes to do that, that it, it's a math problem. TV used to be 22 episodes and of any show, even before there were arcs, so many of those episodes were just like, you're hanging out with these characters as they do the things that they do.

And that's why you watch the show. And then some episodes really punch up in terms of like, oh my God, did you see that one? We miss that with eight episode seasons. You know, we don't get there anymore. And, and I feel like I, I miss that. I miss being able to, casually stroll through a TV show rather than, okay, you got seven episodes.

Everything happens in seven episodes. Every episode is a must watch. It's really intense. It's like, that's great. And, and I think that's great for a mini series, but not everything.

JOSH: and that makes everything so high stakes. because, know, the other problem is that there's just so [01:48:00] much stuff out there, so I. if you, start watching a show and you hit episode three and it kind of hits like a bum note or like a so-so note

JOHN: Check out.

JOSH: Yeah.

You check out 

JOHN: and a Star Trek would never have survived that. 

JOSH: no, 

JOHN: that.

JOSH: no. It's funny. you were talking about, season one of B5, if you compare, the ratio of good episodes to bad episodes of season one of B5 to season one of TNGI

mean, it's. 

JOHN: different ratio. B5 wins hands down. And, you get to go into its second season and look at what we get, you know? And. I mean, there, there are other examples. I mean, I always remember hearing about Cheers was this example of like, uh, low ratings, specifically at abysmally low ratings for the first season.

There was something that they trusted in it. And all of a sudden it becomes one of the most famed shows of the eighties into the nineties. So that's not possible now. And, and Babylon 5 as it is now, would not get made, which is why I'm very skeptical. All the talk about a remake, I don't think it's ever gonna happen.

and I almost don't think it [01:49:00] can happen in this landscape because where, where else are you gonna get a show that even if you get Four Seasons, that's 88 episodes, where are you gonna get 88 episodes and the funding for that?

JOSH: Yeah, I mean, it's something I don't need. I have a sort of morbid curiosity and I do have trust in JMS. I am curious how he would explore the same themes and how, his approach has evolved in the last 30 years. It's like, that would be interesting, but I don't need it.

I'm also very sick of having to reinvent everything.

JOHN: Yeah. And, and that's the thing JMS has done amazing other work which that did get cut off early, but there was so much in that like do do new stuff and, and occasionally I think a nice little sentimental revisit can be fun. A one-off, things like that. I enjoy, I enjoy the animated, a movie for what it was.

But you know, we, we got a real, it was a magic time when he got 22 episodes in a season. I love that. That's your point, bringing up this, is that the, the, this episode in [01:50:00] particular, exogenesis. Wouldn't have been an episode in a 10 episode run. Um, but it also gave us so much so that when we look back and we say, oh, and, and there's a lot, and, and all these shows that you look back and you say, wait, what episode did that happen?

And I said, G'Kar's revelation. I would've said, oh, that happened like right before Severed Dreams in a really important episode.

JOSH: Grey 17 is missing is very often the episode singled out as like the worst episode of the series. I do want to cover it because I'm curious what we will find in there.

JOHN: Yeah.

JOSH: But the B story of Grey 17 is Missing is when Delenn becomes Ranger One and Neroon tries to assassinate her, and Marcus saves her.

JOHN: Yeah.

JOSH: like, I don't know, Delenn becoming Ranger one and replacing Sinclair seems like a pretty big 

JOHN: It's a big deal. And that again, that that whole thing with Neroon literally trying to stop her by any means of becoming a Ranger. One, he's devouted in [01:51:00] his views and belief to then be the one in the, in, in, in the following season to sacrifice himself for Delenn.

JOSH: So if you tell someone to skip Grey 17 is Missing,

JOHN: You 

miss 

that. 

You're right. So, all right, that's gonna be my new line. It's like, which, which episode? Just watch the whole show. Watch the whole show. Enjoy it. And laugh at the parts that don't, don't work. but understand, and, and, and to those, you know, much younger than us, you know, it'd be like, understand, this is the way it used to be.

You know, we used to have 22 episodes in a season, and you got to know your characters.

JOSH: Yeah. So John, any idea what we're gonna watch next time?

JOHN: Well, I mean the, the next couple episodes, like this, this is the train outta the station going at, you know, accelerating speed every episode. we can probably just go episode by episode right through Severed Dreams. 

JOSH: yeah, so I think from here it's, uh, messages from Earth is next,

JOHN: uh, yeah, and, and,

JOSH: then that's the, the [01:52:00] trilogy. is, uh, Messages from Earth and, Point of No Return and Severed Dreams. 

JOHN: I mean it's, it's, it's going right in and, uh, I'm fascinated with what, what people think. I, I didn't expect to get this close, this quickly, but it also makes a lot of sense. Um, again, like I expected to sort of meander through the show and have some vague points of parallel. It's, it's been shocking to me how many points we've made happen in real time.

You were talking about the university's speech, everything else. Well, that's the beginning of the episode. We just, with Dust to Dust is, is, is that very notion where you're getting, oh, it's really happening this way, but they're safeguards. Captain Sheridan is still there and we're seeing that. Well, right now the lawyers are still fighting it.

We still have some things, but every day it's getting harder. And now Yeah, like what is that point? I, I think that hearing, I don't, don't wanna put too much hope in anything at this point. I, I was, you know, but hearing a surprising number of Republican senators going completely head into this issue of the Signal app usage and, and, and, and [01:53:00] leaks around that is pretty substantial like. That it's gonna provoke an equal and opposite reaction ultimately too. So, and that's what this show explores like to be. So be, as more happens in B5, President Clark pushes back even, even harder. So I'm really curious to see what happens. I mean, I, I'm under no delusion recording this, that there are necessarily Vorlons and Independent station out there to help save us.

And, uh, well the Vorlons don't really save us, but, you know, extra powers. The, the other things like, what's gonna be really interesting for us to see, well, where does it divide? Post severed dreams and an hour tracking of what happens? Um, what, what do people do? Uh, and then I hope that I hope it doesn't get to the point where we're doing, a, uh, episode like, uh, now, what is it called?

end game. Basically, I. you know, season 20 of episode, uh,

of season four. I

hope that that's not where we end be like, well, this is what we just went through. That, that, that's the, that, that, that's not what I wanna see.

JOSH: no, [01:54:00] not at all. I mean, don't want to get to Severed Dreams because the thing that finally instigates, the decision to break away, is, the bombing of civilians on Mars

JOHN: yeah, that's gonna, that's gonna be a moment. And we may even wanna hold off on Severed dreams. You know, go sort of straight through and say like, this is where this point of no return is the point of no return. But even then. That's when, lady Berlin and returns widow shows up.

JOSH: Majel Barrett Roddenberry.

JOHN: Brilliant, Brilliant episode.

That episode sort of leaves with like, oh, they know it's coming, but even then as viewers, we didn't know Severed Dreams was going to happen or that that was the next.

JOSH: Right. We still thought that somehow they were gonna avoid this.

JOHN: And I think there'll be that moment, you know, there may be a moment for us now where we say, oh, that was our Mars, that that was the moment. The difference is, you know, well, hey, I mean, to today, Canada is, is making a full-throated, you know, opposition and [01:55:00] break with normal relations of the US.

We'll probably pick that up in the next episode. They're saying enough, they're not waiting. They're saying, enough is enough. They're standing up and saying, your behavior is unacceptable. You know, and as a people, I mean, not that they're Babylon 5, but they are very close to the US in terms of culture, language, and obviously, proximity, being on the same continent. And they're saying this is not acceptable.

We didn't do anything to provoke anything. And you are doing this to us. Why are you coming after your friends that people who've been there for you time and time again, and standing up? Well again, the more people that speak up, the more people that will speak up.

The more people that are silenced, the less likely people will speak up. So I'm looking for where people are talking and who's talking and who's standing up. And the more we see that, we get to the more hopeful parts of Severed Dreams. Because that episode leaves you with hope.

JOSH: Yes. But the very final shot is kind of ominous. I believe the civilian population surprises Sheridan and they applaud for him, for the stand that he took. And then the camera pushes in on a propaganda poster on the wall that's been sort of torn down, but not.

JOHN: Yeah. It was torn down the middle.

JOSH: That says, "Traitors Can't Hide."

JOHN: Yeah.

JOSH: And that's the note that it ends on.

JOHN: yeah. It's saying that no, we didn't just win the day and go onto the next episode. Like this is the beginning of the next page. It's not gonna be easy. Yeah. It's an intense time, an intense thing to be doing.

JOSH: So, okay. Next time, Messages from Earth. An episode with a misleadingly bland sort of a title, cause it's actually pretty, uh, momentous. But this is Last Best Hope leaving you with the idea that sometimes peace is just another word for surrender. [01:57:00]