112: The Cowichan Tribe Case: Unprecedented Uncertainty of BC Property Rights with Cassels Brock & Blackwell's Thomas Isaac

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Welcome back to the Cologne Real
Estate Podcast.

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Podcast.

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I'm your mortgage broker host,

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broker host, Taylor Atkinson.

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And I'm your real estate agent

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host, Matt Glenn.

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Merry Christmas, Taylor.

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Merry Christmas.

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You guys got down from Big White

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this weekend?
How was it?

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It was awesome.

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We stayed at Big White.

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Best client.

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I actually had that awesome place

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listed.

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He let us stay at his chalet on

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Feathertop in Big White for the
weekend.

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Stayed there with my family.

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It was fantastic.

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Such a nice place.

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Big white was awesome.

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Snow was out.

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We watched the fireworks on

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Saturday night.

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We let him, our two and a half

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year old Julian stay up late for
the fireworks.

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And like, I don't think fireworks
have ever landed so well with an

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audience member.

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He just screaming, laughing.

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He loved it so much.

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It was actually very awesome to

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see.

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It blows me way up there every

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weekend.

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they do the family carnival like

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they really go after that family
crowd it's awesome i love it man

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so we were up there for the
weekend we didn't ski we did

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everything else back in our like
man we need to get a place up here

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like you have one but like it is
so nice and like we didn't even do

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the thing that you're supposed to
do there and it had such a great

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weekend so it was awesome it was
such a good weekend and happy to

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kick off the holiday that way yeah
wicked how was your weekend you

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were doing nothing but good things
for the community yeah yeah we had

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our fourth annual uh i love it man
so we were up there for the

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weekend we didn't ski we did
everything else back in our like

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man we need to get a place up here
like you have one but like it is

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so nice and like we didn't even do
the thing that you're supposed to

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do there and it had such a great
weekend so it was awesome it was

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such a good weekend and happy to
kick off the holiday that way yeah

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wicked how was your weekend you
were doing nothing but good things

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for the community yeah yeah we had
our fourth annual charity

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Christmas event.

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We hosted a Barn Owl.

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We do a silent auction, which Big
White actually donated a basket

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for us to auction off, which was
awesome.

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A lot of local businesses donated.

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So yeah, we funders a bunch of

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money that way.

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We did our shuffleboard

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tournament, had a baby delivery
bedding pool because one of the

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ladies is, well... probably given
birth today.

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Like there's, I think there's six
hours left in the betting pool,

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but she's, she's getting induced
today.

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So yeah, lots of fun ways to
fundraise some money for local

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families in need.

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I haven't tallied it up yet, but

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we're probably close to about 5
,000 bucks this year, which is

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just awesome.

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So good for you for doing that.

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good for you for doing that.

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I want to say community is better

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because you're an idiot.

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Proud of you.

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That's awesome.

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Thank you.

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Likewise.

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Well, I can't take all the credit.

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Emily does a ton of the work for
it.

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Yeah.

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You know, so her as well.

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Yeah.

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We get to just.

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do something fun and get back to
the community.

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And yeah, lots of good friends
that get humbled by the process.

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So yeah, it's awesome.

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Speaking about being humbled and,

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you know, trying to navigate
something, you know, that's

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somewhat sensitive and difficult.

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Today we hosted Tom Isaac, an

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extremely knowledgeable lawyer
that practices Aboriginal law

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across the country and has spent
his entire career doing so.

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So, you know, I think anyone that
has been following the news in the

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last six months has probably seen
Cowichan Tribe.

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court case going on, specifically
mostly to Richmond.

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So far, but it does seem to be
bleeding to the rest of the

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province, for sure.

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It is definitely going to impact

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the rest of the province.

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We're very grateful to have Tom on

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the show.

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He articulates what's going on

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incredibly well to kind of
summarize what has happened and

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what is, you know.

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Yeah, because we've talked to him

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on Tuesday and there's been some
news since, there's been some news

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since, right?
A lot, yeah.

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So we'll just kind of start by
saying this has been... one of the

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longest court cases in Canada,
we'll just kind of start by saying

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this has been... one of the
longest court cases in Canada,

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although we're only really hearing
about it from the news side, you

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know, recently, but 513 hearing
days over the last five years.

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And the court's decision was to
award Aboriginal title, which

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essentially they're saying can
coexist with fee simple private

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ownership.

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And it just by law, it just

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cannot.

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So Tom kind of dives into that.

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And essentially, you know, from
that decision, we have 18 months

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until Everything can be submitted.

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It would likely then go to the

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Court of Appeal, which is the next
level up.

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And then from there, if it needs
to, it goes to the Supreme Court

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of Canada.

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And a similar case has happened in

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New Brunswick.

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And again, last week on, I believe

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it was Thursday or Friday, they
actually announced that they would

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not be moving forward with
awarding Aboriginal title.

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So they would be keeping fee
simple in place.

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place.

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So similar court case, just

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farther along, kind of a different
result in New Brunswick than what

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we have in BC.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And I think Tom alluded that that

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would kind of set the precedent in
BC now.

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Yeah.

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Totally different provinces,

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totally different, you know,
decision capacity.

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So, you know, I don't want to say
like it's going to happen here

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because it happened there, but it
was interesting to see that.

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In our episode, our episode, Tom
was looking forward to what was

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coming out of New Brunswick.

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So we have that answer.

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have that answer.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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You know, one of the quotes from

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the judge and I'll just paraphrase
it was essentially, you know, if

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they awarded Aboriginal title,
that would be the.

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you know furthest thing from
reconciliation like that is just

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not the way forward and you know
we kind of understand the irony of

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this situation and you know we
don't take it lightly like it's

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there's just no there's no
solution like how do you provide

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reconciliation on on something
like this it's just a very

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difficult scenario so yeah matt
and i are you know we just want to

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provide the content on our
platform and speak with someone

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that knows a lot more about this
than us so that's why we had tom

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on the shelf Yeah.

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And then Tom also in our show is

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calling on Premier Eby to start
making some statements and helping

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out a bit.

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And so our show is on Tuesday and

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on Wednesday, sounds like he did.

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So from Eby says, to face such

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dramatic, overreaching and
unhelpful court decisions as we

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have seen over the past couple of
months is deeply troubling.

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Premier said, we will fix this
because the uncertainty this case

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creates is toxic to the work we
have to do with First Nations and

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businesses and the economy that we
have to grow.

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It is hard to understate the
damage that could be done or has

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already been done to the public
support for the delicate,

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critical, and necessary work we
have to do with First Nations.

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So it sounds like David E .B.

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is kind of pissed about the

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rulings and wants to get them
figured out.

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Yeah, and he's also gone on record
again, this was very recently,

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that the province of B .C.

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will be offering $150 million to

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basically back financial
institutes so they have the

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security to either refinance or
complete on purchases in the

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Richmond area.

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No idea how that actually plays

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out.

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I think it's just a confidence

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play, right?
It is.

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Yeah.

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I mean, someone could say that the

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damage is kind of done.

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Anyone that has ownership in

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Richmond right now is probably
struggling for resale or lost

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value or just like that
uncertainty is going to cause a

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lot of stress.

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Even if the banks could refinance,

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like let's see appraiser going to
think about this.

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Well, yeah, like with the comps,
it's just going to affect the

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comps in the area, right?
Like things are not going to.

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likely sell.

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Tom Isaac actually points out, you

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know, it might be a little bit of
an opportunity.

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There was some optimism from him
in terms of like, this will get

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settled because the alternative
is, is impossible to think about.

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Well, and also where does it stop?
Is it just like, man?

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Yeah.

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It could be like a total, like

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major shift in real estate Canada.

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And this is like we said at the

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beginning, this is applicable.

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across the province you know we

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have i think what tom was saying
is you know some of the the

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longest history and most amount of
first nations tribes in canada so

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i think we have the most tribes
right like there's like 200 yeah

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there's over 200 yeah so all of
them have their treaty claims

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we're blessed with the culture but
this is something that needs a lot

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of attention and it probably
hasn't been getting a lot of

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attention or maybe some of the
wrong attention so anyways i think

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You know, we'll just let you guys
listen to Tom.

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He's fantastic.

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He also states that, you know, you

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can sign up for his newsletters
and blogs that he gets out there.

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He's also on the news quite a bit.

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So he is.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Super fortunate to have him.

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Yeah.

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So yeah, give it a listen and
hopefully you guys have a great

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Christmas and New Year's and we'll
see you guys in 2026.

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Yes, sir.

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All right.

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So enjoy the show, you guys.

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Merry Christmas.

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See you in 2026.

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Okay.

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Tom Isaac, thank you for joining
us on today's show.

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We've been patiently kind of
waiting to have a guest of your

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caliber.

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Can you just quickly kind of give

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00:07:55,460 --> 00:07:58,680
us a background of who you are and
what you're currently practicing?

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00:07:58,680 --> 00:07:59,180
Sure.

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00:07:59,180 --> 00:07:59,520
Sure.

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00:07:59,520 --> 00:08:01,600
So, well, my name's Tom Isaac.

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00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:02,920
I'm a lawyer.

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00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:05,760
I've been practicing in Aboriginal
law for... a long time, and I

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00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:07,520
started my career in the public
service.

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00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:09,160
My first job was with the
government of Saskatchewan, and

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00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:12,640
then went up to the Northwest
Territories and helped set up

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00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:14,360
Nunavut, and then I was Chief
Treaty Negotiator in British

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00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:14,480
Columbia.

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00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:16,480
And for the past 25 years, I have

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focused on an Aboriginal law
practice in every province of

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territory of Canada.

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00:08:25,020 --> 00:08:26,040
work primarily for industry and

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00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:26,780
public governments.

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00:08:26,780 --> 00:08:29,360
Not all those mandates are public.

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00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:30,940
Very proudly have started working
with some Indigenous governments

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00:08:31,220 --> 00:08:33,340
on, you know, the right matters
where we can add value.

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00:08:33,340 --> 00:08:35,020
And so I've been doing this my
whole career.

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00:08:35,020 --> 00:08:37,980
I've published a lot in the area.

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00:08:37,980 --> 00:08:40,720
I appear in a lot of courts across

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the country.

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00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:43,169
We have a large group.

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00:08:43,409 --> 00:08:43,830
Awesome.

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00:08:43,830 --> 00:08:45,270
Have you done any work within the,

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00:08:45,270 --> 00:08:47,050
like, West Cologne?
Any of you been there?

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00:08:47,050 --> 00:08:47,430
Oh, yeah.

283
00:08:47,430 --> 00:08:48,270
Yeah.

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00:08:48,350 --> 00:08:49,610
I'm very familiar with the Kelowna
area.

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00:08:49,610 --> 00:08:52,330
I've worked on some infrastructure
projects without getting into the

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00:08:52,330 --> 00:08:52,450
details.

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00:08:52,450 --> 00:08:54,430
And yeah, I know that area very

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00:08:54,650 --> 00:08:54,950
well.

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00:08:54,950 --> 00:08:56,630
Just bought a condo in Kelowna.

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00:08:56,630 --> 00:08:57,710
They're trying to help.

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00:08:57,710 --> 00:08:59,870
And actually very proud to now be

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00:08:59,870 --> 00:09:02,350
at least a partial resident of
Kelowna.

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00:09:02,350 --> 00:09:04,890
At least my son going to UBC is.

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00:09:04,890 --> 00:09:07,110
I'd like to hear that.

295
00:09:07,110 --> 00:09:08,950
Yeah, no, it was great.

296
00:09:08,950 --> 00:09:11,330
And I mean, there was a point when

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00:09:11,330 --> 00:09:13,930
I was in Kelowna, that whole area,
probably twice a month for at

298
00:09:13,930 --> 00:09:15,550
least three or four years.

299
00:09:15,550 --> 00:09:15,750
Oh, really?

300
00:09:15,750 --> 00:09:18,390
And, you know, you've got, well,
West Bank First Nation, got some

301
00:09:18,470 --> 00:09:20,530
very good memories of working with
them very productively, I might

302
00:09:20,530 --> 00:09:21,990
add, really?
on helping build out

303
00:09:21,990 --> 00:09:23,690
infrastructure for all people who
live in the area.

304
00:09:23,930 --> 00:09:24,110
Yeah.

305
00:09:24,350 --> 00:09:26,370
Well, I think, I mean, to jump on

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00:09:26,370 --> 00:09:30,560
today, because we have so much
information to cover, can we just

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00:09:30,560 --> 00:09:32,420
kind of talk about Cowichan Tribe
versus Canada?

308
00:09:32,560 --> 00:09:35,340
what has happened over the last
few months.

309
00:09:35,340 --> 00:09:38,740
Obviously, this has been quite a
long court decision, I guess, to

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00:09:38,740 --> 00:09:41,800
summarize it, but can you just
give us high level what's going on

311
00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:44,840
and we can discuss it from there?
Sure.

312
00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:47,240
There is a lot, so I'll try to be
very brief.

313
00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:48,460
The claim was originally filed in
2014.

314
00:09:48,460 --> 00:09:51,220
The trial ended in 2023.

315
00:09:51,220 --> 00:09:53,540
So nine years later, 513 days of

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00:09:53,540 --> 00:09:53,820
trial time.

317
00:09:53,820 --> 00:09:56,080
I believe now they say it's the

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00:09:56,080 --> 00:09:59,580
longest trial, civil trial in
Canadian history, and then almost

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00:09:59,580 --> 00:10:02,540
two years to get the reasons from
the court.

320
00:10:02,680 --> 00:10:07,560
So the claim ultimately at the end
of the day was for approximately 1

321
00:10:07,560 --> 00:10:10,640
,800 acres of land in the city of
Richmond, a declaration of

322
00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:11,800
Aboriginal title on those lands.

323
00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:14,140
Aboriginal title is a right to the

324
00:10:14,140 --> 00:10:14,260
land.

325
00:10:14,260 --> 00:10:16,120
It's the Aboriginal right to land.

326
00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:18,200
It's not an interest in land.

327
00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:19,700
We'll talk about that maybe a bit

328
00:10:19,700 --> 00:10:19,820
later.

329
00:10:19,820 --> 00:10:21,620
It's a right to the land.

330
00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:24,160
And then at one point, before I
get to the decision, this is

331
00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:25,400
important, I think.

332
00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:26,340
At one point, some folks came

333
00:10:26,340 --> 00:10:29,100
forward and said, hey, shouldn't
we give notice to the other folks

334
00:10:29,100 --> 00:10:31,620
within the 1 ,800 acres that
aren't named?

335
00:10:31,620 --> 00:10:38,580
So you have Canada, BC named the
airport authority, Thawasson,

336
00:10:38,580 --> 00:10:42,280
Musqueam, and the city of
Richmond.

337
00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:47,210
And the court decided no. We don't
need to give notice to the other

338
00:10:47,210 --> 00:10:49,890
landowners, and those owners
include businesses, some large,

339
00:10:49,890 --> 00:10:50,810
some small, and private
homeowners.

340
00:10:50,810 --> 00:10:55,890
We don't need to do that because
the decision won't affect them.

341
00:10:55,890 --> 00:10:56,130
Remember that.

342
00:10:56,130 --> 00:10:59,670
We're going to come back to that

343
00:10:59,670 --> 00:11:02,230
in a few minutes.

344
00:11:02,230 --> 00:11:05,010
So fast forward to August of this

345
00:11:05,010 --> 00:11:08,250
year and the reasons come out.

346
00:11:08,250 --> 00:11:10,110
And the judge found that there is

347
00:11:10,270 --> 00:11:11,590
Aboriginal title on 800.

348
00:11:11,590 --> 00:11:12,850
of the 1 ,800 acres.

349
00:11:12,850 --> 00:11:14,950
So you've got now black line
around 800 acres.

350
00:11:14,950 --> 00:11:18,370
The judge said, I'll give 18
months before my decision takes

351
00:11:18,370 --> 00:11:18,610
effect.

352
00:11:18,610 --> 00:11:20,070
And in the meantime, British

353
00:11:20,070 --> 00:11:23,890
Columbia, you need to go negotiate
with the Cowichan to sort out all

354
00:11:24,070 --> 00:11:27,370
these other private landowners
that were part of the litigation,

355
00:11:27,370 --> 00:11:31,670
but whose land now is encumbered,
as the judge put it, with

356
00:11:31,670 --> 00:11:32,070
Aboriginal Title.

357
00:11:32,070 --> 00:11:34,030
The judge said that the Land Title

358
00:11:34,030 --> 00:11:37,830
Act on the 800 acres doesn't
apply.

359
00:11:37,830 --> 00:11:38,290
Think about it.

360
00:11:38,290 --> 00:11:41,390
You own land right now.

361
00:11:41,390 --> 00:11:47,110
You rely on the Land Title Act,
and specifically it's Section 23

362
00:11:47,130 --> 00:11:47,790
and 25.

363
00:11:47,790 --> 00:11:50,030
The whole Land Title Act's

364
00:11:50,170 --> 00:11:55,310
important, but as a lawyer, I like
the whole act, but it's 23 and 25,

365
00:11:55,310 --> 00:11:59,210
and what those sections basically
say is, see this, this title?

366
00:11:59,210 --> 00:12:00,110
This means something against the
whole world.

367
00:12:00,490 --> 00:12:03,210
including the government, that you
own this land.

368
00:12:03,210 --> 00:12:08,270
What the judge says in the
decision is that on the 800 acres

369
00:12:08,270 --> 00:12:14,290
and off the 800 acres, the Land
Title Act doesn't apply.

370
00:12:14,290 --> 00:12:16,910
But she doesn't invalidate the
title, interestingly.

371
00:12:16,910 --> 00:12:21,090
So she says, you get to keep your
title.

372
00:12:21,090 --> 00:12:22,990
This is how I describe it.

373
00:12:22,990 --> 00:12:26,210
I'm just going to erase everything

374
00:12:26,210 --> 00:12:27,150
on the page.

375
00:12:27,150 --> 00:12:30,110
Because the guts of the title,

376
00:12:30,110 --> 00:12:33,210
like what makes the paper valuable
is the Land Title Act.

377
00:12:33,210 --> 00:12:36,470
The judge, interestingly, also
says that the decision doesn't

378
00:12:36,470 --> 00:12:40,850
affect private parties until the
Cowichan or another First Nation

379
00:12:41,290 --> 00:12:46,550
goes to obtain the land and take
possession of the land.

380
00:12:46,550 --> 00:12:51,250
I say with the greatest of respect
to the court that I believe that's

381
00:12:51,330 --> 00:12:54,690
incorrect on its face, that in
fact, those folks on the 800 acres

382
00:12:54,690 --> 00:12:57,950
were affected immediately upon the
release of the decision from the

383
00:12:57,950 --> 00:13:00,870
court that said, all that land
that's held privately can't rely

384
00:13:00,870 --> 00:13:03,370
on the Land Title Act anymore.

385
00:13:03,370 --> 00:13:04,850
One other comment I'll make.

386
00:13:04,910 --> 00:13:10,830
The judge says, look, when the
Cowichan decide if they want to go

387
00:13:11,090 --> 00:13:15,970
to court at some point and they
want to obtain that land, the

388
00:13:15,970 --> 00:13:20,290
private landlords can defend it
and they'll have their title.

389
00:13:20,290 --> 00:13:24,210
But remember what I told you
earlier, so what's the first

390
00:13:24,210 --> 00:13:28,190
defense fee?
You have to be a lawyer to figure

391
00:13:28,190 --> 00:13:28,570
this out.

392
00:13:28,570 --> 00:13:29,930
You're going to reach for your

393
00:13:29,930 --> 00:13:32,950
title and go, oh, judge, they're
not entitled to my land because I

394
00:13:33,590 --> 00:13:37,510
got this certificate of title from
the government of BC that says I'm

395
00:13:37,510 --> 00:13:38,630
indefeasibly entitled to this
land.

396
00:13:38,630 --> 00:13:46,550
And the court will go, yeah, but
the guts of your title have been

397
00:13:46,550 --> 00:13:52,030
erased because you can't rely on
the Land Title Act.

398
00:13:52,030 --> 00:13:57,210
So all you're left with is a piece
of paper that is evidence that you

399
00:13:57,210 --> 00:13:58,610
once had indefeasible title.

400
00:13:58,610 --> 00:14:00,750
That is not an exaggeration.

401
00:14:00,750 --> 00:14:03,830
I will just say it is not
hyperbole.

402
00:14:03,830 --> 00:14:07,680
I am not trying to fearmonger on
your show.

403
00:14:07,680 --> 00:14:12,260
That is what the judge and the
decision said.

404
00:14:12,260 --> 00:14:14,320
It's not open for argument.

405
00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:17,500
In fact, the court was quite

406
00:14:17,500 --> 00:14:18,000
articulate on this point.

407
00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:19,700
Final point I'll make.

408
00:14:19,700 --> 00:14:21,900
Remember I said the 800 acres.

409
00:14:21,900 --> 00:14:23,060
The judge, interestingly, also

410
00:14:23,060 --> 00:14:25,420
said, oh, by the way, a precedent
that's going to flow for my

411
00:14:25,420 --> 00:14:25,560
decision.

412
00:14:25,560 --> 00:14:27,560
is that my analysis of the effects

413
00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:31,380
of title on private land, the fact
that they can coexist according to

414
00:14:31,380 --> 00:14:32,500
the judge, applies throughout all
of BC.

415
00:14:32,500 --> 00:14:33,680
Now, I didn't say that.

416
00:14:33,740 --> 00:14:34,480
I'm telling you that's what the

417
00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:34,900
court said.

418
00:14:34,900 --> 00:14:36,240
I've got the paragraphs here

419
00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:37,420
somewhere, right here, in six
different places.

420
00:14:37,540 --> 00:14:40,340
Now, why do I stress that to you
as a final comment?

421
00:14:40,340 --> 00:14:44,320
There's a lot of focus on the city
of Richmond, and I get it.

422
00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:46,980
The claim was in the city of
Richmond.

423
00:14:46,980 --> 00:14:51,140
But strictly speaking, The only
material relevant parts of the

424
00:14:51,140 --> 00:14:54,080
city of Richmond are the 800 acres
that title has been declared on.

425
00:14:54,340 --> 00:14:57,800
The other comments about the Land
Title Act and the precedent, they

426
00:14:57,800 --> 00:15:01,420
are not restricted to the city of
Richmond.

427
00:15:01,420 --> 00:15:06,370
The media is sort of focused on,
well, the city of, oh my goodness,

428
00:15:06,370 --> 00:15:07,590
city of Richmond.

429
00:15:07,590 --> 00:15:09,730
Look, I don't want to downplay for

430
00:15:10,210 --> 00:15:14,310
the poor folks that are directly
affected in the 800 acres.

431
00:15:14,310 --> 00:15:17,230
And quite frankly, practically
speaking, the city of Richmond is

432
00:15:17,230 --> 00:15:18,290
wearing this, practically
speaking.

433
00:15:18,290 --> 00:15:22,730
But the judge did not restrict in
any way the comments about the

434
00:15:23,610 --> 00:15:27,890
precedent for the entirety of the
province to Richmond.

435
00:15:27,890 --> 00:15:32,400
That applies to every square inch
of the province, according to the

436
00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:33,660
judge in Cowichan.

437
00:15:33,660 --> 00:15:35,920
And again, I'm not trying to fear

438
00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:36,340
monger.

439
00:15:36,440 --> 00:15:37,540
The judge is actually quite clear

440
00:15:37,540 --> 00:15:39,780
in the decision on it.

441
00:15:39,780 --> 00:15:40,540
So I'll stop there.

442
00:15:41,140 --> 00:15:44,080
I know that was a bit for both.

443
00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:45,280
ran through i think the guts of

444
00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:50,440
the decision so just quickly so
when was the decision and then so

445
00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:53,300
she's given 18 months from her
decision before so we're roughly

446
00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:56,940
just over a year out yeah we're
four months and yeah maybe a year

447
00:15:56,940 --> 00:16:01,660
out the province has said it's
going to seek a stay that is like

448
00:16:01,660 --> 00:16:04,700
stopping the effect of the
decision until the appeal is heard

449
00:16:04,700 --> 00:16:10,860
as far as i know they have not
done anything to give effect to

450
00:16:10,860 --> 00:16:14,800
that just quickly so when was the
decision and then so she's given

451
00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:17,560
18 months from her decision before
so we're roughly just over a year

452
00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:20,180
out yeah four months and yeah
maybe a year out the province has

453
00:16:20,180 --> 00:16:24,400
said it's going to seek a stay
that is like stopping the effect

454
00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:28,580
of the decision until the appeal
is heard as far as i know they

455
00:16:28,580 --> 00:16:35,380
have not done anything to give
effect to that And the fact that

456
00:16:35,380 --> 00:16:38,340
we're in December and this
decision was rendered in August, I

457
00:16:38,340 --> 00:16:41,240
will just share with you, I think
is appalling.

458
00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:43,100
I think we're in an emergency
situation.

459
00:16:43,100 --> 00:16:44,280
It's my view.

460
00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:46,200
I'm not an elected politician.

461
00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:47,100
I'm not democratically elected.

462
00:16:47,100 --> 00:16:49,920
But as an observer of all this, I

463
00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:52,300
don't know how much more serious
this can get in a province, let

464
00:16:52,300 --> 00:16:55,970
alone British Columbia, without on
an emergency basis saying we need

465
00:16:55,970 --> 00:16:59,210
guidance from the British Columbia
Court of Appeal on this as quickly

466
00:16:59,210 --> 00:16:59,530
as possible.

467
00:16:59,530 --> 00:17:01,090
So hopefully they'll file their

468
00:17:01,090 --> 00:17:01,730
stay motion.

469
00:17:01,730 --> 00:17:05,290
soon and get this case rolling and

470
00:17:05,290 --> 00:17:09,310
moving so do we know kind of what
the purpose of this was like what

471
00:17:09,310 --> 00:17:13,670
was the couch and tribe trying to
achieve was it like reconciliation

472
00:17:13,670 --> 00:17:17,810
because it doesn't seem like you
know going after private land was

473
00:17:17,810 --> 00:17:20,510
really on their strategy like have
they communicated in their case

474
00:17:20,510 --> 00:16:58,770
like what exactly the outcome they
were desired for well look i'll

475
00:16:58,770 --> 00:17:02,330
say two things on that kind of
what the purpose of this was like

476
00:17:02,330 --> 00:17:07,630
what was the couch and tribe
trying to achieve was it like

477
00:17:07,630 --> 00:17:10,130
reconciliation because it doesn't
seem like you know going after

478
00:17:10,130 --> 00:17:13,670
private land was really on their
strategy like have they

479
00:17:13,670 --> 00:17:17,589
communicated in their case like
what exactly the outcome they were

480
00:17:17,589 --> 00:17:20,510
desired for look i'll say two
things on that They have been

481
00:17:20,510 --> 00:17:22,780
saying publicly, it's been
reported in the media, that

482
00:17:22,780 --> 00:17:24,720
they're not after people's private
property, to put it colloquially

483
00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:25,200
or plainly.

484
00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:26,440
They're not after people's private

485
00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:26,619
property.

486
00:17:26,619 --> 00:17:27,540
Here's the problem with that.

487
00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:30,840
And by the way, I'm not suggesting
they're trying to be misleading.

488
00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:34,080
I mean, they can say it the way
they want.

489
00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:36,380
Aboriginal title is the exclusive
right to land.

490
00:17:36,380 --> 00:17:37,660
Okay?
If you ask for Aboriginal title

491
00:17:37,660 --> 00:17:41,820
and somebody says, here it is,
should you be surprised that you

492
00:17:41,820 --> 00:17:45,540
get the way?
So, you know, it could have done

493
00:17:45,540 --> 00:17:46,280
this other ways.

494
00:17:46,280 --> 00:17:47,900
And so they could have said, we

495
00:17:47,900 --> 00:17:48,600
want damages.

496
00:17:48,660 --> 00:17:49,560
That's compensation.

497
00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:52,750
Like we want money for breaching
or infringing our title.

498
00:17:52,750 --> 00:17:54,610
They could have asked for that.

499
00:17:54,610 --> 00:17:55,830
That's what we want.

500
00:17:55,830 --> 00:17:57,530
Just play devil's advocate.

501
00:17:57,530 --> 00:17:59,050
They probably have asked for that.

502
00:17:59,050 --> 00:18:01,510
This has just been the most
successful thing so far.

503
00:18:01,510 --> 00:18:02,930
Well, fair enough.

504
00:18:02,930 --> 00:18:04,850
But you asked the question, what

505
00:18:04,850 --> 00:18:06,590
were they seeking?
Yeah.

506
00:18:06,590 --> 00:18:08,970
They were very articulate and
clear.

507
00:18:08,970 --> 00:18:09,910
They want title.

508
00:18:09,910 --> 00:18:11,630
Look, I agree with you.

509
00:18:11,630 --> 00:18:14,930
There's other ways to do this, but
the point I'm trying to make is

510
00:18:14,930 --> 00:17:55,830
they could have done it
differently.

511
00:17:55,830 --> 00:17:59,530
It's their right not to, I'm not
questioning the right, but to say,

512
00:17:59,530 --> 00:18:01,150
well, we don't want people's
private property.

513
00:18:01,150 --> 00:18:03,230
Well, you asked for title.

514
00:18:03,230 --> 00:18:06,170
What did you think you were going

515
00:18:06,170 --> 00:18:07,850
to get?
to get?

516
00:18:07,850 --> 00:18:12,210
So I guess the main issue with the
outcome is if you have Aboriginal

517
00:18:12,210 --> 00:18:13,730
title, you cannot have fee simple.

518
00:18:14,050 --> 00:18:15,230
Like is that the conflict?

519
00:18:15,230 --> 00:18:17,960
I would say that's the law
currently in Canada.

520
00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:19,380
Both fee simple and aboriginal.

521
00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:22,480
So I've had a few people try to

522
00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:26,500
correct me online by saying, well,
you know, Tom has said fee simple

523
00:18:26,500 --> 00:18:27,640
is an exclusive right to land.

524
00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:28,080
There are car votes.

525
00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:29,700
Of course there are car votes.

526
00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:30,400
The crown can expropriate land.

527
00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:30,800
It's like aboriginal title.

528
00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:33,240
I get news for everyone.

529
00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:34,980
It's not absolute either.

530
00:18:35,420 --> 00:18:37,420
The crown can also.

531
00:18:37,420 --> 00:18:38,980
justifiably infringed title, by
the way.

532
00:18:38,980 --> 00:18:41,980
We might want to talk about that
because that's interesting.

533
00:18:41,980 --> 00:18:45,200
But when I say they're both
exclusive rights, there are

534
00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:48,100
caveats on both, okay?
But they're essentially, if I say

535
00:18:48,100 --> 00:18:52,480
you've got indefeasible title to
your land, that's against the

536
00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:53,160
whole world.

537
00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:56,580
That's as close to an exclusive

538
00:18:57,160 --> 00:18:58,500
right to land as you get.

539
00:18:58,620 --> 00:18:59,960
If I say you have Aboriginal

540
00:18:59,960 --> 00:19:03,260
title, by definition, the court
has said it's not even crown land

541
00:19:03,260 --> 00:19:03,420
anymore.

542
00:19:03,420 --> 00:19:04,200
That's the court.

543
00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:07,400
The Supreme Court of Canada is
saying that.

544
00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:12,530
So, How can you have two exclusive
rights to one parcel of land?

545
00:19:12,530 --> 00:19:13,250
You can't.

546
00:19:13,250 --> 00:19:14,170
It's an obvious point.

547
00:19:14,390 --> 00:19:17,230
Do you know, has anybody tried to
sell a property on here or even

548
00:19:17,230 --> 00:19:19,310
refinance one?
Like, has anybody actually tried

549
00:19:19,310 --> 00:19:20,790
going through the channels to do
it?

550
00:19:21,490 --> 00:19:23,250
So there has been some media
reporting.

551
00:19:23,250 --> 00:19:24,810
there has been some media
reporting.

552
00:19:24,810 --> 00:19:25,030
Yeah.

553
00:19:25,030 --> 00:19:27,630
And I want to be very clear, you

554
00:19:27,930 --> 00:19:31,250
know, to you guys that I've not
been able to do due diligence on

555
00:19:31,250 --> 00:19:32,350
the, you know, I want to be very
careful.

556
00:19:32,350 --> 00:19:37,370
I think it's really important for
me to be as accurate as I can be.

557
00:19:37,370 --> 00:19:37,690
Yeah.

558
00:19:38,110 --> 00:19:39,770
I've not done my own personal due

559
00:19:39,770 --> 00:19:39,970
diligence.

560
00:19:39,970 --> 00:19:42,770
There was one person, I know one

561
00:19:42,770 --> 00:19:45,150
guy was saying he couldn't get his
mortgage renewed.

562
00:19:45,150 --> 00:19:48,350
I will tell you, I know that
Montrose has been public in the

563
00:19:48,610 --> 00:19:51,350
media, and I have no reason not to
believe them in terms of the

564
00:19:51,350 --> 00:19:51,870
direct effects.

565
00:19:52,050 --> 00:19:53,990
I think that was just this week,

566
00:19:53,990 --> 00:19:58,010
in fact, that they were in the
media saying that financing and

567
00:19:58,010 --> 00:19:59,870
lenders and all sorts of issues.

568
00:20:00,250 --> 00:20:04,380
But here's what I can tell you.

569
00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:05,440
I know of two examples, firsthand
knowledge.

570
00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:08,860
of two commercial purchases in the
eight -digit range, okay, the tens

571
00:20:08,860 --> 00:20:11,880
of millions, of two commercial
parcels, two separate deals, not

572
00:20:12,020 --> 00:20:16,720
on the 800 or the 1 ,800 acres,
trying to be really clear, but

573
00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:18,080
within the city of Richmond.

574
00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:19,600
Both of those deals fell apart

575
00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:21,620
because the purchasers walked
away, and in both of those

576
00:20:21,620 --> 00:20:25,820
instances, the only reason that
was given was a lack of certainty

577
00:20:25,820 --> 00:20:29,300
in British Columbia's land title
system and the Cowichan decision.

578
00:20:29,460 --> 00:20:30,480
Now that's my firsthand knowledge.

579
00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:32,610
So I can tell you that

580
00:20:32,610 --> 00:20:35,450
definitively, you know, talking to
colleagues and know the firsthand.

581
00:20:35,450 --> 00:20:35,770
Yeah.

582
00:20:35,970 --> 00:20:39,070
I think if you take the media

583
00:20:39,070 --> 00:20:41,490
reporting and what's out there and
you discount it by 50%, there

584
00:20:41,490 --> 00:20:43,890
seems to be a lot going on.

585
00:20:43,890 --> 00:20:45,390
I think if you err even on the

586
00:20:45,390 --> 00:20:47,270
side of caution, and remember,
we're only a few months into this.

587
00:20:47,270 --> 00:20:49,890
Nobody's even heard this podcast
yet.

588
00:20:49,890 --> 00:20:50,150
That's right.

589
00:20:50,150 --> 00:20:50,230
right.

590
00:20:50,230 --> 00:20:52,910
I think from a financing point of
view, I've seen the media exposure

591
00:20:52,910 --> 00:20:53,570
on that as well.

592
00:20:53,570 --> 00:20:54,610
Hard to say, right?

593
00:20:54,610 --> 00:20:56,030
Lenders don't really want to
comment on something that's not

594
00:20:56,030 --> 00:20:58,530
solidified either, but in terms of
like the value or damage from the

595
00:20:58,530 --> 00:20:59,870
resale, for sure.

596
00:20:59,870 --> 00:21:01,190
Even just that lack of confidence

597
00:21:01,190 --> 00:21:02,050
from a buyer.

598
00:21:02,050 --> 00:21:03,130
Absolutely, that's going to affect

599
00:21:03,130 --> 00:21:03,470
it.

600
00:21:03,470 --> 00:21:04,730
Anyone suggesting this hasn't

601
00:21:04,730 --> 00:21:05,350
affected the market.

602
00:21:05,350 --> 00:21:07,290
Look, we could debate how much.

603
00:21:07,290 --> 00:21:10,650
And I don't do what you guys do,
right?

604
00:21:10,650 --> 00:21:12,510
I don't pretend to be.

605
00:21:12,510 --> 00:21:14,610
I just buy properties for myself.

606
00:21:14,610 --> 00:21:17,110
And there is a buying opportunity
right now in all of British

607
00:21:17,110 --> 00:21:18,850
Columbia, which isn't great in
some ways.

608
00:21:18,850 --> 00:21:21,530
But anyone suggesting that there
has not been a direct and

609
00:21:21,530 --> 00:21:23,110
immediate effect on the market,
come on.

610
00:21:23,110 --> 00:21:24,670
Like, look, we can debate how
much.

611
00:21:24,670 --> 00:21:29,600
Again, maybe about my pay grade to
debate it.

612
00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:31,120
Absolutely a direct effect.

613
00:21:31,120 --> 00:21:33,560
I mean, the softening in the

614
00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:38,540
market seems to be on a weekly
basis from what I'm observing.

615
00:21:38,540 --> 00:21:40,580
And I'm not blaming that all.

616
00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:42,100
And I'm not blaming Cowichan

617
00:21:42,460 --> 00:21:43,220
Triarch First.

618
00:21:43,220 --> 00:21:45,360
Also, I'm not blaming First

619
00:21:45,360 --> 00:21:45,500
Nation.

620
00:21:45,500 --> 00:21:49,160
I'm not going to put that all in

621
00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:50,200
the decision.

622
00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:53,110
I think that's unfair to put that

623
00:21:53,110 --> 00:21:54,410
on our courts.

624
00:21:54,410 --> 00:21:57,410
I would say the government of BC

625
00:21:57,410 --> 00:22:03,190
needs to be much more bold on what
its next steps are going to be,

626
00:22:03,530 --> 00:22:04,710
are going to be, though.

627
00:22:04,710 --> 00:22:06,090
Obviously, we're super interested

628
00:22:06,190 --> 00:22:07,290
in the real estate implications.

629
00:22:07,290 --> 00:22:09,470
But what about things like

630
00:22:09,470 --> 00:22:11,330
policing on that land or like
bylaws?

631
00:22:11,330 --> 00:22:16,230
Because I know like from our neck
of the woods, when you get into

632
00:22:16,230 --> 00:22:19,170
the West Bank First Nations, there
can be different laws when you go

633
00:22:19,170 --> 00:22:19,550
into reserve.

634
00:22:19,550 --> 00:22:21,290
Like, is this reserve land?

635
00:22:21,290 --> 00:22:22,350
Yeah, it's not reserve land.

636
00:22:22,350 --> 00:22:24,310
So reserve land is run under the

637
00:22:24,990 --> 00:22:27,850
Indian Act system, which is a
statute, a law.

638
00:22:27,850 --> 00:22:28,330
Aboriginal title is
constitutional.

639
00:22:28,510 --> 00:22:30,810
And here is what I'm going to be
very clear.

640
00:22:31,030 --> 00:22:33,890
I'm going to use direct words from
the Supreme Court of Canada.

641
00:22:33,890 --> 00:22:36,330
If it's Aboriginal title, it
belongs to the First Nation.

642
00:22:36,330 --> 00:22:38,090
It is no longer crown land.

643
00:22:38,090 --> 00:22:38,670
Direct quote.

644
00:22:38,850 --> 00:22:41,230
It's not crown land anymore.

645
00:22:41,230 --> 00:22:44,010
The First Nation would have full

646
00:22:44,660 --> 00:22:45,700
jurisdiction on that land.

647
00:22:45,700 --> 00:22:47,820
For the most part, unless the

648
00:22:47,820 --> 00:22:49,820
province and the federal
government wants to justifiably

649
00:22:49,820 --> 00:22:51,140
infringe on that land.

650
00:22:51,140 --> 00:22:52,400
And then in that case, the courts

651
00:22:52,460 --> 00:22:54,900
have been very clear that the
ability to justifiably infringe on

652
00:22:54,900 --> 00:22:58,080
Aboriginal title land, now I'm
using direct quote, fairly broad.

653
00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:00,560
But our governments don't like
using that language because it

654
00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:02,340
might offend someone.

655
00:23:02,340 --> 00:23:04,880
What I would say to all of you, I

656
00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:06,280
don't hesitate to use the
language.

657
00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:08,160
I try to be respectful.

658
00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:09,440
There are lots of indigenous

659
00:23:09,580 --> 00:23:09,980
friends.

660
00:23:10,120 --> 00:23:11,620
This is the legal toolkit we've

661
00:23:11,620 --> 00:23:14,580
been given in this country.

662
00:23:14,580 --> 00:23:16,180
That's the one tool government has

663
00:23:16,180 --> 00:23:19,180
to balance aboriginal title rights
with the rights of the rest of us

664
00:23:19,180 --> 00:23:19,940
in British Columbia.

665
00:23:19,940 --> 00:23:21,740
So if you have a government going,

666
00:23:21,740 --> 00:23:23,020
we'll never argue justifiable
infringement.

667
00:23:23,020 --> 00:23:23,240
Never.

668
00:23:23,260 --> 00:23:25,100
Well, now you don't have a

669
00:23:25,100 --> 00:23:25,240
toolkit.

670
00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:25,580
Do you understand?

671
00:23:25,580 --> 00:23:27,580
That's the only tool you've got in
the toolkit.

672
00:23:27,580 --> 00:23:28,760
Save and accept for an agreement.

673
00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:30,280
And the way British Columbia

674
00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:33,400
drafts its agreements, I wouldn't
want to be relying on their

675
00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:33,560
agreements.

676
00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:34,300
I said it.

677
00:23:34,300 --> 00:23:34,700
It's true.

678
00:23:34,700 --> 00:23:34,940
Will this be escalated at a

679
00:23:35,060 --> 00:23:36,660
federal level?
Like if the appeal, say, isn't

680
00:23:36,660 --> 00:23:39,840
successful or if it is, does it
just continue on?

681
00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:43,480
So in British Columbia, British
Columbia, of the British Columbia

682
00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:45,420
Supreme Court, that was the
decision in August.

683
00:23:45,500 --> 00:23:46,240
Then we have the British Columbia
Court of Appeal.

684
00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:49,520
That was a decision last week, for
example, on Nundrup and the

685
00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:49,920
Drupalat Law.

686
00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:51,220
That's the highest court in

687
00:23:51,220 --> 00:23:53,260
British Columbia, is the British
Columbia Court of Appeal.

688
00:23:53,260 --> 00:23:57,520
What it says is final in British
Columbia, subject only to the

689
00:23:58,000 --> 00:23:59,760
Supreme Court of Canada.

690
00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:02,460
In order for it to go to the

691
00:24:02,460 --> 00:24:04,240
Supreme Court of Canada, leave
must be sought.

692
00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:07,280
What does that mean?
It's not an automatic right of

693
00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:07,840
appeal.

694
00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:10,300
In British Columbia, there's an

695
00:24:10,300 --> 00:24:14,880
automatic right of appeal to the
British Columbia Court of Appeal.

696
00:24:15,120 --> 00:24:18,760
If you want to appeal from the
British Columbia Court of Appeal

697
00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:23,100
to Supreme Court of Canada, I
mean, essentially you have to ask

698
00:24:23,100 --> 00:24:23,480
the court.

699
00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:27,940
And the court will go, yes, I'll

700
00:24:27,940 --> 00:24:31,480
hear your appeal, or no, we won't,
and here's the reason.

701
00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:33,560
They usually don't give a reason
why.

702
00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:37,140
They'll just say, we won't hear
the appeal.

703
00:24:37,300 --> 00:24:42,380
And so do you think it would get
to that level?

704
00:24:42,380 --> 00:24:45,500
Do you think they would hear the
appeal?

705
00:24:45,500 --> 00:24:49,100
No, I've been doing this too long
to know not to give a definitive

706
00:24:49,100 --> 00:24:49,920
answer on that.

707
00:24:49,920 --> 00:24:50,720
I think anybody giving a

708
00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:52,980
definitive answer wouldn't be
worth too much on that.

709
00:24:53,140 --> 00:24:55,660
Look, this is obviously a really,
really critical issue.

710
00:24:55,660 --> 00:24:59,180
It raises fundamental issues about
where we're going, not only in

711
00:24:59,180 --> 00:25:02,220
British Columbia, but in Canada.

712
00:25:02,220 --> 00:25:03,220
And, you know, my assumption would

713
00:25:03,220 --> 00:25:05,760
be this would have a very good
chance of having leave granted.

714
00:25:05,980 --> 00:25:10,440
But, you know, I've said that
before about decisions and I've

715
00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:10,640
been wrong.

716
00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:13,140
But just right now, like today,

717
00:25:13,140 --> 00:25:14,100
looking at it.

718
00:25:14,100 --> 00:25:16,900
I would say it's got a good shot

719
00:25:16,900 --> 00:25:21,200
regardless of which way the court
of appeal were to go on this.

720
00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:24,200
But this is the part of the
challenge with our justices.

721
00:25:24,300 --> 00:25:27,880
We just don't know because we've
got, you know, leave to appeal

722
00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:30,300
first is what you'd have to see.

723
00:25:30,300 --> 00:25:31,640
Do you know anything about the

724
00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:34,460
situation in Kamloops?
you know anything about situation

725
00:25:34,460 --> 00:25:35,060
in Kamloops?
What's happening?

726
00:25:35,060 --> 00:25:39,280
Well, look, I mean, there's a
focus on Kamloops that you've got

727
00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:40,560
to claim over the city of
Kamloops.

728
00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:42,920
But yeah, I don't think people
realize that all of British

729
00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:45,860
Columbia is claimed, right?
That's my next question is like,

730
00:25:45,860 --> 00:25:46,840
is there any?
Yeah.

731
00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:49,560
So, and again, with all due
respect to Kamloops and all my

732
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:54,640
friends in Kamloops, all of
British Columbia has either get a

733
00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:57,900
formal legal Aboriginal title
claim on it, or it has an

734
00:25:57,900 --> 00:26:01,040
assertion of an Aboriginal title
claim with the potential for

735
00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:02,880
litigation to be launched at some
point.

736
00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:04,460
Now, this isn't a loan.

737
00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:06,580
I mean, the province is covered.

738
00:26:06,580 --> 00:26:06,820
covered.

739
00:26:06,820 --> 00:26:08,320
But in countless, did they hear

740
00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:10,520
what happened in Richmond and
decide to bring it forward to

741
00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:12,200
court?
Or like, why is countless in the

742
00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:13,880
news then?
I think people are just noticing.

743
00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:15,240
I think, think people are just
noticing.

744
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:19,260
I think, look, I don't want to
speak for people, but what I take

745
00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:21,880
from that is I think people are
just starting, which I think is

746
00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:23,220
very good and healthy in a
democracy.

747
00:26:23,220 --> 00:26:24,720
And for reconciliation, people are
going, hey.

748
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:26,760
Isn't there a claim on their site?
All I'll say is everybody needs to

749
00:26:26,760 --> 00:26:28,740
take a look at the municipal
boundaries because they're going

750
00:26:28,740 --> 00:26:30,440
to find out that the entire
province is claimed.

751
00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:31,740
I don't care what city you're in.

752
00:26:31,740 --> 00:26:33,360
You're going to have some form of

753
00:26:33,360 --> 00:26:35,680
assertion of Aboriginal title on
it.

754
00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:41,380
I mean, there wouldn't be any part
of the province I would point to

755
00:26:41,380 --> 00:26:44,960
that doesn't have some form of
assertion of title or maybe a

756
00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:45,960
settled treaty.

757
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:48,360
It might be a settled treaty area.

758
00:26:48,360 --> 00:26:52,720
Just to be clear, we have treaty
aid area.

759
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:52,840
Yeah.

760
00:26:53,020 --> 00:26:55,160
And we have, of course, our modern

761
00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:57,400
treaties of the Twasen Agreement,
NISCA, for example.

762
00:26:57,600 --> 00:26:59,650
But yeah, no, the province is
completely claimed.

763
00:26:59,650 --> 00:27:00,450
So I'm sitting in Vancouver.

764
00:27:00,450 --> 00:27:01,950
It's got an assertion of average.

765
00:27:01,950 --> 00:27:03,050
I live in West Vancouver.

766
00:27:03,050 --> 00:27:04,250
It's got an assertion.

767
00:27:04,250 --> 00:27:05,510
Kelowna, like everybody's got a
claim title.

768
00:27:05,510 --> 00:27:07,850
What are we waiting for again?
The decision?

769
00:27:07,850 --> 00:27:09,110
No, we've already heard the
decision.

770
00:27:09,110 --> 00:27:10,790
We're waiting for it to come into
effect.

771
00:27:10,790 --> 00:27:12,550
We're still waiting for an order
to be filed.

772
00:27:12,550 --> 00:27:14,370
So we get the decision.

773
00:27:11,830 --> 00:27:14,370
The way Canada works is you now

774
00:27:14,570 --> 00:27:17,330
have to have an order from the
decision.

775
00:27:17,330 --> 00:27:18,870
Then you can seek to appeal.

776
00:27:18,870 --> 00:27:19,910
We're now, what, four or five

777
00:27:19,910 --> 00:27:21,190
months in, no order.

778
00:27:21,530 --> 00:27:22,750
Now, why the province hasn't

779
00:27:22,750 --> 00:27:26,370
insisted on all the parties on an
emergency basis, with maybe the

780
00:27:26,370 --> 00:27:29,320
judge sitting at the head of the
table saying, we're getting in a

781
00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:31,920
room, we're finalizing the order
as soon as possible within 30

782
00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:32,840
days.

783
00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:33,020
Why?

784
00:27:33,020 --> 00:27:34,860
Because this is an emergency.

785
00:27:34,860 --> 00:27:38,720
We have a public interest in

786
00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:41,460
ensuring that British Columbia,
all British Columbians, Indigenous

787
00:27:41,460 --> 00:27:45,080
and non -Indigenous, have some
predictability in their justice

788
00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:49,350
system, and we get this in front
of our highest court as soon as

789
00:27:49,550 --> 00:27:49,550
possible.

790
00:27:49,550 --> 00:27:51,670
I haven't ordered yet, and I don't

791
00:27:51,670 --> 00:27:52,630
know when it's coming.

792
00:27:52,630 --> 00:27:55,090
I suspect it's 2026 sometime.

793
00:27:55,090 --> 00:27:57,990
This to me is the big issue is
there is a role for government to

794
00:27:57,990 --> 00:28:00,170
play here in terms of leadership
and very disappointed with what

795
00:28:00,170 --> 00:27:58,790
I'm seeing.

796
00:27:58,790 --> 00:28:01,190
I mean, mean, with that said, I

797
00:28:01,370 --> 00:28:04,590
guess, and this might be a tough
question, but what would your...

798
00:28:04,590 --> 00:28:07,350
decision have been like if you
were the judge or like what would

799
00:28:07,350 --> 00:28:12,430
you like to see the outcome now
what i would have said is that the

800
00:28:12,550 --> 00:28:16,020
granting of feasible interest
extinguished any aboriginal title

801
00:28:16,020 --> 00:28:18,720
that's what i would have said and
it's possible and the crown should

802
00:28:18,720 --> 00:28:22,240
go back to the negotiation table
even if there isn't a direct legal

803
00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:25,020
remedy in that instance the crown
needs to do the right thing and

804
00:28:25,020 --> 00:28:28,240
negotiate a solution with whatever
first nations one were to

805
00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:30,140
ultimately conclude that title or
i could have said outcome now what

806
00:28:30,140 --> 00:28:33,240
i would have said is that the
granting of feasible interest

807
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:36,240
extinguished any aboriginal title
that's what i would have said and

808
00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:38,760
it's possible and the crown should
go back to the negotiation table

809
00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:42,820
even if there isn't a direct legal
remedy in that instance the crown

810
00:28:42,820 --> 00:28:48,240
needs to do the right thing and
negotiate a solution with whatever

811
00:28:48,300 --> 00:28:51,220
first nations one were to
ultimately conclude that title or

812
00:28:51,220 --> 00:28:54,440
i could have said I find the title
existed here, but it is

813
00:28:54,620 --> 00:28:57,300
justifiably infringed by the
granting of a fee simple interest.

814
00:28:57,300 --> 00:28:58,600
Crown, you owe them some
compensation.

815
00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:00,600
This isn't rocket science, and I
say that with respect.

816
00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:02,000
I mean, putting people's private
property on the chopping block

817
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:02,600
isn't reconciliation.

818
00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:03,620
There, I said it.

819
00:29:03,620 --> 00:29:04,300
Stand by it.

820
00:29:04,300 --> 00:29:07,240
Sorry, but that's not all of us

821
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:07,820
living together.

822
00:29:07,820 --> 00:29:08,900
And, you know, we are a settled

823
00:29:08,900 --> 00:29:09,000
country.

824
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:10,990
I'm not moving from British

825
00:29:10,990 --> 00:29:11,190
Columbia.

826
00:29:11,190 --> 00:29:13,210
I got news for everyone.

827
00:29:13,210 --> 00:29:15,070
You know, so we've got to learn to
live together.

828
00:29:15,550 --> 00:29:19,110
And our Indigenous friends, and I
feel very strongly about this,

829
00:29:19,110 --> 00:29:22,070
have a right to justice.

830
00:29:22,070 --> 00:29:23,170
This country voluntarily amended

831
00:29:23,170 --> 00:29:23,470
its constitution.

832
00:29:23,470 --> 00:29:24,630
And until we do other amendments

833
00:29:24,630 --> 00:29:27,030
to our constitution, we're bound
by that constitution.

834
00:29:27,030 --> 00:29:28,990
I've got lots of Indigenous
governments.

835
00:29:28,990 --> 00:29:31,670
They have every right to pursue
their claims.

836
00:29:31,670 --> 00:29:34,330
I want to be very clear about
that.

837
00:29:34,330 --> 00:29:35,550
It's a free country.

838
00:29:35,550 --> 00:29:37,810
That's what makes our country

839
00:29:37,810 --> 00:29:38,110
great.

840
00:29:38,110 --> 00:29:40,600
There's an obligation on our

841
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:43,200
public governments to govern and
to lead and not hide behind double

842
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:44,320
speak and triple speak.

843
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:46,240
I travel the country, right?

844
00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:47,240
So we work across Canada.

845
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:48,060
What's the biggest issue in

846
00:29:48,060 --> 00:29:51,000
Aboriginal law?
And I have been giving the same

847
00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:52,140
answer for two decades.

848
00:29:52,140 --> 00:29:53,940
There is no problem in Aboriginal

849
00:29:53,940 --> 00:29:54,140
law.

850
00:29:54,140 --> 00:29:56,460
I mean, look, we got gray areas.

851
00:29:56,460 --> 00:29:58,720
The Cowichan decision, don't get
me wrong.

852
00:29:58,900 --> 00:30:00,460
The lack of a long -term
sustainable public policy

853
00:30:00,620 --> 00:30:02,960
framework within which to deal
with these claims in British

854
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:04,240
Columbia is palpable.

855
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:05,920
And we all know it.

856
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:06,520
And I'll say it.

857
00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:07,260
We all know it.

858
00:30:07,260 --> 00:30:08,020
We all feel it.

859
00:30:08,020 --> 00:30:09,380
How are we supposed to reconcile

860
00:30:09,380 --> 00:30:09,980
with 200 constitutionally
protected governments?

861
00:30:09,980 --> 00:30:12,800
I haven't even talked about the
Métis yet.

862
00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:18,020
You know, we better come up with
it as opposed to first past the

863
00:30:18,020 --> 00:30:18,260
post.

864
00:30:18,260 --> 00:30:18,800
So, you know.

865
00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:20,220
A Haida agreement, great.

866
00:30:20,220 --> 00:30:21,560
Well, what about the other 150

867
00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:24,520
First Nations?
Are they getting 100 % of their

868
00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:25,860
asserted traditional territory?
Don't they deserve reconciliation

869
00:30:25,860 --> 00:30:28,440
too?
So how are we going to reconcile

870
00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:32,260
with 200 First Nations in this
province in a way that is

871
00:30:08,020 --> 00:30:09,860
respectful to them and to their
constitutional rights, but that

872
00:30:09,860 --> 00:30:12,800
also leaves us with a province
that is governable?

873
00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:15,460
I'm not trying to be provocative
by asking that.

874
00:30:15,460 --> 00:30:18,020
But that is the question.

875
00:30:18,020 --> 00:30:18,420
I'm sorry.

876
00:30:18,420 --> 00:30:18,900
That's the question.

877
00:30:18,900 --> 00:30:20,520
And I think most British

878
00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:23,880
Columbians, ultimately, I think
they know that is the question.

879
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:26,700
I've not heard anyone come forward
with even a clue on what that

880
00:30:26,700 --> 00:30:27,460
looks like.

881
00:30:27,460 --> 00:30:29,620
And our public governments need to

882
00:30:29,620 --> 00:30:33,130
be the ones to do it, not First
Nations.

883
00:30:33,130 --> 00:30:34,810
That's not on them.

884
00:30:34,810 --> 00:30:36,110
That's unfair.

885
00:30:36,110 --> 00:30:39,910
It's not on our courts to do that
for us.

886
00:30:39,910 --> 00:30:41,710
It's not on industry.

887
00:30:42,150 --> 00:30:44,590
It sounds like the lack of

888
00:30:44,590 --> 00:30:46,850
accountability on that side has
now led to, you know.

889
00:30:47,250 --> 00:30:50,170
collateral damage for those
private owners of that section.

890
00:30:50,170 --> 00:30:52,890
I mean, you're closer proximity,
like geographically.

891
00:30:52,890 --> 00:30:55,470
Have you spoken to Richmond
municipality or private owners?

892
00:30:55,470 --> 00:30:59,490
Like, is there just outrage or are
we still kind of naive to the fact

893
00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:01,820
that this is going to say to mixed
bag?

894
00:31:01,820 --> 00:31:04,160
say to mixed bag?
British Columbia is an unusual

895
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:07,960
political jurors that people don't
like to speak up here.

896
00:31:08,060 --> 00:31:10,260
And I think what the concern is,
is they're worried about what

897
00:31:10,260 --> 00:31:11,480
they'll lose.

898
00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:13,400
And I understand that.

899
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:15,960
To be clear, I get that.

900
00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:17,780
But I don't think those same

901
00:31:17,780 --> 00:31:19,760
people understand what's at stake
here.

902
00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:21,240
This isn't just about Cowichan.

903
00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:23,140
This isn't about, I'm not picking

904
00:31:23,140 --> 00:31:23,780
on Cowichan tribes.

905
00:31:23,780 --> 00:31:24,840
I've got nothing against the

906
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:25,920
Cowichan nation, by the way.

907
00:31:26,180 --> 00:31:27,660
I wish them all the best.

908
00:31:28,110 --> 00:31:33,970
I do, and quite genuinely, this is
about a much bigger issue of where

909
00:31:33,970 --> 00:31:37,210
is our province going?
And do we actually want a

910
00:31:37,210 --> 00:31:38,290
functioning economy in this
province?

911
00:31:38,390 --> 00:31:43,950
I'll put it another way to you,
and this may be a bit more

912
00:31:43,950 --> 00:31:47,570
provocative, but I'll say it
because I've been trying to think

913
00:31:48,310 --> 00:31:49,810
of how to put this.

914
00:31:49,810 --> 00:31:51,110
We have one third of the First

915
00:31:51,110 --> 00:31:53,430
Nations in our country in British
Columbia.

916
00:31:53,430 --> 00:31:56,090
Suddenly look at that and say,
that's a blessing.

917
00:31:56,090 --> 00:32:00,970
Are we lucky to have that many
rich cultures in one jurisdiction?

918
00:32:00,970 --> 00:32:04,830
And I mean that quite genuinely,
by the way.

919
00:32:04,830 --> 00:32:06,990
I don't mean that in any way
sarcastically.

920
00:32:07,090 --> 00:32:09,370
But of course, there's a challenge
with that.

921
00:32:09,370 --> 00:32:10,890
We've got 200.

922
00:32:10,890 --> 00:32:13,230
We've got one third of all.

923
00:32:13,230 --> 00:32:17,490
And our province has only settled
some of the need for outstanding

924
00:32:17,690 --> 00:32:19,430
treaties and the claims,
relatively small proportion.

925
00:32:19,430 --> 00:32:22,370
So do you want to know the
perversity of that situation?

926
00:32:22,550 --> 00:32:26,550
In terms of affording
reconciliation in a way where we

927
00:32:26,550 --> 00:32:30,010
can still keep a health care
system and have roads and maybe

928
00:32:30,010 --> 00:32:34,970
someday buy some new ferries, we
have a need to have more mines,

929
00:32:34,970 --> 00:32:35,950
more pipelines, more nuclear.

930
00:32:35,950 --> 00:32:37,470
more forestry, more mining,

931
00:32:37,470 --> 00:32:40,570
proportionately than any other
jurisdiction in the country.

932
00:32:40,570 --> 00:32:41,730
I said it.

933
00:32:41,730 --> 00:32:42,110
It's true.

934
00:32:42,110 --> 00:32:46,230
How are we going to afford this?
Again, this is the perversity of

935
00:32:46,230 --> 00:32:50,470
the situation we find ourselves
in, that in order to meet the

936
00:32:50,470 --> 00:32:53,040
obligations that our public
government has, the idea of

937
00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:55,260
weaning away from development,
we're in the opposite situation.

938
00:32:55,260 --> 00:32:58,740
We need to be developing at a rate
that exceeds any... other

939
00:32:58,740 --> 00:33:01,760
jurisdiction proportionally in the
Federation, because we have a much

940
00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:03,580
bigger task in front of us.

941
00:33:03,580 --> 00:33:04,720
Yes, Nova Scotia, Prince Edward

942
00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:05,320
Island might have some outstanding
claims.

943
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:07,980
They are dealing with maybe a
dozen First Nation, two on Prince

944
00:33:07,980 --> 00:33:08,280
Edward Island.

945
00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:09,060
We've got 200.

946
00:33:09,060 --> 00:33:12,160
The numbers don't work here unless
you have the single most robust

947
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:14,360
economy in the country.

948
00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:16,560
We've not come to grips with this

949
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:20,400
and we're doing the opposite, it
feels like.

950
00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:26,060
So please challenge me on what I
just said to you, if you think I'd

951
00:33:26,060 --> 00:33:28,240
pray on this.

952
00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:30,000
No, so you're saying to ramp up

953
00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:32,420
the resource extraction and all
that to pay for basically...

954
00:33:32,420 --> 00:33:33,560
Well, how are you going to do with
that?

955
00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:34,840
Well, how are you going to do with
that?

956
00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:38,260
So somebody needs to lay out to me
the economic plan of how we're

957
00:33:38,260 --> 00:33:41,420
going to reconcile with all 200
plus First Nations and the Métis

958
00:33:41,420 --> 00:33:43,440
in British Columbia and still...

959
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:45,000
be able to have healthcare,

960
00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:45,460
education, roads.

961
00:33:45,460 --> 00:33:47,620
Again, I'm not arguing against

962
00:33:47,620 --> 00:33:47,840
reconciliation.

963
00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:48,480
The opposite.

964
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:49,960
I'm in favor of reconciliation.

965
00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:51,740
I'm a big supporter.

966
00:33:51,740 --> 00:33:55,580
But if we don't have the honest
discussion of, well, okay, we've

967
00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:56,580
only got so much land.

968
00:33:56,580 --> 00:33:58,240
Land is finite in this province.

969
00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:02,800
How are we going to construct an
economy that respects all those

970
00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:07,440
individual indigenous governments?
and still allows us to have the

971
00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:10,320
capital and resources to do
reconciliation properly.

972
00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:14,659
Well, I don't think you have to
be, again, as I say, the country's

973
00:34:14,659 --> 00:34:16,679
chipping the bag to figure out, we
don't have the answer to that

974
00:34:16,679 --> 00:34:17,340
question right now.

975
00:34:17,340 --> 00:34:19,760
All you have to do is look at the

976
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:23,480
BC economy, and we haven't even
dealt with the majority of First

977
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:26,199
Nations yet in this province,
remember.

978
00:34:26,199 --> 00:34:26,780
They're not at the table.

979
00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:28,280
They're not getting the attention.

980
00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:32,199
So I hate to rip the bandage off
like that, but I think we're at a

981
00:34:32,199 --> 00:34:33,980
point no one else seems to be
talking about it.

982
00:34:33,980 --> 00:34:35,060
So I'll say.

983
00:34:35,420 --> 00:34:36,739
So obviously this is a pretty

984
00:34:36,739 --> 00:34:38,500
monumental decision in the court.

985
00:34:38,580 --> 00:34:41,120
And now you have people like you

986
00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:45,139
and more and more people talking
about, well, we just need to start

987
00:34:45,139 --> 00:34:49,159
coming up with some money to just
pay them to settle these old,

988
00:34:49,159 --> 00:34:53,840
obviously the unceded land and all
that, all that lingering issues,

989
00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:54,960
right?
Is that kind of what?

990
00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:55,120
Yeah.

991
00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:56,960
I mean, I'm not sort of saying

992
00:34:56,960 --> 00:34:58,220
just pay them.

993
00:34:58,220 --> 00:35:01,580
What I'm saying is that capital is

994
00:35:01,580 --> 00:35:02,000
finite.

995
00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:03,260
There's only so much land.

996
00:35:03,260 --> 00:35:11,320
We can only grow our economy so
big, but it better be bigger than

997
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:12,440
what it is today.

998
00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:16,140
And by a significant margin, all

999
00:35:16,140 --> 00:35:18,220
of us know how our standard of
living has dropped.

1000
00:35:18,220 --> 00:35:22,940
I talked to a lot of British, I
talked to a lot of Canadians.

1001
00:35:22,940 --> 00:35:25,020
Everybody is feeling it across the
country.

1002
00:35:25,020 --> 00:35:29,740
I haven't met a British Columbian
yet that feels like their standard

1003
00:35:29,740 --> 00:35:32,580
of living hasn't dropped in the
past decade.

1004
00:35:32,580 --> 00:35:36,500
That is not a partisan comment, by
the way.

1005
00:35:36,500 --> 00:35:41,240
I want to be very clear.

1006
00:35:41,240 --> 00:35:43,500
It's just as a statement of fact.

1007
00:35:43,500 --> 00:35:47,600
And there's a variety of reasons
for that.

1008
00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:52,120
But, you know, I don't mind paying
taxes, but I want to see my taxes

1009
00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:52,800
do something.

1010
00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:55,340
We improve the downtown east side.

1011
00:35:55,340 --> 00:35:57,620
We're settling treaties with more
First Nations.

1012
00:35:57,620 --> 00:36:01,520
We're treating those First
Nations, not first past the post,

1013
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:05,240
but if you've got bad drinking
water, we actually have money.

1014
00:36:05,240 --> 00:36:07,200
to help those first nations we're
promoting economic development

1015
00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:10,120
we're getting jobs for british
companies we're proud to call

1016
00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:12,560
ourselves british colombians which
i am as opposed to a resident of

1017
00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:16,480
british columbia which i think our
government wants us to call

1018
00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:18,180
ourselves now if economically
there weren't restrictions like

1019
00:36:18,180 --> 00:36:18,280
obviously that's a huge a huge
hurdle and there are no obvious

1020
00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:20,920
solutions but let's just take that
out of the picture for a second

1021
00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:25,480
from a time frame point of view
like this case was historically

1022
00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:28,180
the longest in canada right
economically there weren't

1023
00:36:28,180 --> 00:36:34,460
restrictions like obviously that's
a huge a huge hurdle and there are

1024
00:36:34,780 --> 00:36:40,240
no obvious solutions but let's
just take that out of the picture

1025
00:36:40,240 --> 00:36:43,980
for a second from a time frame
point of view like this case was

1026
00:36:43,980 --> 00:36:47,400
historically the longest in canada
right potentially now that this is

1027
00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:49,640
like case study, we have a
precedent of it.

1028
00:36:50,100 --> 00:36:54,880
How fast do other cases come up
like this and are settled?

1029
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:59,920
Like how, how fast does
reconciliation occur now that we

1030
00:36:59,920 --> 00:37:04,440
have something to work off of?
If we negotiate proper

1031
00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:06,680
settlements, we negotiate proper
settlements, I use the word proper

1032
00:37:06,780 --> 00:37:08,600
deliberately, by the way, proper
settlements that could be done

1033
00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:09,000
more quickly.

1034
00:37:09,180 --> 00:37:10,700
I'm a big fan of the treaty

1035
00:37:10,700 --> 00:37:11,140
process.

1036
00:37:11,140 --> 00:37:12,520
I think the treaty process is the

1037
00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:12,940
ultimate objective in this
province.

1038
00:37:12,940 --> 00:37:14,100
That's my belief.

1039
00:37:14,100 --> 00:37:14,420
Why?

1040
00:37:14,420 --> 00:37:16,440
Because a constitution protects
the rights and it's apples to

1041
00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:16,720
apples.

1042
00:37:16,720 --> 00:37:19,160
So when you say in a treaty, we

1043
00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:21,340
will protect feasible rights, that
means something constitutionally.

1044
00:37:21,340 --> 00:37:24,400
You say it in a contract and, you
know, so I would disagree that we

1045
00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:25,540
can't do it a little differently
right now.

1046
00:37:25,540 --> 00:37:26,880
We could open this province up for
development.

1047
00:37:27,100 --> 00:37:28,260
We should be California North.

1048
00:37:28,260 --> 00:37:29,720
I've always said that.

1049
00:37:29,720 --> 00:37:32,520
We should be one of the strongest
economies on the planet.

1050
00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:33,760
I don't mean Canada.

1051
00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:35,320
I mean British Columbia.

1052
00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:36,140
We have chosen not to.

1053
00:37:36,140 --> 00:37:36,940
And the question then is, okay,

1054
00:37:36,940 --> 00:37:39,300
that's a choice I guess we've
made.

1055
00:37:39,380 --> 00:37:41,160
Some people have made.

1056
00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:43,000
I certainly have a decision that

1057
00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:44,680
was up to me.

1058
00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:45,750
I'd be the opposite.

1059
00:37:45,910 --> 00:37:47,070
Why?
So I could actually treat all

1060
00:37:47,070 --> 00:37:47,790
First Nations equally.

1061
00:37:47,790 --> 00:37:49,810
treaties in a way that would be

1062
00:37:49,810 --> 00:37:54,410
meaningful for First Nations so
that they go out and buy land on

1063
00:37:54,410 --> 00:37:55,190
the market.

1064
00:37:55,190 --> 00:37:56,950
I would not take people's private

1065
00:37:56,950 --> 00:37:57,210
property away.

1066
00:37:57,210 --> 00:37:58,730
I do everything possible to

1067
00:37:58,730 --> 00:38:01,450
protect people's private property.

1068
00:38:01,450 --> 00:38:02,830
These are the kinds of core

1069
00:38:02,830 --> 00:38:04,390
principles we need to land on.

1070
00:38:04,390 --> 00:38:05,030
But we're not there today.

1071
00:38:05,210 --> 00:38:09,270
But I would just say that that's
all within the power of our public

1072
00:38:09,270 --> 00:38:09,570
governments.

1073
00:38:10,110 --> 00:38:11,750
Look, there's examples on the case

1074
00:38:11,750 --> 00:38:12,610
law that are gray.

1075
00:38:12,610 --> 00:38:14,350
It can take a long time to move

1076
00:38:14,350 --> 00:38:14,990
through court.

1077
00:38:15,230 --> 00:38:16,910
But our governments today have a

1078
00:38:16,930 --> 00:38:17,890
whole suite of tools in front of
them.

1079
00:38:17,890 --> 00:38:20,030
They choose not to use them.

1080
00:38:20,030 --> 00:38:22,110
And they will justify why they

1081
00:38:22,110 --> 00:38:22,570
don't.

1082
00:38:22,570 --> 00:38:24,990
And people will need to judge

1083
00:38:24,990 --> 00:38:26,190
whether they've been successful in
that.

1084
00:38:26,190 --> 00:38:27,890
I would say we have not been
successful.

1085
00:38:27,890 --> 00:38:34,150
I think we should use the toolkit,
do it transparently, and make this

1086
00:38:34,150 --> 00:38:34,670
province prosperous.

1087
00:38:34,670 --> 00:38:36,950
for Indigenous and non -Indigenous

1088
00:38:36,950 --> 00:38:39,010
peoples as opposed to the first
-past -post reconciliation.

1089
00:38:39,010 --> 00:38:40,870
That's what I call it right now.

1090
00:38:40,870 --> 00:38:43,110
You know, and I'm not going to

1091
00:38:43,110 --> 00:38:47,410
name the First Nations because I
wish them well and I'm happy to

1092
00:38:47,410 --> 00:38:48,450
see them doing well.

1093
00:38:48,450 --> 00:38:51,910
But we all know what I'm talking

1094
00:38:51,910 --> 00:38:52,130
about.

1095
00:38:52,130 --> 00:38:53,730
My Indigenous friends know what

1096
00:38:53,730 --> 00:38:56,090
I'm talking about because many of
them aren't first -past -the

1097
00:38:56,090 --> 00:38:56,410
-post.

1098
00:38:56,410 --> 00:38:59,230
They're not the ones that get the

1099
00:38:59,230 --> 00:39:00,870
deputy ministers coming to visit
them.

1100
00:39:00,870 --> 00:39:02,570
We can't be running the province
that way.

1101
00:39:02,570 --> 00:39:04,570
We've got 200 -plus Indigenous
governments in this province.

1102
00:39:04,570 --> 00:39:07,330
They all deserve to be treated
with respect, as do the non

1103
00:39:07,330 --> 00:39:09,250
-Indigenous citizens of this
province.

1104
00:39:09,250 --> 00:38:58,690
So we need to rethink and
recalibrate the way we've been

1105
00:38:58,690 --> 00:38:59,230
doing business.

1106
00:38:59,230 --> 00:39:01,410
And I'm not just blaming the Eby

1107
00:39:01,410 --> 00:39:02,570
and the Horgan governments on
this.

1108
00:39:02,570 --> 00:39:04,570
It would be unfair of me to do
that.

1109
00:39:04,570 --> 00:39:04,950
I'm not.

1110
00:39:04,950 --> 00:39:05,910
They've exasperated it.

1111
00:39:05,910 --> 00:39:06,690
They really have.

1112
00:39:06,690 --> 00:39:08,870
But this has been building for

1113
00:39:08,870 --> 00:39:11,690
three decades through successive
governments in British Columbia.

1114
00:39:12,090 --> 00:39:15,330
of pushing off the big questions
and not coming up with the

1115
00:39:15,330 --> 00:39:16,070
ultimate goal.

1116
00:39:16,070 --> 00:39:19,170
So you think if we negotiated

1117
00:39:19,170 --> 00:39:21,070
earlier, it would have never got
to court?

1118
00:39:21,190 --> 00:39:21,530
Maybe not.

1119
00:39:21,630 --> 00:39:25,630
I mean, there's a right in this

1120
00:39:25,630 --> 00:39:27,410
country to go to court.

1121
00:39:27,410 --> 00:39:29,990
And that's simply the reality of

1122
00:39:29,990 --> 00:39:30,590
Canada.

1123
00:39:28,150 --> 00:39:31,350
The issue is what do you do when

1124
00:39:31,350 --> 00:39:35,070
you go to court?
Do you go in there and vigorously

1125
00:39:35,070 --> 00:39:39,060
defend the simple title and say,
we either do it this way or we

1126
00:39:39,060 --> 00:39:42,240
will amend the constitution to
protect private property rights?

1127
00:39:42,240 --> 00:39:44,580
To me, that would be leadership.

1128
00:39:44,780 --> 00:39:45,640
That's what's needed.

1129
00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:47,360
I don't think that's offensive to
reconciliation.

1130
00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:48,880
There'll be people that disagree
with me.

1131
00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:54,140
They're entitled to disagree with
me, but we need to have a civil

1132
00:39:54,460 --> 00:39:55,220
dialogue on this.

1133
00:39:55,220 --> 00:39:57,320
I guess for people that are

1134
00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:00,000
currently, guess for people that
are currently, I mean, we'll just

1135
00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:02,880
maybe move out of Richmond, say
Kamloops or West Kelowna or pretty

1136
00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:05,280
much anywhere in the province.

1137
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:07,720
Well, I think it's more of a

1138
00:40:07,720 --> 00:40:08,560
Kelowna issue than West Kelowna.

1139
00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:10,620
Well, I'm just thinking if

1140
00:40:10,620 --> 00:40:13,900
people... are nervous or cautious
or want like a tangible takeaway

1141
00:40:13,900 --> 00:40:20,320
from this to say, okay, here's
what I can do to potentially

1142
00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:23,160
mitigate anything moving forward
to my fee simple.

1143
00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:27,180
Is there anything like, is it
just, Hey, I'm going to sell my

1144
00:40:27,180 --> 00:40:30,860
house and get out of the market
and vote for different, different

1145
00:40:30,860 --> 00:40:31,220
government.

1146
00:40:31,220 --> 00:40:35,760
Um, uh, so I'm not laughing at

1147
00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:36,380
your question.

1148
00:40:36,380 --> 00:40:37,640
It's just, I laugh.

1149
00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:37,700
laugh.

1150
00:40:37,700 --> 00:40:37,800
Yeah.

1151
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:38,500
Don't worry about it.

1152
00:40:38,500 --> 00:40:40,580
I'm trying to be polite.

1153
00:40:40,580 --> 00:40:43,680
I said no. No, the reason I'm
thinking is that, I mean, the

1154
00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:46,380
reality is the individual is
almost powerless in this

1155
00:40:46,380 --> 00:40:46,680
situation.

1156
00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:49,980
And this is why I keep calling on

1157
00:40:49,980 --> 00:40:52,120
our public governments, both the
provincial and the federal

1158
00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:52,420
government.

1159
00:40:52,420 --> 00:40:54,020
The federal government's got to

1160
00:40:54,020 --> 00:40:55,480
step forward on this too.

1161
00:40:55,720 --> 00:40:57,660
This is about the economy in

1162
00:40:57,660 --> 00:40:58,200
British Columbia.

1163
00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:00,060
And we are part of the federation

1164
00:41:00,060 --> 00:41:01,920
after all.

1165
00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:05,770
And so I don't know what to say to

1166
00:41:05,770 --> 00:41:06,590
that question.

1167
00:41:06,590 --> 00:41:08,090
I understand it's the core

1168
00:41:08,090 --> 00:41:10,810
question for your listeners.

1169
00:41:10,810 --> 00:41:13,430
So I ultimately believe there's

1170
00:41:13,430 --> 00:41:14,930
only one answer to this.

1171
00:41:15,350 --> 00:41:16,530
So here's my answer.

1172
00:41:16,530 --> 00:41:19,290
I ultimately believe that at the
end of the day, indefeasible title

1173
00:41:19,290 --> 00:41:20,990
has to stay indefeasible as a
title.

1174
00:41:20,990 --> 00:41:25,210
Now, why do I say that?
I say that because the alternative

1175
00:41:25,210 --> 00:41:26,410
is bleak.

1176
00:41:26,410 --> 00:41:30,430
It would mean that we would be the

1177
00:41:30,430 --> 00:41:32,670
only jurisdiction in any of the
Western economies.

1178
00:41:32,690 --> 00:41:33,590
Were your indefeasible titles
defeasible?

1179
00:41:33,590 --> 00:41:36,830
I don't have to tell both of you,
I know what you do and your

1180
00:41:36,830 --> 00:41:38,610
expertise or any of your
listeners, what that means.

1181
00:41:38,610 --> 00:41:40,170
That is bleak is probably an
understatement.

1182
00:41:40,170 --> 00:41:43,570
So I believe that ultimately the
courts will do the right thing and

1183
00:41:43,570 --> 00:41:46,890
say, no, no, no, no. This was
never the intention of Section 35.

1184
00:41:47,450 --> 00:41:50,050
You know, reconciliation has got
to be a two -way street.

1185
00:41:50,050 --> 00:41:51,750
It's not a one -way street.

1186
00:41:51,750 --> 00:41:52,890
We know this already.

1187
00:41:52,890 --> 00:41:56,530
And in the meantime, it's a buying
opportunity as the market slumps.

1188
00:41:56,530 --> 00:41:59,810
I'm not blaming it all on the
Cowichan decision, to be very

1189
00:41:59,810 --> 00:42:00,250
clear.

1190
00:42:00,250 --> 00:42:03,490
I think we're already in a market

1191
00:42:03,490 --> 00:42:03,690
slump.

1192
00:42:03,690 --> 00:42:05,230
It doesn't help.

1193
00:42:05,230 --> 00:42:05,990
And I'll stand by that.

1194
00:42:05,990 --> 00:42:08,270
I don't think somebody can debate

1195
00:42:08,270 --> 00:42:08,950
that with me.

1196
00:42:08,950 --> 00:42:09,890
It doesn't help.

1197
00:42:09,890 --> 00:42:11,390
But I think there's opportunities
right now.

1198
00:42:11,390 --> 00:42:15,130
And I think people have to make
that individual decision where

1199
00:42:15,270 --> 00:42:15,890
they're at.

1200
00:42:15,890 --> 00:42:18,750
I mean, I feel for people maybe

1201
00:42:18,750 --> 00:42:22,350
towards retirement that were
waiting to sell their home.

1202
00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:25,480
I'm worried to see what happens in
26.

1203
00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:27,020
The lenders have not been vocal
about it.

1204
00:42:27,100 --> 00:42:29,020
I think in some ways that's a good
thing.

1205
00:42:29,020 --> 00:42:31,240
The problem is that the province
takes that as acquiescence.

1206
00:42:31,240 --> 00:42:32,140
This is the problem in British
government.

1207
00:42:32,140 --> 00:42:33,540
We've had this for three decades.

1208
00:42:33,540 --> 00:42:35,720
And again, I'm not blaming the

1209
00:42:35,900 --> 00:42:36,660
current government alone.

1210
00:42:36,660 --> 00:42:37,480
I've been saying this.

1211
00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:39,100
nuance and subtlety with this
government get you nowhere.

1212
00:42:39,100 --> 00:42:40,960
If it's not directed, that's the
problem.

1213
00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:45,020
Is there somewhere you can look up
to see where there's a claim?

1214
00:42:45,020 --> 00:42:48,120
can look up to see where there's a
claim?

1215
00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:51,400
There's no one site, but on the
Government of British Columbia

1216
00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:53,720
website under Indigenous
Relations, they have their claims

1217
00:42:53,800 --> 00:42:54,200
page.

1218
00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:55,480
And you can see where First

1219
00:42:55,620 --> 00:42:57,380
Nations claim throughout the
province.

1220
00:42:57,380 --> 00:42:58,780
And that's actually a great
resource.

1221
00:42:58,780 --> 00:43:00,320
The Treaty Commission is a great
resource.

1222
00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:01,220
And the Federal Crown Indigenous
Relations website, that's where we

1223
00:43:01,220 --> 00:43:03,020
go, quite frankly, to get.

1224
00:43:03,220 --> 00:43:04,280
where the claims... I feel like

1225
00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:07,060
there's an app opportunity here
for someone to fire up an app that

1226
00:43:07,060 --> 00:43:08,660
you just type in your address and
see how many...

1227
00:43:08,660 --> 00:43:09,820
Unfortunately, that's a good idea.

1228
00:43:09,820 --> 00:43:12,220
like there's an app opportunity

1229
00:43:12,220 --> 00:43:18,880
here for someone to fire up an app
that you just type in your address

1230
00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:20,320
and see how many... that's a good
idea.

1231
00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:23,940
I wish I didn't have to say that.

1232
00:43:23,940 --> 00:43:25,560
That's actually a good idea.

1233
00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:27,460
I mean, the problem is, though, is
look, we can live with assertions

1234
00:43:27,460 --> 00:43:27,720
of title.

1235
00:43:27,720 --> 00:43:28,720
I want to be clear.

1236
00:43:28,720 --> 00:43:31,260
We've lived under assertions of
title.

1237
00:43:31,720 --> 00:43:35,540
First Nations have a right to
assert title.

1238
00:43:35,540 --> 00:43:42,260
The issue is what is our public
government doing to have a game

1239
00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:44,520
plan on how we're going to get...

1240
00:43:44,520 --> 00:43:45,220
to ultimate reconciliation.

1241
00:43:45,220 --> 00:43:50,940
We don't have that and we haven't
had it and we need that and we

1242
00:43:50,940 --> 00:43:54,420
need it pronto and we need
leadership statements from our

1243
00:43:54,420 --> 00:43:57,460
government on what they're going
to do to protect our markets.

1244
00:43:57,460 --> 00:44:01,000
And it's not enough to say, well,
we're going to file an appeal.

1245
00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:01,140
Yeah.

1246
00:44:01,240 --> 00:44:01,300
Yeah.

1247
00:44:01,300 --> 00:44:01,380
Great.

1248
00:44:01,380 --> 00:44:01,480
Good.

1249
00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:04,060
We're in an emergency situation
and I think it demands an

1250
00:44:04,060 --> 00:44:04,660
emergency action.

1251
00:44:04,660 --> 00:44:07,390
I mean, this is why we have

1252
00:44:07,390 --> 00:44:09,910
governments is that when we have
an emergency, I don't know what

1253
00:44:09,910 --> 00:44:13,870
you guys are feeling, but, you
know, I talk to a lot of people.

1254
00:44:13,870 --> 00:44:18,590
I meet a lot of people every week
across the country.

1255
00:44:18,590 --> 00:44:21,670
Lately in British Columbia, I live
in BC, but I've been meeting a lot

1256
00:44:21,670 --> 00:44:22,470
of people in BC lately.

1257
00:44:22,470 --> 00:44:24,370
There's a hungry need for

1258
00:44:24,370 --> 00:44:25,690
leadership right now.

1259
00:44:25,690 --> 00:44:28,270
I think people would welcome

1260
00:44:28,270 --> 00:44:30,850
really clear, crisp leadership
from Premier Eby right now.

1261
00:44:30,850 --> 00:44:33,440
I mean, very genuinely, even
towards him.

1262
00:44:33,440 --> 00:44:37,920
We need that right now in this
regards which party you vote for.

1263
00:44:37,940 --> 00:44:38,820
There's a hunger right now.

1264
00:44:38,820 --> 00:44:40,300
for crisp, clear leadership and

1265
00:44:40,300 --> 00:44:43,420
guidance about where this province
is going.

1266
00:44:43,740 --> 00:44:46,660
That would be welcomed, I think,
by everybody.

1267
00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:51,380
And I think that answers a bit of
the earlier question, except then

1268
00:44:51,380 --> 00:44:54,380
it's up to people to call their
MLAs and go, please give some

1269
00:44:54,380 --> 00:44:55,260
clearer guidance.

1270
00:44:55,930 --> 00:44:58,610
What should people be looking out

1271
00:44:58,610 --> 00:44:59,610
for?
Like, what's the next step?

1272
00:44:59,870 --> 00:45:02,290
Like, what's the next thing that's
going to hit the news?

1273
00:45:02,490 --> 00:45:06,010
We are waiting for a decision from
New Brunswick.

1274
00:45:06,010 --> 00:45:08,030
Very different case, but
ultimately dealing with the role

1275
00:45:08,030 --> 00:45:09,170
of private property in Aboriginal
title.

1276
00:45:09,190 --> 00:45:10,510
That decision is coming very, very
soon.

1277
00:45:10,510 --> 00:45:12,490
So, and that'll be from an
appellate court.

1278
00:45:12,490 --> 00:45:15,390
Remember I said the lower court
and the court of...

1279
00:45:15,390 --> 00:45:17,330
Well, in New Brunswick, the
superior court is the New

1280
00:45:17,330 --> 00:45:19,060
Brunswick Court of Appeal.

1281
00:45:19,060 --> 00:45:21,440
The next court after that is the

1282
00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:22,120
Supreme Court of Canada.

1283
00:45:22,120 --> 00:45:23,960
That decision is coming soon.

1284
00:45:23,960 --> 00:45:25,940
Second, the Cowichan decision,
waiting for the order to be

1285
00:45:25,940 --> 00:45:26,620
settled.

1286
00:45:26,620 --> 00:45:28,840
And remember, Montrose has a

1287
00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:31,540
motion to be added as a party to
that.

1288
00:45:31,540 --> 00:45:35,180
And so I believe that motion needs
to be heard first.

1289
00:45:35,240 --> 00:45:38,300
I believe I could be wrong on
that, but we need to settle that

1290
00:45:38,300 --> 00:45:41,740
order in Cowich before we can be
talking about an appeal and

1291
00:45:41,740 --> 00:45:42,640
interveners and all that business.

1292
00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:43,980
So that's what I'd be watching out

1293
00:45:43,980 --> 00:45:44,340
there.

1294
00:45:44,340 --> 00:45:46,460
My law firm is castles

1295
00:45:46,460 --> 00:45:49,450
com, C -A -S -S -E -L -S.

1296
00:45:49,450 --> 00:45:51,730
People type in my last name,

1297
00:45:51,730 --> 00:45:53,810
Isaac, I -S -A -A -C.

1298
00:45:53,810 --> 00:45:54,650
They'll get my bio.

1299
00:45:54,650 --> 00:45:55,950
We produce a fair amount of
material.

1300
00:45:55,950 --> 00:45:55,770
You can add your name to our
mailing list.

1301
00:45:55,770 --> 00:45:58,510
And look, I really thank both of
you, by the way.

1302
00:45:58,510 --> 00:46:03,630
I mean it very genuinely in being
able to talk about these issues.

1303
00:46:03,630 --> 00:46:06,810
I think we need to encourage civil
dialogue, respectful dialogue to

1304
00:46:06,810 --> 00:46:09,210
our Indigenous friends and to our
non -Indigenous friends.

1305
00:46:09,410 --> 00:46:12,410
So we've got to work our way
through this.

1306
00:46:12,410 --> 00:46:16,730
But we need to start talking the
truth about how we're all going to

1307
00:46:16,730 --> 00:46:19,150
live together and have a
prosperous, it's one thing to live

1308
00:46:19,150 --> 00:46:21,110
together, but if it isn't
prosperous and it's not attracting

1309
00:46:21,110 --> 00:46:21,190
capital.

1310
00:46:21,190 --> 00:46:22,530
It's not going to be a very nice

1311
00:46:22,530 --> 00:46:22,930
living arrangement.

1312
00:46:22,930 --> 00:46:18,590
You know, like living with a

1313
00:46:18,590 --> 00:46:19,770
spouse, no income coming in.

1314
00:46:19,770 --> 00:46:20,930
It can be a little pesty.

1315
00:46:20,930 --> 00:46:21,910
Nice when there's lots of cash
flowing around.

1316
00:46:21,910 --> 00:46:22,930
Well, no, but it is.

1317
00:46:23,550 --> 00:46:25,290
We need to start looking at our

1318
00:46:25,290 --> 00:46:25,810
province that way.

1319
00:46:25,810 --> 00:46:28,550
And look, I get there's tension on

1320
00:46:28,690 --> 00:46:31,550
our environment and that, but we
live in a capitalistic world and

1321
00:46:31,550 --> 00:46:34,590
First Nations also and Métis also
have a right to economic

1322
00:46:34,590 --> 00:46:34,870
sovereignty.

1323
00:46:34,870 --> 00:46:37,110
So we better start figuring this.

1324
00:46:37,110 --> 00:46:40,530
this out so but thank you by the
way i really appreciate the

1325
00:46:40,530 --> 00:46:45,970
opportunity i hope i wasn't too
obtuse i tried to use a bit more

1326
00:46:45,970 --> 00:46:51,140
plain language that i the doctor
but thanks to both of you oh you

1327
00:46:51,140 --> 00:46:53,480
were awesome yeah really
appreciate it we'd love to have

1328
00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:58,220
you on in the future once yeah we
kind of know more about this

1329
00:46:58,220 --> 00:47:01,240
obviously you were awesome yeah
really appreciate it we'd love to

1330
00:47:01,240 --> 00:47:06,880
have you on in the future once
yeah we kind of know more about

1331
00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:07,200
this obviously