Love, We Have Options

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Jay dot il a production of I Heart Radio. Well Hello, hi everybody, welcome back to our roum Jay dot Elder podcast. It is a pleasure to be here with you. This is Jill Scott and I'm here with my sister friends. You know who they are, but I'm always always gonna tell their names because i just want to make sure it makes certain that this point with your first time listening to j dot Elga podcast. But h here goes. I have the lovely Aga Graden Dans. Yes, ma'am, Yes, ma'am that's me. That's who I am. I'm the brilliantly wind of my head. Lies. St Clair had a whole like bonjou mean, that's all right? What's up? Hi body? So thank you so much for listening to us today. We have a very very interesting conversation because you know, that's what we do. We like to have conversation at Sparks, conversation and action. M So, I saw something recently, I think it was uh la la uh and she had talked about marriage and how marriage um is like miserable for people, and I thought that was really sad. First of all, I mean as a two time divorce. Yeah, I gotta honest with you'all all the way there. I know that it can be kind of miserable, but I think that happens when you got the wrong motherfucker. You just got the wrong person. You picked the wrong person. They don't have the the the same kind of dreams or goals or determination to reach those goals either. And that's that's like, that's sad. I mean to be with anybody, but it happens. Do happen, That's happened. There's ways around that. I'm sure, um one probably taking your sweet time and finding somebody that uh, you know, actually suits you. Or you could get lucky. You could get lucky, really really lucky, super blessed by meeting somebody like agr grading dance like uh like trip up booming robot right rot. Hey, let's have a thousand kids. Let's just have a thousand of them. Let's just have a whole lot of those, you know. And then some people want to, you know, make a whole bunch of money together. But ultimately, I think people really want to if they're going to get married, they ultimately want to enjoy life together. Everybody has to go out. Everybody wants to enjoy the life that you know, as as as a general rule like no, every not absent of challenges, but you know, to have a deep sense of joy. Yeah, a deep sense of joy. Well, today we've got some people here. Huh. We've got some people will tell you all the bottom. Huh. There's a Polly. The Polly couple next door. Um follows the marital journey of Mickey Bay and Rahimli from getting engaged on their first date date they got a date, marrying ninety days later, to deciding to have an open marriage after four years of monogamy. They take you along as they learn the ins and outs of open relating in a polyamorous lifestyle. Now, after seven years of marriage, most people, you know, a lot of people don't make the past five, y'all. Okay, one of them. That's actually that's actually the number that's when the ship really starts hitting the fan. After seven years of marriage, Mickey and Rheem have decided to publicly share their story in hopes of educating people on the options. Uh huh, say that options that exists in relationships structures. And they are here with us today. They're gonna talk to us about polyamorous relationships because uh uh, you know, there's a lot of misconceptions about it. So a lot of people think that y'all just wiling. You know that, oh just everybody get to do everything. But you're welcome and rheal, thanks for coming and and thank you. Let's start there. Let's because I know some of y'all are sitting there like the people. Oh no, thank you so much for having us. It's a hell of the stories. Oh yeah, we have to have you all on because I don't think there's another story out there like this, right, I don't think so. I think we're probably the only ones to at least say it. You know that we were married in ninety days after getting engaged on the first date, and now we're in an open marriage. I haven't heard that anywhere else. Let's go, let's start from the beg. I don't even know should we start from the beginning? And y'all, I don't even know if this you started at the beginning of the window. I would love to know. How did you know? How? I like how she tell So what I will say is that at that time in my life, I was very spiritual, I was very religious, and I was fed up I lived in l A for ten years. I was single, single, single, single, and I just looked up and I said, you know what, God, I know that I'm a wife, and I'm just gonna give this to you because I can't take it anymore. So it was during Lent I went on a fast and during that fast, I started feeling what I thought was my husband's energy coming closer to me. And I had asked for some specific things. I said, I'm so tired of dating. Please let this man see me and know that it is me. So when I met him on that first date, we went to get pancakes in the valley and we only had one converse that the conversation the night before we get there, he hugs me, and immediately when he hugged me, I knew that he was my husband because I had been having a reoccurring dream since I was twenty six about this man who was dark skinned and bald. I couldn't see his face, but he hugged me in the dream, and I could feel the when he hugged me, I felt the exact same energy, and I was like, this is him. So then when he asked me about forty five minutes into the conversation, would I marry him? I initially said no, and he said why and I said, because I want a better post. So I went to the bathroom, came back. He made me a ring out of the paper packets, the sugar paper packets, and proposed to me outside the front of this pancake place and it was a million people because it's a Sunday in l A for branch, right, so it's a million people outside. Gets down, asked me to marry him with my whole government day and I said yes, And literally we are strangers at this point, right. So that particular day, he was moving from l A to go back to Philly, and so we literally went back to his empty apartment and try to figure out if you really engaged. And I'm looking at him, He's looking at me. He's like, you're real all for real? Are you for real? Alf real? So we just said, you know what, why don't we go ahead with your plan to move back to Philly and let's see how it goes long distance. But that did not work out. He ended up moving back to l A. Two weeks later. We got into Christian marriage counseling. The very next day. Did that for eleven weeks and got married the day after we graduated. Well, see, you need to come back and talk about this separate from the pole and reach y'all. That's a whole other. That's a whole other. But I'm glad you said this. First of all, Every part, every bit of me is filled with glee because number one, like I think it's so important for people who are listening, who are Christian or who are Abrahamic religion based to sit here to listen to you say this was your starting space, right, because a lot of times people think that all kinds of people get to the end of the road without any of that as a foundation. They want to throw those things out there, and I'm not assuming what people will think. I'm just glad that that is a part of your story because it takes away that immediate like response of like defensiveness that I think people would have at this moment. They have been calling us godless, I mean, they have been saying every We have been called everything under the sun. But I expect that and really my reason, my reasoning for wanting to have this conversation out in the open in a very public format is because we as black people need to know that we have options in everything, including how we relate to people, and so much of our lives we default just to what our parents wanted, what is expected of us from society, and we have to fit into this little box. And my reason for this is just to say my way might not be your way, but maybe there's a way for you not to be miserable in your marriage, for you to be able to actually grow old with someone, because I am a completely different person than I was seven years ago when I got married, Like, I don't even recognize her right so, and and if we stay married twenty five more years, I'm probably gonna be seven more people. So the idea is not that you know the person that you're married today, God willing is not the same person twenty five years later. You want to be and you want to be exactly. And so I'm grateful that I did not choose my husband. I allowed God to choose my husband, and therefore we have been able to make it room so much, and we've had a lot. My mother died the very next day after I met him, so and then his best friend died six months later, so we were grieving the first few years of our marriage, on top of getting to know each other, on top of leaving l A to start a life in Houston, on top of getting my my bonus daughter's coming to live with us two weeks after we got married. I mean we added brown at us more real talk after the break. So you guys were clearly not really afraid of like therapy and counseling and stuff like that because you started in that space. Once you guys realize, Okay, we have jumped into something that we both want deeply. But it has come with like you said, grief, with uh, you know, extended family, it has come with you know, distance, all of these things. What was the thing that you all decided to do together to address these kind of really large, overarching issues that could have really literally broke you up? And talk about two where you were in your head because I loved that we got key perspective, but you had to be able to receive go ahead. Absolutely. So a lot of people always ask me, how could I do this on the first day? Right obvious questions? And I always tell people is it was the vulnerability of where we were together, right. I was in l A for I was in l A for four years, l A had did the thing too, it just did not work out. Liar was there, was there at the end. Um l A was just not working out. So when I met her, the first message that I sent to her on a dating map where I felt that I shouldn't have been anyway because I was literally moving in a week. So we had breakfast, and what what was evident to me is that if we can always be this honest with each other and this vulnerable, we can conquer anything. Because I was on my last I was literally moving back to Philly that afternoon, like literally we had breakfast at nine. I was taking a train from l A to Philly at like four, And when she asked me to breakfast that morning, I'm I'm in my head. I'm like, yeah, I'd like to meet you, but I'm literally out in a couple of hours. My daughters we all lived in l A. My daughters and their mother lived in l A. They dropped me off. They were gonna take me to the train station because I lost my car, Like everything bad was happening in my life. And I said, you know what what I mean, one little shining moment before I leave l A. All right, let's go to breakfast, right, And it was the vulnerability and that goes into which your question aga is I said, and we said that if we can just be vulnerable and and have transparency and to stee with each other through all the things that we know is gonna trip us up, we can survive. Like we had a really rough but at the end of the day, we said, you know what, let's get back to what we said we were gonna do, be honest with each other, be vulnerable. And it's not the most uh, it's not the simple thing, right, but we always try to go back to the point with you know, let's just be vulnerable, right, because like she said, we are going to continuously change, and we're changing literally right now. And the fact that we could still remain vulnerable even when it's really really tough is what helped us get through all of these changes. And it's been up and down seven years. But we've lived in five different states, we've lived in six different cribs. You know, my daughters had a rough year last year. They're in Delaware now, so they're in college. You know, we have a three year old son almost four, like, so we we've been dodging a lot of things. But at the end of the day, we decided that the honesty, the vulnerability, even when we struggle for it, UM is like the common denominator for us. I'm looking here. You also, the two of you have a skill set, you know, UM for for for anybody UM listening here, understand that Mickey Bay is a relationship expert and life coach specializing in manifestation and emotional regulation. Okay, like that's okay, okay, emotional regulation. Wow, Okay, Yeah, that's a good partner to have. I wasn't that seven years ago, though, got it right? So? You know, evolution, yes, and the evolution of I mean, I've been everything from a celebrity bankup artist, lash lash uh owner. You know, I had a business in l A. I was an eyelash sension um technician. So I've done done a lot of different things. And he's been with me on that journey. And I think the good thing to know is that good relationships still go through bad times, and don't make the bad times the culmination of what you are and know that this is a conflict that can actually cause you to go deeper with your mate. And I always look at people who say, like oh we have. We've been together five years and we haven't ever had an argument. I'm like, well, y'all not being really right. You're not giving yourself even an opportunity to go and load the surface with this person that you're with, who is multifaceted, right, and you're not even giving yourself an opportunity. Conflict is a gift, and when people are conflict avoided, they're really um not allowing themselves to grow for themselves, for their own evolution, and also not allowing the growth of the relationship. And you pick a partner who would later um become a up level communication coach? What is up level? That mean up level is a system was developed by a woman named Ken and Kate Stevens. You've probably seen her if you haven't noticed, Like, she's like the Polly Queen. She's one with the two husbands I have locks, right, Yeah, So that's my coach. She has a whole new paradigm of communication and uh, she's been in this this space of communication relating in uh polyamory for like twenty years. So I took her course in conflict resolution and it's it's changed my relationship, Our relationship is changed. How I communicate with partners, how how I communicate with my kids, how to communicate with my son. And he's only three years old. So it's like she's talking about conflict is a gift. It's really a gift when you know how to do it right right, when you're not beating your your partner up for being you know, fulfilling all these you know, checking all these boxes and meeting all these expectations that you might have. So that has been in the last I guess six months. We started that process and we do it every day. It's a whole process. It's not difficult, but it starts with just realizing that I you uh the self. We create our own lives. We create every situation that we're in, and life is happening for us and not to us, and things that things that happen are not happening to us. Right. We all have a different perspective and that communication style and the things that I'm coaching on, I mean, just revolutionalized our relationship. How we communicate with each other. We don't stay mad at each other, you know, the whole don't go to bid angry type of bility. We can do that because we're really processing conflict and in in a way where we say is the right? But yeah, the things that our elders were telling us, you know, those those simple things, don't they They had happiness and but it never said how. They never said that's what I'm about to say, So what does that look like for you? Guys? They never say how. They never say how. When we we um, the first step is called the venting process. When you set a container for um for conflict. Now, instead of rushing in the house and saying I'm mad about this thing, what I'm saying is, babe, can you hold space for me to vent something that's on my heart? I'm asking permission, right, I'm I'm asking her to set space for me. I'm telling her what level one, Hey, I'm at a level five of anger? Right, can you hold space for me? And she agrees to hold that space for me. I let her have it. I give everything I had. She doesn't say one word, and at the end of that she just says, thank you. How can I support you? And if she does that, if she's like, I don't have it. If she doesn't she's like I don't have it right now, then I either wait till she does or event to someone else, because I still got I still got what. You know, if she says, you know what, the boy needs to be fed, Let's put him to bed, and then I can hold space for you. Right, I'm not coming at her anger, because if I come at her with walking the door and say I'm mad, the boy still needs to be put to bed. Right, she had a long day. I had a long day. Now she's mad at the fact that I'm not respecting that she's busy. Right, So now we got anger on top of anger. But now she holds that space for me. Now she's calm, she knows that it's coming, she knows that I have a lot on my heart, she can receive it. And at the end of the day, and this is for everybody. What you want, what we want out of an argument or event, we just want to feel better. We don't expect that that thing that we want to happen is going to happen in the second that you express yourself. Right, you know you didn't watch the dishes. Well, the dishes are not gonna be washed in the next two minutes. That you're anger. But what we want is to feel heard and to feel better after we get that off our chests. So once she says, how can I soothe you? I have a list of things she can soothe me with touch. Uh she can uh repeat what I said. She can simulate something for me. We were making agreements to to to feel better because at the end of the love language, I just want to feel better. I want to know that I'm hurt and I just want to feel better. So wait, so y'all have the tools now. Y'all have the tools now. However, when the polyamory conversation was introduced between you guys, the tools weren't necessarily there. So tell us I just I really want you all to tell the story about how this first came up in conversation. We have a difference of opinion on how it initially came up. I said that we were laying in the bed and you know, I brought it up to him. He says that we were actually in conflict when it happens. I'll let him tell that one. Oh, but down, let me get let me get my tea. The real version is a combination of the two. Where where it started was, you know, we're in not set third year marriage and we just started questioning stuff like forty years right, right, yeah, forever ever, Like we just kept coming up with questions like why My main question is why hasn't marriage evolved from the first marriage, Like, it's the same thing if you say I'm married, and assuming you're hetero sexual, and this is very Eurocentric, what's the first man? This is what I'm saying. This is exactly what I'm saying. This exactly what I'm saying, going to our Western way of thinking. If you say I'm married, it means one thing. Yeah, if you're a woman, that you're married to a man, and that's your monogamous that's it. There's no vows of the same like if you say viows you you know, you know for good or for bad, blah blah blah blah, what means something. And the conversation that came kept coming up for us was that why can't it be a little different? Why why can't I have female friends when I'm in a monogamous relationship, Because generally when you get married, and Micky'll tell you she lost some male friends because she just assumed that she just had to get rid because she was married. Now, y'all were always thinking like this, how do I know because I was friends with Roanheme, so I'm like, no, it was a process. Yea, yeah, so that's what I was saying. We just start having conversations and like little jokes over a course of a year where we're just like, you know what, this is gonna be difficult, Like we need to choose each other every single day, as opposed to thinking thirty years from that because we don't know who we're gonna be next week, and to think thirty years from now that I'm gonna love you the same, I'm gonna meet you saying I'm gonna want you to say and you know, and thirty years it was just nuts to me, and we just said, you know, let's do this every single day now. Where the conflict came in my version is that we were in a fight and she, uh, you know, I wasn't listening. I was a dumb boy, and she said, you know what, fucking we pollock And now we got to put that on a T shirt. Because people like well spun version, so we're trying to combine those versions. I think, well, I personally like the I like the Mickeys, I like that fuck it we Polly and what and what And then the next day we were like, you know, and this was like during COVID, so we were like Polly Polly, but we were open to the idea of like really trying to have friendships and partnerships and seeing what that really looked like. It's seeing how we felt doing all that stuff, and it we we settled into it, and then we moved to Atlanta afterwards, so we no, no, no, you're going fast because you gotta established Like, Okay, Mickey Bay say fuck it. We Polly, what does that mean to Mickey Bay and Rahim we could do this. I meet the person, like, how do you? What's the We went all the way in, We went all the way in. I think when that happened, we were both like on dating sites the next day, you know, so it was pretty much like we were on dating sites separate, separately, correct, So we we do not date together. There are some couples who do, but we decided that we wanted to date separately. And at that time, I mean, I have a different awareness now that I didn't have when I was asking for the open marriage. I was really questioning a lot about my sexuality at that time, and I didn't know what was going on. I just knew that we had a terrible mismatch in his sex drive and my sex drive, and it was really really painful for me to feel like I could not provide the level of intimacy that my husband really wanted for me, and I tried, and then it just got worse after the baby, right, So I was really struggling trying to find a way to keep my marriage because I love him and we're great together, but this one piece was not there for us, right, It just was not, And I didn't have the awareness then that I have now. Now I know that I'm on the A sexual spectrum and that has really been so clarifying to me, and I'm so glad I didn't wait to figure that piece out before we opened our marriage, because who knows if we wouldn't be made it this far right. So, I think just our willingness to take into account the people who are actually in the marriage versus the marriage as the main thing. I see him as an individual who I'm married to. He still gets to be who he is and I still get to be who I am, And for me being Pobby, it's more so about the freedom of it, and especially as a black woman. I just feel like it's so revolutionary to be able to say I get to decide who, what, when where, even though I'm a married woman. No one gets to decide that for me because I am an adult and I get to decide how I relate to any other adult. And that is not something I'm willing to advocate just because I'm married. Girl, you just blew the child. You just blew the wigs off. You just you just brew the wigs off for many many a person. Just now. So people listening right now, like, well, god, that in my child. I feel like, what's interesting and actually really needed is this idea that a person can be married and have a conversation with their mate that is strictly about who they are as a person and how to live the life that they want to live. Specifically about that, because I think that's not really what happens. People get married and it's like every conversation that you have has to be about us, has to be about the group, what's good for the group and so, and I mean, and that's just the way that it goes. But I think that that that kind of shifting of culture around like, well, no, the marriage is also a place to talk about and always has been. That's the funny part is that basically what y'all are actually saying is that marriage was never not that. It was just not that because you decided it was not that. Was like, it wasn't that because everybody told you it was not that, and you just went on the head with it and never questioned it, never did anything else, and then may have lost out on somebody who you really could have had a good life with because they didn't fit into that, into that box. You know what I'm saying. We're gonna take a quick break and then we'll be right back. People say that, um, that marriage is like the death of yourself, and I thought that was the saddest thing I've said. I mean, I I totally believe in marriage. So you know, even though I have been divorced twice, Um, I don't even count that. We count it. If you don't, we won't don't acknowledge we won't. I mean is that that I don't acknowledge it because definitely, you know, what you learn about yourself is that you can make some dumb decisions for reasons that the society has put on you, or a reason for you know, your grandma. My grandma was like, you're that man without getting married. You got to get married, you know. Um yeah, I'm just saying that. Um, it's so mature. God just sitting there like I'm impressed. I'm impressed with the and to jump there without the tools first either. So it's not like y'all have the tools and then y'all ended up there. Y'all just took a chance and then decided to grow in it. To grow in it? Whoa the other side of it though, as you have just did all the work on yourself, my question is after you decided that you're brave enough and you have uh the right partner that you can express all this too, what about when your partner actually starts enjoying the company of other women And you know, some people say it's the sex, but a lot of times with polyamory is not about just a sex. It's like I am enjoying this person so like the confidence that it takes for another woman or man, because I feel like what raight heem is y'all are equals in this, like as a man having another man enjoy your wife, not just sexually, but intellectually emotionally like it takes a certain kind of confidence in person to get there. And that's to me a whole another step from what you just said, like, how do you do that? Well? I think the thing that is really necessary is to realize you do not own that person, that that person still should be able to decide how they're interacting with someone. And I think what men, especially get really tripped up on is that's my woman, right, and anyone defiles my woman. I mean you should see the intere Beyonce's Internet is going crazy telling him about Okay, yeah, oh, I saw you all kinds of you know everything. I'm like, y'all, it's the a sexual part. But anyways, um, but the thing about it is the thing about it is I think that when you start to really look at the person as their own entity and what is going to make that person happy. I am committed to his happiness, whether it involves me or not. And I want for him to enjoy the time that he is away from myself, away from his family. I do not expect that he is going out in the world and coming back stressed. I want him to be coming back happy, right. I want him to enjoy his time with whomever he's with, whether it's a woman, whether it's an old friend, whoever it is, because I'm not concerned that he's going to walk in the door and and pack his bags and leave. I know that if that were to happen, I would have known well before he gets to the point of packing a bag, because we talk. We have that openness between us that he could tell me, you know what, I'm thinking that I want to be over here and this is what I want to do. And I would say if he ever decided that, if that is what it's going to make him happy, I am for it. And I get that that does not sound like a married part and talking like that, But ultimately, why would I want to be in a marriage with someone who doesn't want to be here? So why is that even a fear? It's an irrational fear to even to even have that in the first place, Because do you really want to hang on to someone who's saying I want to be over here? And in our marriage, and we've been through many different seasons um in these past few years that we've been Polly, I had fallen in love with someone and it was very, very difficult or both it is. It was difficult for me to have strong feelings for someone else. So being Polly means that you have the capability to have more than one loving relationship. That is the definition. So yes, the expectation for us is that we are treating all of our partners with love. I expect that he's going to love the women that he's a no matter. In fact, I make sure they get the treatment they're supposed to get. Well. It means that for instant he has he has a partner whose birthday is coming up, like what you getting her for her birthday? Oh? Or are you gonna? Did you? And they had a little spat and I said, you need to work it out, go use your tools, right, So sure, I mean I don't know something. Actually, some of this does sound slightly familiar because I do know people who are involved in polygamy and so sometimes same tools. Um, you know, it is not nearly as equitable, you know what I'm saying. But but that's coming from a mono lens. It is exactly. It is equitable because the women are actually choosing that relationship dynamic. They're actually choosing that right, They're actually making that choice. Except for in situations where they feel like they have to do it under the rest where it's like economic or whatever the case may be. In some instances it's not quite equitable, but in theory yet and there are some people participate in it and it is very equital. But but yeah, I mean yeah, I mean, I hear. I've heard these kinds of tools being used in that instance as well. Just like this is just high level communication. And we talked about this before we got on with you guys. That is like, if you don't have a very strong constitution between the two people and that those people are willing to make sure that that is important to them, then you know, then you cannot exist in this. And this is really like high level communication and high level honesty as well. And can I just say this, I feel ashamed. I'm sorry, Like, yeah, I love you. I'm ashamed that the way that we I'm thinking and I'm ashamed that the way that we describe our relationships with each other. Number one, that we would assume that sex means defilement. That's just sad, and that too, and that and that everything everything that we expect to connect with people is um is only sexual. And the third thing that really kind of made me sad was the idea that the possession of each other. And it's funny because I have said my man and my husband and millions he is my husband. But you understand I'm saying, like the possession aspect of it. I'm not sure if I really focused in on how toxic that type of language is, even if you're monogamous. That is just that that's a problem. That is a problem, and it feeds and festers a thing that I'm no longer interested in doing something supremacy. Come on, we don't because we don't mess with the white supremacy up and here we stomp it, we smash it. It's funny, is I actually when I'm describing my wife, I actually try to say my wife as little as possible. I tried to address about her name anytime I'm talking about her because we have slowly moved away from those Western frames of thought and relationship. Like I literally do that consciously where I'm like, I'm if I'm talking about Mickey, I'm talking about me. Even if you don't know my wife, I'll say that's my wife, you know, something like that, where I'm describing who this person is because like she's we we have our own things. We are individuals in this in this relationship. Okay, yeah, this is a lot of merch. I got a question here. I think that when you hear or when we hear polyamorous, you think that that you know, it's so great for the for the male. You know, he could just go out in the world and smash smash the world and then come home to a loving family. And I would like to ask you, Rohan, what do you feel are the benefits for Mickey Bay How does this benefit from your perspective. I'm sure she can absolutely answer, and she did how well to a certain degree, But you know, how do you feel it benefits your partner that you love? On one, let me get back to the practicality of what it really looks like for me to be Polly and and and Mickey and I just had this conversation other day where I was like, yeah, I have the capability and opportunity to have partners and stuff, but it's not super practical, Like it's not practical to be out five nights a week with different partners or even one partner just because I can, right, So you know I have a capacity you know I have a capacity. I can't, you know, just be hollering and everybody and having sex with everybody. So that that's a misconception that we talked about the sex part of it, like that, that's not reality. Right. If I'm able to see one person every other week, I'm lucky just because life be life it right, um uh life? And then I like my own personal time. I like time with my family, So it leaves very little time for to to to really be fruitful in this, right. Um. But it's the freedom, the freedom of mind that I can do it. Um. But to answer your question, I think the benefit, like she said, like Micky said, I think the benefit of it is to know that we talk a lot about checking every single box for your partner, Like I think for me and hopefully for Mickey, is that she doesn't She doesn't have to do that. She doesn't have to fulfill every single desire that I have. And I'm not even talk about sexually. I'm talking about if I want to go my My wife's not a hiker, right, but I like the outdoors. I like to be out there having fun. I'm on my bike. I like to do all these things like I unless I got a homeboy that wants to do that with me. I can choose to have a female friend that does that, and like she said, I can come back fulfilled and the things that my wife does do for me. We can focus on what we're good at, raising our families, starting businesses, loving on each other in the way that we want to love on each other without me having to fill this box that might be difficult for me or difficult for her. Right, we release each other from the things that we're not good at together. You know we were. It's a release because again, Western Western law tells us that your mate has to check all every single one and not only today, but forever. And I tell it is a insane proposition, right forever, were telling the vows forever ever. Now, So you get married at twenty five and you love your spouse, right, you're talking about to seventy eighty years old, I gotta check every single box for you. Right? Did you forget that that married when I was nineteen and you on the phone with somebody that's been together for twenty five years this September? No? Yea, I'm happy he feels free to sell his truth. I mean, I'm just saying like, I'm like, I hear you, like, that's crazy, And not one single person that's been married multiple decades and had that conversation. No, I'm saying, yeah, to be able to release each other from that, from every single thing you say, you know what, these are our five things. Let's make sure we go hard with these five whatever whatever number we descernine, but let's go hard with these things. Like we have our date night, date day, whatever, can't be broken. This is what we do on this particular day, right, this is what we do. We gotta schedule for our son, you know, we take you know, we have lunch, you know, a couple of times a week, we have a date night. We figure things out. We're doing this now, we're speaking out more so. Now this is a part of our life. Right. So it's really the release of being able to say, you know what, that's that's not on my mikulst. I ain't gotta worry about that. But we're focused on the things that we're good at together. And you know, one of those things is like raising our family and like being in real commune with each other. We'll talk about that. It's your internal world. The thing is we got on this podcast to talk about polyamory, but I think you guys have done a lot more to give relationships tools, all kinds of relationships tools that they can use. This this conversation has really been at its core about that and that right there. I don't want that to get lost on people, Like if you listen to this body, if you're at this point in the podcast and you ain't got a jewel yet, I just I don't even know more. Can we beef? Are we friends? For real? Are we you know what I'm saying? Okay, A lot of people jumped to the conclusion. I remember years ago I was on Twitter and I was asking how people felt about being in a I guess it's polyamory. No, I don't think so when you have more than one spouse, and I was asking what they felt about it, and all of a sudden, it was a range shower of no, jail, you can't do that, jail. I didn't think you thought so, some of yourself, jil. I actually even presented it for myself. I just wanted to hear their thoughts. Don't because y'all are enlightened, And that's just people and saddened in their little boxes of traditions and they think, you know, this relationship or relationship like yours is about some freak ships and it's the furthest Yeah, and you know what I think. I think it's it's a matter of perspective. And I say this every time I have this conversation because black people are familiar with this. We were just unethical. You had a grandfather, uncle, or somebody who had a whole family across the town. We all knew it, and you didn't talk about it. Your grandmother knew exactly. You know what I'm saying. My grandmother was gonna relate. Oh my god. Yes, let's not act like we don't know how to do this as a community. We absolutely do. The only thing that is different is that everyone is considered team to this. My grandmother didn't consent, right, She she accepted, but she didn't consent. And I'm not saying my actual grandmother for all my family listen, right, But um, I was just saying, like for for women generations ago who were in marriages, that it was understood. As long as she don't call my house and she seen me as she crossed the street, we're all good. So let's not act like this has not been a part of what our cultural fabric is. Okay. And if you take a look at even the celebrities who are going through very public nasty um, you know, cheating allegations and all kinds of stuff, what could this do for you to not have to break up your whole entire family if you just felt like you could go to your partner and say, hey, I'm feeling like this, and I would I like because you know, there are all types of situations in marriages. There are people who are you know, have hall passes once a year. If you go to Brazil to do longest you don't bring me on the Dominican Republic if you ain't got as much money, okay, Dominican Republic. There are people who are having threesomes. That is also ethical nonmonogamy. They don't want to call it that, but threesomes are a part of underneath the umbrella because you're all consenting to this, right. So there are a lot of different ways in which you can be open relating, but the key word is consensual non monogamy. Right. And also I want to ask answer Jill's question um about how does this benefit me? And on a larger scale, how does it benefit women? So for me, polyamory has been the biggest teacher for me about who I am, and it has peeled that onion back about who I am because you are forced to deal with your own insecurities, you are forced to deal with your triggers, you are forced to deal with all of those things that you don't necessarily want to have to say. But in this situation, I have to actually verbalize what I'm feeling and what I'm thinking, or else everything will crumble. So I have had to not have to. I can't have an internal monologue about this. I have to bring it to him. I have to be able to say, hey, babe, I'm feeling jealous, Hey babe, I'm feeling like I'm not getting enough time. Hey babe, I feel like I need you to rub my feet tonight. Hey. But whatever it is, and it has taught me to have a voice about what I need and what I don't need as well, because in my case, like I said, with this a sexuality thing, which we are still very much figuring out what that means for me, I am demisexual, I am grace sexual, I am phrase sexual, which to sum it up, Um, it mean I need an emotional connection to even think about sex. It means that I may have spikes in desire or attraction that maybe years apart. Right, I was able to I was able to be cellib it for years and not even think about it. And I didn't I didn't realize that that was not something that people can do. Right, I've always been able to do that. I don't have sexual thoughts and desires in my brain right, So a lot of my friends will tell me, oh, we're fantasizing during the day, and I'm like really, like that was news to me. So you don't even masturbate then, right, it's a sexual men, you don't even masturbate. No, So so that's a big misconception. So a sexuality is a huge spectrum and where I fall it doesn't mean I don't have any desire, doesn't mean I don't have any any attraction. But it's like this, it's up and down, it's up and down, and I can't solve for what it's going to make me attractive, and I cannot solve for what's gonna give me desire. Oh, right, that would mean RAHIM would have to be not deeply not take that personal so like before knowing that you were on the spectrum, it could come across as my wife's not attracted to me periods of time without wanting to sleep with me, and he could take that personally and internalize it understood through that, And I think that right there, even black women understanding that they could even be on that spectrum is because I can imagine, you know, one of the things that people come to us all the time, I was, Oh, I feel like I was in a loveless marriage or a sexist marriage. Now I'm thinking back on so many of the people who have said that and thought, Wow, had they known that that was a possibility, that's who they could have said who they were. I mean, my mind is like blown because a lot of the issues that married people talk about are interwoven and folded into the conversation that you're talking about. Not saying that they were all polyamorous or that that would have you know, that would have solved it. I's saying that, Just saying that it really kind of circles back to what you were saying in the very beginning, which was like, this is about you understanding your options that you as black people can relate to one another in multiple ways. I mean, I'm just saying more conversation after the break. Real quick question, when did you guys? Because Rahi talked about his daughters who are of a certain age and you guys been together. He said it was five seven, So when you guys got together, how old were the girls? They turned fourteen? Okay this year. So at what point or have you I thought that you needed to have this conversation? I know you have, but for the for the radio, what point did you did you think that you needed to have this conversation and how did you do that? Um? Well, it was what just a couple of years ago that m Um we were we were visiting. Actually did we tell them? We we did? We told them so, but I told them. I thought it was important to tell them because one of my daughters, UM told us maybe five years ago that she thought she was bisexual. And for a fifteen year old to be that open, We've always had that relationship, but just to be that open and it was really a matter of fact, he dad, guess what it was really just stuff like that. So just that because they had that openness with me and with us, I just thought that it was important to um to make sure that you know, we we we told them what our lifestyle was like. Especially they were older, you know, so they were about eighteen when so, but they were I mean sometimes my one of my daughters might ask, are you dating? Who are you dating? You know what I mean? They haven't met anybody, but they asked questions about it. Yeahn I know people have wondered. Yeah, that is incredible to be you know, a child growing into you know, womanhood and being able to first of all speak to her father, you know about that mom, to her black gen X daddy. Yeah. Yeah, and then the step mama and then my step mama. If I need something else, she's gonna care. She's gonna bring it to me. Let me know, like bring it down in ways that I can understand. Like that's yeah, they were you know. I was so happy that they took it the way that they did, and it really gave us. They were the first people to know, really when it comes to who we who we told in the family, they were the first family members to know. And I think about that all the time that at least they know that you do not have to default to monogamy if you don't so choose. I was monogamous happily for four years of our marriage, right, but I knew that ultimately this was not gonna work because I had some things going on on the inside of me that I didn't have all the information about yet, but I knew something was off right. And so I think what my main message to people is it may not be Polly, Polly, may not be the thing that's for you, but design your life and your marriages, your relationships to fit the people who are in it, and be willing, be willing to think outside of the box to get everything that you need right. Because your happiness is your responsibility. That is not something I can outsource to anyone partner, husband, anybody. I have to make sure that I'm happy within myself first, and I think that is what goes into what Jill said earlier about people being in miserable marriages. Well, you're a miserable person. So if you're a miserable person, you're gonna be in a miserable marriage too, so that you're going to have to do your own inner work. You're going to have to stop making it the other person's problem and look at yourselves, look at yourself, because I truly believe that anyone can make any relationship work. And the reason why I say that is because you guys know we didn't. We were complete strangers. We were basically ninety day fiance. There is no reason we have outlasted people who were together to years and got married and stay married a year. I want you to pull out y'all favorite right now. I mean, there has to be something, There has to be something to it, and I think Rahan said it best, which is we choose each other every day. My expectation is not that he's perfect, is that he's present. My expectation for myself is that I show up as myself in every single setting. And I have to do that first for myself and then for my for my my partner, my person that I'm with and sharing life with. And this is ultimately because I want to be a really good example for our kids that you do get to design your life. You get to be, do or have anything that you want, and that includes marriage, no marriage, multiple marriages, whatever is Can I just add I'm sorry, I was just I was looking at my text with me and around he real quick and I just wanted to mention this because Mickey Bay talked about her manifest stations and things that led to her finding her husband, and as Ran was telling his story, he may not have admitted to this, or maybe he forgot, but before he started really knowing what the manifestation, he was manifesting you. And it's so interesting to see the circle back as his friends sitting there listening to him tell me exactly what he wanted and his wife and we're like looking at her, like, this is a man who said we would sit that light here. This is what I want, I wanted, I have to have it. This is I'm just so proud. I'm just so proud of y'all. Like he is a master manifest er um. And he did not he did not say this, but one of the very sweet things that he did. We had one conversation before we went to breakfast that next day, and he wrote in his notes that I think I found my wife. Her name is Mickey Bay and I will only changed this note if something changes. But he said that before we even met, so he and his spirit also knew. And this is why I do what I do, because I truly believe that anybody can have love if they really look in themselves and say, you know what, I believe that I can attract the love that I want. And he did that and I did that as well. Yes, listen, let's let's put some applause up, proud. I'm just saying, you have one more question, um, because this is I'm taking notes and everything like this is great. Okay, Yeah, I mean, m one more question. Since you too have been really public about your your relationship, how do you deal with the people that are coming with the with the you know, the confusion and the judgment and the whole vitryo all of it all. How are you how are you dealing with that? Well, it's funny. Micky just just say other day and said, look, I'm used to some of this stuff. I've done some line like stuff and I'm used to a little bit of hate. You new to it. And I said, you know what, I don't mind because I know what the truth is, right, I know what the truth is, like, I know what my relationship is based on. And I actually find the comments funny. I mean, I'll go back and forth with you too, because at the end of the day, I'm going to educate you like I want to educate you. I expect you to be an a sayer. I expect you not to understand right, So I literally just oh, word, that's how you feel? Well, how about this? How about you think about it this way? Like I'm I'm all about shifting a conversation somebody on Instagram was saying, how I'm going to divorce my wife after, you know, I realized that she's been with another man and that that that he did this tour and once I think about it, I'm gonna want to divorce. I'm like, You've been in this for almost three years, bro, We've we've been seeing all the different iterations of her being in love, her being having a breakup, me having a breakup, and having to nurture her after she's stopped seeing somebody and vice versa. Like we've seen it all. We talk about the emotions that goes into what what how I feel about how she's feeling outside the house, Like We've done all that. So I'm already able to steer conversations of people who would you know, like you said the vitriol, I'm able to steer those conversations into some kind of education, And by the time I get to the education point, it was like, well, it's not a thing. I get that so much, where they's just like, well, I'm not trying to argue, well, neither of mine. I'm trying to educate, Like I'm all about educating people because like Micky said, at the beginning, people do not even know that this is an option. And you go forty years unmarried person go forty years, no one. The relationship is supposed to be one thing, and then we come with the curveball and it's like, oh no, they ain't how I supposed to go because that's not my my mama did. The resentment of being able of having to think, of having to think critically about your life situation. It is the people resent the fact that they have not been able to get to that point themselves, and they take it personally when it's just a moment, it's a moment to release yourself from that. It's a moment to learn. And one thing I've learned in two was that it's a difficult thing for people to learn. And the other part is we're getting I get just in the same amount of people who are saying, how can I have this conversation with my spouse, like whoa you like, We've done what like five podcasts of lines in the last week, and I'm getting people saying, Yo, I thought I was abnormal for for thinking that I could have a different relationship monogamy. It's crazy to me. I'm sorry I have this question because we were out of time, but but we talked about this earlier and I got to ask you before we go, what would you say or how is it? Or do you have the ability to like weed out when you're talking to other men and it feels like their intention towards polyamory could be a little predatory, Like, oh my gosh, so this is something that is very different on my end. So men typically do not care that I'm married, right, so I can meet a monogamous end quote man who I tell I'm polyamorous and I'm buried and they don't care. They're like, whatever, I still want to date you, right. Well, the problem comes in with your monogamous thinking because at some point, like while you don't know me and you don't have any feelings for me, is cool, But the minute you start to catch feelings, then you're gonna be like, well, I need to see you this day or I can't. I got something going on, you know, at my house with a son, with my husband whatever, and they cannot take it. So I have steered away, and I have literally like cut off people because they just don't have the mindset to be able to be really a part of this, because we really pride ourselves on community and we want people our partners. We want these people to be a part of our family, right, even if it's peripherally. We don't want people bringing a certain type of energy to our household and to each other, right, And so I think both of us have been really good about making sure that we're choosing people who fit with our energy and understand our values and what we're trying to do here. I always say the women that I have met that Raheim has dated, I would be friends with all of them, and some of them I do have friendships with because they are dope women. And when we did our lives, I had one of my friends on there like please get my give your husband my mother, right. I mean, there are people they're looking for about that. It It didn't know, but it happens. And I think that the more we are having these types of conversations, I welcome people to ask questions and to figure out, you know, if this could be something that is right for them or not. I love man. You don't think anything's wrong with Manoby. I just think that there's more than one way to skin a cat. M hm. That is and there it is a cat. Go girl. I used to say back in the day that you know, if I could afford it, why can't I have more than one husband? There you go afford it. You know what. One of the things I always say to people is if you had, just like you said, if you had all the money that you that you that you needed. You have money, you pair of shoes, more than one car, more than one and everything. But when it comes to relationships, it just don't make us feel that. Don't do it in so you think you better than me. All I can say about that is that I changed my perspective when I found the person. Um, how do I know that in ten years it will be the same. I don't know that. But currently I'm enjoying my monogamy, and you know, I really believe that. Sincerely, it is to each his or her own. Thank you so much for listening to Jay dot Il the podcast. This has been eye opening. We are having conversation to spark conversation and action. Thank you so much. Yeah, how do you eat an elephant? One by it? Kid? Hey listeners? Is Amber your producer here? I hope this episode sparked some conversations and broadens your perspectives. My favorite takeaway from this one was that we have choices. We have choices young, we can evolve in whatever ways feel good to us. We are not a monolith confined to one way of being, one way of loving or having a family. And if you want to explore the polyamorous lifestyle more in depth making a raheem, recommend two books. One The Ethical Slat what a title. This guide helps you navigate the infinite possibilities that open relationships can offer into The book is called More Than Two A Practical Guide to Ethical Polyamory. Now. This book dies into the history of non monogamy and the joys and very real challenges of navigating modern polyamory. Love is love is love is love above all, no matter what lifestyle you prescribed to I hope that your love is safe, deeply nourishing an abundant love. You was HI If you have comments on something you said in this episode called eight six six. Hey, Jill, if you want to add to this conversation, that's eight six six nine five four five five. Don't forget to tell us your name and the episode you're referring to. You might just hear your message on a future episode. Thank you for listening to Jill Scott Presents Jay dot Ill. The podcast j dot ill is a production of I heart Radio. For more podcasts from I heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.