A Thin Line Between Loving You and Loving Me

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Jay Dot in a production of My Heart Radis Ladies and Gentlemen, Jill Scott presents Jay Dot Ill with my sister friends A je and and I'm Jill Scott. Okay, okay, mm hmm. Having one of those days, ladies and gentlemen. Oh, today we're gonna talk. Okay, We're gonna talk about the thin line between loving you and loving me, and specifically what we mean here is the thin line between loving our black men and loving ourselves. Let's go. So, the main thing for me is just the fact that being in relationship with black men is a form of us kind of stepping up and doing our kind of revolution work, and loving black men is part of that. Being able to give a black person love and nurturing is a part of is a revolutionary act. Loving black people, black people loving themselves. However, it's a particular situation for us as black women because we also really put ourselves on the line and make it very difficult to love ourselves in that situation because we find ourselves protecting them because they are at risk, but we put ourselves at risk protecting our men. I think that we've fallen into a terrible trip where we in order like like what you said, like in order to protect them, and we're looking at them as a whole, you know, instead of an individual. This guy, what did we say before uh did me a disservice? Or this? What did we say? Was the line talking about that we were talking about this guy wronged me? Wronged me? Yeah, we didn't need to be specific. When we're looking at black men. We're looking as this gigantic whole. And we don't want to obviously, we don't want to see anybody in prison. We know that these are this is somebody's son. I'm a mother to a son, you know, and AGA's mother to a son as well, and we don't want to be that person that puts another black man behind bars. However, because we don't have street justice like we used to, where you could say to your cousin and them go whoop his motherfucking ass because he did this to me, we don't really have that the way we used to. There used to be a certain level of street justice where you could affect somebody, you know. We had the neighborhood pervert. We lived across the street from Dobbins and will be playing and fiddling with itself. You know when all the girls walk by. You know that was a conversation. You could go to your elders and say, hey, listen, elders. By that, I just mean the grown up men in the neighborhood and say hey, um so and so across the streets acting real crazy. You know. I saw him with his beatings out and he's playing with himself behind the column. When all the girls come outside, and would they will step to him. They would absolutely step to him, and somebody's ass will be whooped. If I see you outside, Hey, I'm watching you, homie. You know what I mean. I don't I don't want to see you talking to nobody. I don't want to see no little girls coming in your house. We're watching you. You know, there was a certain level of of street community justice. We don't really have that anymore, and we're looking as as black women were looking at the hole instead of the individual and that fortunate lot. That has to stop. It just has to stop. You, sir, are accountable for your actions. Your actions. I can't put It's like we've got our minds twisted. Where we put everybody, We're putting all of ourselves in these categories you know, I speak for myself. I speak for a certain you know, amount of black women. I would assume women in general. But at the same time, they have their own voices. They're not me. I am me, So you may agree with me on some things and disagree with me on others. I can't say that I speak for everybody. And I don't think that we as black women have to continue this. I don't think we have to continue this, and I think it's over. I hope that it's all that guy, that guy did me wrong, he wronged me, you understand, Yeah, I mean I think I think in theory it's a situation where yeah, I mean, we definitely shouldn't continue this, But there's so many things that make it complicated. So let's say that guy who did that to you is an important person in the black community, and maybe they've done some really great things. Or let's say that the person who maybe let's say the person didn't wrong you, but they require a high level of emotional labor, and that in labor is associated with his his his his experience with racism. So it's like, I think, sometimes we find ourselves having the same challenges no matter what the scenario. Is because interacting with black men with love it has that extra layer of responsibility for us as black women that then makes are just general existence so that much harder. Yeah, So if I have to expel x amount of emotional labor for you as the one other group of people who cares about you most, right that, then who is doing that for me? And then as black wompen y'all know where we stand in society and with what type of resources we have or lack thereof, So there's no what is that we end up being that for each other? M hm. So I just my thing is that loving black men is a very complicated dance that we are continuing to try to stay up on the beat, but we're we're falling apart. As black women, we are probably just now, in my opinion, having conversations around really preserving ourselves and looking at preserving ourselves as the nation work, whereas not even fifteen years ago we were looking at preserving black men as our nation work. And even still in the social media internet world, you will still hear people say things like black women have more opportunities than black net and black women are doing better than black men are doing. So therefore saying that we didn't have to we deserve less, and that is problematic and not even accurate because that puts a whole another chip on your should as a black woman too, because now it's like, oh, he thinks that too, so now I have to plague him and made him feel It's it's just an interesting cycle. It's it's very challenging. Even when we win, we lose. So how do we approach this idea? Now? How do we get black men to understand that the preservation of the black woman actually right is the nation work we all need to be doing, not just black women. Black women should not be the only people preserving black women. It's hard when we still have to remind people to say black female victims of police vilences and names in the situation is hard. It's like who got us? And we hate to think about it like that because we know the truth. That's like one of those thoughts where you don't want to dive too much into it because it's gonna hurt you. Because you know that I got a few brothers, but I've really got my systems. It hurts, and even think about it, it hurts. This hurts, and and I have to say like, there's some amazing, amazing men that have harmed me, that have wronged me, and I it's very tough because I can't I'm looking at the big picture men that I respect. I'm talking from leaders, Jill. I can only imagine in the in the political arenas, reverence artists that will go on forever. And I've learned now since my last experience year two years ago, I guess it is now since my last experience with a man that was completely inappropriate and just it was astonishing how disrespectful he was, and he tried to make it funny and it wasn't. Um. I've taken now to calling things out immediately, right now, in front of everybody. This is where I am today. The other things that have occurred, I have moved on, and I tread lightly in their area. When I'm around them, I call them as I see them. So every time I see them, I call them what I know them to be. So when I see you know that what's up? Some of them? Yep, Hey, pimping? What's up? Pimping? What's going on? Because I just had this situation not too long ago, I now know that number one, I am going to call it out immediately in front of everybody. I am going to call my brothers. I'm gonna call my good dudes. I'm gonna call my homies and let them know what kind of situation I'm in so they could step to this dude. And if it continues in any way, shape or form, then I have to go further. I have to because I've done all of my due diligence. I've talked to you personally. I'm going to my I guess what you want to call my my bosses or my superiors or you know, executive producers or whatever you have the networks. I've done those things, and and now I got to call my homies. And if you still want to get nasty, you still want to be disrespectful, you still want to act like you don't know how to be professional or respectful, then I have to go further. And what does further mean? That means I have to address it legally because you don't know how to act. That means you have a problem. That means something is wrong with you and you're you're no good in this society, You're no good here. It just felt like we were going into this space and like the protection of black women, which is a very scary conversation for me to have because it really forces you to be open about your experiences. And I was gonna ask you all. For me, it's more about not just those interactions on a one on one with a brother, but then when that happens in front of other brothers that you are friends that love you, because I've been in way too many situations with brothers that we know. I remember I had one dude tell me he was going to smack the sh out of me right and I was in my face backstage of the Electric Factory everybody that's a performance venue in Philadelphia, and I'm like, okay, I want you to do this that I wish that you went. But at the time it was like a lot of people that we know and loved it. And even still when I didn't know if they exactly saw what he said and I brought it back up to these brothers that we know and love, it was like, Wow, you know, he's he's a legend. I really respect. You know. That's the O G. And you know that's the you know and you know, and there's been other situations, even for me being a producer of a night show on a radio show with with men, a hip hop radio show and opening the door for artists and stuff like that, and just not feeling it's just not feeling protected amongst those men. Like Jill, I'm in this in this conversation, I was kind of jealous that you have somebody to call, because, to be honest, I don't know who I have. I can't depend on any more of the men that love me and know me that they would have my back all the time in those situations. It's been too many times when I've improved otherwise. Uh, and here and this is this is where we're at. Is that And I'm glad you brought this upl here because it's not just about the actions of individual black men, it's also about how they are perceived and received by the men around them. Because we talked about the old school justice and it's like, well, how is it can't even be implemented, right, it can't because there's not enough Who is this man that did it? Do I know him? You know it's right? Or you have a situation where it may even come into play where it's like, well, why are you trying to tear a brother down? Girl? He was just playing. But what about he was just playing. If you have a critique of a black man, you are somehow trying to bring him down, talk bad about him, ruin his legacy, all of this kind of craziness. And my thing is this, I would love to have a conversation with black men about Hey, listen, what what critique? What critique can you take? Not that I give a ship, because honestly, I don't know what kind of critique you can or cannot take that program I have scratched my name off. I will speak truth. I will speak truth to power, no matter what color it is. So that's period. I am absolutely clear that my liberation is tied to theirs. So I don't actually love black men when I keep allowing them to be partners in their own bullshit. I'm not doing that. That's not the nation work I'm interested in. So I'm like, I'm cool with that. So either you if you want to call me all type the names, you can call me whatever names you want to. You could say whatever you want about me. But one thing is this, if the comfort, if the comfort I find is only in the experiences and the empathy of my sisters, didn't you just proving me right. Listen, just real quick fast story when I was producing a night show in Philly and my girlfriend was assistant to the head boss and she was the only chick there and all the dudes from the radio station was there. It was late night or whatever. She called me crying, she said, girl, this super popular, gonna be legendary for the rest of his life. Rapper just smacked me on the ass in front of everybody, in front of that coworker, that coworking, that coworking. What what they do, girl, nothing. I'm the one to put my tennis shoes on roll the funk up there, and was like, what we're doing. It's fucking ten niggers in here, and y'all watch this ship happened. You ain't gonna say nothing because he is who he is. I'm sorry. I'm just saying the ship is. It's it's it's so frustrating. It's so frustrating, but I think it's it's one of those who It's like the way that I addressed my son and I'm I am no grown men's mother. I'm just this one boy's mother and a couple of you know, godmother's to other and aunties to others, and I'm just like, you have to be held accountable. You have to apologize, you have to check yourself. You have to acknowledge that you're wrong, that you're wrong. I can move forward from that. I can move forward with you. If you acknowledge that you're wrong and apologize, I'll take a public apology. I'm okay with that. That's cool, you know, I mean, well, the patriarch is strong. It is so at the end of the day, a lot of men are just going on the ways in which they were taught and program and pushed to understand and take a man word over a woman's word to protect the maleness before they protect the woman nous. It's just part of the way that we're all programmed. And really, at the end of the day, who do I always blame? Who fault? Is it the big ws? It's white supremacy at the end of the day, because we are all just imitating the value systems that we get from that. I mean, that's just that's we're inundated with it. So black men, I this is just my opinion, are gonna have to understand the big P word. Black men really need a nice two or three day retreat where they understand what patriarchy is and how they're complicit in it. Black men are gonna have to have that moment where they realize that this is a part of them, of of the attack on them, but that's part of it. And so if they're not willing to have that conversation and really see how those things are mean, it's a language in which will never really speaking the same language. Moono Fresh had had you know, went viral in and of or of it was like a year ago or more where she talked about being a black woman is literally like being a is being black two times, because it's like you're dealing with racism and sexism in the same vein all the time, all of the time. So the conversation with you is unique. You cannot have a conversation about black women and just talk to black men. You can't have a conversation about black women and just talk to white women. You have to talk to black women because our experience is the unique one. It is the one in which you will understand all of them within us. Anna Julia Cooper, I'm a quote hurt, she said, as a black woman, I'm the only person who can walk in the room and bring the entire race with men. You can't to have a discussion about black liberation. And I talked about liberating black women, and you can't talk about liberating black women if you don't hold black men accountable, can't do it, won't happen. That's what we want. I do what I'm scared. I told agent, I'm scared to hold black men accountable in front of company. And I know it's wrong to even say that out loud, but it's something in my mind. I just sometimes I just want us to have meetings ourselves first and get our messaging right, and then we can go out there and you know it supposed toff. I just I want us to get our messaging right. I wanted to get our house clean before we if somebody come in. There's no amount of censorship that's gonna make white people less racis. We can't keep thinking that our sensitivity is going to protect black men from racist white people. It's not. I do think that we should have This is idealistic, but it works in other communities. It works in the Jewish community. It works in areas of the Great Continent where there is a tribunal there are people that you know, it's it's their job. They're although their butchers, and you know some are scientists and some are parents, and some are reverence and you know it's it's not about a religion or one distinct faith. It is about holding ourselves accountable outside of public view. It's about I just But then it's when it's hard, because then we gotta do excuse me for giving my truth. Where when you asked, where you're ask gets tax where it matters. People are are less likely to do things if they, you know, are getting text Like what was that movie that Spike Lee did where they kidnaped black people? He was like the executive producer. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. Like to have a drop in every city, in every town where you're held accountable for your dreams. That's the mean. It's a beautiful dream. That's what I want. I don't want to have to send any black men to to jail. I don't want to be a party of black men not getting an opportunity that his talent deserves. But I don't want you to harm me. I don't want you to wrong me. I don't want you to be disrespectful to me. I don't wish you. I don't want to send nobody to prison. I don't even believe my sisters cutting. I might send your ad that's my ship. I'm like, just start sending to the army. Just whatever in fight for whoever, because now it ain't your choice. You didn't did your crime and you don't want to go to jail. Fight for something, do something with your time. I like the idea of tribunal. I think that that's very African. So I'm with anything that's so it goes there before you even call anybody, let me ask, let me put a monkey, Let me put a monkey wrenching, y'all trop you on a real quack, because how're you gonna have a trap on the right when he's gonna go home and tell his wife all his best man so she don't look like, uh, what you gonna do with the ones that that that, what you're gonna do with them? What you're gonna do with down, what you're gonna do with them? Wife can't be you want to drive be on all ship? What she got to do with I'm just saying that she will be a part of this information that was in the community because we had what do you do with the Van Joneses of the world. Listen, I don't care that part of it is cool with me. I'm like, hey, listen, as long as we get the business hands and alright, as long as the business get handled, all right, come now you can come, but you're gonna have to be quiet. Don't go home and tell your wife. Yes I'm calling names. Yes I'm calling names. I'm just saying, girl, you're not about to give us all the way in trouble. I'm sorry. That's that's all this is. Depinions of like ear are strictly depinions of like eah. But I do have concerns over the I'm only calling out the names of black men who are about the cause but aren't only in the work practices. So I'm just saying that your home situation is different. So my whole thing is like this. I don't care who you're married too, long as you protect black women at all costs. Whoever youre there is. My thing is all tied into how you how you operate. It's an interesting challenge, I feel, But yes, I'm with how do how do we dictate accountability? And I love what we're doing here because we're using our imaginations. Were thinking what is the world we want to build? What does it look like? How does it hold people accountable? We're we're thinking about justice. We're thinking about these things. And to me, this is the work. This is the work, not figuring out how we can so our bodies over top of black men and protect them from racism. Like, no, that's not the work. This this is the work for me. In my opinion, it's gonna be the work for them too. It's gonna be it's gonna be. Yeah, well, I'm open to here all. Maybe we need to do that, y'all? Should we? Should we open up? I don't know. It's just not like a series where we're just talking to black man. Then how how do we move forward from here? We'll be back after the break. I have a friend, it lives in a village in South Africa and he's Zulu, and he always talked about the tribunals, how you have to be accountable to other men and this whole process of Uh, it's kind of like about Mitzvah, you know, but you travel up the mountain and they teach you how to cook and how to fight and how to listen and how to make love to a woman, and how to be a man in a in a lot of ways, I guess every way that that counts, how to cry, how to be okay with that? And and then they cut your foreskin off with a hot rock and then you have to climb down. Yeah yeah, yeah yeah yeah. And by the time and by the time you get down to home, you are now a man. You've gone through the whole process. That was mind blowing that this occurred. There are certain things that that he would call the white man's not predilection. He would call it the white man's perversion. Hm, what what? What? What? What would an example of that? Well, he said that oral sex was a white man on both sides, both will both ways. Yeah. Yeah that that yeah, that that was something that we didn't involve ourselves. And I have no idea because sex has been happening since the beginning of sex. So you know, I don't know, but you know I just heard those things. You know, the city, they was free, they were real free. I did. Something's come on now, I'm like, we just we just got on this joint like twenty years ago. So it's very possible, right right, right? Truth, I Remember when my girlfriends was like, you're doing right. I Remember when a guy would rather, you know, get hit by a car than admit that that's something that he was involved in. Remember that that was that was a real, real thing. Oh and if he's Jamaican, it's still a real thing. But now that yeah, and and and now you know you've got guys online with their their their name is I eat ass. You know, like that's a real thing. Like they're finding freedom in their sexuality. But it's all based on somebody else's idea of what sexuality is. Where is the sensuality? Where is I don't know how we found out about ancient African sexuality. That's interesting. I'm like, was it a thing West African sexual It had to be. It had to be. What on earth would would provoke somebody to cut off a woman's clearterers. There's a lot of power in the orgasm. A true one on earth will possess somebody to do that. You know, I've read the books. It's about taking away all of that that passion, I suppose, But Nasa, no, no way I personally find out. I just feel like when all else fails, I just basically just blame the white man. So I'm gonna I'm laughing because it's it's a really it's a real thing. Yeah, I'm gonna generally go with that, you know what I'm saying. But you know, I would like to you know what, I'm gonna find that out. I'm gonna reach out to some scholars. I'm gonna believe you could find out. Of course she can. That's why she is here around the oral sexuality and and all the sexuality period. We'll find out what is it to have African sex at its core? Like where does that come? What did we found out that African sex is? Like missionary and born? I doubt these things about that the people that derived from rhythm dot but even a missionary, I'm just saying, yeah, you're rhythm matters. I'm just where were we going from what we talk about? You know? Not with ye who you hatten with? Were you hotten with? Come on and speaks us? I mean, you know, Okay, So going back to being the protector, I know that we're the hunters. I don't know that we were meant to be the protectors. I think, like looking back at films like Claudine and how the government got inside of our families and if you needed assistance, you are allowed assistance. But you could not have a man help you do a damn thing. And husbands die and relationships break up, and you know, black woman or is left to try to be, you know, the provider for a family. I just watched the science of it all, the separation of it all, and you know, a lot of people will argue and talk about the Willie Lynch letter. I you know, I'm I'm I'm not a historian, and I can't tell you that that is true or false, but I know that it has some validity. Separate the young from the old, Separate the men from the women, Separate the parents from the children, Separate the men from the women, Separate the light from the dark. These things have worked, They have worked with us, and here we are, all of these years later, and we are struggling to maintain healthy relationships between men and women. And I'm just here. I'm just gonna put it out there and tell you, you know, men, brothers that are listening, you are necessary, you are needed. And I don't know, you know, this whole feminist thing, we're we're so strong that we don't need you it is. It is not the truth. It is not the truth. We have to because we're out here by ourselves. Do we want to know? You are necessary as uncles, as neighbors, as fathers, as grandfathers, as brothers, as lovers, as husbands, as you are necessary and and anything else is just not the truth. It is not. I can't tell you enough how valid and how important you are. I cannot tell you enough. So we need you to speak up on our behalf. We need you to. I don't care if you have to pull somebody aside. I don't I don't know how you deal with things necessarily, But the attacks on us for you to sit quiet, or for you to enjoy them as as entertainment, for you to chime in and say, yeah, that's how those black bitches are or whatever that is like, it needs to cease and desist. Then you need to stop that. You're only hurting yourself. You're only hurting yourself. You're only hurting yourself. You have to start being mindful who you stick your roots into. You have to picking up and and just being with any your body because she got a fat ass is just stupid. It's it's dumb. And then of course, that one thing to get something else. Now you're in a situation where you're in some on a you know, legal fight, whether it is to see your child or to not see your child. How much money you pay a month for a child you don't spend time with, and all of this stuff. It leads us down a terrible slope of broken families, of of heartaches that only be goat heart aches. You have to wake up now, and we have to wake up too. We have to be accountable for one another. You cannot just keep ignoring are hurts. You're supposed to protect us, You're supposed to be our protector. Where are you supposed to love us as much as we love you? At the very least? Can you just love us as much as we love you? Because I fucking love black men? Can I just hear you explain it? Can I just can't see it? Can see it? I mean, I think snap snaps for all of this, because I do. But again, I feel like we have shown own our love and our appreciation for black men so much. You know, I don't feel like this is something that is lacking. And I know you were saying this, but in terms of just like feminism or womanism or anything or any of that. There's no premise of that that is about disliking or discredit and black men, and I think they have to kind of get that part out of their minds also, where it's like, this is just about understanding and valuing that person who is devalued, and that's very important that we continue to look at ourselves as a family and realize there are people in this family who are most vulnerable and addressing those that are most vulnerable. I wrote this thing one time about my mom how we were gonna go to this amusement park. And my mother was visiting and she wanted to go, but she at the time her mobility wasn't such that she could and she thought she wouldn't be able to go to this amusement party. And I told her, I said, well, you know a lot of times amusement parts are you know, handicap accessible. So I was like, why don't we just go see? I said, you know what, I will just bring a wheelchair, so I had one at the house. We bring the wheelchair. I know that this is going to be a little bit more effort on my part and the kids part, but I'm like she deserves to have a good time. So I take her and we go. When we get there, they have these scooters, right, so we're excited, like, oh boom, we'll win a scooter. We rent the scooter and everything, and when she gets the scooter, she also gets a wrist band. It's a wrist band that gives her the opportunity to skip the line. Right, So because she's with us, she skips the line. But because we're with her, we get to skip the line too. So the whole day, we never had the stand in line for one ride. We wrote all the rides like two or three different times. She had a ball. And the reason why I'm telling that story is because if you focus your energy on the person in the group who's the most vulnerable, everybody wins. Everybody gets to ride the ride three times. Wow damn. So I just need men and everybody to understand who's the most vulnerable. It's not a competition, it's just about realness. Let's be real and let's look out for each other. That's that's the point, you know what I mean? Because you to be black, to be black, and woman, to be black and disabled, to be black and queer, to be black, queer, and disabled. It's all layers of vulnerability. And our job always is to pick who's the most vulnerable and center the entire nation work around them. That's a powerful community them as black women, we are able to somehow, some way, we are we are something else. Us not having food, we're going through a time. And I watched my grandmother throw together stuff like rice and tuna dish and make some kind of castle role, you know, and make that thing stretch. I watched my mother make potatoes. We had potatoes soup lade. We had potatoes soup. We had potato cakes. We had potato. We have French fries, we have potato. We have potato. We had potatoes because that's what we had. And yump, our wrists swelled up, the guard, our ankles swelled up. We didn't have proper nutrition, but we stayed alive until that next neighbor showed up and and gave us a can of something, or you know that family members stopped by with groceries to get us through the next week or so. And I look at that and I see that kind of resilience. We are very resilient, but we are also exhausted. So tired. We're so exhausted, so tired. But you know what, though it's interesting, you know that connection between us and black men, it is such a magical thing, not even always in the romantic part of it. It is just that rhythm and the way we are connected, that that need to protect and be there. I don't want that to go away in myself, you know what I'm saying. I just don't want to share it with myself. And I think I'm so excited about how we connect with each other because when we start risking, it's everything. And when we start communicating and we share the same language, that's the thing is that that's what they try to take from us, things like our words and our language, and so being on the same page and speaking the same language with each other is so essential. And when we are, when we're linked up, when black women and black men are linked up and they're in sync with one another, is a power like none of other. You know that feeling when you're in a room full of black men and everybody you can feel that they respect you, Yes, you can feel it. It is such it's it's like my my ideas are out of control because I know I'm supported. I'm held up in this room. It's liberating and it's the way that my mind processes. You know. I don't feel like I have to defend myself here. I feel I am safe here and I can speak up and be free to come up with something amazing that can be added to, can be pulled apart in a way that is respectful. Oh that's my favorite kind of days. When I'm surrounded by black men that respect and loved me. I look forward to. It's so nice. Because I was sitting here, I was like, yeah, I thought you was gonna say. I was thinking the flip side is living out here in California. Do y'all know that that feeling that you feel, Jill, when you I feel that way when I'm walking down the street in l A and a black man actually looks in my direction and acknowledges me and we have a head not moment, because it's so rare that when it happens, You're like, you see me, Thank you, brother, thank you. And I just got to you too because that because that brother always gets seen in l A. Don't forget I'm in California. These women love them, you know. But for him to see me, but him to see me in this town, He'll be like, Okay, it's gonna be all right. It's so sad. But I literally every time it happens, I have that moment of life, I'm okay here, I'm okay mm hmm. The safety of it all is the reason why we do all of this work and so that we create these kind of safe spaces for ourselves. That moment that you feel, we dry to take that moment and multiply it, you know what I'm saying, And yeah, all these moments so that we're consistently feeling that feeling. Something really interesting happened to me recently where for ten I were working on another project and we were doing like some interviews with people and we asked them, you know, when did they first or ever learned like about black life right and like in school, and most people could not recall when that was or if they did, it was like something really basic. And then I'll fast forward to I was interacting with a bunch of freshman at Howard and they were all taking like an Africana studies class, like intro to Africana Studies, and a lot of them were saying the same thing they were like, this is my first time being in the room full of black people talking about black lives and like their freshman in college. It's important for us to continue to acknowledge that that moment that we're that we're kind of sitting here thinking about and lamenting over, is a moment that we are often trying to experience, but is a lot harder to experience. Then we would like it to be us, not a thing that we can always access, you know what I mean, And that that part of it, rather than making it make me sad, it motivates me. I feel motivated. I want more spaces where I feel safe around black men in groups and I'm not contemplating my safety emotional or physical. And I think that's really a super important thing for us to do, is to use that as a litmus. These moments are the moments we're looking for. You know, I want to shout out DJ Premier. Yeah, huh, Yeah, that's a good dude. Yes he's also a girl dad. Yes he's a good dude, and I love being in his company with the crew of men that he has around him. I appreciate and honor these moments, the moments that I had with the producers from a touch of Jazz. I loved being around that group of guys. I felt like I felt like a sister. I felt like uh auntie, I felt like a niece. I felt like a woman, and I felt like a woman that was cherished. And those are are great memories to have. And I love black men, not just out of some mythical, you know, idea of who they are. I have seen you at your absolute best, and I love you. And when I see that, and I've seen you love a woman, a black woman beautifully. Yeah, I just I want you to know that I've seen you, and that who you are and what you are, I wish and pray for it for every single one of you. It's it's a beautiful healthiness. It's a beautiful wholeness, and you deserve it. You deserve it. I want you to like he shout out my husband, who was an amazing black man. Yes he is. It's always in the background right now. He like, I'm trying to put up my goddamn dorby what I'm saying. I'm fighting, but upper door beads, come on and I'll do what you shot him out because he's a he's a lovely, lovely man, and and I've seen him, and I know his personal history, and so I do also know that a person can struggle in the way of being a black man, the world that he comes into and the circumstances that the world will put in his lap, and he can still be engaged and and and love dearly and deeply and outwardly and really test the limits of the things that he may not know naturally, that that that that the environment does that he can say, you don't forget that. I didn't have to. Fine, I know that happened to me, and that's legit. But my humanity is more important. Come on, A woman se entity is more important. My children's humanity is more important. And I want that for them to be humans, you know. And I just have to give him that. He has always had a sense of that always, y'all, m what's wrong? It's butterflies all over my windows? What you mean? Butterflies all over your windows? It's butterflies, not the cadus. They're butterflies on my windows and slightly creepy, but it really is. I'm like, I don't believe you. My daddy was just talking, yo. Can I just tell you. I'm sorry, I mean to interrupt you, Asia, But on the sense of butterflies, that's the person I was gonna shout out with my father in that sense, the man who taught me joy and what a black man should be. But he just had a conversation with me today about how he was whistled his window and the black butterfly came over and the black butterfly was just dancing and he just kept on whispering and whistling, and the black butterfly just kept on dancing. And that was the is that's that's crazy that you had that happened to you, and I'm not, well, yeah, bro, those are spirits, high spirits. Yeah, that's what that is. That's literally what that is. But thank you Daddy too in that way showing me that all that being a black man is limitless, limitless, especially emotionally. Also will shout my dad. I'm gonna shout my dad. My father has been passed away now for six years, and I want to shout my father because my father was a black man who had a hard time getting it right. I want to acknowledge him because he fell victim to a lot of the traps and a lot of the systems that are put out there to hurt him, and he actually did fall in. But my dad had so much beauty in him that one of the things he was able to do for me as his daughter was to show me how it looked to be adored. My dad adored me, It really did. I appreciate that, you know, because those are my memories. Those are my memories are my dad being funny and being adventurous and silly and goofy and not being afraid of how other people would view him. My dad run and joke and just be the most fun person, and I love that about him. Those are the ways he held onto his humanity despite you know, his mistakes are the things that he allowed, the mistakes that he made, and the things that you know he felt victim too. So I just want the brothers to know you don't have to be perfect. I don't have to be perfect. This is not about perfection. This is about reclaiming your humanity and reclaiming hours. This is really what it is about. I'll work, I'll work with each other. I have a line where I say, uh, it's become a mantra for me. A little emotional about these butterflies. But I might have a mantra, right, so you can um. If you can't tell me what to do, then you can't tell me what to do. But if you can tell me what to do, then you can tell me what to do. Yes, yes, yes, that's the goal. That's the goal. And I don't right. And I have no issue with being respectful or even submissive to to the right person. I used to say all the time, Jill, Yes I'm I'm not Yes, I'm not a submissive person, but I am ready to submit to the right man. Yes, I know that I can do that. And it it's not so much when I see chinks in your armor that I'm like, Okay, I can't submit to you. It's all about character. And that's the one thing that I've definitely learned in this lifetime to take my sweet molasses ass time before I stick my roots into another sum by them down the day. This day I used to think in term of submission. I knew, I knew Asia. I was just about to say to you, Jail, and Asia is going to say, and Asia is also MUSLIMA still that doesn't have anything to do. No, I'm ready have that. I used to think in terms of that. It's not that it doesn't have a place in life. You know what I mean, don't word I submit? It has its place ultimately and how we submit to the power of God. So there is submission has its place of life, which is important in in partnering theat and I talked about this reasonably when we talked about roles, and we talked about all the different things that we thought when we first got married, and how so much gets lost when you think in terms of submission to each other. I think a lot of times it's just more about compassion, empathy, and respect, because those things they just outlast submission, all of that. And I feel like in my life, I've come to have a deep compassion for my man because that is the thing that I was not taught. I've been taught to submit since I was little. That's what women are always taught. Whether it's directly or indirectly. It's my compassion for him that I feel like it's most useful for him. What is useful, say, to gain compassion, empathy and respect, respect. I just feel like my compassion for him is useful for him because it just as we're taught one thing they're taught something. Also, they carry a heavy weight on the leader and that I gotta know how to fix everything in And they don't be freaking knowing. They be confused and have anxiety and be fearful and scared as you are so right, because they're humans. Because yeah, and if we continue to attach submission to them, that's how we talk about God, then we put a pressure on our men to be all knowing. So I think the word has been kind of remix It's fair, but I think that the word is kind of remixed to when people say it now, I think it's a little looser than what we thought. I mean, I feel like sometimes submission when certain women say, especially those too perceived strong or kind of saying in the sense of I'm just ready to hand over the reins a little bit like while I have them, I tell you looking forward to But see that has a lot to do with trust. Yeah, ending over reins is about trusting that that person can handle that. Yeah, And that's the the goal. You want to find a person in your life that you trust enough that you feel like you can hand at least give him one of these rains so you can put your shoulders down a little. And that's what I'm talking about. And that's what I think when we say submission, that's what we're talking about. I'm not talking about walking behind somebody with my head. Yeah you know where I didn't think that, Aga, Aga, you have just blessed my whole life right there. Compassion, empathy, respect, and trust. Oh thank you girl, thank you, thank you, thank you. That's a third. That's a third. That was an immense sert. Remember those are your CERTs. Compassion, empathy, respect, and tru trust assert Remember the third. I love it. We'll be back after the break. Coming up next on the show, What's on Your Heart an occasional segment where we're check in with people we respect about how they're really feeling hot on y'all. I think there's somebody calling. That must mean it's time for Whatso we have someone on the phone. Let's see who it is. Caregames O man, Hello, Hello, Hello, God. Friend's going on a little bit of everything, a whole lot of nothing. How are you doing? I'm doing fantastic. I discovered care gains nobody else it was just me And how did you do that? I happened to be scrolling through the Instagram, and I saw this video of this young man holding his daughter speaking, I mean truly speaking to the hearts of mine a young men about what it means to be a parent, what it means to be a black man as a parent. And I was so impressed. I thought, man, he really just laid it all out there like it needs to be, because you know, so many of us were sticking out roots in the wrong people. So I retweeted or reposted, yeah, Podus posted. I reposted, that's how bad it is. I still call it the interweb. You can't be that bad what you call it? Innerwere though I can. I can do what I want. But I reposted him and I saw the response. Yes, And what was the response care Oh my gosh, overwhelming to say the very least. I don't know. It's like I told you when you first reached out to me, like I'm just a person who believes that they're just speaking to things that are on their mind. And for me to be in this body and have this face and have this voice and had this accent and have this background and have people listening to my heart, genuinely, it's the wildest thing I've ever been throwing my life. I love it, but I'd be lying to you if I told you I knew exactly how to accept it. But coming from your mouth and you're telling me that you love of what I'm saying, that's just I don't know. It feels strange and familiar if it was alien in at home, all in one feels swoop, if that makes any sense. This is why I with care. This is why I do our first conversation, I just called him on a humbug, like what's up, And it was a great conversation that just continued to flow. I'm geeked about seeing young black men that know what love is and express it in this way and are willing to share their thoughts and ideas and successes and failures. That's fantastic. And a woman still be black. Yes, I mean listen to that. I got to tell you, don't lose the feeling. Yeah, Care, we got a question for you. What's up? That's what I'm here for. I want all the questions. What's on your heart? Oh man? My therapist asked me that a few days ago. It's a theory. Yeah, my dad was actually a black woman. She is outstanding and she's very steep to spirituality. She's very blunt. She she I feel like she understands me on the multitude of levels, which which helps. But what's on my heart conflict right now, let's go and you know that's a million different avenues that can take conflict, right it's just internal conflict. I'm battling right now. I'm talking to my wife this morning and we're just talking about like how everything is kind of happening in our life is kind of becoming a brand now, which I don't mind because people get something positive from it. But like my very real stuff, I deal with anxiety, and that's something I've never really shared publicly. My anxiety was so bad at one time that I went to the doctor and they have to do a general anxiety tests. It's like I'm skilled of zero to tend how bad as James siety and my range mine hits so high that they wanted me to be prescribed medication. That ain't the route I really wanted to go. I feel like that's effective for people, and if it is, that, you know by all means to do that, but I just felt like my route needed to be a little different, so I didn't take that. But just battling with anxiety, and battling with anxiety, and then going through like grad school and learning to become a therapist and battling anxiety. And now what's on my heart is a conflict between knowing better. You know. I did a podcast the other day where I was telling the host, you know, one of the ways you deal with anxiety is to figure out what kind of relationship that you have with it. How do you greet it? Do you agree to with hate? Do you greet it with disgust? Are you very hard on yourself because you hate anxiety and you let it anchor you down? Sometimes? And I told her that the relationship she has with her anxiety is really gonna dictate how it bends her life and how she moves around it. And here I am can't fall my own advice, and my heart is conflicted because I know better, but I still can't get it off for me. I can't get it off me, not as much as I would like to. My therapist brain tells me that I can't do everything. You can't be all the eggs in all the spaces in the whole carton. That's not how people work. But like my person brain is like, damn, look at this big bright bur in the spot where I fail that. You know, it's sometimes it feels like y'a heart. It's like a report car with the f s were a little bit more than the a's. You know, you have a four point o, you get one F. Your GP is abysmal. You get all as you get one A. And it's hard for the mover a tick and my therapist brain comes back and says that I should reframe that, I should look at that positively, like, no, but you have the winds. You're just not getting all the nutrients oude of your joys. And my real brain it's like, yeah, but that ship ah. And sometimes I wake up and I don't want to be a husband or father or social media or whatever the fuck come on, I'm just conflicted. And then it's like, damn, my god, an opportunity completely changed my life. I just speak to people what's on my heart? And now we have movie producers and television producers and all types of people who receive high acclaim reaching out to us. What's on your brain? What do you think? Who wouldn't be blessed to do this? But it don't feel the way I thought it would. It's still a gap between what I thought, like, Oh, I feel complete, Like No, it feels like the anxiety still tugs at that. So now I'm in a place where I'm trying to figure out what the hell is happiness? Man, Like you think when you When I was younger, I thought it was the women. Then you realize it's not the Women's the money. Then you realize it's not the money, it's the time. They like damn, it ain't even a time no more. It's always a place of need of My anxiety won't let me just be happy in that one space funny, and that pisces me off because I just want to be unapologetically. I don't give a damningly joyful all the time. I want my cheeks to hurt from smiling all the time. It just real lit. It is Give it to me, man, Give it to man. It is realistic. It's just an effort. This is why I love care. I mean, I don't use the word so lightly, but I do. I appreciate you, and I love who you are, young man. I'm so proud of you, really, yeah, because you're able to say the things that we all feel and Unfortunately, black men don't have the voice. I won't say they don't have the opportunity, but maybe that too. They don't have the voice to to be transparent, to say I'm scared, or I'm angry, or I'm anxious or you know, all of these things that happen to every human being. But you can have happiness. You're just gonna have to fight. You're going to have to fight for it. Yep. What does that mean? Means that you're going to have to guard who you have around you and your family. That the people that are around you need to be really positive and uplifting, and when they're not, they need to excuse themselves gracefully or you need to excuse them gracefully. The only reason I know this is because I've been working and trying my best to find and stay on on a cloud. That's what I want. That's all y'all want, you know, to live that cloud. Yeah, man, it's so so smell good and just want more time on it. You're going to have to learn how to say no to some things if you haven't already. You can't do everything because you need to rest and because you need to hang out with your wife and you need to to make sure you're spending time with your daughter and need to make sure like we talked about you and I having time for yourself. Yes, I agree. I think if a lot of it is in time management, Like Okay, I did a lot today. I'm gonna take a walk and then I'm gonna make sandwich, and then I'm going to take a bath, and you know what i mean, just finding the ways that make you relax, and then constantly, no matter what's going on, finding the things to be grateful about, over and over and over again. I'm so grateful for that sandwich I just have. I know I've been saying sandwich a lot, but I've been eating a sandwich. We've been doing this podcast. Yes, and the sweet love brought it to me. That's what made it all the better, you know. Yeah, what I'm saying, yeah, just keep finding whatever. I'm so grateful for these shoes, you know, on your piece, to find your piece, whether that be prayer or whatever. But that's also a factor. Yeah, definitely. I mean, listen, I'm over here with my mind. My mind is blown. First of all, I want to say this, I don't care what you'll say. I posted that video off you and your daughter before she was on before she before she was she right, she right, she right, she right. Don't care. But also let me just say this. Listen. You know, yeah, you can take time to yourself, but if you don't know who you are, if you don't know what you really love outside of the things that you spoke on this yourself, you know, either the things that constitute your roles, then you have time blone doing things and wondering what else you could be doing right now, because that's part of it. That's what I'm working on, to be cent of yourself because not for nothing, Asian I ain't there yet, like I feel him in a way because I'm like, I'm not who I am and what I'm doing here, so that if I don't know, if it's about being a hundred percent, I'm just asking yourself those questions because I think sometimes particularly with our men, they don't get to ask anything. It's all subject to change. Yeah, everything is a subject to change, so there, but they don't get to just pose the question. You know, and posing that question and consistently can can give you at least some space to say, you know, on today, in this moment, I had to learn. And first I thought, hey, asked the question once a week. Now I'm to asking myself that question several times, whereas I wouldn't where I would think, Oh, I gotta make this time to talk to me, you know, and I talked to me all day. I had to walk myself. I told my neighbor the other day, she said, Joe mentioned taking a walk. But I think for me it was more than the walk. It was me saying in this moment right now, who I am is a woman who don't need to be interacting with nobody right now m hm. And the only place I could go to not in correct, was to take a walk. So it was that Asia. Asia has been married to her husband for tea for how many years? Nothing consistently for twenty two years. They don't evolve, eating a breather, and they have six children, Oh sweet God. Together a black family, oh, y'all, a family fans nothing to miss it that they worked together as d and the family soul's super talented couple. Okay, just for two or two together. I know exactly who you are, yo, y'all. A goals man. And I never say that. I never say that because I feel like that's some like surface level type, but like y'all a goals, y'all goals, y'all are goals. That's what's up. I can't do six though I listen. Listen, my brother, don't do it to your brother and your sister. Don't do it, my man, don't do it. I will say this. I'm gonna say this to you though. You've been a gift to us too, because I sent that the video you just recently did to my husbands. I'm in the middle of writing a project and I wrote an entire essay about some feelings that I had about him in light of that as well. But I want to say this to you. You dropped the gym today, even in your anguish. So that's that's your genius really in so many ways, is that your honesty and transparency opens up a space for all of us to find ourselves. So you said you weren't getting enough nutrients out of your joys. Yeah, yeah, that right there, not enough nutrients out of my joy or even that it has a nutrient, Yeah that that you can even Yeah, what works for me? Because I think I think when it comes to joy and finding it, it really is individual I try to think about what my nine year old self really like doing. And I really like riding my bike with my basket, and I like going around the block and humming my little songs. I really love that. And I tried my best, Like for the Tyler Perry party, that big Tyler Perry revealing of his new studio, I was nervous. It was so many people and it was such a big deal, and I was scared. And then I wear the right thing, or they're gonna ask me questions. Fuck fuck fuck fu fu funck all of that. And instead I decided that I was gonna be nine on the bike and I rode around and all my all my legs, and I looked at everything that was happening, and I was like, and I had a wonderful time because I didn't feed into what I was supposed to be doing or what I was supposed to be feeling. Like. I decided I was just gonna enjoy this thing and look at everything, and I want to taste that, and I want to say hi to this guy high and I'm gonna go over here. It doesn't matter to me what you think. It doesn't matter to me what you think I'm here for a reason. I know that because I'm here, and that's it. How did you get there? How did you get there twenty years? That's how it is? Something to time a little bit. Sorry, yep, I think that's such an important part of it. It's like when you see these weightloss videos and you just see her with the after and the coke bottle and then before she got on like the big MoU MoU, and you know that's and it's to be like, look, I lost eighty pails in three weeks, right, cool? But how how is the hard part? And they do that? How is what your experiencing, what you're doing? How is And honestly, I mean, let's just keep it one hundred these kinds of the thoughts publicly for black men and for black women to witness, it is elevating the conversation, is helping other people to get there quicker. So in the time that it takes you, you know that that the time aspect is really just about the patience and the forgiveness in the in the compassion and empathy that you must exhibit for yourself. You know what I mean. I think a lot of times we find compassion and easy thing to give other people, but we don't find it an easy thing to give ourselves. The time allows you to be compassionate and giving you that perspective, you know what I'm saying, and accepting that when people say something to you, when they say, hey, man, you help me get there, that's a real thing, right, That's a real thing that you can own, and you can own that, you can own that as a as a part of your your journey and your vessel. It's like, yeah, I did I helped someone, and that I'm not a phone you or fake because it's taking me longer to get there. I helped you get there. I was busy helping you. You're talking on some stuff now, yeah, because that's the thing I was. I was busy putting my stuff out into the universe and being the vessel, you know what I mean. Because sometimes that can be heavy too. I know, Asia Infatine carry that weight a lot of times with even the perception of what their life is and who they are. But I feel like the more that you pass on your word and the more that you you get people to open up like you, the less heavy that gets. Right because the way it's being distributed now because it's not just me. You know, if you would have told me that about a year ago, I didn't have the faith in people that I have now. After like this whole social media explosion, I get a lot of dams. I can't even get through them all. Man, my cousin, we were deleting them for three hours and it's still said nine hundred ninety nine, which is as high as it counts. They weren't moving. There's probably tens of thousands of them in there. But some people really just speak about their lives and where they are, and maybe something I said sparked or kindle them to have some sort of either transformative change or the first step toward it, or something that is on their radar that they've never thought about before. And it's like when you create music or any other art, you'll spend twenty five minutes, you you're spend three days working on a song. You're like, this is my baby, this is my passion, and you release it. But this is the song that you kind of like, you're not kind of like this, let me put it out here, and everyone's like, oh my god, that's the greatest thing you ever wrote. And I feel like that with the thoughts. So it's easy to discount it when people say, oh man, it's really changed the way I think. But I'm really starting to sit in it and really lies how big that is. If someone can have a shift in thinking to take that back to their family. How must you're introducing joy into other people's lives and they didn't even understand the concept. That's wild to me. I mean, I'm very thankful that I can do that. I'm really thankful. I'm really, really really thankful because you can't put a value on that, especially now where and you don't have all the answers to own that piece, right, So you don't have to have all that Like I don't have to have a perfect marriage to celebrate love, to celebrate family. I don't have to have a perfect relationship to know that my man is so beautiful, you know what I mean. And he got hell of flaws, you know what I'm saying. But I don't have to all those things that we allow white supremacy to tell us that our excellence has to be paired with perfection, and that is not the truth. Black people are excellent in the mundane. So at that part of it, it's that you don't have to live up to any expectation of perfection, and specifically in your own mind, because it's your mind is the one that you are tussling with, not tussling with anyone else. You're tussling with you. And that tussling with you. Oh yeah, baby, that's that, Like, that's the one that ain't going away. That's that tussle that's gonna be there. You get, we get a little we're getting a little closer. Yeah, taking your advice. You said it, you said, man, it's the relationship you have with the anxiety, you know, And some days it's gonna be a tussle. Some days you're all gonna be cuddled. Some days you're gonna be like, hey man, what's up. And some days you'll be like, nigga, get the hell out of my face. And you got to be okay with that. You got to be okay with it that, you got to be okay with that, and that that goes back to I think the Bailey Wick of everything we've been talking about, and that's like expectations, managing your expects sations and knowing where you are. I met this Tyler Perry party. I don't feel comfortable. I'm going to okay, what do I want? I want to feel comfortable. I'm gonna be my nine ye oe, so for my motherfucking bite and I'm a smile and I'm gonna be okay, And I think what all of us need to hear. Sometimes it even takes your Scott twenty years to get there. You know, we need to hear that part. We need to hear, Like I can take these pictures with my wife. It was funny. We had I thought a surprise like drive by birthday celebration and we recorded it and we were beefing at the time. We weren't even speaking like we we were. We we were just in that. You know, you hit those places in your marriage where I love you, but I don't like you, and I don't want to talk to you right now unless I have to. But I'm gonna throw you this goddamn perfect and you're gonna like it. But that's what it is. And that's the complexity of being human. That's the complexity of being human with another a human, being human with yourself, realizing that you're more human than you thought you were originally. Care I want you to think really, really big Okay, I just want you to think really really dumb, big huge, bigger than huge. Jackian take enormous, right, Because we talked about this before. We haven't really been living. We've been surviving. So to teach people how to just be human. Ain't that some ship that we got to learn how to be human? That we've been lost? But I don't know that we ever had as a people. We've been surviving and struggling and making do and catching thing, catching up, but not exactly living. So you're doing it and it looks good on you and am very very happy for your young man. And if you need us, man Jay dot Ill the podcast how I had us, I know it's true. Hey, it's me Eves, a producer on the podcast, showing up again to offer you resources related to this episode. This time, Asia wants you to know about the Philly based organization Black Men Healed. Therapy is still, after all these years of struggling in silence, something that many of us black folks don't want to touch or even consider. But as you can tell, that's not what we're about here on this show. Agia believes helping black men deal with trauma is at the heart of strengthening their relationship with black women. Black Men Heal's mission is to quote provide access to men, total health treatment, psycho education, and community resources to men of color. They offer free therapy services and aim to help remove the stigma around black men talking about and caring for their mental health. Of course, black people of any gender can benefit from therapy, but it's a particularly taboo subject for black men, and we want to dismantle that mindset. So yes, even if you can't access Black Men Heal, a mental health professional is likely within reach. As always, I'll drop a link to the organization's website in the episode description. Thank you for listening to Jill Scott Presents j dot Ill the Podcast. This podcast is hosted by Jill Scott, Laya st Clair, and Age Graden Danceller. It's executive producers are Jill Scott, Shawn Ji and Brian Calhoun. It's produced by Laya st Clair and me He's Jeff Coke. The editing and sound design for this episode we're done by Christina Loranger. Listen when Jill Scott calls you randomly at like eight thirty, because you know she don't know she Jail Scott. You know you know she don't get it, like no, no, right, but yes you say she don't get it and I love that about it. J dot Ill is a production of I heart Radio. For more podcasts from I heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.