Rae White - How Poetry and Queer Storytelling Are Changing Australia’s Literary Scene

0:03 The medium is the message and the message is welcome to I think therefore I Slam, the podcast bringing you the best slam poetry and spoken word artist from Australia and beyond. My name is Andrew and my guest today comes highly recommended by former guest Shastra Deo. My guest today is a non binary transgender writer, educator and Zine maker. Their poetry collection Milk Teeth won the 27th Arts Queensland Thomas Shapcott Poetry Prize and their second poetry collection, Exactly as I Am, was shortlisted for the 2023 Prime Ministers Literary Awards and the 2023 Judith Wright Calanthi Award in the QLD Literary Awards. This year they've branched out into the world of children's picture books with their debut title All the Colours of the Rainbow.

0:52 Their poetry has been published in Australian poetry Journal, Kodak Poetry Review, The Engine Quarterly, Overland Rabbits and many others. They're also the creative director and founder of the community poetry initiative Uplift Poetry, and the founding editor of Hashtag NB Life, a journal for non binary and gender diverse creatives. They have a name that phonetically often strikes fear into the hearts of us renters. But today, I'm glad to say it's sparks joy for us all. Please welcome Ray What? Hello. Thank you so much for having me now, Ray. I'm a good real estate joke. Yeah. Ray it's, it's it's kind of been a crazy kind of time up your way up north.

1:37 I know that, you know, your community has very much been been recovering from the cyclones earlier this year. How? How are things looking when you open your front door and walk around? Looked pretty good to be honest. We had a the like the park and community garden down the road from us was a little bit flooded. But you know, things are things are looking good. So at least around my area, I think there's a lot of people still still recovering though. Yeah. But yeah, looking looking pretty good. Things are looking up. Things are looking up. No one. Yeah, yeah. No one got the horrors of the world. I'll just not think about them today. Yeah, no one got swept away to Land of Oz. We're we're all good. Here's a question. Do do little, do local communities up north, do they make Spoon villages, Little Spoonvilles? Do you know what I'm talking about? Spoon Villages.

2:26 So it's where if people have a spare like cooking wooden spoon, they will like plant it in a particular place and kids will draw faces on it, put little decorations on it and it's like a spoon village. Is that just a Melbourne thing? I think it might be just because we have like a in the community garden. There's like this cute little fairy cottage and like little fairy garden and stuff and like, it's, it's all like kind of in this like tree nook and it's like left there for, you know, for, for fairies and stuff. Yeah, but we don't have any spoons. OK, No, I don't, I've never heard of that before. But I am, I am going to now next month. So maybe I'll have a look out for them.

3:07 Yeah, I mean again, maybe it's. A Melbourne. Southeast suburbs kind of thing that they, they pop up, you know, whenever. Is there a reason for it or just? Oh, I, I just think it's kind of cool. You might see some outside primary schools too. And I'm wondering like how how they would go in in a natural disaster, like would Spoonbill survive a a flood or a cyclone or a fire? Yeah, I mean, it's like, I'm not an environmental expert, but I reckon. Or a spoon. Or I'm also not a spoon. Yeah, I think they might not do too badly. That's really interesting. And also I'm just, I'm just like picturing these spoons just all hanging out and then, like, I mean, I guess like, if they became sentient, they'd maybe be able to have a bit of a swim.

3:56 Yeah. Be OK. Yeah, who knows what they're doing when when no one's watching, you know, just just traveling along. Oh, yeah. Very Toy Story. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh. Yeah, forky trash. Amazing. Well, you know what isn't trash? Here's a segue for you, the poetry of Ray White. And Ray, you've brought a couple of your finest pieces for us today. I think we'll dive into your first piece. Amazing. I almost forgot this was part of the The Geek today, so I'm glad I did prepare earlier. Yeah. So I'm going to read mostly poems from my latest collection, exactly as I am, and this one is one of my favourites. It's called Rainbow Confetti Pixels and I guess a content warning for sort of mentions of transphobia. But at the end of the day, it's a it's a very, both very sarcastic and a very positive poem. So this is Rainbow Confetti.

4:55 Pixels coming out as a non binary is like yelling into a void, but the void has disappeared and being replaced by change rooms and target. And they're not even echoey enough to surround sound your voice so you can yell. Wait I'm neither of these mate. Instead they're just small stalls getting smaller and smaller and playing the same 80s and 90s. Hits on repeat every damn time. You're ushered and tense. Rinse repeat. You could rebel, but you don't. You enter the change room but it's actually a toilet cubicle because at the end of the day being trans is all about fucking lose, am I right?

5:41 Coming out as non binary is staring big eyed at the toilet who's flapping their lid saying feed me. Kind of like that 80s show the trapdoor. Because all trans kids grew up in the late 80s and early 90s and never aged and none of them can be any older or younger than me because it's all just a fad like butterfly clips and tamagotchis, am I right? But they're back Tamagotchis. You can feed them and clean their poop just like you could back in the day. Because back in my day I was still searching the mobile library bookshelves for books and words that described who I was.

6:21 Because coming out as non binary is a whole God damn lifelong process. Like Step 1. Brush the poop of your binary existence out the door with a pixelated broom. Step 2. Replace the poop with butterfly clips of all different colours mirroring your bedrooms purposefully rainbowed bookshelf. Step 3. Scatter hundreds and thousands like rainbow confetti pixels in the air. Step 4. Yell just fuck off mate to the demanding toilet binarists and their trans trender theories. Because today's trans trend is not feeding the trapdoor all those monsters.

7:05 Today's trans trend is feeding yourself love and goodness. Today's trans trend is believing you are non binary enough. No matter what the monsters say. Today's trans truth is that we've always been here. Hundreds and thousands of years of us existing and echoing in surround sound, pixel filled skies, writing our words and stories into the historic void, coming out on repeat. Rinse, repeat, rebel, repeat. Every damn time. But never ever disappearing. Thank you. Shirk feed me.

7:49 Oh, I'm so I I'm glad someone got the reference. Very good, very good. Oh yeah, no. Great show. The trapdoor and, and it, it was cool. Like I think as a as a kid, we're kind of drawn to things that are a little bit creepy. And I think the creepiest part of it was at the end of the the credits where you'd hear that voice go, but you remember that. Yeah, and I think like I, it's one of those things where I think I was like, I was drawn to a lot of creepy things, especially because like so often like trans, you know, transness or like, you know, gender difference is like seen as as monstrous and creepy and other. And so it was kind of that, yeah, melding of those two things.

8:32 So. There might have even been an EP where Burke actually went in the trap door and then to like save his friend or something. And and then it kind of had one of, I don't know, I feel like it ended. Maybe that was the final episode. Maybe it ended like, you know, Blackadder Goes Forth where it was like really onions or something. I don't know. Oh yeah, Got maybe. Yeah, I was like, that was another another show that I like the comparison between Trapdoor and Blackadder. Oh yeah, yeah. But I do feel like a lot of shows, like, you know, there's that thing of like, how how do we end this? You know, do we end on a a poignant note? Do we end on a hilarious note? Like, how do we actually honor, honor our viewership?

9:14 Says me, who doesn't work in television. Congratulations on exactly as I am a great read and, and, and look, that's coming from someone who is a bit of a, a hack. Like I don't read a lot of poetry. And so when I come across a collection that has such a variety of styles and, and pieces and topics, I, I thoroughly enjoyed it and it kind of kept me guessing as we went. So you know, every, every single shortlist it's been on and every single finals list it's been on, it's been well deserved. Oh, thank you. Yeah, it was. It was definitely like a joy to write. And it feels like I've most recently written a new poetry collection that I'm sort of pitching to publisher. So it sort of feels very a moment in time now. And so does Milk Teeth.

10:03 It kind of feels like it's I'm like, who was that? Who wrote that? Who's this person? What I want to know, Ray, is, is kind of what's your origin story of starting to create and share your work? Yeah, I, so I did a creative writing degree sort of mid 2000s and it was one of those things where I felt like I wasn't like good enough to be a writer. And so I, I didn't write for 10 years, which is, is a huge amount of time, I feel. And then sort of I was, I was doing some work in community radio and stuff at the time and I got published in a scene called Wolf Pack that was a a meander based scene.

10:51 And I was like, you know what? I'm, I'm going to, you know, I'm going to be a poet. I'm going to and it was this kind of this kind of thing where I was like, you know what, I'm going to be a poet. I'm going to be. I wanted to get published before I turned 30, which I did. And then I was like, oh, you know what? I'm I'm going to go like, you know, do do this poetry thing. This seems to be like, there was a lot of poetry that I was reading that I was like, this is not like the poetry I read at school, you know, this is, you know, poetry that I'm. I was being exposed to it like book events and open mics and things. And I was like, oh, this is fantastic. I'm going to do this poetry thing. So I wrote a manuscript, ended the shop cot won it and went, oh, yeah. And it was, it was kind. It was definitely like a bit of a, it was both a fluke and not a fluke.

11:32 Like I worked hard on the collection, but it was also not something I was expecting to to, you know, even place in because I was, you know, some no name little guy who was, you know, just writing scenes and performing open mics. And I was like, oh, OK, so that was that was kind of the, the origin story went from being like, I'm a terrible writer and I can't write to I'm just going to be a poet. Yeah, it escalated quickly. It did escalate. It escalated, yeah, I guess like over 1010 plus years. And now I've like, I feel like poetry is once you kind of start on that journey, it is a bit of a gateway drug.

12:13 Like you're like, oh God, I can't actually, you know, do this. And I genuinely think that, you know, most people can like, write poetry because of of how like vast and like accessible it is. So yeah, that's sort of origin story. Yeah, I love it. Love it. The the decision was made. We're we're doing this. And you, you took a chance, you know, you, you had, you had high hopes, low expectations, which I think is, is the key. And Oh my God. So much, yeah. And yeah, your, your debut poetry collection, like you said, milk tea that won the Thomas Shakop poetry prize, which I, I believe is the same prize that Alfred Shastra, her her one of her works also won the same prize, which which led to to publishing and and the rest is history.

13:04 I want to know, like when you when you won that, how does it feel to be recognized and regarded so highly by peers in literature? Yeah, it's like, it's definitely, it was quite like daunting at the time and like I, yeah, it was also like incredibly like humbling because I think like the chapcot, it did really kick things off for me in terms of career. You know, people started to to notice my work and read it. And then I also got around the same time I got shortlisted and and placed second for the Judith Wright Poetry Prize through Overland.

13:44 So yeah, it was, it was quite, it was a bit of a bit of a whirlwind. And I think like it sort of it was one of those things that made me realize that I was kind of like a part of a whole like it, you know, poetry is such a a beautiful community. And I wanted to make sure that I was, you know, like part of that community and giving back to that community. Because I think like, you know, it's not just about one prize. It's not just about one book and like showcasing your own work, you know, because we're not just poets sort of by ourselves. And like in isolation, like I think poetry is a very community driven thing. And yeah, like, I wanted to sort of, you know, be part of that and like make sure that I was, you know, yeah, giving back and like, you know, being part of the, the kind of bigger picture of like, you know, queer trends, poetics and stuff like that.

14:39 So. Awesome. So, you know, being recognized and, and I guess being championed by people helped you to, to, to, to want to give back and to, yeah, be, be a voice and, and be a, you know, a creative voice for people in that space. Yeah. Yeah. And like, I think it's, you know, because it's, it's strange to kind of have people, you know, come up to and be like, I really love your work, you know, and it's sort of like, I often try to turn it back on them and be like, oh, so do you write poetry? And then like, because I want to hear about, you know, about their voice as well. Like, yeah, I'm, I'm very much like anti hierarchy, I think.

15:22 So, yeah, it definitely was a humbling experience. And, you know, fed, fed definitely like winning something. I was surprised. And like, you know, having won like other prizes and stuff, like it just makes me become more of kind of an anarchist, to be honest. Very. Good, Very good. I want to talk about, I guess, you know, representation in the literature and how that's that's a factor that's definitely changing and growing a lot, but there's still, I guess, significant challenges. What would you say are some, I guess, misconceptions around, you know, non binary or trans narratives that you wish more people understood? Yeah.

16:03 But I think, yeah, with everything sort of happening at the moment, there's like a lot of trans rights being stripped back throughout like, you know, the world. And I think like, yeah, I, I feel like I wish that people understood more like about how, you know, both, both gender and and sex are kind of both social constructs because like, once, you know, we realized that gender and sex are sort of both kind of totally arbitrary and, and made-up, you know, we can start to kind of unpack things in our lives that, like, are holding us back. And it can be really like, daunting, I think at first because, you know, you can be like, you know, what's the point of it all?

16:48 Like, you know what, what even is the point of me, you know, thinking about gender? And then you realize, I think that gender can be quite, you know, messy and fun and you can play around with it, you know, maybe even start writing poetry about gender. But I think, yeah, it's looking at gender as something and, you know, as something that is, you know, a social construct is sort of, I feel like the first step to, you know, to people, you know, exploring more of their gender, you know, even if like yours is if you're trans. So I think that would be, yeah, that would be something that I would like to see, you know, talked about a bit more because it kind of, you know, it shows that, yeah, gender is a social construct. Sex is a social construct, which, you know, is, you know, when we look at, you know, there's so many different variations.

17:45 We have intersex people who are, you know, continuously, you know, vilified and, you know, not, not discussed. So yeah, I think that would be a starting point. Yeah, yeah, for sure. If you're comfortable talking about it. Ray, you know, you mentioned both gender and sex there as social constructs. Now I feel like the conversation around like gender being a social construct has been around for a while. Could you tell us a bit more about sex as a social construct? Because are are are you talking about how? I don't know, We, we make observations about someone's biology and through that we kind of make a a decision about you are this or that is that kind of what what you're going with and within that there. Can be so much.

18:35 Variation like you said. Yeah, exactly that. Yeah. And I think like, you know, if, you know, a child is born and, you know, the doctor's like this is a boy, this is a girl based on, you know, on genitals, basically. And there can be so much variation with that. You know, as I said, like people who are intersex and then there's, you know, so much variation in like chromosomes, like, you know, no one's out there getting their chromosomes tested. Like we could all have like, you know, a wild variety, you know, that we're that we're not aware of. And I think like, you know, there's there's not only that, but then there's, you know, people looking at say when someone is trans and they start on HRT, there's still that kind of assumption of, you know, like, you know, X gender born in X body. But it's so much more than that.

19:26 There's kind of like if you break it down, you know, sex, sex is can be something that is. Yeah. I guess like it's hard to, I was like, it's hard to articulate. But like, you know, if you think of someone who is, you know, like a trans man who has, you know, undergone maybe some surgeries, is on HRT, like, do you still, you know, are they still the sex that they were assigned at birth? No, they're the, the sex that they say that they are. And there's such a, a myriad of ways to to express sex and to express gender. I think it's just so much more than than what we're we're told. And you know what society upholds and it's it's even more messy than just like, you know, trans men and trans woman like it's.

20:22 And I think it's messy in a good way. Like it's extremely, extremely beautiful and extremely freeing to look at, you know, gender and sex both as things that are changeable and, you know, things that aren't fixed. You know, you can, you can actually be who you want to be, assuming the government doesn't tell you that you can't like take hormones, whatever it is. But even then, you know, you're still the person that you say you are. And if you're, you know, you know, assigned male at birth, but you're like a woman, you are both a woman. You know, both your gender and your sex are female if you say they are. So it's kind of because once again, like it's these are all words that we use for, you know, like words that we used to to categorize.

21:13 And so it's like, why? Why not create our own categories as well and not necessarily adhere to the, you know, the social constructs that we've been, we've been taught Eric Ranch over. No, no, thank you. I appreciate you going into detail there. I didn't see the film, but I wanted to ask you whether you had any hot takes on Amelia Perez and whether that, you know, did it move the conversation about trans people forward or back 50 years? I I don't, to be honest with you, I'm quite media illiterate. So no, I haven't, I haven't watched it. Yeah, 0 hot takes whatsoever.

21:55 I'm, I'm one of those people that I listen, listen to a lot of audio books and I read a lot of books and I don't, I don't watch a lot of movies or, or TV shows. So yeah. Yeah, no, all good, All good. I just know that it was, you know, it was, it was, it was a contentious like Oscar nominee because people had issues with, with the way certain things were portrayed as well as the way, you know, certain cultures were portrayed as well. So I don't know, I, I, I might get around to seeing it at some point and then I can, I can have fully formed thoughts. Maybe, I mean, maybe the music's OK. I I don't know. I don't know, So I don't.

22:36 Know I love that when like there's a movie where you're like and then you're like. The soundtrack is good though. Yeah, yeah, very good. Now Ray, you very much, you know, have a lot of a lot of kind of side hustles and things keeping you busy. You, you have founded Hashtag Envy life and Uplift poetry. You know, to to amplify non binary and gender diverse voices. As we've been talking about, what led to you kind of creating those and and what, what gaps are you hoping that those platforms can fill within the landscape? Yeah, I think so for NBA life, Yeah, it's a it's a journal for non binary and gender diverse creatives.

23:22 And so we publish, you know, the voices of our community both like here in so-called Australia and also worldwide. And that's, you know, to to like amplify those voices and take up space. And we're often people's first publication, which is really lovely. It's, it's amazing. And it's like, it's wonderful to work with new creatives and to to edit their their work and also to like to pay them for their work. So at the moment we're solely like run on on donations from our Kofi, which is amazing. And then yes, if it uplift poetry as well, that one is about, you know, uplifting people and their poetry through community and resources.

24:08 So we're not exclusively for non binary and LGBT people, but the the org is run by me and my my partner who's trans as well. And we have like a lot of trans people coming on board in the team soon to write poetry book reviews. So it is kind of one of those things where like I saw kind of a gap in resources for poets that I didn't see sort of elsewhere in the country. And I wanted to, you know, to give those resources to people. So we compile newsletters about poetry, events that are happening, submissions opportunities. And we're also, yeah, releasing a book reviews section, as I mentioned.

24:56 So that's, that's really exciting. And that's also like a community funded. So we've run only on on paid memberships. So yeah. And we're actually reached, I just looked at the stats this morning and we're at like 1200 subscribers. So that's wild. I don't know, right? I'm like what shocking people love poetry, but I think that's The thing is like I I wanted to you know, I saw that there wasn't these resources for the poetry community, so I was like, well, I'll create them and same kind of with envy life where I saw that there wasn't a lot of space that's the non binary and gender diverse people to be published. So I was like, well, I'll do it, which is, you know, very on brand for me.

25:44 Got to have, I've got to like, I love layering like 20 million different jobs and just like still being pretty underpaid. You know, it's, it's arts, arts life. Art is life. Yeah, so. I think so many wonderful things have come about from, you know, motivated, good people who, who look around at the landscape or, or the market or whatever and say, there's there's a gap here, there's there's opportunity, there's an opportunities, sorry, there's opportunities lacking for, for people or, or something, something needs to go here and they're able to envision it and bring it to life. So I'm thrilled that it's it's going so well for you and for the communities. Yeah, me too.

26:25 And like, I think, yeah, hopefully it just keeps on, you know, keeps on growing because it's something that I'm really passionate about. And I think like, it is also it does also stem from the fact that it is hard as a trans person to be employed, you know, in the current, you know, political climate. And so, you know, making my own jobs and roles and, you know, getting to, you know, be paid for them is is pretty huge. So, yeah, I was like, please donate to my orcs. Lovely listeners, but honestly, it is it's it's it's pretty, it's pretty wonderful. And I think, you know, because it is quite hard to, yeah, as I said, get a job both as a trans person and also in the arts.

27:10 So yeah, I was like, well, I'll create them. It's. It's one of the world's tricky Venn diagrams, I'm sure. Oh. Oh, it is. And you know, Ray, you continue to take on like more of a leadership role nationally. You're actually on the board of Australian Poetry now. I, I know nothing about Australian Poetry as an organization. I'm interested, you know, how do they function? And you know, why do you think a a organization, a leadership organization like Australian Poetry, is important in creative fields? Yeah, definitely. Yeah. So Australian poetry is defined as like the peak national body for poetry in Australia. So we do.

27:59 We have the Australian Poetry Journal as well as the anthology. There's Best of Australian Poems is run through Australian Poetry if. I want to be. A poem. Do I need to? Apply to them first. I was like, yes. And then you get a no, no, no. I think you can subscribe to, like, the newsletter. And there's also, like, the the journal as well. But no, it's not like a stamp. Well done. You're now an official poet. Yeah. Poetry license. I mean, I might break that up in a board meeting. That could be kind of cool. Oh, no. But yeah.

28:41 So we do like a heap of stuff once again, like an org that like, you know, does 20 million different things. Oh, and the An Elder Award has run through Australian poetry. And yeah, I was invited to to be on the board, which is really, you know, once again, like really humbling to be, to be asked to, to do something like that. Because I think like, you know, leadership, like in creative governance is, you know, so much about, you know, shaping culture and like fostering, you know, innovation and ensuring that there's, there's equality. And like, when you know, someone who's trans, like myself is, is part of that leadership, You know, it helps to push boundaries and, and challenge norms and create, you know, more inclusive, you know, futures for an organization. And I think like also, you know, there's a lot of talk at different, you know, organizations like especially like on a corporate level about diversity and leadership. And I think like, you know, a lot of arts organizations, you know, like Australian poetry are actually, you know, fulfilling that.

29:58 And yeah, like hopefully as as like a trans person on the board, like I'm hoping that, you know, I can sort of encourage like more, I guess, dynamic and inclusive poetics and, you know, help us like resonate with like wider audiences that sort of reflect real world diversity. Because, you know, you said that you didn't know about them. So like I'm like, well, that's, you know, how, you know, who are we reaching? How are we reaching those audiences? Yeah, that's that's my trans people should be in leadership brands. Yeah, yeah. And it just sounds like, you know, a natural extension of of your advocacy in in everything you do.

30:42 So did were were you like approached for that role or did you? Yeah, that, that's. Funny, yeah, which is, yeah, really lovely. Like, and I think like a lot of boards will advertise positions to try and, you know, like get a diverse range of applicants and then others will, you know, depending on what they need and you know what they're looking for to make the board diverse, they'll reach out to certain people. So yeah, it's it, Yeah, it was. It was a very humbling to be approached. And also, yeah, I think I've, I'm coming into my third, second or third year on the board now.

31:25 So good times. Very. Good. Yeah, I'll bet, I'll bet, Ray, I think we're ready for piece #2. We went. With bated breath. Amazing. I'm going to read this is Gender Marker and it's a poem sort of about gender markers and, and names and stuff and changing those on official documentation and the kind of the frustrating process of it all and how it's kind of often quite old school. So this is called gender marker. You fax the emailed, printed, scanned copy of the copy of the copy of the government form to the sun cracked machine on the beach.

32:17 The waves slap it up because they love repetition. Tiny hermit crabs tinker across the square plastic edges, tickling the machine with their claws. It laughs, grey skins splitting in fissures, choking out faxes with guffaws, papers strewn akimbo on the beach where X mucks the spot, X mucks the X mucks the X mucks the X mucks the X. In the end, it's all in the ocean, X's cruising waves, like they own the joint. Because maybe they do in the end.

33:00 In the end, even the crabs slide out with the tide. And for people looking at the, the, the, the visual poem is yeah. Oh, we, we added some ASCII art. Love a love a little. Bit well, it's just another, another, Yeah, another element of why I really liked the collection because it's not just the the words, it's the form. It's it's having fun, but I could again, I like it when I can sense the writer of a collection like enjoying themselves and having fun with with all the different elements there. Oh, I I definitely enjoyed any time I write a poem, I enjoy it. But like, I do enjoy including those elements where, you know, I'm like, look, if we're harking back to, you know, using faxes, you know, like trying to, you know, talk about how gender markers are outdated on forms, why not use some, some old school ASCII art?

34:01 Yeah, I do really love playing around with form in poetry. Good stuff. Now I want to dive into into the crab infested waters, maybe of of the creative process. I'm just curious, Ray, how do you go from zero to 110 or or whatever it might be with actually, you know, generating ideas and finalizing them into something that could be included in a, a collection such as this? Yeah, I feel like I work very fast. It is definitely like zero to 100. I think it definitely depends on like the like the piece of work that I'm formulating.

34:45 So like a Zine or a poem for Zine might be kind of a bit more vibes based and I might bring together, you know, some collage ideas and words and kind of see where things kind of organically might take me. But, and sometimes that's the case for a poem as well, But it's it's often different if I'm like approaching a poem, say for a Commission or for a themed call out, something like that. So I might, you know, jot down some ideas and associations, kind of like a bit of a mind map or a murder board kind of vibe. I'm putting up a you. Know red strings connecting different. Ideas. Yeah, yeah.

35:26 Yeah, yeah. I do sometimes like think about that and I'm like, is that just, is that my brain when it's having a poem? Like I talk about having a poem because that's kind of that's kind of what it is. It's like, you know, what are all the elements? What do I, what's the meat of it all? What do I want to say? But also what are the the other kind of branches? And like, yeah, that's kind of I feel like for for poems, that's definitely how I work. And you know, there's I go to an open mic pretty regularly called echoes from The Cave in, which happens here in me engine. And we have what's called a 5 minute speed poetry round.

36:07 So you get one, one or three prompts and you have 5 minutes to write a poem and then perform it. And that kind of, so that definitely like often will will generate a new poem for me. And it's that kind of that time limit. The prompt maybe like, you know, something that's been bubbling around in my head also is added to that. So that's often definitely like another part of how I how I work. And there's, I also go sometimes to a writing group, let's say at the Museum of Brisbane, and it's Nick Rustic writing group. So we'll write responses to different artworks that are on display and that will also often like generate, you know, something that I wasn't often it's something that I wasn't expecting. And I will, you know, blend the, you know, the artwork or what, you know, what I think that artwork might be trying to say into other things that I'm wanting to say. So it's 20 million different approaches. Yeah, yeah, a, a, a larger, yeah, a larger toolkit, I suppose.

37:17 Yes, yeah, 100%. Because like, I feel like even if I think that I am, you know, feeling a bit dull and have writer's block, I can still, you know, go right, I've got this, this one prompt and I've got 5 minutes. Let's go. Yeah, and after a beer at the open mic, like. Yeah. You're like, I'm a God. I can clearly write anything. We are feeling good. Yeah. Who's the character? Is it Felix? Felix the cat who has like the bottomless bag or whatever? Oh yeah. Maybe. Yeah. Oh, I don't know. It's been a while. But no, I do feel like it's my, like my, my poetry tool kit is very TARDIS like. I think it's yeah. Yeah, that's what I'm getting.

37:58 At yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a ton of a ton of stuff. And I think that's, you know, like it's really, it's really good. Like even if I'm writing to a theme and wanting to write maybe like 5 poems to a a set theme, the the process is often like multifaceted good. Stuff and you know, it's definitely come across how you enjoy experimenting with with form and, and I guess function of, of poems. Shastra Deyo mentioned that you've been creating some what's called twine poem in in itch dot IO and experimenting with like simple game design.

38:39 And I, I've taken a look at some of your work here. I played through, I think it was called my first Queer Picnic, something like that. Oh yes, yes, picnic. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was so charming. I loved the the little 8 bit soundtrack and everything and it just, I don't know, it was just a nice experience. So this this is introducing like a new element, an element of almost like interactivity from the the reader or player. How does that like change things for poetry? How does it enhance and how, what does that have to, to offer someone? Yeah. Yeah, I think yeah, like as you said, like I do so yeah, I have a twine poem and I have a number of of bitsy, what I kind of call poem games. And yeah, so there was stand up which that that was kind of I made that.

39:36 I think I made that like either in a lockdown or like I can't remember, but like I kind of just had a red hot go at using Bitsy and then that game kind of took off and it's like won awards and stuff and like the the engine. That you build them in is that. Right. Yeah. So Bitsy is like the that's the one for the little 8 bit guys, and Twine is the the one for kind of like more hypertextual storytelling. And that one was called How to Haunt. And yeah, like I love kind of both, both platforms because, you know, I love that. You know, people, I guess, like readers or in this case players can kind of interact with the the games and the poetry and sort of, you know, see poetry in a, in a different way. So it's not just like, you know, because I'm, I'm both like a like predominantly, I guess a page poet, but I'm also a stage poet.

40:34 Like I also perform. And then this kind of adds like another kind of dynamic and you know, when you're when like a player or reader is weaving their way like through a story with a a character that they're playing, it kind of adds like a a new interesting dynamic. You know, it can feel like they may be in the the protagonist's shoes a bit more like you said with queer Picnic And you know, it can kind of because like a lot of my pieces talk about transphobia and queer phobia. You know, it can be maybe like a bit uncomfortable as a learning experience, but it can also encourage players, I think to kind of sit with that discomfort and also like experience, you know, joy and euphoria because like all of my games kind of maybe apart from How to haunt, that was real sad.

41:29 But like, the Betsy games do predominantly always have like that kind of happy note of euphoria and love and like, good vibes. So it does, it does definitely end like add a different dynamic to how I how I look at poems. And I really, really enjoy that because, yeah, I do feel like they are like a lot of people call them, you know, games or call me a game developer or something. I love that. To be honest. I feel like I'm just a poet making poems on a different platform. It's I was going to say, yeah, it, it certainly creates a new dimension when you create something that people can, so to speak, like walk around in.

42:17 And, and like I said, there is the element of agency, whether it's, you know, you're you're deciding to continue talking to a character who's expositing to you or you're, you're deciding, I mean, even even seeing if you can like break some of these games and be like, what happens if I walk backwards or whatever, like even. That yeah, I'll go for like. Even that is an expression of creativity. Yeah. And as someone who's like for me, who's as someone who's loved video games ever since I, one of my earliest memories is watching my dad, you know, fight Robo Hitler in Wolfenstein 3D on his on his work laptop. You know, I feel like this, this discussion about like our games, art and this thing has been going on forever.

43:01 And, and like, you know, yes, they are. I mean, they don't, they don't have to be like there is nothing wrong with with a, a visceral, you know, jumping on Fortnite with your mates, right. But you're, you're not necessarily going to find much poetry content there. But I'll tell you what, the indie scene, I mean, I still, I still remember playing in high school like Braid, the puzzle game for the first time and going to my English teacher and being like, there's, there's these books that you can read in this game and they've got like this, this bizarre, like almost mythic story that they're telling. What do you think of this or, or you know, people are talking about this game at the moment, clear Obscura and, and you know, saying that it has such a, an interesting, you know, overarching story to tell about like mortality and, and stuff like this. And you know, I mean, we can, we can get a bit cross eyed after a while and it all becomes a bit, a bit wanky. But I do think that there's, there's incredible potential there, but you, you're just not going to find it everywhere. And you don't need to find it everywhere. We don't need to to turn like every interactive experience into poetry, But when they do, I think it's great. Yeah, I was like, how dare you?

44:15 I turn every experience. No, but like, I, I, I agree. Like I think and I think like, you know, like I would even, you know, like some of the games they make, I'm like, is this a game? Is this an art piece? Is it who cares? Like, you know, and like, as you said, like we can, you know, people often don't think that games are art. And like, I love to to kind of like turn that on its head because like a lot of my poems, what I call it crustic poetry, but they're about games and you know, people are like, oh, but that's not true at crisis. Like that's not true poetry drawing from art. And I heavily disagree. Like I, I love writing poetry, especially about like Pokémon and Animal Crossing, because you know, I think like, you know, people like, oh, you know, it's silly little, you know, kids games kind of things.

45:04 I'm like, no, like, what if I, you know, draw on those sources and, and like, play with them and dismantle them and like, engage with them and create, create poetry. Like, I think, yeah, I think games are amazing. Yeah, I have. I have a lot of feelings. Yeah. And look, every now and then we do see some of this stuff leak into the mainstream. I mean, you know, and again, again, it seems to be something that that is maybe of a, a bygone generation or era. And hopefully it comes back because, you know, you you start putting ideas about like agency and radical individualism into like Bioshock, for example. But then, you know, they have to strip that back for the sequel because otherwise it's not going to sell. Like there's this constant thing of like, games are so expensive that they can't always, I guess, bring to life all the ideas they may want to.

45:55 Yeah. And it's really, I think like a lot of games are like, you know, becoming more like diverse and like kind of, you know, putting, putting those elements in. And then like there's, you know, there's a lot of backlash. But then, you know, because it's often like the controversy means that there's increased sales and there's sometimes it means there's decreased sales. And it's almost like, you know, like book banning and stuff where, you know, like there's often a backlash against, you know, a lot of books by, by strange diverse authors and, you know, LGBTQIA plus authors. And it's just, yeah, it's, it's a whole thing.

46:37 And that's the other thing like, you know, is, is the community, Yeah. Ready to engage respectfully in conversation. I mean, I think, I think, you know, when we talk about like toxic gaming culture, I think it is a small space. But when you see that space, I mean, you know, Last of Us season 2 is on at the moment. And it's so bizarre to see this discourse play out five years later after the game was released. And it's, it's just as bad. And now they, they have an actual, well, I mean, back then they had an actual, you know, voice actor to be a lightning rod of all this hate. But now, like, you know, the, the, the type of vitriol that like Bella Ramsey is copping at the moment, like it's disgusting. You just got to we.

47:20 We've got to stop. Yeah, I was. I was like, yeah, that's basically it. Like just yeah, I think yeah, there is. And I think there is so much hate out there and like, you know, we're seeing it, you know, play out, you know, in politics and having, you know, so many marginalized people being used as like, you know, political footballs. And it's just like, we could not. That would be great. And I think like, that's why like so much of my, my, my work is, is like community focused and stuff because I'm like, I don't know how to cope with this, you know, is, is this the solution?

48:02 You know, is that kind of, you know, community focus and pushing against, you know, pushing back against that kind of, you know, hierarchical political kind of vibe is, you know, is that the the key hopefully makes me feel less crap. Yeah, I'll, I'll make one more point on this in that I think it's also a shame because, and let me know if you agree. I think gaming culture and maybe like nerd culture and things adjacent to that, you know, I think in general they've kind of been seen as a, as a haven for people, you know, in in minority groups, let's say, you know, as a place that is safe to to, to play and to, to experience and, and, and, and whatever. And I think, yeah, these these kind of, like I said, these kind of toxic pockets that that pop up. I think it can be really, really damaging. Yeah.

49:00 It can. And I think like, yeah, like my partner is part of like the TTRPG scene and like creates a lot of games. And like, you know, I think that, you know, she experiences like, you know, such a beautiful, like there's such a beautiful community. There's a lot of like collaboration, especially when it comes to indie games and stuff. And then there are, yeah, like, as you said, like a lot of a lot of different pockets that that aren't so great. And I got to say, like when I go to to events and stuff with her, it's incredible to see the amount of, you know, people like me there. So I think it is, you know, becoming more of a space like especially indie games, it's becoming like a space for for queers, by queers because, you know, we're the people creating those games.

49:54 So I guess at the end what I'm asking is the Queer Picnic 2 Electric Boogaloo. Question. Question mark. Yeah, it's, it's weird. I usually like there's a it's usually like around winter where I get like I I somehow like just get into the mood to create a new bitsy game look, maybe a. Queer bonfire. Queer. Oh yeah. Oh, could you look at, oh, I mean, I guess queer picnic was kind of a queer potluck. Maybe I should like go on social media and be like what should I create a my next gay game about? Yeah, yeah. See what people want because it is one of those things where like from from the poem that I write to like the game I create. It's honestly like a matter of days. Like it's I just kind of go hard. Would not recommend.

50:41 Yeah, please rest everyone. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You need, you need your own quality control people or, or whatever. That's I think that's half the job sometimes. Yeah. Very good Ray. I want to talk about your latest release now, which is very exciting. Excuse me, you've you've branched out to writing for children with your debut children's book All the Colours of the Rainbow. There it is. What inspired you to write for a younger audience and, and you know, what impact do you hope that this book has for for those that explore it? Yeah. So yeah, I think I was at Pride, I think it was about 2022, and I was marching with people from my queer book group because of course, I go to a queer book group.

51:33 And it was, it wasn't my first Pride, but it was one of the first times where I was like, oh God, I can see all these beautiful rainbow families. And my friends were, you know, some of those beautiful rainbow families. And yeah, it was just, you know, amazing to watch. And I thought, oh, I, I really want to write, you know, a book for, for young people, you know, and the, and the like the young people that I can, you know, can see and that are in my, my life at the moment. And I think, you know, it also was a thing because I saw so few books, you know, when I was growing up that explored, you know, gender and identity.

52:16 And I think, you know, it's beautiful to see so many books, especially, you know, kids picture books that are out at the moment that celebrate diversity. So yeah, that definitely like both those things really like made an impact and made me wanna to branch out. And also, you know, writing a kids book is kind of mildly similar to poetry and that there's that kind of distilling of language, you know, you're looking at very succinct, you know, language choice. And it's kind of like almost like writing just one big long poem within reason. Spoiler alert. But yeah, I think you said asked what I hope to like comes from it.

53:05 I think like I hope that yeah, all the colours of the rainbow kind of encourages young people and and readers of all ages to be honest, to kind of embrace, you know, their identity with with confidence and with compassion. Because like the main character gem in the book, their journey kind of highlights that it's OK to explore identity beyond like as we were talking about before, like, you know, the traditional societal expectations. So I really hope the book sort of empowers readers and reassures them that, you know, they're not alone in wanting to kind of, you know, dismantle society's expectations of gender and have a bit of an explorer.

53:49 And I think hopefully parents and guardians and teachers as well can kind of use it as a starting off point to, you know, explore diversity and acceptance and sort of create and encourage open discussions and that kind of thing. So, yeah, it's sort of it is one of those things if, you know, you can't be what you can't see. And I think young people seeing themselves in this story, yeah, will hopefully give them the space to kind of express their identities and, and ask questions. Very good, very good. No, it's it's another good read. I'm wondering, you know, if I was to play devil's advocate for a bit, like, what would you say to someone who, you know, what would you say to an adult who, who sees this book on the shelf and feels, feels a bit anxious, you know, and they feel a bit anxious because they go, oh, I don't know how I feel about like, you know, children necessarily, you know, engaging with these kind of ideas.

54:57 Like, I think this is an anxiety for some people, you know? You you come across this. What would you say to to someone who's who's seeking that and going, oh, I don't know. I like, I don't know, Ray, what, what's going on here? Yeah. And I think like that is definitely like, and that's something that, you know, often, like, you know, I mentioned before book banning, it's like that's often that kind of like anxiety is where that kind of like, you know, the, you know, book bannings, like especially if like books for young people kind of comes from. And it is that anxiety of, you know, I feel like a lot of it is, is deep seated like kind of rooted anxiety of adults, you know, not growing up and being given those same kind of chances to reflect on their gender, their own experiences and that kind of thing. Like they, they haven't been given that opportunity to to be empathetic towards themselves and kind of explore identity, even if it's just something as simple as like, you know, a father wearing like a pink or purple shirt or something, you know, something that's like considered girly. Like, you know, there's so there's so much like deep seated anxiety around around gender and expression and what, you know, makes a good man, what makes a good woman, what makes a good mother and father.

56:20 And like, you know, queer families are out here like, you know, doing the hard work and like pushing back against that. And I think like, hopefully, like if someone is concerned, you know, about a book, you know, like this being shown to young people, like, you know, I, I definitely encourage them to, to like, to read it and to think about like their own experiences with gender, you know, their own, you know, perspectives and like, you know, what was their journey growing up, you know, and how they can kind of look at their own gender. And then, you know, from that point, kind of, you know, like what they're wanting for the young people in their life, you know, if they're, you know, wanting them to be more maybe expensive about their perspectives, even if that wasn't something that they grew up, you know, looking at.

57:19 So yeah, it's, it's it's not something that I've had a lot of people be too concerned about to my face. But I think like it's some, it is something that I hope like, you know, an adult can, yeah, look at like the book and, you know, what it's trying to say and also their own identity with, you know, with compassion. Yeah, no, really well said. And I think you know, the, the least you can do is if, if you know, if you're not sure about something, it's to actually read it and to think critically. Yeah. And, you know, it's, it's it's, it's a quick read for for an adult, I mean, it's a quick read.

58:00 The pictures are nice. So you know what, what, what have you got to lose? Kind of. Thing exactly. And like, if it's not the book, you know, there might be like another book out there that's like, you know, expressing what you know, you want to you know, to to give to your to your young person in your life. You know, so there's a lot of nice and lovely, like gender diverse and like, yeah, like identity centric kind of books out there that are really, really beautiful. Good. Stuff. Well, here's another one. Hey. Yeah, I was like, here's another one. Yeah. There you go. Please buy it. Thank you. What's So what's next for you, Ray?

58:40 What's what's kind of coming up for the the rest of 2025? Gosh, yeah, I think pretty much like I know my whereabouts up until like July. Beyond that, who knows? I do. It is one of those things where like often because you get booked like maybe a couple of months in advance for gigs, but that's about it. You're like, what does the year hold? So yeah, I'm doing Hewlett Festival, I'm doing the opening galore on the 20th of June and that's in in and that'll be, that'll be absolutely amazing. I'm really looking for Qlit. I'm looking forward to Qlit Festival.

59:21 I think that runs for about 7:00-ish days. And I'm also in a anthology called Effable, which is a queer, kinky, disabled poetry anthology. And that one's being put out in the UK through 14 Poems. And there's a launch for that on the 13th of July at 7:00 PM BST, which I think works out to be some ungodly hour of the morning for Aussies. But if you want to get up for it, I'm not going to, it's like it's like 4-3 or 4:00 AM.

1:00:03 And I was like, I'm going to pre record myself. So I am doing it. Yeah, I am doing it. But it's it's, it's like a. It's I, I will actually be asleep. It'll be a pre recorded thing. So I think that's what's coming up. I've also recently joined the team on transmission, which is a show on four Triple Z, our community radio station here for trans and gender diverse people. So I'll be on the radio a couple of times every month. So, you know, love to add another job to my list, but I'm really excited about that. So yeah. So, so far, that's that's the month of June and July. Good stuff.

1:00:48 Ray is on the airwaves. Very good. We now turn our attention, Ray, to the the overarching analogy that we've been using for Season 2, which is that if your creative work was an instrument in an orchestra, what instrument do you think it would be? Yeah, I'm not, I'm like not a super music. Like I don't know a lot about orchestras. So I did do a bit of research I think because as we've spoken about like I'm quite a community oriented person. So I was trying to think of like an instrument that's like both significant kind of in its own right, but also like helps tie an orchestra together.

1:01:35 And so I thought maybe the cello, because it has kind of, it has like kind of rich tones and provides sort of depths and support to the orchestra. And it often shares melodies with like, you know, both low and high instruments. But it also acts as like a bridge between sections as well, says me, who's never played the cello. But I now know more about it than I ever wanted to. I was like, thank you. I appreciate it. That's I love a deep dive. I love a deep dive, yeah. For sure. You're, you're not the first cellist in our little orchestra here.

1:02:16 And I I think I said to whoever it was, I can't remember who picked the cello. It's one of the few instruments that you can book a seat for on a plane. Yeah. Oh I feel like you should be able to book a seat, but you shouldn't have to pay for it. But that's just yeah, I don't, I don't know about that. I don't know if there's AI, don't know if there's a, you know, there's a a flight out there that's just cellos, you know, no people at all. It's. Just that's a poem. Yeah. Just imagine all like this, this silent flight with all these cellos. That'd be wild. They wouldn't they, they would just maybe if they hit turbulence, they would play like notes. I'd be like, you know, they. 'D just yeah, they'd make a bit of noise. I really like that as a poem.

1:02:57 That's really great. Like just a a plane made-up entirely of instruments anyway. And they would still get, you know, they would, they would be first class cellos, you know, and they would, they would still get aisle service. You know, all the regular stuff would happen. Maybe they would recline some of them. You know one of them there's there's a tiny little baby cello that's screaming the whole way. God, every flight, honestly. Oh, I say that like it must be awful. Like I was that crying child once. Like I was a very young flyer. Like as soon as I was like born, I was basically being on planes and like, I was that I was that baby crying. Like I have sympathy. Very good, Ray the cellist. I like it.

1:03:41 We now head to the segment shamelessly ripped off Diary of a CEOAKA Diary of a POET. You have been left a question from my previous guest. So this question comes to us from Nikki Vivica, who asks what is an unusual dream you've had and how did it impact your work? Yeah, I had to really think about this because I definitely feel like a lot of my poems are very like they do often follow a bit of dream logic and have a bit of like, you know, spec fit kind of weird elements to them. I think the most like memorable dream was I had a dream that my friend, he was in hospital. He was in hospital for a very long time and is, you know, doing a lot better.

1:04:32 But he, yeah, he was in hospital for a while. And I had a lot of like, you know, feverish stress dreams about him. And one of the dreams was pretty funny. It was about how he became a piece of IKEA furniture. And, you know, like, in this dream, I was able to like, kind of like, rebuild and remake him. Like it was obviously, you know, me having a lot of feelings about, you know, wanting to to, you know, see him better. And so that that dream became the poem gut punch in exactly as I am, which is actually like quite a sad poem with a slightly hopeful end, but also not as hilarious as the dream was because, you know, a person becoming a pit of IKEA furniture that you kind of have to like build is a weird dream.

1:05:27 It's a it's a weird dream. Was it a particular type of IKEA furniture? Like was it a Belkin bookcase or was it like a fluid or something like that or? Yeah, it was just vibes based. Yeah, not nothing specific did. You lose the Allen key, or was it? Was it always there? It was it was AI mean we I think the, the Allen key like didn't work very well. And like nurses kept coming by and being like, you know, what are you doing? And then, yeah, like there was whatever it was, had like little like whatever the furniture piece my friend was had those little plastic bits on the bottom so that you don't like scratch your, your, your floor or whatever. And I thought in my head, I thought there were shoes. Brilliant.

1:06:18 Like I said, this question from Nikki Vivica, who, who really likes talking about dreams and the, and, you know, the symbology and the, and the, the union side of dreams and whatever. So there's definitely something going on there, you know? You and your. Friend and whatever. So yeah, no, thank you for taking us into your subconscious ever so ever. So welcome. Now, Ray, you of course have the honor, nay, the responsibility, nay, the honor of leaving a question for my next guest sight unseen. What? Yes. I think my question will be if you could be any native Australian bird, like what would you be and why?

1:07:04 Because I really love birds. Oh yeah, even even the plovers of the world. Are they a native Australian bird? Yeah, the the mask lap wings. Yeah, yeah, they do. Yes, they they do love to protect their nest. I even love the this is this will be this will go great on like the podcast, but for visual like listeners, there's I've got lots of birds on my arm. I love yeah, I love curloos. I love, I love even love pigeons. Like, they, they don't, they don't mean no harm. Ibis. Like, I like, I like birds because I feel like, you know, they're often just trying to adapt to their surroundings and, you know, we're often quite, quite cruel to them.

1:07:50 So yeah, I have a lot of feelings about birds. What? What about bean chickens for any of those up north? Oh yeah, love them. Have a bean chicken tattoo as well. Once again, they're, they're, you know, just trying to live in an urban environment and, you know, because they were cast out of their, their habitats. So I'm like, yeah, I have sympathy for them. I think they're cute. Oh, I have, I literally have a, a bin chicken soft toy on my desk. So I have a lot of feelings about birds. I'm literally but the shirt I'm wearing has Magpies on it. Yeah, how good. I spoke about this with some previous guests, but I think there was a, there was a news article going around about a man, I think it was from Perth who was trying to cook a bean chicken and had to be, you know, they they are and eat it right and they are protected species. So he had to be told in court that you can't be doing that. So.

1:08:44 Yeah, yeah. Oh, that and the I don't know what the circumstances surrounding that because like if you are trying to cook an eat a bin chicken, like why? Yeah, there might be other factors at play. There, Yeah, Yeah. Like, are there other factors like, you know, were they like unable to like eat other things? Like if they were like sleeping rough, like, yeah, anyway, I don't know. I don't know the circumstances, but I'm like, oh, there's a lot of factors there. Yeah, yeah, maybe they they just had a dream of opening up a KFBC or something, I don't know. It's like I'm a vegetarian, no? All right, I won't. I won't indulge that anymore. Anymore Ray White, if that is. A poem, though.

1:09:27 Yeah, yeah, there's something in that. If, Ray, if people want to find out more about you, follow your work, support any of of these organizations or causes that you're a part of, where should they head? Yeah, pretty much. I've got a website raywhite.net that's. Rae, not RAY. Oh yeah, I am a poor artist. I don't sell real estate. Yeah, so RAEWHIT e.net and pretty much everything is on there. And yeah, uplift poetry, we have a website. We also have NB Life, which is ENBY life LIFE me, me trying to spell.

1:10:14 I'm like, how do you spell again? So envy life.net and I'm on pretty much most social media. Much to my I'm disgruntled about social media sometimes, but I am on pretty much everything. If you look at my name and yeah, if you want to subscribe to any of the things I do, that would be amazing. We we love donations. Certainly do, and we'll have links to all of those wonderful things. Yeah, in the show notes, as well as where you can pick up your copy of all the colours of the rainbow. And exactly as I am as well, Ray, you've got one more piece you're going to share with us.

1:10:56 Bring things to a soft close. Yes, I, I was not sure which one to end on. So I might go with, because we have been talking about real estate a little bit, sort of I'll go with Not Unlike Love, which is a poem about there was in my previous place where I lived, there was a bunch of land that was up for sale and I had feelings about it and all the construction that was going on next door. So this is called Not Unlike Love. It's something to do with impermanence, the flight swift slice of limb from log bone from branch, about the smallest snips it took to ground you. It's something not unlike possession about fell from falling, freedom from freefall, the quick cleave of chainsaws, the ancorellas screeching treeless. If evictions in moratorium, then does private equal public? And what what it might it mean to grow autonomy? In the hot bask of afternoon sun, I kneel to count your notches and you tell me we could be happy here. And so we dig and turn, plant parsley and basil, chives and mints.

1:12:29 We laugh at aphids, leaf hoppers, landlords and other pests. We knock down the gates and the for sale sign. We let the sun in. Thank you. This is. Wonderful, wonderful. Thank you for sharing your work and, and your stories and, and for for the advocacy that you are doing in the community. Ray White, it's been a a great chat. Thank you so much. Thank you for. For thinking with us and for slamming with us. Thank you so much, it's been an absolute pleasure.