Rae White - How Poetry and Queer Storytelling Are Changing Australia’s Literary Scene

1
00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:08,080
The medium is the message and
the message is welcome to I

2
00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:11,520
think therefore I Slam, the
podcast bringing you the best

3
00:00:11,560 --> 00:00:15,480
slam poetry and spoken word
artist from Australia and

4
00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:18,000
beyond.
My name is Andrew and my guest

5
00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:21,880
today comes highly recommended
by former guest Shastra Deo.

6
00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:26,160
My guest today is a non binary
transgender writer, educator and

7
00:00:26,160 --> 00:00:28,520
Zine maker.
Their poetry collection Milk

8
00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:32,360
Teeth won the 27th Arts
Queensland Thomas Shapcott

9
00:00:32,360 --> 00:00:36,120
Poetry Prize and their second
poetry collection, Exactly as I

10
00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:40,520
Am, was shortlisted for the 2023
Prime Ministers Literary Awards

11
00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:45,200
and the 2023 Judith Wright
Calanthi Award in the QLD

12
00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:48,080
Literary Awards.
This year they've branched out

13
00:00:48,080 --> 00:00:50,440
into the world of children's
picture books with their debut

14
00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:52,520
title All the Colours of the
Rainbow.

15
00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:56,080
Their poetry has been published
in Australian poetry Journal,

16
00:00:56,080 --> 00:01:00,360
Kodak Poetry Review, The Engine
Quarterly, Overland Rabbits and

17
00:01:00,400 --> 00:01:02,360
many others.
They're also the creative

18
00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:04,959
director and founder of the
community poetry initiative

19
00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:09,320
Uplift Poetry, and the founding
editor of Hashtag NB Life, a

20
00:01:09,320 --> 00:01:12,320
journal for non binary and
gender diverse creatives.

21
00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:15,960
They have a name that
phonetically often strikes fear

22
00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:20,120
into the hearts of us renters.
But today, I'm glad to say it's

23
00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:24,080
sparks joy for us all.
Please welcome Ray What?

24
00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:26,960
Hello.
Thank you so much for having me

25
00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:30,240
now, Ray.
I'm a good real estate joke.

26
00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:33,920
Yeah.
Ray it's, it's it's kind of been

27
00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:37,160
a crazy kind of time up your way
up north.

28
00:01:37,240 --> 00:01:40,080
I know that, you know, your
community has very much been

29
00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:43,160
been recovering from the
cyclones earlier this year.

30
00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:44,600
How?
How are things looking when you

31
00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:46,120
open your front door and walk
around?

32
00:01:46,960 --> 00:01:51,520
Looked pretty good to be honest.
We had a the like the park and

33
00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:53,640
community garden down the road
from us was a little bit

34
00:01:54,560 --> 00:01:56,800
flooded.
But you know, things are things

35
00:01:56,800 --> 00:01:58,960
are looking good.
So at least around my area, I

36
00:01:58,960 --> 00:02:01,640
think there's a lot of people
still still recovering though.

37
00:02:01,640 --> 00:02:05,240
Yeah.
But yeah, looking looking pretty

38
00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:06,720
good.
Things are looking up.

39
00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:08,039
Things are looking up.
No one.

40
00:02:08,080 --> 00:02:10,000
Yeah, yeah.
No one got the horrors of the

41
00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:12,880
world.
I'll just not think about them

42
00:02:12,880 --> 00:02:14,960
today.
Yeah, no one got swept away to

43
00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:16,120
Land of Oz.
We're we're all good.

44
00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:19,840
Here's a question.
Do do little, do local

45
00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:23,320
communities up north, do they
make Spoon villages, Little

46
00:02:23,320 --> 00:02:24,640
Spoonvilles?
Do you know what I'm talking

47
00:02:24,640 --> 00:02:26,600
about?
Spoon Villages.

48
00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:30,680
So it's where if people have a
spare like cooking wooden spoon,

49
00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:34,480
they will like plant it in a
particular place and kids will

50
00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:37,160
draw faces on it, put little
decorations on it and it's like

51
00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:40,120
a spoon village.
Is that just a Melbourne thing?

52
00:02:40,640 --> 00:02:44,400
I think it might be just because
we have like a in the community

53
00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:45,680
garden.
There's like this cute little

54
00:02:46,920 --> 00:02:50,800
fairy cottage and like little
fairy garden and stuff and like,

55
00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:53,400
it's, it's all like kind of in
this like tree nook and it's

56
00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:57,280
like left there for, you know,
for, for fairies and stuff.

57
00:02:57,520 --> 00:02:59,320
Yeah, but we don't have any
spoons.

58
00:02:59,320 --> 00:03:02,480
OK, No, I don't, I've never
heard of that before.

59
00:03:02,480 --> 00:03:04,920
But I am, I am going to now next
month.

60
00:03:04,920 --> 00:03:06,760
So maybe I'll have a look out
for them.

61
00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:09,920
Yeah, I mean again, maybe it's.
A Melbourne.

62
00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:13,280
Southeast suburbs kind of thing
that they, they pop up, you

63
00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:15,200
know, whenever.
Is there a reason for it or

64
00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:17,640
just?
Oh, I, I just think it's kind of

65
00:03:17,640 --> 00:03:19,080
cool.
You might see some outside

66
00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:21,840
primary schools too.
And I'm wondering like how how

67
00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:25,640
they would go in in a natural
disaster, like would Spoonbill

68
00:03:25,640 --> 00:03:29,000
survive a a flood or a cyclone
or a fire?

69
00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:34,280
Yeah, I mean, it's like, I'm not
an environmental expert, but I

70
00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:35,280
reckon.
Or a spoon.

71
00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:40,640
Or I'm also not a spoon.
Yeah, I think they might not do

72
00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:44,280
too badly.
That's really interesting.

73
00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:49,160
And also I'm just, I'm just like
picturing these spoons just all

74
00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:53,200
hanging out and then, like, I
mean, I guess like, if they

75
00:03:53,200 --> 00:03:55,840
became sentient, they'd maybe be
able to have a bit of a swim.

76
00:03:56,120 --> 00:03:57,160
Yeah.
Be OK.

77
00:03:57,440 --> 00:03:59,120
Yeah, who knows what they're
doing when when no one's

78
00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:01,280
watching, you know, just just
traveling along.

79
00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:03,040
Oh, yeah.
Very Toy Story.

80
00:04:03,040 --> 00:04:03,480
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Oh.

81
00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:09,760
Yeah, forky trash.
Amazing.

82
00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:13,200
Well, you know what isn't trash?
Here's a segue for you, the

83
00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:16,839
poetry of Ray White.
And Ray, you've brought a couple

84
00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:19,040
of your finest pieces for us
today.

85
00:04:19,839 --> 00:04:22,320
I think we'll dive into your
first piece.

86
00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:25,840
Amazing.
I almost forgot this was part of

87
00:04:25,840 --> 00:04:28,920
the The Geek today, so I'm glad
I did prepare earlier.

88
00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:32,840
Yeah.
So I'm going to read mostly

89
00:04:32,840 --> 00:04:37,480
poems from my latest collection,
exactly as I am, and this one is

90
00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:40,360
one of my favourites.
It's called Rainbow Confetti

91
00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:45,240
Pixels and I guess a content
warning for sort of mentions of

92
00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:48,040
transphobia.
But at the end of the day, it's

93
00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:52,240
a it's a very, both very
sarcastic and a very positive

94
00:04:52,280 --> 00:04:55,200
poem.
So this is Rainbow Confetti.

95
00:04:55,200 --> 00:05:00,920
Pixels coming out as a non
binary is like yelling into a

96
00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:04,720
void, but the void has
disappeared and being replaced

97
00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:08,120
by change rooms and target.
And they're not even echoey

98
00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:11,040
enough to surround sound your
voice so you can yell.

99
00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:16,040
Wait I'm neither of these mate.
Instead they're just small

100
00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:20,480
stalls getting smaller and
smaller and playing the same 80s

101
00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:25,040
and 90s.
Hits on repeat every damn time.

102
00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:29,320
You're ushered and tense.
Rinse repeat.

103
00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:34,400
You could rebel, but you don't.
You enter the change room but

104
00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:37,680
it's actually a toilet cubicle
because at the end of the day

105
00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:40,920
being trans is all about fucking
lose, am I right?

106
00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:45,600
Coming out as non binary is
staring big eyed at the toilet

107
00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:48,520
who's flapping their lid saying
feed me.

108
00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:51,400
Kind of like that 80s show the
trapdoor.

109
00:05:51,560 --> 00:05:55,480
Because all trans kids grew up
in the late 80s and early 90s

110
00:05:55,640 --> 00:06:00,200
and never aged and none of them
can be any older or younger than

111
00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:04,320
me because it's all just a fad
like butterfly clips and

112
00:06:04,320 --> 00:06:09,360
tamagotchis, am I right?
But they're back Tamagotchis.

113
00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:12,480
You can feed them and clean
their poop just like you could

114
00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:15,720
back in the day.
Because back in my day I was

115
00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:18,920
still searching the mobile
library bookshelves for books

116
00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:21,320
and words that described who I
was.

117
00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:26,000
Because coming out as non binary
is a whole God damn lifelong

118
00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:28,960
process.
Like Step 1.

119
00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:32,520
Brush the poop of your binary
existence out the door with a

120
00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:35,080
pixelated broom.
Step 2.

121
00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:39,120
Replace the poop with butterfly
clips of all different colours

122
00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:42,320
mirroring your bedrooms
purposefully rainbowed

123
00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:44,320
bookshelf.
Step 3.

124
00:06:44,920 --> 00:06:49,000
Scatter hundreds and thousands
like rainbow confetti pixels in

125
00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:51,360
the air.
Step 4.

126
00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:56,280
Yell just fuck off mate to the
demanding toilet binarists and

127
00:06:56,280 --> 00:07:00,680
their trans trender theories.
Because today's trans trend is

128
00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:04,920
not feeding the trapdoor all
those monsters.

129
00:07:05,680 --> 00:07:10,200
Today's trans trend is feeding
yourself love and goodness.

130
00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:14,800
Today's trans trend is believing
you are non binary enough.

131
00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:20,440
No matter what the monsters say.
Today's trans truth is that

132
00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:24,200
we've always been here.
Hundreds and thousands of years

133
00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:27,720
of us existing and echoing in
surround sound, pixel filled

134
00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:32,480
skies, writing our words and
stories into the historic void,

135
00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:37,920
coming out on repeat.
Rinse, repeat, rebel, repeat.

136
00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:42,560
Every damn time.
But never ever disappearing.

137
00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:48,320
Thank you.
Shirk feed me.

138
00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:51,640
Oh, I'm so I I'm glad someone
got the reference.

139
00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:54,520
Very good, very good.
Oh yeah, no.

140
00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:59,640
Great show.
The trapdoor and, and it, it was

141
00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:01,520
cool.
Like I think as a as a kid,

142
00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:03,560
we're kind of drawn to things
that are a little bit creepy.

143
00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:06,520
And I think the creepiest part
of it was at the end of the the

144
00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:11,760
credits where you'd hear that
voice go, but you remember that.

145
00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:15,240
Yeah, and I think like I, it's
one of those things where I

146
00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:17,560
think I was like, I was drawn to
a lot of creepy things,

147
00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:23,040
especially because like so often
like trans, you know, transness

148
00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:26,360
or like, you know, gender
difference is like seen as as

149
00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:29,480
monstrous and creepy and other.
And so it was kind of that,

150
00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:32,919
yeah, melding of those two
things.

151
00:08:32,919 --> 00:08:36,280
So.
There might have even been an EP

152
00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:39,799
where Burke actually went in the
trap door and then to like save

153
00:08:39,799 --> 00:08:42,520
his friend or something.
And and then it kind of had one

154
00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:44,520
of, I don't know, I feel like it
ended.

155
00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:45,720
Maybe that was the final
episode.

156
00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:48,320
Maybe it ended like, you know,
Blackadder Goes Forth where it

157
00:08:48,320 --> 00:08:49,920
was like really onions or
something.

158
00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:52,720
I don't know.
Oh yeah, Got maybe.

159
00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:57,760
Yeah, I was like, that was
another another show that I like

160
00:08:57,760 --> 00:08:59,960
the comparison between Trapdoor
and Blackadder.

161
00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:02,640
Oh yeah, yeah.
But I do feel like a lot of

162
00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:05,280
shows, like, you know, there's
that thing of like, how how do

163
00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:07,920
we end this?
You know, do we end on a a

164
00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:10,720
poignant note?
Do we end on a hilarious note?

165
00:09:10,720 --> 00:09:13,840
Like, how do we actually honor,
honor our viewership?

166
00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:16,440
Says me, who doesn't work in
television.

167
00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:24,480
Congratulations on exactly as I
am a great read and, and, and

168
00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:28,400
look, that's coming from someone
who is a bit of a, a hack.

169
00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:30,320
Like I don't read a lot of
poetry.

170
00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:33,160
And so when I come across a
collection that has such a

171
00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:37,880
variety of styles and, and
pieces and topics, I, I

172
00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:41,680
thoroughly enjoyed it and it
kind of kept me guessing as we

173
00:09:41,680 --> 00:09:44,200
went.
So you know, every, every single

174
00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:47,800
shortlist it's been on and every
single finals list it's been on,

175
00:09:47,840 --> 00:09:50,440
it's been well deserved.
Oh, thank you.

176
00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:52,720
Yeah, it was.
It was definitely like a joy to

177
00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:54,520
write.
And it feels like I've most

178
00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:57,080
recently written a new poetry
collection that I'm sort of

179
00:09:57,080 --> 00:10:00,680
pitching to publisher.
So it sort of feels very a

180
00:10:00,680 --> 00:10:03,880
moment in time now.
And so does Milk Teeth.

181
00:10:03,880 --> 00:10:06,760
It kind of feels like it's I'm
like, who was that?

182
00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:09,280
Who wrote that?
Who's this person?

183
00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:14,520
What I want to know, Ray, is, is
kind of what's your origin story

184
00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:17,320
of starting to create and share
your work?

185
00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:24,320
Yeah, I, so I did a creative
writing degree sort of mid 2000s

186
00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:28,160
and it was one of those things
where I felt like I wasn't like

187
00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:33,840
good enough to be a writer.
And so I, I didn't write for 10

188
00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:36,360
years, which is, is a huge
amount of time, I feel.

189
00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:41,160
And then sort of I was, I was
doing some work in community

190
00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:46,360
radio and stuff at the time and
I got published in a scene

191
00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:50,840
called Wolf Pack that was a a
meander based scene.

192
00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:54,680
And I was like, you know what?
I'm, I'm going to, you know, I'm

193
00:10:54,680 --> 00:10:57,360
going to be a poet.
I'm going to and it was this

194
00:10:57,360 --> 00:10:59,040
kind of this kind of thing where
I was like, you know what, I'm

195
00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:00,080
going to be a poet.
I'm going to be.

196
00:11:00,680 --> 00:11:03,360
I wanted to get published before
I turned 30, which I did.

197
00:11:03,640 --> 00:11:04,760
And then I was like, oh, you
know what?

198
00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:08,320
I'm I'm going to go like, you
know, do do this poetry thing.

199
00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:10,080
This seems to be like, there was
a lot of poetry that I was

200
00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:13,120
reading that I was like, this is
not like the poetry I read at

201
00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:16,160
school, you know, this is, you
know, poetry that I'm.

202
00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:21,240
I was being exposed to it like
book events and open mics and

203
00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:22,680
things.
And I was like, oh, this is

204
00:11:22,680 --> 00:11:24,160
fantastic.
I'm going to do this poetry

205
00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:25,680
thing.
So I wrote a manuscript, ended

206
00:11:25,680 --> 00:11:28,840
the shop cot won it and went,
oh, yeah.

207
00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:31,280
And it was, it was kind.
It was definitely like a bit of

208
00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:32,960
a, it was both a fluke and not a
fluke.

209
00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:36,200
Like I worked hard on the
collection, but it was also not

210
00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:40,160
something I was expecting to to,
you know, even place in because

211
00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:44,920
I was, you know, some no name
little guy who was, you know,

212
00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:49,000
just writing scenes and
performing open mics.

213
00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:52,640
And I was like, oh, OK, so that
was that was kind of the, the

214
00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:55,720
origin story went from being
like, I'm a terrible writer and

215
00:11:55,720 --> 00:11:58,600
I can't write to I'm just going
to be a poet.

216
00:11:59,280 --> 00:12:01,720
Yeah, it escalated quickly.
It did escalate.

217
00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:06,640
It escalated, yeah, I guess like
over 1010 plus years.

218
00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:11,640
And now I've like, I feel like
poetry is once you kind of start

219
00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:13,520
on that journey, it is a bit of
a gateway drug.

220
00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:16,320
Like you're like, oh God, I
can't actually, you know, do

221
00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:18,160
this.
And I genuinely think that, you

222
00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:22,920
know, most people can like,
write poetry because of of how

223
00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:26,560
like vast and like accessible it
is.

224
00:12:26,560 --> 00:12:30,880
So yeah, that's sort of origin
story.

225
00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:32,440
Yeah, I love it.
Love it.

226
00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:34,800
The the decision was made.
We're we're doing this.

227
00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:39,280
And you, you took a chance, you
know, you, you had, you had high

228
00:12:39,280 --> 00:12:42,080
hopes, low expectations, which I
think is, is the key.

229
00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:44,640
And Oh my God.
So much, yeah.

230
00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:47,360
And yeah, your, your debut
poetry collection, like you

231
00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:50,160
said, milk tea that won the
Thomas Shakop poetry prize,

232
00:12:50,480 --> 00:12:55,920
which I, I believe is the same
prize that Alfred Shastra, her

233
00:12:56,080 --> 00:13:01,600
her one of her works also won
the same prize, which which led

234
00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:04,000
to to publishing and and the
rest is history.

235
00:13:04,560 --> 00:13:08,120
I want to know, like when you
when you won that, how does it

236
00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:12,920
feel to be recognized and
regarded so highly by peers in

237
00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:15,880
literature?
Yeah, it's like, it's

238
00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:20,840
definitely, it was quite like
daunting at the time and like I,

239
00:13:21,360 --> 00:13:24,920
yeah, it was also like
incredibly like humbling because

240
00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:29,080
I think like the chapcot, it did
really kick things off for me in

241
00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:32,400
terms of career.
You know, people started to to

242
00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:36,200
notice my work and read it.
And then I also got around the

243
00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:41,120
same time I got shortlisted and
and placed second for the Judith

244
00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:43,880
Wright Poetry Prize through
Overland.

245
00:13:44,960 --> 00:13:47,360
So yeah, it was, it was quite,
it was a bit of a bit of a

246
00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:52,720
whirlwind.
And I think like it sort of it

247
00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:55,840
was one of those things that
made me realize that I was kind

248
00:13:55,840 --> 00:14:00,440
of like a part of a whole like
it, you know, poetry is such a a

249
00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:03,920
beautiful community.
And I wanted to make sure that I

250
00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:08,080
was, you know, like part of that
community and giving back to

251
00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:10,200
that community.
Because I think like, you know,

252
00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:12,760
it's not just about one prize.
It's not just about one book and

253
00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:16,240
like showcasing your own work,
you know, because we're not just

254
00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:19,440
poets sort of by ourselves.
And like in isolation, like I

255
00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:22,240
think poetry is a very community
driven thing.

256
00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:27,360
And yeah, like, I wanted to sort
of, you know, be part of that

257
00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:32,400
and like make sure that I was,
you know, yeah, giving back and

258
00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:34,960
like, you know, being part of
the, the kind of bigger picture

259
00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:39,560
of like, you know, queer trends,
poetics and stuff like that.

260
00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:41,600
So.
Awesome.

261
00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:44,920
So, you know, being recognized
and, and I guess being

262
00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:50,760
championed by people helped you
to, to, to, to want to give back

263
00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:55,000
and to, yeah, be, be a voice
and, and be a, you know, a

264
00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:56,680
creative voice for people in
that space.

265
00:14:56,760 --> 00:14:58,520
Yeah.
Yeah.

266
00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:02,560
And like, I think it's, you
know, because it's, it's strange

267
00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:06,040
to kind of have people, you
know, come up to and be like, I

268
00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:08,840
really love your work, you know,
and it's sort of like, I often

269
00:15:08,840 --> 00:15:11,200
try to turn it back on them and
be like, oh, so do you write

270
00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:12,680
poetry?
And then like, because I want to

271
00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:17,320
hear about, you know, about
their voice as well.

272
00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:21,640
Like, yeah, I'm, I'm very much
like anti hierarchy, I think.

273
00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:24,520
So, yeah, it definitely was a
humbling experience.

274
00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:29,280
And, you know, fed, fed
definitely like winning

275
00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:30,840
something.
I was surprised.

276
00:15:31,080 --> 00:15:33,080
And like, you know, having won
like other prizes and stuff,

277
00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:35,680
like it just makes me become
more of kind of an anarchist, to

278
00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:36,360
be honest.
Very.

279
00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:42,320
Good, Very good.
I want to talk about, I guess,

280
00:15:42,320 --> 00:15:46,160
you know, representation in the
literature and how that's that's

281
00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:49,080
a factor that's definitely
changing and growing a lot, but

282
00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:51,280
there's still, I guess,
significant challenges.

283
00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:56,320
What would you say are some, I
guess, misconceptions around,

284
00:15:56,320 --> 00:16:01,280
you know, non binary or trans
narratives that you wish more

285
00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:03,960
people understood?
Yeah.

286
00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:07,560
But I think, yeah, with
everything sort of happening at

287
00:16:07,560 --> 00:16:10,080
the moment, there's like a lot
of trans rights being stripped

288
00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:14,440
back throughout like, you know,
the world.

289
00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:20,560
And I think like, yeah, I, I
feel like I wish that people

290
00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:25,360
understood more like about how,
you know, both, both gender and

291
00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:29,920
and sex are kind of both social
constructs because like, once,

292
00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:33,720
you know, we realized that
gender and sex are sort of both

293
00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:37,640
kind of totally arbitrary and,
and made-up, you know, we can

294
00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:40,800
start to kind of unpack things
in our lives that, like, are

295
00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:43,360
holding us back.
And it can be really like,

296
00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:46,960
daunting, I think at first
because, you know, you can be

297
00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:48,120
like, you know, what's the point
of it all?

298
00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:52,680
Like, you know what, what even
is the point of me, you know,

299
00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:55,840
thinking about gender?
And then you realize, I think

300
00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:59,040
that gender can be quite, you
know, messy and fun and you can

301
00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:03,400
play around with it, you know,
maybe even start writing poetry

302
00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:07,280
about gender.
But I think, yeah, it's looking

303
00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:12,079
at gender as something and, you
know, as something that is, you

304
00:17:12,079 --> 00:17:15,119
know, a social construct is sort
of, I feel like the first step

305
00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:19,280
to, you know, to people, you
know, exploring more of their

306
00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:23,079
gender, you know, even if like
yours is if you're trans.

307
00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:26,520
So I think that would be, yeah,
that would be something that I

308
00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:31,680
would like to see, you know,
talked about a bit more because

309
00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:36,600
it kind of, you know, it shows
that, yeah, gender is a social

310
00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:38,840
construct.
Sex is a social construct,

311
00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:43,960
which, you know, is, you know,
when we look at, you know,

312
00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:45,560
there's so many different
variations.

313
00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:50,360
We have intersex people who are,
you know, continuously, you

314
00:17:50,360 --> 00:17:54,800
know, vilified and, you know,
not, not discussed.

315
00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:59,120
So yeah, I think that would be a
starting point.

316
00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:02,520
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
If you're comfortable talking

317
00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:05,200
about it.
Ray, you know, you mentioned

318
00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:08,160
both gender and sex there as
social constructs.

319
00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:11,680
Now I feel like the conversation
around like gender being a

320
00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:13,920
social construct has been around
for a while.

321
00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:17,960
Could you tell us a bit more
about sex as a social construct?

322
00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:21,160
Because are are are you talking
about how?

323
00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:27,480
I don't know, We, we make
observations about someone's

324
00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:32,160
biology and through that we kind
of make a a decision about you

325
00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:34,640
are this or that is that kind of
what what you're going with and

326
00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:35,640
within that there.
Can be so much.

327
00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:38,160
Variation like you said.
Yeah, exactly that.

328
00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:40,040
Yeah.
And I think like, you know, if,

329
00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:43,880
you know, a child is born and,
you know, the doctor's like this

330
00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:47,120
is a boy, this is a girl based
on, you know, on genitals,

331
00:18:47,120 --> 00:18:49,520
basically.
And there can be so much

332
00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:53,600
variation with that.
You know, as I said, like people

333
00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:56,640
who are intersex and then
there's, you know, so much

334
00:18:56,640 --> 00:18:59,240
variation in like chromosomes,
like, you know, no one's out

335
00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:00,760
there getting their chromosomes
tested.

336
00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:06,080
Like we could all have like, you
know, a wild variety, you know,

337
00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:07,440
that we're that we're not aware
of.

338
00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:12,840
And I think like, you know,
there's there's not only that,

339
00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:16,360
but then there's, you know,
people looking at say when

340
00:19:16,360 --> 00:19:20,320
someone is trans and they start
on HRT, there's still that kind

341
00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:24,360
of assumption of, you know,
like, you know, X gender born in

342
00:19:24,360 --> 00:19:26,960
X body.
But it's so much more than that.

343
00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:32,200
There's kind of like if you
break it down, you know, sex,

344
00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:35,800
sex is can be something that is.
Yeah.

345
00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:39,360
I guess like it's hard to, I was
like, it's hard to articulate.

346
00:19:39,360 --> 00:19:43,320
But like, you know, if you think
of someone who is, you know,

347
00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:47,760
like a trans man who has, you
know, undergone maybe some

348
00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:53,440
surgeries, is on HRT, like, do
you still, you know, are they

349
00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:56,000
still the sex that they were
assigned at birth?

350
00:19:56,400 --> 00:19:58,880
No, they're the, the sex that
they say that they are.

351
00:19:59,920 --> 00:20:04,360
And there's such a, a myriad of
ways to to express sex and to

352
00:20:04,360 --> 00:20:07,480
express gender.
I think it's just so much more

353
00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:13,680
than than what we're we're told.
And you know what society

354
00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:19,080
upholds and it's it's even more
messy than just like, you know,

355
00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:20,960
trans men and trans woman like
it's.

356
00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:23,800
And I think it's messy in a good
way.

357
00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:27,800
Like it's extremely, extremely
beautiful and extremely freeing

358
00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:33,640
to look at, you know, gender and
sex both as things that are

359
00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:39,320
changeable and, you know, things
that aren't fixed.

360
00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:42,720
You know, you can, you can
actually be who you want to be,

361
00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:47,080
assuming the government doesn't
tell you that you can't like

362
00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:50,440
take hormones, whatever it is.
But even then, you know, you're

363
00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:51,800
still the person that you say
you are.

364
00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:55,880
And if you're, you know, you
know, assigned male at birth,

365
00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:59,120
but you're like a woman, you are
both a woman.

366
00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:03,320
You know, both your gender and
your sex are female if you say

367
00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:05,680
they are.
So it's kind of because once

368
00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:10,960
again, like it's these are all
words that we use for, you know,

369
00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:13,080
like words that we used to to
categorize.

370
00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:15,320
And so it's like, why?
Why not create our own

371
00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:22,560
categories as well and not
necessarily adhere to the, you

372
00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:25,080
know, the social constructs that
we've been, we've been taught

373
00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:28,800
Eric Ranch over.
No, no, thank you.

374
00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:31,040
I appreciate you going into
detail there.

375
00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:34,800
I didn't see the film, but I
wanted to ask you whether you

376
00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:38,360
had any hot takes on Amelia
Perez and whether that, you

377
00:21:38,360 --> 00:21:42,000
know, did it move the
conversation about trans people

378
00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:46,440
forward or back 50 years?
I I don't, to be honest with

379
00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:51,920
you, I'm quite media illiterate.
So no, I haven't, I haven't

380
00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:55,440
watched it.
Yeah, 0 hot takes whatsoever.

381
00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:58,480
I'm, I'm one of those people
that I listen, listen to a lot

382
00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:01,280
of audio books and I read a lot
of books and I don't, I don't

383
00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:05,760
watch a lot of movies or, or TV
shows.

384
00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:09,360
So yeah.
Yeah, no, all good, All good.

385
00:22:09,360 --> 00:22:14,000
I just know that it was, you
know, it was, it was, it was a

386
00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:17,840
contentious like Oscar nominee
because people had issues with,

387
00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:21,240
with the way certain things were
portrayed as well as the way,

388
00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:25,280
you know, certain cultures were
portrayed as well.

389
00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:28,960
So I don't know, I, I, I might
get around to seeing it at some

390
00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:31,360
point and then I can, I can have
fully formed thoughts.

391
00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:33,960
Maybe, I mean, maybe the music's
OK.

392
00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:36,080
I I don't know.
I don't know, So I don't.

393
00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:38,040
Know I love that when like
there's a movie where you're

394
00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:40,720
like and then you're like.
The soundtrack is good though.

395
00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:47,920
Yeah, yeah, very good.
Now Ray, you very much, you

396
00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:51,400
know, have a lot of a lot of
kind of side hustles and things

397
00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:54,200
keeping you busy.
You, you have founded Hashtag

398
00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:59,560
Envy life and Uplift poetry.
You know, to to amplify non

399
00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:01,680
binary and gender diverse
voices.

400
00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:06,600
As we've been talking about,
what led to you kind of creating

401
00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:10,960
those and and what, what gaps
are you hoping that those

402
00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:12,920
platforms can fill within the
landscape?

403
00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:20,720
Yeah, I think so for NBA life,
Yeah, it's a it's a journal for

404
00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:22,680
non binary and gender diverse
creatives.

405
00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:27,680
And so we publish, you know, the
voices of our community both

406
00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:30,640
like here in so-called Australia
and also worldwide.

407
00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:35,280
And that's, you know, to to like
amplify those voices and take up

408
00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:38,160
space.
And we're often people's first

409
00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:40,040
publication, which is really
lovely.

410
00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:43,040
It's, it's amazing.
And it's like, it's wonderful to

411
00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:47,240
work with new creatives and to
to edit their their work and

412
00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:50,200
also to like to pay them for
their work.

413
00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:55,400
So at the moment we're solely
like run on on donations from

414
00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:59,720
our Kofi, which is amazing.
And then yes, if it uplift

415
00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:04,440
poetry as well, that one is
about, you know, uplifting

416
00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:08,160
people and their poetry through
community and resources.

417
00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:14,000
So we're not exclusively for non
binary and LGBT people, but the

418
00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:17,760
the org is run by me and my my
partner who's trans as well.

419
00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:23,040
And we have like a lot of trans
people coming on board in the

420
00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:25,880
team soon to write poetry book
reviews.

421
00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:29,920
So it is kind of one of those
things where like I saw kind of

422
00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:34,200
a gap in resources for poets
that I didn't see sort of

423
00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:39,320
elsewhere in the country.
And I wanted to, you know, to

424
00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:45,400
give those resources to people.
So we compile newsletters about

425
00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:48,480
poetry, events that are
happening, submissions

426
00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:52,480
opportunities.
And we're also, yeah, releasing

427
00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:56,920
a book reviews section, as I
mentioned.

428
00:24:56,920 --> 00:24:58,920
So that's, that's really
exciting.

429
00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:01,320
And that's also like a community
funded.

430
00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:05,120
So we've run only on on paid
memberships.

431
00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:08,280
So yeah.
And we're actually reached, I

432
00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:13,080
just looked at the stats this
morning and we're at like 1200

433
00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:15,680
subscribers.
So that's wild.

434
00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:21,200
I don't know, right?
I'm like what shocking people

435
00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:24,360
love poetry, but I think that's
The thing is like I I wanted to

436
00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:27,600
you know, I saw that there
wasn't these resources for the

437
00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:30,840
poetry community, so I was like,
well, I'll create them and same

438
00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:34,200
kind of with envy life where I
saw that there wasn't a lot of

439
00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:37,360
space that's the non binary and
gender diverse people to be

440
00:25:37,360 --> 00:25:39,360
published.
So I was like, well, I'll do it,

441
00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:43,600
which is, you know, very on
brand for me.

442
00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:47,560
Got to have, I've got to like, I
love layering like 20 million

443
00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:51,560
different jobs and just like
still being pretty underpaid.

444
00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:54,760
You know, it's, it's arts, arts
life.

445
00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:57,960
Art is life.
Yeah, so.

446
00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:01,200
I think so many wonderful things
have come about from, you know,

447
00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:06,280
motivated, good people who, who
look around at the landscape or,

448
00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:08,800
or the market or whatever and
say, there's there's a gap here,

449
00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:13,280
there's there's opportunity,
there's an opportunities, sorry,

450
00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:16,360
there's opportunities lacking
for, for people or, or

451
00:26:16,360 --> 00:26:18,480
something, something needs to go
here and they're able to

452
00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:19,920
envision it and bring it to
life.

453
00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:23,160
So I'm thrilled that it's it's
going so well for you and for

454
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:25,360
the communities.
Yeah, me too.

455
00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:29,240
And like, I think, yeah,
hopefully it just keeps on, you

456
00:26:29,240 --> 00:26:32,840
know, keeps on growing because
it's something that I'm really

457
00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:34,800
passionate about.
And I think like, it is also it

458
00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:38,160
does also stem from the fact
that it is hard as a trans

459
00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:42,200
person to be employed, you know,
in the current, you know,

460
00:26:42,360 --> 00:26:45,800
political climate.
And so, you know, making my own

461
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:50,400
jobs and roles and, you know,
getting to, you know, be paid

462
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:54,440
for them is is pretty huge.
So, yeah, I was like, please

463
00:26:54,440 --> 00:27:01,240
donate to my orcs.
Lovely listeners, but honestly,

464
00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:04,120
it is it's it's it's pretty,
it's pretty wonderful.

465
00:27:04,120 --> 00:27:07,240
And I think, you know, because
it is quite hard to, yeah, as I

466
00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:10,240
said, get a job both as a trans
person and also in the arts.

467
00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:14,040
So yeah, I was like, well, I'll
create them.

468
00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:16,920
It's.
It's one of the world's tricky

469
00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:18,120
Venn diagrams, I'm sure.
Oh.

470
00:27:18,360 --> 00:27:24,240
Oh, it is.
And you know, Ray, you continue

471
00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:28,880
to take on like more of a
leadership role nationally.

472
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:33,080
You're actually on the board of
Australian Poetry now.

473
00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:35,240
I, I know nothing about
Australian Poetry as an

474
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:37,840
organization.
I'm interested, you know, how do

475
00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:41,040
they function?
And you know, why do you think a

476
00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:44,360
a organization, a leadership
organization like Australian

477
00:27:44,360 --> 00:27:46,640
Poetry, is important in creative
fields?

478
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:49,360
Yeah, definitely.
Yeah.

479
00:27:49,360 --> 00:27:53,880
So Australian poetry is defined
as like the peak national body

480
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:59,080
for poetry in Australia.
So we do.

481
00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:01,400
We have the Australian Poetry
Journal as well as the

482
00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:04,920
anthology.
There's Best of Australian Poems

483
00:28:05,360 --> 00:28:07,600
is run through Australian Poetry
if.

484
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:08,720
I want to be.
A poem.

485
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:10,800
Do I need to?
Apply to them first.

486
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:17,760
I was like, yes.
And then you get a no, no, no.

487
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:21,120
I think you can subscribe to,
like, the newsletter.

488
00:28:21,120 --> 00:28:24,160
And there's also, like, the the
journal as well.

489
00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:28,120
But no, it's not like a stamp.
Well done.

490
00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:33,000
You're now an official poet.
Yeah.

491
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:35,440
Poetry license.
I mean, I might break that up in

492
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:37,120
a board meeting.
That could be kind of cool.

493
00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:41,400
Oh, no.
But yeah.

494
00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:46,080
So we do like a heap of stuff
once again, like an org that

495
00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:48,160
like, you know, does 20 million
different things.

496
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:51,400
Oh, and the An Elder Award has
run through Australian poetry.

497
00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:58,040
And yeah, I was invited to to be
on the board, which is really,

498
00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:00,680
you know, once again, like
really humbling to be, to be

499
00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:02,720
asked to, to do something like
that.

500
00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:08,440
Because I think like, you know,
leadership, like in creative

501
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:13,440
governance is, you know, so much
about, you know, shaping culture

502
00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:17,600
and like fostering, you know,
innovation and ensuring that

503
00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:22,000
there's, there's equality.
And like, when you know, someone

504
00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:26,160
who's trans, like myself is, is
part of that leadership, You

505
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:30,360
know, it helps to push
boundaries and, and challenge

506
00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:36,080
norms and create, you know, more
inclusive, you know, futures for

507
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:40,560
an organization.
And I think like also, you know,

508
00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:43,720
there's a lot of talk at
different, you know,

509
00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:48,040
organizations like especially
like on a corporate level about

510
00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:52,040
diversity and leadership.
And I think like, you know, a

511
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:55,200
lot of arts organizations, you
know, like Australian poetry are

512
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:57,920
actually, you know, fulfilling
that.

513
00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:02,480
And yeah, like hopefully as as
like a trans person on the

514
00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:09,960
board, like I'm hoping that, you
know, I can sort of encourage

515
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:16,400
like more, I guess, dynamic and
inclusive poetics and, you know,

516
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:20,960
help us like resonate with like
wider audiences that sort of

517
00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:24,120
reflect real world diversity.
Because, you know, you said that

518
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:26,280
you didn't know about them.
So like I'm like, well, that's,

519
00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:28,760
you know, how, you know, who are
we reaching?

520
00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:30,560
How are we reaching those
audiences?

521
00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:35,240
Yeah, that's that's my trans
people should be in leadership

522
00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:37,320
brands.
Yeah, yeah.

523
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:40,560
And it just sounds like, you
know, a natural extension of of

524
00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:42,760
your advocacy in in everything
you do.

525
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:47,800
So did were were you like
approached for that role or did

526
00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:49,240
you?
Yeah, that, that's.

527
00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:52,520
Funny, yeah, which is, yeah,
really lovely.

528
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:57,640
Like, and I think like a lot of
boards will advertise positions

529
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:02,880
to try and, you know, like get a
diverse range of applicants and

530
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:08,600
then others will, you know,
depending on what they need and

531
00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:11,240
you know what they're looking
for to make the board diverse,

532
00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:13,280
they'll reach out to certain
people.

533
00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:18,760
So yeah, it's it, Yeah, it was.
It was a very humbling to be

534
00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:20,920
approached.
And also, yeah, I think I've,

535
00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:25,880
I'm coming into my third, second
or third year on the board now.

536
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:28,280
So good times.
Very.

537
00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:32,000
Good.
Yeah, I'll bet, I'll bet, Ray, I

538
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:34,680
think we're ready for piece #2.
We went.

539
00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:37,440
With bated breath.
Amazing.

540
00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:45,960
I'm going to read this is Gender
Marker and it's a poem sort of

541
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:50,680
about gender markers and, and
names and stuff and changing

542
00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:56,800
those on official documentation
and the kind of the frustrating

543
00:31:56,800 --> 00:32:01,640
process of it all and how it's
kind of often quite old school.

544
00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:09,920
So this is called gender marker.
You fax the emailed, printed,

545
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:14,120
scanned copy of the copy of the
copy of the government form to

546
00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:16,840
the sun cracked machine on the
beach.

547
00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:21,040
The waves slap it up because
they love repetition.

548
00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:26,560
Tiny hermit crabs tinker across
the square plastic edges,

549
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:29,520
tickling the machine with their
claws.

550
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:36,720
It laughs, grey skins splitting
in fissures, choking out faxes

551
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:43,080
with guffaws, papers strewn
akimbo on the beach where X

552
00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:48,760
mucks the spot, X mucks the X
mucks the X mucks the X mucks

553
00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:52,360
the X.
In the end, it's all in the

554
00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:56,760
ocean, X's cruising waves, like
they own the joint.

555
00:32:57,560 --> 00:32:59,680
Because maybe they do in the
end.

556
00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:04,280
In the end, even the crabs slide
out with the tide.

557
00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:13,400
And for people looking at the,
the, the, the visual poem is

558
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:17,480
yeah.
Oh, we, we added some ASCII art.

559
00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:20,960
Love a love a little.
Bit well, it's just another,

560
00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:24,000
another, Yeah, another element
of why I really liked the

561
00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:27,120
collection because it's not just
the the words, it's the form.

562
00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:32,040
It's it's having fun, but I
could again, I like it when I

563
00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:35,520
can sense the writer of a
collection like enjoying

564
00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:38,880
themselves and having fun with
with all the different elements

565
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:42,400
there.
Oh, I I definitely enjoyed any

566
00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:45,600
time I write a poem, I enjoy it.
But like, I do enjoy including

567
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:48,880
those elements where, you know,
I'm like, look, if we're harking

568
00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:53,280
back to, you know, using faxes,
you know, like trying to, you

569
00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:57,480
know, talk about how gender
markers are outdated on forms,

570
00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:00,440
why not use some, some old
school ASCII art?

571
00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:04,640
Yeah, I do really love playing
around with form in poetry.

572
00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:09,560
Good stuff.
Now I want to dive into into the

573
00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:14,080
crab infested waters, maybe of
of the creative process.

574
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:21,679
I'm just curious, Ray, how do
you go from zero to 110 or or

575
00:34:21,679 --> 00:34:24,840
whatever it might be with
actually, you know, generating

576
00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:30,239
ideas and finalizing them into
something that could be included

577
00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:36,040
in a, a collection such as this?
Yeah, I feel like I work very

578
00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:37,639
fast.
It is definitely like zero to

579
00:34:37,679 --> 00:34:41,639
100.
I think it definitely depends on

580
00:34:41,639 --> 00:34:45,520
like the like the piece of work
that I'm formulating.

581
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:50,560
So like a Zine or a poem for
Zine might be kind of a bit more

582
00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:54,960
vibes based and I might bring
together, you know, some collage

583
00:34:54,960 --> 00:35:00,080
ideas and words and kind of see
where things kind of organically

584
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:03,400
might take me.
But, and sometimes that's the

585
00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:06,160
case for a poem as well, But
it's it's often different if I'm

586
00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:10,600
like approaching a poem, say for
a Commission or for a themed

587
00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:15,000
call out, something like that.
So I might, you know, jot down

588
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:18,760
some ideas and associations,
kind of like a bit of a mind map

589
00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:23,360
or a murder board kind of vibe.
I'm putting up a you.

590
00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:25,480
Know red strings connecting
different.

591
00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:25,960
Ideas.
Yeah, yeah.

592
00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:28,920
Yeah, yeah.
I do sometimes like think about

593
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:31,200
that and I'm like, is that just,
is that my brain when it's

594
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:33,840
having a poem?
Like I talk about having a poem

595
00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:36,840
because that's kind of that's
kind of what it is.

596
00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:39,120
It's like, you know, what are
all the elements?

597
00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:41,880
What do I, what's the meat of it
all?

598
00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:44,320
What do I want to say?
But also what are the the other

599
00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:49,200
kind of branches?
And like, yeah, that's kind of I

600
00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:53,520
feel like for for poems, that's
definitely how I work.

601
00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:59,800
And you know, there's I go to an
open mic pretty regularly called

602
00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:02,440
echoes from The Cave in, which
happens here in me engine.

603
00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:06,680
And we have what's called a 5
minute speed poetry round.

604
00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:11,840
So you get one, one or three
prompts and you have 5 minutes

605
00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:13,480
to write a poem and then perform
it.

606
00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:18,760
And that kind of, so that
definitely like often will will

607
00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:21,880
generate a new poem for me.
And it's that kind of that time

608
00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:26,480
limit.
The prompt maybe like, you know,

609
00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:30,120
something that's been bubbling
around in my head also is added

610
00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:34,600
to that.
So that's often definitely like

611
00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:36,720
another part of how I how I
work.

612
00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:43,160
And there's, I also go sometimes
to a writing group, let's say at

613
00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:46,040
the Museum of Brisbane, and it's
Nick Rustic writing group.

614
00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:50,680
So we'll write responses to
different artworks that are on

615
00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:55,160
display and that will also often
like generate, you know,

616
00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:58,240
something that I wasn't often
it's something that I wasn't

617
00:36:58,240 --> 00:37:01,560
expecting.
And I will, you know, blend the,

618
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:04,720
you know, the artwork or what,
you know, what I think that

619
00:37:04,720 --> 00:37:08,120
artwork might be trying to say
into other things that I'm

620
00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:11,080
wanting to say.
So it's 20 million different

621
00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:14,880
approaches.
Yeah, yeah, a, a, a larger,

622
00:37:15,240 --> 00:37:17,400
yeah, a larger toolkit, I
suppose.

623
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:21,280
Yes, yeah, 100%.
Because like, I feel like even

624
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:24,200
if I think that I am, you know,
feeling a bit dull and have

625
00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:28,320
writer's block, I can still, you
know, go right, I've got this,

626
00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:30,280
this one prompt and I've got 5
minutes.

627
00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:33,640
Let's go.
Yeah, and after a beer at the

628
00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:35,160
open mic, like.
Yeah.

629
00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:37,920
You're like, I'm a God.
I can clearly write anything.

630
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:39,720
We are feeling good.
Yeah.

631
00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:42,840
Who's the character?
Is it Felix?

632
00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:46,680
Felix the cat who has like the
bottomless bag or whatever?

633
00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:48,480
Oh yeah.
Maybe.

634
00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:50,440
Yeah.
Oh, I don't know.

635
00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:53,480
It's been a while.
But no, I do feel like it's my,

636
00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:55,960
like my, my poetry tool kit is
very TARDIS like.

637
00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:58,200
I think it's yeah.
Yeah, that's what I'm getting.

638
00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:00,880
At yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a
ton of a ton of stuff.

639
00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:04,200
And I think that's, you know,
like it's really, it's really

640
00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:05,760
good.
Like even if I'm writing to a

641
00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:10,160
theme and wanting to write maybe
like 5 poems to a a set theme,

642
00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:14,400
the the process is often like
multifaceted good.

643
00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:20,680
Stuff and you know, it's
definitely come across how you

644
00:38:20,720 --> 00:38:24,280
enjoy experimenting with with
form and, and I guess function

645
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:28,840
of, of poems.
Shastra Deyo mentioned that

646
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:34,520
you've been creating some what's
called twine poem in in itch dot

647
00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:38,320
IO and experimenting with like
simple game design.

648
00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:42,440
And I, I've taken a look at some
of your work here.

649
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:46,000
I played through, I think it was
called my first Queer Picnic,

650
00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:48,120
something like that.
Oh yes, yes, picnic.

651
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:50,520
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It was so charming.

652
00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:55,840
I loved the the little 8 bit
soundtrack and everything and it

653
00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:58,480
just, I don't know, it was just
a nice experience.

654
00:39:00,720 --> 00:39:03,960
So this this is introducing like
a new element, an element of

655
00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:07,520
almost like interactivity from
the the reader or player.

656
00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:11,800
How does that like change things
for poetry?

657
00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:15,760
How does it enhance and how,
what does that have to, to offer

658
00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:16,480
someone?
Yeah.

659
00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:21,520
Yeah, I think yeah, like as you
said, like I do so yeah, I have

660
00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:26,360
a twine poem and I have a number
of of bitsy, what I kind of call

661
00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:30,000
poem games.
And yeah, so there was stand up

662
00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:36,080
which that that was kind of I
made that.

663
00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:41,400
I think I made that like either
in a lockdown or like I can't

664
00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:45,040
remember, but like I kind of
just had a red hot go at using

665
00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:49,680
Bitsy and then that game kind of
took off and it's like won

666
00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:51,800
awards and stuff and like the
the engine.

667
00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:54,080
That you build them in is that.
Right.

668
00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:56,440
Yeah.
So Bitsy is like the that's the

669
00:39:56,440 --> 00:40:01,480
one for the little 8 bit guys,
and Twine is the the one for

670
00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:04,760
kind of like more hypertextual
storytelling.

671
00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:08,280
And that one was called How to
Haunt.

672
00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:14,360
And yeah, like I love kind of
both, both platforms because,

673
00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:18,000
you know, I love that.
You know, people, I guess, like

674
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:22,520
readers or in this case players
can kind of interact with the

675
00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:26,520
the games and the poetry and
sort of, you know, see poetry in

676
00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:29,640
a, in a different way.
So it's not just like, you know,

677
00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:32,400
because I'm, I'm both like a
like predominantly, I guess a

678
00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:34,160
page poet, but I'm also a stage
poet.

679
00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:37,960
Like I also perform.
And then this kind of adds like

680
00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:42,680
another kind of dynamic and you
know, when you're when like a

681
00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:46,640
player or reader is weaving
their way like through a story

682
00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:50,880
with a a character that they're
playing, it kind of adds like a

683
00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:56,000
a new interesting dynamic.
You know, it can feel like they

684
00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:59,960
may be in the the protagonist's
shoes a bit more like you said

685
00:40:59,960 --> 00:41:04,800
with queer Picnic And you know,
it can kind of because like a

686
00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:09,760
lot of my pieces talk about
transphobia and queer phobia.

687
00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:16,160
You know, it can be maybe like a
bit uncomfortable as a learning

688
00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:19,240
experience, but it can also
encourage players, I think to

689
00:41:19,240 --> 00:41:23,480
kind of sit with that discomfort
and also like experience, you

690
00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:26,760
know, joy and euphoria because
like all of my games kind of

691
00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:29,320
maybe apart from How to haunt,
that was real sad.

692
00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:35,000
But like, the Betsy games do
predominantly always have like

693
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:39,880
that kind of happy note of
euphoria and love and like, good

694
00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:42,560
vibes.
So it does, it does definitely

695
00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:49,440
end like add a different dynamic
to how I how I look at poems.

696
00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:52,320
And I really, really enjoy that
because, yeah, I do feel like

697
00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:55,840
they are like a lot of people
call them, you know, games or

698
00:41:55,840 --> 00:41:57,840
call me a game developer or
something.

699
00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:00,880
I love that.
To be honest.

700
00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:03,800
I feel like I'm just a poet
making poems on a different

701
00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:10,360
platform.
It's I was going to say, yeah,

702
00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:13,240
it, it certainly creates a new
dimension when you create

703
00:42:13,240 --> 00:42:17,520
something that people can, so to
speak, like walk around in.

704
00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:20,440
And, and like I said, there is
the element of agency, whether

705
00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:24,320
it's, you know, you're you're
deciding to continue talking to

706
00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:30,040
a character who's expositing to
you or you're, you're deciding,

707
00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:33,120
I mean, even even seeing if you
can like break some of these

708
00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:35,600
games and be like, what happens
if I walk backwards or whatever,

709
00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:37,640
like even.
That yeah, I'll go for like.

710
00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:39,640
Even that is an expression of
creativity.

711
00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:43,040
Yeah.
And as someone who's like for

712
00:42:43,040 --> 00:42:46,600
me, who's as someone who's loved
video games ever since I, one of

713
00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:51,440
my earliest memories is watching
my dad, you know, fight Robo

714
00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:54,680
Hitler in Wolfenstein 3D on his
on his work laptop.

715
00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:58,800
You know, I feel like this, this
discussion about like our games,

716
00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:00,840
art and this thing has been
going on forever.

717
00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:04,880
And, and like, you know, yes,
they are.

718
00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:08,840
I mean, they don't, they don't
have to be like there is nothing

719
00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:13,120
wrong with with a, a visceral,
you know, jumping on Fortnite

720
00:43:13,120 --> 00:43:14,920
with your mates, right.
But you're, you're not

721
00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:17,280
necessarily going to find much
poetry content there.

722
00:43:17,280 --> 00:43:20,600
But I'll tell you what, the
indie scene, I mean, I still, I

723
00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:24,280
still remember playing in high
school like Braid, the puzzle

724
00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:27,280
game for the first time and
going to my English teacher and

725
00:43:27,280 --> 00:43:29,760
being like, there's, there's
these books that you can read in

726
00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:33,400
this game and they've got like
this, this bizarre, like almost

727
00:43:33,400 --> 00:43:35,440
mythic story that they're
telling.

728
00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:39,040
What do you think of this or, or
you know, people are talking

729
00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:44,280
about this game at the moment,
clear Obscura and, and you know,

730
00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:48,160
saying that it has such a, an
interesting, you know,

731
00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:52,440
overarching story to tell about
like mortality and, and stuff

732
00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:54,800
like this.
And you know, I mean, we can, we

733
00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:58,040
can get a bit cross eyed after a
while and it all becomes a bit,

734
00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:01,240
a bit wanky.
But I do think that there's,

735
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:04,360
there's incredible potential
there, but you, you're just not

736
00:44:04,360 --> 00:44:06,280
going to find it everywhere.
And you don't need to find it

737
00:44:06,280 --> 00:44:08,640
everywhere.
We don't need to to turn like

738
00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:12,120
every interactive experience
into poetry, But when they do, I

739
00:44:12,120 --> 00:44:15,240
think it's great.
Yeah, I was like, how dare you?

740
00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:20,000
I turn every experience.
No, but like, I, I, I agree.

741
00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:23,760
Like I think and I think like,
you know, like I would even, you

742
00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:25,680
know, like some of the games
they make, I'm like, is this a

743
00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:26,960
game?
Is this an art piece?

744
00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:30,560
Is it who cares?
Like, you know, and like, as you

745
00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:33,040
said, like we can, you know,
people often don't think that

746
00:44:33,040 --> 00:44:35,960
games are art.
And like, I love to to kind of

747
00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:38,760
like turn that on its head
because like a lot of my poems,

748
00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:44,760
what I call it crustic poetry,
but they're about games and you

749
00:44:44,760 --> 00:44:47,080
know, people are like, oh, but
that's not true at crisis.

750
00:44:47,080 --> 00:44:50,680
Like that's not true poetry
drawing from art.

751
00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:55,000
And I heavily disagree.
Like I, I love writing poetry,

752
00:44:55,240 --> 00:44:58,720
especially about like Pokémon
and Animal Crossing, because you

753
00:44:58,720 --> 00:45:00,960
know, I think like, you know,
people like, oh, you know, it's

754
00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:04,120
silly little, you know, kids
games kind of things.

755
00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:08,920
I'm like, no, like, what if I,
you know, draw on those sources

756
00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:11,720
and, and like, play with them
and dismantle them and like,

757
00:45:11,720 --> 00:45:15,120
engage with them and create,
create poetry.

758
00:45:15,120 --> 00:45:18,080
Like, I think, yeah, I think
games are amazing.

759
00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:20,280
Yeah, I have.
I have a lot of feelings.

760
00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:22,800
Yeah.
And look, every now and then we

761
00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:26,840
do see some of this stuff leak
into the mainstream.

762
00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:30,400
I mean, you know, and again,
again, it seems to be something

763
00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:33,680
that that is maybe of a, a
bygone generation or era.

764
00:45:33,680 --> 00:45:36,240
And hopefully it comes back
because, you know, you you start

765
00:45:36,240 --> 00:45:40,200
putting ideas about like agency
and radical individualism into

766
00:45:40,200 --> 00:45:44,320
like Bioshock, for example.
But then, you know, they have to

767
00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:46,720
strip that back for the sequel
because otherwise it's not going

768
00:45:46,720 --> 00:45:48,360
to sell.
Like there's this constant thing

769
00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:52,240
of like, games are so expensive
that they can't always, I guess,

770
00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:54,520
bring to life all the ideas they
may want to.

771
00:45:55,880 --> 00:45:57,520
Yeah.
And it's really, I think like a

772
00:45:57,520 --> 00:46:04,720
lot of games are like, you know,
becoming more like diverse and

773
00:46:04,720 --> 00:46:06,920
like kind of, you know, putting,
putting those elements in.

774
00:46:06,920 --> 00:46:10,400
And then like there's, you know,
there's a lot of backlash.

775
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:14,520
But then, you know, because it's
often like the controversy means

776
00:46:14,520 --> 00:46:16,920
that there's increased sales and
there's sometimes it means

777
00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:19,800
there's decreased sales.
And it's almost like, you know,

778
00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:24,240
like book banning and stuff
where, you know, like there's

779
00:46:24,240 --> 00:46:28,360
often a backlash against, you
know, a lot of books by, by

780
00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:32,400
strange diverse authors and, you
know, LGBTQIA plus authors.

781
00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:36,480
And it's just, yeah, it's, it's
a whole thing.

782
00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:40,760
And that's the other thing like,
you know, is, is the community,

783
00:46:41,040 --> 00:46:43,480
Yeah.
Ready to engage respectfully in

784
00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:45,880
conversation.
I mean, I think, I think, you

785
00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:48,280
know, when we talk about like
toxic gaming culture, I think it

786
00:46:48,280 --> 00:46:51,440
is a small space.
But when you see that space, I

787
00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:55,000
mean, you know, Last of Us
season 2 is on at the moment.

788
00:46:55,000 --> 00:47:01,520
And it's so bizarre to see this
discourse play out five years

789
00:47:01,520 --> 00:47:03,520
later after the game was
released.

790
00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:06,640
And it's, it's just as bad.
And now they, they have an

791
00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:09,720
actual, well, I mean, back then
they had an actual, you know,

792
00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:12,040
voice actor to be a lightning
rod of all this hate.

793
00:47:12,360 --> 00:47:15,360
But now, like, you know, the,
the, the type of vitriol that

794
00:47:15,360 --> 00:47:18,000
like Bella Ramsey is copping at
the moment, like it's

795
00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:20,160
disgusting.
You just got to we.

796
00:47:20,280 --> 00:47:22,680
We've got to stop.
Yeah, I was.

797
00:47:22,680 --> 00:47:24,240
I was like, yeah, that's
basically it.

798
00:47:24,240 --> 00:47:29,080
Like just yeah, I think yeah,
there is.

799
00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:32,080
And I think there is so much
hate out there and like, you

800
00:47:32,080 --> 00:47:36,440
know, we're seeing it, you know,
play out, you know, in politics

801
00:47:36,440 --> 00:47:41,000
and having, you know, so many
marginalized people being used

802
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:43,000
as like, you know, political
footballs.

803
00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:46,520
And it's just like, we could
not.

804
00:47:47,360 --> 00:47:49,360
That would be great.
And I think like, that's why

805
00:47:49,680 --> 00:47:54,640
like so much of my, my, my work
is, is like community focused

806
00:47:54,640 --> 00:47:57,080
and stuff because I'm like, I
don't know how to cope with

807
00:47:57,080 --> 00:48:01,360
this, you know, is, is this the
solution?

808
00:48:02,120 --> 00:48:07,480
You know, is that kind of, you
know, community focus and

809
00:48:07,480 --> 00:48:09,920
pushing against, you know,
pushing back against that kind

810
00:48:09,920 --> 00:48:16,200
of, you know, hierarchical
political kind of vibe is, you

811
00:48:16,200 --> 00:48:21,440
know, is that the the key
hopefully makes me feel less

812
00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:24,320
crap.
Yeah, I'll, I'll make one more

813
00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:27,840
point on this in that I think
it's also a shame because, and

814
00:48:27,840 --> 00:48:32,120
let me know if you agree.
I think gaming culture and maybe

815
00:48:32,120 --> 00:48:35,560
like nerd culture and things
adjacent to that, you know, I

816
00:48:35,560 --> 00:48:39,600
think in general they've kind of
been seen as a, as a haven for

817
00:48:39,600 --> 00:48:43,640
people, you know, in in minority
groups, let's say, you know, as

818
00:48:43,640 --> 00:48:49,320
a place that is safe to to, to
play and to, to experience and,

819
00:48:49,320 --> 00:48:52,480
and, and, and whatever.
And I think, yeah, these these

820
00:48:52,480 --> 00:48:57,400
kind of, like I said, these kind
of toxic pockets that that pop

821
00:48:57,400 --> 00:48:58,880
up.
I think it can be really, really

822
00:48:58,880 --> 00:48:59,800
damaging.
Yeah.

823
00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:03,320
It can.
And I think like, yeah, like my

824
00:49:03,320 --> 00:49:09,120
partner is part of like the
TTRPG scene and like creates a

825
00:49:09,120 --> 00:49:12,880
lot of games.
And like, you know, I think

826
00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:16,800
that, you know, she experiences
like, you know, such a

827
00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:18,520
beautiful, like there's such a
beautiful community.

828
00:49:18,520 --> 00:49:21,160
There's a lot of like
collaboration, especially when

829
00:49:21,160 --> 00:49:22,760
it comes to indie games and
stuff.

830
00:49:23,080 --> 00:49:25,480
And then there are, yeah, like,
as you said, like a lot of a lot

831
00:49:25,480 --> 00:49:29,320
of different pockets that that
aren't so great.

832
00:49:30,200 --> 00:49:33,520
And I got to say, like when I go
to to events and stuff with her,

833
00:49:33,760 --> 00:49:37,240
it's incredible to see the
amount of, you know, people like

834
00:49:37,240 --> 00:49:39,960
me there.
So I think it is, you know,

835
00:49:40,760 --> 00:49:46,080
becoming more of a space like
especially indie games, it's

836
00:49:46,080 --> 00:49:50,040
becoming like a space for for
queers, by queers because, you

837
00:49:50,040 --> 00:49:52,080
know, we're the people creating
those games.

838
00:49:54,840 --> 00:49:59,000
So I guess at the end what I'm
asking is the Queer Picnic 2

839
00:49:59,000 --> 00:50:00,200
Electric Boogaloo.
Question.

840
00:50:00,640 --> 00:50:03,840
Question mark.
Yeah, it's, it's weird.

841
00:50:03,840 --> 00:50:07,360
I usually like there's a it's
usually like around winter where

842
00:50:07,360 --> 00:50:10,760
I get like I I somehow like just
get into the mood to create a

843
00:50:10,760 --> 00:50:15,480
new bitsy game look, maybe a.
Queer bonfire.

844
00:50:16,320 --> 00:50:17,240
Queer.
Oh yeah.

845
00:50:17,240 --> 00:50:19,760
Oh, could you look at, oh, I
mean, I guess queer picnic was

846
00:50:19,760 --> 00:50:23,520
kind of a queer potluck.
Maybe I should like go on social

847
00:50:23,520 --> 00:50:27,120
media and be like what should I
create a my next gay game about?

848
00:50:27,360 --> 00:50:30,680
Yeah, yeah.
See what people want because it

849
00:50:30,680 --> 00:50:33,600
is one of those things where
like from from the poem that I

850
00:50:33,600 --> 00:50:36,760
write to like the game I create.
It's honestly like a matter of

851
00:50:36,760 --> 00:50:38,960
days.
Like it's I just kind of go

852
00:50:38,960 --> 00:50:41,880
hard.
Would not recommend.

853
00:50:41,880 --> 00:50:47,720
Yeah, please rest everyone.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

854
00:50:47,720 --> 00:50:50,720
You need, you need your own
quality control people or, or

855
00:50:50,720 --> 00:50:52,440
whatever.
That's I think that's half the

856
00:50:52,440 --> 00:50:54,960
job sometimes.
Yeah.

857
00:50:56,200 --> 00:50:59,520
Very good Ray.
I want to talk about your latest

858
00:50:59,520 --> 00:51:00,880
release now, which is very
exciting.

859
00:51:02,320 --> 00:51:04,640
Excuse me, you've you've
branched out to writing for

860
00:51:04,640 --> 00:51:08,360
children with your debut
children's book All the Colours

861
00:51:08,360 --> 00:51:09,800
of the Rainbow.
There it is.

862
00:51:11,200 --> 00:51:14,560
What inspired you to write for a
younger audience and, and you

863
00:51:14,960 --> 00:51:18,280
know, what impact do you hope
that this book has for for those

864
00:51:18,280 --> 00:51:20,480
that explore it?
Yeah.

865
00:51:21,480 --> 00:51:28,200
So yeah, I think I was at Pride,
I think it was about 2022, and I

866
00:51:28,200 --> 00:51:30,880
was marching with people from my
queer book group because of

867
00:51:30,880 --> 00:51:32,120
course, I go to a queer book
group.

868
00:51:33,680 --> 00:51:36,480
And it was, it wasn't my first
Pride, but it was one of the

869
00:51:36,480 --> 00:51:38,800
first times where I was like, oh
God, I can see all these

870
00:51:38,800 --> 00:51:42,440
beautiful rainbow families.
And my friends were, you know,

871
00:51:42,440 --> 00:51:44,280
some of those beautiful rainbow
families.

872
00:51:44,280 --> 00:51:48,600
And yeah, it was just, you know,
amazing to watch.

873
00:51:48,600 --> 00:51:52,240
And I thought, oh, I, I really
want to write, you know, a book

874
00:51:52,240 --> 00:51:56,120
for, for young people, you know,
and the, and the like the young

875
00:51:56,120 --> 00:52:00,720
people that I can, you know, can
see and that are in my, my life

876
00:52:00,720 --> 00:52:06,320
at the moment.
And I think, you know, it also

877
00:52:06,520 --> 00:52:12,560
was a thing because I saw so few
books, you know, when I was

878
00:52:12,560 --> 00:52:16,320
growing up that explored, you
know, gender and identity.

879
00:52:16,760 --> 00:52:20,120
And I think, you know, it's
beautiful to see so many books,

880
00:52:20,120 --> 00:52:22,720
especially, you know, kids
picture books that are out at

881
00:52:22,720 --> 00:52:25,520
the moment that celebrate
diversity.

882
00:52:27,360 --> 00:52:31,800
So yeah, that definitely like
both those things really like

883
00:52:32,280 --> 00:52:34,920
made an impact and made me wanna
to branch out.

884
00:52:35,880 --> 00:52:41,000
And also, you know, writing a
kids book is kind of mildly

885
00:52:41,000 --> 00:52:44,480
similar to poetry and that
there's that kind of distilling

886
00:52:44,920 --> 00:52:49,120
of language, you know, you're
looking at very succinct, you

887
00:52:49,120 --> 00:52:51,760
know, language choice.
And it's kind of like almost

888
00:52:51,760 --> 00:52:54,440
like writing just one big long
poem within reason.

889
00:52:55,600 --> 00:53:00,960
Spoiler alert.
But yeah, I think you said asked

890
00:53:01,800 --> 00:53:04,400
what I hope to like comes from
it.

891
00:53:05,840 --> 00:53:08,440
I think like I hope that yeah,
all the colours of the rainbow

892
00:53:08,440 --> 00:53:13,280
kind of encourages young people
and and readers of all ages to

893
00:53:13,280 --> 00:53:16,480
be honest, to kind of embrace,
you know, their identity with

894
00:53:16,680 --> 00:53:19,960
with confidence and with
compassion.

895
00:53:20,240 --> 00:53:25,000
Because like the main character
gem in the book, their journey

896
00:53:25,000 --> 00:53:30,400
kind of highlights that it's OK
to explore identity beyond like

897
00:53:30,400 --> 00:53:32,920
as we were talking about before,
like, you know, the traditional

898
00:53:33,200 --> 00:53:36,800
societal expectations.
So I really hope the book sort

899
00:53:36,800 --> 00:53:39,600
of empowers readers and
reassures them that, you know,

900
00:53:39,600 --> 00:53:43,960
they're not alone in wanting to
kind of, you know, dismantle

901
00:53:45,280 --> 00:53:48,840
society's expectations of gender
and have a bit of an explorer.

902
00:53:49,920 --> 00:53:54,000
And I think hopefully parents
and guardians and teachers as

903
00:53:54,000 --> 00:53:58,960
well can kind of use it as a
starting off point to, you know,

904
00:53:58,960 --> 00:54:05,520
explore diversity and acceptance
and sort of create and encourage

905
00:54:05,520 --> 00:54:07,760
open discussions and that kind
of thing.

906
00:54:07,760 --> 00:54:10,680
So, yeah, it's sort of it is one
of those things if, you know,

907
00:54:10,720 --> 00:54:14,440
you can't be what you can't see.
And I think young people seeing

908
00:54:14,440 --> 00:54:19,880
themselves in this story, yeah,
will hopefully give them the

909
00:54:19,880 --> 00:54:23,080
space to kind of express their
identities and, and ask

910
00:54:23,080 --> 00:54:26,760
questions.
Very good, very good.

911
00:54:26,760 --> 00:54:33,400
No, it's it's another good read.
I'm wondering, you know, if I

912
00:54:33,400 --> 00:54:37,720
was to play devil's advocate for
a bit, like, what would you say

913
00:54:37,720 --> 00:54:41,440
to someone who, you know, what
would you say to an adult who,

914
00:54:41,440 --> 00:54:46,680
who sees this book on the shelf
and feels, feels a bit anxious,

915
00:54:46,680 --> 00:54:49,600
you know, and they feel a bit
anxious because they go, oh, I

916
00:54:49,600 --> 00:54:53,440
don't know how I feel about
like, you know, children

917
00:54:53,440 --> 00:54:57,200
necessarily, you know, engaging
with these kind of ideas.

918
00:54:57,240 --> 00:55:00,440
Like, I think this is an anxiety
for some people, you know?

919
00:55:00,920 --> 00:55:03,720
You you come across this.
What would you say to to someone

920
00:55:03,720 --> 00:55:05,920
who's who's seeking that and
going, oh, I don't know.

921
00:55:06,320 --> 00:55:08,360
I like, I don't know, Ray, what,
what's going on here?

922
00:55:09,280 --> 00:55:11,000
Yeah.
And I think like that is

923
00:55:11,000 --> 00:55:13,600
definitely like, and that's
something that, you know, often,

924
00:55:14,360 --> 00:55:16,280
like, you know, I mentioned
before book banning, it's like

925
00:55:16,280 --> 00:55:20,680
that's often that kind of like
anxiety is where that kind of

926
00:55:20,680 --> 00:55:24,320
like, you know, the, you know,
book bannings, like especially

927
00:55:24,320 --> 00:55:26,520
if like books for young people
kind of comes from.

928
00:55:27,360 --> 00:55:32,760
And it is that anxiety of, you
know, I feel like a lot of it

929
00:55:32,760 --> 00:55:39,640
is, is deep seated like kind of
rooted anxiety of adults, you

930
00:55:39,640 --> 00:55:43,920
know, not growing up and being
given those same kind of chances

931
00:55:43,920 --> 00:55:50,000
to reflect on their gender,
their own experiences and that

932
00:55:50,000 --> 00:55:51,920
kind of thing.
Like they, they haven't been

933
00:55:51,920 --> 00:55:56,200
given that opportunity to to be
empathetic towards themselves

934
00:55:56,240 --> 00:55:59,960
and kind of explore identity,
even if it's just something as

935
00:55:59,960 --> 00:56:06,120
simple as like, you know, a
father wearing like a pink or

936
00:56:06,120 --> 00:56:08,320
purple shirt or something, you
know, something that's like

937
00:56:08,320 --> 00:56:10,640
considered girly.
Like, you know, there's so

938
00:56:10,680 --> 00:56:15,120
there's so much like deep seated
anxiety around around gender and

939
00:56:15,120 --> 00:56:18,400
expression and what, you know,
makes a good man, what makes a

940
00:56:18,400 --> 00:56:20,440
good woman, what makes a good
mother and father.

941
00:56:20,760 --> 00:56:25,680
And like, you know, queer
families are out here like, you

942
00:56:25,680 --> 00:56:28,320
know, doing the hard work and
like pushing back against that.

943
00:56:28,320 --> 00:56:33,680
And I think like, hopefully,
like if someone is concerned,

944
00:56:34,440 --> 00:56:39,000
you know, about a book, you
know, like this being shown to

945
00:56:39,000 --> 00:56:42,440
young people, like, you know, I,
I definitely encourage them to,

946
00:56:42,440 --> 00:56:47,040
to like, to read it and to think
about like their own experiences

947
00:56:47,040 --> 00:56:51,720
with gender, you know, their
own, you know, perspectives and

948
00:56:51,720 --> 00:56:55,640
like, you know, what was their
journey growing up, you know,

949
00:56:55,640 --> 00:56:58,600
and how they can kind of look at
their own gender.

950
00:56:58,600 --> 00:57:02,960
And then, you know, from that
point, kind of, you know, like

951
00:57:03,240 --> 00:57:07,080
what they're wanting for the
young people in their life, you

952
00:57:07,080 --> 00:57:11,360
know, if they're, you know,
wanting them to be more maybe

953
00:57:11,360 --> 00:57:14,760
expensive about their
perspectives, even if that

954
00:57:14,760 --> 00:57:19,440
wasn't something that they grew
up, you know, looking at.

955
00:57:19,440 --> 00:57:24,280
So yeah, it's, it's it's not
something that I've had a lot of

956
00:57:24,280 --> 00:57:27,760
people be too concerned about to
my face.

957
00:57:27,760 --> 00:57:32,120
But I think like it's some, it
is something that I hope like,

958
00:57:32,520 --> 00:57:37,840
you know, an adult can, yeah,
look at like the book and, you

959
00:57:37,840 --> 00:57:41,120
know, what it's trying to say
and also their own identity

960
00:57:41,120 --> 00:57:45,200
with, you know, with compassion.
Yeah, no, really well said.

961
00:57:45,280 --> 00:57:49,800
And I think you know, the, the
least you can do is if, if you

962
00:57:49,800 --> 00:57:52,640
know, if you're not sure about
something, it's to actually read

963
00:57:52,640 --> 00:57:53,880
it and to think critically.
Yeah.

964
00:57:55,320 --> 00:57:58,920
And, you know, it's, it's it's,
it's a quick read for for an

965
00:57:58,920 --> 00:58:00,320
adult, I mean, it's a quick
read.

966
00:58:00,640 --> 00:58:02,760
The pictures are nice.
So you know what, what, what

967
00:58:02,760 --> 00:58:03,680
have you got to lose?
Kind of.

968
00:58:04,040 --> 00:58:06,520
Thing exactly.
And like, if it's not the book,

969
00:58:06,520 --> 00:58:08,640
you know, there might be like
another book out there that's

970
00:58:08,640 --> 00:58:13,600
like, you know, expressing what
you know, you want to you know,

971
00:58:13,640 --> 00:58:17,680
to to give to your to your young
person in your life.

972
00:58:17,680 --> 00:58:23,440
You know, so there's a lot of
nice and lovely, like gender

973
00:58:23,440 --> 00:58:27,640
diverse and like, yeah, like
identity centric kind of books

974
00:58:27,640 --> 00:58:29,920
out there that are really,
really beautiful.

975
00:58:29,920 --> 00:58:31,120
Good.
Stuff.

976
00:58:31,360 --> 00:58:32,480
Well, here's another one.
Hey.

977
00:58:33,560 --> 00:58:34,760
Yeah, I was like, here's another
one.

978
00:58:34,760 --> 00:58:35,920
Yeah.
There you go.

979
00:58:35,920 --> 00:58:36,960
Please buy it.
Thank you.

980
00:58:38,080 --> 00:58:40,680
What's So what's next for you,
Ray?

981
00:58:40,680 --> 00:58:43,680
What's what's kind of coming up
for the the rest of 2025?

982
00:58:45,800 --> 00:58:49,640
Gosh, yeah, I think pretty much
like I know my whereabouts up

983
00:58:49,640 --> 00:58:53,080
until like July.
Beyond that, who knows?

984
00:58:54,960 --> 00:58:56,640
I do.
It is one of those things where

985
00:58:56,640 --> 00:58:59,400
like often because you get
booked like maybe a couple of

986
00:58:59,400 --> 00:59:01,360
months in advance for gigs, but
that's about it.

987
00:59:01,360 --> 00:59:02,960
You're like, what does the year
hold?

988
00:59:04,560 --> 00:59:08,400
So yeah, I'm doing Hewlett
Festival, I'm doing the opening

989
00:59:08,400 --> 00:59:15,360
galore on the 20th of June and
that's in in and that'll be,

990
00:59:15,360 --> 00:59:18,440
that'll be absolutely amazing.
I'm really looking for Qlit.

991
00:59:18,560 --> 00:59:20,280
I'm looking forward to Qlit
Festival.

992
00:59:21,000 --> 00:59:23,720
I think that runs for about
7:00-ish days.

993
00:59:25,320 --> 00:59:32,440
And I'm also in a anthology
called Effable, which is a

994
00:59:33,560 --> 00:59:37,160
queer, kinky, disabled poetry
anthology.

995
00:59:37,400 --> 00:59:42,240
And that one's being put out in
the UK through 14 Poems.

996
00:59:42,840 --> 00:59:50,720
And there's a launch for that on
the 13th of July at 7:00 PM BST,

997
00:59:50,720 --> 00:59:55,640
which I think works out to be
some ungodly hour of the morning

998
00:59:56,760 --> 00:59:58,600
for Aussies.
But if you want to get up for

999
00:59:58,600 --> 01:00:03,200
it, I'm not going to, it's like
it's like 4-3 or 4:00 AM.

1000
01:00:03,200 --> 01:00:05,480
And I was like, I'm going to pre
record myself.

1001
01:00:05,480 --> 01:00:07,800
So I am doing it.
Yeah, I am doing it.

1002
01:00:07,800 --> 01:00:12,320
But it's it's, it's like a.
It's I, I will actually be

1003
01:00:12,320 --> 01:00:13,920
asleep.
It'll be a pre recorded thing.

1004
01:00:14,480 --> 01:00:15,680
So I think that's what's coming
up.

1005
01:00:16,720 --> 01:00:23,840
I've also recently joined the
team on transmission, which is a

1006
01:00:24,320 --> 01:00:29,440
show on four Triple Z, our
community radio station here for

1007
01:00:29,800 --> 01:00:34,760
trans and gender diverse people.
So I'll be on the radio a couple

1008
01:00:34,760 --> 01:00:38,320
of times every month.
So, you know, love to add

1009
01:00:38,320 --> 01:00:41,160
another job to my list, but I'm
really excited about that.

1010
01:00:41,160 --> 01:00:45,720
So yeah.
So, so far, that's that's the

1011
01:00:45,720 --> 01:00:48,320
month of June and July.
Good stuff.

1012
01:00:48,320 --> 01:00:53,320
Ray is on the airwaves.
Very good.

1013
01:00:54,120 --> 01:00:57,880
We now turn our attention, Ray,
to the the overarching analogy

1014
01:00:57,880 --> 01:01:00,840
that we've been using for Season
2, which is that if your

1015
01:01:00,840 --> 01:01:05,520
creative work was an instrument
in an orchestra, what instrument

1016
01:01:05,520 --> 01:01:09,480
do you think it would be?
Yeah, I'm not, I'm like not a

1017
01:01:09,480 --> 01:01:13,240
super music.
Like I don't know a lot about

1018
01:01:13,240 --> 01:01:18,880
orchestras.
So I did do a bit of research I

1019
01:01:18,880 --> 01:01:23,280
think because as we've spoken
about like I'm quite a community

1020
01:01:23,280 --> 01:01:25,320
oriented person.
So I was trying to think of like

1021
01:01:26,240 --> 01:01:30,000
an instrument that's like both
significant kind of in its own

1022
01:01:30,000 --> 01:01:33,680
right, but also like helps tie
an orchestra together.

1023
01:01:35,040 --> 01:01:39,680
And so I thought maybe the
cello, because it has kind of,

1024
01:01:40,520 --> 01:01:44,840
it has like kind of rich tones
and provides sort of depths and

1025
01:01:44,840 --> 01:01:51,080
support to the orchestra.
And it often shares melodies

1026
01:01:51,080 --> 01:01:53,480
with like, you know, both low
and high instruments.

1027
01:01:53,480 --> 01:01:57,520
But it also acts as like a
bridge between sections as well,

1028
01:01:57,560 --> 01:01:59,120
says me, who's never played the
cello.

1029
01:01:59,240 --> 01:02:01,400
But I now know more about it
than I ever wanted to.

1030
01:02:01,400 --> 01:02:04,120
I was like, thank you.
I appreciate it.

1031
01:02:08,360 --> 01:02:10,560
That's I love a deep dive.
I love a deep dive, yeah.

1032
01:02:12,040 --> 01:02:13,400
For sure.
You're, you're not the first

1033
01:02:13,400 --> 01:02:15,880
cellist in our little orchestra
here.

1034
01:02:16,200 --> 01:02:20,640
And I I think I said to whoever
it was, I can't remember who

1035
01:02:20,640 --> 01:02:23,120
picked the cello.
It's one of the few instruments

1036
01:02:23,120 --> 01:02:25,280
that you can book a seat for on
a plane.

1037
01:02:27,280 --> 01:02:29,280
Yeah.
Oh I feel like you should be

1038
01:02:29,280 --> 01:02:31,200
able to book a seat, but you
shouldn't have to pay for it.

1039
01:02:31,600 --> 01:02:34,000
But that's just yeah, I don't, I
don't know about that.

1040
01:02:34,200 --> 01:02:36,520
I don't know if there's AI,
don't know if there's a, you

1041
01:02:36,520 --> 01:02:39,960
know, there's a a flight out
there that's just cellos, you

1042
01:02:40,000 --> 01:02:41,800
know, no people at all.
It's.

1043
01:02:41,840 --> 01:02:44,240
Just that's a poem.
Yeah.

1044
01:02:44,240 --> 01:02:47,080
Just imagine all like this, this
silent flight with all these

1045
01:02:47,080 --> 01:02:48,720
cellos.
That'd be wild.

1046
01:02:48,720 --> 01:02:51,240
They wouldn't they, they would
just maybe if they hit

1047
01:02:51,240 --> 01:02:52,840
turbulence, they would play like
notes.

1048
01:02:52,840 --> 01:02:55,560
I'd be like, you know, they.
'D just yeah, they'd make a bit

1049
01:02:55,560 --> 01:02:57,440
of noise.
I really like that as a poem.

1050
01:02:57,440 --> 01:03:00,880
That's really great.
Like just a a plane made-up

1051
01:03:00,880 --> 01:03:04,120
entirely of instruments anyway.
And they would still get, you

1052
01:03:04,120 --> 01:03:06,920
know, they would, they would be
first class cellos, you know,

1053
01:03:07,240 --> 01:03:09,800
and they would, they would still
get aisle service.

1054
01:03:09,840 --> 01:03:11,600
You know, all the regular stuff
would happen.

1055
01:03:11,600 --> 01:03:13,080
Maybe they would recline some of
them.

1056
01:03:13,520 --> 01:03:16,560
You know one of them there's
there's a tiny little baby cello

1057
01:03:16,560 --> 01:03:20,680
that's screaming the whole way.
God, every flight, honestly.

1058
01:03:22,760 --> 01:03:25,480
Oh, I say that like it must be
awful.

1059
01:03:25,480 --> 01:03:27,320
Like I was that crying child
once.

1060
01:03:27,320 --> 01:03:30,600
Like I was a very young flyer.
Like as soon as I was like born,

1061
01:03:30,600 --> 01:03:33,800
I was basically being on planes
and like, I was that I was that

1062
01:03:33,800 --> 01:03:36,000
baby crying.
Like I have sympathy.

1063
01:03:36,960 --> 01:03:39,800
Very good, Ray the cellist.
I like it.

1064
01:03:41,320 --> 01:03:44,680
We now head to the segment
shamelessly ripped off Diary of

1065
01:03:44,680 --> 01:03:50,080
a CEOAKA Diary of a POET.
You have been left a question

1066
01:03:50,080 --> 01:03:53,080
from my previous guest.
So this question comes to us

1067
01:03:53,080 --> 01:03:59,080
from Nikki Vivica, who asks what
is an unusual dream you've had

1068
01:03:59,440 --> 01:04:05,240
and how did it impact your work?
Yeah, I had to really think

1069
01:04:05,240 --> 01:04:07,760
about this because I definitely
feel like a lot of my poems are

1070
01:04:07,760 --> 01:04:11,360
very like they do often follow a
bit of dream logic and have a

1071
01:04:11,360 --> 01:04:17,360
bit of like, you know, spec fit
kind of weird elements to them.

1072
01:04:18,400 --> 01:04:25,200
I think the most like memorable
dream was I had a dream that my

1073
01:04:25,200 --> 01:04:28,320
friend, he was in hospital.
He was in hospital for a very

1074
01:04:28,320 --> 01:04:30,920
long time and is, you know,
doing a lot better.

1075
01:04:32,200 --> 01:04:35,840
But he, yeah, he was in hospital
for a while.

1076
01:04:35,840 --> 01:04:40,320
And I had a lot of like, you
know, feverish stress dreams

1077
01:04:40,320 --> 01:04:43,680
about him.
And one of the dreams was pretty

1078
01:04:43,680 --> 01:04:45,600
funny.
It was about how he became a

1079
01:04:45,600 --> 01:04:51,200
piece of IKEA furniture.
And, you know, like, in this

1080
01:04:51,200 --> 01:04:54,920
dream, I was able to like, kind
of like, rebuild and remake him.

1081
01:04:54,920 --> 01:04:57,840
Like it was obviously, you know,
me having a lot of feelings

1082
01:04:57,840 --> 01:05:01,760
about, you know, wanting to to,
you know, see him better.

1083
01:05:02,960 --> 01:05:08,440
And so that that dream became
the poem gut punch in exactly as

1084
01:05:08,440 --> 01:05:13,960
I am, which is actually like
quite a sad poem with a slightly

1085
01:05:13,960 --> 01:05:19,080
hopeful end, but also not as
hilarious as the dream was

1086
01:05:19,080 --> 01:05:23,120
because, you know, a person
becoming a pit of IKEA furniture

1087
01:05:23,120 --> 01:05:27,640
that you kind of have to like
build is a weird dream.

1088
01:05:27,640 --> 01:05:31,160
It's a it's a weird dream.
Was it a particular type of IKEA

1089
01:05:31,160 --> 01:05:33,680
furniture?
Like was it a Belkin bookcase or

1090
01:05:33,680 --> 01:05:35,720
was it like a fluid or something
like that or?

1091
01:05:36,040 --> 01:05:40,200
Yeah, it was just vibes based.
Yeah, not nothing specific did.

1092
01:05:40,800 --> 01:05:42,440
You lose the Allen key, or was
it?

1093
01:05:42,480 --> 01:05:47,520
Was it always there?
It was it was AI mean we I think

1094
01:05:47,520 --> 01:05:50,360
the, the Allen key like didn't
work very well.

1095
01:05:51,920 --> 01:05:55,480
And like nurses kept coming by
and being like, you know, what

1096
01:05:55,480 --> 01:05:59,440
are you doing?
And then, yeah, like there was

1097
01:05:59,560 --> 01:06:04,480
whatever it was, had like little
like whatever the furniture

1098
01:06:04,480 --> 01:06:08,560
piece my friend was had those
little plastic bits on the

1099
01:06:08,560 --> 01:06:11,600
bottom so that you don't like
scratch your, your, your floor

1100
01:06:11,600 --> 01:06:14,040
or whatever.
And I thought in my head, I

1101
01:06:14,040 --> 01:06:17,320
thought there were shoes.
Brilliant.

1102
01:06:18,640 --> 01:06:21,960
Like I said, this question from
Nikki Vivica, who, who really

1103
01:06:21,960 --> 01:06:25,160
likes talking about dreams and
the, and, you know, the

1104
01:06:25,160 --> 01:06:28,320
symbology and the, and the, the
union side of dreams and

1105
01:06:28,320 --> 01:06:30,320
whatever.
So there's definitely something

1106
01:06:30,320 --> 01:06:32,280
going on there, you know?
You and your.

1107
01:06:32,560 --> 01:06:36,120
Friend and whatever.
So yeah, no, thank you for

1108
01:06:36,120 --> 01:06:38,160
taking us into your subconscious
ever so ever.

1109
01:06:38,760 --> 01:06:44,440
So welcome.
Now, Ray, you of course have the

1110
01:06:44,480 --> 01:06:48,760
honor, nay, the responsibility,
nay, the honor of leaving a

1111
01:06:48,840 --> 01:06:51,480
question for my next guest sight
unseen.

1112
01:06:51,840 --> 01:06:52,400
What?
Yes.

1113
01:06:53,880 --> 01:06:58,600
I think my question will be if
you could be any native

1114
01:06:58,720 --> 01:07:02,920
Australian bird, like what would
you be and why?

1115
01:07:04,240 --> 01:07:08,960
Because I really love birds.
Oh yeah, even even the plovers

1116
01:07:09,000 --> 01:07:10,440
of the world.
Are they a native Australian

1117
01:07:10,480 --> 01:07:14,240
bird?
Yeah, the the mask lap wings.

1118
01:07:14,240 --> 01:07:17,440
Yeah, yeah, they do.
Yes, they they do love to

1119
01:07:17,440 --> 01:07:21,320
protect their nest.
I even love the this is this

1120
01:07:21,320 --> 01:07:24,120
will be this will go great on
like the podcast, but for visual

1121
01:07:24,120 --> 01:07:27,360
like listeners, there's I've got
lots of birds on my arm.

1122
01:07:29,000 --> 01:07:32,560
I love yeah, I love curloos.
I love, I love even love

1123
01:07:32,560 --> 01:07:34,360
pigeons.
Like, they, they don't, they

1124
01:07:34,360 --> 01:07:36,880
don't mean no harm.
Ibis.

1125
01:07:36,880 --> 01:07:41,440
Like, I like, I like birds
because I feel like, you know,

1126
01:07:41,440 --> 01:07:45,920
they're often just trying to
adapt to their surroundings and,

1127
01:07:46,440 --> 01:07:49,560
you know, we're often quite,
quite cruel to them.

1128
01:07:50,640 --> 01:07:52,120
So yeah, I have a lot of
feelings about birds.

1129
01:07:52,760 --> 01:07:54,400
What?
What about bean chickens for any

1130
01:07:54,440 --> 01:07:56,440
of those up north?
Oh yeah, love them.

1131
01:07:56,800 --> 01:07:59,040
Have a bean chicken tattoo as
well.

1132
01:07:59,040 --> 01:08:02,440
Once again, they're, they're,
you know, just trying to live in

1133
01:08:02,440 --> 01:08:06,200
an urban environment and, you
know, because they were cast out

1134
01:08:06,200 --> 01:08:08,560
of their, their habitats.
So I'm like, yeah, I have

1135
01:08:08,560 --> 01:08:10,720
sympathy for them.
I think they're cute.

1136
01:08:10,960 --> 01:08:15,880
Oh, I have, I literally have a,
a bin chicken soft toy on my

1137
01:08:15,880 --> 01:08:20,920
desk.
So I have a lot of feelings

1138
01:08:20,920 --> 01:08:22,680
about birds.
I'm literally but the shirt I'm

1139
01:08:22,680 --> 01:08:25,680
wearing has Magpies on it.
Yeah, how good.

1140
01:08:27,439 --> 01:08:29,960
I spoke about this with some
previous guests, but I think

1141
01:08:29,960 --> 01:08:32,160
there was a, there was a news
article going around about a

1142
01:08:32,160 --> 01:08:35,479
man, I think it was from Perth
who was trying to cook a bean

1143
01:08:35,479 --> 01:08:39,200
chicken and had to be, you know,
they they are and eat it right

1144
01:08:39,200 --> 01:08:41,880
and they are protected species.
So he had to be told in court

1145
01:08:41,880 --> 01:08:43,520
that you can't be doing that.
So.

1146
01:08:44,279 --> 01:08:47,439
Yeah, yeah.
Oh, that and the I don't know

1147
01:08:47,439 --> 01:08:50,000
what the circumstances
surrounding that because like if

1148
01:08:50,000 --> 01:08:53,600
you are trying to cook an eat a
bin chicken, like why?

1149
01:08:54,120 --> 01:08:55,600
Yeah, there might be other
factors at play.

1150
01:08:55,680 --> 01:08:57,880
There, Yeah, Yeah.
Like, are there other factors

1151
01:08:57,880 --> 01:09:02,520
like, you know, were they like
unable to like eat other things?

1152
01:09:02,560 --> 01:09:07,080
Like if they were like sleeping
rough, like, yeah, anyway, I

1153
01:09:07,080 --> 01:09:08,560
don't know.
I don't know the circumstances,

1154
01:09:08,560 --> 01:09:10,200
but I'm like, oh, there's a lot
of factors there.

1155
01:09:10,760 --> 01:09:14,920
Yeah, yeah, maybe they they just
had a dream of opening up a KFBC

1156
01:09:14,920 --> 01:09:20,040
or something, I don't know.
It's like I'm a vegetarian, no?

1157
01:09:21,560 --> 01:09:23,160
All right, I won't.
I won't indulge that anymore.

1158
01:09:23,800 --> 01:09:26,920
Anymore Ray White, if that is.
A poem, though.

1159
01:09:27,399 --> 01:09:28,840
Yeah, yeah, there's something in
that.

1160
01:09:29,560 --> 01:09:34,040
If, Ray, if people want to find
out more about you, follow your

1161
01:09:34,040 --> 01:09:38,720
work, support any of of these
organizations or causes that

1162
01:09:38,720 --> 01:09:41,080
you're a part of, where should
they head?

1163
01:09:42,479 --> 01:09:46,520
Yeah, pretty much.
I've got a website raywhite.net

1164
01:09:48,359 --> 01:09:50,080
that's.
Rae, not RAY.

1165
01:09:50,399 --> 01:09:54,120
Oh yeah, I am a poor artist.
I don't sell real estate.

1166
01:09:54,279 --> 01:10:00,680
Yeah, so RAEWHIT e.net and
pretty much everything is on

1167
01:10:00,680 --> 01:10:05,760
there.
And yeah, uplift poetry, we have

1168
01:10:05,760 --> 01:10:09,080
a website.
We also have NB Life, which is

1169
01:10:09,080 --> 01:10:14,920
ENBY life LIFE me, me trying to
spell.

1170
01:10:14,920 --> 01:10:16,160
I'm like, how do you spell
again?

1171
01:10:17,760 --> 01:10:21,760
So envy life.net and I'm on
pretty much most social media.

1172
01:10:21,760 --> 01:10:27,880
Much to my I'm disgruntled about
social media sometimes, but I am

1173
01:10:27,880 --> 01:10:32,240
on pretty much everything.
If you look at my name and yeah,

1174
01:10:32,440 --> 01:10:35,360
if you want to subscribe to any
of the things I do, that would

1175
01:10:35,360 --> 01:10:38,880
be amazing.
We we love donations.

1176
01:10:40,560 --> 01:10:44,360
Certainly do, and we'll have
links to all of those wonderful

1177
01:10:44,360 --> 01:10:47,160
things.
Yeah, in the show notes, as well

1178
01:10:47,160 --> 01:10:49,680
as where you can pick up your
copy of all the colours of the

1179
01:10:49,680 --> 01:10:52,600
rainbow.
And exactly as I am as well,

1180
01:10:53,680 --> 01:10:55,640
Ray, you've got one more piece
you're going to share with us.

1181
01:10:56,320 --> 01:11:04,240
Bring things to a soft close.
Yes, I, I was not sure which one

1182
01:11:04,240 --> 01:11:08,560
to end on.
So I might go with, because we

1183
01:11:08,560 --> 01:11:11,360
have been talking about real
estate a little bit, sort of

1184
01:11:12,080 --> 01:11:18,040
I'll go with Not Unlike Love,
which is a poem about there was

1185
01:11:18,400 --> 01:11:23,280
in my previous place where I
lived, there was a bunch of land

1186
01:11:23,280 --> 01:11:27,360
that was up for sale and I had
feelings about it and all the

1187
01:11:27,360 --> 01:11:29,040
construction that was going on
next door.

1188
01:11:29,720 --> 01:11:31,320
So this is called Not Unlike
Love.

1189
01:11:33,120 --> 01:11:37,360
It's something to do with
impermanence, the flight swift

1190
01:11:37,360 --> 01:11:44,280
slice of limb from log bone from
branch, about the smallest snips

1191
01:11:44,280 --> 01:11:48,960
it took to ground you.
It's something not unlike

1192
01:11:49,240 --> 01:11:53,960
possession about fell from
falling, freedom from freefall,

1193
01:11:54,360 --> 01:11:58,960
the quick cleave of chainsaws,
the ancorellas screeching

1194
01:11:59,240 --> 01:12:03,000
treeless.
If evictions in moratorium, then

1195
01:12:03,000 --> 01:12:07,960
does private equal public?
And what what it might it mean

1196
01:12:07,960 --> 01:12:12,680
to grow autonomy?
In the hot bask of afternoon

1197
01:12:12,680 --> 01:12:19,560
sun, I kneel to count your
notches and you tell me we could

1198
01:12:19,560 --> 01:12:26,200
be happy here.
And so we dig and turn, plant

1199
01:12:26,200 --> 01:12:28,640
parsley and basil, chives and
mints.

1200
01:12:29,480 --> 01:12:34,560
We laugh at aphids, leaf
hoppers, landlords and other

1201
01:12:34,560 --> 01:12:38,320
pests.
We knock down the gates and the

1202
01:12:38,320 --> 01:12:41,400
for sale sign.
We let the sun in.

1203
01:12:44,560 --> 01:12:45,160
Thank you.
This is.

1204
01:12:45,160 --> 01:12:49,280
Wonderful, wonderful.
Thank you for sharing your work

1205
01:12:49,320 --> 01:12:52,320
and, and your stories and, and
for for the advocacy that you

1206
01:12:52,400 --> 01:12:56,840
are doing in the community.
Ray White, it's been a a great

1207
01:12:56,840 --> 01:12:57,880
chat.
Thank you so much.

1208
01:12:57,880 --> 01:13:00,160
Thank you for.
For thinking with us and for

1209
01:13:00,160 --> 01:13:02,600
slamming with us.
Thank you so much, it's been an

1210
01:13:02,600 --> 01:13:03,440
absolute pleasure.