Rachael Williams - Poems Are for the Boys

0:00 Slam poetry doesn't care if it's perfect. It's time to slam. It's the biggest poem I've got inside of her. She was a thief. You love me to love a haunted house. Yelling, angry blood black nothingness began to spin this day. I hate pork chops. I am the master of my thing. I am the captain of myself. It's poetry in motion. Welcome to I Think Therefore I Slam, the podcast bringing you the best spoken word in slam poetry artist from Australia and beyond. My name is Andrew Rogerson and my guest today is a spoken word poet and writer from dark and young country on the NSW Central Coast. She's featured at poetry slams and festivals all across NSW including the Byron Writers Festival, Yours and Ours Festival and in the ACT at Canberra Slam. She's a two time finalist in the National Youth Poetry Slam and in 2024 performed with Bankstown Poetry Grand Slam for a sold out Sydney Town Hall.

1:03 She's hit venues like the Sydney Opera House and the State Library last year. She was also the 2024 NSW State Poetry Slam Champion and the 2024 national runner up in the Australian Poetry Slam, her collection. I have loved you Since you were Tiny and Crawling and I Wasn't Born or Alive Yet launched at the State Library of NSW last October. Rachel Williams, welcome to the show. Hey, thank you so much for having me Andrew. Lovely reading voice for that intro too. Loved it, happy to be here. My vocal warmups have not gone to waste. That's good to see. Rachel, you're playing somewhat of an expat at the moment because you're, you're over there in Canada on a, a bit of a, a working holiday.

1:46 How? How are things over there? Canada's great, I love Canada. I always imagined I would come here and be a ski instructor. Like 10 years ago I was here with my family on exactly in this same ski town and I'm so happy to be back. I'm so happy that I'm, like, travelling a lot. Now in my mid 20s, I'm doing like kind of all the things that I always wanted to do and everything is like, awesome, to be honest, Andrew, I'm loving it over here. Yeah. Good to hear. Well, Rachel, we're ready to see what incredible arts you're gonna bring us today. So would you like to start off with your first piece? Sure, My first piece is called Getty's Place Cabramatta.

2:27 It is a love letter to my childhood, my school holidays spent at my nan's house when I felt like I was like one of the only kids, like leaving the Central Coast and going away from the beach in the school holidays or something like that. But I have cherished memories. The poem also imagines me and a best friend in her house, and I'm super proud of this piece. So, Getty's Place, Cabramatta. I wouldn't know him without the Internet, but if we were 11, I imagine we would have met climbing my grandmother's eternal Mulberry tree out West in Cabramatta in the school holidays.

3:07 Or in someone's auntie's backyard next to a hot plastic slip and slide. A blue camping top drizzled with neon green morning fresh. A bucket of silky suds. Ashcrawny, wet legs, shins torn, knees blooming, welts rubbing our ankles, itchy as we fail to flake. The sticky grass, the mud we have ripped up from the earth when battering our young bones past the finish line. Home in our fingernails and hair until our mothers and their mothers banished us from the house, scolding us filthy. We might have felt weird standing in the baking heat, naked in our cozies with no swimming pool or sprinkler insight. Until someone's older brother pushes the tip of their thumb inside the mouth of a garden hose and sprays us like a fan, pelting our faces, laughing.

3:57 And we are forgetting our awkward bodies trying to capture the disappearing rainbow in the grass with our feet, throwing ourselves on bin lids lined against the fence to catapult into the neighbor's backyard where ice blocks are promised creamy banana smoothie moustaches. Some are cooking the new cul-de-sac tar into lava. And after losing the ball down the storm drain, we would bash tennis rackets against each other like night with their swords jousting at the dead end of the street, yelling car. Even without one. I swoon when you spare my life at laser tag. We might watch the first Avengers movie at Parramatta, Westfield's bathing in the only air conditioning to touch us after enduring the simmering seat belt bones that got us there.

4:44 The first time I would have said I love you would have been on the back steps of the laundry as the southerly hits the unforgiving slam of the fly screen, the pokey nails in the timber I stubbed my toes on and my nan forever listening from the kitchen sink, our yellow labs metal bowl with three cups of kibble inside, the music of its skinning the pavement. You would beat me to feeding her and we wouldn't have looked at each other until we knocked down the box of lucky dog biscuits from on top of the fridge as Nan calls me for a bath and spaghetti and cheese for dinner. It's the 6:00 news, the foot fan always clicking its turning neck. I send you home with freshly washed clothes from the day before and the love tattered board games you brought over.

5:31 You say it back when I am letting you out the front door, 2 hands undoing the latch, your board shorts splashing the lino, my Nan scowling, your father burning up in the driveway. Do you remember the last time you were small enough to shove your put inside the bottom of a bucket? The horror of it being stuck there for a second? Do you remember the last time you filled regular party balloons with the outside tap until they snapped? How sometimes the sacred source would be guarded by a cousin? Do you remember, like me, how sometimes childhood was a Kingdom, when no one ever died or was lost? Life was as long as those sweltering summer days, waking up to a muffled 2UE, radio static buzzing, falling out of a tree, forgetting our bodies before the Internet, before the southerly and bedtime. Thank you.

6:25 Wow. Thanks for listening. What an amazingly vivid picture of an Australian summer. That's all I've I've got. To say thank you so much. I was so out of breath. That's OK. The hot plastic slip and slide, like I think every kid who grew up in sweltering yeah, Australian summers knows exactly what you're talking about, some of this kind of universal experience and universal imagery. What do you reckon was like the best summer of your life? Is that something that you've considered? Oh my gosh, OK, I'm obviously we're blessed with summer and Christmas happening at the same time in Australia. I have vivid memories of my brothers and I.

7:07 We used to play cricket in the city on Christmas Day when I was like 9/10/12 years old and we would catch a ferry from Balmain under the Harbour Bridge. And then like my brothers would get in trouble from security guards because we were just like bowling and whacking tennis balls off city buildings, off like the modern Art Museum in Circular Quay 1. Christmas Day my dad had to jump in Sydney Harbour and get our tennis ball back so we could keep playing cricket. I don't know. I have a lot of memories around my brothers. Yeah, a lot of memories around sport. And my brothers and I just like growing up outside in summer. So very lucky, very lucky.

7:50 Nothing will get in the way of summer cricket in the park happening, not even losing the ball in the in the ocean. No, no didn't shark infested Sydney Harbour? No way Dad going in. Excellent. Well, thank you again for sharing, Rachel. I want to start off with a bit of a favorite question of the podcast, which is your origin story? Your origin story of starting to share your creative work with people. How did this come about? Was it a friend who who dubbed you into something? Were you invited into a space? Were you inspired by an elder? What's the TI? Was reflecting on this in preparation for this interview. The true story is I was nine years old with a Facebook account just so I could play Farm Villain Pet Society. I'm not sure if anyone else had that experience. You can't do that.

8:39 Anymore, but because of this Facebook account, no, you can't, you can't do that anymore. It was back in the day, it was 2009. Because of this Facebook account, my 9 year old self felt the need to like post little poems on Facebook for like my primary school friends I guess. And one of them, I remembered one. It was really sweet. Magic is real, A dream is a dream. Tomorrow it's sunny. Well, that's how it seems. Love is a fairy tale. I start my day with laughter because when I'm a Princess I will live happily ever after. Thank you everyone, thank you. I loved writing poetry from like that age to be honest.

9:20 Didn't really know what it was. When I was 16 my best friend in in advanced English brought me to a local poetry slam in Gosford. It was called speak up. Then I ended up doing like a year St. poets artist residency with them in a group, Fell in love with spoken word. When I went to university in Wollongong, I joined the enough said poetry slam scene, which I'm such a big fan of the people that run that and they're my good mates now, Kept growing through university doing that. Then I got myself a bit of a muse when I like, fell in love when I was like 19 years old.

10:01 So I started writing lots about him and performing about him, and then I just started taking it really seriously and now we're here. Unreal. So what I'm hearing is, yeah, it really kind of came in for you at A at a very young age and as a result, I feel like we've seen you become so capable and so accomplished at the slam poetry kind of competition level so early. You know, we know that you're a two time National Youth Poetry Slam finalists and in 2024 you were national runner up at the Australian Poetry Slam, which is a massive, massive achievement. What I want to ask you though, is that we know that in these competition scenes there is, you know, this scoring system and all these kind of processes that you don't normally get at your regular open mics, right? I want to know how do you kind of wade through or reconcile your own artistic standards about what is, you know, success for you with the, if you like, arbitrary nature of competitive scoring?

11:02 Because it is arbitrary. It's kind of part of the fun, the fact that that the judges picked are just ordinary people and stuff. But yeah. Did you have any thoughts about that? Yeah, there's like, I think there's a little bit of an understanding in at least like the Sydney Slam scene where I'm from is that now it's like people have the mindset you can write for slam and you can write this three minute like smash, like hit, hit, hit pace and like, you know, it's function, you know what it's doing. Like you're writing for the competition or you're writing for yourself and you're you can do both, but you don't want to crush your soul by trying to write for slam just so you can win a competition.

11:42 Either I feel lucky now that I don't feel like I have to prove myself or compete as much. I'm like I'm I'm very grateful that when I'm performing now, I get to like do sets of poetry. But if I'm performing a piece, I have to believe in the piece by myself without thinking about judges or five random people that have a subjective view of poetry as a it's all very subjective. I let the scoring go because like if people don't know, often the judges are 5 random people that have picked up from the audience that that means that like that could be 5 people that have never seen spoken word ever before and they're judging like the national final, they're judging the NSW final or something like that.

12:27 So I try to take scoring very lightly. I think artistry and storytelling always comes first. Slam and scoring has its like place. I, I respect its place, but I don't like to do it a bunch now. I don't like competing the points, especially when you have a very personal adverse piece or a piece that is about suicide or or mental health. And it kind of feels like I've competed with those pieces before and it just kind of feels wrong. After you sit down, you're like, that didn't feel good that my story got like a numerical value on something. So personal scoring and slam culture is important, but it's not the be all end all.

13:16 And I hope every artist like works out their relationship to it because it our stories matter more. Like the point. There's a good saying like the point is the point is not the point. The point is the poetry. I'm sure you've heard that, but it's true. Like we just need to tell stories man Man, I hope I answer that. Yeah. Absolutely. I think it hit the nail on the head in saying, you know, you don't want the number to define. First off, you don't want the numbers to define you and you don't want the numbers to define the work because like you said, you're, you're presenting extremely personal things that might be about yourself or someone else that you really care about and they automatically transcend any kind of scoring.

14:01 Like that's not going to do them justice. It's. Also kind of gutting to see a first time poet get up and they've got like they're shaking and it's like their most intimate pace and then they get like a low score and then they get disheartened. But the most amazing thing that they should be proud of is that the fact they stood on a stage and told their story and opened up and what was what, they were vulnerable. Now for sure, you were saying that I think every poet has a different relationship to the numbers or scoring. I'll give you a quick tip. I've done the the Victorian final twice at this point. And when the scores come out after I performed, I will try, try and deliberately do a Homer Simpson in my head and just be like, hey, like I'm trying to scramble, not hearing them. I don't want to.

14:47 I like, I don't want to be tracking that in my head throughout the night. Yeah. So that's my strategy. Oh, totally. It's like, yeah, man, celebrate the fact that you're at the Victorian final and like, yeah, do do The Simpsons thing. Do The Simpsons song in your head. Like absolutely it's. Just blacking it all out. Even though I love the, I love the world we're a part of, it's like a funny, it's a funny culture in in the sense of like the scoring and how we value it, right? Like I'm sure lots of poets feel the same way. I think Therefore I Slam is brought to you by the Slam Fam on Patreon. Yes, these are the generous, beautiful, creative souls who help keep the lights on here at Podcast HQ. And for less than the price of a coffee a month, they get access to all types of exclusive goodies, including bonus episodes, previews of upcoming content, new poems and musings from me, and much more.

15:44 To become a member, you can head on over to patreon.com, ittis, or click the link in the description. Now back to the conversation, Speaking of things like routine, and this is not something that we've talked about along the podcast yet, Rachel, do you have any pre performance things? So anything you do physically or mentally or ritually that help you prepare the most before you get on a stage, you know, are you, are you superstitious about what you want in the green room or anything like that? Oh dude, I I don't have an ego to think about like what's in the green room. If there's like any snack in the green room, like I'm so happy, like, but if I'm not working that day, then I will wake up, jump in the ocean, wash my hair, put on a Princess dress, do my makeup. Then I've got like an hour and a half of driving to get to the city, which is just like banger after banger. I work on a lot of like nervous energy on like a day that I'm performing.

16:45 So usually backstage with the poet, I'm just like talking like a lot and just like making lots of jokes and trying to be friends with everyone backstage because I'm trying to get out. I'm trying not to think about the fact that we're about to perform for like 500 people and I need to get out of the energy. But yeah, the best advice I got when I was 18 about it, it's like if you like physically exert yourself before you go on stage, like if you go running or you exercise before you are performing, that gets out of like that gets out to nervous energy too. But personally, before I start and before quite emotional poems, I take like this dramatic big breath, like in front of the microphone.

17:27 I step back. Like I take a few breaths. Like the audience can see that I'm like really like trying to take a moment that helps me and my nerves and my breath work on stage, I guess. And it also like, that is my ritual, especially before my poem for the boys. I take like a few big breaths. And I was told by an audience member like, like he knew we were going to like get deep and get real because I had this whole moment of heavy breathing and it like was a serious, like, it's leaves serious space before you start speaking. Like they know I'm emotionally preparing right now to do this piece or something like that. For sure I'm I'm all about the breathing as well.

18:09 All about closing my eyes and breathing before I launch in and trying to block out any other distractions. I kind of wish that it was maybe a bit more socially acceptable to just like maybe move a bit more during a slam piece. But you know, you got to kind of make sure you're, you're speaking to the mic. Because I feel like I'd be like nervous jumping or, or like running from one side of the stage to the other. But that might, that might quite focus on the, on the piece itself. That might be distracting, but who knows, maybe one day. Yeah, imagine if we all had like, headsets, like all the slam poets had microphone headsets, and we'll just, like, walk. Well, it's Broadway by that point. Yeah, that's true.

18:50 That is true. Like I would love to see a bunch of slim poets walking around and getting out their feelings by, like, throughout the crowd. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I think that's the next step. What are your rituals like? What are your? What's your things? I so I like to memorize pieces if I can, especially if it's if it's comp I will have a print out so I won't use my phone. I'll have a large text print out on however many pages and I'll put them at the base of the mic. That is what I found to be the best prompt if I need it. If I need it rather than having my phone distract me. I'm also I guess I could be pretty chatty before a night kicks off. I do remember at the, the Victoria finals kind of being chatty and, and, and maybe nervously introducing myself to, to everyone.

19:40 Maybe that's just 'cause, you know, I feel like I'm also there to entertain in a way. And so if I can help someone else get over their nerves, that that helps me. Totally. I think the best comedy is backstage when all the poets are so nervous that we're just like constantly like making jokes and everyone's kind of like on this, like odd like this high from performing as well. Yeah, and it's nice to I, I find it nice to go early. I know that again, in competition you don't necessarily want to go early because of something called score creep, but obviously you get it out of the way and you can kind of try to enjoy the rest of the night. I've told this story on the pod before, but the Victorian spoken Word prize in 2019. Rest in peace A-25 performance, right? Kind of like a showcase night for the whole State 25 performers.

20:30 I'm dead last. And as much as I remember parts from the night and enjoy parts from the night, it was kind of sickening having to wait so long to do it. So yeah, somewhere in the middle or towards the start will suit me. 100% and you're the finale and you're like, if I don't knock it out of the park like it's going to be a problem. And I was so new. I was just so new, Rachel. Like it was overwhelming just watching kind of the who's who and and and being like, what am I doing here? I got in through wild card. So the impostor syndrome was already so strong. But yeah, did my best. No Andrew, you deserve to be there and I hope you I hope you scared the other poets with your amazing poetry.

21:13 Well, I'm slowly but surely, you know, having everyone who was featured on that night guest guested on the podcast. So we're getting there. We, we all have different recollections. Some people have said they don't remember anything, like it's just a black whatever. And I go, Oh no, it was it was a big night for me. True. Hey, I'd love to like I visit the Melbourne scene. I hear great things. I hear great things from the Victorian Slam scene. Yeah. Oh, we'd, we'd love to have you. Right, you have. You love it. Yeah, I mean it's do. You love it like. Yeah, absolutely. If you know where to look, there are things happening most days of the week, which is such a privilege. You know, that's not not the same in other cities. It's interesting that you say that because I, I certainly look at what's going on in Sydney in terms of things like the Bankstown Grand Slam.

22:01 And I go, oh, I feel like that's maybe the heart of the country. But then I hear people from NSW saying the same thing about Melbourne. So you got to look in your own backyard and there's, there's some new events that are, that are kind of blossoming as some older events wrap up or change. There's always new projects. Like I always say that if I didn't start the podcast, I would be doing an event somewhere. So that that's kind of the way it is. But yeah, we'd love to have you, Rachel. I'd love to be there. Yeah. I'm just a big fan of like, our poetry scene growing in Australia. Like, I think it's such a big win for all of us. And like anyone who wants to start or join the community too, like it as it gets stronger, like we all, we're all winning.

22:43 We're all winning. And there's people out there who I think there's a lot of nascent, you know, talent out there in terms of people who they wouldn't even know that they love doing this yet, you know what I mean? And it'll just take them being in the right context to discover them, you know, and people in regional areas and other places where where maybe there's not as much opportunity. So I think it's a very bright future. Speaking of big events, I do want to talk about the Australian Poetry Slam 2024 final where you were national runner up. Your original piece that you shared there was a very, very powerful piece that highlighted male suicide. I want to know from your perspective, what do you think are the major factors nowadays that are impacting not just men's mental health, but like young people's mental health and and what do you think are some things we need to do as a society to look after each other? I think it's a lack of connection and a lack of belonging as well as things of in Australia we have like this binge drinking culture that no one really addresses. Yeah.

23:51 I feel like if we all did more things that like feeds like that feeds our soul and with people that feeds our soul, we'd be better off. I I don't, I don't feel like an expert at all in this area. But from my understanding, if we had more community, if we had more belonging and connection, people would feel less alone and less isolated. The loneliness epidemic is like real. Yeah, it's very real. I think we need to continue to end the stigma of talking about mental health and talking about it as loudly as we can in on our stages in our media, like in the world. I think like, it won't hurt anyone if we talk about these issues more and more.

24:40 I have my own like team. I've been through a lot in the last four years, personally. I've been through a lot. I was very sick actually when I was 22 and I lost like my life and my control, control of my life. And I was in like a pretty bad place. But since then, I've like, built this amazing team and I have this amazing normal life now because of my team, of my psychiatrist I've had for four years, my GP I've known since I was 19 years old at university, my friends and my family who can vouch for me and know my character and know who I am and what's going on with me. I put myself in spaces that are really good for me. Like poetry is freaking listening and talking and therapy and sharing.

25:30 Like, I feel at home in those spaces. It's like therapy. Yeah. Get a team around you to support you who know you. I sound so preachy, but like we need to get off our phones. Like if my friends pick up their phone at the pub, like I will have a go at my friends. We don't do it. But if anyone picks up their phone at the pub, it's like what are you doing? Like I'm right here. Like I'm a person, I'm a person. Get off your phone or something. I don't know. We need more connection. Absolutely. If someone, if I'm having lunch with someone, they try and take a photo of the food. I'll be slapping that thing out of your hands. What are you doing? Who who are you doing this for right now? You know what I mean? Like this is not what what today's about, I suppose.

26:13 I absolutely agree with you about connection and community. What I will note though, like from my understanding, the socialization between girls and boys is different. Like I grew up talking about every single feeling with all my best friends and that was very normal. And like, I don't think it's the same. I don't think, well, it used to be not the same boys being raised the same like this man up culture. This how we talk to our boys and how we deal with like boys feelings and emotions in boyhood and adolescence as well. I think that needs to change as well. The whole idea of like men should always be tough.

26:54 I don't know. But it needs to change because yeah, but it is changing now. There's things going on. I mean, you know, the, the debate about nature and nurture is, is infinite. Do you know what I mean? I think from the reading and the listing that I've done, I think there is something different going on in general between, I guess men and women in terms of what happens to us under duress or stress. I think, again, generally speaking, I think women are more likely to build social supports in that kind of context, whereas men, I think there's something that draws us to a more isolated kind of lone wolf thing.

27:34 And I will spend the rest of my life trying to understand that and and try to be like, why is it so hard to talk about this or touch on this? I think we'll be figuring it out. Really interesting point I thought you raised. I know you just touched on about like binge drinking culture, and this is a hot take from me. So I I want to make it clear like, I don't care what anyone does, right? I'm not here to police individual behaviour. That's not what I'm here to do. What I do care about is, is larger, like systemic things about what gets romanticized or what gets advertised for me as a sport lover. Like the amount of leeway that like our society in Australia has given like sports gambling companies is fucking disgusting. We know that this is not good for us to be engaging in this like habitually.

28:28 Again, I don't care what people do. If you like having a punt, that's fine. If you think it's a problem for you, then that's your responsibility to deal with. I'm not here to outlaw or anything. What I would like to see is I'd like to see a lot more or things stripped of their advertising license because I don't think there's any space for you to be encouraging people to do this. Like we know this is bad and there's so many things I'm ranting now, but there's there's so many things in modern society that are like just our brains are not kind of built for everything from obviously like social media and sensationalist, sensationalist news. So I think we need to get good at even realizing, oh, I thought I could like do this thing sensibly and control this thing and I actually can't. It's actually like it's out of my reach. Anyway, that's just some thoughts from me. No 100%.

29:17 It's also very normalized gambling in sport and binge drinking around sport and the advert, the advertising around that, there's ads to gambling and at the end it's like, by the way, don't do, don't do this. It's actually very bad. And you can lose your house really quickly, by the way, really quickly. Like what? For those who are not familiar there, there is, there is the, the disclaimer at the end, which is, you know, often gamble responsibly. And I, I mean, they, they put it there 'cause they have to, but like, why don't you advertise responsibly? Like why, why does it come down to individual choice and not corporate responsibility? That's what I'm trying to say. I, I want to see more corporate responsibility. And obviously they're not going to do it themselves. So an outside party has to say, quit fucking around and like doing this.

30:01 The gravy days are over. You know, people, people are always going to drink and gamble. And that's fine. Again, I don't care what you do, but I care about how how it's portrayed because as artists, like we know how powerful media is. We know how powerful the medium and the message is. So. So anyway, there you go. It sounds like we're both, you know, passionate about similar things. We need somebody to intercept the advertising and the whole culture. I agree absolutely. I agree all. Right, little, little circuit breaker here, Rachel, I think, I think we'd love to hear your second piece. Now all. Right as we know Andrew, before this interview started, my laptop died and because it's a a second hand not great laptop from Japan purchased in Japan, it died. So I'm gonna go off the top of my head with this For the Boys poem and we'll see how we go.

30:54 But thank you for listening to this. I would like to give a content warning. This poem references suicide in young men very close to my heart. This cause and yeah, just viewer, viewer listener discretion poem for the boys home for the footy boys the yeah, the boys, boys, The Saturdays are for the boys, boys the full credit to the boys, boys. The how's that boys? They got the vaccine early just to go to the pub first boys they I'll only tell you after 10 beers boys, that I love you boys. The Triple J medal boys the emo Spotify playlist boys the gamer boys, the broke boys, the Jim Bros and the army boys. The my engineering degree almost killed me boys. The secret by boys.

31:42 The Bible boys that I walked in on him hanging boys. The always laughing boys. The boys who want to go on drives for hours boys and don't care if they don't come back boys. The smoke weed every second of the day boys. I'm dropping acid alone boys. And for the boys born biologically female boys for all the boys I love. Fuck what a shit show. I'm sorry for the entire shit show. The slaughterhouse statistics and stabbing silence, Your mental monologue so quiet, so compliant. It's like you've all made an alliance not to describe it. So blast your music, wear your seatbelts, and drive.

32:25 Because car crashes aren't the biggest killer of young boys. It's suicide, boys. I see you small and scared and so human. I see you when I cannot see my own best friend. So I hug you, tie at parties and I hand you letters I have written and you will think I'm weird but I'm grabbing at any man that reminds me of him, which is all of them, to feel a pulse. Come back to life boys. Sometimes when I hug you I will press my ear to your chest just so I can hear how alive you really are. Boys, have I told you I am now becoming the age he was when I last saw him?

33:08 Boys, I ask you to play your music in the car because I want you to tell me how you feel. I don't want you to skip the depressing songs or try to set the vibe with an indie pop surf rock disguise. Play me the shit you fall asleep to. Play me all of your heavy, heavy music. Play me the records that saved your life and I'll play you all the records I wish I sent him. Lastly, the boys who have passed over, God knows you can hear me. I camp overnight on your Facebook accounts and I watch your mother perform CPR every year.

33:54 I wonder how many of our 200 mutual friends stalk your digital grave like I do. How many are sitting, watching, replaying to I sit and I watch and I pretend I am not scrolling through a haunted Times Square front row of an autopsy at the top of your profile. You are a stuck statue frozen in time Forever. 14 and at a Gather tasting beer for the first time. You died when fisheye camera lenses were still being used at parties. And now this is 10 years ago so I'm falling asleep. So until next year I'll read on your Facebook account Your mother says happy heavenly birthday son. You are 24 today.

34:46 Thank you for saying hi when you flickered the lights on and off for us. I know you are still here. Thank you for listening to that. Stunning. That's all I got. Yeah. Yeah. No, thank you, Rachel. There is something that is very appreciated, I think, when someone gives a voice to that stuff. So yeah, thank you again. Hey, quick pep talk. If you're enjoying the episode, I'd love it if you could leave a rating review comment or like wherever you're listening right now. You know how this works.

35:26 Every little bit of digital interaction helps people to find the show and keeps the poetry flowing. And if you want to do something extra special, please share the episode with someone who you think will vibe with it. That also helps with all of the above. Thanks so much for listening. And now back to our guest. I want to talk about your poetry collection. Love the title, by the way. Very full out boy, I have loved you very, very the 1975. I should say I have loved you since you were tiny and oh. My God, wait. I'm so excited that you referenced that because that's part of the reason that I named the title. But like, we can go into that. I'll let you continue, OK? Well, let's start with the title. So you have named it. I have loved you since you were tidy and crawling and I wasn't born or alive yet.

36:10 Now does remind me a little bit of of the 1970 Fives. I love it when you sleep because you are so beautiful yet so unaware of it. Are you saying there's a direct connection between these things? As someone who loves the 1975, I have camped on the streets of New Zealand for that band. Like, no, I'm so happy that you called that reference because I love like, a dramatic title. Yes, it's a reference to their sophomore record. I like. I like it when you sleep for you. You're so beautiful yet so unaware of it. That is so cool to me that you said that. Like, that's beyond cool to me. How? Many times you've seen them live. Probably like 20 honestly. Like. Great work. Are you a big fan? I'm. A big fan and I I understand that they are not everyone's cup of tea.

36:51 I understand that they that Maddie is as a spaceman, A spaceman spaceman, but I'll, I'll take it all. I'll take the whole package and very interested to see what what they do next. And it's, it's been bizarre and kind of cool to see them just like explode in popularity over the years and, and have been incredibly influential when you think about it, when you think about what they were doing with their production and what else has been born out of like the the record label they're on and whatever. I think we'll look back and see them as a defining group from this time. Yeah, I think obviously I love them. I think they're awesome. I do not take any responsibility for Maddie Healey or his choices, but big respect to his songwriting as well.

37:39 Yeah, I love like I love them. I love everything they do. So much like the 1975, you know, you had to put together this collection, and you said that you'd gone back through six years of notebooks in order to curate for the collection. Yeah, that seems staggering. We're probably looking at hundreds of of possible pieces there. How on earth did you decide what made the cut? OK, firstly, I would like to acknowledge just quickly the title is dramatic and it's kind of funny because I try to stay on stage. By the way, like I say like this title. I say like my, my, my book is called I have loved you since you were tiny and crawling and I wasn't born or alive yet. And then I say, because I'm a super chill person and I'm really cool and chill.

38:22 And that's, yeah, that's which is I'm not. I'm really not. I had to look through all that I've written in six years. The whole collection is a nod to my older brothers and the boys I grew up with, my friends. And. But truly, if I'm being honest, it is the collection is about one person. If that person read the collection, I think they would know it's about them. I had to be really careful. Like I want to respect this person a lot. I love the memories I have with this person. But now that I've put something out into the world, I never want to say the wrong thing and upset someone.

39:07 Or I was pretty careful crafting. Like if this person read the collection, they wouldn't be offended and hopefully they'd be able to see like, this is how I love them now, like at a distance as an old friend and that I only send them like love and light. That is how I selected the poems. I wanted the collection to be a good representation of how I felt in 2026 about this relationship. I also wanted to if I'm being honest, I love this person and if someone asked me about this relationship now I would hand them the book and be like this is how I feel about the thing.

39:55 This relationship is the most significant experience of love I've ever had and I don't mind writing about like what has been most impactful in my life. He has changed my life. I'm sure I have changed his life. Years have passed, like 5 years have passed since I've been with this person and. Yeah, I only want him to know that I loved him and it's all good. It's all good, man. It's all good. It's nice to talk and perform poetry about someone like that. You really careful that you think is it like a great person and that you loved like it makes me feel good inside regardless of what happens in the future. So you really scoured the pages for the pieces that just resonated the most and and got the most across about what this person is to you.

40:49 Yes, there's all sorts of over 8 years of knowing this person and like 6 years of writing about it. There's lots I could have said, but I know what I want to say and it's it's only with care and compassion and love because that's how I feel. I don't feel anything else. There were some, there was some like, sexy poems that I had to, like, cut out completely because I was like, you know what? Like, maybe I was naive and juvenile before, but I don't want to overstep and like, talk about too much sexy stuff, you know? Like, that's for me.

41:30 Would you say that the the write, the writing of the book if you like, went down a few steps from from maybe a bit a bit R rated to maybe an M or something like that? Look, it was only, it was only one poem that was about No, no, there was one poem where and I used to perform it, which I feel bad about now because it's quite intense, like, but it was when he would come over when I was at university. And I loved those times. But like, I probably shouldn't be talking such sexy material on big stages. So mad respect. But I'll keep those for myself. OK, Fair enough. Fair enough. Rachel, I've seen pictures of you with who I describe as like the who's who of NSW Slam, including some guests that we've had on the pod before. Reflecting on your journey of, of, of seemingly, yeah, growing up on different kind of slam stages and things like that. Who are the people, so poets or or otherwise, who have really been in your corner on your creative journey, would you say? Thank you for asking this because I used to drive like 4 slams a month so I feel like I have community at in Bankstown poetry slam, in Bread and Butter poetry slam in Newtown, in the inner West of Sydney at Enough Said slam in Wollongong and on the Central Coast as well at Saltwater Slam. Rob Waters, the national champion of 2023. He's like one of my good mates from the coast and he's always been so supportive of me and we

43:01 like, we hang out as mates like at poetry nights on the Central Coast, which is awesome. Troy Wong has always been supportive, Adara and Lauren Elizabeth from what I've said. And my friends are in my corner. My friends are also awesome because they like, love to make fun of me for being a slime poet and like take the piss out of me. And I appreciate that because like they just think I'm like some love poet, which I am. But like, I appreciate. Yeah. My friends and my parents have always been super supportive. My mom was like a theatre mom and took me to lots of theatre and always was supportive of me performing on stages. So like they're, so they come to like all my shows and they love seeing me performing and the.

43:55 Yeah. So I have a good team. I have a good team, Andrew. Sounds like it. And hey, shout out to theatre mums, you know, setting the scene, setting the stage, so to speak. Rachel, I, I want to talk and, and kind of deep dive about one of your kind of older pieces, which I recently rewatched. And this is a piece that you had just called God, the word God. I found it very, very moving. And I'd love to hear more about the story behind the piece and what your journey towards authenticity that you seem to reference through this piece was like. When I was 17, I like kind of fell in love with my best friend and I was at an all girls Catholic school at the time. What an experience.

44:40 I don't recommend it for everyone. She was great and we were like together, but we're best friends and it was really confusing because neither of us had ever experienced something like that. It was very powerful, very intense. And we were like 17 years old when I was 19. And when I wrote that piece, I was reflecting on like 10 years of what how I felt being queer and being growing up Catholic, what it felt like and touching on the ages. It was intimidating, a little bit like scary, being queer and kind of out before marriage was legalized in Australia. The first time I went to Mardi Gras when I was 18 years old was pretty formative.

45:30 Like seeing that amazing rainbow parade and like seeing all these people that are so accepting and inclusive and Pride is such a big celebration. It's not like like like a big celebration where it's not so dark. I felt I didn't feel good about my sexuality for a long time there. I felt very shameful and scared and anxious about it. Growing up and making friends at university who were queer helped me so much and the more people were accepting the more open minded people I met at university was like an was an amazing thing for me.

46:11 I don't think I will date a girl again, and I don't think I will marry a girl either. And I am constantly checking in with myself on where I'm at with my sexuality. The thing that helps me the most is just staying honest with myself and my friends and, like, where my heart's at. That helps me a lot. But it gets easier as you get older. Like, it's like, I feel like all this shame and this, like, burden on my shoulders, like, just lifted and gets lighter every year. I don't think about it as much anymore. Yeah, it was, it was a hard time, but it made me, it kind of, it helps me be who I am today.

46:57 And I've had like family members and friends be really like supportive and respectful while I work myself out, like while I was trying to figure out if I like girls or if I like boys or whatever. So shout out to my support circle for being there for me while I worked it out. My family also are really cool. Even though I grew up Catholic, it was never an issue. Everyone was always really supportive. Yeah. Which is not the experience for many people. So yeah. So I yeah. So I'm very lucky. I'm very lucky.

47:37 Amazing. Bringing it back to the support circle as you've done, you know, several times today. It sounds like you've got great foundations there. I think you know, I I said this to you pre call. I think part of the reason I just found it moving is having grown up as a church kid, I saw a similar story play out for some of my friends and saw the pain of what was happening when they were rejected by communities that they'd grown up in because of their sexuality or whatever they were. They were working out. You know, this is a thing that is continuing to play out in in, in places that, you know, I kind of keep an eye on. For example, you know, I've people in my extended family who who run a church, right?

48:18 And it's only very recently they've gone through a really big process of changing their minds on things. And now they are like much more welcoming and much bigger advocates of the queer community. And it's just been amazing to see that, to see that change can happen over time. And, and we can kind of use that as a springboard for, for better things because, you know, the, the, the stats on the, on the suffering and, and, and, and the grief around these things are, are pretty staggering. So your piece, which I just love, just reminded me of that. So yeah, I I really enjoyed hearing a bit more of the story behind that. Don't worry, every time I if I ever feel shame or anything like that, I just remind myself how short life is and how like time is precious.

49:06 We don't have that much of it in this life and I kind of like it. Sounds basic, but it's really easy to overcome a lot of things when you think about time and how you want to live your life in that time. Yeah, yeah, totally, totally. I, I now want to get your input, Rachel, on the overarching creative metaphor that we're using for Season 3. I want to know if your creative work was a colour or shade on the colour spectrum. Which one is it and why? Look, I thought about this. It's going to have to be emerald green or Forest Green because I love life.

49:50 That sounds so funny. But like the colours of life. So like the colours of like a great bushwalk or the colours of my ring or Wicked the musical, for example. Yeah. Like I love, like lush colours that bring life. And I hope that, yeah, I hope I live and create with life. Love it. I don't think we've had a green yet. So I'm looking forward to filling out the rest of the the bow and the and the spectrum. So we've got you in there. Now. We've also had our final question, which was left by our my previous guest. This comes from Adara Intala. Oh cool.

50:32 I I knew you would flip when you when you heard that. So there's spoken word poetry and there is page poetry. How much do you think these two forms of poetry can and should overlap? And Dara was talking about, you know, should the slam poet try to get themselves published on the page? Should the page poet be performing in public? What do you think? Do you think these worlds that can collide? It is the good argument like can maybe all page poetry can be slam poetry? Like can all slam poetry be page poetry? I agree. At the end of the day, I love you Dara, but there are no rules to poetry. Like like there's no true rules.

51:14 You got to like live the expression and love the expression. No, like do whatever you want man. There shouldn't be a division. Some of my favorite like slam poets have great written work even if it's not like super eloquent or wordy or technical. Like I love reading slam pieces. No rules. No rules to poetry. There's no rules. That's it. We're making our own way. We're trailblazing. So we want our stage poets on the page. We want our page poets on the stage. Show us what you got. Yes, yes. Love it, love it.

51:55 Rachel, this has been fantastic. If people want to find out more about you, get your book, your poetry collection, or follow what you're doing in the poetry space or soon in the in the Canadian poetry space, I'm sure. Where should they head? Yeah, if you would like to, you can follow my Instagram. It's at 2000s Love poetry. Catch me in Banff this summer on a stage doing poetry there. I don't know my next plan to perform in Australia, but I will post them when I know. And that's where you can find me for now. You might find me on an icy ski hill in the meantime.

52:35 But thank you for this time, Andrew. I appreciate it. No worries. What? And what about the book? I'm sure people are championing at the bit. Where's the best place to get it? Oh yes, it's on the Word Travels website, which is they're they're partnered with the Australian Poetry Slam. The link to that is in my Instagram bio. If you would like to check out my collection. Thank you for listening to my Ted talk and. So good. And we'll have we'll have links to everything in the show description so that people can can find their way nice and nice and easy. It would be amazing if you could play us out with your last piece for today. OK, this is called Everything You Love is a Museum. I tried to learn a list of notes and it's kind of in reference to when you when you love someone, you want to get close to them and you want to understand what they love and how they love those things and why.

53:33 So I kind of felt like that's where the title came from. Everything You love is a museum. I tried to learn and once, when visiting you planted your overnight bag in my bedroom, hugged me, exhaled, shook your head. You told me there are so many roundabouts on the Central Coast, so I counted 17 from the Arimba exit to my parents' house. What? I said, I miss you so much it hurts. What I meant I miss you more than life itself. If you are the home I dream of building, it appears I'll be somewhat homesick until I am home with you.

54:16 In the lull. I count lithium levels, I take the blood tests, I swallow the medication. I sleep, I sleep, I sleep, and I'm afraid one of my lullabies doesn't want to know me anymore. Have you kept my love letters? I meet strangers who cried the poems I have written in your dedication for men's mental health. I hope you are proud of me too. I know we haven't talked in eight months lol, but I want our future backyard to have fairy lights hung around the trees. I'll ask you to picnic and dance under them. And I'll surrender the love letters you haven't read yet. Will you keep them? Every night I fall asleep in a 21 pilot shirt, the one I told you I loved you in for the first time.

55:00 That's how gay I am. Your beautiful mother would have loved me had she ever met me. Had you ever introduced us, I would have loved her wholeheartedly too. I'm still salty about that. You have worked out how I figure out life with touch. You often place my hand under your hands to guide me to what you want me to feel. You have kissed me and you have told me how you feel when you know I can't understand. Thank you for this kindness. Once you threw me a metaphor about time and I clocked it out of the air. You tell me as I Chuck my notebook on the hood of your car.

55:41 Time is finite. You heard it in a song once and I haven't been able to track it down. The music you love is a library I try to learn. You say we have all the time we'll ever have, and our clock is ticking down. What will you do with the time left on your clock? And I wonder what it's like to be you, to be loved to my by me, to live in this sense intimate. Have your life turned to poetry? You left me your ring on the shower sill. And now when I see you, I check your ring finger and maybe you check mine. Drunk pirates in Newtown art galleries. Ask me about the boyfriend I have written about.

56:21 Ask me how I loved you through the Black Summer bushfires. Ask how your backyard was alight and burning. They stumble and hiccup. You must have really loved him. I grip my teeth and I make my pain stained face into a rosy love note. I tell the truth. Yeah, of course. He's a good one. The best. And I still count 17 roundabouts from the Arimba exit to my parents' house. Thank you. Rachel Williams, the Australian slam scene is richer for your presence and your work.

57:02 Canada's not going to know what hit them once you move to the cities and and start doing your thing again. Thank you so much for thinking with us and slamming with us today. Thank you so much for having me, Andrew. This was a joy and it's so good to have a podcast that it is pure slam and pure like what we do. So it's really cool to like spend this time talking to you about everything. So thank you, very welcome. Wait, you Big Sands, what's that all about?