Nikki Viveca - Love Poems, Limerence & Living Out Loud

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Slam poetry doesn't care if it's
perfect.

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It's down the slam.
It's the biggest poem I've got

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inside of she.
Was a thief.

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You love me.
It's love, a haunted house,

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yelling, angry blood black
nothingness began to spin.

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This day I hate pork.
Chops.

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I am the master.
I am the captain myself,

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straight out of State Library
Victoria.

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It's I think Therefore I Slam,
the podcast bringing you the

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best slam poetry and spoken word
artist from around Australia and

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beyond.
My name is Andrew and my guest

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today is a multidisciplinary
artist based in Nahm, Australia

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whose work spans stand up
comedy, performance poetry,

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theatre, dance, burlesque and
improvisation.

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As a 40 something Latvian
Australian trans woman, she

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brings a deeply personal and
unapologetically queer lens to

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her art.
She won both the Midsummer

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Poetry Slam and the Trans Poetry
Slam in 2019 and was a runner up

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for the Melbourne Spoken Word
Prize that same year where I

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first saw her perform.
Her solo shows include Asexual

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Healing, The Lazy Show and WASP
Movie.

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She's also performed in the
Lewis Trilogy at Sydney's

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Griffin Theatre and was part of
the acclaimed Cabaret Gender

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Euphoria, featured at Sydney
World Pride and awarded a

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Community Inspiration Award at
the 2023 Victorian Pride Awards.

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Please welcome Nikki Vivica.
Hello.

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Hi.
It's nice to be here.

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Thank you so much, Nikki, for
your, your help in just getting

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my pronunciation of your surname
correct because I've I've heard

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every, every variety.
Yeah, it's like it's actually

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Vivica is actually my second
name.

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Yes.
And I stopped using my actual

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sort of surname, my family name,
which is a hard to pronounce

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slightly a name.
And I thought, well, I guess my

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everyone knows the name Vivica.
Surely those famous ladies

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called Vivica.
Oh, it makes me.

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Think of like Vicki and Linda
the the duo.

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Oh yeah, cool.
Yeah.

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Yeah, but I mean, like there
were there were some famous

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Vivicus.
There's Vivica Fox is Vivica

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Linforces like a bunch of famous
Vivicus, but people mispronounce

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it wildly.
And I thought, oh great, I

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changed one hard to pronounce
name for another hard to

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pronounce name.
Well done.

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Joining the halls of, of, of
famous or notable vivekas,

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you're, you're here with us
today.

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We'd love to hear your first
piece.

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I know that you've put a lot of
thought into curating your, your

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three pieces today.
Can you tell us what you're

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about to perform?
Sure.

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Would you like to hear a recent
slamp on like well done

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recently, which I did for Rucker
Slam up in Brisbane.

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Oh yeah, I made disappointing
pancakes the other day.

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Do you have any idea how messed
up a pancake needs to be for me

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to be disappointed in it?
I fucking love pancakes and

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these ones are fucking
unlovable.

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Somehow simultaneously lumpy and
runny, both over and undercooked

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at the same time.
Not even drowning them in Maple

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syrup could save them.
Nothing could.

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They were bad cakes, sad cakes,
tragic cakes, trash cakes, and I

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ate them anyway, feeling that I
didn't deserve any better.

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The truth is, I was too gay to
cook that day.

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Thinking about your lips and not
paying attention.

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I've been trying not to to be
that gay.

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I've been trying hard to to not
think about your.

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But there is the evidence.
The hot mess on my plate.

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In my defense, I haven't
unpacked my kitchenware at the

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new place, and I didn't have a
sifter or a nice large bowl for

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mixing.
In my defense, you're lit.

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But now I've got the feeling
like I'd be a bad girlfriend who

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ruins her own favorite food and
probably can't be trusted not to

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make a mess of love too.
You don't really eat pancakes

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because of the gluten, so you
might not even know.

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We could kiss, that'd be cute.
We could keep kissing.

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That'd be and we could keep this
up and you'd never find out how

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bad of a girlfriend I secretly
was.

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My sad and terrible trash cakes
would be my secret shame when

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we're 80 and living in
Dalesfeed.

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One day you'd come home earlier
than expected and you'd catch me

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with a batch of them, shoveling
them into my face.

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You'd gasp and I'd say, don't
look at me, I'm a monster.

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The truth is, my gay shame
always takes new shapes,

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attaches to anything it can.
Bad because gay becomes bad at

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being gay, becomes the special
kind of bad who'd commit crimes

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against the noble crape.
And even in my wildest

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daydreams, you walk away because
of course you do.

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The very act of wanting makes me
afraid and somewhere an alarm is

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screaming and somewhere
something is burning, because

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again, I got to thinking about
your lips and got distracted.

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Very nice, Nikki.
Thank you for that.

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They, they say that, you know
breakfast is the most important

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meal of the day, right?
Maybe it's also the most poetic

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and the most meaningful.
It's it's look, it's my favorite

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meal.
Yeah, I love a breakfast.

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I love a breakfast out.
I love a breakfast in.

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It is the most poetic meal too,
because if you're writing a

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poem, if I'm writing a poem, I
often don't get out of my

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dressing gown.
Like I'll wake up with the idea

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and I'm not going to leave until
it's written and I will just

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flap about a house in my
dressing gown all day.

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And so breakfast is the meal I
will eat at some point in that

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process.
So if I am going to have a meal

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that goes to get the writing
poetry, usually breakfast.

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Breakfast are one of those
sneaky like 2:00 AM snacks

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'cause sometimes I write in the
middle of the night as well.

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I mean, look, there were
definitely times, you know, as a

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growing boy back in the day, you
know, I was, I was sometimes

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having like a second breakfast
for dinner.

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Like I just loved wheat pix that
much.

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Do you know what I mean?
And I feel like, do you feel

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like yesterday was the first
like true winter day in

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Melbourne?
So I wouldn't be surprised if

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there was a lot of dressing gown
action, a lot of Ooty action

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going on, maybe the whole day.
It's getting quite, Yeah, it's

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starting to get quite, quite
chilly at the moment.

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I enjoyed our sort of long, our
long, kind of like the long tail

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end of summer.
Try not to unpack what it might

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mean about the world climate too
much, but just enjoyed it.

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Leaned in.
I got beach time for much longer

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into the year than I normally
would, so I enjoyed that.

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But yeah, yeah, I do think, I do
think recent suddenly got very

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cold and I'm like suddenly
needing to do an inventory of

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how many boots and jumpers and
jackets and stuff I have.

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I feel I need to stock up.
I never feel ready.

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Well, you were, you know, you
were smart enough to escape the

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cold for a long time.
You're up north in in

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Queensland.
You said you performed this at

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at Ruckus Slam.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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How how was that?
I haven't heard much about

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Ruckus.
Can you paint the picture?

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For us, Ruckus is one of my
favorite slams in the country.

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I sort of learned about it quite
recently when I was like I went

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up to visit my family in
Queensland.

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It's where I sort of, sort of
grow up and there's not many

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pottery slams in Brisbane, but
there is this one called

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Rockets, which happens in like
it happens in a music venue,

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this wild venue going there.
It's got like there's animal

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heads on the walls.
And for a time how these animal

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heads were festooned with
woman's underwear, which

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apparently gets thrown.
Apparently people just, like,

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throw bras and stuff up there.
Yeah.

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So it's like it's got this real
sort of just like you wouldn't

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walk into a place like this in
Melbourne.

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It's a real QLD vibe to it.
There's kind of sort of slightly

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Wild West feel about it.
And then the slam is amazing.

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It's just like so high energy
and like instead of giving you

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numeric scores, you get a score
as a dinosaur.

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It's sort of dinosaur theme, but
it really inspires people to be

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very kind of loose and
outrageous with their poems.

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Like it's too like it's almost
too sort of outrageous for

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Melbourne.
Apparently somebody did try to

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make a Melbourne version of
Ruckus.

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Didn't take off with a serious,
serious finger clicking all

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black Plaid poet stand here it.
It's very much a Brisbane

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phenomenon, but it's so fun and
especially coming from me,

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coming from a stand up comedy
background, I sort of ran into

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poetry from stand up.
That kind of slightly wild

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energy about poetry where you
can do things that are

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outrageous, funny, unusual
there, that works really well in

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that context in Ruckus.
So I just had a blast when I

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went up there.
So I've done a couple of

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Ruckuses.
But if you're in Brisbane,

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absolutely go to it.
Sounds amazing shout out to

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Rucker slam Hope you're hope
you're listening and doing well.

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Now Nikki, let's jump in the
proverbial time machine.

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I'm interested in, you know
what, what is your origin story,

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so to speak, of starting to, to
share your work on stage and all

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the the wonderful ways that you
do nowadays.

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Well, it's it's one of those
ones that goes back a very long

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time because I always how fast
should we go back?

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Should we go right back to to
awkward teenage years?

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Sure, Yeah, there's lots of
gold.

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Probably.
Probably, yeah.

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So I grew up in very
conservative part of part of the

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country.
Yeah.

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And especially even more
conservative back then, theatres

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seemed to be the only kind of
place where Queen has existed.

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Like you could see artists being
queer.

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This is the 80s.
So like you're saying, you can

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see like some wildly queer and
gender transgressive film clips

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and stuff like that.
And people loved those artists.

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And you could watch, you could
watch Wild Gay late night game

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shows and stuff like that.
And that was fun.

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And people loved those artists.
And then when people talked

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about theatre, there's like,
theatre was like this seemed to

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be an absolute hotbed of gender
playful nurse and the queen as

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in all its forms.
And so I was like, that's what

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I'm going to do.
That's what I'm going to get

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into.
I'd say it took me several false

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starts in in life to sort of get
in there.

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I sort of really threw myself
into campus theatre when I was

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first at university.
Then I sort of wandered away

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from that for a bit.
Then when I went back to

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university, I threw myself into
campus theatre again.

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And then I got a job and I
wandered away from it again,

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blah, blah, blah.
I'd actually actually given up

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on the whole idea of being an
artist in that way when I

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started doing improv.
And that was just a, that was

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just a cute, fun thing to do
because I knew someone cute and

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fun who did it.
And so I just started doing

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that.
And then we used to do these

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shows like weekly in a pub.
And I was just like, yeah, cool,

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this is fun.
If I do this every week, I'm

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happy.
I'm just getting to perform a

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lot.
And there was something about

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taking the pressure off, taking
the pressure off like, oh,

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trying to get, I'm trying to get
a role, I'm trying to have a

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career, trying to be a serious
artist.

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I'm trying to say something.
You're just like, yeah, I just

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rock up and I have fun and I try
whatever I want on stage.

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And people are just turning up
to the pub.

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They're there with their beers,
their Palmers, and they're

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having, they're just open for
anything that happens on stage

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as well.
And there's something about that

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environment really sort of
helped me open up.

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And that's where I really became
a serious performer was doing

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that.
That's where I learned how to

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perform and it was mostly
through repetition.

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It was just like constantly
doing stuff like that because it

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was in profit enabled me to do
to play around with things I

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wouldn't normally.
You could play around with

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gender on stage, you could play
around with different character

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types on stage.
You weren't typecast according

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to who you were.
And so a lot of, yeah, a lot of

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00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:17,560
where I come from comes from
having sort of found myself

226
00:11:17,560 --> 00:11:20,160
straight through that context,
which I think is, is

227
00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:22,640
deliberately reaction to the
like the very high pressure I

228
00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:25,160
always felt I was under when I
was when I was growing up.

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And so I sort of went from the
next stage am I doing really

230
00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:31,640
going from improving to doing
comedy.

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00:11:31,640 --> 00:11:34,280
And that started because I
wanted to talk about my

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00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:37,000
sexuality, even though I, you
know, I used all sorts of terms

233
00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:38,520
of my sexuality.
I'm asexual.

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I found it was very hard to talk
about at that point.

235
00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:45,800
No one really knew what it was.
You couldn't, you couldn't talk

236
00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:49,280
about it and have anyone believe
you or take you seriously or

237
00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:52,920
even really know what you meant.
And when I was trying to write

238
00:11:53,800 --> 00:11:57,440
jokes and I was trying to write
stand up jokes and things like

239
00:11:57,440 --> 00:11:59,840
that, I was thinking for ages of
getting to stand up.

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00:11:59,840 --> 00:12:02,600
And I try to write these jokes
and I'd be like, they don't make

241
00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:03,680
any sense.
If you don't know what

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00:12:03,680 --> 00:12:08,640
asexuality is, they don't.
And I'd try to write jokes about

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00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:10,000
sex.
Like I spend a lot of time.

244
00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:12,120
I think it's probably a lot of
people do.

245
00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:16,520
I try to write sexy scenes and
things that I was writing.

246
00:12:16,520 --> 00:12:19,280
I tried to do jokes about
dating, whatever, and I've got

247
00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:24,280
no experience with any of that.
And so it wouldn't work.

248
00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:26,840
It wouldn't come across
convincingly and I ended up just

249
00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:28,920
like writing my comments about
it.

250
00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:32,840
I end up writing about
asexuality until I had material

251
00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:36,960
for a whole show and then some
friends were producing shows and

252
00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:39,840
I said, hey yeah, I've got 1.
And I did asexual healing the

253
00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:42,760
first season.
So I leapt straight into from

254
00:12:42,760 --> 00:12:47,040
just doing my little improv
shows to doing a whole hour of

255
00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:48,760
stand up.
Yeah, really.

256
00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:50,840
Personal stand up, Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.

257
00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:52,920
And it was.
And it was kind of just, I just

258
00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:55,120
did it to come out.
I just did it to come out.

259
00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:58,080
I was just like, well, I feel
too ashamed to like take up even

260
00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:01,400
5 minutes of conversation at A
at a table.

261
00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:04,400
As you might tell from my work,
I've have had a lot of

262
00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:06,800
complicated feelings about being
queer in my life.

263
00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:10,720
But I was just like, well, if I
just do an hour long show and I

264
00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:13,960
put asexual in the title, if
people come, they signed up for

265
00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:15,880
it, they've got to listen to me
talk about this for an hour.

266
00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:17,440
Yeah, and it's right there in
the title.

267
00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:20,640
Yeah, I know.
And so that's kind of what I

268
00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:23,280
did.
I was also, I was also just

269
00:13:23,280 --> 00:13:25,600
about to come out as trans at
that point.

270
00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:30,480
So when I did the very first
season of it, I was just about

271
00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:34,160
to start taking hormone therapy
and I thought this was gonna be

272
00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:36,280
like, it was gonna be like my
sort of parting shot.

273
00:13:36,280 --> 00:13:38,800
I didn't think I was gonna have
any kind of career after I came

274
00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:39,960
out.
I thought, well, that'll be,

275
00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:44,240
that'll be that then.
And here's all this material

276
00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:47,160
that I'd love to do.
I'm gonna do it all one time.

277
00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:50,440
I'll do my show and then I'll go
off into whatever the future

278
00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:52,720
holds for me, which is very
uncertain at that time.

279
00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:55,400
And yeah, then the show went
well and I've done that show

280
00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:57,800
quite a few times and I've done
other shows and I've had

281
00:13:57,840 --> 00:14:00,200
actually a whole art script
since then and.

282
00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:04,120
When did you you move to
Melbourne in amongst all this or

283
00:14:04,120 --> 00:14:06,400
did that come later?
Oh, no, I moved to Melbourne in

284
00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:07,480
my early 20s.
Yeah.

285
00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:08,440
Wonderful.
A long time ago.

286
00:14:08,560 --> 00:14:08,880
Yeah.
Good.

287
00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:12,320
So I sort of, yeah, I moved down
here and I did a bit of sort of

288
00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:14,880
alternative theater, sort of
movement theater kind of stuff,

289
00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:17,720
mostly through the campus drama
scene when I arrived in

290
00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:21,360
Melbourne.
So studying and I've, I've done

291
00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:23,880
bits of film and community TV
and a bunch of other things over

292
00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:25,360
the years.
I sort of keep, I kept on

293
00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:27,600
cycling back to, to trying to
get into the arts.

294
00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:30,920
I did a whole, I did a whole
like film diploma, a graduate

295
00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:32,800
deployment film.
I was going to be a film maker,

296
00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:34,240
documentary maker and all that
sort of stuff.

297
00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:37,680
Like I've kept on doing those
kind of kind of thing.

298
00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:39,880
So what I learned through doing
documentary though, was I just

299
00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:42,320
like talking about myself.
So I went on to doing

300
00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:45,280
autobiographical show.
Yeah, I did my documentary,

301
00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:47,720
which is meant meant to be about
some social issue, ended up

302
00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:50,000
being we just interviewed me and
I talked to Cameron.

303
00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:52,280
It was my story.
And that was just a

304
00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:54,360
foreshadowing of everything I
was going to do in my career.

305
00:14:54,880 --> 00:14:58,440
Since then, doing poetry came
about like when I sort of moved

306
00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:02,160
in during slam poetry, I was
actually invited to attend a

307
00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:03,920
women's spoken word night called
Mother Tongue.

308
00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:05,960
If you're in Melbourne, go check
out Mother Tongue.

309
00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:09,760
And I was there to do
storytelling, there to do

310
00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:13,360
storytelling and the sort of
storytelling by stand up, which

311
00:15:13,360 --> 00:15:15,600
I do.
And I saw all the poets getting

312
00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:18,680
up and I loved it so much.
I'm like, I wanna do, I wanna do

313
00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:20,440
this.
And I had one poem.

314
00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:23,840
I had one poem which I'd
written, which I've been in a

315
00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:25,840
workshop on decolonizing
theater.

316
00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:29,520
So I had this like empowerment
poem, which I'm just like, I'm

317
00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:31,240
gonna do it.
So I did my stand up

318
00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:35,000
storytelling bit and I'm like,
and I've got a poem and I did

319
00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:37,480
this poem and people loved it.
And then I was just like, okay,

320
00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:39,400
I'm a poet now.
Yeah, I've gotta do more of

321
00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:40,200
that.
Being blooded.

322
00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:43,800
There you go.
Yeah, Lovely, lovely.

323
00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:47,480
I love that, you know,
improvisation theatre was such a

324
00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:49,520
big part of kind of where where
you started out.

325
00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:53,320
I was lucky enough to to go see
Ben Schwartz and Friends at

326
00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:55,000
Hammer Hall a couple of weeks
ago.

327
00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:58,040
Amazing.
Like, you know, improv show.

328
00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:01,080
And, you know, I was raised on
reruns of you know, Whose Line

329
00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:03,360
is it Anyway?
So some people look at improv

330
00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:06,120
and they think it's kind of like
a lesser form, but it's it's

331
00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:07,680
not.
I think it's extremely

332
00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:11,560
challenging to just get any kind
of cohesion in it, let alone be

333
00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:13,360
enjoyable or funny for the the
audience.

334
00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:15,800
So yeah, just just a wonderful
art form, I reckon.

335
00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:18,560
Yeah, no, I loved it.
I first sort of encountered on a

336
00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:21,320
on a trip overseas.
I was in Vancouver or somewhere

337
00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:25,040
and I saw American improv, which
was at that point straights

338
00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:27,480
ahead of what we were doing in
in Australia.

339
00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:29,960
So actually you saw them do long
form improv as we were doing

340
00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:32,600
theatre sports games here and it
was just amazing.

341
00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:36,080
So yeah, then when it came to
sort of started happening more

342
00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:38,680
in Australia, I did.
I got in on that.

343
00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:43,200
I have this great story about
you, Nikki.

344
00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:47,400
So back in the 2023 Victorian
final of the Australian Poetry

345
00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:50,960
Slam, you were involved as the,
the sacrificial poet, as we call

346
00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:54,640
it, which is the poet that comes
up before the, I guess the the

347
00:16:55,040 --> 00:16:57,920
entrance, entrance for the other
people who are performing in the

348
00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:00,960
final is what I'm trying to say.
And you perform a piece in order

349
00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:04,000
to get like a benchmark score
from the judges that are there

350
00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:07,720
so that they can then it helps
them score everyone else kind of

351
00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:10,280
fairly and accurately.
So it's a very, very important

352
00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:11,839
role.
And I remember you came up and

353
00:17:11,839 --> 00:17:13,440
you did.
You did a great piece which I

354
00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:14,960
believe is called Ode to My
Pussy.

355
00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:17,480
That's correct.
And it was, it was wild, it was

356
00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:19,000
great.
I really enjoyed it.

357
00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:21,800
I do remember thinking though,
'cause I knew I had friends back

358
00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:25,480
home watching the live stream
and, you know, they had never

359
00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:27,680
seen any slam before.
This was their first taste of

360
00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:29,440
it.
And I just remember thinking, I

361
00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:33,280
was hoping that they could, you
know, if they felt a certain way

362
00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:34,880
about it, that they could get
over that hump and allow

363
00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:36,760
themselves to relax into the
experience.

364
00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:39,000
Do you know what I mean?
And and get through, I guess,

365
00:17:39,120 --> 00:17:41,280
whatever provocation they they
might have felt.

366
00:17:41,360 --> 00:17:44,200
I'm interested in, you know, are
they particular like

367
00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:47,800
conversations that you hope your
work sparks in people?

368
00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:53,840
I think for me, part of my
approach to representation and

369
00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:56,320
my work has often been about
representation, about whether

370
00:17:56,320 --> 00:18:00,000
I'm being on stage to talk about
being trans or to be on stage to

371
00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:03,560
talk about being ace or to
represent greenness in other

372
00:18:03,560 --> 00:18:05,760
ways.
My approach has always been to

373
00:18:05,760 --> 00:18:09,000
kind of normalize it.
Like, I actually don't have a

374
00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:12,080
lot of big.
Here's my poem about being

375
00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:14,240
trans.
Here's my poem about being nice.

376
00:18:14,360 --> 00:18:18,200
A lot of my work tends to be
more about everyday things like

377
00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:20,600
making pancakes badly or
something like that.

378
00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:23,400
And that there is a
consciousness to that process

379
00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:28,880
that when I go and see like a
comedian or a poet get up and

380
00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:31,480
they're like, I'm trans.
So here's my trans work.

381
00:18:32,360 --> 00:18:34,680
Part of me is always like, babe,
you don't have to do it.

382
00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:37,520
You don't have to other yourself
for everyone in this.

383
00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:39,960
Room they don't have to give
that disclaimer you.

384
00:18:39,960 --> 00:18:42,800
Don't have to, if people are
going to be curious about it,

385
00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:45,400
people are going to have like
noisy questions running in their

386
00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:47,240
minds.
They want to do it.

387
00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:50,600
But it's just like you don't
need to talk about what you want

388
00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:52,320
to.
If that's what you want to talk

389
00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:55,040
about, go for it.
But there is a big pressure and

390
00:18:55,040 --> 00:18:58,160
it's especially, it's especially
in comedy.

391
00:18:58,560 --> 00:19:01,240
But I'm not saying it would be
completely absent from poetry

392
00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:04,480
either.
There was a thing to really

393
00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:06,400
highlight your difference.
There's a thing that they tell

394
00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:08,800
you when you're learning how to
do comedy was like, Oh yeah, get

395
00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:10,640
up and make a joke about your
appearance or about your

396
00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:12,880
identity.
If it's anything different from

397
00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:15,880
being like a straight white sis
male, you know, if you're a

398
00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:17,200
woman, make a joke about being a
woman.

399
00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:19,760
If you're a person of color,
make a joke about that.

400
00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:22,080
And it's something I really
dislike.

401
00:19:22,120 --> 00:19:23,760
I'm like, I dislike the people
told to do that.

402
00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:27,560
I don't think people should
other themselves in performance.

403
00:19:27,560 --> 00:19:31,400
And so in my work, I consciously
work against that.

404
00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:34,240
I'm just like, I feel like
doing, I feel like talking about

405
00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:37,840
how I love to sleep in.
So you're going to listen to 5

406
00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:39,520
minutes of me talking about how
I love to sleep in.

407
00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:43,520
That's my material for today.
But I think it is important

408
00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:48,240
because there's a thing when
you, when people who aren't

409
00:19:48,360 --> 00:19:50,520
queer or maybe aren't out as
queer see queer people out in

410
00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:53,000
the world, we can feel like
we're from another planet.

411
00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:54,520
We can feel like we're from
somewhere different.

412
00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:58,800
I know when I was growing up, I,
you know, I saw a lot of queer

413
00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:01,920
people on the TV.
But they were on the TV, They

414
00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:06,120
weren't people like me.
You couldn't be like, you know,

415
00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:13,560
you couldn't be a nerdy Latvian
person in rural Queensland and

416
00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:16,880
be queer.
And so in terms of normalizing

417
00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:21,000
representation or showing myself
in that kind of normalized

418
00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:25,840
fashion on stage, it's both
about just letting other people

419
00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:27,760
who might be weirded out by
Queen Snow.

420
00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:29,600
It's just like, yeah, we're just
people like you with the same

421
00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:32,360
sort of things going on, my
queen.

422
00:20:32,360 --> 00:20:34,680
This is actually a very small
part of who I am.

423
00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:38,000
And also letting other people
who are maybe thinking of coming

424
00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:42,680
out know that, yeah, I can be
this kind of person.

425
00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:47,800
I don't have to be a massively
confident, massively sexy, you

426
00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:49,840
know, outrageous person to come
out as queer.

427
00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:54,880
I can just be a nerd who I like
sleeping in and pancakes or

428
00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:57,880
whatever The thing is.
Because there's that element,

429
00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:00,120
like you were saying in in
comedy, there's almost that

430
00:21:00,120 --> 00:21:02,640
element of self effacement, you
know what I mean?

431
00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:06,480
And if you're saying that that
was almost doubled down for for

432
00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:09,080
queer comedians, that, you know,
that was expected of them, Did

433
00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:11,560
you just find that that was
just, yeah, not, not helpful,

434
00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:15,280
that it kind of feels like, you
know, punching down to yourself

435
00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:19,400
in a way.
Yeah, yeah, I think, I think

436
00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:20,560
we've been doing it for a long
time.

437
00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:22,080
Comedy's been like that for a
long time.

438
00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:24,360
And people still get up and do
it and they still might get up

439
00:21:24,360 --> 00:21:26,600
and make jokes about themselves
in ways which they don't need

440
00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:30,120
to.
So, yeah, it is something I

441
00:21:30,120 --> 00:21:31,680
avoid.
I mean, it's, there's, there's a

442
00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:34,120
bit of there's a bit of kind of
give and take to it because like

443
00:21:34,120 --> 00:21:39,480
when I do, when I started doing
work about being asexual, partly

444
00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:44,520
I was inspired by especially gay
comedians I'd I'd seen who had

445
00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:47,760
really helped me understand
Queen is through their comedy

446
00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:50,640
and who'd really helped people
be OK with with gayness in

447
00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:53,800
society through their work.
And so there's a part of like, I

448
00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:56,240
am going to talk about it and I
am going to make jokes about it

449
00:21:56,280 --> 00:21:58,640
to help you everyone relax about
it like that.

450
00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:01,160
But at the same time, I'm not
going to be a comedian who does

451
00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:04,400
that as my thing.
Certainly as a poet, like some

452
00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:08,400
of my really early poems or big
identity poems, asexual life

453
00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:11,000
poem, which is for my biggest 1.
You can see it on YouTube.

454
00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:16,640
It's that one was my first big
slam poem, Improvised on the

455
00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:20,000
night, which I did it really.
Yeah, mostly I wrote it.

456
00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:21,360
I wrote it sitting in the
audience.

457
00:22:21,360 --> 00:22:22,720
I didn't think I was going to
get called up.

458
00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:24,600
And then I was like, Oh my God,
I've got to have a poem.

459
00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:28,120
I don't have a poem.
And so I kind of adapted a stand

460
00:22:28,120 --> 00:22:30,640
up set, which I've written into
a poem, sort of took the basis

461
00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:33,080
of the gag and and wrote it
there and then like improvised

462
00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:35,240
the actual poem on the night.
So every time I do it, it's a

463
00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:37,760
little bit different because
it's a little bit improvised.

464
00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:40,840
And then the next big slam I did
was say the trans slam.

465
00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:43,160
And so that poem I write kind of
overnight.

466
00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:47,200
The transgender Abci wrote that
overnight between the first

467
00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:49,440
round of the first round of the
slam and the second round of the

468
00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:51,600
slam.
And so some of those those big

469
00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:54,120
slam poems which I've done have
been like sort of identity

470
00:22:54,120 --> 00:22:57,280
based.
But yeah, a lot of my work in

471
00:22:57,280 --> 00:22:59,800
poetry doesn't necessarily go go
in there.

472
00:23:00,120 --> 00:23:05,080
I write a surprising number of
love poems for somebody who

473
00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:07,360
doesn't really date or have
relationships.

474
00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:12,120
I have a surprising number of
those which just started because

475
00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:15,120
friends were having a challenge
to write love poems and erotic

476
00:23:15,120 --> 00:23:16,640
poems and stuff like that.
And like, well, that'll be

477
00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:18,920
interesting to see what comes
out of me if I do that.

478
00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:22,080
And I find there's something,
there's something very

479
00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:26,000
creatively interesting in
engaging with something which I

480
00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:28,920
don't normally think about that
much on on a day-to-day level,

481
00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:32,280
which isn't that big a thing in
my life of just analyzing well,

482
00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:35,880
what are my feelings about this?
How do I feel in in those sort

483
00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:38,800
of scenarios?
So I've written quite a number

484
00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:42,640
of poems on those themes on sort
of erotic or romantic things

485
00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:43,520
like that.
Yeah.

486
00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:45,520
And then other times there's
different things going on in the

487
00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:48,160
world or in your life.
Will inspire will inspire a

488
00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:48,960
piece for you.
But.

489
00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:53,680
I think you know, a key piece of
this conversation as well is

490
00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:57,480
something like, you know what
Hannah Gatsby did with Nannette?

491
00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:00,800
You know, when Hannah decided to
to make a whole piece about how

492
00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:05,480
Hannah was leaving comedy behind
because that that element of

493
00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:07,640
self effacement had become kind
of too much.

494
00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:10,160
Now we know that that wasn't
it's turned out to not be

495
00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:13,520
Hannahs final show, but it
really started the conversation

496
00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:17,200
about what you share on stage
and and what that that does for

497
00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:19,240
you.
Like is it actually, are you

498
00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:21,960
doing your shadow work there
where you're you're disowning

499
00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:24,600
parts of yourself that you
should actually value and love?

500
00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:26,440
Yeah, no, I love the impact that
show.

501
00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:27,600
That show had.
It was so funny.

502
00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:31,000
Like I was doing Comedy Festival
that year and all my friends who

503
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:34,240
were doing comedy shows all ran
away and rewrote their shows.

504
00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:36,440
They're just like, oh God, what
am I doing?

505
00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:38,400
What am I doing?
And they went away and wrote

506
00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:41,400
different things.
I definitely sort of weighed my

507
00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:44,080
work with asexual healing up
against sort of things she

508
00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:45,520
talked about in and out.
Yeah.

509
00:24:46,120 --> 00:24:49,520
And I was just like, OK, what am
I doing to myself and to my

510
00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:53,000
identity in making a show about
this in in joking about this?

511
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:54,720
Am I facing myself for that
purpose?

512
00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:57,400
So I did sort of weigh that up
and decide that like, no, I'm

513
00:24:57,400 --> 00:24:59,400
doing these jokes.
And in this way to achieve a

514
00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:02,640
certain a certain purpose, that
I'm doing jokes about myself in

515
00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:05,480
a way which I find empowering in
a way which does help other

516
00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:08,240
people sort of get on board with
this, with this whole thing.

517
00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:12,680
It is funny like as I found over
over time, I think as I've

518
00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:16,640
gotten more confident as a
writer and a performer, I'm more

519
00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:18,280
willing.
I'm actually more willing to

520
00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:20,840
like step into things which are
outside the normal.

521
00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:23,960
Like when I started doing
comedy, for instance, I wouldn't

522
00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:26,360
do any jokes about dating or sex
or anything like that because

523
00:25:26,360 --> 00:25:29,080
I'm just like, I just don't know
anything about that.

524
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:30,800
But now I know more about joke
writing.

525
00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:33,240
So I do have jokes on those
topics and it's just like, I'm

526
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:36,000
kind of not in this.
It's kind of like it's kind of

527
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:39,520
ignoring my identity a bit for
the sake of a laugh, but I will

528
00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:41,200
sell myself out for the sake of
a laugh.

529
00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:42,720
You've got the mechanics down
pat.

530
00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:44,960
Yeah, you know the steps.
Yeah, And I've come up with a

531
00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:46,000
joke.
I'm like, well, I want to tell

532
00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:48,800
that joke.
So there is a thing like that.

533
00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:52,520
Sometimes I, I do deliberately
face myself on stage like that.

534
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:54,720
And sometimes it's because I
want it to be easier.

535
00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:57,280
Sometimes it's just like, I
don't want every time I get up

536
00:25:57,560 --> 00:25:59,800
to be like, hey, here's the
wacky thing about me.

537
00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:02,280
And sometimes I, you know, I
don't want it to always be

538
00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:05,440
engaging on a person like that.
Sometimes I just want to do a

539
00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:08,800
familiar type format which
people in the crowd are going to

540
00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:11,560
respond to.
And it is interesting doing

541
00:26:12,120 --> 00:26:15,080
poetry and stuff like that, like
how much poetry I do once I

542
00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:17,120
write romantic things and stuff
like that.

543
00:26:17,120 --> 00:26:19,840
Like all my poetry is
exceedingly honest and drawn

544
00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:23,160
from personal experiences.
But there is something in that

545
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:26,640
that people really relate to
love poetry as a format.

546
00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:29,040
It's something which people have
used poetry for, for a long,

547
00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:31,440
long time.
And people love listening to

548
00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:34,960
love poems.
People enjoy, people enjoy love

549
00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:38,000
poems, they enjoy romance and in
poetry and stuff like that.

550
00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:42,000
And so I've always found that
those poems are often ones which

551
00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:44,800
are quite popular, which often
land well with people.

552
00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:49,400
And it's sometimes I do feel
like, OK, so if people knowing

553
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:52,720
me mostly through writing all
these unrequited Stafford love

554
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:57,680
poems do am I sort of should I
be doing more poems specifically

555
00:26:57,680 --> 00:26:59,920
about my asexuality?
Should I be doing more poems,

556
00:26:59,920 --> 00:27:02,640
which is specifically talking
about my distance from it.

557
00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:08,120
But there is a thing, I think,
where I like working in the

558
00:27:08,120 --> 00:27:09,280
form.
Like, I love the form.

559
00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:13,320
I love the way people talk when
they're having big passions like

560
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:14,600
that.
Especially love heartbreak

561
00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:15,840
poetry.
That's I really.

562
00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:17,280
Yeah.
I love AI.

563
00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:19,520
Love a breakup song.
Yes.

564
00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:21,920
Come on baby, make it hurts.
Yeah, that's when people rarely

565
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:23,160
write.
That's when people rarely have

566
00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:25,000
big feelings and really need to
express them.

567
00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:29,040
And so there's something I love
being a part of that culturally.

568
00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:31,880
And I write things to be part of
that, that culturally, that

569
00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:33,480
thing, this thing which I really
like.

570
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:37,240
I mean, it's, there's also maybe
a bit of FOMO's not the right

571
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:40,000
word, but what is it that
feeling like when everybody's

572
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:42,280
feeling something really big and
you don't quite get it.

573
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:44,280
Yeah.
But you kind of wish you did.

574
00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:47,000
Like, you kind of wish you knew
what that was about or you wish

575
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:48,680
you could understand them on
that level.

576
00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:51,760
I guess it's a type of FOMO.
Yeah, but it's like you sort of,

577
00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:55,320
I think sometimes there's the
things we write about are things

578
00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:58,360
which which bug us or things
which we can't quite work out in

579
00:27:58,360 --> 00:28:00,240
our our minds.
And I'm sure there's people that

580
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:03,840
you're close to that you know,
you, you experience their

581
00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:06,800
emotional experience through
those things by osmosis, you

582
00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:10,160
know, And so you kind of pick up
on that wave, which, you know,

583
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:13,400
probably helps, helps bring
those pieces to life.

584
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:17,360
Yeah.
And I think it's that like, you

585
00:28:17,360 --> 00:28:19,640
know, certainly, like you can
see the way people react.

586
00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:24,240
You work like that, like your
poems, you know, they always

587
00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:26,720
come from some really deeply
personal space.

588
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:28,920
You're pulling something out
from a really deeply personal

589
00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:31,720
space, but no one is ever going
to fully get it.

590
00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:34,320
However, while you express, it
doesn't matter how perfectly put

591
00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:37,400
the words together, people are
going to listen to it and

592
00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:39,880
they're going to interpret it
through their own lens.

593
00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:42,640
They're going to listen to it
from their own lens.

594
00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:46,880
And so when they hear a love
poem, they're not really

595
00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:50,560
listening to you.
They're thinking about their own

596
00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:52,840
love affair.
They're thinking about their own

597
00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:55,240
emotional life.
And that is part of the reason

598
00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:57,520
why when I write poetry like
that, I always address it in

599
00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:00,160
second person.
It's always written to someone.

600
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:03,520
So people can find themselves in
it more, they can find

601
00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:05,800
themselves in that situation
more and they can make that

602
00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:07,960
connection.
And then if I also through that

603
00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:11,800
are aware that I, the ways in
which I interact with that side

604
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:16,520
of life differently and be like,
as a, as an asexual lady, she,

605
00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:19,040
she does a few things different
about the way she engages with

606
00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:20,960
that, then then we do, then that
helps.

607
00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:24,520
But you know, you are mostly
offering something for them, for

608
00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:27,920
the audience to interpret their
own, their own life and

609
00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:31,240
interpret their own emotions.
If you're comfortable, Nikki,

610
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:34,800
I'm wondering if we can talk
about asexuality a little bit

611
00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:39,840
more because, you know, I've
certainly had guests on talking

612
00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:43,440
about the experience of, of
being queer or being trans.

613
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:47,560
We haven't really talked a lot
about about asexuality.

614
00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:50,560
And and that wasn't that word
was not a part of like my

615
00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:54,840
lexicon till maybe 15 years ago
when I had a really close

616
00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:57,000
friends tell me that they were
asexual.

617
00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:02,600
And so I'm just wondering how, I
don't know how, if someone was

618
00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:05,800
to ask you what that experience
is like, how do you put words to

619
00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:11,640
it?
I'll quote one of my own shows,

620
00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:15,960
Sex for me, if I look at sex,
it's something like I said,

621
00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:19,920
something like Adam Sandler
films or or Test match cricket

622
00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:24,160
in that I can see that a lot of
people like it, but I don't

623
00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:26,920
quite get why.
And you know, upon occasion one

624
00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:28,640
to find myself sitting through
such a thing.

625
00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:31,960
And it's not necessarily it's
not necessarily the worst thing

626
00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:34,120
in the world.
It's like, OK, there are other

627
00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:37,440
people seem to be having fun in
this, all right, but you don't

628
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:39,680
feel the need to do it again.
I don't feel any particular need

629
00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:42,680
to do it again.
And I suppose over time my

630
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:44,720
relationship with sexuality has
changed a lot.

631
00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:47,120
It changes a lot in different
ways.

632
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:50,800
I've never been super into it.
It changes whether I find the

633
00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:54,840
thought of it absolutely
horrifying versus whether I just

634
00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:57,840
find it like, yeah, that's the
thing which a human can choose

635
00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:01,040
to do with the time, but I don't
choose to do it on a regular

636
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:02,960
basis.
And upon occasion, my life, I've

637
00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:05,280
been open to it and it's like,
Oh yeah, that was fine.

638
00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:06,720
I see why.
I guess I see why people like

639
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:08,000
that.
But then I don't rush out and do

640
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:10,360
it again.
It's just kind of like, you

641
00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:13,200
know, it's something you sort of
sort of dip into maybe maybe

642
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:15,680
dissing Adam Sandal films isn't
the best way to express that.

643
00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:17,480
No, I'm there.
I, I I'm not a fan.

644
00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:18,960
So yeah.
Yeah, but it's kind of like, but

645
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:21,800
it's kind of almost like, you
know, it's like something like

646
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:25,000
you've seen a movie, you're glad
you saw it, but you don't need

647
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:27,400
to watch it again.
Yeah, that's kind of what it's

648
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:28,840
like for me.
I think it's just like, yeah,

649
00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:31,000
there's an experience there.
It's important to engage with it

650
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:33,160
on some level.
It's important to understand

651
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:36,040
why, you know, sort of what it
is that people are are getting

652
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:38,560
into here.
But I'm not going to dedicate a

653
00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:41,240
large chunk of my life to that
because it's not that.

654
00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:43,960
It's not that significant.
There are other things too.

655
00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:47,680
Yeah, I remember when my mate
told me, you know, I was

656
00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:50,720
probably about 18 or something.
And I understand that this is a

657
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:53,720
very kind of vain and surface
level take.

658
00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:56,720
You know, I was, I was very
appreciative First off that, you

659
00:31:56,720 --> 00:31:59,040
know, they, they had the trust
in me to, to tell me that.

660
00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:02,160
I don't know how many people
he'd told that to at that point,

661
00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:05,800
but I remember as, you know, a,
a very, you know, sexually

662
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:08,880
frustrated 18 year old that, you
know, I was like, oh, Gee, that

663
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:11,480
must be nice.
That must be nice to like walk

664
00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:14,520
through life without, without
that going on all the time.

665
00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:16,240
But I understand that that's a
very, yeah.

666
00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:18,600
That's a very surface level
take, you know, Yeah.

667
00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:22,680
I mean, I think it probably is.
I think it's better, yeah.

668
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:25,120
I'm glad I don't have to deal
with that all the time.

669
00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:27,040
You've got one less
preoccupation, I suppose.

670
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:30,640
Yeah, I mean, certainly like
when when I do have crushes, I

671
00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:34,360
do have have crushes on people.
It's been a bit more of a recent

672
00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:35,680
thing.
It's been more of a bit of a

673
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:37,560
post lockdown thing, if I'm
being honest.

674
00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:41,400
That made me sort of lonely and
yearning in a way which I'm not

675
00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:43,120
normally.
But you know, I do have like

676
00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:45,640
occasional crushes on people and
they are.

677
00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:48,920
It is annoying to have a crush.
It's kind of annoying.

678
00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:50,280
It's.
Very disruptive.

679
00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:52,280
Yeah, it is.
It's like, I think part of the

680
00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:56,360
reason why I did a lot of that
sort of in the pandemic era is

681
00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:58,640
because it's just a good
distraction.

682
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:01,320
It's just a good dissociation.
You can think about this.

683
00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:03,760
You can think about that instead
of what's going on in the world,

684
00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:05,720
Just like just think yourself in
that for a long time.

685
00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:07,680
I don't think I've ever asked
someone this.

686
00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:12,080
Were you experiencing like
limerance as in, yeah, you know,

687
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:15,440
you might have had very limited
interaction with your crush, for

688
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:18,960
example, but you're like,
you're, you're head in the

689
00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:22,200
clouds imagining like every,
every little, every little thing

690
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:24,040
they do is magic or whatever,
you know, and you're, you're

691
00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:25,960
imagining life together, all
this kind of thing.

692
00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:28,200
This, you see it like all my
poems.

693
00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:30,800
I've got a book of poems.
I've got my iPad with poems on.

694
00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:32,760
I've got my phone, which has
also got a lot of poems on it.

695
00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:35,720
A lot of them came from a
limerant state.

696
00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:40,720
When I was in lockdown, I wrote
a lot of poems about a friend of

697
00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:44,280
mine who, I mean, I didn't know
them that well at the time.

698
00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:48,320
I didn't know them that well.
We met just before.

699
00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:50,480
I'll tell this story.
It's a silly story, but we had

700
00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:52,400
met just before the pandemic
happened.

701
00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:55,320
Then we went into lockdown and I
was like, Oh my God, I'm never

702
00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:57,800
going to see that person again.
And I wrote a poem about them.

703
00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:00,720
And I was like, that's a love
poem.

704
00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:03,280
And then I kept writing poems
about them.

705
00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:06,280
And then three years later, I
was still there writing lots of

706
00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:09,960
poems about and like, literally,
like after lockdown ended and we

707
00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:11,440
caught up whatever, just like,
yeah, we're friends.

708
00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:14,440
Cool.
It was entirely, it was this.

709
00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:15,320
I don't know.
Yeah.

710
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:17,880
It was an entirely Limerick kind
of state of just being like,

711
00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:20,320
yeah, this is a person I think
is amazing.

712
00:34:20,639 --> 00:34:22,600
I'm going to write poems about
them because I think they should

713
00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:25,520
have poems written about them.
But when you're actually, like

714
00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:27,120
there and hanging out, you're
just like, yeah, you're

715
00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:30,239
obviously just, there's bugs.
You're not, there's nothing's

716
00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:32,480
ever going to happen on that
level.

717
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:35,360
And a bit like the poem which I
read out earlier, like that

718
00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:39,719
pancakes poem, let's poem about
a subsequent, subsequent crush,

719
00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:42,440
a more recent crush.
But it's the same kind of thing.

720
00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:44,600
Like someone who's a friend of
mine.

721
00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:47,480
I think she's great.
I think we should have, like, I

722
00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:49,560
think she should have lots of
poems written about her, but

723
00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:51,320
we're just friends.
Yeah, that's what I mean.

724
00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:54,280
There's sort of something about.
I know there's something I find

725
00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:57,200
beautiful about love poetry,
love songs and things like that.

726
00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:00,920
And I think more of the amazing
people in my world should have

727
00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:03,040
artworks dedicated to them.
So I will.

728
00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:06,240
I will be the one to do that if
no one else will.

729
00:35:06,240 --> 00:35:10,000
I shall write poems and songs
about my amazing friends and how

730
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:12,440
great they are.
Do you share them with with the

731
00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:15,240
people you you write them about?
Yeah, anyone I've anyone I've

732
00:35:15,240 --> 00:35:18,080
written, I haven't because I
tend to write a lot of poems on,

733
00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:20,320
on themes.
So anyone I have written love

734
00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:23,200
poetry about, I've told them and
I've shared the poem, at least

735
00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:26,120
one of the poems with them.
Not necessarily all the poems,

736
00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:29,600
not necessarily all the
embarrassing poems, but at some

737
00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:32,920
point I've been like, hey, this
is a poem which I wrote and I

738
00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:36,360
was kind of inspired by you,
just so you know, FYI, because I

739
00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:38,880
think that's a nice thing to do
if you have done that.

740
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:41,400
And it's like it's sort of what
it's, it's there for.

741
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:44,200
It's, you know, writing a poem
about something, that's a

742
00:35:44,240 --> 00:35:45,920
beautiful thing to do.
Having a relationship with

743
00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:47,720
someone, I mean, that could go
very badly.

744
00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:49,520
That's not necessarily a nice
thing to do for someone.

745
00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:51,920
You might wreck someone's life.
There's a good chance that you

746
00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:54,640
will.
But a poem that's forever, and

747
00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:56,760
it's always nice.
It's got boundaries on it,

748
00:35:56,760 --> 00:35:59,160
doesn't it?
Yeah, it's got a start and end.

749
00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:01,880
It's its own little
self-contained story.

750
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:04,920
It does, and it's nice to the
things that are the things that

751
00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:07,520
I think are really, really
tragic in life are crashes which

752
00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:10,360
are never expressed, feelings
which never make it out, things

753
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:11,800
which are never spoken like
that.

754
00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:14,520
And that's kind of sad being
just like, oh, this person

755
00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:17,560
really influenced me or affected
me for a period of time in my

756
00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:18,720
life.
And they don't know.

757
00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:22,120
They might be sitting at home
just being like no one knows I

758
00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:23,920
exist.
But if they know that there was

759
00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:27,480
a poem written to them, then
maybe that maybe that's a

760
00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:30,200
positive thing in their life.
I think I would like, if anyone

761
00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:31,560
wants to write a poem to me,
please do it.

762
00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:32,680
I don't think anyone ever has
them.

763
00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:34,840
I would highly doubt it.
But if anyone wants to write a

764
00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:36,760
song, a poem to me, more than
welcome to.

765
00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:39,240
I think that would be nice.
Friends write their friends

766
00:36:39,240 --> 00:36:41,240
poems without their friends.
That's all we're saying.

767
00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:44,240
That's right.
That's that lockdown limerance.

768
00:36:44,240 --> 00:36:46,280
Yeah, I feel like it it kind of
got us all that.

769
00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:48,440
That's a great, that's a great
collection name actually.

770
00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:50,920
I'm going to write that down.
Lockdown limerance there.

771
00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:53,240
We'll, we'll, we'll race each
other for it.

772
00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:56,080
It's like I do.
Yeah, I do have like, so I wrote

773
00:36:56,080 --> 00:37:00,120
a lot of poems in that that
time, which I should, I should

774
00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:02,400
relate at some point.
I should, yeah, I should put

775
00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:03,880
them all out.
Looking forward to it.

776
00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:06,200
Thank you for for taking us
through that and using those

777
00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:08,760
those wonderful analogies as as
we went through that.

778
00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:11,080
I think it's time for peace #2
Nikki.

779
00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:15,200
Oh, sure, sure.
My God, we've been talking about

780
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:17,720
so much about lockdown poems.
OK, yeah.

781
00:37:17,720 --> 00:37:20,320
Look, let's, let's do this one.
I think this is a nice one.

782
00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:22,640
This poem I was telling you
about, the one which I write to

783
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:28,200
my to my friend, which ended up
ended up in a way, us becoming

784
00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:33,560
friends because of this.
Here's my heart, red like a

785
00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:38,960
brick wall, impenetrable.
There's no way in.

786
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:43,600
So I bother looking.
OK, there's a door, I suppose,

787
00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:48,680
but it's rusted shut and grown
over with Ivy, and even if you

788
00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:51,520
could pry it loose, it just
opens onto a second wall,

789
00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:54,040
another face of brick.
So it's not really much of A

790
00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:57,160
door at all.
Impenetrable.

791
00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:06,640
OK, there's a window if you look
hard, but it's also small and

792
00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:09,000
it's up so high.
Why would you risk that

793
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:14,400
breakneck climb when it's locked
anyway and never ever opened

794
00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:21,000
impenetrable.
So OK, maybe very occasionally

795
00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:25,840
it's open, but like only a
crack, just like really, really

796
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:30,440
just and snapshot quickly.
So watch your fingers.

797
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:35,000
Others have tried, they have
made the climb, they've gamely

798
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:39,400
delivered their invites.
Dear Madam, we politely request

799
00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:42,880
the pleasure of your affection.
No reply.

800
00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:48,040
Most go unread, unopened, uneven
fucking looked at.

801
00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:56,360
OK, maybe some get glanced over.
Maybe a rare one gets read

802
00:38:56,360 --> 00:39:00,120
twice.
Maybe if I look back I can find

803
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:04,840
times when I started drafting a
reply, but I just never

804
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:08,160
finished.
I just never sent.

805
00:39:08,240 --> 00:39:12,280
I just forgot I meant to send
because I forgot that I wanted

806
00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:15,720
to.
Like against all odds, I did

807
00:39:15,720 --> 00:39:18,680
catch a desire, but then
misplaced it.

808
00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:24,120
And I'll find a trace of it
months later, years, a lifetime,

809
00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:27,920
and wonder how something like
that just slipped my mind.

810
00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:32,080
And these feelings, meant to be
things that cling on

811
00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:37,040
resiliently, not get blown away
in the first breeze, scattered

812
00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:40,240
petals which you can't hope to
catch or ever reassemble into a

813
00:39:40,240 --> 00:39:46,040
flower.
So I'm writing this while this

814
00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:49,760
feeling is fresh, while my
mind's still on the time when

815
00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:53,240
our shy glances now.
Because I know I will.

816
00:39:53,240 --> 00:39:55,880
But in this moment, I don't want
to forget.

817
00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:01,160
But when I read this poem back
and I find it, probably with

818
00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:07,920
some surprise, months from now,
years, a lifetime, I want to

819
00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:10,680
remember what felt possible when
I looked into your eyes.

820
00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:14,880
I guess by then it's going to be
way too late to offer you this,

821
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:26,280
but here it is, my heart red.
Lovely.

822
00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:29,920
I, I, I think you're right in
terms of when people listen to

823
00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:32,840
love poems, you're right.
They're not, they're not hearing

824
00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:34,600
the direct experience.
They're, they're taking it

825
00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:36,440
through their own filter.
Maybe that's what it's like

826
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:38,960
with, with all art.
You know, we, we, we see the

827
00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:41,520
world as we are, not as it is
and that kind of.

828
00:40:41,520 --> 00:40:42,800
Thing.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

829
00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:44,240
That's exactly, that's exactly
what it is.

830
00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:47,440
Like, I was thinking about, you
know, you asked me that question

831
00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:51,400
about how people respond to it
and how people respond to art.

832
00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:54,880
I'm generally pretty good at
ignoring negative responses to

833
00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:56,120
things.
Like occasionally you get one.

834
00:40:56,120 --> 00:40:58,800
You're just like, well, it's
not, it can't be for everyone.

835
00:40:58,800 --> 00:40:59,920
I wouldn't want to be for
everyone.

836
00:40:59,960 --> 00:41:01,360
You.
Need to teach me how to do that.

837
00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:07,360
And but the ones I always find
weird are people who really like

838
00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:11,040
it but they've misunderstood it.
Like people get really into

839
00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:14,280
something.
I'm like, I'm such a fan of this

840
00:41:14,280 --> 00:41:17,080
work, blah, blah, blah.
And they're not getting it.

841
00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:20,240
And they sort of like as I don't
know how to respond to those

842
00:41:20,240 --> 00:41:22,600
situations because you're like,
yeah, that's not what I'm

843
00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:24,760
talking about.
That's not what the poem is

844
00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:28,440
about, but I'm glad you liked
it.

845
00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:31,200
I'm glad it touched you.
I'm glad it opened something in

846
00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:33,240
you.
Those are the ones which I find.

847
00:41:33,240 --> 00:41:35,080
Yeah.
I find difficult.

848
00:41:35,240 --> 00:41:38,480
Yes, sort of.
To not write over someone else's

849
00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:40,840
interpretation, no matter how
wild and out there in.

850
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:43,600
My, I know, I know.
And it's just like, but those

851
00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:45,720
are the ones which like, if
you've had someone like that,

852
00:41:45,720 --> 00:41:48,920
like someone's come up and
they've raved at you about a

853
00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:51,280
piece you've done, but they
clearly have not got it.

854
00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:53,480
They've clearly misunderstood
your identity on some level or

855
00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:55,920
somewhere with because that's
happened to me a few times.

856
00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:58,800
And for in, in different, in
different ways.

857
00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:01,920
And being trans, I'm really open
to a lot of lot of that kind of

858
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:03,960
stuff.
But being ace as well, it's

859
00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:07,840
people, people do very much
misunderstand what it is.

860
00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:12,160
And it's just like, I could not
have put more of my heart on

861
00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:14,920
stage for you.
I could not have opened myself

862
00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:19,520
up and revealed myself to you
any more honestly or personally

863
00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:22,840
or openly.
And still you walked away from

864
00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:25,400
that without attitude.
But that opinion of it, that

865
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:27,920
response.
And when that happens, that's

866
00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:29,880
when I come home, feel like,
well, I should just give it all

867
00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:30,160
up.
Why?

868
00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:33,720
I'll just, I'll just go and I'll
go and do a real estate course

869
00:42:33,720 --> 00:42:35,920
and I'll sell apartments in the
Gold Coast.

870
00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:38,800
I like, it's like those are the
things that make you sort of

871
00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:41,240
sort of wonders.
It's like, well, if I can't be

872
00:42:41,240 --> 00:42:44,120
doing more than I'm than I'm
doing in terms of honesty.

873
00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:46,520
And then you wonder, well, if
that's not reaching people, then

874
00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:47,760
what?
Then what it's going to.

875
00:42:48,240 --> 00:42:51,040
But then people do receive you
differently as a performer as

876
00:42:51,040 --> 00:42:53,160
well.
It's impossible to do anything

877
00:42:53,160 --> 00:42:57,880
on stage without people seeing
you as a performer, as a symbol,

878
00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:00,160
as a as an abstract in some
level.

879
00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:03,480
And so when I talk about really
personal stuff on stage, a lot

880
00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:06,400
of times people don't
necessarily get that this is

881
00:43:06,400 --> 00:43:09,480
actually me, that this is my
personal life there.

882
00:43:09,720 --> 00:43:12,520
Especially when I talk about
asexuality, I find that a lot.

883
00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:15,080
It's the flip side of having a
thing where I'm just like, I

884
00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:17,000
lead you one way and then I'm
like, ha, ha.

885
00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:19,600
Actually I'm not into the sex.
I'm not into that.

886
00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:22,400
I sort of do a bit of
misdirection like that on stage

887
00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:25,120
and some people will be there
thinking like, oh, that was a

888
00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:28,320
funny just misdirection.
That was that was a cleverly

889
00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:32,720
worked gag bit.
But they assume that I that was

890
00:43:32,720 --> 00:43:34,240
made-up.
They seem that it was just done

891
00:43:34,240 --> 00:43:37,560
like that for comic purposes.
And I think sometimes you can

892
00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:39,600
get that maybe with poetry as
well, where people are just

893
00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:42,640
like, Oh yeah, that was that was
beautifully expressed.

894
00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:45,160
But they don't actually connect
that that's you.

895
00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:48,200
There was a bit of artifice and
glamour and stuff around around

896
00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:50,720
being on stage.
But people can sometimes see you

897
00:43:50,720 --> 00:43:53,480
through that, that lens of
artifice and glamour and assume

898
00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:55,720
that the real you is more like
them.

899
00:43:56,920 --> 00:44:00,880
For me, my truer self I think is
a version who's on stage that's

900
00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:02,960
I'm most honest.
I struggle with being that

901
00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:04,640
honest with people on a
day-to-day basis.

902
00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:06,280
And I never talk about myself in
that level.

903
00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:08,520
But then on stage, I'll talk
about everything.

904
00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:10,760
I'll tell you everything.
I'll be myself on stage.

905
00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:13,640
And so yeah, that's that's a
reaction I've always found hard

906
00:44:13,640 --> 00:44:15,960
when people are just being like,
Oh my God, you're stage persona.

907
00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:21,360
I'm just like, it's me, it's me.
It's me.

908
00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:24,000
Do you think, do you think
sometimes it's can also be

909
00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:26,480
people taking things too literal
as well?

910
00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:28,400
I mean, I'm, I'm trying to
relate to some of the things

911
00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:29,960
you're saying.
And the only thing that's coming

912
00:44:29,960 --> 00:44:33,840
to mind is, is when I sat down
with someone performed a poem

913
00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:37,240
that talks about it talks about
Santa, but it's not about Santa,

914
00:44:37,240 --> 00:44:39,360
right?
It just uses that as a device.

915
00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:43,960
And then at the end they said,
oh, wow, that's a, that's,

916
00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:45,720
that's a really good.
And you know, it was, was

917
00:44:45,720 --> 00:44:47,600
sincere and whatever they said,
oh, that's really good.

918
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:50,800
You should, you should do that
in some kind of like Christmas

919
00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:54,280
based showcase or something.
And I thought he was taking the

920
00:44:54,280 --> 00:44:56,640
piss, but no, he was 100%
genuine.

921
00:44:56,640 --> 00:44:58,920
And I was like, it's really not
appropriate for that.

922
00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:00,800
It's not about that.
You know what I mean?

923
00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:04,040
Yeah.
On this note, can you talk about

924
00:45:04,360 --> 00:45:06,200
a recent piece?
Maybe it's your own, maybe it's

925
00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:10,320
someone else's that really
challenge you creatively or or

926
00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:13,520
emotionally.
My thinking of a couple of years

927
00:45:13,520 --> 00:45:17,760
ago, a friend of mine and I
wanted to create a show, like a

928
00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:21,320
full length show, a theater show
with a script being poetry.

929
00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:25,040
I was gonna write poetic text
for a whole theater show, and we

930
00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:28,480
were going to make this show.
But the goal was that we didn't.

931
00:45:28,480 --> 00:45:32,160
We wanted to make a show about
Queen is, which didn't rely on

932
00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:36,280
our pain or on our trauma,
because we thought a lot of

933
00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:39,080
queer art comes from that space
of pain and trauma.

934
00:45:39,360 --> 00:45:41,320
We're like, no, we're going to
make a show which is about

935
00:45:41,360 --> 00:45:44,320
imagine the world.
Imagine what the world would be

936
00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:49,080
if we, the queers, were not so
heavily influenced and

937
00:45:49,080 --> 00:45:51,400
identified by traumatic
experiences we've had from being

938
00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:53,560
queer.
Imagine if you took all that out

939
00:45:53,560 --> 00:45:56,480
of the world, who could we be?
What would the world be like?

940
00:45:56,560 --> 00:46:01,600
And so the show was a lot about
senses of self, the things that

941
00:46:01,600 --> 00:46:06,240
you love in yourself.
It was a lot about connecting

942
00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:11,280
with what you really wanted out
of life and out of the world.

943
00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:14,240
Not what you're told to want,
not what you're told you're

944
00:46:14,240 --> 00:46:16,400
allowed to have, but what you
really wanted.

945
00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:19,880
It was a lot about the sense of
home, sense of belonging.

946
00:46:20,960 --> 00:46:23,320
Things like that were often
challenging for you to queer

947
00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:27,240
people, often the concept of
home ain't necessarily that

948
00:46:27,240 --> 00:46:28,400
great.
It's a bit complicated.

949
00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:30,520
Can talk at length about that.
Just got back from rural

950
00:46:30,520 --> 00:46:33,520
Queensland.
That's a complex thing.

951
00:46:33,520 --> 00:46:37,520
It's a complex thing.
And so we set off with that as

952
00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:41,240
our goal to write it and it was
very challenging.

953
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:43,760
It was very challenging.
It was made more challenging by

954
00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:45,840
the fact that I did not have a
home at the time.

955
00:46:45,840 --> 00:46:49,240
I was riding it like a lot of
casual workers and artists have

956
00:46:49,240 --> 00:46:51,640
struggled a bit with the rental
crisis as it is in Melbourne at

957
00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:53,560
the moment.
And as I was sort of drifting

958
00:46:53,560 --> 00:46:56,040
around, popping from one place
to another, I read a bunch of it

959
00:46:56,280 --> 00:46:59,480
from motels because that's where
I was staying at the time and

960
00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:03,560
trying to do something which
captured that feeling of home,

961
00:47:03,560 --> 00:47:08,000
that warm feeling, that alter
the love and joy which we wanted

962
00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:11,800
to put into that that piece at a
time when life was not offering

963
00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:15,520
that.
And, you know, just confronting

964
00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:21,080
like how much for yourself your
life is influenced by senses of

965
00:47:21,080 --> 00:47:25,160
shame, of senses of fear,
anxiety and pain and things like

966
00:47:25,160 --> 00:47:26,760
that.
I'm just trying to separate that

967
00:47:26,760 --> 00:47:30,960
in myself, to still write honest
poetry out of that and that that

968
00:47:30,960 --> 00:47:33,960
doesn't talk to those things,
but talks to a different vision.

969
00:47:34,200 --> 00:47:37,840
I think like what we created in
the end wasn't exactly what we

970
00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:39,680
set out to create.
It had more of a sense of

971
00:47:39,680 --> 00:47:41,600
yearning for that.
But I think it worked.

972
00:47:41,840 --> 00:47:44,600
I think it worked very well.
We were very happy with it and

973
00:47:44,600 --> 00:47:46,400
people seemed to have really
responded to it.

974
00:47:47,720 --> 00:47:49,920
Did did you have to keep each
other in check during the

975
00:47:49,920 --> 00:47:54,040
creation?
You know, maybe you realized you

976
00:47:54,040 --> 00:47:57,080
were kind of veering off maybe
into, into material and you had

977
00:47:57,080 --> 00:47:58,360
to go, Oh no, we're not doing
that.

978
00:47:58,360 --> 00:48:00,640
We're coming back to the
yearning and the and the hope

979
00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:02,160
and the good stuff.
Was that what it was like?

980
00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:06,240
Well, the one of the gorgeous
things about that was like, I

981
00:48:06,240 --> 00:48:09,680
was just making words, but the
play was being interpreted by my

982
00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:11,400
friend.
He's a director and a bunch of

983
00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:13,760
other people who were acting in
it.

984
00:48:13,840 --> 00:48:15,960
And I would draw inspiration
from things the actors came up

985
00:48:15,960 --> 00:48:18,760
with or from things which the
director gave to me.

986
00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:21,200
But otherwise, I was mostly just
generating a lot of text,

987
00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:23,440
sending it to my friend and
she's putting it in orders.

988
00:48:23,440 --> 00:48:26,120
Just being like, yeah, this can
go in or that's like that's

989
00:48:26,120 --> 00:48:28,200
gonna go out or that should go
in.

990
00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:31,560
But it doesn't fit with the the
story we've got, so we won't do

991
00:48:31,560 --> 00:48:33,120
it.
So it was really good like that

992
00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:36,240
in that I could.
The thing is, when you're doing

993
00:48:36,240 --> 00:48:39,000
it yourself, you have to make
the final call on that.

994
00:48:39,160 --> 00:48:42,000
That was nice to just be, I'll
throw in everything I can and if

995
00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:44,640
something's too dark, too weird,
whatever, we cut it.

996
00:48:44,680 --> 00:48:47,200
And I'm very like, I love
working with other people.

997
00:48:47,200 --> 00:48:50,080
Like I love working with a drama
Turk or director or something

998
00:48:50,080 --> 00:48:53,240
like that on a piece because I'm
very open to changing stuff.

999
00:48:53,360 --> 00:48:55,440
I change my work all the time.
This comes from being an

1000
00:48:55,440 --> 00:48:58,320
improviser.
It's just like if I'm doing, you

1001
00:48:58,320 --> 00:49:00,360
know, I've written it one way,
but I'll do it another way if it

1002
00:49:00,560 --> 00:49:02,440
wants to.
Like my first poem where I

1003
00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:05,840
mentioned Dalesford gay paradise
of Victoria when I performed

1004
00:49:05,840 --> 00:49:08,040
that up in Brisbane, like when I
did that up at Rockets and I

1005
00:49:08,040 --> 00:49:10,160
said, well, I don't know
Dalesford so I changed it to

1006
00:49:10,160 --> 00:49:12,560
Mullaney sometimes goes haven of
lesbians.

1007
00:49:12,600 --> 00:49:15,880
So it's like, you know, I will
change my work all the time if I

1008
00:49:15,880 --> 00:49:18,480
think it's going to land better
a different way or if I think I

1009
00:49:18,480 --> 00:49:21,200
want to something to hit
differently.

1010
00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:24,680
And so I like working with
feedback and response to people.

1011
00:49:24,920 --> 00:49:27,760
And I know that often what I
write first is going to be maybe

1012
00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:31,320
a bit too dark, a bit too sad.
And then we can cut those bits.

1013
00:49:31,440 --> 00:49:34,000
And people are always very like
quite nervous about being.

1014
00:49:34,440 --> 00:49:37,200
I mean, I think it should be in
there, but I'm just like, it's

1015
00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:38,000
not working.
Lose it.

1016
00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:39,000
Too dark.
Lose it.

1017
00:49:39,480 --> 00:49:41,320
Yeah, it's great to have someone
like that.

1018
00:49:41,520 --> 00:49:44,400
You can you can work with
someone who who will actually

1019
00:49:44,400 --> 00:49:45,800
sort of balance off off like
that.

1020
00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:47,920
We all have our quirks as as
writers.

1021
00:49:48,600 --> 00:49:50,800
One of the things I find, you
know, obviously I do a lot of

1022
00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:53,200
work on my own.
I write for myself.

1023
00:49:53,320 --> 00:49:55,840
I'm going to perform it myself.
It's a little bit of an echo

1024
00:49:55,840 --> 00:49:58,320
chamber.
Some of my favorite pieces have

1025
00:49:58,320 --> 00:50:01,760
been ones which I wrote to be
performed by actors or which I

1026
00:50:01,760 --> 00:50:04,320
wrote like in reference to a
conversation with someone.

1027
00:50:04,320 --> 00:50:09,680
I wrote around interacting with
somebody else so that there is

1028
00:50:09,680 --> 00:50:13,280
another voice in there.
I'm altering my voice a bit for

1029
00:50:13,280 --> 00:50:16,680
other people to express more
universal emotions maybe, or I'm

1030
00:50:16,680 --> 00:50:20,360
just reigning in where I've gone
to self indulgent with the

1031
00:50:20,360 --> 00:50:21,920
thing.
And I'm just like, oh, OK, it

1032
00:50:21,920 --> 00:50:24,280
really doesn't need all that.
That's really meaningful to me.

1033
00:50:24,280 --> 00:50:26,960
But you know, your darlings get
rid of it and it gets better.

1034
00:50:26,960 --> 00:50:29,760
It always gets better, you know,
when you have that sort of sort

1035
00:50:29,880 --> 00:50:31,280
of give and take with other
artists and.

1036
00:50:31,600 --> 00:50:34,800
I think having a good editor or
Co creator is probably worth its

1037
00:50:34,800 --> 00:50:38,600
weight in gold.
If you, if you establish that

1038
00:50:38,640 --> 00:50:40,840
you know, you're here to, to
make each other better and that

1039
00:50:40,840 --> 00:50:44,320
that's not, you know, when they,
when they maybe question

1040
00:50:44,320 --> 00:50:47,120
something that you've included,
it's not a personal attack kind

1041
00:50:47,120 --> 00:50:49,920
of thing.
It's it's to make the vision

1042
00:50:49,960 --> 00:50:52,000
sharper and to come.
To life, yeah, sure.

1043
00:50:52,200 --> 00:50:54,520
Because the big thing with like
watching somebody else watching

1044
00:50:54,520 --> 00:50:58,360
your work is you're seeing how
they react to it both how they,

1045
00:50:58,800 --> 00:51:00,440
whether they understand it,
whether they're getting it,

1046
00:51:00,440 --> 00:51:03,200
whether the message they get is
a message that you want to give,

1047
00:51:03,600 --> 00:51:05,240
whether they're coming with the
feelings that you want them to

1048
00:51:05,240 --> 00:51:07,320
have.
And on that micro level of

1049
00:51:07,320 --> 00:51:10,280
seeing like every moment, it's
like, I want that line to land

1050
00:51:10,280 --> 00:51:12,360
this way.
Does it land this way with the

1051
00:51:12,360 --> 00:51:15,120
audience?
If it doesn't, then you change

1052
00:51:15,120 --> 00:51:18,920
the line, you move it around,
just try to reach them like

1053
00:51:18,920 --> 00:51:20,800
that.
So it's really good that to do

1054
00:51:20,800 --> 00:51:24,480
that with one person or a small
group of people and see how

1055
00:51:24,480 --> 00:51:27,840
they're reacting, especially if
they're like, oh, this is the

1056
00:51:27,840 --> 00:51:30,480
kind of person I want to do my
poem to.

1057
00:51:31,120 --> 00:51:32,880
You can't do it for everyone.
There's always going to be

1058
00:51:32,880 --> 00:51:34,440
somebody who takes a weird take
on it.

1059
00:51:34,760 --> 00:51:37,400
But if you write it for a
specific person or group of

1060
00:51:37,400 --> 00:51:40,080
people and you see how they
react and and move your work

1061
00:51:40,080 --> 00:51:42,200
around them, that's a very
helpful part of the process.

1062
00:51:43,880 --> 00:51:47,200
Interesting.
Returning to, I guess the

1063
00:51:47,200 --> 00:51:51,960
specifics of of poetry and
poetry creation, I want to deep

1064
00:51:51,960 --> 00:51:54,720
dive a little bit into your
particular creative process.

1065
00:51:54,720 --> 00:51:56,920
You know, as much as we can have
words for it.

1066
00:51:57,200 --> 00:52:02,920
How do you go from one to 100 of
forming an idea, a structure and

1067
00:52:02,920 --> 00:52:05,880
then and then sharpening it into
a final piece?

1068
00:52:06,320 --> 00:52:10,320
You know, does it does it come
down to very concrete stages or

1069
00:52:10,320 --> 00:52:12,640
is it a little bit of a soup or
what's it like for you?

1070
00:52:12,640 --> 00:52:14,320
A.
Lot of my work gets written very

1071
00:52:14,320 --> 00:52:17,280
fast when I do it.
A lot of it's written in a big

1072
00:52:17,280 --> 00:52:20,280
rush.
It's not necessarily finished

1073
00:52:20,280 --> 00:52:23,160
very fast.
I usually need to know that I'm

1074
00:52:23,160 --> 00:52:26,440
performing something to actually
finish it, otherwise it'll sit

1075
00:52:26,440 --> 00:52:27,360
there for a while.
Cool.

1076
00:52:27,840 --> 00:52:30,520
The pressure performance or not
pressure, that's not the right

1077
00:52:30,520 --> 00:52:31,440
works.
I love performing.

1078
00:52:31,440 --> 00:52:33,240
It's the excitement of
performance, motivation.

1079
00:52:33,240 --> 00:52:35,200
It's like I'm going to do that
tonight.

1080
00:52:35,480 --> 00:52:38,000
And that's what I make the
clearest decisions about what

1081
00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:41,280
I'm doing.
So with, as I say with both of

1082
00:52:41,280 --> 00:52:45,160
the poems which I've done today,
both of them are poems which I

1083
00:52:45,160 --> 00:52:48,120
write in the moment when I was
having the feelings, like I've

1084
00:52:48,120 --> 00:52:49,760
got this feeling now, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah.

1085
00:52:50,000 --> 00:52:51,920
And I just write it out.
I get the analogy for what I'm

1086
00:52:52,040 --> 00:52:55,240
feeling.
I do just like a, an absolute

1087
00:52:55,320 --> 00:52:58,440
sort of brain blurt about it.
I just get it out there.

1088
00:52:59,080 --> 00:53:01,160
And then both of those poems
took a long time to finish.

1089
00:53:01,200 --> 00:53:04,440
One of them, Like the Heart Like
a Brick, took probably over a

1090
00:53:04,440 --> 00:53:07,200
year I think, before I had the
final version of it.

1091
00:53:07,320 --> 00:53:10,000
Like I written this thing I
didn't really know.

1092
00:53:10,000 --> 00:53:12,200
I didn't really know what I was
trying to say.

1093
00:53:12,200 --> 00:53:14,480
It changed quite a lot.
Some of the key analogies are

1094
00:53:14,480 --> 00:53:17,320
still there, but it was a very
different piece by the time I

1095
00:53:17,320 --> 00:53:20,040
finally finished it.
And the pancakes one too as

1096
00:53:20,040 --> 00:53:22,760
well.
I just wrote it in a blurt after

1097
00:53:22,760 --> 00:53:27,040
I'd literally, I've done some
horrible pancake true story.

1098
00:53:27,520 --> 00:53:30,400
And it was like, but it was
months later before I actually

1099
00:53:30,440 --> 00:53:33,680
was just like, no, this, this
thing that I wrote then is a

1100
00:53:33,680 --> 00:53:35,760
poem.
I can, I can wrap it up.

1101
00:53:36,240 --> 00:53:39,280
Also sort of in both cases, I've
kind of gone through the whole

1102
00:53:40,000 --> 00:53:44,240
cycle of having those things and
that like I had that feeling I'd

1103
00:53:44,240 --> 00:53:47,920
sort of gone whatever journey I
was going to go with that

1104
00:53:47,920 --> 00:53:49,680
person.
And then by the time I'm sort of

1105
00:53:49,680 --> 00:53:51,560
like, OK, now I know what I was
doing.

1106
00:53:51,560 --> 00:53:54,680
Now I know what I was thinking.
Now I know how to say it and

1107
00:53:54,680 --> 00:53:58,320
sort of took both that moment of
like, getting it when it's raw,

1108
00:53:58,320 --> 00:54:02,760
getting the feeling when it's
when it's fresh and you're in it

1109
00:54:02,760 --> 00:54:05,840
and you're not looking back on
it with hindsight or anything

1110
00:54:05,840 --> 00:54:07,240
like that.
Because, you know, we write a

1111
00:54:07,240 --> 00:54:08,920
lot of poems from hindsight,
obviously.

1112
00:54:08,920 --> 00:54:10,960
But it's just like, it's really
good to be able to capture it

1113
00:54:10,960 --> 00:54:13,880
when it's alive and in front of
you.

1114
00:54:14,120 --> 00:54:16,200
But of course, you can't express
yourself well in that moment.

1115
00:54:16,200 --> 00:54:18,600
And that's that case of like,
OK, I've got the thing which I'm

1116
00:54:18,600 --> 00:54:21,600
trying to say now I work out how
I say it.

1117
00:54:21,760 --> 00:54:24,400
Yeah.
And so in those cases it can

1118
00:54:24,400 --> 00:54:28,800
take, they could take quite a
long time to make those those

1119
00:54:28,800 --> 00:54:31,960
things happen.
I find for me, there's a few

1120
00:54:31,960 --> 00:54:34,400
things which help me actually
like get something over the

1121
00:54:34,400 --> 00:54:35,680
line, like get something
finished.

1122
00:54:36,520 --> 00:54:37,840
It needs to be quite intense for
me.

1123
00:54:37,960 --> 00:54:40,560
Usually in performance, as I
said, if I know I've got a show

1124
00:54:40,560 --> 00:54:43,480
coming up and I want to do a
particular piece so I can put

1125
00:54:43,480 --> 00:54:46,920
out a piece I've had sitting
there for months and I can be

1126
00:54:46,920 --> 00:54:50,480
like what it needs is ABCDEFT
and I'll do it and it'll be

1127
00:54:50,480 --> 00:54:52,400
good.
But I will not do that edit

1128
00:54:52,440 --> 00:54:53,880
unless I know I'm going to do it
on stage.

1129
00:54:54,000 --> 00:54:56,440
Once I know I'm doing it on
stage, then my performer brain

1130
00:54:56,440 --> 00:54:58,440
kicks in and I work out what
it's going to need and sometimes

1131
00:54:58,440 --> 00:55:00,480
I'll start doing it on stage.
I'll be like, Nope, that line's

1132
00:55:00,480 --> 00:55:02,320
gone.
I'm not doing that line that

1133
00:55:02,320 --> 00:55:04,360
way.
The way it's written in front of

1134
00:55:04,360 --> 00:55:06,600
me.
I've got scripts for poems and

1135
00:55:06,800 --> 00:55:09,200
they're still written the
original way, but every time I

1136
00:55:09,200 --> 00:55:10,560
perform them, I make the same
change.

1137
00:55:11,200 --> 00:55:12,680
I want to perform it and I
haven't changed it in the

1138
00:55:12,680 --> 00:55:14,760
script, but I changed it in my
brain.

1139
00:55:14,760 --> 00:55:16,800
My performing brain is just
like, no, it needs this.

1140
00:55:16,840 --> 00:55:20,120
So that really helps.
The other thing I do is I do

1141
00:55:20,120 --> 00:55:22,320
write with music a lot.
I do a lot of writing with

1142
00:55:22,320 --> 00:55:26,680
music, and then it's like I get
a piece of music which has the

1143
00:55:26,680 --> 00:55:28,800
same emotions that I want.
I'm like, yeah, that's got the

1144
00:55:28,800 --> 00:55:31,040
emotions that I want that piece
there.

1145
00:55:32,200 --> 00:55:35,120
And then I play that on repeat.
Sometimes it's one song,

1146
00:55:35,120 --> 00:55:36,920
sometimes it's a few songs.
If I'm lucky.

1147
00:55:36,920 --> 00:55:38,640
It's an album.
I get to listen to an album on

1148
00:55:38,640 --> 00:55:40,080
repeat.
But sometimes it's literally

1149
00:55:40,080 --> 00:55:43,960
just like Nope this song is
going to psych around every 3 to

1150
00:55:43,960 --> 00:55:47,000
5 minutes and I was going to
listen to it again while I write

1151
00:55:47,000 --> 00:55:48,840
this.
What's the last song you did

1152
00:55:48,840 --> 00:55:51,320
that for?
That was that was on on repeat

1153
00:55:51,360 --> 00:55:55,400
for your writing.
It's not necessary even all that

1154
00:55:56,840 --> 00:56:00,960
all that relevant to a piece
like when I wrote like

1155
00:56:02,120 --> 00:56:06,120
transgender ABC, which is, you
know, one of my big slamming

1156
00:56:06,120 --> 00:56:09,640
poems and the one I did in in
Gender Euphoria, it was and I

1157
00:56:09,640 --> 00:56:12,400
wrote it very quickly, like in I
think it was 48 hours between

1158
00:56:12,680 --> 00:56:15,320
one slam and the next.
I think it was a night off in

1159
00:56:15,320 --> 00:56:17,320
between.
And I wrote it all in that

1160
00:56:17,320 --> 00:56:20,000
period of time.
And I had a Vampire Weekend

1161
00:56:20,000 --> 00:56:22,240
song.
I think it was Harmony Hall was

1162
00:56:22,240 --> 00:56:23,760
on nothing to do with being
trans.

1163
00:56:24,040 --> 00:56:27,880
It's just, it's just an
emotional song and a good song.

1164
00:56:28,080 --> 00:56:30,200
I love the the, the motion in
it.

1165
00:56:30,200 --> 00:56:33,680
It's sort of touching things and
it was kind of like a comfort

1166
00:56:33,680 --> 00:56:36,600
song for me at the time.
I just had that on repeat, on

1167
00:56:36,600 --> 00:56:38,920
repeat, on repeat.
I'm listening to that and if I'm

1168
00:56:38,920 --> 00:56:42,000
listening to the song, then I'm
writing the poem and it's got

1169
00:56:42,000 --> 00:56:44,760
the right kind of, it's got the
right kind of vibe.

1170
00:56:44,760 --> 00:56:48,120
It's got that mixture between,
oh, I've actually got to think

1171
00:56:48,120 --> 00:56:50,960
about why that song.
I think it's the mixture between

1172
00:56:50,960 --> 00:56:55,200
Vampire Weekends inherent
steppiness and cuteness and the

1173
00:56:55,400 --> 00:56:59,480
dark undertones of that song, as
well as their song about stuff

1174
00:56:59,480 --> 00:57:01,040
happening in America, all of
that.

1175
00:57:01,040 --> 00:57:03,960
We won't go into it now, but you
know, so it's like this, this

1176
00:57:03,960 --> 00:57:07,320
kind of like, yeah, it's a, it's
a boppy sounding song, but it's

1177
00:57:07,320 --> 00:57:10,040
really dark.
And that was kind of like,

1178
00:57:10,040 --> 00:57:13,360
that's emotion, the emotion I'm
going for, I'm doing a poem,

1179
00:57:13,360 --> 00:57:15,920
which is going to be, this is
going to be happy, it's going to

1180
00:57:15,920 --> 00:57:17,640
be funny.
Ultimately it's going to be

1181
00:57:17,640 --> 00:57:20,000
empowering.
And it's also going to go in all

1182
00:57:20,000 --> 00:57:22,000
the dark places.
It's going to hit you in your

1183
00:57:22,000 --> 00:57:24,000
fields multiple times over the
course of it.

1184
00:57:24,000 --> 00:57:26,960
And so I needed a piece of music
which does that to me.

1185
00:57:27,200 --> 00:57:29,840
And if I'm listening to someone
which does that to me, then that

1186
00:57:29,840 --> 00:57:32,200
helps me work out how I'm going
to do that to someone else.

1187
00:57:32,440 --> 00:57:35,480
You needed something in the same
genre rather than just the

1188
00:57:35,480 --> 00:57:37,800
content, yeah.
Yeah, yeah, it's about, it's

1189
00:57:37,800 --> 00:57:40,160
about the emotional effect.
It's about the emotional effect

1190
00:57:40,160 --> 00:57:41,960
of the the music.
So if you're wanting to write

1191
00:57:41,960 --> 00:57:44,640
something really sort of lush
and drawn out isn't the lush and

1192
00:57:44,640 --> 00:57:46,360
drawn out music.
If you want to write something

1193
00:57:46,360 --> 00:57:49,320
really urgent, you know, you're
like urgent kind of kind of

1194
00:57:49,320 --> 00:57:52,360
music.
I know you just sort of, yeah,

1195
00:57:52,360 --> 00:57:54,720
just need to be in that world.
I need to be in the emotional

1196
00:57:54,720 --> 00:57:56,520
world of that song.
Because the more you listen to

1197
00:57:56,520 --> 00:57:59,280
it too, the more the lyrics and
stuff kind of fade out.

1198
00:57:59,920 --> 00:58:03,680
You're just getting it becomes a
like a Disturbed, raw conduit of

1199
00:58:03,680 --> 00:58:06,680
emotion, just like, oh, yeah, I
hear that line and that bit

1200
00:58:06,680 --> 00:58:09,280
where his voice does that.
My heart does this.

1201
00:58:09,600 --> 00:58:10,960
And I want my heart to keep
doing that.

1202
00:58:11,120 --> 00:58:12,320
I want my heart to keep doing
that.

1203
00:58:12,320 --> 00:58:15,160
I think so that then it's in the
space to write the poem and it's

1204
00:58:15,160 --> 00:58:18,880
almost like it almost feels like
we're driving insane to do it.

1205
00:58:18,880 --> 00:58:21,520
But like it feels like if you
could just play like just that

1206
00:58:21,520 --> 00:58:23,680
bit which gets here, you know,
and the song is off in a bit,

1207
00:58:23,680 --> 00:58:25,120
like there's a key change or the
doffler.

1208
00:58:25,120 --> 00:58:26,080
There's something which the
free.

1209
00:58:26,080 --> 00:58:28,160
Song.
Is like, oh, that always makes

1210
00:58:28,160 --> 00:58:29,800
me feel that way.
And just like, I just want to

1211
00:58:29,800 --> 00:58:32,200
listen to that over and over.
I just want that feeling over

1212
00:58:32,200 --> 00:58:33,840
and over again because that's
intensity feeling.

1213
00:58:33,840 --> 00:58:36,240
I want to make an intense
slample.

1214
00:58:36,480 --> 00:58:38,280
Yeah, you're right.
Yeah, I think, I think the

1215
00:58:38,280 --> 00:58:41,120
French term is frisson, yes.
Yes, Frisson's got both.

1216
00:58:41,120 --> 00:58:44,160
Yeah, that the tingling on the
back of the neck, you know,

1217
00:58:44,200 --> 00:58:47,040
whether it's, I don't know,
whether it's AU Two song or

1218
00:58:47,040 --> 00:58:49,840
Charlie XX or whatever, there's,
there's plenty of good stuff out

1219
00:58:49,840 --> 00:58:52,080
there.
And yeah, I think we all want to

1220
00:58:52,080 --> 00:58:54,120
create stuff that has that
effect on people.

1221
00:58:54,120 --> 00:58:57,600
So why not immerse yourself in
all the things that bring that

1222
00:58:57,600 --> 00:58:59,320
out in your own experience in
your body?

1223
00:58:59,520 --> 00:59:03,240
I love, I love that we live in
an era of, you know, just having

1224
00:59:03,280 --> 00:59:06,960
headphones and music on tap on
the Internet and stuff like

1225
00:59:06,960 --> 00:59:08,120
that.
Yeah, it's a lot of things I

1226
00:59:08,120 --> 00:59:10,800
don't like about the modern
world, but that's one thing I do

1227
00:59:10,800 --> 00:59:14,640
like because it enables me to
listen to to music in this sort

1228
00:59:14,640 --> 00:59:17,240
of slightly unhindered manner
which enables me to create.

1229
00:59:17,360 --> 00:59:19,480
Yeah, we're all, well, we're all
music junkies at the end of the

1230
00:59:19,480 --> 00:59:22,040
day, looking for the right one.
Thanks for that.

1231
00:59:22,040 --> 00:59:26,040
Nikki, What's next for you?
What kind of things are you kind

1232
00:59:26,120 --> 00:59:29,080
of working towards or working on
for the rest of 2025?

1233
00:59:29,080 --> 00:59:30,120
Oh.
My God.

1234
00:59:30,240 --> 00:59:33,640
Well, The thing is, I've got
myself caught up in big

1235
00:59:34,200 --> 00:59:35,400
protests.
Right.

1236
00:59:35,640 --> 00:59:41,160
Thing is, I in the last sort of
year, I had some really big like

1237
00:59:41,160 --> 00:59:45,000
kind of peak moments, like I did
this big shop in Sydney, which

1238
00:59:45,000 --> 00:59:51,560
was amazing, amazing experience.
I was working on AI got a grant

1239
00:59:51,560 --> 00:59:54,320
to write a play.
It's a poetry play which I was

1240
00:59:54,320 --> 00:59:57,520
working on.
And so because I had the grant,

1241
00:59:57,520 --> 01:00:00,520
I was going to all these poetry
slams, all these poetry nights

1242
01:00:01,320 --> 01:00:02,640
and I was writing a lot of
poetry.

1243
01:00:02,640 --> 01:00:05,040
I was hearing a lot of poetry.
I was writing a lot of poetry.

1244
01:00:05,640 --> 01:00:09,480
And that's when I did like I did
Bankstown poetry slam in Sydney.

1245
01:00:09,480 --> 01:00:11,960
I did rock a slam up in
Brisbane, a bunch of things down

1246
01:00:11,960 --> 01:00:14,280
here as well.
And I got.

1247
01:00:14,640 --> 01:00:17,120
You know, then I got into finals
like of these, these ones.

1248
01:00:17,120 --> 01:00:19,040
So I went up to Rochester, their
annual final.

1249
01:00:19,040 --> 01:00:22,840
I went up to earlier this year,
I went up to Sydney and did the

1250
01:00:22,840 --> 01:00:25,400
Bankstown Poetry Slam Grand Slam
in the Opera House.

1251
01:00:25,920 --> 01:00:29,760
So that was amazing during slam
poetry to, you know, 2000 seat

1252
01:00:29,760 --> 01:00:33,080
rumor in the concert hall.
And that's like just the sound

1253
01:00:33,080 --> 01:00:34,880
of everybody clicking their
fingers.

1254
01:00:34,920 --> 01:00:36,280
Were you?
Were you in a team?

1255
01:00:36,480 --> 01:00:38,240
Yes, I was.
Yeah, OK, great.

1256
01:00:38,240 --> 01:00:40,800
How did they go?
Nikki and the Sam's What's our

1257
01:00:40,800 --> 01:00:44,000
team?
We're really proud of what we

1258
01:00:44,000 --> 01:00:44,520
did.
Yeah.

1259
01:00:44,880 --> 01:00:46,320
It's like we didn't win
anything.

1260
01:00:46,320 --> 01:00:48,640
We set the hearts of the
audience.

1261
01:00:48,800 --> 01:00:52,160
I think we got some beautiful
audience reactions.

1262
01:00:52,200 --> 01:00:55,160
Just the the sound of all the
clicking, I'll never forget.

1263
01:00:55,400 --> 01:00:58,680
That was magical.
But also we got, we had one line

1264
01:00:58,680 --> 01:01:01,480
where we had four of us and we
split the line between four of

1265
01:01:01,480 --> 01:01:04,160
us and we sort of passed the
line down and we got this huge

1266
01:01:04,160 --> 01:01:07,600
tier which made us go over our
time limit on the poem because

1267
01:01:07,600 --> 01:01:10,080
everyone was cheering too loud
and I couldn't keep doing the

1268
01:01:10,080 --> 01:01:12,120
next line of the poems.
It's like, I gotta wait, I gotta

1269
01:01:12,120 --> 01:01:15,440
wait until like till I shush.
And that was magical.

1270
01:01:15,960 --> 01:01:17,600
That kind of thing is absolutely
magical.

1271
01:01:17,840 --> 01:01:20,040
But then you have these big peak
moments, you know, like, I guess

1272
01:01:20,040 --> 01:01:21,360
I'm just going back to open
marks.

1273
01:01:21,360 --> 01:01:24,040
I guess I'm just heading down
and reading some stuff.

1274
01:01:24,040 --> 01:01:28,080
I put in my phone notes for, you
know, 5 people, whatever.

1275
01:01:28,480 --> 01:01:30,920
Like it's, it's a bit of a,
there's a bit of a challenge

1276
01:01:30,920 --> 01:01:33,760
like that after you've done a
big thing to find what the next

1277
01:01:33,760 --> 01:01:36,640
thing is.
I'm still going to write this

1278
01:01:36,640 --> 01:01:38,080
play.
I'm not finished this play.

1279
01:01:38,560 --> 01:01:41,840
And that's I feel is going to be
hanging over me for a while

1280
01:01:42,280 --> 01:01:46,440
working on that.
I also am trying to put some of

1281
01:01:46,440 --> 01:01:50,200
my poems together to publish
them because it's, I'm such a

1282
01:01:50,200 --> 01:01:52,520
performance.
I'm such a performance poet.

1283
01:01:53,160 --> 01:01:55,240
Almost none of my stuff is
published right.

1284
01:01:55,360 --> 01:01:57,560
Doesn't exist anyway.
You know, I don't have any chat

1285
01:01:57,560 --> 01:01:58,680
books.
I don't have any collections.

1286
01:01:58,680 --> 01:02:01,520
I don't have anything like that.
I've got one love home is

1287
01:02:01,520 --> 01:02:03,600
published in an anthology.
The one love home I've written

1288
01:02:03,600 --> 01:02:05,680
to a man is published in an
anthology.

1289
01:02:06,400 --> 01:02:10,040
It's not representative of my
work as a whole, but anyway,

1290
01:02:10,160 --> 01:02:13,560
it's there.
So, you know, there's a like a

1291
01:02:13,560 --> 01:02:17,360
lot of, I sort of feel like
especially because a lot of

1292
01:02:17,400 --> 01:02:20,000
stuff that you write as a
performer is very of its moment.

1293
01:02:20,000 --> 01:02:22,400
It's very often the time you're
writing it in.

1294
01:02:23,680 --> 01:02:28,840
I want to be able to, you know,
have, I don't have that in print

1295
01:02:28,840 --> 01:02:30,520
because I'll stop performing
them after time.

1296
01:02:30,760 --> 01:02:32,280
After time.
It gets awkward to bring out the

1297
01:02:32,280 --> 01:02:34,320
love poem you write to somebody
who, you know, with a few

1298
01:02:34,320 --> 01:02:36,880
crushes go just like I feel
awkward.

1299
01:02:37,120 --> 01:02:38,840
I feel awkward bringing that up
now.

1300
01:02:38,840 --> 01:02:40,880
I kind of want that just to be
in a book and someone can read

1301
01:02:40,880 --> 01:02:42,480
it if they want and I don't have
to do it again.

1302
01:02:44,160 --> 01:02:46,240
Or other times, like I write a
whole bunch of lockdown poems,

1303
01:02:46,440 --> 01:02:48,360
good poems, don't want to keep
doing them.

1304
01:02:48,360 --> 01:02:51,960
Don't want to keep putting
people back there, but we'd like

1305
01:02:51,960 --> 01:02:55,200
them to exist in a space where
people can engage them and

1306
01:02:55,200 --> 01:02:57,720
remember them.
So yeah, I am trying to work on

1307
01:02:57,720 --> 01:02:59,840
putting a collection.
I've been talking about that for

1308
01:02:59,840 --> 01:03:02,440
a long time.
I'm going to do a published

1309
01:03:02,440 --> 01:03:05,760
version.
That's kind of that's kind of my

1310
01:03:05,760 --> 01:03:07,280
big goal.
Awesome.

1311
01:03:07,400 --> 01:03:10,480
Can't wait, cannot wait.
We're going to move now to the

1312
01:03:10,520 --> 01:03:13,760
overarching analogy that we've
been using for Season 2, which

1313
01:03:13,760 --> 01:03:18,120
is Nikki, if your creative work
as a whole was an instrument in

1314
01:03:18,120 --> 01:03:22,000
an orchestra, creative
orchestra, not a traditional

1315
01:03:22,000 --> 01:03:25,440
orchestra that doesn't have
drums or other instruments,

1316
01:03:25,440 --> 01:03:27,040
let's put it out as wide as we
can.

1317
01:03:27,280 --> 01:03:28,600
What instrument do you think it
would be?

1318
01:03:28,960 --> 01:03:31,320
I think I'd be a harp.
Yeah, a harp.

1319
01:03:31,320 --> 01:03:32,880
I don't know if anyone's said
harp before.

1320
01:03:32,880 --> 01:03:37,520
No one has said Harp yet.
No, I think a harp because lots

1321
01:03:37,520 --> 01:03:40,240
of different strings and you try
to hit them all kind of gently.

1322
01:03:40,280 --> 01:03:43,360
That's my approach poetry.
I think I want to sort of like

1323
01:03:43,800 --> 01:03:47,680
hit the nice comforting string.
Oh, here's a sad string, here's

1324
01:03:47,680 --> 01:03:49,560
a funny string, here's a
comforting string.

1325
01:03:49,560 --> 01:03:52,960
And it's, you know, and so just
a beautiful sort of experience

1326
01:03:52,960 --> 01:03:55,440
as you as you run through them,
lots of different sounds

1327
01:03:55,720 --> 01:04:00,560
combining into an overall kind
of comforting feeling.

1328
01:04:00,560 --> 01:04:02,240
I think I find harps comforting
for sure.

1329
01:04:02,360 --> 01:04:05,120
They're very femme.
It's impossible, impossible to

1330
01:04:05,120 --> 01:04:08,480
play a harp in a masculine way.
I think that's, you know, I'll

1331
01:04:08,640 --> 01:04:10,280
relate to that instrument on
that level.

1332
01:04:10,280 --> 01:04:12,440
You can't sort of.
You've got to play it in a

1333
01:04:12,440 --> 01:04:14,760
particular in a particular.
Manner, Yeah, you can't just

1334
01:04:14,760 --> 01:04:15,560
grab and.
Run.

1335
01:04:15,560 --> 01:04:18,200
No, no, you can't.
You can't have like you can't do

1336
01:04:18,200 --> 01:04:21,160
a rock'n'roll harp.
I mean, maybe, I mean, you know,

1337
01:04:21,480 --> 01:04:23,040
that's a challenge.
That's a challenge.

1338
01:04:23,200 --> 01:04:27,520
But sending your your macho
rock'n'roll harp tracks.

1339
01:04:27,560 --> 01:04:32,640
But yeah, I think that's the one
that best sums up how how I work

1340
01:04:32,640 --> 01:04:37,120
and my approach to working that.
I like to brush on a lot of

1341
01:04:37,120 --> 01:04:38,640
different things.
HP.

1342
01:04:39,400 --> 01:04:41,680
That's great.
We've needed a harp and now we

1343
01:04:41,680 --> 01:04:43,440
have one.
It's filling out nicely.

1344
01:04:43,520 --> 01:04:46,920
Now on to the segment that we
shamelessly ripped off Diary of

1345
01:04:46,920 --> 01:04:49,560
a CEO.
We call it a diary of a Poet.

1346
01:04:50,040 --> 01:04:51,600
So you have.
Thank you.

1347
01:04:51,760 --> 01:04:54,240
You've been left a question from
my last guest.

1348
01:04:54,240 --> 01:04:58,360
So this particular question
comes from RK Gandhi, who asks

1349
01:04:58,760 --> 01:05:03,240
if you could embody 1 poet or
writer, who would it be and why?

1350
01:05:03,720 --> 01:05:06,480
With a little bit of a caveat.
You know, embodiments might be

1351
01:05:06,480 --> 01:05:09,080
different from like, who's your
favorite poet or writer?

1352
01:05:09,080 --> 01:05:10,880
Because, you know, you might
have someone who you admire

1353
01:05:10,880 --> 01:05:13,280
their work, but you wouldn't
want to, you know, necessarily

1354
01:05:13,280 --> 01:05:15,240
live in their skin or a day or
whatever.

1355
01:05:15,240 --> 01:05:18,480
So did you have any thoughts?
Well, look at the boring answer.

1356
01:05:18,640 --> 01:05:21,840
The boring answer is Safa.
The reason why being that you

1357
01:05:21,840 --> 01:05:23,840
read what's left of Safa's
poetry.

1358
01:05:23,840 --> 01:05:25,960
It's not very much.
You read what's left of it like

1359
01:05:25,960 --> 01:05:29,520
the little fragments and stuff
and they're so lush like

1360
01:05:29,520 --> 01:05:31,560
whatever she's writing in you're
reading a handful of her words

1361
01:05:32,280 --> 01:05:34,320
and you just imagine she's
writing them surrounded by

1362
01:05:34,320 --> 01:05:36,560
flowers.
She's wearing something flowy

1363
01:05:36,560 --> 01:05:40,840
and drapey There's probably
waves like going gently in the

1364
01:05:40,840 --> 01:05:43,360
background.
Maybe a harp yes, probably

1365
01:05:43,360 --> 01:05:47,480
indeed a did a harp or the the
equivalents in ancient Greek

1366
01:05:47,480 --> 01:05:49,840
that is that the kithra.
I'm probably mispronouncing

1367
01:05:49,840 --> 01:05:51,000
that.
I won't even try.

1368
01:05:52,240 --> 01:05:55,440
But there's yeah, like that kind
of lushness.

1369
01:05:55,520 --> 01:05:58,440
I would love, I would love if I
came on stage and I was like,

1370
01:05:58,600 --> 01:06:00,440
oh, this is such a lush
experience.

1371
01:06:01,440 --> 01:06:03,600
This is such a beautiful
experience like that.

1372
01:06:03,840 --> 01:06:06,000
But of course, a queer poet
saying, oh, I want to embody

1373
01:06:06,000 --> 01:06:07,800
Sappho.
It's just like, yes, well,

1374
01:06:07,840 --> 01:06:10,240
everyone.
The other, the other part I

1375
01:06:10,240 --> 01:06:13,120
bring up is, and you're probably
one of my most bred pots

1376
01:06:13,120 --> 01:06:15,240
certainly is Mary Oliver I
really love.

1377
01:06:15,840 --> 01:06:19,520
And for me, it's like just the
way she interacts with nature.

1378
01:06:20,120 --> 01:06:25,080
Like, I don't feel, I don't feel
like Mary Oliver has a wasted

1379
01:06:25,080 --> 01:06:29,200
experience in her life.
It's just like the rest of us

1380
01:06:29,200 --> 01:06:30,200
all Trump around.
Best thing.

1381
01:06:30,360 --> 01:06:31,360
Oh, my God, I didn't get this
done.

1382
01:06:31,360 --> 01:06:32,560
I've got to get.
I've got to get my website.

1383
01:06:32,560 --> 01:06:34,720
I've got to publish my book.
I've got a blah, blah, blah,

1384
01:06:34,720 --> 01:06:38,120
blah, blah, Mary Oliver.
And like, you have the feeling

1385
01:06:38,120 --> 01:06:39,600
like she walks out and she sees
a puddle.

1386
01:06:39,640 --> 01:06:42,240
She's like, oh, it's a spiritual
experience.

1387
01:06:42,600 --> 01:06:44,560
Yeah.
The puddle, the way the light

1388
01:06:44,560 --> 01:06:46,840
falls in the puddle, the things
that live in the puddle, what

1389
01:06:46,840 --> 01:06:49,840
the puddle says about our
relationship with nature.

1390
01:06:50,240 --> 01:06:55,040
And I just, I wish I had that
kind of like just that intensity

1391
01:06:55,200 --> 01:06:59,920
of experience and what I feel it
also feels like a very stable

1392
01:06:59,920 --> 01:07:03,680
and, and reliable experience.
Does that make sense?

1393
01:07:03,920 --> 01:07:08,240
Like you feel like wherever Mary
Oliver is or was in the world,

1394
01:07:08,720 --> 01:07:13,080
that that element of assault was
always there, very, very stable.

1395
01:07:13,080 --> 01:07:14,960
She wasn't, she wasn't cynical,
you know.

1396
01:07:15,040 --> 01:07:15,720
No.
Yeah.

1397
01:07:16,280 --> 01:07:17,040
No.
And she could.

1398
01:07:17,040 --> 01:07:19,320
If she was out in nature, she
would write these beautiful

1399
01:07:19,320 --> 01:07:22,840
spiritual nature poems.
If she was in a weedy panic, she

1400
01:07:22,840 --> 01:07:24,680
would write a beautiful
spiritual nature poem about

1401
01:07:24,680 --> 01:07:26,560
that.
She could find that, that beauty

1402
01:07:26,560 --> 01:07:28,040
and that spirituality
everywhere.

1403
01:07:28,800 --> 01:07:30,800
And that's why I love her.
That's why I love her poetry.

1404
01:07:30,800 --> 01:07:33,560
It always makes me feel better
because I'm reading like a poem

1405
01:07:33,560 --> 01:07:35,920
and it's about like a weird
starfish on a rock.

1406
01:07:36,240 --> 01:07:39,680
But it makes me feel like life
is worth living and the universe

1407
01:07:39,680 --> 01:07:41,840
is going to be OK, actually,
eventually.

1408
01:07:41,840 --> 01:07:45,560
And I would like to carry myself
through life with a fraction of

1409
01:07:45,560 --> 01:07:48,320
that grace.
Yeah, a fraction of the wonder,

1410
01:07:48,320 --> 01:07:48,960
you know?
Yeah.

1411
01:07:49,040 --> 01:07:50,400
I walk in the park with Mary
Oliver.

1412
01:07:50,440 --> 01:07:52,080
Would never be, would never be
boring.

1413
01:07:52,320 --> 01:07:55,160
Yeah, that's that 2 great
answers.

1414
01:07:55,400 --> 01:07:57,200
I appreciate you.
I appreciate you engaging with

1415
01:07:57,200 --> 01:07:59,600
the question.
You now have the the heavy

1416
01:07:59,600 --> 01:08:04,280
responsibility of leaving a a
question for my next guest sight

1417
01:08:04,280 --> 01:08:05,960
unseen.
Certainly, Yeah.

1418
01:08:05,960 --> 01:08:06,880
What?
Were you thinking?

1419
01:08:08,000 --> 01:08:11,800
One thing which I do a lot of
and it's maybe I call if I talk

1420
01:08:11,800 --> 01:08:14,720
a lot about my dreams.
This started again during like,

1421
01:08:14,760 --> 01:08:17,000
I've always had weird dreams and
I've always written them down

1422
01:08:17,080 --> 01:08:19,279
and I've always seen maybe too
much into them.

1423
01:08:20,160 --> 01:08:22,080
But during lockdown, I had
exceptionally weird ones.

1424
01:08:22,080 --> 01:08:25,080
So I started putting them on
social media and everyone was

1425
01:08:25,080 --> 01:08:27,760
bored enough to want to engage
with my dreams at that point.

1426
01:08:27,760 --> 01:08:30,600
And so like everything for a
long time, I just like wrote

1427
01:08:30,600 --> 01:08:33,720
about my dreams on the Internet.
They've all sort of settled down

1428
01:08:33,880 --> 01:08:35,319
now.
They're not as anywhere near as

1429
01:08:35,319 --> 01:08:37,120
weird.
But that's why I wanted to ask

1430
01:08:37,120 --> 01:08:40,279
was a question about dreams,
like what's memorable dream

1431
01:08:40,279 --> 01:08:42,240
you've had?
How has that influenced your

1432
01:08:42,240 --> 01:08:44,439
work?
Do you draw on dreams?

1433
01:08:45,080 --> 01:08:47,800
Your inspiration in your work?
So good.

1434
01:08:48,160 --> 01:08:50,880
Oh man, there's gonna, there's
gonna be depths, depths to

1435
01:08:50,880 --> 01:08:52,720
explore there.
That's a that's a really great

1436
01:08:52,720 --> 01:08:54,560
question.
I mean, like, a lot of art, good

1437
01:08:54,560 --> 01:08:56,479
and otherwise, has come from
dreams.

1438
01:08:56,640 --> 01:08:58,160
Sure.
And otherwise, I was thinking

1439
01:08:58,160 --> 01:08:59,800
about Twilight that came from a
dream.

1440
01:08:59,960 --> 01:09:00,880
Is that right?
Yeah.

1441
01:09:00,880 --> 01:09:01,279
Yeah.
Yeah.

1442
01:09:01,279 --> 01:09:02,120
That's.
Yeah.

1443
01:09:02,120 --> 01:09:03,200
It's.
Why do I know this?

1444
01:09:03,319 --> 01:09:06,240
But no, literally the
inspiration for that whole book

1445
01:09:06,240 --> 01:09:09,240
series was the Stephanie.
Stephanie.

1446
01:09:09,279 --> 01:09:12,319
Thank you.
Stephanie had a dream in which

1447
01:09:12,319 --> 01:09:15,000
he was visited by a sparkly man
who said he was a vampire.

1448
01:09:15,240 --> 01:09:17,640
So the sparkly vampire is the
most ridiculous element of

1449
01:09:17,640 --> 01:09:19,560
Twilight, is actually the core
image.

1450
01:09:19,920 --> 01:09:22,000
That's the image that led to.
The rest of it was a dream she

1451
01:09:22,000 --> 01:09:24,279
had about that.
OK.

1452
01:09:24,439 --> 01:09:27,399
And sometimes you do.
And I've found often in my life,

1453
01:09:27,399 --> 01:09:28,680
I've had dreams which feel like
this.

1454
01:09:28,680 --> 01:09:31,479
They're so complete in terms of
what they offer you.

1455
01:09:31,479 --> 01:09:33,160
I feel like this has to be a
piece.

1456
01:09:33,439 --> 01:09:38,600
But as soon as you try to make a
piece out of a dream, it's

1457
01:09:38,600 --> 01:09:40,359
really difficult, it's really
elusive.

1458
01:09:40,359 --> 01:09:41,840
Trying to catch water.
Yeah, yeah.

1459
01:09:41,840 --> 01:09:44,720
It's hard because it's like
you're trying to, like they

1460
01:09:44,720 --> 01:09:47,279
don't actually have a plot, they
don't actually make sense, but

1461
01:09:47,279 --> 01:09:50,479
they feel so meaningful because
it's just a selection of these

1462
01:09:50,479 --> 01:09:54,080
images which have these very
powerful resonance for you.

1463
01:09:54,080 --> 01:09:57,160
So they're all your deepest,
most resonant images, but trying

1464
01:09:57,160 --> 01:09:59,800
to express in a way which makes
sense to another person or lands

1465
01:09:59,800 --> 01:10:02,040
for another person.
This is my subconscious, not

1466
01:10:02,080 --> 01:10:03,680
yours.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1467
01:10:03,680 --> 01:10:06,320
So absolutely, yeah.
I'm actually absolutely

1468
01:10:06,320 --> 01:10:09,560
fascinated with dreams and like
with learning to interpret them,

1469
01:10:09,560 --> 01:10:12,360
learning to interpret how to
read the meanings of them.

1470
01:10:12,360 --> 01:10:14,800
What, what the because it's,
it's individual for everyone.

1471
01:10:14,800 --> 01:10:17,040
Like those dream dictionaries
and stuff for a union.

1472
01:10:17,080 --> 01:10:17,720
Yeah.
Yeah.

1473
01:10:17,720 --> 01:10:21,680
Because it's like it's working
out what these things represent

1474
01:10:21,680 --> 01:10:23,760
to you.
It's what are these things in

1475
01:10:23,760 --> 01:10:28,920
your subconscious?
If you see a lot of spiders in

1476
01:10:28,920 --> 01:10:31,640
your dreams, for instance, what
are they?

1477
01:10:31,960 --> 01:10:33,360
What does the spider mean to
you?

1478
01:10:33,360 --> 01:10:35,200
Are you scared of it?
Do you love it?

1479
01:10:35,440 --> 01:10:40,480
Are you curious about it?
It's those different kinds of

1480
01:10:40,480 --> 01:10:42,240
things can have different,
different meanings.

1481
01:10:42,240 --> 01:10:44,520
And so when I do you mind if I
talk about this?

1482
01:10:44,640 --> 01:10:45,520
No, that's fine.
I love dreams.

1483
01:10:47,240 --> 01:10:49,920
When I write down my dreams, I
used to try to write them in

1484
01:10:49,920 --> 01:10:53,200
excessive detail and you get
completely lost and that they're

1485
01:10:53,200 --> 01:10:55,760
incomprehensible.
You read it back two weeks later

1486
01:10:55,760 --> 01:10:57,960
and you're like, I don't even
understand this.

1487
01:10:58,040 --> 01:11:01,040
But to interpret them, I just
capture the key images.

1488
01:11:01,240 --> 01:11:02,240
It's like, what are the key
things?

1489
01:11:02,240 --> 01:11:04,000
What are the key images that I
got that night?

1490
01:11:04,280 --> 01:11:08,440
Get them down quickly and then
you compare them over time and

1491
01:11:08,440 --> 01:11:11,240
you see the themes that line up
with each other and you're just

1492
01:11:11,240 --> 01:11:13,880
like, oh, every dream I was
having over that period of time

1493
01:11:14,400 --> 01:11:18,080
kept going back to these kinds
of images I had these types of

1494
01:11:18,760 --> 01:11:21,200
things were appearing.
It's just like something was

1495
01:11:21,200 --> 01:11:23,680
falling apart.
For instance, in in every dream,

1496
01:11:23,680 --> 01:11:25,960
it's just like, was it a a
street cracking?

1497
01:11:25,960 --> 01:11:30,200
Was it a vase breaking?
Was it a different thing fell

1498
01:11:30,200 --> 01:11:32,080
apart.
So that's the theme, that's the

1499
01:11:32,080 --> 01:11:33,560
topic.
That's what my brains are.

1500
01:11:34,240 --> 01:11:37,880
It's on that image.
And I find I can only really

1501
01:11:37,880 --> 01:11:40,440
successfully interpret dreams if
you look at them over a period

1502
01:11:40,440 --> 01:11:42,880
of time.
And you could like, OK, these

1503
01:11:42,880 --> 01:11:45,200
are the things which your brain
keeps going, going back to.

1504
01:11:45,400 --> 01:11:47,800
This is what my brain wants to
sort out right now.

1505
01:11:48,200 --> 01:11:51,200
And it's trying to do that with
various hits and hackers.

1506
01:11:52,800 --> 01:11:54,840
This is the skin of a killer,
Nikki.

1507
01:11:57,320 --> 01:11:59,040
Yeah.
Like I said, I think there's

1508
01:11:59,040 --> 01:12:00,920
there's a lot of depth that that
question.

1509
01:12:00,920 --> 01:12:04,240
So I'm looking forward to seeing
what my next guest has to say.

1510
01:12:04,240 --> 01:12:05,240
Oh.
I love listening to it.

1511
01:12:05,240 --> 01:12:06,200
I love hearing people's
training.

1512
01:12:06,560 --> 01:12:08,680
I'll make sure to put some extra
effort so that we get some

1513
01:12:08,680 --> 01:12:11,040
really, you know, the weirdest
ones when we when we talk about

1514
01:12:11,040 --> 01:12:13,520
it.
Nikki, if people want to find

1515
01:12:13,520 --> 01:12:16,560
out more about you, follow you,
all these amazing things you're

1516
01:12:16,560 --> 01:12:18,680
doing, the forthcoming
collection, the forthcoming

1517
01:12:18,680 --> 01:12:21,040
shows, where's the best places
for them to head?

1518
01:12:21,760 --> 01:12:25,600
Probably, I hate to say it, but
social media is probably the

1519
01:12:25,600 --> 01:12:27,040
best.
Who would have thought?

1520
01:12:27,320 --> 01:12:30,280
Yeah, it probably is the best.
I still have an Instagram.

1521
01:12:30,320 --> 01:12:32,320
I keep wanting to get off it,
but I'm still on it.

1522
01:12:32,440 --> 01:12:38,440
Nikki Vivica NIKKIVIVECA So at
Nikki Vivica, you can follow me

1523
01:12:38,440 --> 01:12:40,680
on Facebook or Instagram, but
Instagram's usually the better

1524
01:12:40,680 --> 01:12:42,640
one.
That's where I'll post cute

1525
01:12:42,640 --> 01:12:45,120
pictures of myself and details
of upcoming gigs.

1526
01:12:46,040 --> 01:12:48,520
So good as well.
And you know, I keep, I keep

1527
01:12:48,520 --> 01:12:50,120
meaning to set up something
else.

1528
01:12:50,120 --> 01:12:51,560
I keep meaning to make a
website.

1529
01:12:51,560 --> 01:12:54,360
I keep meaning to do this.
At the moment, the social media

1530
01:12:54,360 --> 01:12:56,000
is an easy option.
Finally there.

1531
01:12:56,040 --> 01:12:59,880
And if I do end up publishing a
book, I'll post about it there

1532
01:12:59,880 --> 01:13:01,320
for sure.
Hell yeah.

1533
01:13:01,720 --> 01:13:05,200
We'll have links in the
description to the Instagram and

1534
01:13:05,200 --> 01:13:06,960
Facebook as well.
Nikki, you're going to leave us

1535
01:13:06,960 --> 01:13:09,840
with one more piece before we
say goodbye today.

1536
01:13:10,560 --> 01:13:16,360
Certainly, certainly about these
things have the power to stop

1537
01:13:16,360 --> 01:13:21,880
thought.
Scrolling on a phone, sunshine

1538
01:13:21,880 --> 01:13:28,080
in a park, daydreaming about
kissing, swimming in a

1539
01:13:28,080 --> 01:13:32,360
boisterous sea, always having
somewhere to be by a certain

1540
01:13:32,360 --> 01:13:36,000
time.
Pain, say, from drinking too hot

1541
01:13:36,000 --> 01:13:40,160
a cup of coffee.
Pain, say, from calling

1542
01:13:40,160 --> 01:13:43,600
daydreams what they are.
Music.

1543
01:13:44,640 --> 01:13:48,360
Always music.
Lying on your back, watching

1544
01:13:48,360 --> 01:13:53,120
swallows swooping over the roofs
of a city where no bombs have

1545
01:13:53,120 --> 01:13:58,360
ever fallen.
Oops, I let a thought through.

1546
01:13:59,880 --> 01:14:02,480
It's trying so hard not to do
that.

1547
01:14:06,480 --> 01:14:09,920
Nikki Vivica, what a talent.
Very much looking forward to the

1548
01:14:09,920 --> 01:14:11,840
things that you get up to in the
next 12 months.

1549
01:14:11,840 --> 01:14:14,560
Thank you so much for thinking
with us and for slamming with

1550
01:14:14,560 --> 01:14:16,080
us.
You're very, very welcome.

1551
01:14:26,120 --> 01:14:27,960
Wait, you Big Sands, what's that
all about?