Neil Hilborn - The World's #1 Most Watched Slam Poet

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Proudly tariff free since 2024.
Welcome to I think therefore I

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slammed the podcast bringing you
the best spoken word in slam

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poetry artists from Australia
and beyond.

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And today we are well and truly
living up to that tagline.

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My name's Andrew by the way.
I should say sorry for being so

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rude, dear listener.
But yes, today we are truly

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living up to that tagline we
have with us today.

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Surely one of the faces on the
Mount Rushmore of modern slam

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poets.
My guest today is originally

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from Houston, TX, now settled in
North Carolina.

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He's performed in 41 U.S.
States and eight countries, has

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written 4 poetry collections.
His latest collection, About

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Time is out now via Button
Poetry.

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He also holds the title of Most
Watched Poet ever with over 150

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million views online,
particularly for his

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breakthrough poem OCD.
Most importantly, you can hear

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him in the intro to our podcast.
He is Mr. He doesn't care if

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it's perfect himself.
Neil Hilborn, this is an

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incredible honour to have you
on.

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Andrew, thanks so much for
having me.

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Also, thanks for putting me in
the intro, right, right between

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Jonah Hill and Mike Myers.
It like feels pretty.

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It feels pretty good, you know?
It's good.

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It's good company to keep, isn't
it?

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Now, I do want to ask you before
we get into things, I do like to

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ask my American guests, you
know, is everything OK?

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How?
How are things over there?

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No, no, no.
Stuff's bad, dude.

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It's, yeah.
It's a terrifying dystopian

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nightmare that we're all just
trying to, we're all just trying

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to help each other through, you
know, I like, ultimately it's

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obviously this all happened, you
know, like we went through

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similar emotions with the first
Trump presidency.

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But but it's, it's, it just
feels more more immediate and

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more terrifying because they
feel like they got a clock on

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themselves, you know?
So it's, so it's this weird

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thing where like, it's a
horrible, incompetent clown show

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that like can't get anything
done.

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But the stuff they do get done
is nightmarish.

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So it's, yeah, I don't know.
It's this, it's this constant

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back and forth of like not
paying attention to the news

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because it's exhausting.
And I feel like I won't get

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anything accomplished.
And then having and then paying

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attention to what's going on
around me so I can actually help

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folks when I get the opportunity
to help them.

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You know, it's yeah, it's a
terrible nightmare.

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And we're in the final season of
America.

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So we'll, we'll see what
happens, dude.

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Yeah, well, we're, we're all
rooting for you, Neil.

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And, and, and all us all fellow
artists over that way.

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You know, I've, I've spoken to
some other guests from over

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there and thought that it's
gonna be really interesting to

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see what kind of art comes out
of these times.

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You know what I mean?
Yeah, You know, not that you

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have to suffer to create good
art, but suffering often can be

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involved in the process of
creating good art.

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You know, even just in the, you
know, like I run a poetry slam

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in Raleigh, NC and like, I was
just at a poetry tournament and

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just seeing the, the, the poetry
shows I've been to lately,

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people just, they need it.
They need it in a way that they

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might not when stuff's going
great.

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I mean, it's, it's cliche at
this point.

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But like when things are hard,
art and expression in community

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and public vulnerability is more
important than than ever.

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So, you know, maybe, maybe there
will be some good poems and

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maybe those good poems will help
us through this.

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Yeah, yeah.
Hear, hear.

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Now, Neil, just to give you an
idea of how far and wide your

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work has reached, in the lead up
to this interview, I met a new

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work colleague and just talking
about hobbies, told her about

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the podcast.
And I think they told me, oh, I

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know nothing about slam poetry.
Oh, I think I've, I've watched,

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you know, one or two videos
years ago, whatever.

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And I thought, you know what?
I I'm, I'm gonna test this was

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was was there a guy in there
talking about turning a light

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switch off and on and off and on
and off and on she goes.

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Yes, even in amongst the people
who are not as familiar with

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slam poetry, you are somewhat of
a household name.

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It's it's wonderful to see.
It feels pretty cool and and

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also absolutely terrifying
because I, I don't know, man.

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I mean, obviously you don't, you
don't expect or plan on like

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going viral, right?
I was, I was completely shocked

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when that, I mean, legitimately,
OK, I shouldn't, this is not how

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I should open this, but
whatever.

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When, when that poem went viral,
like I was with my with my slam

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team from Minneapolis.
We were going to the National

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Poetry Slam in Boston.
We'd stop that night in

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Cleveland 'cause it's a 24 hour
drive between Minneapolis and

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Boston.
So we were spending the night in

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Cleveland.
You know, we went to a bar

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'cause we were all in our early
20s to talk, you know, to talk

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strategy.
And so like, literally, I woke

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up in a hotel room in Cleveland
hungover.

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And then my roommate was like,
Hey, Neil OC DS on the front

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page of Reddit.
It's got 4 million views.

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You're Internet famous buddy.
And I was like, I'm going to go

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throw up really quick.
And then when I come back, we'll

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process that.
So everybody I knew was was

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completely shocked by the whole
thing.

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And so, so like whenever,
whenever I hear stuff like,

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sorry, I jumped right into that
story.

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But whenever I hear stuff like
that, I just try to like, I I

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immediately relate it to like,
yeah, but Neil, you're, you're

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still, you're still you, dude.
You're still a disgusting idiot.

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And.
Still Jenny from the block.

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Yeah, right.
Because I, I don't know it, the

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nature of, of the Internet and
things going viral is so

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capricious that I think what I
like, I think it's that moment

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was really cool.
And I think my career after that

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has been defined by me trying to
trying to earn that moment and

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trying to be like, like, yeah,
that crazy thing happened.

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Now let me get out in the world
and work super hard and travel a

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bunch and do a lot of shows and,
and really like show that like,

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I didn't just get lucky.
I worked really hard up to that

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moment that I got lucky and I
continued to work hard after

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that.
That's that's really interesting

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how you talked about like trying
to earn it.

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Like do you feel like you're
there or is it, is it is it one

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of those things where the goal
posts are shifting or do you

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feel like you're in a
comfortable place where you're

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like, you know, it's all come
together?

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I don't want to say like I've
earned it, I'm done, you know

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what I mean?
But I, I do think that like when

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especially I felt a lot of guilt
when that, when that video first

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went viral because I, yeah,
because honestly, like the

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scene, I was like the, the
poetry scene then was so good

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and, and still is really good.
But, but the, especially the

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Minneapolis poetry scene was so
good and vibrant that like I was

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looking around at all of my
friends and I was like, man,

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they are all more talented than
me.

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Why is it me?
Right.

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And so I felt really guilty that
I was like, I felt as though,

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like I don't deserve this.
I hadn't I, I didn't earn this

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right and that that followed me
around a lot, but you know, I

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went to a bunch of therapy and
also I feel like I have since I

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mean, it's been, I don't know
that that video first went viral

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in 2013.
It's 2000, whatever year it is,

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you know, I think that since
then I have won like because of

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the opportunities I've gotten
from that video.

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I've done, I've, I've done a
bunch of shows in terms of like

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spoken word poets, I've got to
be at least in the top ten,

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probably more like top five.
You know, there there's, I mean,

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if we're especially modern, if
we're talking Gil Scott Heron

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and, and like even Saul
Williams, like they destroyed me

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forever.
But if we're talking like 2nd to

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3rd wave and beyond slam poets,
I've got to be up there, right?

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It's me and Buddy Wakefield and
Andrew Gibson and Denise

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Mozkani.
And I'm sure I'm forgetting

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somebody that I'll be pillaged
for.

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But between doing shows and, and
mentoring and putting out books

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and just like trying to actively
like nurture folks in the spoken

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word community, I, I feel, I
feel as though maybe when the

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video first went viral, I don't
feel like I deserved it.

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But I feel since then that I've,
I've earned it and that I'll try

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to continue to earn it, you
know?

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Yeah, Good, good.
Well, we'll be, we'll be talking

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more specifics about the OCD
poem a little bit later.

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For now, I think we're all keen
to hear the first piece that

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you've brought with you today.
You got it.

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This poem.
This is this is one of my

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favorite poems from my new book.
It's so every every year or so,

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I like to have a new poem that I
open live sets with.

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I just like to always open with
the same poem.

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It just helps me get in the
headspace of, OK, the show's

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happening.
All right, Neil, get your get

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yourself together.
We're doing this.

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So this is this is one of the
ironically, one of the last

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poems in the book, but it's
always the first poem in the

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set.
It's titled, the title's a

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Whitman reference.
It's parentheses.

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I am large.
I contain multitudes.

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I would like this evening to
make a compact with the stars.

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I would like us to agree that we
will continue to shine even

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after we are dead.
I'm not ignoring the dirt.

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The dirt will come later.
I just want to begin among the

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stars.
I would like to thank this world

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that allows me to be in it even
though of it I am so very

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scared.
I would like to thank the one

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therapist in North Carolina who
accepts my health insurance.

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I would like to say I would like
to suggest if your feet are

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cold, consider your laptop
charger.

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I would like to acknowledge dogs
and their willingness to receive

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pets from me.
I'd like 8 full hours of sleep,

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but I'll take 5 and a nap on a
plane.

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I'd like apples to be sweeter
and mangoes to be closer to me.

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I'd like to say.
I'd like to say that yours is

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the only permission you need to
love yourself.

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I want to hurl wishes into the
fog.

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I want to be ungovernable as a
possum in a darkening field.

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I want to drive around the block
because the song isn't over yet.

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I'd like to thank concrete,
snow, days, the dark that's

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always rising.
I'd like to thank the dirt you

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thought I forgot about the dirt.
The dirt holds my mother, and

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someday it will hold me.
Thank you, dirt, for doing

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everything with persistence and
grace.

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Thank you for the mirror you
hold up to me.

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Thank you, stars, for making the
dirt and me.

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I promise to become the dirt one
day.

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I would like this evening, in
front of everything that lives

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between here and the end, I'd
like to make a promise.

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Whatever I've got left in me,
you can have it.

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I've been gathering these
stones.

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I think it's time to roll them
all away.

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Yeah, man.
Woo.

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Yeah.
Here's here's to the dirt.

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Here's to the dirt.
Dirt.

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So good.
Thank you, Neil for that.

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Thank you.
Let's jump in.

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Let's jump in the DeLorean,
shall we?

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I wanted to know what's what is
your kind of origin story of

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starting to create and share
your work on stage.

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So before you know, before the
OCD poem took off, before the

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touring, what was it that
started you on the path?

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Yeah, I mean, I always, I always
knew I always liked poetry.

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I was, you know, I knew I wanted
to be involved in poetry in some

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capacity.
Like when I went to college, I

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knew I was going to get an
English degree, but I always

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thought I was going to be like a
poetry professor.

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I was just going to be involved
in, in pagey things because I'd

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never, I'd never heard of spoken
word until or like slam poetry,

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especially until my sophomore
year of college, right when my

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friend, well, now he's my
friend.

223
00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:52,120
At the time I didn't like him
actually, but my friend Dylan,

224
00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:56,120
he you can tell him I said that
my, my friend Dylan, he came to

225
00:11:56,120 --> 00:11:59,320
a, a meeting of my literary
magazine Thistle shout out

226
00:11:59,320 --> 00:11:59,960
Thistle.
RIP.

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00:12:00,560 --> 00:12:04,600
He, you know, we, we ran like a
weekly workshop and he, he, he

228
00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:06,000
was like, OK, I've got a slam
poem.

229
00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:07,800
I would a workshop, but I'm
like, what is that?

230
00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:11,080
And he did, he stood up and he
did an absolutely terrible poem.

231
00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:12,760
But you know, we all sucked back
then, right?

232
00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:13,960
We were all just like really
bad.

233
00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:16,600
But he really, he really meant
it.

234
00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:19,880
He was super sincere.
And I didn't know you could do a

235
00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:23,000
poem and yell at the same time,
which I always thought was

236
00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:25,960
really cool because like I, I
grew up in Houston going to punk

237
00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:28,400
shows and like being a part of
the punk scene, but I have no

238
00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:30,680
musical talent.
So like I can't play guitar.

239
00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:34,120
I can barely even saying, you
know, I, I've sort of been

240
00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:37,120
learning drums lately.
But anyway, so like I always

241
00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:40,440
wanted to be in a band, but I
never could, right.

242
00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:43,600
And so when when Dylan gets up
and he's like, I'm going to yell

243
00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:46,520
and do poems, I was like, me
too, please.

244
00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:50,440
Also, I would like to so
literally like that.

245
00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:53,040
Just right after that, I just
went up to him.

246
00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:54,360
I'm like, tell me more about
this.

247
00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:57,040
What the Hell's going on?
So he showed me.

248
00:12:57,240 --> 00:13:00,280
He showed me videos of some of
his favorite poets, which this

249
00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:05,680
is 2000 8.
So like the videos were all like

250
00:13:05,680 --> 00:13:09,920
really terrible things recorded
on like on like phones and

251
00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:11,320
stuff.
So he showed me like Buddy

252
00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:14,200
Wakefield, the information man.
He showed me a nice Mushagani's

253
00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:16,560
poem, Here am I.
He showed me Andrea Gibson's for

254
00:13:16,560 --> 00:13:20,160
Eli, a lot of those like second
wave slam folks, right?

255
00:13:20,160 --> 00:13:23,120
That were really especially
coming out of like the West

256
00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:24,920
Coast in Colorado and stuff like
that.

257
00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:26,320
And I was like, this is
fascinating.

258
00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:29,200
Tell me more.
So turns out there was a

259
00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:31,120
thriving St. poacher scene in
the Twin Cities.

260
00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:33,360
I had no idea.
Excellent.

261
00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:35,520
This was in Minnesota.
It's in St.

262
00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:37,200
Paul, MN.
I went to college at a spot

263
00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:39,680
called McAllister College.
I had no idea when I moved

264
00:13:39,680 --> 00:13:41,280
there.
Very fortuitous.

265
00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:44,960
Turns out because we went, he
took me to the Minneapolis and

266
00:13:44,960 --> 00:13:47,440
Saint Paul poetry slams.
I was like, this is brilliant.

267
00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:50,200
I would like to do it.
We started a we started a poetry

268
00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:52,680
slam at our college and then we
just kind of snowballed from

269
00:13:52,680 --> 00:13:54,440
there.
You know, I, I'd never, I'd

270
00:13:54,440 --> 00:13:58,160
never performed before.
I got on stage at our poetry,

271
00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:01,520
like our first poetry site was
my first time ever performing a

272
00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:04,440
poem in front of people.
But I, I loved it, Man, that was

273
00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:05,640
bad.
But I loved it.

274
00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:10,080
And so I just, yeah, it was
just, there was just always kind

275
00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:12,360
of the next thing after that.
It was like, OK, well, here's

276
00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:15,520
here's the next slam here.
Oh, we let's put together A-Team

277
00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:17,280
to go to college nationals.
OK, great.

278
00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:18,320
We made it.
That's awesome.

279
00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:21,640
You know, so it was just, it
always just felt like a natural

280
00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:23,680
progression after that.
But yeah, thanks, Dylan.

281
00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:26,360
I have a lot of stuff in my life
that I love because of you.

282
00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:32,000
And and yet it started with, you
know, I think a lot of great

283
00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:34,720
friendships start with some kind
of animosity or some kind of,

284
00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:36,440
you know, who does this guy
think he is?

285
00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:40,720
Yeah, well, it's, it's, it was
more like I just, you know, I

286
00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:44,800
was a sophomore and he was a
first year and like, I had

287
00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:48,200
gotten to a minor disagreement
with his roommate or something.

288
00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:51,080
You know, it was nothing, not a
like nothing memorable.

289
00:14:51,080 --> 00:14:53,240
I don't even remember what any
of the content was about.

290
00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:56,480
But like I remember like Dylan
rolled up to our to our lit mag

291
00:14:56,480 --> 00:14:58,640
and I was like, what deal
they're doing here?

292
00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:02,120
And then, you know, all of
that's immediately forgotten,

293
00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:04,520
right.
So but yeah, definitely,

294
00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:06,920
definitely enemies to friends
arc going on in there.

295
00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:08,200
Love it.
Love it.

296
00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:11,120
While you were in the Twin
Cities, did you ever cross paths

297
00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:13,920
with, like, Kyle Tranmire or
anyone like that?

298
00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:15,920
Yeah.
Hell yeah, I was just hanging

299
00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:19,280
out with him on Saturday.
I I interviewed him a couple of

300
00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:21,760
weeks ago.
He was, he was so, so lovely.

301
00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:25,360
Yeah.
He's he's one of one of my not

302
00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:29,040
only like he's one of my
favorite poets like period.

303
00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:31,920
I've I've learned so much from
him.

304
00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:34,840
So like when so I started, I
started going to poetry slams in

305
00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:38,520
2000 and nine, 2009 was the
first year the Saint Paul team

306
00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:42,400
won the national poetry slam and
and he was on it was him and

307
00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:45,480
Carrie Jackson AK 6 is 9 and
Sierra de Mulder and Michael

308
00:15:45,480 --> 00:15:48,240
Blackaday, right.
And so like, the the scene was

309
00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:52,040
already hopping when I showed up
and Kyle was a huge part of it.

310
00:15:52,160 --> 00:15:54,080
Yeah, Kyle, Kyle's the dude.
I've learned.

311
00:15:54,840 --> 00:16:00,120
I've learned so much about how
especially like how to how to

312
00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:02,480
captivate a crowd.
And he has this really

313
00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:05,360
incredible lecture about how the
personal being the political and

314
00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:08,880
the way that the way that like
you can write a political poem

315
00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:11,520
from a very personal lens.
It's it's he's got a whole thing

316
00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:14,440
about mountains and drilling.
And I'm like, this is a really

317
00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:15,920
this is also a really
interesting thing.

318
00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:17,720
Anyway, whatever.
Love Kyle is the point.

319
00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:20,720
I love Kyle so much.
Yeah, yeah, no, he was.

320
00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:25,000
He was so, so wonderful.
Had such great insight into into

321
00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:27,160
what he does now.
Neil, I believe in your

322
00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:30,680
extensive touring that you have
been to kind of our corner of

323
00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:33,440
the world here in Australia and
you're on the record saying that

324
00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:35,920
you cried while meeting a
wombat.

325
00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:40,880
I did I wept.
I I mean, OK, wombats have been

326
00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:43,120
have been they've been my
favorite animal since I was a

327
00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:48,400
very tiny child and that the, so
that the, that tour, I mean it

328
00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:49,760
was, you know, it was a few
shows, right?

329
00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:52,800
So I did.
I was in Brisbane, Sydney and

330
00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:53,680
Melbourne.
The.

331
00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:58,080
West Coast always misses out.
I know it's sorry, Perslings,

332
00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:01,240
It's not because I don't like
you, but your country is very

333
00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:03,720
big and there's nothing, there's
nothing between anyway.

334
00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:09,520
It's always so funny like as as
a as a touring person, when you

335
00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:12,240
know, a schedule comes out and
people are like, man, you must

336
00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:17,560
really hate Pittsburgh, PA.
And I'm like, first of all, this

337
00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:19,359
was sent to me.
I didn't make a single decision

338
00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:21,040
about it.
They asked one city I wanted to

339
00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:24,240
go to when I said, please, I
would like to go to Dallas,

340
00:17:24,240 --> 00:17:27,520
please, you know, or whatever.
Anyway, so sorry, Perth.

341
00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:30,640
It's not nothing personal, but
the tour ended in in Melbourne

342
00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:33,320
and my wife and I, we scheduled
two weeks because we were like,

343
00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:36,600
well, we're here, so let's enjoy
ourselves, right?

344
00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:40,960
And so the first thing we did
was went to a spot in Melbourne.

345
00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:43,320
I hope it isn't, I hope this
isn't a terrible place.

346
00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:45,880
We tried to find somewhere that
was, that seemed pretty ethical.

347
00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:47,360
It's called Healesville.
Sanctuary.

348
00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:50,640
Lovely, lovely.
OK, cool.

349
00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:54,080
And they had and like, because
we went on an off day, they had,

350
00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:57,080
you know, you could just like
book, like little like wildlife

351
00:17:57,080 --> 00:18:00,240
encounters quote UN quote for
for just a little extra cash,

352
00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:01,920
right, where you could just like
actually hang out with the

353
00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:04,360
animals, you know, the ones that
wanted to hang out like the

354
00:18:04,360 --> 00:18:05,840
koalas.
They were like, you can stand

355
00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:08,440
near them, but don't touch the
koalas or like the dingoes, they

356
00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:10,080
were like don't get close to the
dingo at all.

357
00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:14,160
What are you talking about?
But the wombats and the echidnas

358
00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:18,040
were super chill, right?
And so, so, you know, it's

359
00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:22,400
basically just just us and the
zookeeper and a wombat just kind

360
00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:26,360
of sat down in my lap and I, and
it wasn't so much, you know,

361
00:18:26,360 --> 00:18:27,880
like the wombat didn't make me
sad.

362
00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:31,240
I was just thinking like, man, 8
year old me would be losing his

363
00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:34,240
mind right now.
And so I, it was more like

364
00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:37,560
crying because I was like, oh,
I'm actually like taking care of

365
00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:40,800
child me and like child me
didn't really get taken care of

366
00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:42,600
that much.
So it's cool that adult me could

367
00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:45,160
come in here and through,
through the magic of time

368
00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:48,800
travel, like healed this little
tiny part of myself, you know?

369
00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:51,160
Yeah, the wombat was really
nice.

370
00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:54,240
Also, I my favorite thought,
legitimately my favorite were

371
00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:55,480
the echidnas.
They were.

372
00:18:55,920 --> 00:19:01,200
They were so sweet and strange
and you wouldn't think something

373
00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:06,600
so spiny would like pets but
they loved it so I fed them like

374
00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:09,280
bug mush and just paint.
Just petted them for.

375
00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:11,960
I love the Achiddos, they're
such weirdos.

376
00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:16,200
You you might know about wombats
as well, that their poop is

377
00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:18,360
cubic.
Cubed.

378
00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:22,040
Yeah, so it doesn't like fall
down the the mounds where

379
00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:23,480
they're trying to mark their
territory.

380
00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:26,760
So they're.
You're, I mean, obviously you

381
00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:30,040
know this, but like your whole
continent is full of bizarre and

382
00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:33,000
interesting.
This strange wildlife.

383
00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:35,920
It's obviously it's iconic, like
all Australians full of spiders

384
00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:38,000
and snakes.
But like, it's not, it's not

385
00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:42,120
just like literally every animal
is just adapted to live in a

386
00:19:42,120 --> 00:19:44,280
place that wants you dead all
the time.

387
00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:47,160
It's fascinating.
What a cool, what cool

388
00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:48,560
biodiversity you have over
there.

389
00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:52,480
And I hear what you were saying
about, you know, sanctuaries and

390
00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:54,680
zoos.
Like I walked into Adelaide Zoo

391
00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:56,040
for the first time a few weeks
ago.

392
00:19:56,280 --> 00:19:58,000
And as I was going there, I was
thinking, wait a minute, are

393
00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:00,720
zoos gross?
And and then as I went around, I

394
00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:03,440
realized they've got a
particular kind of bent on like

395
00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:06,280
endangered species and whatever.
And, and everything you pay for

396
00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:09,120
there goes into those efforts.
So I'm pretty sure everything's

397
00:20:09,120 --> 00:20:11,400
pretty above board.
Down our way.

398
00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:15,720
So, so Healesville is, is, yeah,
an absolute kind of staple out

399
00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:19,520
in the in the the ranges there.
Cool.

400
00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:23,040
Neil, did you have any other
like memories that you can share

401
00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:25,560
from your your touring days over
here?

402
00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:29,080
How much time you got?
I I loved it.

403
00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:33,280
I, I had so much fun.
I honestly wish like, you know,

404
00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:38,360
that was in 2017 and then or 8,
whatever the hell that was, you

405
00:20:38,360 --> 00:20:41,760
know, then I spent like the next
couple years like touring super

406
00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:43,960
hard because effectively what
happened, like part of the

407
00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:46,240
reason I was even in Australia
in the 1st place is OCD like

408
00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:50,200
weirdly went viral again in
2017.

409
00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:54,520
And that's how I was able to
cause like before that I've been

410
00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:56,760
touring primarily in colleges,
right?

411
00:20:56,920 --> 00:20:58,280
I'm getting to Australia, I
promise.

412
00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:01,440
And I've been touring primarily
in colleges.

413
00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:05,360
And then when it blew up again,
I got contacted by a bunch of

414
00:21:05,360 --> 00:21:08,000
folks that book like rock'n'roll
venues and stuff like that,

415
00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:12,160
which is actually how suddenly
there was enough money for me to

416
00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:14,960
like, I went to the UK a few
times and how And I was like,

417
00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:18,560
you know, went to Australia and
it was going to do Europe thing

418
00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:20,240
and then a little thing called
Covad happened, right?

419
00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:24,400
Australia was it, it, it was.
We were going to do an Australia

420
00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:27,400
and New Zealand thing and also
do Adelaide and Perth.

421
00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:30,560
But anyway, that was always my
plan was come back and do more

422
00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:32,280
shows.
But some of my favorite stuff.

423
00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:38,400
OK, literally like when we first
showed up in Brisbane, my, my

424
00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:41,440
wife, my wife Annie came with me
and we walked off the airplane

425
00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:45,080
and the, the dude from that met
us from the promoter was a

426
00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:48,560
former slash current Hell's
Angel named Gavin.

427
00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:50,040
He was like, you know, we just
walk.

428
00:21:50,120 --> 00:21:51,440
We just walk up.
He's like, hey guys, call me

429
00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:53,320
Gaz.
And we're like, sure, Gaz.

430
00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:57,240
And this dude, this dude like
6-4 totally tatted Gray hair,

431
00:21:57,240 --> 00:21:59,400
like long braid and stuff like
that.

432
00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:02,960
And, you know, and he was, I was
working with his promoter and he

433
00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:05,560
was like, yeah, I'm taking you
around all of Australia, right?

434
00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:08,840
And I was like, you are, that's
never happened before.

435
00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:11,000
He's like, yeah, you know, we
drive on the wrong side of the

436
00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:12,000
road.
You don't want to, you don't

437
00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:13,920
want to do that.
I was like, OK, but sure.

438
00:22:14,120 --> 00:22:17,160
And so literally like Gavin was
just with us this whole week

439
00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:21,080
just telling us these crazy ass
stories about what, what rock

440
00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:25,480
stars did in the 80s.
And also like him driving around

441
00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:28,280
comedians these days and now
comedians are total psychos.

442
00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:30,480
I think he was a little bummed
that I was like, I don't really

443
00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:34,320
drink that much, you know, I
don't, I don't know, like I

444
00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:36,600
don't know if you were trying to
go out in old Sydney, but I'm

445
00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:38,560
just not.
I just, I just don't want.

446
00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:41,600
Gavin was great, man.
There were, there were, you

447
00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:45,400
know, mostly he's just this very
sweet, very unassuming man.

448
00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:47,720
And then like, at one point,
like in the green room in

449
00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:52,520
Melbourne, like somebody who
was, yeah, a little, a little

450
00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:55,480
hammered, like started like
climbing the stairs trying to

451
00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:57,680
come in the green room pretty
much naked.

452
00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:00,040
I'm changing clothes.
And so Gavin, like, it's the

453
00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:02,200
first time I'd ever heard him
raise his voice.

454
00:23:02,360 --> 00:23:04,080
You kind of hear somebody coming
up the stairs.

455
00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:08,960
He looks around and he goes.
That's all you need sometimes.

456
00:23:09,360 --> 00:23:11,960
Yeah, right.
And then like I just heard.

457
00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:18,240
So, yeah, Gavin was great.
He's very, very protective.

458
00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:22,680
And like, he was very insistent
about like, he's like, OK, when

459
00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:25,960
we go to Sydney, there's just
one meat pie stand we have to go

460
00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:27,960
to.
It's my favorite part of Sydney.

461
00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:29,800
And you got to get it this
particular way.

462
00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:32,880
And I was like, sure, but I, I
will do literally whatever you

463
00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:35,360
tell me to do.
And he was correct.

464
00:23:35,360 --> 00:23:37,160
It was really, I don't remember
the name of it.

465
00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:38,720
I remember it was kind of down
by some wharfs.

466
00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:43,120
Maybe Australians know this.
But like, I, I, I was shocked at

467
00:23:43,120 --> 00:23:46,000
how cool Brisbane was.
I, you know, you always hear

468
00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:48,000
about like Sydney and Melbourne
and how they're like super cool

469
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:50,480
and, and culture.
But like Brisbane was, Brisbane

470
00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:55,800
was kind of my favorite.
Don't tell anybody, but I, I,

471
00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:58,960
there was, and maybe it was just
the neighborhoods we were in,

472
00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:03,720
but it felt like super punk rock
and like really, just like

473
00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:07,360
really comfy and DIY where it
was like all the, you know, a

474
00:24:07,360 --> 00:24:09,560
bunch of like musicians and
poets that showed up to the

475
00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:10,680
show.
They all clearly knew each

476
00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:12,720
other.
They were all like doing each

477
00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:14,360
other's shows.
I don't know.

478
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:19,880
I'm if comparably right.
It feels like in in the US, New

479
00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:22,480
York and Los Angeles are like
the places that everybody thinks

480
00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:24,600
of where all the cool stuff is
happening, all the arts going

481
00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:26,440
on.
And then I'm like, yeah, but

482
00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:29,320
there's, there's also really
cool art happening in

483
00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:32,920
Philadelphia and Portland and
Seattle and Chicago.

484
00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:37,040
You know, I, I'm, I'm always a,
I'm always a slightly smaller

485
00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:39,480
city where you can get to know
everybody in the scene type of

486
00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:40,880
dude.
And that's really what Brisbane

487
00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:42,720
felt like to me.
Yeah.

488
00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:44,000
No, it would.
It would, yeah.

489
00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:46,760
Yeah, so my apologies to
everybody in the very southeast

490
00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:48,640
of the country, but you know,
Brisbane was dope.

491
00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:51,560
That's fine.
Look, we're, we're happy to,

492
00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:53,320
happy to share the love, you
know?

493
00:24:54,120 --> 00:24:56,560
Good.
Yeah, Sydney, you know, Sydney

494
00:24:56,560 --> 00:25:00,560
is often seen as kind of the the
beating heart with, with some

495
00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:02,880
really, really big events down
that way.

496
00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:06,480
But Brisbane absolutely holds
it's own, you know, as does a

497
00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:08,640
lot of the East Coast.
So oh, that's good.

498
00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:11,120
I guess you're, you know, your,
your tour is only as good as

499
00:25:11,120 --> 00:25:13,720
your host.
So it sounds like Gaz was was

500
00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:15,800
the perfect, perfect.
Gaz was awesome.

501
00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:19,920
It was so much fun.
I I also, I felt super cool

502
00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:21,960
honestly.
Different, you know.

503
00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:24,640
Like it was so safe.
Oh God I was.

504
00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:27,000
I've honestly never been safer
in my life.

505
00:25:27,360 --> 00:25:28,520
That's it.
That's it.

506
00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:30,800
All you had to say was one word.
Yeah.

507
00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:31,880
One word.
Got it.

508
00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:34,920
Done.
Are are you, are you thinking of

509
00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:36,960
coming back at some point?
Is that?

510
00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:41,840
I'd love to it's, I mean, it
honestly, it feels like stuff is

511
00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:45,680
really just rebuilding now.
It feels like agents and

512
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:48,200
promoters are really just, they
were like, OK, we got to focus

513
00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:49,760
on the stuff that's going to
make us money.

514
00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:55,720
So like even like touring
musicians were, you know, a lot

515
00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:59,840
of folks in smaller bands had to
start booking DIY stuff, right?

516
00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:04,160
And so it all that is to say
that like the industry, the

517
00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:06,400
touring industry is absolutely
rebuilding, assuming we don't

518
00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:08,920
get plunged into a global
recession, that's a whole other

519
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:15,720
thing.
But it very much I would love to

520
00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:18,120
and it's absolutely a thing I
would love to do.

521
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:23,800
And my, my publisher button
poetry is we're, we're moving

522
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:26,360
into like them also being a
booking agency for me.

523
00:26:26,360 --> 00:26:29,640
Because an advantage that we
have as, as folks who do spoken

524
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:33,600
word is that like our tech needs
are and our, our tech needs, our

525
00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:35,720
staging needs are so minimal,
right?

526
00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:42,000
So if we, if we, we have, we've
done this a bit in the US, but

527
00:26:42,360 --> 00:26:44,000
we're thinking about doing it
internationally.

528
00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:46,280
We're kind of, we're going to do
a test in the UK first and see

529
00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:48,480
if this, if this system works
out.

530
00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:53,120
But basically like if we can
rent the venues ourselves and if

531
00:26:53,120 --> 00:26:55,160
they have APA, you know,
microphone, that's great.

532
00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:58,280
And if not, I can rent one when
I roll up, you know, if we can

533
00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:01,000
make that work.
I would love to go back to

534
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:03,200
Australia.
I had so much fun and I feel

535
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:05,320
like everybody needs poetry
right now.

536
00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:09,600
And if I could, if I could, if I
could help be a part of that in

537
00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:11,560
as many places as possible,
that's really what I want to do.

538
00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:15,240
That's a long answer to say yes,
yes, it's not.

539
00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:18,600
It's not explicitly but like
it's on my To Do List, you know?

540
00:27:19,360 --> 00:27:22,640
Yeah, yeah, high up on it.
And you know, I know that say

541
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:25,680
like Rudy Francisco had his tour
over here last year.

542
00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:27,960
Yeah.
I think the ground is is kind of

543
00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:31,880
set for for some bigger names.
I've got a forthcoming guest who

544
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:35,480
he's interested in coming and
was, was actually, you know,

545
00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:39,120
very, very kindly of him was
asking for my help to organise

546
00:27:39,120 --> 00:27:41,200
that tour.
And I was, I was trying to be

547
00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:42,880
clear that that's not really my
skill set.

548
00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:45,840
But I've tried my best to get
him in touch with, with, with

549
00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:48,840
some local, local events.
And yeah, we'll see whether that

550
00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:50,600
comes around.
So, yeah, Brad.

551
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:53,120
Yeah, people want it.
People want to go to Australia.

552
00:27:53,120 --> 00:27:55,760
Every poet I've ever talked to
about it has been like, Oh my

553
00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:58,440
God, I would love to.
I'm like you should it's it's

554
00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:01,160
inexpensive and insane to get
there, but once you're there

555
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:03,400
stuff it's actually pretty cheap
to get around.

556
00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:06,600
Once you're there, you've got
gas by your side, you're all

557
00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:07,040
good to go.
Sure.

558
00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:11,560
Man, if you got gas, you don't.
You'll get to the show.

559
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:16,560
You you got a mate.
You got a mate, Neil, I want to

560
00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:21,400
I want to zoom in on your most
famous Sloan poetry piece, which

561
00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:24,240
is OCD.
And you know, it's a piece that

562
00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:27,720
has really resonated deeply with
with millions of people.

563
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:31,280
And as much as it is, you know,
if you looked at that piece

564
00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:34,080
written in front of you on the
page, as much as it's, it's,

565
00:28:34,360 --> 00:28:38,600
it's fantastic and really pops
on the page for me, it really is

566
00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:41,560
the performative elements that
you brought to it, particularly

567
00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:46,720
in that recording in, in 2013.
You know, the fact that you've,

568
00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:50,360
you're so embodied when you when
you do it and, and you know,

569
00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:53,520
your, your voice cracking on, on
different words and, and you

570
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:56,200
know, the points where I, I
don't know if this was delivered

571
00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:58,560
or not, but it's almost like
you're ticking or something at,

572
00:28:58,560 --> 00:28:59,960
at some point in the in the
poem.

573
00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:03,160
You've been very open about like
your experience of, of mental

574
00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:05,600
illness and how that shaped your
work and your identity as a

575
00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:07,600
writer.
So can you, yeah.

576
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:09,880
Can you take us a little bit
more into that around, I guess

577
00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:13,680
the story behind the piece and
yeah, how your your experiences

578
00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:16,920
has shaped everything you do?
Yeah, for sure.

579
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:23,440
So it's funny that that poem
originally started as an

580
00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:27,240
entirely funny poem.
There was no turn in the middle.

581
00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:30,960
There wasn't any heartbreak,
honestly, originally started

582
00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:33,400
because like, I was just hanging
out with some friends and we

583
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:37,840
were just riffing about how like
how I have OCD and asthma.

584
00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:40,720
Isn't that so silly, right?
And then it's like we're just

585
00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:43,560
coming up with just a bunch of
jokes and like, so, so

586
00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:45,920
originally the poem started
this, this like sort of silly

587
00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:49,760
monologue about how like, oh, I
have OCD and asthma, That's why

588
00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:53,280
you broke up with me, right?
And then through successive

589
00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:57,480
drafts, it kind of we kind of
realized that like what the core

590
00:29:57,480 --> 00:29:59,960
of the poem was about.
I mean that that one went

591
00:29:59,960 --> 00:30:03,000
through like 20 drafts.
And so it was about 10 drafts in

592
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:06,600
that I finally that I finally
realized like, oh, what's this

593
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:12,000
poem's that this poem's actually
about how difficult it is to to

594
00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:15,120
have a close relationship with
somebody who has any kind of

595
00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:17,080
severe mental illness.
But in this case, OCD, because

596
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:18,680
that's what I had personal
experience with.

597
00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:22,360
And specifically with OCD, the
way it extracts time and

598
00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:25,560
patience from the person, from
the person you're close to,

599
00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:27,080
right?
And so that's it.

600
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:29,560
It's so funny that it took
everybody else knew what this

601
00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:31,720
poem was about, but it took me a
long time to realize what this

602
00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:36,080
poem was actually about, right
in, in the way that for every

603
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:38,200
especially spoken word piece,
you have 3 minutes, right?

604
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:41,200
So it's every spoken word piece,
the, the narrative can be a

605
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:43,880
little smoothed out.
So like that, you know, that

606
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:47,240
poem isn't like a 1 to 1
retelling of like my

607
00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:50,120
relationship with somebody.
It was, it was a combination of

608
00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:53,680
like of two different
relationships, mostly the one

609
00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:56,840
that I was actually in when I
was writing the poem, but some

610
00:30:56,840 --> 00:30:58,960
elements from, from a couple of
others.

611
00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:07,680
And some of the OCD is obviously
it's not just the ticks, right?

612
00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:10,840
The difficult part with OCD is
the obsessions and the ticks are

613
00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:14,600
just a physical, the ticks or
the, or the compulsions in

614
00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:17,560
general, or just a physical
manifestations of those

615
00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:20,360
obsessions, right?
And I, I have plenty of ticks

616
00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:22,320
and compulsions.
But for me, the, the difficult

617
00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:25,800
part has always been the, the
obsession of like, OK, so if

618
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:28,520
I'm, if I'm walking, you know,
OK, I'm at the top of these

619
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:31,560
stairs.
If I don't hit the, the, the top

620
00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:34,840
of stair with the heel of my
right foot, when I go down, I'm

621
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:37,760
going to fall down it and I'm
going to horribly injure myself

622
00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:39,720
and I'm going to linger for
three months and then I'm going

623
00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:42,240
to die, right?
So like, that's, that's what the

624
00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:45,920
obsession is.
And, and then the, the foot

625
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:49,000
hitting, the hitting The thing
is just the manifestation of it.

626
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:52,200
So for me that the time
consuming part and the part

627
00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:54,480
that's really, that's really
exhausting is always the, the

628
00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:58,200
obsessions.
So I, I couldn't necessarily

629
00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:01,880
include all, all of my all of my
obsessions and all of my ticks

630
00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:04,400
in the poem because some of some
of them are a little bit

631
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:08,720
weirder, dude.
Like like if certain textures

632
00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:13,840
touch like touch my skin, I have
to like like, like for instance

633
00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:17,400
those like fake plush velvet
blankets, if those touch me, I

634
00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:20,560
have to then wipe off my skin
with like multiple different

635
00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:21,880
textures.
Otherwise I'm going to continue

636
00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:23,800
feeling that texture and it's
going to get louder and louder

637
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:28,440
and louder until I I freak the
hell out and then have a genuine

638
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:31,160
panic attack right.
So, but like that's a little bit

639
00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:34,640
harder and more esoteric to say
in 3 minutes in a slam poem.

640
00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:41,680
So while in my past, I like door
locking was a big thing and

641
00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:44,320
light checking was a big thing,
that's when I was writing the

642
00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:46,480
poem.
I was like this.

643
00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:50,760
I had been doing a therapy that
those weren't actively affecting

644
00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:54,360
me in that moment.
But it's the touchstones that

645
00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:58,000
people have for OCD.
And I was like, OK, everybody

646
00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:01,200
can get this.
And that's a lens to get into

647
00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:04,400
the conversation I actually want
to have, which is about this

648
00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:06,600
time and patience thing in the
relationship.

649
00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:10,520
And it's funny because the
whole, the whole poem, I

650
00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:14,120
originally, like wrote and
drafted it a bunch because the

651
00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:19,200
team from my college was going
to college nationals in, you

652
00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:21,920
know, wherever the hell it was
Ann Arbor, MI that year.

653
00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:25,480
And we, we just, you know,
needed a competition piece.

654
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:28,640
And this was like, this was a
poem that I really liked and I,

655
00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:30,960
I believed in it.
And like we happened to win that

656
00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:33,560
year, partially because of the
strength of that poem, but also

657
00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:36,280
like everybody on the team, we
all just worked really hard,

658
00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:38,400
right?
And so, so in my head, when I

659
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:40,720
was, when I was doing drafts of
it, I was like, I'm just going

660
00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:42,480
to win.
We're going to, we're going to

661
00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:44,520
go to the competition and we're
going to try to win this thing.

662
00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:50,640
And but because it, because it
worked, I, you know, I did it at

663
00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:53,720
shows and did it on tour.
Like, you know, my friends and I

664
00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:56,680
booked some DIY tours after,
after some of those

665
00:33:56,680 --> 00:34:02,040
competitions.
And weirdly, the performance of

666
00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:05,600
the performance that shows up in
the video that went viral, that

667
00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:08,600
was going to be my last time
ever performing it, right?

668
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:11,040
I've been, I've been doing it
for years and years.

669
00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:14,960
And I had technically already
retired the poem because

670
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:17,760
especially if you're in the slam
world, you like, you can see

671
00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:20,239
when scores start to drop off
after a while, when you've been

672
00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:23,159
doing a poem over and over.
And like, judges get used to it,

673
00:34:23,159 --> 00:34:26,560
audiences get used to it, right?
And so, and I had seen that

674
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:28,400
happen with this poem.
And I was like, OK, I'm going to

675
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:29,760
retire this.
I'm going to put it aside.

676
00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:32,880
And when we went to that
tournament, the Rust Belt

677
00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:35,520
Regional Poacher Slam, it was in
like Madison, WI that year.

678
00:34:36,159 --> 00:34:40,760
I made it to individual finals.
And Sam, the president of Button

679
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:45,000
poetry, brand new at the time,
they were filming that, that

680
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:46,760
that tournament.
And Sam was just like, hey,

681
00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:49,000
Neil, you made Indy finals.
That's great.

682
00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:50,800
I don't have a good video of
OCD.

683
00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:53,600
Just go do it, right.
And so I just like walk up a

684
00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:56,360
stage, be like, this is the last
time I'm ever going to perform

685
00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:59,560
this poem.
Little that I know, right?

686
00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:03,600
Wink, wink.
This is the 80s.

687
00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:05,960
It's like record scratch.
You're probably wondering how I

688
00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:11,400
got Yeah anyway, but but it
what's nice about that, and I

689
00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:13,800
think that's a thing that I was
sort of talking about earlier.

690
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:18,000
It's like I got really lucky in
that moment with that video.

691
00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:22,680
But that kind of ignores the
years I had spent performing

692
00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:26,520
like I'd probably between
performances in front of people

693
00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:30,040
and practicing that poem with
myself and in front of teams,

694
00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:33,040
Like I'd performed that poem
like over 1000 times, you know?

695
00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:38,000
So it's like like, yeah, I
absolutely got lucky with that,

696
00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:41,280
with that video and happened and
like the fact that we happen to

697
00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:45,720
get that performance of it, but
that that one moment is also the

698
00:35:45,720 --> 00:35:48,360
culmination of years of work and
practice.

699
00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:51,520
You know, it is funny to think
about like this this one time in

700
00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:54,240
2013, but like, I started
writing a poem in 2010, you

701
00:35:54,240 --> 00:35:57,680
know?
So yeah, man, what a cool.

702
00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:00,880
What a cool little moment.
That's fascinating because I

703
00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:05,560
imagine you would have got up
there, you know, so, so relaxed,

704
00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:08,240
for lack of a better word, with,
with like no pretense going like

705
00:36:08,240 --> 00:36:11,840
this is this is something I've,
I've been doing for a long time.

706
00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:14,600
So you're already comfortable
with the with the way it kind of

707
00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:16,680
flows.
I think that's very freeing to

708
00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:20,960
be able to to just go, Hey, this
is one more time for old times

709
00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:23,920
sake.
And yeah, it just it just kind

710
00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:25,880
of took off.
So, so congratulations.

711
00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:28,840
Thank you.
It's also so funny with that

712
00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:31,080
relaxation.
I don't ever swear in that poem.

713
00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:34,200
That's literally one of the only
performances that I ever, I ever

714
00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:36,480
swear ever.
And it just came out of my mouth

715
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:39,560
for some reason.
And now, now every time,

716
00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:41,880
especially I do, you know, shows
of like high schools or middle

717
00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:44,920
schools, they're like, OK, so
can this this be a clean set?

718
00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:47,600
I'm like, yeah, I'm so sorry.
Like, I didn't mean it, you

719
00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:49,760
know?
Anyway, whatever.

720
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:54,640
And, and it's interesting.
I mean, I'm interested what you,

721
00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:55,960
I'm interested what you think
about this.

722
00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:59,200
So I, I feel like a term, a
term, right?

723
00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:03,920
Like OCD, you know, is, is, is
sometimes thrown around a bit

724
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:06,760
casually, you know, people go,
oh, I'm so OCD about this.

725
00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:10,880
To the point where if, if I hear
someone say that, I, I generally

726
00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:12,920
have to ask them.
I'm not necessarily being

727
00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:14,840
confrontational about it, but I
generally have to ask them,

728
00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:16,040
especially if I don't know them
very well.

729
00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:19,360
I'm like, oh, did you mean that
like diagnostically or or were

730
00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:21,720
you just using that as a, as a
term phrase?

731
00:37:21,720 --> 00:37:24,840
So do you think we're getting,
we're getting closer to, I don't

732
00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:27,560
know, maybe not not doing that
crap so much?

733
00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:32,560
I think in general, as a, as a
world, we're trying to be more,

734
00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:36,320
I mean, some of us are trying to
be more sensitive about like

735
00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:39,040
the, the way that we casually
use language in the world.

736
00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:42,440
It's, it's never, it's never
really bothered me because like,

737
00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:45,480
I know at least most of the time
when people say stuff like that,

738
00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:48,360
it's, it's not, there's no
malice in it.

739
00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:49,760
There's no like malicious
intent.

740
00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:54,320
It's it's mostly just honestly,
man, also at the same time it I

741
00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:56,280
get it.
It's hard to think about every

742
00:37:56,280 --> 00:38:01,360
single thing you say out in the
world and like that, that can be

743
00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:03,320
exhausting.
And so, you know, like sometimes

744
00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:04,280
stuff just comes out of your
mouth.

745
00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:08,840
I get it, right.
But I think that in general,

746
00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:13,320
folks are thinking a lot harder
about the ways in which the

747
00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:19,000
stuff we say might actually, for
lack of a better term, like make

748
00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:22,400
people around us feel terrible,
you know, because like I, I

749
00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:24,080
don't get bothered by it.
But that doesn't mean that

750
00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:28,240
somebody who has OCD wouldn't
feel trivialized by somebody

751
00:38:28,240 --> 00:38:31,040
being like, I'm just so OCD.
I like to have my socks in a

752
00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:34,480
particular order, you know, And
it's like, Nah, dude, that's

753
00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:37,680
like, that's not what it is.
Like, you know, like if you

754
00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:41,120
said, like I'm so OCD, I've
washed my hands a million times

755
00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:44,120
and now they're bleeding that
that to me like that, that

756
00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:47,680
anyway, sorry, I'm not being I'm
not being articulate about this,

757
00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:51,200
but I think that in general in
the world, they're I'm seeing a

758
00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:54,600
movement toward people just
being more careful with with the

759
00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:56,680
the terminology and the stuff
they use out in the world.

760
00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:01,320
Well, look, the bottom line is
it's, it's a fantastic piece

761
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:04,480
And, and you know, it's one of
those things where whenever I

762
00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:09,400
see it pop up on my you know,
for you page or whatever, I, I

763
00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:13,000
will always watch it.
I will always make time for Neil

764
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:17,280
and, and the piece OCD.
So, and again, it's, it's, it's

765
00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:20,400
been so impactful now on those
lines.

766
00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:24,280
I, I'm interested in, in what
the role that writing has played

767
00:39:24,720 --> 00:39:29,520
in kind of, you know, bringing
you clarity or healing in ways

768
00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:32,200
that, you know, you mentioned,
you mentioned therapy.

769
00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:36,640
A lot of people you, you know,
might have a medication for, for

770
00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:39,800
something like this.
Has how is writing formed part

771
00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:42,120
of you know Wellness or balance
for you?

772
00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:45,600
First of all, sometimes people
will talk about poetry as

773
00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:47,760
therapy and I'm like, no, no,
no, therapy is therapy.

774
00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:50,240
Just Just want to put that out
there.

775
00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:54,520
And obviously that's loaded.
Like not everybody has time or

776
00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:58,120
funds or access to therapy.
But if you have that access,

777
00:39:58,160 --> 00:40:01,360
that to me, that's always been
the biggest tool.

778
00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:04,920
If you don't have that access,
writing also is an incredible

779
00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:06,680
tool specifically for this
reason.

780
00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:09,480
Having any kind of mental
illness, I think I don't want to

781
00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:14,000
speak for everybody, but the
certainly for me, one of the,

782
00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:16,640
the, the biggest thing that
writing has done for me is

783
00:40:16,640 --> 00:40:19,520
helped me externalize my
internal state.

784
00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:23,480
Like if I'm having an intrusive
thought or having like some kind

785
00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:26,560
of obsession that's just going
around and around, it's if it's

786
00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:30,520
just in my brain, I can, I can
ignore it, I can discount it.

787
00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:33,080
I can say, Oh, that's not real.
That's, you know, I can do

788
00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:35,080
whatever rationalization that's
occurred to me, right?

789
00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:38,600
But actually write it down on a
physical piece of paper and I'm

790
00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:41,320
I'm looking at it, my brain
shifts.

791
00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:44,080
I'm like, Oh, this is real.
This is a real feeling that a

792
00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:46,040
real person had.
And it's clear that they had it

793
00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:47,800
because it's written down in
front of them, you know?

794
00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:55,360
And so externalizing a thing has
helped me, one, believe that my

795
00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:59,360
internal state is real.
And two, then begin to start

796
00:40:59,720 --> 00:41:01,920
working on that internal state,
right?

797
00:41:02,000 --> 00:41:05,960
It because suddenly, like when
it's not just a nebulous thing

798
00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:09,480
in my brain, I can like make
plans and be like, Oh, well,

799
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:12,680
like, obviously, Neil, you're
not going to fall down the

800
00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:15,680
stairs if you don't, not to use
this as a metaphor all the time.

801
00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:18,280
But like if you, if you don't
hit the top stair with the heel

802
00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:20,920
of your boot, because because
you're already looking at the

803
00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:23,280
stairs and you've walked down
stairs thousands of times and

804
00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:26,360
you've fallen down them twice,
statistically, Neil, you're not

805
00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:28,520
going to, you're not going to
fall down these stairs, right?

806
00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:34,120
So for me, writing has always
been my primary form of

807
00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:38,560
metacognition.
You know where it, it helps me

808
00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:44,720
think about my, my thoughts
rather than just being subject

809
00:41:44,720 --> 00:41:46,400
to them.
Whether or not you got a

810
00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:48,680
therapist, you can write down,
you can write down what you're

811
00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:51,440
feeling and then maybe later, if
you want, you can turn it into a

812
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:54,440
pretty poem or an ugly poem or
whatever kind of poem you want.

813
00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:57,800
But the, the first aid is just,
it's just brain literally

814
00:41:57,800 --> 00:41:59,600
brainstorming, just getting the
stuff out of your brain.

815
00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:00,800
I'll do a piece of paper in
front of you.

816
00:42:01,640 --> 00:42:05,240
Yeah, I think a term that might
be used for it is, is like

817
00:42:05,240 --> 00:42:09,120
diffusion, you know what I mean?
Creating a well, you know,

818
00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:11,280
especially if you're if you're
writing on a page like almost

819
00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:15,480
creating a physical, a physical
or metaphorical distance between

820
00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:20,640
you and and and the thought, I
suppose. 1000%, yeah.

821
00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:24,360
And it's, yeah, literal
distance.

822
00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:27,680
Also, it gives you a sense of
control a little bit where it's

823
00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:30,680
like, well, now the thought is
on a piece of paper and I can

824
00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:32,440
tear that paper up.
I can burn it.

825
00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:34,800
I can, I can write it 1000
times.

826
00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:38,240
And then suddenly the feeling is
in 1000 pages is in 1000 pieces

827
00:42:38,240 --> 00:42:39,560
on 1000 different pieces of
paper.

828
00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:43,600
There's the the The metaphor is
simple, but it's right there.

829
00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:45,720
Yeah, yeah.
And I think especially in, in,

830
00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:48,640
you know, like a therapy school,
like ACT, yeah, there are all

831
00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:50,560
these exercises you could do.
Like, you know, they encourage

832
00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:53,800
you to, to, you know, if you're
troubled by thought to like put

833
00:42:53,800 --> 00:42:55,320
it in a song or something like
that.

834
00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:58,800
And, and to try and, and see
how, how malleable it can be

835
00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:02,680
and, and to make it.
Yeah, how malleable you can make

836
00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:04,680
it.
So, yeah, no, thanks.

837
00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:08,600
Thanks for the insights there.
I'm wondering what, what do you

838
00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:10,600
think?
Like how?

839
00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:13,360
How do you measure growth as as
a poet?

840
00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:16,720
You've obviously been doing this
thing for a long time in many,

841
00:43:16,720 --> 00:43:21,520
many different contexts.
What's your perspective on how

842
00:43:21,520 --> 00:43:24,320
you measure your own growth in
what you've done?

843
00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:29,760
This is this is going to be an
annoying answer, but it's really

844
00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:32,480
just am I, am I continuing to
entertain myself?

845
00:43:32,920 --> 00:43:37,400
OK, I always try to think of
myself as my main audience,

846
00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:41,720
right?
Like I, I try to create art that

847
00:43:41,720 --> 00:43:46,640
I would want to read because I
think at this point I got pretty

848
00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:49,360
good taste.
You know, I, I've consumed a

849
00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:53,480
bunch of a bunch of all kinds of
forms of art, but especially

850
00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:55,720
poetry.
Like I'm, I've watched a bunch

851
00:43:55,720 --> 00:43:57,480
of poems.
I've read, I've read so much

852
00:43:57,480 --> 00:44:00,400
poetry at this point.
I'm obviously I haven't, you

853
00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:03,040
know, I'm not the most well read
person in the, in the poetry

854
00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:06,400
genre, but I've read a bunch of
stuff and I, I think the stuff

855
00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:09,880
that I like is pretty cool.
So if I can read something that

856
00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:12,120
I wrote and be like, oh, I like
that.

857
00:44:12,120 --> 00:44:15,400
I I think, I think I'm
entertaining the person I'm

858
00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:20,560
trying, I'm trying to, I'm
trying to captivate right again.

859
00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:26,240
So, so this is, this is so
pretentious, but but like I look

860
00:44:26,240 --> 00:44:28,240
at my old poems, not that I
don't like them.

861
00:44:28,240 --> 00:44:33,720
I like them so much, but I can
I'm like, clearly Neil at 25

862
00:44:33,720 --> 00:44:36,040
wrote that, right?
And Neil at 25 is cool.

863
00:44:36,040 --> 00:44:39,160
When he was doing, he was doing
a cool thing and he was doing

864
00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:44,320
what he needed to do.
But Neil, Neil now like how

865
00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:48,840
would Neil now write that poem?
And then being, and I like

866
00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:53,200
tracking my progress that way
where it's like, do I have

867
00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:56,360
literally just like if I, I'll
do this sometimes as an

868
00:44:56,360 --> 00:45:01,440
exercise, I'll rewrite some of
my old poems and just see how

869
00:45:01,800 --> 00:45:03,520
see how I would think about them
now.

870
00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:06,040
Like what are my new, what are
my new moves?

871
00:45:06,080 --> 00:45:07,960
Like?
What do I have like a new

872
00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:12,040
structure for a poem in my brain
that I could take this old thing

873
00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:15,680
like this, this older poem about
like feeling lonely on the road.

874
00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:17,720
Like how like would I write
that?

875
00:45:18,520 --> 00:45:23,840
Would I write that now as as a
Sistina where the the each of

876
00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:27,280
the repeated N words is all the
name of like a fast food

877
00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:29,840
franchise that I'm driving by on
the highway or something like

878
00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:32,920
that.
Like so I I think that's I don't

879
00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:35,640
know that that's the main thing
is like, do I do I still think

880
00:45:35,640 --> 00:45:38,800
of poems are cool?
Like do I do I think that I'm

881
00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:42,960
performing better now than I
used to because like I've been

882
00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:45,160
in every single one of my shows.
I don't know anybody else has

883
00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:48,120
been in every single one of my
shows, but like I have a pretty

884
00:45:48,120 --> 00:45:52,760
good like progress tracker in my
head of like, Oh yeah, that's

885
00:45:52,760 --> 00:45:56,440
how, that's how I was doing
shows at rock venues in 2017.

886
00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:59,200
But like, I got a couple more
moves now, like I've got, I've

887
00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:02,080
got, I've got crowd work.
I know how to like I've got a

888
00:46:02,080 --> 00:46:05,560
whole like I've got a like a
little like voice effect box

889
00:46:05,560 --> 00:46:10,240
that like lets me do like
doubling and echo and like I use

890
00:46:10,240 --> 00:46:12,560
it all the time, but I can use
it for flash if I want to.

891
00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:16,120
Like I've better understanding
of like mic dynamics and stuff

892
00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:18,160
like that.
So so it's just I'm literally

893
00:46:18,160 --> 00:46:20,080
just paying attention to the
small stuff and be like, am I

894
00:46:20,080 --> 00:46:22,520
still learning?
Am I still trying new things?

895
00:46:22,520 --> 00:46:26,040
Am I am I would I like this show
if I was at it?

896
00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:27,440
I don't know.
Does that make sense that I just

897
00:46:27,440 --> 00:46:28,800
said a bunch of words?
I hope that.

898
00:46:29,360 --> 00:46:32,480
Yeah, no, for sure.
Because I mean, at the end of

899
00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:36,600
the day, if you're, if you're
not a fan of your own work and

900
00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:40,160
you're not enjoying it, I mean,
what, what's the point?

901
00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:44,160
You've got to have that locus of
control within you to be like,

902
00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:47,600
to, to try and be your, your
biggest fan.

903
00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:49,720
I suppose.
I I, I've had so many

904
00:46:49,720 --> 00:46:53,400
interesting conversations with
artists where there's this push

905
00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:57,000
and pull between like being
understood or being accessible

906
00:46:57,000 --> 00:46:59,360
and I guess being true to your
style.

907
00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:02,760
If it's a little bit more, if
it's a little bit more abstract

908
00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:05,720
and not as as literal when it
comes to storytelling.

909
00:47:05,720 --> 00:47:08,200
I mean, that's, that's still
something I'm, I'm kind of

910
00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:10,680
working out, you know what, what
side I want to fall on.

911
00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:12,760
So now that makes, that makes
perfect sense.

912
00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:15,040
Yeah.
I think I also, I feel really

913
00:47:15,040 --> 00:47:18,520
fortunate that my style just
happens to be a little more

914
00:47:18,520 --> 00:47:21,720
literal and narrative.
I've been, I've, I have been

915
00:47:21,720 --> 00:47:24,720
pushing myself to get a little
weirder and take a couple of

916
00:47:24,720 --> 00:47:29,000
swings, but I'm also lucky
enough to have editors who can

917
00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:32,080
pull me back when I'm getting
maybe a little too weird.

918
00:47:32,080 --> 00:47:34,000
You know, like there's there's a
couple poems in the new book

919
00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:36,400
that are that I was really
certain we're going to get a

920
00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:38,760
cut, right.
There's one where like, I

921
00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:41,760
imagine it's, it's all a persona
piece, but like from the

922
00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:47,400
perspective of like a coroner in
2130, something who is like who

923
00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:51,760
is, who is like doing an autopsy
on my body.

924
00:47:51,760 --> 00:47:54,320
But I've lived forever and I've
become a Cyborg, right?

925
00:47:54,760 --> 00:47:57,400
And so like that, that I was
just like, I'm just going to,

926
00:47:57,400 --> 00:47:59,520
I'm just going to try something
to see what happens.

927
00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:02,320
And I was really certain that
that that was going to get cut.

928
00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:04,760
But but Michael, my editor, you
loved it.

929
00:48:04,920 --> 00:48:07,760
They were just like, yeah, cool.
This is a weird poem.

930
00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:09,800
Let's do it.
So anyway, I think that's the

931
00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:12,320
other like, I again, feel
fortunate that most of the time

932
00:48:12,320 --> 00:48:15,680
I'm pretty accessible.
But but then when I take some

933
00:48:15,680 --> 00:48:19,360
swings, I have some people I can
ask, Hey, is this is this dumb?

934
00:48:19,440 --> 00:48:23,600
You know so.
Good you got you got the brains

935
00:48:23,600 --> 00:48:25,440
trust you got the.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

936
00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:27,480
Trouble cancelled the thing,
right?

937
00:48:28,120 --> 00:48:29,560
God.
Oh, I'm going to leave.

938
00:48:29,960 --> 00:48:31,840
Yeah, but no.
Yeah, for sure.

939
00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:38,000
Wonderful.
I think we're ready for piece #2

940
00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:39,920
Aneal.
If you wanted to set the stage

941
00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:41,800
for this one, I.
Would love to.

942
00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:46,280
So this poem, I don't know.
No, I do know why.

943
00:48:46,280 --> 00:48:48,120
I was going to say I don't know
why this poem is really

944
00:48:48,120 --> 00:48:49,520
connecting with me, but I know
why.

945
00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:51,480
The first time I've ever
performed, I performed it

946
00:48:51,480 --> 00:48:54,960
memorized was at this poetry
tournament in Minnesota.

947
00:48:54,960 --> 00:48:56,560
I just did the Midwest poetry
mashup.

948
00:48:56,640 --> 00:49:00,160
Shout out Ali, Tanisha and Zach,
the organizers of the Midwest

949
00:49:00,160 --> 00:49:04,960
poetry mashup.
I So anyway, this poem, this

950
00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:10,960
poem is, it's about Taco Bell,
but it's actually an ode to

951
00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:14,160
being in your 30s and being
settled and a little more a

952
00:49:14,200 --> 00:49:17,040
little more stable.
I don't think you'll have Taco

953
00:49:17,040 --> 00:49:21,200
Bell, but Taco Bell it's sort of
legendary at this point anyway.

954
00:49:21,360 --> 00:49:24,920
We do have it actually, but it's
not doing very well over here.

955
00:49:24,920 --> 00:49:26,920
It's fun, so it might not be if
much longer.

956
00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:31,720
Well, I think honestly, I think
it mostly, it mostly like it

957
00:49:31,720 --> 00:49:34,680
works in the American context
because it's like people like,

958
00:49:34,680 --> 00:49:37,120
Oh, it's not real Mexican food.
I'm like, no, it's Taco Bell.

959
00:49:37,160 --> 00:49:41,320
But because we have like we have
so much cultural reference with

960
00:49:41,560 --> 00:49:44,560
Mexican food and with Tex Mex
that like something being that

961
00:49:44,600 --> 00:49:47,800
adjacent and quick and fast and
cheap really works.

962
00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:51,000
Anyway, whatever I this poem's
about.

963
00:49:51,600 --> 00:49:53,360
This poem's about Taco Bell but
not really.

964
00:49:54,200 --> 00:50:00,560
It's called self-portrait AS2
bean burritos and a cheese

965
00:50:00,560 --> 00:50:04,880
quesadilla.
I'm trying to come up with more

966
00:50:04,880 --> 00:50:08,280
creative ways to respond when
people ask me how old I am.

967
00:50:08,840 --> 00:50:11,680
Old enough to know better but
not enough to do better.

968
00:50:12,240 --> 00:50:16,360
My AIM away message was a no FX
quote.

969
00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:21,440
Seriously it was kill the pain.
Integrity don't keep you warm

970
00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:26,720
and sane.
Anyway, how about I'm the age

971
00:50:26,720 --> 00:50:30,120
where I don't eat the meat from
Taco Bell anymore?

972
00:50:30,440 --> 00:50:33,200
Not just because of factory
farms and being a responsible

973
00:50:33,200 --> 00:50:38,960
person in the world, although
yes that, but mostly because I'm

974
00:50:38,960 --> 00:50:42,840
already spending the maximum
amount of time in the bathroom

975
00:50:42,840 --> 00:50:45,600
allowable by my marriage.
Shut up.

976
00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:48,800
I don't need to see a doctor.
It's just the only room where I

977
00:50:48,800 --> 00:50:53,000
can be naked and alone and
legally no one can open the door

978
00:50:53,000 --> 00:50:56,920
without asking.
Shut up, I don't need to be

979
00:50:56,920 --> 00:51:00,440
alone because I'm depressed.
I want to be alone because these

980
00:51:00,440 --> 00:51:05,640
days I'm pretty good company.
OK, so self-portrait as my Taco

981
00:51:05,640 --> 00:51:10,640
Bell order a thing that does its
job and is then forgotten. 2

982
00:51:10,640 --> 00:51:14,000
burritos and a quesadilla.
Shows up to the party with a six

983
00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:17,000
pack and a tool belt.
Fixes the garbage grinder.

984
00:51:17,000 --> 00:51:20,440
Doesn't drink your beer, leaves
before things get weird.

985
00:51:20,640 --> 00:51:24,880
self-portrait as getting to go
to bed at 9:30 because

986
00:51:24,960 --> 00:51:28,240
tomorrow's going to be pretty
rad and I want to be awake for

987
00:51:28,240 --> 00:51:30,640
it.
Self-portrait is taking a bunch

988
00:51:30,640 --> 00:51:33,960
of ibuprofen because I don't
drink anymore and I can redo

989
00:51:34,040 --> 00:51:38,200
distribute the ways I'm bad to
my liver. self-portrait as no

990
00:51:38,200 --> 00:51:41,760
more bike rides through
thunderstorms to the booty

991
00:51:41,840 --> 00:51:45,600
because the booty is snoring
right next to me.

992
00:51:45,840 --> 00:51:49,040
No more bad weeks, only bad
days.

993
00:51:49,280 --> 00:51:55,320
No SOS is in gasoline on the
lawn, No bathroom scale, no long

994
00:51:55,320 --> 00:51:59,120
glares in the mirror.
No more hurting myself except to

995
00:51:59,120 --> 00:52:03,960
make it hurt less next time.
Self-portrait in the Taco Bell

996
00:52:04,040 --> 00:52:10,640
drive through Tuesday night.
Just one trivia back hurts in

997
00:52:10,640 --> 00:52:18,280
park, windows down, sleep only
45 minutes away waiting my turn.

998
00:52:21,760 --> 00:52:24,840
You're so stupid.
No, I loved it.

999
00:52:24,880 --> 00:52:25,440
I loved it.
I.

1000
00:52:25,600 --> 00:52:29,680
Loved it, thank you.
To, to the Taco Bell thing,

1001
00:52:30,000 --> 00:52:33,680
yeah, we'll, we'll see where,
where it is in Australia in five

1002
00:52:33,680 --> 00:52:35,240
years.
But yeah, there there's some

1003
00:52:35,240 --> 00:52:37,120
local alternatives which have
popped up.

1004
00:52:37,120 --> 00:52:40,160
Like I don't know if you if we
had Guzmani Gomez over here when

1005
00:52:40,160 --> 00:52:43,600
you were last over here, but
that, that's more like when

1006
00:52:43,600 --> 00:52:45,840
people think Mexican food,
that's more the chain they think

1007
00:52:45,840 --> 00:52:46,760
of.
So hell yeah, yeah.

1008
00:52:46,840 --> 00:52:47,960
It's very competitive.
Honestly.

1009
00:52:48,200 --> 00:52:49,520
Honestly, take them down
forever.

1010
00:52:49,520 --> 00:52:51,960
Like, I don't like, Taco Bell
doesn't need to exist in the

1011
00:52:51,960 --> 00:52:53,240
world.
And if it burst into flames

1012
00:52:53,240 --> 00:52:54,560
tomorrow, I'd be thrilled, you
know?

1013
00:52:54,560 --> 00:52:57,160
But like, But it's a cultural
touchstone, and it's the one

1014
00:52:57,160 --> 00:52:58,720
that I used for this particular
thing.

1015
00:52:59,040 --> 00:52:59,960
Of course.
Of course.

1016
00:53:00,320 --> 00:53:00,720
Yeah.
Yeah.

1017
00:53:00,720 --> 00:53:01,960
Yeah.
I've been submitted that poem

1018
00:53:01,960 --> 00:53:04,040
to.
There's a literary magazine

1019
00:53:04,040 --> 00:53:07,840
called Taco Bell Quarterly,
which started off as just a joke

1020
00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:10,000
by the folks that run the Paris
Review, but now it's actually

1021
00:53:10,000 --> 00:53:13,720
become, like, wildly popular.
So, you know, fingers crossed I

1022
00:53:13,720 --> 00:53:18,240
get into Taco Bell Quarterly.
So good.

1023
00:53:18,240 --> 00:53:21,840
No, no, very, very nice.
Neil, I'm wondering if you can

1024
00:53:21,840 --> 00:53:24,480
take us behind the the curtain
now.

1025
00:53:24,800 --> 00:53:29,640
I do love talking about each
artist's creative process as

1026
00:53:29,640 --> 00:53:31,320
much as we can have words for
it.

1027
00:53:31,840 --> 00:53:36,320
Do you have any thoughts on or
reflections on how exactly you

1028
00:53:36,320 --> 00:53:39,360
kind of put together a finished
piece?

1029
00:53:40,080 --> 00:53:42,240
Yeah, for sure.
These days.

1030
00:53:42,240 --> 00:53:45,000
These days the process is
actually like pretty.

1031
00:53:46,000 --> 00:53:48,480
It's pretty well defined.
In the past I would have told

1032
00:53:48,480 --> 00:53:51,200
you like, I don't know, I just
wait for the inspiration to show

1033
00:53:51,200 --> 00:53:53,600
up and I would have had like a
very long winded answer.

1034
00:53:53,960 --> 00:53:58,280
But these days it's so for the
past five years, since 2020,

1035
00:53:58,280 --> 00:54:00,480
I've been running a online
writing workshop.

1036
00:54:01,200 --> 00:54:02,800
Shout out also it's called my
writing circle.

1037
00:54:03,160 --> 00:54:05,960
It's all on my website.
If you're interested in coming.

1038
00:54:05,960 --> 00:54:09,720
It's every single Wednesday for
y'all, It's it, it'd be Tuesday

1039
00:54:10,000 --> 00:54:11,880
for me.
It's Wednesday at 8:00 PM, which

1040
00:54:11,880 --> 00:54:14,040
means for y'all, it's like
Tuesday at about 10:00 or 11:00

1041
00:54:14,040 --> 00:54:17,520
AM, depending on what I mean
Thursday, Sorry for for y'all,

1042
00:54:17,520 --> 00:54:19,960
It's it's, it's you're behind,
but it's tomorrow.

1043
00:54:20,000 --> 00:54:21,880
You know what I mean?
Time zones are weird.

1044
00:54:22,280 --> 00:54:26,560
It, we do it every single, every
single Wednesday night and I

1045
00:54:26,560 --> 00:54:28,960
give writing prompts and then we
have structured writing time and

1046
00:54:28,960 --> 00:54:33,440
then we just do an open mic of
the poems that we just wrote.

1047
00:54:33,440 --> 00:54:36,720
So it's, it's been this cool
community that I've sort of

1048
00:54:36,720 --> 00:54:38,560
accidentally started.
You know, I thought I was going

1049
00:54:38,560 --> 00:54:41,560
to run like 2 workshops in 2020
because I was bored and stuck in

1050
00:54:41,560 --> 00:54:44,600
my house and then people loved
it and the community stuck

1051
00:54:44,600 --> 00:54:47,680
around.
So, so so for me, the process is

1052
00:54:47,680 --> 00:54:51,920
literally like at least at least
once a week, I sit down at my, I

1053
00:54:51,920 --> 00:54:56,880
sit down at my desk and with my
friends, I write 2 poems and I

1054
00:54:56,880 --> 00:54:59,400
usually write more than that.
I'll write some during the week

1055
00:54:59,400 --> 00:55:01,480
or just like when something
jumps out and inspires me.

1056
00:55:01,800 --> 00:55:05,960
But I'm a firm believer that
like, you need to, even when

1057
00:55:05,960 --> 00:55:08,240
you're not feeling, when you
don't get that lightning bolt of

1058
00:55:08,240 --> 00:55:11,520
inspiration, you still need to
sit down and produce something.

1059
00:55:11,840 --> 00:55:14,240
Because who knows?
Maybe after you work through

1060
00:55:14,240 --> 00:55:16,440
four or five lines, your brain
will kick in and be like, oh,

1061
00:55:16,440 --> 00:55:18,080
actually I needed to talk about
this, right?

1062
00:55:18,360 --> 00:55:20,760
That that's been, that's how
every first draft has been

1063
00:55:20,760 --> 00:55:22,480
produced.
I always write poems.

1064
00:55:22,640 --> 00:55:25,120
I write prose on the keyboard,
but I write poems by hand.

1065
00:55:25,320 --> 00:55:27,960
At least the first draft.
I think there's I, I just like

1066
00:55:27,960 --> 00:55:32,360
that separation in my head.
So I write first drafts usually

1067
00:55:32,360 --> 00:55:36,440
with my writing circle and then
I let him, I let the first draft

1068
00:55:36,440 --> 00:55:42,120
sit for a couple weeks usually.
And then the next draft of it is

1069
00:55:42,120 --> 00:55:44,280
when I type it up out of my
notebook.

1070
00:55:44,360 --> 00:55:47,040
And there's an editing process
that occurs while I'm typing it

1071
00:55:47,040 --> 00:55:49,160
up right?
Where like some, you know,

1072
00:55:49,160 --> 00:55:51,280
something I wrote down won't
make sense or I'll just notice

1073
00:55:51,280 --> 00:55:52,800
like, oh, there should be more
here.

1074
00:55:52,800 --> 00:55:54,960
And then I write 3 or 4 lines
while typing it.

1075
00:55:55,240 --> 00:55:56,960
And that's, that's the second
draft of the poem.

1076
00:55:56,960 --> 00:56:00,000
The third draft of the poem is
normally when I put it in front

1077
00:56:00,000 --> 00:56:01,840
of an audience.
And thankfully audiences have

1078
00:56:01,840 --> 00:56:04,080
been coming back these days.
I've been going to a lot of open

1079
00:56:04,080 --> 00:56:06,360
mics here.
I started running the poetry

1080
00:56:06,360 --> 00:56:10,080
slam over in Raleigh.
So like I have like people that

1081
00:56:10,080 --> 00:56:13,480
I put the poem in front of
because audiences are great

1082
00:56:13,480 --> 00:56:15,720
editors, right?
You, if you're, if you're paying

1083
00:56:15,720 --> 00:56:17,440
attention, you learn how to read
a room.

1084
00:56:17,800 --> 00:56:20,320
You can really see what parts of
your poems.

1085
00:56:20,320 --> 00:56:23,040
Like you can pick out the two or
three parts of your poems that

1086
00:56:23,040 --> 00:56:25,560
people react to.
I like to perform new poems on

1087
00:56:25,560 --> 00:56:28,840
paper so that when I see those
reactions, I can make little.

1088
00:56:28,840 --> 00:56:31,480
I literally have a pen with me
and I'll make little some marks

1089
00:56:31,640 --> 00:56:34,960
either on stage or right when I
get off stage because it's like,

1090
00:56:34,960 --> 00:56:38,160
OK, these are the three parts
that are really working for

1091
00:56:38,160 --> 00:56:40,240
people.
I saw people tune out for 20

1092
00:56:40,240 --> 00:56:42,040
seconds of this section.
I can cut.

1093
00:56:43,040 --> 00:56:46,440
Like, it seemed like the energy
was building in this part and it

1094
00:56:46,440 --> 00:56:48,600
could have gone farther.
So I'm going to add more here,

1095
00:56:48,600 --> 00:56:51,640
you know?
And that's that that's partially

1096
00:56:51,640 --> 00:56:53,920
a function of experience is just
having been in front of

1097
00:56:53,920 --> 00:56:58,040
audiences for the last 1516
years and learning how to read

1098
00:56:58,040 --> 00:57:01,200
their responses, right.
So that's that's the process for

1099
00:57:01,200 --> 00:57:05,360
most poems.
And then if something is going

1100
00:57:05,360 --> 00:57:10,200
to be a piece that I know I want
to perform that's good or that

1101
00:57:10,200 --> 00:57:14,480
like we want to do a specific
like video project with or that

1102
00:57:14,480 --> 00:57:18,120
I know is going to be like, for
lack of their term, like one of

1103
00:57:18,120 --> 00:57:20,880
the singles of the next book
that we really want to work on.

1104
00:57:20,880 --> 00:57:23,760
Then I'll bring it to, I'll
bring it to the people that I

1105
00:57:23,760 --> 00:57:27,480
really trust to edit my wife for
my editor, Michael, Michael

1106
00:57:27,480 --> 00:57:30,800
Melekide, who I've mentioned a
couple times, or, or Tanisha

1107
00:57:30,800 --> 00:57:33,840
from Button Poetry, or like the
folks that like I've worked with

1108
00:57:33,840 --> 00:57:36,080
and that like we really, we have
a rapport, right?

1109
00:57:36,080 --> 00:57:38,680
And so then we'll just go
through probably another 3 or 4

1110
00:57:38,680 --> 00:57:42,080
drafts, just really tweaking
stuff.

1111
00:57:42,120 --> 00:57:45,800
You know, at that point, I've
done most of the work, but this

1112
00:57:45,800 --> 00:57:50,000
is like that's, that's the
really fine edit of, hey, this,

1113
00:57:50,080 --> 00:57:53,600
this, this one line, the wording
isn't, really isn't really

1114
00:57:53,600 --> 00:57:55,560
there.
Can you just, and I'll do 3 or 4

1115
00:57:55,560 --> 00:57:57,680
versions of that.
You know, I, I feel like that

1116
00:57:57,680 --> 00:57:59,920
was pretty detailed, but I feel
like that's, that's, that's

1117
00:57:59,920 --> 00:58:01,360
some, a good amount of
information.

1118
00:58:01,680 --> 00:58:05,240
Well, it, it's, I mean, to me
that was very much like one of

1119
00:58:05,240 --> 00:58:08,280
the more, yeah, one of the more
in depth and professional

1120
00:58:09,040 --> 00:58:11,360
processes I've heard.
Obviously you are so experienced

1121
00:58:11,360 --> 00:58:15,080
at this stage.
It, it, it sounds very communal,

1122
00:58:15,160 --> 00:58:17,480
Neil.
You know, the fact that you're

1123
00:58:17,640 --> 00:58:20,280
especially when you first take
it to the stage and like you

1124
00:58:20,280 --> 00:58:23,880
said, you're you're reading the
room, you're honing in on, on,

1125
00:58:24,280 --> 00:58:28,680
on the highs and lows and and
that data, if you like, is is,

1126
00:58:28,920 --> 00:58:31,880
you know, invaluable to us as
slam poets.

1127
00:58:32,160 --> 00:58:33,560
Yeah, Totally.
Yeah.

1128
00:58:33,560 --> 00:58:35,200
Absolutely worth taking on
board.

1129
00:58:35,280 --> 00:58:36,480
Absolutely worth taking on
board.

1130
00:58:36,720 --> 00:58:40,880
It's it also I, I like, so
there's one open mic that

1131
00:58:40,880 --> 00:58:43,040
happens every two weeks.
It's like really close to our

1132
00:58:43,040 --> 00:58:45,320
house.
There's a few folks that show up

1133
00:58:45,320 --> 00:58:47,080
to it that have really
expressive faces.

1134
00:58:47,080 --> 00:58:50,120
And so they don't know that
they're big editors of my poems,

1135
00:58:50,120 --> 00:58:52,840
but like, I'll, I'll bring new
poems to that open mic and I'll,

1136
00:58:52,920 --> 00:58:57,000
I'll watch like specifically, I
watch like Evelyn and, and Joe

1137
00:58:57,000 --> 00:59:00,240
like a lot and just be like, OK,
what, what are Evelyn and Joe

1138
00:59:00,240 --> 00:59:05,000
like?
And, and like, what are they,

1139
00:59:05,080 --> 00:59:06,680
what are they not like?
What are they, what are they

1140
00:59:06,680 --> 00:59:10,360
Look in a way.
So anyway, yeah, it's, I don't

1141
00:59:10,360 --> 00:59:13,000
know, maybe some people produce
things in a vacuum, but I've

1142
00:59:13,000 --> 00:59:16,520
always, I've always needed other
folks to, to really, to really

1143
00:59:16,680 --> 00:59:20,760
Polish my work especially.
Yeah, so it sounds like you've

1144
00:59:20,760 --> 00:59:23,720
got, you've picked out a few
people to be your tuning forks,

1145
00:59:23,920 --> 00:59:27,880
so to speak for sure.
And I'm sure that if, you know,

1146
00:59:27,880 --> 00:59:33,080
if an idea wasn't 100% working
or, or needed, needed some

1147
00:59:33,080 --> 00:59:35,160
perspective or needed a little
push, like there was something

1148
00:59:35,160 --> 00:59:37,840
there, but it needed a little
push, then that again, that

1149
00:59:37,840 --> 00:59:41,360
feedback is invaluable of, of
getting over that hump and, and

1150
00:59:41,360 --> 00:59:43,440
you know, maybe producing
something that you wouldn't have

1151
00:59:43,440 --> 00:59:46,400
otherwise without a little bit
of encouragement or, you know, a

1152
00:59:46,400 --> 00:59:49,640
word here or there.
Yeah, 100%.

1153
00:59:49,640 --> 00:59:53,440
And and also, I think the other
major tool that's been helpful

1154
00:59:53,440 --> 00:59:59,040
for me is knowing when a poem
might never work and having the

1155
00:59:59,600 --> 01:00:02,800
having the, the humility.
And the understanding of myself

1156
01:00:02,800 --> 01:00:06,000
that like, I might really like
want this concept to work, but

1157
01:00:06,360 --> 01:00:08,200
people are getting it and
they're, and they're maybe

1158
01:00:08,200 --> 01:00:10,160
they're not gonna.
So we could just walk away and,

1159
01:00:10,160 --> 01:00:11,920
and trust that like there will
be other poems.

1160
01:00:11,920 --> 01:00:14,200
So like there's other stuff I
could work on and that like if

1161
01:00:14,200 --> 01:00:17,520
this and then like this one
concept, it's, you know, it's

1162
01:00:17,520 --> 01:00:19,760
just not it.
I just don't know how to

1163
01:00:19,760 --> 01:00:21,520
accurately express myself right
now.

1164
01:00:21,520 --> 01:00:23,960
So in a few years I'm going to
come back to this and it's going

1165
01:00:23,960 --> 01:00:25,240
to be a hip.
But right now I don't.

1166
01:00:25,520 --> 01:00:27,760
I don't got it in my brain yet.
Yeah, it's not the end of the

1167
01:00:27,760 --> 01:00:30,320
world.
And often ideas, you know, if if

1168
01:00:30,320 --> 01:00:33,360
they have to kind of disperse,
like they'll they'll come back

1169
01:00:33,360 --> 01:00:36,040
in some other form and and maybe
a little bit better then yeah.

1170
01:00:36,840 --> 01:00:38,480
Yeah, dude.
Great.

1171
01:00:38,480 --> 01:00:42,320
Now thanks for your reflections.
Now in your in your writer's

1172
01:00:42,320 --> 01:00:46,080
bio, it says that you actually
have a preferred stage entrance

1173
01:00:46,080 --> 01:00:51,240
music, which it says is is Bruce
Springsteen's fantastic hit Born

1174
01:00:51,240 --> 01:00:53,600
to Run.
Do you have a particular like

1175
01:00:53,600 --> 01:00:56,240
affinity with this song or is it
more of a meme?

1176
01:00:56,240 --> 01:00:58,840
Because I know that you like to
walk up very slowly while the

1177
01:00:58,840 --> 01:01:03,880
The thing is playing and, and
I'm just curious like who who

1178
01:01:03,880 --> 01:01:06,440
are the artists, you know, the
musicians, the poets or

1179
01:01:06,440 --> 01:01:09,600
otherwise who you feel have
influenced you the most and kind

1180
01:01:09,600 --> 01:01:12,760
of formed part of the soup that
you're at work comes from.

1181
01:01:13,640 --> 01:01:15,520
For sure.
I mean, the, the Springsteen

1182
01:01:15,520 --> 01:01:20,000
joke in my bio is, is kind of a
joke, but I do Born to run is

1183
01:01:20,000 --> 01:01:24,040
one of my walk up songs, right?
Like I, I have like I have a

1184
01:01:24,040 --> 01:01:28,120
rotation of like 5 or 6 songs
that like if, if I get to choose

1185
01:01:28,200 --> 01:01:31,520
what's playing on the stereo as
I walk up, it's Springsteen's

1186
01:01:31,760 --> 01:01:35,160
Born to run is the big one.
There's a misfit song, We are

1187
01:01:35,160 --> 01:01:39,360
138 that I like a lot that I'll
I'll roll up to sometimes.

1188
01:01:40,040 --> 01:01:42,760
But honestly, my favorite thing
to do is a walk up song.

1189
01:01:42,760 --> 01:01:44,080
I'm getting to the other thing
in a second.

1190
01:01:44,480 --> 01:01:46,720
But my favorite thing, my
favorite thing to do is a walk

1191
01:01:46,720 --> 01:01:50,240
up song is just like pick a
musician from the place I'm

1192
01:01:50,240 --> 01:01:55,240
doing a show in and like, like
for instance, in Chicago,

1193
01:01:55,720 --> 01:01:58,840
there's this, there's there's
this song, there's that.

1194
01:01:59,000 --> 01:02:00,960
It's one of my favorite songs
ever and nobody's ever heard of

1195
01:02:00,960 --> 01:02:02,840
it.
I'm so I'm so special and

1196
01:02:02,840 --> 01:02:04,480
unique.
It's called, it's called

1197
01:02:04,480 --> 01:02:10,120
Lakeshore Drive and it's by this
jazz trio called Aliota James,

1198
01:02:10,320 --> 01:02:15,440
Aliota Haynes Jeremiah.
And it's just about this road,

1199
01:02:15,520 --> 01:02:18,040
Lakeshore Drive that everybody
in Chicago drives, right?

1200
01:02:18,040 --> 01:02:20,840
It's this like it's this locally
famous little Rd.

1201
01:02:20,840 --> 01:02:23,920
And Lakeshore Drive is like this
perfect nostalgic thing.

1202
01:02:23,920 --> 01:02:26,640
When you drive on Lakeshore, it
feels, it just feels it.

1203
01:02:26,720 --> 01:02:29,480
You feel, you feel good, right?
And so every time I do a

1204
01:02:29,480 --> 01:02:32,400
Chicago, I'll bust out Lake
Shore Drive and everybody's

1205
01:02:32,400 --> 01:02:33,720
like, how do you know about
that, right.

1206
01:02:33,720 --> 01:02:35,120
And so then it's a conversation
starter.

1207
01:02:35,120 --> 01:02:38,840
It gets people like it's done so
much work for me as an artist.

1208
01:02:38,840 --> 01:02:43,000
Because like, I feel like when,
when you get on stage, like any,

1209
01:02:43,000 --> 01:02:45,480
any poet, you got to convince
the audience that what you have

1210
01:02:45,480 --> 01:02:47,120
to say is going to be worth
their time and that you're

1211
01:02:47,120 --> 01:02:49,200
taking care of them, that you've
thought of them, right?

1212
01:02:49,440 --> 01:02:52,880
And so if I can do that before I
even hit the stage with a song

1213
01:02:52,880 --> 01:02:57,520
selection, then like then I've
I've already made my job easier

1214
01:02:57,520 --> 01:02:59,160
for myself.
You're speaking their language,

1215
01:02:59,160 --> 01:03:02,240
if you like, yeah. 100% it
literally really, maybe some

1216
01:03:02,240 --> 01:03:06,000
friends, you know, like I did a
show in Lansing, MI and picked,

1217
01:03:06,320 --> 01:03:11,600
there's a really obscure like
punk band called Cheap Girls

1218
01:03:11,880 --> 01:03:14,640
from Lansing, MI and I picked
their song Gone All Summer,

1219
01:03:14,640 --> 01:03:16,920
right?
And like when I got off stage,

1220
01:03:16,920 --> 01:03:19,800
the venue manager was like, how
do you know about the band I

1221
01:03:19,800 --> 01:03:23,200
used to be in?
And I was like, yeah, I was

1222
01:03:23,200 --> 01:03:25,240
like, I love him, dude.
And then turns out like he's the

1223
01:03:25,240 --> 01:03:28,520
tour manager for a band called
The Menzingers that I love.

1224
01:03:28,520 --> 01:03:31,720
And they were like coming
through here on tour with a band

1225
01:03:31,720 --> 01:03:33,080
called Lucero that I love.
And.

1226
01:03:33,320 --> 01:03:35,240
And, you know, they're playing
like 15 minutes from my house

1227
01:03:35,240 --> 01:03:37,640
and Scott put me on the list and
now Scott's my dude, right?

1228
01:03:37,640 --> 01:03:39,960
Anyway, yeah.
Speaking their language.

1229
01:03:39,960 --> 01:03:42,560
So folks have been really
influential on me.

1230
01:03:43,400 --> 01:03:46,000
Springsteen, definitely.
Because, I mean, I look like

1231
01:03:46,000 --> 01:03:47,520
this.
So obviously I like Springsteen.

1232
01:03:48,160 --> 01:03:52,080
But specifically, the thing that
has been really that really

1233
01:03:52,080 --> 01:03:56,800
works for me and that I learned
from Springsteen is a thing that

1234
01:03:56,800 --> 01:03:59,040
then influenced other artists I
like a lot.

1235
01:03:59,040 --> 01:04:00,800
Like another one of my favorite
bands is a band called The

1236
01:04:00,800 --> 01:04:03,040
Gaslight Anthem.
And they both do this thing

1237
01:04:03,040 --> 01:04:09,840
where they'll they'll reuse
names or motifs or lines from

1238
01:04:09,960 --> 01:04:14,000
from songs.
And in reusing them as their

1239
01:04:14,000 --> 01:04:17,640
career progresses and as they
presumably mature as people, you

1240
01:04:17,640 --> 01:04:20,680
get more of a back story if
you're paying attention, right?

1241
01:04:20,680 --> 01:04:22,680
It's almost like an Easter egg
for the listener where you're

1242
01:04:22,680 --> 01:04:24,120
like.
A bit of law.

1243
01:04:24,880 --> 01:04:28,840
Yeah, exactly.
And so it made me that specific

1244
01:04:28,840 --> 01:04:34,400
move made me think of my career
or like my work as not just like

1245
01:04:34,400 --> 01:04:36,920
this is a poem and this is a
poem and this is a book.

1246
01:04:36,920 --> 01:04:42,360
It's like it's all, it made me
think of my work as like all 11

1247
01:04:42,360 --> 01:04:45,760
body of work that is all
speaking with each other because

1248
01:04:45,760 --> 01:04:48,440
it was gonna whether or not I
decided it would.

1249
01:04:48,440 --> 01:04:51,360
So I might as well think about
that as an intentional tool,

1250
01:04:51,360 --> 01:04:53,520
right.
That's been a big one.

1251
01:04:54,240 --> 01:04:56,400
I mean, one of my other favorite
musicians, his name is John

1252
01:04:56,400 --> 01:04:59,120
Darnielle, his band called the
Mountain Goats, one of my

1253
01:04:59,120 --> 01:05:03,720
favorite bands, very writerly,
very OK.

1254
01:05:03,720 --> 01:05:05,400
There's three things that I've
learned a bunch from John

1255
01:05:05,400 --> 01:05:08,560
Darnielle 1.
Is he just.

1256
01:05:08,560 --> 01:05:10,160
He just writes.
He just puts out stuff.

1257
01:05:10,520 --> 01:05:14,120
And some of the records, every
song might not be perfect, but

1258
01:05:14,120 --> 01:05:18,080
some of the songs are hits and
even the imperfect songs still

1259
01:05:18,280 --> 01:05:21,640
have things in them that you can
dig into if you want, right?

1260
01:05:21,640 --> 01:05:25,560
So that's one thing.
Another thing is he's not afraid

1261
01:05:25,560 --> 01:05:31,200
to be weird and just like write
like one of my favorite songs by

1262
01:05:32,000 --> 01:05:37,920
JD is called Sax romer #1 Sax
Romer was like a pulp like crime

1263
01:05:37,920 --> 01:05:43,040
novelist from like the 20s who
wrote like just by all reports,

1264
01:05:43,040 --> 01:05:46,840
like God awful crime novels.
But like it was, I'm sure it was

1265
01:05:46,840 --> 01:05:49,080
just some stuff.
It was like there were a couple

1266
01:05:49,080 --> 01:05:52,640
Sax Romer novels that happened
to be on like on a bookshelf in

1267
01:05:52,640 --> 01:05:54,600
his childhood home.
And he was like, I remember

1268
01:05:54,600 --> 01:05:56,120
that.
Let me dig into sax Romer.

1269
01:05:56,240 --> 01:05:58,320
And then he learned some stuff
and wrote a song about it, you

1270
01:05:58,320 --> 01:06:02,160
know, so like it, like he's
really made me feel not afraid

1271
01:06:02,160 --> 01:06:05,280
to just take some swings and see
what happens, you know?

1272
01:06:06,320 --> 01:06:08,560
And like, some of them aren't
going to work and some of them

1273
01:06:08,560 --> 01:06:10,440
are going to get cut or they're
not going to make the record.

1274
01:06:10,440 --> 01:06:13,360
But like some some of the some
of the stuff you end up

1275
01:06:13,360 --> 01:06:16,320
producing when you just write
about whatever your weird

1276
01:06:16,320 --> 01:06:19,440
obsession is right now, like
that's it ends up being hits,

1277
01:06:19,440 --> 01:06:20,960
man.
John O'Neill said in an

1278
01:06:20,960 --> 01:06:25,040
interview once that somebody
asked him they were like, hey,

1279
01:06:25,040 --> 01:06:28,560
it seems like you don't listen
to music in the genre that you

1280
01:06:28,560 --> 01:06:31,480
write in, right?
Like that, that feel 'cause he

1281
01:06:31,480 --> 01:06:33,480
writes very like
singer-songwriter Y stuff.

1282
01:06:33,480 --> 01:06:38,360
It's like it's full band, very
lyrical lot like very like

1283
01:06:38,440 --> 01:06:40,000
acoustic guitar driven type of
thing.

1284
01:06:40,280 --> 01:06:44,160
But like most of what he listens
to is either like opera or

1285
01:06:44,160 --> 01:06:49,520
classical music or like really
big atmospheric metal bands,

1286
01:06:49,520 --> 01:06:50,520
right?
And they were like, so how the

1287
01:06:50,520 --> 01:06:52,040
hell?
And, and he was, and he was

1288
01:06:52,040 --> 01:06:56,080
like, I don't know, it's just
his, his response was so

1289
01:06:56,080 --> 01:06:58,560
nonchalant where he was just
like, I don't feel any pressure

1290
01:06:59,120 --> 01:07:01,720
to, to, to listen to things in
my genre because I don't, I

1291
01:07:01,720 --> 01:07:03,360
don't want to.
It's just not what I want to

1292
01:07:03,360 --> 01:07:05,600
listen to.
And it like, that made me feel

1293
01:07:05,600 --> 01:07:08,720
really freeing that like, no, I
don't like, I like reading

1294
01:07:08,720 --> 01:07:12,160
poetry and I read a bunch of it,
but like, I, but it made, it

1295
01:07:12,160 --> 01:07:17,120
made me feel really free to like
pay attention to all kinds of

1296
01:07:17,120 --> 01:07:21,360
genres of art and like, take
inspiration and moves from, from

1297
01:07:21,360 --> 01:07:23,640
everything and not just like
other poems, you know?

1298
01:07:23,640 --> 01:07:27,240
And, and, and that not only is
that a, is that OK to do that

1299
01:07:27,240 --> 01:07:31,880
you actually learn so much more
by watching movies or even, or

1300
01:07:31,880 --> 01:07:35,760
even like reading poems in
genres and styles that you

1301
01:07:35,760 --> 01:07:38,640
actively dislike and like trying
to pull some stuff.

1302
01:07:38,640 --> 01:07:42,760
Like, I don't, I'm really not
into generally, you know, like

1303
01:07:42,760 --> 01:07:45,080
really abstract poems.
I need a little bit of narrative

1304
01:07:45,080 --> 01:07:47,520
to hang on to because I got to
know what the hell we're talking

1305
01:07:47,520 --> 01:07:49,360
about and why you wanted to
write this poem, right?

1306
01:07:49,640 --> 01:07:52,240
But I've been trying to read
poems that are entirely

1307
01:07:52,240 --> 01:07:55,480
abstraction and be like, why do
other people like this?

1308
01:07:55,480 --> 01:07:58,080
What can I get out of this that
they're enjoying?

1309
01:07:58,320 --> 01:08:00,280
I've said a bunch.
Of words it keeps, It keeps you

1310
01:08:00,480 --> 01:08:02,360
sharp.
I suppose you know experiments

1311
01:08:02,360 --> 01:08:05,880
with different inputs, yeah?
Well, and like it just, I don't

1312
01:08:05,880 --> 01:08:11,680
know, I feel like it helps me
again, take chances and, and

1313
01:08:12,160 --> 01:08:15,560
make and, and make some choices
that I might not have otherwise

1314
01:08:15,560 --> 01:08:21,000
made because I saw Dario Argento
do this weird thing in Suspiria

1315
01:08:21,000 --> 01:08:22,840
and I'm like, how do I replicate
this in a poem?

1316
01:08:22,880 --> 01:08:26,720
And that poem sucked and didn't
work out, but I'm glad I tried

1317
01:08:26,720 --> 01:08:31,279
it, you know?
And on the note of, you know,

1318
01:08:31,439 --> 01:08:34,800
people who've I guess inspired
you, people who, you know, you,

1319
01:08:34,800 --> 01:08:37,200
you wouldn't be able to do what
you're doing now without them, I

1320
01:08:37,200 --> 01:08:40,479
suppose you've told me that you
actually have a little podcast

1321
01:08:40,479 --> 01:08:43,600
project that you're working on
around these kind of things.

1322
01:08:43,600 --> 01:08:46,840
Can you tell us about that?
Yeah, so, so my publisher,

1323
01:08:46,840 --> 01:08:50,800
Button Poetry and I were working
on a, an interview series.

1324
01:08:51,319 --> 01:08:53,200
I don't, I don't know that we're
calling it a podcast yet.

1325
01:08:53,399 --> 01:08:54,600
I don't know what the hell it is
yet.

1326
01:08:54,640 --> 01:08:58,319
We're calling the interview
series so far, but we're calling

1327
01:08:58,319 --> 01:08:59,319
it.
Couldn't have done it without

1328
01:08:59,319 --> 01:09:01,359
you.
And I interview a bunch of

1329
01:09:01,359 --> 01:09:05,359
people that have influenced me
in, in any way, right, That have

1330
01:09:05,359 --> 01:09:08,680
influenced my, my professional
career, whether it's, you know,

1331
01:09:08,680 --> 01:09:10,840
obviously I'm going to be
talking to a lot of poets, but

1332
01:09:11,040 --> 01:09:14,760
I've interviewed some musicians
and comedians.

1333
01:09:15,000 --> 01:09:21,640
I pulled up, I sent a sent an
e-mail to my geography professor

1334
01:09:21,640 --> 01:09:24,399
from college who was very
surprised to be hearing from me.

1335
01:09:24,399 --> 01:09:27,600
But I was like, Hey, I took AI,
took a geography information

1336
01:09:27,600 --> 01:09:30,960
system class from, you know, a
GIS class from you like, and it

1337
01:09:30,960 --> 01:09:34,800
really made me think about how
to think spatially about any

1338
01:09:34,800 --> 01:09:37,000
kind of information.
And, and she was like kind of

1339
01:09:37,000 --> 01:09:38,319
shocked that I want to talk to
her.

1340
01:09:38,319 --> 01:09:41,880
But anyway, so like, you know, I
interviewed some of my old

1341
01:09:41,880 --> 01:09:43,560
professors.
I interviewed Nick Flynn, one of

1342
01:09:43,560 --> 01:09:45,880
my favorite poets.
I interviewed Liz Stokes from

1343
01:09:46,000 --> 01:09:48,680
lead singer of the Beths.
I interviewed some of my

1344
01:09:48,680 --> 01:09:52,520
friends, the ballroom thieves
and bad, bad hats, some bands

1345
01:09:52,520 --> 01:09:55,080
from from America.
I, I've been, I've been just

1346
01:09:55,080 --> 01:09:58,040
trying to, just trying to
interview anybody that's, that's

1347
01:09:58,040 --> 01:09:59,880
been influential on me.
And then I take like a little

1348
01:09:59,880 --> 01:10:01,880
moment where I'm like a little
corny and I'm like, hey, also

1349
01:10:01,880 --> 01:10:04,760
thank you.
Like I wrote, if I can get super

1350
01:10:04,760 --> 01:10:07,840
granular, like I wrote this poem
because of you or like with my

1351
01:10:07,840 --> 01:10:09,720
friends, the ballroom thieves.
I'm like, hey, early on in my

1352
01:10:09,720 --> 01:10:14,040
career, my train from Boston got
messed up and I was really cold

1353
01:10:14,040 --> 01:10:16,240
that night and y'all just let me
hang out in your house even

1354
01:10:16,240 --> 01:10:18,480
though you didn't have to.
So like, thanks for doing that.

1355
01:10:18,480 --> 01:10:21,480
I would have died in Boston.
You know, So it's just, it's,

1356
01:10:21,480 --> 01:10:25,040
it's half professional interview
and half just like maybe like,

1357
01:10:25,040 --> 01:10:26,400
thanks for, thanks for helping
me.

1358
01:10:26,400 --> 01:10:29,840
I love you.
Yeah, what a great idea.

1359
01:10:29,920 --> 01:10:35,280
It that almost it it it's almost
a little bit similar to the idea

1360
01:10:35,280 --> 01:10:38,640
that was kind of a, you know,
progenitor, I suppose, to what

1361
01:10:38,640 --> 01:10:42,160
this podcast became where at one
point I was thinking, do I want

1362
01:10:42,160 --> 01:10:45,400
to start a podcast where I'm
literally just like talking to

1363
01:10:45,400 --> 01:10:47,840
my friends and introducing them
to the world because I love them

1364
01:10:47,840 --> 01:10:50,920
and I think they're cool.
So yeah.

1365
01:10:50,960 --> 01:10:52,920
Oh, looking forward to to
hearing more about it.

1366
01:10:53,280 --> 01:10:55,600
You can watch.
My, my social media for it or

1367
01:10:55,600 --> 01:10:57,680
it'll, it'll be on my website,
neilhillborn.com.

1368
01:10:57,680 --> 01:11:00,760
And honestly, if anything, watch
buttons social media.

1369
01:11:00,760 --> 01:11:04,480
They're way better about it than
I am because Instagram makes me

1370
01:11:04,480 --> 01:11:06,560
sad these days.
And I'm just not trying to do

1371
01:11:06,560 --> 01:11:08,600
stuff that makes me sad as much,
you know?

1372
01:11:09,280 --> 01:11:12,040
Yeah, it's it's a slug.
I don't feel like I'm cut out

1373
01:11:12,040 --> 01:11:12,520
for it.
I don't know.

1374
01:11:12,520 --> 01:11:14,840
I'll, I'll find someone else who
can do it for me as soon as I

1375
01:11:14,840 --> 01:11:15,440
can.
I think.

1376
01:11:16,080 --> 01:11:18,480
Do you have any other thoughts?
I, I mean, Neil, you know, it's,

1377
01:11:18,480 --> 01:11:21,600
it's obvious that you, you know,
you, you've reached a, a level

1378
01:11:21,600 --> 01:11:25,720
of, I guess exposure and
experience that, that very few,

1379
01:11:25,720 --> 01:11:29,800
you know, slam poets reach.
And I'm just wondering that that

1380
01:11:29,800 --> 01:11:34,520
platform that you have that
popularity you have, do you feel

1381
01:11:34,520 --> 01:11:38,400
like a sense of, I guess
responsibility to kind of wear

1382
01:11:38,400 --> 01:11:40,320
that well and and make the most
of it?

1383
01:11:41,120 --> 01:11:46,960
Oh, 1000% And I've been, I, I, I
feel like especially now in the,

1384
01:11:47,040 --> 01:11:51,960
the place I'm at in my career, I
really want to teach other

1385
01:11:51,960 --> 01:11:54,840
people the stuff that I've
learned.

1386
01:11:54,840 --> 01:11:56,720
You know, I've just, I've just
been I, I don't want to use the

1387
01:11:56,720 --> 01:12:00,280
word mentor because I don't feel
totally capable of claiming that

1388
01:12:00,280 --> 01:12:05,400
yet, but I, I definitely, I
don't know, I'm in a place where

1389
01:12:05,400 --> 01:12:08,880
not only like I have, I learned
a bunch of stuff in in the

1390
01:12:08,880 --> 01:12:11,560
poacher world, but like, but I
feel I feel pretty stable.

1391
01:12:11,560 --> 01:12:16,240
Both, not both like financially,
mentally, emotionally like, and

1392
01:12:16,240 --> 01:12:19,720
I feel as though I'm I can give
to some other folks.

1393
01:12:20,880 --> 01:12:24,040
Some examples are like at this,
the poacher tournament.

1394
01:12:24,040 --> 01:12:25,680
I just went to the Midwest
poetry mash up.

1395
01:12:25,680 --> 01:12:31,360
There were two different teams
that like came from my writing

1396
01:12:31,360 --> 01:12:33,120
circle that I do every every
week, right?

1397
01:12:33,120 --> 01:12:36,320
It's like when when this
tournament started three years

1398
01:12:36,320 --> 01:12:42,120
ago, I just kind of casually
said to said to the group like,

1399
01:12:42,320 --> 01:12:44,560
hey, this thing's happening in
Minneapolis.

1400
01:12:44,560 --> 01:12:46,920
If you all want to put together
A-Team and go, I'll kick in the

1401
01:12:46,920 --> 01:12:48,640
registration.
I'll help you out at some poems,

1402
01:12:48,640 --> 01:12:50,680
right?
Thinking that like people from

1403
01:12:50,680 --> 01:12:54,200
Minneapolis and Wisconsin and
Chicago would go right.

1404
01:12:54,200 --> 01:12:58,200
But but like, I of course forget
that poets will take any excuse

1405
01:12:58,440 --> 01:13:01,680
to hang out with each other.
And so, so, so the team was

1406
01:13:01,680 --> 01:13:05,200
composed of two Canadians, one
person from the UK and one

1407
01:13:05,200 --> 01:13:08,840
person from Portland, OR right.
But since then, like there's,

1408
01:13:08,880 --> 01:13:10,200
you know, a team has gone every
year.

1409
01:13:10,200 --> 01:13:13,640
This team, two teams went and
I've tried to like help edit

1410
01:13:13,640 --> 01:13:16,120
their poems and give them
performance notes and like do

1411
01:13:16,200 --> 01:13:19,640
coaching stuff and just like
bring them into the world as

1412
01:13:19,640 --> 01:13:23,720
much as possible because like it
with poetry tournaments coming

1413
01:13:23,720 --> 01:13:26,400
back, like button is filming at
these poetry tournaments and

1414
01:13:26,440 --> 01:13:29,520
like, at least that's, that's
how I, you know, that's how I

1415
01:13:29,520 --> 01:13:32,800
got a career is by just doing
poems at these tournaments and

1416
01:13:32,800 --> 01:13:34,640
getting getting exposure that
way.

1417
01:13:34,640 --> 01:13:36,720
And so I'm like, well, there's
poets that I know that I really

1418
01:13:36,720 --> 01:13:40,920
like whose work people people
like need to see and who's

1419
01:13:40,920 --> 01:13:42,440
working will be helpful out in
the world.

1420
01:13:42,440 --> 01:13:45,600
So like a thing I can do to help
that get out of the world is

1421
01:13:45,960 --> 01:13:48,000
edit it and help them figure out
how to perform it.

1422
01:13:48,880 --> 01:13:51,720
I would say like I, I do feel a
certain sense of responsibility

1423
01:13:51,720 --> 01:13:55,480
to like to give other folks a
leg up in, in the world.

1424
01:13:55,480 --> 01:13:58,720
Not that I can like, you know,
make choices or make things go

1425
01:13:58,720 --> 01:14:03,080
viral, but but I can at least
like help give, show people the

1426
01:14:03,080 --> 01:14:06,880
path that I took to get to a
point where a poem could

1427
01:14:06,880 --> 01:14:08,840
potentially go viral and launch
a career.

1428
01:14:09,520 --> 01:14:12,360
Yeah, people might describe it
as like, you know, sharing your

1429
01:14:12,360 --> 01:14:14,760
power or sharing your space or
whatever that, yeah, it's the

1430
01:14:14,760 --> 01:14:16,800
next generation, yeah.
Yeah.

1431
01:14:16,800 --> 01:14:20,240
And I think that like, you know,
we just talked about social

1432
01:14:20,240 --> 01:14:22,240
media and like there, you know,
there's a certain amount that

1433
01:14:22,240 --> 01:14:23,960
sharing things on social media
can do.

1434
01:14:24,800 --> 01:14:28,560
But like, ultimately, I don't
know, just as, as the way that I

1435
01:14:28,560 --> 01:14:32,520
have used social media in the
past, Like I'm not, I, I am not

1436
01:14:33,840 --> 01:14:36,480
reliably going to connect with
every single thing that comes

1437
01:14:36,480 --> 01:14:39,120
across my feeds.
Like, you know, if I, if I get,

1438
01:14:39,120 --> 01:14:41,760
if I like share somebody's poem
on Instagram, that helps a

1439
01:14:41,760 --> 01:14:43,960
little bit.
But I think what really helped

1440
01:14:43,960 --> 01:14:47,480
is like giving people, giving
people the same information

1441
01:14:47,800 --> 01:14:50,560
education that I got that helps
me get to this point.

1442
01:14:52,080 --> 01:14:53,720
Yeah, now, well said.
Well said.

1443
01:14:54,440 --> 01:14:58,160
So as we as we kind of get to
the pointy end of our time

1444
01:14:58,160 --> 01:15:02,040
together today, Neil, what's
Yeah, what's next for you?

1445
01:15:02,040 --> 01:15:05,840
So you know what, what projects
are you kind of working on in

1446
01:15:05,840 --> 01:15:09,880
this in this season?
Obviously we're we're you know,

1447
01:15:10,000 --> 01:15:12,960
the new book about time has been
out for a while.

1448
01:15:13,200 --> 01:15:15,120
What are you working on?
You've mentioned the podcast,

1449
01:15:15,560 --> 01:15:19,920
you've mentioned running slams
locally, like where, where

1450
01:15:19,920 --> 01:15:21,920
you're kind of based now.
Was there anything else?

1451
01:15:22,720 --> 01:15:24,960
Yeah, I mean, I'm working on the
next book.

1452
01:15:25,440 --> 01:15:29,680
What's what's what was really
cool about this process of

1453
01:15:30,080 --> 01:15:33,800
writing About Time is that like
with with the process I've

1454
01:15:33,800 --> 01:15:36,680
described to you, I've been the
most prolific I've ever been in

1455
01:15:36,680 --> 01:15:39,920
my career.
And so when I turned in the main

1456
01:15:39,920 --> 01:15:43,880
script of About Time, it was
like 200 something pages, right?

1457
01:15:44,560 --> 01:15:47,480
Because because button asked for
it, they were like, give us as

1458
01:15:47,480 --> 01:15:49,120
much as you want and we'll cut
it down.

1459
01:15:49,120 --> 01:15:53,120
And I was like, OK, great.
Here's everything I got because

1460
01:15:53,120 --> 01:15:55,280
I've just been, I've been
writing so much, right?

1461
01:15:55,280 --> 01:15:58,840
So a bunch of the bunch of the
poems that didn't make this

1462
01:15:58,840 --> 01:16:02,360
manuscript, I've been editing
and revising to go in the next

1463
01:16:02,360 --> 01:16:04,320
one.
We're looking at 2026 to

1464
01:16:04,320 --> 01:16:05,920
release, to release the next
book.

1465
01:16:05,920 --> 01:16:10,080
And then in, in theory, if I can
keep up this pace, which I feel

1466
01:16:10,080 --> 01:16:13,200
pretty good about, like we'll be
just putting out a book every

1467
01:16:13,200 --> 01:16:17,440
year and a half to two years.
So that's, that's, that's a big

1468
01:16:17,440 --> 01:16:21,160
thing That's very important.
Yeah, it's, it's, I mean, you

1469
01:16:21,160 --> 01:16:23,200
know, especially given my
previous pace, God damn.

1470
01:16:23,200 --> 01:16:26,720
But I got, I got my meds working
and I'm happy and stable and,

1471
01:16:27,480 --> 01:16:30,520
and I got a writing group.
I can't stress the, the

1472
01:16:30,520 --> 01:16:32,680
importance of a writing group
enough if even.

1473
01:16:32,760 --> 01:16:36,080
And it doesn't have to be a
formalized thing like like I've

1474
01:16:36,080 --> 01:16:38,360
been doing, just like you and
four of your friends.

1475
01:16:38,360 --> 01:16:41,400
You just hang out every Tuesday
and show each other your poems,

1476
01:16:41,400 --> 01:16:44,880
you know?
But there's something about that

1477
01:16:44,880 --> 01:16:47,560
community of people that really
motivates everybody to to keep

1478
01:16:47,560 --> 01:16:50,040
producing stuff.
So yeah, next book, I don't know

1479
01:16:50,040 --> 01:16:53,080
what the title is yet, but I
suck at titling my own stuff.

1480
01:16:53,080 --> 01:16:54,920
I usually try to trick my
friends into doing it.

1481
01:16:55,160 --> 01:16:57,480
Is it going to be like that was
quick or something like that?

1482
01:17:00,840 --> 01:17:05,600
Short time yeah I don't know
dude it's it's gonna that one

1483
01:17:05,680 --> 01:17:09,160
that title came out of nowhere
normally like normally I title a

1484
01:17:09,160 --> 01:17:12,440
book after a poem that's in it
or like I pull a line from out

1485
01:17:12,440 --> 01:17:17,280
of a book and that one I that
one just like I just sent button

1486
01:17:17,920 --> 01:17:20,960
30 different.
I just brainstormed 30 different

1487
01:17:20,960 --> 01:17:23,000
titles and Tanisha was like, I
like about time.

1488
01:17:23,000 --> 01:17:26,960
I'm like me too, let's go.
But so yeah, working on the next

1489
01:17:26,960 --> 01:17:29,880
book.
I'm going to be developing the

1490
01:17:29,960 --> 01:17:32,720
the Raleigh poetry slam.
We've done, we've done three of

1491
01:17:32,720 --> 01:17:35,360
them so far.
We started in February and we're

1492
01:17:35,360 --> 01:17:39,600
just doing a monthly, a monthly
slam at at a spot called

1493
01:17:39,600 --> 01:17:42,840
Blackbird Books and Coffee in
Raleigh, NC Shout out Blackbird,

1494
01:17:42,840 --> 01:17:46,720
their cool indie bookstore run
by some awesome folks.

1495
01:17:47,520 --> 01:17:49,440
And it's been, it's been going
great so far.

1496
01:17:49,440 --> 01:17:52,600
I thought nobody would come, but
we've sold out every single

1497
01:17:52,640 --> 01:17:56,880
event so far.
And the poets have been the

1498
01:17:56,880 --> 01:17:58,040
poets have been really
excellent.

1499
01:17:58,040 --> 01:18:01,120
The crowds have been super hype.
I think that like the spoken

1500
01:18:01,120 --> 01:18:05,960
word seen here is already
already really cool And and

1501
01:18:05,960 --> 01:18:09,960
there wasn't really a a frequent
like monthly poetry slam, the

1502
01:18:09,960 --> 01:18:13,200
kind of like I really came up in
in the Twin Cities.

1503
01:18:13,200 --> 01:18:15,360
And so I wanted to, again,
wanted to give that to other

1504
01:18:15,360 --> 01:18:18,120
folks because that's what,
that's what helps me, you know.

1505
01:18:18,600 --> 01:18:22,000
And so I'm really excited to, to
develop that and, and help

1506
01:18:22,000 --> 01:18:25,400
develop the, the scene here
with, with an eye toward like

1507
01:18:26,000 --> 01:18:28,480
there's, there's regional poetry
tournaments popping up are like

1508
01:18:28,480 --> 01:18:32,840
little poetry festivals.
And I've got got a location in a

1509
01:18:32,840 --> 01:18:35,440
small town, it's kind of near
here that's like a old biodiesel

1510
01:18:35,440 --> 01:18:38,120
plant that says like, we can
camp there and use all their

1511
01:18:38,120 --> 01:18:39,600
venues and stuff.
So I'm like, why not?

1512
01:18:39,960 --> 01:18:42,240
Why not just run a poetry
festival?

1513
01:18:42,320 --> 01:18:45,920
You know?
So I, I think there's so much

1514
01:18:45,920 --> 01:18:48,560
talent and so much desire for
poetry events here that I'm

1515
01:18:48,560 --> 01:18:51,400
like, well, if nobody else is
doing it, it's going to be me.

1516
01:18:51,440 --> 01:18:55,440
So, so yeah, focusing on that,
putting out the new book, doing

1517
01:18:55,440 --> 01:18:56,920
a few more shows.
I don't know, I don't want to

1518
01:18:56,920 --> 01:18:59,080
tour like I used to because it
made my back hurt.

1519
01:18:59,080 --> 01:19:02,600
But like, I'd love to, I'd love
to make it back to the UK and,

1520
01:19:02,600 --> 01:19:05,840
and Australia and like I've been
to Canada and forever.

1521
01:19:05,840 --> 01:19:08,480
I'd love to, to at least do a
few Canadian shows, You know,

1522
01:19:08,480 --> 01:19:11,120
just like I just want to, I just
want to do old man touring where

1523
01:19:11,120 --> 01:19:14,200
I just like fly in for a few
days and then I just like, I

1524
01:19:14,200 --> 01:19:16,640
have all of my books in the
little suitcase and I just show

1525
01:19:16,640 --> 01:19:19,280
up and I, I have my feelings and
then I fly away.

1526
01:19:21,240 --> 01:19:22,880
Little Irish goodbye at the end
there.

1527
01:19:23,160 --> 01:19:25,760
Yeah, just bye.
Thanks for your poutine.

1528
01:19:25,760 --> 01:19:31,040
I'm out of here.
Very nice, very nice.

1529
01:19:32,480 --> 01:19:34,840
Oh, that's good, mate.
It sounds like you got a lot of

1530
01:19:34,880 --> 01:19:38,600
irons in the fire, as they say.
And you're, yeah, you're getting

1531
01:19:38,600 --> 01:19:41,240
involved in, in local community,
which I'm, I'm sure, yeah,

1532
01:19:41,240 --> 01:19:43,600
they're grateful for, for the
growth that's happening there.

1533
01:19:44,080 --> 01:19:47,320
We now turn our attention to the
overarching analogy that we've

1534
01:19:47,320 --> 01:19:52,200
had for Season 2, which is,
Neil, if your, if your creative

1535
01:19:52,200 --> 01:19:56,760
work was an instrument in a
creative orchestra, what

1536
01:19:56,960 --> 01:19:58,320
instrument do you think it would
be?

1537
01:19:58,320 --> 01:20:01,000
Where?
Where do you fit in this in this

1538
01:20:01,000 --> 01:20:03,680
cacophony of sound?
Hell yeah.

1539
01:20:04,160 --> 01:20:08,160
I think maybe this isn't what it
is, but what I'd like it to be

1540
01:20:08,160 --> 01:20:13,920
and how how I think of it is as
a as a trumpet, right where it's

1541
01:20:13,920 --> 01:20:18,840
a thing that like can do solos
and like can be in the spotlight

1542
01:20:18,840 --> 01:20:21,200
and have some attention given to
it.

1543
01:20:21,200 --> 01:20:23,680
But mostly it's like it's a
baseline.

1544
01:20:23,680 --> 01:20:29,040
It helps out the other stuff.
It it, it adds to the overall

1545
01:20:29,040 --> 01:20:32,200
work rather than taking all of
the attention out of it.

1546
01:20:32,200 --> 01:20:34,360
Like it, it might be an
eye-catching thing, but like

1547
01:20:34,520 --> 01:20:36,600
also, it's not a saxophone, you
know what I mean?

1548
01:20:36,600 --> 01:20:38,160
It's not like it's not like a
violin.

1549
01:20:38,160 --> 01:20:41,360
It's not the stuff that like
really gets.

1550
01:20:41,600 --> 01:20:43,360
I don't know.
And maybe I should go to more

1551
01:20:43,360 --> 01:20:44,480
therapy.
But like, I don't think of

1552
01:20:44,480 --> 01:20:46,800
myself as like even I don't
think of myself as the most

1553
01:20:46,800 --> 01:20:50,000
talented or the most the most
incredible poet out here doing

1554
01:20:50,000 --> 01:20:52,240
things.
But like, I've learned some

1555
01:20:52,240 --> 01:20:54,800
stuff, I got some chops.
I can, I can do some solos.

1556
01:20:54,920 --> 01:20:57,160
You know, nobody's talking about
first chair trumpet, right?

1557
01:20:58,520 --> 01:21:00,200
People Trumpet.
Solo, yeah.

1558
01:21:00,600 --> 01:21:04,160
Yeah, right.
So that that's that's that's

1559
01:21:04,160 --> 01:21:06,000
what I think.
Correct me if I'm wrong.

1560
01:21:07,080 --> 01:21:08,120
No, that's good.
That's good.

1561
01:21:08,120 --> 01:21:09,840
I think.
I think we need a few

1562
01:21:09,840 --> 01:21:11,520
Trumpeteers.
So you'll you'll fit in.

1563
01:21:12,200 --> 01:21:15,800
You'll fit in very nicely there.
I like that this orchestra is

1564
01:21:15,800 --> 01:21:18,000
kind of filling out.
I think we've got several

1565
01:21:18,000 --> 01:21:21,080
pianists now.
So there's there's going to be a

1566
01:21:21,080 --> 01:21:24,040
fight for parts there.
So yeah, when we when we get new

1567
01:21:24,040 --> 01:21:27,360
instruments in, that's good.
Now to the the segment of the

1568
01:21:27,360 --> 01:21:31,680
show shamelessly ripped off of a
diary of a CEOI call it Diary of

1569
01:21:31,680 --> 01:21:34,520
a POET.
You've been left a question from

1570
01:21:34,520 --> 01:21:38,560
my previous guest.
So Josh Cake asks what what

1571
01:21:38,560 --> 01:21:41,680
snacks are part of your creative
process?

1572
01:21:41,680 --> 01:21:42,600
Neil?
What are you?

1573
01:21:42,840 --> 01:21:46,480
What are you chewing on
literally while you chew on

1574
01:21:46,480 --> 01:21:48,840
metaphorically your work?
Hell yeah.

1575
01:21:48,840 --> 01:21:53,320
I like spicy stuff.
I, I just, I like when food

1576
01:21:53,320 --> 01:21:58,520
fights back, you know?
So there's I, I like, I like a

1577
01:21:58,520 --> 01:22:03,080
spicy trail mix.
I like honestly, the thing

1578
01:22:03,080 --> 01:22:07,640
that's that I've been doing most
recently is my neighbors have

1579
01:22:07,640 --> 01:22:09,480
been making a bunch of hot
sauce.

1580
01:22:09,480 --> 01:22:13,320
We live out in the country in,
in North Carolina and we like,

1581
01:22:13,600 --> 01:22:14,720
we like our neighbors a whole
bunch.

1582
01:22:14,720 --> 01:22:17,640
So we trade like, we trade like
pet sitting and you know,

1583
01:22:17,640 --> 01:22:20,360
they're, they're, we're, we're
developing a hobby farm.

1584
01:22:20,360 --> 01:22:23,000
So like we're going to be giving
them produce in the future, but

1585
01:22:23,000 --> 01:22:25,680
for now, like their garden is
like totally going.

1586
01:22:25,680 --> 01:22:28,440
They grow a bunch of Peppers.
And so, so they, they, they

1587
01:22:28,440 --> 01:22:32,160
experiment hot sauces on us.
And so honestly, frequently my

1588
01:22:32,160 --> 01:22:34,560
writing snack is I just take a
bunch of their hot sauce.

1589
01:22:34,560 --> 01:22:36,800
I got those, I got some like,
you know, little silver

1590
01:22:36,800 --> 01:22:39,200
ramekins.
Like you get like you get in, in

1591
01:22:39,200 --> 01:22:40,600
restaurants.
I just put the hot sauce in

1592
01:22:40,600 --> 01:22:43,360
there and I just dip whatever I
got in there.

1593
01:22:43,360 --> 01:22:46,400
You know, normally it's just
like some chips or crackers or

1594
01:22:46,400 --> 01:22:48,400
whatever.
But, but sometimes I'm like, all

1595
01:22:48,400 --> 01:22:51,000
right, I have carrots.
I'm eating hot sauce and carrots

1596
01:22:51,000 --> 01:22:53,160
today.
I like, I like to eat stuff

1597
01:22:53,160 --> 01:22:54,760
that's like a little bit
lighter.

1598
01:22:54,920 --> 01:22:57,640
Still is is fueling, but doesn't
make me want to take a nap.

1599
01:22:57,680 --> 01:23:02,120
You know, and, and you know, hot
sauce just, and just gets your

1600
01:23:02,120 --> 01:23:04,720
brain moving a little bit more.
So yeah, you have to, you have

1601
01:23:04,720 --> 01:23:06,720
to pay attention.
You don't want to be, you know,

1602
01:23:06,720 --> 01:23:07,880
you have to keep your hands
clean.

1603
01:23:07,880 --> 01:23:10,200
You don't want to be wiping your
eyes while you've got it on your

1604
01:23:10,200 --> 01:23:13,120
fingers and stuff like that.
So you are exactly correct.

1605
01:23:13,560 --> 01:23:16,040
So yeah, spicy stuff, dude,
that's what I mean.

1606
01:23:17,440 --> 01:23:20,200
I'm with you there.
Do you reckon we need to get

1607
01:23:20,200 --> 01:23:22,960
some like poets on Hot Ones?
Or should we have like a poet's

1608
01:23:22,960 --> 01:23:27,000
version of Hot Ones maybe?
I would honestly, I would love

1609
01:23:27,000 --> 01:23:28,920
it.
I OK, All right, low key, low

1610
01:23:28,920 --> 01:23:31,840
key.
I was, I was almost on the Hot

1611
01:23:31,840 --> 01:23:34,160
Ones.
It was like, it was really close

1612
01:23:34,160 --> 01:23:37,160
to happening.
Like there was a period of time

1613
01:23:37,160 --> 01:23:40,800
where like OCD had blown up.
I was already into Hot Ones and

1614
01:23:41,040 --> 01:23:45,320
the the I was about the level of
fame as the folks they had on

1615
01:23:45,320 --> 01:23:48,320
the show, right?
And we had me scheduled out a

1616
01:23:48,320 --> 01:23:50,680
little bit later because of like
my touring schedule and their

1617
01:23:50,680 --> 01:23:53,520
filming schedule.
And then they really blew up and

1618
01:23:53,520 --> 01:23:55,760
suddenly they were getting like
way higher their caliber folks.

1619
01:23:55,760 --> 01:23:57,640
And they were like, you
understand, And I was like, I

1620
01:23:57,640 --> 01:23:59,520
understand.
I'm bummed out, but I get it

1621
01:23:59,520 --> 01:24:02,360
right.
But there yeah, I was, I was, I

1622
01:24:02,360 --> 01:24:04,400
was this close.
But yeah, it's I I think it'd be

1623
01:24:04,400 --> 01:24:06,480
great.
Like do poems, but eat

1624
01:24:06,640 --> 01:24:08,560
progressively hotter and hotter
hot sauces.

1625
01:24:08,800 --> 01:24:09,960
And like, how do you get
through?

1626
01:24:10,000 --> 01:24:13,080
How do you how do you get
through your most emotional work

1627
01:24:13,320 --> 01:24:16,200
when you're like in a great deal
of physical pain?

1628
01:24:16,200 --> 01:24:18,760
I I'm, I'm into it.
Yeah.

1629
01:24:18,760 --> 01:24:21,000
I'm going to write that down as
an idea for a show.

1630
01:24:21,000 --> 01:24:23,040
Excuse me?
Yeah, please do.

1631
01:24:23,040 --> 01:24:24,440
Please do that.
That's a freebie.

1632
01:24:24,600 --> 01:24:28,560
Can you operate, you know, at
the edge of of physical distress

1633
01:24:30,120 --> 01:24:32,120
while while while doing your
work?

1634
01:24:32,120 --> 01:24:34,080
Yeah.
Oh, I'm so sorry to hear it.

1635
01:24:34,080 --> 01:24:37,600
It didn't happen, but you know.
You know, lots of stuff doesn't

1636
01:24:37,600 --> 01:24:40,000
work out.
I'm sure one day we we will get

1637
01:24:40,000 --> 01:24:42,000
some representation on something
like that or maybe you know,

1638
01:24:42,320 --> 01:24:43,760
chicken shop date or something
like that.

1639
01:24:48,520 --> 01:24:51,200
Is it, Is it Amelia or whatever?
Whoever hosts that anyway.

1640
01:24:52,440 --> 01:24:54,920
Very good.
Neil, you now have the the

1641
01:24:54,920 --> 01:24:58,520
responsibility of leaving a
question for my next guest,

1642
01:24:59,320 --> 01:25:03,640
unbeknownst to who they are.
So what are you thinking?

1643
01:25:04,640 --> 01:25:06,960
I'm thinking, OK, this is a
question I've been asking.

1644
01:25:06,960 --> 01:25:09,400
I've been asking folks in
interviews a lot recently and I

1645
01:25:09,400 --> 01:25:12,800
think it's evoked the the range
of responses has been really

1646
01:25:12,800 --> 01:25:14,880
interesting.
So I want you to think about

1647
01:25:14,880 --> 01:25:18,480
your, your entire career, the
your, your whole Uvra.

1648
01:25:18,640 --> 01:25:22,400
If somebody were soundtracking
it as though it were a movie,

1649
01:25:22,800 --> 01:25:26,040
who's who's soundtracking that?
What does it sound like Some

1650
01:25:26,040 --> 01:25:28,400
people have come up with like,
you know, it's, it sounds like a

1651
01:25:28,400 --> 01:25:30,160
Western.
It's Enrico Marconi or like some

1652
01:25:30,160 --> 01:25:33,080
people have said, I, some people
have been like Kendrick Lamar,

1653
01:25:33,080 --> 01:25:35,800
give me Kendrick Lamar, right.
So who's who's?

1654
01:25:35,840 --> 01:25:37,440
Who's writing the soundtrack to
your movie?

1655
01:25:37,680 --> 01:25:40,760
Of your work or your biopic?
You choose.

1656
01:25:42,240 --> 01:25:44,280
I like it.
Have you had anyone you know do

1657
01:25:44,280 --> 01:25:47,240
the the the Hans Zimmer?
It's just a series of bombs.

1658
01:25:48,400 --> 01:25:50,800
No, right, I honestly, that'd be
that'd be cool as hell.

1659
01:25:50,800 --> 01:25:54,400
That should be my answer.
It's there's also there's also a

1660
01:25:54,400 --> 01:25:56,800
fun.
This is just, I don't cut this

1661
01:25:56,800 --> 01:26:00,040
or not, but like a, a fun game.
Like one of the questions I

1662
01:26:00,040 --> 01:26:03,280
always ask people, right, is
like in the biopic of your life,

1663
01:26:03,800 --> 01:26:06,280
what's the song that plays as
the credits start to roll?

1664
01:26:06,280 --> 01:26:08,320
Like, like what's the, what's
the needle drop?

1665
01:26:08,320 --> 01:26:11,560
You know, I my joke, but also
serious answer is the song walk

1666
01:26:11,560 --> 01:26:14,640
of life by Dire Straits, because
literally, literally, it works

1667
01:26:14,640 --> 01:26:15,720
at the end of every single
movie.

1668
01:26:15,720 --> 01:26:18,760
Think about it like if you're
watching a movie, when you get

1669
01:26:18,760 --> 01:26:21,480
to the end credits, mute it and
put on Walk of Life and it will

1670
01:26:21,480 --> 01:26:25,720
work.
It's a great, it's a great

1671
01:26:25,720 --> 01:26:27,880
keyboard riff.
So, you know, I'm sure I can get

1672
01:26:27,960 --> 01:26:30,400
behind that.
Oh, that's such a cool question.

1673
01:26:30,440 --> 01:26:33,600
I'm, I'm so looking forward to,
to pitching that to, to my next

1674
01:26:33,600 --> 01:26:34,200
guest.
Thank you.

1675
01:26:35,680 --> 01:26:40,040
Neil, if if people are hearing
from you for the first time they

1676
01:26:40,400 --> 01:26:43,320
today and they want to find out
more about you, where are the

1677
01:26:43,320 --> 01:26:46,480
best spaces for them to go to,
to follow your work and what

1678
01:26:46,480 --> 01:26:49,840
you're up to?
Yeah, my, I mean the most

1679
01:26:49,840 --> 01:26:52,840
information's on my website,
justneilhillborn.com.

1680
01:26:53,560 --> 01:26:58,160
I follow my, I mean, you can
follow me on Facebook, which

1681
01:26:58,160 --> 01:27:01,000
seems like an insane thing to
say, but that's the thing.

1682
01:27:01,000 --> 01:27:03,160
That's the thing that gets most
consistently updated.

1683
01:27:03,240 --> 01:27:06,440
You can follow my Instagrams.
Just Neelicorn, Neelicorn like

1684
01:27:06,720 --> 01:27:11,000
like I'm a Unicorn because I
made it in 2010 and I or 11 or

1685
01:27:11,000 --> 01:27:12,240
whatever and I thought I was
really funny.

1686
01:27:12,680 --> 01:27:14,560
Those are the main spaces right
now.

1687
01:27:16,400 --> 01:27:19,600
Also, honestly, you can follow
my publisher Button Poetry.

1688
01:27:19,600 --> 01:27:23,880
They're not only do they and you
can follow them on literally

1689
01:27:23,880 --> 01:27:26,360
whatever platform you want.
Not only do they promote my

1690
01:27:26,360 --> 01:27:29,080
stuff, they promote a lot of
people that I really that I

1691
01:27:29,080 --> 01:27:32,680
really like and believe in.
And I think they're they're

1692
01:27:32,680 --> 01:27:36,160
doing a bunch of cool work, not
just with poetry, but with with

1693
01:27:36,160 --> 01:27:38,560
a bunch of different genres and
they're doing a lot of like,

1694
01:27:39,720 --> 01:27:43,280
anyway, follow those places and
button Poetry.

1695
01:27:43,880 --> 01:27:46,520
That's what I think.
Those things as well as your

1696
01:27:46,520 --> 01:27:49,240
latest book out through button
poetry about time.

1697
01:27:49,240 --> 01:27:51,280
So grab your copy using the link
in the description.

1698
01:27:52,160 --> 01:27:55,160
Neil, you've got one more piece
you're going to leave with us

1699
01:27:55,320 --> 01:27:58,400
before we say goodbye.
What can you tell us about this

1700
01:27:58,400 --> 01:28:01,280
one?
I do so this is this is a poem

1701
01:28:01,320 --> 01:28:02,840
out of my book.
This is.

1702
01:28:04,080 --> 01:28:05,600
I don't know, man.
I've just been trying to be

1703
01:28:05,600 --> 01:28:08,560
joyful these days because so
much good thing to be.

1704
01:28:09,000 --> 01:28:13,080
Yeah and like.
So much in the world and you

1705
01:28:13,080 --> 01:28:15,360
know.
I'm in America.

1706
01:28:15,360 --> 01:28:18,640
America is in a particularly bad
place, but hasn't it been for

1707
01:28:18,640 --> 01:28:21,920
hundreds and hundreds of years?
You know, I'm trying to be

1708
01:28:21,920 --> 01:28:24,040
joyful and happy.
And this poem in particular,

1709
01:28:25,400 --> 01:28:27,960
this is this is almost a
nostalgic poem, but I think it

1710
01:28:27,960 --> 01:28:32,640
really reminds me of like the
the ways in which especially

1711
01:28:32,640 --> 01:28:37,320
especially men, but like, but
anybody can, the ways in which

1712
01:28:37,320 --> 01:28:41,880
like friendship and supporting
one another can, can be so can

1713
01:28:41,880 --> 01:28:46,800
be so simple and like, doesn't
we make it super complicated as

1714
01:28:46,800 --> 01:28:47,800
adult?
It doesn't have to be.

1715
01:28:47,800 --> 01:28:50,480
So this is this is a poem about
rollerblading with my best

1716
01:28:50,480 --> 01:28:52,760
friend Jeff when I was 12, you
know, maybe 13.

1717
01:28:52,840 --> 01:28:54,400
I was 13.
This, this poem about

1718
01:28:54,400 --> 01:28:57,600
rollerblading with Jeff.
This is called Ed White

1719
01:28:57,600 --> 01:29:03,320
Elementary, Seabrook, TX summer.
It's 2002.

1720
01:29:03,320 --> 01:29:06,600
Oh, side note, this poem starts
with an Enise Mojgani quote.

1721
01:29:06,600 --> 01:29:09,320
I mentioned Enise earlier in
this poem.

1722
01:29:11,160 --> 01:29:13,760
Here am I.
He's got a line 13 and alive.

1723
01:29:13,760 --> 01:29:15,800
So I just want to shout that out
because anybody that hears it,

1724
01:29:15,800 --> 01:29:17,200
they'll be like, Neil, you stole
that line.

1725
01:29:17,360 --> 01:29:18,880
I didn't steal it.
I'm referencing it.

1726
01:29:18,880 --> 01:29:21,200
OK.
It's not It's 2025.

1727
01:29:21,200 --> 01:29:22,840
It's not theft if you cite your
sources.

1728
01:29:22,840 --> 01:29:25,640
All right.
Ed White Elementary, Seabrook,

1729
01:29:25,640 --> 01:29:28,920
TX, summer.
It's 2002.

1730
01:29:29,320 --> 01:29:34,000
I'm 13 and alive, and I just
landed A10 stair gap on my

1731
01:29:34,000 --> 01:29:36,480
rollerblades.
Yes, I know rollerblades.

1732
01:29:36,480 --> 01:29:40,320
Skateboarding is hard.
Jeff and I are.

1733
01:29:40,600 --> 01:29:43,320
Jeff and I are out behind the
elementary school where there

1734
01:29:43,320 --> 01:29:47,400
lives the sketchiest staircase
in Harris County.

1735
01:29:47,720 --> 01:29:52,440
Cracked concrete poorly patched
with tar at the top, pitted

1736
01:29:52,440 --> 01:29:55,000
asphalt strewn with gravel at
the bottom.

1737
01:29:55,240 --> 01:29:58,400
I'm skating harder than I need
to 'cause if I'm going to get

1738
01:29:58,400 --> 01:30:03,800
hurt, I should get really hurt.
I think a 540 is the one where

1739
01:30:03,800 --> 01:30:07,160
you land backward.
Or at least I landed backward

1740
01:30:07,160 --> 01:30:12,240
facing the stairs.
Absolutely stomped it first try.

1741
01:30:12,440 --> 01:30:16,440
13 years old out there dropping
hammers in Manu Solomon's.

1742
01:30:16,480 --> 01:30:19,560
I'm going to be whoever is the
whoever.

1743
01:30:19,560 --> 01:30:22,560
I'm going to be the next whoever
is a famous rollerblader.

1744
01:30:22,880 --> 01:30:26,680
I'm going to have a future
containing 10s of dollars.

1745
01:30:26,880 --> 01:30:30,920
I've spin back around and
there's Jeff skating toward me.

1746
01:30:31,400 --> 01:30:34,360
No rips in his jeans.
Not yet, anyway.

1747
01:30:34,520 --> 01:30:38,480
He wants a high 5.
His arms are full of flowers.

1748
01:30:42,880 --> 01:30:44,120
So good.
So good.

1749
01:30:44,200 --> 01:30:47,760
Thank you.
Really, really paints such a a

1750
01:30:47,760 --> 01:30:49,480
vivid picture of of.
A of.

1751
01:30:49,480 --> 01:30:52,200
A nice experience, I suppose.
Like you said, you're, you're

1752
01:30:52,200 --> 01:30:53,720
trying to be joyful.
So that's what it evokes.

1753
01:30:53,720 --> 01:30:55,800
Yeah.
So many of the so many of the

1754
01:30:55,800 --> 01:31:00,160
poems in this book started with.
In my favorite memory, right.

1755
01:31:00,240 --> 01:31:02,680
And like, so I had like 7 or 8
poems that all started in my

1756
01:31:02,680 --> 01:31:05,040
favorite memory and it didn't
work out for for some stupid

1757
01:31:05,040 --> 01:31:06,440
reasons.
I'll probably use it in the next

1758
01:31:06,440 --> 01:31:08,520
book, honestly, but that was one
of them.

1759
01:31:08,560 --> 01:31:11,840
Whereas like in my favorite
memory, it's 2002 and 13 alive.

1760
01:31:11,920 --> 01:31:16,680
And yeah, in a childhood that
kind of really sucked.

1761
01:31:16,680 --> 01:31:19,480
I was trying to pick out the
good parts, you know, so good.

1762
01:31:19,480 --> 01:31:21,000
Well, that's yeah, that's one of
them.

1763
01:31:21,800 --> 01:31:23,840
Neil Hilborn.
I'm.

1764
01:31:23,880 --> 01:31:26,320
I'm so grateful I got to speak
to you.

1765
01:31:26,360 --> 01:31:29,400
I you know, I kind of reached
out to you as a little bit of a

1766
01:31:29,400 --> 01:31:32,600
Hail Mary saying, oh, this will
be a laugh if if Neil Buddy

1767
01:31:32,600 --> 01:31:35,160
Hilborn comes on and and, and
here you are.

1768
01:31:35,480 --> 01:31:39,000
So thank you so much for for
thinking with us and for

1769
01:31:39,000 --> 01:31:41,560
slamming with us today.
Absolutely.

1770
01:31:41,560 --> 01:31:44,240
This was this was such a
pleasure.

1771
01:31:44,280 --> 01:31:46,480
Thank you So.
Much for having me and you're

1772
01:31:46,480 --> 01:31:48,920
doing a really cool thing here.
Oh, thanks mate.

1773
01:31:48,960 --> 01:31:51,000
Appreciate it.
Absolutely.

1774
01:31:51,000 --> 01:31:51,440
Thank you.