Neil Hilborn - The World's #1 Most Watched Slam Poet

0:03 Proudly tariff free since 2024. Welcome to I think therefore I slammed the podcast bringing you the best spoken word in slam poetry artists from Australia and beyond. And today we are well and truly living up to that tagline. My name's Andrew by the way. I should say sorry for being so rude, dear listener. But yes, today we are truly living up to that tagline we have with us today. Surely one of the faces on the Mount Rushmore of modern slam poets. My guest today is originally from Houston, TX, now settled in North Carolina. He's performed in 41 U.S. States and eight countries, has written 4 poetry collections. His latest collection, About Time is out now via Button Poetry.

0:46 He also holds the title of Most Watched Poet ever with over 150 million views online, particularly for his breakthrough poem OCD. Most importantly, you can hear him in the intro to our podcast. He is Mr. He doesn't care if it's perfect himself. Neil Hilborn, this is an incredible honour to have you on. Andrew, thanks so much for having me. Also, thanks for putting me in the intro, right, right between Jonah Hill and Mike Myers. It like feels pretty. It feels pretty good, you know? It's good. It's good company to keep, isn't it? Now, I do want to ask you before we get into things, I do like to ask my American guests, you know, is everything OK?

1:29 How? How are things over there? No, no, no. Stuff's bad, dude. It's, yeah. It's a terrifying dystopian nightmare that we're all just trying to, we're all just trying to help each other through, you know, I like, ultimately it's obviously this all happened, you know, like we went through similar emotions with the first Trump presidency. But but it's, it's, it just feels more more immediate and more terrifying because they feel like they got a clock on themselves, you know? So it's, so it's this weird thing where like, it's a horrible, incompetent clown show that like can't get anything done.

2:10 But the stuff they do get done is nightmarish. So it's, yeah, I don't know. It's this, it's this constant back and forth of like not paying attention to the news because it's exhausting. And I feel like I won't get anything accomplished. And then having and then paying attention to what's going on around me so I can actually help folks when I get the opportunity to help them. You know, it's yeah, it's a terrible nightmare. And we're in the final season of America. So we'll, we'll see what happens, dude. Yeah, well, we're, we're all rooting for you, Neil. And, and, and all us all fellow artists over that way. You know, I've, I've spoken to some other guests from over there and thought that it's gonna be really interesting to see what kind of art comes out of these times.

2:51 You know what I mean? Yeah, You know, not that you have to suffer to create good art, but suffering often can be involved in the process of creating good art. You know, even just in the, you know, like I run a poetry slam in Raleigh, NC and like, I was just at a poetry tournament and just seeing the, the, the poetry shows I've been to lately, people just, they need it. They need it in a way that they might not when stuff's going great. I mean, it's, it's cliche at this point. But like when things are hard, art and expression in community and public vulnerability is more important than than ever. So, you know, maybe, maybe there will be some good poems and maybe those good poems will help us through this.

3:32 Yeah, yeah. Hear, hear. Now, Neil, just to give you an idea of how far and wide your work has reached, in the lead up to this interview, I met a new work colleague and just talking about hobbies, told her about the podcast. And I think they told me, oh, I know nothing about slam poetry. Oh, I think I've, I've watched, you know, one or two videos years ago, whatever. And I thought, you know what? I I'm, I'm gonna test this was was was there a guy in there talking about turning a light switch off and on and off and on and off and on she goes. Yes, even in amongst the people who are not as familiar with slam poetry, you are somewhat of a household name. It's it's wonderful to see. It feels pretty cool and and also absolutely terrifying because I, I don't know, man.

4:19 I mean, obviously you don't, you don't expect or plan on like going viral, right? I was, I was completely shocked when that, I mean, legitimately, OK, I shouldn't, this is not how I should open this, but whatever. When, when that poem went viral, like I was with my with my slam team from Minneapolis. We were going to the National Poetry Slam in Boston. We'd stop that night in Cleveland 'cause it's a 24 hour drive between Minneapolis and Boston. So we were spending the night in Cleveland. You know, we went to a bar 'cause we were all in our early 20s to talk, you know, to talk strategy. And so like, literally, I woke up in a hotel room in Cleveland hungover. And then my roommate was like, Hey, Neil OC DS on the front page of Reddit. It's got 4 million views. You're Internet famous buddy. And I was like, I'm going to go throw up really quick. And then when I come back, we'll process that. So everybody I knew was was completely shocked by the whole thing.

5:10 And so, so like whenever, whenever I hear stuff like, sorry, I jumped right into that story. But whenever I hear stuff like that, I just try to like, I I immediately relate it to like, yeah, but Neil, you're, you're still, you're still you, dude. You're still a disgusting idiot. And. Still Jenny from the block. Yeah, right. Because I, I don't know it, the nature of, of the Internet and things going viral is so capricious that I think what I like, I think it's that moment was really cool. And I think my career after that has been defined by me trying to trying to earn that moment and trying to be like, like, yeah, that crazy thing happened. Now let me get out in the world and work super hard and travel a bunch and do a lot of shows and, and really like show that like, I didn't just get lucky. I worked really hard up to that moment that I got lucky and I continued to work hard after that. That's that's really interesting how you talked about like trying to earn it.

6:05 Like do you feel like you're there or is it, is it is it one of those things where the goal posts are shifting or do you feel like you're in a comfortable place where you're like, you know, it's all come together? I don't want to say like I've earned it, I'm done, you know what I mean? But I, I do think that like when especially I felt a lot of guilt when that, when that video first went viral because I, yeah, because honestly, like the scene, I was like the, the poetry scene then was so good and, and still is really good. But, but the, especially the Minneapolis poetry scene was so good and vibrant that like I was looking around at all of my friends and I was like, man, they are all more talented than me. Why is it me? Right. And so I felt really guilty that I was like, I felt as though, like I don't deserve this. I hadn't I, I didn't earn this right and that that followed me around a lot, but you know, I went to a bunch of therapy and also I feel like I have since I mean, it's been, I don't know that that video first went viral in 2013. It's 2000, whatever year it is, you know, I think that since then I have won like because of the opportunities I've gotten from that video.

7:10 I've done, I've, I've done a bunch of shows in terms of like spoken word poets, I've got to be at least in the top ten, probably more like top five. You know, there there's, I mean, if we're especially modern, if we're talking Gil Scott Heron and, and like even Saul Williams, like they destroyed me forever. But if we're talking like 2nd to 3rd wave and beyond slam poets, I've got to be up there, right? It's me and Buddy Wakefield and Andrew Gibson and Denise Mozkani. And I'm sure I'm forgetting somebody that I'll be pillaged for. But between doing shows and, and mentoring and putting out books and just like trying to actively like nurture folks in the spoken word community, I, I feel, I feel as though maybe when the video first went viral, I don't feel like I deserved it.

7:54 But I feel since then that I've, I've earned it and that I'll try to continue to earn it, you know? Yeah, Good, good. Well, we'll be, we'll be talking more specifics about the OCD poem a little bit later. For now, I think we're all keen to hear the first piece that you've brought with you today. You got it. This poem. This is this is one of my favorite poems from my new book. It's so every every year or so, I like to have a new poem that I open live sets with. I just like to always open with the same poem. It just helps me get in the headspace of, OK, the show's happening. All right, Neil, get your get yourself together. We're doing this. So this is this is one of the ironically, one of the last poems in the book, but it's always the first poem in the set. It's titled, the title's a Whitman reference. It's parentheses.

8:41 I am large. I contain multitudes. I would like this evening to make a compact with the stars. I would like us to agree that we will continue to shine even after we are dead. I'm not ignoring the dirt. The dirt will come later. I just want to begin among the stars. I would like to thank this world that allows me to be in it even though of it I am so very scared. I would like to thank the one therapist in North Carolina who accepts my health insurance. I would like to say I would like to suggest if your feet are cold, consider your laptop charger.

9:23 I would like to acknowledge dogs and their willingness to receive pets from me. I'd like 8 full hours of sleep, but I'll take 5 and a nap on a plane. I'd like apples to be sweeter and mangoes to be closer to me. I'd like to say. I'd like to say that yours is the only permission you need to love yourself. I want to hurl wishes into the fog. I want to be ungovernable as a possum in a darkening field. I want to drive around the block because the song isn't over yet. I'd like to thank concrete, snow, days, the dark that's always rising. I'd like to thank the dirt you thought I forgot about the dirt. The dirt holds my mother, and someday it will hold me. Thank you, dirt, for doing everything with persistence and grace.

10:16 Thank you for the mirror you hold up to me. Thank you, stars, for making the dirt and me. I promise to become the dirt one day. I would like this evening, in front of everything that lives between here and the end, I'd like to make a promise. Whatever I've got left in me, you can have it. I've been gathering these stones. I think it's time to roll them all away. Yeah, man. Woo. Yeah. Here's here's to the dirt.

10:58 Here's to the dirt. Dirt. So good. Thank you, Neil for that. Thank you. Let's jump in. Let's jump in the DeLorean, shall we? I wanted to know what's what is your kind of origin story of starting to create and share your work on stage. So before you know, before the OCD poem took off, before the touring, what was it that started you on the path? Yeah, I mean, I always, I always knew I always liked poetry. I was, you know, I knew I wanted to be involved in poetry in some capacity. Like when I went to college, I knew I was going to get an English degree, but I always thought I was going to be like a poetry professor. I was just going to be involved in, in pagey things because I'd never, I'd never heard of spoken word until or like slam poetry, especially until my sophomore year of college, right when my friend, well, now he's my friend.

11:48 At the time I didn't like him actually, but my friend Dylan, he you can tell him I said that my, my friend Dylan, he came to a, a meeting of my literary magazine Thistle shout out Thistle. RIP. He, you know, we, we ran like a weekly workshop and he, he, he was like, OK, I've got a slam poem. I would a workshop, but I'm like, what is that? And he did, he stood up and he did an absolutely terrible poem. But you know, we all sucked back then, right? We were all just like really bad. But he really, he really meant it. He was super sincere. And I didn't know you could do a poem and yell at the same time, which I always thought was really cool because like I, I grew up in Houston going to punk shows and like being a part of the punk scene, but I have no musical talent. So like I can't play guitar.

12:30 I can barely even saying, you know, I, I've sort of been learning drums lately. But anyway, so like I always wanted to be in a band, but I never could, right. And so when when Dylan gets up and he's like, I'm going to yell and do poems, I was like, me too, please. Also, I would like to so literally like that. Just right after that, I just went up to him. I'm like, tell me more about this. What the Hell's going on? So he showed me. He showed me videos of some of his favorite poets, which this is 2000 8. So like the videos were all like really terrible things recorded on like on like phones and stuff. So he showed me like Buddy Wakefield, the information man. He showed me a nice Mushagani's poem, Here am I. He showed me Andrea Gibson's for Eli, a lot of those like second wave slam folks, right?

13:20 That were really especially coming out of like the West Coast in Colorado and stuff like that. And I was like, this is fascinating. Tell me more. So turns out there was a thriving St. poacher scene in the Twin Cities. I had no idea. Excellent. This was in Minnesota. It's in St. Paul, MN. I went to college at a spot called McAllister College. I had no idea when I moved there. Very fortuitous. Turns out because we went, he took me to the Minneapolis and Saint Paul poetry slams. I was like, this is brilliant. I would like to do it. We started a we started a poetry slam at our college and then we just kind of snowballed from there. You know, I, I'd never, I'd never performed before. I got on stage at our poetry, like our first poetry site was my first time ever performing a poem in front of people. But I, I loved it, Man, that was bad. But I loved it.

14:06 And so I just, yeah, it was just, there was just always kind of the next thing after that. It was like, OK, well, here's here's the next slam here. Oh, we let's put together A-Team to go to college nationals. OK, great. We made it. That's awesome. You know, so it was just, it always just felt like a natural progression after that. But yeah, thanks, Dylan. I have a lot of stuff in my life that I love because of you. And and yet it started with, you know, I think a lot of great friendships start with some kind of animosity or some kind of, you know, who does this guy think he is? Yeah, well, it's, it's, it was more like I just, you know, I was a sophomore and he was a first year and like, I had gotten to a minor disagreement with his roommate or something.

14:48 You know, it was nothing, not a like nothing memorable. I don't even remember what any of the content was about. But like I remember like Dylan rolled up to our to our lit mag and I was like, what deal they're doing here? And then, you know, all of that's immediately forgotten, right. So but yeah, definitely, definitely enemies to friends arc going on in there. Love it. Love it. While you were in the Twin Cities, did you ever cross paths with, like, Kyle Tranmire or anyone like that? Yeah. Hell yeah, I was just hanging out with him on Saturday. I I interviewed him a couple of weeks ago. He was, he was so, so lovely. Yeah. He's he's one of one of my not only like he's one of my favorite poets like period.

15:29 I've I've learned so much from him. So like when so I started, I started going to poetry slams in 2000 and nine, 2009 was the first year the Saint Paul team won the national poetry slam and and he was on it was him and Carrie Jackson AK 6 is 9 and Sierra de Mulder and Michael Blackaday, right. And so like, the the scene was already hopping when I showed up and Kyle was a huge part of it. Yeah, Kyle, Kyle's the dude. I've learned. I've learned so much about how especially like how to how to captivate a crowd. And he has this really incredible lecture about how the personal being the political and the way that the way that like you can write a political poem from a very personal lens. It's it's he's got a whole thing about mountains and drilling. And I'm like, this is a really this is also a really interesting thing.

16:15 Anyway, whatever. Love Kyle is the point. I love Kyle so much. Yeah, yeah, no, he was. He was so, so wonderful. Had such great insight into into what he does now. Neil, I believe in your extensive touring that you have been to kind of our corner of the world here in Australia and you're on the record saying that you cried while meeting a wombat. I did I wept. I I mean, OK, wombats have been have been they've been my favorite animal since I was a very tiny child and that the, so that the, that tour, I mean it was, you know, it was a few shows, right? So I did. I was in Brisbane, Sydney and Melbourne. The. West Coast always misses out. I know it's sorry, Perslings, It's not because I don't like you, but your country is very big and there's nothing, there's nothing between anyway.

17:04 It's always so funny like as as a as a touring person, when you know, a schedule comes out and people are like, man, you must really hate Pittsburgh, PA. And I'm like, first of all, this was sent to me. I didn't make a single decision about it. They asked one city I wanted to go to when I said, please, I would like to go to Dallas, please, you know, or whatever. Anyway, so sorry, Perth. It's not nothing personal, but the tour ended in in Melbourne and my wife and I, we scheduled two weeks because we were like, well, we're here, so let's enjoy ourselves, right? And so the first thing we did was went to a spot in Melbourne. I hope it isn't, I hope this isn't a terrible place. We tried to find somewhere that was, that seemed pretty ethical.

17:45 It's called Healesville. Sanctuary. Lovely, lovely. OK, cool. And they had and like, because we went on an off day, they had, you know, you could just like book, like little like wildlife encounters quote UN quote for for just a little extra cash, right, where you could just like actually hang out with the animals, you know, the ones that wanted to hang out like the koalas. They were like, you can stand near them, but don't touch the koalas or like the dingoes, they were like don't get close to the dingo at all. What are you talking about? But the wombats and the echidnas were super chill, right? And so, so, you know, it's basically just just us and the zookeeper and a wombat just kind of sat down in my lap and I, and it wasn't so much, you know, like the wombat didn't make me sad.

18:27 I was just thinking like, man, 8 year old me would be losing his mind right now. And so I, it was more like crying because I was like, oh, I'm actually like taking care of child me and like child me didn't really get taken care of that much. So it's cool that adult me could come in here and through, through the magic of time travel, like healed this little tiny part of myself, you know? Yeah, the wombat was really nice. Also, I my favorite thought, legitimately my favorite were the echidnas. They were. They were so sweet and strange and you wouldn't think something so spiny would like pets but they loved it so I fed them like bug mush and just paint. Just petted them for.

19:09 I love the Achiddos, they're such weirdos. You you might know about wombats as well, that their poop is cubic. Cubed. Yeah, so it doesn't like fall down the the mounds where they're trying to mark their territory. So they're. You're, I mean, obviously you know this, but like your whole continent is full of bizarre and interesting. This strange wildlife. It's obviously it's iconic, like all Australians full of spiders and snakes. But like, it's not, it's not just like literally every animal is just adapted to live in a place that wants you dead all the time. It's fascinating. What a cool, what cool biodiversity you have over there.

19:49 And I hear what you were saying about, you know, sanctuaries and zoos. Like I walked into Adelaide Zoo for the first time a few weeks ago. And as I was going there, I was thinking, wait a minute, are zoos gross? And and then as I went around, I realized they've got a particular kind of bent on like endangered species and whatever. And, and everything you pay for there goes into those efforts. So I'm pretty sure everything's pretty above board. Down our way. So, so Healesville is, is, yeah, an absolute kind of staple out in the in the the ranges there. Cool. Neil, did you have any other like memories that you can share from your your touring days over here? How much time you got? I I loved it. I, I had so much fun. I honestly wish like, you know, that was in 2017 and then or 8, whatever the hell that was, you know, then I spent like the next couple years like touring super hard because effectively what happened, like part of the reason I was even in Australia in the 1st place is OCD like weirdly went viral again in 2017.

20:50 And that's how I was able to cause like before that I've been touring primarily in colleges, right? I'm getting to Australia, I promise. And I've been touring primarily in colleges. And then when it blew up again, I got contacted by a bunch of folks that book like rock'n'roll venues and stuff like that, which is actually how suddenly there was enough money for me to like, I went to the UK a few times and how And I was like, you know, went to Australia and it was going to do Europe thing and then a little thing called Covad happened, right? Australia was it, it, it was. We were going to do an Australia and New Zealand thing and also do Adelaide and Perth. But anyway, that was always my plan was come back and do more shows. But some of my favorite stuff.

21:32 OK, literally like when we first showed up in Brisbane, my, my wife, my wife Annie came with me and we walked off the airplane and the, the dude from that met us from the promoter was a former slash current Hell's Angel named Gavin. He was like, you know, we just walk. We just walk up. He's like, hey guys, call me Gaz. And we're like, sure, Gaz. And this dude, this dude like 6-4 totally tatted Gray hair, like long braid and stuff like that. And, you know, and he was, I was working with his promoter and he was like, yeah, I'm taking you around all of Australia, right? And I was like, you are, that's never happened before. He's like, yeah, you know, we drive on the wrong side of the road. You don't want to, you don't want to do that. I was like, OK, but sure.

22:14 And so literally like Gavin was just with us this whole week just telling us these crazy ass stories about what, what rock stars did in the 80s. And also like him driving around comedians these days and now comedians are total psychos. I think he was a little bummed that I was like, I don't really drink that much, you know, I don't, I don't know, like I don't know if you were trying to go out in old Sydney, but I'm just not. I just, I just don't want. Gavin was great, man. There were, there were, you know, mostly he's just this very sweet, very unassuming man. And then like, at one point, like in the green room in Melbourne, like somebody who was, yeah, a little, a little hammered, like started like climbing the stairs trying to come in the green room pretty much naked.

22:57 I'm changing clothes. And so Gavin, like, it's the first time I'd ever heard him raise his voice. You kind of hear somebody coming up the stairs. He looks around and he goes. That's all you need sometimes. Yeah, right. And then like I just heard. So, yeah, Gavin was great. He's very, very protective. And like, he was very insistent about like, he's like, OK, when we go to Sydney, there's just one meat pie stand we have to go to. It's my favorite part of Sydney. And you got to get it this particular way. And I was like, sure, but I, I will do literally whatever you tell me to do. And he was correct. It was really, I don't remember the name of it. I remember it was kind of down by some wharfs.

23:38 Maybe Australians know this. But like, I, I, I was shocked at how cool Brisbane was. I, you know, you always hear about like Sydney and Melbourne and how they're like super cool and, and culture. But like Brisbane was, Brisbane was kind of my favorite. Don't tell anybody, but I, I, there was, and maybe it was just the neighborhoods we were in, but it felt like super punk rock and like really, just like really comfy and DIY where it was like all the, you know, a bunch of like musicians and poets that showed up to the show. They all clearly knew each other. They were all like doing each other's shows. I don't know. I'm if comparably right. It feels like in in the US, New York and Los Angeles are like the places that everybody thinks of where all the cool stuff is happening, all the arts going on. And then I'm like, yeah, but there's, there's also really cool art happening in Philadelphia and Portland and Seattle and Chicago.

24:32 You know, I, I'm, I'm always a, I'm always a slightly smaller city where you can get to know everybody in the scene type of dude. And that's really what Brisbane felt like to me. Yeah. No, it would. It would, yeah. Yeah, so my apologies to everybody in the very southeast of the country, but you know, Brisbane was dope. That's fine. Look, we're, we're happy to, happy to share the love, you know? Good. Yeah, Sydney, you know, Sydney is often seen as kind of the the beating heart with, with some really, really big events down that way. But Brisbane absolutely holds it's own, you know, as does a lot of the East Coast. So oh, that's good. I guess you're, you know, your, your tour is only as good as your host. So it sounds like Gaz was was the perfect, perfect. Gaz was awesome.

25:16 It was so much fun. I I also, I felt super cool honestly. Different, you know. Like it was so safe. Oh God I was. I've honestly never been safer in my life. That's it. That's it. All you had to say was one word. Yeah. One word. Got it. Done. Are are you, are you thinking of coming back at some point? Is that? I'd love to it's, I mean, it honestly, it feels like stuff is really just rebuilding now. It feels like agents and promoters are really just, they were like, OK, we got to focus on the stuff that's going to make us money. So like even like touring musicians were, you know, a lot of folks in smaller bands had to start booking DIY stuff, right?

25:59 And so it all that is to say that like the industry, the touring industry is absolutely rebuilding, assuming we don't get plunged into a global recession, that's a whole other thing. But it very much I would love to and it's absolutely a thing I would love to do. And my, my publisher button poetry is we're, we're moving into like them also being a booking agency for me. Because an advantage that we have as, as folks who do spoken word is that like our tech needs are and our, our tech needs, our staging needs are so minimal, right? So if we, if we, we have, we've done this a bit in the US, but we're thinking about doing it internationally.

26:44 We're kind of, we're going to do a test in the UK first and see if this, if this system works out. But basically like if we can rent the venues ourselves and if they have APA, you know, microphone, that's great. And if not, I can rent one when I roll up, you know, if we can make that work. I would love to go back to Australia. I had so much fun and I feel like everybody needs poetry right now. And if I could, if I could, if I could help be a part of that in as many places as possible, that's really what I want to do. That's a long answer to say yes, yes, it's not. It's not explicitly but like it's on my To Do List, you know? Yeah, yeah, high up on it. And you know, I know that say like Rudy Francisco had his tour over here last year.

27:25 Yeah. I think the ground is is kind of set for for some bigger names. I've got a forthcoming guest who he's interested in coming and was, was actually, you know, very, very kindly of him was asking for my help to organise that tour. And I was, I was trying to be clear that that's not really my skill set. But I've tried my best to get him in touch with, with, with some local, local events. And yeah, we'll see whether that comes around. So, yeah, Brad. Yeah, people want it. People want to go to Australia. Every poet I've ever talked to about it has been like, Oh my God, I would love to. I'm like you should it's it's inexpensive and insane to get there, but once you're there stuff it's actually pretty cheap to get around. Once you're there, you've got gas by your side, you're all good to go. Sure.

28:08 Man, if you got gas, you don't. You'll get to the show. You you got a mate. You got a mate, Neil, I want to I want to zoom in on your most famous Sloan poetry piece, which is OCD. And you know, it's a piece that has really resonated deeply with with millions of people. And as much as it is, you know, if you looked at that piece written in front of you on the page, as much as it's, it's, it's fantastic and really pops on the page for me, it really is the performative elements that you brought to it, particularly in that recording in, in 2013. You know, the fact that you've, you're so embodied when you when you do it and, and you know, your, your voice cracking on, on different words and, and you know, the points where I, I don't know if this was delivered or not, but it's almost like you're ticking or something at, at some point in the in the poem.

29:00 You've been very open about like your experience of, of mental illness and how that shaped your work and your identity as a writer. So can you, yeah. Can you take us a little bit more into that around, I guess the story behind the piece and yeah, how your your experiences has shaped everything you do? Yeah, for sure. So it's funny that that poem originally started as an entirely funny poem. There was no turn in the middle. There wasn't any heartbreak, honestly, originally started because like, I was just hanging out with some friends and we were just riffing about how like how I have OCD and asthma. Isn't that so silly, right? And then it's like we're just coming up with just a bunch of jokes and like, so, so originally the poem started this, this like sort of silly monologue about how like, oh, I have OCD and asthma, That's why you broke up with me, right? And then through successive drafts, it kind of we kind of realized that like what the core of the poem was about. I mean that that one went through like 20 drafts. And so it was about 10 drafts in that I finally that I finally realized like, oh, what's this poem's that this poem's actually about how difficult it is to to have a close relationship with somebody who has any kind of severe mental illness. But in this case, OCD, because that's what I had personal experience with.

30:18 And specifically with OCD, the way it extracts time and patience from the person, from the person you're close to, right? And so that's it. It's so funny that it took everybody else knew what this poem was about, but it took me a long time to realize what this poem was actually about, right in, in the way that for every especially spoken word piece, you have 3 minutes, right? So it's every spoken word piece, the, the narrative can be a little smoothed out. So like that, you know, that poem isn't like a 1 to 1 retelling of like my relationship with somebody. It was, it was a combination of like of two different relationships, mostly the one that I was actually in when I was writing the poem, but some elements from, from a couple of others.

30:59 And some of the OCD is obviously it's not just the ticks, right? The difficult part with OCD is the obsessions and the ticks are just a physical, the ticks or the, or the compulsions in general, or just a physical manifestations of those obsessions, right? And I, I have plenty of ticks and compulsions. But for me, the, the difficult part has always been the, the obsession of like, OK, so if I'm, if I'm walking, you know, OK, I'm at the top of these stairs. If I don't hit the, the, the top of stair with the heel of my right foot, when I go down, I'm going to fall down it and I'm going to horribly injure myself and I'm going to linger for three months and then I'm going to die, right? So like, that's, that's what the obsession is. And, and then the, the foot hitting, the hitting The thing is just the manifestation of it.

31:49 So for me that the time consuming part and the part that's really, that's really exhausting is always the, the obsessions. So I, I couldn't necessarily include all, all of my all of my obsessions and all of my ticks in the poem because some of some of them are a little bit weirder, dude. Like like if certain textures touch like touch my skin, I have to like like, like for instance those like fake plush velvet blankets, if those touch me, I have to then wipe off my skin with like multiple different textures. Otherwise I'm going to continue feeling that texture and it's going to get louder and louder and louder until I I freak the hell out and then have a genuine panic attack right. So, but like that's a little bit harder and more esoteric to say in 3 minutes in a slam poem.

32:34 So while in my past, I like door locking was a big thing and light checking was a big thing, that's when I was writing the poem. I was like this. I had been doing a therapy that those weren't actively affecting me in that moment. But it's the touchstones that people have for OCD. And I was like, OK, everybody can get this. And that's a lens to get into the conversation I actually want to have, which is about this time and patience thing in the relationship. And it's funny because the whole, the whole poem, I originally, like wrote and drafted it a bunch because the team from my college was going to college nationals in, you know, wherever the hell it was Ann Arbor, MI that year.

33:21 And we, we just, you know, needed a competition piece. And this was like, this was a poem that I really liked and I, I believed in it. And like we happened to win that year, partially because of the strength of that poem, but also like everybody on the team, we all just worked really hard, right? And so, so in my head, when I was, when I was doing drafts of it, I was like, I'm just going to win. We're going to, we're going to go to the competition and we're going to try to win this thing. And but because it, because it worked, I, you know, I did it at shows and did it on tour. Like, you know, my friends and I booked some DIY tours after, after some of those competitions. And weirdly, the performance of the performance that shows up in the video that went viral, that was going to be my last time ever performing it, right?

34:08 I've been, I've been doing it for years and years. And I had technically already retired the poem because especially if you're in the slam world, you like, you can see when scores start to drop off after a while, when you've been doing a poem over and over. And like, judges get used to it, audiences get used to it, right? And so, and I had seen that happen with this poem. And I was like, OK, I'm going to retire this. I'm going to put it aside. And when we went to that tournament, the Rust Belt Regional Poacher Slam, it was in like Madison, WI that year. I made it to individual finals. And Sam, the president of Button poetry, brand new at the time, they were filming that, that that tournament. And Sam was just like, hey, Neil, you made Indy finals. That's great.

34:49 I don't have a good video of OCD. Just go do it, right. And so I just like walk up a stage, be like, this is the last time I'm ever going to perform this poem. Little that I know, right? Wink, wink. This is the 80s. It's like record scratch. You're probably wondering how I got Yeah anyway, but but it what's nice about that, and I think that's a thing that I was sort of talking about earlier. It's like I got really lucky in that moment with that video. But that kind of ignores the years I had spent performing like I'd probably between performances in front of people and practicing that poem with myself and in front of teams, Like I'd performed that poem like over 1000 times, you know?

35:33 So it's like like, yeah, I absolutely got lucky with that, with that video and happened and like the fact that we happen to get that performance of it, but that that one moment is also the culmination of years of work and practice. You know, it is funny to think about like this this one time in 2013, but like, I started writing a poem in 2010, you know? So yeah, man, what a cool. What a cool little moment. That's fascinating because I imagine you would have got up there, you know, so, so relaxed, for lack of a better word, with, with like no pretense going like this is this is something I've, I've been doing for a long time. So you're already comfortable with the with the way it kind of flows. I think that's very freeing to be able to to just go, Hey, this is one more time for old times sake. And yeah, it just it just kind of took off. So, so congratulations.

36:26 Thank you. It's also so funny with that relaxation. I don't ever swear in that poem. That's literally one of the only performances that I ever, I ever swear ever. And it just came out of my mouth for some reason. And now, now every time, especially I do, you know, shows of like high schools or middle schools, they're like, OK, so can this this be a clean set? I'm like, yeah, I'm so sorry. Like, I didn't mean it, you know? Anyway, whatever. And, and it's interesting. I mean, I'm interested what you, I'm interested what you think about this. So I, I feel like a term, a term, right? Like OCD, you know, is, is, is sometimes thrown around a bit casually, you know, people go, oh, I'm so OCD about this.

37:07 To the point where if, if I hear someone say that, I, I generally have to ask them. I'm not necessarily being confrontational about it, but I generally have to ask them, especially if I don't know them very well. I'm like, oh, did you mean that like diagnostically or or were you just using that as a, as a term phrase? So do you think we're getting, we're getting closer to, I don't know, maybe not not doing that crap so much? I think in general, as a, as a world, we're trying to be more, I mean, some of us are trying to be more sensitive about like the, the way that we casually use language in the world. It's, it's never, it's never really bothered me because like, I know at least most of the time when people say stuff like that, it's, it's not, there's no malice in it.

37:48 There's no like malicious intent. It's it's mostly just honestly, man, also at the same time it I get it. It's hard to think about every single thing you say out in the world and like that, that can be exhausting. And so, you know, like sometimes stuff just comes out of your mouth. I get it, right. But I think that in general, folks are thinking a lot harder about the ways in which the stuff we say might actually, for lack of a better term, like make people around us feel terrible, you know, because like I, I don't get bothered by it. But that doesn't mean that somebody who has OCD wouldn't feel trivialized by somebody being like, I'm just so OCD. I like to have my socks in a particular order, you know, And it's like, Nah, dude, that's like, that's not what it is. Like, you know, like if you said, like I'm so OCD, I've washed my hands a million times and now they're bleeding that that to me like that, that anyway, sorry, I'm not being I'm not being articulate about this, but I think that in general in the world, they're I'm seeing a movement toward people just being more careful with with the the terminology and the stuff they use out in the world.

38:57 Well, look, the bottom line is it's, it's a fantastic piece And, and you know, it's one of those things where whenever I see it pop up on my you know, for you page or whatever, I, I will always watch it. I will always make time for Neil and, and the piece OCD. So, and again, it's, it's, it's been so impactful now on those lines. I, I'm interested in, in what the role that writing has played in kind of, you know, bringing you clarity or healing in ways that, you know, you mentioned, you mentioned therapy. A lot of people you, you know, might have a medication for, for something like this. Has how is writing formed part of you know Wellness or balance for you?

39:43 First of all, sometimes people will talk about poetry as therapy and I'm like, no, no, no, therapy is therapy. Just Just want to put that out there. And obviously that's loaded. Like not everybody has time or funds or access to therapy. But if you have that access, that to me, that's always been the biggest tool. If you don't have that access, writing also is an incredible tool specifically for this reason. Having any kind of mental illness, I think I don't want to speak for everybody, but the certainly for me, one of the, the, the biggest thing that writing has done for me is helped me externalize my internal state. Like if I'm having an intrusive thought or having like some kind of obsession that's just going around and around, it's if it's just in my brain, I can, I can ignore it, I can discount it.

40:30 I can say, Oh, that's not real. That's, you know, I can do whatever rationalization that's occurred to me, right? But actually write it down on a physical piece of paper and I'm I'm looking at it, my brain shifts. I'm like, Oh, this is real. This is a real feeling that a real person had. And it's clear that they had it because it's written down in front of them, you know? And so externalizing a thing has helped me, one, believe that my internal state is real. And two, then begin to start working on that internal state, right? It because suddenly, like when it's not just a nebulous thing in my brain, I can like make plans and be like, Oh, well, like, obviously, Neil, you're not going to fall down the stairs if you don't, not to use this as a metaphor all the time.

41:15 But like if you, if you don't hit the top stair with the heel of your boot, because because you're already looking at the stairs and you've walked down stairs thousands of times and you've fallen down them twice, statistically, Neil, you're not going to, you're not going to fall down these stairs, right? So for me, writing has always been my primary form of metacognition. You know where it, it helps me think about my, my thoughts rather than just being subject to them. Whether or not you got a therapist, you can write down, you can write down what you're feeling and then maybe later, if you want, you can turn it into a pretty poem or an ugly poem or whatever kind of poem you want. But the, the first aid is just, it's just brain literally brainstorming, just getting the stuff out of your brain.

41:59 I'll do a piece of paper in front of you. Yeah, I think a term that might be used for it is, is like diffusion, you know what I mean? Creating a well, you know, especially if you're if you're writing on a page like almost creating a physical, a physical or metaphorical distance between you and and and the thought, I suppose. 1000%, yeah. And it's, yeah, literal distance. Also, it gives you a sense of control a little bit where it's like, well, now the thought is on a piece of paper and I can tear that paper up. I can burn it. I can, I can write it 1000 times. And then suddenly the feeling is in 1000 pages is in 1000 pieces on 1000 different pieces of paper.

42:39 There's the the The metaphor is simple, but it's right there. Yeah, yeah. And I think especially in, in, you know, like a therapy school, like ACT, yeah, there are all these exercises you could do. Like, you know, they encourage you to, to, you know, if you're troubled by thought to like put it in a song or something like that. And, and to try and, and see how, how malleable it can be and, and to make it. Yeah, how malleable you can make it. So, yeah, no, thanks. Thanks for the insights there. I'm wondering what, what do you think? Like how? How do you measure growth as as a poet? You've obviously been doing this thing for a long time in many, many different contexts. What's your perspective on how you measure your own growth in what you've done?

43:25 This is this is going to be an annoying answer, but it's really just am I, am I continuing to entertain myself? OK, I always try to think of myself as my main audience, right? Like I, I try to create art that I would want to read because I think at this point I got pretty good taste. You know, I, I've consumed a bunch of a bunch of all kinds of forms of art, but especially poetry. Like I'm, I've watched a bunch of poems. I've read, I've read so much poetry at this point. I'm obviously I haven't, you know, I'm not the most well read person in the, in the poetry genre, but I've read a bunch of stuff and I, I think the stuff that I like is pretty cool. So if I can read something that I wrote and be like, oh, I like that.

44:12 I I think, I think I'm entertaining the person I'm trying, I'm trying to, I'm trying to captivate right again. So, so this is, this is so pretentious, but but like I look at my old poems, not that I don't like them. I like them so much, but I can I'm like, clearly Neil at 25 wrote that, right? And Neil at 25 is cool. When he was doing, he was doing a cool thing and he was doing what he needed to do. But Neil, Neil now like how would Neil now write that poem? And then being, and I like tracking my progress that way where it's like, do I have literally just like if I, I'll do this sometimes as an exercise, I'll rewrite some of my old poems and just see how see how I would think about them now.

45:03 Like what are my new, what are my new moves? Like? What do I have like a new structure for a poem in my brain that I could take this old thing like this, this older poem about like feeling lonely on the road. Like how like would I write that? Would I write that now as as a Sistina where the the each of the repeated N words is all the name of like a fast food franchise that I'm driving by on the highway or something like that. Like so I I think that's I don't know that that's the main thing is like, do I do I still think of poems are cool? Like do I do I think that I'm performing better now than I used to because like I've been in every single one of my shows. I don't know anybody else has been in every single one of my shows, but like I have a pretty good like progress tracker in my head of like, Oh yeah, that's how, that's how I was doing shows at rock venues in 2017.

45:56 But like, I got a couple more moves now, like I've got, I've got, I've got crowd work. I know how to like I've got a whole like I've got a like a little like voice effect box that like lets me do like doubling and echo and like I use it all the time, but I can use it for flash if I want to. Like I've better understanding of like mic dynamics and stuff like that. So so it's just I'm literally just paying attention to the small stuff and be like, am I still learning? Am I still trying new things? Am I am I would I like this show if I was at it? I don't know. Does that make sense that I just said a bunch of words? I hope that. Yeah, no, for sure. Because I mean, at the end of the day, if you're, if you're not a fan of your own work and you're not enjoying it, I mean, what, what's the point?

46:40 You've got to have that locus of control within you to be like, to, to try and be your, your biggest fan. I suppose. I I, I've had so many interesting conversations with artists where there's this push and pull between like being understood or being accessible and I guess being true to your style. If it's a little bit more, if it's a little bit more abstract and not as as literal when it comes to storytelling. I mean, that's, that's still something I'm, I'm kind of working out, you know what, what side I want to fall on. So now that makes, that makes perfect sense. Yeah. I think I also, I feel really fortunate that my style just happens to be a little more literal and narrative. I've been, I've, I have been pushing myself to get a little weirder and take a couple of swings, but I'm also lucky enough to have editors who can pull me back when I'm getting maybe a little too weird.

47:32 You know, like there's there's a couple poems in the new book that are that I was really certain we're going to get a cut, right. There's one where like, I imagine it's, it's all a persona piece, but like from the perspective of like a coroner in 2130, something who is like who is, who is like doing an autopsy on my body. But I've lived forever and I've become a Cyborg, right? And so like that, that I was just like, I'm just going to, I'm just going to try something to see what happens. And I was really certain that that that was going to get cut. But but Michael, my editor, you loved it. They were just like, yeah, cool. This is a weird poem. Let's do it. So anyway, I think that's the other like, I again, feel fortunate that most of the time I'm pretty accessible. But but then when I take some swings, I have some people I can ask, Hey, is this is this dumb?

48:19 You know so. Good you got you got the brains trust you got the. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Trouble cancelled the thing, right? God. Oh, I'm going to leave. Yeah, but no. Yeah, for sure. Wonderful. I think we're ready for piece #2 Aneal. If you wanted to set the stage for this one, I. Would love to. So this poem, I don't know. No, I do know why. I was going to say I don't know why this poem is really connecting with me, but I know why. The first time I've ever performed, I performed it memorized was at this poetry tournament in Minnesota. I just did the Midwest poetry mashup. Shout out Ali, Tanisha and Zach, the organizers of the Midwest poetry mashup. I So anyway, this poem, this poem is, it's about Taco Bell, but it's actually an ode to being in your 30s and being settled and a little more a little more stable. I don't think you'll have Taco Bell, but Taco Bell it's sort of legendary at this point anyway.

49:21 We do have it actually, but it's not doing very well over here. It's fun, so it might not be if much longer. Well, I think honestly, I think it mostly, it mostly like it works in the American context because it's like people like, Oh, it's not real Mexican food. I'm like, no, it's Taco Bell. But because we have like we have so much cultural reference with Mexican food and with Tex Mex that like something being that adjacent and quick and fast and cheap really works. Anyway, whatever I this poem's about. This poem's about Taco Bell but not really. It's called self-portrait AS2 bean burritos and a cheese quesadilla. I'm trying to come up with more creative ways to respond when people ask me how old I am.

50:08 Old enough to know better but not enough to do better. My AIM away message was a no FX quote. Seriously it was kill the pain. Integrity don't keep you warm and sane. Anyway, how about I'm the age where I don't eat the meat from Taco Bell anymore? Not just because of factory farms and being a responsible person in the world, although yes that, but mostly because I'm already spending the maximum amount of time in the bathroom allowable by my marriage. Shut up. I don't need to see a doctor. It's just the only room where I can be naked and alone and legally no one can open the door without asking. Shut up, I don't need to be alone because I'm depressed. I want to be alone because these days I'm pretty good company. OK, so self-portrait as my Taco Bell order a thing that does its job and is then forgotten. 2 burritos and a quesadilla. Shows up to the party with a six pack and a tool belt. Fixes the garbage grinder.

51:17 Doesn't drink your beer, leaves before things get weird. self-portrait as getting to go to bed at 9:30 because tomorrow's going to be pretty rad and I want to be awake for it. Self-portrait is taking a bunch of ibuprofen because I don't drink anymore and I can redo distribute the ways I'm bad to my liver. self-portrait as no more bike rides through thunderstorms to the booty because the booty is snoring right next to me. No more bad weeks, only bad days. No SOS is in gasoline on the lawn, No bathroom scale, no long glares in the mirror. No more hurting myself except to make it hurt less next time. Self-portrait in the Taco Bell drive through Tuesday night. Just one trivia back hurts in park, windows down, sleep only 45 minutes away waiting my turn.

52:21 You're so stupid. No, I loved it. I loved it. I. Loved it, thank you. To, to the Taco Bell thing, yeah, we'll, we'll see where, where it is in Australia in five years. But yeah, there there's some local alternatives which have popped up. Like I don't know if you if we had Guzmani Gomez over here when you were last over here, but that, that's more like when people think Mexican food, that's more the chain they think of. So hell yeah, yeah. It's very competitive. Honestly. Honestly, take them down forever. Like, I don't like, Taco Bell doesn't need to exist in the world. And if it burst into flames tomorrow, I'd be thrilled, you know? But like, But it's a cultural touchstone, and it's the one that I used for this particular thing. Of course. Of course. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I've been submitted that poem to. There's a literary magazine called Taco Bell Quarterly, which started off as just a joke by the folks that run the Paris Review, but now it's actually become, like, wildly popular. So, you know, fingers crossed I get into Taco Bell Quarterly. So good.

53:18 No, no, very, very nice. Neil, I'm wondering if you can take us behind the the curtain now. I do love talking about each artist's creative process as much as we can have words for it. Do you have any thoughts on or reflections on how exactly you kind of put together a finished piece? Yeah, for sure. These days. These days the process is actually like pretty. It's pretty well defined. In the past I would have told you like, I don't know, I just wait for the inspiration to show up and I would have had like a very long winded answer. But these days it's so for the past five years, since 2020, I've been running a online writing workshop.

54:01 Shout out also it's called my writing circle. It's all on my website. If you're interested in coming. It's every single Wednesday for y'all, It's it, it'd be Tuesday for me. It's Wednesday at 8:00 PM, which means for y'all, it's like Tuesday at about 10:00 or 11:00 AM, depending on what I mean Thursday, Sorry for for y'all, It's it's, it's you're behind, but it's tomorrow. You know what I mean? Time zones are weird. It, we do it every single, every single Wednesday night and I give writing prompts and then we have structured writing time and then we just do an open mic of the poems that we just wrote. So it's, it's been this cool community that I've sort of accidentally started. You know, I thought I was going to run like 2 workshops in 2020 because I was bored and stuck in my house and then people loved it and the community stuck around. So, so so for me, the process is literally like at least at least once a week, I sit down at my, I sit down at my desk and with my friends, I write 2 poems and I usually write more than that. I'll write some during the week or just like when something jumps out and inspires me.

55:01 But I'm a firm believer that like, you need to, even when you're not feeling, when you don't get that lightning bolt of inspiration, you still need to sit down and produce something. Because who knows? Maybe after you work through four or five lines, your brain will kick in and be like, oh, actually I needed to talk about this, right? That that's been, that's how every first draft has been produced. I always write poems. I write prose on the keyboard, but I write poems by hand. At least the first draft. I think there's I, I just like that separation in my head. So I write first drafts usually with my writing circle and then I let him, I let the first draft sit for a couple weeks usually. And then the next draft of it is when I type it up out of my notebook.

55:44 And there's an editing process that occurs while I'm typing it up right? Where like some, you know, something I wrote down won't make sense or I'll just notice like, oh, there should be more here. And then I write 3 or 4 lines while typing it. And that's, that's the second draft of the poem. The third draft of the poem is normally when I put it in front of an audience. And thankfully audiences have been coming back these days. I've been going to a lot of open mics here. I started running the poetry slam over in Raleigh. So like I have like people that I put the poem in front of because audiences are great editors, right? You, if you're, if you're paying attention, you learn how to read a room. You can really see what parts of your poems. Like you can pick out the two or three parts of your poems that people react to. I like to perform new poems on paper so that when I see those reactions, I can make little.

56:28 I literally have a pen with me and I'll make little some marks either on stage or right when I get off stage because it's like, OK, these are the three parts that are really working for people. I saw people tune out for 20 seconds of this section. I can cut. Like, it seemed like the energy was building in this part and it could have gone farther. So I'm going to add more here, you know? And that's that that's partially a function of experience is just having been in front of audiences for the last 1516 years and learning how to read their responses, right. So that's that's the process for most poems. And then if something is going to be a piece that I know I want to perform that's good or that like we want to do a specific like video project with or that I know is going to be like, for lack of their term, like one of the singles of the next book that we really want to work on.

57:20 Then I'll bring it to, I'll bring it to the people that I really trust to edit my wife for my editor, Michael, Michael Melekide, who I've mentioned a couple times, or, or Tanisha from Button Poetry, or like the folks that like I've worked with and that like we really, we have a rapport, right? And so then we'll just go through probably another 3 or 4 drafts, just really tweaking stuff. You know, at that point, I've done most of the work, but this is like that's, that's the really fine edit of, hey, this, this, this one line, the wording isn't, really isn't really there. Can you just, and I'll do 3 or 4 versions of that. You know, I, I feel like that was pretty detailed, but I feel like that's, that's, that's some, a good amount of information.

58:01 Well, it, it's, I mean, to me that was very much like one of the more, yeah, one of the more in depth and professional processes I've heard. Obviously you are so experienced at this stage. It, it, it sounds very communal, Neil. You know, the fact that you're especially when you first take it to the stage and like you said, you're you're reading the room, you're honing in on, on, on the highs and lows and and that data, if you like, is is, you know, invaluable to us as slam poets. Yeah, Totally. Yeah. Absolutely worth taking on board. Absolutely worth taking on board. It's it also I, I like, so there's one open mic that happens every two weeks. It's like really close to our house. There's a few folks that show up to it that have really expressive faces.

58:47 And so they don't know that they're big editors of my poems, but like, I'll, I'll bring new poems to that open mic and I'll, I'll watch like specifically, I watch like Evelyn and, and Joe like a lot and just be like, OK, what, what are Evelyn and Joe like? And, and like, what are they, what are they not like? What are they, what are they Look in a way. So anyway, yeah, it's, I don't know, maybe some people produce things in a vacuum, but I've always, I've always needed other folks to, to really, to really Polish my work especially. Yeah, so it sounds like you've got, you've picked out a few people to be your tuning forks, so to speak for sure. And I'm sure that if, you know, if an idea wasn't 100% working or, or needed, needed some perspective or needed a little push, like there was something there, but it needed a little push, then that again, that feedback is invaluable of, of getting over that hump and, and you know, maybe producing something that you wouldn't have otherwise without a little bit of encouragement or, you know, a word here or there. Yeah, 100%.

59:49 And and also, I think the other major tool that's been helpful for me is knowing when a poem might never work and having the having the, the humility. And the understanding of myself that like, I might really like want this concept to work, but people are getting it and they're, and they're maybe they're not gonna. So we could just walk away and, and trust that like there will be other poems. So like there's other stuff I could work on and that like if this and then like this one concept, it's, you know, it's just not it. I just don't know how to accurately express myself right now. So in a few years I'm going to come back to this and it's going to be a hip. But right now I don't. I don't got it in my brain yet. Yeah, it's not the end of the world. And often ideas, you know, if if they have to kind of disperse, like they'll they'll come back in some other form and and maybe a little bit better then yeah.

1:00:36 Yeah, dude. Great. Now thanks for your reflections. Now in your in your writer's bio, it says that you actually have a preferred stage entrance music, which it says is is Bruce Springsteen's fantastic hit Born to Run. Do you have a particular like affinity with this song or is it more of a meme? Because I know that you like to walk up very slowly while the The thing is playing and, and I'm just curious like who who are the artists, you know, the musicians, the poets or otherwise who you feel have influenced you the most and kind of formed part of the soup that you're at work comes from. For sure. I mean, the, the Springsteen joke in my bio is, is kind of a joke, but I do Born to run is one of my walk up songs, right? Like I, I have like I have a rotation of like 5 or 6 songs that like if, if I get to choose what's playing on the stereo as I walk up, it's Springsteen's Born to run is the big one. There's a misfit song, We are 138 that I like a lot that I'll I'll roll up to sometimes.

1:01:40 But honestly, my favorite thing to do is a walk up song. I'm getting to the other thing in a second. But my favorite thing, my favorite thing to do is a walk up song is just like pick a musician from the place I'm doing a show in and like, like for instance, in Chicago, there's this, there's there's this song, there's that. It's one of my favorite songs ever and nobody's ever heard of it. I'm so I'm so special and unique. It's called, it's called Lakeshore Drive and it's by this jazz trio called Aliota James, Aliota Haynes Jeremiah. And it's just about this road, Lakeshore Drive that everybody in Chicago drives, right? It's this like it's this locally famous little Rd.

1:02:20 And Lakeshore Drive is like this perfect nostalgic thing. When you drive on Lakeshore, it feels, it just feels it. You feel, you feel good, right? And so every time I do a Chicago, I'll bust out Lake Shore Drive and everybody's like, how do you know about that, right. And so then it's a conversation starter. It gets people like it's done so much work for me as an artist. Because like, I feel like when, when you get on stage, like any, any poet, you got to convince the audience that what you have to say is going to be worth their time and that you're taking care of them, that you've thought of them, right? And so if I can do that before I even hit the stage with a song selection, then like then I've I've already made my job easier for myself. You're speaking their language, if you like, yeah. 100% it literally really, maybe some friends, you know, like I did a show in Lansing, MI and picked, there's a really obscure like punk band called Cheap Girls from Lansing, MI and I picked their song Gone All Summer, right? And like when I got off stage, the venue manager was like, how do you know about the band I used to be in? And I was like, yeah, I was like, I love him, dude. And then turns out like he's the tour manager for a band called The Menzingers that I love.

1:03:28 And they were like coming through here on tour with a band called Lucero that I love. And. And, you know, they're playing like 15 minutes from my house and Scott put me on the list and now Scott's my dude, right? Anyway, yeah. Speaking their language. So folks have been really influential on me. Springsteen, definitely. Because, I mean, I look like this. So obviously I like Springsteen. But specifically, the thing that has been really that really works for me and that I learned from Springsteen is a thing that then influenced other artists I like a lot. Like another one of my favorite bands is a band called The Gaslight Anthem. And they both do this thing where they'll they'll reuse names or motifs or lines from from songs. And in reusing them as their career progresses and as they presumably mature as people, you get more of a back story if you're paying attention, right?

1:04:20 It's almost like an Easter egg for the listener where you're like. A bit of law. Yeah, exactly. And so it made me that specific move made me think of my career or like my work as not just like this is a poem and this is a poem and this is a book. It's like it's all, it made me think of my work as like all 11 body of work that is all speaking with each other because it was gonna whether or not I decided it would. So I might as well think about that as an intentional tool, right. That's been a big one. I mean, one of my other favorite musicians, his name is John Darnielle, his band called the Mountain Goats, one of my favorite bands, very writerly, very OK.

1:05:03 There's three things that I've learned a bunch from John Darnielle 1. Is he just. He just writes. He just puts out stuff. And some of the records, every song might not be perfect, but some of the songs are hits and even the imperfect songs still have things in them that you can dig into if you want, right? So that's one thing. Another thing is he's not afraid to be weird and just like write like one of my favorite songs by JD is called Sax romer #1 Sax Romer was like a pulp like crime novelist from like the 20s who wrote like just by all reports, like God awful crime novels. But like it was, I'm sure it was just some stuff. It was like there were a couple Sax Romer novels that happened to be on like on a bookshelf in his childhood home. And he was like, I remember that. Let me dig into sax Romer.

1:05:56 And then he learned some stuff and wrote a song about it, you know, so like it, like he's really made me feel not afraid to just take some swings and see what happens, you know? And like, some of them aren't going to work and some of them are going to get cut or they're not going to make the record. But like some some of the some of the stuff you end up producing when you just write about whatever your weird obsession is right now, like that's it ends up being hits, man. John O'Neill said in an interview once that somebody asked him they were like, hey, it seems like you don't listen to music in the genre that you write in, right? Like that, that feel 'cause he writes very like singer-songwriter Y stuff. It's like it's full band, very lyrical lot like very like acoustic guitar driven type of thing.

1:06:40 But like most of what he listens to is either like opera or classical music or like really big atmospheric metal bands, right? And they were like, so how the hell? And, and he was, and he was like, I don't know, it's just his, his response was so nonchalant where he was just like, I don't feel any pressure to, to, to listen to things in my genre because I don't, I don't want to. It's just not what I want to listen to. And it like, that made me feel really freeing that like, no, I don't like, I like reading poetry and I read a bunch of it, but like, I, but it made, it made me feel really free to like pay attention to all kinds of genres of art and like, take inspiration and moves from, from everything and not just like other poems, you know?

1:07:23 And, and, and that not only is that a, is that OK to do that you actually learn so much more by watching movies or even, or even like reading poems in genres and styles that you actively dislike and like trying to pull some stuff. Like, I don't, I'm really not into generally, you know, like really abstract poems. I need a little bit of narrative to hang on to because I got to know what the hell we're talking about and why you wanted to write this poem, right? But I've been trying to read poems that are entirely abstraction and be like, why do other people like this? What can I get out of this that they're enjoying? I've said a bunch. Of words it keeps, It keeps you sharp. I suppose you know experiments with different inputs, yeah? Well, and like it just, I don't know, I feel like it helps me again, take chances and, and make and, and make some choices that I might not have otherwise made because I saw Dario Argento do this weird thing in Suspiria and I'm like, how do I replicate this in a poem?

1:08:22 And that poem sucked and didn't work out, but I'm glad I tried it, you know? And on the note of, you know, people who've I guess inspired you, people who, you know, you, you wouldn't be able to do what you're doing now without them, I suppose you've told me that you actually have a little podcast project that you're working on around these kind of things. Can you tell us about that? Yeah, so, so my publisher, Button Poetry and I were working on a, an interview series. I don't, I don't know that we're calling it a podcast yet. I don't know what the hell it is yet. We're calling the interview series so far, but we're calling it. Couldn't have done it without you. And I interview a bunch of people that have influenced me in, in any way, right, That have influenced my, my professional career, whether it's, you know, obviously I'm going to be talking to a lot of poets, but I've interviewed some musicians and comedians.

1:09:15 I pulled up, I sent a sent an e-mail to my geography professor from college who was very surprised to be hearing from me. But I was like, Hey, I took AI, took a geography information system class from, you know, a GIS class from you like, and it really made me think about how to think spatially about any kind of information. And, and she was like kind of shocked that I want to talk to her. But anyway, so like, you know, I interviewed some of my old professors. I interviewed Nick Flynn, one of my favorite poets. I interviewed Liz Stokes from lead singer of the Beths. I interviewed some of my friends, the ballroom thieves and bad, bad hats, some bands from from America. I, I've been, I've been just trying to, just trying to interview anybody that's, that's been influential on me. And then I take like a little moment where I'm like a little corny and I'm like, hey, also thank you. Like I wrote, if I can get super granular, like I wrote this poem because of you or like with my friends, the ballroom thieves. I'm like, hey, early on in my career, my train from Boston got messed up and I was really cold that night and y'all just let me hang out in your house even though you didn't have to. So like, thanks for doing that.

1:10:18 I would have died in Boston. You know, So it's just, it's, it's half professional interview and half just like maybe like, thanks for, thanks for helping me. I love you. Yeah, what a great idea. It that almost it it it's almost a little bit similar to the idea that was kind of a, you know, progenitor, I suppose, to what this podcast became where at one point I was thinking, do I want to start a podcast where I'm literally just like talking to my friends and introducing them to the world because I love them and I think they're cool. So yeah. Oh, looking forward to to hearing more about it. You can watch. My, my social media for it or it'll, it'll be on my website, neilhillborn.com. And honestly, if anything, watch buttons social media.

1:11:00 They're way better about it than I am because Instagram makes me sad these days. And I'm just not trying to do stuff that makes me sad as much, you know? Yeah, it's it's a slug. I don't feel like I'm cut out for it. I don't know. I'll, I'll find someone else who can do it for me as soon as I can. I think. Do you have any other thoughts? I, I mean, Neil, you know, it's, it's obvious that you, you know, you, you've reached a, a level of, I guess exposure and experience that, that very few, you know, slam poets reach. And I'm just wondering that that platform that you have that popularity you have, do you feel like a sense of, I guess responsibility to kind of wear that well and and make the most of it?

1:11:41 Oh, 1000% And I've been, I, I, I feel like especially now in the, the place I'm at in my career, I really want to teach other people the stuff that I've learned. You know, I've just, I've just been I, I don't want to use the word mentor because I don't feel totally capable of claiming that yet, but I, I definitely, I don't know, I'm in a place where not only like I have, I learned a bunch of stuff in in the poacher world, but like, but I feel I feel pretty stable. Both, not both like financially, mentally, emotionally like, and I feel as though I'm I can give to some other folks. Some examples are like at this, the poacher tournament.

1:12:24 I just went to the Midwest poetry mash up. There were two different teams that like came from my writing circle that I do every every week, right? It's like when when this tournament started three years ago, I just kind of casually said to said to the group like, hey, this thing's happening in Minneapolis. If you all want to put together A-Team and go, I'll kick in the registration. I'll help you out at some poems, right? Thinking that like people from Minneapolis and Wisconsin and Chicago would go right. But but like, I of course forget that poets will take any excuse to hang out with each other. And so, so, so the team was composed of two Canadians, one person from the UK and one person from Portland, OR right. But since then, like there's, you know, a team has gone every year.

1:13:10 This team, two teams went and I've tried to like help edit their poems and give them performance notes and like do coaching stuff and just like bring them into the world as much as possible because like it with poetry tournaments coming back, like button is filming at these poetry tournaments and like, at least that's, that's how I, you know, that's how I got a career is by just doing poems at these tournaments and getting getting exposure that way. And so I'm like, well, there's poets that I know that I really like whose work people people like need to see and who's working will be helpful out in the world. So like a thing I can do to help that get out of the world is edit it and help them figure out how to perform it. I would say like I, I do feel a certain sense of responsibility to like to give other folks a leg up in, in the world.

1:13:55 Not that I can like, you know, make choices or make things go viral, but but I can at least like help give, show people the path that I took to get to a point where a poem could potentially go viral and launch a career. Yeah, people might describe it as like, you know, sharing your power or sharing your space or whatever that, yeah, it's the next generation, yeah. Yeah. And I think that like, you know, we just talked about social media and like there, you know, there's a certain amount that sharing things on social media can do. But like, ultimately, I don't know, just as, as the way that I have used social media in the past, Like I'm not, I, I am not reliably going to connect with every single thing that comes across my feeds. Like, you know, if I, if I get, if I like share somebody's poem on Instagram, that helps a little bit. But I think what really helped is like giving people, giving people the same information education that I got that helps me get to this point.

1:14:52 Yeah, now, well said. Well said. So as we as we kind of get to the pointy end of our time together today, Neil, what's Yeah, what's next for you? So you know what, what projects are you kind of working on in this in this season? Obviously we're we're you know, the new book about time has been out for a while. What are you working on? You've mentioned the podcast, you've mentioned running slams locally, like where, where you're kind of based now. Was there anything else? Yeah, I mean, I'm working on the next book. What's what's what was really cool about this process of writing About Time is that like with with the process I've described to you, I've been the most prolific I've ever been in my career. And so when I turned in the main script of About Time, it was like 200 something pages, right?

1:15:44 Because because button asked for it, they were like, give us as much as you want and we'll cut it down. And I was like, OK, great. Here's everything I got because I've just been, I've been writing so much, right? So a bunch of the bunch of the poems that didn't make this manuscript, I've been editing and revising to go in the next one. We're looking at 2026 to release, to release the next book. And then in, in theory, if I can keep up this pace, which I feel pretty good about, like we'll be just putting out a book every year and a half to two years. So that's, that's, that's a big thing That's very important. Yeah, it's, it's, I mean, you know, especially given my previous pace, God damn. But I got, I got my meds working and I'm happy and stable and, and I got a writing group. I can't stress the, the importance of a writing group enough if even.

1:16:32 And it doesn't have to be a formalized thing like like I've been doing, just like you and four of your friends. You just hang out every Tuesday and show each other your poems, you know? But there's something about that community of people that really motivates everybody to to keep producing stuff. So yeah, next book, I don't know what the title is yet, but I suck at titling my own stuff. I usually try to trick my friends into doing it. Is it going to be like that was quick or something like that? Short time yeah I don't know dude it's it's gonna that one that title came out of nowhere normally like normally I title a book after a poem that's in it or like I pull a line from out of a book and that one I that one just like I just sent button 30 different. I just brainstormed 30 different titles and Tanisha was like, I like about time.

1:17:23 I'm like me too, let's go. But so yeah, working on the next book. I'm going to be developing the the Raleigh poetry slam. We've done, we've done three of them so far. We started in February and we're just doing a monthly, a monthly slam at at a spot called Blackbird Books and Coffee in Raleigh, NC Shout out Blackbird, their cool indie bookstore run by some awesome folks. And it's been, it's been going great so far. I thought nobody would come, but we've sold out every single event so far. And the poets have been the poets have been really excellent. The crowds have been super hype. I think that like the spoken word seen here is already already really cool And and there wasn't really a a frequent like monthly poetry slam, the kind of like I really came up in in the Twin Cities.

1:18:13 And so I wanted to, again, wanted to give that to other folks because that's what, that's what helps me, you know. And so I'm really excited to, to develop that and, and help develop the, the scene here with, with an eye toward like there's, there's regional poetry tournaments popping up are like little poetry festivals. And I've got got a location in a small town, it's kind of near here that's like a old biodiesel plant that says like, we can camp there and use all their venues and stuff. So I'm like, why not? Why not just run a poetry festival? You know? So I, I think there's so much talent and so much desire for poetry events here that I'm like, well, if nobody else is doing it, it's going to be me. So, so yeah, focusing on that, putting out the new book, doing a few more shows. I don't know, I don't want to tour like I used to because it made my back hurt.

1:18:59 But like, I'd love to, I'd love to make it back to the UK and, and Australia and like I've been to Canada and forever. I'd love to, to at least do a few Canadian shows, You know, just like I just want to, I just want to do old man touring where I just like fly in for a few days and then I just like, I have all of my books in the little suitcase and I just show up and I, I have my feelings and then I fly away. Little Irish goodbye at the end there. Yeah, just bye. Thanks for your poutine. I'm out of here. Very nice, very nice. Oh, that's good, mate. It sounds like you got a lot of irons in the fire, as they say. And you're, yeah, you're getting involved in, in local community, which I'm, I'm sure, yeah, they're grateful for, for the growth that's happening there.

1:19:44 We now turn our attention to the overarching analogy that we've had for Season 2, which is, Neil, if your, if your creative work was an instrument in a creative orchestra, what instrument do you think it would be? Where? Where do you fit in this in this cacophony of sound? Hell yeah. I think maybe this isn't what it is, but what I'd like it to be and how how I think of it is as a as a trumpet, right where it's a thing that like can do solos and like can be in the spotlight and have some attention given to it. But mostly it's like it's a baseline. It helps out the other stuff. It it, it adds to the overall work rather than taking all of the attention out of it.

1:20:32 Like it, it might be an eye-catching thing, but like also, it's not a saxophone, you know what I mean? It's not like it's not like a violin. It's not the stuff that like really gets. I don't know. And maybe I should go to more therapy. But like, I don't think of myself as like even I don't think of myself as the most talented or the most the most incredible poet out here doing things. But like, I've learned some stuff, I got some chops. I can, I can do some solos. You know, nobody's talking about first chair trumpet, right? People Trumpet. Solo, yeah. Yeah, right. So that that's that's that's what I think. Correct me if I'm wrong. No, that's good. That's good. I think. I think we need a few Trumpeteers. So you'll you'll fit in.

1:21:12 You'll fit in very nicely there. I like that this orchestra is kind of filling out. I think we've got several pianists now. So there's there's going to be a fight for parts there. So yeah, when we when we get new instruments in, that's good. Now to the the segment of the show shamelessly ripped off of a diary of a CEOI call it Diary of a POET. You've been left a question from my previous guest. So Josh Cake asks what what snacks are part of your creative process? Neil? What are you? What are you chewing on literally while you chew on metaphorically your work? Hell yeah. I like spicy stuff. I, I just, I like when food fights back, you know? So there's I, I like, I like a spicy trail mix. I like honestly, the thing that's that I've been doing most recently is my neighbors have been making a bunch of hot sauce.

1:22:09 We live out in the country in, in North Carolina and we like, we like our neighbors a whole bunch. So we trade like, we trade like pet sitting and you know, they're, they're, we're, we're developing a hobby farm. So like we're going to be giving them produce in the future, but for now, like their garden is like totally going. They grow a bunch of Peppers. And so, so they, they, they experiment hot sauces on us. And so honestly, frequently my writing snack is I just take a bunch of their hot sauce. I got those, I got some like, you know, little silver ramekins. Like you get like you get in, in restaurants. I just put the hot sauce in there and I just dip whatever I got in there. You know, normally it's just like some chips or crackers or whatever. But, but sometimes I'm like, all right, I have carrots. I'm eating hot sauce and carrots today. I like, I like to eat stuff that's like a little bit lighter.

1:22:54 Still is is fueling, but doesn't make me want to take a nap. You know, and, and you know, hot sauce just, and just gets your brain moving a little bit more. So yeah, you have to, you have to pay attention. You don't want to be, you know, you have to keep your hands clean. You don't want to be wiping your eyes while you've got it on your fingers and stuff like that. So you are exactly correct. So yeah, spicy stuff, dude, that's what I mean. I'm with you there. Do you reckon we need to get some like poets on Hot Ones? Or should we have like a poet's version of Hot Ones maybe? I would honestly, I would love it. I OK, All right, low key, low key. I was, I was almost on the Hot Ones. It was like, it was really close to happening. Like there was a period of time where like OCD had blown up. I was already into Hot Ones and the the I was about the level of fame as the folks they had on the show, right? And we had me scheduled out a little bit later because of like my touring schedule and their filming schedule. And then they really blew up and suddenly they were getting like way higher their caliber folks.

1:23:55 And they were like, you understand, And I was like, I understand. I'm bummed out, but I get it right. But there yeah, I was, I was, I was this close. But yeah, it's I I think it'd be great. Like do poems, but eat progressively hotter and hotter hot sauces. And like, how do you get through? How do you how do you get through your most emotional work when you're like in a great deal of physical pain? I I'm, I'm into it. Yeah. I'm going to write that down as an idea for a show. Excuse me? Yeah, please do. Please do that. That's a freebie. Can you operate, you know, at the edge of of physical distress while while while doing your work? Yeah. Oh, I'm so sorry to hear it. It didn't happen, but you know. You know, lots of stuff doesn't work out. I'm sure one day we we will get some representation on something like that or maybe you know, chicken shop date or something like that.

1:24:48 Is it, Is it Amelia or whatever? Whoever hosts that anyway. Very good. Neil, you now have the the responsibility of leaving a question for my next guest, unbeknownst to who they are. So what are you thinking? I'm thinking, OK, this is a question I've been asking. I've been asking folks in interviews a lot recently and I think it's evoked the the range of responses has been really interesting. So I want you to think about your, your entire career, the your, your whole Uvra. If somebody were soundtracking it as though it were a movie, who's who's soundtracking that? What does it sound like Some people have come up with like, you know, it's, it sounds like a Western. It's Enrico Marconi or like some people have said, I, some people have been like Kendrick Lamar, give me Kendrick Lamar, right. So who's who's?

1:25:35 Who's writing the soundtrack to your movie? Of your work or your biopic? You choose. I like it. Have you had anyone you know do the the the Hans Zimmer? It's just a series of bombs. No, right, I honestly, that'd be that'd be cool as hell. That should be my answer. It's there's also there's also a fun. This is just, I don't cut this or not, but like a, a fun game. Like one of the questions I always ask people, right, is like in the biopic of your life, what's the song that plays as the credits start to roll? Like, like what's the, what's the needle drop? You know, I my joke, but also serious answer is the song walk of life by Dire Straits, because literally, literally, it works at the end of every single movie. Think about it like if you're watching a movie, when you get to the end credits, mute it and put on Walk of Life and it will work. It's a great, it's a great keyboard riff. So, you know, I'm sure I can get behind that. Oh, that's such a cool question.

1:26:30 I'm, I'm so looking forward to, to pitching that to, to my next guest. Thank you. Neil, if if people are hearing from you for the first time they today and they want to find out more about you, where are the best spaces for them to go to, to follow your work and what you're up to? Yeah, my, I mean the most information's on my website, justneilhillborn.com. I follow my, I mean, you can follow me on Facebook, which seems like an insane thing to say, but that's the thing. That's the thing that gets most consistently updated. You can follow my Instagrams. Just Neelicorn, Neelicorn like like I'm a Unicorn because I made it in 2010 and I or 11 or whatever and I thought I was really funny.

1:27:12 Those are the main spaces right now. Also, honestly, you can follow my publisher Button Poetry. They're not only do they and you can follow them on literally whatever platform you want. Not only do they promote my stuff, they promote a lot of people that I really that I really like and believe in. And I think they're they're doing a bunch of cool work, not just with poetry, but with with a bunch of different genres and they're doing a lot of like, anyway, follow those places and button Poetry. That's what I think. Those things as well as your latest book out through button poetry about time. So grab your copy using the link in the description. Neil, you've got one more piece you're going to leave with us before we say goodbye. What can you tell us about this one? I do so this is this is a poem out of my book. This is.

1:28:04 I don't know, man. I've just been trying to be joyful these days because so much good thing to be. Yeah and like. So much in the world and you know. I'm in America. America is in a particularly bad place, but hasn't it been for hundreds and hundreds of years? You know, I'm trying to be joyful and happy. And this poem in particular, this is this is almost a nostalgic poem, but I think it really reminds me of like the the ways in which especially especially men, but like, but anybody can, the ways in which like friendship and supporting one another can, can be so can be so simple and like, doesn't we make it super complicated as adult? It doesn't have to be.

1:28:47 So this is this is a poem about rollerblading with my best friend Jeff when I was 12, you know, maybe 13. I was 13. This, this poem about rollerblading with Jeff. This is called Ed White Elementary, Seabrook, TX summer. It's 2002. Oh, side note, this poem starts with an Enise Mojgani quote. I mentioned Enise earlier in this poem. Here am I. He's got a line 13 and alive. So I just want to shout that out because anybody that hears it, they'll be like, Neil, you stole that line. I didn't steal it. I'm referencing it. OK. It's not It's 2025. It's not theft if you cite your sources. All right. Ed White Elementary, Seabrook, TX, summer. It's 2002.

1:29:29 I'm 13 and alive, and I just landed A10 stair gap on my rollerblades. Yes, I know rollerblades. Skateboarding is hard. Jeff and I are. Jeff and I are out behind the elementary school where there lives the sketchiest staircase in Harris County. Cracked concrete poorly patched with tar at the top, pitted asphalt strewn with gravel at the bottom. I'm skating harder than I need to 'cause if I'm going to get hurt, I should get really hurt. I think a 540 is the one where you land backward. Or at least I landed backward facing the stairs. Absolutely stomped it first try.

1:30:12 13 years old out there dropping hammers in Manu Solomon's. I'm going to be whoever is the whoever. I'm going to be the next whoever is a famous rollerblader. I'm going to have a future containing 10s of dollars. I've spin back around and there's Jeff skating toward me. No rips in his jeans. Not yet, anyway. He wants a high 5. His arms are full of flowers. So good. So good. Thank you. Really, really paints such a a vivid picture of of. A of. A nice experience, I suppose. Like you said, you're, you're trying to be joyful. So that's what it evokes.

1:30:53 Yeah. So many of the so many of the poems in this book started with. In my favorite memory, right. And like, so I had like 7 or 8 poems that all started in my favorite memory and it didn't work out for for some stupid reasons. I'll probably use it in the next book, honestly, but that was one of them. Whereas like in my favorite memory, it's 2002 and 13 alive. And yeah, in a childhood that kind of really sucked. I was trying to pick out the good parts, you know, so good. Well, that's yeah, that's one of them. Neil Hilborn. I'm. I'm so grateful I got to speak to you. I you know, I kind of reached out to you as a little bit of a Hail Mary saying, oh, this will be a laugh if if Neil Buddy Hilborn comes on and and, and here you are.

1:31:35 So thank you so much for for thinking with us and for slamming with us today. Absolutely. This was this was such a pleasure. Thank you So. Much for having me and you're doing a really cool thing here. Oh, thanks mate. Appreciate it. Absolutely. Thank you.