Matcho Makata - Expression Is a Lifeline, Not a Luxury

0:00 Slam poetry doesn't care if it's perfect. It's time to slam. It's the biggest poem I've got inside of her. She was a thief. You love me to love a haunted house. Yelling, angry blood black nothingness began to spin this day. I hate pork chops. I am the master of my thing. I am the captain of myself. Splashing down like the crew of Artemis 2. It's I think therefore I slam the podcast bringing you the best spoken word and slam poetry artists from Australia and beyond. My name is Andrew Rogerson as always and with me today I have an actor, writer, performance poet, dance teacher, community leader, theatre producer, movement enthusiast, event manager, previous publisher and creative director of Soul Lounge Adelaide, previous event organizer of Soul Lounge Numb and director of Soul Lounge Australia. My The Best is known for poems that focus on exploring identity, incorporating A bilingual approach to rhythm. Their poetry can be a sensory adventure, weaving thought provoking imagery with cadence through a whimsical, empowering performance.

1:14 Whether it's hurt, identity, happiness, artistry, addiction or bringing to light unseen issues of people of colour. Macho Makata, welcome on. Hey, thanks for having me. It's great to be here. There is a sense of anticipation somewhat because I know you're coming to me live from one of Adelaide's universities and maybe one of the the rooms that could be barged in by students at any point. Is that right? Yeah, possibly, but it's uni break at the moment so chances are like 5050. Fair enough. I'll take the emails. What happens? Never tell me. We'll, we'll see what happens. Macho. Let's jump into things, shall we? We are all super keen to hear your first piece.

1:54 I'm going to give you the floor. You're welcome to give it a little bit of an intro or let it speak for itself. Whatever you want to do, my friend. OK, let's just go into it. Sometimes I wonder. I wonder where my homeland is. Is it here or there or somewhere in between? But I only wonder sometimes. I know that bridging the gap can only be crossed by those that are inherited, but for me, I struggled to hold on to that heritage, the ideas that most of us are blessed with. The comfort of not feeling like I'm meant to be somewhere else when I'm here. Realizing that thousands of miles away adaptations go straight or goes on between homes is unknown to most of the feelings I felt growing up was a fear of not knowing myself. See as a child I never felt more outside the box. Not being able to tick when it came to 1 ethnicity, they thought that 2 was a lot.

2:39 Not being able to cope. No matter which side of the globe I was on, only half of me was accepted. Only half of me was accepted. See I've always fallen within the cracks of the land I stand in. Not knowing if I belong anywhere. Not until I realized I'll need anyone to accept me for the land is what gives acceptance. My home is where I've been inherited, like the current of the Seas pushes the water between the lands and my feet as I look into the horizon, trying to find a reflection in the sea, trying to sculpt my homeland while I'm standing on the beach, I don't realize that I'm already there. Thank you. Beautiful mate. Well, you know, there may have been a time when you felt only half of you was accepted, but you're 100% accepted here on the pod, my friend.

3:24 I want to know about how things first started for you, Macho. So like, how did you begin to have the courage to not only create but also share your work with others? I think about my beginnings as as dance, dance being my first way to be able to to speak because like as a kid, I was very much immune, very much some somebody that just wasn't able to say things, wasn't able to express myself. Shy, introverted, call it what you want to call it. I found dance to be a way that I could actually push what I was feeling and thinking out into the real world. In many ways. The first dance I really took upon was Crump, and that was a language in itself.

4:09 All the moves were were like words. And yeah, I got really into that. And that's what kind of made me more confident as a person as well as like more responsible to understand how everything that affects you can affect other people and how, like, you can create connections in communities of people where you can teach people dance on the street, you can teach people dance in community centers and warehouses. And I eventually taught dancing in prisons for juvenile kids. Wow. I really got into doing that. But it felt like I I wanted to say things more.

4:51 And I used to freestyle in Cypher's with my friends. And one of my friends, he's a rapper. He's been putting out albums for years. And he was like telling me that my style is spoken word. And I was like, what is spoken word? And he's like, yeah, spoken word be. You should come check out this event. And he took me to an event called Dithrambia, which was run by Charlie Brooks at the time. And they had a sign up sheet. And my friend's like, oh, sign up brew. And I was like, I don't know, I'll sign up If you sign up thinking that, like, you know, that would Get Me Out of it. Then I forgot that he's a rapper, So he signed up. And then I signed up and I just did a freestyle on the mic and somebody was like, yo, that was good, but you should write.

5:37 And then I started writing. I don't know. I felt very like, accepted by the different vibes from different poetry events, I guess because we had joyous swords, we had Dysrhambia, we had Soul Lounge, we had friendly St. Ports. We had a few. Yeah, we had one man. This is like a decade ago. It was at Mama Jumbo's. There's some that just like, you know how a lot of the old, old pole tree events kind of like fizzle out and then all you can remember is like just the vibe from the night and like the connection she made, the people you met. Manal Eunice was running Soul Lounge at the time. And I was going like a regular and I was just really vibing with it.

6:22 And then she was going to move cities and she wanted to hand it off to people. And like, the main crew involved nobody. I don't think anyone was wanting to step up, but they're wanting to help out. And then we're going to do like this end project where we're just film people doing their poems and then use like the funds that they they had. That was going to be for artists that were coming up to like give people an opportunity to get their stuff filmed because they were going to end it. And I kind of wish like we could have done that. And because I was telling her like, I want like I'm inspired by this movement. I want to start my own. And then she was just like, do you want to just take it over?

7:03 Because, you know, even back then, like Soul Launch had a big reputation. It was just one of the vibious, like community poetry groups that were people of color. And like, it felt nice. It was like a poetry jam you could dance at. It was a poetry jam you'd hear music at. So I had to think about it for like a month or so. I just couldn't bear to think about this event ending and then so I took it over and I had my friend Control help me out. I had Flora Troll help out on hosting. And I don't know, there's no formal training for like running a poetry jam.

7:43 You just got to show up with a mic and. Yeah, there's no course. Like a big sheet of paper for people who write on. Yeah, there's no courses. There should be a course for this and there isn't there. Like, you just learn stuff on the way. You got to do everything. You got to, like, invite people, promote it. You got to like design the posters, you got to try and figure out who you're going to feature per month and got to get in contact with them, got to balance it out. You got to have themes. And it's like, I don't know, like I wanted to do a lot of things I wanted to bring visual artists into to also feature. And then like, I mean, we got our funding cut after a few months. So I couldn't pay the artists after that unless we did an entry fee. And we started doing entry fee and after a few years we got sponsorship again. It's just all because the, the group we're getting funding with, they kind of closed down and then they started back up, but they rebranded, which like I reached out to them and they're willing to like help us in the same degree and you know, give us funding to like pay artists to fly in and out of the city and to like get artists from Nam and from Mean Gene to like fly over here and feature and have their accommodation paid for. And when I was just meeting these artists from from Interstate, I really like there's a sense of like, man, there's a whole another city that are doing the same thing everywhere.

9:04 And it's just like, certainly we could connect, maybe make a like a poetry group for people of color there. But it's like in Mansion, they already had voices of color at the time, and that was cool. And Nisa was the one that was running that. And yeah, she was just a beautiful soul, a beautiful person to be around. And I think about how like, she's not in poetry anymore. I'm not in poetry. A lot of people I looked up to like Abe Nook, he's not in poetry anymore. And you're like, you're wondering what will may these people leave? And like, you know what, like, this is such a loving community. I eventually moved to Melbourne to see if I could. I firstly just wanted to like bring my show journey with all my costs to Melbourne.

9:45 And I kind of, I don't know, I got like stop trying to find a venue for the, the Melbourne Fringe. And like, as soon as I said I was from Adelaide, a lot of them were like, no, we're not sure if we can have you. So it was, it's very hard place. And then, yeah, I just started connecting with poets in in and just thinking throughout COVID, I kind of moved there. I started running Solange Nom and yeah, just having connecting with a whole another community, but I also felt like I missed the community back here and I missed the talent that was here because there's so many talented poets here. And I think it's because of the communities that we shaped here to develop people.

10:30 One thing that now kind of taught me was whenever you get a feature artist that's local, you like, you like call them up to like come meet up with them for a day and you kind of go over their set with them. And like, even if it's just like one poem, you kind of like help them with their their confidence, help them with their projection, help them where like they're missing something and, and try and elevate them so that you know, it's a person in the community that people see all the time. But then it's like when you see them feature, it's like, whoa, they're glowing now. You know, they're like, I don't remember them being like that. And you just feel, you feel so good seeing their growth and you you want to do more with that. And I wanted to do audio recordings with people. And I had this producer that was coming so large and he was, you know, sharing his sports poems and he eventually went to music, but he was still happy to help record. So him and another like I, I fell in love with like trying to help people, trying to help other others really develop and really reach their limits as artists. And that's what I really enjoyed. I really loved and I really love seeing people as confident as possible, like just breaking the boundaries of what other people saw them as and seeing them shine. I think that's what I miss most.

11:52 A lot of these people were just friends of mine as well. So a lot of them like came to the events because they were little friends of mine or they they met me through another thing. And then who, when some of them didn't even do poetry until they started coming to the events. And then, you know, had one friend, Sonny, who she always used to dance. And before I even started doing like running soul lounge, she came up to me and she was like, hey, much like I'm not good at poetry, but like dance is my expression and you've been through this. So we did a thing where we where I would stay at home and shoot dance to her. And it was it was amazing. It was like it like everybody was like, well, this is something new. But then after a few years, she started writing to her and she like did some hard poetry that was, I don't know. It was just like amazing.

12:45 And I eventually like put her as one of the artists that became part of my show. There was eight of us and we had to memorize our poems and kind of provide like, what do you call it? Vignettes, vignettes, theater, theater words always escape me. But it's just bringing bringing that performance into like, because if you can memorize something, then you can use your arms, you can use your face. You can really like bring something into stage and you can really reach out to people and connect with them. For me, it was just like, I want to see a few of us do and maybe like create like a linear story with all our poems.

13:25 Yeah, eventually, like we just did the feed Nets because it was like easier to just showcase each person individually through like, I don't know, like going up twice. So we all kind of like shared the stage at a certain time. And yeah, Journey was a beautiful production. I think it's like every time we did it, we were almost competing with each other to be like, who's going to get the crowd today, You know? You know, Prosper got it last night. I got to step up and it's just like, it's amazing. It's like some of the underdogs, like they, they beat us. They really got the stage. You were like, yo, it must be my off date or what not, you know? And really it's like they're shining like, and it's just having that competitiveness with the like compassion and that fun and that energy. I think that's what I love most about poetry. When everything is like pure and fresh and people are just striving to like perform with each other and connect and like really, really make a show out of like the words they wrote when they were like feeling the most and not really sure of themselves.

14:33 And they're just doing it to get over something or they're doing it to understand themselves more or reiterate what they believe they are. Think about how far we pushed it. And we wanted to, we really wanted to bring it to Melbourne to like kind of show up and be like, all right, you know, like Adelaide has some fire poets. But it was, yeah, COVID happened and it was, it was almost impossible to like keep, keep in contact with, with people that are from the city while I was trying to like develop a community over there. And I think that's, that's something that I, I don't know if anyone can ever master. And it's sad because it's like, there's so much potential in connecting with different poetry communities across, across not just our country, but like the whole world.

15:19 And we did do a session between US and people in the UK. We did a session between US and Nova. We did a session between US and me and Jim. And what's beautiful is like when somebody in my community was like, man, that person in Brisbane, when they said that poem that hit me, you know, it was like, there was no way possible that I was ever going to go to Brisbane and go to an event and hear them say that. And then when they said that I was, I knew exactly what they meant because we're from the same culture. And I'm just like, this should be a thing. And this should be like funded by like the government or something that is funded by the institution somehow. But it's because it's like we're bridging and human connection in a whole another way, a whole another realm. So it sounds like there's been so many, like, significant moments and signposts on the journey. I'm not surprised to hear you say that it started in dance for you.

16:10 Because if you think about it, even when we're young kids, you know, we're usually moving and grooving and dancing before we're talking, before we're making coherent sense and being able to advocate for ourselves and our stories. I also liked what you said about competing with your castmates. It kind of reminded me of like a little video game term of like PVPVE. So player versus player versus environment, how you can have that friendly competition between each other, but you also have a larger value. Obviously, you're not necessarily trying to delay the health and or embarrass each other necessarily. A little return and hear a little bit more about solar and slash salt spit. What was it like?

16:52 Like, what did it mean to you to have a dedicated space carved out in Adelaide for people of color? I think being able to be aware of other people's upbringings and other people's cultures and not just from the poems, but like from talking to them, like later on, like being here. But I have that. I think it's like a lot of my life, I just ignored a lot of like discrimination or racism that happened to me and I just blew it off, like shrugged it off like, you know, like just might be like a thing that happens to everybody. And I think it's like having that space and realizing that other people can see that you've been like afflicted by racism or discrimination.

17:40 And you know, like in the weirdest ways, it's like one of my jobs was like, you can't have two Asians at the front that are working. There can only be one Asian. And then like it has to be an Australian person or whatever. It's like those ridiculous rules that we get, we get told, I think it's, it's a good way to like outlet like the issues that we've been facing, not like just to each other, but like to like understand this. Like we all go through some sort of discrimination and like, but also like getting to really know people and get feeling safe in a community, feeling heard in a community, Which I think it's like sometimes when I want to do real poems about my homeland or real poems about like what I felt like. I feel like more than anything, the audience of Soul Lounge have always connected with me in in a hard way where some places like where there's not much people of color, not much multiculturalism, it, it feels very like misunderstood. It feels like an echo in the room. And you feel like, should I have said that? Like was there any point to me performing? I think about how there needs to be a space which platform people of color because of that's what sometimes happens to us. I went to one of Michael Reynolds's events once and like everyone was doing 2 poems and then they like something happened and I was going to do 2

19:12 poems and when I was going to start my second poem, everybody just started booing. I was just like, why am I here? And like, I think it was like some people were wanting their friend to go next, I heard. And they, they were like they wanted me to hurry up and I was like, all right, cool if that's that was the case. But I think it's it, it's also about the idea of artistry. It's like we're not valued enough or we don't value ourselves enough as artists. And I think as poets, it's like a lot of the time, it's like we're putting so much time and Croft into like writing our stuff, editing our stuff, memorizing our stuff, trying to perform and elevate our performance and trying to understand how the people react to us.

19:54 And I think about how much work that is. And it's it's a lot of work. And yet we go to these events and we perform our stuff. After paying an entry fee or what not. And it's like if it costs so much to like, get this out, to like bring our message across. Is this an art form which like is undervalued by society? I think therefore our Slam is brought to you by the Slam Fam on Patreon. Yes, these are the generous, beautiful, creative souls who help keep the lights on here at Podcast HQ. And for less than the price of a coffee a month, they get access to all types of exclusive goodies including bonus episodes, previews of upcoming content, new poems and musings from me, and much more.

20:42 To become a member, you can head on over to patreon.com/I TTIS or click the link in the description. Now back to the conversation, but when you were talking about having, you know, that ridiculous thing you said about like almost like people quotas, Like what was it you said you, you can't have two Asian people at at the front or whatever. Were you talking about like a customer service environment? Was that right? Yeah, yeah, I was a bartender and yeah, there was a bar that I was working at. It was like a full on restaurant, but it's like they didn't want 2 Asian people to work at the at the bar, which is the front of the restaurant. It makes it less valuable.

21:24 It just doesn't make the ball look good apparently. I remember I met like there was a guy who was very clean. He had a nice suit on and he he came in with his resume and I like gave it to my manager and my manager's like, oh, but he's black and I'm like, all right. And later on I met this guy in the poetry scene, which is crazy. His name is Temba Shimba and he's a beautiful soul. And he ended up being one of the best poets I've ever met. And he, yeah, he's now in Mijin doing his own thing, but he was a part of the journey performance as well. So it's crazy how how you kind of interweave with people at certain times. Sometimes you know you're going to meet that person again and be like something about you, and then they're a poet. When you met up, like, did you reflect on that experience or did that kind of come to your?

22:19 Recollection again at a slam. Oh no, there's there's another event before that. And I was like, I know that guy, I don't know how. And then later on, it clicked, yeah, later on because he was kind of coming in the poetry scene and I was like, come to Solange. And he was like, oh, I bumped into him last year. And I was telling him how I'm like, not really in poetry anymore. I don't want to be in the community. And he was like, oh, that's sad to hear because like, to me, you were a catalyst in, like, putting me back into words, putting me back into music. And like, you know, he loves me for that. And I think about that, and I think about how a lot of people needed me to be that person. Like, Manal was the person for that before me. And like, I was striving hard to, like, just bring people up. But then a lot of the time it's like when I'm doing that, I'm not doing anything for myself.

23:09 And I think about how much time I've let go in not helping myself and just dedicating my whole life to like poetry while working like a side job, hoping that one day like, you know, this, this will turn into something while I let my other dreams fade away. And right now I'm like thinking more self-centered and thinking more selfish. And I think that's good for a person like me who's, who's done a lot and I'm just trying to work on my own stuff now, which is beautiful. But I've got on this, this kind of space and segregation of, of who I am away from community in a, in a way. So, but I think about how Timber said that and how that to a lot of people, I am a catalyst and I'm somebody that has pushed people to like go beyond what they thought they could go beyond.

24:02 I have just seeing that before they could see it in themselves and pushing them on those those days out with the features before they feature over like a span of 10 years. And I'm like glad I did that long run by the same time. Like if I didn't, I would have been obscuring a lot, a lot faster if I if I just thought more about myself and yeah, dedicated more time to myself. And I'm thinking about like, so that's not who I am, but it is who I am now, I guess because I have to. It sounds like you're just transforming, mate. Like I know a lot of what we're talking about here is, is you looking back on your kind of heyday and your hot streak that, that you're on.

24:47 But you know, life isn't going to be one thing or like one never ending hot streak. So I think it's OK to change. And you know, we, we, we're looking forward to hearing more about how you are changing and what, what you're working on now. I do want to know a bit more about the fact that, you know, you have been based in Adelaide, you have been based in Melbourne over the COVID years, the the worst years in Melbourne. What have you appreciated about the art scenes in each city? I mean, I know we're, we're very competitive as cities by nature. So I'm not necessarily trying to get like a ranking system going, but I am interested in like what? What differences and what things have you found to appreciate? Any it's hard to collaborate with people straight away in Ghana country.

25:29 Like it's hard sometimes, like a lot of people here, they will think of ideas and it's hard to like really get people to like commit. Where I think in in Melbourne, a lot of people, sometimes you just talk to musicians and you'd be like, oh, we could collaborate. And they'll be like, all right, what are you doing this Friday? Meet up in my garage. And then Friday you're, you're like practicing and you're jamming with these musicians and you're, you're developing like like a band kind of bond that it's like, wow, like I could never do this here. It's really hard. Like people were very closed off in in the city, but I think about, I don't know, I was also in an urban art fair. If you were talking about visual arts as well, as well as like music and and dance.

26:13 I think that like people are able to apply for funding more so in Victoria than in SA because a lot of the national grounds are like out when we're doing our fringe. So all of the artists are already like fully busy unless you're not doing fringe, which which makes like no sense as an artist sometimes, but it's whatever. I think it's like there's more auspice agencies in, in Melbourne where in in Adelaide there's only a few. So it's like, how are you going to apply for a grant if you don't have the connection to an auspice agency? So I think also like the the density in population and the love for art in Melbourne is greater where like you've got like VCA there right here. I feel like we've got a few different schools, but it's like you say, you're doing art for a living, people are going to like look down at you.

27:08 But I think that's anywhere in the world except for maybe Melbourne. Because Melbourne I feel like is the art capital of like this country. I don't know, like there's so many opportunities that I just got to be a part of because I'm a dancer. I'm like a multi disciplinary artist. Like I ended up being in a musical even though I Can't Sing. There's just so much happening in in that city and I love it. But it's like also it's like there's no, no downtime to really like, I don't know, be be in a solitary state where you can refine your art to that next level. I feel that's what's missing. I think maybe if you go out into like the regional areas, there'll be a difference. But I felt like you didn't have room to breathe in that city. But when, when I came back here, everything felt so slow, painfully slow, like what's happening? There's nothing happening this week, What's happening next week?

27:58 Nothing's happening. What do you mean? Why are you asking what's happening? It's like, I think it's like there are events here. There are monthly poetry events, there are dance events. The dance scene in Melbourne is crazy. There's a session every day, which is unimaginable over here because it's like there's barely any sessions that are on the weekly and it's like maybe a tournament once a year here where there there's like man, like tournaments in every style of dance. Like I think that's that's what happens with the density of population. But I think about Sydney, I think I tried to do stuff in Sydney while I was there because I drove all the way up there from here and there was somebody that was going to feature me for an event and then they didn't sell enough tickets for that so the event got cancelled. But I stayed longer anyway.

28:46 I ended up doing like a mural while I was there just because I was like, I need to paint something. The art in different cities are very different. I think the talent is very, very, it doesn't like represent the the way the population is and how busy a place is sometimes because it's like throughout this city and it's I guess lack of events, people are more in tune with like developing themselves individually. Where I feel like in Melbourne, it's it's very performance based. Like a lot of the poetry events you guys have are slams. And if not, they're time to like the stage. And it's like you've only got these minutes and it's like people are putting out the same poems all the time. And it's like, I don't know, there's different scenes as well.

29:32 There's like the very publishing scene over there, There's the very slam scene. There's like the small nitty gritty like scenes that are all around the suburbs. I miss that. I miss all those events. It's a big city. I think here people rarely work on storytelling more than slam, where it's more it's more about breaking the barriers of two minutes, 3 minutes, and less about being that slam style, that performance style, and more about just being yourself. And I think in a way that's more authentic and like, you know, maybe I'm a little just to my city, but that's, that's how I feel.

30:16 But there are like such authentic poets I've made in Melbourne. We do, all right. I reckon. I had a nightmare once about being in a musical where I couldn't sing. You know what I mean? That that sounds super challenging. Yeah. Well, let's zoom in on Adelaide, where you're based nowadays. You've been kind of a mainstay at Adelaide Fringe Festival. I know you're taking a year off this year, but Fringe Festival, you know, being one of the biggest in the world. And back in 2024, you created a visual exhibit for the Adelaide Fringe Festival. I'd love to know more about this, especially like what personal stories from your life formed the basis of that show. I think this is what I'm kind of getting into now. Like the idea of these multitudes of arts is like different communities.

31:04 Everyone thinks they're different. Everyone like separate tribes, like they're different countries. And I think about fusing them together. I think the also the communities, because it's like a lot of like people that aren't in the Fine Arts communities think that all these people are just like rich assholes or they're just like, you know, highbrow people. It's like you can go to these like artists that are like getting exhibited at the NGV or at like the Australian Gallery of SA and they're like just as St. as you. And you wouldn't know it, but I think it's just like breaking out of those communities. I think Melbourne does this well. I think Melbourne kind of taught me about this as a coward and dancer. His name is Journal and he once told me like, hey, man, we're doing this dance event.

31:54 We got funding for a down down. I think it was a foot scray at the trying to remember like some churchy building, but it was cool. And he was like, I want you to perform poetry at this dance, man. I'm like, you're crazy. Hell no, we're not doing that. I don't want to do this. I'm not going to get embarrassed. These people aren't going to get poetry. We ain't going to get clicks from dancers, You know what I'm saying? Like, and he was just like, what would make you do it? I was like, if I do it, you have to dance to my poetry. I guess that reflects back on like, my experience was funny and her dancing in my poetry. And he's like, all right. And then we practiced together. He danced my poetry. And then afterwards, like, you know what I should do? At the last verse? I should hand you the mic, and then I should dance to your poetry.

32:37 And that was one of the derpest, like, events I've been in, one of my favorite dancers. He came up to me and went highlight. He was pointing me. I was like, whoa, like, you're one of my favorite dancers. You think I was a highlight? I didn't even dance that much. I think it's just if poetry is that powerful that can connect with another art through just being itself and then other people can connect with it. Just like if you bring a dancer to a poetry jam that is just like puts on that one song, just gets into it, starts the intro and then just everyone's just like locked on. I think it's also like the vibe that when you're in a polisher jam, everyone's like kind of quiet and attentive and they absorb everything. And then it's like you, you put a dancer in that environment and it's like, bam, we've got a whole room that's like been drawn by their feelings. And then there's just somebody that's pushing out all their emotions through dance and really like creating some kind of visceral and like, and you can't hear it right, but you see it, you see this movement and you're like feeling it. I think it's like there's a border that we have always imagined between us.

33:45 I think it's the same with artists. I guess that's what made me do the the exhibition. I had a general manager of one of the art galleries come to a poetry event that I was featured of. And he was like, I really like your poetry. I want to give you an opportunity to like create art, but with your words. And I think it's like, as somebody that's always been like curious about art, not really an artist. I mean, like when I was in primary school, I was very much good at 2D stuff. And like my teachers would hold up my work to the class and people will be like, whoa. But then I like later just detracted from that. And I, I've always like wondered what happens if I like actually fully went into it.

34:26 And the exhibition I did at Nexus, I really wanted it to be involving in with community. I don't want it to be just about me. I went to do a call out to all Filipinos like that had stuff that was hidden away in their closets and like stacked up and plastic. And I was like, do you need that? Are you going to use that? And then, you know, they're going to be like 01 day somebody. I'm like, nobody's going to use it. Let me take it and paint on it. Let me make art with it. And I started to kind of use my poems to reflect on the art. So it was kind of like, it's drastic, but it was reverse because a lot of people, I don't know if you know what a drastic is. It's when somebody writes a poem that's influenced by a painting or a picture or photo, and it's like, it's always been kind of more that way.

35:22 It's never been the opposite way somebody paints in feeling response to a poem. So that's what I wanted to focus it on. So I had to paint my poems within these objects that were just kind of going to waste. Or I'd cut them up into little bits of wood. And I made a whole beaded curtain out of these wooden slats that were like the size of bookmarks. And then it was this whole kind of entrance into the gallery. And on the back, I like, stenciled a poem on each kind of bookmark size piece of wood using the stain, and then like, filling out the letters so it would look like I'd scratched all these letters into it. People wouldn't know that they're walking through a poem until they got to the end of the exhibition and they saw it right at the end.

36:19 I wanted people to be inspired to be like, what, what can you do with your poems that isn't just performing on a stage? What can you do besides, like, riding on a wall? They said that like when I launched the exhibition, it was one of the best launches they've ever had because you had people that were from the poetry community that would come and they'd say a poem. You had people from the dance community that had come and they'd dance. I had a lot of that intertwining. And then it was in a visual arts area. So of course visual artists and people in in that industry that were coming and they're all seeing this. They're seeing people dancing, people doing poems and they're like, this is crazy. I think that's what I want to do more of. It's really testing because it's like there's barely any like pathway or idols that I have that that kind of do this. There are a few, there's a few break dances that will use their moves to paint portraits on on these canvases on the floor. But there's not much poets that go into visual arts without cutting their words down.

37:28 I think about that and I think about when I was at Nexus doing this exhibition, a lot of the time the manager was like, you don't have to use all the words, you can cut it down. You don't have to spoon feed it. And I think about that, I think about how much do we cut our words down? So it gets into the time of the two-minute mark. How much do we cut our words down? So it's like people can have their own space to like subjectively feel something from the poem that is yours to make it something meaningful for them. But then it's also like, people aren't going to completely understand the art that you push out. It's not going to be something that's like, Oh yeah, I get that. That's a sculpture of a hand.

38:09 That's a painting of a fish. And it's like sometimes it's not what the artist intended. And there's no averting that in this one. I think that's something we learned, but in poetry it's almost like so definitive that you understand exactly what this person says. So it kind of breaks those bounds, and I think that's why people question it as an art. But I don't know. And what about the name that you gave to that Expo as well? Like where? Where did that come from? I was thinking of calling it something else because all the things, items, all the belongings of a poet and I wanted it to be more about the people around me. But it's like that just sounded nice.

38:50 Like I asked a lot of other Filipinos like what do they think of this or what do they think of the other title? And they, they thought this title is very giving to like what what the remnants are of like people that are trying to respond, people that are trying to be artistic, people that are trying to weave words together. And like, like the namesake Makata, it's in there. So it's, it's very much about like my belongings. So I had to learn my old poetry books that were just there on display that people could like flip through and see my like really cringe work of like my beginnings. And a lot of it was like junk that was just turned into art. So I think about just collecting stuff from community and I'm not a visual artist, but I did that.

39:37 And I, I think now that I'm like really looking into like developing myself as a visual artist, I'm glad that I kind of had my exhibition and like, I don't need to prove myself. And I'm going in a certain path where I'm like, filming myself painting, using dance and having poetry that stands underneath that, and like trying to mix all those different arts together. It's a hard journey because I don't know if it's the right journey. I don't know if I'm doing too much. Maybe I'm doing too much. Maybe the general manager as well. Like there's too many words. Like we can't just put words on a canvas and be like, that's art, right? Maybe. Who knows?

40:19 Well, all I know mate, is that next time people see Macho Makata at, you know, in a Fringe show, they need to be there front row. That's that's all I know. Hey, quick pep talk. If you're enjoying the episode, I'd love it if you could leave a rating, review, comment, or like wherever you're listening right now. You know how this works. Every little bit of digital interaction helps people to find the show and keeps the poetry flowing. And if you want to do something extra special, please share the episode with someone who you think will vibe with it. That also helps with all of the above. Thanks so much for listening and now back to our guest. I think you're ready to hear your second piece, my friend. OK, this one is from the show Journey. Yeah, we talked a lot about it.

41:14 Journey is about perspectives of hurting, about the lessons, learning different nuances, diverting, about a class of fools, loners, migrants, bursting rhymes and minds expressing their worthy. Journey isn't about the difference of you and me. It's about the distance of you and me. It's about the system of greed and capitalistic racism we're facing subliminally, structurally and utterly with ignorant beings. It's about the diversity of struggle and not hiding behind the lines of a hand up, blind to the times that we can't face. I'm tired of it. When are we going to make up? When are we going to make it make good, make it good enough for you to see the same in me as you do in you?

41:55 Good stuff. Mate, thank you. Yeah. Just a short one. That's how I would start the show off. It'd be me, Prosper and Timber like the way we started off. We just like one of us would come in and be like yo soul brother #3 what it be. And then Timber would come out and be like, yo, you talking to me? So my brother #2 what it do? And then Prosper, I think I got a mixed up between Prosper and he'll be like soul brother #1 let's get it done. And then we'd say this like one of us would have a verse each and then the last one, we'd say it together and just give such a such an impact that you're about to see a really Dope Show. I think it'd be dope to do something like that again. Well, that's what you need.

42:38 You need a punchy first scene, don't you? I want to talk. You mentioned dance as such an important element to yourself. I want to zoom in on that. Now what? What? What makes your connection to dance special and how do you think it complements your pursuit of the written or the spoken word? Is it like a break from being too wordy or does it help you? I guess so, yeah. It is a break from being too wordy. I think, especially in the Crump scene. There are like parallels with poetry. I think about journal, I think about me and other dancer slash poets and it's like when you're in a in a poetry movement, people give you hype when they feel your words of do this work in in the Crump scene, people will yell be like, yo, like it'll just be very loud. It's very different to the clicks because it's like, oh, OK, I'm getting some response from the crowd. I think about that.

43:39 But like, how does a compliment? I think it's just a break from, I think like every now and then just pull up with a speaker, turn it on, invite a few friends, just let out every every kind of physical immersion in you that that you need. I think about the documentaries I watched like Ryze growing up and understanding that dance was an outlet that like subverted you away from doing crime, from joining gangs, from selling drugs or or whatnot. I think about how rough my childhood was and how like dance is very needed in that sense that it's like, I really want to make my life better and I really want to like be beyond this. And I think that's also why I went full circle and I went back to teach to the kids at juvie.

44:28 I think about how we're using language in another way and how dance can be poetic, how words can have a rhythm that almost entangle each other, that like cascade in a way. I think about the different techniques used in poetry and repetition and how that's similar to dance in a way, as well as like visual art as well. It's like in everything, you need a pause. So when dancers are just going chaotic, sometimes the most powerful thing they can do is just stay still. Just like when you're about to perform something and you want, you want to make that pause and like hold it in the air, like like you hurt me and just hold that. And you can feel that tension.

45:15 And it's just like when you go to an art gallery and you see the paintings have some distance of separation with each other. I think about how that relates, how all these relate, how we need to just let the silence be for a second, how we need to stay still for a second, how we need distance. And I think a lot of people say bilingual people have the better kind of understanding of English because they're able to see outside of that. I think that's the same with dance and being part of these other art forms and like really understanding the parallels of of being uncomfortable on stage and knowing that this shows power.

45:58 It's opening up almost like a negative space where you go, OK, I'm shutting up for a while. I am in movement. I'm surrendering myself to a different side of my brain or a different way that I like to do things. And I think that helps you kind of come around to the thing that you're taking about a break from with, with new eyes and with a new, new perspective. Fantastic insight, mate. Now I know you've talked a lot about, you know, you've had many years of kind of being at the forefront of organizing and advocating for people. When you think about, I guess the work life trade-offs that come with being an artist or a community organiser or producer, what do you think is like 1 boundary or system that you put in place to protect your energy and creative output, to prevent yourself from burning out I suppose. That's a good question.

46:51 I think I'm, I didn't really think about this when I was running community. I just thought I'd give 100% and then I'll give more and then I'll keep going and then what's the worst that could happen? I think it's just like you just, you don't have energy. You just keep going. You just be there for the people. I think like it's wack. I didn't have any boundaries but it is what it is Did. You hit a wall at any stage or several times, or. I think I just got better at like what I missed out on. Like it was like, OK, I didn't promote right this month. Oh, OK, I didn't do the acknowledgement right this month or like, OK, cool. We didn't get to connect with the feature. It's like just trying to like better myself.

47:33 It's like for me it was like, this is my purpose in life. And like while I'm working a side job, it's like, I don't know, like I read a lot of motivational books when I was in my teens. I think about like how that kind of pushes me to like be somebody that has a high drive to like just keep going, not give up, even when everything feels like you've got no energy, you've got nothing. And it's like just seeing the the envision of like this is going to be a great event. I also think about just before the event, like, you know, when it's 655, the event starts at 7 and everybody's there and you're like got all this anxiety and people like people. And then everyone just comes late. Everyone comes. But it's just like that moment of like, damn, why am I doing this? It's it.

48:18 Yeah. It's just like a thrill and yeah, a downfall. I feel like I did burn out once when we were doing the, the poetry event between Solange Adelaide and Slamma Lama Ding Dong, because I had to set up everything like tech wise for myself and I had to like like I had to get to the venue at like 1 PMI was carrying speakers from my house and like back and forth. I needed to get a new cord for one of the speakers and we needed to set up like the the way that the people would see people on the screen that were in Nam that were like, you know, in COVID lockdown at the time. But also to like set up the camera so it shoots the person that's on the stage that's live.

49:07 And it's like just doing all that feedback. And then, I don't know, there was like a lot of crazy stuff that happened in that event. People got triggered, people left. There weren't any people of color that slam Lama Ding Dong Brown like they even though they said they'd bring them. So a lot of people felt uncomfortable with that and unsure like why that was. I think that's the only time I got burnt out. I wasn't even the Hearst of the event as well. It's just I think we're all going through. I'm sure there are other times I felt burned out. I'm tired. I think you do have to say boundaries, but it's like at the cost of what it's like, I don't know. I don't think about myself and my, my own, like health and my own safety much. And I, I think maybe that's an issue.

49:49 Maybe that's something that I have the privilege of not thinking about as well. Like I feel like ever since I was born, I'm I'm just a tool that's used to like mend things or create things and it's like I don't think of myself as a person sometimes, so. OK, well it sounds like, yeah, you're still drawing out the learnings and the wisdom from from everything that that you've been through. Yeah. And macho. You know, looking ahead, it's evident that, you know, you're changing the things you do and the way you do them. If you had to design like a five year playbook for your I guess creative goals, what do you think would be 3 non negotiable values or something that you would put at the top of that playbook and why? It reflection of what I was talking about like I think about what I'm pushing myself to do as a visual artist developing and I think about like just working harder than everybody around me. I think about that as one of them. I think about how hospitality and service jobs as well as construction jobs have trained me to like work hard endlessly with no, no room from complaint, you know, And I think about if I put that kind of work ethic work style into art where it's like I'm just pushing myself to the limits until like a certain time.

51:15 So I think it's just like work till I die kind of vibes, but merging art, trying to explore different senses of art as well as like exploring techniques within the individual styles of art. Like a lot of my ideas for the next three years is to not do any, any performance, not to do any show, not to put myself out there because I'm using this time for my solitary development. So. Solitude. Yeah, a part of it is just don't put myself out there as much as I have been because I think we lessen the value of ourselves the more we put it out there. And we see it in some of the the, the most popular poets that we know, like they share things like once a month maybe. I think if you put out too much content, that's it. Like kind of, I don't know.

52:10 Like I think it's just like, I'm just trying to move in silence and just really like explore what I'm feeling, what I'm thinking, what I've learned into, into play, into paint, into wood, into the fusion of these arts into like creating beats, into trying to edit videos. And I haven't posted at all. And I think I don't have to, I don't have to share the world what I'm doing all the time. I think about the fact that I'm just enjoying my own art, my my own sake. And and that's like a beautiful privilege that like I haven't been able to do since I was a kid. So maybe in the fourth year, put something out there, do an exhibition just like I did, but have more visual artists that are a part of it, have more dancers that are a part of it. Have more poets that don't know their poets. One thing I loved was meaning people on the street or meaning people in real life and being like, you know what, you, you write poetry, you don't know you, you got, I've seen your notes.

53:15 And then bringing them to a thing where it like kind of show up on those people that are like very like egotistical poets. They're like, oh, I'm one of the best. This is what I do. And I think it's like, I live by this. This is a 2 pack quote. You're not better than anyone else, but at the same time, nobody is better than you. And I think it brings us to that, that equal level of like, you shouldn't like step over people, but you shouldn't let yourself be stepped over. I think about how I meet a lot of people. There's a girl I'm at a cafe that I go to, and she just, she talks about how she writes poems in her mother tongue, which is Spanish because she's from Chile.

53:56 And I'm like, I used to run events just for, like, people like you. And she's just like, I just, I don't know, like, I'm like, I want to hear your poem next time I see you. And it's just, like making that connection. So it's like my community isn't in, like, a particular event. It's in just meeting people on my daily and being able to hear what stories they tell me, what poems they bring up. I always just want to hear another poem, I guess. Yeah. Well, you know what they say. Real GS move in silence like lasagna. That's all I'll say.

54:38 So there's nothing wrong with solitude. There's nothing wrong that if you know, if this is a season of not talking much about what you're up to, that's completely valid mate. And yeah, look forward to seeing or not seeing, you know what, what comes out of it, what comes out of it and what what change it might sparking you. I want to bring you into the overarching creative analogy that we've been doing for season 3. So macho. If your creative work is a colour or a shade on the colour spectrum, what colour do you think it is and why? Oh, that's a hard one. I think it's purple. I think it's like Violet.

55:20 Maybe it could be lime green, where I think it changes constantly between lime green, purple and another color I haven't discovered yet. In different ways, different colors showing different styles of art. I think poetically, a lot of my stuff is like sky blue with a deep red that's kind of overwhelming it. Yeah. What do you what do you get when you it's blue? And red, I mean, it is kind of purpley, isn't it? Yeah. That's the way we're leading. Are we talking like like royal royal purple, purple, like Cadbury purple? Yeah, I think so. I don't know, Like I've always thought purple's the color of mystery, but recently learned it was just like a color of the richness because it's like it takes so much to make that color.

56:11 I just, I don't know, I vibe with purple so hard. And I feel like, yeah, that red and blue, that, that contrast of like that peace and that like desolateness. It is kind of me, whether it is in poetry, in dance, in visual art, in sculpture, it's. Yeah. A lot of my stuff is very like hoping for peace, but like ultimately accepting the destruction of life and the way things are. So I feel it's purple. I don't know if that's a royal purple. I feel like it's a it's a violent purple, maybe a Violet purple. Dried blood, Purple.

56:52 Yeah, dried. Maybe it's just a colour that we have to. We've yet to find. It's on some some ultraviolet spectrum or something. And then we'll be able to match it perfectly one day. Who knows? We now come to the segments shamelessly ripped off Diary of a CEO. It is Diary of a POET so macho you've been left a a question from my previous guest. So this comes from fellow Adelaide poetry scholar Jordan Thompson. He asks, does poetry evoke emotion or is it the results of emotions? It's the ultimate chicken and egg question. What do you reckon? Can I say both? I've been thinking about this question all night. I think about how poetry does evoke emotion. When you hear it from others, even when you say your own poem, you can reflect back and it hits you twice as hard. It's like you're saying something that's like a mirror. But also like a lot of my writings come from like just feeling my emotions and putting them into poetry. So that's my answer.

57:55 Both it's, it's, it's both of them. Like I like this is a trick question. Yeah, I'm tempted to call you a fence sitter, but no, I know exactly where you're coming from. Both end. We transcend such categories. That's what we do as artists, macho. If, if people want to find out more about you, it sounds like, you know, you might be going underground for a bit. But if if they did want to hear a little bit more about what you've done over the years or maybe what you're getting up to now, are there any particular places or spaces or realms where they should head? Yeah, like I've had my SoundCloud up for a bit. So if you just look at my name on SoundCloud, Macho Mercado or on my Instagram, yeah, Macho Mercado, that's where you can find me.

58:41 You can feel free to message me if you're curious about anything. Even if you think you're annoying, just say something. I'm planning to put out like an art diary on WordPress or something because I've just been writing a whole bunch of Diaries on the process of creating arts. There's a few things, but they're not going to be out for a while. So but like, I guess I'll link them on my my Instagram when they're out. I'm doing some game design stuff as well so I might be coming up with a game. One of the best games in the world has just come out from Adelaide being the Hollow Night Silk song. So you got your, got your work cut out. Yeah, I'm not competing with them. I'm just making a very nice niche narrative indie game. I'm not making anything that's superb and and yeah, Hollow Nights expectations.

59:30 That's huge. Yeah, I don't I'm not competing with that. Yeah. But it's it's great that you know that it's great that that's acknowledged. Yeah, Instagram. That's it. That's all I'm really kind of active on. But my sound thought is there and I I have the recordings up there, so no matter what, you can always hear my voice. It's always a way to to hear you. Well, we'll have links for all of that in the episode description as well. And that's our time is is coming to a swift end, but we do want to hear your third and final piece before we bid farewell. This has been great. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you for the beautiful questions and yeah, the space.

1:00:11 All right, one last poem. I guess this reflects on on a lot of things. I'm just wanting to hear another person's poem. And yeah, it's my favorite piece. And I think it's a piece that was developed through just sharing people's pieces in my community and just taking that in and really like wanting to empower people in my community to like, not be afraid to share what they don't know is poetry. I want to hear a poem. I want to hear a poem about everything I don't know. I want to hear a poem that's not just for sure. I want to hear a poem that will make me feel something. You make me understand another's culture, another country's truths. I want to hear a poem about who you are deep inside. I want to know about your traditions, where your heritage lies.

1:00:58 I don't want to hear the sweet, blissful issues. I want to hear about the war-torn struggles, the bombs and the pistols. I want you to take me where everyone is afraid to go. I want you to show me what it is you call home. I want to hear a poem. I want to feel the pain in your voice delivered to many strangers that have no idea of having no choice. I want to hear you screaming anguish of the subtle scenes your real life and how when you came here, everything is different. But that doesn't mean it's right. It doesn't mean it's why. It doesn't mean things are all dandy, mate. Hello, goodbye. I want to hear a poem. I want to hear a poem that makes you stand up to the comfortable, makes you reach those uncomfortable, makes them feel lovable. I want to hear a poem about heart breaks between traditions, of countries, between provinces that are suffering and those that are hungry.

1:01:39 About how love is expensive except to those with money. I want to hear a poem that'll make these people feel something. I want to hear a poem. I want to hear a poem that'll open the eyes of those around through the ear drums. Of the sound of your voice being proud of the dirt roads that you've stepped from, Of the hecklers you've been stepped on. With those that don't know how things go. On the other side of the spectrum, I want to hear a poem. I want to hear a poem about how everyone thinks you got it. How you can't pay your rent, find a job, but everyone thinks you're so exotic. I want to hear a poem. So if you've got something cultured, something inspiring and something global, if you've got something insightful, something you think you can rock the mic to, something that may make others not like you because it's so hard to speak the damn truth, I want to hear you.

1:02:21 I want to hear a poem that brings fear to the crop, that shows in January of luster, shows the struggle of a girl of color and everything they suffer. I want to hear a poem. I want to hear a poem. Intellectually stimulating but culturally invigorating, almost insinuating or saying something deep. They even the streets get scared when they hear you read. I want to hear a poem. I want to hear a poem from someone indigenous about how having no privilege gets you from being a witness to take you into prison. And when you speak in your native tongue, nobody listens. I want to hear a poem. I want to hear a poem that examines the struggles of an Asian family bargaining the eldest daughter for a chance to get through the hell before them to a wealthy donor is looking for love and a place full of trauma to bring her here. And of course, she's all for everything works out and two newborns who barely know who they are because the way Australia laughs A cultural ways that are straight from here because they accept diversity.

1:03:16 But these tongues that are not clear, these ones they fear. Oh wait, that's how I got here. I want to hear a poem. I want to hear a poem about identity and how it's like a butterfly, so easy a picture floating by but so hard to define, so hard to capture and even harder to dissect. I know they haven't captured it yet, but it feels like they've opened up my chest and I don't know what they've put in here to replace. But now when I look inside myself, it doesn't feel the same. So tell me a poem that will make me shake whatever place, make me feel more awake to the troubles. I haven't had the face. I want to hear a poem. Thank you very much. Yeah, and I know that, you know, you got the opportunity to share that poem at the Australian Poetry Slam final in 2024.

1:04:04 And that's what really made my ears prick prick up at the time and and go, hey, I've I've I've got to talk to macho. I think Macho Makata, this has been a blast. Thank you so much for thinking with us and slamming with us today. Awesome. Thanks, Andrew. It's been a pleasure. Weetabix. Fans, what's that all about?