Matcho Makata - Expression Is a Lifeline, Not a Luxury

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Slam poetry doesn't care if it's
perfect.

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It's time to slam.
It's the biggest poem I've got

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inside of her.
She was a thief.

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You love me to love a haunted
house.

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Yelling, angry blood black
nothingness began to spin this

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day.
I hate pork chops.

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I am the master of my thing.
I am the captain of myself.

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Splashing down like the crew of
Artemis 2.

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It's I think therefore I slam
the podcast bringing you the

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best spoken word and slam poetry
artists from Australia and

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beyond.
My name is Andrew Rogerson as

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always and with me today I have
an actor, writer, performance

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poet, dance teacher, community
leader, theatre producer,

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movement enthusiast, event
manager, previous publisher and

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creative director of Soul Lounge
Adelaide, previous event

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organizer of Soul Lounge Numb
and director of Soul Lounge

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Australia.
My The Best is known for poems

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that focus on exploring
identity, incorporating A

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bilingual approach to rhythm.
Their poetry can be a sensory

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adventure, weaving thought
provoking imagery with cadence

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through a whimsical, empowering
performance.

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Whether it's hurt, identity,
happiness, artistry, addiction

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or bringing to light unseen
issues of people of colour.

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Macho Makata, welcome on.
Hey, thanks for having me.

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It's great to be here.
There is a sense of anticipation

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somewhat because I know you're
coming to me live from one of

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Adelaide's universities and
maybe one of the the rooms that

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could be barged in by students
at any point.

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Is that right?
Yeah, possibly, but it's uni

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break at the moment so chances
are like 5050.

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Fair enough.
I'll take the emails.

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What happens?
Never tell me.

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We'll, we'll see what happens.
Macho.

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Let's jump into things, shall
we?

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We are all super keen to hear
your first piece.

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I'm going to give you the floor.
You're welcome to give it a

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little bit of an intro or let it
speak for itself.

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Whatever you want to do, my
friend.

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OK, let's just go into it.
Sometimes I wonder.

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I wonder where my homeland is.
Is it here or there or somewhere

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in between?
But I only wonder sometimes.

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I know that bridging the gap can
only be crossed by those that

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are inherited, but for me, I
struggled to hold on to that

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heritage, the ideas that most of
us are blessed with.

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The comfort of not feeling like
I'm meant to be somewhere else

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when I'm here.
Realizing that thousands of

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miles away adaptations go
straight or goes on between

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homes is unknown to most of the
feelings I felt growing up was a

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fear of not knowing myself.
See as a child I never felt more

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outside the box.
Not being able to tick when it

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came to 1 ethnicity, they
thought that 2 was a lot.

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Not being able to cope.
No matter which side of the

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globe I was on, only half of me
was accepted.

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Only half of me was accepted.
See I've always fallen within

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the cracks of the land I stand
in.

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Not knowing if I belong
anywhere.

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Not until I realized I'll need
anyone to accept me for the land

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is what gives acceptance.
My home is where I've been

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inherited, like the current of
the Seas pushes the water

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between the lands and my feet as
I look into the horizon, trying

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to find a reflection in the sea,
trying to sculpt my homeland

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while I'm standing on the beach,
I don't realize that I'm already

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there.
Thank you.

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Beautiful mate.
Well, you know, there may have

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been a time when you felt only
half of you was accepted, but

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you're 100% accepted here on the
pod, my friend.

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I want to know about how things
first started for you, Macho.

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So like, how did you begin to
have the courage to not only

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create but also share your work
with others?

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I think about my beginnings as
as dance, dance being my first

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way to be able to to speak
because like as a kid, I was

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very much immune, very much some
somebody that just wasn't able

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to say things, wasn't able to
express myself.

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Shy, introverted, call it what
you want to call it.

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I found dance to be a way that I
could actually push what I was

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feeling and thinking out into
the real world.

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In many ways.
The first dance I really took

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upon was Crump, and that was a
language in itself.

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All the moves were were like
words.

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And yeah, I got really into
that.

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And that's what kind of made me
more confident as a person as

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well as like more responsible to
understand how everything that

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affects you can affect other
people and how, like, you can

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create connections in
communities of people where you

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can teach people dance on the
street, you can teach people

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dance in community centers and
warehouses.

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And I eventually taught dancing
in prisons for juvenile kids.

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Wow.
I really got into doing that.

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But it felt like I I wanted to
say things more.

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And I used to freestyle in
Cypher's with my friends.

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And one of my friends, he's a
rapper.

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He's been putting out albums for
years.

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And he was like telling me that
my style is spoken word.

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And I was like, what is spoken
word?

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And he's like, yeah, spoken word
be.

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You should come check out this
event.

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And he took me to an event
called Dithrambia, which was run

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by Charlie Brooks at the time.
And they had a sign up sheet.

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And my friend's like, oh, sign
up brew.

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And I was like, I don't know,
I'll sign up If you sign up

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thinking that, like, you know,
that would Get Me Out of it.

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Then I forgot that he's a
rapper, So he signed up.

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And then I signed up and I just
did a freestyle on the mic and

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somebody was like, yo, that was
good, but you should write.

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And then I started writing.
I don't know.

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I felt very like, accepted by
the different vibes from

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different poetry events, I guess
because we had joyous swords, we

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had Dysrhambia, we had Soul
Lounge, we had friendly St.

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Ports.
We had a few.

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Yeah, we had one man.
This is like a decade ago.

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It was at Mama Jumbo's.
There's some that just like, you

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know how a lot of the old, old
pole tree events kind of like

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fizzle out and then all you can
remember is like just the vibe

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from the night and like the
connection she made, the people

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you met.
Manal Eunice was running Soul

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Lounge at the time.
And I was going like a regular

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and I was just really vibing
with it.

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And then she was going to move
cities and she wanted to hand it

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off to people.
And like, the main crew involved

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nobody.
I don't think anyone was wanting

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to step up, but they're wanting
to help out.

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And then we're going to do like
this end project where we're

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just film people doing their
poems and then use like the

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funds that they they had.
That was going to be for artists

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that were coming up to like give
people an opportunity to get

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their stuff filmed because they
were going to end it.

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And I kind of wish like we could
have done that.

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And because I was telling her
like, I want like I'm inspired

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by this movement.
I want to start my own.

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And then she was just like, do
you want to just take it over?

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Because, you know, even back
then, like Soul Launch had a big

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reputation.
It was just one of the vibious,

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like community poetry groups
that were people of color.

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And like, it felt nice.
It was like a poetry jam you

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could dance at.
It was a poetry jam you'd hear

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music at.
So I had to think about it for

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like a month or so.
I just couldn't bear to think

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about this event ending and then
so I took it over and I had my

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friend Control help me out.
I had Flora Troll help out on

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hosting.
And I don't know, there's no

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formal training for like running
a poetry jam.

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You just got to show up with a
mic and.

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Yeah, there's no course.
Like a big sheet of paper for

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people who write on.
Yeah, there's no courses.

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There should be a course for
this and there isn't there.

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Like, you just learn stuff on
the way.

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You got to do everything.
You got to, like, invite people,

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promote it.
You got to like design the

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posters, you got to try and
figure out who you're going to

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feature per month and got to get
in contact with them, got to

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balance it out.
You got to have themes.

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And it's like, I don't know,
like I wanted to do a lot of

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things I wanted to bring visual
artists into to also feature.

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And then like, I mean, we got
our funding cut after a few

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months.
So I couldn't pay the artists

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after that unless we did an
entry fee.

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And we started doing entry fee
and after a few years we got

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sponsorship again.
It's just all because the, the

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group we're getting funding
with, they kind of closed down

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and then they started back up,
but they rebranded, which like I

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reached out to them and they're
willing to like help us in the

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same degree and you know, give
us funding to like pay artists

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to fly in and out of the city
and to like get artists from Nam

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and from Mean Gene to like fly
over here and feature and have

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their accommodation paid for.
And when I was just meeting

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these artists from from
Interstate, I really like

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there's a sense of like, man,
there's a whole another city

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that are doing the same thing
everywhere.

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And it's just like, certainly we
could connect, maybe make a like

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a poetry group for people of
color there.

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But it's like in Mansion, they
already had voices of color at

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the time, and that was cool.
And Nisa was the one that was

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running that.
And yeah, she was just a

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beautiful soul, a beautiful
person to be around.

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And I think about how like,
she's not in poetry anymore.

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I'm not in poetry.
A lot of people I looked up to

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like Abe Nook, he's not in
poetry anymore.

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And you're like, you're
wondering what will may these

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people leave?
And like, you know what, like,

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this is such a loving community.
I eventually moved to Melbourne

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to see if I could.
I firstly just wanted to like

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bring my show journey with all
my costs to Melbourne.

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And I kind of, I don't know, I
got like stop trying to find a

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venue for the, the Melbourne
Fringe.

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And like, as soon as I said I
was from Adelaide, a lot of them

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were like, no, we're not sure if
we can have you.

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So it was, it's very hard place.
And then, yeah, I just started

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connecting with poets in in and
just thinking throughout COVID,

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I kind of moved there.
I started running Solange Nom

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and yeah, just having connecting
with a whole another community,

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but I also felt like I missed
the community back here and I

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missed the talent that was here
because there's so many talented

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poets here.
And I think it's because of the

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communities that we shaped here
to develop people.

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One thing that now kind of
taught me was whenever you get a

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feature artist that's local, you
like, you like call them up to

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like come meet up with them for
a day and you kind of go over

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their set with them.
And like, even if it's just like

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one poem, you kind of like help
them with their their

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confidence, help them with their
projection, help them where like

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they're missing something and,
and try and elevate them so that

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you know, it's a person in the
community that people see all

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the time.
But then it's like when you see

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them feature, it's like, whoa,
they're glowing now.

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You know, they're like, I don't
remember them being like that.

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And you just feel, you feel so
good seeing their growth and you

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you want to do more with that.
And I wanted to do audio

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recordings with people.
And I had this producer that was

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coming so large and he was, you
know, sharing his sports poems

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and he eventually went to music,
but he was still happy to help

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record.
So him and another like I, I

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fell in love with like trying to
help people, trying to help

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other others really develop and
really reach their limits as

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artists.
And that's what I really

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enjoyed.
I really loved and I really love

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seeing people as confident as
possible, like just breaking the

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boundaries of what other people
saw them as and seeing them

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shine.
I think that's what I miss most.

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A lot of these people were just
friends of mine as well.

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So a lot of them like came to
the events because they were

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little friends of mine or they
they met me through another

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thing.
And then who, when some of them

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didn't even do poetry until they
started coming to the events.

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And then, you know, had one
friend, Sonny, who she always

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00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:17,240
used to dance.
And before I even started doing

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00:12:17,320 --> 00:12:20,480
like running soul lounge, she
came up to me and she was like,

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00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:25,200
hey, much like I'm not good at
poetry, but like dance is my

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00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:26,920
expression and you've been
through this.

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00:12:26,920 --> 00:12:30,200
So we did a thing where we where
I would stay at home and shoot

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00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:32,680
dance to her.
And it was it was amazing.

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00:12:32,680 --> 00:12:35,360
It was like it like everybody
was like, well, this is

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00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:38,040
something new.
But then after a few years, she

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00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:41,880
started writing to her and she
like did some hard poetry that

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00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:45,040
was, I don't know.
It was just like amazing.

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00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:49,520
And I eventually like put her as
one of the artists that became

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00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:53,520
part of my show.
There was eight of us and we had

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00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:58,680
to memorize our poems and kind
of provide like, what do you

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00:12:58,680 --> 00:13:01,040
call it?
Vignettes, vignettes, theater,

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00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:04,440
theater words always escape me.
But it's just bringing bringing

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00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:07,160
that performance into like,
because if you can memorize

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00:13:07,160 --> 00:13:10,080
something, then you can use your
arms, you can use your face.

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00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:13,600
You can really like bring
something into stage and you can

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00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:17,280
really reach out to people and
connect with them.

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00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:21,880
For me, it was just like, I want
to see a few of us do and maybe

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00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:24,880
like create like a linear story
with all our poems.

246
00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:28,600
Yeah, eventually, like we just
did the feed Nets because it was

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00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:33,080
like easier to just showcase
each person individually through

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00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:35,480
like, I don't know, like going
up twice.

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00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:39,600
So we all kind of like shared
the stage at a certain time.

250
00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:43,360
And yeah, Journey was a
beautiful production.

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00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:48,080
I think it's like every time we
did it, we were almost competing

252
00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:50,560
with each other to be like,
who's going to get the crowd

253
00:13:50,560 --> 00:13:53,360
today, You know?
You know, Prosper got it last

254
00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:55,400
night.
I got to step up and it's just

255
00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:57,600
like, it's amazing.
It's like some of the underdogs,

256
00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:00,800
like they, they beat us.
They really got the stage.

257
00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:03,080
You were like, yo, it must be my
off date or what not, you know?

258
00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:07,040
And really it's like they're
shining like, and it's just

259
00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:13,160
having that competitiveness with
the like compassion and that fun

260
00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:16,200
and that energy.
I think that's what I love most

261
00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:18,640
about poetry.
When everything is like pure and

262
00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:22,840
fresh and people are just
striving to like perform with

263
00:14:22,840 --> 00:14:26,520
each other and connect and like
really, really make a show out

264
00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:30,080
of like the words they wrote
when they were like feeling the

265
00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:33,400
most and not really sure of
themselves.

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00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:36,400
And they're just doing it to get
over something or they're doing

267
00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:40,680
it to understand themselves more
or reiterate what they believe

268
00:14:40,680 --> 00:14:43,360
they are.
Think about how far we pushed

269
00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:44,880
it.
And we wanted to, we really

270
00:14:44,880 --> 00:14:48,360
wanted to bring it to Melbourne
to like kind of show up and be

271
00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:51,800
like, all right, you know, like
Adelaide has some fire poets.

272
00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:56,120
But it was, yeah, COVID happened
and it was, it was almost

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00:14:56,120 --> 00:15:01,000
impossible to like keep, keep in
contact with, with people that

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00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:03,440
are from the city while I was
trying to like develop a

275
00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:05,680
community over there.
And I think that's, that's

276
00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:08,680
something that I, I don't know
if anyone can ever master.

277
00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:12,040
And it's sad because it's like,
there's so much potential in

278
00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:16,520
connecting with different poetry
communities across, across not

279
00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:19,520
just our country, but like the
whole world.

280
00:15:19,640 --> 00:15:24,280
And we did do a session between
US and people in the UK.

281
00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:25,640
We did a session between US and
Nova.

282
00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:27,880
We did a session between US and
me and Jim.

283
00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:31,560
And what's beautiful is like
when somebody in my community

284
00:15:31,560 --> 00:15:35,160
was like, man, that person in
Brisbane, when they said that

285
00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:37,520
poem that hit me, you know, it
was like, there was no way

286
00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:40,000
possible that I was ever going
to go to Brisbane and go to an

287
00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:43,800
event and hear them say that.
And then when they said that I

288
00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:46,360
was, I knew exactly what they
meant because we're from the

289
00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:48,800
same culture.
And I'm just like, this should

290
00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:50,840
be a thing.
And this should be like funded

291
00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:53,480
by like the government or
something that is funded by the

292
00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:56,280
institution somehow.
But it's because it's like we're

293
00:15:56,280 --> 00:15:59,080
bridging and human connection in
a whole another way, a whole

294
00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:01,160
another realm.
So it sounds like there's been

295
00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:04,720
so many, like, significant
moments and signposts on the

296
00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:07,720
journey.
I'm not surprised to hear you

297
00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:10,360
say that it started in dance for
you.

298
00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:13,680
Because if you think about it,
even when we're young kids, you

299
00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:16,800
know, we're usually moving and
grooving and dancing before

300
00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:20,160
we're talking, before we're
making coherent sense and being

301
00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:23,080
able to advocate for ourselves
and our stories.

302
00:16:23,640 --> 00:16:26,240
I also liked what you said about
competing with your castmates.

303
00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:29,640
It kind of reminded me of like a
little video game term of like

304
00:16:29,640 --> 00:16:32,520
PVPVE.
So player versus player versus

305
00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:36,840
environment, how you can have
that friendly competition

306
00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:39,200
between each other, but you also
have a larger value.

307
00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:42,760
Obviously, you're not
necessarily trying to delay the

308
00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:45,520
health and or embarrass each
other necessarily.

309
00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:49,200
A little return and hear a
little bit more about solar and

310
00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:52,720
slash salt spit.
What was it like?

311
00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:58,520
Like, what did it mean to you to
have a dedicated space carved

312
00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:01,640
out in Adelaide for people of
color?

313
00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:08,240
I think being able to be aware
of other people's upbringings

314
00:17:08,280 --> 00:17:12,640
and other people's cultures and
not just from the poems, but

315
00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:15,560
like from talking to them, like
later on, like being here.

316
00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:17,880
But I have that.
I think it's like a lot of my

317
00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:23,040
life, I just ignored a lot of
like discrimination or racism

318
00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:25,880
that happened to me and I just
blew it off, like shrugged it

319
00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:29,160
off like, you know, like just
might be like a thing that

320
00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:33,400
happens to everybody.
And I think it's like having

321
00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:37,000
that space and realizing that
other people can see that you've

322
00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:40,400
been like afflicted by racism or
discrimination.

323
00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:43,960
And you know, like in the
weirdest ways, it's like one of

324
00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:47,600
my jobs was like, you can't have
two Asians at the front that are

325
00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:50,240
working.
There can only be one Asian.

326
00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:53,080
And then like it has to be an
Australian person or whatever.

327
00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:58,160
It's like those ridiculous rules
that we get, we get told, I

328
00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:02,280
think it's, it's a good way to
like outlet like the issues that

329
00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:05,440
we've been facing, not like just
to each other, but like to like

330
00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:08,160
understand this.
Like we all go through some sort

331
00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:13,280
of discrimination and like, but
also like getting to really know

332
00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:17,440
people and get feeling safe in a
community, feeling heard in a

333
00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:21,880
community, Which I think it's
like sometimes when I want to do

334
00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:28,520
real poems about my homeland or
real poems about like what I

335
00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:30,920
felt like.
I feel like more than anything,

336
00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:34,120
the audience of Soul Lounge have
always connected with me in in a

337
00:18:34,120 --> 00:18:38,520
hard way where some places like
where there's not much people of

338
00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:42,360
color, not much
multiculturalism, it, it feels

339
00:18:42,360 --> 00:18:45,560
very like misunderstood.
It feels like an echo in the

340
00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:47,720
room.
And you feel like, should I have

341
00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:50,680
said that?
Like was there any point to me

342
00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:54,920
performing?
I think about how there needs to

343
00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:59,400
be a space which platform people
of color because of that's what

344
00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:03,160
sometimes happens to us.
I went to one of Michael

345
00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:08,280
Reynolds's events once and like
everyone was doing 2 poems and

346
00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:12,160
then they like something
happened and I was going to do 2

347
00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:14,680
poems and when I was going to
start my second poem, everybody

348
00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:18,160
just started booing.
I was just like, why am I here?

349
00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:22,000
And like, I think it was like
some people were wanting their

350
00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:24,960
friend to go next, I heard.
And they, they were like they

351
00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:28,360
wanted me to hurry up and I was
like, all right, cool if that's

352
00:19:28,360 --> 00:19:31,240
that was the case.
But I think it's it, it's also

353
00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:34,000
about the idea of artistry.
It's like we're not valued

354
00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:38,720
enough or we don't value
ourselves enough as artists.

355
00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:41,400
And I think as poets, it's like
a lot of the time, it's like

356
00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:44,800
we're putting so much time and
Croft into like writing our

357
00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:48,880
stuff, editing our stuff,
memorizing our stuff, trying to

358
00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:52,080
perform and elevate our
performance and trying to

359
00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:54,120
understand how the people react
to us.

360
00:19:54,120 --> 00:19:58,000
And I think about how much work
that is.

361
00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:02,280
And it's it's a lot of work.
And yet we go to these events

362
00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:05,560
and we perform our stuff.
After paying an entry fee or

363
00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:08,360
what not.
And it's like if it costs so

364
00:20:08,360 --> 00:20:12,320
much to like, get this out, to
like bring our message across.

365
00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:17,040
Is this an art form which like
is undervalued by society?

366
00:20:19,360 --> 00:20:22,720
I think therefore our Slam is
brought to you by the Slam Fam

367
00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:25,600
on Patreon.
Yes, these are the generous,

368
00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:29,400
beautiful, creative souls who
help keep the lights on here at

369
00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:32,560
Podcast HQ.
And for less than the price of a

370
00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:35,240
coffee a month, they get access
to all types of exclusive

371
00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:38,040
goodies including bonus
episodes, previews of upcoming

372
00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:41,800
content, new poems and musings
from me, and much more.

373
00:20:42,120 --> 00:20:47,560
To become a member, you can head
on over to patreon.com/I TTIS or

374
00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:49,280
click the link in the
description.

375
00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:56,640
Now back to the conversation,
but when you were talking about

376
00:20:56,840 --> 00:20:59,600
having, you know, that
ridiculous thing you said about

377
00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:02,360
like almost like people quotas,
Like what was it you said you,

378
00:21:02,360 --> 00:21:04,920
you can't have two Asian people
at at the front or whatever.

379
00:21:05,120 --> 00:21:07,280
Were you talking about like a
customer service environment?

380
00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:09,680
Was that right?
Yeah, yeah, I was a bartender

381
00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:13,760
and yeah, there was a bar that I
was working at.

382
00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:16,200
It was like a full on
restaurant, but it's like they

383
00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:20,200
didn't want 2 Asian people to
work at the at the bar, which is

384
00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:24,120
the front of the restaurant.
It makes it less valuable.

385
00:21:24,360 --> 00:21:27,560
It just doesn't make the ball
look good apparently.

386
00:21:28,120 --> 00:21:32,120
I remember I met like there was
a guy who was very clean.

387
00:21:32,120 --> 00:21:38,320
He had a nice suit on and he he
came in with his resume and I

388
00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:41,040
like gave it to my manager and
my manager's like, oh, but he's

389
00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:46,000
black and I'm like, all right.
And later on I met this guy in

390
00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:48,360
the poetry scene, which is
crazy.

391
00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:51,480
His name is Temba Shimba and
he's a beautiful soul.

392
00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:54,400
And he ended up being one of the
best poets I've ever met.

393
00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:59,240
And he, yeah, he's now in Mijin
doing his own thing, but he was

394
00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:01,480
a part of the journey
performance as well.

395
00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:07,000
So it's crazy how how you kind
of interweave with people at

396
00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:09,080
certain times.
Sometimes you know you're going

397
00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:12,280
to meet that person again and be
like something about you, and

398
00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:16,520
then they're a poet.
When you met up, like, did you

399
00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:19,240
reflect on that experience or
did that kind of come to your?

400
00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:23,840
Recollection again at a slam.
Oh no, there's there's another

401
00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:25,680
event before that.
And I was like, I know that guy,

402
00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:28,880
I don't know how.
And then later on, it clicked,

403
00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:31,600
yeah, later on because he was
kind of coming in the poetry

404
00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:33,040
scene and I was like, come to
Solange.

405
00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:36,120
And he was like, oh, I bumped
into him last year.

406
00:22:36,120 --> 00:22:39,520
And I was telling him how I'm
like, not really in poetry

407
00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:40,600
anymore.
I don't want to be in the

408
00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:43,200
community.
And he was like, oh, that's sad

409
00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:46,040
to hear because like, to me, you
were a catalyst in, like,

410
00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:50,400
putting me back into words,
putting me back into music.

411
00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:52,320
And like, you know, he loves me
for that.

412
00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:55,560
And I think about that, and I
think about how a lot of people

413
00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:59,840
needed me to be that person.
Like, Manal was the person for

414
00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:02,720
that before me.
And like, I was striving hard

415
00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:06,480
to, like, just bring people up.
But then a lot of the time it's

416
00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:09,760
like when I'm doing that, I'm
not doing anything for myself.

417
00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:15,520
And I think about how much time
I've let go in not helping

418
00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:21,000
myself and just dedicating my
whole life to like poetry while

419
00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:24,440
working like a side job, hoping
that one day like, you know,

420
00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:27,720
this, this will turn into
something while I let my other

421
00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:31,200
dreams fade away.
And right now I'm like thinking

422
00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:34,080
more self-centered and thinking
more selfish.

423
00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:37,440
And I think that's good for a
person like me who's, who's done

424
00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:41,560
a lot and I'm just trying to
work on my own stuff now, which

425
00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:44,720
is beautiful.
But I've got on this, this kind

426
00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:49,520
of space and segregation of, of
who I am away from community in

427
00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:53,200
a, in a way.
So, but I think about how Timber

428
00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:57,120
said that and how that to a lot
of people, I am a catalyst and

429
00:23:57,280 --> 00:24:00,840
I'm somebody that has pushed
people to like go beyond what

430
00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:02,000
they thought they could go
beyond.

431
00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:05,720
I have just seeing that before
they could see it in themselves

432
00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:08,880
and pushing them on those those
days out with the features

433
00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:12,640
before they feature over like a
span of 10 years.

434
00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:17,480
And I'm like glad I did that
long run by the same time.

435
00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:21,960
Like if I didn't, I would have
been obscuring a lot, a lot

436
00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:27,240
faster if I if I just thought
more about myself and yeah,

437
00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:30,880
dedicated more time to myself.
And I'm thinking about like, so

438
00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:35,640
that's not who I am, but it is
who I am now, I guess because I

439
00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:38,880
have to.
It sounds like you're just

440
00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:41,480
transforming, mate.
Like I know a lot of what we're

441
00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:44,680
talking about here is, is you
looking back on your kind of

442
00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:47,560
heyday and your hot streak that,
that you're on.

443
00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:51,360
But you know, life isn't going
to be one thing or like one

444
00:24:51,360 --> 00:24:54,320
never ending hot streak.
So I think it's OK to change.

445
00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:56,560
And you know, we, we, we're
looking forward to hearing more

446
00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:58,560
about how you are changing and
what, what you're working on

447
00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:00,680
now.
I do want to know a bit more

448
00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:03,640
about the fact that, you know,
you have been based in Adelaide,

449
00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:08,080
you have been based in Melbourne
over the COVID years, the the

450
00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:12,240
worst years in Melbourne.
What have you appreciated about

451
00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:15,720
the art scenes in each city?
I mean, I know we're, we're very

452
00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:19,080
competitive as cities by nature.
So I'm not necessarily trying to

453
00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:22,160
get like a ranking system going,
but I am interested in like

454
00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:24,360
what?
What differences and what things

455
00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:27,120
have you found to appreciate?
Any it's hard to collaborate

456
00:25:27,120 --> 00:25:29,600
with people straight away in
Ghana country.

457
00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:33,680
Like it's hard sometimes, like a
lot of people here, they will

458
00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:37,880
think of ideas and it's hard to
like really get people to like

459
00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:40,200
commit.
Where I think in in Melbourne, a

460
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:42,840
lot of people, sometimes you
just talk to musicians and you'd

461
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:44,240
be like, oh, we could
collaborate.

462
00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:47,160
And they'll be like, all right,
what are you doing this Friday?

463
00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:50,240
Meet up in my garage.
And then Friday you're, you're

464
00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:53,040
like practicing and you're
jamming with these musicians and

465
00:25:53,360 --> 00:25:57,840
you're, you're developing like
like a band kind of bond that

466
00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:00,520
it's like, wow, like I could
never do this here.

467
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:03,840
It's really hard.
Like people were very closed off

468
00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:08,000
in in the city, but I think
about, I don't know, I was also

469
00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:10,680
in an urban art fair.
If you were talking about visual

470
00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:13,880
arts as well, as well as like
music and and dance.

471
00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:19,120
I think that like people are
able to apply for funding more

472
00:26:19,120 --> 00:26:23,960
so in Victoria than in SA
because a lot of the national

473
00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:27,360
grounds are like out when we're
doing our fringe.

474
00:26:27,360 --> 00:26:30,200
So all of the artists are
already like fully busy unless

475
00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:33,600
you're not doing fringe, which
which makes like no sense as an

476
00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:35,720
artist sometimes, but it's
whatever.

477
00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:41,480
I think it's like there's more
auspice agencies in, in

478
00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:44,040
Melbourne where in in Adelaide
there's only a few.

479
00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:47,680
So it's like, how are you going
to apply for a grant if you

480
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:50,200
don't have the connection to an
auspice agency?

481
00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:54,840
So I think also like the the
density in population and the

482
00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:59,080
love for art in Melbourne is
greater where like you've got

483
00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:02,000
like VCA there right here.
I feel like we've got a few

484
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:05,520
different schools, but it's like
you say, you're doing art for a

485
00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:07,800
living, people are going to like
look down at you.

486
00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:10,400
But I think that's anywhere in
the world except for maybe

487
00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:12,200
Melbourne.
Because Melbourne I feel like is

488
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:15,040
the art capital of like this
country.

489
00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:18,520
I don't know, like there's so
many opportunities that I just

490
00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:21,760
got to be a part of because I'm
a dancer.

491
00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:23,960
I'm like a multi disciplinary
artist.

492
00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:26,320
Like I ended up being in a
musical even though I Can't

493
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:29,000
Sing.
There's just so much happening

494
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:31,680
in in that city and I love it.
But it's like also it's like

495
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:37,520
there's no, no downtime to
really like, I don't know, be be

496
00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:41,000
in a solitary state where you
can refine your art to that next

497
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:42,760
level.
I feel that's what's missing.

498
00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:45,920
I think maybe if you go out into
like the regional areas,

499
00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:49,440
there'll be a difference.
But I felt like you didn't have

500
00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:52,480
room to breathe in that city.
But when, when I came back here,

501
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:56,320
everything felt so slow,
painfully slow, like what's

502
00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:57,520
happening?
There's nothing happening this

503
00:27:57,520 --> 00:27:58,840
week, What's happening next
week?

504
00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:00,120
Nothing's happening.
What do you mean?

505
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:01,360
Why are you asking what's
happening?

506
00:28:01,360 --> 00:28:04,840
It's like, I think it's like
there are events here.

507
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:08,600
There are monthly poetry events,
there are dance events.

508
00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:11,280
The dance scene in Melbourne is
crazy.

509
00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:15,200
There's a session every day,
which is unimaginable over here

510
00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:18,200
because it's like there's barely
any sessions that are on the

511
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:23,640
weekly and it's like maybe a
tournament once a year here

512
00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:26,680
where there there's like man,
like tournaments in every style

513
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:29,440
of dance.
Like I think that's that's what

514
00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:31,240
happens with the density of
population.

515
00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:34,440
But I think about Sydney, I
think I tried to do stuff in

516
00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:37,200
Sydney while I was there because
I drove all the way up there

517
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:41,960
from here and there was somebody
that was going to feature me for

518
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:44,280
an event and then they didn't
sell enough tickets for that so

519
00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:46,360
the event got cancelled.
But I stayed longer anyway.

520
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:49,920
I ended up doing like a mural
while I was there just because I

521
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:51,440
was like, I need to paint
something.

522
00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:53,600
The art in different cities are
very different.

523
00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:57,960
I think the talent is very,
very, it doesn't like represent

524
00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:02,400
the the way the population is
and how busy a place is

525
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:06,360
sometimes because it's like
throughout this city and it's I

526
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:11,400
guess lack of events, people are
more in tune with like

527
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:13,360
developing themselves
individually.

528
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:18,000
Where I feel like in Melbourne,
it's it's very performance

529
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:20,400
based.
Like a lot of the poetry events

530
00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:24,640
you guys have are slams.
And if not, they're time to like

531
00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:26,280
the stage.
And it's like you've only got

532
00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:28,680
these minutes and it's like
people are putting out the same

533
00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:31,360
poems all the time.
And it's like, I don't know,

534
00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:32,840
there's different scenes as
well.

535
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:36,240
There's like the very publishing
scene over there, There's the

536
00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:40,120
very slam scene.
There's like the small nitty

537
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:42,880
gritty like scenes that are all
around the suburbs.

538
00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:45,240
I miss that.
I miss all those events.

539
00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:50,800
It's a big city.
I think here people rarely work

540
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:56,360
on storytelling more than slam,
where it's more it's more about

541
00:29:57,120 --> 00:30:00,880
breaking the barriers of two
minutes, 3 minutes, and less

542
00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:06,640
about being that slam style,
that performance style, and more

543
00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:10,200
about just being yourself.
And I think in a way that's more

544
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:12,560
authentic and like, you know,
maybe I'm a little just to my

545
00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:15,120
city, but that's, that's how I
feel.

546
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:18,880
But there are like such
authentic poets I've made in

547
00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:20,640
Melbourne.
We do, all right.

548
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:22,640
I reckon.
I had a nightmare once about

549
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:24,440
being in a musical where I
couldn't sing.

550
00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:26,360
You know what I mean?
That that sounds super

551
00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:28,600
challenging.
Yeah.

552
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:33,800
Well, let's zoom in on Adelaide,
where you're based nowadays.

553
00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:38,320
You've been kind of a mainstay
at Adelaide Fringe Festival.

554
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:41,520
I know you're taking a year off
this year, but Fringe Festival,

555
00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:43,160
you know, being one of the
biggest in the world.

556
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:48,560
And back in 2024, you created a
visual exhibit for the Adelaide

557
00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:50,960
Fringe Festival.
I'd love to know more about

558
00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:54,800
this, especially like what
personal stories from your life

559
00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:59,000
formed the basis of that show.
I think this is what I'm kind of

560
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:02,200
getting into now.
Like the idea of these

561
00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:04,880
multitudes of arts is like
different communities.

562
00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:05,880
Everyone thinks they're
different.

563
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:08,200
Everyone like separate tribes,
like they're different

564
00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:10,760
countries.
And I think about fusing them

565
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:13,120
together.
I think the also the

566
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:17,520
communities, because it's like a
lot of like people that aren't

567
00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:20,840
in the Fine Arts communities
think that all these people are

568
00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:24,880
just like rich assholes or
they're just like, you know,

569
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:27,920
highbrow people.
It's like you can go to these

570
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:31,960
like artists that are like
getting exhibited at the NGV or

571
00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:37,560
at like the Australian Gallery
of SA and they're like just as

572
00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:40,640
St. as you.
And you wouldn't know it, but I

573
00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:42,920
think it's just like breaking
out of those communities.

574
00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:44,080
I think Melbourne does this
well.

575
00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:48,280
I think Melbourne kind of taught
me about this as a coward and

576
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:50,720
dancer.
His name is Journal and he once

577
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:54,400
told me like, hey, man, we're
doing this dance event.

578
00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:59,000
We got funding for a down down.
I think it was a foot scray at

579
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:02,680
the trying to remember like some
churchy building, but it was

580
00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:04,600
cool.
And he was like, I want you to

581
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:06,160
perform poetry at this dance,
man.

582
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:09,640
I'm like, you're crazy.
Hell no, we're not doing that.

583
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:11,240
I don't want to do this.
I'm not going to get

584
00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:13,320
embarrassed.
These people aren't going to get

585
00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:14,840
poetry.
We ain't going to get clicks

586
00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:16,160
from dancers, You know what I'm
saying?

587
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:19,240
Like, and he was just like, what
would make you do it?

588
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:22,600
I was like, if I do it, you have
to dance to my poetry.

589
00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:25,840
I guess that reflects back on
like, my experience was funny

590
00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:28,360
and her dancing in my poetry.
And he's like, all right.

591
00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:31,200
And then we practiced together.
He danced my poetry.

592
00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:33,000
And then afterwards, like, you
know what I should do?

593
00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:36,120
At the last verse?
I should hand you the mic, and

594
00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:37,800
then I should dance to your
poetry.

595
00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:41,080
And that was one of the derpest,
like, events I've been in, one

596
00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:43,120
of my favorite dancers.
He came up to me and went

597
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:45,160
highlight.
He was pointing me.

598
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:47,920
I was like, whoa, like, you're
one of my favorite dancers.

599
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:50,040
You think I was a highlight?
I didn't even dance that much.

600
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:53,720
I think it's just if poetry is
that powerful that can connect

601
00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:57,880
with another art through just
being itself and then other

602
00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:00,560
people can connect with it.
Just like if you bring a dancer

603
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:05,320
to a poetry jam that is just
like puts on that one song, just

604
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:10,320
gets into it, starts the intro
and then just everyone's just

605
00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:12,760
like locked on.
I think it's also like the vibe

606
00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:15,520
that when you're in a polisher
jam, everyone's like kind of

607
00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:17,720
quiet and attentive and they
absorb everything.

608
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:21,000
And then it's like you, you put
a dancer in that environment and

609
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:24,880
it's like, bam, we've got a
whole room that's like been

610
00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:27,800
drawn by their feelings.
And then there's just somebody

611
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:31,400
that's pushing out all their
emotions through dance and

612
00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:35,600
really like creating some kind
of visceral and like, and you

613
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:39,280
can't hear it right, but you see
it, you see this movement and

614
00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:41,680
you're like feeling it.
I think it's like there's a

615
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:44,960
border that we have always
imagined between us.

616
00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:47,160
I think it's the same with
artists.

617
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:50,760
I guess that's what made me do
the the exhibition.

618
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:54,920
I had a general manager of one
of the art galleries come to a

619
00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:57,480
poetry event that I was featured
of.

620
00:33:57,480 --> 00:33:59,360
And he was like, I really like
your poetry.

621
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:02,800
I want to give you an
opportunity to like create art,

622
00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:06,160
but with your words.
And I think it's like, as

623
00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:10,080
somebody that's always been like
curious about art, not really an

624
00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:11,600
artist.
I mean, like when I was in

625
00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:15,320
primary school, I was very much
good at 2D stuff.

626
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:18,000
And like my teachers would hold
up my work to the class and

627
00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:21,000
people will be like, whoa.
But then I like later just

628
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:23,880
detracted from that.
And I, I've always like wondered

629
00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:26,280
what happens if I like actually
fully went into it.

630
00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:31,840
And the exhibition I did at
Nexus, I really wanted it to be

631
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:35,560
involving in with community.
I don't want it to be just about

632
00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:40,000
me.
I went to do a call out to all

633
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:45,239
Filipinos like that had stuff
that was hidden away in their

634
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:49,040
closets and like stacked up and
plastic.

635
00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:51,040
And I was like, do you need
that?

636
00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:53,400
Are you going to use that?
And then, you know, they're

637
00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:55,000
going to be like 01 day
somebody.

638
00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:56,040
I'm like, nobody's going to use
it.

639
00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:59,280
Let me take it and paint on it.
Let me make art with it.

640
00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:05,160
And I started to kind of use my
poems to reflect on the art.

641
00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:08,680
So it was kind of like, it's
drastic, but it was reverse

642
00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:11,480
because a lot of people, I don't
know if you know what a drastic

643
00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:13,680
is.
It's when somebody writes a poem

644
00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:18,920
that's influenced by a painting
or a picture or photo, and it's

645
00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:22,440
like, it's always been kind of
more that way.

646
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:26,280
It's never been the opposite way
somebody paints in feeling

647
00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:29,440
response to a poem.
So that's what I wanted to focus

648
00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:31,960
it on.
So I had to paint my poems

649
00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:37,240
within these objects that were
just kind of going to waste.

650
00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:40,520
Or I'd cut them up into little
bits of wood.

651
00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:45,840
And I made a whole beaded
curtain out of these wooden

652
00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:49,200
slats that were like the size of
bookmarks.

653
00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:54,480
And then it was this whole kind
of entrance into the gallery.

654
00:35:54,840 --> 00:36:00,280
And on the back, I like,
stenciled a poem on each kind of

655
00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:06,560
bookmark size piece of wood
using the stain, and then like,

656
00:36:07,240 --> 00:36:11,920
filling out the letters so it
would look like I'd scratched

657
00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:14,600
all these letters into it.
People wouldn't know that

658
00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:16,760
they're walking through a poem
until they got to the end of the

659
00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:18,560
exhibition and they saw it right
at the end.

660
00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:21,640
I wanted people to be inspired
to be like, what, what can you

661
00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:25,640
do with your poems that isn't
just performing on a stage?

662
00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:29,920
What can you do besides, like,
riding on a wall?

663
00:36:30,720 --> 00:36:34,040
They said that like when I
launched the exhibition, it was

664
00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:37,040
one of the best launches they've
ever had because you had people

665
00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:40,040
that were from the poetry
community that would come and

666
00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:43,440
they'd say a poem.
You had people from the dance

667
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:45,320
community that had come and
they'd dance.

668
00:36:46,240 --> 00:36:47,840
I had a lot of that
intertwining.

669
00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:50,320
And then it was in a visual arts
area.

670
00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:55,080
So of course visual artists and
people in in that industry that

671
00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:56,440
were coming and they're all
seeing this.

672
00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:59,640
They're seeing people dancing,
people doing poems and they're

673
00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:03,000
like, this is crazy.
I think that's what I want to do

674
00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:05,680
more of.
It's really testing because it's

675
00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:12,320
like there's barely any like
pathway or idols that I have

676
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:15,440
that that kind of do this.
There are a few, there's a few

677
00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:20,200
break dances that will use their
moves to paint portraits on on

678
00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:24,480
these canvases on the floor.
But there's not much poets that

679
00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:28,800
go into visual arts without
cutting their words down.

680
00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:33,200
I think about that and I think
about when I was at Nexus doing

681
00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:37,040
this exhibition, a lot of the
time the manager was like, you

682
00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:40,080
don't have to use all the words,
you can cut it down.

683
00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:43,600
You don't have to spoon feed it.
And I think about that, I think

684
00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:46,080
about how much do we cut our
words down?

685
00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:48,640
So it gets into the time of the
two-minute mark.

686
00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:50,120
How much do we cut our words
down?

687
00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:53,080
So it's like people can have
their own space to like

688
00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:56,480
subjectively feel something from
the poem that is yours to make

689
00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:58,000
it something meaningful for
them.

690
00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:01,920
But then it's also like, people
aren't going to completely

691
00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:04,360
understand the art that you push
out.

692
00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:07,760
It's not going to be something
that's like, Oh yeah, I get

693
00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:09,280
that.
That's a sculpture of a hand.

694
00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:12,560
That's a painting of a fish.
And it's like sometimes it's not

695
00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:15,760
what the artist intended.
And there's no averting that in

696
00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:18,480
this one.
I think that's something we

697
00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:23,120
learned, but in poetry it's
almost like so definitive that

698
00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:25,200
you understand exactly what this
person says.

699
00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:27,600
So it kind of breaks those
bounds, and I think that's why

700
00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:30,160
people question it as an art.
But I don't know.

701
00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:34,240
And what about the name that you
gave to that Expo as well?

702
00:38:34,240 --> 00:38:35,880
Like where?
Where did that come from?

703
00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:40,120
I was thinking of calling it
something else because all the

704
00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:45,400
things, items, all the
belongings of a poet and I

705
00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:48,560
wanted it to be more about the
people around me.

706
00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:50,720
But it's like that just sounded
nice.

707
00:38:50,720 --> 00:38:54,600
Like I asked a lot of other
Filipinos like what do they

708
00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:56,640
think of this or what do they
think of the other title?

709
00:38:56,640 --> 00:39:01,160
And they, they thought this
title is very giving to like

710
00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:05,280
what what the remnants are of
like people that are trying to

711
00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:10,280
respond, people that are trying
to be artistic, people that are

712
00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:14,360
trying to weave words together.
And like, like the namesake

713
00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:17,720
Makata, it's in there.
So it's, it's very much about

714
00:39:17,720 --> 00:39:19,920
like my belongings.
So I had to learn my old poetry

715
00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:22,640
books that were just there on
display that people could like

716
00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:26,520
flip through and see my like
really cringe work of like my

717
00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:29,200
beginnings.
And a lot of it was like junk

718
00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:33,000
that was just turned into art.
So I think about just collecting

719
00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:37,880
stuff from community and I'm not
a visual artist, but I did that.

720
00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:41,480
And I, I think now that I'm like
really looking into like

721
00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:44,920
developing myself as a visual
artist, I'm glad that I kind of

722
00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:48,480
had my exhibition and like, I
don't need to prove myself.

723
00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:53,480
And I'm going in a certain path
where I'm like, filming myself

724
00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:58,480
painting, using dance and having
poetry that stands underneath

725
00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:02,680
that, and like trying to mix all
those different arts together.

726
00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:06,200
It's a hard journey because I
don't know if it's the right

727
00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:07,400
journey.
I don't know if I'm doing too

728
00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:08,560
much.
Maybe I'm doing too much.

729
00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:10,800
Maybe the general manager as
well.

730
00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:14,440
Like there's too many words.
Like we can't just put words on

731
00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:17,640
a canvas and be like, that's
art, right?

732
00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:19,160
Maybe.
Who knows?

733
00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:24,160
Well, all I know mate, is that
next time people see Macho

734
00:40:24,240 --> 00:40:28,240
Makata at, you know, in a Fringe
show, they need to be there

735
00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:30,040
front row.
That's that's all I know.

736
00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:38,840
Hey, quick pep talk.
If you're enjoying the episode,

737
00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:43,000
I'd love it if you could leave a
rating, review, comment, or like

738
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:45,280
wherever you're listening right
now.

739
00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:47,720
You know how this works.
Every little bit of digital

740
00:40:47,720 --> 00:40:51,200
interaction helps people to find
the show and keeps the poetry

741
00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:52,960
flowing.
And if you want to do something

742
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:55,760
extra special, please share the
episode with someone who you

743
00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:58,320
think will vibe with it.
That also helps with all of the

744
00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:00,480
above.
Thanks so much for listening and

745
00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:05,640
now back to our guest.
I think you're ready to hear

746
00:41:05,640 --> 00:41:10,240
your second piece, my friend.
OK, this one is from the show

747
00:41:10,240 --> 00:41:12,720
Journey.
Yeah, we talked a lot about it.

748
00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:16,760
Journey is about perspectives of
hurting, about the lessons,

749
00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:19,000
learning different nuances,
diverting, about a class of

750
00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:22,000
fools, loners, migrants,
bursting rhymes and minds

751
00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:24,800
expressing their worthy.
Journey isn't about the

752
00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:27,320
difference of you and me.
It's about the distance of you

753
00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:29,560
and me.
It's about the system of greed

754
00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:32,320
and capitalistic racism we're
facing subliminally,

755
00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:35,280
structurally and utterly with
ignorant beings.

756
00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:39,440
It's about the diversity of
struggle and not hiding behind

757
00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:42,480
the lines of a hand up, blind to
the times that we can't face.

758
00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:44,680
I'm tired of it.
When are we going to make up?

759
00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:48,480
When are we going to make it
make good, make it good enough

760
00:41:48,480 --> 00:41:51,840
for you to see the same in me as
you do in you?

761
00:41:55,240 --> 00:41:56,360
Good stuff.
Mate, thank you.

762
00:41:56,640 --> 00:41:58,280
Yeah.
Just a short one.

763
00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:00,160
That's how I would start the
show off.

764
00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:05,200
It'd be me, Prosper and Timber
like the way we started off.

765
00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:08,040
We just like one of us would
come in and be like yo soul

766
00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:11,520
brother #3 what it be.
And then Timber would come out

767
00:42:11,520 --> 00:42:13,480
and be like, yo, you talking to
me?

768
00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:18,040
So my brother #2 what it do?
And then Prosper, I think I got

769
00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:22,160
a mixed up between Prosper and
he'll be like soul brother #1

770
00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:24,520
let's get it done.
And then we'd say this like one

771
00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:27,640
of us would have a verse each
and then the last one, we'd say

772
00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:31,440
it together and just give such a
such an impact that you're about

773
00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:36,440
to see a really Dope Show.
I think it'd be dope to do

774
00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:38,360
something like that again.
Well, that's what you need.

775
00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:40,560
You need a punchy first scene,
don't you?

776
00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:44,160
I want to talk.
You mentioned dance as such an

777
00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:47,960
important element to yourself.
I want to zoom in on that.

778
00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:49,440
Now what?
What?

779
00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:52,920
What makes your connection to
dance special and how do you

780
00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:56,440
think it complements your
pursuit of the written or the

781
00:42:56,440 --> 00:43:00,600
spoken word?
Is it like a break from being

782
00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:04,560
too wordy or does it help you?
I guess so, yeah.

783
00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:07,080
It is a break from being too
wordy.

784
00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:10,120
I think, especially in the Crump
scene.

785
00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:13,880
There are like parallels with
poetry.

786
00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:19,400
I think about journal, I think
about me and other dancer slash

787
00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:23,200
poets and it's like when you're
in a in a poetry movement,

788
00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:26,920
people give you hype when they
feel your words of do this work

789
00:43:27,280 --> 00:43:31,920
in in the Crump scene, people
will yell be like, yo, like

790
00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:34,240
it'll just be very loud.
It's very different to the

791
00:43:34,240 --> 00:43:37,320
clicks because it's like, oh,
OK, I'm getting some response

792
00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:38,640
from the crowd.
I think about that.

793
00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:42,800
But like, how does a compliment?
I think it's just a break from,

794
00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:46,520
I think like every now and then
just pull up with a speaker,

795
00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:50,360
turn it on, invite a few
friends, just let out every

796
00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:53,880
every kind of physical immersion
in you that that you need.

797
00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:57,960
I think about the documentaries
I watched like Ryze growing up

798
00:43:58,520 --> 00:44:04,120
and understanding that dance was
an outlet that like subverted

799
00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:08,200
you away from doing crime, from
joining gangs, from selling

800
00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:11,680
drugs or or whatnot.
I think about how rough my

801
00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:15,560
childhood was and how like dance
is very needed in that sense

802
00:44:15,560 --> 00:44:19,840
that it's like, I really want to
make my life better and I really

803
00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:24,040
want to like be beyond this.
And I think that's also why I

804
00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:28,080
went full circle and I went back
to teach to the kids at juvie.

805
00:44:28,640 --> 00:44:33,280
I think about how we're using
language in another way and how

806
00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:39,560
dance can be poetic, how words
can have a rhythm that almost

807
00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:43,480
entangle each other, that like
cascade in a way.

808
00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:47,480
I think about the different
techniques used in poetry and

809
00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:51,560
repetition and how that's
similar to dance in a way, as

810
00:44:51,560 --> 00:44:55,080
well as like visual art as well.
It's like in everything, you

811
00:44:55,080 --> 00:44:57,640
need a pause.
So when dancers are just going

812
00:44:57,640 --> 00:45:00,280
chaotic, sometimes the most
powerful thing they can do is

813
00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:02,960
just stay still.
Just like when you're about to

814
00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:07,320
perform something and you want,
you want to make that pause and

815
00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:12,280
like hold it in the air, like
like you hurt me and just hold

816
00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:14,880
that.
And you can feel that tension.

817
00:45:15,120 --> 00:45:17,880
And it's just like when you go
to an art gallery and you see

818
00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:22,280
the paintings have some distance
of separation with each other.

819
00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:27,080
I think about how that relates,
how all these relate, how we

820
00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:33,040
need to just let the silence be
for a second, how we need to

821
00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:35,520
stay still for a second, how we
need distance.

822
00:45:35,520 --> 00:45:39,800
And I think a lot of people say
bilingual people have the better

823
00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:43,720
kind of understanding of English
because they're able to see

824
00:45:43,720 --> 00:45:45,800
outside of that.
I think that's the same with

825
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:49,360
dance and being part of these
other art forms and like really

826
00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:54,920
understanding the parallels of
of being uncomfortable on stage

827
00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:57,560
and knowing that this shows
power.

828
00:45:58,640 --> 00:46:01,560
It's opening up almost like a
negative space where you go, OK,

829
00:46:01,960 --> 00:46:04,920
I'm shutting up for a while.
I am in movement.

830
00:46:04,920 --> 00:46:08,960
I'm surrendering myself to a
different side of my brain or a

831
00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:10,920
different way that I like to do
things.

832
00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:15,040
And I think that helps you kind
of come around to the thing that

833
00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:18,960
you're taking about a break from
with, with new eyes and with a

834
00:46:18,960 --> 00:46:22,120
new, new perspective.
Fantastic insight, mate.

835
00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:26,240
Now I know you've talked a lot
about, you know, you've had many

836
00:46:26,240 --> 00:46:29,160
years of kind of being at the
forefront of organizing and

837
00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:33,440
advocating for people.
When you think about, I guess

838
00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:37,400
the work life trade-offs that
come with being an artist or a

839
00:46:37,400 --> 00:46:42,160
community organiser or producer,
what do you think is like 1

840
00:46:42,360 --> 00:46:45,920
boundary or system that you put
in place to protect your energy

841
00:46:45,920 --> 00:46:49,080
and creative output, to prevent
yourself from burning out I

842
00:46:49,080 --> 00:46:51,880
suppose.
That's a good question.

843
00:46:51,880 --> 00:46:56,200
I think I'm, I didn't really
think about this when I was

844
00:46:56,200 --> 00:46:58,840
running community.
I just thought I'd give 100% and

845
00:46:58,840 --> 00:47:02,240
then I'll give more and then
I'll keep going and then what's

846
00:47:02,240 --> 00:47:04,840
the worst that could happen?
I think it's just like you just,

847
00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:06,840
you don't have energy.
You just keep going.

848
00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:09,080
You just be there for the
people.

849
00:47:09,080 --> 00:47:13,120
I think like it's wack.
I didn't have any boundaries but

850
00:47:13,120 --> 00:47:15,640
it is what it is Did.
You hit a wall at any stage or

851
00:47:15,640 --> 00:47:18,920
several times, or.
I think I just got better at

852
00:47:18,920 --> 00:47:22,880
like what I missed out on.
Like it was like, OK, I didn't

853
00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:25,960
promote right this month.
Oh, OK, I didn't do the

854
00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:29,840
acknowledgement right this month
or like, OK, cool.

855
00:47:29,840 --> 00:47:31,360
We didn't get to connect with
the feature.

856
00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:33,680
It's like just trying to like
better myself.

857
00:47:33,680 --> 00:47:36,680
It's like for me it was like,
this is my purpose in life.

858
00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:39,560
And like while I'm working a
side job, it's like, I don't

859
00:47:39,560 --> 00:47:42,560
know, like I read a lot of
motivational books when I was in

860
00:47:42,560 --> 00:47:45,200
my teens.
I think about like how that kind

861
00:47:45,200 --> 00:47:49,920
of pushes me to like be somebody
that has a high drive to like

862
00:47:49,920 --> 00:47:53,920
just keep going, not give up,
even when everything feels like

863
00:47:54,400 --> 00:47:56,360
you've got no energy, you've got
nothing.

864
00:47:56,360 --> 00:48:00,560
And it's like just seeing the
the envision of like this is

865
00:48:00,560 --> 00:48:03,840
going to be a great event.
I also think about just before

866
00:48:03,840 --> 00:48:06,960
the event, like, you know, when
it's 655, the event starts at 7

867
00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:09,400
and everybody's there and you're
like got all this anxiety and

868
00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:12,000
people like people.
And then everyone just comes

869
00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:13,280
late.
Everyone comes.

870
00:48:13,280 --> 00:48:17,280
But it's just like that moment
of like, damn, why am I doing

871
00:48:17,280 --> 00:48:18,760
this?
It's it.

872
00:48:18,760 --> 00:48:21,360
Yeah.
It's just like a thrill and

873
00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:25,280
yeah, a downfall.
I feel like I did burn out once

874
00:48:25,280 --> 00:48:29,600
when we were doing the, the
poetry event between Solange

875
00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:34,120
Adelaide and Slamma Lama Ding
Dong, because I had to set up

876
00:48:34,120 --> 00:48:38,040
everything like tech wise for
myself and I had to like like I

877
00:48:38,040 --> 00:48:42,320
had to get to the venue at like
1 PMI was carrying speakers from

878
00:48:42,320 --> 00:48:44,760
my house and like back and
forth.

879
00:48:44,760 --> 00:48:47,880
I needed to get a new cord for
one of the speakers and we

880
00:48:47,880 --> 00:48:52,960
needed to set up like the the
way that the people would see

881
00:48:53,560 --> 00:48:57,760
people on the screen that were
in Nam that were like, you know,

882
00:48:57,920 --> 00:49:02,680
in COVID lockdown at the time.
But also to like set up the

883
00:49:02,680 --> 00:49:07,600
camera so it shoots the person
that's on the stage that's live.

884
00:49:07,640 --> 00:49:09,520
And it's like just doing all
that feedback.

885
00:49:09,520 --> 00:49:13,600
And then, I don't know, there
was like a lot of crazy stuff

886
00:49:13,600 --> 00:49:16,480
that happened in that event.
People got triggered, people

887
00:49:16,480 --> 00:49:18,520
left.
There weren't any people of

888
00:49:18,520 --> 00:49:22,240
color that slam Lama Ding Dong
Brown like they even though they

889
00:49:22,240 --> 00:49:24,320
said they'd bring them.
So a lot of people felt

890
00:49:24,320 --> 00:49:27,120
uncomfortable with that and
unsure like why that was.

891
00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:29,560
I think that's the only time I
got burnt out.

892
00:49:29,560 --> 00:49:31,840
I wasn't even the Hearst of the
event as well.

893
00:49:31,840 --> 00:49:33,520
It's just I think we're all
going through.

894
00:49:34,240 --> 00:49:36,160
I'm sure there are other times I
felt burned out.

895
00:49:36,160 --> 00:49:38,320
I'm tired.
I think you do have to say

896
00:49:38,320 --> 00:49:43,240
boundaries, but it's like at the
cost of what it's like, I don't

897
00:49:43,240 --> 00:49:44,600
know.
I don't think about myself and

898
00:49:44,600 --> 00:49:47,400
my, my own, like health and my
own safety much.

899
00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:49,480
And I, I think maybe that's an
issue.

900
00:49:49,480 --> 00:49:52,400
Maybe that's something that I
have the privilege of not

901
00:49:52,400 --> 00:49:55,640
thinking about as well.
Like I feel like ever since I

902
00:49:55,640 --> 00:49:59,680
was born, I'm I'm just a tool
that's used to like mend things

903
00:49:59,680 --> 00:50:02,800
or create things and it's like I
don't think of myself as a

904
00:50:02,800 --> 00:50:07,000
person sometimes, so.
OK, well it sounds like, yeah,

905
00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:10,360
you're still drawing out the
learnings and the wisdom from

906
00:50:10,400 --> 00:50:12,160
from everything that that you've
been through.

907
00:50:12,720 --> 00:50:13,600
Yeah.
And macho.

908
00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:16,920
You know, looking ahead, it's
evident that, you know, you're

909
00:50:16,920 --> 00:50:19,840
changing the things you do and
the way you do them.

910
00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:25,520
If you had to design like a five
year playbook for your I guess

911
00:50:25,520 --> 00:50:30,120
creative goals, what do you
think would be 3 non negotiable

912
00:50:30,520 --> 00:50:33,440
values or something that you
would put at the top of that

913
00:50:33,440 --> 00:50:36,400
playbook and why?
It reflection of what I was

914
00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:42,440
talking about like I think about
what I'm pushing myself to do as

915
00:50:42,440 --> 00:50:47,320
a visual artist developing and I
think about like just working

916
00:50:47,360 --> 00:50:51,240
harder than everybody around me.
I think about that as one of

917
00:50:51,240 --> 00:50:56,040
them.
I think about how hospitality

918
00:50:56,040 --> 00:50:58,520
and service jobs as well as
construction jobs have trained

919
00:50:58,520 --> 00:51:04,240
me to like work hard endlessly
with no, no room from complaint,

920
00:51:04,280 --> 00:51:09,440
you know, And I think about if I
put that kind of work ethic work

921
00:51:09,440 --> 00:51:13,440
style into art where it's like
I'm just pushing myself to the

922
00:51:13,440 --> 00:51:15,040
limits until like a certain
time.

923
00:51:15,640 --> 00:51:20,520
So I think it's just like work
till I die kind of vibes, but

924
00:51:21,080 --> 00:51:26,080
merging art, trying to explore
different senses of art as well

925
00:51:26,080 --> 00:51:31,760
as like exploring techniques
within the individual styles of

926
00:51:31,760 --> 00:51:35,120
art.
Like a lot of my ideas for the

927
00:51:35,120 --> 00:51:39,120
next three years is to not do
any, any performance, not to do

928
00:51:39,120 --> 00:51:42,120
any show, not to put myself out
there because I'm using this

929
00:51:42,120 --> 00:51:45,560
time for my solitary
development.

930
00:51:45,560 --> 00:51:47,320
So.
Solitude.

931
00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:51,960
Yeah, a part of it is just don't
put myself out there as much as

932
00:51:51,960 --> 00:51:55,440
I have been because I think we
lessen the value of ourselves

933
00:51:55,440 --> 00:51:58,720
the more we put it out there.
And we see it in some of the

934
00:51:58,840 --> 00:52:03,400
the, the most popular poets that
we know, like they share things

935
00:52:03,400 --> 00:52:07,520
like once a month maybe.
I think if you put out too much

936
00:52:07,520 --> 00:52:10,600
content, that's it.
Like kind of, I don't know.

937
00:52:10,680 --> 00:52:14,160
Like I think it's just like, I'm
just trying to move in silence

938
00:52:14,160 --> 00:52:17,240
and just really like explore
what I'm feeling, what I'm

939
00:52:17,240 --> 00:52:21,720
thinking, what I've learned
into, into play, into paint,

940
00:52:21,720 --> 00:52:28,560
into wood, into the fusion of
these arts into like creating

941
00:52:28,560 --> 00:52:31,240
beats, into trying to edit
videos.

942
00:52:31,240 --> 00:52:36,080
And I haven't posted at all.
And I think I don't have to, I

943
00:52:36,080 --> 00:52:38,640
don't have to share the world
what I'm doing all the time.

944
00:52:38,640 --> 00:52:43,840
I think about the fact that I'm
just enjoying my own art, my my

945
00:52:43,840 --> 00:52:46,240
own sake.
And and that's like a beautiful

946
00:52:46,240 --> 00:52:49,520
privilege that like I haven't
been able to do since I was a

947
00:52:49,520 --> 00:52:54,200
kid.
So maybe in the fourth year, put

948
00:52:54,200 --> 00:52:57,040
something out there, do an
exhibition just like I did, but

949
00:52:57,520 --> 00:53:00,840
have more visual artists that
are a part of it, have more

950
00:53:01,680 --> 00:53:05,720
dancers that are a part of it.
Have more poets that don't know

951
00:53:05,760 --> 00:53:09,120
their poets.
One thing I loved was meaning

952
00:53:09,120 --> 00:53:11,520
people on the street or meaning
people in real life and being

953
00:53:11,520 --> 00:53:13,840
like, you know what, you, you
write poetry, you don't know

954
00:53:13,920 --> 00:53:15,640
you, you got, I've seen your
notes.

955
00:53:15,640 --> 00:53:19,120
And then bringing them to a
thing where it like kind of show

956
00:53:19,120 --> 00:53:22,360
up on those people that are like
very like egotistical poets.

957
00:53:22,360 --> 00:53:24,360
They're like, oh, I'm one of the
best.

958
00:53:24,720 --> 00:53:28,040
This is what I do.
And I think it's like, I live by

959
00:53:28,040 --> 00:53:29,480
this.
This is a 2 pack quote.

960
00:53:30,000 --> 00:53:32,240
You're not better than anyone
else, but at the same time,

961
00:53:32,240 --> 00:53:35,120
nobody is better than you.
And I think it brings us to

962
00:53:35,120 --> 00:53:38,560
that, that equal level of like,
you shouldn't like step over

963
00:53:38,560 --> 00:53:40,640
people, but you shouldn't let
yourself be stepped over.

964
00:53:41,040 --> 00:53:45,640
I think about how I meet a lot
of people.

965
00:53:45,760 --> 00:53:50,000
There's a girl I'm at a cafe
that I go to, and she just, she

966
00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:54,960
talks about how she writes poems
in her mother tongue, which is

967
00:53:54,960 --> 00:53:56,320
Spanish because she's from
Chile.

968
00:53:56,320 --> 00:54:01,920
And I'm like, I used to run
events just for, like, people

969
00:54:01,920 --> 00:54:04,240
like you.
And she's just like, I just, I

970
00:54:04,240 --> 00:54:07,080
don't know, like, I'm like, I
want to hear your poem next time

971
00:54:07,080 --> 00:54:08,720
I see you.
And it's just, like making that

972
00:54:08,720 --> 00:54:11,040
connection.
So it's like my community isn't

973
00:54:11,040 --> 00:54:15,600
in, like, a particular event.
It's in just meeting people on

974
00:54:15,600 --> 00:54:19,400
my daily and being able to hear
what stories they tell me, what

975
00:54:19,400 --> 00:54:22,200
poems they bring up.
I always just want to hear

976
00:54:22,200 --> 00:54:23,680
another poem, I guess.
Yeah.

977
00:54:33,240 --> 00:54:36,680
Well, you know what they say.
Real GS move in silence like

978
00:54:36,680 --> 00:54:38,200
lasagna.
That's all I'll say.

979
00:54:38,200 --> 00:54:42,560
So there's nothing wrong with
solitude.

980
00:54:42,560 --> 00:54:45,760
There's nothing wrong that if
you know, if this is a season of

981
00:54:46,200 --> 00:54:48,800
not talking much about what
you're up to, that's completely

982
00:54:48,800 --> 00:54:51,840
valid mate.
And yeah, look forward to seeing

983
00:54:51,840 --> 00:54:54,600
or not seeing, you know what,
what comes out of it, what comes

984
00:54:54,600 --> 00:54:56,800
out of it and what what change
it might sparking you.

985
00:54:57,360 --> 00:55:01,360
I want to bring you into the
overarching creative analogy

986
00:55:01,360 --> 00:55:03,160
that we've been doing for season
3.

987
00:55:03,880 --> 00:55:06,280
So macho.
If your creative work is a

988
00:55:06,280 --> 00:55:10,520
colour or a shade on the colour
spectrum, what colour do you

989
00:55:10,520 --> 00:55:17,120
think it is and why?
Oh, that's a hard one.

990
00:55:17,240 --> 00:55:19,880
I think it's purple.
I think it's like Violet.

991
00:55:20,080 --> 00:55:25,200
Maybe it could be lime green,
where I think it changes

992
00:55:25,200 --> 00:55:29,840
constantly between lime green,
purple and another color I

993
00:55:29,840 --> 00:55:32,800
haven't discovered yet.
In different ways, different

994
00:55:32,800 --> 00:55:34,640
colors showing different styles
of art.

995
00:55:34,640 --> 00:55:40,080
I think poetically, a lot of my
stuff is like sky blue with a

996
00:55:40,080 --> 00:55:43,440
deep red that's kind of
overwhelming it.

997
00:55:44,320 --> 00:55:45,880
Yeah.
What do you what do you get when

998
00:55:45,880 --> 00:55:49,040
you it's blue?
And red, I mean, it is kind of

999
00:55:49,160 --> 00:55:51,880
purpley, isn't it?
Yeah.

1000
00:55:52,240 --> 00:55:55,120
That's the way we're leading.
Are we talking like like royal

1001
00:55:55,120 --> 00:55:57,320
royal purple, purple, like
Cadbury purple?

1002
00:55:57,680 --> 00:56:00,600
Yeah, I think so.
I don't know, Like I've always

1003
00:56:00,600 --> 00:56:04,960
thought purple's the color of
mystery, but recently learned it

1004
00:56:04,960 --> 00:56:08,840
was just like a color of the
richness because it's like it

1005
00:56:08,840 --> 00:56:10,720
takes so much to make that
color.

1006
00:56:11,440 --> 00:56:14,120
I just, I don't know, I vibe
with purple so hard.

1007
00:56:14,120 --> 00:56:18,560
And I feel like, yeah, that red
and blue, that, that contrast of

1008
00:56:18,560 --> 00:56:24,240
like that peace and that like
desolateness.

1009
00:56:24,720 --> 00:56:30,440
It is kind of me, whether it is
in poetry, in dance, in visual

1010
00:56:30,440 --> 00:56:32,880
art, in sculpture, it's.
Yeah.

1011
00:56:32,880 --> 00:56:36,600
A lot of my stuff is very like
hoping for peace, but like

1012
00:56:36,640 --> 00:56:42,800
ultimately accepting the
destruction of life and the way

1013
00:56:42,800 --> 00:56:44,760
things are.
So I feel it's purple.

1014
00:56:44,760 --> 00:56:46,160
I don't know if that's a royal
purple.

1015
00:56:46,160 --> 00:56:50,440
I feel like it's a it's a
violent purple, maybe a Violet

1016
00:56:50,440 --> 00:56:52,200
purple.
Dried blood, Purple.

1017
00:56:52,440 --> 00:56:55,520
Yeah, dried.
Maybe it's just a colour that we

1018
00:56:55,600 --> 00:56:57,200
have to.
We've yet to find.

1019
00:56:57,200 --> 00:56:59,640
It's on some some ultraviolet
spectrum or something.

1020
00:56:59,640 --> 00:57:01,960
And then we'll be able to match
it perfectly one day.

1021
00:57:01,960 --> 00:57:06,480
Who knows?
We now come to the segments

1022
00:57:06,480 --> 00:57:08,440
shamelessly ripped off Diary of
a CEO.

1023
00:57:08,720 --> 00:57:14,560
It is Diary of a POET so macho
you've been left a a question

1024
00:57:14,560 --> 00:57:18,280
from my previous guest.
So this comes from fellow

1025
00:57:18,280 --> 00:57:21,280
Adelaide poetry scholar Jordan
Thompson.

1026
00:57:21,600 --> 00:57:27,360
He asks, does poetry evoke
emotion or is it the results of

1027
00:57:27,360 --> 00:57:29,200
emotions?
It's the ultimate chicken and

1028
00:57:29,200 --> 00:57:30,640
egg question.
What do you reckon?

1029
00:57:31,280 --> 00:57:33,160
Can I say both?
I've been thinking about this

1030
00:57:33,160 --> 00:57:37,280
question all night.
I think about how poetry does

1031
00:57:37,280 --> 00:57:38,880
evoke emotion.
When you hear it from others,

1032
00:57:38,880 --> 00:57:42,200
even when you say your own poem,
you can reflect back and it hits

1033
00:57:42,200 --> 00:57:44,720
you twice as hard.
It's like you're saying

1034
00:57:44,720 --> 00:57:48,880
something that's like a mirror.
But also like a lot of my

1035
00:57:48,880 --> 00:57:52,840
writings come from like just
feeling my emotions and putting

1036
00:57:52,840 --> 00:57:55,720
them into poetry.
So that's my answer.

1037
00:57:55,720 --> 00:57:57,640
Both it's, it's, it's both of
them.

1038
00:57:58,000 --> 00:58:00,160
Like I like this is a trick
question.

1039
00:58:00,160 --> 00:58:02,480
Yeah, I'm tempted to call you a
fence sitter, but no, I know

1040
00:58:02,480 --> 00:58:03,720
exactly where you're coming
from.

1041
00:58:05,160 --> 00:58:07,480
Both end.
We transcend such categories.

1042
00:58:07,480 --> 00:58:11,000
That's what we do as artists,
macho.

1043
00:58:11,000 --> 00:58:14,440
If, if people want to find out
more about you, it sounds like,

1044
00:58:14,440 --> 00:58:16,440
you know, you might be going
underground for a bit.

1045
00:58:16,440 --> 00:58:20,320
But if if they did want to hear
a little bit more about what

1046
00:58:20,320 --> 00:58:22,760
you've done over the years or
maybe what you're getting up to

1047
00:58:22,800 --> 00:58:27,320
now, are there any particular
places or spaces or realms where

1048
00:58:27,320 --> 00:58:29,760
they should head?
Yeah, like I've had my

1049
00:58:29,760 --> 00:58:32,960
SoundCloud up for a bit.
So if you just look at my name

1050
00:58:32,960 --> 00:58:38,520
on SoundCloud, Macho Mercado or
on my Instagram, yeah, Macho

1051
00:58:38,520 --> 00:58:41,200
Mercado, that's where you can
find me.

1052
00:58:41,200 --> 00:58:43,720
You can feel free to message me
if you're curious about

1053
00:58:43,720 --> 00:58:45,480
anything.
Even if you think you're

1054
00:58:45,480 --> 00:58:50,400
annoying, just say something.
I'm planning to put out like an

1055
00:58:50,440 --> 00:58:55,160
art diary on WordPress or
something because I've just been

1056
00:58:55,920 --> 00:58:59,160
writing a whole bunch of Diaries
on the process of creating arts.

1057
00:59:00,120 --> 00:59:02,040
There's a few things, but
they're not going to be out for

1058
00:59:02,040 --> 00:59:04,520
a while.
So but like, I guess I'll link

1059
00:59:04,520 --> 00:59:06,480
them on my my Instagram when
they're out.

1060
00:59:06,480 --> 00:59:10,720
I'm doing some game design stuff
as well so I might be coming up

1061
00:59:10,720 --> 00:59:12,760
with a game.
One of the best games in the

1062
00:59:12,760 --> 00:59:15,480
world has just come out from
Adelaide being the Hollow Night

1063
00:59:15,480 --> 00:59:17,880
Silk song.
So you got your, got your work

1064
00:59:17,880 --> 00:59:21,080
cut out.
Yeah, I'm not competing with

1065
00:59:21,080 --> 00:59:22,920
them.
I'm just making a very nice

1066
00:59:22,920 --> 00:59:26,760
niche narrative indie game.
I'm not making anything that's

1067
00:59:27,120 --> 00:59:30,960
superb and and yeah, Hollow
Nights expectations.

1068
00:59:30,960 --> 00:59:33,000
That's huge.
Yeah, I don't I'm not competing

1069
00:59:33,000 --> 00:59:33,600
with that.
Yeah.

1070
00:59:33,640 --> 00:59:36,640
But it's it's great that you
know that it's great that that's

1071
00:59:36,640 --> 00:59:39,080
acknowledged.
Yeah, Instagram.

1072
00:59:39,160 --> 00:59:41,320
That's it.
That's all I'm really kind of

1073
00:59:41,320 --> 00:59:45,040
active on.
But my sound thought is there

1074
00:59:45,040 --> 00:59:48,840
and I I have the recordings up
there, so no matter what, you

1075
00:59:48,840 --> 00:59:51,960
can always hear my voice.
It's always a way to to hear

1076
00:59:51,960 --> 00:59:53,960
you.
Well, we'll have links for all

1077
00:59:53,960 --> 00:59:55,960
of that in the episode
description as well.

1078
00:59:56,480 --> 01:00:00,960
And that's our time is is coming
to a swift end, but we do want

1079
01:00:00,960 --> 01:00:04,640
to hear your third and final
piece before we bid farewell.

1080
01:00:04,960 --> 01:00:07,080
This has been great.
Thank you so much for having me.

1081
01:00:07,080 --> 01:00:10,920
Thank you for the beautiful
questions and yeah, the space.

1082
01:00:11,640 --> 01:00:16,560
All right, one last poem.
I guess this reflects on on a

1083
01:00:16,560 --> 01:00:18,320
lot of things.
I'm just wanting to hear another

1084
01:00:18,320 --> 01:00:23,040
person's poem.
And yeah, it's my favorite

1085
01:00:23,040 --> 01:00:24,840
piece.
And I think it's a piece that

1086
01:00:24,840 --> 01:00:28,720
was developed through just
sharing people's pieces in my

1087
01:00:28,720 --> 01:00:33,480
community and just taking that
in and really like wanting to

1088
01:00:33,480 --> 01:00:38,280
empower people in my community
to like, not be afraid to share

1089
01:00:38,680 --> 01:00:43,400
what they don't know is poetry.
I want to hear a poem.

1090
01:00:44,040 --> 01:00:46,200
I want to hear a poem about
everything I don't know.

1091
01:00:46,200 --> 01:00:48,120
I want to hear a poem that's not
just for sure.

1092
01:00:48,120 --> 01:00:50,160
I want to hear a poem that will
make me feel something.

1093
01:00:50,160 --> 01:00:52,720
You make me understand another's
culture, another country's

1094
01:00:52,720 --> 01:00:54,640
truths.
I want to hear a poem about who

1095
01:00:54,640 --> 01:00:56,720
you are deep inside.
I want to know about your

1096
01:00:56,720 --> 01:00:58,440
traditions, where your heritage
lies.

1097
01:00:58,440 --> 01:01:00,320
I don't want to hear the sweet,
blissful issues.

1098
01:01:00,320 --> 01:01:03,200
I want to hear about the
war-torn struggles, the bombs

1099
01:01:03,200 --> 01:01:06,120
and the pistols.
I want you to take me where

1100
01:01:06,120 --> 01:01:10,320
everyone is afraid to go.
I want you to show me what it is

1101
01:01:10,320 --> 01:01:13,000
you call home.
I want to hear a poem.

1102
01:01:13,280 --> 01:01:15,440
I want to feel the pain in your
voice delivered to many

1103
01:01:15,440 --> 01:01:17,360
strangers that have no idea of
having no choice.

1104
01:01:17,560 --> 01:01:19,720
I want to hear you screaming
anguish of the subtle scenes

1105
01:01:19,720 --> 01:01:21,640
your real life and how when you
came here, everything is

1106
01:01:21,640 --> 01:01:22,800
different.
But that doesn't mean it's

1107
01:01:22,800 --> 01:01:24,120
right.
It doesn't mean it's why.

1108
01:01:24,120 --> 01:01:25,680
It doesn't mean things are all
dandy, mate.

1109
01:01:25,680 --> 01:01:28,560
Hello, goodbye.
I want to hear a poem.

1110
01:01:29,080 --> 01:01:31,240
I want to hear a poem that makes
you stand up to the comfortable,

1111
01:01:31,240 --> 01:01:33,240
makes you reach those
uncomfortable, makes them feel

1112
01:01:33,240 --> 01:01:34,720
lovable.
I want to hear a poem about

1113
01:01:34,720 --> 01:01:37,840
heart breaks between traditions,
of countries, between provinces

1114
01:01:37,840 --> 01:01:39,560
that are suffering and those
that are hungry.

1115
01:01:39,560 --> 01:01:43,520
About how love is expensive
except to those with money.

1116
01:01:44,080 --> 01:01:46,320
I want to hear a poem that'll
make these people feel

1117
01:01:46,320 --> 01:01:48,600
something.
I want to hear a poem.

1118
01:01:48,920 --> 01:01:51,320
I want to hear a poem that'll
open the eyes of those around

1119
01:01:51,320 --> 01:01:53,640
through the ear drums.
Of the sound of your voice being

1120
01:01:53,640 --> 01:01:56,480
proud of the dirt roads that
you've stepped from, Of the

1121
01:01:56,480 --> 01:01:58,520
hecklers you've been stepped on.
With those that don't know how

1122
01:01:58,520 --> 01:01:59,760
things go.
On the other side of the

1123
01:01:59,760 --> 01:02:03,680
spectrum, I want to hear a poem.
I want to hear a poem about how

1124
01:02:03,680 --> 01:02:06,280
everyone thinks you got it.
How you can't pay your rent,

1125
01:02:06,480 --> 01:02:08,920
find a job, but everyone thinks
you're so exotic.

1126
01:02:09,600 --> 01:02:11,560
I want to hear a poem.
So if you've got something

1127
01:02:11,560 --> 01:02:14,440
cultured, something inspiring
and something global, if you've

1128
01:02:14,440 --> 01:02:16,680
got something insightful,
something you think you can rock

1129
01:02:16,680 --> 01:02:18,880
the mic to, something that may
make others not like you because

1130
01:02:18,880 --> 01:02:21,520
it's so hard to speak the damn
truth, I want to hear you.

1131
01:02:21,800 --> 01:02:23,840
I want to hear a poem that
brings fear to the crop, that

1132
01:02:23,840 --> 01:02:28,240
shows in January of luster,
shows the struggle of a girl of

1133
01:02:28,240 --> 01:02:29,520
color and everything they
suffer.

1134
01:02:29,520 --> 01:02:33,400
I want to hear a poem.
I want to hear a poem.

1135
01:02:33,400 --> 01:02:36,440
Intellectually stimulating but
culturally invigorating, almost

1136
01:02:36,440 --> 01:02:38,160
insinuating or saying something
deep.

1137
01:02:38,160 --> 01:02:40,440
They even the streets get scared
when they hear you read.

1138
01:02:40,440 --> 01:02:44,200
I want to hear a poem.
I want to hear a poem from

1139
01:02:44,200 --> 01:02:47,280
someone indigenous about how
having no privilege gets you

1140
01:02:47,280 --> 01:02:49,440
from being a witness to take you
into prison.

1141
01:02:49,440 --> 01:02:52,800
And when you speak in your
native tongue, nobody listens.

1142
01:02:53,360 --> 01:02:57,760
I want to hear a poem.
I want to hear a poem that

1143
01:02:57,760 --> 01:03:00,200
examines the struggles of an
Asian family bargaining the

1144
01:03:00,200 --> 01:03:02,600
eldest daughter for a chance to
get through the hell before them

1145
01:03:02,920 --> 01:03:05,360
to a wealthy donor is looking
for love and a place full of

1146
01:03:05,360 --> 01:03:07,760
trauma to bring her here.
And of course, she's all for

1147
01:03:07,760 --> 01:03:10,160
everything works out and two
newborns who barely know who

1148
01:03:10,160 --> 01:03:13,080
they are because the way
Australia laughs A cultural ways

1149
01:03:13,080 --> 01:03:16,240
that are straight from here
because they accept diversity.

1150
01:03:16,240 --> 01:03:19,160
But these tongues that are not
clear, these ones they fear.

1151
01:03:20,320 --> 01:03:24,320
Oh wait, that's how I got here.
I want to hear a poem.

1152
01:03:26,040 --> 01:03:28,440
I want to hear a poem about
identity and how it's like a

1153
01:03:28,440 --> 01:03:31,200
butterfly, so easy a picture
floating by but so hard to

1154
01:03:31,200 --> 01:03:34,600
define, so hard to capture and
even harder to dissect.

1155
01:03:34,600 --> 01:03:37,040
I know they haven't captured it
yet, but it feels like they've

1156
01:03:37,040 --> 01:03:39,600
opened up my chest and I don't
know what they've put in here to

1157
01:03:39,600 --> 01:03:42,200
replace.
But now when I look inside

1158
01:03:42,200 --> 01:03:44,000
myself, it doesn't feel the
same.

1159
01:03:45,400 --> 01:03:48,760
So tell me a poem that will make
me shake whatever place, make me

1160
01:03:48,760 --> 01:03:52,000
feel more awake to the troubles.
I haven't had the face.

1161
01:03:52,000 --> 01:03:54,960
I want to hear a poem.
Thank you very much.

1162
01:03:55,720 --> 01:04:00,040
Yeah, and I know that, you know,
you got the opportunity to share

1163
01:04:00,040 --> 01:04:03,880
that poem at the Australian
Poetry Slam final in 2024.

1164
01:04:04,280 --> 01:04:07,840
And that's what really made my
ears prick prick up at the time

1165
01:04:07,840 --> 01:04:10,040
and and go, hey, I've I've I've
got to talk to macho.

1166
01:04:10,040 --> 01:04:13,600
I think Macho Makata, this has
been a blast.

1167
01:04:13,920 --> 01:04:16,320
Thank you so much for thinking
with us and slamming with us

1168
01:04:16,320 --> 01:04:17,240
today.
Awesome.

1169
01:04:17,320 --> 01:04:18,960
Thanks, Andrew.
It's been a pleasure.

1170
01:04:26,080 --> 01:04:27,920
Weetabix.
Fans, what's that all about?