Joel McKerrow - A Poet’s Guide to Professional Growth

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Oh, captain, my captain, welcome
to I think Therefore I Slam, the

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podcast bringing you the best
slam poetry and spoken word

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artists from Australia and
beyond.

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I am giddy today, people,
because my guest today has

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probably been name dropped on
this podcast more than any

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single person.
And long time listeners will

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know that there's a certain
magic in that that people tend

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to gravitate towards the show
after that happens.

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He's also the very first slam
pod that I ever saw doing his

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thing, and for years, you know
when I thought of the definition

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of slam poet, my guest face
appeared.

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From the Sydney Opera House to
Nashville Shermerhorn Symphony

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Centre to the Metropolis in
Montreal, my guest has spent the

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last 15 years on global stages
captivating hundreds of

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thousands of people with his
passionate performative style

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and highly inspiring keynotes.
He is simply one of Australia's

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most successful performance
poets, having represented the

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country at the individual World
Poetry Slam Championships, as

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well as being the Victorian
Tasmanian Vice President of

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Professional Speakers Australia.
He has published 7 poetry slash

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music albums and is now
transitioned into a children's

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author with the first book in a
new trilogy out now through

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Penguin Random House.
When I first met him he had a

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lovely hair of dreadlocks, but
they are a thing of the past.

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We'll get into that.
Joe Aquero, welcome on.

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It is fantastic to be here,
Andrew.

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Thanks so much for having me.
Joe, so much to talk about.

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I'm I'm so glad to have just a
little sliver of your time in

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what I'm sure is an absolute
packed schedule for you.

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You know, you're, you're, you're
bouncing around the country for

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the book launch.
How is it going?

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It's going really well.
Yeah, really good.

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So Heist is for yeah, it's for
teenagers.

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So it's not a a poetry book, but
all my writing is very poetic

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and lyrical, even if it's kind
of a commercial heist story.

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So it's like Mission Impossible
meets Charlie and the Chocolate

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Factory for teenagers.
And it's, it seems like it's

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going really well.
I'm loving bringing it out into

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the world.
Brilliant.

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Like like Charlie and the
Chocolate Factory?

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Does it have like a really
trippy scene in the tunnel?

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Not quite, though I do love that
scene and I do love with Charlie

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and the Chocolate Factory that
this, this old, quirky, cranky,

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slightly crazy man is, well,
he's killing kids off right in

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front of their parents.
They're just getting killed off

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1 by 1 by 1.
And and we just take that and

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go, oh, yeah, that's fine.
They can drown in the chocolate

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and they can get exploded and
all the kind of things.

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It's it's great.
What a good story.

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Roald Dahl.
Was was a madman and and

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certainly fuelled the the
nightmare fuel of our childhood.

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Totally all.
Right.

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Well, Joel, you're going to hit
us with the first of your three

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pieces that you've you've
brought with you today.

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Is there anything you wanted to
preamble this one with?

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Well, I'll just, I'll preamble
it by saying, so one of the

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major things that I love to do,
I do a lot of speaking as well,

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corporate speaking, keynote
speaking for events and

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conferences is one of the major
things that I do and, and also

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MC ING.
So I love kind of integrating my

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poetry these days in with both
keynote speaking and MC ING.

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So what I would say is as a, as
an MC, I would come onto the

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stage and I would say welcome to
the event or whatever it might

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be.
But as as a poet, as a poet, I

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say this moment is an
invitation.

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It is an offering, holding out
its hand before you, beckoning

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you to slow down, exhale,
Breathe into this, Lean into

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this.
See, my fear is that you'll miss

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it.
Blink and you'll skip it.

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Disregard it, not notice.
Get on with your day.

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Like, well, like nothing has
changed.

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As somebody once said, is it
possible that we can live our

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whole lives and never really
meet the person who is living

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that life?
Is it possible you've lived your

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whole life and never met the
person who is living that life?

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But what if?
What if right now, in the words

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that are spoken, in the wisdom
that is shared in the stories

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laid bare, What if this was a
moment for you to meet yourself

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again, greet yourself again, a
seed planted again into the

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depth of who you are?
For if something is germinating

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inside us, then entropy and our
apathy shall not define us.

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What I am saying is, if you let
it, this moment may just blow

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the dust from your veins.
It may change the way you see

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this world.
It may give you new eyes by

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which you see yourself.
If you let it.

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If you let it, this moment, the
present, may be the moment that

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your life changes.
Should you give yourself here

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now, when everything in life
wants to take you away from here

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now?
Come with open hands and embrace

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the moment like it was a lover,
like it was your father, like it

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was your child, like it was
someone who meant everything to

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you.
This moment is an offering, and

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it is stirring the ache that is
inside you for something more,

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for something else, for
something bigger, for something

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larger than you ever thought
this moment could be.

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That is the offering of today.
Oh, that's.

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What I'm talking about that is
that is the Joel Mccaro MC

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Magic.
Oh, I've got I've got

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goosebumps, my friend.
Now.

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Now, Joel, I first came across
your pathway way back in 2011.

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You were, you were lecturing or
you were guest lecturing at like

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a theological college that I was
studying at at the time.

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We can get a bit more to that
later, but I know that you've

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crossed the paths of many former
guests on the show.

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Ren Rapture spoke about you.
John and Glaze also spoken about

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you.
One of the most humbling things

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when when I've performed is that
a friend of mine very kindly

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said, Hey, you kind of sound
like Joe Mccaro when you.

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It was very, very nice to hear.
And so I'm wondering I didn't

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tell you I was going to do this
job, but would you human me?

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I would love to show you my my
refined impression of you.

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Is that OK?
I would love it.

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I love seeing people's
impression of me.

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That sounds crazy.
OK, OK.

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I mean this with love.
They say, you know, imitation's

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the sincerest form of flattery.
So I'm going to do a short

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little excerpt from a a piece
that you wrote called for

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tomorrow.
So here's my Joel Makero,

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everyone.
I met a man who saw the world

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differently so I sat cross
legged at his feet and he told

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me remember the past but cast
your eyes forward for tomorrow

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our hope shall be allowed a
voice than our apathy.

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Our apathy shall finally take a
step forward and our steps

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forward shall lead us somewhere,
mean us something.

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The whole demeaning like friends
hold each other crying.

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I am crying for this world to
change.

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Tears of empathy, sometimes
apathy.

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I cry today for Tomulo.
Even these tears shall be wiped

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from our faces.
Lift your cheeks.

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Though they are wet, there is
one who shall collect them.

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Yet hold them in his hands and
call it the ocean.

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Beautiful my beautiful I.
Think that was hilarious?

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I've been wanting to show you
that for a while, so I thought

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I'd I love it.
But you know what, it also

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speaks to the fact that for all
of us and for any of your

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listeners who are beginning in
the poetry scene and beginning

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to figure out their voice, the
way we work out our voice, I

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think it's the same as like, so
like identity formation in terms

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of how we come to know
ourselves.

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We come to know our own
individual selves, our own

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identity through those who are
around us.

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We, they are a mirror that
reflect back to us who we could

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be in the world.
And then we navigate our way out

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of that.
And I think it's the same with

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the artistic voice, the poetic
voice, the creative voices.

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You figure out your voice as
mirrors with mirrors around you,

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the people that you're hearing,
the people you are listening to

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and intaking.
I heard a bit of in your intro,

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I heard a bit of Shane Koizan in
there was massive for me at the

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beginning and guys like Anis
Mujgani and a whole lot of other

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different poets that I
absolutely emulated because I

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think it was my way to find my
voice, my way to go.

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Oh, this is the kind of sound
that I want to have.

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So I don't think we should run
away from that.

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I think we should embrace it all
the way to When you're doing it

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in for Tomorrow poem that I had
written many years ago.

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For sure.
And look, you can't imitate

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something without it being
distinct.

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You know what I mean?
You know you and and you know

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you, you've just been so
distinct for for so long that

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yeah, I thought I'd, I'd share
the love there.

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So yes, cross paths in 2011
stuck in my head, but I'm sure

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there's, there's a story even
before that time.

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So what is kind of your origin
story of starting to to create

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and share your work on stage?
Yeah, yeah.

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So it's probably in two moments
my my poetic origin story of

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just on the page.
I mean, I'd written and stuff

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during high school and that kind
of thing.

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But then it was a number of
years.

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It was just a few years out of
high school.

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It was quite a full onstroke.
I was over on the border of

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Thailand and Burma doing some
work in an orphanage for kids

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who have been had a kind of
escaped across the border out of

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Myanmar, out of Burma.
Many of them seen their their

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families killed, their tribes
wiped out by the military

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dictatorship that happened over
there.

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And I arrived at this orphanage
the same time with a group of

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people, the same time as his
mother arrived with a sick baby

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boy on her back and trying to
find medical attention for that

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baby boy.
She was from Burma.

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And as she arrived, she realised
that that her baby boy had just

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died on her back.
And my obviously screaming,

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wailing, weeping mother, the
worst moment in her life.

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I was given a, a shovel by the
lady who runs the orphanage,

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lady named Mama Cat, told to
walk up into the jungle and to

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with two of the boys, two of the
orphan boys living there and to

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dig a grave for this baby boy.
And so I went and I dug this

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grave and it it shattered my
life.

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It shattered my worldview,
shattered my my faith, my

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spirituality shouted.
I got angry.

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I was angry at the world, angry
at Western society, angry at my

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parents, just angry.
And I remember that night is, I

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remember that night sitting in a
little bamboo Hut on the border

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of Thailand and Burma and I
could hear machine gunfire in

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the valleys beyond over in
Burma.

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And, and I put pen to paper and
it came out as poetry.

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It came out.
It was it was my way to take all

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that anger rumbling around
inside and in a cathartic way,

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bring it out on onto the page.
So that is really kind of the

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moment that kicked off my
writing in writing in itself.

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And then a while later, probably
a year or two later is when I

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first the origin story around
the the performing on stage a

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performance poetry.
A student of mine sent me a

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YouTube link to Annis Mojgani, a
brilliant American poet, was a

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national poetry slam champion
over there.

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And I was over here a number of
years ago.

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I got to host him, which was
amazing, Beaver MC for his tour

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over here, which was wonderful.
But I just, I had that moment.

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It was my fall in love with
spoken word moment.

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Listening to this, I was like,
God, this is performance and

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poetry.
It's my thing.

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I would, I, I need to do this.
And so randomly, a friend

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invited me to a, to a night in
Melbourne.

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I kind of remember what night it
was one of the poetry nights

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that slammed poetry nights that
happened in Melbourne the week

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after.
And I went along and Amy

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Bodosian was performing, who's
been a staple name in, in the

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slam, in the poetry scene in
Melbourne for many, many years.

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And she was performing and A and
a bunch of others.

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And I just fell in love with
her.

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So the next week I got up and
performed and started performing

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all the time and started doing,
going into the competitions,

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doing really well, etcetera,
etcetera.

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But yeah, they're kind of my my
starting moments.

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Bran.
Bran and like so many origin

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stories that have been shared,
you know, the the ability to

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take something an experience
that was obviously so dark and

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and such a paradigm shift for
you and to turn it into

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something again, so distinct and
and full of life.

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And that is being such a gift
to, you know, I want to say like

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a whole generation of
Melbourne's kind of slam poets

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as we as we come through and
find our voices is wonderful.

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So so thank you for for sharing
that with this job.

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I'm curious, you know, we, we
find ourselves in this age where

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attention spans, you know,
they're getting shorter and us

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creatives, when we share stuff,
we're not just kind of competing

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for space with other human
writers, but also like machine

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writers.
Now I'm just wondering, what do

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you think makes spoken word
poetry like, so powerful and

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enduring and relevant as a
medium today, even though things

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are changing so rapidly?
Yeah, totally.

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I mean, even even in with all of
our generative AI, we could go

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there as the as to what almost
feels like the extreme opposite

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of spoken word poetry, AI
generated material.

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AI can write poetry.
A lot of it's bad, but it's

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going to get better and better
and better.

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AI can write poetry, but spoken
word and human poets bring about

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a human authenticity that is
going to be and is now and is

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going to be increasingly more so
incredibly important in our

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world today as the riot.
What do they reckon 90% of of

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social media is going to be
totally AI generated within just

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a few short years like nearly
all that we see in social media

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world.
So much of of what we're going

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to be experiencing and intaking
is generative AI is large

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language models.
And so now I reckon in this age

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of AI more than ever, the human
craft of someone getting up on

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stage and taking the words that
they have written from their own

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personal story, their own
feelings, their own reality, not

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just throwing, I don't know,
Chacha BT write me a poem about

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hope.
But but dredging out of

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themselves hope in the places of
darkness, then bringing that

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onto the stage with as much
embodiment, as much personality,

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as much authenticity as they
can.

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There's nothing that's gonna
breakthrough more than that in

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our in what's gonna be our very
fake world very soon.

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Couldn't agree more.
And like a lot of creatives,

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I've spent a lot of time
thinking about this and thinking

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about, you know, if I know that
a poem or music or whatever has

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been made by a machine that is
not being made by human hands,

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minds, souls, whatever, I'm
really not that interested.

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Like I'm not.
When I look for music, I'm not

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just looking for background
beeps and boops and noises, like

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I'm actually looking for a, a
story.

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Do you know what I mean?
So maybe that's not the way

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everyone feels about the arts.
Like, I understand that, that

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not everyone values it in that
way.

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I mean, you know, big corporate
certainly doesn't value it in

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that way.
We could see a world where, you

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know, a, a, a seal of, you know,
a seal of guarantee of like 100%

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human origin comes at, yeah,
some kind of premium and, and,

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and holds extra importance
within, within the creative

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community.
Totally.

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I really, really agree that
humanity is where it's at, and

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that's what spoken word has
always been about, the messy,

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gritty, sweaty human reality.
Yeah, love it.

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To have to have been around for
for so long, Joel, and to have

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00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:26,600
such a sustained time as a as a
speaker and poet, I'm sure it

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00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:29,280
takes a lot of hard work and a
lot of kind of business savvy.

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00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:32,600
And I think we see a lot of
creative struggling with the

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00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:34,640
business side of things.
We get a bit skittish when it

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comes to like, yeah, that side
of things.

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Maybe it's not our, our, our
strength or, or we think, oh,

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00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:43,000
who am I to, to do this or
whatever.

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So that tension, how have you
navigated that tension between,

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00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:51,040
I guess staying true to artistic
vision, but also building a

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sustainable career and, and, and
morphing and changing as you

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00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:57,240
have into new fields?
Yeah, great question.

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I think for me, a major part has
that I've realized that I

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00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:04,520
realized over the years that I
needed to do, if this was going

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00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:08,079
to become a sustainable business
practice for me, is that I

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00:17:08,079 --> 00:17:13,960
needed to do more than just be a
slam poet performing to slam

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00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:16,400
poets.
And I want to honor the slam

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00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:20,240
poetry scene.
And it, it kicked me into my

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00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:24,119
life and my career and my love
and my everything that slam

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00:17:24,119 --> 00:17:27,359
poetry has been for me.
But if I'd stayed just doing

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00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:29,840
slam poetry, there's no way that
this would be a full time

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00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:32,800
reality for me.
And so I think it's been really

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00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:34,520
important.
And maybe for listeners who are

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00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:40,560
wanting to take this to the next
career level, it's figuring out

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00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:46,560
how can you take what you do
within the slam poetry world and

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00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:50,000
bring it out into the wider
context, whatever niche,

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00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:53,320
whatever something you might be
able to speak into.

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Because in that place, like
amongst the slam poetry scene,

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you are a slam poet amongst a
bunch of slam poets who and

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00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:06,560
you'll have nights where it'll
pop and things will go off and

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00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:08,240
you'll get standing ovations,
etcetera.

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00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:12,320
But if you can bring that same
passion, that same purpose, that

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00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:17,560
same professional clarity, that
dedication that you bring to

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00:18:17,560 --> 00:18:23,280
your craft, you bring that into.
For me, it began within the kind

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00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:27,520
of festival scene and the
conference scene and doing lots

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00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:33,200
of work for, not for profits.
And I found my, a niche that was

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00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:36,760
separate from the slam poetry
niche.

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And I brought slam poetry into
that.

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And, and as I did that, I became
the distinctive, like your

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00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:46,280
career is going to take off when
you are the distinctive.

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00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:49,200
Some people can do that within
the slam poetry scene, be

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00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:52,640
incredibly distinctive, but I
don't think it's, it's not large

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00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:56,520
enough to to foster a career.
And so when I think of the

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00:18:56,520 --> 00:18:59,760
people that I know who have
stepped into the full time

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00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:03,600
career of it, they have found a
space outside, be it sometimes

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00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:05,400
within schools.
I do a whole lot of schools work

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00:19:05,840 --> 00:19:10,520
or conference work or or with
corporates and organizations

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00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:14,280
find what it is.
The the other thing that kind of

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00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:18,240
overlaps and crosses over with
the spoken word that you bring.

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00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:21,800
And I think that's going to give
you a weighing in a lot more as

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00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:24,200
you do that.
Then, of course, one of the is

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00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:30,680
the, as my career has progressed
and as I perform poetry,

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00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:34,520
sometimes it's almost every day
of the week I'm performing

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00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:38,360
poetry, be it to corporate
conferences or be it within

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00:19:38,360 --> 00:19:41,200
schools.
I have to, as you said, retain

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that that authentic love of just
the writing and the craft so

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00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:48,600
that I don't lose myself trying
to just do poetry that makes me

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00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:51,840
money or whatever.
It's not even, I mean, we know

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00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:53,120
it's not even about making
money.

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00:19:53,120 --> 00:19:59,200
That almost so strange we have
these, these, these aversions to

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00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:02,640
even saying the word, making
money as a creative, as a poet.

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00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:08,080
But I got a family to feed and
I've had to for many, many years

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00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:11,240
and like bills to pay, etcetera.
We all do.

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00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:16,360
And so, but in the midst of
that, I've made sure every day I

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write poetry for myself.
So my creative discipline, my

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00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:24,240
creative practice for the last
12 years I reckon, has been to

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00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:27,640
write a poem every single day.
And I have retained that.

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00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:30,520
I have kept doing that.
And some of those poems end up

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00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:32,320
being the ones that I perform to
people.

355
00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:34,240
Many of them don't.
Many of them are junk.

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00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:36,400
But the only way to write good
poetry is allow yourself to

357
00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:41,520
write bad poetry every day.
And so I show up and I write and

358
00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:45,200
I write and I create and I put
that mirror, that self

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00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:48,360
confrontative mirror that our
poetry writing brings us.

360
00:20:48,360 --> 00:20:50,880
I put it up in front of my face
and I learn who I am through

361
00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:52,840
that.
So I think I, I think it's

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00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:56,600
incredibly important to do both.
Not, not incredibly, but like

363
00:20:56,600 --> 00:20:58,880
you don't have to be a full time
career based poet.

364
00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:00,640
I think there's few people who
can do that.

365
00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:02,640
If that's what you're wanting to
do, then you can head in that

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00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:06,920
direction, as I said, but you
can also just do it for the love

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00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:08,240
of it and the craft of it.
Totally.

368
00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:12,160
There's some rambling for you.
Oh, far from rambling, that's,

369
00:21:12,360 --> 00:21:14,800
that's fantastic advice.
I think I think it makes a lot

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00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:17,240
of sense.
You know, as much as the, the

371
00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:19,120
Melbourne and the Australian
spoken word scene is, is

372
00:21:19,120 --> 00:21:22,000
thriving, you're right, it can
be very insular.

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00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:25,560
I think it's hard to get the
word out about things.

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00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:28,480
I think so many people I've
heard say, oh, I never knew that

375
00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:31,480
there was this going on here.
And, you know, even when there

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00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:34,880
is interest.
So even on our best day, I think

377
00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:39,320
we're we're still learning how
to, I guess, how to contribute

378
00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:41,480
to the wider Melbourne
community.

379
00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:44,960
So you're saying that it's
essentially, yeah, positioning

380
00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:49,600
yourself to take opportunities
that that have some overlap or

381
00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:51,320
something that you can offer
with that skill set.

382
00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:54,880
Can you tell us about one
particular, you know,

383
00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:58,240
opportunity or or place that you
got to perform at that really

384
00:21:58,240 --> 00:22:00,440
kind of, I don't know, broke
things open for you?

385
00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:03,120
Or was it more of a gradual?
Sure.

386
00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:04,320
Yeah.
No, no, no, sure.

387
00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:09,360
And interestingly so probably
one of the major events that

388
00:22:09,360 --> 00:22:12,840
I've ever done was story
gathering conference over in

389
00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:17,040
Nashville, one of the one of the
biggest storytelling and

390
00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:20,440
narrative story based
professional storytellers kind

391
00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:24,640
of conferences in the world,
right, with incredible people,

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00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:28,920
Disney riders, Pixar animators,
Nikes creative team, the

393
00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:31,440
storytelling team from NASA's,
the kind of people there.

394
00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:36,160
And I was there.
I was there because like this is

395
00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:39,080
the the Lincoln in terms of
picking up opportunities.

396
00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:42,720
I was there performing because
the guy who run it, his name's

397
00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:48,240
Harris and Harris I got to meet
a few years earlier connected to

398
00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:52,960
through a friend and that friend
that I got connected to Harris

399
00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:56,800
through, they had seen me
perform in a little cafe.

400
00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:00,680
And that little cafe that I
performed in was years earlier.

401
00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:03,560
We literally, I was sitting
around at home with some, we

402
00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:05,360
were in a share house at that
point and was sitting around at

403
00:23:05,360 --> 00:23:07,880
home wondering about what we'll
do on that night.

404
00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:09,960
Someone was like, oh, there's
meant to be some creative arts

405
00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:11,920
night happening in Melbourne.
Maybe we should go along.

406
00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:15,520
And we're all pretty tired.
We're like, oh, I don't know.

407
00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:19,120
And but then there was this
tiny, tiny little spark.

408
00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:23,240
And, and I've, I've learnt to
try to listen when a tiny, tiny

409
00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:27,760
little spark happens, I'm like,
oh, that's there's something in

410
00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:29,760
there.
So I, so I'm like, no, Leon,

411
00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:32,080
let's go, let's go.
So I rock up at this night.

412
00:23:32,120 --> 00:23:34,160
I get to the front door.
The person on the front door is

413
00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:36,080
like, oh, you're Joel Mccarran,
you're a poet.

414
00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:38,240
Do you reckon you could do some
poetry for us tonight?

415
00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:43,000
I was like, sure, I'll jump up
and do a poem and took the

416
00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:45,040
opportunity right.
Jump up, do the poem.

417
00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:49,520
The person who saw me in the in
there in the event ran a a

418
00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:53,040
spoken word night.
No, not a spoken word night.

419
00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:54,600
The creative night that was on
there.

420
00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:56,680
He was running in Sydney the
next night said, Hey, can I fly

421
00:23:56,680 --> 00:23:57,800
up to Sydney to do that
tomorrow?

422
00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:00,120
Flew up to Sydney.
That person was the person who

423
00:24:00,120 --> 00:24:03,240
then saw me that that connected
me to Harris, that connected me

424
00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:06,480
to to Nashville, to doing story
gathering.

425
00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:09,920
Literally, if I hadn't listened
to that tiny little spark, I

426
00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:12,360
wouldn't have got to.
And there's a number of other

427
00:24:12,360 --> 00:24:14,880
kind of spin offs and things
that have happened from that.

428
00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:19,640
If I hadn't listened to the
spark and if I hadn't been open

429
00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:23,320
to every single opportunity and
worked hard at my craft enough

430
00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:25,000
that someone goes, oh, could you
do a poem?

431
00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:27,080
And I can say, yeah, of course
I'll jump up and do it.

432
00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:28,280
What do you want it on?
How do you want it?

433
00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:29,920
Like what's the what's the
thing?

434
00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:32,960
Picked that up.
And so then there I get to

435
00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:37,960
perform in Nashville.
And this was the gig, I think

436
00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:40,120
you said before I performed at
the Shermerhorn Symphony

437
00:24:40,120 --> 00:24:42,520
Orchestra Hall in Nashville.
This was this gig to thousands

438
00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:45,560
and thousands of story writers.
And a, a beautiful thing about

439
00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:50,200
this moment is I had so my job
was, and this is something that

440
00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:54,360
conferences, corporates get me
to do is to write poetry kind of

441
00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:57,600
on the spot in, in real time as
keynote speakers are speaking,

442
00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:00,920
that I didn't jump up straight
afterwards and perform back to

443
00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:04,760
the audience that are there kind
of a summative poetic moment

444
00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:06,760
with this one.
I had a they also gave me a

445
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:08,560
cellist.
So I had a cellist playing

446
00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:12,440
improv cello music as I
performed back the poetry of the

447
00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:13,640
moment.
I ended up in tears.

448
00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:15,200
A lot of the audit.
We had a really beautiful

449
00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:16,760
moment.
And this lady came up afterwards

450
00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:20,640
and tapped me on the shoulder
and she said she's kind of was

451
00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:22,200
in tears still.
She's like, oh, that was so

452
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:23,520
beautiful.
Thank you so much.

453
00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:25,480
Like that moved me so much.
I said, oh, no worries.

454
00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:27,960
I said, are you a writer too?
She said, yeah, yeah, yeah.

455
00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:31,680
I write I write screenplays,
scripts to become movies.

456
00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:33,120
I said, oh, have you had any
maiden time movies?

457
00:25:33,120 --> 00:25:35,440
She's like, yeah, yeah.
She said, oh, I'm retiring now,

458
00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:37,320
but I've had a a bunch of maid.
I said, oh, would I know any

459
00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:40,320
She's like, yeah, you would.
I wrote Beauty and the Beast.

460
00:25:41,120 --> 00:25:44,800
How's it are you?
Are you Linda Wolverton?

461
00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:48,360
She said, yeah, I said, so she
wrote, she wrote The Lion King,

462
00:25:48,360 --> 00:25:52,840
like Maleficent, this is Disney
royalty and and we got to go and

463
00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:56,080
hang out then and she she's
incredible, right?

464
00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:59,760
We got to have luncheon and she
was talking, she was sharing

465
00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:02,320
about just two very quick, I
know this is a long rambling

466
00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:03,800
thing as well, but two very
quick things.

467
00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:07,160
She said she, she goes, you
know, when I wrote the character

468
00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:11,800
Belle from Beauty and the Beast,
she said I wrote Belle as, as

469
00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:16,960
myself, like I took the best,
the best parts of who I was and

470
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:19,960
said, she said she went before
the the decision makers of

471
00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:21,840
Disney that were old white men
at that point.

472
00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:24,960
It's different now.
But, and she said, if I'm

473
00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:27,760
writing this, this is not just
going to be another damsel in

474
00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:30,640
distress who needs to be rescued
by a boy.

475
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:33,640
This Bell's going to be smart
and autonomous and creative and

476
00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:37,120
independent and stubborn and
brave and strong and like, and

477
00:26:37,120 --> 00:26:38,640
she's going to be a reader.
She's going to walk around the

478
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:40,080
town reading.
She took all the best stuff of

479
00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:42,480
herself and bought it into her
character.

480
00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:45,400
And then she said when she
wrote, when she wrote the

481
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:51,680
character Mufasa Simba's dad,
she said she wrote Mufasa as the

482
00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:57,160
dad that she never had.
She said she had a horrible, a

483
00:26:57,160 --> 00:27:00,760
really hard childhood.
And then coming out of that,

484
00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:03,840
though, into her teen years,
that's when she found story and

485
00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:08,160
she would lose herself in in
movies and in books and it

486
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:09,960
changed her life.
And then she picked up a pen and

487
00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:12,880
started writing her own stories.
And and I'll finish this little

488
00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:16,080
story with this.
She said that the how did she

489
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:19,680
phrase it?
She said what I realized is in

490
00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:24,080
my own writing was that that I
could write a better story for

491
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:28,000
myself than the one my dad had
written for me, could write a

492
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:30,400
better story for myself than the
one my dad had written for me.

493
00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:33,000
And that like, isn't that where
it's at?

494
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:36,080
Like that's what what all of our
writing, our our poetry is

495
00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:38,760
about.
It's about restoring ourself and

496
00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:41,840
naming those things parts of
ourself that other people tried

497
00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:45,320
to steal from us and tried to
dictate what our story would be.

498
00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:48,240
And we get to reclaim that.
That was a very long answer.

499
00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:50,600
I can't even remember what the
original question was, but there

500
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:52,400
you go.
That, that's incredible.

501
00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:54,840
You know, the people that that
you run into, like, like you

502
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:58,520
said, when you when you spend
years refining your craft, but

503
00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:01,280
also building trust, you know,
there was a lot of trust

504
00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:04,560
involved in all those exchanges.
Trust and the reputation.

505
00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:07,640
It's really important.
So, you know, Joe, you now find

506
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:11,040
yourself at a point where you
have so much experience speaking

507
00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:13,240
publicly, professionally, like
you said, all kinds of different

508
00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:15,440
contexts.
I want to talk about public

509
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:17,880
speaking because, you know,
public speaking is, I think, one

510
00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:22,080
of one of the number one or, or,
or maybe the second biggest fear

511
00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:25,240
in the world.
People really, really detest it,

512
00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:28,320
avoid it, fear it in a big way.
Most of the world does.

513
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:32,320
Why do you think it is a fear
for so many people And and how

514
00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:36,520
can becoming a better public
speaker change people's lives?

515
00:28:37,360 --> 00:28:39,160
Yeah, yeah.
I think it's the, in many ways,

516
00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:42,680
it's the fear of standing out
like it's the fear of so much of

517
00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:44,920
our life.
I think is especially in our

518
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:47,760
teenage years.
He's edited and we project a

519
00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:51,320
certain version of our self out
into the world that we want the

520
00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:53,760
world to see us as.
And we have control of that.

521
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:56,560
And in a social media land as
well, we have control of the

522
00:28:56,560 --> 00:28:59,240
version of our self that we
project out that other people

523
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:01,480
get to see.
But when you're on stage in

524
00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:04,600
front of lots of people, you,
you don't necessarily you have

525
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:08,320
control, right?
When you are a professional at

526
00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:10,240
that, you get a lot more when
you're doing it all the time and

527
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:13,480
you get a lot of reps of being
on stage, then you're much

528
00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:15,120
better at.
But to begin with, which is

529
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:17,920
where most people are AT and
where most people who really

530
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:22,600
fear it are AT, there's a sense
that you could one that you are

531
00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:25,920
being seen by people and as much
as you want it, you do.

532
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:28,240
Obviously you're projecting as
you get onto stage.

533
00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:32,400
For sure, no matter what, no
matter what stage you are on or

534
00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:35,920
what stage of, of writing and
creativity and performance

535
00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:37,240
you're at, you're still
projecting.

536
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:41,200
But there is a sense of
vulnerability of authenticity as

537
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:42,800
well.
And there's also the reality

538
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:47,280
that they, there's the fear that
you're going to stand out, stuff

539
00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:49,960
up, look weird, look strange, et
cetera, et cetera.

540
00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:55,400
And so I think that is that
makes us nervous to get on stage

541
00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:58,720
and stops us from doing that.
One of the things that I've that

542
00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:02,360
I've often said so one of the
because I so when I grew up, I

543
00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:04,960
was in when I was my teenage,
early teenage years, I was

544
00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:06,480
petrified of speaking on the
stage.

545
00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:10,080
I'd Chuck a sickie at school
every time we'd have speaking

546
00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:12,960
events, I'd pretend to be sick
and, and now it's the thing that

547
00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:15,360
I do every day.
But I remember the, the change

548
00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:19,040
in it.
I, I grew up in church world and

549
00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:23,480
I remember a friend invited me
along when I was maybe 15 or 16

550
00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:25,960
or something to speak like at
their youth group to the, to

551
00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:29,600
the, to the young guys there.
And I hated speaking, but I

552
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:31,680
still had this thing inside me.
At that point.

553
00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:34,600
I thought I was going to be a, a
big mega church preacher, right?

554
00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:36,560
Had this thing is I knew that I
was going to be out the front of

555
00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:38,240
people.
And that was my, that was my

556
00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:41,400
context, because that's the
world that I knew was, was

557
00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:44,800
church world.
And so a friend invited me to

558
00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:47,400
speak at youth group.
I, I was didn't want to do it

559
00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:50,080
like petrified, feeling sick,
but I got up and did it.

560
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:54,400
And in the midst of the fear, I
remember like afterwards, this

561
00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:57,360
kid came up and said, Oh, that
just, I felt like you were just

562
00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:00,920
speaking to me like that.
I didn't know anyone had my kind

563
00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:04,920
of story, the same story, but
hearing if it, I just don't feel

564
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:07,320
so alone anymore.
And I couldn't have put it in

565
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:10,680
these words then.
But what I realized what I have

566
00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:13,240
to say is more important than
the fear that stops me from

567
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:16,960
saying it.
And so though there is a whole,

568
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:19,120
there was a whole lot of fear
for many years there.

569
00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:22,400
That was the mantra I just kept
on repeating, repeating not

570
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:26,880
exactly in those words, but like
what I the things I have to say.

571
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:31,960
If I can help one kid be less
lonely, isn't that worth the

572
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:35,320
nerves that I'm feeling?
So it's like getting over

573
00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:39,320
myself, choosing to step on
stage and give it anyway, even

574
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:41,960
in the midst of the nerves.
And then you do it enough times

575
00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:47,000
and you and you don't get so
nervous anymore and.

576
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:50,920
Maybe, yeah, part of that fear
for people might come from some

577
00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:54,880
kind of formative experience,
you know, where something went.

578
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:57,720
Wrong on.
Stage or they were jeered for

579
00:31:57,720 --> 00:31:59,600
something or whatever.
I mean, we see it.

580
00:31:59,880 --> 00:32:03,320
We see it all the time, Yeah.
Or for us Rangers.

581
00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:06,960
For us Rangers, our faces go red
all the time and it's, and it's

582
00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:08,840
not because we're nervous or
embarrassed, but there was a

583
00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:12,080
moment in like year 7 where a
teacher pointed out my, I said

584
00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:14,520
something cheeky and a teacher
points out my face going red in

585
00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:16,560
the class and everyone else is
looking at you going, your face

586
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:17,880
is going red, your face is going
red.

587
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:21,360
So then it goes even more red.
And I've, I've learnt to embrace

588
00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:23,200
that over the years.
That's just what, it's just what

589
00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:24,920
it's my genetics, That's what
happens.

590
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:26,760
But it's those kind of things as
well.

591
00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:30,000
It's those moments that that
really bring about the fear as

592
00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:31,640
well.
That's such a.

593
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:33,040
Painful.
Yeah.

594
00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:35,080
That's such a cringe, cringing
memory, I should say.

595
00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:38,440
It's like someone's having a a
physiological response to

596
00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:40,880
discomfort.
This is the weirdo, you know?

597
00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:44,480
Yeah, totally.
It's a shocker and and you know,

598
00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:46,600
I, I.
I'm sure people might make

599
00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:49,120
assumptions about you and go,
oh, you, you make it look so

600
00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:51,040
easy.
You know, you look so relaxed.

601
00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:52,960
Whatever.
I don't know if this is what

602
00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:55,320
it's like for you, but like
every time I'm on stage, there's

603
00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:57,800
always some, there's always some
butterflies going on.

604
00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:00,440
There's always some nerves.
I wouldn't want there not to be

605
00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:03,040
I I would want a little bit of
that to keep me sharp.

606
00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:07,760
Does that ever go away or, or is
it still there for you as well?

607
00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:11,160
Look.
I think for some for, I think

608
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:12,360
it's different for different
people.

609
00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:15,200
Like I, a lot of the time it's
not there.

610
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:18,600
So a lot of the time these days
I don't feel nervous when I'm

611
00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:21,000
performing.
There's definitely performances

612
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:24,480
when I do and it's often if it's
like a big crowd or a

613
00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:28,360
significant moment or if I'm
doing something new, if I'm

614
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:31,320
whatever it might be.
But because I do so much stuff,

615
00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:36,640
so much performing, I think kind
of the normal everyday

616
00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:39,760
performances that I might do,
whether it's at a cafe or a

617
00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:45,640
school or whatever, in front of
304050 people, then I don't, I

618
00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:47,560
don't necessarily feel nervous
about.

619
00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:54,160
I still, I have a capacity to
tap into the authenticity even

620
00:33:54,160 --> 00:34:00,720
though I'm not feeling nervous.
And but I still, I know many,

621
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:03,000
many friends who still get
nervous every time they get up

622
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:04,360
on stage.
They've been doing it for as

623
00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:07,880
long as I have.
I think there's just some, I

624
00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:11,000
have that weird kind of
personality that loves the stage

625
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:13,719
as, as sometimes as nerve
wracking as it can be.

626
00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:16,440
I love being at the front of
people and sharing thoughts and

627
00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:20,239
ideas and and my poetry.
So I think it's it's okay to be

628
00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:21,560
either.
I think it's okay to feel

629
00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:24,440
nervous and it's okay to not as
well, as long as you can tap in

630
00:34:25,639 --> 00:34:29,639
to an energy source.
Or, or maybe it's because I

631
00:34:29,639 --> 00:34:34,199
spent many years transforming
that, like intentionally

632
00:34:34,199 --> 00:34:38,400
transforming that nervous energy
into into passion energy, like

633
00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:41,000
on stage passion energy.
I think the more we can do that,

634
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:44,520
then as soon as nerves begin to
come up, I grab a hold of it and

635
00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:46,440
transform it again and go, no,
this is passion.

636
00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:49,400
This is what I want to bring,
not just because I'm fearful and

637
00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:51,159
nervous.
Yeah, wonderful, wonderful.

638
00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:53,560
So.
You know, continual continual

639
00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:56,320
exposure, continual
professionalism and, and I think

640
00:34:56,320 --> 00:34:59,240
you you get there eventually.
Thanks for all that, Joel.

641
00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:02,480
I think we're ready for piece
number 20.

642
00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:05,960
Sure, yeah.
Sure, what I thought I would

643
00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:08,720
actually read out.
So I I write a poem every day.

644
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:12,440
So I thought I'd write my poem
out yesterday from yesterday,

645
00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:18,720
which I have right here.
No, this was not from yesterday,

646
00:35:18,720 --> 00:35:22,560
the day before up in Sydney.
And this is the poem.

647
00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:25,120
This is the first draft.
Remember, every first draft is

648
00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:26,960
meant to be shit.
That's the whole idea of a first

649
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:30,160
draft.
And so it goes, something like

650
00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:32,200
this.
I take myself away, dream

651
00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:34,840
another day, take my frail ways
and write them out on paper.

652
00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:39,080
I'm drinking coffee. 6:00 AM on
a Sydney St. in the flat white

653
00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:42,440
morning, bright traffic light in
the line up of tired eyes at the

654
00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:45,400
coffee shop.
He stands before me, his muscles

655
00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:47,200
rippling.
He's been working out since 5:00

656
00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:49,040
AM.
I've been hurting through my

657
00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:50,880
heart again.
These words again, these verbs

658
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:53,640
are friends, are sentences, a
partner until the end.

659
00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:57,480
Pretend all you want, but I need
a way to excavate.

660
00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:00,440
This pen is a shovel and the
rubble is a memory.

661
00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:04,920
I'm digging trouble off a messy
me, these frail ways, past

662
00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:07,760
mistakes.
Like the way I shut her down

663
00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:11,240
without her even, without me
even realizing.

664
00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:15,400
Like the two harsh words spoken
like the broken promise, the ego

665
00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:17,320
trip, the ripped up note, the
leaky boat.

666
00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:20,160
But I wrote my way, way out of
those regrets, and I'll keep

667
00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:23,920
riding my way out of these
regrets, digging deep enough for

668
00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:26,240
a new foundation ground made
solid.

669
00:36:26,240 --> 00:36:30,200
This architect pen, this
blueprint muscle man is gone

670
00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:32,200
from the line now.
But the dog walkers have come.

671
00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:34,960
And her dog looks up at me and I
wonder what it sees, how its

672
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:38,080
eyes are different from mine,
seeing the world in a different

673
00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:39,560
way, a different color, a
different day.

674
00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:42,720
And isn't this what I do with
this pen of mine, these words

675
00:36:42,720 --> 00:36:44,800
written and I learning how to
see different?

676
00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:48,000
The news this morning told me
some scientists have worked out

677
00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:51,360
a way for us to see a totally
different color, one no human

678
00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:54,080
has ever seen before.
The smallest percentage of the

679
00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:56,000
color spectrum is all we can
see.

680
00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:59,840
So why stay small?
Claim I know all I need to when

681
00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:02,920
there's a hot, when there are
new colors out there to find new

682
00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:05,440
life, new memories.
And isn't this what I do every

683
00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:07,800
day?
Take the world they see and

684
00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:10,080
remind them of the colours they
do not.

685
00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:13,640
Plumb the depths of this reality
so that normality ain't so

686
00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:15,800
normal anymore.
So that the mundane ain't so

687
00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:18,360
mundane.
Strain your eyes to see, lift

688
00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:21,760
your ears to hear.
Like the dog hear this one with

689
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:25,440
his satellite ears circling
around, hearing a world I had no

690
00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:27,560
idea if an existed.
Come on.

691
00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:31,320
This is why I do what I do.
This is why I do what I do.

692
00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:37,040
And as you were saying that as
you were saying.

693
00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:39,600
That one might be just for you
or it might make its way to the

694
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:42,120
stage, but there's there's
plenty more where that came

695
00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:43,440
from.
Yeah, we'll see.

696
00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:45,960
We'll see what happens.
With that 1, I loved it.

697
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:48,920
Thanks, Joel.
Joel, as I mentioned before, you

698
00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:51,960
know, I crossed paths with you
when you were lecturing, guest

699
00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:53,640
lecturing at a theological
college.

700
00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:57,280
I was starting at some of your
lectures, parts of them still

701
00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:00,000
still stick with me.
I remember a certain quote from

702
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:04,680
you saying that What's the
effect of you can't talk about

703
00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:08,080
creativity without ending up
talking about spirituality, and

704
00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:10,200
you can't talk about
spirituality without ending up

705
00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:13,080
talking about creativity.
And that's something that sounds

706
00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:15,840
like something.
I'd say yeah, yeah, and and.

707
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:19,040
That just, I don't know, that
just went off like a gong inside

708
00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:20,680
me at the time and and still
does.

709
00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:23,160
And, and you were, you know,
speaking about the intersection

710
00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:26,520
of, I guess faith and art and
justice and and other things

711
00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:31,040
that that really light me up.
So I'm wondering, how has your,

712
00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:33,520
I guess, spiritual journey
influenced your creative

713
00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:36,920
expression over the years?
Yeah.

714
00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:41,560
Great.
So, so I grew up in quite

715
00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:44,960
conservative evangelical
Christianity, black and white

716
00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:48,280
kind of world of a, of a
Christianity had a number of

717
00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:51,440
experiences then, one of them
actually being that that key

718
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:54,080
experience of having to bury
that child when my poetry began.

719
00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:57,720
And a number of other
experiences around that time and

720
00:38:57,720 --> 00:39:04,160
earlier in the lead up and where
the the culture that I was

721
00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:08,520
brought up in and the absolutes
that I was told and the

722
00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:14,480
doctrines that I held started to
the the firm foundation that

723
00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:18,840
they were for my childhood
started to crumble and fracture

724
00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:21,880
and I needed a way to process
through that.

725
00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:26,520
And and as I said, like that way
began for me on the border of

726
00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:27,920
Thailand and Burma, writing that
poem.

727
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:31,520
And then it continued has
continued to be that as I've

728
00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:35,960
gone on the journey of trying to
figure out what I believe and

729
00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:40,840
who I am and how my my
spirituality or my faith plays

730
00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:44,360
out these days.
Like what do I, as I figure out

731
00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:46,960
what do I want to leave behind
from my upbringing and what are

732
00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:50,440
the beautiful things that I want
to hold onto in my growing up

733
00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:53,760
years when I first kind of went,
there's so much hypocrisy in the

734
00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:55,280
church.
Screw all these, screw

735
00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:58,280
everything to do with it.
Like and went that way, but I

736
00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:04,000
think learning how to hold on.
To beautiful things is is really

737
00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:07,760
important and learning what to
let go of is really important

738
00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:10,920
and the creative process for me
has been the thing that's

739
00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:15,360
allowed me to articulate that
it's allowed me to look at my

740
00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:18,720
own spirituality, my own faith,
my own belief system, figure out

741
00:40:18,720 --> 00:40:26,040
my way forward and I suppose
take the creative path that I've

742
00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:30,560
taken the poetry that I write.
It absolutely is both my way of

743
00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:35,360
plumbing my own depths and
plumbing the depths of something

744
00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:42,040
we might call God of of some
spiritual creative faith.

745
00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:47,000
It's still incredibly vibrant in
my life looks nothing like the

746
00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:54,720
faith I grew up in in many ways,
but it's still strong and and

747
00:40:55,240 --> 00:40:59,360
blossoming for want of a better
word, like it's still growing

748
00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:01,760
and on like there's still fire
there, there's still passion

749
00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:03,680
there just looks really
different and than the

750
00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:10,720
creativity like that's been the
thing 100% that has opened up my

751
00:41:10,720 --> 00:41:13,240
insides, allowed me to be
present like the poem that we

752
00:41:13,240 --> 00:41:17,640
began with and allowed me to be
present to myself, allowed me to

753
00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:20,760
be present to the divine, to
God, allowed me to be present to

754
00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:25,360
the world that's around me.
It's, it's been everything for

755
00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:26,880
me.
I don't think if I hadn't have

756
00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:30,200
found poetry, I don't think I'd
still have a.

757
00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:32,800
I mean, I would of course we all
have a belief system.

758
00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:37,880
But I don't think I'd still have
as an intentional belief system,

759
00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:43,280
spiritual system, faith system,
as I do now that I have sweated

760
00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:46,600
my way poetically through to
come to an understanding of

761
00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:48,800
yeah, this is this is what I'm
about.

762
00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:51,200
So it's it's been everything.
Yeah.

763
00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:54,200
Beautifully said Joel and.
And I appreciate that, you know,

764
00:41:54,200 --> 00:41:57,280
now and also in those lectures
all those years ago, yeah, you,

765
00:41:57,600 --> 00:42:01,120
you were really giving language
to, to something that hadn't

766
00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:05,840
really happened to me yet.
And and, and now kind of has

767
00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:11,320
and, and is and, and so, you
know, that that transition away

768
00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:15,200
from like my heart being into
like, you know, systemic

769
00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:17,440
theology or whatever.
And now more into poetry.

770
00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:20,480
Like when I talk about these
things, I think poetic language

771
00:42:20,760 --> 00:42:24,040
is, is more appropriate because
we're talking about things, you

772
00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:27,880
know, beyond beyond the literal.
Totally.

773
00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:30,200
Yeah, yeah.
And I mean, that's what that's

774
00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:33,200
exactly where the poetry, why I
think it's so effective is

775
00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:36,920
because poetry is trying to name
those things that we can't name,

776
00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:39,000
trying to articulate the things
that we can't articulate.

777
00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:42,240
One of my favourite theology
kind of books that I read way

778
00:42:42,240 --> 00:42:45,120
back in the day that helped me
was by Peter Rowlands called How

779
00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:52,320
not to Speak of God, That this,
this God construct that we speak

780
00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:54,960
of.
We can use metaphors for, we can

781
00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:59,440
use descriptive words for, but
there's no like any word that we

782
00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:04,040
use is still just skimming the
top of the infinite, skimming,

783
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:08,840
skimming the top of the ocean.
And so poetry, yeah, has allowed

784
00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:15,160
me to not try to define the
ocean, but to to swim in that

785
00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:17,360
ocean that is God and faith and
life.

786
00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:19,360
Yeah.
To swim it and enjoy it and go.

787
00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:21,920
I don't have to have the answers
here.

788
00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:26,720
I can just be.
And I know that you you really

789
00:43:26,720 --> 00:43:29,480
deep dived and explored some of
these ideas through your own

790
00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:33,080
podcast, the the Deep Place for
a long time now.

791
00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:35,240
I I've.
Been really enjoying my

792
00:43:35,240 --> 00:43:38,040
listening of it but I know it's
been a while since y'all have

793
00:43:38,040 --> 00:43:40,360
had any episodes.
Is it coming back or is it has

794
00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:43,000
it been laid to rest?
Oh, it will when I when I have.

795
00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:45,360
Time, No, I'd love it to.
So I think it's we're up to the

796
00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:48,760
third, the third season and I've
kind of done, it was like a

797
00:43:48,760 --> 00:43:51,160
season and a year gap and a
season and a year gap.

798
00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:52,120
But now I've done another
season.

799
00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:54,440
I've probably had a year and a
half or two years gap now.

800
00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:58,280
Life has gotten in the way.
But I do want to bring it back

801
00:43:58,280 --> 00:43:59,680
at some point.
I think it's.

802
00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:01,160
Yeah.
I've really loved doing that

803
00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:03,480
podcast over the years.
Oh, fantastic.

804
00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:04,160
I was.
I was.

805
00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:06,600
Totally expecting you to say no,
no, it's been, you know, it's

806
00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:09,120
had it's time or whatever, but
now no, I'm really excited.

807
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:11,640
The Great.
Thank you.

808
00:44:11,640 --> 00:44:13,200
Thank you.
Sometime I'll get back to it.

809
00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:16,840
I'm wondering if you had any?
Perspective on this so you know

810
00:44:17,560 --> 00:44:20,680
myself growing up in in church
world as well and being like a

811
00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:24,320
bit of a, a punk rock kid, I was
loving, you know, my, my mute

812
00:44:24,320 --> 00:44:27,920
math, my anti skeptic, my my
Switchfoot, whatever.

813
00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:32,040
I've noticed I've noticed
something and maybe this isn't

814
00:44:32,040 --> 00:44:34,320
actually a thing.
Maybe this is something that my

815
00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:36,200
algorithm is feeding me as some
kind of narrative.

816
00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:37,560
That's why I need some
perspective.

817
00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:42,960
But this concept of the the the
Christian artist versus the

818
00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:45,440
artist who is a Christian, you
know, and this this is not a new

819
00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:47,400
thought.
But, you know, sometimes there's

820
00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:50,240
being like contemporary
Christian music artists like,

821
00:44:50,240 --> 00:44:53,800
you know, back in the day, let's
say Andy Grant or more more

822
00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:59,640
recently like Laura, Laura
Daigle or, or yeah, like a

823
00:44:59,640 --> 00:45:02,320
Lifehouse or something.
And, you know, they might have

824
00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:04,280
some kind of big crossover hit,
right?

825
00:45:04,280 --> 00:45:06,400
And they find themselves being
listened to like a wider

826
00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:09,240
audience.
And then sometimes the, the

827
00:45:09,240 --> 00:45:11,320
narrative changes because all of
a sudden there's all these

828
00:45:11,320 --> 00:45:14,560
expectations that, you know, is,
is there some kind of

829
00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:17,120
expectation that we're now
expecting these artists to be

830
00:45:17,120 --> 00:45:20,440
some kind of mouthpiece for the
church, even though, you know,

831
00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:23,360
they're, they're going along
their own creative path.

832
00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:27,400
And, and I think sometimes
things can get quite nasty when

833
00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:30,080
people go, oh, you know, this,
this person's, you know,

834
00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:34,440
changing or, or, or whatever.
Do you think there is some kind

835
00:45:34,440 --> 00:45:37,440
of, I don't know if you'd call
that like a glass ceiling, But

836
00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:42,600
like, how are we going with,
with like championing artists in

837
00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:46,080
the church without trying to,
like, control what they do too

838
00:45:46,080 --> 00:45:47,280
much?
Yeah, totally.

839
00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:49,720
I mean.
This is it's a it's a massive

840
00:45:49,720 --> 00:45:51,960
cultural question and it changes
as to the culture.

841
00:45:51,960 --> 00:45:53,880
Like I think Australian culture
is very different to American

842
00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:56,120
culture, especially in this
regard.

843
00:45:56,120 --> 00:46:01,640
So many of those, so many of
those that the ones that you

844
00:46:01,640 --> 00:46:05,880
mentioned, except for any
skeptic come out of come out of

845
00:46:05,880 --> 00:46:07,800
like that American kind of
culture, right?

846
00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:14,440
That is intensely, weirdly
Christian right wing, like all

847
00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:18,120
that cultural stuff that is so
much of Christianity over in

848
00:46:18,120 --> 00:46:19,600
America.
It's quite different here in

849
00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:21,960
Australia.
I think thankfully though,

850
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:26,640
though there is leanings towards
that which is scary and I hate

851
00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:34,040
and can't believe that.
But this to say, I think, I

852
00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:40,800
think whenever we put the term
Christian as a descriptor of

853
00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:45,880
music, like that's just that's
more a commercialism,

854
00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:49,960
advertising thing, like it's
trying to put them put people

855
00:46:49,960 --> 00:46:56,040
into a into a box so that they
can sell what was in my data,

856
00:46:56,040 --> 00:46:57,920
what's called these days.
But in my day when I used to

857
00:46:57,920 --> 00:47:00,080
listen to all that Christian
music was called contemporary

858
00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:02,360
Christian music.
CCM was the industry was the

859
00:47:02,360 --> 00:47:05,480
same.
That same made a lot of money

860
00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:08,920
because and realise that the
people who are running that

861
00:47:08,920 --> 00:47:12,320
scene realise they could make a
lot of money if they had very

862
00:47:12,320 --> 00:47:15,840
stringent protective borders on
who contemporary Christian music

863
00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:19,760
was written by.
Because that scene over there,

864
00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:22,400
that cultural scene has very
stringent protective borders

865
00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:24,800
around the whole everything to
do with their faith, right.

866
00:47:25,520 --> 00:47:29,160
I mean, I don't know, I don't
know the Christian cultural

867
00:47:29,160 --> 00:47:32,160
scene enough at all today.
I'm not part of it in any sense

868
00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:37,320
in that world at all.
And so I don't know whether it's

869
00:47:37,320 --> 00:47:44,480
better or different or not.
What I would say is that I think

870
00:47:44,480 --> 00:47:48,760
if you find an artist who's just
like I, I just finished watching

871
00:47:48,760 --> 00:47:52,800
last night the Bob Dylan biopic,
whatever the name of it was that

872
00:47:52,840 --> 00:47:56,920
came out, came out really
recently completely unknown

873
00:47:57,320 --> 00:48:01,480
which had which was great.
And I thought they could have

874
00:48:01,480 --> 00:48:04,320
done better in different parts.
But anyway, this to say, I think

875
00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:09,280
no matter who we're listening
to, I, I would never listen to

876
00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:11,800
someone these days and say, oh,
that's a Christian artist.

877
00:48:11,800 --> 00:48:17,480
Oh, that's a secular artist.
Such a weird Christian culture

878
00:48:17,480 --> 00:48:21,120
distinction.
So I think it's just embracing

879
00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:24,480
whoever you want to embrace and
loving whatever whatever music's

880
00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:26,720
coming out from, whatever music
you'd love to hear.

881
00:48:27,080 --> 00:48:28,520
Yeah, for sure.
Just just.

882
00:48:28,720 --> 00:48:30,000
Just keeping it simple I
suppose.

883
00:48:31,160 --> 00:48:32,160
Good stuff.
Thanks, Joe.

884
00:48:32,160 --> 00:48:32,880
I.
Appreciate you.

885
00:48:33,200 --> 00:48:34,720
Yeah.
Just grappling with the the

886
00:48:34,720 --> 00:48:37,200
questions now.
You nowadays, you really have

887
00:48:37,200 --> 00:48:40,760
turned a a creative corner.
You know, you've you've dived

888
00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:42,640
head first into children's
fiction.

889
00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:46,200
I know that you started with a a
graphic novel of sorts through

890
00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:49,000
through Larrikin House
Publishing.

891
00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:51,480
My old mate James Leighton
taking care of you there.

892
00:48:51,480 --> 00:48:52,600
Oh, Leighton.
Yeah.

893
00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:54,560
Yeah, Leighton.
Yeah, he was.

894
00:48:54,560 --> 00:48:59,880
My He was my youth pastor.
Many, many few years ago.

895
00:48:59,880 --> 00:49:01,320
He's a, he's a good bloke.
Yeah.

896
00:49:01,320 --> 00:49:03,880
And now of course.
They're starting this new heist

897
00:49:03,880 --> 00:49:08,040
trilogy with a Random House, so
branching into fiction, stepping

898
00:49:08,040 --> 00:49:11,080
up into Public Speakers
Australia, a professional

899
00:49:11,080 --> 00:49:12,040
speakers Australia, I should
say.

900
00:49:12,640 --> 00:49:15,600
What has it been like to start
to work on new things, new

901
00:49:15,600 --> 00:49:20,040
endeavours, and expand what you
are known for, I suppose, and

902
00:49:20,040 --> 00:49:22,360
what you do?
Well, I mean, this is the other.

903
00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:25,120
This is the other thing that I
that I should have said and will

904
00:49:25,120 --> 00:49:28,560
say now to any listeners who are
wanting to continue to develop

905
00:49:28,560 --> 00:49:31,640
themselves both career wise and
and artistically wise.

906
00:49:31,640 --> 00:49:35,760
Don't settle in for, don't
settle for becoming called a

907
00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:37,840
slam poet.
You are not a slam poet.

908
00:49:38,600 --> 00:49:40,640
That's a part of what you do
100%.

909
00:49:40,640 --> 00:49:42,360
But geez you can be so much
more.

910
00:49:42,880 --> 00:49:47,360
There is people who can 0IN on
one particular thing and just

911
00:49:47,360 --> 00:49:52,040
slam poetry from the stage in a
slam poetry mode might be their

912
00:49:52,040 --> 00:49:54,800
thing.
But even if that's your thing,

913
00:49:55,040 --> 00:50:00,400
you start grabbing ideas and and
creative practices and modes

914
00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:04,120
from other modalities, it can
only enhance what you were doing

915
00:50:04,120 --> 00:50:05,920
on the stage in that slam poetry
moment.

916
00:50:06,160 --> 00:50:09,120
And so I've always been someone
that's pushed, pushed myself to

917
00:50:09,120 --> 00:50:10,960
the next thing to the next thing
to the next thing.

918
00:50:11,200 --> 00:50:14,520
I started off within the slam
poetry scene, but very quickly

919
00:50:14,520 --> 00:50:16,480
was like, I need some music with
this.

920
00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:20,680
Mina Shamali, have you had Mina
on the on the podcast?

921
00:50:21,680 --> 00:50:25,200
Have you maybe Somali?
Oh, he's, oh, he's a beautiful

922
00:50:25,200 --> 00:50:29,080
man who's a poet and a musician.
So I got him to come alongside

923
00:50:29,080 --> 00:50:31,720
and then a bunch of other
musicians who would come and

924
00:50:31,720 --> 00:50:33,600
they'd play music with my
poetry.

925
00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:36,240
So I went into that.
I went into making then the

926
00:50:36,360 --> 00:50:39,760
poetry videos.
I started branching out, as I

927
00:50:39,760 --> 00:50:43,440
said, out of the poetry world
and starting perform to perform

928
00:50:43,480 --> 00:50:47,840
and do stuff more for others
who'd not part of the poetry

929
00:50:47,840 --> 00:50:49,960
scene.
Then started writing more stuff

930
00:50:49,960 --> 00:50:55,280
as differently as well.
Started bringing in, bringing in

931
00:50:55,280 --> 00:50:57,680
fiction works and writing more
fiction style.

932
00:50:58,160 --> 00:51:02,920
Then over COVID, over COVID, I,
Oh, and theatre as well.

933
00:51:02,920 --> 00:51:06,720
So before COVID, I'd done it.
I, I wrote and, and performed,

934
00:51:06,720 --> 00:51:09,120
starred in a theatre show called
The People of the Sun with Anna

935
00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:12,480
Mcgahn, who was another big part
of the poetry scene for a long

936
00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:14,840
time.
And then started going into more

937
00:51:14,840 --> 00:51:18,840
the fiction stuff over COVID.
Wrote these fiction stories for

938
00:51:18,840 --> 00:51:22,360
kids and that turned into a
graphic novel series and then I

939
00:51:22,360 --> 00:51:25,000
was turned into Penguin.
I'm writing verse novels at the

940
00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:27,280
moment as well with some verse
novelists.

941
00:51:28,120 --> 00:51:30,680
I'm writing more fiction
stories, fantasy stories.

942
00:51:30,680 --> 00:51:34,000
I'm writing poetry every day.
I don't think there's any excuse

943
00:51:34,000 --> 00:51:37,320
for not broadening yourself out
as much as you can.

944
00:51:37,320 --> 00:51:40,400
Even if, as I said, even if the
output is going to be your 3

945
00:51:40,400 --> 00:51:43,160
minutes on stage at a slam
poetry event, it's going to

946
00:51:43,160 --> 00:51:46,360
become better because you play
with improv theatre, because you

947
00:51:46,360 --> 00:51:51,000
play with physical theatre,
because you go to, I went to a

948
00:51:51,000 --> 00:51:53,280
stand up comedy.
I literally just walked into a

949
00:51:53,280 --> 00:51:56,800
stand up comedy night the other
night just to be a part of.

950
00:51:56,800 --> 00:51:58,520
I was walking on the street and
the doors were open and said

951
00:51:58,520 --> 00:52:02,520
stand up comedy doesn't.
And so bringing comedy, like I

952
00:52:02,520 --> 00:52:05,320
think, I think it's an
imperative for any artist to be

953
00:52:05,320 --> 00:52:07,960
stretching themselves out and
pushing themselves in UA's all

954
00:52:07,960 --> 00:52:11,840
the time.
Love that.

955
00:52:12,600 --> 00:52:16,560
In amongst all the new stuff, is
there a a project or an idea or

956
00:52:16,560 --> 00:52:19,600
an art form that you haven't
explored yet, but that you would

957
00:52:19,600 --> 00:52:21,960
love to pursue given the the
time, the resources?

958
00:52:22,760 --> 00:52:28,240
Oh, I'm sure there.
Is I oh over COVID as at the

959
00:52:28,240 --> 00:52:30,600
start of COVID too, I was doing
a lot of painting.

960
00:52:31,280 --> 00:52:33,560
It became my thing for a while
and I brought together a

961
00:52:34,040 --> 00:52:39,840
bringing together poetry and
painting and also etching the

962
00:52:40,000 --> 00:52:43,160
the drawings onto the back of
skateboards and did a whole

963
00:52:43,640 --> 00:52:46,320
exhibition of those online
exhibition at the start of

964
00:52:46,320 --> 00:52:51,080
COVID, which was really fun,
called Human, an exploration of

965
00:52:51,080 --> 00:52:53,000
the inner life based all around
the Enneagram.

966
00:52:53,000 --> 00:52:55,200
If anyone knows the Enneagram,
yes.

967
00:52:55,720 --> 00:52:59,400
But these these days what have I
not?

968
00:52:59,440 --> 00:53:02,440
Well, actually I had a really
great conversation the other day

969
00:53:02,440 --> 00:53:06,880
and was trying to hold it in
with an event manager in another

970
00:53:06,880 --> 00:53:10,480
state and she was talking about
how she a bunch of the events

971
00:53:10,480 --> 00:53:16,200
she does.
She works with with the well in

972
00:53:16,200 --> 00:53:19,120
WA, She works with the WA
Symphony Orchestra.

973
00:53:19,120 --> 00:53:22,200
And she's like, I would love you
to come and do some work with an

974
00:53:22,200 --> 00:53:25,560
orchestra with, with WA Symphony
Orchestra an event sometime.

975
00:53:25,560 --> 00:53:29,640
Let's work it out and inside I'm
like, this has been like a dream

976
00:53:29,680 --> 00:53:32,360
of mine all my life.
I'd love to do poetry with a

977
00:53:32,360 --> 00:53:35,560
Symphony Orchestra.
I know there's a few of I think

978
00:53:36,240 --> 00:53:40,400
I think Luca lesson has done
some some work with Symphony or

979
00:53:40,640 --> 00:53:43,880
I'd I'd that would be a rude,
but I had to hold it in.

980
00:53:43,880 --> 00:53:46,040
I'm like, Oh yeah, sure, I could
do that.

981
00:53:46,040 --> 00:53:49,280
That sounds like something I
could be into and my insides go,

982
00:53:49,360 --> 00:53:51,320
yes, please make it happen, Make
it happen.

983
00:53:51,680 --> 00:53:56,080
So yeah, maybe, maybe doing,
doing performing with a Symphony

984
00:53:56,080 --> 00:53:57,920
Orchestra would be next level
amazing.

985
00:53:57,920 --> 00:54:00,240
I'd love it.
I'm sure it would.

986
00:54:00,480 --> 00:54:03,760
So, you know, Sleeping At Last
creates those songs about the

987
00:54:03,800 --> 00:54:05,080
Enneagram and you're out here
making.

988
00:54:05,280 --> 00:54:07,600
Yeah, I love it.
Yeah.

989
00:54:07,600 --> 00:54:08,200
Yeah.
That's right.

990
00:54:08,200 --> 00:54:10,280
Yeah.
So it was a whole series on each

991
00:54:10,400 --> 00:54:13,240
each Enneagram type I wrote a
poem for, et cetera.

992
00:54:13,560 --> 00:54:16,240
So what's next for you, Joel?
Obviously you got your hands

993
00:54:16,240 --> 00:54:18,240
full with touring at the moment,
but what do you, what do you see

994
00:54:18,240 --> 00:54:20,040
the rest of 2025 holding for
you?

995
00:54:20,160 --> 00:54:23,280
I'm pretty booked out for 2020.
5 which is lovely.

996
00:54:23,280 --> 00:54:25,960
I have a number of different
festival and festivals and

997
00:54:25,960 --> 00:54:29,040
events so I do a lot of riding,
writing, festival.

998
00:54:29,040 --> 00:54:31,240
I'm about to go up soon to
Sydney Riders Festival.

999
00:54:31,240 --> 00:54:34,680
I'm hosting, speaking and
hosting all the primary school

1000
00:54:34,680 --> 00:54:39,040
days for that.
And then I have another literary

1001
00:54:39,040 --> 00:54:41,640
festival, Words on the Waves,
and I've got ASLA, which is the

1002
00:54:41,640 --> 00:54:44,600
Australian School Librarian
Association.

1003
00:54:44,600 --> 00:54:48,240
Then I'm up in Cairns for the
Cairns Tropical Innovation

1004
00:54:48,240 --> 00:54:51,320
Festival, where I'm speaking
about creativity and innovation.

1005
00:54:51,880 --> 00:54:54,000
Yeah, which will be fun.
I'm heading over.

1006
00:54:54,000 --> 00:54:57,720
Actually, I'm heading over.
I just got invited back to Story

1007
00:54:57,720 --> 00:55:00,320
Gathering.
So I'm heading over to America

1008
00:55:00,520 --> 00:55:03,440
later this year for two
conferences for Promoting

1009
00:55:03,440 --> 00:55:06,280
Passion Conference, this
incredible photography

1010
00:55:06,280 --> 00:55:10,040
creativity gathering, and then
we'll stick around for a week

1011
00:55:10,040 --> 00:55:13,640
and then go to Story Gathering
in Nashville again.

1012
00:55:13,640 --> 00:55:15,600
So super excited to be back at
that.

1013
00:55:16,680 --> 00:55:22,520
I'm doing the Dymocks, Dymocks
Children's Charity Festival.

1014
00:55:22,520 --> 00:55:26,760
I'm doing Once Upon a Once Upon
a festival as a schools literary

1015
00:55:26,760 --> 00:55:30,000
festival in Adelaide.
I'm doing tons and tons of

1016
00:55:30,000 --> 00:55:34,680
schools.
So lots, lots and lots, which is

1017
00:55:34,680 --> 00:55:36,520
the way that I like it.
I'm doing lots and I'm also

1018
00:55:36,520 --> 00:55:38,240
writing lots.
So I'm, I'm the kind of crazy

1019
00:55:38,240 --> 00:55:42,200
person who has like 10 different
projects on at the same time.

1020
00:55:42,200 --> 00:55:44,840
I've got my own verse novel
trilogy that I'm writing at the

1021
00:55:44,840 --> 00:55:47,680
moment.
I'm writing a verse novel with a

1022
00:55:47,680 --> 00:55:50,520
wonderful verse novelist who won
the CBCA, which is the

1023
00:55:50,520 --> 00:55:55,280
Children's Book Book Council of
Australia award last year, the

1024
00:55:55,280 --> 00:55:57,360
year before for her verse novel
Grace Notes.

1025
00:55:57,360 --> 00:56:01,000
So we're doing a, we're doing a
collaborative thing together.

1026
00:56:01,000 --> 00:56:04,360
I've got a fantasy series
trilogy that I'm writing and

1027
00:56:04,360 --> 00:56:10,080
pitching to Penguin soon.
I've got another series as well.

1028
00:56:10,080 --> 00:56:14,360
So I'm, I'm constantly all the
things is the answer.

1029
00:56:14,360 --> 00:56:16,440
I love being busy.
I love creating.

1030
00:56:16,440 --> 00:56:18,800
I love being as prolific as I
can.

1031
00:56:19,840 --> 00:56:23,560
I, I get up at 6:00 AM most
mornings that I write and I

1032
00:56:23,560 --> 00:56:26,520
write and I write and if I, if I
don't have anything on that day,

1033
00:56:26,520 --> 00:56:28,560
I'll just keep on writing until
the day ends.

1034
00:56:29,640 --> 00:56:34,920
I love it mate, it's so.
Great to hear that, that you're

1035
00:56:34,920 --> 00:56:38,880
so full of vitality and and
that's, you know, success is

1036
00:56:38,880 --> 00:56:41,640
coming your way.
It's it's so well deserved.

1037
00:56:41,640 --> 00:56:44,280
And yeah, good on you for for
getting back into Nashville.

1038
00:56:44,280 --> 00:56:47,000
I know a lot of people are kind
of opting out of going to the US

1039
00:56:47,000 --> 00:56:49,120
at the moment, but you're.
Yeah, that's a little weird.

1040
00:56:49,120 --> 00:56:49,880
Yeah.
That's doing that.

1041
00:56:50,480 --> 00:56:51,480
No.
Well, there's a part of me

1042
00:56:51,480 --> 00:56:53,400
that's.
Like, oh shit, is it gonna, is

1043
00:56:53,400 --> 00:56:54,080
it?
Will I?

1044
00:56:54,840 --> 00:56:56,320
Hopefully it'll be fine.
Who knows?

1045
00:56:56,320 --> 00:56:59,160
Yeah, watch out for ice when you
get there.

1046
00:56:59,160 --> 00:57:00,360
You'll be right.
Yeah, that's right.

1047
00:57:02,600 --> 00:57:05,600
Now coming to kind of the pointy
end of our time together, Joel

1048
00:57:05,840 --> 00:57:07,360
and kind of back to the
orchestra thing.

1049
00:57:07,360 --> 00:57:10,080
We we have this overarching
analogy for season 2 where I

1050
00:57:10,080 --> 00:57:13,160
asked my guest if your.
Creative work was an.

1051
00:57:13,160 --> 00:57:16,520
Instrument in an orchestra.
A creative work orchestra.

1052
00:57:16,520 --> 00:57:18,120
What instrument do you think it
is, Joel?

1053
00:57:18,560 --> 00:57:20,560
I think what I.
Would like it to be.

1054
00:57:20,560 --> 00:57:26,240
I think probably what it is is I
love the moment in an orchestra

1055
00:57:26,240 --> 00:57:32,600
where the lead violinist, where
the first violinist just starts

1056
00:57:32,600 --> 00:57:37,760
to take off and separates out
from kind of distinctively.

1057
00:57:37,760 --> 00:57:40,800
You start to hear the higher
notes of that first violinist

1058
00:57:41,200 --> 00:57:44,520
come in and plays like almost
the violin solo.

1059
00:57:46,240 --> 00:57:50,440
It's like that, that melody that
just lifts above what is

1060
00:57:50,440 --> 00:57:53,720
happening and people take notice
of people.

1061
00:57:53,720 --> 00:57:56,840
Like it's the one for me that
moves me the most that when I

1062
00:57:56,840 --> 00:58:00,880
hear the violinist start to go
there, I'm like, oh, I lean into

1063
00:58:00,880 --> 00:58:03,960
the moment.
My hope is that my poetry is

1064
00:58:03,960 --> 00:58:08,360
that kind of moment for people
that all that part of my poetry

1065
00:58:08,360 --> 00:58:11,480
are that they're hearing what I
do and then I tap into to a

1066
00:58:11,480 --> 00:58:14,320
certain way and they start
leaning in and hearing those

1067
00:58:14,480 --> 00:58:16,440
beautiful notes of the
violinist.

1068
00:58:16,440 --> 00:58:17,880
Maybe that's that's what I'd
say.

1069
00:58:18,800 --> 00:58:21,240
Is it the violin that also?
Helps the other instruments kind

1070
00:58:21,240 --> 00:58:22,840
of tune at the start, but kind
of play OneNote.

1071
00:58:22,840 --> 00:58:25,040
They go here and that's the warm
up part.

1072
00:58:25,680 --> 00:58:28,840
Yeah, I think it could.
Be Yeah, I want to go back to my

1073
00:58:28,840 --> 00:58:33,000
orchestra friends to ask them,
but I think, I think it could be

1074
00:58:33,000 --> 00:58:35,720
the lead violinist, the first
violinist who does that too,

1075
00:58:35,920 --> 00:58:39,480
which is kind of nice too.
I like that analogy for sure.

1076
00:58:39,480 --> 00:58:41,440
For sure.
Well, thank you for for being a

1077
00:58:41,440 --> 00:58:44,240
part of our orchestra.
Now you've been left a a

1078
00:58:44,240 --> 00:58:45,960
question from my previous
guests.

1079
00:58:46,320 --> 00:58:49,040
This is the segment called the
Diary of a POET.

1080
00:58:49,280 --> 00:58:51,360
The question is from Ren
Rapture.

1081
00:58:51,960 --> 00:58:54,800
Oh, Ren.
Yeah, you better.

1082
00:58:54,880 --> 00:58:56,720
Ask it better have asked me a
good question.

1083
00:58:56,720 --> 00:59:01,800
Ren, and the question is.
Joe Mccaro, what do you?

1084
00:59:01,800 --> 00:59:04,400
Really want to.
Say oh.

1085
00:59:04,440 --> 00:59:05,920
Yeah, that's the kind of
question she would ask.

1086
00:59:07,720 --> 00:59:11,640
Maybe for listeners.
What I want to say is this.

1087
00:59:12,960 --> 00:59:16,720
When you're on the stage, you
are there to serve the people

1088
00:59:17,480 --> 00:59:19,360
that are sitting in front of
you.

1089
00:59:19,360 --> 00:59:24,840
And what that means for me,
something that I when I go to

1090
00:59:24,880 --> 00:59:27,880
poetry events and poetry slam
events, one of the things that

1091
00:59:29,640 --> 00:59:33,800
we see too often is we see poets
bleeding on the stage.

1092
00:59:35,120 --> 00:59:39,400
And I think in other words,
poets, poets going through

1093
00:59:39,400 --> 00:59:43,720
therapy on the stage that they
are bringing not.

1094
00:59:44,120 --> 00:59:47,520
And this is not to say don't
bring your authentic story and

1095
00:59:47,520 --> 00:59:52,080
your authentic voice, but I
think it's about tell the story

1096
00:59:52,080 --> 00:59:55,120
of your scars, not of your open
wounds.

1097
00:59:55,600 --> 01:00:00,640
If you're in the midst of an
open wound kind of story, then

1098
01:00:01,440 --> 01:00:06,720
you don't need to share that in
front of 80 strangers and cause

1099
01:00:06,760 --> 01:00:09,200
'cause you doing that, it's
actually more about you, not

1100
01:00:09,200 --> 01:00:11,600
about you serving the people who
you've come to.

1101
01:00:11,600 --> 01:00:14,360
And we've all had those.
We all know those moments at

1102
01:00:14,360 --> 01:00:16,520
poetry nights and poetry events
where.

1103
01:00:17,240 --> 01:00:21,680
It feels like someone is trying
to suck counselling energy from

1104
01:00:21,680 --> 01:00:23,200
the stage and from the people
there.

1105
01:00:23,200 --> 01:00:26,680
And I think it does them and and
the audience A disservice.

1106
01:00:27,640 --> 01:00:30,280
Again, not to say that we
shouldn't show up in our

1107
01:00:30,280 --> 01:00:34,080
vulnerabilities and our
authenticity and, and talk about

1108
01:00:34,080 --> 01:00:36,480
the hard things and the things
that matter and sometimes the

1109
01:00:36,480 --> 01:00:38,200
things that are current and
present.

1110
01:00:38,200 --> 01:00:41,960
But if we get I, I suppose what
I'd say to people is that if you

1111
01:00:41,960 --> 01:00:45,040
get down from stage and someone
says, Oh yeah, well, that was an

1112
01:00:45,040 --> 01:00:48,040
average piece of poetry.
If that shatters you, then

1113
01:00:48,040 --> 01:00:49,960
you've shared something too
quickly.

1114
01:00:50,360 --> 01:00:53,520
Like hold on to it and let it
percolate.

1115
01:00:53,520 --> 01:01:01,240
Let it be, let it be for you.
Like do your writing for you and

1116
01:01:01,240 --> 01:01:03,520
then offer it as a gift to this
world.

1117
01:01:03,680 --> 01:01:09,400
Do the the therapeutic cathartic
work that that writing gives us,

1118
01:01:10,520 --> 01:01:14,320
but don't demand your audience
to be a counselor for you.

1119
01:01:15,040 --> 01:01:16,280
Absolutely.
I mean that.

1120
01:01:16,320 --> 01:01:19,920
It's very wise and it's very
similar to something Johnny

1121
01:01:19,920 --> 01:01:23,200
Glazos and myself discussed on
on his episode as well.

1122
01:01:23,200 --> 01:01:26,920
Yeah, just feeling a bit of a
sense of sense of responsibility

1123
01:01:26,920 --> 01:01:29,680
to, to care for the audience and
not leave them in a space where

1124
01:01:29,680 --> 01:01:33,360
they feel like they have to
carry you, experiencing

1125
01:01:33,360 --> 01:01:34,560
something with you or being
carried.

1126
01:01:34,600 --> 01:01:36,040
Yeah.
Yeah, that's a beautiful way.

1127
01:01:36,040 --> 01:01:36,560
Very good.
And.

1128
01:01:36,560 --> 01:01:38,480
That's that's that's my answer
to Ren's question.

1129
01:01:40,480 --> 01:01:43,720
Absolutely, it's a good one.
Joe, you now have the

1130
01:01:44,000 --> 01:01:47,920
responsibility, nay, the honor,
nay, the responsibility to leave

1131
01:01:47,920 --> 01:01:51,520
a question for the next guest
sight unseen.

1132
01:01:51,520 --> 01:01:54,200
So what do you want to ask?
Oh.

1133
01:01:54,280 --> 01:02:01,880
What should I ask?
Has there been a moment where

1134
01:02:01,880 --> 01:02:08,680
you have felt like things are
falling apart or have fallen

1135
01:02:08,680 --> 01:02:12,240
apart and it's looked dire, it's
looked down, it has not looked

1136
01:02:12,240 --> 01:02:15,600
good, whether it's in
performance or in in just in

1137
01:02:15,600 --> 01:02:18,960
life in general, and something
has turned that around.

1138
01:02:18,960 --> 01:02:22,320
What was that thing?
Were you able to turn around?

1139
01:02:22,320 --> 01:02:27,560
A dark moment and and bring
about a transformation of that

1140
01:02:27,560 --> 01:02:30,080
into something beautiful.
What did that look like for you?

1141
01:02:30,080 --> 01:02:33,560
Wow.
Fantastic question and I know

1142
01:02:33,600 --> 01:02:35,600
that you've shared, you know,
your own experiences of, of

1143
01:02:35,600 --> 01:02:39,680
turning dark to light as well.
Joe Macharo, if people want to

1144
01:02:39,680 --> 01:02:42,600
find out more about you, follow
what you're up to all over the

1145
01:02:42,600 --> 01:02:45,840
world.
Check out your books and and all

1146
01:02:45,840 --> 01:02:47,760
your amazing back catalog of
work.

1147
01:02:48,000 --> 01:02:49,720
Where's the best places they can
go?

1148
01:02:50,520 --> 01:02:54,200
So Joel Mccarrow.
Dot com is my website and and it

1149
01:02:54,200 --> 01:02:56,280
will be interesting for people
to check out anyway because I

1150
01:02:56,280 --> 01:02:58,720
have specifically and
purposefully pivoted that

1151
01:02:58,720 --> 01:03:03,120
website to being a corporate
speaker website, a keynote

1152
01:03:03,120 --> 01:03:05,880
speaker website.
So if you go there, you'll

1153
01:03:05,880 --> 01:03:09,680
notice that it's quite different
to maybe just a slam poets

1154
01:03:09,680 --> 01:03:11,680
website and very intentionally
so.

1155
01:03:12,000 --> 01:03:14,960
So it could be good to have a
look at that.

1156
01:03:14,960 --> 01:03:18,320
And, and in that you can see
there's still the section of

1157
01:03:18,320 --> 01:03:20,920
writing, still all my poetry
videos, still connections to

1158
01:03:20,920 --> 01:03:25,960
Spotify, to my podcast, to my
albums, to my books, etcetera.

1159
01:03:26,760 --> 01:03:32,000
I'm on Instagram and
occasionally on Facebook stuff

1160
01:03:32,000 --> 01:03:34,160
as well.
LinkedIn I'm on these days as

1161
01:03:34,160 --> 01:03:37,840
the main kind of things that I
use in terms of social.

1162
01:03:37,840 --> 01:03:41,000
So you can find me on there.
But yeah, brilliant and.

1163
01:03:41,000 --> 01:03:43,680
We'll have, you know, we'll have
leaks to all of that in the

1164
01:03:43,680 --> 01:03:46,840
episode description as normal.
Joel, you got one more piece

1165
01:03:46,840 --> 01:03:49,520
you're going to leave us with
before we call curtains.

1166
01:03:51,160 --> 01:03:53,760
Yeah, great.
So maybe this this Peace of Mind

1167
01:03:53,760 --> 01:03:57,960
is an all the piece, but I love
to do it especially for poets to

1168
01:03:57,960 --> 01:04:00,080
remind us of why we do what we
do.

1169
01:04:00,080 --> 01:04:04,040
It's a piece called cartography,
and it goes something like this.

1170
01:04:06,120 --> 01:04:09,920
See, I once saw a girl empty
herself out upon a napkin.

1171
01:04:10,640 --> 01:04:13,360
Ink met tears, and the paper
wept.

1172
01:04:14,240 --> 01:04:16,520
She screwed it up, threw it
down, and walked away.

1173
01:04:16,520 --> 01:04:18,400
IA teenager.
I couldn't help myself.

1174
01:04:18,400 --> 01:04:20,960
I reached over, took her
crumpled story, and I laid it

1175
01:04:21,280 --> 01:04:26,440
gently out upon the table.
You see, paper is a precious

1176
01:04:26,440 --> 01:04:29,920
thing.
It is willing, it takes in upon

1177
01:04:29,920 --> 01:04:33,720
itself our very wounds, our very
wishes, our splotch and

1178
01:04:33,720 --> 01:04:37,360
splatter, the blood of income.
Paper spilt, lyrics slack, spilt

1179
01:04:37,360 --> 01:04:40,280
milk spilt rhythms spilt rhymes.
She spilt this time.

1180
01:04:40,280 --> 01:04:43,840
So I leant over the words and
studied the contours.

1181
01:04:43,840 --> 01:04:49,920
This crumpled map of sorrow, a
poetry spilt as mountain on

1182
01:04:49,920 --> 01:04:54,760
parchment, A deep lake and the
cut through river, A valley

1183
01:04:54,760 --> 01:04:59,560
where the lonely wander and a
forest too dark, guarded only by

1184
01:04:59,560 --> 01:05:04,120
the map of ink spilt on napkin.
I I found myself walking the

1185
01:05:04,120 --> 01:05:07,880
edges of her life.
You see, cartography.

1186
01:05:08,480 --> 01:05:12,160
It is based on the premise that
reality can be modelled like the

1187
01:05:12,160 --> 01:05:16,240
stretch of a landscape laid flat
out on the paper.

1188
01:05:16,240 --> 01:05:21,760
For we writers, we are sailors,
and our ships are our craft, and

1189
01:05:21,760 --> 01:05:27,240
the ocean is our imagination,
and the wind that fills our

1190
01:05:27,240 --> 01:05:32,240
sails is something that we know
but can barely even name, yet it

1191
01:05:32,520 --> 01:05:37,800
drives us forward, a Gale that
began inside us.

1192
01:05:37,800 --> 01:05:42,640
Every word is an island.
Every story is a mountain.

1193
01:05:42,640 --> 01:05:46,680
Every time I speak, I am drawing
this world for you.

1194
01:05:46,760 --> 01:05:49,320
I am setting sail and
navigation.

1195
01:05:49,320 --> 01:05:53,440
We are sailors.
We are the map makers, tracing

1196
01:05:53,640 --> 01:05:59,240
lines of a land that others
cannot see, the uncharted and

1197
01:05:59,240 --> 01:06:03,720
the unresolved.
There be Dragons here.

1198
01:06:04,600 --> 01:06:08,320
There be shadow and there'd be
nightmare and there'd be wonders

1199
01:06:08,320 --> 01:06:12,080
more beautiful than you could
ever imagine in this writing,

1200
01:06:12,080 --> 01:06:16,560
the direction, the way through.
A writer and a cartographer,

1201
01:06:17,960 --> 01:06:22,960
they are one and the same.
So come sail with me, friends.

1202
01:06:23,000 --> 01:06:26,640
Be curious with me, wonder with
me.

1203
01:06:26,640 --> 01:06:30,320
See artistry where others only
see ugly.

1204
01:06:30,320 --> 01:06:35,040
And you, you go inside, sail
inside.

1205
01:06:35,040 --> 01:06:40,680
Name those parts of yourself you
have been too afraid to name

1206
01:06:40,680 --> 01:06:44,960
before.
Come sailing with me, friends,

1207
01:06:46,200 --> 01:06:54,800
come sailing with me.
And as you, as you scribe your

1208
01:06:54,800 --> 01:07:03,000
life down on paper, may that
paper become the map that others

1209
01:07:03,000 --> 01:07:09,600
need to find their way home.
Offer it as a gift to this

1210
01:07:09,600 --> 01:07:13,360
world.
Come sail with me, friends.

1211
01:07:14,320 --> 01:07:19,880
Come sail with me.
Wow.

1212
01:07:20,680 --> 01:07:24,200
Joe Machiro, I am deeply, deeply
grateful for your time here

1213
01:07:24,200 --> 01:07:28,440
today and grateful for your your
leadership and the fact that you

1214
01:07:28,440 --> 01:07:32,840
have written a map for so many
of us to to follow.

1215
01:07:32,840 --> 01:07:36,760
So thank you for thinking with
us and slamming with us today.

1216
01:07:37,280 --> 01:07:38,360
Thank you so much mate.
It's.

1217
01:07:38,360 --> 01:07:40,520
Been a privilege to be get to be
on your podcast.

1218
01:07:40,520 --> 01:07:41,600
I love it.
Thanks, Andrew.