Andrew Horner - Poetry Is a Friend in the Dark

0:00 Slam poetry doesn't care if it's perfect. It's time to slam. It's the biggest poem I've got inside of her. She was a thief. You love me to love a haunted house. Angry. Blood black nothingness began to spin. This day. I hate pork. Chops. I am the master, I am the captain from across the pond. It's I think therefore I slam the podcast bringing you the best spoken word in slam poetry artist from Australia and beyond. Today we have Auk guest. My guest today is an actor, poet and voice over artist and a host on the popular movie podcast Rage Whale.

0:42 He's played many characters both on stage and screen, as well as voicing characters for video games such as Divinity Original Sin 2 and Augmented Empire. He uses his voice to perform spoken word pieces and he's now published 2 poetry collections, the first My Life in Pieces and more recently Drunk on Lies, Sober on Truth. His spoken word album is called Strong Enough to Break under the name Creative Tales with his creative partner and music producer, composer Tomas Almeida. With his poetry, he aims to break stigmas on important topics like mental health, suicide awareness and phone addiction. He's righting the wrongs that society may choose to ignore. Please welcome Andrew Horner. Thank you, man.

1:23 Thank you. I feel guilty about that, that whole kind of monologue you have to read out at the beginning. But yeah, it's lovely to be here and thank you so much for having me on as a guest. I've seen you've got lots of great guests on here and I'm honoured to be amongst them. One in particular, RK Gandhi, yes, big, big fan. Not only is he a great soul of a person and a lovely friend, but he's an incredible talent and a huge inspiration to me. And he actually features in my latest book. He was kind enough to go, I was stalking him and be like, dude, can we put that collab in the book? And he was like, yeah, go. And then I was like, yes, so yeah, he's an absolute legend, so truly, truly honoured. I fully agree. Yeah. RK Ravi was on last season and and we had a great chat.

2:05 He's built himself a fantastic little creative community that follows his work. So he's the one who pointed me your way. And yeah, really, really keen to have you on today. So Andrew, we're really keen to hear your first piece. You're welcome to open the floor with a little intro or you're welcome to jump right in. Whatever takes your fancy. Sure, sure. So this is from the book Junk and Lie Sober on Truth, which is my latest one. I'll just jump in with a piece called 100 Years, 100 Years, 100 Ways, 100 Problems and Nothing's Changed. 100 Excuses, but we're the ones to blame. 100 opportunities that sadly died in vain.

2:46 Charlie Chaplin wrote such a profound speech trying to explain, he stopped miming and finally gave his character a voice and this problem a name. But in those times it was just entertainment and leisure. Souls that didn't look between the lines because they didn't know any better. The elite and wealthy drunk on pleasure, while the poor and working class are drinking up the debts and pain. Somebody please try to explain. The class divides keep on clashing over and over, again and again. The rules black and white, the screens black and white. Now in a world filled with colour. But we still can't get it right. Food is a right, not a privilege. Why do we just hear but never take the initiative? Listen with eyes but lacking the knowledge and courage. World problems are just sick entertainment to decorate newspapers or release on TV.

3:39 It's sadly the most important things that are never taken seriously. Guns are still available to get so many even after wars and mass shootings. But that's just the way it is sadly. Our complex world with an abstract reality. It's OK for lives to be taken as long as others are making money. We excuse human behaviour and mental health as random acts of violence, but who are we kidding? Well clearly ourselves. Greed is the need that so many companies seem to feed yet other souls have nothing to eat. Brokers fuck with broken shoes barely covering feet. Watching the lifestyle of the wealthy and elite weighing up our lives as we question whether we can afford lighting or heat.

4:24 So many struggling to make ends meet or we get front row seats to watch those wealthy quality streets enjoy themselves and cashing in on treats. These are just words that will slip by the minds and ears as our world problems fester for another 100 years. But wait, Mother Earth has had enough of our shit as she decides to wipe the slate, allowing only bacteria and small living organisms to populate. We were just a test, a human experiment. How many times can we fail her before she says it's too late? Woo biting social commentary. I like it, Drew. I like it. A piece like that feels very timely right now. We're recording in, in late March and I'm, I'm hearing stuff about war, I'm hearing stuff about greed, I'm hearing stuff about inequality.

5:14 You know, these are these are these real timeless themes I think that we we see all over literature and all over poetry as well. It's true, man. Yeah, we're in some crazy times right now. I feel like as artists, it's our job to kind of paint a picture of the times because if you look throughout history, that's what all of the greats have done, you know? And, and it just, I feel like with the way the world is right now, with freedom of speech in a really frightening way, that poetry is the only way to stay sane because it's like you're able to voice an opinion, but done in a kind of under a kind of artistic vacuum, if that if that makes sense. But yeah, it's, it's, it's crazy times, man.

5:54 We just got to pull together and but I think art can heal us. Like as cheesy as that sounds, I think art reminds us of the qualities of being human or what it feels like to to feel something or to go through something difficult and and get to the other side so we can hopefully inspire each other through words. For sure. Like I think storytelling is really important as in, I guess building a narrative or building a counter narrative to the narrative. You know, if the narrative is war and greed and inequality and these big looming negative things, what is the Count's narrative? Well, it's, it's the street level, it's the relational level, it's the hope and peace and love level. You know, all those good things. 100% just to caveat that though, I just want to make people aware that the book isn't as bleak as that, because even AI said in one of its things it said that no matter how bleak the picture of the kind of humanity is painted all the way the world is right now, there is still lots of aspects of hope sprinkled throughout the book.

6:54 Good. Stuff. So you got, you got range is what you're saying? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not like someone's going to pick it up and go, Oh my God, this is, this is not the one. No, there's, there's, there's humour in there. You know, it's a whole mixed bag. It's like a a bag of licorice, all sorts, but from a poetry standpoint, so. Yeah, life's a box of licorice. All sorts, as Forrest Gump said. And, and hopefully you're not allergic to licorice. Otherwise, yeah, just don't, don't open the bag, Don't open the bag. Andrew, we are, you know, we are a hemisphere away from each other, you and I. But I want to know what your origin story is, so to speak, of starting to share your work in in the public forum like we're doing today. How did you get started? That's a really good question man.

7:35 If I'm honest, I think it was it was it was locked down when it already happened because I did a lot of poetry when I was at drama school. Like if I had very difficult days, I'd just go off into like the kind of costume department area, which is very quiet. And I'd just write out my feelings, which was helpful. But I was kind of a closet poet in a weird way because I felt felt like poetry had a bit of a kind of bad press to it. It felt very kind of roses are red, violets are blue, just kind of a little bit cheesy. And people didn't quite. Yeah. So it wasn't till I got a bit older that I realised that the poetry is a really profound way of expressing one's feelings and and through storytelling as well.

8:18 And it gave me flashbacks to when I was doing GCS ES and we studied an amazing poet called Simon Armitage for English. And he showed me the ability to tell stories through poetry and, and how amazing that is. Because to write screenplays or novels, that takes an insane amount of skill and, and creativity. Whereas with poetry you can kind of cheat it because you don't need a beginning, a middle and an end necessarily. So, yeah, it allowed me to tell stories that way. And during lockdown, when we were given time back because we weren't going to our regular jobs and we didn't have all those other parts of our lives that we had to go to or the distractions that would take us away. I remember just lying on one of those kind of therapeutic kind of spike rugs and all these thoughts came to my mind. I love those things.

9:11 Do you do? Yeah, yeah, dude, they're amazing, man. Yeah, they. Sleep on them. They really help you sleep, especially if you're struggling with sleep and stuff like that. I think it's based on like a kind of historical thing they did way, way back when. Yeah. And yeah, all these thoughts just came to my head and it was like, and it said go back to poetry. It was like, it was like the ghosts of the past were like, go back to poetry. Come find. Come find us, man. We're we're waiting for you. And there was a whole party of words just like, hey, welcome back. Yeah. I started writing poetry. And then my friend Michael Felton, he started doing artwork for it because we we grew up with like, Roald Dahl and Quinton Blake. And I loved the idea of poetry and arts collectively together.

9:52 He started doing amazing artwork for these pieces and we started uploading it onto Instagram, which backfired. Actually, this is quite a funny story. I wanted to call it inspire radical. And then we got flagged up for being a terrorist organization. And I was like, OK, maybe because I guess the word radical and inspire. So he came up with the concept of tales. Tales from the Nook. Yeah, I think it was Tales from the Nook. No, it was Tales From and then we changed the Tales of the Nook. But yeah. And he started like putting through different pieces of, of art that were, were just incredible. And they kind of it, it summed up the piece really. I thought to myself, well, we've got all, all of this work now. So it'd be great to get a, a book made just to show we, we got something up a mountain. This kind of creative baby we made together. And we both got COVID at the time, which was horrendous. So we were kind of like trying to get through that together and all of the horrible things it came with. And we just thought how lucky we were because people were sadly dying in certain places all over the world. And we were like, my gosh, this is crazy. We're we're lucky, we're still here. And then we're like, maybe we can have something to show for our time.

11:01 And he did the amazing artwork that's in my first book, My life in pieces. As soon as the world kind of went back to some kind of normality, I looked into getting the book made and I, I couldn't believe I was able to release the first book. And during lockdown, I, I always said when the world went crazy, art kept me sane. And to go on to these lives and hear all of these amazing poets like performing and reciting poetry. I think that's what got me through lockdown really like beyond the Netflix and your Amazons and all this stuff, logging in to this beautiful kind of hub that was just thriving with art and, and poetry and just just listening to people. And then my friend Michael, he started getting bogged down with loads of other projects so he couldn't create as much art. And then he's like, dude, if you still need to create content, why don't you record your pieces? And I was like, OK, and then so I thought with a background in acting and, and voice over, I thought, why, why don't I do that?

12:04 And, and it was nice because people could see a face behind tales of the Nook. And they started to get a sense of my voice and my rhythmic cadence or, or, or whatever it is. And I started performing the pieces and it, it, it felt so nice to be able to do it the way that I'd like it to be heard, essentially. And yeah, man, that's that's how I got into it. Unreal. I mean, you know, the experience of lockdown is as different as it was around the world. I think one thing it did do was it launched 1000 Creative endeavours, you know, whether that was sourdough making, whether that was, you know, crochet or whether that was poetry. I mean, you know, I, I started my first time in podcasting mucking around during one of our lockdowns here. So it's really great to have seen some of those projects, some of those passions not only get unlocked, but sustain through to nowadays.

13:01 They haven't just, you know, died on the vine after everything goes back to to normal. It's great to hear that you've kind of carried it forward and finding new ways to express yourself. Oh, 100% man, 100%. And I, and I think if I'm honest, like that thing about poetry being therapy, which makes so much sense and the fact that it rhymes is also ironic. But because therapy is quite expensive for a lot of people these days and not everybody has the ability to go and find someone to do it. And I know they've got a lot of great online courses where you can speak to therapists or counsellors, which is incredible that more people are doing that and it doesn't have that stigma attached, which I think is great because sometimes you just need to talk about things going on in your life that you might not want to share with friends or offload on family members or things like that.

13:43 There might be too much to deal with. Poetry was such a great outlet for me in particular because I was going through a lot of stuff with family and my brother and things like that. And it really helped me with some difficult, difficult times and created some good content as well, hopefully. I was always saying that it allowed those demons to become fuel, a creative fuel, as opposed to it just, you know, building up inside and becoming something more kind of toxic. Yeah, amazing. I I know how you mentioned, you know, your first thoughts of poetry, you felt like you had to keep it a secret or something. And you know, roses, red violets are blue. It just reminds me. I've, I've shared this on, on the I think therefore I slam Instagram. Last year I, I had the privilege of going to a school and a high school running my first poetry workshop or presentation.

14:30 And I got to be honest, Drew, I bombed. And I remember one of the things we were doing just as a warm up is doing like a little roses are red, violets are blue, you know, complete this thing. And none of the students wanted to share. They won't give me anything, you know? And then one, one of them piped up and I was like, yeah, here we go. Here's here's the momentum or whatever. And everyone's silent and he, he speaks up. He goes, roses are red, violets are blue. My dog ate my homework. And then he, he bit my Dick or something like that, like, and then everyone laughs and, and whatever. I was like, oh OK, cool, we'll get there. Nice, a hard crowd. Yeah, yeah. Oh, tell me about it. Year nines never give you anything. They never give you anything. So Andrew, people are probably listening to your dulcet tones at the moment and going wow, you know, Andrew's got a lovely voice there.

15:18 Both Andrews have have lovely voices we can buy. Exactly right, yeah. You've worked as a professional voice over artist for for years, as we said in your bio, so you know, you, it's almost like you already are trained in in the instrument of poetry or or spoken word, if you like. How does performing, particularly with your voice that you started to do and and share your stuff, How does that shape the way you write or edit or choose to perform a poem? Like what? What different dimension does it give to it rather than just something on the page? Great questions. Great questions, Andrew. I'll tell you a funny thing though about it is people have started to say that when they read my book, they imagine my voice saying it. That's always nice.

16:00 That blows my mind. Like that absolutely blows my mind. It's become a like a, an air signature of my work in the way that I potentially perform something. I love hip hop. I love kind of like MCS and like garage and stuff like that. And I used to be an MC way, way, way back when, like in a, in a, in a club. My friend Azam myself slips. We used to perform at clubs and and I used to love that kind of like doing it fast, like da da da da Bah, like all this kind of stuff. And I, I wanted to try and bring a kind of hip hop infusion into my work because at one point my brother said something really funny to me. He says, you speak so fast and like, I can't appreciate a lot of the the work and, and clever kind of word play you put into it because so fast. He says normal people just take their time and speak it. I was like, yeah, but I love that kind of that flow, as it were.

16:52 And I think that's kind of just been brought, brought in there like the word play. Like I'm a massive fan of like Eminem and I listened to so much of his stuff. Like he's like a modern day Shakespeare in my humble opinion. And his word play is next level. And that was a huge inspiration to listen to artists, MC hip hop and all that. And, and to be fair, what was it? There's something that means poetry and rhymes essentially. No rap, sorry. Is, is. Yeah. Is rhythm and poetry. Sorry. That's what I meant. So. So rap breaks down for that, as is rhythm and poetry. And once I kind of started to get a sense of that, I wanted to incorporate that into my work and just kind of test myself.

17:33 Like where can I put in those metaphors, those similes, those analogies, the alliteration, My God, when you read pieces and people use like, there's like 20 different words beginning with P in something. And then we get to perform that and all the, I love it. And I get just as much fun out of recording something and imagining how it could sound. And, and I'll be honest, sometimes people might think I do it in one take, but my God, do I, I go over and over again to, to get it write when I'm recording something to get it through. But also when I'd write a piece, I'd return to it. It would just keep building. I was never necessarily one of these people that could write a piece straight off the bat. Like I'd always return to it and work on it and, and carve bits and tweak bits.

18:16 And yeah, like, it's almost like someone has a, you know, you're, you're kind of chipping away at something to carve it into something, you know, making a table out of a trunk of a tree or something, you know? I think there is so much interesting overlap between between music and and writing and poetry. And I guess I think my way in through the musicality side of it was not so much rap. Rap was not something that I didn't appreciate but but just didn't really relate to. It's not, you know, it's not from my culture, you know, look yet look at what I look like, you know, that kind of thing. But for me, it was more through, I guess, being a theatre kid, musical theatre along with the emergence of post hardcore and emo music, you know, as I was emerging into, into my own person.

19:06 I think those two kind of came together for me and that's really developed my love of of language and metaphor. Because like for me, listen to most songs in like the charts, that's poetry that's been picked up on a level where people will love music, right? And that, and if you look into lyrics, it's pretty much the most beautiful poetry you'll ever read. But then when you talk about poetry and you put it into the sense of a book or on stage or people like, I'm not sure about that. It's like, but you're listening to it when you're walking to work, but then you walk past a shop that has all this poetry in it, but you're like, no, I'm good. But you're like, but you're listening to it. It's all around you because it's like Louis Capaldi, an amazing poet, like Harry Styles, like if you listen, if you listen and read their lyrics, it's like the weekend.

19:50 It's it's all poetry, but it's like on the highest stage because it's it's going through different Spotify's or whatever it is and it and it's music and it's popular and it's all this stuff. That's what I'd say. Music is popular poetry and ironically, poetry, which is the purest form of poetry, just gets bad press. People are like, no, no, no, I'm all right with those books. No, I'm good, I'm good. You're like what? I think it's just. And your. Flavour, you know, and, and you know, in my work they were playing some Sabrina Carpenter today. Now love, I hate her music. She loves word play, she loves innuendo. She's she's operating in that space all the time, you know, and, and that's that's her flavour compared to, you know, everything else that you've you've raised there. That's right.

20:31 It was just just something. What you said about music though, like musical theatre and things like that, when I was doing the album with Tomasz Almeida for Strong Enough To Break the fact that he came on board and created this kind of cinematic score. I always call him the Portuguese hand Zimmer because he's ridiculously talented. But for some reason, when we came together, the the words, the spoken words and his music works so well in tandem that it's just, I'm so proud of that project. And it never would have existed if it wasn't for Tomasz taking a punt on me and go, yeah, OK, I've, I've got a few months that I'll work on this project with you. And he gave up so much of his time and talent to create it.

21:14 And I, I'm really, I'm actually really proud of that album. It's 8 interconnecting tracks. So we said, can we make like a like a movie, but just for your ears? And it's got this kind of immersive feel to it. So it takes you on such a journey. And. Yeah, he's he's incredibly talented. I'm so glad he came on came on board a movie for your. Ears I I love that sounds like you know Tom Ash found his his muse well you found your muse sounds like a a beautiful partnership it really was well because. The funny thing was, I think he thought as a freaky stalker at first because I listened to his music on art List and I was like, this guy's ridiculously talented. And then I heard this one track and then I went on to his website and he says I'm a man of few words. And then I thought, what if I was your words? Which sounds so arrogant.

22:02 And I was like thinking, he's going to think I'm some weirdo. And then even more than that, I was a weirdo because I added my poetry to one of his tracks and then sent it to him. And I thought, this is going to absolutely bomb. He's going to think, who is this narcissistic unsolicited. Demo the ultimate. Yeah, I was like, look, this. Is us. It's almost like a manifesting. This Is Us working together, but I forced it right and I sent it to him. I didn't hear anything back for like a week a couple of weeks. I thought, Oh no, I've absolutely. And I like getting the anxiety sweats. And then I think a couple of weeks later he messages me and goes, dude, I just want to say like, that piece is next level now. You've just absolutely elevated it because I, I didn't feel confident enough to sing or, but not that he needs it because his work is so good just as instrumentals anyway, because he brings all the emotion with all the different instruments and the kind of caddick rhythms and, and everything he does.

22:52 But he just said, listen. And then I said, would you like to collaborate? Because I've got a few pieces I'd love to get out there. And he's like, dude, that sounds amazing. And I was like, I, I still, it's still a slap me kind of wake up moment that that that exists, that that album is out there. And I got to work with him because he is so talented. It's, it's, it's insane. It's absolutely insane. And what I love about that, Drew. Is it shows that you've got to ask, like that's something that I've learnt through what I'm doing here. Like you've got to ask and you've got to be a bit cringe because some people will will say yes, like you just you just don't know. It's a cliche for a reason, I guess. Yeah. But also like saying collaborating, like even this for me, this is beautiful. Like you reaching out and I'm like, yeah, I'd love to.

23:33 It was weird because I was trying to put out to the ether. I'd love to be on more podcasts and talk about poetry and talk about my work or what I'm trying to do with my work or and you know, communicate and collab with other other artists, like minded people yourself, you know, and here we are. Here we are inside that inside that bubble. Just quickly. You know, having worked with Larian Studios on Divinity original SIM two, what happened? Could they not afford you for the follow up Boulders Gate 3? Could they not fit you on the on the sheet? Oh dude, don't. Man, it hurts. I don't know, man. I, I, I'd love to, I mean, the reason I was lucky enough to get augmented Empire was because I could do different voices. So I, I, I played a few different characters in that. So I guess they get more bang for their buck rather than having to pay three different actors. They could just get me in and I'll play these different characters.

24:23 But yeah, I'm mate, Divinity Original Sin 2 was a proper kind of like, again, a kind of slap myself in the face, wake up moment. Like you're like pinch me moment. Sorry, that's slap me in the face, pinch me moment. You can slap me in the face if you want. But yeah, that game was insane. And you actually get to do like death scenes. You do different things. So like if your character gets stabbed or poisoned, yeah, you have to do different versions of that, which is a lot of fun. But the script was amazing. Like I, I actually think that as amazing as, as, as film is and cinema is getting better and like 2025 was incredible. And this year, like we've got some insane films coming out, which I'm really, really excited about. But I do think that the medium of computer games, like the whole kind of Resident Evil requiem #9 like the storytelling and the immersive quality that you go through as a player is just next level. And, and the acting from those voice, the people that voice all those different characters is just, I mean, they, they could get Oscars.

25:20 Like, do you know what I mean? Nominations, like the performances they give, they give so much to the mic in those studios that people get to experience when they're playing the game. It just adds such another level to it because people are really, they're giving it everything and and you and you can see that in the studio when you're there doing your scenes or you're reading opposite someone or whatever it is. And yeah, there's a lot of love and passion for computer games, and it's lovely to see it that people aren't just phoning it in. It's like they're really, it is like they're doing a monologue or they're acting. Performance capture has. Come so far. I thoroughly enjoyed playing through Clare Obscure Expedition 33 over the offseason. It was actually really helpful helping me work through some some grief and some feelings that I had and, and I, I, I reckon I reckon that's in your future made in terms of maybe a sequel there because you know, Charlie Cox and Jennifer English and Ben Starr and these these real like rising stars of voice acting like it's, it's all happening.

26:17 And this was from a small French offshoot studio and they just embarrassed the whole, the whole industry incredible. Well, it's it's like. Have you seen now with the motion capture, they're actually putting like well known faces because there's I think there's a computer game with Kit Harington's face on it. I'm not sure what that one is. There's the one from the guy that plays Daryl from The Walking Dead. Well, I can't remember his name. Amazing actor. But yeah. And they're starting to put the faces of the the actors on there. So not only do they have the tennis balls and they're doing all the moves and stuff, but they're actually now getting well, Like they, they, what was it? Cyberpunk with Keanu Reeves and stuff, man. So it's like they're, they're kind of, but the line is getting blurred between movie and game and, and, and I'm, I'm here for it, man.

27:03 I think it's, it's so exciting. And like you said, I think it helps people for a lot of things. Like my my friend at work, he was saying sometimes coming home and just turning on my computer. It just it's a wonderful escape. It allows me to see another world. I can experience things. I'm still socializing in a weird way because when your character, you are your character communicating with other people, you still have a little element of social. Or if it's multiplayer and you've got your headphones in, you can talk to other people. And that got me through lockdown as well. Like one of my best mates, Adam, we were, we were playing Fortnite and literally we're just talking about what's going on in the news and like playing the game and we're communicating through a computer game. And that's when when people saying, oh, computer games are really bad for people because they're just like isolating people and blah, blah.

27:49 I was like, no, it was actually bridging the gap. It was helping people when you couldn't leave your home, you could talk to other people in your lives and see how they're doing and, and almost have a bit of a heart to heart. Like it was always therapy through computer games. So it was, it was beautiful, man. It's really going. Up in production value. Norman Reedus getting involved. You know, Fillmore tours like Williamo del Toro and Nicholas Wendy Grefna are doing things like this. We've got we've got Lenny Kravitz as the villain in the new Bond game soon. We've we've got Jordan Peele starting to executive produce some projects with. It's not Miyazaki. Why am I think it's Hideo Kojima. Hideo Kojima, right right. Yeah.

28:30 So these real altars starting to to go in that in that direction. I think therefore our slam is brought to you by the Slam Fam on Patreon. Yes, these are the generous, beautiful, creative souls who help keep the lights on here at podcast HQ. And for less than the price of a coffee a month, they get access to all types of exclusive goodies, including bonus episodes, previews of upcoming content, new poems and musings from me, and much more. To become a member, you can head on over to patreon.com/I TTIS or click the link in the description. Now back to the conversation. I love a good nerd out, Andrew, but let's quickly return to poetry for a little bit.

29:15 Sure, man, you. Certainly have a. Passion. And you write very candidly about themes, mental health, suicide awareness, these kind of things. When you're writing about these things, how do you protect your own well-being while you're putting that material together? And do you feel any kind of, I guess, responsibility or, or how do you navigate helping readers, you know, inviting them into a story and trying to help them without triggering things? I suppose that's a really good. Question. Yeah, a very important one. I think this thing about trigger is, is a really tricky one because sometimes maybe you need to hear the piece to heal from the peace. And I think sometimes we're so quick to be triggered or put off by the word trigger that we might miss out on actual important things.

30:05 But again, it depends, I guess, on the topic and, and how recent it is or how deep that trauma is that someone's particularly going through it. Did she say that? Because with the latest book, my editor, an incredible artist, Arzu, she said that you should write at the beginning that it has. It has like a warning. OK. Yeah. Like. A like a little disclaimer. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And, and it was only because when she was reading it through, she was like, listen, some of these pieces are really they're really hard hitting. And and they're, you know, she got me to write that. It says, I really. It just says some poems in this collection use strong language. Yeah. And touch on themes of suicide.

30:45 These subjects are approached honestly and may be difficult for some readers. And I think unfortunately, suicide effects a lot of people because when we lose someone through that particular circumstance, yeah, it it has a knock on effect of all the people that left behind confused by how that happened or why that happened or we think why, why couldn't they open up and tell us? And I've lost a lot of people to suicide, sadly. And that is partly the catalyst for why I do what I do, to try and figure out what, what was going through their minds and why did they feel that that was the only solution to the difficulties they were facing. That's why I talk about the, the, the darkness in the sense that darkness feels too heavy to hold. There's this overwhelming burden and people like, I'd rather not offload this on anyone.

31:41 I I'm going to just take it with me and maybe I'm not going to see tomorrow, you know, and, and, but to be the polar of that, my thoughts were if one person could read a piece in my book and they were in a really dark place and they're like, do you know what? This is relatable? Like they've, they've gone through some dark things themselves, but they've seen it to the other side. They make a different choice and go, do you know what I'm going to, I'm going to get through this. Somebody said something really interesting when they read some of my work. They said that you're meeting people in their darkness and that's the only way to pull them out. It's like that, that film Soul, that Pixar film where they go into that dark space and he has to find her in, he has to meet her in that dark space and pull her out. Because as amazing as light poetry and loving poetry and beautiful transient poetry is, people might not be ready. They can't get to that level yet because they're they're in their little dark kind of place and I try to meet them there and go listen, I know what it's like to be here. Let's go.

32:47 Let's get out together. You know, I always try to say that my book, if my book could be a friend in the dark to help guide people through a certain labyrinth. Not that I'm saying I have all the answers or that my work is going to heal or, or, or change any lives, but if it can touch people in a certain way. I remember there was a time when someone reached out to me and said, I'm going to buy your book because I've got a couple of really difficult weeks coming up and I was just blown away by how they thought something that I've created might help them through something difficult. I was like, Oh my God, like words couldn't express. I was like, I hope you get through it. And if if any of the things you're reading help with that, then that's that's the greatest gift for a writer.

33:33 Really. Thank you. So. Much for for sharing that Drew. I had a few thoughts. Firstly, trigger warnings are interesting because my rudimentary understanding and my take, if you like, is I think the jury is a little bit out as in I'm not sure if they're effective. If that's the way, like it's fair enough that your editor, you know, asked you to make a change to, to, to kind of make things more palatable or more appropriate. I mean, there is there is certainly something to be said. We have a ratings board for for films and stuff. Like there is something to be said for allowing people to to give consent to be exposed to certain things. But yeah, it's an interesting. It's an interesting argument either way. I think I'm also fascinated by the potential of art as a circuit breaker because I think a mental circuit breaker that is, you know, something that can change someone's train of thinking or, or believing or experiencing on a on a dime, if you like.

34:32 I mean, I can think of going to comedy shows. I, I went and saw a comedy show with a friend during one of the worst two weeks of my life and it didn't change everything immediately, but my goodness, it was helpful. My goodness, it was helpful. And I'm so glad I went. Do you know what I mean? So it's wonderful that other people are seeing that in your work and telling you. Like, I'm so glad people are telling the artists who are making the work that is meaningful to them that it is meaningful because so often it just goes unsaid. Yeah. I. Think that's also one of the difficulties with social media because of this whole comments box or likes box that we get so used to grading or being graded and sometimes the people that are touched the most might not even interact with that.

35:20 I I think you don't realise the seeds you sow into certain people now that's the beauty of it. But like you said, if someones kind enough to reach out and say, listen, I just want to let you know this made me feel this or like literally today, a poet DM D me, which is lovely. She said, I'm I'm almost finished my book and I want to let you know that I bought a couple of yours and your work has inspired me to complete my book. And I was just like, whoa. So again, going going full circle to lock down me sat on a spike rug. I was like, you should thank the spike rug because that's what opened my brain. So the idea that we can inspire each other is, is, is beautiful. And I remember I, I I'm constantly inspired when I dip in into social media every now and then and somebody writes something that's incredibly brave or courageous. And I'm like, I'd like to try and tackle that topic as well. And like, we're kind of inspiring each other collaboratively as a kind of tribe in a weird way. You know, you say your vibe attracts your tribe. Yeah.

36:16 Yeah. I think that's, I think that's beautiful. So much love for the. Shakti Mat here today. The spike mat. Yeah, man. This episode is sponsored by The Shakti Mat and Better Help and. And all the good things. Yeah, yeah, all the good things. All the good things. If we look at this from the opposite side, though, do you think sometimes we, we, we hear about, you know, toxic positivity or the fact that people are already, you know, there seems to be a social expectation that there is, there is a certain amount of time that you can spend in a certain state. And then the expectation is that you move on, that you're over something, that you're, you're back on task, etcetera, etcetera. And that's not always the case. What would you say to someone who feels that they're trauma, their experience is too messy or too much or too ugly to ever be turned into art?

37:01 What would you say to someone like that? I mean, that's a great. Question. It's weird that the the first image I have is a strange one actually, because a friend of mine a while back, he was seeing a counsellor and they told him he was indulgent in his like concerns or or or worries, which I thought was a strange thing to say anyway. But what he said was he said, I want you to go outside to where all the bins are like horrendous stinking bins. And he says stay there with all your all your thoughts and all your problems and all your concerns and the ones that are really playing on your mind and stay there with those as long as you can until you need to leave.

37:41 And it's the idea of, I think it was because the bin smell is too much to deal with. You can't indulge in those problems for too long that it gives you the ability to get back into your life. But from, from a, from a creative point, here's what I'd say. You don't have to share your creative pursuits through one's trauma. You can write things that can help you. And it could just be in a book and it can just go somewhere. I think in the world we're in now, because of social media, we feel a need to prove that we're doing something to help better ourselves and then we'll post it rather than just doing internal work on ourselves and go, do you know what? I'm going to write this for me.

38:27 And also it's that kind of like 10,000 hours thing. Like I think loads of stuff I've written I'm I'm really not happy with. But if you imagine that your mind is like a a pipe, like a tunnel, you've got to get rid of all of the other crap bits that it, like all that other stuff has to come out before the nice flowing water can come out, before the things that you are happy with can kind of come to fruition. And I think the more you do something, the more confident you you become. I don't write poetry on with pen and paper. So I feel like an absolute kind of, which sounds kind of sacrilege. I write in my notes, so I'll just be somewhere and I'll just start jotting stuff down in my notes and, or it might be a word or a thought and I'll return to it and I'll, I'll use it almost like a jigsaw.

39:13 I'll pull pieces out and build something that will then start to kind of make sense later down the line. And that's the other thing it can take, it can take time. You don't want to rush things. It's like go at your speed. Do you know what I mean? And if it's something particularly painful that you feel you can't work on, maybe you've got a friend or a family member or someone that they're going through something that's not completely connected to you. You could write on their thoughts and their problem. Because that's the other thing I found, that other things going on in the world, we poets can write about. It might not necessarily be our concerns or our difficulties or our traumas or our problems, because the world is going through so much and we're all part of that world, even though media and everything tries to create.

40:00 Divides and everything we are a collective and we're one species so we can relate to human suffering and hopefully change that and and see if we can, you know, help each other through it. We have so. Much empathy. Do you know what I mean? Like stick, stick Google eyes on a rock and you'll be challenged to not have feelings for that rock. That's all I'm saying. This is our greatest collaborative power us up, you know, because we have empathy. We are vulnerable to advertising, you know, this kind of thing. We're we're we're vulnerable to, to bad actors and manipulation and, and things like this.

40:40 So it's, it's constantly running both ways and it's, it's something that we need to to train. And I suppose like you were saying, like a, a writer doesn't have to share everything about themselves, but they can dictate their own boundaries and their own reasons for not sharing something. The reason might not necessarily be, oh, I think this is too messy or ugly. It might just be like, oh, I don't write about my children or something. That's just a boundary. It's not, there's nothing else attached to it. You know what I mean? So that kind of takes, takes the charge out of it. And I think that's really important. I think boundaries are. Are are so like for health and for one's own health and and mental health and well-being. I think boundaries are so important to set and and comfort levels in a sense, even though we talk about break out your comfort levels to grow and stuff like that, but at the same time you need to set boundaries in place that help you feel comfortable.

41:34 I saw this play out in the music world. A few years ago when Paramore stopped playing their song Misery Business, they said we're actually going to stop playing this song because the lead singer, Hayley Williams, she felt it was misogynist and it wasn't reflective of her current kind of views and outlooks. And it was put aside for a time. It's a fan favorite, but it was put aside. It is back now. They obviously went through a season where they weren't comfortable. And then they came out the other side going, oh, we're we're gonna reclaim it as a, as I guess, a relic from something that was written when, when they were much younger but accepted it. So, you know, we see these kind of different, different boundaries, you know, coming up in, in all kinds of contexts. But that's like my my mate was saying briefly about. The movies, like we're saying, if you look at movies from different decades ago, it is very different. And you can start to see how the world is changing through the movies.

42:27 Do you know what I mean? And I think that's quite fascinating. But like my friend was saying, you shouldn't go back and redo things just to make it the way it is now, because that's a piece of history and that was the way that things were. So yeah, generally speaking, I'm not a fan of. Retconning content. I'm a fan of education. I'm a fan of of the disclaimer of saying Disney Corporation saying, oh, here's the original Dumbo. There are some African American caricature characters in this film. Just be aware of that. Be aware that the these are these are some some very old, very offensive stereotypes.

43:07 It was done. We're not going to take it out. We're going to let people know it's there and we're going to learn from it. You know, I think that that's probably the way we go, and that's exactly what I mean. We need, we can, we can learn from the mistakes of the past rather than trying to clean them up and go, that never happened. It's like, well, no, no, no, no, no. Because then we're lying to ourselves because it's like it did happen. And how can we make sure it doesn't happen in the future and use that empathy again? Because. The, the cringe or the, the thing in your stomach that you get when you see that or you read the history book or whatever that means something that, that that means that we, we don't want to go there again. And I think that's that's 100% that creates that kind of. Poignancy to it. You know for sure I'm I'm loving this. Drew, this is fantastic.

43:52 I'd love to hear your your second piece as well. So this one is called. Madness. This madness leads to madness. Starved of our tears to the point of stress, but no space for sadness so our minds and bodies become a sad mess. Trap thoughts fester in the prison of our own loneliness. Less of ourselves as we cut and paste a brave face, A pillar without cracks as we do our best. But our hearts and minds are under attack as our lungs desperately search for space. Can't live up to the mold that was sold to man. Lacking tears as we fear we confuse society's plan. Not all men stood when it came to the right thing to do.

44:35 Some ran history books and wars were fought by real men. You can't have an off day when you're male. You got to stay 10 out of 10. Mines crack like glass every now and then, but not for men. We've got red marks from the masks we wear in society, crowds as our tears are exiled and not allowed. Crowns are placed upon kings and there's a weight that that brings men that silence their pain. Here for too long now, have sadly grown wings, vulnerability cast out like a disease. Yet the pain remains in most men, hidden in dark rooms, heavy thoughts that bring them to their knees. Ask yourself why men don't talk openly, they bury their feelings like serial killers hide bodies in amongst the trees.

45:19 Yes, we need brave men in this world, but there must also be acceptance for their vulnerabilities. Beautiful, Drew. I think I'd like to take this chance to just highlight and direct people, if they're interested towards their nearest kind of men shed or men's circle. I'm part of a men's circle run by a friend of mine who got some training and, and runs one every month. And it's, it's so simple. We, we often don't have an agenda when we sit down, but my goodness, it's just helpful. It's even helpful the fact that, you know, we know each other from the circle, but you know, we keep that space it's own thing. And then we kind of go out to our lives from there.

46:00 Like we're not, we're not enmeshed in it, is what I'm trying to say. It's it's that neutral third space. Yeah. Have you you ever had any experiences in those kind of spaces? I haven't, but I know they exist. I've met a few people from them, one of the guys that runs part of the the shed company, which I think is incredible. Men working on different projects and kind of arm in arm because people don't, men don't always necessarily want to be in front of each other because then it feels a bit strange. He, he did. He, he purchased one of my, my first books because I, I had AI heard a hoodie on that says boys cry too. And it's the sorry boys get sad too, which is that incredible kind of organization that for every hoodie or T-shirt or merchandise that's sold, it goes towards men's kind of mental health charities and things like that.

46:48 And he's trying to kind of break the stigma on men's mental health. And he saw the hoodie that I had. And that's again, the thing that I think is amazing about that particular brand, because when somebody sees that kind of hoodie on someone, they go, hey, man, I'm there for it. And it's like this, it's not the secret code, but like when people see that hoodie, it goes, this is a guy that gets it. This is a person that gets it. Or it doesn't even have to be a guy. A woman could be wearing it like boys. The boys get sad too and even love. The fact is, boys, the idea of we're vulnerable sometimes, even though we're, we're, we're men in society and we're of a certain age, but there's still that kind of boys mindset because we haven't fully found ourselves or sometimes a situation can make us feel lost or we can feel vulnerable through an emotional situation that we don't know how to unpack. And I think having groups like that is a way to just, you know, be amongst other men and potentially be vulnerable in in each other's company or just having a space where you can kind of be yourself and, and not have to kind of put up filters and and walls and barriers.

47:58 Yeah, for sure. And and like you said, even. Clothing can be another form of expression and art. People see these decals or these sayings or, you know, to write love on their arms. You know, that's another great organization. And it can open a door. You know, it can open the door, it can open a conversation. It can be that circuit breaker. Again, we're surrounded by all kinds of expressions and emotional circuit Breakers. We just got to seek them out, I suppose. Drew, I want to know, 'cause you're now a veteran, if you like, of two poetry collections. What? Changed for you? Between writing the first and the second collections in terms of, I don't know your approach or your style or even how you curate what gets in and and what gets left on the cutting room floor, so to speak, I think the first one. Was I kind of wanted to have something to share through that really difficult time in life that we'd all gone through in the kind of zeitgeist of pandemic and and everything like that.

49:02 And I think that was a real personal one. I think a lot of the stuff I put put in there and then I think this new one is just to prove that the first one wasn't a flick. But yeah, the the the the. New one is more. Political for sure. It's the most political I've been. Well, you, you proved just trying to open a pace. Yeah. From there, Yeah, No, thank you, man. Yeah, and. Well, I mean, even the title itself that, you know, has, has rung a lot, you know, to a lot of people, they, they, they've really kind of appreciate the title drunk on lies, sober on truth. And I think that shows where we're at at the moment, unfortunately, that we're so quick to just digest lies and we'll just deal with that because that's easier because the truth can be really hard to, to unpack. And I put again, I, I always go into men's mental health and, and suicide awareness.

49:53 These, these are my, my go TOS because these are things I want to break down and I want to break the stigmas on those. But I also, like you said, I want to start conversations about that, the idea of, of men being poets and expressing their feelings. And I think everyone should be able to do that. I always say, if, if men didn't have tear ducts, like why do we have tear ducts? If we're, if we're not supposed to feel or cry, you know, it's it's strange change that we pent up all this kind of emotion and things or just don't know where to put it. We don't know where to put it in things. And I think sometimes because the emotion can either get so lost, maybe it can turn into something else, something dark, something negative. And that's where I think we can change circumstances on behaviour of certain men in society if they know where to put their emotions and those feelings that are so kind of entangled.

50:48 Funny enough, when I was writing different bits, like newer things from my notes, they'd go into the book because I was like, oh, this actually feels quite, quite relevant now. I'll, I'll put this in. I mean, this book would not exist if it wasn't for the incredible Arzu. She is absolutely incredible Arzu Dennis. And people can find her on on Instagram. She runs this amazing procentrix is this magazine that she runs and she she brings in all these different artists, photographers, animations, writers, like she brings a whole host of artists all together through this incredibly edited magazine. I'll need to send you some links, man. But but she's a she's such a talented artist. I reached out to her and said, would you do the artwork for me? And then we we worked on the front cover together and this idea of of the scales are off balance because literally it feels like that the way the world is. And then I started talking about if the class, if people are lower, this is the only way weights work. So you've got the class divide.

51:55 So then these people can stay up here in the rarefied atmosphere, living it up, whereas all these people have to stay here because otherwise it can't. They don't want it to do that, you know. And she kindly said, well, do you know what? I'll edit it as well. So she started a whole process now where she does the artwork, the editing, pulling it all together. So people out there that are listening to this and they want to get a book made, I definitely say reach out to her because she's she's wonderful. She was very patient. I was probably a very difficult customer, but yeah, she was, she was absolutely fantastic. And that is the reason I have a physical book because I tried to do an Indiegogo for this. And it doesn't help that, you know, there's, there's wars and all kinds of horrendous things going on in the world.

52:38 And who am I to ask for money off people when there's much more important things that need people's money and people's generosity and people's kindness. And there's me saying, can you help me make a book, please? It's like, it's not, it's not a good time. So it didn't work out, but it, but it allowed me to go. Do you know what? I really want this book to be out there. And I don't want it to be like a, a failed thing. I'm like, I'm going to just kind of get this up a hill. And yeah, ours who helped me kind of get it up to the top of the mountain. And I couldn't be happy with how it came out. Like I always wanted a book with a spine and it actually legitimately has a spine to and I always just wanted to make it not feel like some kind of piece of like like a kind of student thrown together homework. It's like I want it to feel like it could be on the shelf of any decent bookshop.

53:28 If you hit someone with it, it'll make an. Impact. That's that's what exactly? Yeah, yeah, quite literally, yeah. Yeah, it's not going. To just dissipate or fall into pieces. It's got some weight to it. It's got. Some weight to it. I'm really happy. It's the book I always wanted to make as well. To be honest. A lot of the pieces in there I'm I'm incredibly happy with. And it's different to my first one in the sense that I wanted to try and use more prose because I did a lot of rhyming stuff. And, and as much as I love rhyme, again, RK Gandhi does a lot of kind of prose and rhymes. And then I just wanted to kind of try different avenues and different strokes with my pen, as it were. And also RK Gandhi features in in this book. And I'm very grateful for our collaboration on a piece called Tuck and Roll. It's it's, it's got a collaborative element to it. Hey, quick pep talk if you're enjoying. The episode, I'd love it if you could leave a rating review, comment or like wherever you're listening right now. You know how this works.

54:24 Every little bit of digital interaction helps people to find the show and keeps the poetry flowing. And if you want to do something extra special, please share the episode with someone who you think will vibe with it. That also helps with all of the above. Thanks so much for listening. And now back to our guest. I'd love to have another little geek out. With you, before we finish up, Drew, I want to know about your experiences in the podcasting world. So rage whale is a thing. It's happening, it's kicking. And what is so interesting about it to me is it is it is a multi host podcast. It's not, it's not just your baby. Got a couple of guys on there now. I have done a collaborative podcast before, before I did this one and it was great, great experience. But it is very different because you got all these different kind of creative energies in the one room. So how do you and your team keep it fresh and keep it functional like without killing each other with, with what you're trying to do, I mean.

55:24 I'm so grateful to be part of Rage Whale, to work with Kevin James and to, to be honest, I, I, you know what I'd actually say it's, it's the guests we have that keep it fresh. We're very lucky that we have guests from all over the world and when they're sharing their stories and we kind of all just like dip in with ideas. But it's such a safe space. Like it's, it's, it's lovely. Like a lot of guests have said that they feel very comfortable. It's very conversational, even though it's, it's like an interview, but it's like having an interview at a pub or something, if that makes sense. Like a digital pub where you just kick, sit back and go, Oh yeah. What about this? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then everyone pitches in with their ideas. But to be honest, like you were saying about having a shed, I'd say that rage whale is my man shed in a way, because I get to hang out with some very good friends of mine that I haven't seen for many, many years.

56:13 And that's kind of my way of socialising because I don't have an awful lot of friends here in Hove, Like a lot of my friends are in like Hampshire and London and places like that. And I obviously try and reach out and meet them throughout the year. But rage whale is something that's, you know, it's, it's almost every Monday, every other Monday or Tuesday we're, we're recording. And I love it. I, I, I love talking, as you can tell, I love talking about things that I love more. So like with the, you know, movie, I'm a massive movie geek and like delving into it with guests and talking about how they see certain things. Or we talk about a scene or the way it's shot or the dialogue or the character or the music.

57:01 Like there's so many different aspects to, to, to film that I absolutely love. And it was funny because a while back I was saying to a couple of friends in Hampshire, I was like, we should start a podcast about movies. And unfortunately just became, it was just a talking topic. And ironically, we never press record it never became anything. And then my, my mate Kev, he started buying all this equipment. He's like, dude, I'm thinking of doing a podcast about movies. I was like, no ways, man. This is like, I manifested it. I was like, wait, are you, are you contacting me to say you want me to be part of it or like, what's going on? And he's like, oh, you're a voice over wrist. You've got a mic and stuff. I was like, yeah, man, we could do it. And then, yeah, one thing led to another. And then originally before we turn it into something, it was just, we were just having like Zoom calls and catching up for hours and just having the like so much fun and a laugh.

57:45 And we're like, imagine we shared this as like a weird like digital house party that people are, people can be invited to and they can just listen to it anytime they want just to dip in. And then we're like, why don't we open it up to like guests? And then they can come into this weird digital house. And that's kind of how it started to happen. And then we started to share it. And then people are like, oh, you know, there's a real vibe. This is so different to other kind of podcast things because obviously the the world is saturated with podcasts. So you like, how do you make it unique? And I think people just like the fact that it's kind of unfiltered. There's obviously swear words, ridiculous things we discuss, but then it's also got a lot of humour. There's a lot of heart as well because we, we've dealt with certain topics to do with like mental health and things like that.

58:26 And every episode has got its own kind of energy and its own kind of feel and the kind of guests kind of guide it in a way. And we just let we give them a platform and we just kind of interact with them. But it's, it's really fun. Now we've got like merchandise, we're going to be meeting up in London. Like we've got our own little hoodies and stuff. It's mad. Like my, my brother helped me create the music for it. So we've got our own little kind of theme tune and it's, it's just mad how, how it's evolved from three guys just, you know, zooming each other to a kind of fully fledged kind of podcast that people want to be part of. So it's, it's, it's lovely man. And, and I think, oh, sorry.

59:10 And I think having three people is great because if one of us is having a bit of a down day or we're not as energetic, somebody else can kind of carry the baton for us. So we can really help each other out as a team. Yeah, man. And you've heard about my podcast. Name. Where does rage whale come from? Sorry for my ignorance. No dude, it's great. It's definitely not. Ignorant at all because the reason I signed on to it, I say signed on like just jumped in. I was like, this sounds awesome. The name I was like, I've never heard anything like that and it's almost got no no connection to movies whatsoever, which I love. It's just like angry whales. But where it comes from. Is it Kevin James were I think it was Glastonbury or somewhere and it Rage Against the Machine was playing and they were on a blow up whale like like like a whale bed thing and they were getting carried across the audience and they used the rage part of Rage Against the Machine. And the whale because of the blow up thing they were on where they almost like fell to their death when the when the crowd went and then they like fell through. So they're like, yeah, rage whale. And I was like, I just love it because it's so catchy. It's so different and it's not it's not boxed into its own thing.

1:00:28 Do you know what I mean? It has a lot of options to that name. I love how you said that like your. Podcast is kind of like your men shared or your men circle, because it has definitely become a bit of a butt of a joke, a bit of a meme to say that like men get into their 30s and they either get really get into hunting or free climbing or making a podcast. I remember a former, you know, workplace of mine. They, they actually put up little, little cartoons in one of the call rooms and one, one of them was a, a little crude cartoon of a, a couple having sex. And the, the woman is like, say it again.

1:01:08 And the man says, I am, I have no desire to start a podcast. So it's become this meme of like, oh, that's so typical, whatever. But I would actually encourage you if there's a man in your life that wants to start a podcast, to just just let him do it. Let them do it. It's, it's, it's a lot of fun and it's, it's a really interesting art form. I find I just, I've been a podcast nerd long before I, I put myself behind the mic and yeah, I just love it. I'm sure you feel similar. Oh, dude. Well, yeah, it's. Like you said, it's an it's an outlet, right? And I think men, men aren't as good as women at meeting up. Like women are like, oh, I'm meeting, you know, Stacey on Wednesday and da, da da.

1:01:50 And we're doing all our things and they've got all these things planned and prepared. Men are just like, yeah, we might meet up. Nah, I'm not going to do it. You're like, what? And then it's like having that ability to talk to people like we're doing now is that is our social way. And yeah, it, it gives me that kind of interaction. And I feel like I am hanging out with friends because they are my friends and I'm, I'm very lucky for it. And that that's something I look forward to in my, in my month, you know, those little kind of moments of interacting with the guys and, and, and the guests. But dude, I'm so glad that you, you found your way into podcasts through your passion, because we're grateful to have you and your awesome voice and what you're doing with.

1:02:31 I think therefore I slam and creating a platform for poets like you're getting poetry out there. And I think that's the other thing. One of my missions is to get poetry beyond poets because I want normal people to appreciate poetry and I and I think there's so much benefit to it. If people could just get past that strange feeling of going, I just read a poetry book and like feeling dirty about it. Do you know what I mean? It's, it's such a weird thing. It's like, and I feel like that is happening though, because more and more there's millions of poets now like, and everyone's out there just speaking their truth and, and I think it's, it's, it's beautiful, man. And people are trying to elevate each other and create platforms for it and get it out there.

1:03:14 So there there is a need. It was even on, I think. Is it Johnny? Johnny Green is on Britain's Got Talent. Spoken word poetry, man. Yeah, it's out there. Yeah, absolutely. We had, we had Brandon Leake. Who? Won America's Got Talent in 2020 with slam as well. Had a great chat with him last season. So and I think there you go. That's what I mean. I think maybe podcasting is, is has so much potential to bring it out there because podcasting is, is quite personable. You know, no one, no one can tell what you're listening to with your noise cancelling whatever. They're not, they're not looking at, at, you know, the book and and whatever and being like, oh, what's what's up with them? You know you're hiding it behind another book like you're reading. Poetry. But there's actually a book. It's like a cookery book.

1:03:55 And they're like, oh, it's just looking at ingredients. And you're like, oh, it is poetry. Andrew, I wanna direct you. Towards the overarching creative analogy that we have for Season 3, and I want to ask you is if your creative work was a colour or a shade on the colour spectrum, what do you think it is and why? I think maybe orange. OK, because nothing rhymes with it. Is that why maybe? Maybe, I don't know, there's something about orange. Like I feel like it can be calming or kind of powerful maybe, or healing. I don't know. I'd like, I'd like to think that maybe my poetry could be one of those things. Like, I don't know.

1:04:40 I, I think it's interesting to have a colour as A and it's hard to pick just one colour as well, because hopefully as an artist you'd, you'd have a, a range of colours. What colour's your No, that's not fair. You can't turn that back. On me poetry. Joseph Editor. Take this out, OK? Look, I've always, I've always loved blue. I've always loved blue in all its shades. Blue eye blue, ocean blue, sky blue, electric blue, neon blue. I know what it means when people say they feel blue. One of my favorite songs it's it's called Deep Burn Blue.

1:05:22 You know, I was about to say electric indigo, but that's not quite blue. Yeah. So. So that's me. But I'm always interested because I'm trying to build this, this painting, this kind of this palette of, of, of different, different people's experiences. And orange reminds me of like. The sun like either coming up or going down and I think we incorporate a lot of nature through poetry and how we describe things. So for sure that's another element for the for the orange. Day ends. Day begins. New beginning. And it tastes good. It tastes good or if you put a little. Kind of if you put cloves in it, it it's great. You know, at Christmas time, that's lovely. That's yeah. Orange. More Northern. Hemisphere. Christmas. Than than Southern hemisphere, it's a bit a bit hot for for mulled wine and yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah put a put an orange on the.

1:06:07 Barbie. That's it. That's it. We now turn our attention to the segment shamelessly ripped off Diary of a CEO. It's called Diary of a POET. I'm sure all you people at the UK know Stephen. You can apologise to him for me. That's that's all good. So you've had a question left for you by my previous guest, Andrew Paris Rosemont wants to know what have you purposefully left out of your poetry and what does that omission seek to protect hot seat time? I think that's a very, very. It's a it's. A great question, great work. I think sometimes if I'm telling a story, because sometimes I've heard friends say something or I've heard stuff in the streets or people that I might know, and obviously, like they do in movies and go, the names have been removed to protect the people involved.

1:07:00 I'd say there's an element of that with some of the pieces that I've written. Yeah. Boundaries again, Exactly. And then sometimes I. Think I've, I've removed some of the real harsh realities because like a lot of the stuff going on in Gaza at the moment, I've wrote a piece in my book called Lost in the Normal. But it's more from our point of view rather than going into the graphic details of the horrendous things that are happening. Because I don't think we need to be reminded of that in the sense I know how horrendous it is And there's something, it seems, it seems wrong sometimes writing something from the point of people's lives are being taken and that shouldn't be turned into content.

1:07:47 That's that's just my opinion. But at the same time, I guess some people will write about those horrors of war to try and make it more poignant and more important and stick in the minds of people. But like you're saying about the idea of triggers, the idea of reading something graphic connected to those horrendous things happening. And, and, and it's almost hard to believe that it is, that it is happening in this world. And, and all we can do is just have conversations about it. But can our conversations change it? Can our conversations help heal those in need or change the circumstances? Yeah, they're very well said. Andrew Horner, just before we hear your your final closing piece for today, where can people go to follow you, find out more about you, get your books, follow all these, these new film projects that you're, you're, you're working on. Where's, where's the best spots for them to head? I mean, I, I, I just say check out. At Tales of the Nook or or Rageway as well, because. Because sometimes I do shameless plug plugging on there. No, the guys are really sweet.

1:08:52 Like sometimes they'll they'll promote certain things or projects that are happening. So people are interested in in wanting to know what's going on in in my sphere, as it were. Then that's that's a place you can check out in regards to the my books. I think if you just go into any kind of like URL or Google and just put Andrew Horner poetry, I think it'll probably bring up both of my books, My Life in Pieces and Drunk on Lies, Sober on Truth. There is actually an audio version that I recorded for Audible of my first book, which is lovely, that people can like they're walking their dog or, you know, they're in a car or something. They can listen to it in their ears as opposed to reading because don't read and drive because that's dangerous. But yeah, because some people don't always have time to read. And I and I, I get that.

1:09:38 So yeah, you can just hear me reciting the poetry kind of like what I was doing in in this episode, more of it. And yeah, I guess. If if there's any links to any. Films or anything, then I I'd probably put it through the the kind of tales of the Nook. You can watch that film that I mentioned Pola is on is on Amazon. I think it's on Prime now, if people are interested in that. By Dominic Jackson and Oh yeah, man, strong enough to break guys that yeah. Thomas Almeida, Creative tales, Spotify, Amazon, I think Apple Music. Yeah, Amazon Music. Like it's it's it's out there. Yeah. Brilliant. And we'll have links to all of that. In the episode description, a wealth of riches, a wealth of riches. This conversation has been it's been awesome. Dude, I'm I'm.

1:10:25 I'm. Extremely grateful. For you jumping on here today, would love to for you to play us out with your your final piece today. Well, mate, it's been an absolute pleasure, man. The pleasure is. All mine, but so thank you so much for the opportunity to be on here. My final piece is called My Reality, What's Real In my reality, my pain is pretty real as my mind makes that clear to me, but memories are mixed up in a thick fog as I'm losing all clarity. My pain is like paint you see that has been spilled across many stages of my life as I'm confused by the time it takes to make all those wrongs ripe. Memories of being fine feel like flickers in the flame. The theme tune to my life is the sound of constant pain.

1:11:06 My mind like a labyrinth lost in circles only to find myself once again. No cure or exit so I'm trapped with this constant pain. But if water was that healing touch then I'm that desert crying out for the rain. Hope to be fully me once again. Feels like I'm trapped in a psychological game that lasts for years instead of days. Where trauma and lack of self worth with ingredients to blame deep within. Hiding behind fake bone as I cry behind my skin, there's a rare kind of peace I crave that ceases to begin every single day. Wanting to kiss this pain away. It's just sadly becoming hearsay I felt. I feel it's in front of me sometimes, like it's on the cards, but the pessimistic side convinces me it's nothing more than a mirage.

1:11:54 Thinking back to when I was paying free is just way too fucking harsh. I feel like something has been stolen away. There was a high steep inside for the jewel of my life, the essence of my being, the reason for my living, where at times the fears turn my lungs into stone walls and try to stop me from breathing. This dizzy world I contend with as I try to breakthrough the ceiling, as the fragments of hope crumble away, I try to find a crumb to believe in. Broken frame but heart still pumping just the same. Or like a machine gun full of rage. A new body, like a second skin, a New Hope where I could escape in. But I've missed the old me as that's the original form I came in. A version of myself I so badly want to see. Looking for a raft as I drown in self pity in my dreams. I'm pain free.

1:12:41 Maybe that's why I'm addicted to sleep. People think I'm killing time, but that's better than killing me to live a kind of reality that makes me happy. But when my eyes open, I'm back to that pain and this complex city concrete kills the soul. My eyes wish to drink up nature's paintings, every colour in her palette. But I'm lost in a time capsule, forced to drink down paracetamol, numb the pain to try to calm the mental. But chronic pain is the hardest pill to swallow. If it's in my mind, how do I bring back what's mine? Or is it left in my past, something far behind? I pray for the day when I could walk in this world like I do in my dreams, pain free and this existence is real, not a fantastical fantasy as my life is handed back over to me, my balance, my strength, my reality, my reality.

1:13:36 Andrew Warner, it's it's been a pleasure you you've shown us so many incredible creative sides of of what you do. And yeah, just really grateful for your generosity of time today. Thank you so much for thinking with us and slamming with us today. Dude, thank you so much for having. Us on as a guest and and and reaching out man, I'm truly honoured and yeah, dude, you're awesome and all the best with this this amazing podcast you've got going on.