85. From Good to Great: The Key Steps to Crafting a Favorite Podcast Experience

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Yes, I had a strategy and framework to grow it through content marketing, which is, by the way, exactly what we created Captcho for. Yes, I had general idea of how I wanted to produce and edit it. And yes, I genuinely knew who I wanted to talk to and about what. But apart from that, I kind of just launched the podcast, and I've really been muddling along and working things out along the way, just like I'm sure you are too. And so you may notice that whenever I come across a strategy that I know will help me grow my podcast or my business, I do it.

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I implement it right alongside you. And today's episode is no different, because in today's episode, I'm going to break down what we learned about how to become your favorite show and what we are doing in implementing it. Yep. Watch out. We are going to create something that you're never going to want to stop listening to, hopefully.

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Yes. So if you're also looking to do the same for your audience to create a podcast they'll never want to stop listening to because you are absolutely their favorite podcast, then hang with me. That is exactly what I'm going to be diving into. My name is Deirdre Tshien, CEO and co founder of Capsho, the fastest way to repurpose and market your expert content. And this is the Grow My Podcast show.

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Hey, you gosh. Did you listen to last week's episode? I mean, come on now. I'm always blown away by the guests on this podcast. And last week was definitely no exception because Jay Acunzo from the creator kitchen brought up something that, as I mentioned in my intro, I had never really stopped to think about.

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I had never stopped to think about how I create something for my audience that they'll never want to stop listening to. How do I create your favorite show? And so in today's episode, I wanted to do it. I wanted to break Jay's framework down and work it all out alongside you. And to do that, I have my co founder and CEO, Bona Rai, with me once again.

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Hello. Good morning. This is going to be pretty cool. Pretty cool episode. Excited for this one.

00:02:25
I loved Jay's Framework. Yeah, it was pretty dense. So I'm glad that we found the time to break it down into its component parts and to actually think it through quite. We did our homework, we did the things. Now we're not at all I wouldn't call it the perfect landing spot, but it's a really good start, I think.

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And hopefully by us talking about how we're thinking about it. Then you can also start to think about how you're going to think about it, how you're going to be able to bring this to life for your own podcast. So with that have actually a really easy step one, I think we love starting easy. Just ease ourselves into it before breaking our brains. Yes.

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Okay. Well, actually before we get into the steps, I'd love to hear from you, Bonna. Why do you think it's important to create a favorite podcast? I feel like this is a really kind of a no, like a dur. But I really want to hear you put it into words because you're way more articulate than me.

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Is it a dur? Because I'm like, oh, that's a kind of a curly question. Maybe some of this will get edited out because I'm rambling. But no, I think that's the reframe, right? It's creating a favorite podcast versus trying.

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I think so many of us, especially if we're, I guess, interested in becoming a high performing individual, a high performing team, we're so focused on being the best, and then we get ourselves tied up in knots because the best is very subjective. And then we beat ourselves up about all of these different metrics and all of these different things that we think are important. But it's really, I think, such an interesting question to reframe it into. Okay, how do I become my most ideal audience's favorite? Where they do actually A, come back and listen regularly but tell other people just like them about it.

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It's kind of like just a really good target market reframe really well. It actually really takes the pressure off, doesn't it? Because and I'm super proud of we've got multiple Capsho vans who they've said since using Capsho, they've now hit the top 1% on listed notes. They've hit all of these metrics. That objectively does make it seem like they're the best, and I'm so proud of them.

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But also, I know that there are some others who don't hit that and maybe they never will because maybe their target audience is so small that they're just never going to be able to get to those lofty heights. But thinking about it this way where it's like, okay, let's remove the whole we're not going to be the best, but we're going to be the favorite for your ideal audience. It actually takes a lot of pressure off having to look at those quote unquote objective metrics that we would never be able to some of us will never be able to attain anyway. Yeah, and maybe we don't want to because that's not the aim of our podcast. That's the other thing too, to say because especially if you are using your podcast to grow your business, which is definitely what we're doing and most of our listeners are doing, it's really going, okay, it's less about it's nice to hit the top 1%.

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I don't even know where we're at with that. But really, it's like when you become your favorite, of course, you enroll them into the Capsho vision, and you get them to take action with Capsho, and that's more important to us. Those are the things. Right? So I think it just kind of takes the pressure off, gets you focusing on the right things, and then to your point, opens up, I think a level of creativity where we're like, oh, okay.

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These are our people who love listening to know the Jerry. Hi, Jerry. Jerry's of the world. Tony's of the world. To say, how do we create for them?

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And it becomes a more personal and enjoyable experience for us as well, I feel. Yeah, for sure. So if you are listening to this and you're like, I have no idea what you are talking about, Deirdre and Bonner, then this is your step one. Your step one is to go and listen or maybe even just relisten. I actually think it's very, very worth relistening to last week's episode.

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that is the episode that Jay Acunzo did with me. And once you listen to that things or relisten to it, because I had to, things will start to fall into place around okay. It was very dense. There's a lot that he goes into. We're going to help you through that, by the way, in this episode about how we break it down and how basically we broke it down ourselves.

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But relisting to that will just kind of, I think, highlight to you again why it's so different, why it's so important and different to reframe becoming your audience's favorite show, not the best. And it might sound counterintuitive because you might even feel a bit of resistance, because I certainly did. If there was a definition of overachiever, I think everyone who knows me knows that I am that definition. Your photos in the dictionary next to Deirdre Tshien, pronounced Deirdre Tshien. Yes.

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So it was hard for me to be like, what do you mean? What do you mean? Not don't strive for the best? I'm used to having to strive to be the best, but now it's so good because, as I said, it takes that pressure off. And now we can just focus on what's really important, which is how do we create an amazing show for you?

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So we'd definitely love to hear from you about whether you think that we're on the right track, because we're going to head into step two now, which is actually creating what Jay calls your audience resonance pyramid. I know. I love a framework, and I love pyramids. I love any shape. Really?

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Give me a framework in a shape. Yeah, it needs to be a shape. Yeah. Love it. All right, so you may know the traffic pyramid has four tiers.

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The audience residence pyramid also has four tiers. You know what we love four tiered pyramids on this show. We have a special affinity for them. For them, yeah. So if you yourself have a four tiered pyramid in your framework, is it a four tier pyramid?

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Email me, let me know. We'll shout you out. Oh, my God, that is such a great idea. It's a terrible idea. Okay.

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Anyway, we've got off track. All right, let's get into creating your audience resonance pyramid. So I'm going to just rattle off the four sort of tiers, and then we'll go into what each of those mean. So the first tier is what Jay calls relevance. The second tier is enjoyable.

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The third tier is impactful. And the fourth is it's just getting sexier as we go. Love it. We love a good so let's in our own words, because I know, again, go and listen to last week's episode, and Jay very clearly defines what each of these things mean, but I want us to put our own overlay on this, if that's cool. So, Bona, let's start with relevance.

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What does that mean to you? Yeah, so visually, on the pyramid, relevance really is the bottom foundational layer. Really, like all good pyramids, it's widest at the bottom. It's table stakes. Like this gets you into the game.

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And for us, the way that we think about it is fundamentally for this show, the show wouldn't be the show without the fact that we have guests, and obviously myself, too, but definitely us expert guests talking about strategies and tactics to grow your podcast. Because it's the Grow My Podcast show, but specifically for entrepreneurs. So we're not necessarily talking to people who are looking to maybe grow their show to get sponsorship and deals and things like that. Although that's a great path to follow. We were really specifically talking to podcasters who are growing a business with their podcast and using it for that.

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And it's really about bringing them marketing strategies and growth strategies that's going to help them do that really effectively. Yes, for sure. Although, and as an aside, because I just want to drop this, as you were saying that, I was like, oh, my gosh, a light bulb went off, and I want to do another episode on. Yes, you can use a podcast to grow your business, which is what we do and what we you listening to. This is a poorly doing, but the opportunities to create passive income through all the oh, my gosh.

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Anyway, because we're going to start doing the things too. So we'll share as we anyway. I did. Honey trap. There you go.

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You got to stick with us because A, this is your favorite show, but also, B, there's some really cool content coming your way that we're trying out ourselves. Me, myself, also, Don't, I'm also hooked on this now because I think I'm helping it co created with you. But I can't wait to learn more. I love finding out while we're recording, but yes, relevant. This is what happens.

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Yes, relevant. Okay, so think about, from your perspective, your show you created for a reason. You created for a particular person. When you thought about doing that, when you thought about creating it, what was the minimum thing you were like? If nothing else, this is what I'm going to provide my audience.

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If nothing else, we are going to provide strategies and tactics to help entrepreneurs with a business podcast grow their shows. That was us. What about you? If nothing else, you're going to help your audience do XYZ to learn how to meditate in the right way or get inspired to do XYZ. I don't know what that looks like for you, but that's the first tier of the pyramid is work out how your show is relevant to your audience.

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Okay, so it's tier number one. Tier number two is enjoyable. What does this mean to you? This is where it starts getting fun, I guess. So the point to note about relevance is it's widest because there are going to be a lot of other shows that are very similar.

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And this is where I think, from my perspective, you start to bring a bit of your own flavor to this. To say, okay, well, if I was going to help people achieve this outcome, in which in our cases, if I was to talk to other entrepreneurs who podcasts and help them grow their shows and deliver strategies and tips, how would I do it in a way that's enjoyable for me, but would make it enjoyable for them? I think that's the very simple human frame that I put on it. And definitely what we started doing on this show, and I can't remember which episode it was that you were maybe it's episode 16 with Jared, I think. Was it with the first guest episode, jared Easley?

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I remember you were like, oh, this is going to take me a bit of time, but I think I really want to try a narrative style because I enjoy listening to that style. And I think this would make it more although the guests are great, rather than a straight Q and A. And I was like, oh, that does sound quite complicated and it does take time. But I was like, that would make a lot of sense. And I remember trying that format.

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So for us, it was like, okay, well, here's going to be some really awesome information, but how do we turn that into more of a story? Not a once upon a time story, but a narrative that is much more pleasant to listen to, which means that the information and the strategies and stuff are going to be more impactful for people. So I think to me, enjoyable just goes, how do I make this a better listening experience? Yeah, I think that's right. And it does take a bit of time for me to bring it all together if I'm going to be honest.

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But I think with that time as I'm doing it, sometimes I do sit there going like, why am I doing this? This is, you know, by the way, I did a whole episode with Dave Jackson on this. I don't know the number off the top of my head, but definitely go and listen to that. If you are interested in learning about the ins and outs of doing a narrative style podcast, we kind of COVID that. We also cover the bad, like the oh my gosh, what are we know the editing and everything else.

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But hopefully by going through that pain ourselves, we actually hopefully make it a really enjoyable listening experience for you because I would prefer to put that hard work in and create an output or an outcome that serves you than to just be like, okay, well, I'll just publish something the way it is. Exactly. I don't know. Is it going to be enjoyable for you? Maybe not, but I don't know.

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I think I feel better approaching it that way. Definitely more enjoyable than it would have been. I think that's the thing because and this is where I think as a host, you sort of lean into your superpower. That doesn't make it easy. None of this stuff is easy.

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Just because you're good, you have the superpower. So in your case, you're really good at joining the dots doesn't mean that putting together a narrative style episode is easy because it requires so much cognitive effort and time. But that is sort of how your brain naturally thinks. So you just let your brain do that. I think it makes you a very attentive host, too, because as you're listening, you're like, oh, that's a really I really like that point.

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And let me make sure that we highlight that in this way. So I think that's where you bring your value to it. Like no one else is going to do it like that. Yes, for sure. And I think as we were talking about this, you came up with a particular term to describe what it is that we're doing with the narrative style podcast.

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Not just an enjoyable listening experience, because enjoyable is just we have to think of other synonyms because that's actually the name of the second tier. So we can't actually use enjoyable listening experience. So, Bonna, if you were to describe the listening experience that we are trying to create for our listeners with this narrative style podcast, how would you describe it? I feel like I have to start this in my defense. Yeah, we're planning this anyway.

00:14:54
The way that I would describe it, and you can come for me in the comments later, but is a moist listening experience. Again. Take it as you will. But the way that I thought about it was to say sometimes not that our guests are boring, because our guests are amazing. But like you said, even with Jail, who we're talking about in this episode, there's a lot of information it can feel dense for really, you know, it can be dry.

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And what's the opposite of dry? Sometimes it's moist. So really what you do with your narrative style is he brings some lubrication to some of this information and it's a delicious moist listening experience. There you go. Love it.

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So I would love to hear from you. Please email hi@Capsho.com with what you think about Bonnet's description of this podcast. Is it more behind it, do you think? It's like, how are your earbuds feeling? They're feeling well, Lucid.

00:15:52
They're ready for the day after you listen to one of these episodes. And you're welcome. Okay, so we are going to get into the third I don't know where to go from here. I feel like you just full stop and then you just move on like it never happened. If this doesn't make it, I'm fine.

00:16:07
I enjoyed this. Okay, we're going to get into the third and fourth tiers and break down how we thought about it for our podcast right after this short break. Welcome back. Okay, so we are currently breaking down Jay Akunzo's Audience Resonance Pyramid, which is a four tier framework that he has to ensure that the premise of your podcast is actually one that is going to stand out and become a favorite for your audience. And what we're doing in this particular episode is we're actually working out how it is that we can apply that framework to this show.

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And we took a lot of thinking and a bit of back and forth, and we came up some really great things. So one is from a relevance perspective, obviously, table stakes, fundamentally, if nothing else, what does this podcast do? It provides the strategies and tactics to help entrepreneurs with a business podcast grow their shows. The second tier is enjoyable. And again, how do we make it enjoyable?

00:17:05
By apparently creating a moist listening experience. What's with the apparently it's going to catch up. So that's to make it enjoyable. Okay, so how are you making it enjoyable for your listener? And again, this is our example of it, is that we do it through a narrative style podcast.

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Now, I know that that is not like, it's a lot of work, so we are not expecting anyone else to be following in our footsteps. Definitely listen to last week's episode. Jay goes through another example, which may or may not have something to do with eating hot wings you're going to get hungry listening to. Yeah. But yeah, just think about what is it that how do you make your podcast enjoyable for your audience?

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And this is where less shows honestly make it even to this second tier. Right. Again, first tier is like inundated everyone you who you might perceive as your competitors. Anyone who starts a podcast has some kind of relevance in some way. We would hope for their audience.

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But enjoyable is it's a pretty hard one to get into because this is where you have to start thinking a little bit creatively about how you're bringing the listening experience to life for your audience. So anyway, so that's the second tier. Now the third tier is impactful. And this just raises the bar again, because now we're like, oh, wait, what? How do we I thought it was enough to have this slight difference of having a narrative start podcast.

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Now we have to make it impactful. What does that mean and what does that look like? And for us, and I actually want to, we only really stumbled upon this very recently, actually, it was Gosh. Which episode was it? It was the episode after the one that 66.

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It was Episode 66. Okay. Episode 66 was where Bona and I, just like we're doing now, spoke about how we took what we learned from Alexis Hugh from Boxelize and implemented it for this podcast, this show. And when we released that episode, I remember getting I think I was getting DMs, and we got a particular email from Jerry, jerry Dugan. Hi, Jerry.

00:19:10
From beyond the rut. And he had some really awesome things to say about that particular episode. I mean, Jerry's. Great. He's such a growth minded individual, so this doesn't surprise me at all.

00:19:20
But I think really, that was the unlock where he was, I think, out doing a bit of hiking or rucking and listening to Episode 66. And he wrote back to say, my trail or my thing was for 30 minutes. And I loved that you stepped through these three steps of implementing PVO for your podcast, in this case, the Grow My Podcast show. And there were two substeps in step one out of the three steps. They are like thinking steps because the other two are doing steps.

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And he was actually, while he was rucking in the Texas heat, went through those two steps for his podcast. And I thought that was such a great example of this because we do this podcast so people can learn on the go and they have a resource that they can help implement. But us, I think, talking through, again, a very not dry, but like in a very information heavy episode on PVO, us bringing it to life with our podcast, very imperfectly in a very moist way. Very moist. Yeah.

00:20:15
I mean, the episode that you and Axis is very moist. It was a moist listening experience. And then that really set Jerry up to listen to 66, which was maybe less moist because I was there, but again, inspired him to action because he was so well lubricated to take action on step one, A and B and have this really compelling DJs and tears just from giggles, giggle tears. And I thought, that's amazing. That's exactly what we want.

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And as entrepreneurs, we're multitasking a lot of the time we're trying to move our bodies. We're trying to stay healthy, hydrated, and also to take action. And Jerry's also got a family, but just being able to do it in that 30 minutes to just take very specific action, come home and be excited. He was excited to get home, make those changes for his podcast and we'd love to hear the results when he's had a bit of time. Yeah, for sure.

00:21:09
So his email was subject line just made an improvement because of episode 66 of GMPS. I mean, if that is not impactful yes, I don't know what is. And so we took salts in that to be like, okay, well, how is it that we can make an impact? How can we make this podcast impactful? And that was to do more of these episodes where we actually talk through because we're learning and doing alongside you.

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We're very open about that. We don't know all the things. In fact, that's why a lot of times we get guest experts on and I do a lot of events for Capshovians Masterminds and Challenges because I am learning as well as we go. And so it makes total sense for us to be like, well, if we're learning and we're doing it, why don't we just share about that? Hopefully that can make an impact by way of we can go through.

00:21:56
We almost provide another example for you to think about how to apply the frameworks that we're learning to your own podcast or business. Yes. And so that was actually really eye opening and I was like, great, let's do more of that. And that's how we can hopefully make this show more impactful. So that's the third tier of the audience residence pyramid and how we're applying it to this particular podcast.

00:22:21
And so then the fourth tier, the last tier is to make it personal. And this is a hard one to not going to lie. I mean, all of these tiers are hard, really, but this one's obviously very hard because it sits at the top of the pyramid and it's really about how it is that I can make this personal to you and to you listening to this. And I guess I always come back to why did we start this podcast and who do we start this for? Basically we're the same, you and I.

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I started this podcast for you. But actually I started this podcast for me because I know that for me especially, the best thing about or the best way to learn I think is actually by learning directly, but also by doing. And I also know that entrepreneurs, as entrepreneurs, we have so many things going on that it's sometimes hard to do all the things and it sometimes gets really lonely. And so more and more, I think you may have noticed this. If you've been a longtime listener of this podcast, you'd know that there are some particular episodes where it's like Bono and I or with Ash, with or.

00:23:33
I've had one with Alex Sanfilippo where we almost just used it as a cathartic episode to talk about the difficulties we've been having in our entrepreneurship journey. And so that's the thing. I know this is a ramble mess as well. Just bear with us. So this kind of like we have multiple jobs as entrepreneurs and I don't think that that gets I think it gets talked sorry, I shouldn't say it doesn't get talked about enough.

00:23:58
It does get talked about a lot, but I think probably not in a way that is actually like implementable. Not to say that we are talking about in a way that's implementable, by the way, but I think we want to start to potentially head that way because at the very minimum we know that being an entrepreneur has at least at least two full time jobs. One is being an entrepreneur as in actually keeping a business going. And the second thing is marketing. If you are an entrepreneur, at the end of the day, you are a marketer.

00:24:29
You have to be there is no other way that you can actually build a sustainable business. And so that's kind of what this podcast is really leaning into. It's definitely leaning into the marketing side for sure. But more and more we are bringing in the entrepreneurship side as well. And hopefully by us actually sharing our personal journey with you, you can also see that you don't have to be alone in this because entrepreneurship is incredibly difficult functionally, like to do the things to do it.

00:24:56
Yeah, it hopefully doesn't have to also be as lonely. And I know we like to rise above the whole thing of misery loves company, but it does. You don't want to be alone in your quote unquote misery sometimes. Not to say that it's miserable all the time, but if you can kind of hear hopefully that hey, there are actually like all of us, we all struggle in certain points in this entrepreneurship journey so you're never alone in that then hopefully that makes this a little bit easier. So that's kind of how we thought about how we can make this podcast personal.

00:25:36
I don't know if you had any other thoughts to add to that. No, the only thing I would add or change is that I think you said sometimes I feel like it's most of the time and it's not because you don't like what you're doing. They're very different things. I think we're doing hard things every single day and it can feel like that. So I think yeah, I couldn't agree more.

00:25:56
That's really almost like the heart of this podcast. Yes. And hopefully let us know. I don't know if we're living up to that. This is new as in obviously implementing this pyramid is new to us.

00:26:07
So we're probably not doing all the things consistently yet. That's the point of doing this. Exercise. Now we know we have a bit of a frame. We know the path that we need to be on.

00:26:18
So I'd love to hear from you again, email hi@capsho.com. Do you think that we hit one, two, three, maybe all four? Are we on the way? Do you have any feedback for us on how we can become your absolute favorite show? Because that's the name of the game.

00:26:36
That's what we want to be doing. So just to recap, so this is only step two, by the way, of creating your premise so that you become your audience favorite show. But step two is an audience resonance pyramid. It comprises of four tiers. The first tier is relevance, second tier is enjoyable.

00:26:53
Third tier is impactful and the fourth tier is personal. So again, we've talked through what that means and looks like for this podcast. What does that mean and look like for your podcast? I'd love to hear what your thoughts are. So that's step two.

00:27:06
Now step three is then pulling it all together. And again, go and listen to Jay's to last week's episode because know, he went through the same thing, the same structure. He went through the audience resonance pyramid and then at the end he was like, all right, now it's time to pitch it. Now that you've kind of got those four, I guess tears when you expand the tears, yeah, expanded tears when you make it your own, I don't know. Anyway, yes, when you do the things, when you have the substance, you can now morph it, mold it into the pitch, which becomes your trailer, which becomes your podcast description, which becomes the tagline for your podcast.

00:27:48
It's actually really powerful. And so what I wanted to do was read out what we came up with. This is totally first draft and by the way, we haven't even overlaid the stuff that we learned from a PVO perspective. So we're going to do that next and we'll pull it. Maybe we'll share our before and after in the show notes.

00:28:07
And obviously you'll also see the after we'll update our podcast description as well. But what do you think about this? You are an entrepreneur who wants to reach more people with your podcast without losing your time and sanity. But if you're honest, that's feeling less and less attainable more than ever. Entrepreneurs who podcast are faced with so much change and so many to do's at breakneck speed.

00:28:31
It's getting unsustainable leading to slow or no growth and burnout. The more you do, the less impact you seem to have. Is it just a fact of entrepreneurship life? How do we best thrive? Not just survive, because that's the problem.

00:28:46
We're so busy trying to do all the things we can't remember what it's like to have true impact with our message? It's a lonely struggle. We've launched our podcast and published regularly with a bit of promotion. But we haven't cracked the code on using it to grow our business. Surprise.

00:29:03
You have two full time jobs entrepreneurship and marketing. We need better, more flexible systems that allow us to succeed without burning out. Because for entrepreneurs who podcast today, being resilient is just as crucial as being known. I am Deirdre Tshien. Join me on this weekly show where entrepreneurs who podcast share the strategies and tactics they're using to grow their business and their podcast.

00:29:28
But just as you face increased pressure to learn and implement, we are increasing pressure on ourselves to also learn and implement the right things. We learn through piecing together our own and guest expert strategies. And we implement alongside you. Because today's premium entrepreneurship skill isn't just learning all the things and putting it on the shelf. It's about doing it imperfectly and consistently to get results.

00:29:53
This is a show about growing a business through growing a podcast. Unlike other shows about growing a podcast, we bring together disparate strategies and tactics shared by seasoned entrepreneurs in a cohesive way and implement with you along the way. I do love the dramatic voice. Right? I know.

00:30:09
I didn't know another way that I could read that out. It's better than my Johnny Carson voice, but please, can you read it? You got to tune into another podcast. All right, we'll save that for later. And then it was like, okay, well, can we come up with a tagline?

00:30:21
I don't know. Let's give it a go and see. Maybe it won't hit. Maybe it will. Let us know again.

00:30:25
hi@capsho.com. There's a lot that you want us to we want you to email into us with. Okay, so tagline the grow my podcast show. The only thing today's top entrepreneurs who podcasts have in common is how they implement. I felt like you were ready.

00:30:40
You were more ready with that. Yes. Okay. So that was a really long description, but hopefully you could see how by going through those four tiers, we started pulling those themes in together into that description. We didn't necessarily call out narrative style, but the reason why we use a narrative style, for example, is to bring that cohesive structure together.

00:31:02
And that's kind of what we pulled into the description, the implementation, obviously, the impactfulness part of it and the personal part of it. So, yeah, let us know if what you thought of that. Was it a little bit too dramatic? Maybe it was my voice. I think it was too dramatic.

00:31:17
Well, I mean, let's hear it from the people, though. Yeah. So definitely email us hi@capsho.com and give your feedback because we are here to create your favorite show. That's all we have for today. Thanks for joining us on the Grow my podcast show.

00:31:31
My name is Deirdre Tshien. I'm Bona Rai, and as always, stay awesome.