46. How High-Income Podcasters Use LinkedIn to grow their podcast with Kevin Chemidlin

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Let's go. This will be fun. Alright, so we are looking at page eight and so specifically about what marketing channels podcasters actually attribute to their success. So was there anything surprising I'd love to hear from you if there's anything surprising you found from this particular graph. From the marketing channels that podcasters attributed to their success.

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Success, right. Yeah, I was a little surprised to see how many high income podcasters attributed their success to LinkedIn is not something I don't think it's talked about as much in the podcast growth world. So it was totally surprising to see that LinkedIn was such an outlier and it was especially surprising to see the difference between high income podcasters and how they look at LinkedIn and low income podcasters and how they look at LinkedIn. So number one, LinkedIn's overall prevalence was surprising, but it also took me aback to see the stark difference between the high and low podcasters and what they. Think about yeah, because that one actually had the most like the highest difference between the two groups.

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For LinkedIn it was like by a difference of 7%, which is the highest of any other channel. So I think you're right, like yeah, the fact that it was such a pivotal one and yeah, for high income podcasts because I know that you have some thoughts on why LinkedIn is up there for high income podcasters. I do. So a couple of thoughts as to why that is. Number one, I think it shows a fair amount of savvy in the high income podcasters that they know to go after underpriced attention.

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So everybody is talking about TikTok and Instagram and shorts these days. Everybody's talking about a short form video. And so since that's what everybody's talking about, there's the most competition for attention there. LinkedIn folks aren't talking about as much and so it's what Gary V calls underpriced attention, meaning it's just cheaper to get eyeballs there. So, number one, it doesn't surprise me that while initially the data surprised me when thinking about it, it doesn't surprise me that high income podcasters knew to go to LinkedIn for some of that underpriced attention.

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The other thing that I'll force some of that underpriced attention, the other thing I'll say is that if you're a lower income podcaster, I don't necessarily think the conclusion needs to immediately be, oh well, I should get on LinkedIn. That doesn't necessarily need to be like the message there because I'm also willing to bet that part of this discrepancy has to do with the fact that the high income podcasters that are on LinkedIn probably have business shows. Their show might relate more towards something professional, they might even be online business owners. And when your show is business and impact focused like that, it's a little bit easier to monetize, especially if you consider selling products or services as monetization, which a lot of online coaches, online business owners, online experts do. So like I said, overall surprising to see LinkedIn so heavily represented by the high income podcasters.

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But I also think there is a little bit at play there that just has to relate to they're probably talking about business which inherently makes more money. Yeah, that's a good point and I would add on to that as well that I would posit. I don't know whether or not this is true, because we didn't go into this in the data, but that high income podcasters are probably also using LinkedIn specifically because they know exactly who their audience is and that they are linked in versus I get the sense. And I don't know if you get the sense as well, Kevin, but I know I did this when I was like, I'm serving everyone, surely. But when you kind of feel like you're serving everyone, you're talking to a lot of people, then you might tend to gravitate towards the platforms, where it's like, well, everyone's on Instagram, and I hear that everyone's on TikTok now, right?

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I wonder if there's a little bit of that coming into this as well. Teacher, that was one of the first thoughts I had as well. I totally agree with you there. I think you probably will see folks that have a more broadly focused show gravitate towards more broad platforms like TikTok, especially TikTok. TikTok is probably the broadest one and then Instagram.

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And also I'm willing to bet in addition to that, that those folks are the more sort of entertainment based podcasters because that type of stuff generally plays better on TikTok and Instagram than like a business or an impact focused one. But I agree with you 100%, TikTok and Instagram are broad platforms and it is more difficult to monetize a broad show. It's just kind of full stop. The more broad your audience definition is, the harder it is to make good money from the show. So I think that I totally agree with your observation also.

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Okay, so we started with kind of like that's the biggest surprise. And what I loved about what you picked out about LinkedIn was that no one talks about it. Now what's really interesting is, I mean, I don't know about you, but I don't feel like with the next email, for example, no one really talks about email that much, especially around with a podcast show. So what's really becoming really interesting is like oh wow, all these platforms or channels that people don't really talk about paying, some podcasts are on and using more of than low income podcasts. Do you have any thoughts on that?

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Because I just find that fascinating as a data point. It is and what came to mind was just how conventional wisdom, conventional wisdom is just usually wrong. That was literally my first thought when I saw that and I'm like, of course, all the things that everybody thinks is going to grow their podcast is not the thing that's actually going to grow their podcast. And I feel like that's just how life goes, right? The shiny object syndrome thing.

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Right? Syndrome, exactly. And it's like if everybody's talking, if everybody's saying this is how you do something, it probably doesn't work anymore because everybody's doing it. And so what will happen now is because of this awesome report, everybody's going to flock to LinkedIn and email and in three years everybody will be doing that and that won't work. So it's been evolving and we're like, oh, actually, yeah, because for a while, I mean, Instagram did fairly well to help podcasters grow, especially in 2018 and 19 when audiograms was a new thing.

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It worked well, but then everybody started putting up audiograms on Instagram and then it kind of became tiring and it became less effective. So I think what we've put together here is a glimpse into what all of us podcast experts will be talking about in two to three years. You've got to be on LinkedIn, you gotta be on email, right? Yes. And I guess, I mean you're, you're kind of like a little bit ahead of the curve in terms of compared to this report because Guesting really featured here as well for both high income and low income.

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But overall it's a very, very popular way for people to grow their shows. And I know you started speaking about your framework around targeted podcast pitching even before this report came out. So what did you find? Because I think this is one of those things where Guesting feels like it's never not going to play a part in the growth of a podcast show. Yeah, I agree with that 100%.

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And if you think about it, it just makes sense because it's just intuitively more efficient that when you do something, when you employ a growth strategy that is in the world of the platform that you're trying to grow, it's generally going to be more successful and more efficient. So if you want to grow a TikTok, you should probably try to grow that TikTok on TikTok. If you're trying to grow a podcast, it's probably going to work better to grow that podcast on other podcasts just because you're going to have 100% efficiency in that. Everybody you reach will already be a podcast listener and you'll reach them in the moment that they are being a podcast listener. So it's one of those things where I wasn't surprised to see it so prevalent with all of the podcasters that were surveyed.

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But I think that it continuously surprises me. It's less obvious how to do that to folks because everybody emails everybody on social media. And so I think all podcasters find it easy to imagine how they'll grow their show with those platforms, but it's not as obvious to everybody how to be a guest on another podcast because it's not something that we all do every single day in our normal lives.

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What's fascinating to me about this is how while everyone says that they know that they attribute podcast growth to Guesting, it seems that they don't act that way. They don't seem to put as much time and energy into actually guessing on other shows. That was something that stuck out to me where everybody knows this works, so why isn't everybody doing it more? That's my big question and I think it's just because it's a little less easy to know exactly how to do it. I mean, that's what we try to help with, with the TPP framework.

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But I think that's what's at play. Here and I think this isn't fully the other overlay that I find interesting in this report is when you think about what seems easy from an emotional perspective. Right, so we think about that because I think we've all done this where it's like I'm just going to put out a post. Yes, job done. Tick.

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I can go about it like super easy. So being on social media is like the easy way out. Does it get results? Questionable. I mean, we can see from this report that it's very questionable.

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Right, but the things that take time, like Guesting, like writing emails consistently to your list, like even blogging, even figuring out and using LinkedIn in the right ways, that stuff is hard and it takes time. And I think we can't downplay the fact that high income, they're high income for a reason. Because they're willing to dig in and do the hard work. Yeah, exactly. They recognize that they're going to have to do just that.

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They're going to have to work to grow their audience. It's not something that just blows up overnight. You make one post and it explodes, and then you've made it as much as we all, many of us, when we start as podcasters, dream of that moment, and then we all have that moment later where we realize, oh, it's not going to just blow up. It's going to be a little bit more of a slow build. Yeah.

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And I think the high income podcasters are the people who have gotten on the other side of that hump. You'll also notice that those are the folks who tend to be on more platforms and I think that also indicates that they're in it for the long game. They understand they have to have multiple strategies to grow a show and that they are clearly seeing the value of staying consistent and showing up consistently in many different places. Yes. Okay, this is an awesome segue into looking at another page of the report because I think what you are referring to is now page ten where we talk about how many channels podcasters are actively promoting.

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On and pay income weigh 7878 channels on average. Low income podcasters, six, five, six, sometimes eight, depending it's a little bit. Yeah, so I think you're right, they are just on more channels. So they figured out a way to be on more channels but be able to do it hopefully seemingly more consistently and more intentionally. I think I would be really curious oh, sorry, I didn't mean to cut you.

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Cool, sorry. What I would be really curious though, because I would again caution against a newer podcaster or lower income podcaster from saying oh, then that means that for me to be high income I need to be on seven channels. I don't think that's the case and I think it'd be really easy to draw that conclusion because what I would be curious about is number one, how long did it take these high income podcasters to be present successfully on seven different channels? Did they build out all seven channels all at once or was it kind of one at a time? You work on one, you get it going and you start building the second one.

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I would posit that it was probably the latter. It was probably a little bit more of a slow build. And what I'll also point out is that they might be on seven channels because they're a high income podcaster, which means that they can afford to hire help to be effective on seven channels. So we want to be careful not to, as early podcasters, draw conclusions that oh, well, if I want to be a high income podcaster, I need to be on seven channels. That's kind of like, oh, a billionaire flies around on private jets.

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So in order for me to be a billionaire, I need to fly private, right? So it's like, no, not really, it's the other way around. But again, the thing that I would be curious about is which came first, the seven channels or the high income? Yeah, and on that same line because I think you're absolutely 100% right there. Like I'm of the same mind.

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I mean, even for me, like I even now, I'm like, okay, I'm now ready to add another channel. Like I'm even now just trying to make my way up to that seven channel high income podcasting stat there. But what was also really interesting, and I don't think you're going to be surprised by this stat, but on the page of the report I'm looking at page 22, I was like, I'm continuing. Wow, this thing's long. And what's really interesting is the number of episode download.

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And I know that you've spoken about this before, which is that you don't need huge amounts of download. I mean we all think because sometimes we go to podcasts independent of the reason, but if it's like I'm going to get sponsorships, okay, well then you kind of sometimes have to think about those download numbers differently if you're like an initial audience. But I think that's what this talks about, this specific slide talks to or this page is about debunking how on average the number of downloads we should be seeing or we want to see or whatever in order to make an income from our podcast. And what I would posit with this is that it goes back to that niche audience. Like people for example, high income podcasters are able to use platforms like LinkedIn really successfully because they know who they're talking to.

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And that's kind of the same here where they don't need a lot of listeners to monetize their podcast. I'm also going to assume that this isn't just from sponsorships, that a lot of this is also from coaching and using the podcast as a part of their business funnel. And that's why they don't actually, on average, need to see a huge number of downloads. What are your thoughts on that? I think it's absolutely striking that we look at page 22 and see that every single one of the high income podcasters who make more than fifty k a year have fewer than 1000 downloads per episode, right?

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Every single one of them learned some. Podcasters are like more than 5000, right? There's a low income, right? Yes. There's one that has more than 5000.

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So if there's anything that debunks the direct correlation that we think there is between how many downloads you have and how much money you're making for your podcast, I think it's this because they are not tied together at all. You do not need to have tons of downloads in order to make tons of money. And also if you have tons of downloads, that doesn't mean that you're going to make tons of money. Monetization is a separate strategy that can be successful regardless of how many downloads that you have. It's so fascinating.

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So I'm hoping that this in itself is giving people hope. If you're looking at those download numbers week in weekend and you're like, oh my gosh, we're not going to crack the four figures or whatever it is for you, this means that it is possible. It is possible to monetize with lower download numbers. Really? Just in the hundreds, right?

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I mean, and it just proves, like, calling it back, just like so much of the conventional wisdom in this space, the things that we all assume to be true about how to grow a podcast, how feasible it is to make money from your podcast, how many downloads you have to have in order to make money, or how much money you'll make. All of those things, we all kind of come pre-programmed. I don't know what it is, but as podcasters we tend to have these pre programmed conventional beliefs and I think this survey proves almost all of them wrong, which is wonderful because it can really open us up to reaching success way faster. Yes. Okay, so you mentioned now I'm circling back to page eight, which is where we started, which is all about what it is that podcasts are both low income and high income, which marketing channels attribute to their success. And I'm just going to put it out there.

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I'm telling your fortune, Kevin. So you started with Targeted daily engagement, which is how to use social media to grow your podcast. You're now onto targeted podcast pitching, which is how you use guest guesting to grow your podcast. So is it going to be targeted? LinkedIn?

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Yeah, we got to come up with a catchy TL, I don't know, TLC targeted LinkedIn content. I don't know. Maybe that's the thing. I could tell you a few showers and that was it. Okay, now I'm totally putting on the spot here.

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What is going to be a strategy? What is the strategy behind using LinkedIn to grow a podcast show?

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As someone who is actually not super, super active now on LinkedIn, but I have several clients who I work with who are and who are some of these people, I mean, they may even be in this data here, who attribute LinkedIn to their success. What I can tell you is that there's really two things at play that are working really well for them, for LinkedIn. The first one is that LinkedIn has incredible organic reach, which often a lot of us don't realize. We think about TikTok, which also has incredible organic reach, but LinkedIn does as well. You can make a post and it can seriously go viral and really get you in front of tons of people who have never heard of you before, right, and didn't know that you existed, but if they found out about you would love your content.

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The other thing that I'll say, why I think LinkedIn works is that I just think that the overall things that people talk about on LinkedIn are more directly related to things that people want to listen to on podcasts. There's a lot of success in the business space and professional development and stuff like that. And so I think the content is not only there tons of organic reach, but also just the topic of the content, I think lends itself way more smoothly to podcasting to transitioning from, oh, I just read this LinkedIn post which has some really great points. I want more from this person. I think that TikTok and other social media platforms are just a little bit more whimsical and your relationship with your audience is way more shallow.

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It's just like, what's, 1 minute of video that can entertain me and then I'm on to the next. Whereas I think LinkedIn is a little bit deeper discussions, a little bit more sophisticated type discussions combined with that same organic reach. So reach. So that's why I think it works. And so what I'd say is the strategy would be to create content on LinkedIn that's related to your podcast.

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If your show is in some way related to business or professional or personal development or something like that, create content on LinkedIn. That is what we call summary content. That gives some of the value of your podcast episode and then invites the people that see it to go deeper by checking out your podcast. That's what I've seen work really well with the folks that I work with who have seen success on LinkedIn. And you can bet that in 2023 we're going to be giving that a more serious try with my own stuff, just from the data that we see.

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Here and what I'm going to be looking at for some TLC. Targeted LinkedIn content. Targeted LinkedIn content. You heard it here. First there was TV, then there was.

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TV, now there's TLC. Okay, awesome. This has been so much fun. Anything else you wanted to talk about or reflect? No, we hit it all.

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We definitely hit every single thing that I had pegged that I wanted to talk about. Awesome. I hope you enjoyed that very unedited conversation. If you want to hear more from Kevin, I invite you to listen to his podcast called Grow the Show, which, if I wasn't biased, I would say is the best podcast to listen to to help you grow your podcast. But I am biased, so I'm going to say it's the second best podcast after this one, of course.

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No, no, it's seriously amazing. So go listen to grow the show and as always, thanks for tuning in to this one. Stay awesome.