Your Short Game & Wedge Questions Answered by Terry "The Wedge Guy" Koehler

0:00 Golf Smarter number four hundred and forty one from June seventeen, twenty fourteen. Welcome to golf Smarter Mulligans, your second chance to gain insight and advice from the best instructors featured on the Golf Smarter podcast. Great Golf Instruction Never gets old. Our interview library features hundreds of hours of game improvement conversations like this that are no longer available in any podcast app. When you look at golf club ads, go to the website and look up every set of irons online, and you always got a picture of a six iron, maybe a seven. And these guys make every iron of a set look like a six iron, because we've been schooled for years that that's what a match set looks like.

0:41 But what we've learned over the last decade with the advent of these things called hybrids, that when I get down below the six and I get to a five or four, I get into that mid twenties even high twenties block range. This thing called a hybrid is a hell a lot easier way to make a twenty two degree gop club than to make it look like six iron. So we replace those low we're loft at clubs with hybrids. But we still have this nine and P that are sixteen and seventeen degrees weaker than a six iron that looked just like our six iron. Well, that's a very different golf club. A six iron in today's world is about twenty nine to thirty degrees in most cases. My P is forty four, So that's fifteen sixteen seventeen degrees between my P and my six. But if I go fifteen sixteen degrees the other way, I've got a driver or three wood.

1:32 Short game and wedge questions answered with Terry Kaylor. This is Golf Smarter. Welcome back to Golf Smarter for members only, Terry. Oh, thank you, Fred, it's good to be back. This question came from Matthew Edwards in Durham, North Carolina, and he says, I'm interested in getting some score wedges and interested in your thoughts on whether those of us that play blades should replace our nine irons in pitching wedges with score wedges. I understand the need if you play cavity backs, but I play MP sixty eight's and wonder if dropping the nine in pitching weg would be a smart move. I really do not like the existing wedges, and that is why I'm interested in score Goolf.

2:13 I dislike wedge. Are we wedge? We? I don't. I don't know what he's saying here. He has it in quotes, so I'm not sure we. I dislike it so much that I bought an extra MP sixty eight PW. I see his w wedge, I think is what he's saying, or a sandwich and had it bent to a GW loft. The vocy I have in the bag at fifty four degrees feels like an alien compared to the blades. I'm not going to comment on that last, but you know, I here my thought, and we know that this scoff club outperforms anything in the wedge category in the higher laws forty eight. No, we know that it's er out performs anything in the thin faced cavity back. And when I say that, I'm talking about your distance. Dispersion patterns are about ninety percent built into your god cleven ten percent your fault. I mean people complain about I can't control the distance my wedges. I've bought all the top brands.

3:17 You know, I'm pretty good with my seven six seven eight iron, but I'm terrible with my nine and pitch it must be me. Well, guys, I'm just going to give you absolution. It's not you, it's the clubs you're playing. They throw horribly broad dispersion patterns. Based on our experience watching them on iron bron you move impact up and down the face, you're going to get wildly different distance deliverables. It's not your fault, and Score has a solution for that. With regard to this listener and your Mizunos, I will tell you you this. By the full set of scores hit the nine equivalent and the p equivalent against your Mizunos, and if they're not better, send them back and we'll refund that part of your set. How's that.

4:01 That's an amazing offer and one that you've stood by forever. Well, when you make a product like this, you can back it up because we have had you know, less than one percent of the golfers send these clubs back and say, you know, they just don't work for me. And on about two thirds of those, we've helped them get the right shaft in their scores and send them back and then they do work for them. Nobody talks about shafts and scoring clubs, and people go will always play steel shafted wedges. That's what I'm ordering. Don't order your high loft clubs based on what you've always played in your wedges. Order room based on the iron shafts you have, because those of the shafts you're used to, and we want to give you a seamless transition from your six, seven, and eight right on the end of your set of scores. And we do that by getting the weight and the flex in your shaft match and the material matched.

4:49 There was a question that actually I saw that I wanted to come back to because it kind of fit. What you were just saying. Somebody here, Stephen Davis of Colorado Springs says, when I was fitted for irons, they made a big deal about getting the right flex. However, when I purchased wedges, it seemed like they were all the same flex. Do you think there's any need for different flexes in those wedges? My answer is unequivocably yes. And I was with a very well known head golf professional, and I won't mention him because he's on staff for a major brand. We were doing a fitting with some of his members who had requested it, and he made the comment, I had no idea the shaft in the high loft clubs had that much impact. Wow. And we watch people totally change their launch conditions, their dispersion pattern and everything by getting them in the right shaft. You know, we select the shaft based on the weight match to our profile, our strength profile, and a flex match to our strength profile.

5:47 But you know our clubs that we call wedges or full smleen golf clubs, they are just an extension of our iron set. Why would we not want that extension to be as seamless and as smooth a transition as we possibly could have. M M all right, let's talk about let's talk about hitting the ball. We've talked about the equipment. Let's talk a little bit about improving your scoring. Because this is the place where everyone has an issue. From from low handicap to high handicap golfers, they all seem to be asking the same type of shot, you know, having the same type of problems this one. Let's see what he says.

6:27 Okay, So the different grit types of grips that should be using on a chip versus a pitch shot, does the length of the chip or the pitch shot, change the grip. What about the grip pressure. Well, I'm a believer first of ball, and grit will start the back end of that. The grip pressure, I think is something that you want to keep as constant as possible. But the closer the shot, the more delicate the shot, you really want to hold the club wider because that gives you more feel and more precision. So you're going to grip the club lighter on a little soft pitch over the collar, You're going to fly them all eight or ten feet, let it run down to the hole. You're obviously going to hold the club a lot lighter on that shot than you would if you were hitting a full eight hor or full five R.

7:12 But even then, I'm a big believer in a light grip. And the vast majority offers hole the club too tightly, and we grip down because of other pressure, and you know, we're trying to make sure we don't hit it left or this or that. But grip pressure being light is one of the most fundamental things about God. Moving your hands up and down the grip I think is a very good idea. When you're the more delicate the shot, the more precise your impact needs to be and the club speed needs to be to get that exact carrying roll. You're looking for work slower and get closer to your work. And getting closer to your work means you move your hands down on that grip. I'm not a big believer in getting all the way down on the steel, but close to it, and that lets you have you know less, less error because you're, as I say, you're closer to your work, reflect your knees a little more, you're down a little more, and you're move in that club slower.

8:10 So we use a grip that Lambkin bills for us that we really like because it's an inch longer than the standard golf grip and it has less taper in it. So from your normal hand position, you grip down an inch, grip down another inch, even another inch, the club doesn't dramatically change the feel in your fingertips, so it because it's pretty much the same taper. And we really like that grip because it facilitates scoring range control. And that does I mean, obviously it affects the pressure that you have in your hands. That's why so many guys are putting the fact grips on their putters now because just to loosen the grip, to loosen the pressure on their hands. No, I agree, And you know, one of the trends and I play one of those, and the smaller size, but I think it works really well. I haven't gone to the the real big ones. I just like that the smaller size of these larger putter grips. But a trend that we see a lot is people going to bigger grips in their orange and woods, and I don't think that's a very good idea because people like the feeld of the larger grip because they're gripping the club too much up in their palm. I'm kind of drifting from that question. But the golf and go back and again, I'll go back and direct you to mister Hogan's five Lessons and there's a whole chapter on how to hold a golf club. And there is one really correct way to hold a golf club. And it doesn't matter whether you overlap or interlock or even full finger. The golf club has to be held in the fingers for the hands to work properly through impact. And when you get

9:41 that big grip and get that club up in your palms. It is costing you significant yardage because you're taking the accelerator of your proper hand action. You've just removed it. And a friend of mine once used the term he holds it like a ham sandwich. And there's so many bad grips out there, and this game is impossible to play with a bad grip. You got on the PGA to where you do not see bad grips out there. And the other thing that I've noticed on the short game shots the chipping and pitching, not only do you see a lot of white knuckles. I mean you see people really squeezing, squeezing the grip, and then you can see it in their shoulders. You see the tension and their neck and their mouth and their jaw. I mean, there's clearly a lot there. But I've also noticed that on the chipping and the pitching, when you're not taking a full swing, it seems like people tend to try to sweep the club more than descend on it and come down on the ball and you know, you know, get through the ball, and then they don't understand why the ball releases all the way across the green well.

10:54 People have a missed perception of the two things. One is this term accelerate through the ball, so you got more of these jabby type techniques out there. And the reality of it is it is almost impossible to decelerate a golf club. You can change the rate of acceleration, but if the club starts at zero at the top of the backswing, you know, on a short shot, it's pretty hard to move it fast and then slow it down. What people do is they start the downswing too quickly. And the best tip I ever had in my life, one of the best short game practitioners in amateur golf I ever saw back at my days at Faroks Ranch in San Antonio, and Dave was just beautiful around the greens, and we had this delicate surgeon's touch, and his simple swing thought was take the club back slowly to the end of where I think it needs to go, the end of the backstrope, and then I feel like gravity just lets my hands and my arms and the club drop into the golf ball. He didn't think about accelerating at all because he just thinks gravity. He said, right before I take it back, I just think gravity, And that is his tempo thought and it's really a if anybody's having trouble with their short pitches and their chip shots, it's a pretty good swing thought to mess around with.

12:11 And you know, we get this accelerate through the ball so ingrained. Well, if I start at zero and I get to the ball at two miles an hour, I still accelerated. The other thing I've come to my own personal realization is, especially on the short game, is that when I'm taking not a full swing, that if I keep my wrists, my left wrist, my forward wrists, you know, from breaking from and keeping the back of my hand towards the target and not following through all the way and coming up high, has a huge impact on the direction of my chipping.

13:00 Absolutely, And the easiest way to think about chipping and pitching is that as you start into your down swing, the back of the left wrist passes the ball before the clubhead gets to it. And if you always make sure that happen. I don't like to think about hitting down on the ball, but if you if you make because I think that that's changing my hope for I don't want to hit down on the ball. I want to hit a golf shot, and I want to make a swing. I don't want to hit the ball at all. I don't want to hit anything. I want to take this club back and through in an orientation that's going to make the ball do what I want it to do. And if you always just think about the back of the left hand gets past the if there's a plane of glass at the golf ball, that back of that left hand breaks that paint of glass. That clubhead doesn't break it. It's already broken when the clubhead gets there.

13:49 A little different, a little different pane of glass example than the one used in five lessons that talk about swing plane. And I'm talking about what gets to the ball. First, good thank you question from Matt in Brentwood. How do we know which scoring club to use? From the sand? A very frequent question. Are different types of sand a factor? Well, different types of sand are a factor in bunker play. The tour pros don't have to deal with that because they play tour qualities and every week, but the rest of us do. And you know, I to me, when you walk into bunker, I walk into the bunker typically with two clubs in my hand, and it might be my fifty five and fifty eight If it's a shorter bunker shot, it might be my fifty one and fifty five.

14:35 If it's a longer bunker shot, I've hit bunker shots with my forty seven, but all of the score soul designs are designed to make them a good bunker club. And I look at the bunker shot as how far do I need to carry it? How far do I want it to roll out? And I don't want to have to take a big old cut in the sand, and so I will typically if I've got a longer bunker shot, which typically means you got a lot of green to work with. On a longer bunker shot, I very often will lay open a fifty one or you know, or even a forty seven and make them just the same bunker swing i'd make with a fifty eight. On the shorter shot, it's going to come out lower, it's going to roll out more, and you know, to me, getting up and down out of bunkers is you know, going to be a relative rarity for the average amateur player.

15:22 What you're trying to do is not make more than three shots from that bunker, right, get it on the green, give yourself a putt somewhere in the twenty foot or less range. You're not going to hurt yourself. You hit in the bunker, you know you you've already kind of guns this hole a little bit and get it out of the bunker. And unless you have a place where you like to go practice bunker shots an hour or two a day, you know getting up and down out of the bunker is going to be the exception rather than the rule. I mean, the best guys on tour two thirds and they do this for a living. So yeah, yeah, let let's let's get our expectations in check here, because we are not tour players, and we think that we have all those shots in our bag because we saw somebody on TV do it.

16:03 Right, if you played, if I would tell your listeners all of it, if you played tour bunkers, and we'd all be ten times better bunker players if we got to play the sand they play, they're watered down. Let me tell you something I learned the other day. I didn't know this has been several months ago. Watch the telecast, and the caddies always go into the bunker on the side of the bunker, away from the hole, and they rake the bunker directly away from the flag. So the bunker rake grooves go from that spot right toward the flag because it's an easier bunker shot to hit it with the grooves than across the grooves. And do they do that out of courtesy? No, they do that because they get fined if they rake it any other way. Oh, I mean, these guys got a lot of advantages. There's also a tour sand texture. Go watch the guys on the tour walk in the bunkers. They don't really grind their feet into the sand because the bunkers are so firm they don't need to. They'll move them a little bit, But you don't see those guys walk into these fluffy bunkers and bury their feet like we have to sometime and then figure out how to get out of this dalkol powder stuff.

17:12 Tell me why we burn our feet like that? Why do we bury our feet like that in bunkers? Just so that your feet won't move when you go into your swings. They'll give you a stable platform. Okay, Derek wants to know, all conditions being equal, what do you think has more control for in between distant shots, stepping up on a gap wedge or easing up on the pitching. Wedge neither one. First of all, your gaps are too big. If you're playing conventional golf club, you have a twenty five yard fifteen yard gap in there. Probably at the very least, the easiest way to hit the end between shots for recreational golfer particularly, but even for tour player is take the longer club, grip down on a three quartern inch into swing it.

17:58 That's it, really it. Yeah, it'll cut your gap about in half. Ever, go amp up a wedge or a short iron, because what happens is you swing harder, the ball goes higher and it goes shorter properly. Uh huh. Phil mickelsoning a day about day lost to us opening by doing that. Actually, now that you think about it, you. Know it had a great conversation a couple episodes ago with Dave Stockton. Really, oh really, you. Got to go back and listen to that one. That was absolutely amazing. That we spent well over an hour together on the phone and it was not just unputting, and it was definitely a lot of the mental game. But course management in a way or not, I don't want to say courseman strategy beyond course management, the mental the mental side of strategy that I thought was so fascinating.

18:48 But yeah, and you know, he's just a wealth It was. It was remarkable. One of the things that really stood out to me that he said was, I have when I step up to the ball game and I'm looking at the shot, there is one of two shots that I have, a low one or a high one. Interesting. Yeah, you want to respond to that. You're making down that simple, right, Yeah, he. Says, I'm either going to make a low shot or high shot. That's all I'm thinking about. Wow, I'd love to get a lot more accomplished than that. And that's why he's the he's the one who's coaching Rory McElroy and Phil Mickelson and not you have a response to you have something you want to say about that.

19:34 But you know, I think that makes a lot of sense. And then you know whether he's doing that with the same club or not. But he's narrowing it down to two techniques, or you could narrow it down to two clubs. You know, you could go and say, you know what, I have a really good chipping technique, a really good you know chip pitch technique. And when I get to a shot, you know, I'm a multi club guy. You know, uh, you know standing guy was blinking on his last name. But you know a lot of the teachers are you'll really get good with your sum standently and and you know, learn how to hit all the shots. I don't think there's a wrong approach. My approach is I'm a recreational player. I don't play as much as I want to. I don't. I don't have that kind of command over my fifty five or fifty one anymore. And I go up and I look at it, it's like, you know what club with my chipping stroke, my basic learned stroke is going to get the flight and the rollout that this shot demand.

20:27 And if it's you know, use of fifty eight, I hit a fifty eight. If it's use of you know, forty three, I'm gonna chip with a forty three. And on a lot of shots that I run to, it's like you wide sided the green. You're four or five feet off the fringe, but it's really not puttable and the pen is sixty feet across the green. Well shot that I learned when I was a little kid that I still use a lot is I basically put it with a foreign. I take my foreign, I take my putting stands for my putting grip. I grip it lighter because the foreign is lighter than the butter. And I set the club up where it's more up on its toe, and I just basically put it and it gets it just enough loft flight over the edge of green. It rolls out pretty much like a putt wood and you know, get it within five six feet the whole or better.

21:12 Well, that works well when you have the uh your chip has the flag all the way on the other side of the green. You've got to so you're gonna want this ball to roll you right. You want the ball to be on the ground as long as possible, but you got to get it onto the green first. I gotta get on the green because if I if I hit that long, hard putt through the collar right, and the collar isn't really smooth. Now, when you go to the US Open next week at Pinehurst, I was out there a couple of weeks ago. Fabulous plays. They'll be putting from all over the place because they're only gonna be two cuts at Pinehurst. They're gonna be a green cut and a fairway cut. That's all it's gonna be. There's no deep rough at Pinehurst. It's gonna be wonderful. But you know, but if you have a good smooth surface, your best, but your worst put's probably gonna be as good as your best chip. But if you do have to get it over some scruffy stuff or even a sprinkler head or something like that, that that putt with a foreign or even a four hybrid, it's a good shot.

22:03 You can go spend five minutes with it around your putting grain and get a feel for it and put it in your arsenal. I actually recently that happened to me. The I was on the fringe, but the ball was setting just up against the taller grass right the rough there. So my putter just couldn't cut through that, and so I pulled out my four hybrid and hold it. I mean, well, that fabulous. And will say that's the place you want to use that belly wedge. But let me tell you, unless you practice that belly wedge, man's and it's a wonderful shot. Don't get me wrong, man, you need to practice that because the ball comes off a lot hotter off the edge of the sandwidge than it does off the face of a putter, a lot hotter.

22:45 And if you're hitting that little belly wedge shot and you're playing for it to be really really hot, and you swing a half an inch low, three quarter of an inch low, you just hit your little wedge put about four feet. Yeah, if it goes that far. Yeah, yeah, and you might double hit it. Now explain, I'm not exactly sure what you mean my belly wedge belly. Where you set the way the ball's up against the collar, Yeah, you can't get anything on it. So you take your sand wedge and you just hit the ball right in the equator with the with the leading edge. Oh I see, I see, okay, okay, yeah, I could not. I would not have the confidence to pull that one off. Yeah, that has got to be you really got to practice that.

23:26 Yeah you do. So. Now let's take the scenario of your your ten feet off off the green and yet the flag is only a few feet You know, you don't have to go all the way, you don't have to roll it forever, but you definitely got to get the ball in the air to get on the green because there's a sprinkler head in your way or something. But you don't want the ball to roll far. So why what is the difference in that shot versus what you talked about your four iron? Well, I think there you're go in the opposite. You need high loft on the club, as Dave Stockton said, and you like it to stop pretty quickly. The biggest problem that people do with that shot. First of all, short shining yourself is not the way to shoot its score.

24:13 So you want to keep those two a minimum. But chances are that shot, you know, you might have it where the green's going to kind of run away from you possibly, but you know, six feet long of the hole is just as good as six feet short of the hole. So make sure you don't get so cute with it as they say that you don't it and have that shot over again. It doesn't have to stop short of the hole. And so on that shot, you know, typically you want to lay the face open a little bit, and you want to pick the club up a little quicker to get a little steeper angle of descent, and look at the back edge of the ball right with the ball and you know, right at the spot of the ground right behind the ball and drop that club again with gravity, drop that club down to that slot and and you know, with a little bit of follow through, it should pop up for you. But again, that's a shot you need to practice. And what's really a good little exercise late in the afternoon. Just take your you know, a couple of wedges, your gap in your hand or whatever, and go out around. You know, you don't have to be on a green, go the driving range, get you a bag of balls and nobody's over there, and just chip around, hit little different shots, see what swings produce, what ball flights, and chalk those up to memory. Learn what your golf club will do. You know, you can get a bag of balls and go out to the range and the far end of the range, if it's not crowded, chip around on the tee line, and then go hit them all. Get you some practice in.

25:32 You gave me a tip years ago that I still repeat, I still think is one of the great ones, and that would be looking at the front of the ball, aiming for the front of the ball. Yeah, I'm a big believer in that with most of your shots, you know, keeping kind of folks and not just look at the ball. Look at the front edge of the ball that decide toward the target, and it makes your contact crisper. It helps me gets fine. It's the old am small miss small thing. Let me look at the front edge ball because i want ball first contact the shot that I was just talking about, and I'm going to shift my focus over to the back of the ball on that one. If I'm in the bunker, I'm going to shift my focus to a spot behind the ball. Love that tip. Love that tip.

26:13 It really makes for crisper shots. It really does. It really does, because so many times when you're in that situation, you hit about four inches behind the ball and then the club face bounces off the ground, hits the top of the ball and it goes nowhere. Either that or the club sticks in the dirt and the ball didn't move it all. And that's really fun. That's really embarrassing. Oh my. So one of the things, I had a four foot shot and I hit at zero inches. No, that's called a practice swing. Y. One of the things that people frequently ask about the score score golf clubs is that you don't have a sand wedge, right, you have the different lofts and again, explain how the forty one sixty one one works. Score Golf forty one sixty one works, and then let's talk about what a sandwige is and why you don't have a designated sandwich.

27:07 Well, first of all, Score forty one sixty one. The name comes from the fact that we make every golf club from forty one to sixty one degrees, make twenty one different club heads because over on this set of irons, your eight iron maybe thirty seven degrees, on this set of irons of maybe thirty nine, on this set of irons of maybe thirty eight. And what we want to do is to be able to exactly gap the short end of your set four degrees for a long hit, or possibly even three for a shorter hit, or maybe five degrees. We want to give you the exact gapping. So if you have a thirty seven degree eight iron, your prescription is probably forty one, forty five, forty nine, fifty three, fifty seven. Well, nobody makes those. I don't want to go bend around on a golf club. These are my precision tools, so we do make them, and it lets us have infinite control over your gaping to get you down to these differentials. Between clubs that give you what you want. And the reason we don't anything sand wedge, gap wedgeor whatever, because they're all scoring clubs.

28:03 I mean, I talked a while ago about walking into a bunker with a forty seven and a fifty one. I got a long bunker shot. Those that's v sole design that we have that's been proven for twenty five years. It works regardless of a loft. I mean, we were out messing around a day hitting flop shots with a forty three. I mean, who thinks about hitting the flop shot with a nineer? You know, but you can do that, and it gives you another shot if you're willing to go play around with it in experiment with it. But you know, the idea is, if I have a real close bunker shot, not much green to work with, not much carey to do the fifty eight or nine sixty sixty one, that's a great golf club for that because it's going to pop up a little higher and stop a little quicker. But if I left it down and it rolled back maybe to the middle of the bunker and the pins up in the middle of the green, and I got a thirty or thirty five yard bunker shot.

28:50 I got to put a pretty big cut on it with that fifty eight, and I don't want to make that big a cut on it because if I catch it a little thin, it's over the green and out of bunds or whatever back there. So that shot, I may take a fifty five or even a fifty one and just make a more control swing, Let it come out lower and run across some of that green instead of trying to fly it all the way to the hole. Explain to me again, you talked once about why. I remember specifics of the conversations that we've had, but we've had. So many conversations. That's probably why. But the loft difference between what I think you explained the driver to the five iron versus the scoring clubs different.

29:32 Well, yeah, exactly. You know when you look at golf club ads out there, go to the website and look up every set of irons online sold, and you always got a picture of a six iron. Maybe a seven used to be a five back in the old days before loss for chain. But and these guys make every iron of the set look like a six iron, because we've been schooled for years that that's what a match set looks like. But what we've learned over the last decade with the advent of these things called hybridge, that when I get down below the six and I get to a five or four, I get into that mid twenties, even high twenties prickarly low twenty loft range. This thing called a hybrid is a hell a lot easier way to make a twenty two degree golf club than to make it look like six iron. You know, three irons are really hard to hit. I'm sorry, They're really hard to hit for anybody. And so we've replaced those lower lofted clubs that are only six or eight degrees stronger than a six iron. We replaced those with hybrids. But we still have this nine and P that are sixteen and seventeen degrees weaker than a six iron that looked just like our six iron. Well, that's a very different golf club. The illustration you referred to is a six iron at today's world is about twenty nine to thirty degrees in most cases. Okay, so my P is forty four, so that's fifteen, sixteen seventeen degrees maybe between my P and my six. But if I go fifteen, sixteen degrees.

30:52 The other way, I've got a driver or three wood, so I've got on the six iron down, I've got a driver, hit a three wood, hit a small dollar head with a five wood on it. I got a hybrid, maybe two hybrids, and then an iron and then my six iron. But the other way, I've got four clubs that look just like my six iron, the seven, eight nine pitch, and then three or four clubs that just looked just like a nineteen fifty nine wedge. I got two head designs for everything from thirty to sixty degrees, and I've got five head designs from thirty to twelve degrees. There's no logic to that whatsoever. But you know, only on a couple of occasions have companies said maybe a match that of iron shouldn't match at all. But they never were there with commitment. You know, if you believe that, then don't make any that do. That's what score golf.

31:39 So in your score golf set, there's forty one to sixty one degrees, there's twenty one degrees. There's seven different head designs. The weighting changes every three degrees, aloft each three degrees, there's another head design to take you down the next three, so we optimize weight distribution for the I got exact loft of that golf club so that you at better trajectory control, which is distance control. And you know the short end of the set, your misses are long and short mostly and if your misses are left and right the club, the club didn't have anything do with that. That swing path and clubhead at face ankle long and short, the club had a lot to do with that. But we've all been taught it's our fault. Score Golf, it's absolution. It's not your fault. You can't control your distance.

32:24 Well again, everything that you've you've offered your advice, it's it's amazing how the insight that you have on the game as but you come from the manufacturing side, from the design side of clubs. I you know, I used to uh have you know I played Mizuno clubs as irons as well, But I've replaced that end of my my uh set with the Score Golf, And I just was amazed how you based on the the form that I filled out on site, Uh, how you knew which degree losts that I needed and how well it's worked for me.

33:05 I've made it work for me. Well, there's a mathematical science to all this. And thank you for the kudos about being a golf club designer, but you know, I'm first and foremost for it. I'm a golfer. You know, I want to hit it closer to the whole, just like everybody else. And you know what drove me to become a designer because I'm not an engineer. I'm a golfer. And like mister Hogan was not an engineer, he was a golfer, and his constant pursuit of how to make the golf ball be more controllable led him to, you know, zero in on the golf club because that's what you're controlling it with. And you know, I think that when I have a golf club in my hand and I have a hard time flighting the ball down, well I know how to flight the ball down. That must be the golf club, you know, because I know how to do that, So why should I be able to And kind of what drove the whole development of score forty one sixty one is with my seven eight nine iron, I can very accurate lee I've learned over the years, very accurately to change my ball trajectory and distance to three and four yard increments in between those clubs. But I never was able to get there with the pitching wedge and the wedges, And it finally dawned on me, maybe it's not me, Maybe it's the golf club. So when we put conventional wedges on our environ and took impact in a one inch circle around the face, and we found that the ball traveled forty five to fifty feet different between the bottom of that one inch circle and the top of that one inch circle. Well, hey, an inch isn't very far.

34:34 And then we put these thin faced cavity back irons on the iron environing, and we found that that difference distance differential went to seventy eighty ninety eight feet between high and the face and low in the face with the same swing from iron environment. That's the golf club. We've isolated the golf club. It's not the golfer. Like say, it's not your fault that you can't control your distance, But Score Golf can fix that for you, and we will make you as good as you are. How's that. They'll make you feel more confident and that is huge exactly that is huge. So the Ben Hogan I'm want to get back to Ben Hogan company for a second. In fort Worth, you've always been in. Victoria is in Texas.

35:19 Is closer to Houston, isn't it. Victoria is down close to the coast, which is you know, one of my loves beside golf is saltwater fishing, and Victoria is close to the coast. But when we took on the ben Hogan opportunity, there was no question in my mind that Ben Hogan had to go back to Fort Worth. That's where that company has always been. Just like moving the packers out of Green Bay, It's just not something you do, you know. And the ben Hogan Company is rerooting in Fort Worth. By this time next year, ben Hogan Irons will be earning a following all over the golf marketplace. I cannot wait. It's going to be exciting. I cannot wait. They'll be right there in fort Worth, Texas.

36:01 So how far is it between Victoria and Fort Worth? Your driver or you fly. I drive and get a lot of phone time in and so I have second residence. I'm sitting up in fort Worth and obviously a bunch of my time up there It's a wonderful city, by the way, and you know nicknamed cap Pound is the beginning of the West and wonderful city. Really neat place. Yeah, yeah, definitely. The best part of the Dallas Fort Worth area is Fort Worth. Yeah. West fort Worth is just a really neat place. A lot of great golf there, just great people there, some of the best little restaurants you've ever found in your life. And it's a really cool place.

36:43 Awesome, awesome, Well, congratulations again, Terry. Really happy for you and eagerly anticipating what happens in twenty fifteen with Ben Hogan. And when you guys are about to release something, I'm going to drag you back in here and let everybody know once again. So that would be great, rad We'll look forward to that opportunity and to spending more time on the show. Yeah, that would also be fun. It's always great to talk to you, Terry. Congratulations, best of luck and thanks again. Thank you, Fret. It's always a pleasure.