Coaching Black Women Leaders in White Nonprofit Spaces

00:00:04:08 

INTRO

Welcome to the Fun The People podcast. I'm your host, Rusty Stahl. I'm president and CEO of Fund The People where our mission is to maximize investment in America's nonprofit workforce. We give funders and nonprofits cutting edge ideas, research and tools to help drive equity effectiveness and endurance in the social sector. So let's start the show. 

00:00:37:05 

RUSTY

Hey, everybody, welcome to the Fund The People podcast, this is your host, Rusty Stahl. Thank you for your time today. We've got an excellent conversation today for you with Kelli King-Jackson. Kelli is an amazing leader in our field. She's a certified professional coach to Black women leading in white spaces. And in addition to coaching, she works with organizations truly committed to justice for Black women by providing philanthropic advising, facilitation and speaking services.

Kelli has over 25 years of experience in the nonprofit and philanthropic sectors. And today, we're going to talk about issues of race, gender, class, organizational culture, and how Black women in particular are experiencing some of those issues today in philanthropy and nonprofits, and how, as a coach, Kelli is helping people to navigate those issues. One of the interesting things in the conversation among many is we talk about generational dynamics between baby boomers, Gen Xers, Millennials and Gen Z and how those are playing out in our nonprofit and philanthropic community.

So you're definitely going to want to take a listen and you'll get a lot, I think, from Kelli's wisdom. So please enjoy my conversation with Kelli King-Jackson.

(MUSIC)

Kelli, I am thrilled to have you here on the Fund the People podcast. Thank you for making time and thank you for being here.

00:02:12:16 

KELLI

Thanks for having me.

00:02:14:02

RUSTY

Yeah, it's been a real pleasure to get to speak with you a couple of times when we originally connected and then in preparation for this conversation, so it feels very timely and also timeless, the work you're doing. So thanks for being here. You're a coach for women of color, Black women specifically, you know, working and leading in white spaces in philanthropy and nonprofits as well, I believe. So, I would love it if you could just share a bit of your story of what you've done in the field and how you became a coach and with this particular focus that you've developed.

00:02:51:08 

KELLI

Yeah, Thank you for the question. You know, I tell people I was minding my own business, working in a nonprofit. I worked for Children's Defense Fund for many years. So when you have Marian Wright Edelman as a boss, you kind of have a very good life, right? She just wants you to go out and do the work. And so I was really enjoying my work, I was doing health outreach here in Texas, helping school districts, identifying children who needed health insurance, and training school nurses and working in the community, and just loved what I was doing. And philanthropy being what it is, I get an invitation from a colleague to apply for a program officer job, and I was like, what is a program officer?

You know, a lot of nonprofits, we don't have money for grant writers all the time. And so, I had been able and told into the process but never really thought about what happened after you submitted a grant. Like that there were humans who were monitoring that experience, and so I was not going to apply. And my colleague was like, hey, we're going to close the application, you know, if you want to apply, you really should do that, like today. So I was kind of like, Oh my God, let me, let me get my application in, and get called into this interview and walked out like, Oh my God, this is what this industry is! Like, it just blew my mind. Like I was so stunned that there is a whole nother world of our sector that most nonprofits never get to interact with and really understand.

And so I applied and got this position as a program officer and very quickly realized I was going to need community if I was going to be able to stay. And so at the time, I was one of two Black program officers in Houston. And so meetings were a challenge for me, trying to find my voice was a challenge, learning to share my opinion in front of a living donor who, in my mind, has more money than anyone on the planet or anyone that I know, right? Were all things that I needed to work on, and so I was really fortunate to do the ABFE fellowship and find a community of Black grant makers and donors who care about making sure that we have the support we need to stay in the field. 

And the ABFE fellowship includes executive coaching. And, like I said, I had been in nonprofit at that point, ten or so years. I had never had a coach. I didn't even know that there are professionals who like, strategize on what job they want to end up with. I just applied for jobs that made sense for my budget or what was available where I was. I didn't even know that that was a possibility. And so I get assigned this coach and I think every session, either during the session or after I was crying because I was like, I thought I had my stuff together. Like, I thought I knew what I was working towards, why I was working toward it, and it was just all jumbled up in trying to serve the community, trying to make my mom proud, do whatever, and not really having the time or space to step back and say, what is it that I want and what am I building? What is the collective thing that I'm contributing to? And so my coach was transformative in helping me find my purpose and higher purpose in terms of what my work was influencing, but also how I was going to show up in this sector and be myself and be able to be okay.

00:06:20:13 

RUSTY

Wow, that's amazing, powerful, and major shout out to ABFE and your coach as well.

00:06:29:22 KELLI

Yes, absolutely. I mean, I can say even having my own practice, these are all things I thought, oh, maybe one day, but really didn't hold that this was going to be possible for me in the next ten years. And now that I'm looking back over my coaching notes, I'm like, Oh my goodness, I said maybe one day I want to be a coach, maybe one day I want to do X, Y or Z. And so having a coach also helped me start to put my plan together.

00:06:57:06 

RUSTY

Looking back on it, are you glad you left Children's Defense Fund and went into philanthropy?

00:07:04:17 

KELLI

Oh, that's tricky. That's a “yes…and.” You know, I've been out of that work for 12 years or so now and our state CHIP and children's Medicaid numbers are back the same. And so I think that what I miss about the work is that we had a coalition of folks who were pushing each other to do a really important work in our state and I feel like all of us kind of got comfortable, like we solved it. we got to like 90% enrollment, everything was trending in the right direction. And I feel like we took our eye off the ball, and the families are the ones who are suffering for that. And so I think the community leader in me wishes I still had a better pulse on what was happening in the community, but I also recognize that there are very specific reasons that I could be successful in philanthropy, and so I was able to make a difference in a different way. And I wouldn't have been able to do that at Children's Defense Fund.

00:08:02:24 

RUSTY

Yeah, I just had an informational interview with a young Black woman who was thinking of leaving the nonprofit where she's in the C-suite and thinking about going into philanthropy. And we were talking about all the trade offs and...

00:08:20:00 

KELLI

Yeah, I get those calls a lot. Yeah, yeah.

00:08:22:13 

RUSTY

Yeah, yeah, I'm sure you do. So, thank you for giving us the context for your work. I think anybody who's kind of paying attention to what's going on in the nonprofit world and philanthropy as well, has heard something about internal tensions and conflicts going on between executive level people and people in front line positions and more junior roles or other kinds of roles in organizations. We're hearing about generational conflict. We're hearing about issues of race and accusations of racism and white supremacy culture and other things sort of going around. You know, there's conflict around hybrid workplaces and all of these things, pay, and so many groups are going through one or more of those things at the same time. 

And within all of that, we have all these executive transitions happening. We have long standing white leaders leaving, we have people of color, women of color in particular, being appointed to executive director and CEO roles and sort of dealing with lots of incoming things in those roles. So, I was just curious about what you see happening with your clients or in the field, in Houston or around the country and if you have sort of a sense of, are you seeing the same thing that I'm hearing about or how people are dealing with all of this?

00:09:58:12 

KELLI

Well, Rusty, we're seeing a little bit of it all. I talk a lot to my peers about some of the common challenges, and it's very complicated right now. I think that across the world we are seeing a generational divide of like returning to what was. And I think young folks saying actually, what was wasn't working, and we saw in the pandemic we could do our work differently and so we want to keep that. And this constant tension of no, we want to go back to what we were in person, that's how we built rapport. To young people saying actually it was really uncomfortable for me and I really didn't feel like I could be my authentic self and I was always masking, it was making me exhausted and I can actually get more work done at home than I can in the office, right? And these folks aren't really able to hear each other right now because everyone is exhausted, right? 

So I was on a call talking about the neurological impact of what happened to us during the pandemic and I feel like some of what we see as cultures is folks who were energetically and mentally like depleted, having come out of that collective experience and then asked very quickly to ramp up to normal. Now, what we perceive as normal, we don't have the stamina for it, and we all are seeing that folks don't have the stamina, but no one yet is saying, okay, y'all, we can't go back to 2019, we have to reimagine who are we really as we come out of this. 

So, right now you can't get a therapist because folks are recognizing they are tapped out. So that's a good sign, I think, that people are seeking the help that they need. And I feel like as a coach, we're also seeing an uptick of people saying, okay, I want to work a different way. I don't want to be in back to back zoom, I don't want to be in back to back meetings, I want time to actually engage with my work, to engage with my constituents or my colleagues or my partners in a different way. And so I need a coach to help me to have the capacity to think through what could this be? 

So I do feel there is a lot of conflict that is happening because of these struggles that we're trying to hopefully move through to get to something different. So I think that is super epic.

We also often focus on conflict as interpersonal, but there are a lot of systems level problems that create the interpersonal conflict. And so we're seeing where organizations thought they had a system and they didn't, or they had a system but nobody was actually using it, right? Or every department was using their own system and this shared system had just kind of faded into black. And so inter-departmentally we don't know what each other is doing, right? We don't know that you're working on X grant and so this conference gets 8 proposals from the same organization, right? There's just that level of systems failures that we are also seeing organizations start to think about and start to work on, right? So finding folks who can help folks, maybe they can only afford Asana, but I can afford a consultant to come build out a work management system and training so we can figure out how we can communicate and keep each other informed. Like we're seeing some of those systems things also bubble up and folks trying to address them.

And I think the other one that gets talked about in the HR spaces is around feedback. Young folks want feedback. They want to be engaged in the places that they're working at and a lot of times, my generation as a Gen Xer, we weren't taught to give feedback, right? So I jokingly say, like, Baby Boomers aren’t big on praise, right? That's not their love language, right? When Mrs. Edelman said we're going to hold X event, she was like, thank you, but it wasn't like: Kelli, you are so amazing, you have a wonderful presence, you engage with the partners clearly… That was not the type of feedback that I received. But young people today want to know what about what I did was a good job, right? What about what I did did you actually appreciate? So I'm watching folks who are my generation really struggle with kind of this, how Baby Boomers communicate and how they socialize and how our lovely millennials and Gen Zers are entering into this workforce and having a completely different expectation. And the sandwich generation at home we talk about, we don't talk about the sandwich generation at work and what we're struggling with trying to navigate between the two. But also to stop the conflict that happens between those ends of the generational spectrum.

00:14:46:11 

RUSTY

Yeah, amen to that. That is really, really insightful, the way you put it about the sandwich generation at work, that really rings a chord or rings a bell for me. And then you add in the racial politics going on in the field as well and it's really loaded, and as you said, a very complicated situation. So curious, as a coach, how do you sort of help clients navigate and lead through these situations?

00:15:17:06 

KELLI

You know, I've had to accept that I, for one, needed more training in some spaces, right? So I tell people I'm not your person to help you work through your conflict, I have a list of folks who help you do that. But as a leadership coach, things like leadership assessments that can not demonize your staff but help you understand who's on your team, where do you have some like me bias, right? Where you have a lot of introverts only and you're not hearing the voices of other folks on the team, right? So how can we think about your recruitment, your interview process, and what you see as valuable contributions? How can we interrogate that a little bit so that you can balance out the energy and the skills on your team? But I think some of that work is super important. 

How do you bring teams together and not in this artificial way or this you have to be in the office on Wednesday way. But like how can you help teams make meaningful connections, right? So I love a good origin story, right? Like what brought you into this work? We're seeing more and more people need norms in their meetings, right? Like it used to only be when you went to a facilitated space. But I'm seeing more and more that teams are having some norms about how they will be together and how they will hold space and then meeting facilitation, right? So many of us learned online because we had to, but really didn't necessarily learn how to do it well. And so people just don't want to be on Zoom. And so if you're going to have to use a technology, getting the training or sharing resources for my client so they can actually increase their skills, so they can bring other things into the space and have more dynamic meetings, those are really coming up pretty high.

00:16:58:04 

RUSTY

Yeah, from what you just said about Zoom and also what you said previously about we can't go back to 2019, but people also don't want to be in back to back Zooms. So it's like we can't stay in where we were at the pandemic, we can't go back. And this thing of you have to come in Wednesday or, you know, people are having lots of different reactions to those things and how do we make real connections and build a real team, not just figure out a policy around being in the office versus being at home, makes a lot of sense to me. In that sense we're not out of the pandemic, we're still in the aftershocks. We're not in lockdown, but we still are dealing with the ramifications very much and I feel like people aren't thinking that way.

00:17:45:18 

KELLI

No, I mean, I live in a place that we have disasters, natural disasters all the time now. And so I think one thing that a lot of folks aren't socialized to is it takes 5 to 10 years for a community to recover from a disaster. And so I think it's very easy for me to think about we just came out of a disaster and the thought that we would all of a sudden in two years be recovered is insanity, right? And so, also helping people to have an understanding of what does it mean to do long term recovery work. Because I think there's a lot of overlap in what organizations should be thinking about. Like every organization now should have a continuing operation plan. They should have a plan that if something pops off tomorrow, here's how we're communicating, here's the platform we all agree to that everyone's been trained on, here's what we'll do if we have no power, right? Here's what we'll do if we can't contact a supervisor. When we start thinking in those ways, we also are building infrastructure. And I think that our infrastructure gaps were shown so brightly during the pandemic, and now we're trying to hide them again and it doesn't work. It is clear when we don't have those things. And so I think, you know, philanthropy, if they didn't take anything out of the pandemic times, I hope they took that infrastructure building is not optional, it's not a separate thing. If you are interested in your organization building a strong program, you must invest in infrastructure. Otherwise the program goes away, right? Because we don't have the things that we need to be in place to hold that work for the long term.

00:19:34:19 

RUSTY

Yeah, and you know, there's this attempt to roll back civil rights going on somewhat successfully in some cases with the affirmative action ruling and the Fearless Fund case and everyone in philanthropy seems to be talking about like this, you know, roll back and how are we going to respond and the era of DEI is over and all of these things. And it seemed like it was already hard, there were already like multiple demands on people of color, Black women in leadership roles before that started. And now, especially people in philanthropy are having, I feel, like to figure out their response and deal with their lawyers and all of those things. So, you know, curious, you know, how people are dealing with that kind of at leadership level in philanthropy. If you're seeing any of those.

00:20:32:14 

KELLI

I mean, I think new program staff and middle management is just frustrated, right, because they are in institutions that they know can take the “risk” to continue to do the work (and I use air quotes when I say risk), but they are so risk averse that instead of following what is still the law, they're already planning for something that hasn't even happened, right? So we can actually implement this person's plan without legally having to because we don't have the courage as a sector to stay the course. So I tell people all the time who I'm rocking with is the people who were trying to talk about this before 2020, because Black people, we knew this is only going to last a little bit. Most people I know said two years, a few say probably not that long. So we knew we would have to have a big movement in a short period of time because philanthropy was going to do what philanthropy does, and so I think that foundations who are coming out right now talking about their journey, talking about why they're still in this work, many of them had started this work before 2020, right? So it didn't feel like a mandatory workshop for them. They were actually invested in saying, we know our investments are not equitable, we know our procurement process isn’t equitable, we know our investment policies aren’t equitable, and we want to explore how we can do a better job and understand what that process is going to require of us.

Those are the foundations that should be getting all the shine right now. Those are the ones who should be listened to and invited into conversation about what made you know, in 2015 that this was a priority, right? And most of them are going to say we weren't actually moving the needle, right? And that doesn't mean that white folks can't lead, don't work, right? I'm not saying that at all. I'm just saying you can't only fund or majority fund white organizations to solve systems level and institutional and structure level issues in our communities. We have to be at the table to say, here's how we undo some of this, and these are the ideas that we want to put forward about solutions.

00:22:44:07 

So I think that this is what is frustrating the frontline and the middle management folks because they're still close enough to being in the community working at a nonprofit to feel hopeful when they get into philanthropy. They’re like, oh my God, I'm going to finally be in a position to make a difference, to get the money out faster, to remove the barriers… And then they get in and they realize, Oh, I need to power map this organization, because that's not actually how the money moves, right? The money moves off relationship and our board member went to a cocktail party and heard about this other foundation of what they're doing, and now they're asking all these questions, right? 

So now they're starting to see how things actually work and so my job is to help people power map, to understand what's happening in their institutions so they're not just always bumping themselves up against a wall. But they can actually develop a strategy to do the deep work that they actually signed up to do. I think we have to be able to support our leaders to figure out if we're going to stay, here's how we get the work done. And I think folks are grappling with that right now. Do we use the words or do we not use the words? Right? What my baby boomers will say is we've been doing the work, we just couldn't talk about it. Young people, they're not about that, they're like, I want to do the work and I want to shout it, I want to write an op ed about it, I want it to be on my LinkedIn, it's going to be in the newsletter, right? And so I think that that is a grappling of what is the importance of talking about the work and how we want to talk about the work, because quite frankly, donors are taking their money back, right?

I was just working as a sub on a project. Thankfully I wasn’t the lead, I was just a coach on a larger effort and those funders completely walked away from the project, right? And so there's a whole team of folks who are leading an important work who just lost their job. And so when we think about who was also impacted by the retreatment and the role back, it is largely leaders of color. And so what are we doing with these leaders who we said come in and lead this amazing work and now we're saying we're not going to do it. We have to make them whole, we have to be accountable for… we said we are ready for something, maybe we actually weren't ready for that. As organizations, if we can tell the truth about that, I think that it supports our leaders to sit with the disappointment and then figure out what they want to do next. But I think as a sector, we're going to have to really be helping folks find jobs, helping give them interviews, because I don't know about your grocery bill, but my grocery bill has not gone down and it's going to be really hard for folks losing roles that they thought were going to help them make a really big difference that they're now no longer able to do.

00:25:33:16 

RUSTY

Yeah, that's true. That's the reality. So, one thing you said to me during our prep call has just been in my head rattling around and I wanted to ask you about it. So, you said something like, you know, philanthropy is such a white space, even when people of color are in it or leading in it, it's still white. And I was curious if I got that right, so correct me if I kind of phrased it poorly, and if you could say more about what you meant and what you were thinking.

00:26:07:23 

KELLI

I mean, our structures are still very corporate, right? Like I'm even finding some of the most progressive intermediaries, they're still connected to whoever their fiscal sponsor is and it's still going to take them a month, at least, to get a check out the door. Like the structure and the bureaucracy that we put in place, that we know never served community well, are deeply embedded in our institutions.

The same way they talk about risk, you know, what a risky investment or grant is. I used to tell people if my grant is not “successful” I'm not going to lose my job. So the risk is not mine as the program officer, the risk is the community who is trying to figure out how to do this work. The risk is them not being successful and having to tell us the things they grapple with and trust that I as a program officer can make my board understand that this is still worthy of investment, we need to stick with it, right? So I think some of that is what kind of comes to mind. 

Also, culturally it’s white, right? I never drank so much sparkling water in my life before I worked in philanthropy and I say that facetiously, but when I got home in the pandemic and was trying to buy Topo Chico every week (which is our preferred sparkling water in Texas), I was like, I can't afford this, this is not in my budget, right? So even the ways we feed each other, open bars at conferences, the swag that we get, where we have our conferences, the money we pay speakers to come to speak to us at our, you know, chicken dinner conferences are things that just are so above most of the class level of the folks we're hiring as program staff, right? When I went to my first luncheon, I didn't know why there were so many forks on the table. No one told me that when we sit down and they serve you, you don't eat until everyone has been served. If you didn't have a lot of food growing up, that might not have been your practice, right? Your practice might have been when someone puts a plate in front of you, you need to eat it, right? 

And so, I think even culturally, I realized I was having my phone under the table looking at this picture and so I can memorize all the different settings, right? Just little things like that put you in spaces that may not be your cultural experience, right? And so when you are of the Black elite, you are still coming into a level of wealth that you may not have ever experienced before. And my situation was unique in that I had a living donor. But even, you know, whether your donor’s been dead for 100 years or five, it is still culturally a very white, elite space and we don't talk about that and what that feels like for our staff to come into. 

I came into my office and there were antiques that I thought were horrible and so I had to ask immediately, do I have to have this in my office? And then I put something bright and colorful on the wall, right? So from the time I walked into my office setting, I was already going against the cultural norms of where I was. And if I wasn't confident in that, I would have sat with that ugly piece of art on my desk because everyone else did, right? And so you have to have the confidence to ask for what you need or what you want. And that can be really tricky when you're in environments that are not familiar to you.

00:29:51:22 

RUSTY

That is so true, the class dimension is crazy and cultural. I had, you know, some similar experiences, even as a white person. I worked at the Ford Foundation as a young person and going there, some of the crazy art on the wall or other norms… Because setting aside the donors for a second, the people who had worked in that place and run that place from the fifties, you know, through when I got there, it had been changing, but it really came out of like Harvard and Yale white men, and the culture had evolved from that place. And so it was like walking into a different world.

00:30:30:15 

KELLI

It is, yeah, absolutely.

00:30:32:17 

RUSTY

Yeah.

00:30:33:19 

KELLI

If I could just add this, I think I'm watching Black women of my age (I just turned 50 this year) who are also grappling with some of the just white norms of professionalism that we bought into, that maybe I value as an individual, but it doesn't have to set the standard for everyone else, right? So you may want to dress, which are nice, you know, in an iron blouse and scarf and all the things and your staff want to wear jeans. That doesn't mean that they can't do a great job at their work, right? And so I think that some of us are also in this constant state of unlearning things that we were told signaled excellence and signaled that we proved that we could do the job and that we could fit in and that we were deserving. And a lot of times I'm finding leaders are grappling with that, but they don't want to say that to the younger folks on their teams because it makes us not look perfect, like we're not woke enough, we don't have it all together. But I think that if we could come show ourselves with humility to say, you know what, I've heard several of you give the feedback that this dress code it actually is not helpful and it's not really rooted in anything that's real, is not rooted in how you do your work, who you do your work with, and so I'm going to spend some time thinking about this, and I would love to talk to the talent committee to get some feedback, right? Like, that level of humility would go a long way. But I think a lot of us are embarrassed and are struggling on how to show that to our teams. And so I hope if we can do more unlearning, I think Gen-Xers in particular, we have an opportunity to really help push culture change right now and I hope that we will really step into that opportunity.

00:32:25:17 

RUSTY

Yeah, as you're talking I'm thinking about how some of my mentors early on were even Greatest Generation, you know? So it's not just that we learn from Boomers, but we also experienced Greatest Generation folks who came from such a different place, you know, and experienced so many different things: the Great Depression, the wars, and just really came out of a different kind of mindset of how you behave, how you dress, how you act toward people and all of those things, and those really had an imprint on me as well. I am, I guess, younger Gen-X, I'm 48, so I'm not really that young anymore, but on the younger end of Gen X, so yeah, I'm empathizing with a lot of what you're saying. So thinking about all this, the sandwich generation at work, all the things we've talked about today, if you had to put a bumper sticker out there for donors, for the philanthropic community, executives, any thoughts on what a bumper sticker might be? What would your key message be to the field?

00:33:28:23 

KELLI

We did it before, we could do it again. We changed rapidly in the pandemic and it was for the better in a lot of ways, right? Doesn't mean it wasn't perfect or we didn't learn some hard lessons, but we know that we can change rapidly and I think to go back to saying we need more time to figure it out is a cop out.

We did it before, we could do it again. If our grantees are saying to us, you know, how you worked with us in the pandemic, like we need you to work with us for the next 20 years, like we need you to stick with it. I think we need to listen and be responsive, right? We changed how we gave out the volume of money we gave out before. We know we made that money back as soon as we wrote those checks. 

We did it before we could do it again. We've had organizational culture change, right? We've had trends where we've seen the workplace change, but we've done it before and we can do it again. And so I really hope that that is a takeaway for folks that we make up the systems and the processes that our organizations are rooted in, and we have the power to change them.

00:34:35:13

RUSTY

Terrific, thank you. As we wrap up here, anything you want to share in terms of activities, publications or anything else you have going on?

00:34:45:05 

KELLI

Yes, it's a lot happening with my practice this year, so I'm really excited about a cohort for BIWOC Southern Leaders (Black, indigenous, women of color who are leading in the South) where we're meeting monthly, working on our leadership and building community. Super excited about that. 

And then I also have a group for Black women and femmes in philanthropy, where we can do some skill building, some strategizing and some coaching in our time together. So I'm very excited about that. 

And then a workbook I'm about to launch at the top of the next quarter where I will be talking about new managers, right? So I'm seeing a lot about folks who were promoted because they were a great leader and never given the support on how to be a manager, right? And the things that they need to figure out what type of manager they want to be, and how they can build the teams that their organizations need. So, excited to just continue to contribute and learn from my clients and other coaches and be able to offer back those learnings to help others in their leadership journey.

00:35:48:21 

RUSTY

That all sounds incredible! I'm glad you mentioned all those things you have going on. Where do you hang out online that people can find you, engage with you and give us your website as well?

00:36:00:13 

KELLI

Yes. So I am a LinkedIn girl, so you can find me on LinkedIn most days, but I'm really enjoying the conversations actually that are happening there right now. And my website is www.iamkelli.com and you can learn more about me and my work and I'm always happy to chat with folks about this specific topic.

00:36:25:19 

RUSTY

Terrific. All right, so that website again iamkelli.com check it out. There's even a video of Kelli talking up there so you got to check out her site, connect with her on LinkedIn. And thank you so much for being here with us today at the Fund the People podcast Kelli, this was really great and I wish you all the best, and your clients as well, and all the folks struggling with these leadership and organizational challenges. I think we're lucky to have you in the field and we need more people supporting folks through these issues and through this time. So thank you so much.

00:37:13:06 

RUSTY

It is my pleasure. Thanks for having me. It's good to be here.

00:37:17:19 

RUSTY

Thanks for joining us here on the Fund the People podcast. I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Kelli King-Jackson. She certainly gave me a lot to think about and I hope all of us are considering her message: we've done it before, we can do it again. Thanks for listening to the Fund the People podcast. We've got a lot more great guests coming up and conversations, so stick with us and I'll talk to you soon right here on your Fund The People podcast. 

OUTRO

Thanks for listening to Fund the People podcast, visit fundthepeople.org and click on podcast to find a transcript for this and other episodes and all the links discussed in the episode. If you enjoyed this episode, we really appreciate a five star rating and a quick review if possible, on Apple Podcasts. It helps more people to find the show. Thank you for driving change in our communities. Remember to keep your tank full, take care of yourself and take care of one another.