A Model for Systematically Improving Nonprofit Workplaces

00:00:04:08 

INTRO

Welcome to the Fund The People podcast. I'm your host, Rusty Stahl. I'm president and CEO of Fund The People where our mission is to maximize investment in America's nonprofit workforce. We give funders and nonprofits cutting edge ideas, research and tools to help drive equity effectiveness and endurance in the social sector. So let's start the show. 

00:00:37:14

RUSTY

Well, thank you for joining us here on the FTP pod. We've got another amazing colleague to introduce to you today. On this episode, you'll hear the lessons that philanthropy can learn about investing in nonprofit workers from venture capital of all places. And you'll get a framework for how nonprofits can create a work environment that allows their staff to thrive. 

Our guest today is Arum Lee Lansel, founder and principal consultant at ALL-in 4 Impact. She worked in nonprofits and international development as a program leader. Then she worked as a grant maker in the Organizational Effectiveness program at the Packard Foundation. Then she was trained as an H.R. leader in a top tier venture capital firm, and she led people strategy, partnering with business leaders to make equity centered H.R. decisions. Arum left the venture capital world and returned to the social sector because she wanted to put her skills toward a greater mission, thank you for doing that. 

Her firm ALL-in 4 Impact partners with mission driven organizations and leaders to maximize impact. She wants every nonprofit to be a highly effective and joyful workplace by implementing great people practices and clear strategy. Arum Lee Lansel, Welcome to the Fund The People podcast.

00:02:02:14 

ARUM

Thank you. I am a huge fan of Fund the People, I always have been, and so that's why I'm so excited to be here and talking with you, Rusty. So, thank you.

00:02:12:09 

RUSTY

Thank you so much. That's very kind and it's nice to connect with people who are so aligned. And so I was glad to connect with you and your work and excited to have you here. Tell folks a little bit about what got you started. What motivated your nonprofit career in the beginning?

00:02:32:23

ARUM

Yeah, so actually I started off as a fashion design major of all things at Cornell, as an undergrad student. I have this whole, like, creative side of me, which is why I wanted to be a fashion designer, which I do find that having that creative streak comes in handy even in a career in the nonprofit sector. But, you know, during college, I also had this kind of idealistic notion, I guess, that many young people have, it’s like I want to help people, I want to give back to the world. 

And the reason for that is because actually I was the first generation in my family to attend college and my parents and I and my sister, we immigrated to the U.S. when I was three years old, so I was born in South Korea. And my parents, they still to this day, they don't speak much English. They were not home very much when I was growing up because they were just working all the time. They ran a small shoe repair store. And so looking back at my childhood, I really had no language back then for understanding things like privilege and lack of privilege and what that all means. But now as a parent, I see all the time with my kids the ways that having two college educated, English speaking parents who attend like all your school events and help you with homework. Like that gives you all the advantages in the world. And I didn't have any of those things growing up. 

But I always knew that my parents loved me and they worked really hard and all the time so that my sister and I could have more choices in life than they did and have the opportunity to go to college and do all the things. And so I began to realize as an adult that somehow, like all of that experience, it really inspired me towards wanting to work for more justice, like creating more balance in the world between those with access to resources and those who don't. That is really what motivated me to, like, start my career in like, how do I give back? Like, how do I make the world a better place? 

00:04:28:14

RUSTY

Wow. It's truly the American story and dream there, in terms of the immigrant experience. So, thankful to have you on and thank you for sharing that story. And I know as we go here, we're going to come back to what I think may be a theme in this episode of working hard and having room to breathe or, you know, downtime and time with your loved ones and taking care of yourself. Yeah, so thanks for sharing that. Tell us about this journey from fashion to, you know, all these other spaces that you've been in. Tell us a little bit about the arc of your career, if you will.

00:05:09:21 

ARUM

Yeah, I did actually finish out my undergrad degree in fashion design, but then I went to grad school for International Development because that was where I saw like, okay, this is one way that I can kind of give back to the world. And so I got my Master's in international development. I started out my career working directly in nonprofit. I actually worked on the H.R. team at a large, growing nonprofit. And then after that, I worked at a USAID contractor. So I was managing multi-million dollar development projects that were funded by USAID in all of these post-conflict countries, because that was what the program that I was in was focused on. And I figured out that that was a great job to have. But then I had my kids during that time, and at the time I was managing projects in Democratic Republic of Congo and in Iraq and in the West Bank and being asked to travel to these places all the time. And I just didn't want to do that anymore, especially after my second child was born, my daughter. And so that's when after being there for five plus years, I decided to like, look for something else.

And that's when I found philanthropy. I started working at the Packard Foundation and eventually ended up on their Organizational Effectiveness team. That grant making program at the time was really around providing capacity, strengthening grants for grantee partners of the foundation. And I was so passionate about that work because I've always held a firm belief that, you know, internal organizational health and the wellbeing of the people in the organization is what makes an organization impactful and allows their programs to really flourish. And so at the Packard Foundation, I had a role where I was doing kind of both program operations and a program officer aspects of my role within the Organizational Effectiveness Team. I worked with a lot of nonprofits during that time on designing capacity strengthening projects. 

I was at Packard Foundation for around five years and I started to pick my head up around that time and think like, okay, you know, what do I want to do next? And it was just kind of by luck or just a timing that at that time a recruiter contacted me through LinkedIn, like just randomly found me and they were a recruiter for a venture capital firm. And at first when they contacted me, I almost deleted the email right away because I was like, why would I go work at a venture capital firm? Like my career had always been in the social sector, that's where I wanted to be. But they caught me at a moment in my life where I was really open to exploring other things. And so I said, okay, I will take the call. And that led to another call, another call, and I really just loved all the conversations I had. And I also was intrigued because venture capital has this very interesting parallel to philanthropy. In both cases, you're looking for organizations out there that are having the most impact in order to invest in them. And so I thought, you know, this could be an interesting next step. I certainly can learn a lot working in a venture capital firm. 

And the role that they were recruiting me for was on the H.R. team, like building out the H.R. function for this growing firm. I ended up working at General Catalyst, which is a top tier venture capital firm. They have like over 40 billion in assets under management. And so I really helped oversee, like developing for the first time their performance management system, learning and development DEI, like advising leaders on all aspects of people processes and challenges. And I loved the work, but I felt like I was creating this wonderful work environment for the people, but to what end, right? Like to help a great firm, a venture capital firm. But I really wanted to take those skills and go back to the nonprofit sector. And so that's why I am now back in the nonprofit sector but as a consultant working on these issues of just, you know, creating a better workplace for nonprofits.

00:09:08:09 

RUSTY

Fantastic, and when did your consulting practice get started?

00:09:12:01 

ARUM

I started in June of 2024. So at the time of this recording, just about five or six months ago.

00:09:18:18

RUSTY

Okay. All right. Awesome. Well, thank you for taking us through your interesting journey. It sounds like you were both strategic and flexible and responsive as your interests evolved and you were open to things that you hadn't expected. And then you were thinking about your own family and needs. So it's really interesting to hear that, and…

00:09:38:22 

ARUM

And I never could have predicted that path of all these, like, you know, different places. But I do think that that all kind of has helped me shape the perspective, you know, that I can bring into this sector now.

00:09:50:13 

RUSTY

Right. We are also having Jamaica Maxwell from the Packard Foundation on the show this season, so folks can go find the episode with Jamaica Maxwell, who runs what was the Organizational Effectiveness program and is now under a different title around civil society and leadership at the Packard Foundation. So, I just wanted to put in a plug for that.

00:10:13:04 

ARUM

And Jamaica is a good friend and an amazing human, so I highly recommend listening to her episode.

00:10:18:20 

RUSTY

Yeah, I know. It was a terrific interview. She has an amazing perspective. So speaking of perspective, with your perspective, you know, having worked both in philanthropic grantmaking and venture capital, sort of these two parallel funding universes, what do you see as lessons that philanthropy could learn from the venture capital world?

00:10:44:07 

ARUM

I think that the biggest lesson is that there's no question about investing in talent for a venture capital firm, like investing in the talent of their portfolio companies is like, of course you're going to do that because their success is your success. And so that's, you know, one of the interesting observations that I had is that the VC firm is only as successful as the companies that they fund. And so as a funder, if you take that mindset, then of course, like your number one goal is going to be, you know, how can you strengthen those organizations so that they can do the best work possible? And that success largely depends on the people. Like that's true in for profit tech companies, and it's true in nonprofits too, that like the talent, the people, are what is going to allow an organization to be able to really grow and succeed or not.

Secondly, related to that, is like really using talent as your differentiator as a funder. So what I mean by that is in the VC world, the top venture capital firms have in-house talent teams whose only job is to support the portfolio companies that they fund in talent recruiting and just like H.R. support, any kind of like human capital related support. So where I worked at General Catalyst, we had a talent team. They would help identify like stellar leaders to fill important executive positions in the companies they funded, as well as board positions. They also provided a bunch of resources on H.R. best practices, DEI, compensation planning, like any of those, like kind of human capital related needs. And this is pretty common in the top VC firms because they're using that investment in talent as, like I said, their differentiator of how they can be more successful.

So I think that just, you know, being able to apply that thinking for foundations to like really shift their mindset about like why they exist and what they're trying to do is, you know, again, if you take that mindset that we are only as successful as the success of our grantee partners, then, you know, you want to do everything you can to be able to have either expertise on staff or through your grants for nonprofits to be able to hire expertise in order to build capacity to strengthen their talent, to find great talent and really be able to support the organizations in that way as a funder.

And lastly, one more thing, is that this concept of the power dynamics in a VC firm compared to in the philanthropy world. Because, you know, we talk all the time in this sector about the power dynamics, you know, between grantees and funders and how can we reduce that in the trust space relationships and all of that. Those are really important conversations. But what I think is really interesting in VC is that even though you have the same like funder and funded organization relationship, the power dynamics are actually somewhat flipped around because a lot of VCs, they tell me that their job is more like being a salesperson because they're trying to convince the best startup company's founders to accept their money versus going with another venture capital firm. And so that's so interesting, because then it's like them saying, hey, we need you. Like we, the funder, need you to partner with us. And they have to convince those organizations that they want to fund that they are a really trusted partner that cares about that organization's success. 

And so again, like, you know, being able to apply some of that back into philanthropy, like seeing that as like actually a foundation again, is only as good as the nonprofits that they fund. And so they're out there really trying to win the relationship, I guess, with the nonprofits that are doing the most impactful work. And, you know, it would be laughable in the VC context to have like restrictions on the funding. Like you would never give funding as a VC and say, hey, you can only use this to like, build out your product, you cannot use this to hire more like communication staff or whatever it is. Like, you know, anything that's considered overhead, of course that would not work at all in the VC context, and I wish that we could have some of that mentality in philanthropy too.

00:15:03:17 

RUSTY

Yeah, well, I wanted you to come on the show to say some of these very things because one of the things that when I heard you telling me in our initial conversations about how venture philanthropy focuses on their leadership and staffing in the companies that they support, that that's such a big primary focus. And I think we were talking on LinkedIn or in one of our first calls, it just frustrates me that when I came into the field, you know, in the early 2000s, there was this whole push around what was called venture philanthropy or new philanthropy or strategic philanthropy, and they were trying to import these venture capital and business ideas into philanthropy, but they sort of largely missed, largely lost in translation, this emphasis on investing in grantee staff people. Like they wanted the outcome, the outputs, the KPIs and the data and the yada yada… But they didn't, you know, focus on the bedrock underneath all of that hoo ha, which is investing in the people actually helps the venture capitalists to support companies that can succeed and make money, you know, for themselves and for the venture capitalists. 

So, it's like somehow the blind spot of philanthropy about the importance of nonprofit people to stay on, even through trying to do the venture philanthropy thing. And now that the field has kind of swung the pendulum over to, you know, things like trust based philanthropy, which is very different, unfortunately even with trust based philanthropy as a framework, which is great, it still has not strongly enough, in my mind, emphasized the importance of investing in staff of grantee organizations. So I feel like I'm glad you're here to hit home this point.

00:16:59:13

ARUM

Yes, in both cases, that part is still missing. And I'm not one that thinks that you can take everything from VC and just like apply it over to philanthropy. So I wouldn't be an advocate for saying like, okay, we should all kind of operate in this venture philanthropy type of model. But I think what you say is exactly true, is that there are pieces of it that are really important that we can incorporate, even with trust based philanthropy, which I do think is, you know, the right strategy. But it is trust based philanthropy and also like this recognition of investing in talent, of realizing that like the success of the nonprofit is partly the responsibility of the foundation, that's why they should be investing in talent in order to make more impact and do it in a way that's very trust based and very like, you know, understanding of what the nonprofit needs and asking them and all of those things.

00:17:49:20

RUSTY

Yeah, thank you for that. So now that you have this, you gain this perspective as a funder in both philanthropic foundation world and venture capital world. And it seems like, you know, I don't know, but it seems like the venture capital world might be very cushy and like a nice place to be. So, what made you come back to work with nonprofits from these two really privileged and pretty sustainable and comfortable kinds of roles?

00:18:20:01

ARUM

Yes. Well, let me just say that both in philanthropy and in VC, like, you're kind of at the top, like you're in that position where, like, everybody wants to be your friend and like, wants to, like, compliment you and all of those things. And, you know, like, let's just name it because it's true, and anyone who works at a foundation feels this at some level, right? Like everybody thinks that you're like the smartest person in the room. Like, people joke about that all the time for foundation staff, so. 

But for me, I was very specific that I wanted to come back to the nonprofit sector. I came back as a consultant, but I wanted to consult primarily with nonprofits and primarily with small nonprofits. Instead of going back into a foundation job or like being a foundation consultant or something like that. And the reason that was a very intentional decision is because I'm on the board of two nonprofits. I've worked with a lot of nonprofits, and I see all the time this juxtaposition of the reality that I see my nonprofit friends living in versus the reality of working in a foundation. 

And so what I mean by that is that in a lot of smaller nonprofits, especially ones that are under-resourced, it feels like it's always survival mode, you know, every day it's the stress of fundraising. It's like the multiple overwhelming demands without having the resources to do it all. This is all tied to, you know, burnout crisis in the sector, which we talk about all the time. And I've really come to see the problem as like there's no space to breathe, you know, for most nonprofit leaders and staff, like space to just pause and think and reflect and innovate.

And I think that in foundations, even though foundation staff also can get burned out, also are very, very busy and can be overwhelmed with work, there is an ability to have space or at least to create the space to be able to breathe when you need it, to innovate, to dream, right? Like you can create that space in a foundation. But sometimes with nonprofits, like that's just not possible because you just don't have the resources to do it. And I've also come to kind of feel that having this space to breathe, it's a real privilege. And I feel like it's a privilege that's exploited by people who have wealth and denied to those without. 

And so that's why I feel like, you know, we under-resource nonprofits, like they're denied that opportunity because funders and donors are not giving enough to fund room for that, for like extra capacity, right? To be able to really innovate and think about things in a different way. So that's why I choose to work with nonprofits, especially smaller nonprofits, because I feel like there's so much more opportunity there for helping create to the extent possible, right? Like helping to create at least a culture that, you know, can get employees to thrive more and just to be able to like, help in whatever way I can, because I feel like the need is larger there.

00:21:30:11 

RUSTY

Yeah, it's very interesting. I hadn't really thought of it in the way that you lay it out there about the privilege of space to breathe. But it brings home to me why things like the Durfee Foundation's sabbatical program and their other awards that give nonprofit leaders: time, the money to have the time and the incentive and the permission to take that time to dream and think and rest. And so the way you've framed this makes it all make so much more sense for me. Like why something like that it's not just about rest or getting away from the day to day, it's also this equalizing factor of giving people some of that space to breathe and and think and not just be in the endless cycle of work.

00:22:21:24

ARUM

Yeah, there are so many foundations that are like models for doing this and for caring about their teams and for the nonprofit staff and funding things like that, which is amazing. I just wish that there was so much more of that, right? It's so tiny compared to the vast need.

00:22:37:11 

RUSTY

That's right. Yeah. It's a small number that have modeled that, I think, for the field and that I think I won't speak for them, but I know that some of them are frustrated that more people haven't, other funders haven't sort of followed suit. And on that note, actually, we're going to talk about sort of your message to nonprofits. But I'm curious, while we're talking about funders, what would your message be to funders who are listening to this? By listening, they're concerned about the nonprofit workforce and what's going on. So what would your message be to them about what they can do?

00:23:16:07 

ARUM

Yeah, my message would definitely be like, care about the organizational health and the health and wellbeing of the people of the organizations that you fund. Like, not only care because you're like a good human and caring person, but also care because that's how you're going to maximize your impact. So whatever program area that the foundation is wanting to make impact in, their dollars will go further if they actually support and strengthen the people within the organizations that they fund, because people is what makes the work happen. It's what makes the impact. 

And so, ways that you can do that, I mean, certainly giving general operating support grants is really good, but I also really am a big fan of, Rusty, your idea about these staff operating grants, like grants that are specific to use this money to strengthen your people. In a little bit, I'll get to like all the different ways a nonprofit can do that, but basically that the money is earmarked for that, I think that's wonderful. So if foundations are able to carve out some of their budget for that, do it as a way of thinking, okay, this is actually my differentiator, this is how this foundation is going to go further in the impact that we're trying to make.

00:24:31:23

RUSTY

Awesome. We will be sharing that concept of staff operating support grants on this show. But yes, the concept is staff operating support or S.O.S. grants that are restricted for investments in staff, but unrestricted within that so that there's flexibility and responsiveness and  if change is needed in what that means or looks like specifically, great. So the idea is to combine the value of unrestricted with the value of putting some incentives and emphasis around it so that nonprofit leaders who want to do this have the political cover with their boards, have the incentive structure and the countability structure of their grants with their funders to invest in themselves and the whole team. Yeah, Thank you for mentioning that. 

All right. So now let's get into what nonprofits can do. So, you've been consulting directly to nonprofits and obviously you've been thinking about this even a lot further back than your current consulting practice, ALL-in 4 Impact. Talk about what your message is for nonprofits, how can they, whether they've got a big grant to do it or not from their funders, how can they invest in their staff?

00:25:56:19 

ARUM

Yeah, so I spent a lot of time thinking about this because I wanted to be really practical and easy because we already talked about, you know, nonprofit staff are often really busy, you know, overwhelmed, like always having to think about fundraising and all of the things and juggling like all of the balls in the air. And so that's why I created what I call the Thrive model, because I just wanted a practical way for busy nonprofit leaders to be able to just visualize like, okay, when you say invest in my staff, like when you say, like, care about employee wellbeing, how do I do that? Like, what does that mean and where do I start? 

And so that's why I'm going to just walk through this Thrive model that I created. And so I'll just describe it that, you know, think of it as a pyramid, you know, kind of like Maslow's hierarchy of needs, right? Your roadmap of how you're going to get to thrive is simply: stabilize, support and sustain. So I'm going to go through each of those. 

So at your bottom level is your stabilize level. So these are the things like people related compliance and organizational basics that you just need to have in place to set a strong foundation. Like if you don't know where to start, let's just start here at the bottom. Let's just go through like, do you have some basics in place and some legally required things in place? So things like, you know, like are you offering benefits? Are people getting paid on time? If they qualify for overtime like, are they receiving that? Do you have a basic org structure so that people know what their job is and how they fit into what the organization is trying to do? Are there basic policies written down in an employee handbook so people know how much leave they have and what the work hours are. So those are some of the things that are just on the stabilize level, like let's start there, let's look at these specific things that I mentioned and get that all in place to set a strong foundation. 

After that, okay, let's move to the second level, which is support. So support is where you're going to start to create the conditions for people to be able to do their best work. So these are things like compensation planning, like, okay, do you actually have a plan for how you're going to give increases every year, and what you're paying people, and is it fair, you know, what you're paying people compared to the work that they're doing. Actually being able to, giving useful performance feedback, you know, do you have a process for doing that? Are your managers trained and know what is expected of them as managers, what they need to be doing as part of their time to best support their teams? Do you have a good process for recruiting the best talent to your team and starting them off really strong with a good onboarding process? So these are kind of the next level things that you want to think about that are all about, you know, allowing people to do their best work.

And then the third level is sustain. So this is where you're really looking at, okay, how can I make sure that this team and the organization can thrive for the long run and really create a culture that supports employees, that supports innovation, that supports employee wellbeing. So these are things like employee engagement. So that means making sure that the team's really excited and connected to the mission, that they feel connected to the team, that they have a teamwork mentality. Continuous improvement, so you know, is there a culture that people can constantly be learning and improving and be challenged. Leadership development for both your current leaders, but also your next generation of leaders. Like what are you doing now to give skills and coaching and mentorship to that next generation of leaders. 

So all of that is saying like, you need to do all of these things to eventually get to thrive. It's not an overnight thing, this is like a journey, right? It's going to take some time. But you cannot do it all at once, it will be very overwhelming. Staff, again, are probably already very busy and can't handle like, you know, new processes, you know, coming at them all at once. That's why this is kind of laid out to be like a roadmap, to be like, start here, start at one, like, let's get these things in place, let's get the basics in place. That might take a few months to do that. After that, okay, let's move on to the second tier, let's get these next things in place. And ultimately, the goal is creating an environment where everyone can thrive, then they have that space. 

If you do all of these things and it'll take time to get there, then you'll be able to create some space for people to innovate. Create a culture where people can really like, grow and learn and think. And that's how you get to more impact. To me, that's the ultimate goal. Like the ultimate goal is not only for employees to thrive, but also because of that thriving, you're now able to do that much more in your mission towards the work that you're trying to do externally. And that's why funders should fund it, too, by the way, because that's what all of this is being oriented toward.

00:30:53:19 

RUSTY

Right, your firm is called ALL-in 4 Impact, so the ultimate aim here that I think all of us share, the funders, the nonprofits, everyone is in it for the mission, for, you know, helping young people or helping old people, addressing climate change, all of our missions, all of our work. But it's a question of how do we get there? And I think what you're hitting on over and over again is that the logic model of our sector has just been missing this piece. Like we all talk about impact outcomes, outputs, capacity, strategy, but we don't go all the way back to the people who create the strategy, create the capacity and implement the, you know, the strategy and the work. So it feels like we never get back to that essential bedrock. We always are out talking about outcomes, outputs and all stuff in a disembodied way, as if there's some magical machine doing those things, not a bunch of humans.

00:32:05:10 

ARUM

Exactly, a lot of donors like they only care about the programs, they don't want to see their dollars go to overhead and to like funding staff positions and stuff like that. It's like, none of that external stuff is going to happen if you have no team, if you have no people or you have people, but they're so burned out and have such a like, you know, disorganized culture that they can't get any of their work done. All of that is what drives it and so that's why I'm constantly trying to push that message for donors and funders to hear, as well, that like if you really want to make a difference in climate change and, you know, reproductive health care and whatever, whatever that you're funding, you have to invest in the people who are doing it.

00:32:46:23 

RUSTY

Yeah. So with this Thrive model, I love it, stabilize, support, sustain. It's a pyramid. Start with the basics, then add in the sort of next tier and then once you've put food and shelter and water in place, then you can start helping people and organizations to self-actualize to get to that level of improved engagement, sort of really leadership level work, you know, innovation and really the highest level of performance that we all want and need to have for our organizations.

So I guess my follow up question to this is, if I'm an ED listening at a small or mid-sized nonprofit that doesn't have an H.R. person in place at all. So I'm the ED, but I'm also the one doing hiring, right? Like maybe someone else manages payroll, hopefully. How do I do the stabilization stage? Like, what tactics could I use to sort of start the basics of this journey?

00:33:55:20

ARUM

Well, it helps if you have an expert who can kind of walk you through it. I mean, certainly there's free resources out there. So let's take employee handbook for an example, you know, like there are a lot of free resources that you can find online for that, you know, I'm happy to share with people too, if you don't have any budget at all. But if you do have some budget, I think that like hiring somebody who can help you kind of get some of these things in place, doesn’t have to be forever, right? It could just be for like a month or two, like, hey, let's just work to like, make sure that I have all of my basics in place, like that stabilized layer. 

For my organization, ALL-in 4 Impact, the whole thing is designed around that exact situation of smaller nonprofits that don't have a full time H.R. staff leader. That's the exact scenario that we're trying to support on, is to say in that case, like there's a lot of different things that are cost effective that you can just say like, hey, just come help us like build out the roadmap of like what to do next and provide the resources, maybe some free tools and templates and stuff like that.

Like we can just do that over a month's time and just set you off on the right path. And that's like, the pricing starts at $3,000 for an organization with less than ten employees to do an H.R. audit, which is an audit of like all these things in the Thrive model and then just help you come up with a plan so you feel more confident of like, okay, I know what I need to do in the next quarter, in the next year, in order to be able to get to these things.

00:35:27:02 

RUSTY

Fantastic. So it doesn't have to be a long term hire, it doesn't have to be particularly expensive and it doesn't have to be overwhelming. People can tap into free materials or consultants like you and there are others out there as well to help out, to bring expertise and focus. I know for me, running a small shop, sometimes it's just a matter of having someone to partner with to focus on one element of the organization that needs attention. And so having a partner in that, who brings expertise and focus, is so important.

00:36:07:15

ARUM

Yeah, just do it one at a time. One step at a time.

00:36:10:08 

RUSTY

One step at a time. Well, fantastic. You know, I want to make sure people know how to get in touch with you as a resource. So, do you want to tell people how to reach ALL-in 4 Impact and to reach you?

00:36:22:20

ARUM

Yeah. So certainly you can go to the website. It's just www.allin4impact.com. You can also certainly, I very much welcome people to email me at Arum@allin4impact.com or to find me on LinkedIn. I don't think anyone else has my name so if you just put in Arum Lee Lansel and so I'm sure you'll find it right away. Yeah, I would love to hear from any organization that, you know, wants some support, even if they don't have the budget for it. I do a free H.R. advisory call, you know, one time for an organization because, you know, again, like, I'm in this work because I feel really strongly that this is what's needed in the sector and so I just want to be able to support as much as I can.

00:37:16:07

RUSTY

And that's great. So if you're looking for Arum on LinkedIn. Her name is Arum, and then Lee and the last name Lansel. And the firm is allin4impact.com. All right, Arum, thank you so much for your time and your insights. This was really terrific.

00:37:44:00 

ARUM

Thank you, it has been a wonderful conversation. I really appreciate the opportunity.

00:37:48:12 

RUSTY

Thanks. All right, everybody, thanks for listening. We'll be back with another great episode and another great guest, soon.

00:37:59:02 - 00:38:22:02

OUTRO

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