Whiskey Talk with Chris Morris and Elizabeth McCall, Woodford Reserve

0:01 On today's film in whiskey, I'm flying solo for an unscheduled bonus episode. We have some fantastic interview guests and I get to drink a whiskey that would make rad jealous. That's all ahead on film and whiskey. Hey everyone, welcome to the podcast. I'm Bob book, Brad is not joining us today. He is still taking some well-deserved time off from having his first child.

0:42 So, congratulations again to Brad, I'm back today with an unplanned bonus episode. I received an email the other day saying that our guest today wanted to, Come on the show and talk about their new product. And when Woodford Reserve comes a-knockin, you don't say, no, I'm joined today by Woodford. Reserve Master distiller, Chris Morris, and assistant, Master distiller, Elizabeth McCall. We're here to talk about the new Woodford, Reserve Masters collection, very fine, Rare bourbon, and we're going to get to that. But before we get there, Chris Morris, this is your second appearance on our show. The first time you were here, we talked about your favorite films. I had no idea that you were such an expert at Sci-fi. But that episode was such a blast that I have just been dying to talk to you. Since, thanks for being here today. How are you sir?

1:28 Are you? I'm very fine. Thank you, Rob. And I bought. I enjoyed our last visit. That was so fun. We're also joined today by assistant Master distiller, Elizabeth McCall, Elizabeth. It sounds like Chris has kind of set the bar pretty high for movie breakdowns. And we may not have a chance to talk about your favorite movie today, but just know that Chris has become a favorite around here, but it is so good to meet you. I cannot Not wait to get into talking about today's product. Thanks for being on the show. How are you today? I'll thank you for having me and I have to say, you know, Chris Morris is like no other. I mean, and breadth of knowledge of different topics is always astounding to me, so I don't know if I can quite reach that far.

2:08 Maybe on my tippy toes, oh my gosh. Well if you don't mind me giving just a little bit of bio for you. Elizabeth since this is your first time on our show, Elizabeth started out in the R&D department at Brown Forman and Nine as a sensory expert, she quickly Rose through the ranks in that field eventually working with brown-forman to train people at different brands, under the brown-forman name in their sensory methodology eventually. She caught the attention of Chris Morris and was named the master taster at Woodford Reserve before. Becoming assistant Master distiller, she continues to rack up the accolades. I just saw that she was named one of wine enthusiasts 40 under 40 for 2020, so Elizabeth, congratulations on that.

2:50 Accomplishment, thank you very much. It was a huge honor and just all of it is just astounding to me and I just got to keep working hard to keep, keep going. So, my first question for both of you today, I love that. You both came up through the R&D worlds with brown-forman, and obviously, it's not totally out of the ordinary for a master distiller, to have a background in the sort of chemistry and the development side of things. But we've done enough episodes of this podcast now that we've interacted with some Whiskey Brands who is master distillers are really just kind of installed in a figurehead sort of roll and you guys seem to be the exact opposite of that. And so, how unusual I guess is it for somebody in a position like yours to still be as heavily involved in the research and development side of things as you both are? Well, well, thank you for saying or we're in. I mean, we're very proud that every, every product under the woofers Nerve umbrella, we've created proposed created, and it also takes great partnership with our brand teams in sales teams.

4:00 So we work as one team at brown-forman parent company, Brown of with reserve, of course, but at brown-forman, the distiller is, is in charge of the product. So we're very, very proud of that that tradition we continue on and, and Elizabeth, of course, Is still heading a lot of our R&D not still heading. She is heading a lot of our R&D initiative so I let her talk about that. Yeah Bob I think it's really interesting at brown-forman to we have I mean I'm in a development program it is not a title that is just thrust upon someone.

4:42 It is a full development that takes years and years of working in the distilleries getting to know all the teams. And then also knowing the The commercialization side, the supply chain side, the marketing side. So it really is a something that ground form and takes a lot of pride in and it's somebody that has technical but then the marketing side as well. So it's a very unique role within the company and it's one that I think coming up through Rd has been beneficial for me. And as Chris mentioned, I mean, I still work with those teams to develop our our Innovation. So it's it's a group. A team effort and I work with our processing team to really get down to the nitty-gritty of.

5:26 How do we take a concept that I've talked through with Chris and, and we've talked it through. And I said, I think that this flavor sounds interesting for whiskey and then we work out the Kinks with our processing team to understand how do we, how do we do this and how do we work to make sure that the micro side Works in fermentation and then scaling it up because scalability is A huge, huge component when it comes to Innovation and we can do a lot of small things that are pilot plant and have fun and maybe that becomes a Distillery series but for something to be scalable to become a masters collection is definitely a huge Challenge and it's something we work with our teams closely on Elizabeth.

6:10 You started out as a sensory expert in the quality department at Brown Forman in doing background. I thought this was like, the most interesting thing that you actually We're training to go into psychology and then in the sensory field they kind of seek out psychology Majors because it's a huge component of the sensory experience. Could you maybe like elaborate on that a little bit? Why is it that sensory is looking for people with psychology backgrounds? Yes. Actually my, the entire team I worked with at the time and I believe still the the sensory team is all comprised of people with psychology degrees and that is because in sensory, Three you're using human beings as your instrument and though it's looking at human response, the same thing if I were doing a psychological assessment on someone and trying to see behaviourally how they're working, or how their mind is working, it's the same kind of concept with sensory and it's a very methodical practice and something that you need to know the statistics on how to analyze your results and properly set up an experiment so that you are eliminating different.

7:20 Bowls to making sure that you can really know what you're testing for and so we have three different areas within sensory just to break down what it is. We're trying to do to look for in our testing. So we have quality control, which is where I started out, and then we also have our research side which is all the shelf life testing. So any product out there on the market goes through these sort of sensory tests depending on the product. But you do shelf life, testing, or for your reformulating, something you're going. To test it in a lab first to see if people can figure out. Is there a visual difference or a nose or taste difference? And then we look at it from a consumer side as well. Going through a consumer advisory panel. So, and then we have a descriptive analysis panel. So really have a guess for different panels that are at our fingertips.

8:14 So, when you're interviewing for a job like that, or when you go in for your performance review, how are they like testing your palate and your nose things like that, I'm kind of just picturing those game shows where they, like, put a blindfold on somebody and feed them tartar sauce off of a spoon or something. How do they gauge? How fine-tuned your palate is? We don't, I mean, we do get, so we do get tested but it's not going to make or break us having our job, I guess? Because I mean, My job as the sensory technician was to run panels and analyze data and really help our plants troubleshoot whenever they have a quality issue. So that's really your goal.

8:54 And then the bonus is that you become highly trained with your palate because you're dealing with all these, the whiskies are the different Liquors. You're making every day. And the other component of that is how do you make sure that you are a good instrument? And so Chris sits on the panel. So we have these panels that run all of our regular lives samples, but then we put in markers samples or Spike two samples, to make sure that people are properly evaluating and catching those. And if you don't do well, your data doesn't get counted. So you are essentially considered broken for that panel and you just your data is not used. So there's a way that we calibrate to make sure that our panelists all know how to properly nose and taste pick out any defects And can do different tasks that are required for sensory, work.

9:49 Thanks a lot of sense. Okay. Yeah. There is a way to check it, but it doesn't mean if I don't get it that day of my job is never pretty, I don't know, Chris might say, has have a different opinion. I was gonna say you might be cutting a closer than you think actually. So Elizabeth. The first time we had Chris on here, I mean, it's very obvious that he is known for his Innovative spirit. It. And one of the things that you've become really passionate about and known for is returning the production of Rye grain to Kentucky especially because of the the conservation efforts involved in that. But when it comes to the more Innovative and experimental things, is there a grain that you prefer to work with, is it right?

10:33 Because of your focus on Rye or is there may be another one that you like to toy with a little bit more in your Mash bills, you know, without giving away any top secret recipe. That are coming up. What do you like to experiment with in terms of grains? Well, that's a great question and a lot of it. So I feel like a lot of my brainstorming at always bounce off of Chris because Chris is the original Just Master innovator. And kind of, it's taking, you have to look at not just something that we're passionate about. But also, what is the market? What are people looking for? And so, yes. I'm very passionate about rye and more Particular, just not because of that grain in particular, but because of the overall project of the sustainability regenerative, agricultural practices that it is helping to bring back and supporting Kentucky.

11:26 There's so many positive elements to that, but when it comes to looking at Flavour crisps and miles down and talk about like different roasted notes, we did chocolate malted Rye, which was kind of, I had, just I'm, I worked with the new make on that, but Chris, you know, worked on that grain. And so after I fell in love with that whiskey and then talking to him about what can we do? We went down and looked at there's a whole library of different roasted grains and and just kind of thinking of ideas of how from a flavor standpoint and then also what's the story and how do we Market this? Because that's another component to it is not just does it taste good but why do we want to do this?

12:07 And what's the thought process behind it? Well, and that's one of the things that I've really appreciated about the Masters collection in In general, is that Woodford is not afraid to put its name on some of these more experimental Mash bills are talking about chocolate malt. And I've seen that the oat one as well and I feel like Woodford is really on The Cutting Edge of some of these more experimental, Mash bills and grain recipes. You know, I just saw one the other day, from a smaller distiller here in Ohio that uses spelt in their grain recipe. And, you know, I know you guys may not have gone that far yet, but I think it says a lot about Woodford, that it Used to plant its flag in that experimental mindset and I guess that's a good segue into talking about the Masters collection here. Chris, I'm wondering if maybe for our listeners you could just give us a brief history of the Masters collection. What was the impetus behind it?

12:59 What sparked this really Innovative collection and run of Whiskey's that you all are doing Under The Heading of the Masters collection? Certainly this is our 16th release. So going back 16 years of bottles on the Shelf. If which means, production predates that. So, from the very early, very early years, we were innovating and experimenting and that goes back to Alice, Lee Brown, the second delayed owsley Brown. Who's the creator of Woodford, Reserve? Chairman of brown-forman at the time. And as Lee said, what for Reserve would be the home of innovative whiskies Innovative Whiskey's plural and I That comment to heart and of course innovation in our industry, really began our was solidified at our current building long before we owned it. When James Christopher, Crowe and Oscar pepper. Again, defined, the sour mash process that uses new charred, Oak, barrels, and also introduced other aspects of modern bourbon production, whiskey production to Kentucky in the United States.

14:13 So we were playing off that history of innovation. And also we wanted to, you know, these are the early years Bob before bourbon was even popular again. And and we thought that this would give us a good chance to develop future products, as a trial. And also to generate some publicity zappy, are to get stories written about the Woodford Reserve, Distillery. So there were multiple aspects to the Concept and chosen a masters collection. I chose that name and it was again to honor the masters of the past was not bold enough at the time or 21 honor us. It was about the past And again, we were pushing the envelope. And as you very kindly noted, we have done it, we've been adduced wood finishes to to America in a way that no one ever had thought before using varietal wines using all new wood. Such as sugar, maple, introducing oats to Bourbon and other specialty grains.

15:23 And just, you know, the list is 16 116 long. So this current release marks a transition, we're still going to be Innovative, but now the Masters collection is about Elizabeth and myself and that's noted in the Hang tag. That little brochure book like that is a fixed each bottle. We're no longer talking about the past, we're talking about the future. So this is a bridge, the product is a bridge to the past and, and the new package And going forward, the name is is a bridge to the future or the present. You might want to say. So Elizabeth's name, joins my name on the product and it's about the masters of today and tomorrow going forward, it's about Innovation.

16:14 It's about developing potentially developing future products are rye, whiskey came for the Masters clutch and oo2 came from the Masters, clutching our wheat, and malt whiskies have come for the Masters collection, those were the the sounding boards. This Elizabeth was saying with consumers for tweaking them and changing them for scalability purposes. But they've led to, our current products are, would Reserve Baccara, as its, as its foundation in the Masters collection. So the Masters collection has really served as well. Well, in that takes us into talking about today is whiskey, which is this Masters collection? Very fine Rare bourbon. Now this is a is a blend of Bourbons with the oldest among them being 17 year old barrels of Woodford Reserve bourbon which I believe is the oldest stock that you all had in your possession.

17:08 These 17 year old barrels were distilled in Chris's first year as Master distiller, 2003. And what I love about it is it just has such a great story to tell it represents a transition from, you know, honoring the history but looking towards the future. But I want to zero in on these seven. Here old barrels. This is a huge deal. Did it just come to a point where they had hit the perfect maturity point and you said, okay it's time to pull the trigger on. These were you holding them back with this sort of a release in mind? How do you, you know, just kind of let something sit around Beijing for that long? I'm curious to hear the story behind those barrels. They were not intended for this product was not conceived because as you, well, know, we do not believe in an age claims or a Statements. There is none and very fine Rare. Whiskey is using terms from the past from Oscar pepper and James, Christopher crows day because they didn't use age statements in the past.

18:09 They use those kind of terms for older whiskies and we have all this in various old advertisement. We've obtained from the University of Kentucky, the Kentucky historical society and the Filson Historical Society in Louisville as well as our own archive. So again, there's that nod to the Past using the old terms for very rare. Well, special whiskey and the core, the oldest Barrels in this group or if it were through experimentation. We were seeing how long Wicked old barrels and our unique heat cycle warehousing. So they're these barrels. Were they just got to a point where they were so old and the yield or the volume left in.

18:56 The barrels was getting so solo as well, and I tasted them. Took samples of each and then hand Elizabeth taste them and they were just incredible like oh my gosh these are so good. Let's put them to use before they're all gone. They would have been gone in a couple more years. Barrels would have been empty. So that's that's why is Elizabeth has learned from me, is sometimes just opportunities present themselves, you hadn't planned on them but like here's a here's something we might be able to use Use and and that's what we did. Well and I'm just so curious about the 17-year old barrels because it's so unusual to see whiskey that's been aged that long in the bourbon world and generally it's considered much much riskier to aged bourbon for that long as opposed to like a scotch whiskey because at some point the oak kind of overtakes things and you just given up too much to the angels, I'm wondering as you continue to go back to these barrels as they age and as you took samples, was there an element that you were kind of Playing with fire.

20:05 The more and more you went back to the well and said, you know, maybe not yet. Let's let him sit a little while longer does it seem risky to you to take that approach? Oh, yes. And that's and let's be clear. This bottling is not all 17 year old whisky. It's a bad Sheena, barrels that are all still quite old. There's 12 and 13, and some 11s. So it's a bashing of various ages, but their flavor profiles and I think again, it's one of their so many storylines that we can't cover them all on a package, the importance of batching, which is the fundamental practice at Woodford, Reserve, we batch barrels together to develop a flavor profile.

20:49 So some of the barrels may have been Woody. I can't say they all they were or they weren't some could have been, I can't remember each and every barrel. But again, we're batching them with other very rare find barrels to come up with what we thought was a In flavor combination and of course, it's a masters collection. So it's its own standard. We don't compare it to anything, we compare it only to itself and we don't have to make it again because Masters collection is a one-time release. So it's a unique flavor profile created from batching our oldest barrels together to come up with what we did. Well and I've been sippin on this throughout our discussion and if I could just give even the briefest of tasting notes Here. What immediately?

21:34 Oops, out to me on the nose is the rice spice, just jumps out of the glass on this. Obviously, there's a Great Oak character from the 17-year that that's kind of bumping up some of that Oak heavy, you know, aged scent and flavor here. But the predominant thing for me on the nose, is the rise spice. And then on the flavor, there's some really great fruit notes. It's incredibly fruity, which I was not necessarily expecting. There's some great summary, stone fruit like a peach but then also some much darker elements like a raise. And poem a little bit of red wine character as well. But the crazy thing is that this doesn't fall outside. The general sort of flavor, profile of Woodford, Reserve.

22:14 It's a great kind of marrying of these additional fruity flavors into what we all know and love with the Woodford. Reserve flavor profile. Well, thank you, thank you, Elizabeth. You want to mention anything on the flavor profile. Other than just, you know, we taste our barrels throughout Maturation and whenever we have something kind of earmarked as a project or as a a yeah I guess special project or future Masters collection, Distillery series, whatever you want to call it. We make sure we have access to those barrels and we taste them on a regular basis so it's they're very nurtured and loved from the get-go. Not that we don't love and nurture all of our barrels. But we can't possibly taste every single barrel. We have resting Chris and I would do nothing but live in warehouses but We taste every batch, we always give a quality rating to every batch of whiskey we produce and then we have things that we're marking for something special. We keep tasting.

23:12 And we make sure that they hit the flavor we're looking for. And and you know, these, we kind of you taste them as they're aging and it kind of hit that sweet spot and some about, you know, and all the back barrels that went into these batches is Masters collection. So it was just kind of a fun project. A good learning for me, I'm kind of how we monitor whiskey that goes. That Long because we struggle to age a long time in our warehouses because they are heat cycled. So this is not something that we can do and have it be a real winning thing because we're going to see with this key lost at a greater rate than most warehouses in Kentucky.

23:53 We've had a barrel that if you looked at as contents by itself, it had six bottles of whiskey in it. Wow. So it is very fine and rare indeed. I love that. Well, the other thing that's debuting along with this product, is this new bottle design that you all have, which is just absolutely gorgeous. And, you know, I've always said, I love Woodford, Reserve and their bottles but I just can't use it as a weapon. So I feel like you have really remedied that, it's got a nice club shape to it. Now, I'm wondering if you could just give any insight on, you know, the development of this bottle. What was the thought process behind kind of this new design?

24:33 This new rebranding. Branding of the collection. Well again the pot still shaped bottle the now-familiar. Pot still shaped bottle was a not a generic model by any means, but it was a bottle that we did not own but we had some rights to it over the years and and we didn't have anything else. We had the original Woodford bottle didn't have double oaked or baccarat and again going back so many years. How can you for tell the future? But now as we've expanded to the distillers, select range with four expressions and then we've added Double Oak with its unique bottle baccarat with its unique bottle.

25:16 It was time to look at that, that pillar that held the Masters collection and batch proof. And again, that bottle look like the family anymore because the family had grown. So the brand team decided to design a new bottle that we would only I'm 100% that would fit in with the price tearing with the the premiumness of the, of the family. And of course, look like Woodford. Look like it belonged to the would Reserve family. And I think they've come up with a real nice response to that. And there we have it.

25:58 I never thought of it as a weapon but you know, that's that's what we're here for. You know, we're constantly Trying to give new ideas. So you're welcome for that one so Elizabeth. I can't let you go today without talking about one other thing that we do here on the film and whiskey podcast, when we had Chris, the first time he joined us for a series of bonus episodes that we do called my favorite movie and we kind of hinted earlier that he brought up a western and he also brought up The Day the Earth Stood Still I'm wondering for you if you could maybe just give us a small teaser of what your favorite movie might be because I'd love to have you back on the show? Though we'd love to do a my favorite movie bonus episode and talked about this at length.

26:39 But if you you know, on the spot, if we asked you, what your favorite movie was, what would you say? Okay. Um, I had to come to mind, they're both very different films. First of all, Forrest Gump is my I love that movie, I could sit down and watch it at any time, start watching it, no matter what where it is in the movie. I know what they're going to say next. I just love love. That movie another one that I love is Steel Magnolias. So yeah, I mean that's just a classic for any. I think southern woman just loves Steel Magnolias. Yeah. So the holiday movies, the what Chris pointer was talking about is that we all really like Christmas vacation, I mean and when somebody doesn't know that movie it just it's my soul. I don't understand how you don't know Christmas vacation but that's definitely a classic Well, this sounds like a fantastic future episode is shaping up already, Chris and Elizabeth.

27:39 I cannot thank you enough for being on the show today, everybody, this has been Woodford. Reserve Master distillers, Chris Morris and assistant Master distiller, Elizabeth McCall, talking about this new Woodford, Reserve. Masters collection release very fine. Rare bourbon, guys, it's fantastic. If you get a chance to try a sip of it, it is absolutely worth it. I have to say thank you both again for being on the show. Thank you. Thank you. All right. We'll see you again on Monday for a regularly scheduled episode. But until then I'm Bob book and we'll see you next time.