West Side Story (2021) Revisited with Patrick H. Willems + Penelope Riviera Review

0:01 In 2021, director Steven Spielberg and star Ansel Elgort gave the world an adaptation of one of the most famous musicals of all time. In 2026, we try a whiskey that's in a category all its own. The film is West Side Story. The whiskey is Penelope Riviera. And we'll review them both. This is the Film and Whiskey podcast.

0:48 Welcome to the Film and Whiskey podcast, where each week we review a classic movie and a glass of whiskey. I'm Bob Book. I'm I'm Brad G. And Brad G, we are shaking the rust off a little bit today. This is not really an official podcast episode. This is it's kind of like the NBA play in where those stats don't get counted towards the regular season or the post. Season or the playoffs? Yeah. Yeah, so like we're kind of just in between seasons here, you know, this, this weird nether world that we're in right now, I feel. Like at some point 10 years from now, there's going to be a player that's like been on the Atlanta Hawks and they've been in the play in tournament for 10 years straight. And there's going to be a stat on the NBA thing that was like if his play off stats included the play in games. Yeah.

1:38 Oh yeah, he'd be outscoring LeBron. Yeah, exactly, dude. So listen, we had, we had made a promise to each other and to our good friend who we will intro here in just a second. That's when we were. Saying promise to each other. I just imagine like the hand, the muscular arms, clasping hands. Yeah, what movie is that from? Predator. Predator. Yeah, Predator. So we reviewed West Side Story a couple months ago, a film that is not just near and dear to my heart, but I think I said on the episode, this is a contender for Bob Book's sight and sound list. And during that episode, our front patch, Williams said, listen, I think the 21 version is better.

2:21 And I said, look, I am happy to hear your case. I I hope you present your argument and prepare it in such a way that it is ready for the onslaught that faces you because I wholeheartedly disagree. And yet Patrick turned up. Patrick is here to talk to us about Steven Spielberg's modern masterpiece. Question mark the 2021 W Side Story. Patrick, how are you tonight, man? Guys, I'm doing great. How are you? Just doing. Dandy, I got to listen to the music of Stephen Sondheim once more. Like it's, It's always a good day. It's glorious. Guys, I got, I've got takes, I've got many takes on this movie and I'm prepared to hear yours.

3:07 But I think that where I want to start today is somewhere that I don't actually think we talked about in the last episode, which is what level of familiarity do you have to the actual stage version of West Side Story? Because I realized zero. I have never seen it staged either. That is a big. So, so Brad and I are watching this version, which, you know, there's definitely been some adaptation by the screenwriter Tony Kushner. So it's like, is he rewriting lyrics or are these just the original lyrics from Broadway reinstituted now that there aren't any sensors? I can tell you about that. Please do please. The changes to the lyrics are changes that Sondheim made in between the original film and this one. OK.

3:56 Yeah, those those versus. A revision from the source. Yes, those are are kind of like the updated lyrics. Those were not change like the the the movie makes changes to the book, as in like, you know, the the non, you know, like the dialogue and stuff like that. But the actual lyrical changes, especially in America, those were I'm, I'm, I can't tell you when, but I know those were Sondheim changes. Yep. So it's basically like George Lucas special editions, just, you know, little tweaks here and there. I I think some of them would, yeah. But I think a bunch of these were like feedback from actual like Puerto Rican people to be like, Hey, can we change some some of those We don't love some of those lyrics in in in America.

4:45 And he's like, you know what, I hear you. And because these are being sung by Puerto Rican characters, let's let's get it right. So. But also it's it's really fun to go back and watch the 4K of the 61 version now and see where Robert Wise inserted CGI like Gungans in the background of stuff. That's it's a fun Easter egg. It is, you know, for those who are OG. Would Maria shout in a clunky that that's that's what it was always missing? So I do know that even like in the 61 version, Rita Moreno was like, I am not singing some of these lyrics from the Broadway version for America. And so they kind of tweaked the intro to that song even then. So I'm not surprised to hear that Sondheim had additional, you know, revisions to make with the lyrics here. So let me just say, I'm really glad that all three of us who are now super familiar with the film versions of West Side Story have basically no understanding of the screen, this stage version, because that allows us to strictly focus on the cinematic here.

5:54 I think we can all agree West Side Story is perhaps the kind of quintessential American musical and I think has been kind of canonized that way, especially in the last few decades. So we love the music, we love the story. Obviously Billy Shakespeare. Good job on that one. Attaboy. So let's talk about the movies themselves. And I want to start with Brad, because Brad, you really like the original. And I think now, especially after doing like 400 movies, revisiting it, you really appreciate the the cinematic elements of it. And yet as soon as you finished watching the Spielberg version, you said this is way better than the 1961 version.

6:41 I turn it over to you. Make your opening arguments here, Brad, I think. I, you know, we were texting another friend of ours, Zach, the other day about like, how far we've come as movie critics, if you could call us that. And one of the things I've realized is that the more movies I watch, I kind of know what I appreciate in movies. And there can be elements of movies that I appreciate less that I can still recognize and go, yeah, like, the lighting here was incredible. But incredible lighting isn't going to move the needle on a movie for me as much as a well crafted story that showcases a unique element of what it means to be a human. Like, that's like, my that's what really gets me going. And I think that the script in this movie is just flat out better.

7:36 I think that the big drawback for me about the original 1 and Bob, you and I have said this from Season 1 when we watched it, anytime Tony and Maria are on the screen together, I'm like ready to fall asleep. It's not great. The. Like the action? Is just OK The There's something about it that falls flat for me. Rachel Ziegler and Ansel Elgort, every time they're on screen together, I'm locked in and they change just enough of their relationship. Give it just a little bit of tension and it's not much. They give both of them just a little more background and a little more depth when they're with other characters. I like.

8:19 I think the The relationship between Riff and Tony is so much better in this movie than it is in the original. I think the relationship between Anita and Maria so much better than in the original. So I think it's like those elements of the characters just being fleshed out a little bit that made me go like, oh, like this is so much better than the original. I don't know where you guys are at, but that's where I. Was going to say I would like to know where Patrick lands on the gauntlet that's been thrown down. The evaluation is 2021 is much better than 1961. I'm not going to go that far.

9:05 So OK, what I believe what I said when I was on here before talking about the 1961 movie. It's 61, right? Yep. Yeah, exactly 60 years between them. I know. So I believe what I said and you can, you feel free to, to, you know, check the record, pull up the tapes and and show that I'm incorrect. I think I said the Spielberg one, which may even be better or kind of question mark. Like, I believe I brought it up in a way where I, I think, I think there are a lot of elements of the Spielberg one that are improvements. And but it is also, it's hard for me to like it. I'm never going to say the 2021 film replaces the the original 1 because I think it is so in conversation with the original film.

10:07 And they do both have their own strengths. And so it's one of those things where when you ask me what is your favorite musical movie, I do kind of have to cheat and say West Side Story like parentheses S it's like the two of them together. And because what I talked about in a lot in the episode about the original film is that what this movie does so spectacularly is just the combination of light and color and movement and music. And that is its crowning achievement to me. That is that it does so magnificently.

10:48 That is like when that movie is cooking. It is utterly transcendent to the point where I, I, I will easily forgive things like, oh, yeah, the Tony Maria relationship is not the the most exciting thing in the world or whatever. And so, yeah, because the, the like there, there aren't parts of that movie that I think are bad. There's just parts that I think are, are OK. And then the highs are so stratospherically high. The Spielberg 1 is so interesting because it's a movie that when it was announced, I feel like everyone went why? Like, I, I get that you Spielberg making the musical felt inevitable.

11:32 Just look, you know, his his mastery of of visual language and action scenes. The times that he kind of flirted with musicals in the was the the Lindy Hop sequence of 1941, the opening of Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom. Like the guy can do it, obviously. And it just seemed odd that like, oh, so you're finally going to do a musical terrific, but you're, you're going to remake a contender for the best one ever. And does it need a remake? And then, but I was like, look, I, I trust in Steve and I showed up that I actually know. I, I, I this was, I remember this was a funny experience.

12:15 Wow, this is, I'm going on such a long story. And you were just like, so Patrick, do you like it or do you not like it? But I, I promise this is all relevant. But I remember I, I, I went to a press screening of it that I, as usual, I was not invited. I, I, my, my friend Souvanth was invited and I was just plus one. But it, the press screening we were at was happening simultaneously with the world premiere, so no one had seen the movie and it was embargoed. The embargo went up I think an hour or so after our screening got out. So I remember getting out. So I had to. So no one had seen it. There were no reactions. There was no buzz or anything when I went in, which is weird because usually when we see movies, we're aware of what the, the critical consensus is, what people have been saying.

13:04 So I had no idea. And then I remember getting out from the movie and I had to like to rush out like really quickly. So I wasn't hanging around talking with people and friends were texting me like, Hey, how was it? And I was like, I, I, I think it's maybe a masterpiece, but I don't know what anyone else thinks. I could be totally wrong. But yeah. But it was the thing. And I saw it multiple times in theaters. And I have, I have revisited it multiple times since then. And I do, I truly think this is in the upper tier of Spielberg's movies. And I say that as someone who recently for other projects has been like watch like just kind of honest Spielberg kick.

13:46 I literally paused Empire of the Sun at the halfway point to come on and do this podcast. And I think it is in the upper tier of his filmography. And I think what's so special about the movie is that it retains so much of the the great things about the original version. It doesn't. It doesn't change stuff just to just to be different. But the way that Tony Kushner, like, subtly updates the script, like Brad was saying, I think adds so much to the entire thing and that.

14:27 Let me interrupt you there for a second 'cause I, I do want to talk a little bit about like the way that specifically the film was updated, but I don't think iterated is the right word. But you kind of even said it it, it's in conversation with the 61 version in addition to the stage play, in addition to Shakespeare, right? So, you know, there there is a sort of self consciousness about what Spielberg and Kushner are doing here in that they know when they have to make reference to the visuals we all remember and when they need to depart from those things or when that's a purposeful choice, I guess is what I should say. And I, I guess we'll start with Kushner because it sounds like both of you guys are like really on board with the script here and the changes.

15:08 That we made Bob. You haven't told us your take on the movie. That's very observant, Patrick. Yeah, I mean, you know, I'm trying to be the impartial host here. I'll say this guys, I I think that everything prior to the rumble swings wildly between this is brilliant. And like, this was a choice that doesn't work for me. Like and it and it will change from scene to scene. And it that encompasses everything from like some of the writing choices to we'll talk about Kaminsky. I think some of like the, the color grading and lighting choices in this movie, like just really, really irk me. Yeah, whatever, Patrick.

15:50 I see your face once it clicks into the rumble is like, OK. And and and I think maybe it's it feels to me almost like in watching it in sequence, like Spielberg kind of takes a breather, takes a break from the music for a minute and makes like a grown up kind of terrifying movie for 15 minutes. And then The thing is just sings after that like it is off to the races. And I think, you know, part of that is the way that that the script and the, you know, the origin story hurdles towards its climax. But I think that Spielberg really gets a handle on the material in that back, you know, half and we.

16:32 Talked about when we did our episode about the 61 film, how as great as it is after the rumble, it's it it it loses some energy and is never as good because that's the point when you don't have the banger songs and it really is about Tony and Maria, which is the least compelling part of the movie. Yeah, I was bracing myself for AI think this movie is bad and an utter failure at which I was I was like, come on, I I was getting worried, but I but no, I I I think this is this is an interesting and totally valid take and I'm really curious to to hear more about your take for the like the the back stretch of the film. Yeah.

17:20 Well, let's get into it a little bit. And and like I said, let's start with Kushner here, because I think that there are choices made both in the front part of the movie and in the back part of the movie. And there are things that I want to get on the table and acknowledge are I just think flaws with West Side Story and potentially Romeo and Juliet in terms of like dramatic, like like where you pull the dramatic momentum and the rug gets pulled out from under that. So like in both versions, you have the rumble, you have someone dead, you're like, Oh shit, everything just got real. And then it's like, let's do I feel pretty right now, Like let's let's just take a take a deep breath and do I feel which is first of all, a lovely song and a a complete ear worm. I know Sondheim didn't like the lyrics that he wrote for it and and really regretted it later in life. But also, like, I think the the point I'm trying to make here is like, no matter what Tony Kushner and Steven Spielberg did with that smash, cutting to I feel pretty is never going to be a great decision.

18:26 I'm sorry, I need to go back like 3 minutes. Not only did you just throw four time Oscar award-winning Tony Kushner under the bus, you also you also ran over William Effing Shakespeare with what with that saying is. To I realized after I said it that William Shakespeare did not in fact, smash cut to I feel pretty in his play, so I will retract that bit of my argument. Read it again. I I feel pretty in iambic pentameter would be wonderful though, that's all I. I do understand the argument against the placement of. I feel pretty.

19:09 I think the the purpose of it has always been, and you know, this is its purpose. You you might just think its purpose doesn't work, which is totally fair. But it is I feel pretty, which could just be a sort of like nice throwaway little song suddenly is now laced with all of this dramatic irony that like for sure, man, she is, she is she is a feeling on top of the world. Because then immediately after that, that that song Chino shows up and delivers this news. So she goes from like her highest high to her absolute lowest point.

19:51 And, and, and that's what, and it's the thing where like, that's what I think is, is that's what I like about having the song there, because you're getting into the song, but you're just like, oh. Oh, oh Maria, oh you, you have, you have no idea. Oh oh, you're not going to feel very pretty in like 5. Minutes. Yeah, it's a real oh honey kind of moment for her, for sure. It it feels like something Tarantino would do to one of his characters like. It feels. Like, like, granted, if this is a Tarantino movie, Chino would show up and actually shoot Maria, right? But it feels like that level of tension between what you're seeing on the screen and what you know as a viewer.

20:32 I like, I freaking love the placement of the song, where it's at in the film. I will say in terms of that back half, I think, and I I believe this, this change actually originated in some versions of the the stage show, because again, you know, like any Broadway show from back then, it's been revived multiple times. Every revival has changes. I think one of the best cool cool moving, moving cool to pre rumble and also having cool be Tony and riff, not action and the other guys.

21:14 I and and also, of course, just like the staging of cool. I I think is pretty spectacular, But but also that is moving cool also shortens that like the the the last stretch of the movie and and and it's just I think it works so much better in this version. And and here's the thing. And I know. It's funny too, because. Like, I like the song cool, but it's it's just like there, there's no competition. Yeah. I think that like the I I kind of break all the changes up in my mind and like changes that I definitely think are improvements, changes that I'm neutral about, changes that I don't like and cool falls in the middle camp for me. But I think that might actually be like the best thing I can say about it because I I went to bat for cool in our last episode.

22:00 I think that like it's probably the thing that gets laughed at the most when you show that movie in like high school to to, you know, they're like, Oh, this is really dumb. But when you can get on its wavelength and see the way that those kids are like literally exploding inside having seen one of their own just get murdered, I love the and I love that it's in that parking garage and you get the bright lights and it's, it's just, it's staged so well. And so to move it pre rumble, like you said, it's now between Tony and Riff. And so you get that great moment at the end where instead of like a direct address to camera where they're all saying pow at the audience in the 61 version, you now get Riff saying pow at Tony, which is just a you're dead to me.

22:46 And it is like, it's heartbreaking. It cut back to Tony. There's a tear going down his face. Like it's there's so much more emotional resonance between those two characters now. And Brad, you even mentioned this, like the relationship between Tony and Riff in this one is so much more fleshed out. And, and I don't think that that's a reflection for me necessarily. You know, I tried to go through my mind who's better in their role between the 61 and and 21. And we'll get to the cast. I love Russ Tamblyn in the original, and I don't think that I can hold it against him that, you know, Mike Feist got way meatier dialogue in this version, right? Like, they're both excellent for for what they're supposed to be. I will say at this juncture, I'm still pissed off that Mike Feist didn't get nominated for this.

23:33 Because it's like, you watch a movie like this and you watch that role and you say like, that's a star, that dude's going to be a *. And he completely, even in like the opening ballet, you know, down the street, this is like a very wide canvas, the cameras constantly moving and your eyes are locked on Mike Feist. Like, he's just so good in this movie, you guys. And thankfully, you know, even though he didn't get the Oscar nomination, he still got challengers after this. As as opposed to poor Ariana Dubose, who is great in this movie, won an Oscar and then has not been in a single good movie since.

24:13 No, it's like she's. A fun thing now is Angela Bassett does the thing right. That's like, that's what she's known for. Right. It, it's, it is like her post West Side Story career is rough. But like, this was the the thing of with, with this movie of obviously it's introducing Rachel's Rachel Zeigler. She was like the this is her first film. She was a total unknown. But there are a bunch of like really exciting finds in this. And like Mike Feist, he he, he walks out of that like, you know, construction machine where he's just like making out with his girlfriend. And it's just like, you know, this guy is a star.

24:55 Yeah. Yeah. That's all he was doing, making out, just making making out with his girlfriend. I don't see him pulling up his pants. No. This is a PG13 movie if you didn't. See it? It definitely didn't happen. That's all I'm saying. Brad and Patrick, I want to continue down this thread of like structural changes for the better in this movie or for the worse. Like what were some changes that you noticed specifically that that stood out to you? I loved the usage of Rita Moreno as a married to the original doc, but now she's the doc running the store. I love that change.

25:39 I like it gave it a little more depth. And once again, it gave Tony as a character a little more depth for the motherly role that she has in his life. And like the little moments of her teaching him Spanish because he's so head over heels puppy in love with Maria. That little moment is like, OK, like this is the logic behind it that happens without us thinking about it. It's like, OK, if this is his mom and she believes that he's in love with Maria enough that she's going to help him get her, then I can believe that their relationship is for real.

26:19 Yeah. And so it's like little things like that, that I, I really found myself believing the whole premise of the entire story so much more than the original 1, but that, that one. That's also like way it's way closer to the role of the apothecary in Romeo and Juliet. Yes, right. Like the apothecary helps them out and then also makes the poison for them, right? Like so, because in the original, like Doc, at every juncture is like, I don't understand you kids. Get out of my candy. Shop the whole time basically isn't like a person. Yeah. Like he just he's he's the old guy who owns the place where they hang out. And and yeah, it's one of those things where, you know, I when they announced that Rita Moreno would be in this movie, it feels like like a lot of times in like whether you know, it's a remake or whatever, they're like, oh, right. We'll give an original cast number, like a little roll. They'll have a cameo.

27:16 So you can all you can do the Leo point the screen and be like, oh, there they are. And then then making her a real character who I think deepens so many things about the story where first of all, like, you know, the the doc figure is now an actual human being who even gets a song. But but suddenly just like the fact that like she's Puerto Rican and was married to a white man. And so she has experienced what Tony's experiencing. And Tony can look to her to be like, hey, see, see, this can work out. It worked out with you. And, you know, so much work, I think very suddenly is, is done to make Tony a way more interesting character, whether it's the fact that, you know, he was in prison because he almost killed a guy in a fight. Just, you know, like, even even just like the stuff with like with him and Riff and like the like, you know, birth to earth, sperm to worm the thing.

28:12 It's like, oh, right, this feels like a friendship that they have. And, and again, this is what I think is so smart about Kushner's script, where it's not like a radical rewrite. It's it's almost like a really, really smart Polish that just basically goes through. And it's like, let's deepen every character. Like, let's make anybody's like an actual character who's now like, explicitly like a trans woman or sorry, trans man. You know, like, like there in the script, rather than just kind of like the annoying tomboy who shows up every so often and yells a little bit and then runs away. Yeah, no, 100%. And I, I don't want to gloss over the fact that they have the doc character Rita Moreno singing the song somewhere and nobody else.

28:57 It's like it's just a solo for her and it's so much more touching. And I think to our recurring theme here, it speeds up the end of the movie a little bit. So because you don't have the awkwardness of hey, I killed your brother, let's have sex and then sing a song about it. Like it, it's there's still the the fundamental flaw of like, hey, I killed your brother, let's have sex. But we kind of cut away from that. But at least we can have Rita Moreno singing. Yeah, it's I just think that it it really does help that back half of the movie. And you know, you, you mentioned the oh, how does it start the sperm to worm line? Birth to. Earth womb to tomb, womb to tomb to sperm to worm. Yeah, they bring that back in tonight where in the original, you know, they're they're walking down the street and he's, I think he's talking to Arab and they're just counting out how they're going to punch the guy and he goes 123. Well, and in this one you have Mike Feist asking a different person, womb to tomb question mark and then sperm to worm is like the response because he's just told Tony like you're dead to me.

30:06 And it really it, it continually deepens like the tragedy of Riff as a character that he is like so desperate for that connection and to feel like there is someone who understands him and will go with him to the end of the line that he'll just like dangle that out in front of whoever else is in his vicinity at that moment. I just, I think little subtle things like that are, if not necessarily improvements, are just like they are earned moments for me. Yeah. Well, it's what I think all of these feed into is that the, you know, while these are both, you know, big extravagant musicals and also, and obviously the the original 1 was it was a big deal because it was like the first, not the first first, but it was, it was rare for for for musicals to be shot on location. And this was actually doing like location filming in New York. But the original is so stylized.

31:07 It is it is big bold colours. It is it it it does not feel like it really exists in in real New York as much as they have like the aerial helicopter photography at the beginning going over New York as much as especially the prologue, what is largely child and location. It does not like it. It feels like kind of like a fantastical universe, New York and I, the 2021 film is so much more rooted in the actual reality of real New York of that specific era, right from the very from the first shot, which I think is is so incredible of especially being, you know, someone who lives in New York when they show the sign of being like Lincoln Center coming soon.

31:55 And that's like I, I have, you know, truly, I saw this movie in theaters 2 blocks north of that. Like I've walked past that a million times. And so being like, this is where this is and, and like this is, this is a real place. And, and, and it just, it does feel like, you know, again, it, it's, it's lit there in a very glossy, colorful way, but it feels like more like an actual cohesive reality populated by real human beings in a way that the original 1 wasn't even really trying to do. But that to me is, is the biggest difference. Like there, there is actually like a community here. There are people on the street there that like the Puerto Rican characters have a like a culture here. And, and, and so and yeah, and, and just all these little changes to make this feel like a, a believable world populated by human beings.

32:53 I think is is so effective and really adds so much power to this version. Yeah, even the way that, I mean, I, you know, I lived in Philadelphia for a while and there is an element of like you crossover a certain St. and all of a sudden you're like, things are different here. Like there's a different population of people that live past this street than the ones that lived previous to it. And you see that like when The Jets first crossover and they're going to paint on the Puerto Rican flag. Like you feel that as they move in and it feels real and populated. Patrick, I think what you're talking about for me, I texted Bob at some point and I was like, I think that the 1961 version feels like a musical.

33:40 The 2021 version feels like a movie. And I don't know quite how to fully say it more than that other than it's like the first one feels like it's on a sound stage and it feels like it is it's contained and bright and vibrant and all these things. This one felt like a, a lived in world that feels more like a film. And I and that just man, it got me this time. Now, Bob, I think it's time. Are you ready? I'm ready. Let's do it. I because I perked up Patrick when I heard you say that you have been going on a Spielberg experience, an extravaganza of enjoying everything he has to offer us.

34:32 Bob has a very hot take about Yanis Kaminsky and I Bob, I, I'll give you the floor because I, I'm not going to try to say it for you, but I really want to hear Patrick's thoughts on this. I've been dying to hear it. All right. Now I will say apparently I am not alone in this take on Janusz Kaminsky because there was like a very small vocal minority of people on Twitter a couple months ago that were like, I don't vibe with Janusz and then got pilloried. So I cut my mouth shut, but but I stand with them silently. So I think that the majority of Spielberg's films post like AI or especially post Minority Report, when you really started to see Janusz bring in those like heavily diffused lights and integrate the lens flares in ways that he hadn't prior to that. And then especially like, I know Patrick, you corrected me on the last episode that was like, Spielberg only has Kaminski's shoot on film.

35:40 Like that's it's not digital, but I mean, I would I, I'm assuming that we're at least using like digital color grading and things like that on these films now. So like I there's something about the way that 2010's Spielberg into 2020 Spielberg is shot and graded that it gives everything such a plastic look that like there's a milkiness to the lights and you know, like there's no such thing as like a pure white, like it's always tinted, especially in this movie. There's like tons of Blues, tons of green filters on everything. And, and ironically, I think towards the end of the film, it's like filtered less.

36:21 You actually get much more natural tones on people's skin, but it's dark outside so you don't notice it as much. But. It it. Pulled me out of the movie and I remember it in the theater. It was during the America number, which they've updated now to happen during broad daylight, not at night time, you know, which again, we'll talk about some of these purposeful changes that I don't think work. And I just remember like I looked at the background kind of like behind the sets and I'm like, I think some of those buildings off in the background are CGII can't know for sure, but I think there's some CGI at play here. And it was, it was seamless in the way that like a lot of modern ILM stuff is kind of seamless where like I think ILM stuff just doesn't stack up the way it used to. And so it, it seemed to me like what we had actually created wasn't a seamless blend of like well done CGI and live action stuff in front of it.

37:21 It ended up having the effect of like everything kind of looks computer animated to me. Everybody's skin looks a little bit too plastic. Everything is a little bit too Milky for me. And it's an issue that I've had with Spielberg for years and years and years. And I think this movie is one of my, I guess least favorite examples of that. And so I like, and it may also be just because I'm so partial to the look of the original that there are elements of this one where I'm like, I, I know that you're trying to be different. It just doesn't, and it's sludge. By far my biggest detraction from the film. Sludge was the word he used to describe this. There's some sludginess there is. So Bob, you are bringing up the America sequence as your example of this.

38:18 Well, and I, I bring it up especially because that is purposely the most vibrant number in the movie. And so like, if that is like the apex of where we're going with how we're rendering colors and kind of like the crispness of things and everything else besides that is a more muted version of that. Then like I, I bring up America because it's like, if that's the most heightened we're getting with our, our colors and saturation and things like that, you know, let's compare that to the original. I just wish I had a bowl of popcorn right now to watch Patrick. This is May I ask how did you watch the movie? What do you mean?

38:59 Oh, like I watched it on Blu-ray. I. Thought. I thought you were going to say, may I ask how many films have you colour graded Bob? Yeah, right. Well, that's part part of why I wanted to bring this up with Patrick is that like I am obviously not a film maker and I don't have a lot of the technical terminology for this. And so even yesterday, I'm like, who out there is like me and and has this complaint about Janusz Kaminsky. And I'm like Googling like I hate Janusz Kaminsky just to see like what comes up. And I don't hate the guy. I think especially like Schindler's List is amazing. Saving Private Ryan. No other cinematographer could have made that movie look like that. But it's it's really this 21st century Kaminsky stuff. So, and I kept seeing this complaint of like, it was Milky, comma desaturated color. And I'm like, Milky is the word I've been looking for. There's like this weird creaminess to everybody's skin tones that it, it just, it loses definition and it looks a little smudgy and it it has the effect of making everything look artificial to me.

40:05 OK, so I'm. About to get schooled. I can see it in this man's face. I OK Kaminsky has shot every Spielberg movie from night from 93 onward. There are different eras of Kaminsky. 90s Kaminsky, of which there's only a handful of movies, does not look like current Kaminsky. There is then the early 2000s Kaminsky era where you've got where especially the diffusion filters really come out like like he isn't he's going really strong on especially look, I just saw a 35 millimetre print of minority Report last Saturday and Minority Report AI is where he's real as when those movies are just fucking glowing in a way that like the they're they are really strong looks that I and that I really like a lot. And and then you've got you got some of this into though, right there.

41:14 Those two are kind of their own thing. But then you still like got especially like Munich War of the Worlds in 2005. He is getting more desaturated there. But still, you know, it's look, even even before Yanish, Steve loved backlighting everything again. I have Empire of the Sun paused in my living room, shot by Alan Daviao, who also shot ETI and and look, it's just again, people in rooms with light pouring in through the windows. That's how Spielberg has always liked to shoot things. But Kaminsky gets he he gets glowier than than anyone had before.

42:02 And then you do get into the the 20 tens where it does feel like the the movie is do get grayer and they are moving a more desaturated. It's also an era where we should point out Spielberg is making a lot of like drama period pieces. You know, it's like Lincoln and Bridge of Spies and stuff like that. You know, movies where it's like, oh, it's like the Civil War are like Berlin during the Cold War and stuff like that where it's like, Oh yeah, Honestly, being kind of Gray does sort of make sense. And I am are like, you know, the Post. And here's the thing. I like the way all those movies look. I completely understand not vibing with the 20 tens era of Kaminsky Spielberg, because it is obviously it's they're all shot on film.

42:53 The only exception is the BFG is the only Spielberg movie shot digitally because I think they had to just because so much of the movie is animated right. And I believe even ready player 1 the like real world sequences are shot on film and but I get not clicking with those. But like they're shot on film, but it's still very high speed film. So it like you, you you barely see film grain, but it's still all shot on film. I get not being into that. I I have always felt and even noticed among people I've I I've spoken with is just anecdotal that even Kaminsky haters have to give it up for West Side Story being like, you know what?

43:37 This is an exception. Yanish just brought it so fucking hard on this film that that I'll like, I'll give him this one. And genuinely, I think this is like for me, the the like of of the the the Jonner Spielberg collaboration. It's like for me, it's like AI Minority Report, Schindler and this if we need if we need a 5 Munich also. I've, I've and I'm, I'm making a video about the, about the filmmaking in Munich soon.

44:21 And so I I'm going to be talking a lot more about that movie. But so here's the thing here, Bob, here's why your take is psychotic to me. Yeah, I love it because you're talking about it being Milky. We are living in an era that is while there are still plenty of great looking movies made every year, we are living in an absolute low point of visual quality of like cinematography in cinema. Because look plenty of great movies that are shot digitally. But the, I think the, the average level of like visual quality of talking purely aesthetics of, of average movies has really plummeted. And and because just so just whether it's like flat color grading, especially terrible looking exterior day scenes. It is just like so many movies just look like trash and it drives me insane.

45:21 And here's the thing. A movie that I I I really like that I think is quite good that came out the same year as West Side Story and was shot in the same neighborhood is John M Chews in the Heights. I think I think a very good movie. You put these two movies side by side in terms of like how they look. And it's like, yeah, that is that is a that is a movie that is very grey and very flat and has some some good visuals in there. But like, but but truly it's just like there is a lack of contrast and a lack of definition to so much of it. And and obviously it gets way worse and wicked. But West Side Story has such contrast and, and the, the images are so rich and so vibrant and America is just like, again, America is 1 where what I talked about when I was on the last time where I am like almost tearing up just because of like the like the, the power of the, the movement and the color and the music on on screen with when there's that shot near the end of the sequence when like everyone like rushes by the camera and, and then, and then it cranes up and like, the like the color of Anita's yellow dress with like the red under like like lining to it is so like those are colors that we don't see in movies anymore.

46:47 And the for instance. And The thing is, there are parts of West Side Story like the prologue that are very Gray and very desaturated. And those, and I think there that is used so deliberately where it's like, or, or like in Jet Song, where it's like, this is the rubble of this neighborhood. This place is being levelled to being built up into a fancy like Art Center for like for rich people. And these losers are fighting over piles of of like, you know, of, of rubble. This is like, like this is what this is like a like a burnt out like war zone basically. And then there are sequences like like the dance at the gym or America or, or any scene in Maria and Anita's apartment with all of you know, like the, the fabrics and sheets hang there that are so colorful.

47:46 And these people have like, really rich lives that with like, you know, actual, like, like passion and excitement and love there. And And so I think colour is deployed so smartly in this movie. I think this is like a staggering work of visual storytelling and of cinematography. And I think I think this is one of the best looking movies ever made. And so, so, yeah, so, so disagree. So equating this to like it is just so outrageously beautiful and and and so equating this to like, I don't know, some like fucking Netflix movie with with just like shitty streaming cinematography.

48:28 But you're when you're saying, oh, it's Milky and and doesn't look good. I'm like, well that's how a sludge again. I just watched first of all, 20. One you said sludge. But last night I watched the 2021 Mortal Kombat movie and that is Sludge. Yeah, well, like, first of all, I'm not going to argue sludge with Patrick. He made a whole video, like specifically about Marvel sludge. So like, no. Like I built my career on talking about shitty, desaturated, bland cinematography. West Side Story is the cure that that was like that when I saw this in theaters, I'm like the like, I, I felt like I was breathing oxygen for the first time in a year. I'm like, God damn it, like movies can look like this. And so all I'm saying is, Bob, you, you are not appreciating beautiful things.

49:21 And it sounds like you, you have a, a really sad life. And I'm, I'm just sorry for you now. You know, the The funny thing too is like this is one of those areas where I'm like, I also know that Patrick can talk technically about this in a way that I cannot, But like I have a very strong opinion about it. And I think that like there are still moments in this movie where like, I will never argue that Janusz is not a master of his craft, right? Like the compositions in this movie. You know, I I love the look of the 61 Maria song where it's like these insane over saturated neon lights on Tony as he goes down the street in with the rear projection behind him.

50:06 And then you get this burst of the like green, almost like stained glass that he comes across. And you get a moment like that in this one where he walks into the puddle. And if you it's, it's. So. Subtle because it's supposed to represent like the ripples of the water. But if you look really closely, there's actually a rig above that shot that's like gently rotating. And it's like, oh, dude, Giannis, you got that one right. Like there's moments, I think. Towards the end, the the puddle shot as it like a, a staggering like the, the, the, the, the scene when they're at the cloisters with like the, the light and the colours coming in through the stained glass and like changing colour on their faces.

50:51 Like this is this is stuff that we do not see in movies anymore. I think there there have been moments where I've shared an opinion and like Brad has said something that like cut me to the core and it's been like really hurtful. And I feel like you probably took me down harder than Brad ever did. But I don't feel like I just feel so convinced of my own rightness about this topic that I'm like, that's fine. Like I. Here's the things of opinion. What we are discussing right here is pretty much like aesthetic taste. And so this is not even like, again, there's no right or wrong, but this isn't even like, it's a storytelling thing that will like, that's easier to argue about.

51:37 Like is like, it's easier to like, like, you know, like argue or like change your mind about things. But it's like, look, if it's like when it comes to like colours, it's like, yeah, you like it or you don't like it, It's there's, you know, you can't be convinced to change your mind. Is there some sort of technical term though? And I'm not asking you to strengthen my argument for me, but like, do you understand what I'm talking about when I say that? There's like something about the way he's either diffusing light or adding filters or grading where it it almost makes like human skin look plastic at moments for me.

52:18 No. OK. Well, here's what I can say. It's there's elements of just like the color grade that are simply manipulated in the colors. But it's also so much of this, it's not as simple as being like, oh, it's this one thing because what Kaminsky is doing is so complicated where so much of it is also like the light where all of the exterior day scenes like it. You look at the behind the scenes photos and stuff and they have giant lights rigged up on cranes to basically create extra sun. And so that's so that, yeah, that's why you, you know, you look at like you look at America and it's like, oh, this is, there is still, even though this is the middle of the day, there is perfect edge lighting on everybody.

53:09 This is because again, also they just have a ton of money and like unlimited resources, but this is they, they can light exterior day scenes so immaculately and, and well, we've just been used to. So again, with digitally shot movies, exterior day is what they always have the most trouble with. That is all. Again, you, you look at, look at anything in, in Wicked or a Marvel movie or whatever. And it's like, even if it has good looking interior scenes, it just falls apart when they go outside. It just looks like, 'cause it's just, they just light it really, really softly and grate it in a really low contrast way. And it's, that's become the norm. And so West Side Story isn't trying to look realistic. It's, it's, it's, it's still doing like a magical movie lighting, but it's just like, oh, look, you can actually have magical movie lighting when they're outside as well. And so, so, yeah, it, it's, so you have, so it's the lighting, it's the color grade.

54:16 It is. I, I will say he's not going as hard on diffusion filters and like netting the lens as he did on Minority Report. So the, the, the movie is not glowing as much as other Kaminsky films have glowed. I but yeah, but it, it, it's look the Yonnish has it's I, I'm not even an expert on, on how he does what he does, but it is the thing of like, look, he, he almost only works with Spielberg and has such total mastery of what he is doing that he can that, that he, you know, the entire process from start all the way through post production, he can basically manipulate everything to get exactly what he's looking for.

55:04 And so I can't tell you what he does where, but but yeah, I, I, I, I sort of know what you're talking about in terms of some skin tones, but in general. But yeah, but I'm, I'm like, well, when you talk about the America sequence, I'm like, you've, you've lost me there because that's where you've lost me. Because, because, Because that is that does not look like the prologue does. Yeah, yeah, I get that. All right. So you can understand where I'm coming from, but I'm still generally wrong is what I'm getting here. No, no, I'm there, there. There's no right or wrong. It is. It is just simply, to me, a truly deranged opinion you should go to jail for.

55:45 Yeah, love it. Love. It, but it's not wrong. I can agree with you on that and still say like it's not. You could have. Captured like the dull grayness of what, the first scene Jet song, whatever, without also adding like that cheap looking blue ass filter on top of it. Like there's just some decisions in the color grade that bothered me. I can't believe we've been talking about this for 15 minutes. Brad, it's important you opened the floodgates here and this is clearly we have lost listeners at a staggering rate. No, they're, they're joining just for this. Part. That's what I'm saying. It's. Like a live broadcast, people are being like, yo, you got to listen to film and whiskey. Willem's this is is screaming at Kaminski. Kaminski Well, Brad, let me pause us here because we are almost an hour in.

56:34 I think we need to drink this whiskey. We'll come back and I will continue. My I have so many hot takes on this. I'll get into Spielberg and what I think he did poorly in this movie. After our whiskey break, Brad, let's hit pause. Let's drink some Penelope Riviera. What do you say? That was everything I could have ever hoped it would be. I knew I was hoping in a can. I didn't know quite what was in it, but that was a can of whoop ass. And and I think we need to drink whiskey. Let's get to it, Bob. All right, everybody, we kicked Patrick out so that we could come do a whiskey review today.

57:17 And we've got a brand that we haven't talked about in a while. It's the Penelope brand, which Brad, we have a great history with Penelope. So I'm very excited to dive into today's whiskey, which is called Riviera. Now Riviera is an interesting blend of whiskeys and I'm going to pull up the spec sheet just to make sure I say it all correctly. So Riviera blends 8 year American light whiskey with straight bourbon and is then finished in rose wine casks from Southern France. Now there's two things to note here. Number one, we have had the Penelope rose finish before and it is freaking phenomenal. So I'm very excited to return to anything finished in Rose from Penelope.

58:01 The other thing is American Light whiskey, which is a category that we've only dipped into maybe once before, It has a very different set of rules from bourbon or rye, kind of similar to what we have when we drink corn whiskey on the podcast. So American Light whiskey was developed kind of as a response to the growing trends through the 60s of people moving away from brown liquors and towards like vodka's. And so like, you know, a while back we did a review, gosh, this was back in like maybe season 3 Seagram's 7. And so one Ave. that some whiskeys took, like Seagram's 7 was to just basically cut their whiskey with what's called neutral grain spirits, basically vodka.

58:43 We're just blending vodka and whiskey. And hopefully people who like vodka will drink, drink this whiskey. The other route that they went was what's called light whiskey, which is you basically make it the same way you make whiskey, but you distill it to a way higher proof point. So like 160 to 190 proof. It basically strips a lot of the grain character out of it and then they age it in used barrel so that it doesn't get some of those like harsh tannins from the the barrel itself. So it's aged for much longer, similar to corn whiskey. And the resulting whiskey ends up tasting like this very wonderful matured whiskey. It's just made a completely different way. So this is 8 year light whiskey that's blended with straight bourbon.

59:24 I've been talking for two minutes straight. Brad. I'd love to hear your thoughts before we dive into this, Penelope. Yeah, I'm always fascinated when people take different experiences of whiskey and blend it together into something new. So I'm I'm intrigued. I have good feelings and vibes towards Penelope already. So yeah, I'm excited to get in, man. All right, now, you just finished drinking this before we jumped on the horn here, so you've got notes ready to go. I'm drinking it live. This is how we do it, folks. I'm going to start nosing this while Brad gives his notes and I'll tell him whether he's right or wrong. Yeah, as I got into the nose on this, it really had a ton of floralness.

1:00:05 There was like a, it lacked the Tang of a traditional Peach. It reminded me more of like a white Peach. There was table grapes. It had some citrusy kind of orange peel vibes. It's a really pleasant nose, but it's not anything that like makes me super excited. So I'm going to give it a 7 out of 10 here. I I think it's good. I'm curious to see where we go on the palate. Yeah, I actually share a lot of notes with you on this one. I'm going to give it a 7.5. But so with light whiskey, we've been finding it increasingly more popular in the market. I think during the whiskey boom when people just had nothing else to make, they were like, let's do light whiskey. And so now we're getting 1518 year aged light whiskey being released and that stuff is phenomenal. eight-year light whiskey.

1:00:50 That's nothing to sneeze at. But because it doesn't pick up as much of that wood character as a charred or a new charred barrel would have it, it just takes a lot older to really get that maturity. And the fact that they're blending this with straight bourbon, it doesn't say how old. So maybe four years, but I mean, it only has to legally be two years to be called straight bourbon. I don't know how old the actual balance of this whiskey is, and I think it smells a little bit youthful to me now. It's what's kind of masking that. Are these citrusy, bright notes that you're getting? There's a ton of like lemon peel, orange zest. There's just a ton going on here that keep it in that like bright floral headspace. I do kind of wonder though, if that youthful sense I'm getting on the nose is going to creep up in the taste. But for now, 7 1/2 on the nose.

1:01:43 Yeah, I think that the. Palate as I got into drinking it, it reminded me a lot of of of rum almost. It has a very cane sugar vibe going on. There's vanilla bean that white Peach sticks around for me. It's got a nice soft peachy tone without much of the tanginess. I it's a really pleasant whiskey. I once again, there's nothing that like makes me get out of my chair and get excited, but it's a solid experience to drink. I'll come up a little bit here. I'll give it a 7 1/2. Yeah, I'm going to stick right in the same realm that I was before. I'm going to beat a 7 out of 10 on this one. I think you're on point today, man. It, there is a lot of rum character to it because even an aged rum, you know, if you get like a three-year, 4 year aged rum, it's like, wow, they left this rum in the barrel for four years and it it stays in that kind of like simplistic sugar note.

1:02:37 This has that. And I will say, like part of the reason you use light whiskey is because it's supposed to be a lot softer and not carry those like tannic flavors with it. This definitely has a lot of like it has that kind of toasted barrel char ashiness to me, coupled with like a black tea tannic kind of quality, which if they were trying to avoid that, like it's it's definitely here for me. I don't think it's a bad whiskey, but I'm going to give it a 7 out of 10. The tea notes is right where I was going on the finish. To me, it's almost like you took a Peach tea and added like legitimate black tea to it and you get a little bit of that bitterness that comes through on the back end. The vanilla turns into like a vanilla protein powder more than like fresh vanilla, and the orangeiness turns into like an orange rind on the back end.

1:03:31 I don't dislike the finish. It definitely drops off a little bit for me. I'm going to give it a 6 1/2 here. I mean, I don't think that it is a mistake that they released this in the spring. This is definitely like a springtime floral kind of summer sipper. For me it's 94 proof, which I think is a perfect proof point if you do want to mix it with something and if you threw this into like an iced Peach tea in the summer. It'd be great. This is like a great porch sipper. Again, we're we're drinking it neat though. So those finished notes, everything I got on the pallet is sticking around on the finish there. You know, I don't know if they used used charred barrels or uncharred barrels for the light whiskey, but there's definitely some of that kind of tannic charred note going on in the back of my pallet. The vanilla is there, but like you said, Brad, it doesn't like overwhelm anything and the orange becomes more of like an orange pith rather than orange zest. So once again, I'm going to be at a 7 out of 10 here. I think I will give it a 7.5 on balance. It's a it's a perfect like 3 out of four-star whiskey for me. Where where you falling on the balance bread? I think I'll come down a little bit. I, I don't think there's enough complexity here for me to give it over A7 or even add a 7.

1:04:44 I'll give it a 6 1/2 out of 10. I I think it's relatively well balanced. There's nothing that like comes out of left field, but but there's nothing about the experience that I'm like really passionate about. S 6 1/2 now value in the illustrious state of Ohio. This will set you back $79.99. So it's an $80 whiskey. And that for me, Bob is, is kind of the breaking point on this. I feel like it's a 45 to $50 quality. You know. $87.00 with with tax I I'm going to give it a 4 1/2 on value Bob. Yeah, I'm at a 5 out of 10 on value I. Think this is for like a Penelope completest. Like if this is your brand, try it out. I will say, you know, this is the first thing we've had from Penelope in a while.

1:05:35 Thankfully, we have another bottle of something coming in the mail or they might cut us off after this review. But we really like Penelope and I especially like the Rose finish. If you just get the regular Penelope rose. I do think that that is because of the sweet notes of the bourbon. It's it's leagues better than this one is. Now, is this a fun summertime mixer? Absolutely. I don't know that would ever recommend paying $80.00 for it. So if Penelope is your thing, maybe you want to shell out for it. I'm going to give it a 5 out of 10 on value. And that brings me to a 34 out of 50. Brad, where are you falling on this one? Just a little bit lower at a 32 out of 50. All right. So we're averaging A33.

1:06:17 Or a 66 out of 100 and that puts us just shy of the 35 mark where we typically start recommending. I will say like, I don't think that this is a, if you just said like in a vacuum, good whiskey, bad whiskey, this is not a bad whiskey. I think the the price point is probably the biggest detractor from me giving it a thumbs up if we're just talking about the juice. Like, yeah, I would give this a hesitant kind of thumbs up if you find a pour at the bar or if you see it on a friend's shelf. It's definitely worth trying. Just can't recommend $80.00 for it. Yeah, the $80.00 is a little bit of a deal breaker. For me, everything you said is where I'm at, Bob. So yeah, look, look at us, man, on the same page.

1:06:59 We may not be on the same page about. West Side Story or Yanish Kaminsky. But we are on the same page about Penelope Riviera. That's right. I love it. All right, man, let's. Get back to talking to. Patrick Williams about West Side Story. What do you say? Let's get to. Let's get to it. All right, everybody, that was Penelope. Riviera, a whiskey that feels pretty similar to Bob's take on on a boy Janusz. Now I I thought it was a pretty. Good whiskey, Brad. I just don't. Think it was worth 80 something dollars is where we landed on that one. Now I will, I will get down off of my apparently wrong high horse about Yanis Kaminsky and his weird plasticine people in these movies. But you know what it is?

1:07:50 It's that the the people in Spielberg movies recently have looked like the characters in Robert Zemeckis's Welcome to Marwin, and that's out of here. Just get out of here, Bob. I just sort of like, don't know what you're talking about, Bob there. Are movies where I would agree with you and and I'm just like like that that that would be, I think a good observation on some films. But to be like West Side Story, I'm like, what, What are you talking about? Have I, I know you have glasses on right now, but I think maybe you need to like go check your prescription and update perhaps. I have glaucoma as well and that's what I'm starting. To realize, oh, are there any scenes you thought looked? Good, yes, and actually.

1:08:38 That's a thank you for. Teeing me up with that, I think one of the areas that I really loved what Spielberg did this time around is the sort of like the balcony, wherefore art thou Romeo scene. Because in the original, and I mentioned this then Brad, it's the first instance of like Tony and Maria where the movie freaking grinds to a halt because it's not the dance and it's not the cool little like ballet at the dance. It's the next scene and they have that shitty song and like it's just it's so bad where she's going like Tony, Tony. I hate that song. And in this version, it's like, Hey, let's pull out some great Spielberg wonners. And at one point they're like, you know, he's he dollies in across like the face of that grating to frame them even closer.

1:09:29 And I'm like, this is when you get Spielberg to move the camera. A scene like this, which has absolutely no forward momentum. He creates it. And I will also give points to Kaminsky because they for being a a much more lifelike set in that scene. They just straight up go stage lighting. And when she comes out on the balcony, it's like, let's just throw a spotlight on her. You know? It's like, let's just do that. Why not? And it's you don't. You don't even question, like, where's the spotlight coming from? Because it just makes sense for the dramatic stakes of that scene. So I thought that that was like a clear upgrade from the 61 version. Yeah. How about the dance of the?

1:10:10 Gym that's I am neutral on that. I thought that like. How in terms of like, is it an improvement or is it like worse? I think I'm in the nude. Like they're both they both serve their own purpose. And I love when they drop all the lighting out from behind them in the 61 version. And they kind of exist in this dreamlike state. Whereas in this one, it's like, let's physically remove them from the dance and put them behind the bleachers so that they can have that moment with each other. But they but they still both work. But they still. When they go into the. Bleachers like you can. See through the bleachers and nobody else exists. I thought that was like a really nice call back to the original and also in that sequence of the original when everyone. Else kind of fades out and they have kind of have just like these sort of like glowy lights appear. They do a similar thing here, but the and and they really use like Spielberg doesn't often shoot on anamorphic lenses and he does on this and but he kind of waits until until Tony and Maria see each other.

1:11:15 Then the anamorphic lens flares come in really hard. As in like it's, it's basically like stars appearing when these two see each other and then and, and like the light pouring in when they're under the bleachers. I'm just like this, like this is like as good as cinema gets right here. And like, this is like the light and color in that sequence again, I'm just like, this is so rich and vibrant and just. And the way that they are manipulating the lighting in an unrealistic way where it's like, it makes emotional sense, but there isn't really a real tangible diegetic reason for why the light is suddenly changing like at this moment, other than that they're feeling something.

1:12:03 I think that is staggering. And it like, I get kind of like choked up just by like how good the filmmaking is. And also, again, I feel something about this relationship because of the work being done. The the one thing I I'm. With you Patrick. I love the dance scene in the 2021 version. Love it in the original as well. The one change, Bob, you asked earlier, like what are some changes that we might not have liked? I know that. Spielberg was going for a little bit more. Of a movie feel. And so the moment that Tony and Maria see each other it it makes more sense in a movie for it to be a little more subtle, a little more like, OK, the clearly they notice each other, but nothing really changes.

1:12:53 The whole scene is still happening. I freaking love in the original when they see each other and it it's not immediate that everybody else disappears, but the way it's like this kind of radial blur. Where they like there's only focus in one part of the shot and everything else is out of focus. I freaking love that in this version. I like what they did though because. They they have. Like he films a lot of the dance scene with long lenses. And so you you have almost this kind of like observational documentary, like when Tony and Maria see each other, there's like layers of people between the camera and Tony and they're all walking by while these two. Figures like are are remain standing in place.

1:13:35 Yeah, yeah. I thought. I thought it was a really. Elegant way of kind of solving what is admittedly like a cheesy look in the original. That kind of like smudgy focal thing. It was cheesy but I freaking loved it. I don't know what it is, but that's like one of the things from the original I loved the most. All right. Do I get into my Spielberg hot? Take. Or do we save that for the end of the episode? No, now let's RIP that Band-Aid. Off do it. OK. My overarching complaints about. Musicals in the 21st century Brad this is well documented on our podcast is that I think generally speaking this does not apply to Spielberg but like generally speaking, film makers have forgotten that the best tool in their. Like.

1:14:28 Arsenal the best weapon? In their arsenal is putting the camera down in a fixed spot and simply panning back in. Like just swinging the camera back and forth as Fred Astaire or Gene Kelly moves along a horizontal plane in one space because you get the the camera stops being a distraction and you get the full effect of that person's kinetic dynamism. And I think that like when you watch classic MGM musicals. So I mean, unless you're doing like Busby. Berkeley stuff like. So much of it is just like, here's the camera, we're going to go this way, we're going to go this way. We're not even tracking really.

1:15:10 We're just kind of like panning back and forth and it creates an incredibly dynamic moment because the performers are so dynamic now. I think we've also lost like really, really great triple threat actor singer dancers in cinema like since the studio system collapsed. But I think that so much of what film makers have done to try to compensate for that is like, we're going to get really. Inventive with the. Camera and how we move the camera within musical numbers. And I think a lot of times it has the opposite effect where it's like, this would have been better if I had more of a sense of the movement of the dancers and the camera wasn't taking away from that.

1:15:54 So enter Spielberg. Perhaps. The greatest mover of the camera we have ever had. There are moments in this movie where it's like, that's an awesome touch. I just talked about the balcony scene. The way he moves the camera in that scene gives it a forward momentum that it never had before. Even in like the the dance at the gym, there's a moment where like Riff swings Graziella like head first towards the Sharks girls and you get this like whip pan and like immediate push in as she almost like smacks her in the face. And it's like, that was a really cool shot. You know, the moment in cool where they're fighting over the gun and they slam their hands on the ground with the gun and you get the like tilt down.

1:16:42 It's it's a really cool and dynamic shot. There are other times in this movie, and I guess this is the furthest I'll go with the criticism where I'm like, I wish Spielberg would kind of just like put the camera on a tripod once in a while and let the kinetic energy of the dance tell the story without him feeling the need to assist with the camera movements. That's like, that's the farthest I'll go with it. I still think that like he moves the camera in incredible ways in this movie. I just kind of wonder sometimes, like is he overly cocky in the way? That he moves the. Camera or do you think that maybe he didn't trust himself enough because this is his first musical, to kind of leave it alone? Sometimes it just feels like there are moments in this movie where the camera's a little busy for me. That's as far as I'll go with it, Brad. Maybe not as hot as I wanted it to be. I would say at this point, Bob, I think you. Do need to keep it cool?

1:17:42 I think that a world where. You know, David tried to kill 2 Goliaths in a row, we wouldn't know who David was anymore. So it's probably wise. You've slung your stones at Kaminsky. Hold back on Spielberg a little bit. I I will say to. Mildly defend Bob here. I can understand this take even if I don't really agree with it. While the commit while like the lighting and color take, I just thought was like deranged. Yeah, just just. Deranged stuff. Just like like that's like you, that's that should be illegal to say. Like like I'm adapting in real time. That's what we're, Yeah, but no.

1:18:29 We need to suspend. Bob's First Amendment. Rights because of that take, I mean, we. Probably should have done that a long time ago, but sure I but it is the thing like the camera does move a lot in this movie and I, I I can again, I don't agree, but I understand the argument for maybe chill out a bit more. I, I I will say that. So I, I, I. Think this movie. Contains several of the most. Staggering musical numbers ever put on film just once I I rewatch frequently because I just again, it's that you know the it's it's that West Side Story combo of some of the greatest music ever written. Shout out Leonard Bernstein.

1:19:22 And then just you know, our our greatest living visual storyteller on knowing how to just how to capture movement to In Sync with with this music to just an astounding degree there, especially when you look at 21st century musicals. It is amazing how long the shots. Are. In this compared to literally everything else you look at like, I mean, especially, you know, Rob Marshall, one of the only people allowed to make Hollywood musicals because he made Chicago 1st and won an Oscar. And then they're like, well, now you make half the musicals that exist.

1:20:08 But it's like, yeah, it's, it's, you know. It's weird looking at Chicago now and it's like, Jesus Christ, this guy came from the theater and he's cutting like every second on like just like like the body parts of the dancing. And and then you, you look at the sort of like there, there are parts in America and the, the dance, the gym where he just the camera basically stops moving and he just holds on a really wide shot that lasts for like sometimes up to a minute. And it is and, and like, and constantly it is the shots are wide. You can see not just a body, but many, many human bodies all moving together.

1:20:52 You can see the choreography. And I think it's this, look, what I will say about Spielberg's musical numbers is the same thing I'll say for his action scenes where the guy just like knows when the. Camera should move. When to cut, He just has this innate savant, like, understanding of this medium better than basically anybody. And so, yeah, So all these musical numbers, like, even though the camera is very active and it's doing a lot, there's never a point where I can't tell what's going on for me. There's again, for sure, this is just me. There's never a point where what the camera is doing does not connect with with what the. Music is doing.

1:21:40 And in general, it's something where I think the he makes the camera a really incredible part of the choreography, as if it is another dancer. And I think it is so beautifully In Sync with what the dancers are doing. And of course, you've got something like tonight, tonight. Is it tonight tonight or just tonight? I think it's just tonight, OK? I yeah, don't. Write. Write tonight. Tonight, tonight is the smashing pumpkin song and with, with, with a great music video. But I but tonight, because that that song, it obviously it it does, it's not a dance number.

1:22:21 And so the camera there is doing so much storytelling, especially in that sequence where, yeah, Tony and Maria are separated by like like the grading and the fire escape for so long until finally like Tony vaults over the the side and they are like, like together there. And it is just, it's so elegant and so impressive. But then you just, you've just got like America, you just have this, you know, this huge group of people in brightly colored clothing just dancing in in the middle of the street as the camera elegantly, you know, cranes up and that and I'm like almost reduced to tears because it's, it's just so beautiful. Or you got I look, I could do this all day. I, I, I promise I will, I will limit myself. But you've got the beginning of the dance, the gym where you have this insane shot.

1:23:14 I where it fought like it. It's got Tony, sorry, not Tony Bernardo and Anita and Mariardo and and and and Chino as they're walking down the hall and then and it's like on a steady Cam and it follow goes back to them and then pans with them. And then they go through the doors into the gym. And then it turns into a crane shot that swoops up over everyone there and then lands down on almost like on the floor right as the dancers like, land perfectly into frame. And then it like dollies left and like, like, it keeps it it it is what he's doing here. Is just like again.

1:23:56 In the 21st century, there are no musical numbers on this level. You know, almost all of cinema, this is this is really like, this is some of the best shit ever. And and I, I again, I could go on about it all day. And again, because it's like, look, if you're going to do West Side Story, if you're going to do these songs that have already been executed so well, you'd better, you'd better. It's you know, it's like, it's like the, the, the the seat on The Simpsons where, you know, where Barney picks up the, the glass of beer that's come out of a bowling ball and goes, this is better be the best beer I've ever had. You got lucky and it's it's just that it's. Like, yeah, OK, OK.

1:24:44 Good job. You made the best musical numbers of all time. OK, OK, We'll, we'll we'll allow it. I think that this highlights like. For me it's it's the difference. Between two film makers and I, I really did feel the need in our last episode to kind of go to bat for Robert Wise as a person with a visual sensibility because I don't think he gets credit for that enough. And so like, you know, this is really simplistic and this is not the correct terminology, but when I think about like shot composition, I think about if we're imagining a shot like a still frame, how are we composing it within the frame without the movement of the camera involved? Now I know that that is part of what we consider shot composition.

1:25:25 But like, I think when I'm talking about Spielberg, I think I think of it almost as like shot choreography versus what wise was doing a lot, which was stationary camera. The whole background of the frame is a gigantic tenement building. We will see, you know, coming up from behind a mound of rubble, 3 sharks. And it will be the coolest framed shot you'll ever see. And I think that there's like, there are moments in this movie where I'm like, I'm with you. Like he does stop moving the camera and it adds it adds weight to those moments because you almost notice that we have stopped for it's like we've been hurtling through this thing. Why are we stopping right now?

1:26:05 What do I need to pay attention to? I also think that there's like a level of confidence that someone like a Robert Wise doesn't typically get credited for to just be like, you know what, we're going to make the coolest shot of all time. It's going to be inside of this tree line in the Sound of Music with Maria just weaving through these trees. Like it's just, it's freaking gorgeous. And the the level, like the interplay between what's stationary and what's moving, I think is just as dynamic as what Spielberg does by, like, moving the camera through a crowd of people. Yeah, This is why. I'm, I'm not coming in here being like, oh, the original or sorry, the, the Spielberg 1 is better because it wouldn't exist without the original.

1:26:51 And I don't, I don't think it replaces it. But then there are things that you look at where I'm like, Oh yeah, I like the Spielberg. Version of G Officer Krupke is. Just like I I think so much better and so much more fun than the original 1. Yeah, it's. It's that's. Dude and and I. Will you know what? I have one person on my side with this, Your friend Sidant. I read his review because I was like, I want to see what he said about this. He also agreed with me that like something gets lost in the Officer Krupke number here and I don't and and you know, in his review, this is something that like, I don't know if it's a casting thing or if it's a Spielberg thing.

1:27:37 He makes great note of the fact that there's not a level of individuality to The Jets and Sharks the way there are the way there is in the 61 version where those guys have very distinct faces. I know what every single one of those people looks like. And so by the time you get to like cool or whatever it is, you fully know each of their personalities. And I felt like this time around, Officer Krupke was just like it. It was just missing something to me. And Brad, I'd like to hear your take 'cause I think you actually mentioned Officer Krupke to me when we were talking about it yesterday. I think Officer Krupke and I. Am not as familiar with the original 61 film.

1:28:18 To me it felt like they tweaked it just a little bit so that rather than in the original where it feels like all the different characters they introduce themselves to, you know, there's the judge and the psychologist and the social worker and so on, in the 61 version it feels like they are. All saying the same. Thing about the kids the teens whereas in this one in the 2021 version it feels more accurate to real life the the real life justice foster you know, teen legal. System, if you will.

1:28:59 Where? You know, the judge says, oh, well, they don't need to be in jail. They need to see a psychologist. And the psychologist says, oh, well, they they need to see a social worker. And the social worker says, oh, no, they need to go to jail. And and it feels way more accurate to the dysfunction of our governmental system in trying to help kids. And so I I really thought that that small change paired with the a little more dynamism in the movement of the camera in the in the dance. I also don't as soon as you said that the characters in the original. 1. Felt more distinct. I was like, yeah, because I don't care about the main characters in the movie, whereas in this one I care so much about the classic problem.

1:29:45 Too. Like, you know, I think we had this. Conversation, Brad, even. With like Beauty and the Beast, there are just certain stories where your main characters are kind of fundamentally the most boring characters in the movie. And like it, it's the, it's the supporting characters that make the movie. And that was especially true in the 61 version. I think to some extent it's true here. I I cannot allow you to. Impugn my favorite 90s Disney film I I have never once. Said. That the main characters of Beauty and the Beast are extraordinarily boring. You might have said that, and I will allow you to have your own wrong opinions.

1:30:25 I just needed to be known that I did not say. All right. Well, for the record, yeah, Brad prefers to spend time. With the beasts whining throughout that whole film. But let let me let me steer us into this. I think it's time to think 1. Can I say 1 brief thing? About Officer Krupke, please. I do. Agree. That by the other members of The Jets and the Sharks do feel a little more they they pop a bit more in the 60s version. I totally feel they feel a little sludgy in this. Version they they they do as much as like there are. Some like good faces there. I can't tell you most of their names. I, I will say, and I think this ties into what Brad was saying about Officer Krupke is that they just feel. More.

1:31:18 Believably, like actual gangs in this one, like this, like this sequence is set in a police station. It's like, yeah, like, yeah, like even just little things like, oh, Riff has a couple tattoos, stuff like that where I'm like, you know, oh, I believe that these guys actually now, you know, have, you know, have been arrested multiple times. Actually, again, these are not just like dancing, like, you know, colourfully costumed, quote UN quote like gang members. It's like, Oh no, these are actually people who have like, you know, who are like, like, you know, like been like, you know, falling through the system and stuff like that.

1:32:04 And so the stuff that that that G Officer Krupke like is about like it does actually feel like it's more directly connected to these characters as as they're presented here, even though I don't feel like I know these guys as well as the ones in the 60s film. But also, and maybe it's just that I've watched the movie a bunch of times and I was just noticing it like on this rewatch. I just think the choreography of that number here and the way it's shot and the way it uses just the set of the police station is just so fun. Dude when they lift up the bench. And use the bottom of the bench as the bars. It's so freaking good dude.

1:32:45 It's great. And and also that one part where there's the one. Woman who is also just holding there what is cuts to her just watching them like what I do like the thing of without ever like drawing a lot of attention to it. It's a rare thing in a musical, but it is almost as if like like. A bystander is there being. Like, are they singing and dancing right now? Yeah, like it. Well, and early in the. Movie there's a there's like a. Diegetic moment where Bernardo is singing and he, he, and is it Krupke or what's the lieutenant's name? Shrank. Shrank. Sorry, I think it's Shrank. He goes, Oh, he's a boxer and a crooner, and you're like, oh, like this is a this is a diagenic moment. He's really singing in a musical. Is that?

1:33:35 Is that the part after? The prologue when they just start and I, I don't know what the name of the song is, but when they're just sort of like singing the the song in Spanish national anthem, yeah and which. Again, is just. One of those little touches where it's like, oh, right, yeah, these, these do. These are believably immigrants. And The Jets are explicitly presented here as they are racist in a way where in the 60s one, it is much more like, oh, right. It's just it's two rival gangs. It's like, no, these guys are just harassing immigrants. Yeah, Yep. Can I 100% I I? Want to talk? More about that later. Bob I. Don't want to interrupt you though. I know you. You wanted to go. No, Brad, I I think that's the perfect thing to do 'cause I, I. Have something to say on that as well. Let's let's make sure we talk about the cast though, because I feel like we're running a little bit long because of my Yanish takes.

1:34:24 I I will shut up, I promise. No, no, it's not. It's not you. It's me. Triggering. You I I think that maybe the most. Fun. Way to do this is like, yes, let's give some small notes on each person, but I want to just say like, are we picking the 61 person who played this character or the 21 person who played this character? And I think we have to have the the briefest of disclaimers about the Ansel Elgort stuff. We've talked about it before with Baby Driver. Ansel Elgort seems like a real creep, which is in many ways a bummer because I think a lot of people now, now that he is like an established creep, want to kind of crap on his sometimes wooden seeming acting style. I've always liked Ansel Elgort.

1:35:10 I will, I will go out on a limb and say I like him in this movie. I think that hey, Tony's given much more to do in this movie, but it's it's not a secret that Richard Baymer in the original is just not really that good of an actor. He's a pretty face and he is he's a gorgeous man, but like, you know, that's about all he is. He's also not even doing his his singing in that. Movie No. So like, I think this is a pretty easy Ansel Elgort victory, especially when you consider like I, I, I watched Cool and then paused it and rewatched the entire number again because he is basically having a dance battle with Mike Feist, who is a trained Broadway performer.

1:35:53 Ansel Elgort, Not a singer, but does a great job singing well. He went to La Guardia High School. He's from Manhattan. But no, Elgort has been a like musical theatre like trained guy for he wasn't like a Broadway star, but I but it is the thing of like in cool. I think he and and you, you see some of it in baby driver as well. He moves so well. He's also very tall, has long limbs. But then I'm like, damn, I I wish he got another dance sequence because he is and and and you know, he has like he gets to to move in something's coming. But I do think he he's just a he's a he's a physically.

1:36:38 I think he's very good on screen and I wish he got to do more of it because I think he's very good and cool. It is something again, putting aside, you know, allegations or whatever, just looking at his performance, I feel like he's so often brought up in this movie is like, Oh, everyone's great, Just a bummer. L Gord is there like sucking in the middle of I'm like, I think, I think he's maybe like. Of the of the principles I. Think he's maybe by default the weakest, and I think he is totally so I think he's pretty good in this movie. I think Tony is the nature of the character, always the least interesting character in the movie. And and I think I think he's pretty good. I think look, you know, he has several big songs. I I think he hits them all.

1:37:28 I believe the Tony Maria relationship. He he works for me and I I you know, like, like you just said, Bob, I think he has an upgrade over Richard Beamer. Yeah, IA 100% He I would put him at. Like AB, like he's a really strong B. Nothing about his performance draws me out of the experience of the film. Also a quick Fact Check, both Timmy C and Ansel Algort LaGuardia High School. Very good. Patrick, Hey, you know I'm here to. Give New York trivia. That's right. Rachel Zeigler is an interesting. One for me. She's also now become the subject of like way too much online hate for seemingly no reason, just for existing and being Snow White. And I will say that I would choose Rachel Zegler over Natalie Wood for 95% of this movie. Obviously Natalie Wood didn't do her own singing. Rachel Zegler is a phenomenal talent and I think a a better actress for most of the movie except for the key final scene when Tony dies.

1:38:37 I think that like, she's a little green still. And I think it shows in that moment where, you know, I came on the last episode and I raved about Natalie Wood where I was like, I, I kind of didn't like her until that last scene. She freaking nailed it. And so like, that's the only part where I would say I think Natalie Wood actually kind of beat Rachel Zeigler for me. You can probably just CGI her in. Just kind of scrub it in. Yeah, like deep fake, right? Yeah, there's also the thing worth pointing out. And we'll. We'll bring it up when we discuss Bernardo as well, where it's like, you know, 1 is like a Latina actress and and 1 is a a white person basically for sure. So there's that as well.

1:39:18 But like, I, I think, look, I, I also, I don't know Rachel at all, but we have some mutual friends. And so by all accounts, like, I'll just say really lovely person. But I, I, and I actually, I, I became a fan of her before this movie came out because she appeared as a guest on, on my friends have a comedy show called the George Lucas Talk Show. And she was a guest, She's a recurring guest on that show. And I I was like, Oh my, she's so cool and like she hasn't even and like I haven't even seen her act yet, but I think it like what? Just watching this again yesterday. I'm just like, I think she's like, this is like. Kind of a.

1:40:00 Revelatory like debut performance. I think I I she like you, you love to see an introducing credit, which we don't get very often. And I'm just like, right. This is just like an instant star. She just nails it and is so good. And I, I, I do agree that I, I think the one, the one places I think Natalie Wood is stronger in that final scene. But in general, I'm like, yeah, I'm, I'm giving it to Ziegler Absolutely, for sure. Brad any. Any Ziegler comment you guys? You guys nailed it. I I can't add anything. I truly I as I was watching it so many times throughout.

1:40:45 I thought that. Her and Al Gore's chemistry was great, brought a brought the relationship to life, but also her and Anita, Ariana Dubose, like them two together, just had an electricity to the way that they had this sisterly relationship that I I thought Zeigler really was incredible. OK, we've talked. About Riff quite a bit, so I. Think this is this could be a very quick who you picking Tamblin or Feist? Go Feist. Feist. I take. Feist as well, but it's close like I don't.

1:41:25 I don't hold it against Tamblyn. He was really good. If Tamblyn had some tattoos, would you pick him it? Is. I I, I think, I think. Bobby, you said it. Earlier that just Like Tamblyn just didn't have as meaty material to play. And So what? Feist has more to work with, but Riff is just so much more compelling as a character. Like Tamblyn is great to watch. He's a great dancer, love to see him and anything and it it's just like like Feist is like a fully realized character who is just like, he's like electric in this movie. Yeah. Now Bernardo is a really tough one for me and.

1:42:05 We obviously are getting back to the like George Shakiris, a very white person in very brown face in the original, right? Like he played riff on the West End, was found there and then offered Bernardo. And so like, yes, I, I, I get that. What is the difficult thing for me is that they play this character in 2 completely different ways. And it's because Kushner gives Bernardo like the boxing back story where Shakira says Bernardo is like a, he's a charmer. Like he's just, he, he wins you over. And he is so charismatic. He's and this version of Bernardo is like he's a hot head, but you also like you completely understand why he feels so defensive about the people that he loves. And so I think they're both really excellent. And and Brad, I'd love to hear if you had to pick. 1. Who would you go with?

1:42:59 Because I really do think there's an argument for both of them. Yeah, I think that 2021. Bernardo has a little more umph to his character there. I think he I think the character works better as a charmer. And so I like I think that's why I would lean towards Shakira's, but I I don't have a that's not a strong take from me. But I yeah, I do think that the character just works better as a smooth talking when people over with his charm kind of guy than this stocky like I'm going to beat the crap out of you now.

1:43:40 I will say the one place where that like is lights out when Ansel Al Gore is standing at the at the brawl and he just takes the punches and he takes like 8 or 9 punches in a row. You feel that because of who is playing Bernardo. And I do think that that adds to the the elements at the end of the film there. Patrick who we going with Alvarez or Shakira. This is tough. I I. Think I'm I think I have to go Alvarez. It also again, it just, it just feels wrong to me to be like, I'm gonna pick a guy in brown face. I just like, I I don't want to get cancelled for that look. I despite the problematic nature of the casting, I love Shakira's in the original and especially like as a dancer like in in America, which I think is, is I think my favorite number in both films.

1:44:39 I just the way Shakira's moves, it's just one of my favorite things in cinema. I love that. But Jakiris is my favorite stuff that he has in the in that movie is mostly when he's not talking. It's mostly just him as a physical presence and just like his his really like his great eyes and his dancing. And in the 2021 film with Alvarez, I'm like, I believe his relation, his protectiveness of his little sister and his relationship with Anita like more and and his protectiveness for his whole community that comes through so strongly there, which I think just again deepens the entire film. And so I've got to go Alvarez.

1:45:30 There you go. All right, last one and then we can kind of touch on. Minor characters, if we want to, is Anita. Now, this is an incredibly difficult one because we're talking about two people who both won the Oscar for their performances. I think that I will throw the gauntlet down by saying. Ariana Dubose. Is incredibly good in this movie, but I think the most revelatory thing about revisiting. 61. West Side Story for me was watching the ways that Rita Moreno as an actress, whether it's within a song or during dialogue, is given a very tied to its moment written character and adds so much color to that character that it's like I I know for a fact that if Tony Kushner handed Rita Moreno this script in 61, we would have gotten a performance that is equivalent to what Ariana Dubose gave in this movie. I don't know if I put Ariana Dubose in the 61 version if she could have made a character that had less to do on the page as compelling as Rita Moreno did.

1:46:45 So I'm I'm going to have to go with the OG on this one. Same. Yeah, they're both. Fantastic, they're both. Stand outs in each movie. But Moreno is the stand out in the 61 film, like hands down. And also, you know, bonus points for be being so good as a completely different character, like in her 90s in the 2021 film, right. Yeah, Rita Bruno, just great, really great. Yeah, in in both films she is better than the person. In the other film, that's true.

1:47:25 She she, she is way. Better than Doc, I'll give her that much. For sure. Yeah. Rita Moreno Is Doc better than Doc? Rita Moreno is. Anita better than Anita? I'll take it. I I will say I. Was very happy to see Corey Stahl. Show up as Lieutenant Shrink. He is a super underutilized actor who I fell in love with as an actor when he was on House of Cards. I thought he was just freaking phenomenal on that show. And then all he's really done in Hollywood seems to be shitty Ant man movies and I just wish that we gave my guy more more chances. I I love Corey Stoll he should be in way more stuff. He's he's an alum of the college I went to. And so, OK, no shout out guy who went to College in Ohio. That's right.

1:48:13 But I all of us. But yeah, I, I actually, when I rewatched it for this, I was like, I forgot he was in it and I was like, hey there, there he is with hair. He kind of feels a great hairpiece. I have never seen him in. Anything he kind. Of reminded me of like a. Slightly taller. A little bit like lankier Tom Hardy. Interesting. I don't know if that vibes. With you guys, but. That's like I found myself a few. Times being like. Wait, that's not Tom Hardy. Well, come on, Brad, I Corey soul is great. Does your? Deranged take Yeah, does. I mean, he's, he's like a. Great. Like. You know, New York actor does a lot of theatre.

1:48:56 He's on a lot of TV shows. He is I he's never not good. Love it. Brian Darcy James shows up. In a thankless role as Officer Krepke. Good to see him again. We've only talked about him in in his supporting turn in Spotlight on this. He's so good in Spotlight. Nice to see him again. He's real good, Real good in Spotlight. Guys, I think that we've arrived at the point Brad wanted to touch on something before we get out of here. Brad, you, you told me to hit pause on a conversation earlier. I'd like to hear you get up on your soapbox. Both Patrick and I have done it, so it's your turn now. Well, here's it kind of happened, Patrick, when you were just. Railing Bob about Kaminsky?

1:49:44 Is that what I was doing? I mean, you know, wow. I feel. Violated what? What I. Realized and I I don't totally know how I made the connection. It but as you were talking about the color and the lighting that that's what it was you're talking about the color in the America scene. It made me It made me think about the. Jets. And it made me think about how The Jets are consistently portrayed and, and blacks and Grays and jeans and right, they're just kind of dirty and they look like the concrete rubble that they're trying to protect. And it, it got me starting to think about the overall messaging of this movie specifically. And what I really love about this movie is that when you think about who The Jets are, like, The Jets are the final children, the final generation of a bunch of poor Irish, Italian immigrants that came to the country 100 years before, right?

1:50:55 The Puerto Ricans are new to America. They are bright and vibrant and hopeful. And they? Have this deep desire to claim all that America has to offer. And the women see all the hope. And in America you see them with their brightness and vibrancy and they want to buy things on credit and they want to get these apartments and and all these things. And yet the men see the danger of America. They are fighting The Jets. They're on the streets scrapping for a living. And so they are afraid that if they stay here in America, they're going to end up like The Jets. That's what their ultimate outcome is. And I think that.

1:51:42 The movie takes on this fascinating reflection of like you are seeing the end stage of white immigration in America. And it's very clear that some white immigration has gone on to have power and money and prestige and all the things. And yet some elements of white immigration has ended up in the slums in under the rubble of of the city. And now we get to look at it from the new immigrants to. America. And what they are trying to get out of it and what they're afraid of and what they're hopeful for. And I just, I just found myself appreciating the movie even more.

1:52:24 So to say that it's it's not just The Jets being racist. Was that like they are? That is very clear, but it's also like they are a mirror that the. Sharks and. The Puerto Rican community as a whole are looking into to say man like, like, we don't want to become like them. How do we avoid that? And like, I don't, I don't know if I'm just completely off my rocker with this take, but that's been like noodling around in my brain ever since you were talking about Kaminsky and America and color, color schemes for the movie. Yeah. I mean, I think that for me the the biggest win. That you get by Kushner kind of adding stakes right from the beginning is that he immediately establishes not not just that like this is a a zone under construction, but that like this entire neighborhood is going to be leveled. We are fighting over like this is the last gasp of what you know for The Jets like what my parents and grandparents were here for like I'm fighting this to the death and for the Sharks it's like this is the first place we've been able to call home.

1:53:38 We have nothing else we want to be able to say that like this is our territory now. And so it it almost has this sort of like, you know, doomed who's going to be the last one off of the planet before the asteroid crashes into it kind of a thing. Like there there is this this weightiness that's added to it in a way that the 61 version doesn't have. And it also helps explain everybody's hot headedness and why they're so it like so volatile all the time. It's because there's this sort of like ticking time bomb situation happening apart from their tension with each other, it's their tension with like the city around them that's crumbling. I just I think that like adding that it, it really does remind me in a lot of ways. You know, we talked about the color palette of the original mirroring like do the right thing. But I think in terms of like dramatically, this one kind of mirrors do the right thing because you have that sort of like there's, you know, it's the hottest day of the year. There's a ticking time bomb.

1:54:36 This is going to explode eventually. You get that sort of same dramatic stakes from the fact that like we're leveling this to build Lincoln Center and I think once again, that is what gives more. Depth to Tony and Maria's relationship is that this isn't just about two kids who fell in love. Like because of how Riff and Tony are situated, you can actually tell that Tony is trying to lift himself up beyond the place that he came from, which is what all of the whole Puerto Rican community is trying to do as well. And so the the idea that we could work together and fall in love in order to better both of our lives it it.

1:55:20 Mimics this. Idea that if The Jets, if The Jets and the Sharks were willing to work together, that they could all work together to lift themselves up. And yet what do they get brought down by? Well, petty jealousy and evil racism and this territorialness that sinks the entire ship, the, the 2 standard bearers of the two communities are dead at the end of the movie. And it's their hatred that also sinks the rising ship of Tony and Maria, a partnership that could have represented cooperation between two racially diverse communities.

1:56:03 And I'm, I'm just like, I, I don't know. I'm just like geeking out about this. I think it's a fascinating subtext to the movie that I I like I didn't think about before until we sat down and talked about it today. Yeah, a thing that I was thinking about on this re watch is. Also, I feel like everything I'm about to say is like really obvious stuff, but whatever, I was thinking about it anyway. But I'm like, I look, this has several of the best songs like ever written in it. But I really think the most important song in the whole thing is Somewhere, because fundamentally West Side Story is basically just about a whole bunch of people who all they really.

1:56:48 Want is to belong. Somewhere and that's it, whether it's the the The Jets who are just desperately trying to hold on to like the only thing they have as it's as they that they think is being taken away from them. Obviously the Puerto Rican just want a, a, a new home. It's why I, I think the like the, the, the changes to to anybody is, is one of the like, like the smartest changes, like in this version, because they just want to belong like in a group. And, and so and like somewhere basically just like lays out like this. This is like this is just what the the entire story is about.

1:57:31 Just like there's a place for us and and and I think all of these beyond truly beyond just like, you know, I think, you know, Spielberg and Yanish's like staggering work here and a really extraordinary cast. I think what makes this movie like really special and the the places where it does, I think exceed the original R Kushner's changes like two of these scripts that just deepen that central idea even more. All right, guys, I think it's time for us. To get into our final segment. Of the day which?

1:58:12 We call Let's make it a double. We're near the end of the episode, so thanks listening to the film and. Whiskey Show. Let's have another film with this one, even if it's struggling. It's the final segment of the day now. Let's make it a double now. I've been thinking through this whole episode. What would I pair West Side Story 21 up with? You know that's not the obvious OG 61 version. I'll kick us off because, Patrick, I can see you have forgotten that we do this every time. So I'm gonna give you. I've got my answer. You got it. You know what? Let's do this, then let's give Patrick. I don't know if you. Wanna first dibs here? I don't know if you wanna keep poking Patrick, man. It's.

1:58:54 OK, it's OK. We. Like all of our animosity is in the past. Yeah, we're we're like The Jets to the shots at the very end. After several people have died. We're walking together down the street, holding the corks as Brad's as Brad's dead arm. Flops over, you come. Over and grab his arm next to me as we March him down the street. Yeah, Patrick, go right ahead. What's your Let's make it a double here, Mad Max Fury Rd. If my children were not sleeping immediately above. Me right now I would be screaming witness me as loud as I can Brad I I I'm honored to hear that I.

1:59:41 The The only thing that could have made the ending of this movie better is if. Right before shooting, Tony Chino just like sprayed silver all over his face, then came out in the street. It is. It is truly in terms of like. Major studio films in the 21st century. I I really think those are, at least for me the 2 like most, purely thrilling. Films on just. On a film making level and especially just in terms of like like pure cinema, like I said a million times, movement and light and colour.

2:00:23 And music. And all of those things that these. Movies are so different, but they are like, I really struggle to think of two films that that offer such transcendent, just cinematic experiences. And I'm like, if I, if I spent like, I don't know, like 4 1/2 hours watching the two of those back-to-back, I'd, I, I'd feel like I could just run through a brick wall. Yep, Patrick I so I did not see Fury. Road in theaters. I'm have. Have you had a chance yet? I have it. Trust me when I say the moment I see it. Showing anywhere you got to come to New York, a place here like every year. That might be our next trip, Bob, so just to see. Fury Rd.

2:01:10 I sometimes just. Based on life scheduling, I can only watch a. Movie at like 5:30 AM before I start the work day and all that, right? I love that Patrick appreciates that. I'm sure that Patrick has watched a movie at 5:30 AM at some point in his life. So I got up one day and I watched Mad. Packs. Fury Road for the first time in my life from like 5:30 to 7:30 and no joke this is the only time this has ever happened in my life. I texted my buddy Steven, who I know loves Fury Rd. It was like, bro, I, I need you to come watch Fury Rd. with me tonight. I literally have not been able to stop thinking about it. Like, I'm like doing dishes, like just immersed in the world.

2:01:53 And he came over that night and I watched that movie twice in one day. Let's go. I love it, dude. Oh. My gosh. I. Well, I guess I'll come. Down off of that mountaintop for my let's make it a. Double unless Brad, do you want to go first? Yeah, I'll go. I I think did last time when we did the. OG did I? Choose. Do the right thing. I don't know. I'm trying. I don't know what I mean, but you can. Do it again if you want to. Well, I was thinking about. Do the right. Thing and I was. Like I think I picked that before. So I'll pick another one. I think that I want to pair this with if Beale Street could. Talk. I thought nice.

2:02:36 I think that there's. Something about the way. That they shoot a couple being in love when all the odds are against them that like the vibe of if Beale Street could talk is like very different than West Side Story and the kineticism of it. But like, there's still that same thrust of a of a story and, and what they're trying to do. And it's a very beautiful movie. So there you go. I'll give you if Beale Street could talk a good answer. Yeah, dude, I. Well, and Brad knows. If Beale Street could talk is. Like one of my top 10 movies of the century. So I think he's trying to coax my score on this up a little bit by comparing it to Beale Street.

2:03:21 I would never do something, Bob. I'm gonna go with a movie. That's pretty recent here. And it's because one of my. Favorite additions by Kushner in this version is this random scene of Rif procuring a gun for the rumble where they go in this bar and you get this great, like you remind me of your dad and you get the the kind of unwritten rules of like illegally buying a gun of him just being like, leave it on the counter. Don't hand it to me, you know? And it reminded me so much of this really vivid bar fight scene in the 2023 movie The Bike Riders, which is an incredibly underrated kind of study of 1960s, you know, biker gangs that I think was just, like, way overlooked.

2:04:12 And the more I thought about it, it's not just the bar scene, but it's this study of a group of men who do not know how to express their feelings, who are violent people because they are like emotionally immature and scared. And I think that there's like way more parallels to it, especially this version of West Side Story, you know, than the 61 version. I really cannot recommend the bike riders highly enough. It was one of my favorite movies of 2023. And I don't think I've ever gotten a chance to talk about it on this podcast. Brad, I, I've never heard you mention it. So I appreciate it. I really like that movie. I agree it's underrated. Real. Also, Really. Good answer, thank you. I I redeemed myself a little bit.

2:04:53 Mad Max Fury Rd. Is the right answer to every Let's make it a double yeah you know The Sound of Music, Mad Max Fury Rd. there's. Some reason that you can. Justify that it pairs with everything whether. It's like a similar vibe or whether it's being like, you know what, I enjoyed that Tarkovsky film, but it was, you know, like slow. When let's get some energy going after this, it's like, yeah, there wasn't enough fat men with nipple rings. Exactly. Exactly, Brad, The Sound of Music is one of the. Easiest things to pair with Fury Rd. because. Then you have the sound and the fury, and that's just like, that's an obvious one, guys. Let us give this film some final scores. I will go.

2:05:34 First here because. I'm pretty sure I'm going to be the low man here. I didn't really get a chance to talk about this because Brad your your soapbox moment was very elegant. My My biggest overall gripe with this movie, aside from the Janusz of it all, is I actually kind of disliked the extent to which both gangs. Are. Accepted by and. Have connection. To their communities, like the America number. For me, it becomes this this kind of neighborhood celebration where it goes beyond just like the Sharks and their girls having a friendly argument with each other that's kind of like sassy back and forth.

2:06:16 And it it kind of spills into the street and becomes both like a celebration of Puerto Rican culture and their own frustrations. And it's an interesting choice. And you have moments like that with The Jets as well, especially the way that they interact with like, Lieutenant Shrink, who very much paints himself as like, I'm one of you guys in a way that he doesn't do in the original. And I actually think that's my least favorite change about this version, because there's something about the 61 version that captures the fact that both of these gangs are completely misunderstood and rejected. By. Everybody else, even like of their own ethnic background, everyone is constantly looking at The Jets and being like you guys are idiots, you guys are stupid, you're going to amount to nothing. Doc is constantly telling them that the America number, you know, in the 61 version is this very kind of insulated, insular thing.

2:07:10 And I think that what that version does better is it captures that the only people that understand each of the gangs is their mirror image in the rival gang, which is why you have that great moment after the opening, like ballet where they're given Officer Krupke and Lieutenant Shrank a bunch of shit and they're like giggling with each other. It works so much better because it immediately underscores these guys all understand each other and the tragedies that they hate each other, but they're the only ones that get each other. So I think that that for me, that kind of brought this adaptation down just a little bit. I also like, I have canonized and lionized the 61 version.

2:07:50 I'm watching this version and I get to the rumble and I'm like, this is like a 7 out of 10 movie for me so far. And I, it pains me to say it because I think that Spielberg's floor is kind of a 7 out of 10 movie. And he, I think, I think he's got some lower than that. I mean, from a technical standpoint, it's hard for him to do. Worse than A7? Behind the camera, but then the rumble happened and then the rest of the movie happened and it really took off for me. Hey, remember that shot at the bathing of the rumble where it's like. Overhead and all the shadows come in. Yeah, freaking amazing, guys. As much crap as I've given this movie, I am going to.

2:08:31 Come all the way up to an. 8.5 out of 10 on this film it it does not approach the heights of 61 for me, which I think is like I really might put that on like my ten all time put it in a vault movies just from a cinematic language standpoint. But this is still a damn good movie. Brad. Isn't it funny when you think a movie is? Really good and just because. The other people are even higher on it. You end up having to, like, be the bad guy. Yeah, yeah, I I've been in that position before and it's annoying. Patrick. Episode Season 1 episode. One of the film and fucking Whiskey podcast. We watch a movie called Goodfellas. Little old Brad here.

2:09:22 Little old Brad here liked the movie A. Lot but had some quibbles and qualms with it and I gave it an 8.5 and I thought Pop was going to come across the table and strangle me forgiving it an 8.5. How dare you. Good fellas, dude. It's a great movie. It's just. Not. Perfect. It's not. Or is it or right? Or is it I don't? Know. I think this is a 10 out of 10. Movie Bob. Wow. This is. Like I got done with this movie.

2:10:02 And I got done crying and I just started like 5, you know, the little like Rolodex of my musicals that I love. And I'm like, it's this in La La Land. And even like, as you were talking about how Steven needed to put it on a on a tripod and just kind of do a little thing here and there, I was thinking about La La Land. And I'm like, he does that for the majority of the dance sequences and it doesn't work because he doesn't have Gene Kelly dancing. He has Ryan Gosling. And I'm like, I, I'm sure that Ansel Elgort is a great dancer, probably better than Ryan Gosling.

2:10:46 He he went to LaGuardia after all. But at the end of the day, he's not Fred Astaire. And I, I think I like, I love La La Land. It remains up there for me. This is one of the greatest musicals that's ever been made and I freaking love West Side Story 2020. One I like and love. 61 I started this episode by saying I think this is much better and I'm sticking with that with my final score. There you go, I'm. Trying to remember. What I. Gave the. 61 film.

2:11:28 I'm like did I give it a 9.5 or did I give it a 10? Do you write these down? I think you and I both gave it A10 and Brad gave it a 9.5. If I. Remember correctly. That sounds right. Yeah, I gave it a 9.5. Bob gave it a 10. We didn't write down what you gave it, but I I think you gave it a 10 as well. Then I'm giving this A10 as well. It's again. I think I, I, I, I'm not even saying 1 is better than the other. I, I again, I, I love these two movies so much. And again for for what seemed like a doomed. Mission.

2:12:10 The gall to be like I'm gonna remake this. All right, I know, I know, you can say like it's not a remake. It's just like a re adaptation of the same source material. Whatever it's it's calling your own shot. It really is it really? Is and the fact that it. Actually delivers to this degree. And you know, I've, I've seen this thing, you know, multiple times. And each time I'm just like, I I think this is like, I think decades from now we're going to especially for a movie that, even though it was very well received, got like a best picture nomination, it was not a huge box office success. It kind of disappointed and it was also marketed weird, but whatever.

2:12:56 But like. Yeah. I I think a lot of people just kind of slept on this movie. Which feels crazy. But I think decades from now, people will look at this and be like, oh, that actually maybe is one of the great movies of the 21st century. And if nothing else, it's probably like the best musical that's been made. And, and I, and I, I think 11 of Spielberg's best. So, yeah, I'm, I'm going 10 out of 10, baby. Let's go. There you go. All right, Patrick. Thank. You for joining. Us thank you for. Putting me in my. Place about Mr. Kaminsky. My pleasure.

2:13:36 I, I will. I will turn it over to you. Tell us what you're working on. Where can we find you? Just all the things, Patrick. I mean, New York City, obviously that's where you I'm in the greatest. City in the. World New York City, although I live in Brooklyn, not Manhattan, where The Jets and the Sharks live but but you know, I make it where they still live to be clear, they still oh, oh, oh, oh true well, there's the. The new incarnations of The Jets. And the Sharks that we're all familiar with. Sure. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. The obviously, you know, the the Sharks, you know, they campaigned for Zoran. You know, The Jets were iffier about him, as they would be.

2:14:18 But no. Anyway, so I I make videos about movies. They are available on YouTube and Nebula. And I got to say the timing is great because I am currently writing and shooting next week a video that I have been promising for a year now and I'm finally doing it. A video about a Spielberg movie that I have extremely complicated feelings about. Cult hook. Oh, there it is. Less than a seven out of. 10 But is it? It is a it is a bizarre, fascinating thing that is a real like a expensive therapy session for Steve as he is trying to figure a lot of stuff out in that one movie.

2:15:08 And I am, I I I'm, I'm I'm, I'm spending a lot of time thinking about this movie and wait, when did this episode drop? Sometime next week. So you will be. Knee deep in recording it and I, I, I'm. Just even gonna say it. I haven't announced this anywhere else. I'm doing I'm doing the Spielberg doubleheader after the hook video because I feel kind of bad kind of ragging on Steve a bunch in the movie. To be clear, it's not like an like an anti hook video, but it's like it it is critical of it. After that I'm doing a video about Munich which I think contains some of the some of the, if not the very best directing Spielberg has ever done.

2:15:54 Just one. Of his most underrated. Movies and really like a staggering piece of film making that is under discussed and so I'm going to discuss it and crucially maybe. Yanish's crowning achievement. Just a great, I mean the technical mastery is it is what what they do with the camera and. Zoom lenses and light and reflections. Last time I watched that movie, about every 5 minutes I would have to pause it and rewind to be like, wait, wait, wait, what did I, what did I just see that that's not possible. Yeah. If you ever want to feel like that's the movie that makes you feel bad about yourself as a film maker because you watch it and it's like, well, I could never do this. No one can do this.

2:16:41 This. What? The fuck? So yeah, anyway, I got 2 so if you want me talking about Spielberg more, that's the next. Like, I don't know, month and a half of my life. Love it. I cannot wait. You could have a worse. Episode you could. Have a worse. Sorry, Brad, Go ahead. Yeah, It's, it's it's really. Not too bad. Again, like I'm I'm watching. Empire of the Sun. Like for research just 'cause it's like, you know, it came out like shortly before hook and and you know what? Really good movie. I got to say man, weird cultural. Moment there in what? What was a 90? One, because that's also like that's around the time that Michael Jackson kind of founds the Neverland Ranch too. So there was just some weird Peter Pan stuff happening in our culture at least in 91.

2:17:32 We can all be glad that Michael. Jackson did not star in Spielberg Peter Pan movie as he had wanted to. He really wanted to. Yep. All right, Patrick Williams. Thank you again for joining us man. It's always good to see you. We will be back next week as we preview season #11 this is going to be a really fun season. I'm sure Patrick will be joining us again for one of these upcoming films. Brad, final thoughts? I I'm just overwhelmed I think. Guys, I think. This was the best Patrick episode of any. I'm just happy that he he tore me a new one 1000%. 1000%. Well, see if I can recover my dignity next week on film and whiskey until then.

2:18:19 I am Bob Book, I'm Brad G and we'll see you next time.