The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King / Pappy Van Winkle 15

0:00 In 2003, director. Peter Jackson returns to give the world an epic conclusion, to one of the most revered trilogies and cinematic history in 2021. After four seasons. We finally try the granddaddy of them. All the film is, the Lord of the Rings Return of the King. The whiskey is Pappy, Van Winkle 15-year and we'll review them both. This is the film, and He podcast welcome to the film and whiskey podcast. Where each week, we review a classic movie and a glass of whiskey.

0:54 I'm Bob book, I'm Brad G and this week we are wrapping up season. And for Brad, this is our regular season finale here, movie number 32 for the season. And we're going out with a bang here with Lord of the Rings, The Return of the King, okay? May come when the courage of men fails. When we forsake our friends and break all bonds of Fellowship but it is not this day. An hour of wolves and shattered Shields. When the age of men comes crashing down. But it is not this day. This day, we fight by all that.

1:35 You hold dear on this Good Earth. I bid, you stand. Yeah, it's a wild world that we live in Bob like we we have seen this through Multiple presidents. We've seen it through a pandemic. Yeah. Like this podcast is, is pretty much in vulnerable at this point. Yeah, it mean it's it is truly a time capsule of Our Moment in history, is it not? Yeah. You know, the podcast where we talk about movies of whiskies from other like, 70 years ago. Yeah. Hey man, before we jump in here, first of all, I just, I want to say, I just got back from my local library. Where the movie critic Leonard maltin was giving a talk and more, you know?

2:26 Yeah. And you know, I gotta say like, Leonard maltin was the first movie critic that I was ever aware of growing up. When I was really little, my parents, you know, sent away for these VHS tapes of The Little Rascals. They've released like all the little rascal shorts on VHS and Leonard. Maltin had written a book about The Little Rascals and so he was on every single one of the tapes giving introductions and he was the first person that That I was ever aware of that like his job was just loving movies and it was it was so cool to learn that at a young age, like you can love this piece of art. This, this little thing, we call a movie so much that it can become your job to just talk about how much you love movies and Brad. It just like reignited.

3:13 Once again how much I love movies watching this man. He now has Parkinson's disease and he came and talked about having Parkinson's a bit and Watching this man on stage, who is, you know, is in the throes of this degenerative disease. And he just told stories about interviewing Katharine Hepburn and talking with all these Hollywood Legends, how he met Fred Astaire and just watching the smile on his face, he was like a little kid and talking about how he met all these famous figures in history and little did he know like to me? He was one of those famous figures so it was just it was such a cool thing and I've been thinking about it all night, man and I Just feel, seriously. So privileged to just do this thing that we call the podcast and be able to come here and talk to you about how much I love movies, man.

4:03 Like, thank you for going on this ride with me. Thank you filmon, whiskey Nation for continuing to listen to us, ramble about movies. But like, there is nowhere else that I would rather be right now than talking with you about this movie bread. Yeah, dude. I that is an advanced full night Bob. Hmm. I also had an eventful night. I, did you hear how my sentiment just died on the vine, their film in whiskey? I was like Brad. There's nowhere else on Earth. I'd rather be in Brad's like yeah cool. Bob I found a really good peanut butter stout tonight I'm pumped about it.

4:44 I hate you so much. Take back everything. I said, dude, you do get it. It's really tasty. Yeah. All right, fine. And it's from Cleveland. Well, there it is. So, all right man. Well you've already disappointed me enough so let's just jump right into talking about this movie. Here, here's the thing. Bob, I 100% wanted to tell you this epic story about me, trying to find this damn peanut butter stout for like weeks now and I finally got it tonight and And I like had this all planned out to tell you about it and then you just had the cutest story in the world that was just like, touching and meaningful.

5:25 And I knew in my soul, I just had to ruin it. Yeah, what we really say? Because you knew in your soul, that your peanut butter, stout story was just was not stacking up. Yeah, hundred percent, but I still had to tell it and is that in telling the actual story, I just had to be Petty about it. I feel it, man. So listen, if you recall, if you've been listening, And throughout the season, you know that we actually started the season with the Lord of the Rings, The Two Towers. We weren't going to do Return of the King until next year. But Brad and I were kind of brainstorming and we wanted to do something different, starting with season five. And so, in season five, what we're actually doing Brad and I have each come up with a list of 15 movies that are near and dear to our hearts or movies that we remember liking as kids.

6:10 Or, you know, something we watched as a teenager that spoke to us, not necessarily like classic Movies, not necessarily the movies. We would normally talk about on this podcast and so all next season, we're just going to go through one by one on our lists and re-watch these movies that were significant to us in the past and see if they hold up and that meant that we kind of had to rearrange some stuff. So we decided to drop one movie out of our season for line up and plug in The Lord of the Rings. The Return of the King as our finale here Brad. I don't know what I'm more pumped for season fives lineup, which is going to be really fun. Through or getting to talk about Return of the King, you know, a couple months earlier than we had planned. Well, I'm a sucker for immediate Pleasures. So I'm going to vote for Return of the King Bob. Well then, let's jump into it, man. You know, obviously we have both watched these movies 100 times, like I was obsessed with the Lord of the Rings movies, when I was a teenager, I had not Revisited Return of the King in a really long time, and I have lots of thoughts, but Brad, I I guess I want to hear even before we jump into Brad explains what are your kind of immediate takeaways from this watch through of Return of the King?

7:26 Well this is a watch through where I sat down with the extended version and I just keep doing that. You gotta stop watching the extended ones man they're so long now. I will say that the this is actually something cool to me about the extended edition. The entire runtime for the Regular movie is like three hours and 21 minutes. The runtime for the extended is 4 hours and 23 minutes. Yeah. Now one might normally say that, wow, Brad that's like 62 minutes longer than the regular edition. It is not Bob, there is about 20 plus minutes, I clocked it. The runtime went like 401.

8:07 So there's like 20 to 23 minutes of credits for this movie, which like, at first glance is like, whatever hard pass. Yeah. Yeah, hard pass, but on the second thought. First off, Howard. Shores, music plays the whole time and it's phenomenal. Second off, it's just cool to think about the fact that 20 minutes worth of names, hundreds and hundreds, and probably over a thousand names. Worked on this Trilogy this project. It is one of the most special movie trilogies of all time and as epic and crazy. Long as the series is it just felt like it deserved an epically long credit sequence. Yeah, I thought that was pretty neat so your immediate Impressions were they had great closing credits. Yeah, man.

8:58 All right, cool. Got it, honestly, one of my one of my immediate takeaways was, you know, I genuinely like the extended editions more but I think I'm going to stick with the a trickle from here on out. I just don't have this much time in my life. I was gonna say you're a dad now. Like this there's no way you have about 4 plus hours. At a time, dude. I think that this movie is an example of catharsis Done, Right? Hmm. Like I know a lot of people talk about how great it is when a movie ends with a cliffhanger and it forces you to think about the world and the Darkness in your soul, and you know, all those like fine and dandy things to say. But this movie goes the exact opposite route.

9:40 It gives you every single moment of like, oh yeah, the Shire. Oh man. The fellowship is reunited, I'll Gandalf is so cool. I like salmon Rosie. Like you get all of the moments one after another and I just I just love it man. I think this is one of the few movies where the cheesy catharsis, you know, moments. They could just keep on coming and I be 100% happy. Yeah, I will say, man. Like I'm going to have nitpicks about this movie. The multiple endings are not one of my dad picks. I have never found that this movie. Had too many endings and especially after investing 9. + H in these characters, it's good to see that they each get the send-off that they deserve.

10:25 And so like you're not going to get any, you know, 18 year old hot takes. For me about this movie has too many endings. I actually think the ending is pretty much perfect. Yeah, I'm right there with you, when when Frodo and Sam are laying there and, well, first off, when Frodo, can't see the Shire anymore. And that, that transition from Sam, And the hopeful uplifting music as he talks about the Shire, trying to like cast vision and hope for Frodo. Hitman Pro totus, shuts him down, like a peanut butter stout to a child's dreams. Like it's made so dark and then but that sets you up there laying there the the lavas flowing around him and Frodo goes I could see it Sam. I can see the springtime in the Shire and you're like oh my God Frodo.

11:13 Get to see the Shire again. I can see the shine light party, train Rosie. She had ribbons in her hair. I was to marry someone It would have been our.

11:59 It's so it's so damn good. I want to take bets on each other real quick over under. How many times do you think I cried during this movie? How many times do I think you cried during this movie? Oh, that's a. That's a good question. I will change. I'm gonna put the over-under for you at two and a half? Yeah. Yeah. I think I was at three. I think it was a It was I can't carry it for you but I can carry you. That one got me. Yeah man my friends you bow to no one gets me every single time, dude and then and then Frodo's goodbye. And actually the moment that gets me at Frodo's. Goodbye it isn't when he says goodbye to Sam. It's when he hugs Mary and they leave the camera on Dominic Monaghan as face as he hugs Frodo. Goodbye.

12:49 And it's like such a genuine emotion. Actually, you know what? I might have had a With 12 and just now that I'm thinking about it it's a when Merry and Pippin are split up and they don't know if they're ever gonna see each other again because Billy Boyd and Dominic Monaghan, they're fantastic together. Their chemistry with each other is insane and like when they get divided up and you watch I think it's Pippin right away and marries talking about how he doesn't know if he's ever going to see him again I choked up a little bit there too. Yeah man I you are 100% correct Billy and Dominic I love what they do with these movies and I think that like when you look at the movies as a whole when you have so many stinkin characters to care about, they almost have to have their own little sub movies that are going on.

13:38 And so you get that with with Aragorn and Aon you get that with Aon and Mary and with merry and Pippin and Gandalf in Pippin and you get all these little moments where the way these characters interact. With one another reveals who they are as people as Hobbits as elves dwarves. And I just think that Billy and Dominic just knock it out of the park as like best friends who grow as human beings together through a terrible conflict. All right, I'm going to put your over-under at one point five because you are more heartless than me but you're not totally heartless.

14:19 So I know this movie. Got you twice. Probably. Bob, I didn't cry single time in this this feeling. I hate you so much, dude. I'm sorry, man. Aye aye! I genuinely don't often cry at movies that you know the last movie that got me to cry. This might make you a little bit happier. What's that was children of man? Really? Yeah when she was having her baby. Yeah yeah I lost it because I was like I've been there too like it's so beautiful. It is so beautiful. And like you get sucked into the The world. And if everyone wasn't able to have babies like then my little Sadie wouldn't have been born and that like that cause me to cry.

15:02 Yeah, I get it. So so I think the bar has been rare raised a little bit from like you bow to no one to my baby. Possibly couldn't have been born. I was gonna say a catastrophic event and a miraculous birth. That's like the only thing that will get you. Yeah, man. Bryce type stuff. Well, let's get into Brad. It's, this is the part of the podcast where Brad breaks down the movie that he has just seen often for the first time. This is very obviously not Brad's first time seeing the Return of the King. But Brad, the real challenge for you is that you only have 60 seconds to try to break down everything that happens in this movie, for our listeners. So can you do it man? Can you give it to us in a minute or less easily Bob are gone kicks ass Gandalf takes names Frodo tosses the ring in the fire.

15:50 Boom the end. That was not exactly Bob. That's all I'm saying, man. Yeah, let's just stop there. This movie, if you haven't seen it by now, go watch it. It's one of the greatest movies of all time, along with the other two movies in the trilogy. So you haven't seen any of them. Go watch the whole doggone thing. I'll take a full 60 seconds just to encourage you to go watch these movies if you have seen them, then you know what I'm talking about? And I think my summary is this Ain't enough for you. I like it, man. Let's move on. We have more things to talk about. I'm gonna offer my first hot. Take here Brad. I think this might be the worst of the three. Oh, yeah, and I'm really surprised to say that because I always thought Fellowship was the worst of the three. And if you go back and listen to our fellowship episode, like I had a lot of what I think are very legitimate, complaints about some of the camera moves and things that they had in quite polished up yet.

16:48 You can really tell that even though all three of these movies were shot at the same time, So that by the time, the third one came around, the studio was pumping more money into the post-production. Like this one looks better than all three of them. I think the CGI holds up better from this one than any of the other two. And and so like you have this really pristine looking film, but I came away from it saying like yeah, this is probably like a close to Perfect movie, but it felt the least Lord of the Rings e to me. And I think it might be the worst one. Yeah, I mean I remember when we When we reviewed the Fellowship of the Ring that you commented that you just get a little bit bogged down in the story a little bit much. I think that happens in this one because honestly at this point I feel like a lot of trilogies that do that do. Well, they establish the world in the first story. The second one, they deepen the tension and put the heroes in some sort of unwinnable.

17:52 Fight. And then in the third one you have a Triumph Triumph you have a Triumph of good over evil, right. And in this one, do you have that? And it's beautiful and amazing, but you also still have massive Lord dumps just throughout the entire movie. You're like, yeah, there's these ghosts under the the mountain and they, they broke their vow, long time ago. And, and here we are, you got Get'em Aragorn. And like, they just spend so much time with the lore and, and don't get me wrong. Bob, I could talk to you for three hours straight without you mentioning a single syllable about Lord of the Rings and, and just not lose steam. So, I love the lore of Lord, of the Rings. Like, if you want to start talking about Tom Bombadil, we can go at it.

18:46 Silmarillion podcast next week. Yeah, next week, we're starting. So it's going to be silmarillion and Warm ale. All right. So I let me jump in and say this though. Yeah, okay. I think the thing that really stood out to me about this one and I'm trying to figure out how to word it so that I don't get misconstrued. But the note that I kept taking is that this is the least fun of the three movies and I don't mean by that that like it has the least, you know, the fewest number of light-hearted moments. It has the fewest gags because it definitely does. It's much more serious than the other. Our, but even like the film, making the emphasis is elsewhere with this movie, compare it to the two towers. I think that one has very similar themes, I think they're starting to feel the heaviness of the Ring. The the friendships are starting to get fractured a little bit. The paranoia starting to creep in the dread. The the insurmountable odds are starting to stack against them. So I think the comparison between the two movies is there, but the style of filmmaking of Two, Towers is much more of a Almost like a swashbuckling kind of thing. You know what I mean?

19:56 Like, it's really adventurous and you feel the propulsion of Our Heroes, doing what they need to do. And it's a fun ride even though there are some heavier moments in it. And this one for better or worse. I think Peter Jackson really shies away from giving you moments of like of just fun. It's so like take the big battle in front of the city of ministereth. It's called The Battle of pelennor fields in scale. Is even larger than the battle we had in the second one. And yet, I didn't really feel a sense of like it was a very compelling to me. And the way that battle ends is like, with all these, ghosts soldiers, coming and just wiping everything out in, like, 20 seconds. So, I think there are things about this movie that while you really do, get a sense of the human element of the movie. And I think that's really wise on Peter Jackson's part, like, he leans in to look at the toll.

20:50 This is taking on people. He does it at the expense of giving you like really really classic swashbuckling kind of elements scattered throughout the movie. Yeah, I mean the you know the Battle of Helm's Deep is supposed to have like 10,000 Iraq, I ready to fight the battle of the pelennor fields is supposed to be a hundred thousand plus or works. Like, it's supposed to be the greatest force that has ever been seen. And I do think that this is one of the few departures from the books that I dislike that Peter Jackson did because and this I don't know. Stick with me for a second here, but like in the books, Aragorn does go underneath the mountain and get the, the army of the dead.

21:32 But what he does with them, is he goes to the ships that these Pirates have and essentially, he frees the slaves that are, that are like, rowing these ships that they've taken from Gondor and Rohan, and all these other places, and it's that army of slaves and that Army of people that reinforce Gondor at the end of the battle and helped turn the tide. And there's something about that story, that that is much more compelling to me of one of Aragorn as a as a freeing emancipator that swoops in to save the day more so than like an invincible Unstoppable. Army of the Dead.

22:20 Yeah, that just like wipes the field. That, I think that if they had stuck with the book in that area, yes, it would have been harder because you have to like at least show him freeing somebody to show this idea of a priority, but there's something about that that just hits it, it hits home, a little bit more deeply than does what they showed and you're right Bob you you lose some of that personal connection to the people fighting in the battle. And that's that's an unfortunate thing because when you consider It Lord of the Rings. Is this epically large story. That is incredibly intimate and its performance.

23:00 Yeah and so when you lose those intimate moments, it causes the film to suffer well. And I also think that this is a victim of the fact that there are just so many characters to follow. Now like every time they go to a new city, you meet like the entire government of that City. So you have all these people getting folded into the mix here and it really, you know, it kind of becomes hard to keep Track of all of them and what their motivations are and you know who they're in love with and things like that. And so I do think that the sheer amount of things they have to enter cut throughout this movie. Really does kind of take away from the movie a little bit to the point where really crucial members of that original Fellowship.

23:40 The nine are barely in the movie, like, Gimli and Legolas are hardly in this movie and I know you watch the extended version. But I'm telling you man, like there are large swaths of this movie. R Frodo and Sam disappear for 30 minutes at a time and then, you know, you watch Aragorn making preparations for battle or talking with Aon or longing for Arwen and his two buddies aren't there either. And so you get to the end of the movie and it kind of feels like some of these members of the fellowship that you've really been sticking it out with here, got shafted, because they're making so much room for people, like denethor the steward of Gondor. And I think it really takes away from, you know, I think the audience some more time with these people that they really, really like. All right, let's let's talk about data for denethor for a second, Bobby ready.

24:31 Let's do it, man. So I have a few rules for film and whiskey Nation, rule number one. Anytime Bob refers to an actor, chewing scenery overacting anything like that. You have to think about denethor in this performance. Because this, this is the textbook definition Of overacting. Am I right? Oh, my gosh, man. Like that was the first note I took was wow, this facial. Twitching is really over the top. Yeah. And like it. I don't want to say, it doesn't work for the movie because I think that it creates a very convincing picture of a Madman so it's not as if overacting doesn't work.

25:15 I just don't know if it adds a massive amount to the movie, it doesn't add as much as the actor thought it would. At the Released. So I do think it takes away though. I like or how did you phrase it? It's not that it doesn't work, I do think it doesn't work. I think he's terrible and it's one of those things that you don't really notice unless you're watching it for this podcast, we're like trying to find things to be critical about. So like I think you could go through the movie and not pay attention to how over the top. This man is because at the end of the day, we're watching people pretend to fight CGI trolls and stuff. You know what I mean? Like, they're all over. Acting because that's the nature of this movie, but I think we've gotten used to a certain level of acting from all of the people involved, you know, even Phaeton and eowyn and all those people from Rohan. Like, they know what's up?

26:06 They understand the assignment and my boy denethor just rolls in here and is like, he looks like he's getting exercised of a demon half the time. Like his face is just shaking and when he is in his right mind. He's so like, It seems like he just watched The Lion King a couple times and was like, yes car Jeremy Irons. I got it. Like I'm gonna lean into that. It's so over-the-top. And honestly even the way that they try to make his character have some sort of significance on the plot. It just felt very shoehorned in and I'm sure Again Brad in the books. Like he probably plays some sort of major role, I have no idea, but the whole way that they set up his son getting wounded in battle and then coming back the You know, they bring his apparently lifeless body back into the City and denethor is convinced that he has killed his son.

26:58 And so he kind of goes mad and he wants to be burned on a pyre with his dead son, and it is, it's very obvious that his son is not dead. Like, he's just kind of rolling around on the floor, like, hey, what's going on and breathing and, and Pippins go. And hey, look, he's alive, he's alive. I think the geography of that whole sequence, doesn't it just didn't work for me. Like denethor is, is apparently So out of his mind that he won't listen to anyone telling him like, Hey, look, your son's eyes are open and he's eating a sandwich like right there, you know, and he's like no and he throws Pippen out and gets up on the pyre and dumps oil on himself. And none of that sequence worked for me and and it ends with Gandalf riding in on his horse his horse, just booting, the guy in the face so hard that he lands up on the pyre and burns alive. And if you watch that sequence, Brad. Like, you can see that the stunt actor gets pretend hit in the face by this horse.

27:58 And instead of falling up onto the pyre, you see him jump off of his feet because they because this like bonfire is so high off the ground. He can't just fall back on to it. So he has to jump up and into the fire it. Like nothing about denethor worked for me. And it really took away from the movie. Yeah. I mean, I think that's that's the big problem is like, how do you convey Madness? Very well. For me that there's supposed to be conveying, this idea that denethor has been looking into a secret palantir, which is the orb that Pippin has the drives, him kind of crazy a little bit and that it has driven him mad because he's watched Sauron, build up his forces and he knows there's no way to beat 100,000 Orcs, And so he's gone mad. And he I think that the thing that they're trying to portray is that he knows.

28:51 His son is alive. Live. He wants to be a martyr. He wants to be seen as you know as this tragic figure with his son more than he actually wants to live at this or he wants his son to live so that that for me kind of worked but I mean you're 100% correct van. The dude was the dude was ridiculous. Yeah. And I think the other problem is that when you compare him to the other king figure of the movie Theoden played by Bernard him, All it's comparing apples and oranges Bernard Hill, knocks it, out of the freaking Park in this movie. Oh, he's so good. And, and part of it is, his character is so good.

29:33 He's he's constantly conflicted. He's constantly confronted with his own foul ability and I think that there are a lot of times we're in the second and third movie. If you're strictly comparing him to Aragorn and all the heroic things Aragorn does, then you can see that they had in his kind of a coward. But what I love about thetas character is he is representative of how easily swayable how easily, you know, mistake-prone and fallible. Humans are like that is part. That's one of the major themes of The Lord of the Rings is the age of men is Dawning again. But like they don't have a king to lead them and Phaeton is kind of grappling with the fact of like I am a very flawed person and I have made some really grave mistakes and I recognize that this Aragorn, who's going to take a throne that isn't mine but that's, you know, rising up at the same time that I'm King is all of the things that I'm supposed to be as king and and falling short of. And so I really love the way that they allow Bernard Hill to play that character because he has all the regrets. But he also by the, by the time he dies, he's really come to terms with the fact of like I did the best. I could I made mistakes and I feel 10th. Knowing that there's someone coming after me, who's going to do a much better job than I did.

30:56 It's a really beautiful character Arc. Yeah, I mean, there's just a certain nobleness to the character of Theoden and like you said, Bob he just has so many flaws and yet he continues to do the right thing and I think that's what's so compelling about a character, like they Odin and the performance that Bernard Hill gave it is that we all know the struggle of being a human being, we all know the struggle of doing the right thing. In the face of all the Temptations that the world has to offer us but it is admirable and Noble to continually do the right thing in the face of your flaws. And that like that, it's places like that we're Lord of the Rings just shines. Well, and I will say that this one has the best performances of the whole trilogy, but the reason it has the best performances is that.

31:45 It also has the best script like this script, really sets these actors up for success by having by far the best dialogue. Log and also by building in these moments that allow actors to act. I feel like in the first two movies there's a there's a lot of exposition dumps and a lot of the acting performances are just trying to make you buy into the premise of these movies. Whereas this one it's like, hey, we're going to lean really heavily into displaying the toll. This is taking on you and everyone's tired, and everyone's paranoid, everyone's being tempted by the ring, and you're all going to be crying all the time. And all the Actors in this movie, except for denethor knock it out of the freaking Park, like it really. I think one of the things that bothers me most about this movie and the way it was received by the public, is that this movie gets nominated for 11?

32:35 Oscars, it wins all of them, it is a clean sweep and it had no acting nominations. Do you know what I mean? Like, I understand that the Ensemble is so big that they probably weren't going to get a nomination just because it's hard to find like Like a token person to nominate from this group, but I mean, come on, like in McKellen. Elijah Wood, something like just Vigo somebody throw somebody in there because they were all worthy of being recognized for their performances. Yeah, I mean, I think you can easily throw Ian or Elijah in for best actor, even V go to a point. And then I, like, I think you could throw any of those three in for supporting actor.

33:16 Like, like all of them play such beautiful lead and yet supporting roles in the movie. She it easily could have gotten two or three more nominations for acting roles. Well, I want to keep talking about these performances Brad, but I think it's time we press pause. We have a momentous occasion today. We're going to be drinking Pappy Van Winkle, a peanut butter. Stout? The peanut butter stout. We're switching it up on you, folks. What do you say? We tried this Pappy. Let's get to it. Bob All right, everybody, it is. The moment we have been building to on this podcast for for freaking Seasons.

34:32 We are finally doing it. Brad, I don't know how in the hell we were able to get our hands on this but we are trying Pappy. Van Winkle 15-year today. Robert, this is the moment that like we're done after this, we've arrived or four. Reasons it just worked out perfectly that it landed on our final movie, the season, we're done after this, this filming whiskey podcast is over, so fill in whiskey Nation. As you can tell, I have a bit of a cold, and I'm going to go ahead and spoil something for you. On the production side of things, we actually tried the whiskey. Before we sat down today, obviously, we are still very much poor and not able to afford our own bottle of Pappy Van Winkle. However, we tried Pappy 15, when we went to record, On location with our friends at crafted cocktail company, they had a bottle of Pappy 15.

35:25 It was the last poor. We had that day, we wanted to do something big to celebrate at our friend, Scott's our absolutely hooked us up with the Pappy, we could not have tried this, if it wasn't for crafted Cocktails. So, first of all, our friends Scott, I want to say thank you for carrying such a great selection of Whiskey's at your bar. Yeah, crafted cocktail is literally the coolest place in Northeast Ohio. So if you are ever traveling through the Area. If you live anywhere within an hour of Wadsworth Ohio, you need to get your butt on down to crafted cocktail and check it out. Because Scott is just knocking it out of the park over there. So, yes, Scott, you are a true gentleman and a scholar. So we thank you.

36:09 So, before we dive into this Brad, I do think we should give a little bit of background on Pappy Van Winkle because this stuff has developed such a reputation over the last. Go ahead. I like that. You say, I like that you say we are going to give background information as if I'm going to give any background information. As if you have done any research at all. Yeah like it's very obvious at this point of the podcast that you have done the background research. So Bob why don't you tell us about Pappy Van with 15? Damn. Right. I will bread. All right, so not to get too far in the weeds here. I want to keep this kind of surface level. If you want to really nerd out about Pappy, you can do a deep dive.

36:50 We're looking at here is a product that is produced by Buffalo Trace and it is produced with the same general Mash bill that they use to produce Weller. We've talked about that in the past how if you blend certain kinds of the Weller line of products, it kind of approximates the flavor or so people say of Pappy Van Winkle. So what separates Weller from a Pappy Van, Winkle is the selection process. It's the history of the brand. It's the age statement that you get on the brand as well. We're drinking the Young. August Pappy Van Winkle today which is 15 year. Now they have one. That's called Old, Rip Van Winkle. And they also have Van Winkle, family reserve Rye but bearing the name Pappy Van Winkle.

37:30 This is the youngest one at 15 years. It goes all the way up in age to a 23 year, old bourbon Brad, I'm really interested. If we ever get the chance to try the Pappy 23 because it's obviously the most expensive of all of them having just had Elijah, Craig, 18, a couple weeks ago on the podcast, you know, after a certain point Bourbon just isn't that good if you've left it in the barrel for that long. And I think even when we were getting to, the 18 year mark, without Elijah Craig, it was really pushing the boundaries of like, is this over oaked at this point. So we've heard people say that Pappy 15 is the one to drink. If you can try Pappy Van Winkle and luckily for you, dear listener we have tried Pappy.

38:12 Van Winkle 15. Yeah. Luckily for you. We've drink the whiskey. You want to try. That's right. And we're going to tell You all about it. So Brad, let's just, let's just be honest here. I want to give my honest opinion about Pappy. I have been excited to try it for the longest time. I have been dreading trying it for the longest time, because everything we've ever said about Buffalo, Trace it finds it, it finds its peak here in Pappy. Van Winkle, the overpricing the allocation, the, the crazy, chasing and hunting. That goes on for this product is just outrageous. And I feel like in some And there's no way this could ever really live up to the hype that surrounds it.

38:54 Yeah, I mean, this would be like watching Citizen Kane if it cost you like $600 for a screening of Citizen Kane, you know what I mean? Like this is like the crème de la crème of bourbon in the bourbon hunting world and it costs a butt ton of money to get, you know, even a price of admission it's honest. E, like watching Citizen Kane. Like there's so much hype around it. There's so much. Is this the greatest movie of all time that like if it cost you five hundred dollars to watch Citizen Kane? Every time you watched it you would really be asking yourself the question like man, like is this movie really worth spending all this money on and in the same way I think Pappy Falls along that vein.

39:42 Now the reason Pappy built up such a reputation is because for a long time the product was distilled at the old Stitch, Soul Weller. Which was then acquired by Buffalo, Trace got folded into Buffalo Trace. And then, of course, Buffalo Trace is now owned by Sazerac over the years. Everything that was distilled at that old distillery has kind of been used up, right? Like after their 23rd, year of being shut, down Pappy, 23 was no longer made 100% with stencil Weller product. And so, what I've heard is that newer stuff isn't quite as good to stuff that's like 100% Sazerac, made not quite as Good as the older stuff. Here's the thing guys, we did the best. We could, we're not not like digging through the annals of Pappy history so you know what?

40:29 But to that point though Brad it might not be worth it anymore and it may be a developed its reputation based on how good the old stuff was and the newer stuff may not be worth it at all. So I think it's time for us to go ahead and dive in. We took copious notes as we were drinking this because we did not want to let you guys down Brad when it comes to the nose of Pappy. Fifteen, what were your impressions honestly? I think what was remarkable to me. Was how subtle and soft the nose was. I mean there's some beautiful wheat notes. There's a ton of like, nice soft, sweet vanilla there. There was a little bit of like a buttery feel to it for me.

41:10 Almost like a butterscotch, it's an amazing nose. It's I wouldn't even say decadent there's just a lot of really nice things going on here. I'd probably give it like a 9 out of 10. You know, it's really funny that you started off with the kind of soft subtle nodes because the first note I took on the nose was ethanol, like I actually thought that alcohol really jumped out of the glass on this in a way, I wasn't expecting. So this actually clocks in at 107 proof which is the same as well or antique. But for me, the ethanol was much more prominent on the nose than it is on Weller antique. I found this to be like a little bit granier. It had like a kind of musty smell to it, which I think, you know, is indicative of the fact that it's been in the barrel. 15 years. Like I definitely had that sort of old saw Dusty note on it for me.

41:57 I got a lot of orange on this as well. Orange Peel was pretty prominent all the way throughout which is something Brad that we also picked up on Weller foolproof, just a couple weeks ago. So I think there's definitely some similarities here to what you got in those Weller lineups. The disappointing thing for me is that I don't know that I picked up on anything that was markedly different than Weller or like markedly more complex. So, I go into the This a little bit apprehensive because again like this is a 58 million dollar whiskey at this point and like it doesn't seem wildly better or different than Weller. So I'm actually only going to give it an eight and a half on the nose. And then as we move into the taste for this, it really jumps from being kind of soft and subtle into a much more pronounced. Bold Flavor, profile.

42:48 I feel like I'm getting a lot of this just decadent butter. It has Perfume like notes that almost feel like a floral mixed with bits of grape. And then once again, that butter really just kind of comes through. It feels like a butterscotch, to me, it's really great. There's a lot going on but I think I'm going to stick it like an 8 and a half out of ten on The Taste. Yeah, I'm actually also going to be an 8 and a half on the taste but I'm going to Echo and really underscore your note of like butteriness because as I tasted this and I gave it two or three sips, Before I really took notes. I wrote down the word butter 4 times in my tasting notes here.

43:28 That was the first thing that jumped off to me. Was, it's buttery. And at first, it's really buttery in the mouth feel, it's a very oily, very, like creamy, decadent heavy, whiskey, and then, as you swallow it, like not to go in to finish but like, on the back end of the flavor that sort of salted butter, note actually came out a lot for me like actually tasted like butter as well. Brad, I think if there's one thing That I can say about this whiskey that is just vastly different from every other whiskey we've ever had on the show. I can see why people go crazy over this because this is the most rich decadent whiskey that I think I've ever had. It's almost like when you get like a piece of cake and you know like when something is so sugary that it almost like it has that weird effect on your tongue that it almost like numbs your palate. Like it has this weird.

44:19 He's for me, there's like a sensation of like, this is so sweet. That it is like shocking. My palate right now and you can only eat so much of it, right? This is like that. This is a whiskey that I took one sip of and I will say like it's not super complex but it's so buttery and so rich and so heavy and so oily that I was like I'm good for a couple minutes and I put it down. Yeah and I came back to it a few minutes later like you don't even like you have to take breaks between sits on this one. Dude, for me, it's almost like, you know, how you've been to weddings. And they're like, oh, we ended up getting like a giant eagle cake or a Kroger cake for everyone, and it's like cheap and good and I like I agree with them. I'm like, yeah, that's like solid cake, you know, it's wedding cake, it's fine but then you go to like a like an actual Bakery and you have like a high-end cassata cake or you know, whatever it is like.

45:20 Have you ever had that experience for life? Oh my gosh, this cake is on the next level to me. That's kind of the experience. I'm getting here where yes, I've had decadent buttery type Whiskey's before but this really is like you just said, it's just a different type. It's just a different level of explosion of buttery goodness. I don't know how else to explain it again. I think I will make the distinction though. It's not as complex as some whiskies that we've had. It's just, it's just much. Heavier. It's like when you, you know, if you go to a brewery, you can get your like light weeded beer, or you can get like the Imperial Stout Venice, that is the most fulfilling thing.

46:04 You could possibly like an oatmeal stout or something. The know that I took on this was this is the buttercream frosting of whiskey. I just think in every sense of that term, it's really, really dense and it's good. You know what I mean? I think it's a huge step up in terms of like what it does on the palette from Um, well or antique even if it's not any more complex flavor wise. So again it's only an eight and a half for me, but the experience of drinking it was, was definitely something I haven't had before. Yeah. Well and you know we've gotten through the nose in the taste for me the finish it just keeps the but the butterscotch train going here. You definitely get a lot more of the oak that you would expect from a 15 year aged bourbon but the oakiness I don't know, I feel like a lot of times my struggle with longer aged Bourbons.

46:56 Is that the oakiness overpowers every other flavor at the finish? That is not true. Here it sticks on that, butterscotch, and gives you a nice solid finish that lingers for a while. And like you said, Bob, I think the beautiful thing about this whiskey is you spend so much money on it that it forces you to slow down and enjoy it. And so for me, I it's a 9 out of 10 on the Finish. It's just phenomenal. Okay. I think what I'm going to do is I'm going to amend my taste score and I'm going to bump it up to a nine just because of the drinking experience being so different than what we're used to. However I'm actually only going to give the finish a 7 out of 10 and here's why I think you're right in that like that heaviness really kind of hangs around but there's not like a ton of complexity that comes on the Finish.

47:47 It's the same general notes that you're used to if you've had a well or antique it has that. Tweeted bourbon character on the finish and what's left behind on your palate. It's a long finish and I think that's to be commended where I really found it. Lacking though, was that there was like no chest burn on this thing? I actually wrote down. This gives me a belly burn. Not a chest burn. I thought that like by the time it reached my stomach, I was like oh like this is again very heavy and I feel like the alcohol is all sitting in my stomach but it didn't really make itself known kind of on the way down. That was a bummer for me because it packed a punch until you swallowed and then it really wasn't there anymore. And so if there is one thing I'm really going to ding this Whiskey on it's the finish.

48:33 So I'm just going to give it a 7 out of 10 there. Well then we get into the balance. Like you said, Bob this is not the most complex whiskey we've had and honest, I'd say that by a long shot. You know, I think back to some of the other btech, we've tried and there's there are much more complex Whiskey's out. They're in this type of Market, but really, I think that this is a really solid balance of butter and Oak little bits of spiciness here, and there some nice vanilla. I think it's a well-balanced whiskey. I'll give it an eight and a half Brad before I give my my balance score here. I want to go back to last season. We finished out the year with Thomas H handy, Sazerac Rye, a Buffalo Trace, antique collection product and it is to this day.

49:21 I think the highest rated See we've ever done on the show? Yeah, dude. It was a sample that was sent to us by our friends Bourbon and stuff. And at the time they told me it was a 20-18 version of the bottle. But the picture they sent me, the specs on it were from the 2019 version and again, I don't know how much that matters. But like if I said 2018 and we really drank 2019. I apologize. All that to say I was out at crafted cocktail like three days ago with a friend of show. Mike Giles and we splurged and split a poor Or of Thomas H handy. I was like, dude, it's the highest one we've ever had on the show. I love to treat you to this. Like, let's early, you know, at least let's split it down the middle and we did and I gotta tell you man, like Not only was it not the best whiskey I've ever had.

50:06 It was legitimately not good and it was not worth $40. Now, that could be like something happened, to this specific bottle, it wasn't like, you know, the whiskey equivalent of a skunked beer, but like the wasn't complex at all. And the nose had like, a very faint kind of cat piss, smell to it. And, you know, Mike drank it and he really was polite about it and then I was like, wow, that wasn't good at all and he was like, yeah, I didn't like that. We spent $40 on a poor and it, you know, again this has nothing to do with crafted cocktail, but I asked Scott like what's going on here and he basically said for him, these higher end Buffalo Trace products can really really vary from bottle to bottle and Brad that really made me.

50:52 Consider like the way that we recommended that be tech product because that sample, we had maybe the best whiskey I've ever had in my life. But this other bottle of the same thing from the same year, not good at all. And so, I bring that to the table here with Pappy because again, it's the same Distillery or, you know, at least the same manufacturer. And I thought the balance here was really good. It was just buttery and decadent as hell. But I wonder like, did we get the highwomen Rendered version of this product or were we sampling the lower end version of this product and I hope for our sake that the bottle we had is like the worst Pappy you could get. And it can only go up from there because it was still really good.

51:36 But I'm already kind of dreading, like, how are we going to recommend this bottle? So I look at the balance. I'm going to give it an eight and a half again on balance, really good, but it just isn't approaching that upper echelon of super complex Whiskey's that we've had and looking. Forward to our value and our recommendations here Brad. I think this is where it gets really dicey. Yeah. I mean, Bob, you have said all of the right words that like, trigger a response in me towards Buffalo Trace, I, I just don't get it. Bob, the, that like, I feel like I've spent this season of the full moon whiskey podcast, just ranting and raging about Buffalo Trace. Like if there's anybody to blame it's you Bob you put all these whiskies in front of me so I'm blaming you 100% but in addition to that I just look at it and I don't know. I'm going to turn over a new Leaf Bob and season 5. I'm going to be a more positive.

52:41 I want to bring a good energy into the world but for now I'm just going to be exasperated at the end of this season and say, I don't get it. It, I don't understand the hyper on Buffalo Trace, like I've said before, I've had some of their be Tech stuff. It's good. Like they make good whiskey, but especially when you consider what you just said, Bob of like this high-end btech can be really great or really bad at that point. I feel like Buffalo Trace is a company that is preying on. The people who don't know, a ton about whiskey, heck they're preying on people who do What about whiskey?

53:23 I just feel like. I feel like it is an inappropriate and frankly immoral business model that they are just benefiting off, nothing, and I'm tired of it. Bob, I'm really frustrated but I think Brad, I think for the first time ever we should just not give a value score because like you're not, you're not going to get this product at retail. Like there is a there's a bottle lottery in Ohio every year. Here, but the allocation is so tiny. Like, if you get this at retail, like go play the Powerball afterwards because I have a feeling like equal odds of that. Like, if if you want a bottle of Pappy, nothing we say is going to deter you from getting a bottle of Pappy, if you want to spend $2000 securing this bottle. God bless you.

54:12 Like go for it, man. I'm not going to give it a value score Brad because like the alternative is just to give it a zero. And I think values in the eye of the beholder, if this is something One. You're going to get it. Nothing I say is going to convince you otherwise so my final score is going to be out of 40. I don't know. Are you okay with doing it that way? Heck yeah dude. All right I mean it my score would go from being what it is out of 42, what it is? Out of 50. So I'm coming out to are 33 out of 40. Brad where are you coming out to? I am at a 35 out of 40. All right so we're coming up to a 34 out of 40 which is essentially an 85 out of 100 and again that's just At scoring it on the quality of the whiskey in the bottle, this is fantastic.

54:57 And it was a cool experience. And I'm so grateful, we got to try it. But like, of course, I'm not going to recommend this, you know what I mean? Like, I'm not going to suggest that you go out looking for a bottle of this or go to a bar and try to find a poor of it. Is it cool to do one time? Absolutely. And if you feel like dropping 50, 60 70 80 bucks on a poor of this, go for it. I'm not going to recommend it. Yeah I'm not going to eat dude. There and honestly, like, in the future, if we are at a place and somebody offers it to us and we want to do a review on it like, yes, we will review it. And I know I say, as I know, I say that, like, it sounds like a chore but honestly, there's a part of me that I just sit here and I feel like an old man. Bob, I'm a geezer, I'm ancient.

55:45 Just give me some Ancient Ancient age by it is. Alright, so those are our thoughts on Pappy 15. Again, we don't need to be downers. Here, I really like this product. I think that you can have an enjoyable time drinking this product. I think that the hype is at least somewhat earned because it is such a decadent Rich bourbon. I see why people love it so much. So if you have different thoughts than we do, we'd love to hear what you think of Pappy. 15, you can find us on our social media as again, reach out to us at film Whiskey on Facebook, Twitter or Instagram. But really, the true All-Star here is Scott's, our at craft a cocktail, is it not Bob? 100%. Yeah, so get out there, check him out. But for now, we don't recommend Pappy, unless you're just going to get it in which case go get it enjoy it. But for now we want to get back into Return of the King. What not?

56:36 One of the greatest Trilogy ending of all time. So let's let's get back to it. Bob, let's do it Brett.

57:20 All right, that was Pappy Van Winkle 15-year. Once again, thank you to our friend Scott sour at crafted cocktail for giving us the opportunity to try Pappy bread. I mean, I don't know that I ever really anticipated that Four Seasons into this podcast. You know, when we started that, we would be trying Whiskey's like this. This is, It's been a fun ride man, and we're clearly not done yet, but I think once in a while, it's good to just take stock of where you're at, it's really cool that we got to drink. Together. Yeah. 100% dude. You know I like I was reflecting tonight about the journey that we've been on and the long path that it's taken us to get here and Bob I just, I'm so thankful to be doing this podcast with you.

58:03 Speaking of long paths that it's taken, the Lord of the Rings. Am I right? Am I right? Dude, I said the other day. We were we were discussing the question of replace every single character but But one in a movie with Muppets and return to the, the just, the Lord of the Rings came up in general, and they were like, the travel montages of the Muppets just like Bebop in their way across the screen. Would be the greatest thing in the world. That's funny. I would I would want it to be Ian McKellen as the human and everyone else. Oh yeah, yeah, I mean it's a, it's a classic Michael Caine situation all over. Yep, for sure.

58:44 All right man. So just a few more notes before we get into final. Is I love that. They started. This movie off the prologue to this movie is a flashback to how Golem became Golem. You know what I mean? Are I guess how Smeagol became Gollum but to start the movie with a character that you think, is kind of a minor character or at least a supporting character, it's a really bold move and I think it really signals what Peter Jackson's trying to do here because he's showing us what happened to Smeagol not. Just as a, as a Character study, even though it is like, we learned from a very early Point, like you should not trust this person and he's going to betray our two Heroes here. But also, this is exactly what's happening inside of Frodo right now.

59:30 And it's a thing that like, they never really drove home. Well enough in Two Towers, if I'm being honest, like, you kind of had some sense that the ring was weighing on him. But I think in this movie, it really becomes clear. Not just because they're all backstabbing each other and crying all the time. But because you have this This prologue where you see a hobbit, get so obsessed with the ring that he turns into this monstrous creature and the makeup the body horror elements of him like transforming into Golem are excellent. It is like really unsettling to start this movie this way, but I think it's really necessary for understanding why. You know how much the ring is Weighing on Frodo? Yeah, dude.

1:00:11 The like you said, the makeup transformation. I think Gollum is a million times more. Terrifying in like the final scene of him, crawling into the mountain, then he is. Once he turns into Golem like that thing freaking haunted my dreams as a child after I saw this although do you know what it kind of looks like it looks a little bit like if you shaved Jim Carrey's Grinch today he has those weird. Another clone see ya kind of looks like a deformed who it's really interesting. Yeah, it is really interesting, the other thing that And I think about that opening sequence is that I I'm afraid and I could be wrong on this Bob but I'm afraid that there is a whole generation of Marvel Cinematic Universe fans out there that only know Andy Serkis from his work in those films which is phenomenal because Andy Serkis is great in everything that he does.

1:01:09 But if you want to talk about routes where like, where my boy got his break, it was these movies. And I think that him as Smeagol The Hobbit before he becomes Gollum at all, I thought he just killed it in that role and I think it's so cool that like they gave him that part. They let him act as the character as well as you know put on the 3D suits and climb around the set as Gollum like also I think we can disagree Andy Serkis got much more attractive as he got older. Do you didn't do didn't look great when he was in his late 30s, early 40s for this movie.

1:01:52 I mean, it's amazing what? Having millions of dollars can do for you. Yeah, it's crazy man. I mean, the same thing happened with Steve Carell after the office. I mean, that's honestly my plan. Yeah, you know, Millions through all of your sons who will join the NBA? So that's right. So I mentioned this in the first half but I do think the script for this movie is probably the best of all three even though that's juggling too much you know it's not Perfect. But in terms of the dialogue, they give the characters. And like I said, the breathing room for the characters to actually act and have reactions. I think it really sets this movie up for success and you notice it, especially with Sam and Frodo. I think Elijah Wood, and Sean, Astin are just spectacular in this movie.

1:02:36 And I noticed it really early on when Sam is talking about how he has rationed out all the bread and Frodo's, like, would you ration it out for and he says, for the journey home Home and they cut back to Frodo and the realization of like, I totally forgot that we have to go home after this too and it's almost like you see in the moment, the weight kind of get lifted off of him as he remembers what home is and where he's ultimately going. It's a brilliant, little touch and there's, there's many touches like that throughout the movie where they just allow a character to have a reaction like that. And I think that because the acting is so good in this movie, they Don't need to write more dialogue to cover up for that.

1:03:19 They just have these little silent reactions and it works beautifully. Yeah, I think that the most improved part of this film, as opposed to the others it really is just opposed to The Two Towers is the Frodo and Sam storyline. I think that you get so many more moments with them that the payoff of spending all this time with Frodo and Sam being best friends from the start of the first, Movie to this point is the fact that you are just so deeply affected by what happens to them and you're right. Bob, the script for them is on point, the acting performances delivers, such a beautiful friendship that you can't help but just be moved by some of the, in my opinion cheesiest lines of all time. Like I might not be able to carry it but all carry. Yeah.

1:04:15 Like it's a terrible lies. That is a terrible line that works like even when even when Aragorn and Gandalf and all of them are making their kind of Last Stand at the gates knowing they're gonna die, probably not. Knowing if Frodo is there, but just saying like we have to do this, if Frodo is alive, so he can buy him time and the eye of Sauron is calling out to Aragorn and he just turns back in tears. And it's this moment where you're like, oh my God, are they gonna do? This is Aragorn gonna turn evil in the last moments of of this movie and he has that final resolution where he just Whispers for Frodo. Again, stupid line. But man, is it effective or what?

1:04:57 Like yeah, that's the thing is, is I don't knock the script for having cheesy dialogue, when it's earned like and the performances earn it, and the fact that you've invested 8 + H at that point of the movie, you know, into this world. It absolutely works. And like the last thing I'll say about these performances Brad I wish I could like make a gif of this. Maybe I'll try to when they're inside, Mount Doom and Frodo. It's the very last time. The ring calls out to Frodo. He's holding it like over the chasm and he's crying like he's so anguished that he doesn't want to let go and the ring starts calling out to him and they put the camera back on Elijah Woods face and this guy goes from Deep pain and anguish and crying to this like obsessed Blank Stare and watching that. Ocean come over here or lack of emotion. Come over.

1:05:48 His face, is truly unsettling, like, it's a brilliant touch that they didn't cut away from it, they just show his face kind of morph back into this, you know, Obsession man. I just think that the performances are so so good. And there's these small little touches that I think go unnoticed in a movie, that's this big. But I think they deserve to be called out well, and not only do they deserve to be called out, but I That moment is like one of the most important of the series, right? That you, you've been with Frodo, through this nine, our journey, you know, this thousand plus page Journey.

1:06:29 If you're reading the books, and you get to the end and you've watched him bear, this burden. He's carried this. Wait for so long and right at the cusp of Victory, the weight overpowers him and that is like a, to me. Me. It is one of the most crushing defeats in the history of literature Cinema. Like, I don't care what you throw my way. Like, you know, spoiler alerts as you will, but like, Dumbledore getting killed Luke, I am your father, like I think that the moment Frodo gives in to the temptation of the ring is one of the most heart-wrenching moments for me in all of movies.

1:07:14 I mean, honestly even as much as I hate the prequels when Anakin finally goes over to the dark side and he's killing younglings and he's doing all this terrible stuff, I still watch all of those movies going. Like, hoping that Anakin won't turn this time that he won't become evil, and I feel similarly about Frodo and Mount Doom. It's just touching to me and it's heart-wrenching and it's sad and yet, it's beautiful that the whole story ends with Gollum, like, I don't know, man. I just I think that Tolkien just wrote some of the best damn books ever. And I just, I just can't get over how good they all.

1:07:54 I do want to make one last point and then let's go into final scores. And, you know, you had asked me this question about, like, do you think that Tolkien had heard somebody in the trenches of World War One talking about the girl, they left behind because, you know, Sam sitting on the side of the mountain talking about Rosie and how much he loves her. And it really kind of reframed, the way I was looking at this and I'm sure it's very Yes, to people who've studied Tolkien and this movie in particular of the three is such a brilliant kind of World War, One and post World War 1 text, like it is all about the intense psychological lingering effects of War and what you just called out Brad that Frodo ultimately is not successful.

1:08:41 Then his quest like the ring gets into the lava of Mount Doom because God Um, Falls in like Frodo. Did not throw that ring in and I think his decision or his lack of action, really, really haunts him and you see it when they go back to the Shire at the end of the movie. Like and I know that in the book, The Shire that there's a whole there's a whole chapter called the scouring of the Shire where they go back to the Shire and it's been burnt to the ground basically and they made the decision to not do that in this movie to leave the Shire as is and it's a brilliant decision because what you get Is that incredible scene where they're all at the pub together and hobbiton is going on.

1:09:21 Like nothing happened. And these four guys have seen some and like it has really affected them and they can't adjust back to regular life like it is such a brilliant parallel to what these soldiers were experiencing as they came back from World War 1. It was the horrors of, you know, the gas and the trenches and no man's land. I really, really think that What they did with this script to kind of reverse what happened in the book, actually, underlines the point that Tolkien was trying to make even better. And so, I don't know that really stood out, to me, I thought it was a great kind of metaphor for soldiers returning from war. Yeah. I mean, I love the scouring of the Shire. It is one of my favorite chapters in the books, but I think that, that, you know, I talked earlier about a choice that Jackson made to go against the books that I didn't. Like this is a choice that I do like it. It's the tone of the movies and like you said, Bob it fits this theme of like, this is what we were fighting for, but I don't know if we get to enjoy it anymore. And I know that Frodo is the one who leaves he sails, you know, from the grey Havens off to valinor which, well, do you want to know more about violent world? I don't, I don't because we were like an hour and ten minutes right now.

1:10:40 Okay. Well, it's worth a vowel are live. Anyways, I think that at the ending of this movie is brilliant because it does show that trauma sticks around. And I think that that is a message that is, I don't know, man. It's simultaneously sad. And yet, it's so incredibly relatable. I just, I have this weird feeling that the world needs to know that. It's okay. That trauma doesn't go away sometimes. Yeah like it's okay that some wounds never fully heal, you know that's part of what makes us human and the important thing to deal with that is to have friends and family that love you unconditionally surrounding you and caring for you till you pass on some day.

1:11:36 Whether that's 80 years from now, 20 years from now or one year from now like having friends and family around you is is so incredibly important. Oh, I can hear your family in the background right now. I think my daughter might have fallen and bonk Toronado. No. All right, man. Well we're going to wrap up here. I do want to say real quick a couple years ago, Peter Jackson released a documentary that he'd been working on for years about World War one. They found a ton of footage and they restored it into 4K, they colorized it and they basically had actors come in and they were able to read the lips of what these people were saying and they gave voice to these figures from the past.

1:12:16 And it it like, it's called, they shall not grow old. It is an incredible documentary. You should watch it immediately. And I think this movie is really a clear indication of where Peter Jackson was going with his fascination with World War one. But on that note, Brad I'm going to give this movie a 9 and a half out of ten. It is still for all the things. It's juggling for the sheer length and volume of things they have to do. It's nearly perfect. The endings. Absolutely. Hit the nail on the head, I have very little to complain. Plain about except for denethor. And I think that this movie could be a little more fun in the kind of middle section. But other than that, man, it's a nine and a half out of ten. Yeah. You know, Bob I look back at watching this movie and I just remember being in the theaters as a 13 year old like this was like a seminal movie moment for me that like I sat down the movie theater was so packed and this theater was jam-packed. People are sitting in the aisles on the stairs for three and a half hours for this movie, my parents and my brother and I got separated.

1:13:24 I had to sit by myself for the movie and as the movie finished, there's so many moments where the audience kind of cheered or grown or, you know, they were in it for the whole time, but when the credits came up and Frodo leaves on the ship, I don't know if I've ever heard a plow Applause louder than I heard in that. Moment. I mean, it was just reverberating through this theater. It was a magical moment for me. I just think that this movie, it's just perfect for me. And I agree with you 100%. This movie is not perfect, it deserves a 9 and a half. But for me, like, I kind of love that I am DB doesn't give you half stars because it forces you to think. Like, yep, I give this a nine and a half on the podcast. But is it more of a 10-9 and a half or more Of a nine, nine and a half.

1:14:18 And for me this one is definitely much more of a ten nine and a half. And so I'm actually going to give it a 10 out of 10. I think that the Lord of the Rings trilogy is perfect and I'll Never back down from that. All right, here's what I'm going to say because next week is going to be our bracket challenge. So we're going to start with all 32 movies from season 4. We're going to whittle it down to one Champion. Brad. I don't, I don't want to just disqualify a movie, but I will say, I don't know. How the brackets going to look yet. I don't think I want a Lord of the Rings versus Lord of the Rings final. So if possible, I think we should go into our bracket challenge with that in mind.

1:14:58 That only one of them can be in the championship if they get that far. Do you think that's fair, Bob? I'm pretty sure you're trying to commit bracket fraud right now. You are trying to influence my vote. It is unacceptable. I will be submitting this audio clip to the Polo authorities. This is unacceptable by, right? I'm disappointed in you, all right? I'm at will work on you but we want to know what you think, filmin whiskey Nation. We came out to a nine point seven five out of 10 on this movie. If you agree with either of us, if you disagree, if you think, Lord of the Rings is terrible. You can certainly try to make your case by reaching out to us on social media where you can find us on Facebook, Twitter or Instagram at film whiskey, or you can leave us a voicemail. Let your voice be heard on the film whiskey. Podcast about the one of the greatest films of all time Return of the King.

1:15:50 Any other opinions are silly invalid but but very valid and we would love to listen to them. When you leave them on our website, which is anchored dot f. M /, film whiskey. We will see you next week for part one of our bracket challenge. But until then I'm Bob book, I'm Reggie and we'll see you next time.