Terminator 2: Judgment Day / Knob Creek Bourbon (ft. Ian Nathan)

0:00 In 1991 director, James Cameron and starred Arnold Schwarzenegger. Gave the world an explosive sequel. That reverse roles for one of the greatest villains of all time. In 2023, we take a return trip to Kentucky, to try one of the Jim Beam corporations, small batch selections. The film is Terminator, 2: Judgment Day. The whiskey is Knob Creek nine year and more of you them, both this is the film and whiskey podcast, welcome to the film and whiskey podcast, where each week, we review a classic movie and a glass of whiskey.

0:56 I'm Bob book, I'm Brad G and this week we are Wrapping up our four-week mini retrospective of the films of James, Cameron with 1991's Terminator, 2, Judgment Day. Brad I have been waiting for this week for a long time and in my professional opinion you know as a man who analyzes film on the regular this film freaking rips. Dude, this is such a good movie and, you know, it's a recurring theme with our James Cameron episode. So far that we haven't gone as deep into the the Deep themes of his movies. Because there is so much there to talk about from a technical standpoint and because Cameron is just Just, you know, frankly not the most subtle in terms of burying his themes. So it's been really interesting and kind of brief to talk about his films so far.

1:52 And I think today is really no exception to that. Yeah, I mean for me coming into T2 I was excited to see that it was made in 1991 because as I got through the film, I realized there's like almost no trace of the 80s in this movie and that immediately bumped it up in my Noted hater of 1980s culture. Brad G has emerged. And if you're joining us right now, you can hear in the background, a third chuckle, and that chuckle belongs to our special guest for the day, film writer and historian, Ian, Nathan, he's joining us all the way from the UK. It is 8 p.m. at the time of recording. We had initially asked him to come on at a time that would have been 1:30 in the morning his time. So thank you for being flexible and making concessions in and we appreciate you.

2:40 Being here now, obviously, pleasure, and I want to Delights talk about 10 minutes to Judgment Day. You have to kind of put the emphasis on Judgement Day, no matter how you say Judgment Day, that's what it is. The first question, and maybe the most important that I'll ask you is, did the UK release of this film include the, the e in the word judgment. Now, it didn't, it didn't end things that confounded sub-editors and sort of designers. In the UK, I used to work on the film magazine. And we always have to think about Judgment Day. I he was one of the girls little rule book and it was always like Terminator 2 Judgment Day Noe. Oh, how was that one? What are these Americans?

3:20 Like, they're polluting our language, but we had to accept without all those extra. He's they have in their right. Well we're going to take Ian's word at face value today because he is one of the UK's best known film writers. He's a former editor at Empire. He was editor-in-chief of Empire online. He'd been the producer of the Empire awards for 15 years. He also literally wrote the book on James Cameron. In addition, to writing retrospectives on a number of filmmakers, he has a newly released book on James Cameron. It's not his first book on James Cameron or his films which is I think what makes them even more of an expert in our eyes. So and I have to ask you, you know, you've written books on the Cullen Brothers, you've written you know, Wes Anderson Guillermo del Toro, what is it about Cameron's films and Cameron as a figure that makes you continue to return to him as a subject.

4:10 That's it's a very good question. I think part of it is how I grew up and the films are grew up with. And the age. I was seeing the original Terminator on VHS and sort of coming in and seeing aliens, which had a profound effect on me at cinema, and in the levels of excitement, and aliens, still hit me. And then terminated to coming in 1991, I just started to become a film writer and critic at that point and the anticipation for Terminator 2 was. So Huge. So he's a huge part of my life. Press, when you write about directors and you choose your subjects, there's a sense of what will make a great book.

4:52 What will tell a great story? And as I'm sure you guys have been talking about in the previous week's, there's pretty few directors, who tell a story like James Cameron, and the story of the making of his films is equally incredible. So he's such a great subject to that group. Grapple with to tell. And as a sort of it's a quote machine. He is a just a fabulous self mythologize. A he just talks like statements, you know, one liners camera and gives you the material. And it just is one of the Innocence of the easiest books I've ever in only. And I mean, it was easy because it's a easy subject. It's just that the story flows from one film to the next and the momentum of Cameron's life is just incredible. So he was Of a gift, in a way, we've done a few things on the podcast, where the making of the film is the stuff of Legend in, you know, obviously Apocalypse Now is probably the prime example of that.

5:50 And that, fantastic documentary, hearts of Darkness, that came out of that. And with Cameron, I feel like you get those stories with every subsequent film there. I mean, the behind-the-scenes gems from movies like this. The ringer did a fantastic oral history. Auntie to a couple years ago and I was reading through it today and just pulling quotes out of Because like you said to hear camera and talk about himself and talk about his belief in his own, ambition is hilarious, but it's also something that he continually backs up. He sold off the rights for Titanic in our, he waved his director's fee on Titanic. He did kind of a similar thing with the first Terminator, where he sold off his own rights to the film, to make sure that it got released, and that played a huge part in whether or not, they could secure the rights to even make Terminator 2.

6:40 And so, So, you know, he talks a big game but he's also willing to go to some pretty drastic lengths to make sure that his vision is realized up on the screen. Yeah, I mean, people always talk about James Cameron's ego and it was the here that the kind of power of His personality. There's a great quote, from Michael, biehn is always said that James Cameron doesn't have an ego. His films have an ego. So when he makes them the films are just, you know, the obsession that he has and they are the driving force, they're more important than The money. He makes them more important than the power. He wields, the film is all important and turns. I think turns him into something of a Madman sometimes to get to where he needs to be. But pursuing that vision is what Cameron wants to do. And what he's so good at and with the strength and talent that He has often, he gets near to that thing in his head, I don't know if he's ever quite got to the perfect films in his head but that is the driving force behind him. He he honestly feels like a real life version of almost every single Tom, Cruise character from the BBC did in the 80s and 90s like just utterly driven to prove everyone wrong and create the best possible version of whatever it is that he's good at, you know, for Cameron it's movies and and he makes a hell of a good movie, man.

8:03 Yeah, I really say. Yeah. James Cameron's biggest rival is James Cameron. So he's always got to go. One better than himself. He's always got to kind of Outreach what he did before and go further. And, you know, it must be really hard living in James Cameron's head because the drive to better yourself all the time just goes on and on, oh, absolutely. To the point where in order to realize these Visions, he has to invent new technology with each film. He makes now, it's not even a question of. All right, how do I secure the funding or how do I get the perfect, you know, assemble the perfect dream that passed its, how do I invent a camera that can Actually capture these things that are going on in my mind. And once I do that, then I can go ahead and execute the film.

8:45 It's staggering the kind of things that are going on in his mind. Yeah, yeah. In some ways, he did, the word director doesn't really apply to James Cameron. He's Explorer inventor. So, diviner of the future and it has an astonishing Instinct and it's something. I don't think he would be able to explain himself for what Mass audiences want. You know, if you look at the figures, On his films as a show you been doing. Yeah. He puts everyone in the shade lucre Spielberg all the great hit film makers of the Modern Age then nothing can. But you know, compared to Cameron in fact, when I did that on the new book, I kind of calculated presuming.

9:27 You can't really put a value on the Mona Lisa or the Sistine Chapel James Cameron is the most successful artists of all time in any medium, you know, he as an Do I know you can say Disney as a corporation, make sure it money, but but as an individual is no one who comes close to him. And yet he's kind of neglected in a way. He's kind of always just sort of he's over there doing his thing. Yeah, one of the reasons I wanted to write a book about him now because I thought there wasn't enough out there that took him seriously, and I wanted to do that. Well, we are incredibly excited that you're on board today to join us in that endeavor. We are going to switch over to America's favorite segments, and I say that, like in a very combative way because we're joined by our UK counterparts today. But America's favorite segment is called, Brad explains. This is where Brad breaks down the plot of the movie that he has just seen often for the first time. Brad was this your first time viewing Terminator 2. This was my absolute first time the film up. So excited.

10:32 I'm so excited. Site. For those of you who are new to the podcast, the central conceit of what we're doing here is that I grew up consuming movies frequently and voraciously, I'm a huge, huge film buff, and Brad is one of my best friends and we started kind of introducing each other to our shared loves of films and whiskey. When we lived in Kentucky together, a few years back. And so each week, we're watching a new classic movie. And a lot of times that means that Brad is catching it for the very first time. It is always a surprise. In a movie as successful as something like Terminator 2, has gone unseen by Brad. But that also means that we get the most unfiltered version of Brad. He has, you know, there's not a lot of historical context taken into consideration. It's just, was this good?

11:18 Was it not good? Was I bored? And that is what Brad explains is all about Brad. We've put a minute on the clock for you to break down the plot of this movie and go to butt naked. Robots are sent back from the future in order. To track down a human. This human is a 10 year old who's pretty much a fourteen-year-old going through puberty pretty hard. He is the future leader of the resistance. One of these robots looks like the robot from the last movie played by Arnold Schwarzenegger and he this time is sent to protect John Connor. The other robot is sent to kill. John Connor, chaos ensues Connors mother is an absolute badass and is able to just destroy everyone and she's really cool and is awesome.

12:11 She's also in a mental ward and has to get broken out and they stop cyberdyne from making the Terminators and they win the war. The end Island. I love when you can tell that the pressure of the moment is mounting as the last 20 seconds tick away because Brad just start saying stuff like she's cool and she's awesome I would give this movie One thumbs up. There you go. Oh man. Alright Brad where would you like to start today? Do you want to talk a little bit about this movie in relation to the first Terminator? Do you just want to give opening thoughts on Cameron's film making? Do you want to Dive Right In Performances. Where should we steer this ship?

12:53 I think it's worth talking about the performances because for me the the primary reason this film jumps to a new level from the original Terminator is because I think you get much better performances out of everybody involved. You know, I think that Michael biehn was really really great in the first one but comparatively for me. I think that T2 has just really awesome performances from everybody. You see Schwarzenegger growing as an actor. I think that Furlong as John Connor does a really great job and Linda Hamilton just goes on steroids and is awesome. So yeah, let's start with Linda Hamilton. So one of our first, you know, our chief complaints from the first film was that Linda Hamilton is not really given enough to do on the page and so there for her. Then kind of suffers a little bit for that Cameron took a lot of inspiration from the slashers of the late 70s, and early 80's for the original Terminator film. And in a lot of ways, Linda Hamilton is a variation on that last girl, quote-unquote throat.

14:06 And I think here, you know, obviously there was a little bit of coaxing involved to get Linda Hamilton back on board, but the way they flush the character out and she kind of had a stated goal that she wanted to be crazy in this movie. And it's really interesting to read camera and talk about it because he's like, what do you mean crazy? Like you're in an institution, she's like, yeah, I just want to be crazy, just make sure that's in there at some point. It's like all right. Cool, we'll do it. She know she works out for I do a months-long regimen with a personal trainer Brad. This was one of the first times that you really started to see the the sculpting of the female body on screen in a way like this where there was bodybuilding involved and that, you know, the first time you see her, she's doing chin-ups and It was something that audience is at 91. We're not really prepared for and especially that physical transformation from part 1, 2 part 2, here, it really does kind of foreshadow what's to come with the way that her character is going to transform?

15:06 And I think it's, I mean, just first of all, great job with the personal trainer she looks amazing but it's a really great visual cue for where this story is going and that means that it's going an unpredictable places. Yeah, I think. For me with with Linda Hamilton. What she really did best was show how knowledge of the future can really break you as a person and I think that there's a few key moments where you can tell you like, oh, she's a really great actress for me. It's the moment where she sees Arnold for the first time. Yeah. Oh my gosh, the the absolute Terror and fear on her face as she runs back into the arms of her captors.

15:50 To get away from him is perfection. It makes the first movie like worth watching just to see that scene that, you know, obviously the first movie is worth watching on its own, but just to understand that the rawness of that scene, I oh my gosh, dude, that was incredible. Yeah it's just it's great too. If you look at the concept to Terminator 2 it's everything is inversion. So yeah, Arnold is bad. In the first film, he's good in this film and I think, when they They came to sort of create character is Sarah Connor. And as you say, Linda Hamilton sort of was coming, you say, I want to be crazy. Jim, I'm not coming back and it's me crazy. It made perfect sense to Cameron when she said that because obviously she knows the world is going to end and No One Believes her and that's going to drive you mad.

16:38 But the idea brilliantly, is that, in a sense to, to combat the future to somehow defeat what's coming. She's turning herself into a Terminator. Yeah and if you look at the the Unit the forms with on a power and Edward Furlong you know, in the sense the joke is that she's a better Terminator and he's a better mother. Hmm. The boy is that? Everything is inverted. Yeah and that's kind of this, the great skill of Cameroon is to take expectation. Certainly of a sequel and say, well, I'm going to work out how to spin everything on its head with the first film. Sarah Connor is the least likely person to Mother the future. He's unlike this car waitress in LA.

17:20 Say now he's saying right? Well how can I turn her from what we saw in the first film? Into this extraordinary vision of kind of tough Commando asked violence in a way and it is say she trained for a year. I think with Israeli armed forced teacher, and she could pull out a weapon apart without looking, and she could pick her own blocks. I mean, is absolute almost method dedication from Linda Hamilton. And I think what I love about Cameron in the way he subverts things is, he doesn't do it in such a way that is like making fun of or ripping down on the past. Like I feel like if you think about the words subverting expectations in 2022, you almost know that if somebody's trying to do that they're doing.

18:12 So in such a way where it's dishonoring the past and like saying that the past was bad. Whereas I think what Cameron does here is Is he just twists what he did in the first movie? But he does it in such a way that a, it makes sense within the world of the film. Like you said, yes, she has seen the, the coming end of all Humanity. So this would make sense for her, but he does it in such a way where you still see her humanness breakthrough, she has moments where, you know, she's trying to kill this this computer programmer and she can't do it and and she's almost weeping afterwards and you know her son brings out the best in her. The Way, any child, should bring out the best in their parents. And so there's so many moments like that as well, that that camera just hits all the right beats with her area of the story.

19:02 Yeah, absolutely. And you can, obviously there's the chain of characters in Cameron's films except spoken about a lot, strong female leads. But, you know, there's a lot of rickly in her and his work was corny. Weaver there's the terrific Mary Elizabeth Mastrantonio from the abyss, there's kind of a progression. I think and he's returned to Sarah. Connor is very much like includes those performances before and his own mother Cameron's own mother, you know, belong to this of Canadian Reserve Army and would go away on weekends in fatigues and you know, you had a stripped-down rifles. So I think there's a lot of Cameron's mother in there as well with the character. I'm really interested in it has camera never gone on record talking about the way that his deepening of the character of Ripley.

19:50 In Aliens informed, the way he deep in the character of Sarah Connor here, like does he like to draw that comparison or is that something that he kind of leaves on said? He's never made a direct comparison in that way. I think he's certainly spoken about his progression as a director was very influenced by the people. He got to work with and it's Sigourney Weaver was very important to him in the sense of you know she's tough to go any Weaver. So she took stood up to him and his Hans. And I think he learned a lot from how to handle an actress with Sigourney Weaver that he took forward into the the future films and I just think he has come back to the word Instinct. You know, the idea is that he sort of fleshes out with in his films are always driven by human themes, and I will come on two things.

20:41 But motherhood keeps returning as a theme in the films and terminated to it is a film about motherhood, which is not a great mother. He's gone mad but she has to awaken to the idea that actually, as well as trying to save Humanity. She's got a sort of save her relationship with her son. That's Cameron. Yeah. He dresses up, apocalyptic ideas in very Universal themes and like he says, every film I make is a love story and I kind of get that they're not necessarily romantic love stories at this little jerk about family. Love stories but that's what drives the the kind of accessibility of his films. Well, any up for all of his An innovation, he keeps hitting on a very specific formula that I suppose, if it's not broke, don't fix it.

21:26 But all of his sequels have improved upon their predecessors. I would say, that's my opinion by adding the element of family as the chief thematic component. Right. I mean, he doesn't aliens by introducing that character to be alongside Ripley. He does it here with Terminator 2. He just did it with Avatar. The way of water. I was really blown away at the The emotional depth that Cameron was kind of able to plumb with that movie and the way that he chooses to end that film, I'm not, I know. I'm sure by now, most people have seen it, but I'm not going to give away the final scene of that film, but it was so small and so quiet and so profoundly heartbreaking for a James Cameron film, and I thought it was a really bold move to end the film that way, but you know what?

22:14 He take a step back and just kind of look at it from a 30,000 foot view, it just kind of seems like he has Found the secret to success for sequels, and that is introduced those emotional Stakes that were absent from the first entry. Absolutely. He fundamentally he's like Hitchcock and that and, and Spielberg directed toward a degree in that, he thinks from the perspective of the audience to what will they feel? And think from his films, you know, not what can I do, how will they react is what drives him then all the equivalents of technology and writing and ambition follow that? So, you know with Terminator, it wasn't just a case of how do I do, how can I better the first film? How can I do more?

22:57 It's about what moves people, what drives the audience to feel things. And any other famous story is that William wish you who wrote the screenplay with him is that his old friend. When they sat down. Finally, to write Terminator 2 cameras, got this kind of weathered yellow legal pad and he's just written on the Terminator. Comes back from the future to save the boy. Boy, he's going to make me out to look after the boy and he says to William Wisher goes, I'm going to make audiences cry for a Terminator. He said that will prove what Cinema can do. I think the subject series that's what prove what James Cameron can do, and, of course, right, he does make us cry for a Terminator. Yeah. The most absurd concept possible by the end, it's like Old Yeller. We're just sweeping.

23:42 Yeah, you know, for the end of a Terminator. So emotion is the the kind of the driving force of Cameron's films, and even Beyond the the emotion of, like, Nostalgia. And that that love for Arnold. You have in this film, I found T2 to be one of the funniest action movies I've ever watched. Like, there's so many moments in this film, where I was just roaring laughing and, you know, it helps to watch it at your house. You don't have to worry about laughing in a theater with other people who are taking it really seriously. But there's so many moments where Arnold reaches down and picks up. Up like a one and a half year old and just examined him the way of robot would. As everybody else is just talking around and paying no attention to him.

24:28 I just thought there were so many little moments like this where Cameron his comedy just worked. Well, I think that's that's Testament as well. And to segue back into the performances here, you know, Arnold is the only other person that we're going to talk about today that was in the first film and his growth as an actor throughout the Is to the point where you get this film in 1991. Directors had figured out how to leverage his charm and his comedic timing, which I don't think people like John Milius even knew that he would have had comedic timing and Arnold is a really, really skilled comedy actor. By the time you get to T2 and Cameron will leverage that even further when he gets to True Lies a few years after this and you know, it again credits, a camera and for utilizing it.

25:14 But I think the main thing that I took away was I'm glad that Cameron gave Arnold the space to be Charming in this film. And when he gives that little grin towards the end of the film, it's like, oh my gosh, I just saw a Terminator smile and I'm totally buying it at this point. And that is a huge Testament to Arnold's performance. He's playing a cyborg. And yet, I think he hits all the Beats. He supposed to hit pretty much flawlessly. Absolutely great. I think it's his best performance time and I see that it's real subtlety in it. And again, such a kind of nutty thing to say, is How about a guy playing a Terminator? How can we be subtle? But obviously the idea with this kind of new version of the T800, the Arnie model of of Terminator is that he's learning and he's learning from the boy.

26:04 So it's got a trajectory in which he sort of picks up. He becomes more human as the film goes on because he's learning what it is to be human. So it's a great Arc that the film gives him plus, it's still channels. What we know of Original Terminator that body language the can in dominant ability, the going, the path of least resistance stuff, which is very funny and very skillfully raise. I mean the opening sequence alone of terminated to when it goes into the biker bar and there's a kind of classic bar fight but it's just hilarious and it's signals very quickly to the audience that you're going to be allowed to laugh. At this film, is gonna be a lot of serious stuff is gonna be a lot of action, a lot of fear in the film, but, There's going to be comedy, Cameron's were with his opening sequence which are nice or beat up lower, Hells Angels and drives away on the Harley. At the end just goes, yeah, he's just a great sort of sigh of relief almost as you see it and go. Okay, we're within now.

27:05 Also like when you talk about him filming it in a sense from the Viewpoint of the audience, the idea of mr. Universe just walking around Buck Naked, it's just Purely funny like there's no way around that. It just it just hits all the right notes and it's little things like that where you're just like yeah. There's certain things he repeated from the first film. They arrived naked at it. It's just funny. And it shouldn't because it's, you know, it's an action horror film. But man, this movie made me laugh. Well, and to go back to something that you in was saying, I think part of the reason the Comedy Works so well is it's the construction of the story and it is the Of the T1000 played by Robert Patrick and how the, you know, the kind of central conflict between the two of them is that there is an upgraded model now and that provides so much kind of comic tension and a great comic setup and you see it played out in so many different places across film. But even though the Terminator, you know, Arnold Terminator is practically invincible and Incredibly intelligent and certainly much smarter than any human. It's played kind of as a buffoon in a lot of ways, he's clumsy, he's very robotic and his movement. He doesn't understand the queues of humor or emotion and so you get to kind of play up those Iron Giant type, you know, tropes about him, you know, and I mean I was even thinking just a moment ago about the Buzz

28:37 Lightyear and Woody element in Toy Story. There's a new upgraded model that Andy wants to play with now and so because the audience has that incredibly terrifying, new figure to look at And another obstacle that Sarah and John Connor have to overcome. You can then look back on the the Arnold Schwarzenegger Terminator and and play up the humor in that situation. I think it's really brilliant that by introducing that upgraded model you immediately introduced a great source of humor into the film and it was something that I think was really desperately needed because the first film is so serious throughout that having those like pressure release valves throughout the movie as the engine builds, Cameron executes them flawlessly.

29:24 Yeah it's yeah. They're a very sort of Concepts that Cameron worked through in the intervening years and he always thought well you've got to go better with the sequel, you know, it's called T2, she always had a to Terminator idea. One concept was to Arnie's a good army and a bad Arnie but he does thought how am I going to tell them apart? And you know one's going to have to be damaged very early so you know it's that Terminator and it just got too complicated and he said That down that well, how do I turn on will shortz? Tanker into an underdog and that. Yeah, he's the Terminator as you saying is virtually unbreakable but the concept of the liquid metal man and this kind of infiltration unit but also there's the idea of him playing a cop as well. Embodying kind of authority whereas on he's a Hells Angel definite leather, jackets and to your Authority. This is lovely kind of sort of comparisons. The film sets up and you say, Terminator, the original Terminator wasn't polio comedy.

30:30 I would kind of say it was a, quite a bit of black comedy in its own way. And that's down to Schwarzenegger. Yeah, he's funny in the first film and he's funny in this film. This kind of self-mockery going on, that's very appealing, as you're saying the charm of it works really well. Well let's go ahead and talk about the other two main performers in the film. And I think I want to start with Robert Patrick because we've already been talking. About him playing the T1000. And again, I think that the performance matches really well with what's on the page. But I also think that this is a credit to Cameron when you introduce a character like this, that there is so much, ah, and so much, I don't know. Inquisitiveness on, on the part of the audience, you want to learn more about this thing because it is so wholly. New the technology to represent, it was entirely new, but also it makes so much sense from a narrative standpoint that Okay, if the machines are losing the war, and the original line of Terminators are not working because they're too obvious. What's the next step?

31:32 Well, we're going to make something that can morph into anything else, where subtlety is the name of the game and Cameron really wanted to have somebody represented physically that looked different from Arnold Schwarzenegger whereas Arnold walks into a room and everyone knows I cannot defeat that man and hand-to-hand combat. You know, Robert Patrick walks in a room and he is certainly more agile. He's a lot thinner. He's a You know, just a Slimmer build, but also making him a police officer like you said, he and so that he can infiltrate those spaces, not simply through brute strength, but through disguise and camouflage. I think it's a really great narrative. Touch, I also was just fascinated with like the culture of the 80s and 90s that a police officer could just drive up to a, you know, secure tech company company facility.

32:20 And they're just like, oh, it's a police officer. What is the just let em in? He's gray. And yeah, one of the great things about rubber Patrick's performance and it was vital is used for talking about that. They gave the the T1000, the villain a personality, a character and Not only was it about being a policeman, he has that wonderful quality that was kind of there with Arnold Schwarzenegger in the first film or being. Just slightly irritated when things go wrong. That you know the Cameron allows The machines have a kind of flicker of annoyance. Yeah. When his plans keep kind of unraveling, you know, he's kind of attempts to kill. This boy, is kind of a fantastic, kind of in-joke. I think just about the kind of the idea of while they are machines.

33:09 The audience is always going to project sort of Humanity on them. And they kind of project it back. We kind of see ourselves in the Terminators a little bit, think, absolutely. Brad, what's your take on Robert Patrick? I think he's incredible. I think the way he runs is perfect like he has such like I think own, I mentioned him already, but I think only Tom Cruise might have better running form in film history than Robert. Patrick has here, like speaking as somebody who ran track for 10 years and continues to run like there's right ways to run and there's wrong ways to run if you want to do it fast.

33:50 You know if that's your goal and Robert Patrick Nails it and he put so much time and effort into this role that he trained to the point where he could Sprint flat out without breathing heavily and that like I will tell you that is a lot of work to get to that point and you know he's chasing Edward Furlong on the dirt bike and I'm like 90% sure that he could have caught up with that dirt bike at any point. He wanted to All right, let's talk about Edward Furlong because this is a performance that has been really interesting to watch reactions to over the last 30 years. It was initially initially kind of praised and then almost immediately pay. And again, and I feel like our societal impulse towards criticizing children.

34:39 Has swung back in the other direction now. And so, people have re-evaluated this performance. I actually think it's a really great performance, and I think that if there's anything to criticize, its, you know, it's some of Cameron's dialogue writing which is a recurring theme. We've talked about with Cameron but especially for someone who was essentially a non professional actor prior to this film, I think Furlong does a really, really great job and when it most matters at the end of the film he brings the goods in those emotional final moments with Arnold Schwarzenegger. And so you know can you forgive subpar line reading here and there? Absolutely I think the kids really really good. He is and he's crucial as well. I mean, Cameron says cities that have all the special effects, all the kind of revolution in CGI, all the armies and and Linda Hamilton's will mean nothing if we don't get John Connor right, you know, he's been essentially is the protagonist of the film.

35:35 The boy, says, a lot of weight on his shoulders. And I think Cameron light the rawness he was found at Boys and Girls Club in Pasadena had never acted. He had a kind of troubled, family background. What kind of a Ko's of John Connor in him and yeah, he was yeah, he needed molding definitely and if you look at the performance, some of it can be a little silly, the goofy or elements don't maybe play as well, but I think the emotion does and the Charisma does. Yeah. He's a spark Edward Furlong in the film and you know, off screen and on the chemistry was shorts, Maga is great. I think shorts - really took him under his wing in the production camera was off doing all the Big staff and the stunts and the facts on those things. A lot of the work I think in terms of furlongs performance actually came through Schwarzenegger and hymns are guiding him through the film.

36:29 And yeah, maybe you can argue, there are sort of Greater child performances and maybe could have been better performances, but it gets me when I watched the film and it doesn't pull me out of it. And yeah, he got to give credit to that. I think he gives a great job. I was actually very proud of Wife, we were watching this and my wife famous for not knowing actors or actresses. Names was like, oh, you know, who the the kid reminds me of. I was like, who's that honey? And she goes Haley, Joel Osment in Secondhand Lions and I was like, hey, you just remembered his name so Props for that but be why, she's like I don't know, they both just have that like preteen squeaky sincerity that just really fits for the Movies that they're in and I was like babe that is that's a good film analysis there.

37:23 I was gonna say I think the the connecting thread is the changing voice. Peter, Brady syndrome easily yeah. All right guys, I think we're in a good spot here on the performances. Let's go ahead and take a break. Let's drink some whiskey, and then we'll come back and talk about all the rest of this. Because, I mean, I want to talk about the CGI. I want to talk about the gigantic explosions of this. Explosive James Cameron film, Go a little bit deeper on the themes but Brad, let's try this Knob Creek. What do you say? Let's get to it. Some whiskey Nation. Do you ever think about Awards, of course, you do you drink whiskey and watch movies. Which means that, you know, that nothing is validated until a group of random people say, hey, we love what you're doing.

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38:51 Now you can find them online at docks whisky.com, that's doccs whisky.com. Alright. Today we are checking out Knob Creek Brad this is the first time that we've ever reviewed just the regular old Knob Creek on our podcast. We've tried I believe a single barrel Knob Creek way back in season one or two that we got down at our friends Justin's house of bourbon in Lexington Kentucky. So we've tried a barrel proof version of this but we've never just tried you know the standard Knob Creek before. Can't believe we made it this long. Yeah, I'm really excited to get into it today. I I'm honestly trying to remember any thoughts. I had on that original version.

39:40 We tried and I for the life of me man, I can't think of what I thought about it. Well, we'll get into this one pretty quickly here, but just for some background Knob Creek as part of what Jim Beam calls their small batch collection, which is comprised of Knob Creek basil, Hayden's Booker's and Hers, Bourbons. So there's one it kind of every proof point. If you like a low proof whiskey then basil, Hayden's is the way to go. This is the next one up at 100 Proof. Then you've got Baker's at 107 and Booker's is always bottled at Cask strength Brad. I think this means that the only one of the four that we have not tried is Baker's. So we gotta get on that. Now, we got to complete the set here. I have had Baker's before and can confirm good whiskey whiskey.

40:28 Yes. Like I said, this is bottled at 100 proof, it carries a nine-year age statement meeting. It's been in the barrel for nine years for a while there. Jim Beam was releasing this without an age statement. Which just means they were probably blending it with some younger whiskey. But now it carries that nine-year age statement, which means the youngest whiskey in this bottle is at least nine years of age. It's 77 percent corn, 13% rye and 10% malted barley in the mash bill. So this not a for grain recipe and Brad at, you know, not to spoil. Anything here. I've been sippin on it already and I can tell that this definitely has some rye in it. This thing packs a little bit of a punch for me. Yeah it definitely gets a little bit spicy throughout.

41:11 Yeah. I think we should just get into it Bob because I have thoughts I do too. And we're joined again here by Ian Nathan. It's pretty rare that our guest for the day, actually sits down and drinks the whiskey with us, but and you were if I may say so, yes, pretty, pretty, eager to join and we are happy to have you along on the journey. Me here? Yeah, I am a mo Whiskey. Drinking, I do. Enjoy a nice bourbon as well. So when you suggested, I not only would I talk about movies that I'd also drink whiskey. Well, that persuaded me sir. I'm very interesting to bring a bring a high level of discussion to the nature of whiskey as well. Absolutely, good thing. All right guys let's Dive Right In.

41:51 So our first category that we score our Whiskey's on is the nose. So when you take, you know, a little sniff of this on the Roma. What do you pick up here? Brad. I don't think that this one is super complex for me. Like the first thing I got, you know, aside from the ethanol because it's 100 proof is. This smelled a lot like Coca-Cola to me. It had those kind of like almost artificial caramely notes to it and a little bit of that, the coke bubbles the effervescence. So I got Coca-Cola, I got caramel the Rye was a lot more prominent on this than I would have been led to believe. So they definitely had a us about it. That I really like, I think it's pretty inviting even though it's not the most complex whiskey we've ever nosed. I think I would give it about a seven and a half on the nose. Yeah, I'm actually in the exact same places as you with a seven-and-a-half.

42:43 Bob for me, I got some softer notes. I had some honey on the front end, a little bit of vanilla, there was some, some floral aspects to this. It had a lightness to it, but I will say, there is a, there's a decent amount of grainy. As well at that came across. When you were talking about Cola for me it was more of just like a corn syrup and almost a raw corn. Feel honestly a pretty Pleasant nose over. Also yeah seven half for me D and where are you feeling with the nose here? Yeah I kind of liken car a little bit. I thought you know caramel toffee very much a kind of like look Christmassy kind of flavor.

43:25 Now you mentioned Coca-Cola, I do get that as well but also So you mentioned the kind of the the kind of floral element to it very much getting that the kind of the sort of highlights that come off it, it's very pleasant to smell quite traditional. I suppose with those kind of caramelly Honey notes, I would go seven and a half. Yeah, I've always been curious, you know, from from someone in the UK, your perspective of American whiskey. I have a feeling, I mean, if I was one of you, I would probably think about, you know, the palate of a bourbon is very much in line with just American palates in general, because it's so much sweeter than you normally get with a scotch or an Irish whiskey.

44:09 Do you find it? Like hard to adjust expectations when you're going between, you know, a scotch or an Irish whiskey and bourbon. I don't want to difficult. I do understand the differences having drunken far more of the, the the kind of traditional Irish and Scottish Whiskey's sometimes find when I have a bourbon. The immediate reaction is it's very sweet. Uh-huh. And yeah you Jack Daniels, you zzt obvious one. You suddenly think whoa. Is that? That's a bit too. Nice. You know it goes down too easily which is a danger yum with this one. As I said I had a few sips. There's this nice as you mentioned spicy early on, there's some nice sort of yeah so I kind of bitterness to it. That is quite a pleasant because it sort of works against the sweetness but generally speaking a I'm kind of ready for a bourbon when I have it.

45:02 I do know. It's going to be a little bit more on the sweeter side. Yeah, I think that's a great segue into our tasting category here. Brad. I actually thought that this was surprisingly soft on the palate compared to the nose. I just, I really expected almost like a, you know, a cake icing type of flavor on this, because it really felt like it was going to have a lot of brown sugar or Maple flavors to it. It was less sweet than I anticipated to Ians Point really, really okey. I think the nine years in the barrel definitely present themselves here and it didn't quite go bitter. But certainly not sweet. I do appreciate it, felt very oily in my mouth.

45:43 It definitely coded my palate. Well, I didn't find it to be especially harsh alcohol-wise even at 100 proof. I liked this but it definitely was a step down from the nose for me. So I think I'll give it a 7 out of 10. Yeah, I am right there with you man. For me, it continued to be corn heavy. Some of those floral notes came through but the oakiness a little bit of a clove spice came into it. It was good but a step down from the nose. So I'll give it a six and a half there. Yeah. I say, I very much like the, the kind of did the kind of duality of it. They kind of this Suite in the front of the tongue and a pepperiness, the back of the tongue. So I've got with the seven.

46:26 All right. And that takes us to finish. Now, this is where we kind of consider what flavors. What Sensations are left behind on the palate after you swallow for me Brad. This was all Oak. I mean it really turned super Oak heavy on the end for me and there's really not much else there. I wasn't left with any lingering sweetness there. Wasn't any even for me like any corn left on this again. Not bitter. And I guess there's a probably a touch of some brown sugar or something, but yeah, I'm a little bit. To because the nose was really inviting. And I feel like each successive step of the tasting is just a slight step down for me. I'm going to give it a 7 but I would say that this is merely good. Not great.

47:10 Yeah. I man, I really want to enjoy this whiskey. Bob, I feel like there's something going on here, but the Finish was really where I struggled with this. It just kind of dissipated into nothingness. For me, I didn't feel like there was enough flavor. Waiver on the back end of this experience to give it a high score, it wasn't bad. You know. It was Okie that I continued to see that corn coming through. There was some caramel notes but overall it didn't last long enough for have enough complexity for me to truly enjoy it. It's okay on the finish. I give it a six out of ten. The often tastes to me is similar to what you said. It's where the weakest element. I'm left.

47:52 Mainly with the, the kind of the darker notes this stronger sort of Peppery spicy notes the the kind of nice caramel flavor has gone very quickly. It's not the most Pleasant aftertaste of of a bourbon I've ever had. It's sort of a bit of a little bit of an up and down. It starts nicely and then disappears too quickly I think is a flavor. So a little bit disappointing. In terms of the the pecan of the after effects, I hanging around quality so I'd give it a five and a half Anytime that I'm asked to score something out, I feel like my years and years of reading, Roger, Ebert film reviews and his four-star scale has really just made made that the Baseline for everything for me. And when I think about the balance of this whiskey, so considering the tasting experience overall was anything standing out in a you know an insanely positive or an insanely negative way or was it fairly consistent. I feel like this is a three-star movie version of The Whisky She like it's good.

48:54 I'm glad that I had it. I enjoyed it but nothing really stood out to me and so on the balance I don't think I'm going to like ding it there Brad, but I think I will just give it a seven point five out of ten. Now I'll give it a 6 out of 10. Oh okay yeah it was decently balanced but there wasn't any one area that stood out and it got consistently worse as I went along. So for me the balance was a little bit of a Go. It's interesting. You talk about the star rating. We start, when I worked on Empire Magazine's, we have five star rating. They seem to be as far as the film PR's, were concerned, a huge Gulf between three and four.

49:36 I was the biggest Gap. They wanted four and three somehow was never good enough. And it is. This is, this is a three star 3 star Bourbon and to my mind. That's good. Yeah, that's, that's a high-quality. It's a decent movie as a mid-range, John Hughes movie, you can watch, Anna Christmas afternoon, And enjoy its nickel back of kind of Bourbons, but not quite up there with a Planes Trains and Automobiles, but ha, ha ha. All right, Brad, I'm turning it over to you, our resident knower of prices for our last category here which we call Value. So we usually base this off of how much it sells for in our home state of Ohio, prices vary throughout the United States and we will also get to how much it cost for even in the UK in just a moment.

50:23 But At how much is this, in Ohio, in the wonderful state of Ohio? This will set you back, $40, okay in the UK without taxes included, this is selling 436 pounds so roughly equivalent, you know? Yeah, Brad I think this is a little too expensive. Yes. Used to be priced at 35. It seems like they've raised the price a little bit at 35. I was going to give it a 7 out of 10 at 40. I think I'm just going to to give it like a five and a half out of ten. There's a lot better whiskey. You can give for $40 in this. Yeah, I actually think that this is a pretty rough price point. Honestly, $35 is decent.

51:07 But even there, I don't think I would give it a very high score. I think that this is like a twenty seven dollar whiskey. That's your, they're asking you to spend 40 bucks on, huh? I'm gonna give it a three and a half out of jail. My gosh. Okay, yeah, we were Watching like basil, Hayden's levels of poor value here, Brad. It seems like this might be like a recurring theme for Jim Beam. I was about to say that who makes Basil? Hey, there you go. All right, Ian, what do you think? Well study, six pounds sound sounds expensive to me for what it is and some very decent scotches and some varieties and Irish Whiskey's around for about 25 that I would prefer to drink than this.

51:50 It tastes they're overpriced. It feels over price for the Tastes. So I'm going to give it 5 out of 10 in terms of value for money. All right. Gentlemen, that is bringing my final score on this out to a 34.5 out of 50. Brad in, what are you coming out to? I am at a twenty nine point five out of 50. Okay. You're asking me to do the math, but I start 7, huh? I'm roughly the same as Brad, I reckon with. Okay? Yeah, I think so. That's a pretty Brad and me out to a score of 64 out of 100 or just a 32 out of 50. Now, normally 35 out of 50 is about our Baseline where we start recommending that you at least try the whiskey. So we're a little bit below that. Brad.

52:36 I don't think this is a bad whiskey and it was, it was pretty Central to my early whisky Journey because it was readily available. It was 100 proof, and I thought it was pretty darn good. I don't know if we've just had so many Whiskey's. Now that I've tried a lot better ones or if the quality of this has Creased, but I can't say that. I really recommend it even as like a starter whiskey. Yeah, I think that there's enough other options around the 30 dollar range that in my opinion are just better Whiskey's that. If I'm if I'm recommending you start in the world of bourbon specifically then I yeah I'm not going to recommend this and what do you think? Would you recommend trying at the bar or buying a bottle? Or neither II can't imagine buying a bottle. You know.

53:27 He's very kindly sent me a buckle. So I'll get through it. Don't worry about that. In terms of. Yeah. Would I choose it not necessarily there are better. Options is Brad. Say I think for the money and for cheaper, it doesn't persuade me that bourbon would be the drink of choice. It doesn't move me from whiskey to Bourbon. It keeps me on the whiskey side, so, you know, maybe it doesn't doesn't quite do the trick. Well, I guess the, the only question left to ask is, is this whiskey? Sufficiently high octane enough to match up with our film for today? I don't think this whiskey can kick enough ass to keep keep up with C2. All right.

54:08 Well guys, the whiskey might have been a bit of a letdown but this movie certainly isn't. So what do you say? We get back into discussing Terminator 2. Let's get to it. Let's do it. All right, everybody. That was Knob Creek bourbon whiskey. That were a little bit split on but overall, it's a good show. Yeah, I mean, you know, it used to be better at $35. Yes, the price hike is really, really kind of pissing me off Brad. Yeah, it makes it difficult to recommend, but you know what's very easy to recommend Bob, is it Terminator 2 Judgment Day? It's Canada's favorite segments to fax in a falsehood Uh-oh, two facts and a falsehood at which I am performing quite poorly this season. Yeah, I've been, I've been ringing your bell. I think I had your number last season, man. That was I went on like an 11 game winning streak. Yeah, I spent some time in the offseason, retooling, my roster, you know, getting bitten things, ready? And I am Moneyball analytics.

55:13 Yes, analytics. All right. So for those who are uninitiated, You facts in a falsehood is where Brad presents three items to me about the behind the scenes, making of This film, all of them are presented as fact. Only one of which we think is a complete fabrication and I have to suss out, which one is the falsehood? I'm not doing well, I'm, I think a game or two under 500 still, and we are about to wrap up the season, so I got to get a couple here. Brad before you start. I have to make a proposition to you. Last time we had a guest on the show, you told me that I was allowed to enlist the guess the past to help with this but I'm trying to remember what your bargain was that. Here's here's the deal.

55:58 Bob okay, let's hear it. If you answer without Ian's help you get two wins. If you answer and if you lose, you just get one loss. And if you answer with Ian's help you get one win. If you're correct. But two losses, if you guys are wrong because there's two of you, ooh, the pressure is on. I was gonna say, if Ian gets this wrong. I feel like I should just incur nine losses. The man. I mean, you know, and I don't mean to put your shirt on. You wrote the, you wrote the book, man? Come on. All right, Brad, I'll take you up on that. Let's let's hear your two facts in a falsehood. All right? EFax number one, for the Los Angeles.

56:38 River sequence Arnold was in quite a bit of pain because he could not wear a glove while cocking the gun. So his fingers and his We get ripped up in the the mechanism. However, he also would sometimes hit, Edward Furlong in the back of the head with the gun, almost knocking him out at one point, okay? Fact, number two, fax number to Edward. Furlong. And Dan, Cooksey, who played his young friend Tim? They were actually good friends in real life. Having grown up going to school together in Southern California. Hmm. Okay, fax number three, Edward Furlong and Arnold Schwarzenegger got along famously. Well, the young actor had grown up without a father figure and Linda Hamilton joked from time to time that there were some really excruciating moments where she would listen to Arnold.

57:32 Give Furlong advice about women. And she stated that they did so well together because they were quote emotionally the same age and One thing that I've really loved about researching some of the making of This film is how opinionated Linda, Hamilton, is often offset. It's been really refreshing to see how brutally honest. Some of these quotes are one, I think Brad is true, or at least components of it are. True. I feel like, I remember hearing about the getting the head bumped by a gun. Number two is interesting because I was hoping that we'd bring up the character of Tim at some point.

58:13 This Derp. I don't think was in all of the movies that I think he was in. But there is just this like the floodgates opened in the late 80s and early 90s for like red-headed best friend kids. Hmm. I thought this was the kid from big for a minute. I don't think it is Brad. Yeah, you can. He kind of reminds me of the catcher from The Sandlot little bit. Not so, not so freckled, but yeah. Yeah. And so he has a face that I feel like I've seen him in 50 movies, but I have no idea if they knew each other beforehand before I make, My selection Ian, do you know the falsehood just from hearing this through, think I do, but they've been very well phrase by Brad to put a bit of ambiguity.

58:55 And I like you, I think the first one is true because they're he burnt his fingers on the gun and it was difficult to read that whole kind of spinning reel. I think was very difficult. So I think that is true. And so I, so I suspect one of the other Is false. All right, I'm gonna go ahead and just bring in on board here. I feel very good about knowing the number one was a truth, so in which one is your suspected falsehood? Right. I think the middle one is false because Linda Hamilton that such a classic Linda Hamilton quote. I know that the chemistry was great and I was a lot of jokes between Furlong and Schwarzenegger and that's classic shorts - talk to him about women.

59:38 So I would say that the Rings true to me the third one about Linda Hamilton your way she talks, and her attitude. They Rings true about the kind of dies to inset and wonder whether the two actors. The two young actors, probably weren't friends because I imagine that the, the other kid probably was up for the part and just didn't get it. So they brought him in play them mate because he was ready to head to my feeling is the middle. One is untrue. I like it. I think I was leaning towards number two as well. I would be really fascinated to hear if they were actually sworn enemies instead of best friends. All right. Brad we're going to lock in number two, as the falsehood. Bob, you are 100%, correct. That is all it takes is me getting perhaps the world's leading expert on James Cameron, that's to get a victory at this game.

1:00:29 Than I I tried to go pretty vague and and off this you know the sidelines stay away from James Cameron himself a little bit but he and you did it man. That was their wealth price that I wasn't 100%. I was like, hold on. Maybe it's the way you're saying it. That's the thing. I've learned the falsehood just has to sound like it could be true and it throws Bob into conniptions about where it might ask where the truth actually lies. All right, let's get back into talking about this movie Brad. I'm once again this is your first time seeing it so I want you to kind of direct our conversation on the back half here. What haven't we talked about yet that you really want to make sure we touch on. I think two things I think that I want to talk About the theory we touched on it, very briefly, but it feels like he kind of starts and ends the movie with these fiery pictures of the death of childhood.

1:01:27 Hmm. Like for me it was incredibly impactful the way he filmed a children's playground wreathed in Flames. Hmm. So I think that's a really fascinating bit of subject, matter more along, the Thematic, lines of what Cameron's trying to do here, but I think the other Thing we have to talk about is the idea of a machine made out of liquid metal is terrifying and I don't know if there's many things more horrifying than it that have ever been created. I mean, you look at the character of agent Smith, you know, or the agents in general in the Matrix movies and you're like oh yeah that's completely a logical conclusion of of the T1000 like oh yeah that would be the upgraded version of the T1000 so like It's a hugely influential idea that the CGI here is just incredible for its time, especially for sure.

1:02:21 Yeah, let's talk a little bit about your first thing though, but I really love that as a thematic element here. The death of childhood, you know, Cameron is kind of consumed with apocalyptic imagery in The Terminator films, even the the Genesis of the Terminator idea. Very famously came to Cameron when he was really ill while over in Italy filming his first film. And he had this fever dream of a metal skeleton emerging from fire, terrified him so much that he went and wrote The Terminator out of it. And I really do think Brad that, that imagery is so key to understanding so much about this movie and not just the death of childhood, but the way that in particular, John Connors childhood has been stolen from him by the, you know, the looming Specter of what's going to happen. And also by the fact that, you know, he did, he's never had a father figure in his life that his Is now in an asylum. It's really, really great metaphorical imagery and we'll get into this in a little bit, but I think sometimes Cameron the writer doesn't trust Cameron the like the visual filmmaker enough and he's doing so much visually that clearly communicates his points.

1:03:34 And I think that that opening credit sequence and that, you know, the few times, they return to that. It gets the point across better than his dialogue does. Yeah, I mean, I was going to say, I think that At that furlongs delivery a lot of the lines about his mom, especially at the start of the film, I think are really incredible. I think that the way he sets up Danny Cooke, see our aforementioned Tim, I think the way that he sets him up by being like, yeah, my mom taught me how to steal this money and his friends, like, oh, that's pretty dope. And he goes. No, she sucks. Like and later in the movie, he talks to Arnold about it. I think. And he says Like, I used to think that, this is how all kids grew up, and then I realized my mom was insane. And now I'm starting to think that she's not so crazy after all.

1:04:23 Like, the, the way Cameron writes, those things in, it gives you an idea of the the depths of Sarah Connor as a character and the struggle that she has the nightmares that she has about a motherhood that she has missed out on. I just think he does a really great job of weaving that throughout the entire film. Umm, well in terms of the thematics here, right? Like this is probably I would argue the most Spielberg Ian of Cameron's movies that we've watched. Like it goes so deep into the Dynamics of a broken family and childhoods that are affected by Broken families. But Brad, you're absolutely right. And Cameron wants to make the theme of this movie in so many ways that it is a metaphor for the way that you grow up into understanding your own parents, I think. And like you just traced it with that line of dialogue that you grow up as a child thinking of this time everybody lives and my parents are flawless people.

1:05:22 And I take everything they say at face value. You go through that, phase, that rebellious adolescent phase, where you think, your parents are insane and everything they say is wrong. And then, you come out the other side and you get a much more nuanced portrait of who your parents are. And the fact that they are not perfect people, they're flawed individuals, but maybe they're not as crazy as you thought they were, and I just love that. He constructs this huge, apocalyptic Fable around, such a small, little emotional narrative. Yeah, it's really nice. I mean, you're saying it's a Well, Cameron does he does the huge, the apocalyptic but ties it into intimate ideas, so we only ever see the the idea of the Judgment Day through Sarah Connors vision of a playground for going up and conflagration and credible.

1:06:13 Nuclear explosion sequence and is right there. Across Cameron's films is idea that Adulthood is not to be trusted adult, who's got it wrong? Adulthood is created Skynet. A adulthood is these Weyland-Yutani in Aliens. When we come to Newton aliens, you know, she knows if she was always told there were no monsters, but that's not true. She knows she's been lied to and had intercepted survive on her own. Edward furlongs characters had kind of to survive on his own to get a Zone Street smarts. So this is idea that Adulthood is not not to be trusted, it's sort of there in the Avatar film. Certainly the sequel as well.

1:06:55 That you what's going on above them and it's that kind of marriage of the big stuff. The apocalyptic stuff with these kind of metaphors for ruin childhoods. For lost worlds of Innocence Lost. Innocence is almost one of the abiding themes in Cameron's work. Sarah Connor loses her innocence in the Terminator. There's no Innocents virtually in aliens or in a sense. The the It's like children going in and they lose their innocence. So it's really think what you're saying about imagery of childhood and imagery of their childhood ruined. And yeah, it is a great subject of Cameron's films. Often is the nuclear family. In every sense, it's a nuclear family of the unit and he Applause the unit and wants to rebuild the unit. But at the same time, it's a nuclear family because they're going to go up in Flames, unless something is done about it. Yeah.

1:07:49 Yeah, I think another interesting analogy to aliens that I hadn't really thought about before was how Paul Reiser in Aliens represents kind of what you said of adulthood ruins everything and, you know, their greed and their desire for power. I think it's interesting that he once again, subverts that Trope that, you know, he established in Aliens, not necessarily in Terminator, but with the character of Miles Dyson, played by Joe Morton like you. Somebody who yes he is. Searching after power. He is curious, he is innovative all these things and yet when faced with the destruction of mankind, he changes his tune and and he, you know, becomes a heroic figure in the end.

1:08:35 And so I think, even that is an interesting example of how Cameron continues to subvert, these ideas and T2 that he has set up in multiples of his previous movies. Yeah, everything's inversion in t to it. It's invertible but she always other films. It kind of stands alone in some ways within the Cameron Cannon. But of course there's the kind of the the one of the major themes certainly in Terminator 2 and across his work is the classic 50s theme of scientific who buries technology out of control due to Mankind's can avarice and greed and ambition and that's it within itself. You know, the great irony of camera, the most Innovative filmmaker there's ever been Dean always makes films about, you know, the wrongs of technology.

1:09:23 And what I can a devastating power. It can braise avatars all about the Primitive being praised, and the technological, being the enemy and to some extent, that's true of terminated to technology. You know, is a devastating force that the metal man from the future of the nuclear apocalypse. That's coming, you know, Niles Dyson, learns the error of his ways but you know, it's Eddie that far along. It's already kind of heading towards whether the film is going science, is not to be trusted. I want to talk a little bit before we get into Cameron's technological achievements here or I, guess I should just like technical achievements here because there's there's so much practical effects going on as well.

1:10:09 I want to talk about my big gripe with Cameron and it's been my big gripe with Cameron throughout the four weeks that we've talked about this. And it's the major gripe that everyone has with them. And it's Cameron is a dialogue writer. and Bradley there's been a few filmmakers on the show over the years that I've said this about and it's that Cameron the writer and specifically, the dialogue writer often seems at odds with Cameron, the visual filmmaker and it seems sometimes like for as clear and concisely as he can frame something visually and get his point across and as much as he understands the audience's expectations and what they need in that moment, it just seems like he wants to add a couple lines of VoiceOver or dialogue to really drive that point home when it's not necessary. And I think the biggest the most egregious one for me in this film is the very final line of the film where Sarah Connor is narrating over the The images of them driving down the highway and she's basically saying, like, well, I wonder if Humanity can learn our lesson this time.

1:11:15 It's like, yeah, we got that Linda Hamilton, you don't need to move, you didn't need to make that statement, especially because there are so many great little moments earlier in the film. Like, with Arnold when he is having that conversation with Edward Furlong as they're watching. Children play again and Edward Furlong asks him, hey we're not going to make it. Are we like humans we're not going to we're not going. Get an Arnold says, it's in your nature to destroy yourselves and that's all he has to say and even throughout the film, and after they've finally accomplished what they need to accomplish there is still that lingering question of is it in our nature to destroy ourselves and if this you know this metal robot essentially can learn to make a sacrifice and display.

1:11:59 What Humanity can truly be for us? Will we allow ourselves to take that lesson? And it's all right there and I don't feel like he needs to A spoon feeding us that exact line, 10 seconds later to end the film. Maybe it's just me, but I think if there is one overarching flaw with the film, it's that Cameron. The writer sometimes doesn't trust either the audience or himself as a visual filmmaker and feels like he needs to go one step further. I'm going to let Ian answer that question before I give my very deep thoughts on this. I think you're, I think you're right in some respects. He's often criticized for corny nature of his dialogue. The old business, he's not a subtle Storyteller, shall we? Say I can cause you're a very subtle imagist, and I think he became very subtle with how he puts things together. But in terms of his storytelling, I think they are fairy tales.

1:12:54 And often fairy tales are told in her. Right blunt way an obvious way. I mean, what you can't deny is, how popular is, so clearly he does, communicate to large audiences. And, and I think his films are very kind of ripe, in terms of sort of the kind of characters and the emotions that are portrayed. We don't have to go looking for how people feel in these films. We get it. We're told it. Yeah, it comes. And goes, I think some of his dialogue can be great. I go back to aliens and I think some of the, the dialogue is really memorable and it works in the context of the film. I think often what how Cameron functions is a director, is that the tempo of the film's is so strong and momentum and the tension that in some ways the dialogue is going to compete against that.

1:13:49 So it has to be very broad just to sort of be heard amidst, the kind of chaos and that can sometimes Lead them down a path of being a bit too blunt. Yeah, I really take your point, I think. Yeah, he sometimes, his, he doesn't learn the error of his ways, but then he'll go. Why do I need to? Because it has these films are communicating very quickly and clearly it's a, it's a balancing act. I think I didn't see it. What do you guys think about the voiceover in this? Like, that's a pretty big departure from the first film and to have her, not just narrate the opening of this film. But you know, there's three Four times throughout the movie, where she's narrating, do you guys feel like that worked here? I, you know, obviously the final line wasn't a big hit for Bob but that overall.

1:14:35 What effects do you think that had on the film? I think it was a there was a sort of functional element to it in that. He also Cameron also have to cater for the fact that not everybody will have seen the Terminator because the Terminator is, as you said, was a horror movie, it's a slasher movie, it was an adult movie, and this obviously was a broad-based blockbuster, they want you to get kids in So they have to communicate a lot of information ahead of time so there's a real functional element. Also the ending is interesting because Cameron has shot that different ending its on this special edition. I think where we see the world, tied it up and the old Sarah Connor, looking at the playground at the very last minute. I mean, literally the 11th Hour of post-production that he had a huge argument with coral, Co the production company, who wanted the more ambiguous ending and he lost that argument and they put the the road end NG in so opportunity for sequels, were still in there. So I think there's a little bit of sort of putting something into kind of fix the ending very quickly that may have made the final speeches a little bit obvious. Yeah it's a good point I think you know if you want to assume that Cameron did this intentionally and I'm sure he did but there is a voiceover at the end of the first film. It's Sarah narrating and her sort of tape that she's recording to John.

1:15:52 Who is still? She's pregnant at the time. Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's true. I forgot about that. And I think it's interesting that he does carry that over into this film and you're right, and I think it's probably more functional than anything else. But it's really interesting that in this film, she's not talking to John, she's talking to humanity. Like she, you know, she Is portrayed as the mother of John in the first film in a lot of ways she's being portrayed as the mother of humanity or, you know, Humanity's hope in the second film. And so, her comments are much more Broad and they're directed toward the human race in general. I really like that Cameron did kind of expand on that idea and who she's communicating to I think once again like you know I could take her leave some of what she says, I love the scene where Arnold and Edward Furlong or bonding at that sort of like, you know, Underground militaristic site and then she goes, you know, I never realized it until right now but we make a pretty good family and I'm like, okay, Cameron. Come on dude.

1:16:47 Like we get it, go ahead. Yeah. I was just going to say if you wanted to be like super technical about it Bob, which I know you appreciate. Oh yeah, I'll go do the, the voiceover in the first film. Was a dietetic voiceover, whereas in the second film lose non-diet. So true The definitely a very different, different take well. So I bring up the whole idea of my main drawback on Cameron because now I want to move into Cameron's, I mean like lasting shining Legacy, which is him as brilliant, technical filmmaker, and Brad honestly, I don't know if we've looked at a filmmaker this season, who is as good on a technical level, except maybe Spielberg, that guy's a genius at where to place the camera and how to move the Camera and Cameron directs his action scenes.

1:17:42 I think I said earlier the word that I liked to use was concise. We've said direct as well as really like No-Frills about it. It's not super convoluted. You get a good sense of the geography, but he just seems to have really good coverage, you know? I think about the scene where cyberdyne blows up and the way that they're filming it from helicopters over there, filming it from on the ground. He knows, hey, I've got one shot to blow up a building. I need to get good coverage and he doesn't really good job. That kind of stuff. This, you know, this movie is known for introducing elements of CGI that just really didn't exist before. He had toyed around with this, and kind of used his prior film, The Abyss, as proof of concept for what he could do with the T1000.

1:18:26 But I think Brad like with Jurassic Park this movie shine so much because it uses the CGI sparingly and it does it you know in 1991 it did it because of budgetary constraints and just The fact that they couldn't really turn this out at the rate that they could today, but it also meant that Cameron had to go back to his roots and complement the use of the CGI with these outstanding practical effects. I think I read today that Cameron estimated that only forty two shots in the movie used CGI. Whereas today, I mean that would be, they would be, you know, two thousand or more in this film. Everything would have been CGI, but there is such a like, I don't know.

1:19:08 There's a tangible. Of nature to so much of this film. And I love that the constraints of the technology meant that it was used better and that everything supported it so that you really did have those wow moments. Yeah, it's been fascinating for me. I've been getting into anime a little bit more recently with a good friend of mine and we've been watching this show called Attack on Titan and something. He's pointed out to me. Is that within the world of anime, it's obviously mostly hand-drawn, but they do, Use CGI from time to time because it's just so much cheaper than hand drawing every single scene. And the thing that he has pointed out to me that has like completely changed the way I look at CGI is that it's just too smooth that that when you use CGI for everything for for the city around you, for all the background cared for all the stuff, it's the human soul can just tell That it's too smooth. It's too perfect, it's not broken up enough. And I honestly makes me think about the Matrix when they, you know, they talk about the first version of Matrix was too perfect and humans couldn't handle it. They needed a little bit of imperfection and I think that's kind of how I feel about my movies. Like, I need the raw feel of actual helicopters being flown through the sky of buildings actually exploding. It just comes across so much.

1:20:39 Better. And when you use CGI as you said, sparingly I think you get masterpieces like this. Alright, so sorry. Yeah. The direction needs to test himself, you know, one of the artboard downsize, however you want to, you know, maintain it it about. The Avatar films is essentially cameras, got free rein to take as much time as you want to spend as much money, as you want to push computer technology to fulfill everything he could possibly want from them and what is not happening, is he Been tested against the world. So how do I put this stunt together on a freeway? How do I mount this Chase? Because there are limitations called gravity and physics that I'm going to be up against.

1:21:20 I can do nothing and I adore that cuz I think it brings the best out of camera. And as you saying, there's a tangibility to those things and they're included in the way the T1000 is depicted, as you say, there is a limit to the amount of CGI shots they could do mostly because of processing power. It took them The nine months of production to create the same amount of the for the CGI in the film, as the whole of the rest of the film. So it took that long to process the shots. So Stan Winston had to step up and do a lot of what we think of as CGI when we look at it. But actually is practical effects. You can impress or head exploding head of the T1000, the kind of blooming roses of silver when he's shot with bullets. That's all Stan.

1:22:03 Winston and the genius is how Cameron edits the CGI into the film. And so these limitations, I think bring the best out of camera that he's at war with the world to create his film. And I love, you know, this stunt work in 92, you know, they're the kind of tow truck coming off the bridge into the storm drain and the stress wave going back through it. That's almost like a metaphor for the whole film. It's like a stress wave through metal and the incredible highway chase and which there is CGI elements. But you know there's a guy Is this stunt helicopter pilot flying a chopper underneath the bridge, which had never been done.

1:22:45 And they had to sort of, damp down all the dust. And the, it was really risky shot. Totally against Aviation rules. And they should they flew a helicopter underneath the bridge? And that's the James Cameron? I love. I think I was reading today about one scene that I did not think was a stunt or that I didn't think was done practically and it is the scene where, Jeanette Goldstein, who plays John? Connor, stepmom. Has been taken over by the T1000 and, and kills his stepdad. And you see that her arm has become a sword, and that it has gone straight through his mouth and that it's impaling, him up against the Cabinetry, and all of that was done practically. They had designed a prosthetic for her to insert her arm into that Blended gradually down into a sword.

1:23:29 And the guy that played John Connors, like foster, dad had done weeks and weeks of sword-swallowing training so that they could literally stick this thing into his mouth. I have a thing coming out the back of his head that looked like he was impaled and it's just incredible to think about the level of detail that went into a shot like that but again, there's such a tangibility to it that it doesn't feel like it's made in a computer and I think that's you know Brad. I also just wanted to talk about Jeanette Goldstein for a minute so that's why I brought that one up. Yeah I was gonna say at what point do you think the the sword swallowing actor was training for? RIT at, he just had the thought. I am not getting paid enough for this Brad. Did you recognized Ginette Goldstein from any of the other Cameron films that we've done?

1:24:22 I did not at all Cameron uses her very well. So, we saw her just a couple weeks ago in Aliens as private Vasquez. Oh, okay. Yeah, she was incredible as Vasquez. She is also responsible for continually just Chattering me emotionally in Titanic. She is, she is the mother of the Irish twins that tucks, her kids into bed as the ship is flooding and tells them the story about the land of Tiernan, odd, or whatever it is. Yeah, Brad. I like I will never forgive that woman for what she's done to me emotionally. But but yeah, Cameron seems to be returning to her pretty continually in some of these films that we've watched. So I wanted to give her a quick shout-out. Yeah, add girl that was yeah, she really does an incredible job.

1:25:09 Job in this, I will say I love the end. There's a lot of different movies that kind of do this in different ways, but I love the Freaky Friday acting challenge of like not only does Robert Patrick have to learn how to play like a robot and Arnold but also, you know, these other characters that they turn into have to act out what it would be like to be a robot in addition to their own role. And so I just I think that that's really fun to think about Out from a active. Technical acting standpoint of like this role doesn't just include playing a stepmom. It's also plays a killer robot, that's very true.

1:25:50 All right, guys, we're winding down here for the day before we let you in. Do a very important couple plugs here because I really want everybody to buy this book. We're going to do our last couple segments, the first of which we call. Let's make it a double. This is where we pair up our movie of the day with another film to make our perfect double feature. Brad since I am already rambling on. I'm gonna go ahead and go first Cameron mentioned, this film in one of the interviews that I watched as background for this episode and he talked about the Iron Giant and I love the Iron Giant. And that's going to be my pick for today. And he said that, you know, his goal was to make people weep at the sight of a terminator and to weep tears of emotion and not, you know, fear and I think that's exactly what you get in a movie like The Iron Giant which in a lot of ways, borrowed heavily from T2, but the idea of Large lovable played kind of buffoonish super intelligent.

1:26:44 Robot that actually makes self-sacrifice for the human race. There's, you know, there's obviously a nuclear sub plot and everything else there. So I think the Iron Giant lines up pretty perfectly with Terminator 2. That's my pick who won. Yeah that is a good one. Bob for me I think I'm going to make this a double with a Tom Cruise, Steven Spielberg collaboration. I think I'm going to pair this up with Minority Report. Oh nice. I didn't know if you were gonna go were the world's or Minority Report? No, I think Minority Report makes the most sense for me just with the idea of Tom, you know, protecting this young girl and trying to to seek out the truth and go on and, you know, an action-adventure, I think that they would pair really well together for a really entertaining night of sci-fi action movies.

1:27:33 You may have just set the record for number of Tom Cruise references in one of our episodes. It has nothing to do with ties to do Tom Cruise, you're welcome, man. Alrighty. And what do you think? Okay, well my choice is Mad. Max Fury Road. Oh, I love it. Okay, and it's gonna be a hell of a night, which needs two films together. One of the reasons is that both T 2 and Max Fury Road. A kind of based on chain and there about the mythical figure coming out of the desert helping to save the day, and then he's appearing back into the desert, the boy leaps, and that's kind of turn. Donated to your arrives and he goes and then of course it's kind of Fury Road as well. These Max comes at the beginning. He has no background, he's dressed in leather. It doesn't talk a lot.

1:28:20 You kind of helps to helps the kind of furiosa, and then the future, and the rig, get there and back again. And of course, there are two films that are just wonders of physical stunts work and you know, visceral filmmaking put together and they're both kind of dystopian and you know, they're both. Of great monuments to excitement on the cinema screen. I love that. Honestly, you could pair Mad Max Fury Road in even the most tenuous way with any movie that we do and I'd be like, yeah, it totally works Brief Encounter. I was just gonna say we did brief encounter a couple weeks ago and I'm like, yeah, throw it in there. It's David lean ask. Sure that's deserts. Involve.

1:29:02 Come on. You know. All right guys, it is time for us to score this. She and I'm sure this might be antithetical to your entire Mission as a Cameron chronicler but we give a movie a score out of 10 we can give half points. No Quarter points Brad, what would you give Terminator 2 on a scale of 1 to 10? Man? I think that Cameron took everything he did in Terminator which which I, you know, I gave it a 7 & a half. I thought it was solid but not great and just improved on it. Incredibly, I think, At the acting is loads better in T2. I think that the the the technical aspects of the film have come along.

1:29:50 So so far from 1984. And, you know into 1991 that for me in 2022 watching this movie, I did not have a single moment of this film where I was like, oh that hasn't aged well, you know, and so I man, this is truly one of the greatest action movies of all. Time. I think I will give it a nine and a half Bob, I'm with you 9.5 and I don't even know if my gripes with the few moments of VoiceOver and dialogue or enough to lower it, a full Half Point from a 10, I think. Honestly the thing that's keeping me from giving it a 10 is that I also gave aliens of 9.5 and I cannot definitively say if this or aliens is the better film and this out of fairness to alien I'm going to give this one a nine point five as well.

1:30:42 Wow, this is tough. This is tough. I might go eight and a half. I agree with you guys in so much. I think aliens is probably the better movie is the one I can. I return to more and the range of characters and the emotional journey of aliens is incredible and Aliens already already existed and in terminate already existed. So in some senses Terminator didn't have to set up a world. Only had to capitalize on one. Sure, but I'm nitpicking because it's a Attic movie. And it's a fantastic sort of emblem of what can be done with the sequel of how you don't just repeat it, you can invert it and play with it and a tyranny. But still had all the Thrills that were there to begin with and that's Cameron's.

1:31:25 Great talent is to understand that. So, just fantastic. I give it eight and a half but, you know, probably, you know, there's a nine and a half inside my soul as well. All right. Well, there you have it 9. Half from Brad, and from myself in Nathan, has given an 8.5 out of 10 in also has written the book on James Cameron, quite literally. We've alluded to it a couple times now. But Ian tell us a little bit more about the book itself and where we can find it. Yeah it's called James Cameron a retrospective it tells the story of his journey through films from his childhood in Canada right through his days at Roger Corman which was very Hands-On filmmaking.

1:32:08 Which is still carrying on right through to Avatar the way of water and, you know, as I alluded to earlier on, every film cameras made has been an epic in in in terms of its production. But battle and astonishing kind of story of, of willpower. I mean the, the story of the Abyss alone, you know, could fill a book, The Abyss is just an incredible kind of filmmaking, struggle and happen. So it's just a remarkable tale and it was thrilled to write and thrilled to through. On that journey through his films. Obviously, I timed it to tie in with the Avatar Sequel and your Publishers, do like a hook for their books, but just been a great thing to write and I hope people read it. They get some of what we've been talking about, you know, on this podcast, you know, the kind of passion the Thematic work, the emotional work and his gifts as a Storyteller. I think that's the subtext of what I've done is just retrace. Say that he is one of our great storytellers because his films are so compelling.

1:33:14 It's available from all book, shops, online, and offline. And, you know, if you want to know about the guy and departing is what he does, and what he achieves, then then it's a great read these books that even makes are just incredible. I mean we did the West Anderson miniseries earlier in the season. I rely too heavily on that Wes Anderson book. And what I love about them is that they Are presented so beautifully as well. It's, I mean, it's a coffee table book in the way that it looks, but is just so full of valuable insights, and just rich rich quotes and I cannot speak highly enough of these books. That Ian is producing. Yeah, I was going to say I just got the Criterion Collection version of Grand Budapest.

1:33:59 And like the the look and feel of the Criterion Collection version of that film feels similar to the the presentation. Of your book on Wes Anderson. So, like I yeah, whoever you've got working for you doing doing. Your design is spot-on. I will let them know. I went with them a lot. So yeah. Let them know that you appreciate it. All right. Before we let you go in, I'm going to put you on the spot one more time. There's also been another major announcement from your end of the woods in the last few weeks. And that is some updates on a film that you were working on. Oh yeah. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Yeah I'm making a documentary about something very close. We'll be talking to you this evening, and that's aliens. And in fact, one of the reasons I didn't pick aliens as our conversation point was that I'm kind of heavily involved with elsewhere and it wants to talk about something else. It was kind of an opportunity that came up through the books and it's a company that's does sort of crowd Source documentaries.

1:34:59 So you know, fans invest and we get a budget and we go away and make these documentaries. They've made a terrific series of documents called In Search Of Darkness. Suddenly you seen them draal about 80s and 90s horror, and we wanted to do one specifically about a film. That has really passionate fan base, really devoted, fanbase and Aliens just you know, fitted the bill, the fan base is astonishing and a very devoted to it. And I'm going on a journey interviewing cast and crew, interviewing fans, interviewing scientists and Military historians and critics to try and Stand not how the film was made, but why people love it so much little bit?

1:35:43 Like, what we've been talking about this evening, in a way to try and get to the kind of the kernel of what it is about these films that work so well and we've only just begun I have I've spoken to the net Goldstein who was just fabulous to say she was really great and memories were great and so I'm really enjoying it. It's a tall order, it's a challenge because aliens is beloved. Sure. And a lot of people know a lot about It. So I've got to sort of a long way to go, but it's a great experience. That's incredible. All right, well, this has been Ian, Nathan. I'm going to be utilizing your work again, in our next miniseries because as this is the last James Cameron film for the season, we are pivoting to the Coen Brothers. It was hard for us to narrow down to just a three-week miniseries.

1:36:29 And so, we're going to focus on comedies of the Coen Brothers. I think most of them could be considered comedies, but we're going with more of the broad comedies. So next week, we're kicking things off with, oh, O Brother, Where Art Thou? We're going to be looking at Raising Arizona and then we're finishing it off with the Big Lebowski and your Coen Brothers, book is literally sitting on the desk next. To me, can't wait to dive into that. And Brad, I cannot wait to introduce you to Raising Arizona which I think might be a perfect film. Yeah, I am incredibly excited for it and I know I've said this before, but out of all of the, I think at this point, two to 300 films, we've reviewed on this podcast, one of the ones that sticks in my brain, the most is Fargo. Yeah.

1:37:11 That movie just yeah, I am really excited to jump into the Coen Brothers these next few weeks. All right, everybody, we will see you next Monday as we kick off the Coen brothers, with O Brother, Where Art Thou. But until then, I'm Bob book. I'm Reggie and we'll see you next time.