Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi / Jim Beam Single Barrel Bourbon

0:00 In 2017, director Rian Johnson and star Mark Hamill gave the role a supposedly beautiful slap in the face to every Star Wars fan in the Galaxy. I'd like to give you a supposedly beautiful slap in the face sometimes, man. IN2000I I. Control my part of the writing for the show you. You take control of yours. Now that I know that I could threaten violence, I definitely will. In 2024, we continue our trip through one of America's favorite budget bourbon brands. The film is Star Wars episode 8 The Last Jedi. The whiskey is Jim Beam Single Barrel.

0:41 And we'll review them both. This is. The Film and Whiskey podcast Welcome to the Film and Whiskey podcast, where each week we review a classic movie and a glass of whiskey. I'm Bob Book. I'm Brad G. And Brad, it is the moment that you and I and Film and Whiskey Nation have all been waiting for. I was telling you right before we pressed record, I have literally been circling this film on the Film and Whiskey docket for five years.

1:30 Man, I've got a whole playlist of videos on YouTube to help me try to break down my position on this movie because I, I don't know if it's true, but in my mind, Brad, this is one of the films that launched the Film and Whiskey podcast. Like I feel like we had started talking about this movie and our differences upon it and and then that spun off into let's do a podcast. And you thought to yourself, man this is the perfect Co host for my show. You know what, maybe you're right, maybe this wasn't something we discussed, 'cause that doesn't sound like something I would do is, hey, let's, let's debate like this for five years. Here's my question for you, Bob.

2:11 According to all the things you've known about me over the years, how much preparation do you think I did for this episode? So here, well, let me answer your question with a riveting story, Brad. I am old and out of shape and beaten down by life. Now. I am not this rightly young man I was five years ago. Sure. And so, you know, in doing prep for this episode, I gotta be honest with you, man, I don't have the energy for arguing with you that I used to. I just can't do it as much. So I might just tap out after like 15 minutes. Sure. All that to say, I have been going through like a tremendous amount of anxiety over this episode because I don't know which Brad G is going to show up to this episode. Oh, how many Brad G's are there?

3:01 Way too many, man. You are a wild card, my friend. And I don't know what your what energy you're going to bring. Sometimes I don't know if it's going to be the snarky smart ass. I didn't do any research and I'm just here to cause anarchy, Brad G And so sometimes I bank on that and I know that I can just easily trump you with facts. But then sometimes. Like, like Ben Shapiro, Yeah. Facts and lots. I don't care about your feelings, Brad, but then sometimes you hate a movie so much that you too want to get one over on me via facts and figures. And so it's possible that you've done a tremendous amount of research.

3:41 And I had this moment today where I was like, I have to refresh myself on all of my talking points because Brad might come into this one hot and ready to go. So all that to say, dude, I have no idea how much research or prep you did for this movie and I'm a little bit nervous because when you do, when you do research, you are a worthy adversary. I have 22 pages of types notes. Do you really? 100%. Like what? What size font? 12 OK single spaced, double spaced EBEB. Garamond, I think it's 1.15, so you know, not quite single spaced. It is bullet pointed.

4:23 So, you know, you kind of lose a, there's a little extra empty space here and there. Just a quick aside as we dive into before we start the bloodbath here, Brad. Yeah. My stupid Windows updated and it looks like Microsoft Word now has a new default font called Aptos. What Edit sucks dude. Like it's a cool looking font but in terms of legibility I had to like magnify the page. Yeah, if I keep it at 11 point font, it's awful. It's it's another example of how some people think that they can drag people into the future without their consent. And.

5:05 When they do a poor job of it, it isn't received well. Seems like this is a perfect segue into talking about The Last Jedi. Oh, nailed it. OK, so Brad, we know you don't like this movie. We, I think people understand that I do like this movie. I haven't really revealed how much yet, but spoiler alert, it's a whole heck of a lot. I like this movie a lot, but I want to set the stage here a little bit. You are the guy who has regaled us with stories about skipping school to go see Star Wars, how it is the most impactful media IP on your life ever. And so I have to imagine this film being a disappointment to you was a very crushing blow.

5:46 But can you give us the story of how you came to 1st encounter The Last Jedi? Yeah, so it was while we were living in Kentucky, attending seminary, and I went, this is probably one of the biggest groups of people I've ever gone with to see a film. There was, there's a variety of people in the group. There were lifelong Star Wars fans. There were people there who had maybe seen one or two of the Star Wars movies. And they were just going, 'cause there was a group like, like we truly ran the gambit of, of levels of Star Wars knowledge, right? I, I walked out of that film with my friend Melody, my friends Melody and Thomas Hickey. Who do you you actually know Bob? And we literally almost cried together. We were so angry about this movie like that. There were so many moments in this film. There's only a few movies that I've like laughed out loud at for how ridiculous they were.

6:54 And this one almost was. But I, every time I almost laughed at something, I would realize how just cruel the decisions were from a directorial standpoint and it would just make me angry. And so, you know, compared to something like Rise of Skywalker, which I, I, I think is just purely a bad film, like, like it's just poorly made, but it's not intentionally harmful. Like, like truly like when you look at some of the stuff that's come out about JJ and what's his, what's the guy's name who wrote Argo that? Chris Torrio. Is that it?

7:36 Or therio, yeah, he, he helped right Rise the skyward. When you watch the stuff about them, they literally just seem like bumbling fools. And so I kind of like, I'm like, yeah, you've ruined the franchise in some ways. But the the franchise was already ruined by The Last Jedi. So I think that's why weirdly, I I have less hatred for Rise of Skywalker and I'm just more amused by it and I'll never watch it again. The Last Jedi I have some real animosity towards. And it started it. It started from the very first time I saw it. OK, so let, let let me, Frank, hold on. Hold on. Oh. No, no, no. Give me one more thing, OK? I've seen it three Times Now. I watched it in theaters.

8:19 I watched it about two, probably about two years later when I was living in Saint Louis with my just me and my wife. And Haley's final verdict on the movie was that was way too long and it didn't resemble a Star Wars movie. And I said yes. And now I've watched it a third time, about almost, I don't know, 7-8 years later. Yeah. OK, So first of all, I will give you your credit. You have done your due diligence. You have given this movie a fair shake. You don't like it, that's fine. You know what I mean? That's fine. I do love that in my my question was tell me about seeing it for the first time and you spent like 20% on the seeing of it and 80% editorializing about the maliciousness of Rian Johnson.

9:08 But I think it gets to a good point. And it's something that I guess is one of my, like, I don't want to say theories about Star Wars fans, but the thing that I think drives the hatred for this movie and you kind of hinted at it, is that Rise of Skywalker is just a poorly made film. There is just very little skill behind that. It is thrown together. It seems like they were trying to cobble together some semblance of a Star Wars movie from what they perceived to be the wreckage of Rian Johnson. And I understand that, but they scrambled too hard. And it sounds like I in a weird way, it's almost like a credit to Rian Johnson because people think that he is maliciously tearing down Star Wars. And I think in acknowledging that, you're kind of also acknowledging that it is at least competently made, that you can see the intent behind it, even if you interpret that intent as malicious.

10:05 I think we're definitely talking about two different types of movie here, between The Last Jedi and Rise of Skywalker, where one is completely inept and then this one is competently made but possibly evil in its intentions. Is that fair to say? No, I wouldn't say it's fair to say, Bob. You don't think this is competently made either? No, I don't. Oh, interesting. I I. Think that the script is horrendously bad like. True. Come on. OK, let's. The hot takes are just just dripping off of your tongue right now.

10:46 Let's just press pause for a second. Let's throw over to our first segment of the day, which we call, Brad explains. Brad's going to give us the movie plots with only 60 seconds ticking on the clock, so let's go ahead and hear your take with this little segment that we call, Brad explains. Brad Explains is the part of the podcast where Brad breaks down the plot of the movie that he has just seen. Now for the third time Brad I I know that we will get very little plot and a whole lot of your opinion of the plot. You're gonna get, you're gonna get all the plot, all right. You're gonna get all all the plot, Bob, all the plotting that you want. You have 60 seconds to break down the plot of The Last Jedi now folks, if you have not seen The Last Jedi, man, welcome into the debate. You should go see the movie for yourself, decide what you think of it, and then come back and engage with whatever the hell we're about to say.

11:38 But Brad is going to spoil this whole movie. So 60 seconds on the clock, Brad and go. Star Wars Episode 8 The Last Jedi is a film that follows the 1st Order as it tries to finish off the Resistance. As they're escaping from a base, they engage in a battle where hero Poe Dameron takes out a dreadnought, is reprimanded and demoted for refusing to follow orders. Ray, meanwhile, tries to convince Luke to help the Resistance. However, he is quite grumpy and dismissive of her desire to learn about the Force and have him help the Resistance. Back to the Resistance.

12:21 The Resistance jumps into hyperspace. They're caught by the 1st Order because they have a new tracking technology that tracks ships through hyperspace. In order to escape this tracking technology, they try to go to a casino planet, find a master code breaker, try to sneak onto the 1st Order ship and disable the tracking beacon. However, they get betrayed by the Code Breaker, and he lets them know that they're actually trying to abandon the main ship onto a small planet nearby named Crate. On this planet of Crate, a small minority of the Resistance makes it to the planet, sets up a defense, tries to defend against the 1st Order, is unable to, but Luke steps in, projects himself from across the Galaxy and has a conversation with Kylo Ren.

13:06 Disappears and then dies, but he allows the Resistance the Resistance to find time to escape. The end. Brad, I'll let you go for a minute and a half on that one because that was a really good summary of the film. And did anyone interrupt this? You know, you, you can do the task without editorializing. Let it be known. I, I will, I will say that up front, I think where I would like to start, Brad, and I know that I can't stop you from trashing this film. So let's lean into it a little bit and let's let you speak your piece. What I want to separate is your expectations of a Star Wars movie and how this falls short as a Star Wars movie. And then on the flip side, how you think this falls short as a competently made film?

13:59 But I think we should start with the Star Wars expectations. We are in our third week of Star Wars movies here. We did The Force Awakens and Rogue One. Now we've watched The Last Jedi and this is now what Brad, the 9th Star Wars film that we've done on the podcast. The only remaining ones would be Rise of Skywalker and Solo. And I can say confidently those will not be reviewed on this podcast anytime soon. I would do a Rise of Skywalker trash film. Review, sure, maybe as a Patreon says, yeah, we'll be really drunk and just yeah, that'd be fun. So you have high expectations for and, and not even beyond expectations.

14:40 You have a good understanding of what makes a Star Wars movie a Star Wars movie. I think it's going to be completely different from what I think makes a Star Wars movie and what makes a good Star Wars movie. But you're also a massive Star Wars super fan. You've read books, you have been inundated in the culture of Star Wars. So how does The Last Jedi fall short in that regard? I think I've been thinking about this a lot. I think that if you really boil everything about Star Wars down to its basic core, what you have are really interesting characters who face very difficult challenges, are forced to change and adapt and grow and fail and, and do all of the things.

15:31 And because of their relationships with one another, because of the growth that they experience as a result of failure most of the time, throughout all the films, they become something better than they could have been alone. They they move beyond the Tatooine deserts and into a horizon that they've always been dreaming of, right? Like that, that is the core of the Star Wars films that that people, when given the right environment, when given the right people around them, when given the right challenge to rise up to meet that they are going to become something great.

16:14 And I, I think that that kind of hits the core of Star Wars across the board, whether it's in the books, whether it's the video games, whether it's the movies. And I'll, I'll fully say like, let's, let's throw out the books throughout the video games. Like this originally was a film series. We can talk about it as a film series. I I don't think you need or should have to play the video games. Read the books to understand that core point about Star Wars. Is that fair? Absolutely. I mean that, listen, if if we're going to agree on anything, it's that I don't think you need supplemental materials or should rely on supplemental materials to appreciate a movie.

16:56 Yeah, 100% and I I think that but but also my point being interesting character development is at the core of Star Wars. Is that a fair? I could not have said it better myself. No 100% Brad all. Right. Let's let's keep going then We're we're on the same page, Bob. We are, it's, it's real weird how we are arriving at completely opposite ends of the spectrum while maintaining the exact same ethos about what makes a good start 'cause I, you said that. And I'm like, this movie does that perhaps better than any other Star Wars film. So now I'm really interested to hear how it doesn't do that. Yeah, I, I this is where this is where it's gonna get spicy. Bob.

17:44 Here's the thing. Why can't we make strong new characters, which I'm all about, without having to kill off the old characters, literally and figuratively? Metaphorically, like the. The big problem with this movie is that Rian Johnson has an obsession with themes that he thinks are interesting and he has a complete inability to actually engage with the characters where they are at. All of the characters are subject to his themes that he is going to ham fistedly shove down your throat throughout the entire film. OK.

18:34 And can you connect that to how this fails on the front of what makes a good Star Wars movie? Well. Like what are the themes that you think he's ham fistedly forcing down our throats here? And, and how does that undermine the the ideas of sacrifice and the greater good and everything else? Yeah, well, let's let's talk about Finn. OK, so Finn starts this movie and he is kind of a lone survivalist. Like he is primarily interested in trying to get away from this conflict and protect his friend Ray, who he, you know, at the end of the last film, he is crippled.

19:20 He's slashed in the back with a light Saber and he's in a coma at the start of this film because he was trying to protect Rey, right? And he he goes to the escape pod not because he's a coward, but because he's trying to protect Rey from coming back to an unwinnable situation, right? Like coward would just be like, I'm just trying to save my own skin. He's like, no, like I'm I'm trying to save my friend. So that's that's where he starts. And then throughout the movie, he spends the entire film being told about how capitalism is bad and rich people are bad and that good and evil is kind of morally grey. And you know, the, the, the, the good guys, quote UN quote, also buy weapons from the same people that are selling to the bad guys and don't get yourself committed. And it's not a big deal.

20:12 And then he finally commits though, and it doesn't really make sense why he commits it. It doesn't make sense why he. Decides to go on this rescue mission in the 1st place because he literally goes from hey, I'm going to get in this escape pod to save Ray to Nope, I'm 100% in. I have to save this ship and I have to save the resistance. And I'm going to give the tracker that's going to help save Ray to Poe who is still stuck here. And so all of a sudden, his entire motivation to help Ray is like now just kidding, I want to save the resistance now. And then he jumps on a hypership where he could have taken that tracker with him and tossed it off the onto the beach.

20:57 And now Ray goes to a rich fancy planet. Like his whole motivation is gone. And now he loves the resistance and now he hates rich war profiteers, which obviously every single rich person on that planet was a war profiteer. And, and also animal cruelty is bad. And so we need to free these, these animals, but not necessarily the slaves that it's also bad that they have slaves. We don't have to free them. And now we're back on, we're, we're back with the resistance and we're, we're on crate and I have a chance to save everybody. And I finally have submitted myself to the greater 'cause I, I believe in the resistance. I'm not this lone, lone smuggler kind of guy anymore. I I have, I believe in the resistance now and I'm going to die on his behalf to save everyone. And then Rose comes in out of nowhere and blasts him out of the way and says no, no, no, you can't do that. We got to save the things we love. And, and his whole character arc makes zero sense. There's no it it's just about the themes that he's there to represent that, that Rian Johnson doesn't like capitalism. So Finn has to understand that.

22:11 And Rian Johnson doesn't like heroic sacrifices, which we see in Poe's story as well. So we're we're going to have to keep him away from that. We can't let him have a heroic sacrifice. And it's like, it's just example after example. And I I could go through every single character with examples like this but OK so I don't think he want me to. Well, it's not that it's that, it's that you are pulling a Bob book and talking for 5 minutes uninterrupted here. We got to, we got to like get some dialogue going here. So I will say of all of the main characters, I think Finn's arc is the most problematic and it's because of that last small beat where Rose saves him at the end. I've always had a problem with that character beat and Rose's decision there. Because as far as the people who are in those cruisers know, like Luke Skywalker's not hanging out back there like no one's coming to save them, This is their last hope. They have to take this cannon out, and he's the only one left to do that, even after Poe calls them all off. I do think that what he's intending to do there is to mirror Poe's recklessness at the beginning of the movie, where Leia tries to call him off and he says no, no, no, we have to take out the dreadnought.

23:19 And he ultimately causes more deaths doing that than if he had just retreated, because for him, retreat's not an option. Can I ask a question real quick? Does he actually cause more deaths or does he save the entire resistance well? We don't know. I mean, again, we're talking about military tactics here. But like, can I finish my point on Finn though? Just like. Just just think this through for one second. Just just one second. Let's say he follows orders. He goes back to the thing and they jump through hyperspace and you know they didn't know it, but they get tracked and now the dreadnought shows up and blasts them out of space.

24:00 I listen and I think that that is also probably partially why he doesn't ultimately get treated harsher by Leia and Holdo. Like he gets demoted for disobeying orders but like they they both still have their moment where they're like I like this kid spunk. He just doesn't listen to anybody. I hate that moment. I don't. Brad. OK, let. Me make my point. God bless it dude. You're getting me off the topic. So I think Finn's character is ultimately the most problematic because there is no reason for Rose to save him there. And in fact like it. It only makes sense from the perspective of he should be sacrificing himself there. I think that what Rian Johnson's trying to do is provide a mirror image to what happened at the beginning of the movie with Poe and show that there has been character growth across characters there.

24:44 Whether that completely works or not. I, you know, I don't think it does completely work and I will, I will grant you that. I do think you're being really reductionistic about a number of things though, and you can, I don't think you can A draw the conclusion from events that happen in a movie that the writer or director of that movie endorses everything the characters do. I don't think that the canto bite sequence that I know we're going to talk about where you say that Rian Johnson hates capitalism. I don't think that necessarily means that Rian Johnson the man hates capitalism. Just because you don't like what the characters are saying doesn't mean you can always read that back on to the author. Even if you do want to read that back on to the author, I think that's a really reductionistic reading of that sequence in this movie. So why don't we spend 5 minutes talking about the canto bite sequence?

25:35 Because this is one of the biggest hang ups for people who dislike this movie. And Brad, you said it yourself. And for people who like the movie. But let's be honest. You know, it's funny 'cause like, I love the movie and that is like, it's fine. It's a good sequence. I think it's well made, but like my first point was going to be you said, you said the words in your last, you know, segment that you did that. He spends the whole movie getting told capitalism is bad. In regards to Finn, do you know how long the Canto byte sequence is in terms of runtime? It overall lasts probably like 40 minutes between different segments.

26:16 It's probably like 15 minutes, yeah, from, it's from 50. 4 minutes to 57 minutes and then again from 1:04 to 1:10 it is 9 minutes long. I and and again, like let's say you disagree with everything that happens and is said in that that stretch of the film. I guess I have a hard time understanding how what is ultimately like a side quest that has not much bearing on the film itself other than establishing themes, how that small of a sequence can become such a huge point for so many people. Because this is a long movie. And I, I really went back to it expecting the canto bite sequence to be a huge segment of the movie. And it's 9 minutes long.

27:00 And that includes like the chase on the horses, you know, across the, the grass and everything. So like, I don't know if you'll agree with me on this or not. I do think that it has been wildly outsized, the effect that that part of the movie has on people's readings of it, whether for good or for bad. I just don't think a 9 minute sequence can have that much impact on someone's appreciation for or hatred for a movie. But I don't know. Correct me if I'm wrong, Brad, I. Mean, I, I think that regardless of how long it is, there is so much that happens in that scene that really just doesn't make any sense.

27:41 And and you have to have so many leaps of logic to so much suspension of disbelief to believe that it's all happening, that that it makes it stand out as an example of how many leaps of logic you have to make for any of this movie to make sense. OK, so let's let's take a beat by beat. They arrive on Canto Bite and it's a visual punchline. So you have Rose and Finn in the ship, and they're talking about Canto Bite, and they've been told by this character, Maz Kanata, to look for a man wearing a red flower that he's going to be rolling craps or something in a casino there. And you get Rose basically echoing that line from A New Hope about it being like the most wretched hive of scum and villainy, and it's the worst people in the world.

28:27 And so as a Star Wars fan, you're thinking, oh, OK, this is going to be like a really seedy kind of, what's the cantina called in the first one? I can't think of the name of it, but most highs and Yeah And the. City is most highs. Right. And it's the cantina there. And then they cut to a bunch of people in tuxedos and you're basically in Monte Carlo or Monaco or somewhere like that. It's a visual gag. I, I, and maybe I'm being naive, Brad. And like, I know that you and I fall on opposite sides of the political spectrum. I know a number of people who from that very first beat immediately take the most antagonistic reading of Canto Bite and are like, Rian Johnson hates rich people, right?

29:09 And I just, for me, it was more just like a very, I think this movie is very Spielbergian in the way that he does his humor. There's much less of the Marvel style humor in this movie than what JJ did in the last one. And it's a lot of like visual punch lines and sight gags. And it reminded me a lot of that opening sequence of Temple of Doom where they're in the cabaret and everyone's wearing tuxedos there. There's some great nods to silent movies in the way that he's doing the camera work in that sequence. But the that sequence inside the casino where they're just looking for Justin Thoreau's character, I didn't really see anything in there that was like, we hate rich people, these people suck. Other than that, Rose thinks these people suck. And it's not till they get outside and are overlooking the racetrack and she gives her little soliloquy that it becomes clear, like, what her motivation is. But I think sometimes people want to project what she says out there onto that whole sequence and then even farther out onto the whole movie.

30:10 So if we're taking this beat by beat Brad, like did that opening part of the of the Canto bite sequence do it for you? Was it already antagonistic to rich people to you? Like what? What's the What are you picking up there? I mean, I, I think you said it already, like Rose frames it as these people are evil. It's it's a, she doesn't say Wretched Hive, but she mimics that line of like this is a evil place with evil people. That's kind of the essence of what she says. And then it shows rich people like I, I don't, I don't think I'm forcing something onto the, the movie that's not there.

30:54 Like she says it and then he shows it and there's nothing within that scene to pull that back. Every single shot of every single person in that movie is them being gross and rich and alcoholic and treating things like it's their property, you know, even if it's not. And and like, here's the thing I like I'm not here to defend rich people. What I'm here to say is it felt very reductionistic to say later during the soliloquy, like there's only one thing that people can get this rich off of. And I'm like, oh, I, I don't know, oil, like the natural resources, like there, there's so many things that you can get Uber wealthy off of. Like Elon Musk got Uber wealthy with cars, electric cars. I don't know, are these people selling an electric car? And mining.

31:51 But yeah, I just listen. So here's the thing though. It's like, again, you're reading Earthbound politics on to this in a way that like, yes, I think this movie touches on the idea of like war profiteering. And, and I think that's actually a really interesting angle because in a saga called Star Wars, we haven't really talked about that side of it before. We've talked about the politics of it. And the prequels focused very heavily on the bureaucracy of it. And I think that this is another really helpful way of examining like, if there are wars going on across galaxies, like how are they getting who, who's putting the orders in for all these ships? Where are they getting them from?

32:31 But apart from all that, when Rose is saying like, these are the worst people in the world and it cuts to rich people, it's funny because it's not what you're expecting. And I don't think it's necessarily super mean. And you see them being slovenly and, you know, they're just being rich people who have no cares in the world. But you're like, we've seen what evil looks like in the Star Wars universe. And so the fact that it doesn't look like that makes us think, at least for me, it made me think like, oh, Rose, like you must not have seen very much because we've seen what evil looks like in the in the universe of Star Wars. I don't take that as like Rian Johnson is on Rose's side and endorsing everything Rose says because we haven't, we haven't even gotten to the point where she's confessing yet why she feels that way.

33:17 So I think it's it's an equally justifiable reading of that sequence to think like Rose just hates rich people. These people are harmless, if not drunken. And I don't know, I mean, I guess, I guess we're just like digging our heels in on small points in this movie now. But I, I mean, I, I think that is a could be a matter of interpretation. I, I think for me, like, let's go back to the writing of the film and how he gets people to go from place to place. I, I think there's so many problems with this movie in terms of continuity, in terms of movement from scene to scene. Like there, there's so many simple places of logic that that lead this movie into really messy situations. And Canto canto bite is one of those examples. Like if if this is the place of of evil rich people who have all this money, who have security, who are annoyed about parking illegally on a beach and has a security force that will throw you in jail because of a parking ticket. Do you really think that they would be allowed into that casino?

34:33 But like they like they just walk in with their dirty jackets and their dirty, smelly rebellion things. And like, if we're going to double down on this place being evil, like they just they just walk in after landing. And there's so many little things like this throughout the movie that it within the movie The first time, the second time, the third time I've watched this where I'm like, really, how, how did they do that? How did they get into a ship and escape? When you know, the, the 1st order can detect when people are going and they just jump into hyperspace and leave the, the rebellion. Sorry, it's not the rebellion, it's the resistance.

35:14 They leave the resistance just as out of nowhere. There's just so many little things like this that make me go. Can I have any effort on the script other than the themes that he's trying to push? I mean, I do think that they they address things like this in the movie though. And you're right, that particular thing they don't address from the first orders perspective. But like when when they sneak off, the one time you have the one girl that hold. I was like, what was that? That just went by and she's like, oh, nothing, It was just debris. And then from the first orders perspective, there is a time where people start peeling off from the main ship and they're like, it's a distraction, like focus on the main ship. So it's possible they did see them go. They just, it's just not in the movie.

35:56 I guess you're right in that it does require some suspension of disbelief. But I was thinking the whole time you were talking about like wearing dirty clothes into the casino. I'm thinking about that scene in Top Gun Maverick after his brand new plane explodes in mid air. And it's such a weird jarring thing that a lot of people have speculated that the entire movie is that Tom Cruise's character is dead. And this is like his dying hallucination, which I think is a stupid interpretation. But like the following scene, he shows up like a full day later at this diner that looks like it's out of the 1950s and he's covered in soot and dust and and looks like a spaceman. And it's funny because he's so out of place there, but you don't take a ton of time to just say, like, how did he find this place? How long has he been wondering?

36:46 Why is he, why does he like I, I guess like I don't really care how they got in. Like why, why that doesn't? Require that doesn't require any suspension. Disbelief. He crashed outside this town and he walked in and went into the first bar he found. It does require suspension disbelief in that you see him going Mach 10 and then the thing explodes in mid air in the next scene. He's totally fine, he's just a little dusty. I'm like, I'm just saying when the movie is working for you and it clearly wasn't for you, but when a movie is working, there are things that not only are you willing to set aside, but that you're just not really thinking about. And for me, like, how did they get into this casino? Wearing dirty clothes was just not really one of them, you know what I mean?

37:27 And and I think that if we can finish the canto bite thing and then drink some whiskey, for God's sake. Like, they go out on the balcony and Rose gives her long spiel about there's only one thing people can get this wealthy off of. And in the context of this movie on this planet, there's probably rich people on other planets with other casinos. But this particular one is full of people who are war profiteers. And I think one of the things that is interesting to me is that this movie came out again, we've talked about this the last couple weeks in a really, really charged political climate. Like, this movie came out in 2017. This was pre pandemic when all of our anger was directed at only one type of person, and it was the person on the opposite side of the political aisle from you.

38:13 I think that there has just been a long, long history of movies on both the left and the right of just like rich people can really suck and they're too Snooty and we need to hit him in the face with a pie. And like, that's the entire premise of most comedies by Charlie Chaplin and Buster Keaton and, you know, Laurel and Hardy and whoever. All through the history of movies, it's just been funny to bring rich people down a peg. And I don't think it was ever interpreted as some grand political statement. And you get in this movie, and he gives a justification for why the rich people are there and why Rose doesn't like them and her desire to, like, stick it to him a little bit.

38:55 And then they steal some horses and they, you know, smash up the casino a little bit and they leave. Ultimately, those rich people live on. They have not dismantled the system of rich people Ness and it's just a fun little sequence of them, like getting a small win amidst a whole series of failures. And I don't I don't think I ever saw it as more than that. And I'm, I guess I'm just surprised at how much that sequence has become not just a hang up for people, but the lens through which they view this entire movie and its themes. It it's because of the last lines. So once again, this is an example of the terrible writing of the movie. So Finn and Rose, why do they go to Canto Bite to find the code breaker and to save literally save the thing they care about most, maybe not Finn, but the thing that Rose cares about most, the resistance.

39:50 That's why they're there. And then they ride these horses off and she's, you know, bitter and angry about rich people. And they ride these horses off and they smash up the casino. And they finally get to the end of their little joyride. And he and Finn goes, you know, it was all worth it, all worth it to, to wreck up that place to, to smash through it all. And this is at a moment where they don't think they're going to escape, correct? They they literally are at the end of the line. And he goes, you know, it was all worth it to smash up that place a little bit. And then she goes, hold on a second. She frees the horse and says, now it was all worth it.

40:35 It's like, whoa, whoa, whoa. No, it was not all worth it. These are insanely wealthy people that this will barely be a blip on the radar. All of the creatures that you just released out into the wild, guess what? They're going to capture them back or they're bred in captivity and they're going to die out in the wild. You nailed it, guys. Great job. See, again, I just think that. You're and then out of and then out of nowhere the code breaker just shows up. But why does he show up? Why doesn't he just run off? He's a scoundrel. He's the worst type of scum and villainy in the world. Why does he show up randomly? How does he know where they are? And he just picks them up and and decides like, well, maybe I'll listen to your thing on on doing this. I There's just so many leaps in logic and so many places where theme and and his desire to say things comes above any of the characters and what they actually desire. Yeah, I just think this is one of those areas where, like, it's not that you're reading into it too much, but I think you're reading an I'll intent on to it that I just don't see there. Like they say it's all worth it because they think they're going to die and they're trying to find one, one small victory before they get swallowed up by this machine that is the 1st order.

41:50 And it's, it's very similar to what happens at the end of Rogue One. Like they don't know if their mission is ultimately successful. They think it is, but like they hold hands and watch the freaking beach blow up because they have to believe that they did something worthwhile. And for Rose and Finn, who's now think that the entire resistance is doomed in that they're going to die, they have to find one thing to cling to in their last moments. And he's like, you know what? Like F it. At least we got to stick it to the man a little bit. And she says, like, she lets the horse go. And the horse is a symbol for like the fact that they have both come up under these regimes where like everyone is downtrodden and like, they get to give freedom to something, if only for a brief moment that they themselves have never been able to experience.

42:33 I don't understand how that is a like, out of line with the themes of Star Wars in general. Like Star Wars is all about that dude. Like I, I guess I, I, I just don't see what is malicious in a theme like that in this movie. Here's the thing, Bob. I'm not even saying that it's malicious. I'm saying that it's insanely poorly written and it's placing themes above characters and who they are and what they've been caring about. Like, I'm sorry, but the way, and maybe it's the acting, maybe it's the way that Johnson directed his actors. I I don't know. All I'm saying is the way that they deliver those lines at the end are not defeated people who are about to be crushed under the boot of the 1st Order and lose every single thing that they ever hoped to gain in the world, that they're simply joyriders who are like, well, it's, it's like a Breakfast Club ending.

43:32 Like there's no sense of them, like feeling the weight of what has just happened, about how they've utterly failed in their mission. Like nothing, nothing matters, and then nothing really does matter because they get to keep going on the mission consequence free. And then, oh wait, they get caught by ABB 8 Droid who suddenly is able to see through it and that little BB Droid stops them and they're captured and there's a whole legion of troops around them. And then Holdo does her hyperdrive attack and wow, every single stormtrooper around them is dead except for Phasma who was right next to them and now isn't, and now she's leading a legion of troops at them.

44:20 And man, right when Rose is about to help Finn in his battle against Phasma, who suddenly has a little sword thing that she's fighting him with, there's a gunner that just appears out of nowhere and shoots at her and keeps her from helping Finn. And then as soon as Finn has his moment and defeats Phasma, guess what? That cannon is just gone now because Finn had his moment and he had his time in the spotlight. And so now the thing that that Johnson used to keep Rose from helping him just disappears. And they jump on BB8's stolen ATST and they just run off and all of a sudden they're on a ship and they're in crate.

45:00 There's just so many things like this throughout the movie that it's a it's a horrifically bad script, yeah. I just disagree, man. I like and and again, we need to throw it a whiskey. I will say this, man, I'm trying my best to let you just speak your piece. I I think you've definitely you've definitely had a lot more to say than I have so far, which is fine, but also like I love this movie. I think that this is I, I mean, I've told you already, this is my favorite Star Wars movie. I this, this time around confirmed it for me. I think it's a masterfully written script. I think each character's arc makes perfect sense for what the characters need to become. And I think Rian Johnson was handed kind of a big question mark at the end of The Force Awakens, a movie where quite literally nothing happens.

45:46 We are in almost the exact same spot at the end of that film that we were in the beginning of the film. And he's handed, no, I don't know, 18 characters from that first movie that he has to find Arcs 4. And he is tasked with either getting those people to the finish line or trimming the fat. And I think that like, we'll talk about this in the second-half. I think his decision to dispatch with Snoke is great because we don't need Snoke. And he, you know, he does this with a couple other characters as well. I don't think Rose completely works and I'll I'll grant you that, But I think for the most part, what he's doing is finding ways for these characters to have meaningful growth within their own small story while also serving the general theme of this movie, which is that failure is a great teacher and that self sacrifice can sometimes be more harmful than doing what's best for the greater good.

46:43 And I think that each of those small stories feeds back into this, whether it's Kylo Ren, whether it's Poe Dameron, I just, I think it's a great script and we are at complete odds here. And so hopefully, Brad, when we go to drink whiskey here at the 48 minute mark, we will find some common ground in either hating or loving this thing. So Jim Beam, it is all down to you. Brad, what do you say we drink some single barrel? Let's get to it, Bob. All right, Jim Beam, Single Barrel. Brad, I can hear the frustration in your voice. Are you, are you actively mad at me or are you just frustrated with the film and the fact that I like it? I think that we should talk about whiskey. Oh.

47:33 OK. All right. OK. Jim Beam Single Barrel, it's the third one we've tried from Jim Beam in this line up. Of five Jim Beam products that we are trying, it is by far the most expensive one. It usually clocks in somewhere between 30 and $40. Now this is a, like I said, single barrel whiskey at 108 proof, so not bottled at barrel proof, but it is also not age stated. It's rumored to be somewhere between five and six years old. And the mash bill on this consists of I just had it pulled up 75% corn, 13% rye, 12% malted barley. Brad, where, where are you falling so far on this Jim Beam lineup of ours? I think that the price point has saved it. I, I'll say this, I am a fan of any whiskey brand that can keep putting out average to decent whiskey for very cheap prices. Like in a world where you know, the, the whiskey industry has just bubbled beyond belief and prices are insane. I, I think it's cool that there's a company who's like, hey, we know our lane.

48:51 Like sure, prices have gone up a little bit for our stuff, but not exorbitantly. And we know what we're doing. We know what we're about and we're going to give you a solid value at the price point we're offering. So I, I, I think I'm a fan. Totally agree. I mean, I haven't really been a fan of the whiskeys themselves. I've been a fan of the price point to your point. And you know, when it comes to single barrels, you know, I'll give two small caveats here, Brad. We don't typically love doing single barrels on the show because we only have enough time to review a label once usually and if it's a single barrel we are rolling the dice. It could be wildly different from the general flavor wheelhouse of that label, but we just got an off barrel. However, balancing that out is the fact that Jim Beam is freaking huge conglomerate and they're pumping out thousands and thousands and thousands of barrels a year.

49:39 On their website they say less than 1% are chosen to become Jim Beam single barrels. But even with that small of a, you know, a segment like we're talking about enough barrels that I think we're going to get a good sense of what a Jim Beam single barrel tastes like here. So you've tried it already, man, I have not. And boy, oh boy, do I need a drink at this point in the episode. So why, why don't you take it away man, with your nosing notes? On the nose here it came across a decently oaky but but not too much to where it it ruins the nose. There's some orange peels, some honeycomb, a bit of like a mixed spice vibe, more on like the baking spices side of things. I think this is a pretty solid nose. I'm curious where it'll go and I'm going to give it a 7 1/2. I like this a lot.

50:30 There's a weird kind of most oniony note. I don't know how to explain this man. It's like real sweet and it has the oak to it. But then there's something that's real savory and almost, again, oniony to me. It's a note I've never quite gotten on a whiskey before, but it smells a little bit funky. Little Jim Sake, and I don't quite know how to feel about that, Brad. I'm still going to give it a 6 1/2 on the nose though. I think the palate is where this thing really comes to life. There, there. The funkiness to it for me turned into like a tart cherry. The baking spices settled into a really nice cinnamon flavor on the palate. There's vanilla there, there's caramel. Honestly, it's a really nice mixture of some some kind of stone fruit spicy mixed with some traditional bourbon notes. I'll give it an 8 out of 10 here. I really like this.

51:30 This is very different than what we've been drinking the last couple weeks though. And excuse me, my mouth is watering 'cause this is really prickly on the palate. Like it's got a lot of spice to it. Cinnamon for sure, but it's like unsweetened cinnamon. It's like a like if you did the cinnamon challenge, that's kind of like what it reminds me of a little bit. I'm with you in that there's a almost bitter kind of stone fruit, like when you get close to the pit of a stone fruit kind of thing going on here and it's super oaky. But then I took a second sip and I think that some of the candy sweetness definitely came out a little bit. So I like it a lot. It's a little bit thin on the mouthfeel and we'll get to this in the finished part.

52:10 But the finish is almost non existent. Like there's a ton of flavor and then you swallow and it's gone. But when it comes to the taste, I'm gonna give it an 8 out of 10. And then getting into my finished score, like I said, it's it's really watery. There's not a lot that lingers. It's OK, but it's just super short. I'll just give it a 6 1/2 here as well, Brad. Yeah, I, I'm in a similar place on the finish. It's a 7 out of 10 for me. The cinnamon sticks around. It gets a little bit peppery and oaky as as you'd expect. But yeah, it, it falls off on the finish for sure. I'm at a 7 out of 10. I think balance wise, I'm also going to stick at a 7 out of 10.

52:52 While I think that there are good flavors here, there's not quite enough complexity to really push this score up. And I, I think that the lack of a solid finish really hurts it. But you know, overall 7 out of 10, still a decent balance. I'm really impressed with this flavor and I think that I'm going to let it influence me more than it should 'cause I, I don't think this is an 8 out of 10 balance. Like for God's sake, I picked up onion on the nose here, but I don't know, man, I just like it. I think that it's a, it's like everything I would expect Jim Beam to be. If you said, hey, here's, here's straight from the barrel Jim Beam. Like I don't think we're choosing the highest quality whiskey that Jim Beam makes.

53:34 They're going to be releasing that as bookers and bakers and you know what I mean? Like so, so to still have the Jim Beam label on it, this is pretty darn good. I'm going to give it an 8 out of 10 on the balance. And this is where things get a little bit dicey, Brad, 'cause I'm at a 29 out of 40 so far on just the tasting part of it. But now we get into value and I believe I paid like $37 for this. I don't know what it's currently going for in Ohio. $39. 39, yeah, see, that's 40. You know what I mean? Like, I don't even consider that 39. It's 40. Yeah, yeah, 100%. Like you're paying taxes, 4142 bucks. I, I, I don't think this is a bad value. I think it needs to be at or under $35. Agreed.

54:22 Like I, I think if you're getting this at a $31.00, you know, $30.99 type of price tag, this is probably like an 8 out of 10 value, 9 out of 10 value. Like it, it's got a lot going for it hitting that $40 range. It's not a bad score, but I'll give it a 6 1/2. I think I'm going to be in a similar spot, you know, when it comes to the $3435 range. I don't even know if this is true anymore, but I always associate that price with Elijah Craig. Like the regular standard 90 proof or I guess 94 proof Elijah Craig. I think this is comparable to that in terms of how much I like it, and I really like Elijah Craig. But would I pay $6 more for this than I would for a bottle of Elijah Craig, even if it is 108 proof and single barrel? Probably not.

55:11 I think it's a little bit too high. I still think it's a good value though, 'cause I can't think of a lot of single barrels that are A, under $40 and B, that tastes this good under $40.00. So I'm going to go ahead and give it a 7.5 on value, and that is bringing my final score here to a 36.5 out of 50. Brad, where are you falling on this one? We are nearly in lockstep on this, Bob. I'm at a 36 out of 50. The great equalizer man. Jim Beam, Single Barrel. Yeah, it sure is. We're. Coming to a 36.25 out of 50 or a what is that, 72.5 out of 100?

55:54 So it's definitely over the 35 mark where we start recommending. And I think I will give this a pretty solid, hearty thumbs up, man. I think it's worth buying a bottle. I actually think it'd also be worth getting a pour at the bar 'cause it'll probably run you like 8 or $9 for a pour. And I think that the spiciness of this merits an 8 to $9 pour. Yeah, I, I, I would agree with you. I think this is a really solid whiskey that you should pick up. I, I think the Beam is doing a mostly good job at matching the price point to what's in the bottle. So yeah, I'm I'm a fan here. We did it, man. Why don't we just call it a day right now?

56:35 Let's not give the movie any scores. Bob, we, we haven't talked about Rey, we haven't talked about Kylo, we haven't talked about Luke. We at like, we've literally talked about Finn and Rose. I'll tell you what. Here's what we should do. This is the the capitalist in me that apparently Ryan Johnson would hate. I think we should set some sort of goal for our Patreon. And if we hit that? Goal. We will do the full probably 3 hour version of this episode like you and I will talk. I would too because honestly, dude, I'm, I'm be honest with you, like we, we are going back and forth, but it's been a respectful and BI would say well articulated on both of our fronts. And I feel like I've been stammering a lot, but I even beyond that, I think that we've articulated our points well. I'm enjoying the hell out of this. We're just on different sides of this. But I could keep going on why I love this movie for another hour and a half.

57:33 And I think you could definitely get through more of that 22 page document of yours. Yeah, bye, bye. I think I could pretty easily do that. All that to say, we're not going to do that today. So we got to speed things along a little bit, condense in a way that that Ryan Johnson could not the rest of this episode. So Brad, let's get back into talking about The Last Jedi. What do you say? Let's get to it. All right, everybody. That was Jim Beam Single Barrel, the final time Bob and I will ever agree on anything. Man, well I guess thanks for the send off Jim Beam.

58:14 You know what we can agree on though Brad? One more thing we can agree on is that I am killing it at our next game, which we call 2 facts and a falsehood. Brad is going to try to stump your ball to all right. And what is wrong? Two facts and a falsehood. Two facts and a falsehood is the part of the show where Bob absolutely owns Brad because Bob is 17 and 12 on the season I have secured. It's clearly not your take on last. Jedi, I have secured not just a 500 season but a winning season against Brad and if that's the only victory I get against Brad today, I will still be a happy man. What is 2 facts and a falsehood you ask? Let's get this over with, Bob.

59:00 They know what it is. We need, we need to get back into the the the analysis. Come on. All right, fine. They do know what it is. They can. They can infer. Hit me with your two facts and a falsehood. Fact #1 Mark Hamill's three children, Chelsea, Nathan, and Griffin, all make uncredited appearances as resistant fighters during the Battle of Great. Fact #2 Gareth Edwards, director of Rogue One, a Star Wars Story, appears in a small role as an entrenched resistant soldier during the final battle. He is to the left. He is not the character who says this, but he's to the left of the character who tastes the ground saying it's salt and then spits. Fact #3 Longtime Star Wars producer Dave Filoni made an uncredited appearance in the film as one of the pilots on the Rebel command ship during their flight from the 1st Order. I think you got me today, man.

59:52 I don't know or care about any of these. Who made cameo appearances And what? Hey, was that James Corden as the fat pilot at the beginning? Was it James Corden? You know, like he like Porkins in the original trilogy. I it looked like James Corden. And it may just be because I don't like James Corden and like, you know, seeing him immediately, like this movie, seeing him immediately get shredded in this movie was like, ah, hurray, cosmic come up. I don't. I don't think it was James Corden, but I could be wrong. Yeah, I don't know. They looked like him, but again, who knows? OK. Are Mark Hamill's kids in this? I don't know.

1:00:33 Gareth Edwards, I feel like I heard that he made a cameo in this movie, but it could be as somebody completely different. And then the third one is Dave Filoni. You said I don't know who that is or what he does or anything so. He produced the clone wars animated show. He like way back in 2002 he produced Star Wars Rebels which was the first Disney animated show and I think he had something to do maybe not with Mandalorian but maybe Obi Wan. He he's been around Star Wars for a long time like pre Disney. OK, so here's where I am at on this. I think that number one's probably true or likely true just as like throwing a bone to Mark Hamill. I don't know why they would bring in Gareth Edwards just to be in this movie unless he and Ryan Johnson had some really cool relationship.

1:01:30 But it makes more sense that they would put Gareth Edwards in a cameo than that they would put some random producer in a cameo. Cause like, people don't know what producers look like. They might know what, you know, like, if you're a Christopher Nolan fan, you know what Christopher Nolan looks like. So maybe they were thinking they'd get a couple people in the audience to be like, oh, it's Gareth Edwards. I'm going to say #3 is false. But I think it's possible that you made all three of these facts up. I would do that to screw you on this movie. However, my honor is greater than my desire to see you fail, and you have picked out the correct false all. Right. Is Dave Filoni even a real person? Yeah, no, 100% everything I told you about him is true. I might have worded it wrong because I wrote it. He was the producer of those shows and director. So that that probably is what lost me the battle there. But yeah, he, he has produced and directed and like within the Star Wars fandom, he's like kind of revered as somebody who is a true Star Wars nerd that also got a chance to direct and, and like expand the Star Wars universe and did it well, unlike other unnamed, you know, candidates. Well, cool, I'm at 18 and 12 now. I might just take the next two weeks off and just say screw it, pick, pick a number out of a hat from 1:00 to 3:00. OK, so we both have lots that we

1:03:04 want to say that we don't have room to say in this episode. We have not talked about any of the major characters. I guess I want to talk about Rian Johnson real quick, though, before we do anything else. Do you have any exposure to him outside of this movie? Have you seen any of his prior films to this, or any of his subsequent films to this? I have seen the final few episodes of Breaking Bad he directed. Yep, I have seen Knives out part one. Not that it's a part one, but the first one and that's it. OK, so. I have also seen the way that he interacted with Star Wars fans and I think that one of the reasons I do think he has I'll intent towards the Star Wars universe is because of how childish and condescending. And like to be frank, he's a giant a hole to any Star Wars fan who's kind of like, hey, I don't know if I loved your movie.

1:04:10 I think it did a lot of not great things to the universe of Star Wars. And he literally will tweet things at them like the following. Yes I absolutely see your well laid out and rational argument that my Dick and I like if you think I'm making this up. He literally replied 434 times in a row to a guy who was making salient points on Twitter. I know it's crazy, but the guy was just saying things like, hey man, like the writing wasn't as good as you're making it out to be. Like there's some flaws with it and pointing it out isn't like evil. And he just consistently uses the most childish and rude and he's just an A hole Star Wars fans. And it's hard not to, to look at so many of the things in this movie and go, yeah, Rian Johnson, not the guy I want in charge of the Star Wars universe, even for one film. I get it.

1:05:16 I get it, man. I so here's the thing. I don't know anything about Rian Johnson as a as a person. I've never heard him being accused of an A hole by like people on set with him. He seems to be well liked by a lot of people. I also think that like, dude, you know what the Star Wars fan base can do to people and they they were doing it to Daisy Ridley in the first movie until they got a new target in Ryan Johnson in this movie. And then they moved on to JJ in the third movie as somebody to lob hate bombs at. They did it to Jake Lloyd in the prequels that drove the kid to become schizophrenic. I mean, like, it's it it's a very toxic fan base full of people who have high expectations. Now, does that excuse what he said? Absolutely not. But I also know that like you and I go at each other and then call each other a Dick.

1:06:01 Imagine a million people coming at you like that. I I just, you know, I'm not trying to defend him. And I think that you're probably right that like he got accused of being the guy that destroyed Star Wars. And after a million people say that about you, maybe you just embraced the role of villain. I think where you and I differ sometimes is that I don't read that back on to the movie. I think he made this with really good intentions and then it did not land the way he wanted it to land. And he just decided to lean into people hating him after a while. I think it is childish. And I think that, like, you know, he's, he has now cemented his legacy in Star Wars. I, I don't know that there's going to be some huge revisionist reading of this movie 20 years from now.

1:06:44 I think people have pretty much decided what they've decided about this one, you know, and that's his own doing to to your point. Sure. I, I, I do think though, that there's examples within the movie of Johnson responding more to fans talking about The Force Awakens and what The Last Jedi might be, then actually working with the characters that he was handed, then working with the characters that he has been building throughout the script. Like I, I think one of the worst elements of this movie is, is the treatment of Rey. And it doesn't give her anything interesting to do it. It doesn't give her any meaningful challenges that she can't just overcome without any effort or training. And and you see her at the end of the Force Awakens. We've kind of like JJ for all the not great stuff he did, he actually resolves the emotional weight of her parentage, her her parenthood.

1:07:48 Like Maz Kanata talks to her about it and says, hey, like you're looking for somebody to come back so you'll have somewhere to belong. Belonging lies in front of you, not behind you. And and she has an actual emotional moment over that. And you see her grow as a character at the end of The Force Awakens in that her parentage is solved. Like, like, we're done with it. She has found belonging with a new group of people. And then in this movie, all of a sudden, we jump right back to, oh, but your parents are nobodies. And there's nothing within the films because whether Ryan likes it or not, his film exists in a series, in a universe of films.

1:08:35 There's nothing within the films that would indicate that Rey should be interested if her parents are somebody's or not. She never cared if they were somebody's. She was only concerned that they were coming back and once she released that, she's able to emotionally move on. And then we get to The Last Jedi and all of a sudden she's concerned that there's somebodies and like there's nobody who cared about that other than Star Wars fans. In between The Last Jedi or The Force Awakens, The Last Jedi, Star Wars fans were going nuts. Like who? Who is Rey's parentage? Like who? Who are her parents? They have to be a Skywalker or maybe Palpatine or right, and they're throwing out all these options, and then Rian Johnson has to come in and say, hey, everybody, screw you. Her parents were nobodies.

1:09:26 And it has nothing to do with what's actually going on for Rey as a character. See, I disagree because I think that thematically it's not just addressing her lineage, it's addressing her role in being trained by Luke. Like, they send her to Luke. And even if she has has gotten over the emotional journey of her parents, at the end of the first movie, JJ puts her in front of Luke. And so it makes sense that being someone who is new to this whole thing and now being confronted with, I have Force abilities and I have to live up to someone like Luke Skywalker. And my nemesis is somebody who comes from the sort of royal bloodline in Kylo Ren that she is emotional and, you know, thrown into disequilibrium by the fact that she doesn't know what her place is in any of this.

1:10:19 And so by freeing herself of the idea that her parents had to be somebody, she's also freeing herself of the idea that, like, Luke Skywalker has to be somebody to her. And Luke, you know, for all she knows, Luke has continued to dig his heels in and not be helpful. And she finally basically finds it within herself to go off and do what she needs to do, mirroring the journey of Luke in Empire. I mean, like Luke disobeys Yoda to go do what Yoda says to not do. And in this movie, she disobeys Luke to go disobey what he says to not do. And I think that one of the big frustrations for me is like, I think that Johnson recognized what JJ was doing with the 1st movie, which is I'm gonna, I'm going to fulfill what A New Hope was to that trilogy by just making a carbon copy of A New Hope. Whereas he says I need to fulfill what Empire did in its trilogy.

1:11:16 And instead of just making a carbon copy of Empire, he takes some of the basic like shades of Empire and themes of Empire and weaves them into this movie. And I think it does fulfill essentially the same function of Empire in the original trilogy. I just think that he does it in a way that is unexpected. And I, I don't know, man. I think we're talking in circles here. He does it in ways that spit on what has come from the past. I don't like, I just don't see that dude. Dude, there's no way to look at what he does to Luke as a character, as anything other than the assassination of what we all knew and loved and we're thankful for and admired. That you had this character who represents the human desire to see good in dark places.

1:12:14 And now that character, because he saw darkness in his nephew's heart or mind or whatever, he saw darkness there. And so he has a moment of weakness where he's going to try and kill him. Like, I don't know if I can fully explain how far of a leap in logic that is, how much suspension of disbelief you have to have. I'm not opposed to Luke becoming a grumpy old mentor who has gone through some stuff, but for that to be the choice, for that to be the thing that throws him off. And then like, he knows that Snoke has influenced Ben. Like, it's not like this evil is just a rising within Ben Solo on his own.

1:13:08 He knows that he's being seduced the same way his father is. And with that knowledge, what does he do? He just throws up his hand and goes, eh, F it. He can just be Snoke's pawn and I'm going to go die like. I don't think again, I think you're being reductionistic, man. Like if he sees that in his nephew, it is mirroring what he saw in his own father. And he couldn't keep the Emperor from having influence over Darth Vader, but he still chose to hope that there was good there. And sometimes that means like you can't step in at this moment and you have to hope that there will be a moment that you can step in at the same time. The fact that he was ready to kill him is completely consistent with his character.

1:13:51 He was ready to kill his dad on a number of occasions. Even after finding out that it was his dad, he was ready to kill him on a number of occasions. Like I, I just, I think that what Johnson is doing is taking that character and just saying like, all right, what will this look like 30 years from now? A guy who has not tempted by the dark side, but burdened by his knowledge of an exposure to the dark side. It's really similar to like a Frodo type character to me. Like what happens with Frodo is completely consistent with what you see of Frodo in the first movie, and by the third movie, it's like, oh, he's gone to some really dark places and that has an effect on a person. I think he just does that to Luke here, but it doesn't undermine or negate the journey that Luke's been on to that point. It 100% negates it.

1:14:37 Like, let's just throw Frodo off for a second. There's an external source of evil penetrating his soul. That's completely different than what we're talking about here in Star Wars. The idea that because I agree with you, Luke comes close to killing his father when they're fighting on the Death Star and Return of the Jedi. And then he doesn't. He stops. He throws his lightsaber away and makes that choice. And now we have Rian Johnson just saying, yeah, he made that important character defining series franchise deciding decision. And yeah, you know what? I, I don't really think that that stuck.

1:15:19 I I think he got old and and lazy and just decided to kill his nephew. Nope, he's he. He's actually going to move further back as a character and be less interested in redeeming his nephew and more interested in just lazily solving the problem by killing him. But he. Even says that he momentarily had a lapse in judgement and decided not to do anything the same that he did with his dad on the Death Star in the third. Like why does why does him having a a defining moment in his life in the third movie mean that he can never make a mistake again as a person? I'm not saying that he can't, I'm saying that to put the exact same decision in front of him and say well he failed it this time is lazy writing.

1:16:06 I don't know that he failed it though, like he failed in that he let down his nephew and that's what he says, but he passes the test in terms of not killing him. I I just like, again, I think it's completely consistent with who we've we've been introduced to this character as especially having seen the destruction wrought upon the Galaxy and his own family from his dad getting tempted to the dark side when he sees that sort of darkness tempting his own nephew. Of course you're going to be tempted to want to put a stop to it before it even starts because in his mind, millions of people might die. And he says, I thought about it. I didn't do anything about it, but it was already too late. And then they they it's a great Rashomon moment. Like they pan down and they show Ben Solo a scared little boy like, and Luke realizes what have I done?

1:16:53 But then it's too late. It puts everything into motion and like. Ah yes, the classic Rashomon rash man way of convincing Brad to like a movie. I'm not trying to convince. Listen, listen, dude, you have made your choice a long time ago. Just like, just like Anakin Skywalker, you have made your choice. So I brought up Rian Johnson 15 minutes ago because I wanted to just say one thing I don't know if you'll agree with me on because I know that you don't like this movie. But one thing that I would like to briefly talk to you about is watching this movie. For better or for worse, it felt like a movie that a guy that was way more well versed in movies made than JJ Abrams.

1:17:37 Like there's just much more purposeful camera movement. And I, I brought up Spielberg earlier. There's a ton of wonders in this movie where you start, you know, looking out the window of a spaceship and then it pulls back and then it pans over and you get 3 setups in one shot. I think it's, it's a much more like deliberately made movie. And there's a ton of references to other films in the shots of this movie. I guess I'm wondering, Brad, apart from how much you hate Ryan Johnson's writing in the direction that the movie takes, like, what did you think about the actual visual language of the movie 'cause I also thought that like, Force Awakens looked like a movie that was filmed on like the Disney back lot, whereas this movie looked way more like a movie. The lighting, the cinematography, I think it might be the best looking of All Star Wars movies. It's really, really beautiful to look at in parts, man. So I, you know, if there is a silver lining, I guess I'm hoping that you appreciated any of that. I, I don't know if it, I think that I was so distracted by not enjoying the action sequences that I, I don't know if I could have said that I would have noticed a lot of the slower scenes and how they use the camera in those scenes. I think I was also very distracted by characters like Holdo and just yeah, I was very distracted by the script and how horrifically bad it's

1:19:08 hemorrhaging at every moment. So no, I don't think I noticed it as much. I do think that the action in this film is mediocre at best. Like the the opening. The opening scene with the bombers is just really dumb and boring and there's no movement and there's no energy to the scene. Dude, I thought if there was going to be one point of commonality today, it was going to be that. We both love that opening sequence 'cause you know how in The Force Awakens, JJ does that thing where they're first escaping on the Millennium Falcon and he does the like Zack Snyder zoom in a couple times where it's like a mile away and then it'll like zoom in real close on the on the Falcon. That visual language threw me off a lot because I'd never seen that in a Star Wars movie.

1:19:58 And there's a lot of stuff in this movie that I've never seen in a Star Wars movie, to be fair. But I also thought that like the way the camera moved in that opening sequence was like, oh, this dude has been watching Raiders of the Lost Ark and us like Spielberg action sequences. To to start this movie, I thought it was absolutely thrilling. It was right up there with the Revenge of the Sith for best openings for me. Oh dude the opening of this movie was so boring. So boring. The the whole bomber sequence is asininely stupid. The prank call to Poe or that Poe makes. That's my least favorite moment in the whole movie 'cause it's it's close to the JJ Marvel humor thing. Not sure.

1:20:44 I will say to his credit, that is like the only time you get that type of humor in the movie. And I like, if there's one thing that JJ does worse than Ryan, I think you got to say JJ leaned on the Marvel humor. There there. I will say the other point of that is the porgs, the the little furry bird creatures with Chewy, like every bit of humor with them is just dumb and silly and like just doesn't vibe with the Star Wars universe at all. Also like the fact that he relegates Chewy to an Uber driver is just kind of disappointing. Like he doesn't destroy Chewy's character the way he does with Luke, but you know, it's Chewy.

1:21:25 Like he has a major role to play in the other films as a sidekick. And in this one it's just kind of like, hey, can you drive me around? That'd be, that'd be great. I I think though, man, I, I, we were talking about the opening scene. That's OK. No, because we, we need to wind down. Listen, last thing I'll ask you, though, in comparison to Force Awakens, last week you said that you wish that JJ had just not resurrected these characters at all, that we could have just gotten a new trilogy free from, I guess that wasn't last week, two weeks ago. You know what I mean? Free from Han Solo and Luke and Leia. I, I do feel a bit of sympathy with JJ or with Ryan Johnson here, though, because I think he does a really good job in relegate, like you said, relegating Chewie to an Uber driver.

1:22:11 Chewie's not necessary to this story. And I think that like you kind of get saddled with these characters by JJ and then it's like, once JJ brings them in back into the universe, you, you feel obligated to use them in a really important way. But I I think it would have felt even more shoehorned in and forced if he tried to give all those characters more screen time. So it to me at least, it seems like he's trying to do what you suggested, which is like, yes, have them make an appearance, but like they're not necessarily important to this particular story. And I'm wondering why that's a bad thing here when you hated the opposite of it last week. No, I, I, I'm not saying that Chewie has to be a major thing in the movie. What I am saying is let let's take death as an example. So in the previous film, a little small lesser known character named Han Solo dies.

1:23:02 In this movie, no name bomber lady dies at the start of the film, right? We get an entire scene of Rose and Finn discussing the importance of her sacrifice, of how Rose is mourning this character, of right, how you're trying to escape after what my sister did right. We get this whole emotional scene about the death of a character we saw for 12 seconds. And yet, when Luke and Chewie have their only interaction of the entire movie, Luke is about to find out that Han dies, but nobody actually tells him that on screen. We just cut away to Kylo Ren.

1:23:51 What? You're telling me that within the world of Star Wars, it's not important for us to see Luke mourn the loss of his absolute best friend in the world? The husband to his sister, the father to his nephew, the guy he saved the Galaxy with. Like you're, you're not going to let Chewie and Luke mourn that together? Like I, I don't know what that's going to look like, but that's a meaningful moment of catharsis that Johnson's just like, no, not, not important. Let's get back to Rose and her sister. And it's just little things like that where I'm like, why? Where is any understanding of the importance of characters and their relationships in this movie? It's just missing.

1:24:40 Yeah, I guess I, I just disagree with that man. Like, I, I thought that the there's like a, an emotional weight to him saying like, where's Han? And then you know that off screen he's being told what happened. I don't feel like, I feel like showing that would almost be like torture porn a little bit. Like we don't need to see him weeping about that because we, we already know, we've wept for it already as an audience. And so to revisit that just for the sake of Luke's character slows down the movie, but also is is just unnecessary to keeping the movie going forward. And I know this is a long movie. I didn't have a problem with the pacing of this movie. I thought it moved really, really well. It it almost tells a complete arc of a story before you even get to crate at the end of the movie.

1:25:26 And then you get that cool. Like what I said about James Cameron, how he always just gives you like a bonus ending to the movie. I I thought that here, I thought that Ryan could have taken the easy way out and ended the movie 30 minutes earlier when a lot of these question marks were still up in the air. But he chose to gave a conclusive ending while still leaving it open for that glimmer of hope. It's going to come in the third movie. So like, you know, we have not said anything we hadn't said already, Brad. We're both in very, very different places on this film. We've gone for almost an hour and a half. I do want to make sure that I don't get the last word here. We're going to throw over to let's make it a double, but anything else you want to get out of the way before we get to that, Brad? Oh, man, there's a lot of things that I would say, yeah, maybe we'll maybe we'll record a bonus episode sometime. Bob.

1:26:19 I I, I really just feel like at the end of the day, there are so many things in this movie that you can't undo. But like, there's no going back to a time like The Force Awakens. I walked out of the theatres and was like, yeah, OK, let's see where it goes. That that was my general take. In no way, shape or form did I walk out of the theatre going, wow, that ruined Star Wars. And and at the end of the day, man, like Star Wars fandom may be toxic in some ways, but this wasn't just Star Wars fandom.

1:27:08 Like Star Wars as an IP has been destroyed, absolutely destroyed. And it started with The Last Jedi. And I think when you look at the way Rian Johnson interacts with fans, the way he treats characters in the movie, The way he completely mocks what the movies used to be and steals from previous movies when he wants to, the the way he didn't write a cohesive script that makes any sense whatsoever for the characters. I think that there's just a lot of evidence that he wanted to tell his story over anything else, that he had his own fanboy script of what Star Wars should be as a franchise. And he threw it into the movie and he sacrificed any semblance of of the characters that established Star Wars and made it what it is.

1:28:12 Like, like, truly it in my mind, like there is a comparison to be made here between the the statue tearing down the whole incidents of back in the day. And. But he's not trying to pull down Confederate statues in the South. He's trying to go into Washington, DC and say, hey, Abraham Lincoln. Yeah. No, turns out he wasn't so great. Let's pull that statue down. Oh, the Washington Monument. Well, he owns slaves. We should probably pull that statue down too. And he literally does that with some of the most important characters in the Star Wars, the universe that made it what it is, that made it to the point where he could even have a film to make about it 40 years after the original film came out.

1:28:56 Like, like, there's so much of this movie that just rips apart Star Wars at its core, what it was all about. And now here we are 8-9 years later and Star Wars is an absolute shell of itself. They haven't even tried to make a movie since 20/18/19 when Rise of Skywalker came out and instead they've made a series of average. Like I know a lot of people like The Mandalorian, they liked Andor, but overall they've made a lot of really average to horrifically bad television shows. Agreed and and I can't help but look back to my leaving the theater from Last Jedi and being like I told you so.

1:29:45 You know this. Is the direction Disney and Kathleen Kennedy has chosen to go, and they're reaping the rewards. And I it makes me sad that this is the last thing I'll say. It makes me sad because everything Mark Hamill said in his media tour about this film was true. He wanted to be the guy who brings hope and love and joy to the quote UN quote Galaxy of Star Wars fans and that got ripped away from him by Rian Johnson. Like he literally said over and over and over, I read this script and I continually went to Ryan and said, this isn't Luke Skywalker.

1:30:28 It's it's Jake Skywalker. It's somebody that nobody would even recognize. Ryan never listened to him. And then when all the fans had the same reaction, he just got angry and, and pedantic and condescending and, and it there's so much beauty in the Star Wars world. There's so much beauty in the real world, and when it gets snuffed out by cynical people who think they're smarter than everyone else, there are few things that make me more angry. Yeah, I can tell how angry you are. And you know, it was important to me today to come in here and make sure that you felt like you were able to speak your piece.

1:31:10 And I think I'm being 100% honest with you. I feel like I didn't say enough on my end to defend the movie or or not even to defend the movie to explain the reasons why I think the movie works. I basically just said I think it works over and over. And I feel like my side of the argument was not well represented here. And so I really would like to do go for it man. I really would like to do a, a longer episode on this 'cause I think I think it's worth debating man. And this is a probably the best debate we've ever had on this podcast that didn't just evolve into US calling names or being angry with each other. But like, I, I think the movie works. I've never found it to be cynical. I in fact, I've, I find it to be to deepen the themes of the original trilogy in a way that make me appreciate the original trilogy more.

1:32:00 If it wasn't for this movie, I like, I probably wouldn't like the original trilogy as much as I do. And it's not because I think this is bad and the original trilogy is good in comparison. I think that this movie when he comes to the realization that he says I will not be the last Jedi and that it is getting passed on and they cut to Rey like fully living into I'm a freaking Jedi. I got teary eyed at the end of this movie, man, I it just it worked for me. I and I, you know what Mark Hamill is more of an expert on who Luke Skywalker should be than I will ever be. And I will say that like, obviously he played the guy. He he helped create that character. I just can't. It's one of those movies that it works so well for me that I don't get angry.

1:32:45 And I don't think anyone's wrong by not liking it. Like I, I think I've moved beyond like, oh, you didn't get it. That's not what I'm saying at all. It just does baffle me because the marks of a poorly made movie are so obvious sometimes. Like, and we both agreed, The Rise of Skywalker has all of the marks of a movie that is just ineptly made. And I think that this movie doesn't have those marks. It takes swings and it it makes controversial choices, and I will, I'll absolutely agree with that. It takes a lot of choices that people disagreed with. But to your point about it ruining Star Wars, you're right, it did ruin Star Wars. It ruined Star Wars by taking huge chances and then trusting that they were going to allow those huge chances to play out in a third movie.

1:33:37 And I think if you want to split the blame, 5050, you can put 50% of the blame on Ryan Johnson for taking huge risks and then handing it off to another guy. Whereas JJ Abrams took zero risks and handed it off to Ryan Johnson. But you also have to put 50% of the blame on the entire Disney team for for tucking their tails and turning around and trying to undo everything. Because one way or the other, I think they should have played it out. If we got a third movie that everyone hated even more than this because it went continued going down the quote UN quote Ryan Johnson path, that'd be one thing. And then they could close the chapter on like, right, we're not taking any risks anymore. But what they decided was we're not taking any risks anymore midstream in this trilogy.

1:34:22 And then you get the rise of Skywalker as a result. It's a freaking mess. And every subsequent TV show they've made has taken less and less chances. And I think that's part of why the Star Wars fan base hates it now too, is they're like, we've seen you try to take chances and we know the only reason that you're not taking chances now is because you're scared to take chances. And so I'm I'm kind of with the Star Wars fan base on this one. Like this movie did ruin Star Wars. I think it's a great movie, but I think that it it through a spotlight on how Disney is afraid of artistic expression in a way that, hey, we have to try to undo all this because we're afraid that we might lose a couple dollars on it.

1:35:06 And it has completely cratered any creativity in the Star Wars universe since then. So I'm I'm with you there, man. I just think I'm there for different reasons. Brad, we have to do let's make it a double here. So let's throw over to that our final segment of the day. Let's make it a double. We're near the end of the episodes. Oh, thanks. Listening to the film and whiskey Show. Let's favor another film with this one, even if it's struggling. It's a final segment of the day. Now let's make it a double. Let's Make It a Double is the part of the show where we pick a movie to pair up with this one to make the perfect double feature. Brad, would you like to go first or would you like me to go first? I tried to think about movies that ruined the franchise, and I don't think it's nearly you can't hit as hard as Rian Johnson did.

1:35:52 I'll say X-Men Dark Phoenix. I never got around to seeing it because I heard how bad it was. Yeah, it was pretty universally panned by everyone, so sure, go watch that with this flaming garbage heap of a movie. I'm going to pair it. I think I told you I I had the realization that I really love second chapters in a trilogy. I think it's the hardest thing to pull off. And so when I feel like they do pull it off, I I appreciate it more than the beginning or the end. So I'm gonna pair it with my favorite second chapter in a trilogy, and that's The Two Towers. I think that they both do a really good job of highlighting failure and hope. And Brad, you know, if you disagree with that, then you can still watch The Two Towers as an example of something that does it better than this movie. And then you can end on a high note for the evening. But these?

1:36:41 Those two movies being paired together in a sentence, Yeah. Final scores Who's going first? Wait. Go for it. Bob, where are you? Where are you at? I was at an 8.5 before I rewatched it because I I remember it being flawed. I still think there's a couple cutaway gags that don't necessarily work. I think that the character of Rose definitely could have used another pass. I think she is very on the nose with what she says. I still don't like the saving of Finn at the end of the movie. I think this is one of the best blockbuster films of the 21st century. It moves like gangbusters. It's thrilling, it's well, it's made by a guy who knows how to make movies. And I don't just mean in terms of scripting. I mean, like he is well versed in film and knows what he's doing.

1:37:32 Whether you like what he's doing or not. It was apparent to me that this guy is a way better director than AJJ Abrams. Watching this movie, I can't decide between a nine and a nine and a half Brad. It's one of my favorite movies of the 21st century. From a huge blockbuster standpoint. It's my favorite Star Wars movie. May not be the best one. It's my favorite one. I'm going to give it a 9 1/2 out of 10. Man, I love this movie. Here's the thing, Bob, I, I truly like went through the thought exercise and I, I was like, you know what? What if just just work with me for a second? What if you took every element of this movie and kept it exactly the same except it was set in the Star Trek universe? I did the same.

1:38:20 Thing yeah, but right, like take just take some of the aliens and make them Star Trek. The aliens, right? Like just carbon copy, but it's Star Trek. I think this is a six out of 10 movie. Like the There's just so many issues with the movie on a script level, on a visualization level. I I think the CGI is pretty terrible at points. The ways in which the characters talk to each other almost never feels real or authentic. To be frank, some of the only times it happens is when it feels like Johnson let's the older characters just be themselves.

1:39:02 Like truly one of the only great moments in this movie is where Luke is allowed to drop the I'm a grumpy old hermit that wants to die Facade and he talks to R2D2 and and it's the only time you see him be a real human being named Luke Skywalker. I think the joke that Leia makes to 3PO when she tells him to wipe that wipe that smirk off his face is like pitch perfect for what Star Wars humor should be and has been. But like there's moments where you see that maybe it could have been something, but then you have entire characters whose entire arc hold those specifically is to treat somebody else like they're a bad puppy dog that they need to scold. And and there's just so many issues with this movie that removed from the Star Wars universe. I think it's a six out of 10 because of the fact that it is in the Star Wars universe and there is so much disrespect for Star Wars as a as AIP, for everything that came before it, for everything that was ever meaningful to anybody who watched Star Wars.

1:40:18 I award this film 0 out of 10 stars. I I I will not give it a single half point Bob all. Right, Well then I'm glad I gave it a 9.5 'cause I, I knew we'd be pretty polar opposite from each other. This is, I mean by far the, the farthest we've ever been. And that includes when you didn't give a score at all to Moonrise Kingdom. So. 'Cause it had child porn in it. So we're coming to an average of a 4.75 on this movie, but we'd like to know what you think. Like, seriously, please. It's been long enough that I think people's feelings are very entrenched at this point, but it's not as incendiary. You know, there was like a really long discourse on this movie, like two years long, and then The Rise of Skywalker happened and it flamed back up again because this movie caused The Rise of Skywalker.

1:41:10 But I think the dust has settled enough that we all know what we think. And I'd like to know what those opinions are. You can find us on any of our social media accounts, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, even LinkedIn at Film Whiskey. Or you can join the conversation on Discord. We will be on there calling each other names, being as childish as you would ever hope for. If you want to join that conversation specifically, you can find the link at the end of every single one of our show notes. All right, next week we will be pivoting away from Star Wars, but we're camping out in Disneyville as we return to the MCU with 2018's Black Panther. So join us for that one next week. But until then, and signing off on the longest film and whiskey episode in history, I am Bob Book I. Didn't even think about this this this. I think our Gone with the Wind episode was like an hour and 35 minutes.

1:42:08 Yeah, dude, this is the longest one. And nailed it. I'm Brad G and. We'll see you next time. This is. The Film and Whiskey podcast, dude, we said that in such unison that I couldn't tell you we're talking for a minute.

1:42:51 That was. That's so good. That is the last bit of unison we're going to have on this episode. That's true.