Sinners (2025) / Bardstown Bourbon Company Bottled-in-Bond

0:00 In 2025, director Ryan Coogler and star Michael B Jordan gave the world a wild dive into the dark underbelly of the Jim Crow South. In 2026, we revisit one of our favorite brands with a new label. The film is sinners, the. Whiskey is Bardstown Bourbon Company bottled and bond. And we'll review them both. This is the Film and Whiskey podcast.

0:46 Welcome to the Film and Whiskey podcast, where each week we review a classic movie and a glass of whiskey. I'm Bob Book. I'm Brad Gee and I am drinking whiskey at 10:17 in the morning. Yeah, you are. Does that make me a Sinner? Does that make me a Sinner? But. It sure does. I thought you were actually going to say I'm Brad Gee and I am a Sinner. I was like, let's mean let's just get into it, man. The the Christian a a meeting. Yes, I too am a Sinner 100%. Folks, welcome into film and whiskey. If this is your first time joining us, we're excited to have you on board. As we look at between last week and this week, the 2 front runners for the upcoming Academy Awards that are coming in what, Brad? Three weeks at this point?

1:28 Is it already pretty quick? Wow man, timely. Content Yeah, 2026. Is rolling. This is also the last episode of season 10 Brad, the last regular episode. Which means after today, all we have left to do for season 10 is our bracket challenge where we take all 32 movies from season #10 we seed them into a madness style bracket and we determine what is the only film allowed to remain in existence in this fight to the death between all our movies. Now that's I guess that's the question now season one has will have an unfair advantage over all the other seasons. Like what if we what if we choose a different film from the first time around and now there's two movies from season 1.

2:15 And like, how do we philosophically deal with the ramification that we already threw these 31 other movies into the fire Inferno? We. Have to retcon a little bit. We have to find out that they actually hid in the back of the furnace all those movies and they were we rescued them just to throw some of them back in again. You know, it's, it's cruel, but it's what we do here on film and whiskey. Guys, welcome into the podcast. Let's start talking about the movie sinners, Brad. Last week we did do 1 battle after another. This week we're looking at its chief competitor for best Picture. And I think, you know, the best place to start is just to kind of set the stage with the historical context of the movie.

2:57 Sinners. This is our third Ryan Coogler movie that we've done on the podcast, We've done Creed and Black Panther. I would love for us to get around to doing Fruitvale Station someday 'cause I still think that's his best movie. And I still think that even after watching Sinners. No spoilers. Was that his? Was that his first film? I don't know if it was his first feature film, but it's the first one that like made him a prominent film maker. So I'm good for all intents and purposes. I'm going to say yes. But now he's kind of been given a blank check after all of his success with the Creed movies and the Black Panther films. And he decides, like, I'm going to write an original non IP based movie.

3:37 Warner Brothers. You're going to give me like $150 million to make this movie? Original. You're going to give me a bunch of money to make this movie. And he did. And honestly, like, it sounds like a low bar to sets. And I think this is kind of where we're at in the world of cinema today that that someone should be praised just for that. But it is exceedingly rare. Like it's it's him and it's Paul Thomas Anderson this year. And you know, you've got like your Christopher Nolan's who kind of get a blank check now. And beyond that, there's not a lot of film makers who have the cachet to just say, I'm going to write my own movie. I'm going to direct my own movie, give me a big pile of money. So Sinners is significant in 2025 just for that, Brad.

4:21 Curious in the history of film, Like, I'm thinking like 50s, seventies, 90s, like, was it common for directors to write their own films? Because that seems to be like, the cool thing nowadays is like, oh, he's really a filmmaker. He can write his own movie and direct it. And like, you know, Tarantino has done that for a long time. But is that something that's been common throughout the history? Like was was Francis writing Apocalypse Now back in the day? Or was he like working with somebody to write it? Yeah, that's actually a great example. Cause Francis Ford Coppola started as a screenwriter, won an Oscar as a screenwriter and then started directing. And yes, he wrote the Godfather movies, which were adapted, right, But and, and Apocalypse Now, which is also adapted. But Hollywood has a long history, you know, going back to, I guess you could say Charlie Chaplin, right? Wrote and directed all of his own movies. You've got in the golden age, you've got guys like Billy Wilder who are writing and directing. So there's definitely, there's something about the like, auteur experience.

5:23 Yeah, where if you've also written the movie, you're really the author of the movie 'cause it's like, no one can argue against it at that point. And, and Ryan Coogler seems to have joined those ranks now. The other thing that's historically significant about this movie is that it just broke the record for the most nominated film in the history of the Academy Awards. And it didn't just break it, it broke it by two nominations. So like, screw you. All About Eve and Titanic and La La Land, which were tied for 14 sinners has 16 nominations this year, Brad and having watched the film, which is it's a good movie, but like this is it's crazy to think that like this is the movie that got 16 nominations. Now is this is this an example of inflation like are there more categories now so that like so?

6:13 They added, yeah, they added a new category for the first time this year, which is casting, and it got the nomination for that, but they used to have for. Double cast for double casting Michael B Jordan in two roles. That's exactly what it is. But they need an Oscar. Could do a lot in this movie. They used to have two sound categories, which was really confusing. They had sound mixing and sound editing and now they're just like it's best sound. So it be like there's a new category but they took one away too so sure. OK, so things are evened out. So, so it is a true 16. It's not like now when Miles Garrett gets, you know, 24 sacks in 17 games versus 16, you know, we're, we're, we're staying, staying the same.

6:58 For sure, Brad, I think it's time for us to talk about this movie in earnest. It's a first time watch for you. It's just a second time watch for me. So I'm excited to kind of parse out our thoughts on this one. But in order to do that, we have to get into our first segment of the day, which we call, Brad explains. Brad's going to give us the movie plots with only 60 seconds sticking on the clock, so let's go ahead and do your take with this little segment that we call, Brad explains. Brad Explains is the part of the show where Brad breaks down the plot of the movie that he has just seen often for the first time. Now Brad, you did not get caught up in the IMAX multi format hype of this movie.

7:38 And can I quick aside, I'm so sick of this like we shot this on 70 millimetre. We shot this on IMAX and so you have to see it in IMAX or on 70 or you can drive 8 hours in IMAX and 70. It's like does your movie hold up at my local movie Plex? Because if it doesn't then like I don't care about seeing it in iPad. Yeah, but Bob, you're not, you're not a real cinephile if you don't drive 8 hours to see it in New York City. Like, come on, you, you don't. You don't deserve to be at the the highest echelons of movie critiques. I mean, this is this is a fact. This is a given, Brad. So there's my there's my rant for the day.

8:19 Stop doing this stupid premium format thing where you have to see it 8 different times to get the full experience. Brad, you saw it in what I'm sure Ryan Coogler would love HBO Max format on probably. Amazon screen Amazon prime streaming on Amazon prime right now so before we do Brad explains you can go watch it on Amazon prime because I know all of that's. Right, because fun fact about Brad explains he's going to spoil the entire movie here. So if you have not seen Sinners, I would recommend hitting pause here and going and watching this film. It's a little long, like 2 hours and 20 minutes ish. Not quite as long as one battle after another, but it does not approach the 90 minute film mark that we so dearly love.

9:02 Brad, go watch Sinners come back and listen to Brad explain and spoil this movie. Brad, you get 60 seconds and go. Sinners is a film that follows a set of twins as they seek to open open up a Juke joint in the Jim Crow 1930s Mississippi region. They returned to the town that they grew up in after spending a lifetime up in Chicago as gangsters, supposedly working with Al Capone. They come back and buy a old gristmill from somebody who's totally not a part of the Klan. Definitely not a part of the Klan. Bob, the Klan's over, didn't you hear? And they go about the town.

9:48 They buy groceries, they talk to old flames, they have sex. It's a great time everybody's having. Fun with their old flames. Sorry with their old. Yes, not. Not with each other. It's not that kind of movie. Important distinction. And then vampires happen and and vampires try to get into the building, but they can't because they're not invited. And then, and then one of the persons inside invites them in and there's death and everybody's dying and it's slow motion and, and the the preacher boy is playing guitar and he stabs the guy in the head with it and, and and it's bad and it's wild and sinners cause 'cause sin.

10:36 Yeah, Brad, there's a lot of directions we can go. I think that like, let's start with the most kind of innocuous one, which is vampire movies. We've, I don't think we've ever done a vampire movie on this podcast, which is crazy. Like we have not done any adaptations of Dracula or anything related. Like this is our first vampire movie. We should probably review Twilight. Yeah. I mean, obviously, yeah, that should have come up on our box office year. That's what. We probably just related it. I think we did actually. He probably did. First vampire movie. I freaking love a good vampire movie because there is something like, there's something so inherently like cheesy about vampire movies. But if you do them well, and I think this movie does it, there's a level of kind of sensual, sexual, psychosexual nature with that.

11:32 Like, you gotta bite the neck. Like there's a very intimate area to get bitten on. And I think that you can have a sexy vampire movie and it can be fun. You're not gonna have like a sexy Frankenstein movie, You know what I mean? Like this, it's just not gonna happen. He's literally stitched. Together from multiple corpses, it's. Just, yeah, Not the smell alone, not not as sexy. So I think that there's something about a vampire movie that even if it is intending to terrify you, it's there's a layer of fun to it. And I think that this movie, whatever else we might say about it throughout the course of the episode here, understands that vampire movies are supposed to be fun and entertaining, and it's definitely going for that.

12:16 We just like, go through all the other horror tropes and be like, sexy or not like zombies. Probably not sexy. Goes demons. Yeah, demons. Really sexy. Night. Well, but you got succubus, right? You got some sexy, sexy humans out there. Mummies not sexy at all. Not sexy at all. Ghosts could be. You could have some pretty sexy. Oh, so you got Patrick Swayze? There's right. Yeah, you could. And there's the element of surprise involved. You never know. Like werewolves. It depends on your preference for hair, I guess. Right. Sure. Like. Yeah, yeah, you might be into that kind of thing. Body horror. Probably not.

12:57 Not into that so much. No. Yeah. OK, Brad, Sinners is a vampire movie. Vampire movies are fun. I would love to hear your feedback on that. And apparently sexy. They are kind of sexy. You don't think that there's an element of sexual tension going on with vampires? I am. Sure that I know for a fact that that would turn on a lot of people. I do not personally find there to be anything sexual. I'm not saying are you personally turned on by vampires. I'm just saying that like there's a seductive nature to like how a vampire goes about its prey.

13:39 Like you got to get them in close quarters, you got to get the neck. Like it's it's way different than just like a werewolf jumps on you and eats you. Sure. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. You have to be invited in to be consumed. Yeah. Yeah, you do. This is off the rails already. OK, that was supposed to be my innocuous point. Do you or do you not find vampire movies to be fun? I guess is the question I'm trying to ask you here. I have not seen a lot of vampire movies. I have seen all the Twilight movies. I made my friend group in Kentucky sit out like, like, all right, this is more of a story than I thought it would be. I was talking about Buddy Steven.

14:20 And we were like, yeah, we read the Twilights, but we never watched the movies, and we're always just curious how bad they were. So we made our entire friend group watch all the Twilights, and we drank a lot. Sorry, we didn't drink in the housing development where you weren't allowed to drink. And we definitely had an absolute blast as a friend group watching all four Twilight movies. Those might be the only Twilight they're vampire movies I've ever seen. I really don't know if I've seen any other vampire movies. So we're starting off strong here with Sinners because I will say, no matter what happens, Sinners is better than all those Twilight movies. So there you go.

15:04 Better than Twilight. I'll I'll give Twilight one shout out. Bob, the scene when Bella is depressed and the camera just circles her and the windows change season each time it like shows the windows is an incredible shot and a great encapsulation of depression. So you know, they did that perfectly. Whatever you say, man. All right, sinners. All right, so sinners vampire movies. I am not a classically, I don't like horror films. Bob not interested. I don't mind like psychological horror. I enjoy a good Vertigo like I I can get down with some of those. I don't enjoy just like visceral, like I'm just going to kill things to kill things and like Saw type of things that like I just have no interest in those types of movies. I think sinners kind of falls somewhere in the middle of all that.

16:05 Like it's very clearly a character drama. You, you have these two twins, both played by Michael B Jordan, that are coming back to the Bayou and they're trying to reconnect with old friends, old flames. And I think that the first 40 minutes of this movie I really loved. And I have to tell you, Bob, I, I watched this movie in two segments and I think it was the most perfect two segments that you can imagine. I watched it was like literally 41 minutes of the movie and it was getting late and I was tired and I was sick and I was like, I need to get some sleep. And so I hit pause right as the two Chinese grocers are driving the goods to the Juke joint.

16:53 And then it cuts and it's just a farm field. And I was like, ah, this seems like a good place to pause. So I hit pause and I, I literally walked away being like, man, I thought, but I've read somewhere that this movie is about vampires and clearly it's just like a black drama about like trying to reclaim their heritage and and reintegrate into a society they were once were a part of. And like this is I was really enjoying it. I hit play like 2-3 days later last night and immediately this dude jumps from behind the camera and he's like he he, he looks like he has burns. You realize later that he's melting and he goes in and gets entrance and is eating the husband. And I'm like, oh, this.

17:40 And like the rest of the movie was the wildest ride I think I've ever been on. So it was. It was a pretty crazy experience watching this movie. I don't think you could have split that up any better, Brad. And it also gets to like the core question that we're going to have to tackle here today, which is the big criticism that I've seen from people who didn't like this movie was that it just doesn't work with all the layers it's trying to layer on top of each other, that there is this kind of like really moving character drama happening that sets up for this really fun somewhat can't be horror movie. And can those two things either live in tension with each other or cohere or neither?

18:27 And I think that like, that's kind of what we have to tackle here today, Brad, because I still don't know where I stand on it. I think ultimately I am positive on this movie. It was a fun movie. I liked it a lot. There's obvious care and craft going into like every aspect of this movie. And it shows in how many Oscar nominations it's gotten. I still don't know if it totally holds together or works as a movie. And I and yet I like it. And I think that that's kind of like there's, there's my, my opening thesis statement here and I'm ready to interrogate that with you because I don't really know how to approach it beyond that. And. I, I think we're going to occasionally throughout this episode, like compare and contrast it to 1 battle after another, because those are the 2 that are fighting for the Oscar.

19:15 They're the two movies we just reviewed. I think I like this movie doesn't have quite the technical craft that one battle after another has. Like I, I think PTA is just a better director. He's a, he's more mature, he's been around for a long time and he's been kind of that auteur for a long time. I, I think it's a better movie craft wise. I found myself at times throughout this being like, man, like is that ACGI train or not? And I'm like, I'm pretty sure that's ACGI train coming in And it, it reminded me of like, I have a buddy that I'll occasionally like will stream anime and watch it together. And then anime hand drawn stuff is like 70% of the anime, but it's just so much cheaper to do CGI that whenever there's like fast moving objects, they're usually CGI. And so he and I will be like CGI horse CGI clock and like we call it out.

20:13 And I felt like watching this movie. I'm like CGI trained CGI. Cigarette going between the two Michael B Jordans like it. It felt fake at certain points and I I did not enjoy that. I think that the color in this movie is either really bright washed out or really dark. Hard to see anything. Yes. So I'm like I'll I just I think what I'm trying to do is get a get a few of my critiques out of the way to be like the craft of this movie isn't as sharp as one battle after another. You don't get an incredible like heat making the pavement kind of glimmer as the car chases out. Like you're not getting that in this movie. What you are getting is like some wild action and some interesting character relationships and some really great music and like dude, when the when the Irish dude was like leading them all in a little Riverdance and he's doing his little thing, it's incredible.

21:18 Like stunningly good. So I, I think this movie just is weird. Am I allowed to say that? It is such a weird movie and I'm here for it. It it will stick in my mind longer than one battle after another will. I think that's a good, that's a good place to start then. And I want to kind of break down the narrative structure of the movie. And you did a really good job of that. And Brad explains. But like, you know, in broad strokes, these two guys who are sinners, they buy this Juke joint. They buy this old mill off of the clan to start their Juke joint.

21:59 And when the sun goes down, you would think the clan's going to come and kill them all. But instead of the clan, it's vampires. And then at the end of the movie, you get this kind of tacked on ending where the clan actually does come. And it's kind of like a, you know, whatever. But there is a world where Ryan Coogler makes this movie, and it is a straight drama where the black folk inside of the Juke joint have to defend themselves against an attack by the Ku Klux Klan. And you could make it just as cheesy and corny in ways you know that you could portray the clan as like the biggest idiots in the world. It could be very close to what you had with the the Clan ride in Django Unchained I think.

22:42 Who the hell sold these hoods this way? Yeah. Exactly. And I think that that movie works, right? Yes. So there has to be a reason that he decides I don't want it to be the clan. I want it to be vampires, which can function as a metaphor for the clan or a metaphor for, you know, white America or whatever you would have it to be. What I would like to figure out, Brad, there's there's a couple questions we can answer. One, does this work as well or better if there's just no vampire element to the movie? And then B, let's parse out what we think the vampires actually represent, because I think that the metaphor gets kind of muddled at multiple points throughout the movie. I I struggle to keep up with that. So I guess the first question then, well, I don't want to take the vampire stuff out of this movie because it's fun as hell. Like I, I don't, I don't want to watch the non vampire version, but I do wonder, like, does it cohere more if it's not vampires and it's just like some racist white clan group? Yeah.

23:46 I mean it makes for a simpler movie right? Like 2 black men go into the white N quote UN quote and operate as gangsters and you know they make it clear that they stole. A large amount. Of liquor from both sides of the white tribalism and then peace out so that they get angry at each other. So they they played the white man and now they're coming back down to their cultural heritage to where they grew up, and now they have to fight the overtly racist white man who's trying to kill them. That's a very straightforward, basic plot that I, I think would have played well in today's culture. I think it would have made for an interesting film. I think if you do that, then you have to develop the Klansman villain much more like the, the main guy that they buy the, they buy the gristmill from.

24:42 Like you have to develop him and make him into more of a less cartoony and more serious hopefully. It makes for an interesting. Movie. I don't know. I don't know. Maybe it does make for a Oscar nominated film. It probably would that. Sounds like an Oscar movie. I think it does for a less interesting movie, though. Like ultimately I I like that he's trying for something here in meshing these two formats together. And I also like that there's like the the historical drama stuff is it doesn't feel Oscar Beatty to me. It's not people like overacting. It feels very lived in this entire world that they've built when they're like driving down the dirt road and Delroy Lindo is talking about what happened with him and his partner that he used to go around with.

25:29 And like, that's a it's a harrowing story. And I think that they create this world that feels very true. And also Ryan Coogler's like, but I love 80s and 90s campy slasher horror movies, and I want to get an element of that in there, too. And so that vampire thing becomes the bridge in we have to find a way to make these vampires be a metaphor for something. And you know, Brad, we've got 10 minutes here before we go to break. Let's let's try to figure out like, what do the vampires actually represent? Because they're clearly drawn to the mill, the Juke joint by the playing of Preacher Boy, who's kind of our main protagonist, Michael B Jordan's the lead. But like, the movie's about Preacher Boy and he's trying to break free from his for his oppressive dad, who is a a a preacher and he has a huge talent for playing the Blues. And you get this scene where at the beginning of the movie they walk you through this idea that like people who who can play music well are channeling something and are a conduit to like spirits both past and future. And when Sammy plays the Blues, it conjures spirits of their ancestors and their descendants.

26:48 It's a really cool shot where you get hip hop people and also like African tribes represented as spirits in the room. And then you get this visual metaphor of like they've burned down the place with their music, I guess. And then the vampires show up. We've also called the vampires to us and the vampires whole thing is yes, we will like bite and kill all these people 'cause we need to eat. But we want Sammy, we want Sammy's gifts to be subsumed into what we do. And there's one lead vampire and I think it was Remic right? And I'll say it's like a. Weird Borg like sci-fi type of thing where they're not just vampire like traditional vampires are just normal people that live forever and have to drink human blood, right.

27:35 These are like a mind net, like all their brains and experiences. And like once I once I turn Bob into a vampire, I have every memory that Bob has like that. Like that's a very clear departure from the classic vampire troupe. Yeah. And you know what? That's. Actually, let me stop explaining the movie here and let's talk about like I'm not usually a big lore guy. I don't care about fantasy film. I don't care. You need 10 more minutes on on. Remic's background no. I just need to. Understand like what these vampires are like, it's just throughout the movie, they're just kind of like you, you get Michael B Jordan's, well, one of the Michael B Jordan's wife, the one that does kind of like the the hoodoo. That's like, hey, these aren't haints, they're vampires. And I know that now and here's the rules that I know about vampires.

28:27 But then like they're doing other stuff beyond that, You know, sometimes they look demonic and they have long fingers and sometimes they can hide all their like their baits and everything else and pass as just regular people. There's really no explanation at any point except for like a few throwaway lines, like you said, where someone just randomly says like, yeah, once I bite them, I have all their memories and we all know the songs now and we all do this. So it it's never quite explained, and some of it can be inferred, but then some of it just ends up being confusing, Yeah. And, and I think I, I actually don't mind that too much. For me, it, it was an interesting evolution of the vampire genre that I clearly have seen so much of. But to take like, you know, 'cause for me and like fantasy, there is this trope of like plant based hive minds where like once the spores infect you, you are now a part of the hive mind and you have all their memories and they have all yours.

29:31 And the goal of the hive mind is to subsume all consciousness within itself. Like that. Like that says somewhat I get it was in Halo 2 for Pete's sake. Like that there's this this reality in media that has been around for a long time. And so to pair that with vampires to be like not. Only do we suck. Your blood, but we also like turn you into this hive mind. I think that's the key to unlocking what the vampires represent. And I think a lot of people have realized this is to say that whatever whiteness is, it has turned into a hive mind and it's trying to subsume black culture.

30:15 And that seems to be what Coogler is trying to say with this now, I like he kind of muddies the waters a little bit because when Sammy is about to be eaten by the the lead Irish vampire, he starts, he returns to his roots. He goes, you know, our father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. And the Irish vampire goes, I remember my father saying the same words. They bring me comfort sometimes too. But he but he talks about like those Christians came and conquered our land too. And so it's like this like. Weird. OK, Are we an anti Christian film now where we're saying that like Christianity is what has turned white culture into this monolithic subsuming Borgian death ball like that has? Subsumed.

31:11 White culture into it and now white culture is now subsuming black culture into this Christian thing. Like, I don't, I don't know, is that, is that what he's trying to say with that scene 'cause that seems pretty key to the my my. My major problems with the movie is that the metaphor works on like the first 2 levels down, but it doesn't work when you get deeper down than that. And not really not really good, right? A really good allegory or metaphor will work like continuously the further down you get as you take that metaphor to its logical extremes. And I think that ultimately what the vampires represent is that they are juxtaposed to the clan, which is like, if you're a black person in the South, there is this like, existential threat to your existence in the clan that is like, they want to kill and eradicate you. But there's also this kind of more sinister threat, existential threat to black culture, which is that like Martin Luther King called it something like he talked about the the moderate a lot in the letter from Birmingham Jail and how the moderate is like the most dangerous thing to advancing the cause of of black freedom in America. And I think that Coogler's kind of getting at that a little bit where?

32:27 Taking what? Makes a culture unique and subsuming it into this monolith, but then not allowing it to continue to have its uniqueness that it just kind of gets diluted down into the shared experience where nobody has any uniqueness to them anymore is another kind of existential threat to the black experience in America. And what I do really like about what Coogler is doing is that he doesn't he doesn't make it the sort of simplistic like white people bad movie because he makes the vampire, the main vampire, an Irish guy and says like this happened to me too. And I think what he's trying to say is, like, this has happened throughout history where the like the ruling culture, the oppressors, the conquerors have diluted down and subsumed the parts of a culture that they like for themselves.

33:21 But that ultimately all that does is take away everybody else's uniqueness. And that there is something to being able to say like this thing is ours and it makes us unique and we can share these gifts to you, but not necessarily with you. And again, I think that's the argument that he's trying to make here. Whether or not that argument is told or conveyed 100% accurately, I think that's what's what I'm still struggling with here. And that's the. Danger of making it a fun vampire movie like I like. For better or for worse, there's going to be a level of depth that you miss out on by making it a cool, violent horror.

34:06 Horror light I would call. It vampire movie. I do I'm. Curious your thoughts. Like I I've really. This movies made me think a lot and I I I in my in my research for two facts and a falsehood, I was reading about how the woman who plays the wife of the grocer I. I don't remember her. Name right now was talking about how they specifically did research on the Chinese history in the Bayou in southern Mississippi and how once slavery was eradicated, the the slave owners, the former slave owners hired a bunch of Chinese labor because it was super cheap. And they were like, well, you know, we can pay these black people.

34:57 And they did. And they brought in Chinese labor to who could pay them dirt cheap and they could still, you know, maintain their profits, blah blah blah. The Chinese. Started working there and the the labor was hard, the wages were high were low. They weren't making any money. And there's this history that they're proud of that this this woman specifically talked about how her ancestors in the Southern Bayou opened up grocery stores and they started entrepreneurial endeavors and they like got out of the cotton fields. So I think my question is. Why?

35:37 Why don't we look at things like what they they were celebrating? Like Chinese people figured out how to deal with the bullshit they were being dealt with and the smoke sack twins figured out a way to deal with the bullshit and they went up and they were, they were sinners up in the north with white people. And then they came back. I, it just all feels muddled to me. And I, as I say all this, I don't even know if I have a question. Makes sense of it for the Bob. Well, Brad as the resident. Expert on race in America? Yeah. No, honestly, like I, I. Have no answer for you beyond like, I think 2 things are probably happening here. 1 is that we've already established the metaphor gets a little muddled sometimes. And like the Chinese characters in this movie are very interesting because they are they're included as kind of this marginalized group and accepted by the black people in that area.

36:32 But you're right, they also seem to have some level of upward mobility afforded to them that the black people in this movie don't. And I don't know enough about the workings of the South at this time to say, like, is that historically accurate? Are there reasons that that would be the case? Or is this just like, maybe the script needed another pass to tighten up these characters and the loose ends and the questions that we have about them? But yeah, I'm, I'm with you in that like there is there are metaphors and arguments being made about race in America. And I think more specifically about like being a black creative in America. Like preacher boy is Ryan Coogler talking about Ryan Coogler, right?

37:13 Like, sure, I am a creative person and I have this gift and I feel tied down to a, to maybe the black church, right? Like this thing that like I feel like is keeping me from expressing myself fully. So I need to feel like I need to run away from that which he is set like. I just want to make sure I'm not wrong on this because I'm open to being wrong he's. Saying that the black. Church is essentially white America forcing a level of see that's the question is like. The only evidence we really have of that is what Remix says about white people force Christianity on us. And I think that like, yes, there is a large segment of black America that also to this day will say, like, Christianity is a white person's religion that was forced upon us. I don't necessarily know if if we're supposed to carry what Remic says back to the church where his dad has been oppressive to him.

38:07 Because there's also like at the beginning of the movie, the smokestack twins are asking him, is your dad still beating you essentially? And he's like, oh, no, no, no, no. And then they start telling the story about how they killed their dad. And they say the exact same thing that preacher boy said of like, no, he only he only did it rarely or if he if he meant to, you know, So I don't know if he's fleeing the oppressiveness and restrictiveness of religion because he just can't express himself there. I don't know if it's a rejection of what he sees as like white culture. I don't know if it's just a rejection of his father. And again, that's like, you could see that as a really brilliant way of leaving the metaphor unanswered, or you could see it as kind of like this script needs another pass in the draft phase. And I kind of fall a little bit more in that second camp. Yeah.

38:54 Well, and I. I would too because I like, I also know that I've read the Bible a lot and you know, when I read Jesus in the disinherited, I understand that the message portrayed by the white preachers was a evil misinterpretation for gain of the white slave owners. Like, yeah, they were using this the Bible for their personal gain. That's not good. And the black preachers understood what was actually going on in scripture, which was saying like, if you are a human being, you were made in the image of God and if you were made in the image of God, you have incalculable value. And so that I think that's the part for me that I struggle with this movie where I'm like, to me it feels more like an anti Christian, like Christianity has subsumed all these things and is now trying to subsume black culture. And I'm like, I don't know if that reflects historical reality the way Coogler thinks it might have. And, and once again, this is me in my opinion, but I, I, I, I don't know.

40:07 I don't want to just let me categorize. It as my opinion. Before we go to break. I think that the theology of this movie is the weakest link of it or the weakest element of it because, you know, the movie is called sinners. And I've been trying to figure out like, why, why are we calling this movie sinners, Right. And you get Delroy Lindo at at one point saying like, hey, for a Sinner like me, that's that's more than enough, right? It's it's established that all these people are sinners. At the beginning of the movie, you have preacher boy's dad as he's leaving the church, tell him like, hey, if you keep dancing with the devil at one day, he's gonna come find you. Basically. Yeah. And it's understood that the the places where you would have to go to play Blues music are places of sin. Simultaneous to that.

40:57 It is the place where they are allowed to have their freest expression of themselves, to not be under the thumb of somebody working in the sun all day, to dance, to have fun. So there is this element of like to go in the backroom. And get a little Mickey. I'll, I'll get back to that. There's this element of like actual pure release and goodness there, but preacher boy's dad's not entirely wrong. Like on his very first night in a Juke joint, preacher boy's like, I'm going to have sex with a married woman. Like everyone's having sex with everybody in here. There's a. Load of dice and then slashing somebody there's. Gambling, there's violence, there's murder, there's like all of these things are actually happening. And so there is an element where his his rejection at the end of the movie, where his dad is like, leave this behind you, you have seen what this brings upon you come back to God and his rejection of that.

41:56 What is the point that we're ultimately trying to make? Is it that like people need to be allowed to be sinners? Is it that sin is OK? Like, and I'm just, I'm not even talking about the the central metaphor of race anymore. I'm talking about like theologically. And I think that this this movie kind of butts up against theology and the black experience of, of church in America, but it doesn't actually grapple with the issues of what is sin? Is sin part of this white monolithic system of Christianity? And we actually reject the notion of sin because I've shown now that the music channels my ancestors and all the things that come with the music, like the sex and everything else, is actually good because it's a pure expression of how I really feel. Maybe that is the argument he's trying to make. I don't want to foist that upon the movie if it's not what he's trying to say.

42:55 But what I'm ultimately saying is like, it's too muddied of a metaphor for me to understand what we're actually arguing here at the end of the day. Yeah. The. The waters. Are so muddled and muddy that I I don't quite know what's happening and then you add on the coda to the movie, which completely like they they sit down together and they just have a drink and they're like, yeah, that was the night we were all the most alive is the night that, you know, sorry. At the very end of the film, after some of the credits have rolled, you. Go back to. 1992 or 3 and Preacher Boy is in his 90s and he's playing at A at a jazz joint in Chicago and a, a barkeep come there, a bouncer comes to him and says, hey, I know we're closed, but these two people said they'll give us 400 bucks if they can let us in.

43:51 And he goes, yeah, let them in. And then he goes, I I just invited vampires in. And sure enough, Michael B Jordan and Hailee Steinfeld come in and they're like, yeah, we promised we wouldn't, you know, come after you. And so now you're almost dead. You want to join us? But they they have this conversation about like, that was the night we were most alive. And it's like that's that's the one night you were most alive. It wasn't like, I think that's the part that's hard for me is like a night where you played Blues music, you slept with a married woman and you almost got eaten by by vampires. Like, yes, that is an exhilarating evening, no doubt.

44:32 That sounds like a hell of a time. However, I feel like getting married, having kids, watching your kids get married, having grandkids, like I feel like there's other things that would have happened in preacher boy's life. That would have been like. Yeah, that was an exhilarating night. These were more meaningful nights of my life. Contrary my friend, this. Is this is the Rose Dawson Titanic situation where that woman died and she did not go to be with her husband and children. She went to be with Leonardo DiCaprio. She's like, man, I remember. That DI got from Leo.

45:13 That's. Right. And on that note, Brad, it's time for us to drink some whiskey. What do you say we try this Bardstown Bourbon Company bottle? The bond. All. Right today we. Are checking out Bardstown bourbon companies bottled in bond bourbon now this was actually released as part of a series that they did a couple years ago Brad and we we actually reviewed that whole series as Bardstown tried to kind of expand the price ranges of their various offerings and so they've relabeled it now I can't remember what that series was called it was like not. Origins Explore It was the. Origin series, that's what it was 'cause I was thinking Fusion and Discovery.

46:00 But so anyway, Brad is showing the bottle now. They have rebranded and gotten brand new labels, new fonts, new label. Like everything on the bottle is completely different than it used to. You know what those labels are, Bob? They're double C thick. Yeah, they are. Thick labels, baby. And because of that, they've done away with the origin series and they've just kind of started offering this as their baseline bottled and bond. So what I'm saying ultimately is I think we've reviewed this once before, Brad, but it's now being called a completely different thing and I think we need to re review it. Now. The stats on this are that this is a six year bourbon that was produced by I I don't even want to say produced. It was distilled and produced by Bardstown Bourbon Company. The mash bill on this is, is that like directed and? Is that like directed and written by? Well, do you?

46:53 Remember. Why don't we enlighten the people when it says that something is produced by, It means that they did not distill it. Yeah, it means that it's sourced bourbon. So I, I want to be very specific. I don't want to get a letter from Bardstown Bourbon Company. 68% corn, 20% wheat, 12% malted barley. So it is a weeded bottled and bond bourbon. I'm excited to dive into this. I will say just before we dive in, I should make note some very concerning news about Bardstown Bourbon Company came out in the past week or so, the timing of which is not ideal for this review. You know we know a lot of people down at Bardstown. I have no idea what goes on behind the scenes at any company that we review. We will see what plays out with this news story. But I felt like, Brad, we should at least acknowledge the fact that they are probably the biggest news story in the world of whiskey this week, and not for good reasons. So we're approaching this review, like I said, not at an ideal time, Brad.

47:53 Yeah, and I, I. Will say our experience has primarily been with Dan Callaway like. We we have. Had such great experiences with him. Bardstown has always treated us well. We don't know everything that. Happened. We're not there 24/7. We are going to drink their whiskey. It feels, it feels kind of like a Kevin Spacey situation, Bob. It's like I'm I'm I've got to watch American Beauty. I'm not going to condone who Kevin Spacey is, right? I mean. Listen, our job here is to review some whiskey. This is whiskey on shelves that people can buy. And I'm here to tell you whether or not that whiskey is good. I am not here to endorse or to defend or to convict anybody. There's a legal situation playing out that's going to play out completely outside the bounds of this podcast. Brad, let's dive into the review of the whiskey itself have. You tried this already?

48:49 'Cause I'm trying it live, I have. Tried it and I don't know if it says anything to you Bob, but I'm still drinking it live. I really like the nose on this. Brad, it this is much more of a classic weeded bourbon nose. You know, the Green River weeded that we had last week. I don't. Actually know if that was. Distilled on site at Green River or if it would have been distilled at Bardstown. But you can tell that like even though these are sister companies making weeded bourbon together, this just has a much more classic well-rounded. I get a lot more like caramel corn on this. The corn is really prominent, but in a really nice way. I think we're on to a good start here. Yeah, 100% dude. I'm going to give it a 7.5 on the nose. Dude, I'm at a. 7.5 I actually weirdly don't think this is a very weeded experience 'cause I don't get any cherry. For me this is like cornflakes, corn pops, vanilla, caramel, a little bit of brown sugar on the nose. It's a 7.5, but like a 7.5 with a promise for more. I think when I get into the pallets, there is caramel, there's brown sugar.

49:58 It reminds me of like a salted butter. It's got like a little bit of a salt, a little bit of a fattiness to it. And then the the more I drink of it, the more it reminded me of like there's no specific fruit I can think of, but it's almost like a sugary Fruity pebbles kind of experience. I like this isn't transcendent, but it's a really good fun experience that I give an 8 out of 10 to on the palate, I think I'm. Going to stick of A7. .5 on the palate it's a lot spicier and more prickly and more alcohol forward than I was expecting, so nothing that I just. Said no, I really like it it.

50:39 Attacked my tongue like it's, yeah, very prickly on the palate. I got a lot of green apple on the very front of the palate and I did, I got some of those kind of like generically sweet notes throughout the pallet towards the back. It gets a little bit bitter and, and I don't even want to say herbal. It's not quite herbal as much as it's just kind of like a sour wood note towards the back for me. We've been getting this a lot lately, Brad. I don't know what it is about these kind of like 5 to 7 year bourbons that we've been getting the last year or two where they all have this note of like that toasted barrel finish in ways that stuff we drank 4-5 years ago just didn't have those notes. It seems like I.

51:21 Don't know, maybe it's. Just my, my taste buds are changing, but it seems like the stuff that was in that five to seven-year range a couple years ago was much more like syrupy and viscous and decadent than what we're getting out of a lot of these distilleries now. This is still good, but I'm going to give it a 7.5 and then on the finish, I'll give it a 7. I'll give it a 7.5 again, like it's, it's fine. It is very pleasant. It's not super long lasting, but I do get a nice like chest hug on the way down. I'm curious to hear what you think of the finish, Brad. Let me guess. Here your balance score, Bob. Is it going to be a 7.5? I actually.

52:03 Think the finish is where this shines. Like 7.5 at the at the start, 8 for the taste. I think this is an 8.5 on the finish for me. The salted butter fattiness comes through really strong at the end. The brown sugar sticks around and it leaves a really nice vanilla flavor that lasts a long time for me. You said that like. We have been getting this bitter note on five to seven. That has been true on other ones. Not on this one. For me, I I really like this experience a lot. I think I'll go ahead and get my balance score. I think this is an 8 out of 10 on balance, like I think it's very straightforward.

52:44 It is very bourbon, you know, neutral like it's it's just a bourbon. It does all the flavors really well. It gives a little bit of complexity, but not much. It's a really nice bottled and bought experience that, you know, for a six year bourbon. I'm I'm enjoying. All right, I'll, I'll give. It an 8 out of 10 on balance. Just to throw you off, I. Should give it a 7 point. 5 just to spite me. Feel a little spicy here? And that takes us to value. Now Brad, what would a bottle of this cost? Actually, I don't even know. Are they carrying this in Ohio yet? So I. I'm finding like the old labeled version of bottle and bond.

53:28 I'm assuming that the price is staying the same. If that's the case, this is a $50 MSRP which I think you know to jump into my value score. I think that's a really good price for AI. Don't. Know if I want to call? Bardstown, a luxury company, but a lot of their whiskey kind of falls in that upper tier whiskey. So for them to offer something like this at $50, that's a really good bottled and bond price that I would say offers a really beautiful experience of a classic bourbon. So I like, I'm actually going to give this a nine out of 10, I think $50.00 for a Bardstown product that is giving you a really good bourbon experience at the bottled and bond regulated level.

54:20 I think that's a really good value, Bob. I agree. And like it's listed on their website right now and it's still at 4999. They are ironically using the old label on the website, so it is kind of confusing. Listen, for 50 bucks, I'm kind of right where I was with the Green River. I think this is better than the Green River. I like this a little bit more. I like this a lot. Put it up. Against. Like a a wild Turkey rare breed, like that's just 10 times better than this for me at a similar price. So I'm just going to give it a 7 out of 10 on the value and that takes me to a 37.5 out of 50. Brad, where you falling on this one? I'm at a 40.

55:01 One out of fifty. Wow, yeah, I want. I really like. This I I think that. Even though it's a. Weeded bourbon and I I might want to experience more cherry notes out of this. I think that this is a. Really great classic bourbon experience that reminds me of like a Woodford Double Oaked. Like Woodford Double Oak is a little more of a butter bomb, but it feels similar in that like it's a classic bourbon experience notched up a few points and I, I, I really like this one a lot. All right, that's taking us to. A 78.5 out of 100 or a 39.25 out of 50.

55:43 So just shy of that 40 mark, I'm going to give it a hesitant thumbs up. It sounds like Brad is pretty solidly in thumbs up territory here. I am 100. Percent in thumbs up territory if you know you like bourbon and you you enjoy a slightly less spicy experience. I I'm thinking of like my one buddy Jim who like if. It was a one. Percent rye. He could taste the rye and he would hate it. If you're Jim, you would like this experience. I'm I'm going to give him some of it all. Right. Well, Jim? Enjoy the whiskey from Brad. I think it's time for us to get back into talking about sinners. What do you say? Let's get?

56:24 To it All right everybody that was Bardstown bottled and bond and I will say Bob, I feel like normally with Bardstown it's like a it's like an 8 word sentence like that's all it is it's just Bardstown bottled and bond and I props to them man. I think they're continuing their legacy of making great whiskeys, whether or not, and this is the big question all the time, can a distillery that sources their whiskey for a while and makes a name for themself continue the quality of the product once they make their own stuff? Brad Sounds doing it.

57:09 They're they're nailing it. The end. All right man, it's time for me to try to finally redeem myself this season with our game, which we call 2 facts and a falsehood. Brad is going to try to stump you. Ball 2. You are right and what is wrong? 2 facts and a falsehood. 2 facts and a falsehood. Is the part of the show where Brad presents me with three items as fact about the making of this movie, one of which is a complete lie. Now, Brad, I'm going to be honest with you. I said I was going to tally up how I was doing this season. I did not do that, nor do I care to. I'm going to assume that I am one win away from a winning season and I'm going to secure it today. Hey, that's that's the.

57:58 Every every week is a new season kind of vibe from the head coach of the Cleveland Browns. I was just going to say. That's a very Cleveland Browns coded message. You know Bob, I'll. I'll do this for you as a gift, a gift to you. I will go back and listen to every episode from the season and just skip to the 2 facts and a falsehood and I will tally the wins and losses for you so you don't have to lose yourself losing week after week. Thank you SO. Much, Brad. Now I'm going to continue thinking that this is for a winning season. Here, hit me with those two facts and a falsehood fact number. One director, Ryan Coogler, says that he had the American heavy metal band Metallica on his mind when he was laying out the stories, rhythm and beats. Quote.

58:47 I wanted the movie to have the simplicity and simultaneously the profound nature of a delta Blues song, but I wanted it to have the contrast, variation and inevitability of great Metallica song like 1, he says. Fact #2. Director Ryan Coogler decided to shoot the film in 65mm IMAX after watching Oppenheimer in theaters a year earlier, citing the crispness of the movement as a primary motivating factor. Fact #3. Director Ryan Coogler revealed that the film was inspired by his late uncle James, who lived in Mississippi, where the film was set during the 1930s.

59:31 His uncle died while he was making Creed in 2015, leaving him with several memories of his Mississippi upbringing that helped him craft the story, including his Uncle James love for the type of Blues Blues music that featured prominently in the film. Man I don't know #1 sounds the most. I almost say the most plausible. I think #1 sounds true. Two and three. I think I could just kind of, they're kind of a coin flip. Right now I am. Targeting #3 Just because of the ages of everybody. I know you said great uncle and not just uncle, but I'm going to say number, I said late.

1:00:18 Late Uncle. Oh, that's even worse. Then how old was this Uncle? I'm going to say 3 is the falsehood, Brad. And I have really no basis for that other than I just think that the 1930s were a longer time ago than you and I think sometimes. So I'm going to say. Almost almost 100 years ago, Bob. Almost, man. Literally Haley and I the. Other day were talking about like if we wanted to move into our forever home, like when would it be financially feasible and I I said to her probably in the 30s. Which is a crazy. Statement to make Long story short, Bob, if this was your one chance at accomplishing a winning season, then you have guaranteed yourself a losing season.

1:01:07 What was it #2 Was the falsehood all right? Man, man, how old was this uncle? I can't get over how old this guy's uncle was. Yeah, he he. Literally said quote, he was for a long time the oldest man in our family. Maybe that would have helped you. And he lived in close proximity to me and we listen to the Blues all the time. Well, there you go. Sounds like a pretty good influence, honestly. Yeah, I listen. To the Blues, man, I'm I'm totally in. All right, man, you know we have not. Talked about the cast of this movie at all, which is crazy. I feel like we the last couple weeks we've gotten all of our discussion on the thematic elements of the movie out of the way in the first half, and then we're like, Oh yeah, people acted in this.

1:01:52 People acted in this. There are a number of. Oscar nominees to come out of this cast. So, you know, I I guess let's start at the top with Michael B Jordan, who plays two roles in this Smoke and Stack the twins. Originally, one of them was going to be played by the actor Jonathan Majors, but then he had a big controversy happened and they were like, absolutely not. So then Michael B Jordan was like, I'll play both characters, and he secures himself a Best actor nomination for this film. So it's supposed to. Michael be Jordans or I'm sorry. So it's supposed to be like fraternal twins? Yeah. I don't know, I maybe the script was exactly the same and you know how they at the beginning, the one guy's like, are you guys twins? And he's like, Nah, we're cousins and it's kind of a joke. Maybe they actually were just cousins in the original script. I don't I don't know how it was going to go, but so Michael B Jordan, best actor nomination.

1:02:46 He's an actor that we've talked about before on the podcast that I've always struggled with because he he has the movie star charisma and persona and the ability to like hold your attention on screen. And yet I just think that like 50. Percent of the. Time his line deliveries need another pass. Like he's just not a good deliverer of dialogue. And I don't want to say. That he's a bad actor 'cause I don't think that like, especially towards the end of the movie, you know, again, we're in full spoiler territory When Smoke is dying at the end of the movie. And like the look on his face as he's looking to like the souls of his wife and child and then getting snapped back to reality with the the clan guy. When Michael B Jordan can do wordless acting, he's fantastic. And then there's just like so many lines of dialogue in this movie where I'm like, dude, that, that wasn't convincing at all.

1:03:43 Does that mean I don't know? Am I alone? It does, No. I. Don't think you're alone. I will say I you know, I talked a little bit earlier about my critiques of the technical sides of this movie. I also don't think that the script is great. Yeah. We talked about the. Script being muddied in terms of the messaging it's trying to make. I also think the dialogue's not great in this movie. It's not bad I. I think that. There's a little a few extra passes that Coogler could have taken in the editing room of the script, but then you hand it to somebody like Michael B Jordan, who plays it earnestly.

1:04:24 He I, I think the problem with Michael B Jordan is that he is very, I don't want to use the words one note, but like he kind of delivers every line in a similar manner of like earnestness and like, it's always almost like he's like leaning forward and about to fall forward every time he delivers a line. And, and that's great. And it makes for a very movement oriented film, which this is. So I like it works. It's interesting, but there's not a lot of variance, There's not a lot of depth. When you need somebody, just sit in the moment rather than like leaning forward into the next thing.

1:05:08 It's it's not perfect. Like if I had to give a score to Michael B Jordan, I'd give it like an 8 out of 10. Like like really good, just not perfect I mean. I I don't hate that he got an Oscar nomination for this. I wish that he'd gotten it years and years ago for Fruitvale Station, but like, he's playing two roles here. It's hard to do. Like I and, and to his credit, you know, in the beginning of the movie, they both have different colored hats on. And it's like that's how you can tell who's who. And by the time at the end, you know, I guess by the end of the movie, he wants a vampire. So you can kind of tell that too. He's got like the orange. Eyes right, but even like as. They kind of like just get down into like their tank tops and stuff. His ability to kind of carry each character physically in different ways.

1:05:50 I'm sorry they they. Definitely, like, wear less clothes as the movie goes on. Maybe that's the sexy part you were talking about earlier. That's that's it, yeah. Exactly. But he is able to distinguish just in the body language of the characters of the, the demeanor and the way that the dialogue is delivered in terms of like the pep that Stack has versus like the kind of somber quality that Smoke has. I do think it's a good performance and I think that like frankly, though, he is kind of outshined by quite a few people in this movie. I I will mention Hailee Steinfeld here as Stax ex-girlfriend Mary, who's like, I had no idea that Hailee Steinfeld had that in her, but like, can we just say hot damn like she was? She was going.

1:06:38 For it, man. She's great, man. I also she's fantastic. This is another issue with the script where I'm like like did you have to put it in there that she's like 1/8 black? Like they like they very clearly like, well I guess we have to let her in because her, her mom's dad's cousins, uncles college roommate was also black. Man. What'd you think of the performance? Though I really enjoyed. Hailee Steinfeld I I think she does a great job of drawing Michael B Jordan forward. And then once she becomes a vampire, she's like, all in, like, like you can tell as an actress, she's like, I get to just choose scenery and be wild and ridiculous. And, you know, you don't see much of her once she becomes a vampire, but she is all in the entire time. All right, Wunmi, I'm sorry.

1:07:34 Wunmi Mosaku, I hope I'm saying that right Is is Annie Smokes estranged wife and I think pound for pound, maybe the best actor in this movie and that's kind of saying something. But like I found her performance like incredibly moving. I thought that she was the most believable person in this environment. Maybe her and Delroy Lindo together, but like they gave her the most kind of grieving sort of back story. She seemed like she had the most depth as a character. She has that sort of like world weariness and wisdom tied up in her physical performance here. I I don't know, man, if I had to say like, who did I think gave the best performance in the whole movie?

1:08:17 I think it would be her. Yeah. And she also. Nails like that. I haven't gotten laid in like 12 years since this guy left town. So let's get it on. Let's do it right now. Yeah, 100%. Yeah, I think. That the key for her comes in the fact that she is the narrator of the film and also a character in the film. And so you kind of get the emotional heft that when she talks, it carries weight because whoever chose to told this story chose to prioritize her voice. And so like that, that advantages her as an actress. And she gives a great performance, like her hesitance and her ability to like control each situation that they're in is just really great.

1:09:09 I do think that once again, the scripts kind of handicaps her a little bit. And like they give her a very classic like if capital I, if I turn into a vampire, make sure you kill me before it happens. And it's like she has these very cheesy lines to deliver. She does a great job with it. Script does not do her any favors there. Now I want to talk about Delroy. Lindo as Delta Slim because I think he has kind of the meatiest, well, we'll get to 1 other performance, but like he has a great like I'm the Comic Relief of this movie and I'm also kind of like what gives this movie some heft along with Wumi Musaku.

1:09:53 But like, first of all, Delroy Lindo is a is a guy that's been working in Hollywood for decades and is beloved in Hollywood. He did a movie a couple years ago with Spike Lee called The Five Bloods where people were saying he is going to win best actor for this movie. And frankly, I think he should have. Then he didn't even get nominated. It was like a huge Oscar snub. And so he finally gets his first Oscar nomination for Sinners. I think he might like, I think he might win. It's between him and Benicio, I think for for best supporting actor this year. And I man, I just think he's fantastic. Like the, the laugh lines work really well. He's super funny.

1:10:34 He's also like really, really earnest in the way that he tells about his own struggles throughout the movie. I thought he was like adding him to the cast made the movie 5 times better for me. Yeah. I will say I think he he starts really strong and like falls off at the end when he challenges preacher boy and is like, don't you dare play that guitar. This isn't my spot. Like you feel that sense of angst and like generational weight hanging on his shoulders. And then at the end of the film, he's like cutting his own arm and he's like, hey, here, here, come, come here, vampires, you come get me all like, almost like a zombie film. Like, like you can't control your lusts and things if you smell blood.

1:11:23 Like I it just felt like a lacklustre end to a really interesting character. I'm with you, though, that overall, throughout the course of the film, he does a really great job of playing the black cynic to be like, yeah, I've. I've seen black people try to claim thing as their own before. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. I guess I'll join you for this ride. Like like he has kind of that world weary sense that I I really enjoyed a lot. All right, I guess the last person we should. Talk about is Jack O'Connell, who plays Remic the the lead vampire. I love Jack O'Connell. He is an Irish actor. He's been working for, you know, a decade plus now.

1:12:04 He made a really great movie The 10:00-ish years ago called 71, which is about the troubles in Ireland. And it's really, really, really good. I here's the thing, He does exactly what he's supposed to do. Is that accent believable at all? No, but then like at the end of the movie, he drops the accent and he's speaking with an Irish accent. So I think that kind of indicates this guy's been faking it the whole time. Anyway, he is super hammy when he shows up in the doorway with his long fingers and just pops up and goes, Sammy, I want that clip. I want a sound bite of that clip to just play at random times on our podcast from here on out. It's incredible. It's so good.

1:12:45 Like it's exactly what you need in a cheesy horror movie, Brad. I, my struggle with him is once again script based like, like, who is he? What is he trying to do? Like is he just a vampire? Is he the, the script is so muddied on him. The performance itself follows the script. And so there's moments where he's highly charismatic and highly interesting. And then there's moments where you're like, what the heck is going on with this guy? And I, I'm here for it. It's a wild ride. It's fun, it's interesting. I don't know if I love it, but it's fun. And so I I'm, I'm with you on on him. I, I think it's funny that you want to end with him and not the introducing Miles Katyn that like, you know, we haven't talked about the main protagonist of the movie at all.

1:13:36 I mean, listen, he's. Fantastic. And you know, he sings all of his own songs. He's got an incredible singing voice. He also has like a very thick accent and kind of sounds like he has marbles in his mouth a little bit. So like this was definitely this was this was a movie where it's like people are speaking in English and I'm going to watch this movie with subtitles because we are being authentic to the fact that there's like real accents going on here. And, and if you've ever heard Ryan Coogler talk, like he has a very thick accent and he kind of speaks in a in a more muddled way. So that even further for me was like, oh, this character is Ryan Coogler. I think he's really, really good. I also think that there are times in the acting performance where you can tell this is like this is his first movie 100%.

1:14:19 And I like, I like Miles Caton. He does a really good job. There's a level of facial acting that he just has no experience with. And like his ability to control his eyebrows and his mouth as he says things like there's just. Certain. Things that Denzel Washington and Brad Pitt and George Clooney and, you know, all of these people can do that. He's not quite there yet and that's totally fine. It's his first movie. His singing voices beyond incredible. I'll I'll be curious to see like, you know, his agent and he whatever movies they decide on next.

1:15:00 How do they develop him as an actor? That that's what I'm curious about now, in terms of like. Pound for pound, minute for minute, I want to call out real quick Omar Benson Miller, who plays Cornbread, the bouncer that looks like Forest Whitaker at the front. He's I was like. Is that Forest Whitaker? I was like, he's too young to be Forest Whitaker, but the whole time. I like I felt so bad for his character because like he didn't even want to go. His wife was like we need the money. He was such a good husband to stick up for his wife. He seemed like such a nice guy. It's like you didn't deserve this fate dude and talk about like this. Script throwing the wife under the bus like, yeah, she's just a little bit money grubbing. Like, you know, don't worry about it, quota, just go make money.

1:15:43 All right, man, we've talked. About the cast, we've talked about Coogler as a director and as a writer. I think we've said what we need to say about sinners, and that means it's time for our last segment of the day, which we call Let's Make it a Double. We're near the end. Of the episodes of things listening to the film and Whiskey show, let's pair another film with this one. Even if it's struggling, it's the final segment of the day. Now let's make it a double. Let's make it a double. Is the. Part of the show where we pick a movie to pair up with this one to make the perfect double feature. Brad, where are you coming out for a double feature on Sinners? Or are you scrambling right now to try to find one? I I'm scrambling. Right now I literally have not given any thought.

1:16:25 I don't know. Well then, let me take 30 seconds because I had one. In my head earlier and I forgot what it was, so yeah, I didn't write it down or anything. Yeah, man. I all right. I'll go ahead and go first. There's a movie from the 70s and also a remake from the mid 2000s called Assault on Precinct 13, which is literally a movie about like a bunch of violent criminals who lay siege to this police precinct over the course of one night. And so it's like a standoff movie where you're just like defending the castle against the intruders. And it reminded me so much of sinners. I mean, obviously I think you could make a really kind of cheap comparison to like From Dust Till Dawn that's all over this movie as an influence.

1:17:09 But like, yeah, in terms of finding something that really captured the like, we're in a standoff here. I think Assault on Precinct 13 would be a fantastic movie to pair this with Man I Baba. I'm really struggling. I I'm trying to focus on like movies that contain A1 night stand. I I think you know. What I'm going to go with? This I, I think that as far as a film that has horror elements but focuses more on the relationships of the characters within the film and, you know, maybe a little bit of their growth into being who they ought to be, I'm going to go. With Shaun of the.

1:17:52 Dead nice. I like. I think that. Zombies not sexy. Not. We forgot to mention that earlier. Yeah, Yeah. So it definitely doesn't. You know, it doesn't collaborate in that sense. Not sexy in any way. But you get a lot of you get a lot of great moments in Shaun of the Dead. There's unexpectedly poignant moments like when Bill Nye is in the car and you're like sobbing before he turns into a zombie. Yeah. I think Shaun of the Dead and Sinners would make for a really fun, interesting horror light evening. I will say before we get off the. Topic I was also thinking about Malcolm X as a let's make it a double just in the sense that like we spend a lot of time talking about you know look at us like we are very white men and so like approaching topics of race like this it it can be hard to do I also think that there are things in this movie that you know I texted you earlier Brad I invite and welcome movies that challenge my point of view and even paint me or my chosen tribe or my identity as the villain in a movie provided that that movie makes a clear argument and that I can understand what the movie's trying to say on its own terms and I. Think that like.

1:19:10 Malcolm X as a person is is a person that I agree with the fight that he was fighting. I obviously disagree with a lot of his philosophy, and that's because I'm a Christian, right? Like Malcolm X was a Muslim. I think that Spike Lee in Malcolm X does such a good job of portraying who Malcolm X was as a person. Why he believed the things he believed that even if you disagree with those things is it is explicated so exceptionally well that like you watch that movie and you can't help but be. You know, on board with the. Film making of it all. Also, it's just Spike Lee.

1:19:51 It like his best as a director. I think it's a perfect movie. And I think that that's my segue into talking about my final score on this movie. Because this movie has an opportunity, even working within the genre of like a vampire movie, to tighten itself up just a little bit in the arguments that it wants to make and to kind of clarify and unmuddy those waters that it just doesn't do. Yeah, this is a. Movie that the craft. Of the movie is there and I can see that there's care and effort put in at like an A9 out of 10/8 and 1/2 out of 10 level The movie itself is like a fun 7.5 so I. Think I'm actually going? To fall at a 7.5 out of 10 with that little caveat that like this is not just like a fun little comedy that was made for $1,000,000.

1:20:37 Like there's, there's real genuine craft here. And and I think that the travesty of it is that the script let's all of the rest of it a little bit down. And if we had just tighten that up a bit, this could be an 8 and a half 910 out of 10 movie for me. Yeah, I I think this. Has the chance to be that I'm, I'm with you. I, I think this is a 7 1/2 out of 10. There's, there's a struggle of like, we're so focused on the messaging of the movie that some of the craft doesn't quite keep up and the waters get so messed up and like, you don't quite know what he's trying to say. And not like there's a difference between a writer and director being ambiguous and allowing the audience to make their own interpretation and being sloppy.

1:21:27 And I think Cooler kind of leans towards sloppy on the messaging in this movie, which is like, which is fine. And I think that's the the draw to go back to the one battle after another versus sinners comparison. I think for me, one battle after another is so ham fisted and so straightforward that it makes it a lesser film. And even though I don't think Coogler gets the ambiguity super well in this, I think he also just makes a really fun film. Like I, I walk away from this movie going like, yeah, my fun quota is filled. I don't know if my purpose or meaning quota is filled, but like, I'm a little bit confused.

1:22:10 And I had a good time. Whereas 1 battle after another, I walked away going like, oh, I know exactly what he's trying to say. And if you're on one side of that, you don't like it. And if you're on the other side of that, you'd love it. And I I kind of like that less than what Coogler does here with Sinners. So I'll give it a 7.5. It's a fun movie. It's a sloppy movie. Even some of the action scenes like I'm like like the vampires are rushing into the building and slaughtering everyone and it feels like they kill 8 people and there was only 6 in there to start with. And yet there's still three people who haven't been turned into zombies or vampires. And I'm like, hold on, what's happening right now? And then there's like a slow motion bit where he's like stabbing Annie in the heart and all the vampires are like backing out, but then they rush back in and yeah, I don't understand that either.

1:23:03 It it the logistics of it make no sense. The logistics make no. Sense and I like I mostly don't care, but it it keeps it back from being a perfect action vampire movie. All that to say, it's a really fun movie. I think it starts to explore some things that we ought to explore as a society and I, I guess one last one battle after another comparison. I don't mind. The idea of like looking back on our history and saying like the Jim Crow S was evil. I don't mind looking back and saying like, yeah, this Klansman selling them the gristmill with the plan to come and kill them in the morning. Like I like.

1:23:46 We ought to keep that in our cultural consciousness to say like, yeah, those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it. And in our past, we did really crappy stuff. All that I'm. Fine with it's the reinterpretation of the black church in the South that I'm like, I don't know if that's accurately representing history. And by misrepresenting history, I think it's creating an unhealthy present reality. And so I think it's stuff like that that like, it's hard to purse out and say this piece of the movie was good and this piece of the movie isn't helpful. But I think we need to do that as a culture rather than just having these simplistic, like you said earlier, Bob, these simplistic white people, bad people of color, good movies. Like, I don't know if those are helpful. I think Coogler moves in the direction of having a complex movie.

1:24:42 I don't know if he totally accomplishes it. All right, Well, we'd like to know what. You guys would think before I get there. All right Brad, that leaves us with a 7.5 average here, which is higher than our 7.25 on one battle after another. Now, assuming that these are our 2 front runners and there's not some random third movie that comes out of nowhere on Oscar night, I mean, neither of us love either of these movies. Which one would you be more satisfied to see take home the Oscar I think I'd land on. Sinners, like, I think sinners makes more expressive swings and it's interesting and it it feels fresh in a lot of ways that for me, one battle after another just didn't. There it is.

1:25:26 Boom, where? Where are you at? Suck. It Paul Thomas. Anderson, I mean, I. Guess. One battle after another, because I can understand. Yeah, I, I think for all the same reasons you said, like I, I see the swings PTA is going for there. It doesn't totally work for me. But like, I also think there, there's probably some makeup element of like, he didn't win for There Will be blood, he didn't win for the master. Like I think it's just kind of there's an inevitability to it. So I'm expecting to see one battle after another. Honestly, I'm still hoping that my favorite movie from last year, Sorry Baby, which isn't even nominated, just wins as a write in candidate and then everyone's shocked. That's that's what I'm hoping for here.

1:26:07 That, that would be wild. I Bob, you haven't even mentioned sorry baby on the podcast. Give me like 60 seconds on that. It's. I mean, it's a really good, it's a small little independent drama. It's gosh, it's I'm not going to sell you on it because it's kind of heavy, but it's go look. It up go. Watch it. It's a really good movie, folks. Sorry, baby. Brad, it's time for us to get out of here. So let me say, first of all, film and Whiskey Nation, thank you for sticking with us all the way through season 10. We're about to have some fun with the bracket challenge episodes next week, but we want to know what you think about sinners. Are we just wildly off base with our misinterpretation of the movie? You can let us know on social media, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, TikTok or YouTube at Film Whiskey or if you want.

1:26:55 To join the conversation, there's a link to our Discord server where we talk about movies and whiskey and life. There's a link to that at the end of every single one of our show notes. All right, we'll be back next. Week with the bracket challenge, but until then, I'm Bob Book. I'm Brad G. And we'll. See you next time.