Memento / Rabbit Hole Cavehill Bourbon

0:00 In 2000, director Christopher Nolan and star Guy Pierce gave the world a frenetic flick that toyed with the ideas of memory, time and reality. In 2023, we returned to Kentucky to try a four grain bourbon. The film is Memento. The whiskey is rabbit hole. Cave Hill and we'll review them both. This is the film. And whiskey podcast. Welcome to the Film and Whiskey Podcast, where each week we review a classic movie and a glass of whiskey. I'm Bob Book.

0:50 I'm Brad Gee. And this week, Brad. The mind effing begins on film and whiskey. Bob, I I got a tattoo in memoriam of this episode. It's just as Brad explains. Fact #1, Brad always explains. This week we are starting a miniseries of films by everyone's favorite time traveling director, Christopher Nolan. We've done a few Nolan films on the show before Brad, I know we've done Interstellar. Let's see, Inception and The Dark Knight, right? So this is, yeah, 4-5 and six from Chris Nolan. Which will put him up there as one of our higher, you know, amount of films reviewed. Yeah, I mean, it really was kind of fortuitous, Brad, because we're doing this miniseries of directors, and if you look at, say, the IMDb Top 250, you see a lot of Nolan movies in there, and it's because A, Nolan makes really good movies. And B.

1:48 He has amassed a following as a director that is kind of unparalleled I would say, since the early Tarantino days in terms of having fanboys. So I kind of figured it would be necessary for us to talk about these three movies at some point and what better time to do them then leading up to the release of his movie Oppenheimer, which I believe comes out on the 21st of July. So yeah, it's, it's, it's great time for engagement and downloads, Brad. That's daggone, right? It is. I was going to say if there's any time where we wanted to ingratiate ourselves to the Nolan fanboys, this is it. This is the time. Get ready for the butt kissing of all butt kissing. Oh, and Speaking of which, not the butt kissing part, but the fortuitous timing part.

2:34 We don't always line up our whiskeys in thematic ways, but I figured we had a whiskey sitting on the shelf called Rabbit Hole and I was like, oh man, if we're going to talk about going down the rabbit hole with any director, Chris Nolan. Yeah. Am I right? I mean, am I right? Because I matched him up so? It would have been better with the matrix. I think it would have been even better with the Prestige, just because of pulling rabbits out of hats and stuff like that. And you're going down the rabbit hole that. Would have been better. That's all right. We did pretty. Good So. Well, by you take your own blame for the failure of the show, Bob. I mean, this could have been the week we did, like Basil Hayden's or something, Brad. So just count your lucky stars, man.

3:15 Oh God, that whiskey sucks. All right, well, let's steer away from Basil Hayden. Let's steer back into Chris Nolan. So it's been a while since we've done a Nolan film on the podcast. Brad, you know, just, I'm sure that you've watched a Nolan film, probably in the interim, just because they're so popular. When you think about Christopher Nolan. What kind of directorial or writing or acting hallmarks come up in your mind? Like who is he as a director? First off, I love that you assume that I just watch movies like we've been friends for long enough, Bob. That, you know, I don't watch movies other than for the podcast. I feel like it makes me feel like such a huge jerk, though, to assume the other way to be like, well, Brad, I assume you don't watch any movies, so let's just say that you haven't watched a Chris Nolan movie in two years. I I will clear the record for everyone listening here, Bob. I have not watched a Christopher Nolan movie in the last. Two years?

4:12 Well, then, let me rephrase in the two years it's been. What kind of things about Nolan stick out to you when you think about him as a director, even through two years of hazy, foggy memory? I think that he always has really dynamic relationships with the characters in his films. I'll I'll spoil a tiny bit of momento here. The moments where he has memories of his wife feel like the most. Null in the version of himself in this, you know, his earliest film. Is this his first film? It's not technically his first film, so he made a movie called Following a few years before this, which was I think it's only about 65 or 70 minutes long.

4:56 Like it's just long enough to count as a feature film. It played in a few film festivals and kind of got him the recognition he needed to make Memento. But Memento is the movie that introduced him to the world. So yeah, it's his second movie, but for all intensive burdens, it it's kind of his first movie. Yeah, so there there's pieces of Memento that feel like, oh, you can see where he will go as a blockbuster director. But for now, what? What I think of when I think about Nolan is convoluted plots. That have just wild endings. And I think, I mean the only one I can think of that's not necessarily that wild is like Batman Begins. And even that one has a plot twist. He is just a fascinating director who uses the camera really well in memory sequences.

5:49 I think that's what I I think about and and I'll go back to what we said about Interstellar. He just swings for the fences constantly and it doesn't mean he always gets there, but I think the reason he has a fanboy following is because he's always trying to like, hit a Grand Slam. Yeah, I mean, totally agree. I think that as a filmmaker, what he's most known for is playing with time. He's obsessed with the concept of time. Whether it's moving forward in time or backward in time or across time in Interstellar, it's always a theme throughout his movies. And time and memory, I think, are the two things that you could really call his hallmarks as a director. Brad, you know, we, we just came off of a Chaplin series, and I told you that I got 12 books out of the library about Chaplin. I went to the library and I ordered some books about Chris Nolan, and there's only three of them on my shelf now. And I think it says a lot about, I don't know, the state of film criticism that one of the most significant filmmakers of the last 20 years has only had a few films written about him or a few books written about him.

6:54 And I can't decide if it's because it it just doesn't seem like it's been long enough to offer a career evaluation. Or if it's just that his themes are so on the surface or, you know, so proudly displayed that there's really not much of A need to do a book length dive into them. Because I think everyone recognizes this is what this guy deals with. Like, even to your point, something like the Batman series that he did, The Dark Knight series. Those are all about time. There's always a ticking clock at the end of those movies, whether it's the bomb at the end of the third one or racing against time in the Joker in the second one, then even in the first one. When you're establishing the story of Bruce Wayne, like the memory of his parents getting murdered is what drives the character of Batman.

7:39 And so it he's always been the perfect filmmaker for that character because it's right in line with what he likes to talk about. I haven't seen Batman Begins in a really long time. I think that one ends with a bomb racing for Wayne Tower at the at the center of the city, right? Yeah. It's him and Liam Neeson on The Monorail, yeah. Yeah, so even that one, it's it's a bomb race. Kind of like the third one. Yeah, man. I'm excited to dive into Nolan, and I don't mean to make it sound like he's a simplistic filmmaker. Like you said, he's always playing with the chronology of his movies. And sometimes it seems like it's necessary for the movies to be told. And sometimes it feels like it's just Chris Nolan wanting to take a pretty straightforward story and just make it convoluted for the sake of making it convoluted.

8:27 These three films we're going to look at, I have wildly different opinions across the three of them. And to get us back to Memento, I will say this. I have not seen Memento in probably 15 years. I watched it one time. I wasn't a huge fan. I always felt like it was a little forced. It was a little contrived. A little too cute for its own good, you and I, Brad sat down and watched this movie together. A first for the Film and Whiskey podcast. An absolute first. I I mean, we have never once sat down together and watched a movie for the purpose of recording an episode for you all. You are welcome. That's crazy, man. Yeah, you're welcome. I mean this is this is episode what like 209 or something for us?

9:09 And it's never ever happened before. And not to spoil too much of my thoughts on the movie, but I have changed my tune on Memento. I I mean, I'm excited to talk about it then. All right, man, I think that I've been delaying something, the inevitable here for a couple minutes, and that's because I do not envy your task today. In our first segment, which we call, Brad explains. Brad's gonna give us the movie plots with only 60 seconds ticking on the clock, so let's go ahead and do your take with this little segment that we call Brad explains. Would you say that doing a Brad explains for Gone with the Wind or Memento would be harder? I mean, God, the wind is just like this happens, and then this happens, and then this happens.

9:55 And, you know, like it's just a long. Movie. But God with the Wind is like this happens then this happens. And then 397 other things happen. That was more just like a list that you were reading. This is going to be a real challenge. So Brad explains is the part of the podcast where Brad breaks down the plot of the movie that he has just seen often for the first time Brad was this your first time watching Memento? It sure was, Bob. Well then, I really don't envy you. You have 60 seconds on the clock to break down the plot of this movie. Folks, we are going to get into spoilers on this review. If you've not seen the 22 year old movie Memento, I need you to just stop here, go listen to it and then come back because this movie and the discussion of it is going to hinge on its spoilers.

10:41 So Brad, just a no holds bar. Don't hold anything back. You've got one minute on the clock to break down this movie and go. Guy Pierce is an insurance agent whose big break came when he proved that a man named Sammy Jankes. Did not actually have shortterm memory loss, and he was faking it, which led to the death of that man's wife and then he himself. Guy Pierce's character receives shortterm memory loss after his wife is brutally attacked and murdered in their home. The rest of the film is about him trying to put together the pieces of his wife's murder and figure out who the killer is.

11:24 By the end of the film he has interacted with Trinity from the Matrix and she is helping him to try and figure out the problem. Joe Pantoliani, Leoni Leoni. Joe plays a guy named Teddy who is a police officer who's trying to help him find the killer. But at the end of the film, it turns out that they already found and killed the killer, but the shortterm memory loss never allowed him to remember that. And so Teddy has been using him to kill a bunch of different people who are bad guys, and Guy Pearce turns the formula around and uses his shortterm memory loss to seek out and kill Teddy. OK, I'll let you go for a minute and 20 seconds because that's, it's hard, man, you know?

12:10 Thanks man. It is what? It is. I'm really interested, Brad, in the fact that you explained this movie in the chronological order that the events happen in the movie. That's the only way to do it, man. And I'm wondering how important it is that we say upfront that the central conceit of this movie is that it is not told in chronological order. It is told in a disorienting fashion. And it really does take you until just about the last minute of the movie to piece everything together, not only because information is withheld from you, but just because you are watching two different timelines being intercut. Yeah, and and that's, that's kind of the whole, the whole gimmick, Bob.

12:53 It's it's, I hate to say it, but this movie is a big gimmick. It is a big. It mostly works. The thing that makes it not work is what Nolan is constantly. Undermined for which is way too much dialogue. And I I just don't know if he's a great director of actors because there's a lot of bad acting in this movie. Oh yeah, I disagree with that. I think that he's a really good director of actors. I will say that you and I were sitting next to each other on the couch watching this movie and at multiple points, you know, at, you know, in the middle of the movie, we were stopping it and just laughing at some of the dialogue in this movie. But. And I think it's also really important to note that if you're going to kind of categorize this movie into a genre, this is a noir.

13:40 This is 100% of film noir. It has all of the elements of a noir. It's an unreliable narrator who may or may not be doing sketchy things. It's got corrupt cops. It's got a femme fatale. It's got a mystery that needs to be unraveled. People keep dying. It has a really bleak outlook on the world, like it is 100% of film noir. And I do wonder if. Because of having that in mind, if Nolan makes these characters speak in sort of almost 1940s hard boiled detective language, I'm not saying it works, but I'm wondering now, Brad if the the reason the dialogue feels so forced sometimes is because he's trying to make the dialogue sound more like a noir. Yeah, and and there's places where it works. I mean, honestly, I think that some of the black and white scenes.

14:31 Work because they're black and white and you're like yeah, this is this is a noir that is totally makes sense. I think that the the big issue I have is that not only is the dialogue rough, but it the actors just often feel stilted throughout the movie. I think that guy Pierce does a phenomenal job when he's not talking like when he is silent. I I think that he has a talent for looking blank. On the surface, while like completely confused underneath and trying to figure out what's going on, and he has a real talent for that. But then he opens his mouth and it's not great, Bob. I can feel you trying to jump into performances here, and I want to.

15:19 I just want to real quick, I want to reestablish this whole thing about the timeline of the movie, because I feel like we're going to be talking about the different timelines of this movie and we need to at least offer a little bit of an explanation, so. The movie starts with the chronological ending of the events, and you kind of get a hint very early on that everything that you see in color is moving in reverse chronological order. At the same time, these color scenes are being intercut with black and white scenes and those are moving forward in time the way time normally works. And what you come to find out is basically like you have two timelines being intercut 1. Going from the end towards a middle point backwards in time and one going from the beginning towards that same middle point, and they both arrive at the same middle point at the end of the movie. And you get this really cool transition from black and white fading into color.

16:13 And you can tell all right, this is where these two timelines intersect. But you're entirely right, Brad, in that the the stylizing of those different timelines is almost completely different. I mean, not just the fact that it's black and white, but. The kind of dialogue that or I guess monologue that Guy Pierce is giving in those black and white scenes where he's just talking over the phone to an unseen person that feels very much like your standard, you know, Double Indemnity or Sunset Blvd. kind of narration where he's he's just talking about okay. This is what happened with Sammy Jenkas. And you could see that if this was a movie from the 50s, they would have this. Really nice. Like dissolve into the first time I met Sandy Jenkins and you have this voice over, except it's not played as voice over.

16:58 It's played as like this paranoid conversation that he's having inside a motel room. I don't know, man. I I I can't say that the dialogue or the way that it's written works for me as believable dialogue. But I think for me it's more that this is the early 2000s where it was really cool to mumble everything. Like, it reminded me so much of, like Jim Carrey in Eternal Sunshine how you can never he's like, he's so morose that you can't really understand what he's saying at any point. That's Guy Pearce in this movie. And I know it's intentional, but we watched this movie with subtitles on because it was the dialogue comes at you really fast, but it's never enunciated well enough to understand. And and that's that's like a problem, Bob, like if I'm sitting here on this podcast.

17:49 And I'm just talking like this. And I think that it's really silly that I just, you know, things like, like you would drive down to Delaware and slap me across the face. Right with a microphone. With a microphone, tell me to enunciate, sit closer. And I I just don't understand how a Hollywood film director can struggle to have his actors be understood. And I know that he has a whole thing about how he wants his sound design done. You don't need to understand every word. And like, for the most part, I'm fine with that. Like, I actually have come to a point where I don't like subtitles because I want to watch the movie as the director wants me to watch it. But I'll just tell you this if I can't understand. Even like 30% of what an actor says throughout the movie, you know, especially if it's the main actor, I'm not going to enjoy the movie.

18:41 I want to know what's going on. And and Momento was a struggle with that. Especially in a movie like this, where so much of the information is withheld from you until the very end that you need to be able to rely on what you're seeing and hearing just to make heads or tails of what's going on. Even if it's supposed to be disorienting, Even if you're not supposed to understand exactly who put those. Cuts on his face or what's her motivation right now? You at least need to be able to understand what they're saying and what they're pretending is their alibi. And when you can't understand that, it really does cause some huge problems for this movie. And I think that it's kind of a minor miracle, Brad, because like I said, at multiple points in this movie, I was like, this is not working at all, Brad. And you were like, no, I don't like this at all. And I was about to come in here with the hottest hot takes ever and say, oh man, it's even worse than I remembered. And to its credit.

19:33 The last 20 minutes of this movie are pitch perfect to a point where I can't believe how much it improved my final score. Yeah, no, I I mean the the last 20 minutes of this film, everything comes together. The editing is nice and tight. The acting takes a jump up as the action becomes more tense. Like everything about the last 15 to 25 minutes was great. Like impressive. But the rest of it was a very, very average film that I wish had been directed by, like, I don't know, Alfonso Cuaron. Like, I feel like there's just other people who would have done a much better job with like 80% of this movie. I think that this movie relies on its editing, and we usually don't talk about editing on this podcast in depth, but the way it's edited together, it reminds me a lot of, like some of the. Like like Oliver Stone movies from the early 90s, like JFK, which Brad, I can't wait till we watch that on the show someday. It is probably the best edited movie I've ever seen. And there's this whole sequence towards the end of the movie where Kevin Costner's character is giving his argument in court for why Lee Harvey Oswald was not actually the killer. And it's just this dizzying montage of, you know, the Zapruder film with reenactment with courtroom footage and the sound and the John Williams score is like. It to me it's like the pinnacle of film editing and I think this movie relies on that a lot.

21:00 You see this all through the 90s with the twist ending kind of movies like The Usual Suspects and and I think this movie really, really does rely on that editing. I don't know if a Cuaron necessarily would have made this movie that much better because it's about the way that the movie is cut. And if you don't have what I think is some really great editing, I don't think the movie works at all, no matter who's behind the camera. I have a question for you about the JFK assassination. Yes, this is exactly what I wanted to talk about on our Momento episode. Hey man, you brought it up, so it's all your fault. So a conspiracy theory, by definition, is something that, like, a small part of the population believes, right? Like that's kind of like a basic thing is like, yeah, this little group of people believe in Sasquatch. Sure.

21:50 Would you say it's more of a conspiracy theory? To believe that, like Oswald was the shooter, that like, he was the only one. Like to believe the story that was told to us. Or to, like believe the the gunman on the hill, the two shooters, the whole thing. Like, do you think it's more of a conspiracy theory now in 2023 to be like, yeah, no, I just think it happened the way the government said it did. I feel like everybody believes in the conspiracy theory. I think it's a good question. I think that you can't necessarily equate the terms conspiracy theory and like fringe belief, right? Like conspiracy theory is just like the theory that someone was conspiring in a way that the record doesn't reflect and at that could be something that is believed by a small or a large part of the population. I think you're right though in that it is a more. Fringe belief.

22:43 A more radical notion nowadays to believe that it happened the way they said. I think more of the population thinks JFK had some shady business going on and the government and or someone else took care of him. Some some bad actors, if you will. Speaking of bad actors, let's get back into talking about Memento. I'm really excited together, baby. I'm really excited to talk about Carrie Ann Moss in this movie because she plays. One of the most villainous and devious femme fatales I've ever seen in a noir. And yet, the more I thought about this movie, Brad, the more I'm not sure how devious she actually is. We need to talk about it. But before we get into the character, let's talk about the performance. I think she's really good in this movie. Like, her character's not fleshed out on purpose. We only know who she is through Leonard, and she plays exactly the role she needs to play in his story, and then she's out of the movie.

23:38 So you don't get these big emotional scenes from her where she's talking about her motivations, but you don't need that in a movie like this. And I think for what she's asked to do, she's really, really good. Yeah, overall, her performance is like 7 out of 10, and then she has that scene where she's screaming at him and just like basically calling him an idiot. And like, you're not even going to remember this. Like, I'm going to go back out and come back in. You're going to forget the whole thing and I'm going to tell you whatever I want. And then she does it. And it like her performance in that scene where she's faking how she got attacked is mindblowingly good, like 10 out of 10 acting.

24:21 And I was just like, oh man, dude, she is like terrifying here. All right, so here's The funny thing about this character and Brad. I was reading and reading and reading before we press record. I understand this movie pretty easily. Like, once you understand the gimmick of the movie, you go, OK, so I can lay these things out in my mind chronologically. The only thing that I couldn't wrap my mind around was her character. And if she is truly evil or like, what is the the end point of her character? Does she still, is she still using Leonard? It does she still hate Leonard? And we think about the character chronologically. She is a bartender who is also kind of helping set up drug deals for her boyfriend Jimmy.

25:03 Jimmy is supposed to go meet this guy named Teddy, who we we later learned who Teddy is, and she sets up this deal and Jimmy never comes back. And then a guy who we know is Leonard shows up in Jimmy's car wearing Jimmy's clothes, and she figures out pretty easily that it's this guy that Jimmy's been calling the memory guy from seeing him around town. And so she starts using him to try to get information on what the hell happened to her drug dealer boyfriend. She has him go kind of kidnap and get rid of this guy named Dodd at some point. And once he does that, she seems to have like a change of heart. Because the first times we see her in the movie is the end of the story chronologically, and she's helping him find this license plate that he wrote down. And I kept thinking, like, oh, she was using Leonard to bump off Teddy the cop.

25:54 But I think at one point in the movie, Teddy even tells Leonard, like, no, she doesn't know who I am. So I don't really think she actually is being devious beyond getting the information that she wanted. And and she was like, hell yeah, I'll use this guy, He's wearing my boyfriend's clothes. He clearly knows something. And the more I think about it, the more I'm like, the reveal is set up as if she's a femme fatale. But when you lay it out chronologically, it's actually kind of reasonable what she does. Yeah, and and I'm curious if she somehow knows that Teddy is a cop. Like even if he says, oh, she doesn't know who I am, Like, I wonder if she has figured out somehow that he's a cop and is responsible for her boyfriend's murder. And so it's like, well, you know, I can use this, this peers to get Leonard to get back at him. But even if that's not the case, like. I like I like her character.

26:47 I think that she's kind of smart and witty and her ability to control the situation is really impressive. And that takes us to Joe Pantoliano as Teddy, who I think, I mean, he has this, the kind of scene stealing performance of the movie, like he's the wisecracking side character. He is perfect for what this movie needs him to be. It's the Edward Edward G Robinson character of this movie. He's really, really good. And I love that Nolan catches both of these people, Carrie Ann Moss and Joe Panchaliano coming off The Matrix. Like this is the first movie they make after The Matrix. I think both of them.

27:29 And they're both so good in this movie. And I think that it's kind of funny because in The Matrix you get the big reveal that Joe Panchaliano is the bad guy. In this movie, you get the big reveal that he's actually been helping our protagonist the whole movie, and that the Trinity character is actually kind of a Dick to him, you know what I mean? Like it's a great little reversal of their roles from The Matrix. I really loved his performance. Yeah, Joe was hands down the best performer in the movie. I really liked Mark Boone Junior. I thought that he was good as the the receptionist. At the motel. But I I think that Joe Pantoliano definitely steals the show and I like. At the end of the day though, I have to ask, is it like, was what he was doing worth it?

28:20 Like he like, he tells him like, yeah, you killed the guy like 4 guys ago and I've just been using you to keep killing more guys. Like do you think he has it down to a science of like? All right, day one show him this picture this guy, and day two do this and like like does he have it figured out down pat? Like how to get him to kill people? I just feel like there's easier way to kill people than have a dude with short term memory loss. Like go through the motions every day and figure it out. Well, especially since you have to be with him for so much. Like, it's one thing to just hire a hitman when you don't have any other contact beyond, like, here's the guy, here's the money, go kill him.

29:02 You know, like they're going to have video surveillance footage of him riding around in a car with Leonard, like, for weeks and weeks on end. Yeah, it it just feels very contrived. I don't know out of out of all the plots. That Christopher Nolan has sold us. I feel like this one is kind of the silliest where this this detectives like yeah, you know what I could do with this short term member lost guy you know turn him into a psych hospital or. All right, Brad, I think we're in a good place to hit pause. Let's try this rabbit hole. What do you say? Let's get to it. All right, so today we are checking out Rabbit Hole Cave Hill.

29:50 This is the second Rabbit Hole product we've tried on the show. And the thing about Rabbit Hole Brad, is I know that at one point they weren't putting these fancy little names on their bottles. It was just like Rabbit Hole Black Label or Rabbit Hole Red Label. And so when we were first sent these samples by our friend Austin at the Bourbon Earring Podcast, it was just like Rabbit Hole Bourbon. And then Rabbit Hole Red or something, it's like what is the because then I go look it up online and now they've added these names like Cave Hill and High Gold and all these things. So what we're trying today, you may know it as just Rabbit Hill, Rabbit Hole Black Label. This is a four grain bourbon, 70% corn, 10% malted wheat, 10% honey, malted barley, 10% malted barley.

30:35 So I mean two of the grains are barley but they're malted in different ways. So they count them as separate things. I'm pretty pumped to try this, Brad. It's a high barley mash bill, much more barley than there is wheat in this, and no rye. Yeah, it sounds absolutely delicious. I will say, without it being an age statement as a Kentucky straight bourbon whiskey, doesn't that doesn't that mean it has to be at least four years? At least four years old to not carry an age statement. So that means that the youngest whiskey in this blend is at least four years of age. They have a big thing on their website that they say this is an extreme small batch. Never, never more than 15 barrels in each batch, which I really like that, you know, that does seem small enough that it seems like a legitimate small batch and not whatever the hell, you know, wild turkeys trying to sell us or.

31:22 We have 200 and 5300 barrel blend. All right, so this is coming in at 95 proof, or 47.5% A/B V Let's dive in, man. What are you picking up on the nose? The nose is really beautiful. It's got some nice caramel and vanilla. There's toasted marshmallow, some strawberry, and almost at the end I found myself thinking about like Cream of Wheat, but not bad. Like like a really nice sugary Cream of Wheat. I I liked it a lot, Bob. I gave it an 8 out of 10. I like this a lot too. It's very bright on the nose. I get a lot of like almond extract on this, almost like an almond cake.

32:03 But it goes along with all those notes you were talking about, lots of vanilla on this. And then I get quite a bit of blueberry, which is something I don't usually get. And I'm not talking like blueberry syrup or something. It's just fresh picked. Like when you go to wash them before you eat them, like, it's just, man, it's really, really nice. And then I get just a slight, the slightest hint of like, brininess on this. There's just a little bit of a salty thing going on here too. I'm excited to see how that translates to the taste, but the the nose is off the charts man, really good. I'm going to give it an 8 1/2. Yeah, the pallet is matches the nose perfectly for me. It it turned into a little bit more of a floral honey agave type of direction along with some caramel that you got on the nose and then it almost got a little bit minty for me at the end like a like a sweet mint and I. Absolutely love this, Bob.

32:58 I give it an 8 1/2 out of 10. This is definitely not an unsweet whiskey, but the the sweetness that we normally get on weeded bourbons is not the dominant flavor here. It's really nice and I I think I still am getting some of that blueberry. It's like almost like a dark fruit underlying it. You might be able to pick it up as black cherry. You might pick it up as like a Raisin. For me, it's coming across as blueberry right now. There's a lot of vanilla on it as well and then it gets really heavily like char flavor for me. I really like it and I think that might be the barley coming through a little bit. But the combo of that kind of really dark char with some really nice dark fruit is super unique. This is not a flavor profile we get on many bourbons. Brad.

33:43 I'm going to give it an 8 out of 10. Yeah. And then as we get into the finish, I think that there's like everything you want on a finish is here. It's a little bit oaky. The mint keeps coming through for me and then the the Cream of Wheat almost kind of blends with some of the fruity notes and almost turns into like an orange creamsicle flavor for me on the finish. I really liked it. Again, I'll, I'll give it an 8 out of 10. Yeah, I think the finish is just more of the same from the palette, which is really nice. Like it's it's it's nice sometimes. When you don't have to give a whole new set of notes on something and it's just super consistent, it's the same notes of like really dark blueberry, almost a blueberry compote, dark cherry for me.

34:26 And then that that barrel char mixed with a little bit of that kind of light effervescence that we get from weeded bourbons, lots of vanilla, that caramel and brown sugar finally come out on the end. This is really nice. I will say this Brad, I don't know if this is like. An intro to bourbon. Bourbon. You know what I mean? This is like A, it's more complex than most bourbons. I would offer someone who's just starting out. But B, it seems outside the norm of weeded bourbon enough that I wouldn't like. If you put this in the lineup with like Rebel and Weller and Maker's Mark, I think this is the one that would be like the outlier of the group. Flavorwise, it's really, really good. I just think that I'm glad we waited until now to try it, because.

35:13 It. Defied my expectations so much. I'm going to give it an 8 on the finish and I'm also going to give it an 8 1/2 on the balance. See, I think balance is actually where this stands out. I think that there's enough complexity here with really nice balance of flavors that move through the nose to the taste to the finish really, really well. I give it a nine and a half on balance by. And then when we get to value in the state of Ohio, you can get this 750 milliliter bottle for $60.00. And honestly I think that that's a pretty good value like this across the board is like a B plus whiskey.

36:00 And so I I think that $60.00 is kind of right on par for where it should go. As far as just the juice that's in the bottle, I give it an 8 out of 10. Yeah, I I will say that. Again, we we always come back to this thing of like Brad scores his value score based on like does the taste of the product justify the price? And I always come at it a little bit more from like man, it's a good thing this tastes good because I think this is kind of pricey for a four year bourbon, you know what I'm saying? Like Rabbit Hole always prices their stuff kind of in that premium pricing range and the last Rabbit hole we had we liked but we didn't love it and I think at $60.00 that one was a pretty low value. This is the same kind of principle. It's a four year bourbon.

36:42 You could get Rebel for $20 or you get this for $60.00. I think that it's slightly overpriced, but I am swayed to give it a better score because the juice is really, really good. I think I'll still give this a 7 out of 10 on value, but that is with the caveat that like I'm scoring at that high because the product is good, not because the production. Mandates that this needs to be $60.00. Does that make sense? Yeah, 100%. Yeah. So for me, at the end of the day, I am coming out to a a pretty high score here, Bob. I'm at a 42 out of 50. I am at a 40 out of 50, which takes us to a very easy to average 41 out of 50 or an 82 out of 100.

37:27 This is our highest scoring whiskey in a little while, Brad. It's nice to have one that we can pretty heartily recommend here. Yeah, this is a very obvious whiskey that you should go try. I think it's worth getting a sample at the bar. I think it's worth getting a bottle. So also, it's a really beautiful bottle. So yeah, add it to add it to your liquor shelf. This is an easy recommend from both Bob and I. Now I am like the If you're the resident rye fan on this podcast, I feel like I can pretty confidently say I'm the resident weeded bourbon guy. Like this is just this is my favorite kind of bourbon. Which would you agree with me that this is probably the most unique tasting weeded bourbon we've ever had, just in terms of being outside the norm? Yeah, 100%.

38:12 This one has some really interesting flavors for me. It was that mintiness that like really turned me on to this whiskey and I I just enjoyed it a lot. Me too, man. All right, so we're above the 40 mark once again. Go buy it. Go try it. Brad, Let's get back into talking about Memento. What do you say? Let's get to it. All right, everybody. That was Rabbit Hole Cave Hill Bourbon. A whiskey worth going down the rabbit hole for Bob. I will say we have climbed back out of the rabbit hole. Brad and I can't wait to dive back in again. Nailed it. You know what rabbit hole I like going down every week, Bob? I think I do.

38:57 Brad, Is it 2 facts in a falsehood? Canada's favorite segment 2 facts and a falsehood. Brad. Is gonna try to stumpy ball. 2 are right and what is wrong? 2 facts and a falsehood. 2 Facts and a Falsehood is the part of the podcast where Brad presents three items to me as fact about the making of this movie, one of which is a lie, and I have to figure out which one that is. Brad, I don't remember what I'm sitting at on the season. I think I'm like. A game under 500, like I'm still hanging around in the Division. Yeah, but I'm. Like I'm like in 3rd or 4th place in the Wild Card race, you know? If I if I had to guess, I'm pretty sure you are six and seven right now.

39:42 We'll say six and seven. That sounds good. Yeah, you're doing great, man. I'm proud of you. You're giving it the old college try. It's a little demeaning, but that's fine, I'll take it. Hey, that's about the best you'll get for me. Fact #1. Initially, Brad Pitt showed interest in playing the role of Leonard but was not able to do to other commitments once he passed on the role. Christopher Nolan did not consider any other Quote a List actors because he wanted to have the ability to spread his budget more evenly among the cast. Fact #2, Christopher and Jonathan Nolan were turned down by 12 different studios before New Market Films picked them up. Momento was their first film and it's critical success helped them succeed as a film distribution company. Fact #3.

40:27 Christopher Nolan's screenplay was based on his brother Jonathan Nolan's story Memento Mori. However, the screenplay is still considered original rather than adapted because Jonathan's story was not published until after the film was completed. I think #2 is the falsehood, but I'm going to, I'm going to vamp a little bit so we get some quality content out of this. Brent, I read earlier that I, Brad Pitt had been considered for this role, that he had a really busy schedule. And I found that very funny and I was going to bring it up at some point on this episode because you and I had said at multiple points this would have been a great Brad Pitt role. And the stylings of of Guy Pierce look very similar to Brad Pitt in Fight Club, from the bleached spiked hair to the the kind of wiry frame.

41:13 I think it's really funny that the suit that Guy Pierce wears in this movie is really similar to the suit that Brad Pitt then wears the next year in Ocean's 11. So I could very easily see Brad Pitt in this. I think one's true. I also think 3 is true because I know that this was based on on Jonathan's short story. I know this movie was nominated for a screenplay Oscar, but I don't remember if it was original or adapted. So you might be able to get me there, but that sounds very true, so I'm going to go ahead and say two is the falsehood. Bob, you are now seven and seven on the season. Congratulations. Look at you coming back up to 500. Thank you, Brad Pitt.

41:56 I'd like to thank Brad Pitt for not being in this movie so that I could learn the trivia about him. Dude, the other person I was thinking about was Edward Norton, which, you know, obviously like the Fight Club duo, but I I feel like Edward Norton could have pulled this role off better than Guy Pearce. I've thought about this because he told me this the other night, and I don't think I agree anymore. I think Ever Norton would have brought too much kind of nervous energy to this movie, whereas the kind of like detached, cool, calm, collected version of Guy Pearce. You know, I was reading something Nolan said about him and why he loved Guy Pearce so much in this movie. And he talked about Leonard's optimism and how if this movie was laid out chronologically, it would suck because it's just not told that way, but also because.

42:42 You have to keep buying into the fact that this guy wakes up every day with this blank expression on his face and and motivated by optimism like a puppy dog. And I think you really do get that in a lot of these scenes. I kind of commented that to you as we were watching it that there is a sort of earnestness to him as a character even before you find out some of the shady stuff he did at the end of the movie that the version who doesn't remember that, you know. He goes into the world very naive, not too differently than the tramp that we've been watching for the last four weeks, Brad. Look at you. Bob I just. I think the guy Pierce pulls that part of the role off better than most people could, especially in the early 2000s. Yeah, I I mean, I I think that there is an element of that's of that that is true.

43:29 I think my struggle is the idea of him as a optimistic puppy dog who has tattoo a tattoo on his body. That says John G raped and killed my wife. OK, well I will say I I ad libbed the puppy dog part of it. But I am with Chris Nolan on his optimism comment. Yes I am. I agree that most dogs would not tattoo that on themselves. It's a very grim optimism at the very least, like I might not have been able to save my wife. But I'll get the bastard who did it. But I think the naivete and the like, the trusting of people that he probably shouldn't be trusting of and that as an audience member, we have a sort of natural wariness towards.

44:14 I think that Pierce pulls that off really well. He puts himself in harm's way a lot. And you as an audience member, even though you're trying to figure out this mystery alongside him, you don't want to see him get hurt. And so it really does. It does a great job of making him the protagonist of the movie. And not simply the plot engine of the movie. Yeah, I I think the other thing is that Nolan leans into kind of the horror movie trope of like, why are they going into the basement rather than the the running car outside in the sense that like as an audience member, you just keep asking yourself, why is he trusting her? Why is he trusting him? Like what? Like why are you doing the things that you're doing and yet? It like works for the movie because it keeps you engaged as a viewer where you keep asking yourself, like, why is he doing the things that he's doing and and and you you're trying to learn about him as a character and and you get to the point where you realize he has this grim optimism of like, I'm going to do whatever it takes to to solve the murder of my wife. All right.

45:18 Brad, is there anything else about the movie itself you want to talk about? I have like a fun closing segment for us, but. Is there anything within the movie itself, the direction, the cinematography, anything that you want to make sure we talk about first? I really like Stephen Tobolowsky and Harriet Harris as Mr. and Mrs. Jancus. Yeah, they were excellent. Like the those were probably some of my favorite parts of the film when he's like explaining the story of of Sammy Jancus. Yeah, cool. Good. Good observation, man. Nailed it. Thanks for the great, great, you know, little kick back there.

45:58 I love the way we have dialogue, Bob. It's a lot of fun. Yeah, well, you've been criticizing dialogue this whole episode, so I'm trying to eliminate any between us here. I mean, if I wanted to do dialogue the way Guy Pierce talks on the phone, I would go, well, First off, I would wait like 3 seconds after you talk and then I would go, wow, yeah, Bob. That's what I think about it too. Shut up, dude. It's not that bad. It's pretty rough, man. OK, here's my question for you, Brad. I don't know if this is a fun segment, but the more I think about this movie, the more that it really puts an incriminating light on another movie that I really, really love. And that movie is Martin Scorsese's Shutter Island, because they are the same movie, like, like every single thing about the plot of both movies.

46:48 Is the same, and I think that's why Shutter Island received such kind of lukewarm reviews when it was first released. I think critics are coming around to it now more because of what Scorsese did than anything in the script. But that was a book written by Dennis Lehane, the guy that also wrote Gone Baby Gone and Mystic River, and I love all of those movies. But I got to say, the guy really just ripped off Memento. I don't think that Shutter Island was written prior to Memento coming out. I'll have to look at the release date, but in any case, it is a huge coincidence that those movies both end up being about a guy with a dead wife who is trying to find her killer, who goes into these shady environments and is then told that you know, he was the cause of the whole thing.

47:36 You find out at the end of both movies. Spoiler alert, I guess. That they are both the one that killed their own wife and they could not live with the grief. And so they invented kind of alter egos for themselves. And in this movie it's this, you know, this John G character in Shutter Island. It was what's the guy's name that they're searching for latest? He's looking for a guy named latest in that movie. And then he finds out that his name is actually Edward latest, right? His name's Teddy in the movie. There's a Teddy in this movie. I don't know. If I should have less respect for Shutter Island, and I'm wondering what your thoughts are because I know that we both mentioned Shutter Island at one point while we were watching Memento. Yeah, I I don't know if I would say Shutter Island and Memento are like as much of A Onetoone comparison for me. Shutter Island feels much, much more like A Beautiful Mind in in like the detective nature of it, like this one. Doesn't really feel like a detective movie to me, which I I know sounds weird, but it's so strange, the chronology of it, that you quickly realize this isn't about him. Like, figuring it out.

48:52 It's about Nolan being cool as a director and like, doing the movie backwards. OK, so take wait. Take the genre out of it though, and even to some extent the structure. Like if you were doing a Brad explains. On the plot of Shutter Island and a Brad explains on this movie, which you just did. And you laid this movie out chronologically when you did your Brad explains like you got to at least admit that almost beat for beat. These movies follow the exact same story. I don't know if they do that. Like for me, I I don't know. I don't think that Shutter Island and this film remind me of them a lot at all.

49:34 Yeah, I I don't feel like you're not. To some extent. I don't know that you're answering my question. Like if you took the plot of Forrest Gump and made it a horror movie, like they still have the same plot. You know what I'm saying? Like it's. It's memento if you turn Forrest Gump into a horror film. Is that what you're saying? No, I'm saying that you can take any movie and replicate the plot and make it a different genre, but that doesn't negate the fact that they still follow the same beats like. These movies follow the exact same story beats, and there are, I think, too many similarities between them to not at least confront that head on. And I was going to, you know, I thought that you'd be more cooperative with this segment. This has been a huge flop for me, but.

50:14 I'm going to. I'm going to give you one last push back, Bob. Any detective movie has the same beats. He did it. Oh, wait, no, he didn't. Oh, wait, it was her. Oh, wait, it wasn't. Oh, wait. Now there's the twist. This is who actually did it. You pissed me off so much, dude. Like, literally, you're not even engaging with what I'm saying I was going to be. With what you're saying, I literally just, I'm like, yeah, almost all detective movies have the same beats. OK, but it. Doesn't make me. Like most detective movies, that they're, most detective movies don't have anything to do with the hero getting convenient amnesia after murdering his own wife and the big reveal being that he murdered. His own wife and then constructed an identity for himself to not deal with the grief. Like there are very few movies where that is the big reveal. Maybe.

51:01 Sure. All right. God bless it. I was going to come in at the end and be like, well, actually I you know what I don't have? I haven't lost respect for Shutter Island because at the end of the day, I think that if you're going to blame anybody for Shutter Island being similar to this movie, it would be Dennis Lehane for writing the story. But Scorsese directs the hell out of Shutter Island, and I think that Shutter Island is a much better directed movie than Memento is. And that was going to be my big segue into us doing let's make it a double in our final scores. But I guess to try to redeem this segment, I will say, Brad, do you agree with me that Scorsese directing Shutter Island does a better job than Nolan directing Memento?

51:45 A million times yet. OK, well there, that's the that's the easiest take in the world. Shutter Island is way better directed film, and just a better movie altogether than than Memento is. Well then, let's get into. Let's make it a double. We're near the end of the episode, so thanks for listening to the film and whiskey show. Let's ever know the film with this one, even if it's struggling. It's a final segment of the day. Now let's make it a double. Let's make it a double is the part of the show where we pick a movie to pair up with this one to make the perfect double feature. Brad, I'll let you go first since Shutter Island apparently is nothing like this movie. So I'll scramble to think of something else while you give us your perfect pick. I'll give you this, man.

52:29 I I like Shutter Island way better than Memento. They just don't remind me of each other. I'm going to pick The Truman Show 1998. Jim Carrey. I think that that film has enough in common of a man whose life isn't anything like what he thought it was. And I I think that there's some good similarities there that make it the same movie, and we should probably put down Memento because of it. So The Truman Show. I'm going to go noir with this one. I'll go way back to like the 1940s. I'm going to pick a movie called DOA, which is a movie about a guy. It's a really cool movie, Brad. It's about a guy who gets poisoned somehow with some sort of radioactive something, and he finds out that he has like 24 hours before he dies and he has to figure out who poisoned him before he croaks.

53:19 It's a really good movie. You can't trust anybody. Motives are always called into question. I just we don't do a lot of noir on this podcast. And any chance that I get to plug, like, Really Hard Boiled, Mean Spirited Noir movies, I will do so. I'm going to pair it up with DOA. Brad's going to pair it up with The Truman Show. Now Bob, you have to be clear here because DOA could be referring to 1980 Eight's Dennis Quaid Meg Ryan starring film. That is the remake. Of the 1949 verse, is it 49 the original? 49 Yes, Or you could be talking about 2006, dead or alive. No, I'm referring to DOA, which in most parlance refers to dead on arrival.

54:05 So that's the one I want 49, not the Dennis Quaid, not the 2649. Just just making sure we're clear here. I know we've had some miscommunication with. My gosh, you are just full of sass today Sir. Let's get to final scores. I'll let you go first so that I can I can calm my nerves over here. I think that the idea of Memento is way cooler than the actual film Memento. Like the the idea of it is really fascinating and really, really like draws you in. And the final 20 minutes of the film are like far and away the peak that this film has to offer.

54:48 The rest of it's just okay. Like and like on the lower end of just okay. I'm going to give it a 7 out of 10 Bob. But it was entertaining. Like it was fine. But it I don't think it's a movie I would ever want to come back to. I'm way higher on this movie than I thought that I would be. I was thinking about giving it an 8.5. I don't think I'm going to go that high because like I said, for a good chunk of the movie I was like, this is a four, what the heck, man? And it got to the ending, and the ending was so good that I have been left with this existential question of like, does a perfect ending cover a multitude of sins, right? Like how much does a perfect ending improve? A four out of 10 movie and I think by the time the ending came around, I was at least at like a six out of 10. But this movie has really serious flaws with it. But it is so brilliantly constructed and the ending is so good that I think people are willing to forgive a lot with this movie.

55:44 I'm willing to forgive most of it, but I think you do have to keep in mind that this is not a perfect film. And so I'm going to come out to an 8 out of 10 way higher than I thought that I would be. And I will say to the film's credit. I've been thinking about it almost nonstop since we watched it. The problem is that sometimes I thought about it from the point of view of, like, does that even make sense? Like, did they only do that one thing because it's cool to not tell the audience that? Not every thought that I had about this movie has been positive, I guess is what I'll say. But at the end of the day, I've been thinking about it, and that is a largely positive thing to say. So I'm at an 8. Brad's at A7. We are coming out to once again a very easy to average 7.5 out of 10.

56:28 Bob, do you want to know what movie I've been thinking about that I watched like two or three days after Memento? What's that? Bicycle Thieves? Brad, look at you. Do you like it? Big fan, like 9 out of 10? Absolutely love that movie. I don't know if there's ever been a better film. That captures the, like, hopelessness of being in poverty. So just beautiful. Also, we've talked about Haley Joel Osman in The Sixth Sense is the best child performance ever. Whoever the little kid is who plays Bruno might be the cutest child ever caught on film.

57:09 Brad, I you know, once again, I don't mean to disparage or demean you, but like, what led to you watching The Bicycle Thieves? Because that seems like a movie that I would have had to pull teeth to get you to watch. Like what? What made you stumble upon that one? I was. I had a week off. I was up in the Akron area with my wife and kiddos and I was like just looking through HBO Max. And they have a Turner Classic movie section. And I was looking for something to watch. And I saw Bicycle Thieves and I was like, you know, that like I I looked back. I think it's like #38 on the most recent sight and sound pole. And a lot of people have it like in their top ten. And I was like, you know, I'm going to give it a try. It it is.

57:52 But, you know, it really tips me into watching it, Bob. What's that it's like? 83 minutes and I was like less than less than 90 a man. All right man. So we are coming out to a 7.5 on Memento. I would really like to talk about the bicycle teams with you someday, but you got to save it for the pod, man. Can't give it all the way here. I'm so sorry. Let us know what you think about Memento Brad. We are definitely lower than most people on this movie. I think this has around an 8, either an 8.3 or an 8.4 on IMDb. It's definitely in their top 250. It's dude. I think it's in their top like 20-5 or third. That's crazy. It has an 8.4 on IMDb and is. It's not that good guys.

58:38 I will say that in that group of movies that are like they hit late Gen. X, early millennials at the right time and they were like cool guy movies, I think this might be the best of the bunch. Like, I think this is a better movie than Fight Club, or at least that it works better for me than Fight Club did, but. I still lump it in with those movies the like Boondock, Saints, Fight Club, Memento, even The Matrix to some extent. But The Matrix is just a way better movie than any of these. I I just, I've never understood why we inflate that group of movies in the cultural like consciousness. Because regardless of the fact that I like it better than you Brad. This is not one of the 25 best films ever made.

59:19 What are you people talking about? So I will say I will. I was wrong. I just looked it up. But I'm going to make you angry Bob. This movie is number 55 on IMDb at with an 8.4 is at #55 right in front of In Order Django Unchained, Indiana Jones and Raiders of the Lost, Art and and Wally all. All three all better than this. Way better films than Memento. Well, film and Whiskey Nation, I think we've given you some fuel. Do you agree or disagree with us about Memento? You can find us on our social media accounts, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, or TikTok at. Filmwhiskey or you can jump onto a Discord. We are on there every single day talking to you guys, the fans of the Film and Whiskey Podcast.

1:00:05 So if you want to join the conversation on Discord, you can find a link to it at the end of every single one of our show notes. Next week we will be back with a very special guest talking about a movie that I have a contentious relationship with and that is one of Nolan's highest regarded films, The Prestige. Join us next week for that, but until then, I'm Bob Book. I'm Brad G. And we'll see you next time.