Joker / Benromach 10-Year Single Malt Scotch

0:00 In 2019, director Todd Phillips and star Joaquin Phoenix gave the world the darkest film we have ever watched. In 2025 we take a return trip to Scotland for the first time in weeks. The I like the way you put that, Like we just, yeah, we just hang out in Scotland pretty often. It's been too long, Brad. Too long. The film is Joker. The whiskey is Ben Romack, 10 year. And we'll review them both. This is the film. And Whiskey podcast.

0:53 Welcome to the Film and Whiskey podcast, where each week we review a classic movie and a glass of whiskey. I'm Bob Book. I'm Brad G. And this week we are throwing it back about five years here, Brad. Well, a little more than five years I guess, which is crazy to think about. I remember when Joker came out, obviously, but it was pre COVID and those COVID years, we've said it many times on this podcast, just really screwed with my perception of time. It's weird to think that this movie's already been out for five years because it feels like it was, you know, maybe two years ago. I don't know, maybe it's just me. Yeah, I mean, according to Tarantino, 2019 was the last year that cinema existed.

1:34 So that like this just feels like an epoch ago. Which is crazy because Tarantino also happened to just release a movie in 2019. He got his movie in just under the wire before cinema night. Yeah. Funny how that happened. What what a coincidence. All right, so today we're looking at Joker and folks, I'm going to lay all my cards out on the table right after this little teaser. Welcome into film in Whiskey. If this is your first time listening to us, we talk about movies, we talk about whiskey this season, we're looking at movies from the last 20 years and we're asking the question, does this movie deserve to be considered a modern masterpiece? Joker is a really interesting document, Brad, of, I guess the late twenty 10s, early twenty 20s.

2:22 It's, you know, obviously still really relevant to our times. They just came out with the sequel this past year that was pretty universally panned and flopped hard at the box office. So Joker is still somewhat top of mind for people. But I wanted to lay my cards out on the table by saying this, Brad, I watched this movie. I think it's a pretty well made movie. I don't have quite the visceral hate for it that it seems like a lot of movie critics have, but I will say that I don't know if I've ever been less excited to start watching a movie for our show. I definitely at multiple points this week could have started this movie and just decided against it 'cause you really gotta get yourself in a specific frame of mind to take in this movie. Yeah, I watched this film maybe a year ago and was impressed with a lot of the craft of the film and highly unimpressed with the message.

3:23 So coming into this time, I was really curious where I would be. I I don't know if I quite had the trepidation to get into it that you did. It's definitely a hard movie to make yourself watch. Yeah. And it's not filmed with the sort of like, hatred for humanity that someone like a David Fincher has. But it definitely reminds me of watching a movie like 7, where you just come out of that movie and you feel real icky, and you feel like you need a shower. And there's not a lot of rays of hope happening at the end of this movie. So we're going to dive into it. We're going to talk about it a lot. But Brad, I, I'm really curious to hear what you think of Joker. So maybe for the earliest time this season, we're at the four minute mark.

4:09 I think. Let's just jump right in and let's get into, Brad explains. Brad's going to give us the movie plots with only 60 seconds sticking on the clock, so let's go ahead and do your take with this little segment that we call, Brad explains. Brad Explains is the part of the show where Brad breaks down the plot of the film that he has just seen often for the first time. Now, this is of course, Brad's second time watching this film. It's not really a super complicated plot, Brad, and we will discuss how it seems to be a plot that's reused a lot, but it should be something that you can handle in 60 seconds, no? I I think I have this Bob. By the way, nice sultry voice you have there today, Brad. That's what happens when you get sick, Bob. Dude, I I have never gotten sick with the frequency that I do now after having children.

5:00 It's like, and I thought that it worked that such that like kids get sick a lot because their immune systems haven't built up the tolerance, but I as an adult should have the talt. Like why am I getting sick all the time? Yeah, I It's because kids are dirty, and not only do they fray your last nerve, they also fray your bodily health. It's wild. And that's our endorsement for parenthood, folks. Dude, if anybody's, if anybody's out there listening, have kids. It's the absolute best thing in the world. Yeah, you get to sound like this, Bob. You gave such a glowing endorsement that I'm sure that really rings true with most people now. All right, Brad, let's dive into Joker. So you have 60 seconds on the clock, folks. We are going to spoil this whole movie. So if you haven't gotten around to seeing the Best Picture nominee Joker, hit pause, go watch the film, and then come back and rejoin us for the rest of the episode. Brad, one minute and go.

5:55 Joker is a film about an evil society that tramples a poor man into absolute terror. The end. The end. Boom. Bad society, Bad society. OK. How do we want to frame today, Brad? I've been kind of sending you little tiny fragments of thoughts I have on this movie throughout the day. And I have so many thoughts, but I don't really know how to construct an episode out of them. It feels weird to just jump into like performances because there's really only one performance we need to talk about in the movie. And obviously Joaquin wins best actor for this movie. I think we would both agree that he does a pretty phenomenal job, right?

6:38 Like I I don't have any complaints about his performance. I have lots of complaints, lots of thoughts about the movie that he is in so. Personally, I I think we need to spend at least 10 minutes talking about Sam Morel and his role in the film. Who is that? He's the You've never heard Sam Morel. No. Oh bro, I thought you were in a stand up. He's the comedian that's on stage right before Arthur Joaquin goes up and he's he's talking about, you know, how men and women view sex. You know what, there's also a comedian or before him, Gary Goldman, who's like a long time working comedian. That's that was in the movie.

7:24 So I was like, oh, I recognize him. OK, so there you go. Let's talk about stand up comics who make brief cameos, but not, crucially, Joaquin Phoenix. So here's the thing. Here's the thing with Joaquin, like he reflects the absolute I, I mean, obviously he sets the tone, but in a lot of ways, I feel like the this whole movie is an overindulgence and his performance is just that. Now am I saying it's a bad performance? Like not in any stretch of the imagination. I think Joaquin does incredible things. I I think his ability to have like 3 different laughs for the joker based on like what's going on around him is incredible.

8:15 The scene where he kills Randall and then is helping the the dwarf that is also a clown get out of the apartment. It like I think Joaquin just freaking knocks it out of the park, dude. But I once again, I, I think my struggle with this film will never be I, I don't know if I can separate the darkness of this film and the message that I think is so wrong and terrible from Joaquin's performance. Well, then maybe let's just go ahead and start diving into messaging in this movie because I've been really struggling with why the movie doesn't totally click for me.

8:57 Why doesn't it work? And why do I feel like this movie is irresponsible in the way that it handles its themes? Because, you know, I was, I was saying earlier that it kind of lifts plot elements. And the thing that it was most accused of copying off was early Scorsese, especially a movie called The King of Comedy. And then prior to that, Taxi Driver. And the movie really does follow the structure of Taxi Driver. And so I understand that people accuse it of ripping those movies off. I don't necessarily think it does that. I I didn't think so on this viewing at least. But when I compare it to a movie like Taxi Driver, the reason Taxi Driver works is because from the very beginning of the movie, not only do you understand that Travis Bickle is an unstable person, but you never view him or anything he does in terms of like, heroic framing.

9:52 They never use the language of film to establish his actions as heroic. And so even at the end of the movie, when you have that kind of like, darkly humorous epilogue where it turns out Travis didn't die, and not only did he not die, but he's getting like letters of commendation and being viewed as a hero by the public, it's like, oof, that hits even harder because there are people like this among us. That's kind of what they're trying to go for with Joker. But I think that Todd Phillips uses cinematic techniques that set the Joker up in such a way that the audience is sympathizing with and rooting for him, even as you watch him do, like, horrific stuff. It's not that you want to be rooting for him, but I feel like this movie is framing itself almost as like a good triumphing over evil or a guy overcoming the obstacles, but the obstacles are like innocent people that he shoots to death. It's just it's a very confused messaging. Well, I, for me, I walked away this second time watching it and I was just kind of like, I feel like this is like a very radical socialists fever dream.

11:12 Like the idea that rich young stockbrokers that are in their like late 20s, like just because they are mean to a lower class citizen, if you will, on the subway, we can assume that they are just terrible people in their entire lives and they deserve to die. And, and it just, you know, continues to spiral from there. And I really, really struggle with this viewpoint that the world is just this inherently nihilistically dark place that pretty much everybody is evil or broken in their own ways and deserve death.

11:59 And they deserve death because of these supposed sins that they have committed. Yeah, man, it's, it's a struggle for sure. And I I will also say on the stockbroker front, the three guys that he murders on the subway, surprisingly very adept at musical theatre. I would not have expected those three finance Bros to know Stephen Sondheim to the extent that. They I, I agree with that and I think that's like a very, it's a good call out Bob because it's, to me, it points out the weirdness of this movie and how it doesn't feel like he can really stick to a tone or like an identity for the people in the movie. It just feels like he's kind of throwing a lot of stuff in there that he wants to see.

12:49 Yeah. And well, and I feel like getting back to the theme thing, like I say that it's confused because I feel like, and again, it, I'm not trying to say that I know Todd Phillips's mind, but it almost feels like the things that he wants us to be kind of chewing and marinating on are really underdeveloped. And the things that he doesn't intend to be poking through are the things that actually do poke through. And I mean that like thematically. So I think it's pretty clear. And you kind of called this out when you're talking about it as like a socialist fever dream. I think that this movie wants to kind of toe the line of being political and being like what it perceives to be timely. Obviously this comes out during the first Trump administration and you have at the beginning of the movie a a lower class man whose mom only watches the news, doesn't have friends, but watches the news all day and and says this billionaire is such a good guy.

13:47 He's going to save us all. He's he should be in government. Like it feels like Todd Phillips is trying to hint at like a Trumpian figure. No, Rob, definitely, definitely not. But then they also do the thing of like, but we're going to set it in 1980. So it's not current times. And it feels like they're hedging. Like if you're going to make a movie that is intending to be some kind of either social satire or just like a social commentary, you got to give it some teeth, dude. Like make it a little more biting than this, whether or not the audience ends up eating that up. Like you have to go whole hog on that. And it feels like at every step they want to be controversial, but then they want to make him an empathetic figure. They want to be bold, but then they want to soften it with, you know, traditional filmmaking techniques. They want it to be timely, but we're going to set it in the past so that it can't be a one to one. And it just constantly feels like a guy that wants to, like he wants to muddy up the waters a little bit, but he's too afraid to do so.

14:48 I also think that this movie works way better if in in pairing with what you just said, like make it more direct. If that's what you're trying to say. Get rid of the DC of it all, yeah? Let's talk about that. Like don't make this a movie about Joker like 100% you could make this movie 100% the same, including all the clown stuff. Like he can be a clown on the streets of 1980s New York totally fine. But like why in the world did this have to be a comic book movie? It literally makes continues to make zero sense to me. Well OK, so this might be a good place to touch on the sequel a little bit.

15:35 And I know you haven't seen the sequel. I might be like one of the five people that don't absolutely hate the sequel. It is at least 1/2 hour too long. It is very boring, but it is a much more direct and coherent like Vision from Todd Phillips, because I think he basically, he basically thought like people misinterpreted what I was trying to do with my first movie. So I'm going to use the entirety of the second movie to under score that this man is not a hero. And in fact, he's like the biggest loser on earth. And that's like like the the second movie is punishing towards towards Arthur. Oh, that's honestly Bob, that's partially fascinating to me because I, I feel like you walked into that movie theater like a wolf into a sheep pen, like you were just salivating at the opportunity to hate on that movie. So I'm impressed First off that you, you gave it its due process if you will.

16:30 Secondly, I, I don't know about you, Bob, I walked away from watching Joker thinking, man, not only is Arthur Fleck a loser, he is a sociopathic murderer. That is not a hero, correct? Should not be lionized. Well, and that's getting back to your whole thing about the DC of it all. So it feels like they're trying to shoehorn in these references to Bruce Wayne to, you know, Thomas Wayne. So like all these people. And it doesn't really work because even at the as the movie comes out, Todd Phillips is saying like, we're leaving it ambiguous as to whether this guy really is the Joker that you know, or whether he's just going to inspire the Joker.

17:15 And it's like, so this isn't even ADC character. He's just a guy. And again, not trying to spoil the whole second movie for you, Brad. It's made very clear in the second movie, this guy's not the Joker. So what are we doing here? I don't know if you know this but it's like next on my list. There's no way I can go another day in my life without. Seeing Joker fully idea, it would only be better if it was directed by Denny Villeneuve. Only better is a correct phrasing if it was directed by Denny. So yes, the DC of it all kind of pisses me off a little bit too, because the movie definitely works better without the DC references. However, I think we have to be honest and say like, this movie also doesn't gross a billion dollars without the DC connection.

18:04 So yeah, I don't, I don't know. Yeah. If if you want to make money, you know make a comic book movie in the 20 teens. If you don't want to make money, make a comic book movie in the twenty 20s. Yeah, that's that's true. They once again, they got it in right under the wire right before cinema ended. All right, So Brad, we've we've kind of set up some of our trepidations with the movie. Our our peccadillo's with the movie. I don't know man, where do you want to go from here? Like Joaquin's very good. This movie is very confused. Should we jump into things we liked? Should we keep trying to explore what it is that makes this movie not work? I'm not sure. Yeah, I mean, I'm curious how you feel about De Niro. Like he's the only other actor, like really in the movie. His mom is in it a little bit.

18:53 I'm very curious where you're at on De Niro on Late Night Show host De Niro. Well, let's talk about the De Niro performance and let's talk about the character of Murray Franklin. So as De Niro's gotten older, he's obviously, I think leaned into the fact that like he doesn't have to memorize his line so much anymore. He improvises a lot. This really felt like he showed up on set and it was his first time reading any of his lines. Like there were some really awkward line readings from him in this movie. So I think it's a bad performance. I also think that he doesn't have late night host vibes at all. He's not a charismatic guy. And why is Murray Franklin such a Dick? Why is his show like set up to be mean to regular people? That's not how late night TV works. Exactly that.

19:44 That to me was the biggest, like, bizarre decision of the writing team where I'm like, yeah, IA 100% believe that Joaquin Phoenix and Francis Conroy are like watching late night TV host together and falling asleep to it. That is very believable. I don't know, man. Maybe the 80s were just a lot meaner than we know about. Like maybe, you know, all these late night show hosts were just being absolute DS to their guests. It seems to me, though, based on clips that I've seen from late night television of this, you know, 60s, seventies, 80s, that these are some of the most congenial, charismatic, like fun to be around guys in the world. And De Niro is basically like if Travis Bickle got about two steps more charismatic.

20:40 Well, and they're obviously getting De Niro to be in the movie to have something to kind of volley against the accusations of them ripping off Taxi Driver in King of Comedy. It's like, oh, well, now he gets to be the late night host instead of the comedian. And it's like, OK, cool, you made a little meta joke. But I just don't think he's the right guy for this role, man. Did you see that they tried to get Leo to play Arthur Fleck opposite of De Niro? I don't know if that would have worked as well. I actually, I, I really think Phoenix is good for what they're trying to do with this character. Like, I, yeah, even that very first shot of him putting his make up on in the mirror and forcing his fingers into his mouth to make himself smile and you get the teardrop.

21:22 It's like, oh, I know everything I need to know about this guy. Yeah, that that scene was apparently just completely like, there's nothing in the script about him crying. Joaquin just, like, walked on the stat, pulled his face up into a smile and a tear fell out of his eye. And Todd Phillips is like, all right, next scene. Moving on. We, we got it, dude. Brad. OK, so here's where I want us to go today. I think that I still have more complaints. As always, I want to center them around the ending of the movie and why the ending of the movie is what makes this movie so problematic. And I'm not even talking about the climactic gunshot. I'm talking about what happens after that.

22:04 But in order to do that, I think this is a good time to go ahead and press pause and drink some whiskey. We're a little bit early, but if I'm going to talk any more about this movie, I need a drink, dude. I'm with you man, Let's do it. All right, so today we are checking out Ben Romach space side single malt Scotch whiskey. Ben, I almost called you Ben because I'm talking about Ben Romach. Brad. I looked up a video of how to properly pronounce it just to make sure I wasn't going to stick my foot in my mouth here. And they, they have the the chapter at the end of Ben Romach is like aspirated. It's not quite as, it's not quite as throaty as like a Hoff in Hebrew, but it's, you got to say Ben Romack. So I've been.

22:52 Practicing. No man, I like drinking my Ben Romack. Ben rematch 10 years. So this is a space side whiskey Brad, it's been a minute since we've had a space side. I am very excited for this because we've always said space side tends to be kind of like the most like delicate of the scotches that we've tried. At least Highland packs a little bit more of a punch. And then obviously you've got your Isla, you know, among the other couple regions. But it's been a minute and we've never tried Ben Romack. This is their entry level 10 year version. They also have, I see on their website a 15 year and then they've got super premium ones that are in the 20s. Brad, what can you remember about the space side scotches that we've tried to this point?

23:34 Man, I, I mean, I really don't remember much about our space sides. Is is Abrilower a space side? Yeah, so I, I do remember really enjoying the Abirlowers. For me, they had a lot of like Berry notes and like a very beautiful floral delicacy to them. Yeah, I'm with you, dude. That's exactly what I pick up on space sides as well. And it's funny because as we transition into the nose on this one, I actually get a little bit more like a peat smoke on this one than I think I've ever gotten on a space side before. Brad, I think you've tried it already. I'm drinking it live so I've given one nosing note, but I'm going to go ahead and stick my nose in this class while you give your notes.

24:24 Bob, I am going to give you one of the best nosing notes of all time. This reminds me of Honey Smacks. Oh wow. Right. Like they're so good but they like even when I ate them I felt like it was the poorest I ever felt as a kid. Yes exactly. This seems like poor people food. Like Great Depression era cereal. Yeah, so honey smacks quite, quite the endorsing opinion there, Bob. There is a bunch of vanilla here. It's got like a really nice thick cherry, syrupy vibe on the nose. There's some cranberry, there's some plum. I overall, it's a really pleasant nose that has me intrigued.

25:12 I'm going to give it a 7 1/2 out of 10. Yeah. I'm going to be just a little bit lower than you. I meant just a 7 out of 10. When I first poured it out, I got like really bright orange and and cinnamon notes that definitely had the Pete smoke to it as well. And then it kind of like it started to get a couple funky notes on it. I get some almost raw, like yeasty dough on it. I get some, there's some kind of wood that I can't like put my finger on, but it smells like a wet, almost like balsa wood and like it. It was a really weird note for me to get. I like it. I wish that it was a little more in that kind of delicate fruity realm that we like. So I'm just in A7 and hoping that it gets better on the taste. I think the palette is incredible.

25:55 There is plum. There's like a really nice cacao note kicking through the entire experience. It reminds me a little bit of like a Rice Krispie treat, like a like a sugary, grainy vibe there. There is a lot of really nice flavors. It's not overwhelmingly complex, so somewhat simple in its presentation, but I'm going to give it an 8 out of 10 Bob. Wow, this is way smokier than I would have expected just looking at the bottle and seeing the word space side. If you had told me that this was like a more lightly peated Isla Scotch, I believe you. But this doesn't remind me of any of the space eyes we've had to this point. Which is fine. Like you don't have to mimic other distilleries with the product you're creating.

26:39 It's just kind of throwing off my mental expectations here, so I'm trying to readjust a little bit. I definitely get a much more vegetable, much more medicinal note towards the back end. It's got like that kind of woody grass type note to it, not quite Piney, but in that realm it has that almost like ashy cigarette kind of taste towards the back as well. But I will say it's got a layer of sweetness that helps to offset that a little bit so it doesn't tip fully bitter at the end. I like this quite a bit. I think I'm just still resetting what I was expecting it to be. I'm going to come up to a 7.5 on the pallet. I think the finish is really nice. I think that there's a little bit of oakiness to it. It gets kind of spicy at the end. There is that for me it turned into that vegetal note almost almost into a dilly type of region. Overall pretty good finish, drops off a little bit from the nose and the taste.

27:41 I'm going to give it a 7 out of 10. Yeah, I like the finish. I don't really have a lot of notes on this one. It doesn't feel like a super complex whiskey to me. It does get bitter and it does get kind of overly like it's, it's so smoky that it almost comes back around into sourness. I don't quite know how to explain that. But like the flavors that are left a minute after on the back of my palate are turning sour. And so I think that this is kind of like if this was an Isla Scotch, I would think it's an underwhelming experience as a space side Scotch. I kind of think it's a little bit of an underwhelming experience and it's so far out of the wheelhouse of what we've come to identify space side as that it feels kind of like a bottle floating on its own out in between Space Side and the I Love region.

28:28 I have no idea what to make of this. I'm going to give it a 6.5 on the finish. I'm going to give it just a 7 out of 10 on the balance. Brad, did you give a balance score? I didn't. I'll I'll give it a 7 1/2 on the balance. I think there's good flavors that all work together really well and I like, I'm a fan. I I like this Bob, I found this. It seems like you can get it for around $50.00 in the States, which is, I think an eminently reasonable price for this whiskey. Yeah, I'm going to, man. I'm going to purposely fudge my numbers, Brad. I'm going to ruin the integrity of my scoring structure here because right now I'm at a 28 out of 40 and I think that the price on this is extremely fair.

29:17 Like I was going to give it a 7 out of 10. It's only A7 because I don't really like it that much. But if we're just talking like if you had to buy this blind without ever tasting it, it's like a nine or a 10 out of 10 on value. However, if I do give it a seven, I would be at a 35 out of 50, which is where we start recommending a product and I, I don't think I recommend this one, Brad. So I'm I'm going to give it a six, keeping me at a 34 out of 50. You just said this could be a nine out of 10 value. Yeah, it could be. And then you gave it a six. Yeah, that. That's the brakes, dude. Dude this is like. As the Joker would say, that's life. That, that is life Bob.

29:58 It didn't have to be that way. You could have chosen otherwise. This is an 8 1/2 out of 10 on value I like for 50 bucks. This is a really great single malt experience, regardless of if you are Snooty about a regional flavour tasting like what you expect a regional flavour to taste like. Not that I know anybody who's like that. Sure, sure. And in my entire life, Bob, I am coming to a 38.5 out of 50 here. All right, I'm going to, I'm going to 34 out of 50, which is bringing us to an average of a 36.25. So we still landed in the soft recommend range anyway. I will say folks like just the value of it. It really is like A9 or A10.

30:43 I just think that this was kind of a subpar drinking experience, and it's probably the first one that I wouldn't recommend that we've had in a long, long time. Brad. Just not my cup of tea this week. I. Sure, man. Whatever you say, Bob. I, I, I, I have seized. You know how you don't always know what movies I'm going to vibe with? Yeah, you, you throw me curveballs with our whiskey sometimes where I'm like, yeah, Bob's like, yeah, sure. This is this is pretty solid whiskey at a good value. Nah, don't recommend though. I don't think it's that solid. That's the thing. Like it's OK, I just think that like if you could get a bottle of like Talisker 10 for like 60 bucks instead of this Talisker is world's better than this bro. I dude I think the price on Talisker has gone up. I think it's like a $7580 bottle now. And I would agree with you.

31:34 Talisker, 10, is world's better than this. Well yeah, but if it's 80 bucks then I get it man. So it sounds like you definitely recommend though. Would you try? Would you recommend trying it or buying it? Yeah, yeah. Try and buy great great great whiskey. Try followed by it by All right, man, I love it. Let's get back into talking about Joker. What do you say? I would say that Talisker Single Malt 10 Year Old will set you back $75.00 in the state of Ohio. It's all these, it's all these darn tariffs. They just didn't put it on Ben Roma because they don't think it's that good. That's what it was. Tariffs. All right, man, let's get back into talking about Joker. Let's get to it. All right, everybody, that was Ben Romack, 10. An unmitigated success at that $50 price point, don't you think, Bob?

32:28 Whatever you say, man. Also, I'm, I'm just going to take a second and tell you, I can't trill my Rs. That was a good, that might have been the absolute best I have ever done in my life. I'm very proud of myself, right? That was a really good rolled R Man you you still missed the Ch sound but well, I was I. Literally was. I was so impressed with the rolled R that I just was like, I'm not even going to try. No, I know I can do that. It's like you got to quit while you're ahead and you quit mid word I. Sure did, Bob. I sure did. Speaking of things where I quit when I'm ahead, let's talk about two facts and a falsehood, Brad. Is going to try to stumpy ball 2 all right and what is wrong 2 facts and a. Falsehood 2 Facts and a Falsehood is the part of the show where Brad presents me with three items as fact about the making of this movie, one of which is a complete lie. Brad, I'm still riding high off last week's victory in Everything Everywhere All At Once, where I did not enlist our guests help and still got it right. I'm not riding coattails this season, man. I'm doing pretty well.

33:38 Lee Diaz, What a guy. Great guy. Truly what a guy. Go back and listen to that episode if you haven't heard it yet. If you've not ever purchased a bottle on Reserve Bar, I highly recommend that program. Lee, you know heads up the Single Barrel program as well. They pick absolute bangers on Reserve Bar. Dude, excellent whiskey. We're not being paid to say this not. Yet at least like unasked for plug Lee, you're welcome. You do great work and we think you're the best. Also, this is our pilot for advertising for you next season, so you know, send that money bro. There's more where this came from, Lee. Let's get into two facts and a falsehood.

34:19 Fact #1 Early in production, director and writer Todd Phillips wanted Willem Dafoe to narrate the film as a unreliable older Joker, with his takes on the scenes growing more manic as the film neared its conclusion. Fact #2 Early footage shows Arthur walking by a sign for amusement mile Gotham City's version of Coney Island, which features prominently in the original Killing Joke graphic novel. Joker Co creator Bill Finger was partially inspired by a sign for Steeplechase Park in the real Coney Island, which featured a grotesque grinning face. Fact #3 the Super Rats segment on Murray Franklin's show and in the news references Ratcatcher, an obscure D List villain who could mind control rats.

35:08 The character eventually made an appearance in James Gunn's The Suicide Squad. OK, 2 sounds the most factual, so I'm going to say 2 is a fact. Is it one or is it 3? I don't know anything about comic books. 3 sounds absolutely preposterous, but I can't tell if it's preposterous because you wrote it or because comic books are just dumb. Brad, That's that's where I'm at on that one. I think both of those things are probably true. So you're admitting to three being a falsehood. I, I mean, I, I would never ever admit to a falsehood, Bob. Number one also sounds fictional because people have been making like fan art of Willem Dafoe as the Joker for such a long time that it almost seems like it would be kind of like when they had the Juggernaut in that one X-Men Movie and they made him say the I'm the Juggernaut bitch.

36:05 Like it feels like it would be more of a joke than a real thing at this point if Willem Dafoe was the Joker. Does that does that feel like something Ryan Reynolds would do or Todd Phillips though? That's what I'm saying I'm going to say #1 is the falsehood. But I'm really going to kick myself. If you admitted on air to writing #3 and I didn't pick it, but I'm still doing it, man. I'm going to go with number. One Bob. I have never once in my life seen a fan art of Willem Dafoe really as the Joker. Oh yeah, like all over the place, dude. It makes a lot of sense. He would be an incredible joke. Dude you know how they made Logan about like old Wolverine? They they could make Arthur about old Arthur Fleck and have Willem Dafoe play him.

36:57 Well, they can't, if you saw what happens to Arthur Fleck at the end of the second movie. But aside from that, yeah. We Ultimate Universe Multiverse, Bob, they're all the rage. Fact number one is the falsehood. You got it correct. Yes. Do you know why Willem Dafoe works so well as the Joker Brad? Why is that? Bomb he has a gigantic mouth. He like just a huge mouth that like it makes so much sense. As the Joker that is. If that's the only qualification to be Joker, then Cameron Diaz would be an incredible Joker. Well, that's just not kind. Come on man. Dude, I she's a beautiful woman. Yeah.

37:40 Also huge mouth. We could just like, have a Mick Jagger Joker. We could do a Steven Tyler from Aerosmith Joker. Just assemble a team of people with big mouths to be Joker. I have just a bunch of different like it's a multiverse Joker movie. This sounds terrible. We need to stop talking or Disney's going to actually make it. Or Warner Brothers. Or whoever the hell it is they they need. Content. Yeah, they they do need content. Where do you think life is at for superhero films? Because it just feels like they have had their last gasp, for the time being at least. Yeah, I still think there's probably a couple billion dollar movies waiting to be rung out of that.

38:23 The whole thing, like Deadpool this last year, just made a billion dollars plus. Did it? Yeah, dude. And it's like it wasn't a good movie like. Yeah. Most of these are not good movies. And I think the thing about superhero movies is, like, we used to have superhero movies that we all understood would be bad, and then we just had fun with how bad they were. And now we're expected to take them all as, like, serious works of cinema, and they're still bad. So it's like, cool, I just watched an unenjoyably bad movie. And I think that's kind of where I'm at with it. I don't want to follow your stupid TV shows. I don't want to go into this Grim Dauer experience and have it be bad like we're we have run our course. That's where I'm at with superhero movies. I I think that's my problem with Joker in a lot of ways, is that I think they actually like the craft of this movie is really well done, Bob that there are so many pieces of this film. I I really truly like, it's just that the entire narrative force of this movie is like completely antithetical to how I see and understand the world.

39:34 And I also think that it's like truly a harmful viewpoint for people to think this way about the world. I like, I think it's bad for society. Well, so let's let's hone in on that a little bit because I've also been thinking of like words like harmful and dangerous. And that's kind of why I brought up my taxi driver parallel in the first half, because this is not the first movie that tries to kind of gut punch you with the unhinged guy who has killed people is actually hailed as a hero. Taxi Driver does that Clock Rick Orange does that. But I think going back to again what I said in the first half, those movies never pretend like their main characters are heroic and they don't use the language of cinema.

40:20 To paint them as heroic. And I think this movie does. And what I can't tell is if Todd Phillips intended that or if like he accidentally made a movie that was like a really good rags to riches story, but then still made that movie go where it does at the end of this. And I texted you at one point and I said maybe it's just because we just reviewed Creed, but this feels like a really effed up version of Rocky. Like it, you know, the it's set around the same time as the original Rocky. There's that level of grime and poverty. But it definite like, here, let me pull up the text I sent you because I phrased it so much better earlier.

41:01 Yeah. And so I don't know if it's just like the guy on the stairs thing that you get in both Rocky or Joker, but I feel like it's presented structurally really similarly to Rocky. It's a rags to riches story. It's about a guy that overcomes the odds. And no matter how much they want you to see it as a descent into madness, the way they filmed the movie is like you're watching the training montage in Rocky. And so when Rocky goes and fights Apollo Creed at the end of the movie, even though he loses, you cheer for him. And in this movie, yes, you recognize, like, on its surface that what Arthur is doing is horrific, but it's almost like they've set you up to kind of be like, well, those maybe those people did deserve it.

41:49 Those people really sucked. And that's a really, really tricky and dangerous tightrope to be walking. And I don't think it does it with much grace. Yeah, you don't know my favorite character in the movie, Thomas freaking Wayne when he punches him in the face in the bathroom. Like, tell me that's not the most John Wayne moment of a modern film you've seen in a while, Bob. Yeah, and The thing is, Thomas Wayne absolutely seemed like a a huge Dick and probably a bad person. You know what though? I didn't see him murdering innocent people. So like, sure, didn't you know? That's where we're at with this movie. If you put hands on my like 8 year old son as well, I'd probably punch you right in the nose too.

42:31 Yep. And so that's why I wanted to talk about the ending of this movie. So Joker goes on the Murray Franklin program after Murray indicates that he wants to basically bring him on just to make fun of him. He has completely lost touch with reality. He's murdered at least five people at this point and admits to murdering people on air and then shoots Robert De Niro in the head, which apparently they do not broadcast that on tape delay. It went out live to millions of people and happened during the middle of a riot, which he also inadvertently sparked. And when they saw him kill this famous celebrity, it was the the spark that lit the flame that caused the revolution in Gotham. And he is now a hero amongst the disenfranchised in Gotham, leading to a maybe reign of terror.

43:20 And that's where this movie gets really weird for me, man, because I don't know how you interpret the ending of this movie as anything more than a valorization of what he has done. Dude, he, he's pulled out of the car like Christ, like he's laid on the hood of an ambulance or a police car. And like the mob gathers around him like, like he is their salvation. And I like, it's that scene that makes me go, man, I don't care what Todd Phillips says. He knew what he was doing. Like you, you can't film that scene and not have the audience see Arthur Fleck as the hero of the film.

44:04 Well, and I think it also opens up a whole bunch of unintended secondary questions of like, OK, let's just say that he's presenting him as as a hero for these people who are already angry. And he's not necessarily condoning the violence, but he's trying to portray this is how it gets when people are beat down for too long. This is what you can come to expect. I can. If you if you want to do that, Bob, go watch Do the right thing. Well, and I yeah, I was just saying I can almost, almost understand that point of view. The problem is that you're also folding in these issues of mental health, which are done really poorly and really sloppily. And you're making this person who admits to being mentally ill and we know probably schizophrenic and has breaks from reality, be the leader of this crusade.

44:52 And so then the secondary question becomes, what is Todd Phillips trying to say, not about the Joker, but about the people who are worshipping him? Are you saying like, are you, are you ultimately saying that all of the poor disenfranchised people who are pissed off are also mentally ill? Because that offense? Like it just seems like there's no good way to interpret this where characters or or even Todd Phillips comes out clean at the end of it because he wrote, he writes himself such a convoluted ending that it, it reflects poorly on him and all the characters. I, I, you know, I don't know if I'm expressing it exactly how I want to, but do you know what I'm saying? Yeah 100% dude. The the reality is you can't walk away from this movie feeling clean.

45:40 Like there is no non dirty way to walk away from this movie. Todd Phillips, for better or for worse, Like I I read AI read a quote from him saying that for him the through line of the film is kindness and how it's like if he had had just one person show him true kindness, maybe this wouldn't have happened. And I'm like, dude, I'm sorry, but like, that's not the message of this movie. Like, you created a grenade. You pulled the pin out and you put it in the hands of the American public. And when it exploded, it's kind of like oopsies. Yeah.

46:21 I wanted to give them a flower, and instead I handed them a grenade. Right. Well, in the, the metaphor I was going to use was almost like, you know, it's like they they drilled a hole into a wall that you need to stick a piece of dynamite into and it has to be placed with precision to blow the whole thing up to collapse it. And I feel like to your point earlier, it is OK to make a movie where everyone in the movie is awful and you're supposed to, as a viewer, come out of it questioning how can humanity be so terrible to each other. There are movies that do that quite well and they're good movies. This movie I it just wants to have its cake and eat it too. It wants to make you think, like, man, the world is such a mean, horrible place. But then it also wants to make you feel not just empathy for the Arthur character as the person who's beat upon, but to root for him as he gets one over on these people through extremely violent and horrific means. And then it's like, well, OK, is your intent to just implicate all of us in how horrible human nature is? Because I think even that could have been done better. It just, it's not done with tact. And in movies like a taxi Driver, like A Clockwork Orange, you take that stick of dynamite and you get it put exactly where it needs to be.

47:33 And it feels like, you know, you use the grenade metaphor, I'll use dynamite. It feels like he's just kind of been juggling the stick of dynamite that he knows is going to explode. And he kind of like, lobs it up against the wall. And he's like, that's close enough. And he walks away and he lets the wall get some damage done to it, but he doesn't do it with precision. And I feel like if you're going to juggle themes like this, you have to do it so much more tactfully than what we have here. Absolutely. And I, I'm curious, I, I, I don't know if you're OK with me moving us into to let's make it a double. Yep. But I I think for me, well. Hold on, let's play the theme song, Brad. Hold on. We're going to do. Let's make it a double. Presented by Blackwood Distilling Company.

48:15 We're. Near the end of the episode. So thanks listening to the film and whiskey show. Let's have another film with this one. Even if it's struggling. It's the final segment of the dinner. Let's make it a double. Let's Make It a double Is the part of the show where we pick a movie to Paris up with this one to make the perfect double feature. Brad, you were on a roll. I, I didn't mean to interrupt you there, but you go ahead and share your double feature with us. I I'm going to pair it with a movie that I think does what Todd Phillips is trying to do. Maybe not in the same like vein. They're not. The two movies are not trying to say the same thing, but I think they both have a slightly nihilistic view of the world. I'm going to pair this with American Beauty. Interesting.

49:00 I I I think both films have artistic merit. The story that they are trying to tell can be interesting at points. I just think that American Beauty does the whole examination of like the thin veneer of the American suburban dream way better than Joker does the harshness of modern society, if you could say that that's what he's fighting against. I think they're both trying to get at like the rot that is at the core of America as they see it. But you're right, I think that American Beauty does it better. And this movie if if what you're looking at is the quote UN quote rot, this movie starts with them in like 1970s New York City basically where it's like the dirtiest a city has ever been. You're already in the rot.

49:52 And so it doesn't really feel like they have to work that hard to convince you of like, everyone's on edge, everyone's crazy, you know. So I'm, I'm with you, man. Now that you've explained it, I like that pairing for mine. I'm going to go ahead and pair it with a movie that I also don't think accomplishes what it wants to in terms of its social critique, and also a movie that's been misinterpreted by Bros and brought into the fold among them and and kind of worshipped among them. And that is a movie called Fight Club Bob. You you know the number one rule. You don't talk about Fight Club I, I will talk about it 'cause I think it's not that good of a movie and. I think I think you're ridiculous. If I've ever given an opinion that most people disagree on, it is it's my Fight Club opinion.

50:35 But I feel pretty similar about both these movies where it's like you're really playing with fire here. And sometimes it's fun and gleeful to play with fire and not care about the consequences. But sometimes it's like you can see the angry men of America wanting to hold on to this thing and misinterpret it. And that can be very dangerous sometimes. And so this this reminds me of Fight Club in a lot of ways. I will say, Brad, as we Segway out of Let's Make It a Double and closer to final scores, I think this is a better movie than Fight Club. And for all the complaining I've done, I think this is like a pretty good movie. Would you agree?

51:18 I would agree. I like the first time I saw this I probably was at like A7 7 1/2 out of 10. I think I've come down a little bit because I just have a hard time assigning value to artistic merit when I think the message itself is just, yeah, gross. Yeah. You know, so I think I'm going to come down a little bit. I do think that there are a lot of parts of this movie that are incredibly well done. I I think that the color palette for the film is actually like, great. Like, I, I think whoever designed the sets and the costumes, they really had a good eye for what Todd Phillips was looking for. I do think Joaquin Phoenix is incredible. I do too.

52:05 I think he's really good man. That I, I looked at the other best actor candidates from this year and that like there are a few other performances that I think are incredible and maybe deserving of it, but it makes a lot of sense that he received this this year. All right, so before you give a final score, let's say goodbye to Let's Make it a Double, which as always, has been brought to you by Blackwood Distilling Company. No matter what movie you paired this up with, you can always make it a double with Blackwood. And as always, if you go to bourbonoutfitter.com/film Whiskey and use our code Film WHISKEY at checkout, you'll receive 5% off a bottle of Blackwood.

52:46 I just had lunch with good friend of shows Zach Johnston who is one of the the main guys at Blackwood. He has given us a few more bottles and guys I have to tell you coming down the Pike they have some really awesome stuff coming. So if you haven't had Blackwood yet, make sure you try it because they are putting out incredible toasted products. We're going to get into final scores here. I just want to remind you, Brad, that this year, 2019, the year cinema died, apparently, according to Tarantino. What a freaking lineup. Here's the Best picture lineup from the 2019 squad. Parasite wins the Oscar Ford versus Ferrari, The Irishman, JoJo Rabbit, Joker, Little Women, Marriage Story 1917 and Once Upon a Time in Hollywood unbelievable lineup of movies I I forgot about marriage story, one of my favorite movies of all time and then I saw it here and I was like, Oh my.

53:49 Gosh, dude, do you think Adam Driver because he was also nominated, do you think he deserves it over Joaquin? No, see, that's a question of head or heart. I would say yes, just because I love that movie so much. But I like, I really do. I have no qualms with Joaquin winning this Oscar. Yeah, I I don't think I do either. He he really poured his heart and soul in and from what I've heard, he's like kind of a method actor, but also still like overall a really nice guy on set. So it seems like he kind of has the best of both worlds. There you go, just like us, with me and you as the hosts on Phil and Whiskey Brad. I'm going to give this movie A7 out of 10.

54:32 I think I could go higher, like a 7.5 doesn't seem unreasonable to me, but I think it's so mishandles the really delicate balance you have to achieve with the themes they're working with that I give it a seven more on like ethical grounds than anything else. I don't think I can go any higher than that. Does that make sense? Yeah, 100%. The I think he's the lead guy at Ebert wrote a review on this and he said a phrase that I really liked. He said that this movie is unforgivably, opportunistically nihilistic. And I'm like, I I think that is a perfect summation of this movie. I can't get down with it.

55:15 I think like artistically it's like an 8 out of 10 morality and like heroization of the main character is like a 2 out of 10. I'll land at a six Bob A. Six. OK, all right, well, we're putting ourselves in the crosshair of a bunch of Bros that really love this movie because we're coming out to a 6.5 on average, but we'd like to know what you think. Joker seems to be a beloved movie by a lot of people, and it seems to be accepted into comic book Canon even though it is not even remotely related to any comic books. So reach out to us. Tell us what you think. Is this a modern classic?

55:57 Oh, you know, usually I I get upset when you cut me off mid sentence, but you've got a really good job of reminding me all the things I've forgotten today. I keep forgetting to ask the most important questions. No, it's not. I this is the closest I would come to saying yes on a movie I've scored this low, but I am going to say no more on principle than anything else. I I think tons of people would say yes. Yeah, I think principle is the thing that like, it's unfair for me to say no because if it's a classic, it's a classic even if I don't like it. But I will say, the goodwill towards this movie has dissipated a lot in the wake of how much people hated that second movie.

56:39 I think over time people will like revisit the first one and be like, OK, it's not so bad after all. But even the people that love this movie hated the second one so much that I think we're in a real Joker rut right now. So for now, and to cover over the fact that this is just my own feelings, I'm going to say no. But once again folks, you can let us know what you think of Brad and my own scoring system for whether or not something could be a classic by reaching out to us on social media, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Tiktok or YouTube at Film Whiskey. Or if you want to talk to us directly about it, you can join our Discord server where we are on every single day talking to you guys, fans of the Film and Whiskey podcast. So if you want to join us, you can find a link at the end of every single one of our show notes. Brad, we've had to reshuffle a little bit with our line up here and it looks like the next movie on our list is supposed to be The Wolf of Wall Street, which we will get to in time. I think I need a palate cleanser after Joker, so I'm going to call Wolf.

57:38 Of Wall Street. Isn't it? I mean, if we were, if we were cleansing our palates with copious amounts of cocaine, then sure, Yeah. But I'm going to say let's slot back in Inside Out for next week. We'll do a Pixar week, and then we will return to the world of debauchery for The Wolf of Wall Street. What do you say? Pour inside out man, it is just like squashed between two hookers right now. You, dude, you're telling me, man. All right, so next week we're going to do some Pixar. We're going to cleanse our palates. We're going to come up for air a little bit before diving back in the cesspool. So we will see you next week for Inside Out, but until then, I'm Bob Book. I'm Brad G.

58:19 And we'll see you next time.