Casablanca (1942) / Elijah Craig Small Batch

0:00 In 1942, director Michael Curtis and star Humphrey Bogart gave the world a love story that was never meant to be. In 2025, we try a whiskey that continues to be great as time goes by. The film is, as Ben Mankiewicz would say, Casablanca. The whiskey is Elijah Craig's small batch. And we'll review them both. This is the Film and Whiskey podcast.

0:49 Welcome to the Film and Whiskey podcast, where each week we review a classic movie and a glass of whiskey. I'm Bob Book. I'm Brad G. And this week, it really is Brad, the granddaddy of them all. I mean, there's there's a very short list of movies that are like, Oh my gosh, I can't believe we're actually talking about this movie. I mean, it was Citizen Kane, The Godfather, Gone with the Wind, and this, like, I just don't think there's anything else even in that echelon. I mean, when your lead actor's name is Humphrey Bow Daddy, I like, yeah. What do you expect? I mean, I mean a true daddy also, am I right? I mean just talk about the man who who launched 1000 ships with his swagger in this movie.

1:35 So good dude, I thought. You were going to comment on his? That is a euphemism and I will not take it back. Are you trying to say that Comfrey Bunker got around in Hollywood? I mean, who's to say? Who's to say, man, we're talking about Casablanca. It is perhaps my favorite movie. It's darn close. It's a movie that I've seen probably no exaggeration 50 times. And it is a movie that I have to take larger and larger breaks from in between viewings now, because I feel that like it is so familiar to me. It's so ingrained and I, I know every line of this movie so much that it's become like really hard to assess. It's like when you get obsessed with an album and you play it to death and then you have to take like a 567 year break from listening to that album before you can come back to it and hear anything new again.

2:28 I'm, I'm kind of at that point with Casablanca and Brad, unfortunately, I'm going to run it right back into the ground again because I was bored on an airplane about two months ago and I was like, I'll watch it now. We're going to talk about it soon enough. I didn't realize there was two months in between. So I watched it two months ago. I watched it today and then I just found out that they're showing it at Regal Cinemas across the country tomorrow. And your boy's an unlimited member, so I'm going to see it again tomorrow. So why not man? It makes sense to me, man. This is the kind of movie that like seeing it three times in a week. A It's not quite a 90 minute film, Bob, but it no, it's just it's close. Just beyond a 90 minute film, it's close.

3:10 So you're not going to spend like 9 hours like you did with Oppenheimer watching it 50 times. True. And secondly, this is an all time classic dude. It's so good, man. And, and Brad, I've my big worry with an episode like this is that we just come in and say things that people have said about this movie for what, 82 years now since it's been released and some change. And I don't want that like it is. It's one of the most highly regarded films of all time. What is there to say about it? Question mark? That's why we brought in a guest today. It's our friend joining us, I think for the third time now, Vince Mancini. Vince, how are you, man? Good to see you again. I'm great, good to see you guys too.

3:50 I actually registered my website on bodaddy.com, so I'm very excited to talk about this movie means a lot to me. Bowdaddy is is much cheaper than GoDaddy. It's Bulgarian GoDaddy, right? Yeah. Sometimes I'm also with my friend and my friends and I'm like, hey man, don't bowdaddy that joint. Pass it around, you know? This is why we bring Vince on off the cuff. It is, but it is. It is weird like the term Bogart like I didn't like. It's hard for me to make that connection. I didn't immediately. I still don't entirely understand where that came from, but I guess. It's, I mean it has to be from him, but like why is he associated with being stingy? I don't, I don't get it.

4:34 I don't either I, I, I guess it's, I think I've looked this up or tried to figure out why that is at some point. And I guess it's just that he's kind of got that like domineering personality. I guess that's the idea. ChatGPT knows. Yeah, well, ChatGPT can make a guess, that's for sure. All right, guys, I want to dive right in. But I want to start with Vince, because like with all of our guests, we send a list of the movies for the season out ahead of time and say, pick a movie. And Vince, I mean, there's kind of obvious reasons that somebody would want to talk about Casablanca because it's just a freaking great movie. But in particular, like, why this movie from the list that we sent you? And hopefully it's not because you secretly hate it and this is like a hot take fest for the year.

5:16 Not at all. And it's like it's one of my favourites. Unlike you have only seen it maybe like 2 to 4 times or something like that. And being, you know, being a film critic for as long as I have, people are always telling you like or expecting you to have seen like every classic or like, oh, you must really like Kurosawa or like Fellini or, you know, pick your pick your movies on like the AFI top 100 that they expect you to like worship all of them. And like most of the time, like most of those movies on those all time lists, like I don't really care that much about I've seen Citizen Kane like multiple times. It doesn't do that much for me, to be honest. And then Casablanca is, I mean, it's, it's like I, I, it's, it's fine.

6:00 It's good. I like, I, I get it, but it doesn't, it's, it's not, it doesn't hold like a special place in my heart. It doesn't like make me feel in the way that like a movie that I love should make me feel. Casablanca. I've only seen it a couple times, but like I had already absorbed all of the things that have filtered out into pop culture. And there's so many like, you know, the the song, the here's looking at you kid, play it again. Sam what she doesn't actually say, but you know, we still get the idea. Like those that all filtered down to me before I ever saw the movie. And then I feel like I saw the movie and it actually delivered in a way that I found super surprising.

6:41 And then I do the thing where like I, I have a memory of how good it is in my mind. And then, and then each time I rewatch it, I expect it to be not as good as I remember. And every time it's like better than I remember. I'm like, God damn, this movie is just like, it's, it gets better somehow. It's each time I think that I lied to myself the last time. Like I realized like no, it's actually that good. Dude, you know. Vince like popping in like a Blu-ray and being like, let's test that theory right now. Yeah. Also, before before Brad, I don't mean to cut you off, but I love that Vince started by saying this is not going to be a hot take fest and then within 30 seconds was like, Citizen Kane doesn't really do it for me, man, you know?

7:24 I mean, it's, I like it. It's just like, you know, I to me, it's not like, OK, this is the greatest movie of all time. I'm like, OK, sure, you know. I I was just saying when it comes to Citizen Kane a it is probably the greatest movie of all time and BI think the thing we walked away from. But and Bob, you can correct me if you're if I'm wrong. I feel like we walked away saying we understand 100% why this is in the conversation, whether or not we feel like it is I. Citizen Kane, you mean? Yeah, I was Citizen Kane. Sure. Yeah, No, I I would agree with that. Like it's, you know, it's, it's innovative and you can sort of see that like when you watch it. Yeah, no the.

8:09 For me, it's like, why? Why the hell is this even in the conversation? What are we doing? The movie for me that I was come back to and I'm surprised by how much I love it and I always expected to get worse is the 6th sentence. Every single time I come back to that movie, I'm like, how is this movie so freaking good? Perfect movie, yeah. And and Brad, I think that this might be a good place to transition into our first segment of the day, which we call, Brad explains. Brad's going to give us the movie plot with only 60 seconds sticking on the clock, so let's go ahead and do your take with this little segment that we call Brad explains. Brad Explains is the part of the show where Brad breaks down the plot of the movie that he has just seen, at least for the second time this season. Brad the the $1,000,000 question. Have you watched Casablanca between season 1 and our revisit today?

9:02 I might have watched it with a group of friends a few years ago. I I feel like I feel like I forced them to watch. I did. I made them watch Casablanca and I made them watch It's Wonderful Life because they hadn't seen it. Because Jordan is in is in dumb dumb and doesn't like watching black and white films. Yeah, cosign for sure, Jordan catching strays on the Film and Whiskey podcast today. You know who you are, Jordan. See, I've never seen It's a Wonderful Life. This is exactly like a perfect point of comparison. My gosh, dude, first of all, I thought you were going to say I've never seen Jordan, but I agree with you guys, which I think would have been the correct thing to say. But Brad, I I've transitioned us into Brad explained so quickly because of something that Vince was talking about, which is the the pop culture bleed of this movie. You know, over the years, it developed such a reputation as perhaps the greatest script ever written. And certainly I would say like in the top five most quotable scripts ever written when you think about the way they've just permeated culture.

10:02 But it's one of those movies where like, you've never seen it and then you sit down and watch it and you're like, Oh my God, I found the Rosetta Stone. You're like, like, there are so many references that I can remember from my childhood growing up watching like Animaniacs or whatever it might be that would make these sly references to Casablanca. And as a kid, you're like, I get that this is referencing something and now I, I've logged here's looking at you kid in the back of my head. But like, once you see it on the screen, it's like, I, I can't think of many movies besides maybe The Godfather that have had such a widespread cultural impact that it affects media globally that they're referencing it in movies on, you know, on other continents that they're referencing it in like children's animation.

10:48 And I'm wondering. If we have like anti anti piracy ads with Casablanca, yeah, that was my first exposure to Casablanca was those anti piracy ads. I've I forgot about that? I, like, I was trying to remember all the things that they've used the musical cue for, and I honestly can't. Like, was that the TCM, like bumper music for a while? Like I know, yeah. I remember when I was like, right before I saw it, I was a teenager and I recognized like, these are images from Casablanca. There was a commercial for Diet Coke where they were drinking a can of diet. And first of all, they don't sell cans of Diet Coke in the movie theater, but they're in a movie theater cracking open a Diet Coke mid movie. And it's when Ingrid Bergman is is like, you wonder why there is no other man in my life.

11:38 And then that the music swells and they sip the Diet Coke and I'm like, wow, what? That movie looks amazing. Then you see the movie and that scene ends with her being like there was and he's dead. It's like, oh now I know why they cut right before that the the close of that line. Also, you watched it and you were like, why is there no Diet Coke in this movie? Yeah, exactly. It it feels like one of those albums where you're like, wow, this had all of these hit singles on it. It's like there's so many, there's so many different moments that have become pop culture staples in it, and you think it's just one, but then you realize it's like 5 or 10 different things. Is this movie The Abbey Road of American cinema? That's what.

12:23 That's the question before us today, Brad. And I bring all this up because I want to know. Like when you first sat down and watched Casablanca, did you have that moment of like, oh, OK, like I recognize now where all these references came from? Or because you lived the sheltered childhood among the two of us, Was that still still lost on you? I, I would say it was mostly lost on me. I, I don't think there was anything in Casablanca that I was like, oh, that's where it's from. There's been a few movies like that throughout the podcast. I mean, heck, This is Spinal Tap is one of them where you're like, oh, yeah, this is the entire, any docu mockumentary of the 2000s.

13:09 It all came from here. So there, there's been a few movies that did that. I think. I didn't need all that, Bob. It's just a great movie, right. Yeah. Like I didn't, I didn't need to have any of those references to be like, oh, this is where it came from. I I just got to watch it and see where all of those things came from. I guess when I compare it to other movies that are on that list, like there's other movies that you watch, you know, like Birth of a Nation, Like I watch it and I'm like, OK, I can see why this is innovative and it is like an important landmark in film history, but it doesn't necessarily do anything for me like emotionally, whereas. This one, Vince.

13:50 Yeah, yeah, in that case, defer for obvious reasons. It's a very good thing. Yeah, in that case. But you know, I like, you know, extrapolating from that example, like there's other movies that you can recognize are groundbreaking in their own way, but they're not necessarily like they don't hit you on an emotional level. And I feel like Casablanca is the ultimate counter example to that. Cause every scene that I remember being like, oh man, this was such a huge emotional moment. And then I wonder like, oh, was I just in a weird place when I saw that? And it's like you said, like it's other people have noted all of those moments before you. And even even with that, like going up against that like level of, you know, like that bar, even at that bar, like they still hit every time somehow.

14:38 I don't know, it's crazy to me. Well Brad, now that the bar has been set for you, you have 60 seconds on the clock to break down the plot of this movie. Filled with spoilers on this 83 year old film. So folks, if you have not gotten around to Casablanca yet, now's probably the time. Let's let's hit pause. Let's go watch Casablanca. I do recommend, think it's a pretty good movie, Brad. It's it's decent. And then come back and join us, Brad, one minute and go. Casablanca is a film that follows Rick Blaine as the owner of Rick's Cafe in the titular city of Casablanca. It is set up as a crossroads of sorts where multiple different characters are kind of meeting in this launching point where many people are trying to escape Nazi Germany to get to Lisbon, which will eventually take them to America. Things really kick off when Rick is given letters of transport that will allow anybody to leave the city. His former lover, Elsa Faust, returns to the city with her husband, Victor Laszlo.

15:46 Hold on. I got. I got hit. Pause. I got it. Elsa Faust is Mission Impossible, I think. That's true. Ilsa Lund. That's a good thing, Ilsa. Lund Faust. It's. Always German. It would be pretty dope if Ilsa was also an assassin. I'm not gonna lie, that might actually improve this movie. It's like the Marvel what's what's the gal that Captain America falls in love with Peggy? Oh yeah. Yeah, Also a secret agent. Also a secret agent. Elsa Lund. Is it Lund? Lund. All right, Elsa Lund comes to Casablanca with her husband, Victor Laszlo, who is a important resistance leader. There is a love triangle between the three of them as Rick determines if he's going to help them escape or try to escape with his former lover.

16:34 Boom, I don't. I'm sorry for derailing, Brad explains. But that's I feel like now the worst part of this is that my love for Ingrid Birdman from this movie has forever been way up here. And I think I may have just unlocked like the only thing that I would have enjoyed better about Casablanca is if it was actually Rebecca Ferguson as Elsa Lund in this movie or as Elsa Faust in this movie. They. Both have some lice grams, you know, and that's what's that's what's. Important. Sure do. I feel like the like The funny thing about Casablanca is like at least growing up not having it, not having seen it when I was a kid or not having it being part of my like cultural repertoire.

17:16 Like it's sort of filtered down to me as like one of these like romantic movies. You know, it was like, oh, Gone with the Wind and Casablanca and whatever other like insert famously romantic movie here. And then you watch it and you're like, this is not romantic at all. It's kind of like a bromance movie if anything. Like it's about 3 dudes that are kind of like figure out how to just like put their put their bromance above their petty jealousies. Put their bromance above the Nazis. That's what we're all called to do, I think. Right. So, yeah, I was before Nazis. That's that's how the the phrase goes. Yeah. I think as I look back on this movie, I'm with you, Vince, in that like, it's always regarded as the greatest romance movie of all time. And it certainly is when you think about the sacrifices involved of the characters.

18:07 But it's much more of an intrigue movie. It's much more of a political movie than I remembered it being. And I think, guys, if we can start, just kick things off with the performances here because they are obviously all iconic performances. I want to start at the top with Humphrey Bogart. Brad, we've done quite a few Bogart films on the podcast. This by far is his most famous performance, I think for good reason. You know, the image of him in that white dinner jacket is like, like, it's film iconography at this point. Like, it is it. You could just cut the silhouette out of it and you're like, Oh yeah, that's Bogart in Casablanca. I think what I forgot about this movie isn't just that Rick is such a anti hero. He's a really early example of what you would come to be known in in 50s literature as the anti hero, but that he's just legitimately like a huge asshole to everyone for most of the movie.

19:02 To the point where like still 10 minutes from the end of the movie, you're like, Oh my God, this guy's gonna sell out some guy to get sent to a concentration camp. Like there's, there's no redeeming qualities to Rick. Yeah, to to be clear, get some tail and get back to New York 'cause he misses it there. Like, this guy is a Dick. And, and I just didn't remember it. I remember him being like a hard shelled soft candy, you know, a hard candy shell soft interior kind of guy. No, not at all. Like he is just the worst for most of this movie and I don't know why I remembered it differently, but Brad, I'd love to hear your opinions on Rick Blaine the character. You mean your first 49 times you got it wrong and this time around hold?

19:47 On. See, I honestly, I don't take him that way at all. I take him as extraordinarily bitter and angry at his life that he had his one love and he didn't trust his gut to go get her in in Paris. He trusted her to come meet him at the station. And he's been regretting it ever since. And like, the only thing keeping him alive is Sam. So I to me, it didn't come off as just like, he's a giant D It's more of just like, yeah, he's super wounded and. Can't handle his emotions 'cause he was born in like 1890 something so. And the fact that he's surrounded by like people that might be trying to kill him at all times. Totally.

20:29 I've, you know, like he's he's a former guy who's run arms to The Ethiopians and has fought for the Republic in Spain. And now he's like surrounded by Nazis and French Nazi collaborators. So, but like, yes, it's funny because it's like he is that ultimate example of like every 50s and you know, every 50s antihero where he's just like outwardly a Dick and he only speaks in like cryptic riddles. Like he's he's refuses to to be honest to a fault. Like he can't even like, tell you what the weather is that day. I I mean the, the line about like, how did you get here? And he said I came to Casablanca for the waters. Quad Rings is like for my help.

21:18 We're in the desert. He's like, I was misinformed and that's it. He doesn't say anything else. Great. Classic, like 30s, you know, pitter patter dialogue. But like, he really makes it work. There's a quote from one of the brothers that wrote the screenplay that it has more corn than in the states of Kansas and Iowa combined. But when corn works, there's nothing better. And like, that really does sum up the movie. Like, it is very corny. All these things were either tropes at the time or have become tropes. You know, Humphrey Bogart's character probably most of all. But like when he delivers a monologue, like it hits every damn time. I feel like that needs to be the the tagline for Mellow Corn. When corn works, there's nothing better. One of our favorite whiskeys, Brad. Yeah.

22:09 I'd love to hear a little bit more about what you guys think of the performance. Like obviously with some of these older stars, and I think Bogart's among them, like when you're watching a Humphrey Bogart movie, you're getting a Humphrey Bogart performance. Same thing with like James Cagney. Like you're not expecting too much outside the wheelhouse of a typical James Cagney. I would say Brad, for us, the one that we've watched of Bogart, that was kind of the biggest departure was The Treasure of the Sierra Madre, which I think he's probably better in than in this. But I, I think he or he has to kind of modulate his tone, his rhythm, his emotions in a much smaller register. Because obviously of the character repressing and suppressing all of his actual guilt and shame and everything else.

22:52 And when to Vince's point, when you see him in the darkened saloon on that first night doing the, you know, of all the gin joints monologue, I it's some of the best acting of his career. It's so good, man. Yeah, he plays dark and brooding so incredibly well. And the the first time that Elsa comes back to see him in at night and he just rips into her and basically calls her a whore. Like Also, this movie has a lot of stuff you do not expect out of a 1942 film. Like, Claude Raines is sleeping with underage women.

23:33 He flat out calls Elsa a whore. And there's like three or four other moments that I was, like, blown away by the content that they're putting into this movie in the 40s. Yeah. I think that one of the reasons Bogart works so well is because he is kind of a a boulder in the film that everybody else is trying to chip away at and figure out who he is. And you can see him emotionally on his face just like keeping everybody out until the few moments of the film where he lets people in, which is when he calls Elsa whore. He he lets her in and tells her what he's really thinking at the end of the film when he says one of the best closing lines of all time to Claude Raines.

24:20 Like there's, there's a few moments throughout the film where he actually lets himself be seen. And it it that transition from like, you're not getting anything out of me to like, here's what I really think. Bogart just nails it. Yeah, I think it was the director of Killing Them Softly was talking about Brad Pitt and how like he kind of only can play this like iconic, like larger than life type character because he just has that quality to him. Like he, he doesn't play like a regular average Joe very well, I think. Yeah, Humphrey Bogart has that same thing. And it works. His persona works in this movie because like, he is always, his staginess works 'cause he's sort of always doing a performance in his status as like the biggest, you know, bar owner in this town that's like filled with intrigue and, and spies and people trying to kill each other.

25:18 So it's like he's given a performance, but he's also playing a guy who's giving a performance. And then, yeah. And then you sort of live for those moments where he drops the facade a little bit and becomes like a wounded little boy or, or, you know, this earnest, earnest, romantic type person. I want to talk about Ingrid Bergman, but in order to kind of intro that, I kind of have to talk a little bit about the the structure of the movie itself. Because they don't actually start that flashback to Paris until about the 45 minute mark of the movie. And everything before that happens in one night in one location, which there are very few movies that can sustain that much of their movie unless they're, you know, like a based on a stage play that happens in one location.

26:08 But, you know, it reminds me a lot, Brad, of The Godfather, like that opening wedding sequence where you spend the first like 40 minutes there with Don Corleone. Like, I forgot how much of the setup of the characters. You know, the inciting incident with the letters of transit, the intrigue, you know, the the politics between parties at the cafe leading into of all the gin joints. And then finally, like the flashback where you finally understand, like, what the hell is going on with this character? It's a solid 45 minutes. And I think it's really masterfully set up, not just by the script, but also by the director, Michael Curtis, that when Ingrid Bergman walks through the door at like the 30 minute mark of the movie, you're like, oh, who's this? And, and you're not even thinking about the fact that like, oh, now the movie's starting because it never seemed like they were bidding their time. She just comes in.

27:01 But you've had tons and tons of plot get set up before then and never got bored with it. I don't think we even see Rick's house, right? Like we don't see where he like, lives at any point, no. I does he just live above the bar like where he where he has her that one night? I don't remember. I think so, yeah, I guess, yeah, I guess that counts. Yeah, that's true. But I think, yeah, I think that, yeah. I was going to say the opening of the film is incredible because it's a it's like a little bit ham handed, but they just set up. Rick is a guy that doesn't stick his neck out for anybody. There are there is a French underground resistance in town. There's another cafe owner that like if you want to do get down and dirty, you can go to him.

27:44 But Rick plays by his own rules and they set all of that up in a way that like feels a little bit obvious, but it's compelling, interesting movie telling where you also get to see the brutality of the the Reich and the the French that are friendly to the Third Reich. Like you get so much jam packed into that that when you hit Elsa walking in, it feels like almost like a mic drop. Like like, oh, we already had all this happening and now this stunning, gorgeous woman walks in and she was in love with Rick. Like, it's just a great like flow into what the movie is actually about. It kind of works the way good pulp tends to work. Like there's that opening scene with the pickpocket and like the most of the openings in this are like a little clunky and like a little stagey.

28:41 And like that ends up working really well because it it comes on clunky and stagey at the moment when you're most willing to suspend disbelief. And so you're like, OK, let's see where this is going. And then it's sort of like it, it gradually it lowers your defenses for all of the like corn that works so well because like it's gets, it gets gradually, it reveals layers of realism. Like once you've already like suspended it, it's not doing it the opposite way where you know, you're expecting a grounded reality. And then suddenly it starts hitting you with like the, the, the, the stagy stuff. It's, you know, it, it, it lulls you into like a, it lulls you into accepting everything that it's doing.

29:28 Can I just say while, while we're here at the start, the the the pickpocket who like goes to Rick and he's as he's getting arrested, he's like rank, help me rank. Yeah. Every time I see Ugarte, all I can think about is Robin Williams in Aladdin when he's talking to Aladdin about the rules he got and he goes, I can't bring you back from the dead. Is that is that the connection? Yeah, so that's again. So the actor's name is Peter Lorre, who became very famous for his look and his sound. He was a German actor. One day we'll get around to watching. He made a a film in Germany with Fritz Lang called M that is like just one of the best movies of all time, Brad, and he's the star. Of it, I've even heard of it.

30:14 All right, there you go. We, you've heard of the letter M We're, we're, we're well on our way, Brad. That first season of Sesame Street paid off handsomely. So yeah. Then he comes over to America. He does a lot of character work. He had worked with Bogart the year before this in the Maltese Falcon and he's in tons of like Looney Tunes cartoons. They do Peter Laurie characters. It comes up in Aladdin. So yes, there you go. Same, same guy I love. A bug eyed little freak. I'm like a big. Man. Yeah. Yeah, if you're remaking this movie, like this is clearly the Steve Buscemi performance, right? Like, I don't think there's anybody else you can really slot in here. Oh, I could do like a Barry Kogan if you're.

30:56 Going modern Modern. I'm OK with that. I mean, if we're talking bug eyed freaks like he's definitely. Are are you throwing Brad Pitt in for Humphrey? No. I don't think he's that. I don't think he's quite the actor that Humphrey is. Oh, I've got a hot take. Did you see the new Wes Anderson movie, Brad? I have not. The Phoenician scheme. I like Vince, I liked it a lot. But I watched that movie and I was like, I think Benicio could pull off the Humphrey Bogart. Character. He's got the look and the like. He stoicism to him, you know, he's I think that's the only guy I would recommend from from like today's crop of actors.

31:39 I don't know who else could do it. Well, Humphrey Bogart looks like he lives hard, which is like a rare quality among modern actors. For sure. Speaking of bug eyed freaks, guys, let's get back to Ingrid Bergman, am I right? So I want to talk a little bit about Ingrid Bergman. And I think that I, I wanted to do that set up because they do such a good job of burying the lead with her character because like, she comes in and as she comes in, the rest, you know, the Cafe, you're only familiar with her character as the wife of the guy they've been talking about this whole time. Like they've been building up Victor Laszlo. And you're like, oh, Ingrid Bergman, maybe Humphrey Bogart will try to like, you know, swoop in on the side 'cause he seems like a devious guy. You have no idea that they're going to have this back story that they share.

32:25 And then she mentioned Sam and then she starts talking to Sam and then you're like, Oh yeah, there's something going on here. And I just love the way that as an audience member, you're left completely in the dark way up until that that first flashback. And there's only a few times, Brad, that we've experienced that with films we've watched for the podcast. I think the Matrix is a good example where I think in the Matrix I talked about like at that 45 minute mark, you're almost getting frustrated with like, I need answers like this is getting I I need to know what's going on. And then they finally reveal like the plot of, you know, what's going on in the Matrix. It's kind of similar here, but in order to get there, you have to go from not knowing who Ingrid Bergman is to having the entire like onus of this past relationships emotional weight put on her.

33:14 And the way they accomplished that is as Dooley Wilson starts singing as time goes by, Michael Curtis is like, let's leave the camera on her face in an unbroken shot for like the first 2 verses of this song for like a solid minute. And all you see is like her eyes slowly move this way and and a a single tear starts to form here and you're watching her remember. And for somebody, yes, she's gorgeous. She's a very beautiful woman. But to be able to hold the camera for that long, doing that little, is an incredibly impressive acting feat. Dude. Like one of the one of very few, what I would call perfect shots, like just everything the movie needed and like transcendent in the history of cinema where like you could put that down in front of almost anybody and just let them sit there with that shot and feel the weight of the emotion and what's happened. Like I I would put that up there. I'd put that up there with, is it gold rush where, where Charlie is standing there and everybody else goes out and he's it's just a, it's a perfect shot. I'd put it up there with Darth Vader's mask coming on for the very first time.

34:39 Like, like. Just wow you you'd really put it up there with Star Wars. That's. Crazy. I I sure would. Who knew? Sorry, here's here's my hot take, Bob. I think that the flashback scene is unnecessary. I I think it kind of ruins the one shot of Ingrid Bergman. Like, I think that shows you the emotion. Yeah, it's making, it's making you create whatever happened between them in your mind. And then you get this weird, like Fellini fever dream, whatever the fuck that flashback is. I kind of agree with. I I was reading the Wikipedia and apparently, like the director, like Curtis Curtis was the one pushing for that for for whatever reason.

35:23 Oh, interesting. Yeah, I don't, yeah, it doesn't do anything. It doesn't like hurt the film to me, but I could. I feel like yeah, I could easily imagine it without it. For for me, it almost like betrays the beauty of that shot. It's like, OK, we understand the emotional stakes because Bergman knocks it out of the freaking park. Yeah. And then you kind of like put in this. It's like the joke that you make someone create in their head is going to be better than any joke that you actually tell word for word. And like the, yeah, the flashback scene is like they're just telling you like we had, we created it in our head like this beautiful, whatever this beautiful relationship was. Yeah, and, and all you need is for him to in talking to her when he's calling her a whore, which apparently we're talking about a lot tonight, like in that moment. That word a lot more than in any other episode of our podcast. I mean, plus the whole thing is about the inability to recapture a moment, which, you know, that's sort of like The Great Gatsby too, but it's like the, you know, that's the whole theme of the movie.

36:26 So like when you actually do a flashback to that moment, you're like, yeah, probably could have done without that. Yeah, that's fair. I I think all you have to do is have Bogart angrily describe what it was like waiting on the train platform for her, and I think that would have been way more effective than actually showing the scene. My defense for it and I'm actually with you guys like if they had cut it, I think it's still a great movie, right and and. Then it would be it would be a 90 minute film then. That's true. I only know this movie with the flashback in it so it's really hard to imagine it without. But like to see them go from Humphrey Bogart like slunched over a bottle of bourbon to a flashback where you see him smiling for the first time in the whole movie and you're like, this is a completely different.

37:11 Drive in a convertible like bears in the world. Just right out into the French countryside. He doesn't care. Also and his smile is not great he like barely shows. Yeah, well, his face is all jacked up. He just like, shows a a few of his top teeth that are all like wonky, Yeah. He's got bad. Teeth. So I mean, it is what it is, man. You have a beautiful smile and I don't now I feel offended by this. So what are you really talking about here? I guess is what I'm saying. I mean I miss real teeth in movies like. Yes. I mean. That's always like when when an actor hits the age where you see that they've gotten like veneers or dentures put in. Like when Clooney hit his denture phase. I was like, no, Clooney's actually old now.

37:53 I was just going to say, like I, I did a re watch of the Mission Impossible franchise before the new movie or right around the time that came out. And then like, like there's a distinct difference between Tom Cruise up until Mission Impossible 2. And then he got some, some like major dental work done between 2:00 and 3:00 to make it look quote UN quote better. But it's like the fact that he had like teeth that had a little bit of character made him more handsome. And like, you take that away, it's like, you know, it's, it's, it's sanding down one of the idiosyncrasies that sort of made him interesting. You know who I bet never had anything done on his teeth? Steve Buscemi. I'll bet you he's just rocking.

38:34 Whatever man of character right there, Steve Buscemi and then you know, Willem Dafoe has enough teeth for both of them. So that's it's perfect like. And they're more handsome because of it. I love it man, both of them. I forget what movie he was talking about, but I interviewed Ben Foster about some movie that he did. I think it was some sort of movie where he was in combat or something. And like the rumor was that he like ate dirt on the set of whatever movie. And he was like, so I when I was asking him about it, I was like, oh, is this true? Like, what was the story behind that? And he's like, you know, I was just looking around and I see all of us pretty boy actors with our caps teeth, like looking like we just got out of like whatever, you know, like looking like we just came from the the dentist and we're playing this war scene.

39:18 And it didn't feel right for me. So I like started eating. He put dirt in his mouth to try and make it, you know, a little more realistic. I don't think I've ever heard a better description of actor brain that they're like, how do I make my teeth look like the peasants again? They eat dirt, right? This is what you people do, right? Oh man, guys, we've we've talked about teeth and bug eyes and very little about the acting performances in this movie like. I think the movie doesn't work with that. Sorry. Go ahead. 100 No, I I completely agree with you. Like, you have to have these characters in the movie and you know, we'll touch on some of this, but there's so much lore of like, you know, the the Lamar Sayaz scene is stocked with all of these extras. Many of whom were like legitimate war refugees from Europe.

40:08 And they said California made this in 1942. Was so insane to me. Like the movie, I mean sorry, the war had like just kind of started like it like movies take a while to make. Like they made a such a perfect World War 2 movie. Like in the middle of it. Like the Nazis were still very much winning at this point. Yeah, like I, I don't have the Wikipedia pulled up, so I'm trying to figure out like, exactly when they filmed the movie. But you have to think that it was at least in production, like when Pearl Harbor was happening, right? It came out at the end. It happened, it happened. They released it just after the Allied invasion of North Africa. So I think it is like before D-Day still like when it comes out like there was, I, I guess there was discussions about whether to try and fit like the invasion of North Africa into the movie.

40:59 And then they were like, no, we can't do that. I'm so glad they didn't. And like, it's not like it's a very complicated metaphor, like Rick as this picture of American isolationism. But like, there's one small moment where Claude Rayne says something, you know, he says, I stick my neck out for nobody. And then Claude Rayne says a wise foreign policy. And, you know, the entire arc of his character is like, what's going to be the thing that makes him stick his neck out? Because even as that Marseilles scene starts, he's been talking with Victor Laszlo upstairs. They come out onto the balcony and they look down and Rick doesn't do anything. Like Rick is just letting this play out kind of, you know, blowing with the wind and seeing where where fate takes this. And it's Victor Laszlo that's like, screw this, like go down and confront these guys.

41:44 And throughout the whole movie, you know, yes, we're we're familiar with Rick because he's the protagonist of our movie. But like, Victor Laszlo is the better person throughout the movie. And, like, the guy who's actually has principles and stands on something. And so the question is, is Rick ever gonna get to the point where he could be worthy of Ingrid Bergman's love and worthy of the kind of guy that he used to be? And it's such a great little metaphor for like, hey, we just got bombed by the Japanese. Like, are we gonna, like, finally get into this fight that people been begging us to get into? That seems like such a perfect example of this movie where it's like, you could describe that. Like you could put that on paper.

42:25 Like, OK, these Germans are singing their song and then they come in and they sing the Marcias and they they drown them out like on paper. Like that does nothing for me. I'm like, OK, whatever, that's stupid. And then you watch it and you're like, yeah, I want to like run through a brick wall, brick wall right now. I'm fucking pumped. Like and, and I will think that about that scene and I'll think it can't possibly make me feel that way again. And then every time I watch it, it's the same damn thing. And I'm like, I don't. You're like standing up with with Laszlo, Yeah. I don't know the words, I don't know what the I don't know what the Marseilles is about. I don't even know the melody. But like, I don't know, just the way he shoots that scene with the final shot of Yvonne, who by the way, like when she first enters, I'm like, why is Rick throwing this hot chick out of his bar? I don't really get it.

43:12 What's his like? Why does he hate this super hot chick so much? And then angry Bird. Vince's character, if he was in the movie, would be Claude Rains. Yeah. Yeah. Angry Bergeron shows up and I'm like, OK, this is the one you're in love with. All right, whatever. But then it works like everything else in the movie, where at first you're kind of you're sort of like you have your hackles up a little bit and then it it, it gradually lowers your defenses until you're like, OK, just let this movie into my heart. Well, and then you get that story of like Michael Curtis specifically stocking Ricks with extras from Europe who have fled the war. And you know, I've heard it said like 1000 times, but it's true. Like watch anybody in the background in that scene and there are people weeping and it's real because they're like, they have just escaped atrocities in Europe and they're coming to make this movie in America. It's it's one of those stories from Hollywood that's like too good to be true, but it's actually one of the true ones. And I think like maybe another great example of this, Brad is the guy who plays Major Strasser, Conrad Weit again, he was a famous German actor.

44:17 There's a really like he's. So on metal looking. He's that dude. No one has ever looked more like a Nazi than Conrad. Bike in this movie, his eyes. He was like the most popular actor in Germany in the early days of film. And there's a landmark silent movie called The Cabinet of Doctor Caligari that he starred in. He comes to America. He. He. Silently played the cabinet right. He was the Cabinet, yes. What range on this guy, Right. The sound pictures hit. He has to go back to Germany because he has this thick German accent. But he arrives back in Germany at the same time that the Nazis are coming to power. And he's like these. These guys certainly seem to suck.

44:59 And what ends up happening is he marries a Jewish woman and right around the time he gets married, they start sending out these kind of like census documents that are like, you have to declare what race you are. And he wasn't Jewish, but his wife was. And he knew it was going to happen. So he wrote down that his race was Jewish on this thing just as like a fuck you to the Nazis and then took his wife and fled to America. And Brad, I've got some facts pulled up about Conrad Bite. He agreed to play Nazi characters in Hollywood films with the stipulation that they must always be portrayed as villains. It was a contractual demand he enforced to ensure that the roles that his roles undermined the Nazi 'cause he fled Nazi Germany with his Jewish wife, supported his ex-wife and daughter in their escape from Germany, demonstrating his commitment to fighting the regime. He donated his life savings to the British government to aid the war effort.

45:52 When he first fled Germany, he went to England and bought 2000 different packages of candy to deliver who to kids whose houses were bombed in the bombing of London, and then continued to give his salary from every movie he made back to the war effort just to fight the Nazis. Dude was a bad ass. That's insane. Yeah, man. Like that's and it's like, you know, people make Movies Now and yes, they have the power to go along with it, but it's like, how often do you get a story about to your point, Vince, this was happening as the war was going on and the people in the movie were part of it overseas. And now they're coming here to make this movie. Every time I watch it, like I can't figure out how they made the timeline work that well, 'cause I'm like trying to imagine, like the best War on Terror movie coming out in 2003. Like it's just it's yeah, it's crazy. Also, what's what does that casting call look like? Are you recently escaped from Europe? We need.

46:56 You. It's like a shady lawyer, like what the guys that now would be doing. Like were you hurt in a car accident? Like did you escape atrocities in Nazi Germany if so? What are? What are? Your 1800 Hollywood. Cause in California we have like 3 everybody knows like the three dude billboard lawyers, like we have Anne Fong, we have sweet James What, what are your and and and accidentes? What are your guys? You know who I'm thinking of? Tim Nisney. And I'll make them pay. There's a guy named Tim Mizney who looks like knock off, like great value, Mr. Clean, very bald. And his thing is that like, yeah, he his commercial, he would buy 5 second airtime commercials and he would just say I'm Tim Mizney and I'll make them pay. That's it.

47:45 And he's very. So famous in Cleveland now that like he he owns like every billboard in Cleveland. And it would used to say Tim Mizney make them pay and he would be like cock in one eyebrow like the Rock. And now they've made it so that he the iconography of Tim Mizney is so legendary in Northeast Ohio that the Billboard is just an extreme close up of his eyes doing this. And there's no text. It's just Tim Mizney's eyebrow. He's like Mark I've. Jordan one that just says, you know what I'll do? Which is so threatening. We have a guy named Sweet James, which is disconcerting. Like if you saw the guy's face, he does not look like a sweet guy. He looks like a very.

48:25 He's just a very ugly man. I feel like sweet. James was in some like it hot and he was like a hit man trying to kill. Yeah. Right. It's just like a creepy name. It doesn't fit the guy. Like you wonder if he chose it because he knew people would be like what the hell? Why is this guy calling himself Sweet James and then apparently like he is Mary or he's the ex-husband of someone who was on one of the Real Housewife type shows? So. And he's a very shady character, yeah. When when they're like reading the, you know, the who's in court into record. It's like and counsel for the defense. Sweet James. Full legal name. Sweet James. Guys, I think this is a good place for us to hit pause, Brad. I've been really excited to dive back into not just this movie, but our whiskey for the day, which is Elijah Craig Small Batch.

49:16 Vince is actually going to join us for this review. He's got a bottle in front of him. What do you say we get into this review, Brad, dude? I'm ready for it. Let's go. All right, so today we are checking out Elijah Craig, Small Batch Brad, one of the first whiskeys. I think that made a big impression on us as we recorded this podcast. Not necessarily 'cause it was like the best thing we'd ever drank, but it became a really good baseline for us where, OK, it's not benchmark, it's definitely like the second shelf up. And then I think everything in that price point for a long time we compared to Elijah Craig, like, is this as good as Elijah Craig, yes or no? And that was like how we determined value on stuff. Yeah, I, I think that Elijah Craig really set the standard for us.

50:07 It's been so long since I've returned to it, Bob. I like, I have not drank this probably since we had it, maybe once since. So I, I've already drank it. I'm still drinking it, as you can see. I'm really excited to get into it, man, because it's been a while. I've been trying not to drink too much while we record this and it's very hard. No, we prefer it the other way. You trying to drink as much? Conversations are it's right here. Conversations are much better if you're drinking it throughout the whole thing. Tempting me, yeah. Vince, do you have any history with Elijah Craig Small Batch? You know, like I actually don't it was not one of my, you know, go to favorites in the past. Like I'm very much a Wild Turkey person. I'm very yeah.

50:58 So I like that, that that's sort of like my baseline go to and that sort of speaks to me for whatever reason. But I'm very much enjoying it this time. And fairly, it's like it feels like it hits super oaky. It's like like a big oak caramel punch. And it makes me want to keep going back to it. And I will probably get it again after this. There you go, Brad, Some statistics that we should get into here before we start the review. This is a Heaven Hill whiskey. We just visited Heaven Hill for the first time this past summer. Incredible operations going on down there at the Heaven Hill distilleries. The mash bill on this one is 78% corn, 10% rye, 12% malted barley. So the rye is very low in the mash bill. It should be a really easy one to drink. I was surprised to find out that the all the barrels that this is aged in are only charred to a #3 char instead of that #4 alligator char.

51:54 And again, I think it just kind of plays into the fact that this is going to be like a little bit more of an approachable softer whiskey for you, especially at the 94 proof point that we have here, Brad. And I, I will say, if you're going to come under 100 and not go all the way down to 80, I think that mid 90s proof point is a really great spot where you have a decent amount of flavor that comes through and yet you're not hitting this high proof 110 plus blasting you out of the water. And Bob, I'm not going to lie, man, the more we've Drake whiskey, the more you realize you're like, I can drink a decent amount of 94 proof whiskey. You hit one O 4110 like yeah, it's a lot. Quicker, dude, it it sure does.

52:40 But yeah, that's for sure. And I see Vince is drinking this on a big old rock. Brad, I'm trying this neat in my little mini Glenn Cairn here. Let's go ahead and dive in, guys. So Vince, the way this works is we'll assess this across a couple different categories. The nose, the taste, the finish, the overall balance, and then we'll talk about the price of it and determine the value. We'll give scores out of 10 on each of these. Brad, what are you picking up on the nose of this Elijah Craig? Dude, the nose is just like the platonic ideal of what you want from a bourbon. There is caramel, there's brown sugar, there's vanilla. For me, it gets a little bit nutty, a a hint of banana kind of going on.

53:22 But those are like the the effervescent kind of extras you get. This is bourbon. This is everything you want out of a bourbon. I I don't think it's like transcendently great, but I think it's really good. I'll give it a 7 1/2. Yeah, I'm going to give it a nine out of 10 because I'm with you. It's not like a transcendent. It's it's all of the notes that people say they smell when they smell bourbon. So it is kind of like the quintessence of burfin. It's not like blowing me away, but you're right, it's caramel, it's vanilla. It's there's tons of oak on this, but the oak presents is like really spicy black pepper, cinnamon, nutmeg. I get a lot of Maple on this. It's just a damn good nose for a bourbon. Brad.

54:03 I'm going to give it a nine out of 10. Vince, any thoughts on the nose here? Yeah, I think I agree with you. I'm, I was surprised at how low the rye was in the mash bill too, because when I taste it, well, I mean, I know we're talking about the nose, but when I taste it, it has that like pepperiness and there is that, I don't know how to describe it. It's like a sparklingness like on my, when I on the nose, like there's like that punchy, like oaky, it's like a spicy peppery thing. But then it's very much balanced by, like you said, all the things that you expect from bourbon, like like this smells like what like a, a, like the bourbon soap that I that I've bought like from the hardware store smells like, it's like, it's what the, the people who create like the the sense draw from basically. I could just see Vince's wife being like, honey, why don't you use the the body wash that I bought? You're like, no, no, I'm sorry.

55:03 I buy bourbon soap from the hardware store. Yeah, yeah. The the place that I go to smell all my nuts and bolts, I also need soap from there. I want to smell like my drink. Dude, I'm not going to lie, one of my buddies, like kind of as a joke for a Christmas gift got me one of those like whiskey soap pack things and it has a tin of like a solid Cologne that's supposedly like Buffalo Trace bourbon. Smells incredible, dude. It it is, they figured out pumpkin spice. Yeah, that's exactly what. It is as we get into the taste here, I think pumpkin spice might actually be a good lead in here because there is a ton for me.

55:49 There's a ton of baking spice on this, Brad, I will say like it's everything you want in a bourbon. But as I kind of kick it to the back of my palate, there's like 1 little note that across my palate, it was like pink bubble gum. But as it got to the back of my palate, it turned a little bit like aspartamey, like it has almost like an artificial sweetness to the back of the palate and into the finish. So I don't know, I guess I'll Ding it for that here instead of the finish. But I'm going to come down to like a 7 out of 10 on the taste here. I mean, for me the the palate sat with a lot of like burnt sugar. It got a little bit peanutty. The caramel and vanilla were there that had like a sugary sweetness, like a frosting, and it had that oaky spiciness going on.

56:33 It's not like wildly complex, but there's a lot of flavor going on here that once again, I really like it. It's really solid. I'm sitting at a 7 1/2 out of 10 on the palate. But I just switched. I switched to tasting it neat and like it is different. I get less oak, and I know what you mean by the sort of artificial sweetener flavor. For some reason I wasn't getting that as much like with a big ice cube in it. I was getting more of the oaky, like leathery notes. But yeah, I I agree with that. It's sort of like it has a syrupy quality to it that cuts the pepperiness in a way that it makes it approachable. But I don't 100% love.

57:21 So yeah, I would say it's like a 8 for me, yeah. Yeah, Brad. And then on the finish, I actually, since I dinged it for that note on the pallet, I'll kind of come back up a little bit on the finish. Super warming. Like you feel it in your chest. Like to your point, that 94 proof is just high enough that you're like, all right, this has a backbone to it. This would stand up and really great in a cocktail. I think this would make a killer old Fashioned because there's just enough of that burnt sugar flavor you were talking about and quite a bit of oak on this. I'm going to come up to like and 8.5 on the finish. Dude, you are all. Over the place with your scores. I love this man. Yeah. I am just consistent throughout man. I think this is okie peppery.

58:06 The vanilla is like the main sweet flavor that sticks around for me. Once again, I'm going to give it a 7 1/2 I'd like. I think this is a really solid example of what you should expect from a bourbon. I will go 8 1/2 because I don't know what it's hard to define like a thing that makes you want to continue drinking it. I tend to judge bourbons by like how long they hang around in my liquor cabinet. Like, you know, I can say what you want about it. Like this is good. This has this note that says that note, But it's like there's my three-week bourbons and then there's bourbons that have been in there for four years and this. I have a term. I have a term for you. Are you ready? What's that crush ability?

58:47 Crush ability. Yeah, the the craft beer guys love that one. And I don't know, maybe it's my opinion of craft beer world, but no, like, this feels more like a three-week bourbon than it does a 2 year bourbon for sure. Yep, Yeah, it's versatile. I think you could throw it into any sort of cocktail or you could drink it neat. And I think that that's why on balance, you know, Vince, we judge balance especially by like how consistent was it across those first 3 categories that it kind of do this a little bit. And for me, I do think the taste, I had to Ding it a little bit. But overall, Brad, I think this is still a really well balanced whiskey, especially when you consider that this is like the baseline offering and that they're cranking out how many thousands of barrels of this a year for like the the name brand middle shelf product that this is. This is like an 8 out of 10 on balance for me. I'm I'm with you man, 8 out of 10 on balance that the mixture of flavors is really beautiful.

59:50 It's peppery but not overly oaked. It's sweet, but not it doesn't like dive into this wildly rich cloying, like way too much sweetness. So yeah, I I think I'm sitting in an 8 out of 10 on balance as well. I'll go with that. It's all B plus. No, it's very, I would say balance is probably its main quality like it's most like most memorable quality, like it's just got all of the elements that you expect in a bourbon and they're all there and they're working together. Yeah, I think if I can be like draw some crude boundaries here, Brad, like bottom shelf whiskey, you almost want it to announce itself as little as possible because like if any notes are going to come out from bottom shelf whiskey, it's going to be. They're not going to be good.

1:00:39 And then you, when you work your way up to this kind of middle shelf where it's this and Woodford and maybe, you know, Wild Turkey one O 1 or anything in in that realm, like you're finally getting into, Oh, I want this to stick around and I want it to feel like I can't believe I got it for only 30 bucks. And I think that that this is still to me, kind of like the platonic ideal of that shelf. So as we get into value here, Brad, I actually don't know what this is selling for in the state of Ohio. Now. Have they raised the price on it? This is $35. I think it's damn good, man. If it was 30, it'd be a 10. I think it's 35. I'm still going to give it like a nine. This like I would probably buy this before I bought Woodford and I like Woodford a lot so. That's where I'm at with it.

1:01:27 Yeah. I, I would say I think I'm still a Woodford guy at that $35 price range. I still think this is an 8 out of 10 on value, that this is a really, really good whiskey. And anymore, man, it just, it feels like it's hard to find great whiskey in that 32 to $36 range. So I I'm all in on this. Yeah, I have a bottle of wood Woodford in my liquor cabinet right now and I think this would go faster than the Woodford if I'm OK being honest. Yeah, like for me, if we're talking about that, I don't know what like the Wild Turkey one O 1 is going for. If that's the same price point to me that's like that. I'd probably put that like a little bit higher, but that's more just like a sense memory than a thing that I'm evaluating like one, one to one.

1:02:17 It's just sort of like probably just like based on good vibes I have with that for whatever reason. But yeah, this feels like a very solid whiskey for 35 bucks. Now I will say Wild Turkey one O 1 in the state of Ohio, 2499, yeah. Oh man, that's good value. That's a really good value man. I think for me, Brad, if I'm like, if I have to grab 2 bottles off the shelf, off this shelf at the liquor store, it's probably this and it's Maker's Mark so that I can get a good weeded bourbon. I like Maker's a lot. But yeah, I'd probably put Coopers Craft 100 up there. No, that's in there too. That's yeah, we're gonna sneak 1/3. Because Makers is like a completely different experience than this in my my mind. I like also, but like, I don't know, we did. We did bourbon.

1:03:01 It's great. It's just like a completely different experience in some ways. Brad, I'm coming out to an extraordinarily high 41.5 out of 50 on this. Whiskey deal. I was going to say, dude, you were you were given some some capital S scores to this whiskey man. It's. Not crazy is like the Elijah Craig barrel proofs that people like stand in line for. I think that pound for pound, I like this better than the barrel proof version. I think it's every once in a while you just have to have a really good cocktail bourbon and this is that for me. Yeah, I mean, I I'd like this a lot. I will recommend you go buy it. You can try it. You can do whatever you want.

1:03:42 Spend your money on it. It's good stuff. I'm coming out to a 38.5 Bob. That is, it's a good score. This isn't a. 40 plus whiskey, dude. Well, that's where you're wrong, my friend. I'm just Vince is going to come in and give it a perfect 50 out of 50, right? Man, I was supposed to be doing math this whole time. I have no idea. I was just enjoying bourbon. I'm going to give it a 40. Let's say there it is. Guess what Brad, Guess what? Guess what we come out to on average anyway, between our 2 scores, we come out to an 80 out of 100 or a 40 out of 50. Boom. So this is hitting that like rarefied air. There's only been a few whiskeys that are like in this price point that hit this, and it's usually because they're not knocking our socks off, but they are like just exceptional values.

1:04:28 And I think this one still belongs in that category. Yeah, absolutely. Like I, I think I would have been at like 2028, I want to say before out of 40 for the taste categories. So yeah, I did. Dude. Elijah Craig is really, really good. It's not knocking my socks off the way it is for you. But if you want a classic bourbon experience, something that will give you everything you want out of a bourbon Dude for 35 bucks, Elijah Craig is so so good. Yeah, I think I may just be colored by the fact that we're also talking about, like, one of my favorite movies here today. So let's just carry these good vibes back into our conversation on Casablanca.

1:05:12 Brad, what do you say? Let's get to it. All right, that was Elijah Craig's Small Batch, a 94 proof bourbon that got a 40 out of 50 from us on average. Brad, you need to stop resisting. It's a damn good whiskey for what it is. I. I I would use the exact same words to describe it, but not give it a 41 1/2 out of 50. The The numbers don't lie, my friend, much like they don't lie about this season's game, which we call 2 facts and a falsehood. Brad is going to try to stump your ball. 2 are right and what is wrong? 2 facts and a falsehood. 2 Facts and a Falsehood is the part of the show where Brad presents me with three items as fact about the making of this movie, one of which is a complete lie and your boy is doing terribly this season. Now we're coming off of a a couple bad weeks for me, including one where Zach Johnston led me astray and I got 2 losses on that week because I listened to our guest. Vince, I know we're springing this on you here. You were.

1:06:22 We're playing a big game of two truths and a lie, and we're gonna tap you to give some expertise here. If if you and I decide on an answer and I go with that, if I win, I only get one win in the in the win column. But if I lose, I get 2 losses. So there's a lot of pressure on you to deliver here today, man. Yikes. OK, I'll see. I'll do my best. No promises, no refunds. That's my personal motto. How slyly can you Google off camera while Brad's reading these? Pretty good. I mean, you'll probably see my eyes moving around to the left. Yeah, that's alright. That'll be the tell. It's weird. Vince turned his camera off. Real. Quick, why does Vince keep talking to Siri? I don't understand what he's like. Brad, hit me with your two facts and a falsehood. All righty fact #1 Because the film was made during World War 2, the production was not allowed to film at an airport after dark for security reasons.

1:07:15 Instead it used a sound stage with a small cardboard cut out airplane and forced perspective to give the illusion that the plane was full-sized. They used little people to portray the crew preparing the plane for take off. Fact #2 The piano Julie Wilson played as Sam on set was rented from a Los Angeles Music Hall for $25. A week after filming ended, Warner Bros sold it off at auction for a negligible sum. Decades later, however, the same piano resurfaced in a private collection and was authenticated by a surviving prop master and eventually sold at Sophie's for 2.3 million. Fact #3 The difference in height between Humphrey Bogart and Ingrid Bergman changes throughout the film. This is because Bergman was actually one to two inches taller than Bogart.

1:08:04 To create the illusion that it was vice versa, Michael Curtis had Bogart stand on boxes and sit on pillows and some shots, or had Bergman slouched down as when she sits on the couch in the franc for your thoughts scene. All right, Vince, I'm going to give you my initial thoughts and tell me if I'm crazy. I've I've heard the anecdote from fact number one about the little people and the plane 100 times. So like I know that. That's where they got the word deplane. Deplane. Like it's I don't know how true it really is, but it's Hollywood lore. So like, and know that it's in the IMDb facts on this #3 I also know that they had Bogart stand on boxes like throughout this movie. So it it kind of, I want to circle #2 as the falsehood. But I also know that this is a movie where like yes, a prop from this movie could fetch $2,000,000 at Sotheby's. So I don't know man, where are you on this one? Yeah, 2 sounds plausible, but one and three I'm like 90% sure. I'm kind of in the same spot.

1:09:07 Brad's smiling, and usually when Brad's smiling, it means that he's gotten us somewhere. Now there have been a few. I was just thinking about Zach last. Week you shut your mouth, Sir. Now. There have been a few instances where Brad has snuck in like a clause into a sentence that was incorrect, and I'm wondering if it was true. If if if she's only like 2 inches taller than him, or if it's actually if the exact amount is actually like more or less. I will defend my honor here. I'm usually not that petty. Usually, usually every now and then, the pettiness creeps through. Brad, I, I just my gut reaction said 2 was the falsehood. I'll go ahead and lock into as the falsehood here and just hope and pray that I claw back one victory. Bob, you are 100% correct.

1:09:56 So I've I made-up the piano fact and then I looked up to thank you. I appreciate that. I looked up to see if it actually had been sold. The Flashback piano was sold for $602,000 in 2012. The actual Rick's Cafe piano was sold in 2014 for $3.413 million. That's insane, man, that's insane. 3.4 mil all. Right. Well, Zach, I'm not paying. For a piano, but that's just sweet.

1:10:37 Zach Johnson, if you're listening, we are doing the work here to dig out of the hole that you clawed for us. So Vince, thank you so much for that guys. I think that we should talk a little bit about Claude Rains, the only person really in in the top tier of this cast that we haven't talked about yet. I just rewatched the end of Mr. Smith Goes to Washington on TCMA few weeks ago. My kids were in the room and they wanted to see it cause like, I think they're at the age where they're starting to know what government is. And so they're like still very idealistic and they're like, wow, this is how it works. And, and watching Claude Raines in that movie, I'm just like, Oh my gosh. Like I know that he's regarded as one of the all time best character actors and supporting actors, but damn it if he's just not an S tier Hollywood actor that doesn't get the credit. I was trying to figure, yeah, one of my main questions, you asked the question of like, who would you recast Bogart with? And Claude Raines was like the first guy that came to mind of like, who was, who would I recast as Claude Raines, by the way, if I was going to recast Rick? I feel like if you just like, levelled up his acting a little bit, I feel like Gerard Butler could, could, could do, could do Rick Boy.

1:11:51 I kind of want to see Gerard Butler play that role for whatever reason 'cause he's a guy that always looks on. Levelling up his acting? Yeah, give, give, give me Gerard Butler at current acting levels. Let's see 'cause. It's like he's not a good actor. Like he's not a great actor. I would say he's a he's a OK actor, but he always looks hungover and I kind of love that about him. Yep. But Claude Rains, like there's there's got to be like a lot of people that could play that like obsequious weasel character. And, and The thing is like, he's just enough of like a dandy and and brings like just a slight effeminate thing to everything he does. Where like, and Mr. Smith goes to Washington, he is like the entrenched Eastern Seaboard senator that has the transatlantic accent and it makes perfect sense there.

1:12:40 And here he's playing like the French philanderer. And you're like, yeah, like I I totally buy it here as well because he has this mannered thing about him. I just, I don't know who it would be in today's Hollywood, Brad. I know who it is. Who? Stanley Tucci. I could. I think Stanley could nail that. I could see that. It's like, but Stanley Tucci is he's an ethnic white, you know, like he's like, like he and I can say that as an Italian and Armenian person, like, you know, like we don't object when when ethnic whites get cast as other ethnic whites. Like sure.

1:13:24 Like no one, no one objects to no one objects to what's his name? Adam Driver playing Italian for the 50th because why not? Like he reads ethnic white even even though he's not like I, I don't know. I, I don't, Yeah. Claude Raines doesn't read ethnic white to me in that way that like some of our cherished ethnic whites do like. And Stanley Tucci is definitely on like the list of cherished ethnic whites. I think that's that we need to just leave the conversation right there. That needs to be the last word. Sorry, I'm going to retitle this episode, this episode, Vince Mancini on ethnic whiteness and just see.

1:14:05 We change this here. We can already podcast. Oh, man. All right. When we were on break, I asked the guys, what do we still need to talk about? And Vince said, you know, phrenology. And then he also said, let's talk about the ending of the movie, because he has. Some stuff categorizing everyone racially. Sure. I was like, what about the ending? I want to turn the floor over to you because it sounds like this may be hot take #2 from you today. What did you want to get across about the ending of the film, Vince? So no, it wasn't. It's not a hot take so much as I didn't realize that because of the the codes that were in place for films at the time, like there was no situation in which Ilsa could have left her husband and gone off with Rick.

1:14:54 Like that was like that. Like at the time, that was not a possibility for the ending 'cause they couldn't show that on film. So like to me when I watch this at a modern remove, like it maybe there is a lot more ambiguity or like, I don't know, I, I didn't know what was going to happen at the end. So to me, like the ending sort of comes as a twist that, you know, Rick says, you know, you got to go off with Laszlo. Like, like, like it makes it a great ending to me. So I didn't realize that that would have been expected or predictable at the time. Yeah, no, it's funny because I, I was trying to watch this movie this time just through Rick's character arc perspective, because it, it really isn't much like he goes from being a wounded person to doing the right thing.

1:15:45 But when does the switch get flipped? I think is what I was looking for in the movie. And when you've seen it 50 times, right? Like, it's, it's a lot easier to to know where he's going with that plan and who he's tricking into going along with the plan at the end of the movie. So initially he tells Captain Renault, Claude Raines, I'll deliver Laszlo to you. You can put him in a concentration camp. Let me run off with his wife, by the way, Don't bring any other Nazis around, like, just us, OK? And he's like, all right, sure. So then he tricks everybody in the bar into thinking that he's handing them over. But then, surprise, surprise, he pulls a gun on Claude Rains. He's like, take us to the airport. And then they get to the airport, and he surprises Ingrid Bergman again by sending the two of them off together. And it's like, oh man, You hear all these stories about how we had both endings written and even the people on set didn't know which one we were going to go with. And, and the more I watched the movie, a few things have been made apparent that that is complete BS. One of them Vince being, yes, the Hayes code just would not have allowed that other ending to ever happen. But if you're paying attention to Bogart's character arc, that other ending couldn't have happened anyway because like. Yeah.

1:17:00 He's such a Dick through the whole movie. And you know, Brad said many times, like, he's practically called Ilsa a hooker many times. He's just abused everybody around him. He sticks his neck out for nobody. And then what? He's going to give up this paragon of goodness to go to the concentration camp and then run off with his wife at the end of the movie? That would never happen. Like, there's just no way this movie can end any other way than it does. Well, I honestly go ahead, Rick, are both like trying to be the better man in this situation. They're almost like competing for who's going to be the better man. Like I, I feel like I, I could see a world where Lazlo's like, hey, you know, you guys clearly had a thing like she, she clearly like prefers you.

1:17:46 I don't want to lock her down. I don't want to lock her down in a forever relationship where she's not 100% into it. Like, I guess I could, I feel like they could have sold that. But yeah, I, I which. Is the the American in Paris ending Brad right like a. 100. Percent. He's just like, yeah, I can see that You love Gene Kelly. And then that's how the movie ends. I like, I like the idea of the two of them, Bogart and Paul, Hon Reed just arguing back and forth like, no, you go, no, you go. And then she just sneaks off and goes by herself. And then that's how the movie ends. That, I think that's the that's the plausible third ending that we didn't get. With with Claude Rains, the two of them. Yeah, but I feel like the, the, the fact that I mean, you usually see like these movies that are regarded as these, you know, pillars of the romantic movie.

1:18:36 Usually the theme of all romantic movies and ROM coms and, and great love stories is that love conquers all. And like the, the entire sort of point of Casablanca is like, no, love doesn't conquer all. There's there's some things that are more important than that. And that still feels novel even. What did you say? 8083 years removed from when it came out. It's crazy that that still comes off as novel, but it really does, at least for me. When I watch it, it's still there's still it feels like a surprise or A twist. I mean, it makes me think about Saint Augustine a little bit and like properly ordered loves that. Like it's not that love doesn't win out, it's love for something greater than a relational love.

1:19:25 And I, I think that's what makes the movie have eternal enduring qualities is because as humans, we kind of recognize that like, yes, relational love is one of the highest things we ought to aspire towards, but there's times in our life where duty and responsibility calls us even higher than that relational love. Right. And it's and I feel like movies that have staying power that sort of stick with you have that sort of note of ambiguity. So like I go back and forth between what you just said, you know, about the different kinds of love and the romance of a romance of a relationship that has a natural endpoint.

1:20:13 Like they're like, they have this romance and it means a lot to them because it is. It's it has an end point, like they're always going to remember this period, but it's also this thing that they can't recapture. And like that is part of romance in some ways, that it's this thing that like just can't last for forever. And again, I feel like, I feel like that's another point that still feels fresh even watching it like 83 years later. Well, and the the thing for me that sticks out about, you know, Rick's character arc is that he sells the cafe and kills Strasser and, and does all this knowing that he's going to send Laszlo and and Ingrid Bergman off, that he's going to be stuck there, Which shows that in his mind, that conversation he has with with Cloud Raines at the end of like, hey, I think I'm going to go back into gun running or fighting for Free France or, you know, whatever they insinuate he's going to go do has been in his mind.

1:21:20 Like now that I've received consolation and closure around this relationship with Ingrid Bergman, I'm going to go back to fighting for the things I believe in because this wound has been closed up. And I, I think like that's the thing that for me this time around, I caught that I didn't necessarily before was those last few lines where he's like, yeah, I'm going to head down and get into a few scraps and, you know, start start doing what I used to do. And that's like, that's the power of the final line of the movie. I think this is going to be a long and fruitful relationship because they both are fighting for something bigger than their vices that have been displayed throughout the movie. Yeah, I mean, you know, it's your point about ordered loves too, right?

1:22:06 Like, this got him back in the game and he could have gone off with Ingrid Bergman and kind of gotten back in the game that way, gone back to the person that he gone back to the person he thought he was in Paris, right? But he recognized like a it's the right thing to do. And, and he even says at one point, like when he saw her willing to do whatever it took to get those letters of transit back like that unlocked for him, like she really loves this guy. And, and he deserves her way more than I do. And the thing that I'm made to do that I should be doing is what I was doing before, which is helping the. Being a gun runner. I do love, there's a couple things about the ending that I love to your point, Brad, that like they're just having this casual like, yeah.

1:22:48 So what are you going to do now after he he shot a man in the heart 36 seconds earlier, and he's just laying there bleeding. And they're like, yeah, so what's what's next for old Humphrey Bogart? Super casual conversation. And then there's also this great moment where he sends them off on the plane. Victor Laszlo shakes his hand and says, like, welcome back to the fight. And he's like, yeah, yeah. One more thing, I just need you to know I banged your wife last night, and I really need you to understand. And Victor Laszlo's like, OK, I understand this is how things work in war. And he's like, no, no, no, listen, she really wanted to pretend she was. She was in love and super hard like she was. Her leg was quivering that entire time like it was it was crazy, but I know it didn't mean anything. It was just listen.

1:23:39 I need you to understand. It's just this animal sexual thing that we have between us. Like we just cannot keep our paws off each other. We're like practically connected at the crotch. And I just, I know, you know, aside from just like the wetness and the fluids that we shared, like that is not the mature kind of love that I know you guys share. So like you guys, you you should, you should go off together. I know that I'm never going to see you again. This is not really necessary. I just need you to know for my own sake of just cleansing it, getting it off my chest. Best sex I've ever had. Have a good. Trip What? What a Lay, What a? Lay it. Is, I mean, I like that it's sort of this ode to personal growth.

1:24:22 You know, like, like most movies like this or most movies in general, they sort of like the, there's an idea of like redemption and getting back to the person that you always were or that you that you're individuality is like a constant. And this is kind of like cutting against that in a little way where he's like, he's he's leaving this chapter of himself behind in a way and he's OK with that. And it's like it's a kind of a thing that you don't see in a lot of movies, I would say. Yeah, yeah. And it's for me, it's not just that, it's that he's also recognizing like the the chapters closed, but there's actually somebody better for her than me. And I have to be mature enough to recognize that specific thing despite how badly I want that.

1:25:10 And that's that's a really natural segue for me to get into our last segment of the day, which we call let's make it a double. We're near the end of the episode, so thanks listening to the film and Whiskey show. Let's pair another film with this one, even if it's struggling. It's the final segment of the day. Now let's make it a double. Let's Make It a Double is the part of the show where we pick a movie to pair up with this one to make the perfect double feature. Vince totally forgot to mention this to you, so we'll let. You go last. Year totally forgot to come up with an answer for this. There's been some really good ones thrown out here today. Vince, you mentioned The Great Gatsby earlier, and I think that would be like a fantastic pairing, kind of going the opposite direction from this one, though.

1:25:51 I think based on the theme that we've hit on here of being a grown up about love and recognizing when closure needs to happen and how you can't recapture a moment in the past, I started thinking, Brad, about past lives, one of my favorite movies, but to keep it more chronologically close to this one, I'm going to pair it up with the other movie that we've talked about on that subject, and that is Brief Encounter, one of our very favorite movies from the World War 2 era. Just a great romance movie in which people have to be grown-ups and recognize when a relationship is over. And I think it kind of hits those same notes as Casablanca, Brad. Dude, I, I, I need to come back to brief encounter that the, the line where I think it's a narration line where she says like, it's so easy to lie when you're so deeply trusted, so easy and so very degrading.

1:26:47 Just that one has stuck with you man. Oh, what a great. I think it's one of my favorite lines of any film. It's so freaking good. Brief Encounter, good movie. I am going to go in the direction of prescient films that were like really bold in calling out the Nazis for what they were. I'm going to go with 1939's The Great Dictator. A movie that you didn't love, by the way. Not my favorite but still one of my absolute favorite like gags of all time. With the the typewriter and he says one word and she types for like 2 minutes straight and then he talks for like a minute straight and she types 3 words.

1:27:38 Absolutely the greatest gags of all time. All right, Vince, you're up, man. Did you? Think of something I can't. I was about to say the great Dictator and now I'm like lost trying to think of like another just like stridently anti fascist film that's also great. Like, there's not that many of them, are there? That's kind of sad, I. Mean. I'm sure there are. I'm just not thinking of them off the top of my head, man. It's also, yeah, like the things that stick out in my mind is, you know, like that it was such like a an anti fascist movie that is also prescient like that.

1:28:22 It came out at a time when that was still like, an open question. Oh man. Team America. World Police. Yeah. There it is. That's the one I don't know, Vince, like I hey, I think you're you're allowed to share yours with Brad. We've had the same one many times. But I do think that Gatsby would be a fantastic pairing with this. Like just thematically. Like when I think, yeah, like the book for sure. But like, does the movie hold up to to to this one? Probably for something like Doctor Strangelove, yeah, you know, a different war, but. Vince, this is an audio based format, man, you got to. Pick. I know I'm trying. I'm trying to. Well, like I had the, I had the Great Dictator in mind, and now I'm trying to think of another one.

1:29:06 Yeah, I got nothing. All right, so I'm, I'm going with Brief Encounter. Brad and Vince are both going with The Great Dictator, which would make just a really, really good triple feature of movies from that 1940 to 1942 range. Guys, it's time for us to get into final scores on Casablanca, the kind of movie that it doesn't seem necessary to talk about final scores with. But shockingly, back in season 1, Brad gave this movie a 9.5 out of 10, the lowest score Casablanca has ever received from anyone. So I guess the real question here, I'm giving it a 10. Brad, have you come up to A10 or are you still sitting at a sub 10 score here? I have been thinking about it all day. I, I got up at 5:15 this morning, starting it off with a bang.

1:29:57 Yeah, I watched Casablanca and I, I was thinking throughout because, Bob, you and I would both agree. Like, for a movie to be 10 out of 10, it doesn't have to be a perfect movie because, like, there is no such thing as a perfect movie. And so it really took me down this rabbit hole throughout the day, just percolating in my brain of like, what makes a movie a perfect movie for me, I would say that Casablanca has a few stumbles. It has the flashback scene that I don't love. It has a few lines from Claude Raines, especially early in the film that feel very stilted and like he he just kind of rushes through his lines that I'm like, you could have just had one more take and he he probably would have gotten it.

1:30:48 But aside from those things and and Vince, like you said, a lot of the setup at the start of the film is kind of wooden and it's the corn that you kind of want to like spit out until you get to the corn that you really enjoy. I think that the the eternal enduring themes of what heartbreak can do to a man, of what closure can do to for anyone, of fighting for something larger than your own personal desires. I think this is a 10 out of 10, Bob. We did it. Yeah. Can I go back to make it a double? Sure.

1:31:29 I have I have answers now. Speaking of not not knowing how to deal with closure, Vince Mancini, let's do it. Exactly. OK, so my choices on the subject of sort of like the temporariness of love and and the idea of like having a relationship that can only exist in this one certain circumstance. And that's part of the beauty of it. I'm gonna go with eternal sunshine and or call me by your name. I feel like they like those are sort of about like romances that can only exist in like a very specific time or place. And I feel like that is, you know, if not the main theme of Casablanca, like one of them.

1:32:13 And yes, this is easily a 10 out of 10 for me. 10s across the board from us here on film and whiskey, but we like to know what you guys think. Is Casablanca an all time 10 out of 10 for you? How many times have you seen it? That's what I'd like to know because I feel like once people see Casablanca, they become repeat watchers of Casablanca. You can let us know on any of our social medias, Facebook X Twitter, Instagram, TikTok at Film Whiskey. Or you can join the conversation on our Discord. We are on there every single day talking to you guys, fans of the Film Whiskey podcast. If you want to join the conversation, you can find a link to our Discord at the end of every single one of our show notes.

1:32:56 We want to say thanks again to Vince Mancini for joining us today. Vince, where can we find you? What have you been working on lately? I will have by the time this goes live. I have a big piece in GQ about the Smashing Machine documentary, not the Dwayne Johnson version. Check that out and you can find me at vincemancini.substack.com. All of my movie reviews and writings are there and my podcasts are at patreon.com/fraud Cast. We do a prestige TV rewatch podcast. It started as Pod Yourself a Gun, which was a Sopranos rewatch, and we have since rewatched The Wire and we are currently on to Mad Men. We're calling that season Mad Yourself a Man, but that is at patreon.com slash.

1:33:45 Oh man, I love it. I'm looking forward to that GQ article for sure next week, Brad, we are getting into some weird, dicey, controversial territory as we look at the 1999 Best Picture winner American Beauty. So join us for that one. But until then, I'm Bob Book. I'm Brad G. And we'll see you next time.

1:34:30 Music.