American Beauty (1999) / Crown Royal Blended Canadian Whisky

0:00 In 1999, director Sam Mendes and star Kevin Spacey gave the world a deeply satirical look at the corporatized shell of 90s suburbia. In 2025, we drink a whiskey that begs the question, do you like getting nailed by the king? The film is American Beauty. The whiskey is Crown Royal. Do you get it? Do you get it, Brad? You know, it took me a minute, Bob, I, I, I think I finally understood the reference. Guys, this is the Film and Whiskey podcast. Welcome to the Film and Whiskey podcast, where each week we review a classic movie and a glass of whiskey. I'm Bob Book.

1:08 I'm Brad Gee. And before we go any further in talking about this 1999 Best Picture winner, we've got a big announcement film and Whiskey Nation. Brad, this is your news to share. I the floor is yours, Sir. You can say whatever you want, but ideally the big news. My wife and I have had our third child. Baby, let's. Congratulations Sir, Brad is a dad times 3 and you know I couldn't be happier for you man. This is literally the first time we've talked since you had a baby. I was like save it for the pod. I don't even want to hear how this baby is doing. I, I don't want to be like that guy, but like, since my wife had the baby Bob, I, I, in fact, this is getting into a realm that we don't need to get into, but my wife is filling out the, all the information of like Social Security card and mom and this and that.

2:06 And it asked for the birthing person's gender and it gave her the male and female option. And she goes, she goes. Man, that head was way too big to fit out of a penis. And that'll do it for us this week, folks. Thank you for joining us on the Film and Whiskey podcast. Now, Brad, it's good to have you back. I can already tell how sleep deprived you are because that story would not have made it out in any other episode. But welcome in to Film and Whiskey. In order to balance out Brad and his insane takes, today we have brought along a guest who is joining us for probably what the the 4th or 5th time now it's our friend Noah Getel.

2:54 Noah, how are you, man? Guys, we've met before, but something tells me you're going to Remember Me this time. Let's go. Do you have any huge announcements that that could potentially get us cancelled or just the 1 today? I still do not have any children. OK, that's good to to your knowledge. Yeah, I get it, man. Noah, it's really good to have you back on the show, man. Since the last time we spoke, I have been plugging Baseball the movie everywhere I can possibly think to. I was actually a guest on another unrelated podcast for work and the guy was like, we always ask people for a book recommendation and I was like, Noah could tell baby pick up Baseball the movie. So free promo here for you, my friend. It's a good book and now that the Cleveland baseball season is over, it's the only baseball I'm going to get for like 9 months. Brett.

3:49 Yeah. Well the if you read the chapter on Major League, it does end with that very sentiment that they will lose and you will go watch Major League to make yourself feel better. So, you know, tonight's the night. Guys, that's that's for sure, man. Honestly, what a great. Chaser Man, what a great double feature pairing with American Beauty. Nothing goes better. Than those two. Classics of American cinema. Guys, I want to jump right in today talking about American Beauty. Obviously, this is a movie that we watched way back in season 1. And folks, if you are new to the podcast, welcome into Film and Whiskey. Each week we review a classic movie and a new glass of whiskey. This season we are going back to all the films we reviewed in our very first season and asking ourselves if they held up. And we have finally arrived at one of the more controversial films in our Season 1 lineup.

4:43 Controversial a little bit because of the subject matter. I think in the age of of cancel culture, this movie has it's not even really taken on its own terms so much anymore. It's more controversial because of who's in it now. And I think that we'll get, we're going to have to get into that, Brad. That Thora, that Thora Birch, all of her controversy. She's the worst, am I right? As we get into the movie, I have to ask you, Brad, had you watched this movie in the interim between Season 1 and Season 10? Bob, this is a very rare answer to that question. Yes, I have really. I made I made my 2 best friends sit down and watch it and they felt very uncomfortable and they liked it a lot.

5:29 Like, hey, guys, I need you to like, flank me on both sides of this couch, like, like Allison Janney and Wes Bentley on either side of Chris Cooper. Can you just like as we watch this movie, as I watch this film? No, I'm gonna throw this over to you, man. We gave you a list of movies to choose from, and this was, I think it gave us a couple options. But you were like, I will for sure join you for American Beauty if no one has signed up for that. So my first question to you, what the hell man? It's my favorite movie of all time. No, no. It's not no, no, no, Come on. Why No, because I like digging into the thorny ones.

6:09 You know, like this was a movie. Like a lot of people, I loved it when it first came out and then I saw the critical reappraisal of it where like it literally there are dozens of articles written by esteemed film critics like saying this is the movie I have turned the most on over the years from my original opinion. And that really interests me. You know, as somebody who likes to look at movies through the lens of like, we know what were the values of the of the, the country and Hollywood when it came out versus now. Like those are the discussions that interest me the most. So I thought it'd be a fun one to dig in to, a difficult one to dig into and and I'm not really doing film criticism anymore so I can't get cancelled.

6:53 So I thought I was the perfect person to do this. Very. Beautiful. You, you just cancel others vicariously. You come on our show to get us cancelled now. Well, guys, Michael, if we're going down, we're going down together here. Brad. I think that it's a perfect time to segue into our first segment of the day, which we call, Brad explains. Brad's going to give us the movie plot with only 60 seconds ticking on the clock, so let's go ahead and do your take with this little segment that we call Brad explains. Brad explains is the part of the show where Brad breaks down the plot of the film that he has just seen often for the first time. Obviously is Brad's at least third time seeing this movie now.

7:35 Brad, I got to ask you man, anything different jump out to you this time through or is this movie been kind of consistent in in how you've viewed it and thought about it? I found myself this time through really intrigued by following kind of the thread of like Ricky being the most mature human being in the film, like that, like that. For whatever reason, that just like frustrated me and was fascinating to me all at the same time. And it it feels like this artistic sense of like it's the people who feel the world that understand the world that I'm like, I don't know if that like sticks through all of Sam Mendes's films or if that's an Alan Ball, you know, type of thing, but that that was what I found myself focused on most.

8:29 I also was like, as I was preparing for this specific segment, I was like, there's a weirdly a like large amount of things that happened in this movie. I think that was my biggest take away this third time through watching American Beauty. I was like, I forgot how much happens and it's like it's like pretty clean 2 hour film. Like it's not like we're hitting 23240. Like you're in, you're out and yet thing after thing and like there's like 6 different the character arcs and storylines happening and they all operate with each other differently and they all draw different things out of each other.

9:12 I I had forgotten how much of A web this movie really is. Yeah, it gets a little convoluted towards the end of the film and I think some would say contrived and and I'm sure we'll talk about the way that all of these storylines end up intersecting each other and overlapping each other. But in order to do that, Brad, you've got to spoil this movie. So folks, if you have not seen this 25 plus year old film now hit pause here. I would recommend go watch American Beauty. I think it's a worthwhile watch. Come back and join us for the rest of the episode. But Brad, you have one minute to break down the plot of this film and go. American Beauty is a film that follows Lester Burnham as the main character and his family as they try to figure out what it means to be authentic and real in a world that has convinced them that pursuing all of these exterior things are important. Lester finds himself enamoured with one of his daughter's high school friends and is regularly fantasizing about her. His wife is trying to make it as a real estate agent and keep perfection as like her goal in life and ends up having a affair with one of the other real estate people in town. His daughter ends up dating their new neighbor who is a pot selling in kind of introverted, artistically minded person. And her friend who her dad wants

10:43 to sleep with is obsessed with being a model and being wanted and attractive and all these things. And Chris Cooper is a in the closet farther than any human being you could have ever imagined. And at the end of the day, he shoots Kevin Spacey because because he's gay. That's the, that's the reason very concisely. I like that. There was nothing concise about that, Brad explains. Until the reason for the murder. And then it was like, yeah, yeah. It's because he's gay. I felt, I felt the clock pushing up against me. I, I, I didn't have much time left, Bob.

11:24 Oh, man. All right, guys, I think that, you know, there's some, to Noah's point, there's some thorny places we can go with this discussion. I think I want to zoom out a little bit and kind of contextualize the movie. And that's why I appreciate Noah being here, because there's a lot of context to add to the movie. I think the first place I'd like to start is kind of focusing in on where does this land on the spectrum of satire? And it's partially because I've had one battle after another on the brain for the last week or so. No, I I know you saw the movie and loved it. I saw the movie and I am one of the like 5 people that it did not fully work for.

12:06 And I think it's because they didn't quite nail the tone that the movie needed. And I've been thinking about like the different types of satire that we've seen throughout the years. You know, you've got your complete farces like a Doctor Strangelove. You've got things where the world feels kind of Askew and absurdist like a la Coen Brothers. Movies I think are really good at that. And then I think 1 Battle After Another was kind of that like Catch 22 type elevated, winking, witty. There's just something a little bit off about the world, but it's not enough to really be like farcical. And then you've got a movie like American Beauty, which I feel like is even more conservative in the way that it shows the absurdities of the world. It's more just that like everyone's kind of snide and sarcastic and there's some good punch lines, but the world itself is very, very similar to what you see in reality. And I think a good maybe touch point is a movie like Office Space, which I think comes out the same year as this movie. And Office Space just goes maybe one step further into the comedy realm.

13:16 But I'm wondering, you know, Brad, to your point and know it to you, you guys have both talked about this being a satire already. And so a, do you see it in that sort of legacy of satires and, and where would you kind of locate it on that spectrum? Well, I think it has satirical elements, but I think so a big, a big problem for me with satires is when they try to also be sentimental at the same time. Like those two things are oil and and water for me, because satire requires some emotional detachment. Like, that's the only way satire really works is if you are not fully engaged and sympathizing with these characters, if you're looking at them from Askew, if you're laughing at them.

14:06 And to try to bringing this emotionality that that Sam Mendes and Alan Ball bring to American Beauty is really when it it loses me, I have to say. And I think, I think, you know, Brad talked about how much. I have a lot more to say about that. But for the purposes of this question, Brad talked about how much stuff there was in this movie. It's not just plot, it's tone. I mean, this is a satire. It is a domestic drama. It's sort of a mystery. They frame the whole thing as a who killed Lester Burnham kind of thing. I mean, from the very beginning, from the first scene of the movie. And if I, if I had a note for the script early on, it would be like, let's just be one thing.

14:48 And maybe that would be your note for one battle after another as well. Because that that's a lot of a lot of movie at the same time. But I I think American Beauty works at its best when it is satire, when it is funny, and a lot less well when it takes itself seriously. It it works well in the moments where like Kevin Spacey, like just looks at the camera goes and just like the little head tilt before he before he throws the asparagus plate like, oh, it freaking works. Dude, Spacey does this thing at multiple points in the movie. I think it's the asparagus scene. And there's a couple others like when he hands the bag of fast food out the window where he does like a bobble head effect as he does it like like his like his head is attached to his arm doing it.

15:36 And it's real slight and subtle and it's just so freaking good, man. It's a really, I don't mean to bleed into the performances here too much, but part of the reason that I think the movie ultimately succeeds is that the performances are so committed. And while they are like a touch heightened, they never seem like they're in a different movie from each other or like characters who exist in a world that's not being portrayed here like it. You know, I think my gripe about this, the first time we watched it, Brad was Annette Bening's character because she is so heightened throughout the movie. But then I watched it this time and I was like, Annette Bening freaking kills it.

16:17 And she's so good at this movie. Because, you know, maybe it's just that I've gotten older when you see people who are fake to their core like she is, and so deeply driven by those insecurities, I wonder to myself sometimes, like, what are those people like behind closed doors? And it turns out they're exactly like that. That's just how they are, you know? And and I think that she does a great job of portraying that. I say all that to say, I think that the the tone the movie is going for, it really is a balancing act to Noah's point, and whether it succeeds or not, I think falls on the script a lot more than it falls on the actors because I really don't have a lot of notes on the performances here. Yeah, I, I mean to speak to Annette Bening a little bit. Like, dude, that moment where she pushes herself up against the the window with the shutters and she starts slapping herself because she didn't sell the house. And you're just like, but yeah, like, this is just her childhood playing over and over and over again. She freaking nails her part.

17:22 And I, I would say across the board, I think even the younger actors in this film really, really do an incredible job of bringing to life this world that no, I would agree with you. It like it's just exaggerated enough that it feels like you don't quite know what Mendez is always going for. But man, that the performances across the board, it makes sense to me why it won a lot of Academy Awards. I you know whose performance really popped to me this time around was Mina Suvaris. Like I thought she would. She is like genuinely great in this movie. She brings so much depth to that character that like the first time you watch it, you just you, you don't really see and you see her breakdown at the end. But when you watch it knowing like what her kind of her secret is, I think, you know, that character could have been a stock character.

18:18 It could have been a caricature in a lot of ways, but she she really brought a lot to it. I was very impressed with her. It sounds like we're moving into the performances here because we've talked about like 3 people already, but I think I'll start it off this way. I'll give my my mean guy take. The only bad performance in this movie or the only actor who I felt had incredibly limited range was Thora Birch as the daughter. I thought that every line reading, like every line reading was very, very bad. And the moments of hers that worked are when she doesn't have any lines and she gets to like show complex emotion on her face. But you know, Brad, I think when we talked about this the last time you had you had brought up Wes Bentley as a guy that you were like, man, that what a boring guy, what a boring character.

19:05 And this time watching him, the entire movie hinges on that plastic bag scene, which has been parodied to death. And people who are not fans of this movie pillory that scene. Again, I think any fault people might have with the movie is on the writing, which is sometimes seen as overwrought. But to be able to put a camera on this guy's face and have him tell a story about a plastic bag dancing with him and revealing the face of God, and he's choking up crying about how much beauty there is in the world? It freaking worked for me, man. And it worked because the performance was so committed and the performance was so authentic.

19:48 It felt like I was looking into that guy's real inner thoughts as he gave that speech. As silly as that speech might be, it works for me, Brad. Yeah, I I'm with you, dude. This time through, I found myself so drawn in by his character and his characterization of it, that his ability to think deeply about the world, his ability to use his attention well. And I think, I think that's like, you know, the key element of his character. He's always. Mendez is always drawing our attention to the way he pays attention to the world through his use of videotaping everything.

20:31 And when you look at every single other character in the film, all of their attention is on the wrong thing constantly. And it seems like, you know, he is the hero of our Ricky is the hero of our story because he has the ability to pay attention to the things that matter. And Thora Birch is kind of slowly coming along that way with him. And everybody else is just spiraling out into their own bits of chaos because of their inability to pay attention to the things that matter. Yeah. I'm listening to guys talk about this and I'm a little distracted because I don't know when it's my when it's the right time for me to say. I think this movie is pretty bad. No, no, no.

21:20 No. You're out of here. We're kicking you out, man. Well, I can't, I can't let this keep going without me saying that because I do think there are some, I do think there are some good performances, although I think even some of the good performances are in kind of in the wrong movie in some ways. And I, I, you know, when this movie came out, there were a lot of movies at this time about guys who work in offices. You mentioned one of them before who are so miserable that the only way they can survive is to sort of develop an alternative personality. And in Office Space, he gets hypnotized.

22:03 And in the Matrix, you know, he goes into the Matrix and in Fight Club he becomes Tyler Durden. And in this movie, you know, Kevin Spacey transforms into this other guy. Basically. It is sort of like he becomes Tyler Durden in a way, right? But I, the difference between those movies in this movie is that this movie does not understand how like inherently juvenile and contemptible that character is like in those other movies. Like in those other movies, we're not supposed to think these are great guys, you know, like, and in this movie, I, I don't know exactly what it is because I don't think it's fair to say they that he's the hero of the movie, but I do think the movie is aligned with him too much. I think the movie sees these events through his eyes to a degree that sort of implicates him as our de facto hero. Even though I agree with what you're saying that the Ricky Fitz character is actually like the film's, you know, moral center in a way.

23:07 But I don't know if it's Kevin Spacey's kind of sitcomy performance or if it's the script, which, you know, I, I found it problematic the way that it, it really blames Annette Benning's character Carolyn for their marital problems so much more than it does Lester. So many scenes where it's like, oh, if she could only loosen up, you know, everything would be OK. But but throughout the film, I felt like they misunderstand this character. They misunderstand how much we're going to dislike him for trying to fuck a 16 year old, pardon my language. And, and they and they misunderstand the fact that he's just a a little jerk, you know, and I know, I know there's more to it than that.

23:51 And and straight white middle class men have problems too. But but I, I it really was a core fundamental problem for me in the movie. Yeah, I think that's that's totally fair. First of all, you should still be doing film criticism 'cause that I think, was perhaps the clearest delineation of why the movie doesn't work. One of my big complaints about the the backlash to this movie is that a lot of it just seems like film Twitter backlash. Like it, it doesn't have a lot of substance and it's just become like American Beauty sucks. So we don't like it. And it, it becomes an echo chamber where there's really no reckoning with the film itself. So, so thank you for that. I think that to your point, the thing that caught me this time around was I, I, I had to remove myself quite a few times from the movie and ask myself, like, am I imposing 2025 woke goggles on my reading of this movie too much? Because in 1999, a lot of the things that were happening are objectively not OK, but audiences were at least willing to see it through to the end.

24:59 Whereas I think now in 2025, a lot of it's like he's a predator. Click movies off, you know? And Kevin Spacey's personal life certainly has not helped that argument at all. I do think that at the end of this movie when he's about to sleep with Mina Suvari's character and, you know, she says, this is my first time. And it, it snaps him back to reality in in a really dramatic and profound way. And he covers her in a blanket and she starts crying and says, I feel so stupid. And he gives her a hug and she says, I'm sorry. And then he says, you don't have anything to be sorry about. And then they cut to the next scene. And I was like, you should be sorry.

25:40 You're a 42 year old man. What are you not? You're taking no blame for any of this situation that you have caused. What are you doing, man? So I, I do, I do find that there's definitely points where they let Lester off the hook in a way that the other characters don't get to get off the hook, but also the other characters don't get shot in the head. So I mean it kind of balances out. I was, I was about to say, not getting off the hook would also include not being dead at the end of the film. Like sure. I don't, I don't know about that. I mean, in, in a sense you're correct, but in another sense, the guy dies with a smile on his face and we're listening to him talk at the beginning of the end of the movie.

26:23 He gets the voice over. He's fine. Wherever he is. He seems very, very happy and at. Peace So so no, what I hear you saying is as long as you get to do a voice over about your life from whatever your afterlife is you're you're. You're happy. How bad could it? Yeah. Right, I want to go back to something Noah was talking about before and it's it's the 1999 of it all. So 1999 obviously being regarded as one of the best years for movies ever. I think people like to look at the Oscars best picture lineup and and Pooh Pooh it because you've got movies like the Green Mile, which I love that movie. I know that it's not a film Twitter favorite. The Cider House Rules.

27:04 Objectively, I hate that. That movie sucked, bro. But then, you know, you've got movies left out like a Fight Club, like The Matrix and on and on down the list. And so this movie kind of catches all of the heat because it won best picture. You know, it's like a Forrest Gump situation, like Forrest Gump beats Shawshank and Pulp Fiction and Quiz Show. And so it's like now we hate Forrest Gump. Sometimes the worst thing that can happen to a movie's reputation is winning Best Picture. You know this movie percent man. I don't know. That people would like it if it didn't win, but I do know it wouldn't have the target on its back that it it has had since then. Noah, you are only a a few years older than us, so I don't mean to make you like the resident old guy on the podcast here, but you were much more aware of what was going on in the world in 1999 than Brad and I were at age 9.

27:53 So I, I want to ask a little bit about, you know, the cultural political climate as well, because there's a reason that all of these like angry white guy movies are getting made in 1999. And I also think that we have to situate this kind of satirical movie among the other satires that are coming out like a fight. Fight Club is a satire. Like it's not super funny, but it's a satire. And Office Space is obviously a satire. You look at a movie that comes out like a year before this, Primary Colors, which is just lampooning the the Clinton administration and all of his scandals. Like there's a lot of comedy happening that is really trying to skewer the American cultural moment. And I'm just kind of wondering, like, is that lost today when we look back on American Beauty?

28:44 It's hard for me to answer as somebody. Well, so I was 19 when this movie came out. So I wasn't so clued into like what adults were really seeing in the world at the time. I was more into smoking pot everyday and playing NBA2K on my I think it was Sega Dreamcast maybe. But, you know, I mean, I think, look, this is these these were the first Gen. X movies really that were being made at this time. But Gen. X film makers were getting their shot to tell their story. And what they wanted to talk about was their, you know, they're ineffectual fathers on some level. Like, that's a big, big thread running through these movies. They definitely want to talk about the fact that they, they didn't want to work for the man.

29:30 They didn't want to sell out. That's what these movies were about to, you know, you could throw Reality Bites in the mix, which is sort of like the ultimate Gen. X movie came out a few years earlier. But I think they really kind of tell us who they are. I don't know if they tell us, like, what was happening in the country, although there were sex scandals at this time for sure. And this movie, you know, Primary Colors is a weird one because I see that movie as not exactly a defense of what Clinton did. But there's this sense that like, hey, you know, it's politics. Stuff happens, man, and it's just a big circus and you got to roll with it. Which, you know, I think Mike Nichols is probably talking about his time in Hollywood more than than politics when he makes that movie.

30:13 But that's the idea. So I don't think any of these movies were really willing to look at what was happening two young women at this time. And I don't think America was either. You know, when I look back in at the Lewinsky scandal, I was a kid that I didn't really know what was going on. But I think it's atrocious. Like, I don't want to get too political, but I think it's atrocious the way the Democratic Party, the party supposedly of women like covered for Bill Clinton and made excuses for him and everything. So I don't think we as a culture, we're really ready to look at that. And I think, you know, this generation, I mean, these guys, Sam Mendes was probably like, I don't know, 30 years old or something when he made this movie.

30:53 But all these guys were young guys and they were, they were espousing and inherently kind of juvenile point of view. And I don't mean juvenile as an insult. I mean, they were young and they were saying, you know what? I, I, I want to, I don't want to work in an office. I want to rock'n'roll all night and, and, and party everyday. And that's really what this movie and, and these movies as a whole are about. Nothing more complicated than that. I I was going to say, it seems to me, you know, this being a third time through for American Beauty, there's not much judgement on anybody. Like I it doesn't seem to me like Mendez has a position of trying to make a deep statement about the world.

31:36 It just seems like it's kind of like, yeah, there's just shitheads all around you in the world and we should expect them to be that way. And I think that the reason I say that is the way the film treats Lester's obsession with this 16 year old is like, yeah, that's just what a 42 year old emasculated guy would do. And that like, that's just normal. And you're like, I that is not normal. Like that is something that hopefully as a society we are moving beyond to think that it's just normal that a 42 year old, you know, it's one thing to be a 42 year old dad and go wow, that high school girl that is friends with my daughter is pretty and then move on with his life and never think about it again. It's another thing to just act like it's normal for what Lester's doing throughout the film. And it seems like you see that for a lot of the characters. Like, even for her, it doesn't feel like there's a lot of judgement for Angela's character that she wants to sleep around to get to the top.

32:43 See, when I, when I watch this movie, like it, it, it recalls, I'm sure intentionally Lolita in a lot of ways, right? But Lolita is a satire like that is a dark satire. You do not think any of these men, either of these men are good guys at all. But this movie, they try to kind of take that idea and cram it into something a little more sitcomy. And that's really what I think doesn't work about it for me. Like, that could be very provocative if you want to make something truly avant-garde and say, like, look at this sitcomy family man who's trying to sleep with his his daughter's best friend. But they're not making something avant-garde. They're making something crowd pleasing at the same time.

33:26 And I don't think those ingredients work together. Well, and I want to I want to talk a little bit about the word normal because like when you think about like what was the norm back then? Obviously what I'm not saying like every 42 year old man was lusting after a 16 year old. But there are we, we have lost the sacred texts of the creepy late 90s in a lot of ways. Like I don't know if you guys remember this like they used to have, like I remember watching like MTV, VH1 and they would have like countdowns on of like underage celebrities until they like days till they turn 18 and it's OK for us to want to have sex with them now.

34:06 Like which which is hilarious. Like just masking the fact that you clearly want to have sex with this girl right now at 16, but you can't say that in polite society until she's 18. So this was the kind of thing we were dealing with in 1999. And so it's it's objectively creepy. It was also something that I think a lot of people could recognize as something that was happening in society. And I do think Noah too. One of the other things that is it really stands out to me now is like being a millennial turning 18 in the 2008 recession and then like everything being everything after that, being like, you have student loans and you can't afford anything now. So like, start from that point looking at a movie where these young boomers are able to make these flippant decisions with their lives of like, I'm going to quit my job. And, and like, his wife obviously is like, OK, so I have to pay the mortgage now, right?

35:01 Like, they talk about finances a little bit, but then at one point Lester says his salary is like $60,000. And you're like, oh, man. Like how how times have changed when the financial security of a family could just be up like thrown into upheaval in 1999. And it really didn't affect that much. You know, Like, it it, it just seems like there were very different times. And these people were much more privileged than I think they realized at the time. Well, the people in this movie at least. Like I don't know that. That's yeah, yeah, for sure. You know what it would actually be like in real life? My hunch is if you quit your job and and start working fast food and then buy really expensive classic sports car, you actually are going to have some severe financial problems. But the film, the film is not interested in the realness of this at all that, and I don't really mean that as a criticism. I have other criticisms of it, but I think not wanting to get into the economics of it is like that's a justifiable decision in a way.

36:02 Yeah. And at the end of the day, like the movie is just focused on the transformation of Lester from a spineless coward to somebody who's I've manned up and I'm taking control of my life. And he clearly isn't. But also he you know, he got that 60 grand all paid out. He got his severance, he got health benefits. He can blow it all. And you know, we're, we're not looking at the next the the 10 year plan, Bob. Well it's a good thing he got shot because he would had some some serious bills to pay after that. He probably had a nice life insurance policy. Honestly, it worked out best for everybody. Yeah. Yeah, for everybody.

36:45 Oh man, guys, before we go to break, I do, I do think it's time to talk about Kevin Spacey. Obviously, like, you know, let's put the disclaimer here. Like it. We all know what Kevin Spacey is accused of doing. He to this day vehemently denies it. I'm pretty sure he's been found liable in in court for doing it, but he's no longer criminally liable for it. So there's no consequences legally for him. He is persona non grata in Hollywood. We understand, right? And I'm sorry to be the like, let's separate art from the artist guy right now. But like, this is 1999, we were not aware of these allegations for another, you know, almost 20 years about the guy. We're going to talk about this performance, which gets him an Academy Award. And I say all that, Brad, to kind of cover my ass a little bit when I say this might be my favorite Kevin Spacey performance because I I just recently went to the theatre to see seven.

37:36 I'd never seen it on the big screen. Holy shit, what a movie, what a picture. Still have not seen 7. It is, yeah. I mean, it's it's it's mind blowing. But seeing Kevin Spacey in this, it's it's one of those things where like sometimes you have to see an actor in very tonally different roles in in really close succession to be reminded of what their range actually was. Because towards the end there, I think Spacey was just becoming a caricature of himself when he was doing the House of Cards stuff. But I've never seen him this loose in a movie. I've never seen him like this. I know for a fact that like Jack Lemmon is a big inspiration on him. This performance has Jack Lemmon written all over it In the physicality, in the line deliveries. I could see Jack Lemmon, you know, apartment era Jack Lemmon being slotted into this movie and giving a very similar performance to what space he's trying to do here. I like that a lot.

38:34 That's a that's a good take, Bob. Thank you very much. I like it a lot. I like it a lot too. I, but I, I don't totally agree with the performance working. I think, I think Kevin Spacey's working really hard and he's making a lot of choices and I respect that very much. But I, I, you know, I don't know if it's his fault or the director's fault, but the tone, the tone of his performance does not always work for me. There's too, there's too much winking at the camera. There's too much like leaning forward and saying something in a quiet voice, like, you know, like there's a, there's something contrived about his performance. There's something too mannered about it, too measured about it that I just don't like. And I, and I will acknowledge he's got a tough job because he has to hold all of these tones basically in his performance. And it's really hard and maybe no actor could do it, but I like him best when he is playing a bad guy. Like I think, I think if you look over his filmography, it's pretty clear that when he tries to to play. And to be clear, you don't think he's a bad guy in this movie, Then you think he's the good guy. Who you?

39:41 Want the hero of the film? Yeah, if, if, if they pitched this character as just like a juvenile, sleazy, you know, a hole, I think he would be really good for it. But I think they like him too much. They like this character too much. And by they, I mean the film makers. But like, when I look over Kevin Spacey's filmography, like my favorite performances of his are, you know, Usual Suspects. Obviously, I love him in LA Confidential. Like I really love him in that movie. And it's kind of similar in that he's a sleazy guy who sort of becomes a goodish guy by the end of it, but he's not like. He's not the main character. He gets to have his little his little journey off to the side while there is somebody who's actually righteous, you know, that Exley character played by Guy Pierce, who kind of holds the movie down.

40:31 And I just think as a as AI, don't I, I, I just don't, I just don't buy him in this role. When all is said and done, he's too. He's too sleazy for me to really like, buy him as a suburban dad and I. Think part of the issue and and for me, it worked because I I felt like something clicked for me in the scene where Annette Bening catches him masturbating in bed next to her. And then they have the big argument and he's talking about like, you know, chafing the carrot, choking the Bishop. Some really great metaphors there. That scene is played like both of their performances and the dialogue is played like an old Hollywood, not screwball comedy, but like that sort of like Rock Hudson, Doris Day era comedy where you have these like zingers, not quite one liners, but it's all about the timing. And it's about a, you know, being a little bit more clever than people actually are.

41:32 And I realized at that moment that like the comedy in this movie is pitched to like old Hollywood. And I kind of wonder if that is a little bit intentional because this movie is so much about, like, the facade of suburbia, the facade of, like, this 1950s American idyllic dream. To the point where, like, by the end of the movie, when all the masks are off and Annette Bening is just like, weeping in the closet, grabbing his shirts and letting out this scream. And you finally get Spacey kind of letting down his guard and everything clicking for him and him realizing how juvenile he's been. I think that juxtaposition of tones is what makes the ending of the movie work 'cause it's like everybody realizes how full of shit they've been the whole movie. And now finally it's like, oh, we're all maybe capable of having a real moment.

42:24 And the tragedy of the movie is that it's it's too late for Kevin Spacey at that point, but. That's interesting. So you're saying they're all playing parts throughout the movie, which I think is true, and you're saying that they they harness like kind of contrived a genre kind of energy to convey that to the audience. That's an interesting take. I haven't heard that before. Look. At you, Bob. This is why I bring you on. My guy knows how to stroke an ego. He's very good at this. No, honestly, Bob, I'm I'm kind of with you. I think Spacey is brilliant in the role and for me it comes down to the and I I know this isn't this is the exact opposite of what Noah was saying.

43:08 His sincerity in the role shines through that he is 100% this completely burnt out, angry with his life, just like questioning what the F happened to my life. And you see it when he's trying to, like, seduce Annette Bening on the couch. And he's asking her, like, what happened to us? Like, where'd we go? And like, that's his question He's asking throughout the whole movie is like, when did I become who I am? When did you become who you are? And all of the things he does in response to that question feel authentic and real. And yes, like some of them are a little bit satirical in the way he gets his severance from from his boss by, you know, basically blackmailing them into giving him a good severance. Like there's elements of it that feel little bit overwrought. But in the midst of all that, there's not a single thing that feels like A and then he did this and then he did that. Like it all feels like the story leads him to a place that makes sense for his character to do those things, and with a story underlying that, I think Spacey's performance really takes that character to the next level. I've been thinking a lot about, I've been thinking about Hollywood lately.

44:33 I can't remember what brought it up for me, but do you guys remember in like the early 2000s when a a large cabal of celebrities got really into Kabbalah for a while? Like, that was the religion of choice. Madonna was, I think, leading the charge on that. And it was kind of like the competing weird religion with Scientology for a while in Hollywood. And you, you kind of come to find out about like some of the tenets of the cults that celebrities are attached to in Hollywood. And you're just like, why? Why are people like this? And and then you kind of think about like, what is like Hollywood is just a giant sham where everybody's pretending to be somebody they aren't to get ahead. And I, I mean, I'm making generalizations at this point. But I thought about that watching this movie that like, when you live your life in a preposterous place, like your solutions to your problems are all going to be preposterous. And I think that this movie is just a collection of people who live in a preposterous place in the suburbia of the late 1990s and are trying really desperately hard to fix those problems by, like, doubling down and finding the most ludicrous ways to do so.

45:51 Like Kevin Spacey's response is like, I'm going to quit my job. I'm going to pretend I don't care. I'm going to smoke a bunch of weed and basically become Randy Marsh from South Park for a while. And then, like, at the end of the movie, I'm going to realize this is no way to live. And Annette Bening does the same thing by, like, screwing this other guy, listening to these dumb self help tapes, repeating mantras, and then realizing at the end of the movie this is no way to live. And to your point, Brad, it's it's the kind of thing that is like the tried and true trope of the village idiot is the only sane one in the movie with Ricky. But I don't know, man. Like, I, I know that it is heightened and it's a little bit satirical.

46:32 It doesn't feel that far off to me to how people live their lives in these kind of weird, cloistered, secluded communities across the country. Well, well. Well, what? What is so weird about this community? Like I, I feel like this is a pretty normal average community. I mean, it's a, they're a little more money than average, but they're not like rich rich either, as we know. What what is so unusual about it too? I mean the teenagers seem pretty normal and average to me except for Ricky who is like from another planet. Yeah, I mean, maybe maybe you're right. Maybe it's not the community itself, but it's the sort of rat race life that these people are being asked to live. I I'm not sure.

47:16 Well, now, do you? Sound like a Gen. X or not a millennial I have to say. You know what, Noah, that reminds me too, 'cause you were talking about this being like a a Gen. X movie because Sam Mendes is so young when he directs this and he's very much a Gen. X filmmaker. But I wonder sometimes. Sometimes I'm wondering right now, 'cause it just dawned on me like, is this actually is, is part of the reason this movie doesn't seem to have a message to you, because it's a Gen. X filmmaker making a movie about boomers and millennials from a Gen. X standpoint and failing to locate like, the moral center of that generation. Brad, you said that this movie is like really permissive to everybody in the movie.

48:03 Part of me wonders if it's because, like, that permissiveness or that sort of like, cynical shrug is very emblematic of Gen. X film makers. And he's trying really hard to, like, put that viewpoint onto Lester and onto the kids in the movie. But there's really no Gen. X characters in the movie to kind of take that mantle on. No, there really isn't, man. Maybe, but I I think Ricky Fitz sort of is the Gen. X avatar in the movie. I mean he's the film makers avatar for sure because he is a filmmaker in in the movie.

48:44 No. But he's, you know, he's the one who's like, I don't, I don't have to live like, like either my father figure across the street or my actual father. I'm going to go live however the hell I want. I'm just going to sell weed and treat my jobs like they're meaningless and, you know, just go to New York just because I can. I don't even need an education. I think that's kind of the Gen. X attitude that's present in the film. I will. I will say you talked about contrived characters before. The only character for me that feels really contrived is Ricky's mom. What is the deal with her? Like like Ricky's dad is on the edge of being contrived, but I think Chris Cooper just Oh my God, dude, what a freaking performance. Chris Cooper is incredible.

49:37 The mom. I'm sorry but like the idea that she's that far gone because of Chris Cooper's like militaristic household is ridiculous to me. That you know, Ricky walks in. Hey mom, this is my girlfriend and she just stares for like 5 solid seconds of like radio silence. I'm like. OK, here's the thing. This is why I love the movies, though, because I agree with everything you say. Like I It's a bad character. It doesn't make sense. Allison Janney is trying her best. And the reason that I don't care is because of the very last thing she says to her son when he's like, I'm going to go. And she's just like, she can't muster up anything else except just, like, wear a raincoat.

50:33 And she's like, kind of crying. And I'm like, oh, dude, yeah, A+ performance. I don't care. Your character sucks, but you're doing your best. Allison Janney, This is why we nominate you for Oscars. It's a green. Line. It's the essence of parenting, right? Wear a raincoat. That's all you. That's all you. Yeah. Is that another? Is that another euphemism? Brad, I think it's time for us to hit pause here. We need to go drink some whiskey and we have got a doozy of a whiskey today in Crown Royal, a whiskey I have not tried since season 1. What do you say we jump into that? Let's get to it, man.

51:18 All right, so today we are checking out Crown Royal Blended Canadian Whiskey. Brad, it's been a while since we've had a Canadian whiskey on the show. And that is because frankly, Canadian whiskey is not always that good. And I stand by it. I'm, I'm just going to say it. There are definitely good Canadian whiskeys out there. But part of what makes Canadian whiskey so inexpensive and not beloved by especially bourbon drinkers is that the Canadian whiskey process typically doesn't involve using new charred barrels the way that bourbon will. They typically age their whiskey in used barrels. So they're sourcing barrels from Ireland, from Scotland, from America, from bourbon and rye barrels, and they're aging their whiskey in that.

52:03 And so it is it, it's much less potent because it's extracting less from the wood because these are second, third, fourth fill barrels. But you'll also see Canadian whiskey aged for a lot longer than you would see like a bourbon aged. I think at one point we we may have had a a 20 year Canadian whiskey on this podcast at one time. And it's still only cost like $40. Right. Listen, when it gets up to that age level, you're getting a lot out of the wood and it's not overwrote. And I actually find some really well aged Canadian whiskeys to be quite good that that says nothing about what we're drinking here today. But just ask a a brief little primer on Canadian whiskey. That's why we don't have it that much. I I think it's pronounced primer A. What's that all a boot?

52:53 Am I right? Dude I I'm kind of on the opposite end. Like cheap Canadian whiskey. I'm with you. Not great. Anything from their mid range up. I have really enjoyed what comes out of OH. Absolutely. The the great white N kind of knows what it's doing when it comes to that longer age, stated Whiskeys. So the Crown Royal that we're drinking today, I believe is at least three years old. I think it has to be at least three years old to not carry an age statement. I'm not entirely sure how old it is because this is like the most blended of blended whiskeys. I'm seeing in various places online that Crown Royal is made from a blend of up to 50 different whiskeys.

53:34 Even though that they they claim that roughly 80% of their grain is sourced from Manitoba and the surrounding provinces, it's still such a huge blend that it's not going to have like a super distinct character. It will be probably very consistent from batch to batch because they're just blending so much whiskey here. It is 80 proof, so it barely qualifies to be sold in your local liquor store. I don't want to like knock this though, man. I, we can have AI have a tiny little bottle of Crown Royal. This cost me $0.99. And if it tastes good, I'm going to say that it tastes good. Yeah, I really like, I don't want to be a snob about this. Like it's cheap whiskey. We know what it is. And I think we're going to go into this tasting with that understanding.

54:18 Yeah, absolutely. Dude, when I got under the nose for this, there it is not a complex whiskey Bob, but the the notes that I got were vanilla cream soda, effervescent, just like a really pleasant like sweet experience. It's a 7 out of 10 on the nose. It it's fine. It was good, yeah. Yeah, I'm going to give it a 6 1/2 on the nose because it it smells like it's been watered down, almost like it doesn't have any sort of ethanol that you have to push through to get any notes. I will say that like the second I poured it into my glass, the overwhelming note I got was honeydew, which is like I don't typically get that on whiskey. Sometimes you'll get like pineapple or a little bit of some some sort of a melon.

55:06 This was like just straight honeydew. I thought it was really, really great. And then it became, like you said, cream soda and vanilla really took over for me. It almost reminds me of like a diet cream soda. Like there's a little bit of like an artificial note going on here. But again, to have just those 3 notes on like a, you know, $20 bottle of whiskey is not bad. So I'm going to give it a 6 1/2 on the nose. Yeah, I think the palette, it sticks in that vanilla for me, it turned into like a vanilla bean kind of note. It is very much so like a yellow cake with white frosting. There was like a hint of a light brown sugary vibe going on that I think you're starting to get from the oak. It's a fine palette.

55:49 I'll give it a 6 1/2 out of 10. Yeah, it's really thin. It's really sweet. And then as you kick it to the back of your palate, I think the barley notes really take over. So it reminds me of drinking like a watered down Scotch with like Splenda. Like it's there. There is like a really artificial sweet note to it. I don't know if you've ever made a Godfather cocktail, which is just at one point they were making it with equal parts Scotch and amaretto. That's it. Now people are like, listen, Amaretto's way too sweet. Don't use equal parts. But it reminds me of that. If you get down to like the very bottom of your glass because you're drinking it on the rocks, there's a, there's just an overwhelming sort of like sickly sweet note that's kind of covering up that like blended Scotch note for me.

56:41 Not a huge fan of this one, Brad. I'm only going to give this a 5 out of 10 on the pallet. OK. I mean, so for me, I'm the finish, the sugariness turns into almost like a traditional cane sugar. The brown sugar kind of sticks around. And for me, the only bit of complexity that I had for this entire experience was on the finish. It almost had like a little bit of an ashy tobacco kind of finish that I actually kind of enjoyed because it gave it a little bit of something. It's still not great. I'll give it a 6 1/2 out of 10. Yeah, I mean it, it is what it is. Like, you know, if you're buying Crown Royal, you know what you're getting. However, this I don't think I've ever said this before. Crown Royals flavored whiskeys are among the best flavored like the Crown Royal Apple and the Crown Royal Peach are like S tier flavored whiskey.

57:38 Dude, people love that stuff. Oh, it's and it's really good. And I feel like because this already has that sort of artificial Splenda note in it for me, I'm like, let's just drink the flavored stuff. I think I actually enjoy that better than this. There's a note on the back of the pallet into the finish that is that like ashy cigarette kind of note that is just kind of covered up in this, this like Splenda sweet and low, you know, stevia type note for me. And it it hangs on and it it makes it a little too sickly sweet for me. Once again, I'm going to give it a 5.5 on the finish here. And that takes my balance score, I guess to just a six. Like I'm dealing with a 6A5 and A5 and 1/2. So I think I got to come out to a six on the balance here, Brad. I'll come out to A7.

58:28 I like, I think that they they hit everything they want. It falls off a little bit with the the ashiness at the end, even though I kind of like that it's a 7 out of 10 on balance value wise. This is going to set you back. Right now it's on sale for like 2499. It is a $28.00 bottle of whiskey in the state of Ohio. No, no, I mean I had to buy a bottle of Canadian Club 12 year for us to drink at some point this season. I can't remember what movie it's paired up with and just looking at that bottle and how much darker that whiskey is because it's 12 years old and I remember how good that was for about the same price as this, about $25.00, right?

59:13 This is like $10 too expensive. This is a $15 bottle of whiskey if ever I've seen one. And at $25 I I'm shocked at how negative I am about this whiskey. But like this is a this is a 4.5 out of 10 on value. Yeah, I, I, I I'm with you, Bob. I don't think it's a great value. It's a 5 out of 10 on value for me. For $28.00 you should be getting a lot more than this. If this was like 18 to 21 dollars, it's it's a 7-8 out of town value. Like it's a good cheap whiskey. At $28.00 I'm expecting a little bit more honestly. For $0.99 that's it.

59:55 That's actually a decent price for a pour of this. So if you want a pour of Crown, don't go to the bar. Don't buy a whole bottle. Go buy yourself a $0.99 little plastic bottle of Crown Royal just to try it out, just to see what it's like neat. You're coming out to what on this, Brad? A 31.5. I'm at a 27.5. So we're coming out to an average of a 29 1/2 or a 59 out of 100 on this, falling well short of our 30 out of, I'm sorry, 35 out of 50 average that's needed to give this a, a recommendation.

1:00:35 I'm not going to recommend. And I remember kind of liking this back in Season 1. We will call it signs of growth and not signs of snobbery, but not this one's not doing it for me, Brad. Yeah, I mean, honestly, like I walked away from this thinking like, oh, that was like kind of a pleasant experience. It's generically sweet and has a tiny bit of complexity. It's it's OK, but it's crown, man. I I'm kind of with you. If you want to get Crown, go buy some Peach or apple. All right, man, on that note, what do you say we get back into talking about American Beauty? Let's get to it. All right, that was Crown Royal, a Canadian whiskey to pair up with American beauty Brad. Not our finest pairing, but you know what? What do we know?

1:01:26 For a movie called American Beauty, we probably should have had an American whiskey. But. I I think I was being a wise ass in season 1 and I did that on purpose. 100% also me. You know the no never, you know the old like that certainly was a movie and it had a score. Crown Royal. Certainly a whiskey that was made from grains. And it comes in a purple velvet bag, Brad. I'm I'm a big fan of the purple velvet bag Bob. Nothing says classy like purple velvet. All right guys. On that note Brad, it is time for us to get into our game for the week which we call 2 facts and a falsehood.

1:02:10 Brad is going to try to stump your ball. To. Our right and what is wrong? 2 facts and a falsehood. 2 Facts and a Falsehood is the part of the show where Brad presents me with three items as facts about the making of this movie, one of which is a complete lie. Brad, I have had a very up and down season with two facts and a falsehood, including being let down by some guests. So Noah, you're on the thinnest of ice, man. Just you, you, you better be helping me out here today. I am one and two. I've been keeping score for myself so this is big because I can get back to 500, but this one, this. Is this is your chance baby?

1:02:50 Yeah, this is not the guy I want trying to help me get out of a hole here. Brad, hit me with your two facts and a falsehood. All right, guys, fact number one that the film's iconic red roses were actually silk props for most of the shoot because the fresh roses would often wilt too quickly under the lights and ruin continuity. Fact #2 Director Sam Mendez's designed there. Director Sam Mendez designed the 2 girls look to change over the course of the film, with Thora Birch gradually using less makeup and MENA Suvari gradually using more to emphasize the view of their shifting perceptions of themselves.

1:03:34 Fact #3 When Lester throws the asparagus, he was supposed to throw it at the floor. The redactions of Annette Bening and Thora Birch are genuine. Mendez kept the take because the startled expressions perfectly captured the tension of the scene. The only thing that makes #3 sound kind of fishy to me and I didn't notice it until this time around because I got a a pristine HD transfer on my Amazon prime rental, is that when he throws that asparagus at the wall the the lemon slice sticks to the wall. And I'm like that was on purpose. So they they paid some prop master to put a fake like gummy lemon on the wall. I hey, listen, if that was Providence sticking that lemon to the wall, then I'm wrong.

1:04:24 But that just seems a little too pat and on the. Nose well, and and I I got to be honest, I've I've I've not listened to every episode but the the the Rose one. If Brad made that up, that is incredibly creative. Is he capable of coming up with something that creative? That is for you to. Determine I was just going to tell you not to stroke his ego as well. And then you give him the backhand of like, is he even capable of that? It's like, oh, you corrected yourself. I don't need to. We'll find out in a minute if that was a compliment or an insult. I'm not sure. But I that I mean the the Rose thing, it would make sense to me that they wouldn't use real roses.

1:05:08 But I don't know about the lights that looks that was shot outdoors. Like I don't think the lights would be the problem, would they? I don't know. Yeah, there's definitely some roses in like indoor vases and stuff as well. And you know this, this scene where the roses are falling from the ceiling, those could definitely be props. At one point, I mean CGI roses too. That's what that's what I was going to say. They looked like CGIIII think I'm with you. I think I want to go with the the asparagus. Also, someone could have gotten hurt, like if that was really improvised. Like, you know, you don't know where those shards are going to go. That's pretty dangerous stuff. Although this is a movie in which she tries to have sex with a 16 year old, so sure.

1:05:53 But that's in the movies. Living on the. Edge. That's not you know. So wait, you sound really skeptical about the roses, but you're not choosing that as a falsehood. No, I think it, I think it's real. I think that I think that is real one because I think that's I don't. And as you know, sincerely, no offense, Brad, but that's too that is too wacky. If there is ever ever a phrase to guarantee that the person is meaning offense. I mean, does Brad even know about? Does Brad know about Silk Bob Like I would who? I wouldn't even think of silk. Where would that come from? I, I'm gonna be honest with you, man, I've insulted Brad a lot over the course of this podcast and I, I'm offended on his behalf, right?

1:06:42 That's how insulting you're being to my Co host right now. I here's what I'm going to do for you, Brad. I'm going to choose #3 as the falsehood with a slight hope that it is number 1, so that you can vindicate yourself against these attacks, Brad. Oh, Bob, I appreciate you doing that because Noah number #1 was the falsehood. Well, well done, Sir. I stand deeply and profoundly corrected. It is no problem man. I this has. Been How do you even know about silk? I mean, I know he knows about the. Existence of silk.

1:07:22 It's a completely new textile to him. It's so soft guys. I have not had this much fun with a 2 Facts and a falsehood since Zach a few weeks ago told us that he was just casually reading Stephen Foster's songbook. All right, well, I think the key here to a fun 2 facts and a falsehood is to insult Brad. But the key to a loss for me is bringing guests on because I have been steered wildly wrong. OK, I am taking Els left and right on this movie. Guys. I do want to get back into talking about this movie a little bit because you know, Noah has already said not a huge fan. Brad and I I think both still like this movie and I want to talk a little bit about its place now. We touched on it a bit.

1:08:16 It's the victim of a lot of Twitter poo pooping. Noah. I'm wondering, like, is it possible to watch this movie free from the baggage of all of it's bad? I mean, free from the baggage of Kevin Spacey, free from the baggage of knowing that people hate it now, and I think free from a lot of the things we impose on it as 2025 viewers. I think there's the answer to me is no. And there's two things that could have happened that would have allowed us to and neither one of them happened. 1 is that Kevin Spacey could have simply gone away. And I think if Kevin Spacey went away, like didn't make those weird ass videos every Christmas and didn't pop up every now and then talking about what an injustice is, is being, you know, thrown out of Hollywood is I'm not saying we would forgive him, but I think we would inherently soften on his performances a little bit.

1:09:18 Just not having to think about and see him talking about this stuff all the time. That didn't happen. The other thing that didn't happen is Sam Mendes didn't only make good movies because he has made some bad movies. And I think if if he went on to just make like good to great movies, like if you had a better track record over the last 25 years, I think we might be more inclined to look back at this and say, OK, you know what, I'm going to look on the bright side. There's more to like. And I don't mean you guys, I know you guys still like this movie, but just in general, the film Twitter, the film world I think would would be softer on this movie because I don't think people are really, they're not really into Sam Mendes.

1:10:02 There's not a lot of Mendez heads out there. I mean, I think we all agree he's made some good movies. He's also made some pretty bad movies. And I think there'd be a bit of a critical reappraisal if he were more revered or respected as a film maker today. And he really just kind of isn't. And I we've already kind of talked about the third thing, if this doesn't win Academy Award for Best Picture, like you could, you could win some acting awards, cinematography, all that. But if it doesn't win Best picture, I think people come back to this and go like, Oh yeah, this is pretty solid in those niche areas. It it's a perfect storm to have its reputation overturned over these years because it won Best Picture and people don't like it. It beat out all these other incredible movies that we do love from that era, and the star of it is a known predator. In a movie, like in a character where he is a predator like that is really hard to let go of all that stuff. 100%. You don't.

1:11:04 You don't want Stacey to put a time to type Noah. Right. I could not have asked you to to team me up better for a conversation on Sam Mendes. When Brad, we we kind of interrogated all this in our Skyfall episode. But people do not like Sam Mendes. And when I say people, I mean film Twitter because they have nothing better to do than complain. But it it always does. It makes me wonder sometimes about like, I don't think we've fully gotten over auteur theory because we see a film maker like Sam Mendes, who admittedly has made some bad movies that did not work. And because Sam Mendes doesn't seem to have like a singular theme or vision that he tries to tackle, he's just a guy who is technically proficient and makes beautiful looking movies that sometimes work and sometimes don't. I think he gets seen as a hack.

1:11:59 And and I wouldn't be like very clear here. I don't think he's a hack. I think he makes good movies. But it it seems like everyone is held to the standard of like, if you're not Scorsese constantly making movies about religion and the rot at, you know, the corrupt heart of America and you can't be that clear in every movie that you make, then you're not seen as a real filmmaker. And I do think that that Mendez deserves a little bit more credit. This is his first movie. Like, this is his debut movie. He wins best director and best picture. And no matter what you think of whether those were deserved, like I, I do think he should be taken a little more seriously as a force in Hollywood, you know, even if he squandered that in in the years after it. I mean, the way you were talking about him reminds me of how we talk about Rob Reiner, that like he, he doesn't have this direct, this vision of, you know, who he wants to be as a director. He just takes on a lot of different genres and different films and is a really proficient, adept director. And he he works well with actors and he's good behind the camera. And like, that's all we expect from him. I think that the Academy Award and all this set us up to think of Sam as a possible next right?

1:13:24 Like it's, it's the LeBron syndrome for the last 15 years of like, well, Zion Williamson is the next LeBron and Ben, Ben Simmons is the next LeBron. And I like I've heard of 5-6 next Lebrons and none of them have become the next LeBron. I I feel like you kind of have a little bit of that here with Sam Mendes where it's like, yeah, is he Ben Simmons bad? No, but is he LeBron good? Like, no, he's not that good. Also no. Yeah, well, and it's like if one of those guys won an MVP and an NBA championship in their rookie year, you know, like, yeah, those expectations would just be totally unreasonable. And and that's, that's definitely what we have here. There was almost a sense of like, OK, you did this. Now you have to show that it was merited. Like, how can how does that work? You can't show that it was merited with other films, like you won for that film at that time. So I I think it's totally unfair and totally unreasonable. But we do have to.

1:14:25 And you've mentioned it, but I feel like it bears repeating. He's made some bad movies like that is part of the reason he is disliked, because he has made some bad movies and he's squandered some opportunities. He made Skyfall, which was phenomenal, and then he made Spectre, which was not. And it's, and I think people, yeah, people don't like him. I think they're all so confused. I think people don't know where to put him. And when film Twitter gets confused about something, they normally get angry about it. They don't. They don't know how to deal with their confusion. This is true. I mean, if you take you take his top three movies, though, I think, yes, the batting average argument is not in his favor, right? But if you take his top three movies, whatever #3 might be to you like, you know, Skyfall 1917 and American Beauty or Road to Perdition.

1:15:17 And if I told you, like you could have a career directing movies where your three best movies are Skyfall 1917 and American Beauty, you'd be like, sign me up for that all day. Those are those are. We've done all three of those movies on the podcast. I mean, let's be real, if you have three like produced by a major production studio movies, you're set for life. So I'll I'll take any 3 movies like. Can you imagine? Do you? Do you remember that for 19/17 that was the Parasite year? Like Can you imagine if somehow that he had beaten Parasite that year too? Like how much everybody would hate him even more than they do now? And it almost happened. Like he was favored to win Best director and 1917 was favored to win best picture, like pretty close to the end.

1:16:02 So he should be very happy that he did not win those Oscars. Another banger year 2019 as well. Incredible marriage story. I mean, just a just a freaking great the. Correlation that I'm seeing is Sam Mendes. Clearly he. Is what makes those years. If he makes a movie, it's going to be a great year. Guys, I think this is a perfect time to get into our final segment of the day, which we call let's make it a double. We're near the end of the episodes of Things, listening to the film and Whiskey Show. Let's pair another film with this one, even if it's struggle. It's the final segment of the day. Now let's make it a double. Let's Make It a Double is the part of the show where we pick a movie to pair up with this one to make the perfect double feature.

1:16:45 Guys, I'm going to go ahead and get mine out of the way first. We we talked about Sam Mendez a lot. And Brad, you made a comparison to Rob Reiner. I actually think I see a little bit more vitriol directed towards Sam Mendes. And I think Noah, you're right. It's it's part of the confusion. But the closest corollary to to him that I can think of is the filmmaker Jason Reitman, who is a Neppo baby, to say the least, and really announced himself on the scene in independent cinema with this movie. Thank You for Smoking. And then follows that up with Juno, gets nominated for best picture for Juno, maybe best director as well. Then he does up in the air another best picture nominee. He gets nominated for best director. He does a young adult, a movie that I really like, and then immediately is like, let's make bad Movies Now. And that's all he does forever.

1:17:38 And now he's making Ghostbusters sequels. And so like, he made a movie in I think 2013 that is probably his most reviled movie and a movie that I liked significantly more than most people. And it was called Men, Women and Children. And that was a movie very much like American Beauty. It was a movie about these Criss crossing lives in American suburbia and kids who are addicted to pornography and, you know, grown-ups who are fighting and maybe divorcing each other. And it's all phrased with this omniscient narrator who I think is Emma Thompson is narrating that movie. And it's there. She's like quoting Carl Sagan talking about the the tiny blue dot and how we all inhabit this. Or it's it's very similar to American Beauty in it's kind of pomp and circumstance and what it's trying to do on a cosmic level and watch that movie, which I don't hate, and then tell me that American Beauty is bad. And I think that every argument you have against this movie and Sam Mendes, it's like, no, no, there's this movie that you can put all of that on to.

1:18:44 So for my scapegoat slash double feature, I'm going with this. And men, women and children. Oh man, just to be clear, I don't despise this film. I. Didn't think it was that bad. What a glowing recommendation. I'm going to pair this with the movie I absolutely love, and it's a movie that I think has somewhat similar of a premise, but it just moves in so much more hopeful of the direction. And I'm a very hopeful person. I like when a person is faced with their own death, them choosing the greater good choosing. A beautiful life.

1:19:27 You have picked this movie like 7 Times Now. Breath. Because more people need to see this freaking movie. Bob Akiru is one of the greatest films ever made and everybody needs to watch it. And I feel like it has such a more impactful look on how humans actually thrive, that American Beauty and I, I like American Beauty. I think, Bob, what you said about everybody playing a character until the masks are shattered at the end of the film and they're all like, well, crap, Like what are we going to do now? I, I think there's something very important in that messaging. I just like Akiru way more.

1:20:10 And what it is trying to tell you about the human experience. There you go. I love Akiru a lot and I love the English language remake that came out a couple years ago. Live in like. I thought that was almost as good, which is an. Incredible. That's because Bill Nighy is a freaking treasure. I. Totally. So good. I love everything he does and that is his best performance to me. I, I think he's really amazing in that movie. I, I am go. I so I'm just thinking suburbs movies, you know, and there've been a lot. I, I, I love the idea that you had of pairing it with like a, a Rock Hudson movie. I think that would be really, really cool. But I am going to go with A Nightmare on Elm Street. I think this is another movie about teenagers in peril in the suburbs in a very different way.

1:21:06 And I think that movie really kicked off like a whole modern era of suburbs movies like it was before the John Hughes movies started happening. And I think I honestly think like the themes of Nightmare on Elm Street are present in a lot of these movies. You know, a lot of the John Hughes movies, The Burbs is a movie that I love that I think goes a lot to Nightmare on Elm Street. I wouldn't make an interesting pairing with this. But just like you don't like what the hell is happening on this street, like that's a movie that I, I, that's a, that's a genre that I like. And I think This American Beauty falls into that genre too. And I actually think there are little hints of horror throughout the film. So I think I think those might be brought out a little more if you paired it with a true horror movie like Nightmare on Elm Street. It's a movie about a a teenage girl who gets caught in a creepy old man's dreams.

1:21:56 Like it's the same movie, you know? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I was about to say, are you calling Kevin Spacey Freddy Krueger? It's it's a they're neck and neck biggest villains. Oh, man. All right, so Brad, I guess I I didn't have a chance to pair this movie up with either ET or Elizabethtown today, so I had to go with men, women and children. I do think if you want to go the Sam Mendes route, he makes a movie in 2008 called Revolutionary Rd. which is based on, no exaggeration, my favorite book I've ever read. It is the pros in that book is just it is so biting and so cynical and Mendez does not catch lightning in a bottle a second time with that movie.

1:22:43 And I think part of the reason why is it just doesn't have the edge of this movie. And and I'm I'm kind of tipping into final scores here, Brad. I've come down a bit on this movie. Like I don't think it's a perfect movie. I do think some things have gotten lost in the last 25 years. And, and part of that is like, I was wondering at some point how creepy is Ricky in 2025 versus 1999 when he was only medium creepy. And now he's like exponentially creepier. And part of the reason for that is like he's filming people. And it's a very obvious metaphor of like the camera being the only impartial, objective observer of what's going on in the world, where everybody else is biased and and viewing it through the lens of their own bullshit. But now if you show somebody filming somebody, when we take videos in 2025, we take videos with the intention of that becoming for public consumption.

1:23:46 Whereas in this movie, like he's only documenting it for himself to show the beauty in the world to himself. And I, I think that like overcoming that thing in his character where like, people don't understand I filmed something for myself anymore. It's like I filmed this to put it on the Internet and he's filming girls getting naked and dads pumping iron naked and everything else. Like, so I think that there's just some things. And that led to the question I asked Noah before, like, can you even view this movie apart from all of its baggage today? I don't think you can. And I don't think the movie is bulletproof enough to overcome all those things. I still think it's a really good movie, but I'm going to come down to an 8 1/2 on this movie. Brad from where I was in Season 1. Yeah, I I did find myself throughout this viewing wondering like, what does a world where everybody can take videos all the time due to the character of Ricky, because he's not interested.

1:24:45 I don't like, honestly, he's not weird anymore. Because if you make this movie set in 2025, he's just another human being, but there's nothing unique about him taking a camera to school. So I I think that alone makes his character very fascinating in 2025. I'm, I'm with you, Bob. I think this is a really beautiful movie. It has a lot of great cinematography that we didn't talk about, but the the camera work I think is really good. I like the acting. I like the ultimate message of the movie. I think it's really well done overall. I'm at an 8 1/2 as well. You know, I wonder if in 2025, Ricky's thing would be that he like doesn't have a camera.

1:25:33 Like if he doesn't have a people would be like, Oh my God, believe that guy doesn't have a phone. He's. He just walks around with a journal of writing down what we say. What a weirdo. I just pictured him walking around with like an old like 1860s Civil War era camera where he has to like take the cap off. He's like, everybody holds still. I I need to? Capture hold still for 5 minutes. He gets under like a curtain to look through the viewfinder. It is interesting though, because I think you could make it wouldn't be as, as interesting visually, but like you could make that argument that he actually does see things more clearly because he's not using a phone because he's not posting stuff on Instagram. So that would be an interesting way to do it if they were doing it in 2020 for the inevitable American Beauty remake that we all know is coming because this movie is so beloved. I, I'm going to put this at a 5 out of 10. I, I don't think it's terrible.

1:26:29 You thought it would be higher? No, I thought, I thought I'd been underselling. I, I, I don't think it's terrible. I just don't think it's very good. I think it has a lot of problems. I I actually think, and I never say this about movies because I don't watch TV, but I think it would be better as ATV series like Alan Ball made Six Feet under right after this. This was his next project. And this a lot of the problems I have with this is, is that there is too much into it, too much in it. It's too condensed. It has to rely on some, you know, sitcomy conventions and some, you know, some moments from Kevin Spacey that are, are meant to sort of bring the audience along instead of delving deeper into his character. And I think if you had eight episodes to tell this story, I think it would be better.

1:27:22 And I think I, we could understand these characters more. And it wouldn't feel to me like it's trying to juggle tones that it really can't quite, you know, keep all the balls in the air. I think they would be able to expand both the comedy and expand the drama. And I, I think I think it would work better. So that that would be my tip. If I could go back 25 years, I'd say, guys, we're right on the cusp of the golden age of prestige TV. So just wait a year and then and then give Alan Ball a big a big check, HBO. It's like, hey guys, here's my pitch. You could make this movie as is and win Best Picture and Best Director and Best Actor or. Or you.

1:28:03 Could. Or you could wait five years. Make an HBO show and have nobody notice because they're all gushing about The Sopranos. Exactly. You drive a hard bargain, Sir. All right, so that does it for us today. We're coming out to an 8.5 on average for me and Brad. And Noah's score doesn't count because he's the guest. So thanks so much for joining us today, Noah. Now you did mention that you were no longer doing film criticism as of right now, so fill us in a little bit on what you are working on and where we can find you. Oh sure, So I have pivoted. I'm making music now. I, I, it's something I did in my 20s. I put out an album in my 20s and then I kind of moved away from it and now I've moved back to it. So I've put out two albums this year and I have a third that'll be out maybe by the time this this comes up. It's singer-songwriter stuff.

1:28:54 It's very pleasant. I think the songs are not bad and you can find me on Band Camp and Spotify and other places that I don't I don't frequent but I'm told the music is on there as well. Man, just a a real whore for self promotion aren't you? I think the songs are not bad quote UN quote. Noah can tell. I think that. That you know what I honestly, I, I will say this, we hung out like a year ago, you came to visit Cleveland for a while and we went and had a couple drinks and you were like, I'm going to go to an open mic. And I was like, you know what, bud? You do what you need to do, right? I was like, I, I don't know if I'm going to come listen to you at an open mic. And then you started posting clips of you and your songs that you've written.

1:29:39 First of all, you have a beautiful voice. Like you, like, are a legitimately good singer and songwriter. And I find that your music is like unironically, unabashedly very, very good and worth checking out. So if he won't, if he'll be too humble to say it, I'll say it for him. Check out Noah's music guys. Well, I set you up perfectly. My plan came to fruition here. Thank you so very much. That really does mean a lot. And I know you mean it because we were talking off off air and you said you want to come to an open mic soon and hear me play. So we'll do that and maybe we'll live stream it for your audience. Based on how 2 Facts and a falsehood of blend.

1:30:19 I have so many thoughts on your musical capabilities, but I'm just, you know, I'm going to keep them to myself here. Do you even know what a melody? Is just know that if he writes a song about Silk now, Brad, that it was inspired by you. That's that's all we know. All right, guys, that does it for us here on Film and Whiskey today. We'll be back next week talking about a movie that we probably should have a moderator for. It's 1977's Star Wars Episode 4, A New Hope. Brad's one of Brad's favorite movies of all time. So join us as we debate that one again next week. But until then, I'm Bob Book. I'm Brad Gee. And we'll see you next time.