(500) Days of Summer (2009) / Pursuit United Triple Mash Rye

0:00 In 2009, director Mark Webb and starred Joseph Gordon Levitt gave the world a roller coaster ride of a romantic comedy that proves once and for all autumn is better than summer. In 2025, we try a whiskey that is a hardcore contender for whiskey of the year. The film is 500 days of summer. The whiskey is Pursuit United Triple Mash Rye. And we'll review them both. This is the Film and Whiskey podcast. Welcome to the Film and Whiskey podcast, where each week we review a classic movie and a glass of whiskey. I'm Bob Book.

0:58 I'm Brad Gee. Wow, you just, you just had to do it, man. Now that we're on video, I can see your sass coming through I the other side here. Bob I used to do that every single time, at every single time when we were audio only. It just, it just became a habit and I, I stopped out of respect for you, but just, you know, it scratches an itch. I guess. I guess it does, man. You know what else scratches an itch? Brad, returning to all these movies from season #1 folks, welcome into Film and Whiskey. If it is your first time joining us, what we do on this podcast, perhaps unsurprisingly, as we talk about movies and we talk about whiskey and this season, which is season #10 for us here on Film and Whiskey, it's a bit of a commemorative season because we're throwing back to season #1 we're revisiting every movie that we reviewed that season because Brad, a little, a little inside baseball here. The audio on those episodes is no bueno. It's real bad.

2:00 And we did not really know what we were doing back then. So, you know, we're, we're, we're just knocking off like all the bases here, Brad. We're boosting our SEO. We're getting more clicks, we're getting more viewers and we're putting out better quality episodes on all these very deserving Movies Now. Dude, it's wild. The original list of movies we just randomized off of a big list that you had. We landed on 32 incredible movies. Every now and then I, I think back on that first season and, and I was holding some movies for later seasons. Like I'd set Citizen Kane aside. I was like, I'm hoping that if nothing else, I can keep this podcast going long enough for us to get to Citizen Kane.

2:43 But it was that thing of like, you know, when, when they're making a new TV show and the end of Season 1 is always functional as both a season finale and a series finale, just in case it doesn't get renewed. You know, it was like, I want to cram enough good ones into Season 1 just in case Brad hates this after the first batch of movies. Yeah. Would you have just gone on doing the podcast by yourself? If I was just like, no, I'm out. No, even now I've been talking by myself for, you know, 2 1/2 minutes and I'm like, this is terrible audio 'cause I, I'm only working one conversation partner into it. And Brad, the great thing about revisiting these movies from Season 1 is that back then we did not have guests on the show, at least not guests that weren't our friends that came with you from Columbus to record with us. So we have bona fide, legitimate movie critics now that come and join us.

3:37 And one of them is our friend Daniel Dwyo, who's joining us tonight from what looks like his living room. Daniel, how are you tonight, man? I'm good. How are you guys? Doing well. It's good to have you back. It's been a minute, as they say. Daniel usually joins us each year around Oscar season as the official designated film and whiskey Oscars correspondence. I guess we should kind of kick things off tonight, Brad, because there's big Oscar news. Big Oscar today. Yeah. What's? What's your guy's response? Because Bob is very angry about it and I didn't text you this earlier. Bob, this actually means I might watch the Oscars there. You go, Brad, a notorious cord cutter is referring to the fact that the Oscars have just announced that beginning and I believe 2029, they will be exclusively streaming the Oscars on YouTube, live streaming and and to my knowledge, it will not be simulcast anywhere on broadcast television. You have to watch it on YouTube.

4:40 Now, in theory, they're reaching many more potential viewers. In. Practice. I don't know how I feel about this. I'd love to get Daniel's quick thoughts on this before we dive into today's movie. It's complicated. I I hate. I hate. Wait, the the movie or the Oscars news? The Oscars I, I hate YouTube because of all the, you know, white supremacists they've elevated. But as an Oscar fan, I think this is great for the Oscars. I feel like virtually everything most Oscar fans dislike about the Oscars over the last decade can be pretty easily willed down to ABC makes it this way. Yeah.

5:28 They finally untethered themselves from, you know, it. It's not just that they're not on ABC anymore, It's that they're not on network television anymore, which opens up this sort of grand idea of, you know, reshaping the show entirely. Can it be longer? Can they add categories? Can it everything all of a sudden is on the table for change in a way that it never could have been before? Well, that's true. And I I didn't think about it that way. Brad, you say that you may be more likely to watch the Oscars now, which means you've gone from about a 0% chance to about maybe a 12% chance of watching the Oscars. I mean, it's one of those things where ABC out of all the networks is the hardest to stream.

6:15 Like it's it's tied in with ESPN and and Disney and it's just an absolute pain in the butt to stream. And I don't have access to local TV. So I as much as I would want to watch it as a, you know, relatively avid movie go, you know, type of person, there's just there's no reason for me to do it, man. I got kids, I'm busy. It takes up a lot of time. I have to go do either. Of you guys have. Childhood memories watching the Oscars. Like, I grew up in the Billy Crystal era of hosting. I remember Return of the King winning 87 Oscars. Yeah, I remember that pretty distinctly. Other than that was like the last real sweep that the Oscars have had, you know, 22 years ago like this, that the sweeps have basically stopped happening since then.

7:03 Yeah, we were a big Good Morning America family when we were like eating cereal in the morning. That show would be on. And because that's an ABC show I remember seeing, you know, like the Cuba Gooding junior speech the following morning or whatever. The first ones I remember really getting into were probably the 2005 awards for 2004 movies, 'cause I I remember seeing $1,000,000 Baby and really rooting for it in the late going there. And then of course Crash the year after that was was big and controversial. And so those being my first two Oscars I took seriously, kind of solidified it for me as something I was going to watch every year. Yeah, my first Oscars was the Silence of the Lambs year, just because I loved the movie City Slickers as a kid.

7:47 And one day my mom just like walked in my room on a Sunday night and said, hey, do you want to watch Curly win an Oscar? I was like, well, I don't know what that means, but sure. And you know, ever since then, Jack Palace started doing one on push ups on the stage and Billy Crystal was, you know, I was thinking I I was hooked since then. You're you're hooked after that. Yeah, I was going to say one reason to boycott watching the Oscars is that our movie for the day received 0 nominations at its respective Academy Awards. And we are talking a little. Wild. Yes, because we're talking about a really good movie, 500 Days of Summer. You can tell this is season 10 because your Segways are a plus. Listen, I have been practicing for a little while now, Daniel. The movie did receive 2 Golden Globe nominations, including a Best Picture, Musical or Comedy nomination. So we're going to dive into talking about 500 Days of Summer.

8:37 Brad, we've obviously seen this movie before. Before we get into our first segment of the day, I do want to ask you, Brad, have you watched 500 Days of Summer at all in the interim between Season 1 and Season 10? I have not, and not due to a lack of enjoyment. I I like this movie a lot, just never got background to it. Daniel, you specifically chose this movie as your film to join us for this season, and I'm hoping it's not because you want to like, come on here and trash the movie or anything. You you seem to have a pretty good track record of picking movies that you like, So what made this one stand out among the list for you? Well, I saw this one in theaters in 2009, and it's a movie that I watched it probably five times.

9:25 You know that within the year it came out, it felt like it had a lot of parallels to my life at the time in my mid 20s. And even re watching it 2 days ago for this podcast. It just like it's like, you know how people say smell is a sense memory and it and it and it, you know, you smell something and you remember your childhood. Like I felt like I watched this and immediately remembered the emotions of my 20s. Yeah. Yeah, dude, I'm I'm with you, man. I there is a relationship that was very serious when I was in college that like doesn't mimic this story at all, but like the vibes of this movie and the vibes of their relationship very deeply match the vibes of my relationship. And I got done watch this movie and you're like, you just feel like you're, I don't know, in the midst of that. Again, it's it is very evocative. Yep, yeah.

10:25 Well, and at the same time, I think one of the interesting things about experiencing this movie at different intervals of my life now is that the last time we watched it, Brad, you know, we started to kind of change our opinion of Tom, the main character a little bit and to kind of view him through the lens of his immaturity. And this time around, I'm not going to spoil too much before we dive deep here, but like, I can't tell if me outgrowing my ability to relate to Tom has also meant that I've kind of outgrown this movie. And and I I really struggled watching it this time with like, I think Tom's an idiot and I think he borderline sometimes on just being completely unlikable and unrouteforable as a character. But do I dislike the movie itself? And I think that that's kind of the central question that I'm going through today.

11:17 But before we get into Bob Therapy Hour, it's time for us to throw over to our first segment of the day, which we call, Brad explains. Brad's going to give us the movie plots with only 60 seconds taken on the clock, so let's go ahead and do your take with this little segment that we call, Brad explains. Brad Explains is the part of the show where Brad breaks down the plot of the movie that he has just seen, at least for the second time. Now, we've established that Brad has not watched this movie again in the interim. And I zoned out while you were talking earlier, Brad, so you have to remind me. I don't know if you mentioned it or not. Did you see it prior to season 1 or was that a first time watch for you? This will be my third time I saw it once. After the end of the aforementioned relationship, our mutual friend James told me we need to sit down and watch this movie.

12:12 And I he he was right. So me and him and a few others sat down and watched 500 Days of Summer. And it's a very cathartic movie when you're angry at a girl. Not that I had any right to be angry at a girl, but angry that at the end of a relationship I guess is what I should say. So to clarify, so I know is Bob always choosing all the movies and Brad is sort of Bob's, you know, canvas for how to you're the muse. He, I, I paint him like one of my French girls, I think is what we're referring to here. Yeah. No. So the conceit of the podcast in the early days was like, Brad and I were both living in Kentucky and getting into whiskey for the first time. And in the course of our friendship, I was like, you should watch this movie.

12:55 You should watch this movie. And we finally said, screw it, I'm gonna put together this big list of movies I think Brad should watch and we'll go through them one by one and also try whiskey for the first time. So it was all about basically Brad discovering new things each week that I was forcing upon him. It's a great, great concept for. Sure, over over 300 Movies Now. I mean, that's how a lot of great artists created. Here are two things I love. Can they be combined? Yeah, exactly. Turns out drinking lots of whiskey and arguing about movies go hand in hand. I was gonna say, often times one of the two things being combined is alcohol. So, yeah, yeah. All right, Brad, on that note, A. Beer as we speak.

13:36 I was going to say, I'm already, I'm already sipping as well. So Brad, you get 60 seconds on the clock to break down the plot of this movie with full spoilers. Now, folks, this is a movie that jumps around quite a bit in its timeline, so it probably sounds very simplistic when it's laid out in a linear, chronological fashion, which I imagine Brad's gonna try to do here. But Brad, you could do whatever you want with your minute. I would highly recommend if you have not seen 500 Days of Summer, go watch this 95 minute movie, dude. And then first of all, in in praise of the 90 minute movie The. 90 minute film. What a we We should write an ode Ode to the 90 minute film.

14:17 The 90 minute film is like the haiku of movies. It's just just perfect, perfectly economical. You know, it's the worst thing about haikus. Whenever somebody like reads 1, I don't even listen to the haiku. I'm just like parsing out the syllables to make sure every single time. You know what? It's great though man all. Right. 60 seconds pulling one over on you. That's not a haiku, Yeah. Yeah, that was only 6 syllables. On that note, Brad, 60 seconds on the clock and. Go. We should. We should. Stop doing, Brad explains, and just do Brad's haikus and. All Brad's haikus. You're. Describing the haikus.

14:59 I'm not going to do that live. What I will do is talk about 500 Days of Summer, which is a film that follows Tom, our heroic, awesome go get him kind of guy, and Summer, his sometimes girlfriend, sometimes person of interest in his desired murder. There is all sorts of stuff happening in this movie, but it primarily follows Tom as he seeks to win Summer over and get her to fall in love with him. It jumps back and forth across various days in their relationship, of which there are 500 and I I don't have anything else.

15:40 Bob the it's a relationship and and I'll I'll finish with this. I think I will nominate this for the most millennial movie of all time. I'm glad you ended it with that, Brad, because I think that is a perfect jumping off point. We need to interrogate this. Is this the most millennial movie ever made? And we at least need to lay some nominees out on the table. Yeah. And maybe establish what we mean by this. So Brad, I want to hear your thoughts as you're watching this movie. You texted me. Is this the most millennial thing ever? And. And the more I thought about it, the more I'm like, it might be. What stood out to you about this one? The movement of Tom between like complete hope and yet complete and utter dejection at his own ability to win. This girl just feels like the core of the millennial man, forever unsure of himself, doubting that he can have an impact on the world around him, and yet full of these big bright hopes and dreams and desires.

16:51 It just, it feels like that captures the heart of like masculinity. If you were born between 1985 and 2000, whatever the millennial years are. And then you have Summer on the other end, who is like the perfect millennial girl. She's playful and fun, but she's like independent and focused and, and doesn't need no man. And she is, you know, just doing her thing and yet she can use a man as much as she wants to use a man and then move on. And it's it's just this like that, like that alone does it. But then on top of that, you have the music of the movie, which is like the most indie millennial soundtrack ever created. I don't know, Bob, you, you take it from here because there there's more to this, but I, I'm curious what stuck out to you as highly millennial?

17:48 Well, Daniel's chugging his beer, so I'm wondering he he seems like he's gearing up for something too. I'm going to let me lay out my case on the table here because I think that the more I thought about it, the more I think it might not be the most millennial movie, but it might be the sort of quintessential young millennial movie. Because I do feel like there's a pretty firm divide between millennials that were born in the early to mid 80s and the ones that were born in the early to mid 90s. And so like something that like a Fight Club, Fight Club feels like a very Gen. X movie to me, even though it came out like at at peak young millennial formative time. So I'm, I'm thinking after that when I think millennial movie, I'm thinking like early to mid 2000s Eternal Sunshine is going to be like one of the crown jewels.

18:34 That's that's up there. And I think this movie we could, we could talk about is very derivative of Eternal Sunshine anyway. So like you've already got that working against it. And yet, I mean, are millennials by their very nature unoriginal, derivative people? Maybe, maybe this is the most millennial thing. I do think that like, you look at the fashion of the late 2000s with the tousled hair and the cardigan sweaters and the like. I don't care about how I look, but everything I'm wearing is extremely skinny. So it's like this the sort of like feminization of men's fashion kind of hits its peak here in 2009. I think that you've got the the childishness of Tom is really like emblematic of young millennial men. I think that the sort of the way that he imagines Summer as this manic Pixie dream girl is very reminiscent of the things you get in millennial movies.

19:34 And then like the music cues, like the music in this movie is the most I am calling attention to my own musical taste, millennial soundtrack, because it's like, it's not actually indie music. It's music by artists that were signed to major labels. But we're like the indie artist of Columbia Records. It's like Regina Spektor and The Smiths and but you know what I mean? So it's it's very recognizable. Like mopey guy music, which is very like Brad, we went to college with all those guys. And I think that Tom and Summer are just like perfect examples of that. And I'm rambling now.

20:17 I want to hear Daniel's take. Where does this fall on the the pantheon of millennial movies for you, Daniel? Well, you, I mean, you said that it depends whether we're talking like millennial stretches from like early 80s to mid 90s. And so I mean, I'm 43, which is technically an elder millennial. And to me, the, the what I think it was the quintessential millennial movies are like movies that everyone I know saw like their senior year of college. So I mean, you mentioned Eternal Sunshine. That was that immediately came to mind. And the other one's probably Garden. State. Oh yeah. OK. And especially talking about, you know, soundtracks, Garden State was like everyone I knew owned that soundtrack when, you know, people still bought CDs 0500 days. The summer came out when I was 27. And I mean, I saw it in theaters with all my friends. So it's definitely a movie that I felt like was a touchstone for all of us.

21:13 But I don't, I think we were all little older at that point, for it was less likely for a movie to truly shape us at that age, right? In the way that, like, Garden State or Eternal Sunshine shaped us when we were 22. Yeah. Well, and I also think that like, there is an element to this movie that it's poking fun a little bit at those millennial archetypes, like that Tom is very similar to Joel in Eternal Sunshine and to whatever Zach Braff's name is in Garden State. And so they're they're having some fun at the expense of that type of guy while still trying to keep a foot in the fact that, like, he has to be your sympathetic character. So yeah, I just, Brad, I think that it's a good contender at the very least for most movie ever. And that kind of begs the question, now that we are, you know what, 16 years out from the release of this movie, how do you guys think this movie holds up both in terms of like its its structure and storytelling and also just the the datedness of the time period?

22:21 I mean, I, I feel like one of my struggles with going back to a movie like this is that it reminds me that I don't feel like we get interesting, fun movies like this made as often anymore, at least not ones that I'm made aware of. And I stay abreast of a lot of the movies coming out it. It's wild to me how bright and fun and funny this movie is. Like truly funny. And it it has a little bit of ironic humor, but it's not destroyed by like the Marvel type humor that I feel like almost all movies use nowadays if there's going to be humor in a movie.

23:05 And so there's so much about this movie that still feels fresh to me because it's not something I see as often. So I like, yes, the, you know, the hairstyles and the clothes feel a little bit dated, but not, not in a way that detracts from the movie at all. It almost makes me feel a little bit nostalgic. I don't know if you're allowed to say back in the day for something that was 16 years ago, but that's kind of how it feels. I think we could say back in the day for something that happened when I was in my 20s and now I'm in my 40s. Yeah, I. Was going to say Brad, like the, the, the distance between this movie coming out and now is the equivalent of like, you know, 1993. It's like Jurassic Park and Nirvana to when this movie, it's like, so if someone was reminiscing about 1993 films when we were 19 years old, we'd be like, oh gosh, like that guy, that guy is old and unhip.

23:59 And that's us now. Oh 100% dude I had a meeting with we just hired somebody new at my job and she is 23 and I I am so old is all I'm trying to say. Daniel, how about you? How does it hold up so far? God, I honestly, I still love it. Yeah, I mean, and like I said, it's the sense memory thing. Like just rewatching it, I remember every feeling I felt when I was in my 20s. Rewatching the movie. It hasn't dated at all for me. You know, part of I, I do feel like the film has less of a cultural presence than it used to. But I think the huge part of that is that the the survival of movies in the culture tends to be very dependent on whether their directors still matter.

24:56 And Marc Webb just hasn't really made any other movies that anyone cares about. Yeah. You know, a huge reason people discover movies is OK One battle after another comes out. I love it. I'm going to go watch every Paul Thomas Anderson movie. And that's how movies survive and persist in the culture. And when a director kind of goes nowhere, it's very easy for a movie to get forgotten about. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I guess we could have the Marc Webb conversation really quickly here, Brad, because Daniels kind of already summed it up for us. He'd makes this movie and I believe he was a music. Video director as well. That's where he got, yeah, he directed like 100 music videos in the 2000s, mostly for what, you know, like Good Charlotte, AFI, My Chemical Romance, Green Day, Three Doors Down, etcetera.

25:45 Bad. Just keep naming bands Let's do that at each other for the next hour. And I'll call this a great episode 'cause I could talk about 3 Doors Down all freaking day. Brad, I was going to say Marc Webb, you know, music video director, he makes this movie, it becomes kind of his big breakout. He almost immediately gets offered a big studio superhero movie from Sony, which is the the Andrew Garfield reboot of The Amazing Spider Man. And that becomes his baby. And that movie sucks. Like, let's just be honest, I think that both of those movies are among the worst superhero films of the 21st century. I just, they are awful, which is sad. He never recovers after that. Yeah.

26:27 Yeah, Andrew Garfield's great, but man, I worked. Suck. I worked at the Sundance Film for three years and there was a huge conversation at that time. I I worked there from 2015 and 2018. There's a huge conversation at the time about sort of what is the festival for? What is the goal, what is the dream? Kind of what is the best case scenario? And you know, something the way somebody put it is Sundance doesn't launch movies, it launches film makers. And something that often happened with Sundance is a movie would become sort of the talk of that Sundance and the film maker would immediately get poached to do into like a huge franchise.

27:12 And then that dictated the person, the rest of that person's career, either they made a hit franchise movie. Like, this is what happened to Ryan Coogler, you know? Yep. Fruitvale Station, then Creed, then Black Panther. And because Black Panther was, you know, a sensation, he is Ryan Coogler. And the other side of that is your Marc Webb. You make a Sundance sensation, you're immediately poached into a Spider Man movie. It goes badly. And then what are you now? Where's your career? Yeah. And this happens all the time in both directions. You know, Taika White TV is another, you know, one of the good cases where makes hunt for the Wilderpeople and then gets a Thor movie and you know, becomes a sensation. There are a lot of ways it goes badly. Yeah, I mean, you're seeing it right now in real time with Chloe Zhao trying to kind of dig herself out of the hole. So she wins the Academy Award with Nomad Land, and they're like, here's this movie called Eternals, Chloe Zhao, worst superhero movie of the last 10 years. And she's in what seems like director's jail for a second. And then Spielberg kind of bails her out with this adaptation of Hamnet that is now among the front runners for the Academy Award.

28:23 So she had to return to those kind of indie movie roots to kind of reclaim that for herself. And it's not something that we've seen Marc Webb be able to do. And I maybe because. Sorry, go ahead. Well, I think this is some of the reverence from for film makers like Ari Astor and Robert Eggers and Jordan Peele is they had that huge initial Sundance hits. I'm sure every studio and every franchise came calling and they just said no, no, like I actually, I'm going to keep doing my weird little thing over in this corner. And it has. Absolutely worked for them and you know it. It's not that doing franchises selling out. I mean, I don't think anyone thinks Ryan Coogler sold out during Black Panther. I mean, that is 100% a Ryan Coogler movie. His individual stamp is all over it. That's not what selling out is, but there does feel like there's a reward in in just not taking the money, just just continuing to do your your own little niche thing. And I wonder what the alternate version of Mark Webb's career would look like.

29:29 Because something I really thought as I was re watching this movie is, Jesus, this is really well directed. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's it's both well directed and well edited. Like the guy knows how to make a movie. And, and I think sometimes when when people say that a movie's made in the edit, they mean it as a derogatory thing that the director didn't know what he was doing. He or she was. Doing like in the way a Terrence Malick movie might be made in the edit. Like, I'm just going to shoot a bunch of stuff and then I'll figure it out later. Well, I was just thinking this the other day because people are are starting to worry about Chris Nolan's upcoming The Odyssey movie. And the one thing that I will say about Christopher Nolan that I don't think people talk about enough is that his movies are entirely dependent on the edit. And there are a lot of folks that say that his his scripts are kind of written with the edit in mind now with the intricacy of them.

30:19 But like, Christopher Nolan is not a guy that I would say has like a, the ability to film like the chariot race sequence of Ben Hur because like he doesn't think that way. Like Oppenheimer is a movie that absolutely relies on these tiny random insert shots in every single scene of that movie to give it this this funky rhythm that it has. And I think Marc Webb is kind of like that, like not on the level of a Chris Nolan, but that he's used to making music videos. He's used to rapid cuts, he's used to montage, he's used to like a 3 minute scene having the maximum amount of impact that it needs to have. And that's why the structure of this movie is a perfect project for him because you have these little vignettes and three minute long scenes that take place on day 205 and then you go to the next one.

31:06 And that's like the episodic nature of this movie is a benefit. It's it's not a bug. And I think that maybe Marc Webb just hasn't found another project that allows him to flex that specific muscle. But we certainly haven't seen it again. And and guys, if you'll let me kind of segue us into the movie itself and the structure of the movie. I did find that, like, the jumping back and forth, there were times in the movie where it was necessary and where it really worked. And that, you know, in the more comedic early going of the movie, the whiplash effect of, like, how happy Tom is to how sad Tom is to one day he's like, she's a skank and I want nothing to do with her.

31:48 And then the next day she says she loves The Smiths. And it just ends on him saying, like, holy shit. And then it cuts to the next scene. Those are great. I think there are also times in this movie where they get a little too cutesy with the flipping back and forth between days. And I'm wondering, you know, it sounds like we all really like this movie, but for me, one of the flaws of the film was the sort of over reliance on the I'm flipping between days thing at the expense sometimes of I think deepening the characters or letting the scenes play out as long as they should. And I'm, I'm wondering Brad, am I alone in that or like where, where are you falling on that? I I think you might be alone. I most movies have their traditional three act structure and by jumping around, you're like inserting, you're like pulling little moments out from each act of the movie and making this like tangled web that at the end of the day feels like how you would reminisce on a relationship.

32:51 And so I think for me, it works the continuous back and forth. And it also creates this anticipation as a viewer of like when it finally hits 500, right? It's it's like any movie where they say the title of the movie and you're like, I see what you did there. You're in the Leo meme. Right. Exactly. When you finally hit day 500, you've watched Tom go back and forth so many times and you know that it's 500 days of summer. Like I found myself this time through being like this anticipatory, like, OK, what's next? And I think that's the beauty of the ending of this movie.

33:32 It gives you that catharsis. It gives you an opportunity to say, hey, like this relationship was not what I wanted it to be. I didn't act well in it. I don't feel like she acted well in it. But at the end of the day, I have another chance. I, I can choose something better for myself moving forward. And I I love how the the memory of it all plays into that sense. And Brad, I think you nailed it when you said reminiscence. You know, I mean, we keep bringing up Eternal Sunshine, so I'll bring it up again. And the way that Eternal Sunshine is about, you know, the disappearance of memories, I feel, I feel like 500 Days of Summer is about the reappearance of memories.

34:13 I mean, I almost don't think the movie to to think the movie flips back and forth in time. I think to have that lens, you almost have to think it takes place in the present tense, whereas I think the whole thing is memory and it and it and it, it interacts the way memories do. As I remember this, you know, you remember a fight you had, and then you remember, you know, a different day nine months earlier that was like the good version of the same topic that that fight was about. Sure. Yep. And let's be let's be real, this is the most millennial movie ever because this is 100% him in a psychiatrist's office. Like remembering as much as he can, trying to process this relationship so that he can work on his marriage with Minka Kelly.

35:03 Yeah, exactly. You know, and I think that too, it's credit the way that the movie will replay certain scenes through a different lens and whether that means that they did like 5 or 6 different takes of a shot, like the, you know, the shot where he shows her the Ringo Starr album and you see her reaction. It's, it's, I think it happens three times in the movie and it's 3 different takes, you know, based on what the reality. It's a Rashomon kind of thing, right? But then there are also times where you get the like, I love Zooey Deschanel's laugh and I love her little heart-shaped birthmark. And then you get the same shots later in the movie where he's like, I hate her knobby knees. I hate her cockroach shaped splotch. I hate this song.

35:44 And I think that that it does a really good job of helping the viewer to understand that there are different perspectives even on the same event. And that leads me to what I think, guys, is my favorite needle drop of the movie. And there's a lot of really good usages of music in this movie. But when they pull in the Simon and Garfunkel bookends at the end of the movie as he's finally starting to reminisce over all the things that were actually clear signs that this relationship was deteriorating, it is. It's really mournful and it's really sad. Then I feel like it gives the character of Tom not just the break he needs to move on with his life, but it it's, it's like a very kind of grieving montage where he is like mourning the the fact that he didn't see the signs coming and also mourning the good times of this relationship because there are good things to look back on. I found myself really, really moved, especially by the last 2025 minutes of this movie, which I found to be light years better than the rest of the film. I just, I mean, that is like from the Regina Spector expectations versus reality scene to the end of the film. Dude is like 10 out of 10 movie making to me. Brad.

36:59 Yeah. It it's the perfect way to end the movie. And for me, the expectations versus reality scene is like an iconic scene in cinema history. I like, I think that a a scene like that, you can only make it in a movie. You can't bring that about in ATV show. It just wouldn't be the same. You wouldn't have the quality of filmmaking. You can't do that in a book like you can't do it in poetry or a song. Like, the only place you could make a scene like that is in a movie. And the emotional impact it has on the viewer is, I mean, shattering, especially like, once again, the the the the Choice of Hero by Regina Spector is like just the perfect mournful. Like it's driving and moving and yet sad. And then by the end of it, you slowly have the expectation box being pushed out by reality.

38:01 And you're like, yeah, that was the death of a dream that I just watched. And it's it's absolutely 10 out of 10. Perfect. And I feel like seeing the movie as a young person, that's one of those sequences where you watch and. You think? Oh. Other people have the same, like, really fucked up interior life that I also have. And, you know, yeah, these same, like, fantasy ideas of what will happen in their head that don't happen. Yeah. Yeah, and and the way that they lay the bread crumbs for the big reveal that Summer is engaged to some other guy now by giving him these kind of mini let downs all through that scene.

38:42 You know, the first, I think the first one is like the match cut when he she opens the door and she doesn't give him a kiss. And then he walks in and he nods to all her party guests. And then they cut to the reaction of the party guests. And in his expectations, they all like turn around and toast him. And in this one, they don't even notice that he's there. And it's just like this first little oh, like this is this is not going to go the way this guy thought it was going to go and leading to him off by himself drinking a beer, thinking about how he should be making out with her. And then Brad, I love the way, you know, on the left side of the screen with expectations, he's making out with her against a wall. And as that gets pushed out of frame, the way they accomplished that is that the camera tracks over like into the wall as they push it out so that you get this kind of natural like exiting of that bedroom scenario. And you put it perfectly.

39:36 It's it's the death of a dream in real time as his world is getting shattered. It really I like truly it is impeccable movie making, both in the edit, the sound direction and just like the way that the cinematography is set up in that scene. I like I was mind blown at how well that sequence holds up. And in on the Blu-ray, there's a, you know, making a special feature because of course there is. Where Marc Webb talks about that sequence and how important it was on the split screen that only 1/2 of the screen there's ever anything really happening in. So, you know, 1/2 there's the characters were in motion and you're watching and the other half is like Tom's just sitting still sort of staring off in the distance. And, and he talked about, you know, how how careful it was knowing that the audience wouldn't really be able to focus on both sides of the same time.

40:28 So had to make sure that one side was always sort of like it was clear. Nothing's really happening in This is the side you should be watching. Yeah, even the start of it, it's like the expectation is like 10 to 15 steps in front of the reality so that you can see and you you look to the right and you go, oh, the same thing's happening. I'm going to go back to the one that's further in the future. And then eventually they match to the exact same spot where you said Bob, and then they start to split again. And from that point on, they keep that dissonance of like action in one in action in the other. And it's, it's so, so incredible. Guys, I think that's actually a good place for us to hit pause here because when we come back from break after our fun little game, I want to dive more into the character of Tom as well as these performances by the two leads and and any supporting characters you guys want to talk about. But Tom is obviously the key to this whole movie, and he's the key to however you want to interpret the movie. I think the people that have issues with this movie, it really boils down to how you interpret the character of Tom and whether the script and the direction are endorsing all of his decisions or interrogating those decisions. And I think that that's kind of where I'm in conflict as well. So I'm excited to talk to you guys about that. But Brad, we have a whiskey to get to. So what do you say we tried this Pursuit United Triple Mash Rye? Let's get to it.

41:58 This is the Pursuit United here. Go ahead and hold it still for the folks. Pursuit United Triple Mash Rye barrel proof, uncut and unfiltered, just like our podcast. Brad, I was going to say a different word that starts with AP. But we'll leave it that that's true. Speak for yourself, my friend. Now listen, we love the folks at Bourbon Pursuit. We've had Kenny on the podcast before. I think when we did our review of Fargo, he joined us for that movie. We haven't had Ryan on. We really need to get him on the show as a guest host. But since we've had them on, they launched the Bourbon Pursuit brand and we have been huge fans of of Pursuit United since they started making it.

42:39 I've always loved the bourbon. Brad's always loved the rye. I think they're they're bourbon won whiskey of the year back in 2022 at the John Barley Corn Awards. Like I was going to say stuff, man. They for a company that obviously is a little more focused, they they don't put out a huge amount of stuff. Every single thing they do put out is really freaking good. And this one came with a note in the mail saying, Hey, I wanted to send you guys this because I think it's a Whiskey of the Year contender. And Bob, I've drank it now and I have thought. I have not, I have not drank it yet. Now I will say just the, the massive, as as Stephen Colbert used to say on the Colbert Report, the massive huevos rancheros that it takes to to say to someone, I think this is a whiskey of the year candidate is like, OK, man, if you're going to set the bar there, like I'm going to review it at that bar.

43:36 So we're going to answer this with whiskey of the year expectations. OK, Now this label is a blend of three whiskeys and they actually did very helpfully put the three whiskeys on the back here for us to read. So we've got 1W from Bardstown Bourbon Company, that is a 95.5 rye. We've got 2 whiskeys from Sagamore Spirit, both obviously rise. One of them is a 5243 and five, the five being malted barley and the other one is another 95.5 rye. This clocks in at 121.8 proof. I'm freaking ready. It's the day after Thanksgiving. Let's drink barrel proof whiskey. Brad, I'm trying it for the first time. Why don't you go ahead and give us your nosing notes while I dip my nose into this one?

44:19 Yeah, so this one is like baking spices and caramel and rye and sweet mint and like it almost maybe I have Thanksgiving on the mind. It reminds me of like the burnt marshmallows on top of a sweet potato casserole. Like it's it's got that marshmallowy kind of caramelized mallow vibe that I'm freaking digging. Dude this is an 8.5 for me on the nose. No, this is a, this is a 9.5. This is unbelievable, man. This smells like my favorite kind of bourbon, but I know that it's a rye and so it's going to have even more character to it than my favorite bourbon. It is decadent.

45:01 I think your your note of like kind of caramelized marshmallow is just perfect on top of this, man. It's super decadent. Sweet mint, I think is also a really good note here. There's a there's a ton going on in the glass. If you like really rich, decadent bourbons, this is a nose that is going to appeal to you. It's a nine and a half for me, Brad. Yeah, pallet dude drinking. This is where it gets nuts. The sweet mint explodes. For me. The marshmallow goes from being like a caramelized marshmallow to like actual marshmallow fluff. Like have you ever had like the marshmallow fluff out of the jar? It reminds me of marshmallow fluff.

45:42 It it's got a lot of rice spice and it hits once it's sat on my palate for a second. It's just like lemon zestiness. That is really, really nice. I like this a lot. A lot. This is a 9.5 for me. One of the highest compliments I can give this is that I don't want to just jump in with notes here. I need a second sip. Yep. So if you want to give your finish while I take a second sip and then I'll I'll catch up with you after that. So the finish it like falls off a tiny bit for the, the pallet, but that's just because the pallet is so, so good For me. The, the surprise on the finish was it gets like a little bit of a blueberry cobbler note going on.

46:25 The vanilla kind of starts to come through, but there's still a decent amount of like dill, mint, baking spices, rye experience going on. But it with a little bit of like a blueberry vanilla experience that I didn't get on the nose or the palate. So I, I really enjoyed the finish, came down a tiny bit to a nine out of 10, but really, really good. I think I am going to come down a little bit on both my palate and on my finish here. Part of that is because it was such a rich bourbony nose that there's a little bit of like, flavor whiplash for me. It this is a. Rye to the palate, it's a rye.

47:07 Yeah. And it isn't. However, though I will say this is a personal preference thing. It doesn't necessarily fall in my wheelhouse of like preferred Ryze, you know, that I think one of my favorite rice we've ever had on the show, Brad, is that Tumbling Dice rye. Yeah, that was very good. Like, you know, that really strong mint and kind of dill flavor to it. There's a little bit of sourness to a rye that I like. This one sticks in that sort of like minty, but more like barrel toast and kind of bitterness realm. And that doesn't appeal to me as much as the ones that tip a little bit more like sour. And so this is like, especially as I kick it to the back of my palate, I think the barrel notes become really, really prominent on this.

47:50 And it reminds me of like a toasted barrel finish that we get on bourbon sometimes. Like the, you know, you take Elijah Craig and then you drink Elijah Craig toasted barrel. And there's specific notes that come out in that. It's still really good. I wish it had a little bit more of that kind of like, you know, caramel brule latte thing I got going on on the nose. It doesn't have that sweet, decadent richness. I'm going to give it an 8.5 on both taste and on finish. Now balance, I think is I, I'm, I'm going to turn it over to you because it sounds like you started at a good baseline and then went up from there. I started at the top and came just a step down. How does that affect our balance scores here, Brad?

48:33 I think that this is a like a really well balanced whiskey that doesn't, it doesn't strike me as like a perfect balance. There's definitely peaks and valleys here. I'm going to give it an 8 1/2 out of 10. This is a really complex, interesting, lots of stuff going on rye. I don't know if it all works together. All the pieces like fit together perfectly, but I really like all of the individual pieces. I agree with that. Like on that 4th sip, it was the the sweetest sip yet at the front of my palate. But then at the very back of my palate, I'm getting leathery notes. I'm getting that sort of like bitter barrel char. There's some cigarette ash in there a little bit. And so it's like individual things that I would list in a list of things I like in a whiskey. I don't exactly know how the combination of them coheres, but I still like it a lot.

49:29 I think I'm going to stick it in 8.5. This is a damn good whiskey. Yeah. Now, Brad, on their website, they're listing this at 7999, which just like just to know where the provenance of these three whiskeys are, to know that it is blended in very small batches and to see what we get here at barrel strength. I think this is actually probably a pretty huge bargain. I expected this to be in like the one 20s. So if you're thinking like Christmas gift, $80 is pretty well in line with what I would want to pay for this bread. Yeah, this is a nine out of 10 on value, like really strong value. If it was like drop down to like 80 or 75, I think this is a 10 out of 10 value.

50:11 But as it is, 80 bucks for this whiskey is an absolute home run. And truly, if you're looking for a good Christmas present, something that will surprise and a whiskey lover would really enjoy, this is a great, phenomenal purchase. Yeah, and, and I'll say most of the time, even if I like a whiskey, I'll say something like, I can't imagine how good a cocktail would be with this. I would say don't put this in a cocktail. Like this is too complex and and there's too much to kind of chew on here that you'll lose some of that if you just throw it into a Manhattan. I'm sure it would make a fantastic Manhattan, but I think this deserves to be sipped on meat, and that's one of the highest compliments I can give to it.

50:55 Brad, I'm coming out to a 44 out of 50 on this one. Where you at? Half point higher, sitting at a 44.5 out of 50. All right, so that is taking us to an 88 1/2 out of 100 or 44.25 on average. Now again, anything over a 40 is kind of a no brainer recommendation. When it hits 45 out of 50 is where it joins like the elite of the elite on our podcast. So this is 1/2 point basically shy of that. Do you think calling it a Whiskey of the Year contender is fair to say, Brad? Absolutely. Yeah, this is one of those whiskeys that it like is so close to elite tier that in any given year, this could be a contender. It it could be an option for anyone who's like just vibing with it that day to be like, oh, this is the best whiskey I've drank all year.

51:48 This is up there for me in that category. I'm not a car guy, but I I kind of imagine that like, you know, people who know cars in and out, they have their preferred brands, they have their preferred styles, they have their dream car out there. They can still appreciate a machine that's well built. And I think that you and I both kind of said, I like this a lot. I don't know if it's exactly my wheelhouse. And for us to land half a point shy of giving this like an all time high score, consider us on the lower end of people who love this product. And it's still almost at a 90 out of 100 for us. This is a damn good whiskey. This is absolutely a whiskey of the year contender. I think Kenny and Ryan once again have knocked it out of the park.

52:34 And for 80 bucks like you really can't do much better than this. Yeah, We really should go look back at all of our scores and see how many whiskies in the seven, seven years of doing this podcast that we've given a 90, an average of 90 out of 100. We've had a few where I'm at like a 47, you're at a 42. But like for both of us to be an average of 45 or higher, it's probably less than 10. Oh, yeah. Like, I mean, so let's say we've reviewed 500 whiskeys. Now you're talking about, yeah, I mean, even more than that. You're talking about 10 out of 500, right? Like you're talking like top one or 2% of the whiskeys that we've had and this is just shy of that.

53:24 All right, everybody. That was Pursuit United Rye triple mash deliciousness. Yeah, I mean. Exactly. What it's called? What a great. Whiskey, Bob. That was darn good, man. A good way to end the year, Brad. Darn Tooting good. You know what else is darn Tooting good, Bob? I actually do. It's not what you think it is, though. I want to give a quick plug for something real quick. And I think this is up on our, our TikTok and Instagram reels. Now, we've been using this app called Riverside to record our podcast this year. And I'm not going to give them a ton of promo, but they're owned by Spotify. And so the same way that Spotify does like a, a Spotify wrapped at the end of the year, they did like a recap of your podcast's videos on Riverside for us to look at. And they, they put together this little clip and it just says, it's a clip that says your most used word in 2025. And it's literally just a clip of me saying the word Brad like 75 times.

54:22 The same way they're like, it's all the suffering suffering. Yes, it's all the emotions. It's it's Brad. So much suffrage it's. It is my favorite thing and and every time that I'm ending a sentence with comma Brad to throw over to you now I'm just thinking about I'm just adding to the tally now of the number of times I've said that. Yeah, we've only used Riverside for like half the year. Next year it's just going to be like 2000 Brads. It's going to be like when Scorsese was just outdoing himself with the number of F bombs he was putting in every successive movie in the 90s. That's that's how this is, Brad. See, there it is again, Brad. All right. It's time for us to get into our next segment of the day, which is our Game 2 Facts and a Falsehood.

55:08 Brad is going to try to stumpy ball 2 all right. And what is wrong? 2 facts and a falsehood. 2 Facts and a Falsehood is the part of the show where Brad presents me with three items as fact about the making of this movie, one of which is a complete lie. Now, Brad, I have not been doing great this season at 2 Facts and a Falsehood. I'm slowly chiseling my way out of the hole that I've made for myself. But we've also been kind of gambling because we've had a lot of guests on recently. And the way this works is we have to figure out the falsehood. But if I rely on the expertise of our guest, what happens is if we lose, I get 2 losses on the day and only one victory if we win.

55:54 So there is a lot of pressure on Daniel. Luckily it sounds like he loves this movie, so I'm hoping that he knows quite a bit of trivia about it. Brad, we did watch this movie on Amazon Prime Video and they have that little X-ray thing that comes up on the side to tell you fun facts about the movie. So every time I had to pause the movie, I did read the little X-ray fact. So I'm hoping you didn't pull your two facts and a falsehood from that, because I might actually get you today if that's where you're coming from. I will say every every once in a while I will also notice the X-ray facts and then like later when I'm doing my research on IMDb, I'll see the exact same thing on there. And I'm like, I wonder if that was like AI grabbing it and putting it over.

56:37 If like some user was like copy. Paste, copy, paste. Yep. All right man, hit me with your two facts and a falsehood. Fact #1 The movie was filmed while Matthew Gray Gubler, who plays Paul, was on hiatus from his television series Criminal Minds, during which Gubler severely dislocated his knee while making this film, not while on set, but while dancing during his time off. His injury was severe enough that it required him to use a cane for more than six months, and they had to explain it on the show by having him shot in the knee.

57:18 Wow, it's a good time. Fact #2 Early drafts of the final bench scene overlooking downtown Los Angeles, which, by the way, I had no idea this movie was set in Los Angeles. I thought this was your job of not they they don't make it look like a parking lot I. Thought this was New York City. Every single time I watched it, there was something this time that I heard them like once say the word LA and I was like hold on, this is not in LA. What? What are you talking anyways? So this wait, so the part where they go to the wedding on the train, did you think they took an Amtrak from New York to California to go to a wedding?

57:59 Well, no, it it doesn't have to be. California, There's like palm trees in the background of that wedding scene. Like very prominently. I just figured they went up, you know, upstate New York somewhere, you know. Those are the palm trees of Newark, of course. Obviously the Hoboken palms, yeah. Dude I had no idea. Thought it was New York City the whole time. Early drafts of the final bench scene overlooking downtown Los Angeles included a longer exchange in which Summer explicitly apologize for hurting Tom, but the lines were cut during rehearsals when both actors agreed the apology felt too explanatory and weakened the ambiguity of the moment. Fact #3 The scene where Tom and Summer play around with the furniture in the store. IKEA, which is the worst store on the planet that is a braggy fact, isn't actually in the script. In the script, Tom and Summer are at dinner as Tom makes fun of another couple and Summer refers to him as Judge Mental. Oh, interesting.

59:04 Sorry, there's a lot of little rabbit trails in today's little. Asides there I'm really struggling. I don't know which of these would be the falsehood #3 sounds like that does sound like the kind of thing you'd cut from a first draft, right? Like you don't want to make him meaner than he needs to be at that stage of the movie. The Matthew Gray Gubler 1 is throwing me a little bit too, and I'm not a Criminal Minds watcher. I imagine that he did walk with a cane for part of that show, or you wouldn't have either pulled the fact or made it up. But I've also never heard of a dislocated knee requiring a cane to walk with like that. Sounds a little iffy to me and #2. I know so much about.

59:50 I know so much about medicine, Bob. I I know you do, Brad, all your degrees, Daniel, I don't even remember what number 2 was, so I'm just going to throw over to you for your. General impressions I had to reread #2 if that's if that's allowed in the by laws of the game. Fact number 2 was basically Summer and Tom at the bench scene, changing the line from being directly apologetic to more ambiguous. That one sounds. Real. Are you talking about the? Are you talking about the bench scene at the end of the movie or the beginning? Then yeah. The end of the movie. Yeah. OK. So that one sounds real to me. So I think you're choosing between #1 and #3 I want to say #1 sounds real just because it was so detailed. And I don't know, maybe I'm being judge mental Brad's imagination here.

1:00:39 But like, you have to be a serious fanfic writer, I think to to write number one. Yeah. So I guess I'd go with #3 but I I truly don't know the answer. Now here's the scenario for for #1 to be a Brad G invention. There are a few television shows that Brad watches that I just like. I would have never pegged him as a watcher of that show. And so if he is a Criminal Minds watcher, then Matthew Gray Gubler would be one of the like 10 actors ever that Brad recognizes from this thing to that thing. And so he'd be like, I recognize this guy. I have to invent a fact about this. And the more I'm saying this, the more I'm talking myself into this being exactly what Brad did. But I, I do like to, if we're going to go down, I'd rather go down together.

1:01:29 And I think #3 is fishy enough that I will put my lot in with Daniel and take the 2 L's if necessary, and I'll go ahead and lock in #3 Wait, no, you said three sounded true, right? No, I think 1 sound. I think 1 and 2 sound true. 3 is the one I would guess. But again, I I truly don't know the answer. So you're, you know, join me at your own peril. Yeah, let's say 33 is the falsehood Brad final answer. Bob #3 is not the falsehood #1 is not the falsehood. Really. Is the falsehood. And it says a lot about what we all think of summer, doesn't it? You know.

1:02:13 I should have known when I asked you to reread it and you summarize instead of rereading it. I I usually do summarize it. It's funny man. So I guess I get 2 losses on the day. Two losses, Bob, I'm. Sorry, I don't know if I don't know if we've ever had it happen that I went with the one that the guest suggested and we were both wrong and that it was a completely different one. Yeah. I almost feel like that deserves 3 losses because we were so bad at that picking. I'll. I'll take it you take those 3 losses. No, no, no, no. Hey, I didn't say.

1:02:53 It so 2 two more in the loss column on 2 facts and a falsehood, which bums me out. But luckily we have this movie to talk about, which does not bum me out. And I want to get back into talking about the movie a little bit here. And it's time for us to talk about the main character of Tom because boy, oh boy, have our experiences with this movie changed over time and our relationship to the character of Tom Brad, as I remember back in season 1, you know, we're in our late 20s. We're both married at that point and we're starting to realize that Tom is a very immature man and that he's really bad at communicating upfront and setting healthy boundaries.

1:03:34 And I think that AII have not changed in that opinion at all. In fact, I feel even more so now that he's even harder to relate to because he reminds me of a time in my life where I was like that. And I wonder sometimes if like, I'm so embarrassed of how I used to behave that like I'm I'm angrily pushing back on on this character now because of that. But I think the more intriguing question is that in season 1, I remember asking the question, does this movie know what it's doing in terms of portraying Tom as a, a, an immature and short sighted character? Or is it kind of accidentally pointing out the the toxic nature of SO belief system?

1:04:26 I will say in season 1 we didn't do 2 facts and a falsehood. Now, having done some more research on the movie, The writer Scott Neustadter, who is one of the two writers on this film, based this entire script on a relationship that he had and in multiple interviews was like 75% of what happens in this movie happened to me. And it seems if that is the case, that the movie is trying to portray Tom as the hero of the story. The reality is there's no hero of this story like I, I I don't think it has to be an either or.

1:05:12 And I don't know if this is like paring away at future things we're going to talk about. But when it comes to Tom specifically, I really like Daniel, what we talked about earlier, this idea that this really is a reminiscence. And I think that if I was reflecting back on the story of my life and I remembered all the things that Tom remembered about his relationship or things that I remembered about my relationship, it doesn't seem like he's very being very kind to himself. Like he's remembering a lot of moments that were not his best. And so I weirdly don't think that if you take that kind of viewpoint for this movie, I don't think you're actually seeing Tom as the hero.

1:05:58 I think he's reflecting on and being like, yeah, I, I kind of sucked and I got really drunk and said stupid things and I got into a fist fight for this girl who didn't want me to get into a fist fight for her. And like, there's all sorts of stuff going on. And then there's moments where he's like, yeah, no, like I, I did a lot of good things and we had a lot of fun. And and to me, that helps me make sense of like the time of it all for this movie. Yeah, Daniel, what, what are your reactions? So when we talk about the hero, villain question, I mean, I, I agree with Brad. There's, there's, there's no hero really. But I, I do think there's a villain. And to me, there's a when I rewatched it this time, I really latched on to what I feel like is the key line in the movie, going back to Brad's quiz, the park bench scene. Did any, I'm, I'm curious before I said, did anything stand out to you, either of you guys is a really important line in that scene.

1:07:04 The the final one where he's like on his way to the interview. Yeah. Oh, it's it's not clicking. To me at the moment, there were two moments in that scene that really hit me. And the first one is when he's still very mad at her and he just looks at her and says you just do whatever you want, don't you? And then the second line is kind of the undoing of that where she has told him, like, you actually taught me a lot about being hopeful and optimistic and embracing love. And she said, like, you were right it. I don't know how she says it. She says like, it just it wasn't me that you were looking for. And I think that kind of put everything into perspective for me. But I'm curious what the line was for you. Well, so the first line, you said you just do whatever you want, don't you?

1:07:47 Do you remember what she said that he replied that with? No. They were talking about the wedding they were at before, You know, why'd you? Dance. Why'd you dance? Because I wanted to. Exactly. He said, why'd you dance with me? And she said because I wanted to. And she didn't even say it. She said it in such a whimsical way. She said because I wanted to. And that to me is the is, is the key line of, I mean, it's not the line of the movie in any way, but it's, it's the, it's the key line of the sort of emotional story the movie is telling. You know, this is a a fight I've gotten in with people over the years is the idea of what do we owe one another? And I think that when you are dating people, you owe your intentions not to crush them.

1:08:44 Essentially, one, once you realize that someone likes you, whether it's love or not, whatever, whatever stage is that once you realize you kind of have the ability to crush people, you owe it to them not to. And that line to me is where Summer sort of reveals she knew she could have crushed him and she and she just did. Because in the in that moment, it's not that she wanted to crush him, it's that she didn't care that that was going to be the result. Yeah, yeah. Wow. That's, man. That's a great way of framing it. You know, when we were in between segments here off air, kind of talking about how we wanted to bring this up, Daniel, you were referring to this sort of like dichotomy that's been floated of like when you watch this movie in your 20s, you see Tom is the hero. When you watch it as an adult, you see Summer is the hero and Tom is the villain.

1:09:34 And I do I agree with both of you guys that I think to think that either one of them is 100% in the right is to take too simplistic a reading of both characters. And I think that I went into this movie this time and got very quickly annoyed with the character of Tom and his insistence on making something of this relationship that she clearly said she didn't want and and building her up into this romantic ideal while at every point she seemed to be telling him not to do so. And then it hits a point in the movie where there, I think it was the IKEA scene for me where I'm like, this seems like couple behavior. This is not something that you do with a guy that you're just just hanging out with. And that's actually what he then refers to. Now he makes an ass of himself when he punches the guy and gets punched in the bar.

1:10:21 But then when he finally kind of takes his righteous stand and says, I say we're a couple, damn it. Like you don't do this stuff with your friend. Summer is also a very selfish person. And I think, Brad, you know, the key for me as I was texting you about this earlier, is at the very beginning of the movie, they tell you everything you need to know about both of these characters that Summer's dealing with. She's informed by this trauma of her parents marriage dissolving in front of her eyes. And So what she's responding to as a person and what she's going to be setting herself up for is like, I will not commit to a serious relationship because serious relationships end and they hurt people.

1:11:03 So I will have all of the trappings of a serious relationship and, and refuse to take responsibility and refuse to put a label on it. And then Tom, meanwhile, you get the great line about him having a total misreading of the movie The Graduate. So then that comes back around at the end of the movie when he takes her to see The Graduate, a movie that crucially ends with Dustin Hoffman stealing away a bride from the altar to run away with him and both of them realizing in real time as they pull away from the church, this was a bad decision. And that's where the movie ends. And you see some are freaking shattered by this because it's all of her fears wrapped into one.

1:11:46 It's somebody running out on a committed relationship and it scares her to death. And that's what sets her off on breaking up with him. So I, I think that like, I do think Summer as a character sets boundary. She's more aware of her own flaws and tries to set boundaries, but she is still very much in process and she's still very much a flawed person. And Tom's big flaw is that he doesn't even know what his flaws are for most of the movie. So Summer might be a little bit farther along in her development, but she's really no better than he is. And I think that, you know, you can go from Tom's the Tom's the hero to Tom's the villain. But then I think there's a, there's another step, which is like, people are complicated.

1:12:30 Neither of these people are perfect. Sometimes relationships don't work out because you catch people at the wrong time. And that's just how it is. Well, and you brought up the IKEA scene and I think that's important too, you know, like look, I mean we've all been there situation ships are fine, friends with benefits are fine. Like date how you want to date, but if you know you you, if you see something as a situation chip or you see something as friends with benefits, don't then go Playhouse with that person, right? Yep, Yep, yeah, there there's. There is no nothing says playing house more than literally going to IKEA and playing house. Yeah, but. They were playing with the Flug, Brad, Yeah.

1:13:12 I, I think the, the one of the like key things that's super sad is when they mimic like the IKEA scene, but they start with the sad part where Tom's like doing the faucets and trying to call back to something. And you can tell that he's trying to call back to something. And then they give it to you later. And it makes you all the more sad as you watch it later because you're like, oh, but I know where this goes. And that to me is so heartbreaking because like it, it's, it's so true to life that when you feel a relationship dissolving, what you turn to is like, oh, but look at all these inside jokes we have like, and that you, you, you see him falling into that and you just immediately think, oh, Jesus, I've been there. Yeah.

1:14:02 Well, and I think that that is one of those places where Marc Webb does a service to the movie, and we can kind of talk about the character of Summer a little bit more if you guys would like, because like I said, I do think she's a flawed character. I think that a really simplistic reading of this movie is to see Tom's skewed perception of the past as like a the film maker's verdict on Summer, which it is not. And I and hearing you talk about the screenwriter, Brad, and how this was based on him, it's like, oh, maybe he was a little biased too. But Marc Webb actually said this is directly off the Wikipedia page. Summer is an immature view of a woman. She is Tom's view of a woman.

1:14:43 He doesn't see her complexity and the consequence for him is heartbreak. In Tom's eyes, Summer is perfection, but perfection has no depth. Summer is not a girl. She's a phase. And I was like, damn, this guy actually did understand what he wanted to do with this movie and all the accusations I ever hurled at it for perhaps unconsciously being more complex than it is. I don't think that's true. I think, I think Marc Webb 100% set out to make a movie about complex people and he succeeded with it. Yeah, so do you guys think that Summer is a manic Pixie dream girl? It it kind of feels.

1:15:24 Wants her to be. It feels like an Inception type of thing where like within the world of the film, in Tom's mind, during the relationship, she is therefore she's portrayed as that. And yet the glimpses, the cracks of reality that you see throughout the movie, you're like, yeah, no, She's like, she's a normal human being who makes mistakes and isn't lovable at times and is very lovable at other times. And like her major flaw, what you said, Daniel, I, I think you're right. Her major flaw is that she just does what she wants. And and sometimes that's great and sometimes that hurts other people. And her commitment to doing what she wants to figure out who she is.

1:16:08 Another call back to why this is the most millennial movie ever is like is going to hurt other people. And I, I think if there's one piece of dissonance for me, it's the, and I don't know how else you would have done it, but it's the quickness between her getting engaged and married and then sitting with him on the park bench and just having this very serene, like this is where I was at emotionally. And I, I'm sorry that it hurt you, but but here we are now as mature adults and let's have a nice resolution. That's the only part for me, that she's kind of a manic Pixie, like counsellor's dream girl.

1:16:50 Manic Pixie therapy girl. We're we are coining that phrase today, Brad, on this podcast. That's good. The the where I question the trope is I think one of the main tenants of the trope is that the female character only exists as a narrative device to draw the male character out of sort of this he he kind of has. And I don't think that's true in this movie. I don't I don't think that the movie ever puts her in a box of being there to turn Tom into something he's not already. So I had this conversation with my wife earlier tonight and she thinks that that is true because that's the architect plot of the movie.

1:17:34 Is that only only once you know he has the heartbreak Does he Does he then decide to re pursue architecture and that that's the sort of manic Dixie dream girl of it all? I mean, yeah, it does seem like the the thrust of the movie is like this relationship came at a pivotal point of his life and it moved him forward. I mean, it really feels like a La La Land in terms of the plot of like this very toxic relationship kind of pushes us forward into our own respective careers. And if we hadn't kind of butted heads and had this beautiful love affair wildness, then we never would have become who we needed to become for our respective careers or future marriages or things like that.

1:18:27 And I think that's that's one of the most truly human elements of this is that whenever you talk to anybody who's older and seems to have a bit of wisdom about them, they don't look back on their failures, on their heart breaks on the disappointing stuff of their life and go like, man, I would get rid of all that pain if I could. It's like, no, like that's part of who made me, made me who I am. And I think that's what you kind of see as Tom moves forward at the end of the film, and it's really fascinating. Yeah, And I think that when this movie finally drops some of the goofiness of the asides, you know, like the they extended like, homage to French New Wave cinema and then Bergman films is funny. But it's also like, I'm really glad that when it hits that last 25 minutes, it's like, OK, it's time to, like, tell a real story here.

1:19:20 Yeah. And they commit to it because I think that it gets at something very beautiful about maturing and coming of age and learning how time just kind of screws things up sometimes, Brad. And it, it gets me back to our two of our favorite movies we've ever done on this podcast, you know, Brief Encounter being one of them and past lives being another, where you have to reckon with the fact that like, maybe Summer was the perfect person for him if they were both just a little further along in their journeys of maturing. And you know what? We're never going to find out. And that's OK. But it's also OK to acknowledge the the tragedy in that, that there's something to mourn there and that there is real beauty that came out of it as well.

1:20:08 And I think that this movie at its best. Doesn't try to undercut that theme because it knows that you can't, you can't. You can't make light of that because that's the crux of it. Yeah, dude, I mean, past lives, like all I can think about is like Tom moving away and coming back and like Summer and her husband having the conversations of like the, you know, I don't, I don't know if I speak the same language as you of your dreams and things like that. And like that wrestling, you're like, you're like, yeah, it's all there, man. I mean, like you said about, you know, maybe they were right for each other at different times. I mean, this is a conversation my wife had. I have all the time was like, we wonder, you know, we didn't meet till we were in our mid 30s. And we wonder if we would even would have liked each other if we'd met 10 years earlier.

1:20:52 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 100% I'm still shocked that my wife liked me 10 years ago. Like I wild wild that she fell in love with that guy. Wild to me. On that note, guys, I think it's time for us to get into our last segment of the day, which we call let's make it a double. We're near the end of the episode, so thanks listening to the film and Whiskey show. Let's have another film with this one, even if it's struggling. It's the final segment of the day. Now let's make it a double. Let's Make It a Double is the part of the show where we pick a movie to pair up with this one to make the perfect double feature. Now, we've already thrown out some titles here, which I think would be fantastic titles. None of them are ones that I'm picking for my Let's Make it a double, but I'd like to throw over to our guest first. Daniel, this is a movie that is clearly near and dear to your heart, so I'm sure that you've given this some thought. What is your double feature recommendation for 500 Days of Summer?

1:21:47 Yeah, I mean, there are a few directions to go. Eternal Sunshine is an obvious one, but like you said, we've we've mentioned that several Times Now. Two things come to mind. The 1st is Annie Hall because I think the movies are stylistically very similar in the way that both movies use a lot of tricks like they're both movies have an animated sequence or a split screen sequence or a black and white sequence. And both movies, you know, use the same sort of grand vocabulary of cinema to to tell the tale They're they're they're rolling with. But the one I'd really go with probably Before Sunset, because so for anyone that doesn't know, Before Sunset is the middle film of the before trilogy, but it's the best 1.

1:22:35 And I think it's 1 you could watch by itself, even if you haven't seen Before Sunrise. Before Sunset takes place nine years later and it catches up and it's it's, it's a movie purely about what ifs. And I think that 500 Days of Summer brings up a lot of ideas of of what ifs. Yeah, that's a great one. Brad, over to you, man. Oh man, I there's a few that are running through my brain and Bob, I'm going to do the thing that you hate when I do because I know the movie I'm thinking of, but I can't think of the title of it. I think her would be an interesting pairing. I think Lost in translation could be an interesting pairing. We already said La La Land, past lives, that like there's a lot of great, great pairings.

1:23:26 I just recently watched a Chinese film. Is it the color of red? No, it was in the mood for love. In the mood for love. Thank you. I think in the mood for. Love the color of red. That would have worked as a title too. I. Literally that. Like I was like, there's red everywhere. I think I think In the Mood for Love would be a great pairing that that sense of like brokenness that slowly begins to permeate the two main characters lives, the longing and desire that they have for a healthy relationship, that the timings just not right. They're not in the right place. Their culture doesn't necessarily accept what might happen if they did that there's just all sorts of stuff going on. I think it'd be a great pairing with this. Guys, I think this might be one of the best. Let's make it a double segments we've ever done because every single movie we've recommended I think is like a perfect pairing with this movie.

1:24:23 Annie Hall. I didn't even think about that. And as soon as you said it, it was like, oh, this movie is totally indebted to Annie Hall. Brad, I will say that like I had two very obvious directions that I could go, one of which is ATV show. And it's ATV Show that started four years before this movie came out. It's one that Daniel referenced when we were off air. And I'll bring it back up. And that's How I Met Your Mother, 'cause I think this, this is like you could technically call this derivative of How I Met Your Mother. Ted Mosby is an architect and like he is a hopeless, romantic, lovelorn idiot that consistently makes mistakes with women is super immature. His friend Marshall Erickson is exactly like Matthew Gray Gubler, like married young.

1:25:07 Like there's there's so many parallels. And I think that like the both the wit of that show and the sort of ridiculous cutaways of that show are present here in in an almost annoying way. Like my wife was just telling me last week. I Met Your Mother used to be like one of our favorite shows and she's very much like like, I think I've kind of outgrown it. Now I go back and I watch it and it just doesn't have the effect for me anymore. Same here. Yeah, and I think that at its best moments, it still does reach those heights for me, same to the same as this movie. And and I think that I'll reflect that in my score now to give it more of a cinematic thing. I don't want to give it to ATV show. I will say Spike Jones's movie her would be my pairing here. And I think that like it's it's an obvious plot thing. This is a guy that works for a greeting card company and uses a girl that may or may not be real to him to build up his hopes and dreams and keep him from interacting at a more human level.

1:26:04 So like there's the thematic element there of it too. But like I said, I don't think you could go wrong with any of the movies that we've suggested today. And I think, guys, that speaks to how good of a movie 500 Days of Summer really is. Yeah, I I still, every time I've come back to this movie since that first viewing, feel like my understanding of the film changes, my appreciation deepens, and I just I like the movie more and more. And to go back to what I said the very start, we don't get many movies like this anymore. And so I I just find myself more and more enjoying this film mob. Daniel, have you seen there's a new movie that just came out a few maybe like a month ago called Eternity? I have not.

1:26:50 It's in theaters where I live right now and I haven't gotten to it yet. It Brad and I was going to text you about this too. If you and Haley watch a movie together anytime soon, whether in the theater or at home. Eternity fits in this sub genre of like it's romantic comedy, but it kind of hits on like the about time level of like there's something really deep and beautiful here as well. So if you're into new movies folks, I would highly recommend checking out the movie Eternity as a pairing with 500 Days of Summer. But I will say I have a 11 week old child at home. Haley and I are not going to the movies together. Brad, congratulations. I did not know that. Oh. Thanks, man. Yeah, another baby girl.

1:27:34 That helps explain why you're not setting your fantasy basketball lineup side everyday, Yes. Listen, when it hits VOD, Brad, I'm telling you, spend the 10 bucks or whatever to watch it because it's it's totally worth it. I will. And guys, that gets us into our final scores on this movie. I think I've talked myself back up into a higher score than I was going to give. There are elements of this movie that I do think that I've outgrown. There are elements of this movie that I don't think work and it it gets a little too silly for me at parts still. But then the thing that I fall back on when I know that I'm no longer the target audience for this movie is like, do the mechanics of the machine still work? And this movie is put together like freaking clockwork and it works like gangbusters. And that last 25 minutes still hits you like a sledgehammer. And so I think I'm going to still, I was going to give it an 8 1/2.

1:28:24 I think you guys have talked me into coming up to a nine out of 10 on this movie. Yeah, I mean, we didn't even talk about the fact that Tom has a Ferris Bueller's style, like dance number in the middle of the movie, but it's for no reason other than the fact that he and Summer had sex for the first time. Yeah. It's great and it's like it's still in my Thunder because I was going to talk about that when I gave my rating. Yeah, I'm like, yeah, that's just like, what a great scene to just show what it feels like to be intimate with a woman for the first time. It's just. The only thing that may have topped it since was there is a movie man, I can't remember the name of it.

1:29:04 It's a Daniel Radcliffe romantic comedy that Adam Driver was like the costar in before he got famous. And there's just a scene where they're sitting in Adam Driver's apartment, and he is Adam Driver has just finished having sex with his girlfriend and then comes out to console Daniel Radcliffe about something. And he just pulls a plate of nachos out of the microwave. And he's sitting at the table and he looks at the nachos and then just shouts to the heavens he goes. I just had sex, I'm about to have nachos. Best day of my life it is. It's on par with that scene, right? That's where I'm at with that. 2013's What If?

1:29:45 Yes, that's the movie. There you go. I know there let's make this, but I'm I'm very curious now. All that to say, I really love this movie. There's not many things that stick out to me is wrong. And Bob, I was I was coming in thinking I was going to give this a nine. I think I'm also going to jump up a half point. I'm going to give it a nine and a half. Wow, dude, 9 1/2. All right, Daniel, are you going to be the low man here? I'm not. I'm going to be the high man. To me, it's a 10. This is is a perfect movie for what it is. And I just want to say I mean Brad talked about the the the Joseph Gordon Levitt song and dance scene set to Hall and Oates.

1:30:32 You make my dreams come true. That might be my number one all time favorite needle drop scene in a movie. It's it's incredible. It, it is so vividly tied to a memory for me is, you know, in college, there was a girl I was in love with who I've been pursuing for a long time. And, you know, finally on a Thursday night, we made out finally. And I have a distinct memory in my mind of walking to class the next, the next morning, Friday morning. And every person I saw, like I'm thinking in my head, they don't even know that I made out with Kristen last night. Yes.

1:31:15 For me, for me, it's the, it's the seeing, seeing his reflection, and it's Hansel. Linking dude. So that's. How you feel? Yeah, that happened to me in 2005. And then Fast forward to 2009 and I'm seeing 500 Days of Summer in theaters and that scene happens. And I just thought, fuck me, this is this nails it. This is exactly what this very male emotion feels like. Dude, I have a distinct memory. Bob, I think you were with me in college. I know exactly. I can't wait for you to tell the story, Brad. So. Bob and I were coming back. I don't know, it's like one or two in the morning coming back from Taco Bell or something. And we're about to pull into our parking lot and I see my roommate Chris walking back to the dorm. And Chris is like a notorious, all four years of college would go to bed by 10:00 PM like seven days a week kind of guy. So I saw him walking.

1:32:08 I'm like, I rolled my window down. I'm like, Chris, what you, what you doing there, buddy? You know, I'm just, you know, coming back from from studying. But he just had this giant smile on his face like, I'm just coming back from studying. And I was like, Chris, did you just make out with a girl? And he goes. Yeah, I did. I was like, dude, we're going to get milkshakes. You just have this face like you just want to high 5 people. And Daniel, I'm telling you the, the way this actually happened in reality was we, we came to find out Chris had been crushing on this girl for months and, and was very slow to, to make a move. And so we encountered him. We pulled into our our parking lot of the dorm and it's right next to a series of basketball courts and everything is, I'm, I'm telling you, covered in fog.

1:32:56 And from the fog, in the most cinematic, backlit, silhouetted way possible, we see Chris just walking with a different gait. So like, like you could have dropped in like George Thorogood's bad to the bone as this man, he was a different man emerging from the fog. And it was like, we just witnessed this dude become a man. It was a different said. It was incredible. Reach out and ask if he has seen this movie and specifically that scene and see how well it, yeah, you know, lines up. Approximate. Emotional memory. Oh my goodness. Alright so I think guys in summary, having sex is great right?

1:33:38 Also. Daniel. Gives nachos. Fantastic. Daniel gives this a 10 out of 10. Brad gives it a 9.5, I give it a nine. And that means this is a movie that you need to see if you have not seen 500 Days of Summer. It truly is one of the last great romantic comedies that we've gotten in a long, long time. I wish we got more of these. There have been a few since 2009, but there are few and far between. And about watching it again. Reminds me of like why I miss these movies so much, Brad. And Bob, I have a question for you. Yeah, How long is this movie? Brad, it is as close to being a 90 minute movie as you can get. It's what SNL refers to as a short ass movie. Yes, I love it.

1:34:27 All right, Daniel Zweio, thank you so much for joining us today. Tell us where folks can find you and what you're currently working on. I'm on Blue Sky at at Third Man Movies and not working on much, although I do have a a a part in an upcoming Roger Ebert piece about the best craft elements of film of the year. I I wrote about one of my favorite screenplays of the year, and it is not going to be what you'd predict. How awesome. Speaking of which, Brad Roger Ebert gave this movie 4 out of four stars. Because Roger Ebert knows what's up. Did you did you read his review? Yeah, it was fantastic. The very final line was like, hey, F the parentheses.

1:35:11 And then like, there's nothing after that. It's just like I refuse to use the parentheses in the title of. This movie and everybody else also doesn't, Yeah. Same. All right, guys, that does it for us today. Thank you again to our guest, Daniels. YO, if you want to reach out to us and let us know what you think of 500 Days of Summer, you can find us on any of our social media platforms, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Tiktok or YouTube at Film Whiskey. Or if you want to get join the conversation, we are on Discord. We have our own server. We have conversations about life, movies, whiskey, trucking, all sorts of stuff. Jump on there. You can find a link to our Discord at the end of every single one of our show notes.

1:35:52 We will be back next week going through another one of our Season 1 masterpieces, but until then, I'm Bob Book. I'm Brad G. And we'll see you next time.