July 20, 2025
Marvel vs. DC - The Ultimate Comic Book War. Superman vs The Fantastic Four
What began as comic book competition became the defining entertainment war of the 21st century. In 1961, failing Atlas Comics challenged industry leader DC with the flawed heroes of Fantastic Four, sparking Stan Lee's "Brand Echh" campaign that revolutionized marketing. By 1972, Marvel had overtaken DC in sales, but success bred bitterness. Jack Kirby's 1970 departure to DC turned personal—he created villain "Funky Flashman" as vicious revenge against Stan Lee.
The rivalry exploded into Hollywood with Marvel's $30 billion MCU dominance versus DC's troubled $6 billion DCEU failure. Now James Gunn, who worked for both sides, leads DC's complete reboot. In July 2025, his Superman faces Marvel's Fantastic Four in the most crucial superhero showdown ever, with both films tracking for massive opening weekends that could reshape the entire industry.
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WEBVTT
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Caalarugashark Media. Welcome back to Feud's Power, pride, and payback.
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I'm Marcus Reid. In our previous episodes, we've explored feuds
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between individuals, families, and even fictional universes. But tonight we're
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diving into the most consequential corporate rivalry in entertainment history.
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This is a feud that has shaped childhoods, divided friendships,
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and created a fifty billion dollar industry that now dominates
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global pop culture. This is the story of Marvel versus DC,
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a rivalry that began in the comic book pages of
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the nineteen sixties and has exploded into the biggest entertainment
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war of the twenty first century. It's a feud that
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started with a failed comic book company challenging an industry
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giant and evolved into a battle between Disney and Warner
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Brothers for the hearts, minds, and wallets of billions of
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fans worldwide. Unlike our other feuds, this one involves thousands
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of creators, millions of fans, and some of the most
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beloved fictional characters ever created. Superman versus Spider Man, Batman
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versus Iron Man, Wonder Woman versus captain Marvel. These aren't
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just character debates. They represent fundamentally different philosophies about heroism, storytelling,
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and what audiences want from their entertainment. But this rivalry
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runs deeper than just comics or movies. It's about the
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vision of Stan Lee versus the legacy of DC's founders.
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It's about Jack Kirby's bitter departure from Marvel to DC
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and his revenge through the character Funky Flashman. It's about
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corporate pride, creative control, and the price of success in
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an industry where creators often get left behind. Today, as
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we record this episode in June twenty twenty five, the
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rivalry has reached a new crescendo. In July, James Gunn's
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Superman reboot will face off against Marvel's Fantastic Four first
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Steps in what's being called the most important superhero movie
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battle in history. The future of both cinematic universes may
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hang in the balance, But to understand how we got here,
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we need to go back to nineteen sixty one, when
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a failing comic book company decided to challenge the industry
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leader with a team of flawed heroes called the Fantastic Four.
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What followed was a revolution that changed not just comics,
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but all of popular culture forever. This is Episode twelve,
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Heroes and Villains, Act one, the Golden Age Foundation. In
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nineteen thirty eight, two teenagers from Cleveland changed the world.
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Jerry Siegel and Joe Schuster created Superman and with him,
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the entire superhero genre. Published by National Allied Publications, which
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would later become DC Comics, Superman was an instant sensation
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that spawned an entire industry. By nineteen sixty one, d
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C Comics was the under disputed king of the comic
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book world. They had created the template for superheroes with Superman, Batman,
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and wonder Woman. They had successfully reinvented their characters for
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a new generation with the Silver Age versions of The
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Flash and Green Lantern, and they had just launched the
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Justice League of America, proving that team books could be
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massively successful. DC's approach was methodical and professional. They treated
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comics as a business, with editorial oversight, consistent quality control,
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and characters that reflected idealized versions of heroism. Superman was
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essentially perfect, Batman was grimly competent, and wonder Woman embodied
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grace and strength. These were gods among mortals, aspirational figures
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who represented the best of humanity. Meanwhile, across town, a
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small outfit called Atlas Comics was barely surviving. The company
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had been founded by Martin Goodman and was known primarily
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for romance comics, westerns, and monster stories. Their brief foray
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into superheroes in the nineteen fifties had failed miserably, and
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by nineteen sixty one they were down to just eight
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regular titles in a skeleton staff. The company's editor in
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chief was Stanley Lieber, who wrote under the pen name
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stan Lee. Lee had been with the company since nineteen forty,
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when he was just a teenager, and by nineteen sixty
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one he was considering leaving the comic book industry entirely.
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At thirty eight. He felt like he was wasting his
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talent on formulaic stories that no one seemed to care about.
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Everything changed when Goodman noticed how well DC's Justice League
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was selling, in a moment that would reshape popular culture,
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Goodman told Lee to create a superhero team for Atlas Comics,
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which was about to be renamed Marvel Comics. Lee was reluctant.
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They had tried superheroes before, and failed, but his wife
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Joan gave him advice that would change everything. Why don't
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you create the kind of heroes you'd want to read about?
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Lee teamed up with artist Jack Kirby, a veteran creator
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who had co created Captain America in the nineteen forties
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but was now looking for steady work. Together they created
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the Fantastic Four, a team of heroes unlike anything the
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industry had ever seen. These weren't perfect gods like DC's heroes.
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Reid Richards was obsessed with science to the point of
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neglecting his family. Sue Storm was often overlooked and undervalued,
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Johnny Storm was a hothead who acted before thinking, and
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Ben Grimm was literally a monster who hated what he
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had become. They bickered, they made mistakes, and they felt
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like real people with real problems who just happened to
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have superpowers. The Fantastic Four hit news stands in November
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nineteen sixty one, and it was immediately clear that something
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was different about this comic. The heroes argued with each other,
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they had realistic personal problems, and most importantly, they lived
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in the real world, specifically New York City, complete with
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real street names and recognizable landmarks. But Marvel's revolution wasn't
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just about flawed heroes. It was about creating a shared
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universe where actions in one comic affected characters in another.
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When the Hulk rampaged through New York, Spider Man had
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to deal with the aftermath, When the X Men faced discrimination,
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it reflected real world civil rights struggles. Everything was connected
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in a way that DC's compartmentalized heroes weren't. The success
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of the Fantastic Four led to an explosion of creativity.
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Lean Kirby created the Hulk, Thor, Iron Man, and the
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X Men. Leon artist Steve Ditko created Spider Man and
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Doctor Strange. Within five years, Marvel had built a universe
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of interconnected heroes that felt more real and relatable than
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anything DC was publishing. But Marvel's biggest innovation wasn't creative.
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It was promotional. Stan Lee turned himself into the public
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face of the company, writing chatty editorial columns, responding to
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fan letters personally, and treating readers like insiders in the
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Marvel method of storytelling. He gave creators prominent credit on
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splash pages and made fans feel like they were part
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of a community rather than just consumers. DC, meanwhile, maintained
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their traditional approach. Creators were often uncredited, editors maintained strict
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control over storylines, and the company maintained a professional distance
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from fans. They were the establishment, and they were about
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to learn what happens when a young upstart decides to
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challenge the established order. Act two, the Marvel Revolution. By
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nineteen sixty five, Marvel's success was impossible to ignore. The
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Fantastic Four was out selling many of DC's established titles,
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Spider Man had become a cultural phenomenon, The X Men
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were addressing social issues that more conservative editorial approach wouldn't touch,
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and stan Lee was becoming the first celebrity comic book creator,
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appearing on college campuses and television shows to promote Marvel's
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new approach to superhero storytelling. This success bred confidence, and
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confidence bread aggression. In early nineteen sixty six, stan Lee
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wrote a letter column that would establish the template for
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comic book company rivalry for decades to come. Instead of
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simply promoting Marvel's comics, Lee actively disparaged the competition, referring
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to other companies as brand ack and suggesting that marvel
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comics were for intelligent readers, while other companies well weren't
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face it. Lee wrote, Marvel comics are the greatest, and
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if you don't think so, you're probably just not smart
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enough to appreciate them. This was unprecedented. Comic book companies
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had always competed for readers, but they had done so politely,
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without directly attacking each other. Lee's aggressive marketing strategy was
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borrowed from Madison Avenue advertising, where companies routinely trashed their competitors,
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but it had never been done in comics, and it
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established Marvel as the brash, young challenger taking on the
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stuffy establishment. Lee didn't stop there. Marvel launched a parody
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magazine called Not brand Eck that specifically mocked DC characters
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and storylines. They created characters that were obvious parodies of
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DC heroes with names like Stuporman and Bratman, and Lee
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used every letter column and editorial page to remind readers
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that Marvel was the home of the world's greatest comic
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magazine while other companies were stuck in the past. DC's
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response was mostly silence. They were the industry leader, the
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established company with decades of success behind them. They didn't
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feel the need to respond to what they saw as
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juvenile taunts from a upstart competitor. This restraint was probably
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the right business decision, but it had an unintended consequence.
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It made d C look old, stuffy, and out of
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touch compared to Marvel's energetic, irreverent approach. The few times
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d C did respond, it was through subtle digs. In
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their comics. Writer E. Nelson Bridwell had the legion of
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Superhero's Chameleon Boy turn into a giant spider and then
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break the fourth wall to remind readers that he had
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been turning into spiders long before Spider Man existed, But
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these responses were so subtle that most readers missed them entirely. Meanwhile,
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Marvel's sales continued to climb. By nineteen sixty eight, they
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were neck and neck with DC and market share. By
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nineteen seventy two, Marvel had surpassed d C as the
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top selling comic book publisher in America, ending d c's
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thirty year dominance of the industry. The revolution was complete,
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but it came at a cost. The aggressive marketing and
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constant self promotion had created something new in the comic
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book industry, genuine animosity between companies and their creators. What
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had started as business competition was becoming personal. The breaking
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point came in nineteen seventy when Jack Kirby, the co
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creator of most of Marvel's major characters, left the company
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in a bitter dispute over creative control and financial compensation.
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Kirby felt that stan Lee was getting all the credit
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and financial benefits from characters that Kirby believed he had
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created largely on his own. When DC offered him unprecedented
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creative freedom and financial guarantees, Kirby jumped ship to Marvel's
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biggest competitor. It was a move that would turn a
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business rivalry into a personal war Act three Creator Warfare.
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Jack Kirby's departure from Marvel to d C in nineteen
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seventy was more than just a creator changing companies. It
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was a betrayal that cut to the heart of my
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Marvel's success story and exposed the ugly truth about how
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the comic book industry treated its creators. Kirby had been
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the artist behind virtually every major Marvel character created in
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the nineteen sixties, The Fantastic Four, the Hulk, Thor, Iron Man,
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the X Men, the Silver Surfer, and dozens of others
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had all sprung from his imagination in his pencil. But
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as Marvel's success grew and stan Lee became a media celebrity,
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Kirby felt increasingly sidelined and unappreciated. The Marvel method of storytelling,
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where Lee would give Kirby a brief plot outline, and
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Kirby would plot out the entire story in pictures before
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Lee added dialogue, meant that Kirby was doing much of
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the actual storytelling work, but Lee was getting sole writing credit,
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doing all the interviews, and being treated as the creative
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genius behind Marvels success. Worse, Marvel owned all the characters
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that Kirby had co created. He had no financial stake
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in the toys, merchandise, or eventual movie adaptations that would
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generate billions of dollars. He was essentially a freelance artist
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being paid page rates, while the company he had helped
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build became an entertainment empire. When DC offered Kirby his
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own line of comics with full creative control and a
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substantial financial package, he couldn't refuse. But Kirby's move to
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d C wasn't just about money or creative freedom. It
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was about respect. And Jack Kirby was about to show
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the comic book world exactly how he felt about his
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former partner. In nineteen seventy two, Kirby introduced a new
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character in his DC comic Mister Miracle. Funky Flashman was
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ostensibly a minor villain, but anyone familiar with the Marvel
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offices immediately recognized him as a vicious caricature of Stan Lee.
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Flashman was depicted as a slick talking con man who
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took credit for other people's work while living off the
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success of his betters. The character was physically modeled on Lee,
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complete with the mustache and thinning hair. His dialog was
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full of Lee's trademark exclamations and hyperbolic language. Most damning
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of all, Flashman was portrayed as someone who exploited others
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while contributing nothing of value himself. It was a character
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assassination disguised as a comic book villain. Kirby didn't stop there.
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Flashman's sidekick, Houseroy, was clearly meant to be Roy Thomas
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Lee's protege and successor as Marvel's editor in chief. The
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character's name was Colonel Mockingbird, an obvious reference to Martin Goodman,
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Marvel's publisher, Kirby was systematically destroying the reputation of everyone
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he blamed for his treatment at Marvel. The comic book
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industry was shocked. Creators had feuded before, but they had
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done so privately or through subtle references that only insiders
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would understand. This was public character assassination, and it revealed
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the depth of Kirby's bitterness about his time at Marvel.
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Stanley's response was characteristic mostly ignored it. In interviews, Lee
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would acknowledge Kirby's contributions to Marvel, while maintaining that their
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collaborations had been true partnerships. He never publicly responded to
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the funky Flashman character, perhaps recognizing that engaging would only
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give the attack more attention. But privately the attack hurt.
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Lee had genuinely believed that he and Kirby were partners,
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and Kirby's public assault on his character was deeply personal.
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The friendship that had created some of the most beloved
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characters in popular culture was over replaced by a bitterness
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that would last for decades. The Kirby affair also revealed
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something important about the Marvel versus DC rivalry. It wasn't
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just about corporate competition anymore. It was about personal grievances,
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creative control, and the fundamental question of who deserved credit
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for creating the modern superhero genre. DC welcomed Kirby with
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open arms, not just because he was a talented creator,
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but because he was a high profile deffect from their
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main competitor. Marvel, meanwhile, was forced to continue without one
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of their most important creators, a loss that would affect
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the company's creative output for years to come. The war
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between Marvel and DC was no longer just about sales
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figures or market share. It was personal, Act four the
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movie Wars. For decades, the Marvel versus DC rivalry was
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