Work-Life Balance is Overrated | Siqi Chen (father of 2, co-founder/CEO Runway)

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Siqi Chen: I'm like,
college is a waste of time.

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There's a Teal fellowship where
Peter Teal is paying people

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to not even go to college.

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And she's very much like, but
no, they're going to like meet

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people and they're going to be
credentialed and all these things.

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I'm like, who knows if Stanford
is even going to exist in years?

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Adam Fishman: We don't know.

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Welcome to Startup Dad,
the podcast where we dive.

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Deep into the lives of dads
who are also leaders in the

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world of startups and business.

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I'm your host, Adam Fishman.

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In today's conversation,
I sat down with Siqi Chen.

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Siqi is the co founder and CEO of Runway,
the finance platform you don't hate.

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He was also the president, chief
product officer, and CEO of SandboxVR.

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The VP of growth at Postmates and sold
his first company to Zynga in 2010.

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He is an angel investor who has invested
in companies like Touch of Modern,

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Amplitude, Italic, and Clubhouse.

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He's a husband and the
father of two daughters.

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In our conversation today, we spoke
about the idea of work life balance and

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how to accept the reality that work is a
part of life and life is a part of work.

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We talked about sharing the
load with your spouse, how to

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exercise with your kids, and using
technology as a tool for leverage.

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I loved hearing your thoughts.

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How Siki's oldest daughter is
creatively using chat GPT to build

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games and explore her curiosity.

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Siki shared his triumphs and
struggles transparently and openly.

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I hope you enjoy our conversation.

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I would like to welcome Siki
Chen to the Startup Dad podcast.

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Siki, it is a pleasure
having you here today.

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Thank you so much for joining me.

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Thanks for having me.

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I'm so excited to be here today.

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All right.

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We're going to jump right in.

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So first of all, I should say, I did
not know you were a dad until maybe

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you were added or we were both added
to a similar parenting WhatsApp group.

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And then the questions started
coming fast and furious about

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how do you teach your kids this?

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What do you do with this?

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And then I saw on LinkedIn, because
that is my home on the internet, that

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you had written a pretty extensive
and fairly popular post about.

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Work life balance.

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And I want to jump in and talk about that.

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I'm going to read a snippet of it.

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Great.

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And you said, work life
balance is overrated.

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Implicitly having to balance work and
life implies that they're separate things.

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The reality is that work is part of life.

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Life is part of work.

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Once you accept that reality, then you
open up the opportunity to integrate

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the two in a way that serves you
all around, rather than trying to

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trade them off against one another.

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I think that is a profound
assessment of work life balance.

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And so I was excited to talk
to you about this today.

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I feel like there are two
camps on work life balance.

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There's either the camp you are
in, which is like, it's a farce.

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You gotta like figure it out.

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It's work and life.

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They mash together.

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And then there's the other camp, which
is like, Oh, you must achieve the

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mythical balance between the work and
the life and like, there's a clear

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defined lines and things like that.

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So.

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I want to ask you, when did you come
to the realization or the opinion that

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you now hold about work life balance?

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And then how do you do this
integration versus trading them off?

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Siqi Chen: I think it's a mental
model that's crystallized probably

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over the past half a decade or so.

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As I started Runway and I also got
into more exercising than I did before.

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I've been running almost every day and
started boxing and, you know, just to

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break down that quote a little bit, you
know, it's not so much that I'm saying you

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have to work all the time or balance is
not important, but inherent in the divide

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between work and life, The phrase implies
that work is somehow not a part of life.

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And I think like that is to
me sort of a toxic mindset in

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terms of just mental health.

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It's important to spend
time with your family.

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It's important to exercise.

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And It's also important to have a
purpose in life when you're creating

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things with groups of people.

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That's all a part of life.

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And not thinking of them as trade
offs, but thinking about in terms

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of how one feeds into the other, I
find to be a lot more of a mentally

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healthy and balanced mindset to have.

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So for example, if the way you think
about work life balance is that there is

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a trade off between the two, then going
to the gym is a trade off against work.

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But in reality, it isn't.

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A healthy body gives you a healthy
mind and lets you be more productive.

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Spending time with your family, having
great personal relationships versus

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having a very unhealthy marriage.

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Also makes you not very good at work.

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And so it's the word that I have a problem
with and the mindset that word lends to

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that made me come to that realization

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Adam Fishman: and made
me want to write that.

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I love those two examples too.

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The exercise one, and then the having
a good relationship with your spouse.

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I completely agree on both.

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I think the exercise one is
fascinating because I often find

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I do a lot of creative work now,
writing and doing this podcast.

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And I often find that a lot of my
breakthroughs happen when I'm exercising.

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It's like it unlocks
another part of my brain.

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And when I'm not doing
that, I feel less creative.

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I don't feel like I'm tapping
into all those parts of me.

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So fascinating to think about that as
like an enabler versus a, an either or.

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Siqi Chen: And I think the subtle thing is
it goes in the other direction too, right?

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When you think about how you
develop a great work culture and

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who you want to be as a manager.

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You know, you think about, am I
supporting the people I'm working with?

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Am I listening to them?

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And often, for me, I, for a long time,
I realized, wow, am I putting as much

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intention in my relationship with my wife
as I am with the people I'm working with?

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Am I listening?

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Am I supporting?

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Would I have the same conversation that
I would have with my wife if I had the

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same mindset as I had with a report?

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And it goes in both directions too and
I think that's why like treating work

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as a separate thing that you spend time
on in order to earn the capital and

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the right to do other things I think is
inherently not a great mindset to have.

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Adam Fishman: Yeah.

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All right, well I want to go
back in time to Siki as a kid.

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So tell me about what
life was like growing up.

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Where did you grow up?

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What were you like as a kid?

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Siqi Chen: So I had a strange upbringing
in that I grew up in China, so I

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was born there in a northern part of
China called Dalian, and I was raised

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by my grandparents up to age four.

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And my parents were
actually in the States.

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So my dad was the first batch of
students after the Cultural Revolution

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to go to grad school in America.

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He was a physicist.

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And my mom was with him.

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And when I was four, I went to
America with my parents, who I had

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very rarely seen up to that point.

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And so we were in Salt Lake
City and Georgia and in LA as

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my dad worked location change.

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And at eight, my dad didn't
get tenure as a physicist.

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And so he was trying to figure out
how we're going to support the family.

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And so my mom and I, we actually
moved back to China with my extended

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family for four years, apart from
my dad, while he was like, trying

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to figure out how to get a job.

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And he ended up selling shore assorted
order for a time and ultimately

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got a job as a software engineer.

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And four years later,
we moved back with him.

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And so I was 12 when that happened.

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So between zero and 16, every
four years, I was rotating

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between China and United States.

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And at the time, it's just
seemed like when you're a kid,

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that's all, you know, right?

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It was like, this is my life.

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This is what happens.

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It's pretty normal.

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It's only looking back, especially after
you have children, you realize like

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that is a really unusual and strange
upbringing, but that's, that's, that's

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What my early life was like, the one
thing that I remember the most is like

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a single incident was, I remember riding
a tricycle in my grandparents yard,

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I think when I was like three or so.

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And I wanted to go outside of this yard,
and I was like pedaling my tricycle

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going out the door, and I think my
grandparents like closed the door.

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They wouldn't let me out, and I remember
not saying anything, but turning

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around and riding the bicycle the
other direction and right through the

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garden, the vegetable garden they have.

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And they're like, no, no, never
mind, come back, come back,

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and they open the door again.

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I'm like, okay, cool, I'll go outside.

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Somehow that reminds me of a lot of
like what has formed my personality

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over the next few decades.

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Adam Fishman: I was going to say sowing
your entrepreneurial roots, right?

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Right there.

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Well, if you close this door,
I'm just going to open my own.

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I'm going to trample through your garden.

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I love that.

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That is quite a wild, you know,
I mean, like you said, that's

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what you knew as a kid, but.

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Upon reflecting, you know, as an adult
and with your own family, like you

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probably haven't moved your family every
four years, clear across the world,

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back and forth and a lot of, you know,
popular reading would say, Hey, those are

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pretty formative years of a kid's life.

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Like that's a lot of disruption
and change and things like that.

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But.

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You seem to have turned out just fine.

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Uh, as far as I can tell
in this podcast, at least

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Siqi Chen: I'm doing all right.

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You know, like I think my
parents feel proud of where I am.

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I feel pretty good about where I've been.

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Life could be better, could be worse.

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Right.

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But yeah, I think that does make
you think, especially after you have

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children, they have a very different life.

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It is in almost every way.

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So it's actually more
comfortable and usual and normal.

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And to what extent is like that good?

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Yeah.

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Right.

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You know, there is a lot of very
successful people who have like,

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great childhoods, and then there
are successful people who are like,

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motivated by childhood trauma that's
haunted them for many, many years.

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Right?

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Like, you know, it must be
like our most famous example.

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It does make you think.

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But I think that perspective
is helpful, right?

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You realize that it's okay.

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Like you can really mess things up and
they'll turn out the way they turn out.

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So it gives us a sense of equanimity when

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Adam Fishman: you're a

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Siqi Chen: parent.

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Adam Fishman: That's a good
philosophy and approach to have.

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So you do have a partner and
two kids, which I alluded to.

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How old are your kids and how
many times should they have moved

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back and forth to China by now?

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Siqi Chen: Uh, two and
one times, respectively.

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But yeah, I have two daughters.

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I have a daughter named Alessandra,
who's nine and our younger one is Mira

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and she's four and yeah, and I have a
partner, Yi Ding, and she is an investor,

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a stay at home mom, but in past life,
she was an actress and a movie producer.

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And we met in between those jobs.

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So how did the two of you meet?

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And I guess where?

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In the club is my usual answer,
but it was in the actual club.

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That's the cool answer.

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The less cool answer is it
was at an event at a club at

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the game developer conference.

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Adam Fishman: That is a decidedly
less cool answer, but I'll

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Siqi Chen: allow it.

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So I was a game developer conference and
I just sold my first company to Zynga.

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And she was.

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Gonna host the Chinese
version of The Apprentice.

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And so we got introduced through a
bunch of friends independently, like

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three or four different friends that
night said, Hey, you should meet so.

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And so, and we met and she told me she
wanted to build a game for this Chinese

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version of princess who's going to host.

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And I said, I'll do it.

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I worked for Zynga.

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00:12:19,005 --> 00:12:20,435
I'm like really good at games.

233
00:12:20,435 --> 00:12:22,385
I wasn't going to do it, but
she was like really cute.

234
00:12:23,625 --> 00:12:25,855
And that's how we met
the best story about.

235
00:12:26,370 --> 00:12:30,760
That moment in time was, you know,
one of our first conversations,

236
00:12:30,770 --> 00:12:35,120
so we started talking about pets
and she told me how she had a dog.

237
00:12:35,300 --> 00:12:37,480
And this dog had a really funny name.

238
00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:39,050
It was a German shepherd named cat.

239
00:12:40,319 --> 00:12:44,250
And I said, that is an
adorable name for a dog.

240
00:12:44,899 --> 00:12:48,050
And I told her, you know, I have a
cat and she's like, what's her name?

241
00:12:48,050 --> 00:12:49,300
I'm like, I named her dog.

242
00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:53,860
And then she's like, no way.

243
00:12:54,070 --> 00:12:57,250
So my friend walks over and I said,
Mary, what's the name of my cat?

244
00:12:57,280 --> 00:12:57,760
She goes, dog.

245
00:13:00,110 --> 00:13:00,700
True story.

246
00:13:00,850 --> 00:13:03,870
Adam Fishman: And did you
actually have a cat named dog?

247
00:13:03,980 --> 00:13:08,959
Siqi Chen: No, I mean, my, my friend,
Mary, who was walking by, I asked her

248
00:13:09,059 --> 00:13:10,339
unprompted, what's the name of my cat?

249
00:13:10,370 --> 00:13:12,620
She goes, dog, because that
was the name of my cat.

250
00:13:14,450 --> 00:13:15,070
Adam Fishman: Wow.

251
00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:15,920
This is amazing.

252
00:13:15,930 --> 00:13:20,620
This is like, There never were a more
perfect union than that situation.

253
00:13:20,620 --> 00:13:21,449
What are the odds?

254
00:13:21,540 --> 00:13:28,480
Game developers conference, apprentice,
you, uh, first time selling your company

255
00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:31,310
to Zynga, cat named dog, dog named cat.

256
00:13:31,780 --> 00:13:33,389
I mean, it's amazing.

257
00:13:33,639 --> 00:13:34,429
What a match.

258
00:13:34,839 --> 00:13:35,239
So.

259
00:13:35,550 --> 00:13:38,839
What was the decision like for
the two of you to start a family?

260
00:13:39,939 --> 00:13:42,780
Siqi Chen: I don't know that it
was a decision that was made.

261
00:13:42,870 --> 00:13:43,270
Adam Fishman: Okay.

262
00:13:43,430 --> 00:13:47,849
Siqi Chen: We wanted to
get married and we did.

263
00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:50,860
We ended up having three weddings, but
of course it'll be a year and a half.

264
00:13:51,519 --> 00:13:55,619
And after the wedding, we decided
that, yeah, we want to have kids.

265
00:13:55,630 --> 00:13:56,589
So we're going to start.

266
00:13:56,599 --> 00:13:58,419
And it happened very quickly.

267
00:13:58,619 --> 00:14:01,919
It happened, I think like nine
months after the wedding date.

268
00:14:02,569 --> 00:14:05,329
And I don't know that I was like
much of a conversation decision.

269
00:14:05,329 --> 00:14:06,939
It's like something that we.

270
00:14:07,465 --> 00:14:09,975
Kind of knew that we were going
to do after we got married.

271
00:14:10,315 --> 00:14:13,335
In retrospect, it probably should
have been more of a conversation.

272
00:14:14,625 --> 00:14:15,595
And why do you say that?

273
00:14:15,785 --> 00:14:21,455
I don't know that we were
communicating and being as prepared

274
00:14:21,455 --> 00:14:23,005
as we needed to be as parents.

275
00:14:23,625 --> 00:14:26,599
It just kind of seemed like the
next thing that you do in life.

276
00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:29,490
You know, you meet somebody,
you get married, you have kids.

277
00:14:30,650 --> 00:14:34,530
I don't think we really like talked
through, okay, how is this going to work?

278
00:14:34,580 --> 00:14:36,110
What are the expectations?

279
00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:39,900
And so we probably should have
had like more of a conversation

280
00:14:39,900 --> 00:14:44,559
because when we discover that he was
pregnant, it was like, wait, wait,

281
00:14:45,370 --> 00:14:47,309
we didn't expect it to be that quick.

282
00:14:47,350 --> 00:14:48,179
Oh my God.

283
00:14:48,269 --> 00:14:48,669
Right.

284
00:14:49,049 --> 00:14:50,939
But you're never prepared for your first.

285
00:14:51,029 --> 00:14:54,180
And I think my impression though,
is that most parents have been

286
00:14:54,180 --> 00:14:57,040
more intentional than we were
about that particular decision.

287
00:14:57,520 --> 00:14:58,280
Adam Fishman: It's interesting.

288
00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:00,750
And we're going to get into
some of that, some of what you

289
00:15:00,750 --> 00:15:03,290
do now around intentionality.

290
00:15:03,730 --> 00:15:09,850
But I have heard many founders come on
this show and talk about their company.

291
00:15:10,270 --> 00:15:15,319
As their other kid, in your
case, your third kid is runway.

292
00:15:15,750 --> 00:15:22,919
Now you don't strike me as a passive dad
that is only prioritizing that third kid.

293
00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:23,540
Right?

294
00:15:23,540 --> 00:15:26,689
So you do strike me as
someone who's fairly involved.

295
00:15:26,709 --> 00:15:30,700
You know, we've had some exchanges
about education and various other

296
00:15:30,700 --> 00:15:31,930
things in our parenting groups.

297
00:15:32,199 --> 00:15:37,339
So how do you and your wife load
balance the parenting responsibilities?

298
00:15:37,785 --> 00:15:40,705
In your house, I imagine that is
something that you eventually had

299
00:15:40,715 --> 00:15:47,085
to talk about and very likely after
pregnancy, but yeah, how do you two

300
00:15:47,105 --> 00:15:47,654
Siqi Chen: sort it out?

301
00:15:48,064 --> 00:15:53,395
I would say not so well for quite
a while, and this is like probably

302
00:15:53,425 --> 00:15:54,855
the biggest lesson learned.

303
00:15:54,864 --> 00:15:56,804
So this is nine years ago, right?

304
00:15:56,824 --> 00:16:00,725
And I was much younger than, and we
were not prepared and I was running

305
00:16:00,725 --> 00:16:01,915
a different startup at the time.

306
00:16:02,365 --> 00:16:04,645
And I think one of the
traps to get into is.

307
00:16:05,225 --> 00:16:08,725
You know, she gave up her career and
decided to become a stay at home mom.

308
00:16:08,755 --> 00:16:09,935
I had a start up run.

309
00:16:10,385 --> 00:16:14,335
And there is some level of, like,
inevitable feeling of, like, this

310
00:16:14,365 --> 00:16:19,574
undertone of entitlement that you
have as a husband where, okay,

311
00:16:19,574 --> 00:16:22,804
well, she stays home and she's
going to take care of the kids.

312
00:16:22,805 --> 00:16:25,015
And I have a start up and it's
like more than a full time job.

313
00:16:25,085 --> 00:16:26,165
It's going to spend a lot of time there.

314
00:16:26,275 --> 00:16:28,335
So, you know, I get to do the fun stuff.

315
00:16:28,425 --> 00:16:32,034
And that doesn't work, as you can
probably imagine, like, unsurprisingly.

316
00:16:33,375 --> 00:16:37,405
And so, You know, for me, the way
we've divided it up now is like

317
00:16:37,415 --> 00:16:39,455
almost every day or every other day.

318
00:16:39,585 --> 00:16:43,294
I take my older out for
a one to two hour run.

319
00:16:43,345 --> 00:16:45,855
And that's like one of the things
that we spend the most time on.

320
00:16:46,444 --> 00:16:47,354
And that's great.

321
00:16:47,365 --> 00:16:48,344
It's like part of life.

322
00:16:48,695 --> 00:16:49,684
Exercise is part of life.

323
00:16:49,684 --> 00:16:54,435
It's great for the company, but I get
to spend amazing time with my older one.

324
00:16:54,464 --> 00:16:56,425
I mean, we're running five
or six miles at a time.

325
00:16:56,425 --> 00:16:57,175
She loves it.

326
00:16:57,795 --> 00:16:58,885
That's one way we do it.

327
00:16:59,245 --> 00:17:00,425
And the other thing is.

328
00:17:00,910 --> 00:17:02,110
Dinner is sacrosanct.

329
00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:06,169
It's on my calendar and the
requirement from the week read

330
00:17:06,169 --> 00:17:07,849
to is five out of seven days.

331
00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:11,660
Like clockwork, we're going to have
like dinner and the other two days.

332
00:17:11,660 --> 00:17:11,839
Yeah.

333
00:17:11,839 --> 00:17:15,629
You get to like have a meeting or, you
know, go out and have dinner, but five

334
00:17:15,629 --> 00:17:17,300
out of seven days, that's the expectation.

335
00:17:17,709 --> 00:17:17,929
Yeah.

336
00:17:17,959 --> 00:17:18,619
That's a big one.

337
00:17:18,629 --> 00:17:20,429
And then outside of that education.

338
00:17:20,970 --> 00:17:23,220
What are the things that our kids
are going to do outside of class?

339
00:17:23,220 --> 00:17:24,109
How are they going to learn?

340
00:17:24,120 --> 00:17:25,260
What classes are they going to take?

341
00:17:25,380 --> 00:17:27,950
That is split, I think,
fairly evenly between the two.

342
00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:32,229
So she does a lot of the writing and
extracurriculars and for things like,

343
00:17:32,740 --> 00:17:35,470
oh, writing and reading and AI and math.

344
00:17:35,900 --> 00:17:36,959
Adam Fishman: That's a lot of me.

345
00:17:37,385 --> 00:17:42,585
I love that you've identified very
explicit things and activities

346
00:17:42,585 --> 00:17:43,715
and actions that you do.

347
00:17:43,715 --> 00:17:46,875
And the dinner being
sacrosanct is a good one.

348
00:17:47,014 --> 00:17:51,194
And then even down to having a defined
number of days, five out of seven, because

349
00:17:51,204 --> 00:17:54,554
it is, I think a little unrealistic
when you're building a company to say,

350
00:17:54,554 --> 00:17:56,729
you know what, seven out of seven days.

351
00:17:57,010 --> 00:17:58,340
I'm going to be able to be home.

352
00:17:58,470 --> 00:17:59,800
Nothing's going to come up.

353
00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:01,640
There's not going to be an investor.

354
00:18:01,650 --> 00:18:05,610
There's not going to be a recruit
that I have to hire, but you know, you

355
00:18:05,610 --> 00:18:07,730
can plan around those couple of days.

356
00:18:07,850 --> 00:18:08,259
Siqi Chen: Yeah.

357
00:18:08,259 --> 00:18:10,450
To be sure that hasn't
been always a case though.

358
00:18:10,700 --> 00:18:11,290
And.

359
00:18:11,915 --> 00:18:16,875
One of the things that trigger this is I
am not a person who actually eats a lot.

360
00:18:17,195 --> 00:18:19,014
For a while I was only eating on weekends.

361
00:18:19,504 --> 00:18:19,865
Wow.

362
00:18:19,954 --> 00:18:22,095
So actually there were like no meal times.

363
00:18:22,095 --> 00:18:26,215
And I just remember our child saying
like, Hey, is it normal that we don't

364
00:18:26,215 --> 00:18:27,735
eat together as a family as often?

365
00:18:28,345 --> 00:18:31,530
And I thought it was like, It was
normal for me when I was growing up.

366
00:18:32,050 --> 00:18:33,480
Yeah, but it's not normal.

367
00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:34,440
It shouldn't be normal.

368
00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:35,850
And that's when we made a change.

369
00:18:36,100 --> 00:18:36,730
Adam Fishman: Well, that's good.

370
00:18:36,730 --> 00:18:41,390
And good on your kid for pointing that
out and asking the question, probably

371
00:18:41,390 --> 00:18:47,170
not from a place of, you know, accusation
or anything, but curiosity like kids.

372
00:18:47,820 --> 00:18:48,430
So, right.

373
00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:53,989
Aside from shock and surprise, what
is the earliest memory that you have?

374
00:18:56,665 --> 00:18:57,965
I mean, it's the moment

375
00:18:58,225 --> 00:19:00,565
Siqi Chen: you pull
them for the first time.

376
00:19:00,975 --> 00:19:01,405
Mm hmm.

377
00:19:01,585 --> 00:19:05,144
Small, delicate, you're
like, wow, this is it.

378
00:19:05,765 --> 00:19:10,544
But the thing I actually remember,
to be completely transparent, is the

379
00:19:10,555 --> 00:19:12,115
first time going to the supermarket.

380
00:19:12,725 --> 00:19:13,215
Okay.

381
00:19:13,634 --> 00:19:16,924
So you're in a hospital, and
you're not sleeping, and you're

382
00:19:16,954 --> 00:19:18,464
trying to get them to latch.

383
00:19:19,030 --> 00:19:19,480
Right.

384
00:19:19,950 --> 00:19:24,960
And it's like two or three days into
this, you decide, okay, well we need

385
00:19:24,990 --> 00:19:30,579
to go to the nearest Safeway, or no,
it's Rowley's in Millbrae, and we

386
00:19:30,579 --> 00:19:32,849
need to go get a snack and drink run.

387
00:19:33,390 --> 00:19:39,550
And being there and feeling like,
this feels the exact way I feel like

388
00:19:39,550 --> 00:19:40,879
if I'm in the Maldives or something.

389
00:19:42,100 --> 00:19:45,940
This half an hour was like,
oh wow, this is vacation.

390
00:19:45,950 --> 00:19:46,970
This is incredible.

391
00:19:47,050 --> 00:19:50,819
I've never experienced this
selection of goods before.

392
00:19:51,399 --> 00:19:54,199
The other thing I'll remember, and
it's actually weirdly all shopping

393
00:19:54,199 --> 00:19:58,010
related, is, you know there's
this store called Bye Bye Baby?

394
00:19:58,354 --> 00:19:58,874
Oh, yeah.

395
00:19:59,364 --> 00:20:02,405
So, we went before the baby came,
and we're looking around, and

396
00:20:02,405 --> 00:20:03,394
it's like, what is all this crap?

397
00:20:04,445 --> 00:20:06,880
And then, we went a few months
after, we looked at everything, and

398
00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:09,844
it's like, wow, we need everything.

399
00:20:12,665 --> 00:20:15,825
Everything is amazing, I'm so
glad someone invented something.

400
00:20:15,885 --> 00:20:20,784
But yeah, I think, uh, more seriously,
holding your kid for the first time.

401
00:20:21,524 --> 00:20:25,645
And the other thing is, like, you
kind of get a sense of personality.

402
00:20:26,435 --> 00:20:31,264
That first time you hold your kid and
you can draw a through line between the

403
00:20:31,274 --> 00:20:35,125
personality you're picking up that first
day to how they ended up as they grow up.

404
00:20:35,675 --> 00:20:42,525
My first kid was like extremely loud and
she grew up to be like really outspoken.

405
00:20:43,205 --> 00:20:49,235
And the second one is a lot calmer,
just like looking around, just unfazed.

406
00:20:49,275 --> 00:20:52,455
And that's how she ended up,
you know, at four years old.

407
00:20:52,455 --> 00:20:52,985
So it's really

408
00:20:53,125 --> 00:20:53,475
Adam Fishman: interesting.

409
00:20:53,594 --> 00:20:54,685
That is pretty amazing.

410
00:20:54,695 --> 00:20:56,085
I'm trying to think back to my kids.

411
00:20:56,145 --> 00:20:57,034
That's probably true.

412
00:20:57,045 --> 00:20:57,065
Yeah.

413
00:20:58,014 --> 00:21:01,705
And neither one of my kids slept very
much, so, and they don't really know.

414
00:21:02,084 --> 00:21:05,824
What are the most surprising things
that you've discovered as a dad?

415
00:21:06,475 --> 00:21:09,775
Siqi Chen: How it changes your own
perspective of how you grew up.

416
00:21:10,254 --> 00:21:15,054
I remember when my dad came to
visit, and like, that's when I

417
00:21:15,314 --> 00:21:19,145
realized, oh yeah, I didn't remember
this, but that's really different.

418
00:21:19,514 --> 00:21:22,165
He was holding our second one,
and he was like, I've never

419
00:21:22,175 --> 00:21:24,980
held a child this young before.

420
00:21:25,890 --> 00:21:29,030
And I'm like, Oh shit, that's right.

421
00:21:29,030 --> 00:21:29,510
You have been.

422
00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:31,430
That's crazy.

423
00:21:32,030 --> 00:21:36,220
I think like the most surprising thing
is how much you reflect on how your

424
00:21:36,230 --> 00:21:39,230
childhood is a different and like
how it puts things into perspective.

425
00:21:39,589 --> 00:21:41,020
It's probably the most surprising thing.

426
00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:44,210
Outside of that, I don't know.

427
00:21:44,229 --> 00:21:46,890
Like, I don't know that there's
like anything that's surprising

428
00:21:46,890 --> 00:21:50,410
because we did a bunch of reading
and research ahead of the baby.

429
00:21:50,410 --> 00:21:54,400
But I think the general thing
that we weren't surprised by is.

430
00:21:54,820 --> 00:21:55,540
They end up fine.

431
00:21:55,730 --> 00:21:57,200
You don't have to worry
too much about them.

432
00:21:57,220 --> 00:21:58,640
They're designed to survive.

433
00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:05,000
Yeah, but I think as they grew up though
as they get older the thing that surprises

434
00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:10,720
me is how quickly they learn Everything
in particular like our older one.

435
00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:19,639
She got into running so early And she
got so into it and same with skiing too,

436
00:22:19,750 --> 00:22:24,139
like it's, I'm 40 years old and I got in
skiing me like 10 years ago and she was

437
00:22:24,139 --> 00:22:27,429
going down a double black or like her,
you know, her 20th time down a mountain

438
00:22:27,449 --> 00:22:29,060
and took me down my first double black.

439
00:22:29,110 --> 00:22:30,539
So they learned so fast.

440
00:22:31,030 --> 00:22:31,229
Adam Fishman: Those

441
00:22:31,229 --> 00:22:32,409
Siqi Chen: are things that
you don't expect, right?

442
00:22:32,409 --> 00:22:36,304
You go from like one year where they
can barely like stand up on her skis.

443
00:22:36,695 --> 00:22:40,055
And the next year they're like going down
the double blacks and leaving me behind.

444
00:22:40,115 --> 00:22:42,505
That's somewhat

445
00:22:42,625 --> 00:22:43,625
Adam Fishman: motivating and scary.

446
00:22:43,785 --> 00:22:47,424
Your daughter also has the advantage
of having a low center of gravity.

447
00:22:47,705 --> 00:22:48,525
This is true.

448
00:22:48,765 --> 00:22:50,493
Which, you know, helps her
bomb down that mountain.

449
00:22:50,493 --> 00:22:51,406
That helps a lot.

450
00:22:51,406 --> 00:22:52,245
That helps a lot.

451
00:22:52,285 --> 00:22:54,544
That is an amazing
couple of insights there.

452
00:22:54,645 --> 00:22:55,875
How quickly they learn.

453
00:22:55,914 --> 00:22:59,405
It's kind of fun to watch kids
learn and experience the world

454
00:22:59,405 --> 00:23:00,805
and get good at something too.

455
00:23:00,805 --> 00:23:03,625
And I'm glad that the two of you
found running as a thing that

456
00:23:03,625 --> 00:23:06,385
you can do together as sort of
like a side by side activity.

457
00:23:06,875 --> 00:23:09,605
So you mentioned that you weren't
surprised by that many things

458
00:23:09,605 --> 00:23:11,065
because you did a lot of reading.

459
00:23:11,335 --> 00:23:17,054
If you could rewind the clock and
give your younger self some advice,

460
00:23:17,675 --> 00:23:19,815
what would you say to younger Siki?

461
00:23:20,175 --> 00:23:21,974
Every time I think about
this, I feel like I don't

462
00:23:21,974 --> 00:23:22,955
Siqi Chen: want to tell him anything.

463
00:23:23,175 --> 00:23:24,105
Let him figure it out.

464
00:23:24,345 --> 00:23:25,144
It could have been better.

465
00:23:25,144 --> 00:23:28,445
It could have been worse, but it's one
of those things where I do have this

466
00:23:28,445 --> 00:23:32,585
perspective about life where you'll
learn just as much from bad experiences,

467
00:23:32,585 --> 00:23:33,915
probably more than the good ones.

468
00:23:34,264 --> 00:23:34,645
Yeah.

469
00:23:34,754 --> 00:23:35,685
And so like.

470
00:23:36,620 --> 00:23:41,060
All of the great advice are in books,
and I could like shortcut that advice and

471
00:23:41,129 --> 00:23:47,629
give it directly, but there is value in
experience, and I didn't value experience

472
00:23:47,629 --> 00:23:49,129
when I didn't have any experience.

473
00:23:49,850 --> 00:23:52,689
But now that I have it, I realize
that that's actually really valuable.

474
00:23:53,210 --> 00:23:57,580
But if I could rewind time to one time,
it would probably be the first couple

475
00:23:57,580 --> 00:24:03,810
of weeks after our first child, and
the message was like, They'll be fine.

476
00:24:04,389 --> 00:24:08,189
And you have to remember that
they're not always a potato

477
00:24:08,189 --> 00:24:09,449
that eats, shits, and sleeps.

478
00:24:10,090 --> 00:24:16,590
At some point, they'll, very quickly,
they'll walk and crawl and talk

479
00:24:16,690 --> 00:24:22,459
and be really, really fun and the
investment and return curve crosses.

480
00:24:23,120 --> 00:24:26,379
And sooner than, cause like the
first few months, for me, I don't

481
00:24:26,379 --> 00:24:29,820
know, I, I, I think this is not
a popular like experience, but

482
00:24:29,820 --> 00:24:30,699
I'll just tell it like it is.

483
00:24:30,699 --> 00:24:33,560
Like I, I thought it was, it wasn't great.

484
00:24:34,919 --> 00:24:38,360
It's just a lot of work and I'm
like, this is not that interesting.

485
00:24:38,429 --> 00:24:42,240
I'm like, I'm not getting the same
joy as like looking at a baby as I

486
00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:46,219
do looking at my four year old nine
year old and you know, plenty of that

487
00:24:46,219 --> 00:24:47,520
saying, Oh, it's the most natural thing.

488
00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:48,199
It wasn't for me.

489
00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:49,579
And maybe I'm weird,

490
00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:51,829
Adam Fishman: but I don't think you are.

491
00:24:51,859 --> 00:24:53,860
I hear that sentiment a
lot from a lot of dads.

492
00:24:53,860 --> 00:24:55,700
I think that's a common dad feeling.

493
00:24:56,235 --> 00:24:58,004
We can normalize that here on the show.

494
00:24:58,235 --> 00:25:00,314
Siqi Chen: Yeah, yeah, I mean,
like I just want to, yeah, I

495
00:25:00,314 --> 00:25:01,595
feel like it's good to be honest.

496
00:25:01,595 --> 00:25:05,235
Like I just, I feel like somewhat
insecure when it was like, Oh, wow.

497
00:25:05,235 --> 00:25:10,734
The first time I'm like, you know, every
time I look at my potato, I'm like,

498
00:25:11,974 --> 00:25:16,014
OK, you know, maybe there's something
broken about me, but I don't care.

499
00:25:16,014 --> 00:25:17,665
I'll just like tell
you exactly how I feel.

500
00:25:17,665 --> 00:25:20,725
But, you know, as they become more
expressive, I just can have like

501
00:25:20,734 --> 00:25:22,734
even a nonverbal conversation.

502
00:25:23,134 --> 00:25:23,545
Yeah.

503
00:25:23,545 --> 00:25:26,095
With this being, you're like, Oh, okay.

504
00:25:26,345 --> 00:25:27,445
That's pretty magical.

505
00:25:27,774 --> 00:25:28,024
Yeah.

506
00:25:28,054 --> 00:25:28,395
Yeah.

507
00:25:28,405 --> 00:25:29,074
This is great.

508
00:25:29,175 --> 00:25:29,614
Adam Fishman: Yeah.

509
00:25:29,925 --> 00:25:31,785
I love the potato analogy.

510
00:25:32,075 --> 00:25:35,834
I often say that young babies all
look like Winston Churchill, you

511
00:25:35,834 --> 00:25:37,365
know, kind of like wrinkly neck.

512
00:25:37,365 --> 00:25:38,350
Grumpy.

513
00:25:38,350 --> 00:25:39,334
Yeah.

514
00:25:39,335 --> 00:25:39,665
Grumpy.

515
00:25:40,155 --> 00:25:40,535
Yeah.

516
00:25:40,555 --> 00:25:41,095
That's right.

517
00:25:41,534 --> 00:25:44,605
If you could go back, and I'm
sure you got peppered with

518
00:25:44,605 --> 00:25:46,819
advice yourself as you were Yeah.

519
00:25:47,500 --> 00:25:51,020
You know, becoming a father,
about to become a father.

520
00:25:51,389 --> 00:25:54,600
Is there any particular piece of advice
that you would go back in time and

521
00:25:54,600 --> 00:26:00,815
just like put up the stop sign, tell
yourself like, Don't listen to this.

522
00:26:01,145 --> 00:26:02,355
This is useless.

523
00:26:02,695 --> 00:26:04,555
Set that one out to pasture.

524
00:26:04,815 --> 00:26:05,465
Siqi Chen: Okay.

525
00:26:05,535 --> 00:26:09,814
I mean, the biggest change between
the first one and second one, and I

526
00:26:09,815 --> 00:26:14,145
imagine it's pretty common, is like,
you're no longer thinking about them,

527
00:26:14,155 --> 00:26:16,505
like, literally dying every hour.

528
00:26:17,695 --> 00:26:18,145
Yep.

529
00:26:18,615 --> 00:26:18,945
Right?

530
00:26:18,955 --> 00:26:23,715
Like, I think that's the thing that
You hear, but you start to internalize

531
00:26:23,765 --> 00:26:24,865
because you're just paranoid.

532
00:26:24,865 --> 00:26:26,814
Like, what if they stop breathing?

533
00:26:27,375 --> 00:26:31,495
Oh my God, I need to get the wearable,
like, you know, ankle bracelet to make

534
00:26:31,495 --> 00:26:35,515
sure, you know, you got to get a camera
and check on them like every half an hour

535
00:26:36,165 --> 00:26:43,044
and that's not how these beings work, you
know, like they're designed to survive and

536
00:26:43,054 --> 00:26:47,215
they'll let you know loudly if you're not
doing a good job and it turned out okay.

537
00:26:47,215 --> 00:26:49,085
So you don't have to like be.

538
00:26:51,175 --> 00:26:53,315
Constantly oppressively
just paranoid about this.

539
00:26:53,524 --> 00:26:53,715
Right.

540
00:26:53,715 --> 00:26:57,225
That's like probably the most mentally
draining part of being a first time

541
00:26:57,225 --> 00:27:00,865
dad that if I could short circuit
with some words, I would try to.

542
00:27:00,995 --> 00:27:05,045
Adam Fishman: In an early startup dad
episode, I had Darius contractor on

543
00:27:05,045 --> 00:27:09,245
who you probably know or know of, and
he talked about like buying some sort

544
00:27:09,245 --> 00:27:15,725
of super fancy technology thing for
detecting SIDS or whatever in his kid.

545
00:27:15,725 --> 00:27:19,050
And he was like, It was
the most incredibly useless

546
00:27:19,060 --> 00:27:20,490
like piece of technology.

547
00:27:20,490 --> 00:27:21,990
Like don't buy that.

548
00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:25,619
Siqi Chen: It was, I think it was a
Nanette or maybe that sounds right.

549
00:27:25,620 --> 00:27:26,230
Yeah.

550
00:27:26,390 --> 00:27:29,520
And also like you, when you're in that
position, you're like, Oh, I could

551
00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:32,929
think of all kinds of, uh, new startups
to build just for the new demographic.

552
00:27:32,930 --> 00:27:33,660
No, now a part of

553
00:27:33,990 --> 00:27:34,279
Adam Fishman: like a

554
00:27:34,279 --> 00:27:35,640
Siqi Chen: wearable for babies,

555
00:27:35,820 --> 00:27:36,200
Adam Fishman: right?

556
00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:37,080
Exactly.

557
00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:39,790
Well, because as you know, new
parents will buy just about anything.

558
00:27:39,790 --> 00:27:40,280
Oh my God.

559
00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:43,740
They can like, like you mentioned,
walking into bye bye baby.

560
00:27:43,980 --> 00:27:44,460
Yeah.

561
00:27:44,879 --> 00:27:46,220
What is your.

562
00:27:46,590 --> 00:27:48,050
Favorite book to

563
00:27:48,050 --> 00:27:48,909
Siqi Chen: read to your kids?

564
00:27:49,340 --> 00:27:53,860
Um, the books that we just read over and
over again, it's not my favorite, but

565
00:27:54,370 --> 00:27:56,020
I'm sure you know, the blub blub fish.

566
00:27:56,770 --> 00:27:58,240
I don't know if I actually do.

567
00:27:58,270 --> 00:27:58,870
Really?

568
00:27:58,949 --> 00:28:04,599
Blub blub fish is just a fish who is a
really grumpy fish who goes blub, blub,

569
00:28:05,060 --> 00:28:08,470
blub, and then you meet the octopus.

570
00:28:09,725 --> 00:28:14,675
And the octopus says hello and
the blub blub fish goes blub blub

571
00:28:14,775 --> 00:28:15,715
Adam Fishman: blub.

572
00:28:17,105 --> 00:28:18,315
I see where this is going.

573
00:28:18,765 --> 00:28:19,025
Cool.

574
00:28:19,025 --> 00:28:20,765
I will check out the blub blub fish.

575
00:28:20,815 --> 00:28:21,015
We

576
00:28:21,015 --> 00:28:22,875
Siqi Chen: have like four
different copies of it.

577
00:28:22,915 --> 00:28:27,525
We have top cover, hardcover,
like large format, small format.

578
00:28:27,815 --> 00:28:28,945
I don't know how we ended up with so many

579
00:28:28,955 --> 00:28:30,705
Adam Fishman: copies of the
same book, but they love it.

580
00:28:30,895 --> 00:28:32,345
Have you memorized this book?

581
00:28:32,365 --> 00:28:34,885
Can you like do it where you're
not even looking at the page and

582
00:28:34,885 --> 00:28:36,305
your brain is just elsewhere?

583
00:28:36,305 --> 00:28:36,474
I cannot.

584
00:28:36,475 --> 00:28:37,995
Well, I mean, half the book

585
00:28:38,015 --> 00:28:38,825
Siqi Chen: is blub blub.

586
00:28:41,665 --> 00:28:45,125
And you know, when you get to that
part, like it gets a laugh, no

587
00:28:45,125 --> 00:28:46,495
matter how they are every time.

588
00:28:46,495 --> 00:28:48,845
So it's kind of an addictive
experience for the kids.

589
00:28:48,955 --> 00:28:49,805
Adam Fishman: That's pretty great.

590
00:28:50,015 --> 00:28:51,485
That's a funny thing
that you mentioned too.

591
00:28:51,574 --> 00:28:56,964
Kids find the things that
we do so hilarious, right?

592
00:28:56,964 --> 00:28:59,955
Like you are probably like,
yeah, blah, blah, fish.

593
00:29:00,075 --> 00:29:00,755
I'm over it.

594
00:29:01,190 --> 00:29:04,720
But it's every time you do that
for your kids, it's like they're

595
00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:08,420
hearing it the first time and they
probably just like go bananas.

596
00:29:08,470 --> 00:29:14,679
So have you developed any particular
frameworks or guardrails for parenting?

597
00:29:15,219 --> 00:29:16,620
What is language acquisition?

598
00:29:17,569 --> 00:29:21,069
Siqi Chen: So, you know, we are
a bilingual household, right?

599
00:29:21,140 --> 00:29:24,129
We speak Chinese and English and.

600
00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:28,770
For our first kid, I think one of the
pieces of advice we got from one of

601
00:29:28,770 --> 00:29:32,199
our friends is you should have the
mommy language and the daddy language.

602
00:29:32,999 --> 00:29:34,829
So one parent should
always speak one language.

603
00:29:34,829 --> 00:29:36,780
Other parents always
speak the other language.

604
00:29:37,379 --> 00:29:39,459
Just kind of did that for our first child.

605
00:29:39,459 --> 00:29:42,669
And she's okay in both languages.

606
00:29:43,460 --> 00:29:45,940
What really got her better in
Chinese is just like having

607
00:29:45,940 --> 00:29:47,120
her go to China for a summer.

608
00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:50,840
She came back forgetting like a bunch
of her English and it was like five.

609
00:29:51,630 --> 00:29:52,330
Or six.

610
00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:54,570
But for a second child, we're actually
doing it completely differently.

611
00:29:55,620 --> 00:29:58,460
Our second child is four now and she
barely speaks any English at all.

612
00:29:58,950 --> 00:29:59,250
Wow.

613
00:29:59,290 --> 00:30:01,950
And up to like last year,
she spoke no English at all.

614
00:30:02,595 --> 00:30:05,035
The reason we did that is we realized
that they're just going to pick

615
00:30:05,035 --> 00:30:06,225
up the language of where you live.

616
00:30:07,245 --> 00:30:10,285
So actually the right thing to do is
just like focus on the other language.

617
00:30:10,895 --> 00:30:13,475
And yeah, so her Chinese
is really, really good.

618
00:30:13,494 --> 00:30:17,195
And it is hilarious because she's
like this three year old who lives in

619
00:30:17,205 --> 00:30:21,535
America with the strongest like Chinese
accent when she speaks in English ever.

620
00:30:21,535 --> 00:30:25,105
It's hilarious.

621
00:30:25,155 --> 00:30:25,605
Yeah.

622
00:30:25,875 --> 00:30:26,905
So that's one.

623
00:30:27,475 --> 00:30:30,954
And the other one is like
exercise obviously, but it's a.

624
00:30:31,565 --> 00:30:34,855
I mean, I think it's like one of
the great attacks if you can get

625
00:30:34,855 --> 00:30:39,525
your kids who really love running
and we were lucky enough where she

626
00:30:39,535 --> 00:30:43,705
entered like a 5k race last year,
May Day, and she won her age group.

627
00:30:44,035 --> 00:30:44,555
Wow.

628
00:30:44,555 --> 00:30:45,375
And she didn't practice before.

629
00:30:45,375 --> 00:30:47,785
She's like, so she always had
a talent for running and that

630
00:30:47,785 --> 00:30:48,805
got her to really running.

631
00:30:49,305 --> 00:30:50,185
So that helped a lot.

632
00:30:50,745 --> 00:30:53,195
I mean, so exercising with
your kids is the best, right?

633
00:30:53,195 --> 00:30:57,045
It's like such a triple, dual use of time.

634
00:30:57,805 --> 00:31:01,085
And the last one around education, I
think the one that was really useful

635
00:31:01,085 --> 00:31:04,850
is, There's different philosophies
on how you educate children, right?

636
00:31:04,860 --> 00:31:07,210
Do you like do Montessori, right?

637
00:31:07,230 --> 00:31:08,280
Is it play based?

638
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:09,860
Do you do direct instruction?

639
00:31:10,690 --> 00:31:14,959
And the one that I sort of believe
in is like you want to transition.

640
00:31:15,250 --> 00:31:18,420
You want to like focus on force
feeding them and direct instruction

641
00:31:18,450 --> 00:31:19,970
up until the point they can bootstrap.

642
00:31:20,939 --> 00:31:25,230
So basically we put them into at a very
academically focused school up until the

643
00:31:25,230 --> 00:31:28,820
second grade where they were just like
doing phonics and learning how to read.

644
00:31:29,180 --> 00:31:32,720
And then afterwards we put them into
like a more laissez faire school.

645
00:31:33,620 --> 00:31:38,290
And once they are able to read
and you have like a bunch of books

646
00:31:38,290 --> 00:31:41,880
available to them and their curiosity
takes over, then you're good to go.

647
00:31:42,100 --> 00:31:45,760
But getting them to reading as
early as possible was our strategy.

648
00:31:46,590 --> 00:31:47,280
I love that.

649
00:31:47,590 --> 00:31:52,369
Adam Fishman: Yeah, it's interesting
and I've thought a lot about this for

650
00:31:52,369 --> 00:31:58,680
even since before I had kids, but like
everything Is a reading exercise, right?

651
00:31:58,750 --> 00:32:02,820
Math, you have to be able to read
the story problem to do the work.

652
00:32:02,890 --> 00:32:06,430
It's social studies, like anything
you want to learn, like reading is

653
00:32:06,430 --> 00:32:08,049
kind of the gateway that unlocks that.

654
00:32:08,220 --> 00:32:08,569
Siqi Chen: Yeah.

655
00:32:08,569 --> 00:32:11,099
And once you know how to read and
you read something interesting,

656
00:32:11,099 --> 00:32:12,230
you want to read more, right?

657
00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:14,199
So positive feedback loop.

658
00:32:14,250 --> 00:32:18,100
That was like the thing that we
focused on early and that's worked out.

659
00:32:18,430 --> 00:32:18,780
Adam Fishman: Yeah.

660
00:32:19,260 --> 00:32:22,920
So you mentioned that how you
taught your daughter's language has

661
00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:24,320
changed between the two of them.

662
00:32:24,530 --> 00:32:24,830
Yeah.

663
00:32:24,890 --> 00:32:30,820
You mentioned just sort of your
worry about whether your kid is going

664
00:32:30,820 --> 00:32:35,889
to die or your paranoia level has
gone way down with your second kid.

665
00:32:35,889 --> 00:32:36,590
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

666
00:32:36,730 --> 00:32:43,050
Any other like large evolutions that
you've noticed from your oldest daughter

667
00:32:43,050 --> 00:32:45,560
to your youngest and how you personally.

668
00:32:46,895 --> 00:32:51,805
And then as a follow up to that, I'm
curious if you've also noticed anything

669
00:32:51,805 --> 00:32:57,965
change in how you run a company or manage
as I guess you've matured, as you've

670
00:32:57,974 --> 00:33:01,735
had a family, like, What's changed?

671
00:33:02,015 --> 00:33:05,085
Siqi Chen: With the kids, I mean,
the other thing between the two kids

672
00:33:05,085 --> 00:33:06,685
is you just buy a lot less crap.

673
00:33:07,165 --> 00:33:10,045
You know, there is like that funny
meme where, like, the first child

674
00:33:10,045 --> 00:33:13,875
has, like, all of the wearables
and, uh, the crib and everything.

675
00:33:13,875 --> 00:33:16,234
And the second child has, like,
a mattress and empty room.

676
00:33:17,465 --> 00:33:18,154
Like a box.

677
00:33:18,194 --> 00:33:19,685
Yeah, like a cardboard box.

678
00:33:19,825 --> 00:33:21,045
It's not far from the truth.

679
00:33:21,105 --> 00:33:24,335
But it also is like, well, you know,
we already have a bunch of stuff.

680
00:33:24,525 --> 00:33:24,835
Sure.

681
00:33:24,885 --> 00:33:28,495
Outside of that, yeah, we're
just a lot less stressed.

682
00:33:28,955 --> 00:33:31,585
I will say the five year age
gap is really interesting.

683
00:33:31,695 --> 00:33:36,005
We waited a long time, we weren't sure if
we wanted a second, and then we decided,

684
00:33:36,005 --> 00:33:37,395
okay, we're gonna pull the trigger on it.

685
00:33:37,585 --> 00:33:43,034
And the age gap is right enough where,
like, she has the best big sister ever.

686
00:33:43,455 --> 00:33:47,514
You know, Alessandra is super
helpful with Mira, and everything

687
00:33:47,514 --> 00:33:50,845
that she gets, she's like, oh, does
my little sister want it first?

688
00:33:52,025 --> 00:33:52,815
It's incredible.

689
00:33:53,025 --> 00:33:54,955
So that's a really big change.

690
00:33:54,965 --> 00:33:59,825
And oh, so that actually is really
interesting in that the first one

691
00:34:00,195 --> 00:34:03,754
tends to be a lot more giving and
the second one is frankly like a lot

692
00:34:03,754 --> 00:34:05,335
more self centered because of that.

693
00:34:05,345 --> 00:34:06,565
A lot more swallowed by her sister.

694
00:34:06,565 --> 00:34:10,845
And so, yeah, for the first one,
you know, we have to like, Tell

695
00:34:10,845 --> 00:34:11,885
them to adjust different ways.

696
00:34:11,885 --> 00:34:15,615
Like, hey, you don't have to share
everything if you don't want to.

697
00:34:15,915 --> 00:34:16,215
Adam Fishman: Mm hmm.

698
00:34:16,845 --> 00:34:19,075
Siqi Chen: And a second one is
like, you probably should share

699
00:34:19,075 --> 00:34:22,904
things you don't want to because
you don't want to share anything.

700
00:34:23,124 --> 00:34:26,965
So the dynamics of having an
older sister and a younger

701
00:34:26,965 --> 00:34:28,685
sister is pretty interesting.

702
00:34:28,855 --> 00:34:34,915
And as far as how effects work, I
will say this, Runway has I think

703
00:34:34,935 --> 00:34:36,295
most people at Runway have kids.

704
00:34:37,765 --> 00:34:40,275
It affects, I don't know, unconsciously.

705
00:34:40,275 --> 00:34:43,145
I don't think I was discriminating
against people with kids, but when

706
00:34:43,145 --> 00:34:44,665
you're young, you hire young people.

707
00:34:45,665 --> 00:34:50,724
And here we hire adults and
we trust them to be adults.

708
00:34:51,344 --> 00:34:52,524
So that's pretty different.

709
00:34:52,725 --> 00:34:55,364
Adam Fishman: I like that
idea of you're hiring adults.

710
00:34:55,725 --> 00:35:00,085
You kind of hire people a little bit in
your own mirror image, even if it's not,

711
00:35:00,695 --> 00:35:04,355
you know, again, like you mentioned, it's
not sort of biased or anything, but you

712
00:35:04,355 --> 00:35:08,554
do want to hire, you know, more senior
folks when you're more senior yourself.

713
00:35:08,785 --> 00:35:10,625
So it makes a ton of sense.

714
00:35:11,054 --> 00:35:16,074
Do you think that part of the reason
that your daughters get along so well

715
00:35:16,074 --> 00:35:20,455
or have this dynamic because of the
age gap is that there may be less

716
00:35:20,455 --> 00:35:23,894
competitive or something like that
because they're farther apart in age?

717
00:35:23,894 --> 00:35:24,604
They don't have a lot of.

718
00:35:24,970 --> 00:35:25,340
Oh, yeah.

719
00:35:25,340 --> 00:35:26,850
Overlap and, and things like that.

720
00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:27,120
Yeah.

721
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:27,580
Siqi Chen: For sure.

722
00:35:27,620 --> 00:35:27,890
Adam Fishman: That

723
00:35:27,890 --> 00:35:28,590
Siqi Chen: contributes.

724
00:35:28,970 --> 00:35:32,280
But also it helps that the older
one really appreciates having a

725
00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:36,150
little sister because she's been
asking for a sibling for years.

726
00:35:36,449 --> 00:35:36,829
Yeah.

727
00:35:37,759 --> 00:35:38,129
Right?

728
00:35:38,190 --> 00:35:38,879
And so she was

729
00:35:38,900 --> 00:35:40,100
Adam Fishman: really,
really happy about it.

730
00:35:40,479 --> 00:35:40,809
Yeah.

731
00:35:41,350 --> 00:35:41,930
That's cool.

732
00:35:42,119 --> 00:35:42,669
That's cool.

733
00:35:42,970 --> 00:35:43,209
All right.

734
00:35:43,210 --> 00:35:45,900
I wanted to transition and
ask you a little bit about

735
00:35:46,250 --> 00:35:47,560
partnership with your wife.

736
00:35:48,060 --> 00:35:50,320
So as we all know.

737
00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:55,580
Very important partnership
when you have kids.

738
00:35:56,060 --> 00:36:02,350
It is also very hard to agree with
your partner 100 percent of the time.

739
00:36:03,270 --> 00:36:06,510
So I'm very curious to hear
what is something that you

740
00:36:06,539 --> 00:36:09,429
and your wife do not agree on.

741
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:11,190
When it comes to parenting.

742
00:36:11,350 --> 00:36:11,740
I think

743
00:36:11,740 --> 00:36:13,960
Siqi Chen: we would all settle
for 50 percent of the time.

744
00:36:16,710 --> 00:36:17,430
I would settle

745
00:36:17,430 --> 00:36:17,960
Adam Fishman: for that on

746
00:36:17,980 --> 00:36:18,730
Siqi Chen: several days.

747
00:36:19,430 --> 00:36:19,870
Adam Fishman: Yes.

748
00:36:21,010 --> 00:36:24,960
Siqi Chen: Probably the biggest thing
that we don't agree on is like, how much

749
00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:28,479
do we let her make her own decisions?

750
00:36:29,469 --> 00:36:31,760
To what degree are we really
safe, fair about what she does

751
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:32,720
and what she's on her time on it?

752
00:36:33,050 --> 00:36:35,090
How much do we just tell
her you got to do this.

753
00:36:35,720 --> 00:36:40,400
And I would say whatever is the
opposite of a tiger mom is that is me.

754
00:36:40,780 --> 00:36:41,130
Okay.

755
00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:47,120
And my wife has a tiger mom, like
classically in the book, right?

756
00:36:47,630 --> 00:36:51,819
And the combination of it is
basically our philosophy, if you add

757
00:36:51,820 --> 00:36:54,870
it to it, is like, our kids better
at least drop out of Stanford.

758
00:37:00,449 --> 00:37:06,100
But yeah, I think that is a pretty big
sort of disagreement and just education

759
00:37:06,100 --> 00:37:08,570
in general, like the value of college.

760
00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:11,060
I'm like, college is a waste of time.

761
00:37:11,230 --> 00:37:14,030
There's a Teal fellowship where
Peter Teal is paying people

762
00:37:14,030 --> 00:37:15,070
to not even go to college.

763
00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:19,060
And she's very much like, but
no, they're going to like meet

764
00:37:19,060 --> 00:37:21,850
people and they're going to be
credentialed and all these things.

765
00:37:21,850 --> 00:37:24,809
I'm like, who knows if Stanford is
even going to exist in years from now?

766
00:37:25,310 --> 00:37:25,970
We don't know.

767
00:37:26,530 --> 00:37:26,690
Adam Fishman: You

768
00:37:26,770 --> 00:37:27,170
Siqi Chen: know?

769
00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:30,800
And so like, if there's this disagreement
about like sort of the long term

770
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:36,089
future of education and AGI, but you
have to prepare for that now, that can

771
00:37:36,100 --> 00:37:37,589
like become pretty tense, you know?

772
00:37:37,860 --> 00:37:41,170
Adam Fishman: Yeah, and it's
fascinating because like, you

773
00:37:41,170 --> 00:37:44,620
know, we can't predict the future
and this is going to be a really

774
00:37:44,620 --> 00:37:47,520
interesting segue into my next topic.

775
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:52,280
But the educational system that we have
today has been around for like a hundred

776
00:37:52,289 --> 00:37:57,090
years in the United States and hasn't
actually changed very much in that time.

777
00:37:57,090 --> 00:37:59,580
You know, aside from like industrial
revolution and things like that,

778
00:37:59,580 --> 00:38:03,570
it is still grow up, you know, do
well in school, get into a good

779
00:38:03,570 --> 00:38:05,554
college, prepares you for college.

780
00:38:05,905 --> 00:38:09,985
a job, get a great job, live your
life, lather, rinse, repeat for

781
00:38:09,985 --> 00:38:13,715
the next generation and try and
make sure that the next generation

782
00:38:13,715 --> 00:38:17,165
is better off than you were and
gets access to more opportunities.

783
00:38:17,444 --> 00:38:20,115
But you know, who knows what the hell
is going to happen with AI, right?

784
00:38:20,144 --> 00:38:23,194
Like we're already incorporating
it into educational opportunities

785
00:38:23,194 --> 00:38:24,455
and things for our kids.

786
00:38:24,535 --> 00:38:30,205
And so I'm curious to get your take
on this as someone who has built

787
00:38:30,805 --> 00:38:33,845
their entire career in technology.

788
00:38:34,325 --> 00:38:38,075
You know, you also worked in virtual
reality, gaming, which I often find

789
00:38:38,075 --> 00:38:39,555
is on sort of the cutting edge of.

790
00:38:40,095 --> 00:38:41,895
Technology advancements.

791
00:38:41,925 --> 00:38:44,985
What's the relationship that
you want your kids to have with

792
00:38:44,985 --> 00:38:46,515
technology as they get older?

793
00:38:46,615 --> 00:38:50,745
And how are you leveraging
technology today with them?

794
00:38:51,355 --> 00:38:52,065
Ideally,

795
00:38:52,065 --> 00:38:54,455
Siqi Chen: I want them to think about
technology the same way I think about

796
00:38:54,455 --> 00:38:58,785
them, but whether they end up thinking
about the same way as you do or the

797
00:38:58,795 --> 00:39:04,285
complete opposite, who knows, but the
way I think about technology in a way, I

798
00:39:04,285 --> 00:39:07,764
encourage our kids to think of technology
as these are tools to give you leverage.

799
00:39:08,285 --> 00:39:10,854
You can draw a line between
chat, TVT and a stick.

800
00:39:12,170 --> 00:39:17,370
Like we, as humans, we build tools
and tools help us do more things

801
00:39:17,450 --> 00:39:19,340
at greater scale, greater impact.

802
00:39:19,850 --> 00:39:23,750
And that's the way you should think about
technology and the way we've used it.

803
00:39:23,750 --> 00:39:25,680
I think obviously AI is a big thing.

804
00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:28,290
And so it was a really important to
me that I introduced them to chat.

805
00:39:28,290 --> 00:39:29,209
gp really early.

806
00:39:29,219 --> 00:39:30,829
They have the chat.

807
00:39:30,830 --> 00:39:32,510
gpt app on their iPads.

808
00:39:32,690 --> 00:39:34,250
I encouraged them to
use it for everything.

809
00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:37,830
I gave them perplexity as well
and search for everything.

810
00:39:37,830 --> 00:39:38,860
Just ask it questions.

811
00:39:38,860 --> 00:39:39,259
Yeah.

812
00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:39,880
Yeah.

813
00:39:40,375 --> 00:39:42,585
These are tools to be
used, to be mastered.

814
00:39:42,905 --> 00:39:49,674
Adam Fishman: Do you talk to your kids
at all about the potential pitfalls of

815
00:39:49,745 --> 00:39:55,404
over reliance on AI, at least in today's
version, things like hallucinations or.

816
00:39:55,770 --> 00:39:58,260
incorrect information
or anything like that.

817
00:39:58,270 --> 00:40:00,970
Have you had a conversation, maybe
not with your four year old, but

818
00:40:00,970 --> 00:40:06,260
maybe with your nine year old, around
like, how do you make sure that you're

819
00:40:06,270 --> 00:40:07,820
getting the right stuff out of this?

820
00:40:08,250 --> 00:40:11,330
Siqi Chen: I think actually
like that's less important.

821
00:40:11,330 --> 00:40:13,479
I don't spend a whole lot of
time talking to him about that.

822
00:40:13,479 --> 00:40:14,610
I mean, like, I, we did
have a conversation.

823
00:40:14,610 --> 00:40:16,114
Hey, not everything is gonna be correct.

824
00:40:16,445 --> 00:40:16,775
Right.

825
00:40:16,995 --> 00:40:17,665
But that's okay.

826
00:40:17,665 --> 00:40:19,505
It'll be more correct with GD85.

827
00:40:19,525 --> 00:40:24,685
Like, that's just a very temporary thing,
but like, it's the same conversation

828
00:40:24,685 --> 00:40:26,935
that you would have, like, don't believe
everything you read on the internet,

829
00:40:27,055 --> 00:40:28,534
or in the news for that matter, right?

830
00:40:28,534 --> 00:40:28,724
Right.

831
00:40:28,725 --> 00:40:30,115
It's like, use your own judgment.

832
00:40:30,115 --> 00:40:31,505
But this is a really useful tool.

833
00:40:31,790 --> 00:40:35,830
That gives you like a perspective,
just like a newspaper or the internet.

834
00:40:35,860 --> 00:40:37,830
And like, not all of that is true either.

835
00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:38,460
Yeah.

836
00:40:38,500 --> 00:40:41,330
So you'd have to be judicious
in your judgment about it,

837
00:40:41,770 --> 00:40:42,960
but it's highly convenient.

838
00:40:43,270 --> 00:40:45,749
Adam Fishman: What's the sort of
most interesting thing that one of

839
00:40:45,749 --> 00:40:48,690
your kids has done with chat GPT?

840
00:40:48,759 --> 00:40:49,359
Siqi Chen: Okay.

841
00:40:49,370 --> 00:40:54,450
So over Christmas, we were with a
family friend and they wanted to

842
00:40:54,990 --> 00:41:00,890
make a game and they were inventing
what kind of game they want to make.

843
00:41:01,315 --> 00:41:06,425
And we were in Japan at the time with
this family and we've seen Gundam.

844
00:41:06,825 --> 00:41:12,474
And so Alessandra and this child,
they wanted to figure out, okay,

845
00:41:12,474 --> 00:41:13,775
what kind of game do we want to make?

846
00:41:13,775 --> 00:41:15,885
They asked ChildDBT for
like ideas for games.

847
00:41:16,205 --> 00:41:17,555
They knew the theme of the game.

848
00:41:18,015 --> 00:41:21,685
And the theme of the game is a cross
between Transformers and Gundam.

849
00:41:22,215 --> 00:41:27,910
And They use Chachabitty to create
a bunch of like art that is like a

850
00:41:27,930 --> 00:41:29,180
cross between Transformers and Gundam.

851
00:41:29,180 --> 00:41:33,180
I'm like, I would never have
thought to like cross the two, but

852
00:41:33,199 --> 00:41:36,310
there is like some amazingly cool
robot illustrators come out of it.

853
00:41:36,740 --> 00:41:39,830
They were like talking through the
rules, writing down what the rules are.

854
00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:44,220
And then they were trying to figure
out, okay, how do we like code this?

855
00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:46,770
And then they asked how do you
teach them how to use unity?

856
00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:49,710
So it's nine year old and 10 year old.

857
00:41:49,710 --> 00:41:50,899
I think they downloaded a unit.

858
00:41:50,899 --> 00:41:52,380
I helped them download unity.

859
00:41:52,609 --> 00:41:53,499
They downloaded it.

860
00:41:53,729 --> 00:41:55,909
They were telling me how do you
think, okay, now what do we do?

861
00:41:56,329 --> 00:41:58,129
And they're working on this game.

862
00:41:59,610 --> 00:42:00,580
Adam Fishman: That is amazing.

863
00:42:00,850 --> 00:42:04,850
At nine and ten, how old were you
when you built your first game?

864
00:42:05,690 --> 00:42:09,130
Siqi Chen: Like in code, I was in the
sixth grade is like when I built my

865
00:42:09,130 --> 00:42:13,820
first game, I built like a version of
Minesweeper, Blackjack and Monopoly

866
00:42:13,820 --> 00:42:15,360
and Visual Basic in the sixth grade.

867
00:42:15,370 --> 00:42:18,930
So yeah, that is substantially
younger, but I also, that was

868
00:42:18,930 --> 00:42:20,010
when I had my first computer.

869
00:42:20,335 --> 00:42:20,715
Adam Fishman: Yeah.

870
00:42:21,475 --> 00:42:21,905
So yeah, they're

871
00:42:21,905 --> 00:42:23,485
Siqi Chen: in the, they were
in the fourth grade now.

872
00:42:23,535 --> 00:42:23,915
Adam Fishman: Yeah.

873
00:42:24,025 --> 00:42:24,415
Wow.

874
00:42:24,565 --> 00:42:24,855
Yeah.

875
00:42:24,855 --> 00:42:29,265
So you were probably two ish,
two, three years older than them.

876
00:42:29,575 --> 00:42:30,135
Fascinating.

877
00:42:30,145 --> 00:42:34,605
And I'll bet your illustrations for
Minesweeper were not nearly as good as

878
00:42:34,785 --> 00:42:36,485
what your daughter was coming up with.

879
00:42:36,755 --> 00:42:36,955
My

880
00:42:36,955 --> 00:42:38,564
Siqi Chen: older also some
background in this race.

881
00:42:38,574 --> 00:42:42,395
So in the, I think it was the late
second grade or around third grade,

882
00:42:42,395 --> 00:42:44,515
I mean, she was like on scratch man.

883
00:42:44,575 --> 00:42:48,005
That's a really great, it's like,
you know, Roblox light in 2d, right?

884
00:42:48,005 --> 00:42:48,784
So she was like.

885
00:42:48,955 --> 00:42:50,305
Coding Emperor Mystery Games.

886
00:42:50,355 --> 00:42:51,875
And that was a pretty good introduction.

887
00:42:52,165 --> 00:42:55,415
Adam Fishman: I may have mentioned this
in the chat group that we're in together.

888
00:42:55,535 --> 00:43:00,795
I can't recall, but my son built a game in
Scratch where you catch donuts in a hat.

889
00:43:01,315 --> 00:43:05,065
And that was the highlight of back to
school night or the school open house.

890
00:43:05,065 --> 00:43:06,675
He had to show me this game that he made.

891
00:43:06,854 --> 00:43:09,815
And he was just like gleefully
clacking away and showing me

892
00:43:09,815 --> 00:43:11,155
the code next to it and stuff.

893
00:43:11,175 --> 00:43:11,665
Very cool.

894
00:43:12,055 --> 00:43:16,525
What is something that you have
had to give up to become a dad?

895
00:43:17,950 --> 00:43:18,740
alone time.

896
00:43:19,370 --> 00:43:19,800
Okay.

897
00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:23,840
It was that something that
you prioritized a lot before?

898
00:43:24,580 --> 00:43:28,530
Siqi Chen: Um, it was the
default before, right?

899
00:43:28,620 --> 00:43:31,189
I'm an INTP Myers Briggs type.

900
00:43:31,189 --> 00:43:35,330
So it's an introverted
one that you can have.

901
00:43:35,380 --> 00:43:40,525
And Alone time lets you
be a lot more curious.

902
00:43:40,525 --> 00:43:44,375
You can just like spend a lot more
time being hyper focused on coding.

903
00:43:44,925 --> 00:43:49,465
And as a dad, like it's just hard to
get deep into any one thing anymore.

904
00:43:49,985 --> 00:43:53,284
And that's something that you have
to like really schedule time on.

905
00:43:53,285 --> 00:43:57,705
But like you're scheduling it, it's hard
to like pull on a thread in the moment

906
00:43:57,705 --> 00:43:58,985
when you're curious about a thing.

907
00:43:59,375 --> 00:43:59,595
Right.

908
00:43:59,595 --> 00:44:03,804
So that's like probably the biggest
and toughest change of being a dad.

909
00:44:03,975 --> 00:44:04,335
Adam Fishman: Yeah.

910
00:44:04,705 --> 00:44:06,885
What do you do in that situation?

911
00:44:07,295 --> 00:44:11,635
When, you know, creativity or
inspiration strikes and you're like,

912
00:44:11,715 --> 00:44:14,195
I really need to dig into this thing.

913
00:44:14,770 --> 00:44:16,850
Right now, or I'm going to lose it.

914
00:44:17,310 --> 00:44:22,120
I mean, do you have some sort of signal
you tell your kids or do you, you be

915
00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:24,290
like, Hey, everybody, the door's closing.

916
00:44:24,659 --> 00:44:25,930
I'm going into my place.

917
00:44:26,390 --> 00:44:26,969
You write it

918
00:44:26,969 --> 00:44:30,859
Siqi Chen: down and then, you know,
with some experience of writing it down,

919
00:44:30,860 --> 00:44:32,129
you realize that you can write it down.

920
00:44:32,129 --> 00:44:36,830
So I'll forget the thing, then you write
it down and then you try to record a

921
00:44:36,830 --> 00:44:39,560
video of you like downloading a thing.

922
00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:41,739
So I use a loon sometimes as a note.

923
00:44:42,210 --> 00:44:45,260
But generally like, yeah, there's
some like controversy on the interwebs

924
00:44:45,270 --> 00:44:49,850
about like the value of a notion or a
Rome today and how's the pace of time.

925
00:44:49,850 --> 00:44:52,850
But my sense of the, it's probably
like a lot more useful when you're a

926
00:44:52,850 --> 00:44:55,090
parent and you just have to like write

927
00:44:55,100 --> 00:44:55,720
Adam Fishman: things down all

928
00:44:55,720 --> 00:44:56,915
Siqi Chen: the time.

929
00:44:56,915 --> 00:44:58,019
Adam Fishman: Yes.

930
00:44:58,100 --> 00:45:02,650
I found that audio notes are far
better now than even typing because

931
00:45:02,650 --> 00:45:04,160
it's so much faster for me to just.

932
00:45:04,780 --> 00:45:07,370
Boop and like record a thing
and then come back to it.

933
00:45:07,390 --> 00:45:07,690
So

934
00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:09,830
Siqi Chen: yeah, there's
an app that I invested in.

935
00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:13,710
I think it's called Tucktastic
now, and it'll do is like you just.

936
00:45:14,230 --> 00:45:17,360
You know, vomit audio thoughts
and I'll try to like translate

937
00:45:17,360 --> 00:45:18,930
it into like really well formed

938
00:45:20,580 --> 00:45:21,450
Adam Fishman: pieces of text.

939
00:45:21,590 --> 00:45:22,340
Nice.

940
00:45:22,460 --> 00:45:23,110
Talktastic.

941
00:45:23,110 --> 00:45:23,990
I will check that out.

942
00:45:24,450 --> 00:45:27,780
We'll link to it in the show notes
for other people who are struggling

943
00:45:27,780 --> 00:45:29,470
as parents to form thoughts.

944
00:45:29,849 --> 00:45:34,689
What are some ways that you restore your
batteries or center yourself as a dad?

945
00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:36,070
You mentioned exercise.

946
00:45:36,140 --> 00:45:39,910
Is there another thing that's
like pretty important to you

947
00:45:39,910 --> 00:45:41,210
that kind of gets you recharged?

948
00:45:41,540 --> 00:45:45,360
Traveling to places where
there is a kid center.

949
00:45:46,899 --> 00:45:50,080
We were talking about this before,
before we started recording.

950
00:45:50,269 --> 00:45:56,000
A critical error when you travel somewhere
and there is no kids corner or kids zone.

951
00:45:56,355 --> 00:45:59,085
Yeah, traveling with

952
00:45:59,315 --> 00:46:04,685
Siqi Chen: child care taken care of is
probably the most rejuvenating thing.

953
00:46:04,945 --> 00:46:05,345
Adam Fishman: Yeah.

954
00:46:05,865 --> 00:46:06,265
Yeah.

955
00:46:06,535 --> 00:46:07,274
I love that.

956
00:46:07,754 --> 00:46:12,304
Aside from not having child care taken
care of when you travel, what is a

957
00:46:12,305 --> 00:46:14,354
mistake that you've made as a father?

958
00:46:15,255 --> 00:46:18,835
Siqi Chen: Biggest mistake is just
feeling entitled to my spouse's

959
00:46:18,835 --> 00:46:20,345
time, the one I mentioned before.

960
00:46:21,025 --> 00:46:24,925
That is like, You know, you
don't, you think you're doing

961
00:46:24,925 --> 00:46:25,855
it for the right reasons.

962
00:46:25,855 --> 00:46:28,685
Like, well, I'm just
prioritizing these things.

963
00:46:29,075 --> 00:46:32,914
But what really is, is comes from this
position of entitlement that, Oh, okay.

964
00:46:32,914 --> 00:46:34,784
Well, you have your role.

965
00:46:34,805 --> 00:46:35,874
I have my role.

966
00:46:35,895 --> 00:46:41,054
So therefore I don't have to do
certain things, pick up my clothes.

967
00:46:42,220 --> 00:46:42,610
Right.

968
00:46:42,670 --> 00:46:46,700
And the reality is like these small
things, although small are small

969
00:46:46,720 --> 00:46:49,580
in individual pieces, they add up

970
00:46:50,160 --> 00:46:50,250
Adam Fishman: to

971
00:46:50,250 --> 00:46:50,840
Siqi Chen: feelings.

972
00:46:51,520 --> 00:46:55,729
And that's probably the biggest mistake
is like, instead of like feeling like,

973
00:46:55,730 --> 00:47:01,200
Oh, there is this split and I resent not
having to like do things outside my split.

974
00:47:01,890 --> 00:47:02,920
It's about giving.

975
00:47:04,140 --> 00:47:07,320
You have to actively give in
order for this to be healthy.

976
00:47:07,340 --> 00:47:10,010
And like doing things outside of the
things that you're supposed to do

977
00:47:10,020 --> 00:47:12,210
is how you like show that giving.

978
00:47:12,570 --> 00:47:16,080
Not just the things that you're supposed
to do or things as part of your role as

979
00:47:16,130 --> 00:47:18,220
a startup founder or as a breadwinner.

980
00:47:18,830 --> 00:47:21,040
And that took me like
way too long for me to

981
00:47:21,040 --> 00:47:21,930
Adam Fishman: really internalize.

982
00:47:22,300 --> 00:47:22,690
Yeah.

983
00:47:22,900 --> 00:47:25,620
How did you finally get to that place?

984
00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:29,560
Was it a little bit with the help
and loving support of your partner?

985
00:47:29,920 --> 00:47:32,580
Or were you able to kind of
figure that out on your own?

986
00:47:32,990 --> 00:47:33,950
We were

987
00:47:33,970 --> 00:47:34,619
Siqi Chen: smart enough

988
00:47:34,619 --> 00:47:35,079
Adam Fishman: to

989
00:47:35,220 --> 00:47:40,660
Siqi Chen: talk to a therapist together
before things got like, and you know,

990
00:47:40,670 --> 00:47:44,660
it was to a point where in the first
few sessions, the therapist was like,

991
00:47:44,660 --> 00:47:47,680
why, I don't know why you're seeing
us, but then we got deeper as like,

992
00:47:47,680 --> 00:47:49,080
okay, well here's like a thing.

993
00:47:49,660 --> 00:47:52,540
And the thing that she said.

994
00:47:53,290 --> 00:47:55,420
It's just so dumb, but it just works.

995
00:47:55,420 --> 00:47:58,980
It's like, Hey, you should just like,
lean into it and like, feel good about it.

996
00:47:59,040 --> 00:48:00,440
And you'll just feel good about it.

997
00:48:01,190 --> 00:48:05,250
And like, it just, it doesn't sound
like it should work, but like, just

998
00:48:05,260 --> 00:48:09,529
after the conversations, that thing
that she said, I'm like, okay.

999
00:48:10,290 --> 00:48:13,510
And every time this has come up, I think
about, I was like, I'm just going to

1000
00:48:13,510 --> 00:48:15,600
like, feel good about it and lean into it.

1001
00:48:15,910 --> 00:48:16,890
And I was like, oh shit.

1002
00:48:17,230 --> 00:48:18,220
That totally works.

1003
00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:20,750
And the more I lean to it,
the better I feel about it.

1004
00:48:20,940 --> 00:48:21,270
Yeah.

1005
00:48:21,990 --> 00:48:22,750
It wasn't the

1006
00:48:22,750 --> 00:48:23,260
Adam Fishman: opposite.

1007
00:48:23,530 --> 00:48:25,929
Turns out she knew a
thing or two about this.

1008
00:48:26,060 --> 00:48:26,399
Yeah.

1009
00:48:26,399 --> 00:48:27,400
She is very good at it.

1010
00:48:27,820 --> 00:48:28,430
Amazing.

1011
00:48:28,600 --> 00:48:34,419
Well, my last question before we start
our rapid fire around is how can people

1012
00:48:34,780 --> 00:48:40,090
follow along with your journey or be
helpful to you, your company, if they'd

1013
00:48:40,090 --> 00:48:41,350
like to find you on the internet?

1014
00:48:41,770 --> 00:48:43,020
Well, if you have

1015
00:48:43,090 --> 00:48:44,230
Siqi Chen: finance problems.

1016
00:48:44,775 --> 00:48:45,625
I feel bad for you, son.

1017
00:48:46,245 --> 00:48:46,765
Go to runway.

1018
00:48:46,905 --> 00:48:50,595
com or email me or tweet at me
later and I'll be happy to help.

1019
00:48:50,835 --> 00:48:51,195
Adam Fishman: Cool.

1020
00:48:51,225 --> 00:48:51,775
Runway.

1021
00:48:52,045 --> 00:48:52,375
com.

1022
00:48:52,375 --> 00:48:57,405
We will put that in the show notes and
you, I think I saw relatively recently

1023
00:48:57,405 --> 00:49:02,104
within the last year, raised some
financing, some decently significant

1024
00:49:02,104 --> 00:49:03,905
financing, so that's very exciting.

1025
00:49:03,905 --> 00:49:05,385
So congrats on that.

1026
00:49:05,405 --> 00:49:06,935
And I know as many.

1027
00:49:07,300 --> 00:49:10,280
Would say it's just the beginning,
but it does sound like things are

1028
00:49:10,280 --> 00:49:13,500
going pretty well at runway and you're
getting some traction and growing.

1029
00:49:13,500 --> 00:49:15,030
So I'm excited to check it out.

1030
00:49:15,619 --> 00:49:17,750
Are you ready for rapid fire?

1031
00:49:18,520 --> 00:49:19,220
Oh, let's go.

1032
00:49:19,280 --> 00:49:23,780
What is the most indispensable parenting
product that you have ever purchased?

1033
00:49:23,870 --> 00:49:24,480
A ball pit.

1034
00:49:24,970 --> 00:49:25,370
Ooh.

1035
00:49:25,810 --> 00:49:26,719
Finish this sentence.

1036
00:49:26,740 --> 00:49:30,800
The ideal day with my kids
involves this one activity.

1037
00:49:31,125 --> 00:49:31,935
Running or skiing.

1038
00:49:32,785 --> 00:49:34,665
What is your go to

1039
00:49:34,875 --> 00:49:36,195
Siqi Chen: dad wardrobe?

1040
00:49:36,445 --> 00:49:38,265
I'm kind of wearing it
just for this podcast.

1041
00:49:38,675 --> 00:49:39,015
What is it?

1042
00:49:39,055 --> 00:49:41,105
I can't even see what it
says on the shirt, but the

1043
00:49:41,105 --> 00:49:44,725
coolest dad in mirror image.

1044
00:49:44,814 --> 00:49:47,465
The whole family has
like matching sets here.

1045
00:49:48,365 --> 00:49:49,215
That's amazing.

1046
00:49:49,424 --> 00:49:49,865
That in

1047
00:49:49,865 --> 00:49:52,745
Adam Fishman: and of itself is
like a very dad move right there.

1048
00:49:53,125 --> 00:49:56,455
How many parenting books
do you have in your house?

1049
00:49:56,675 --> 00:49:58,735
I want to say probably upwards of a dozen.

1050
00:49:59,235 --> 00:50:01,415
And how many parenting
books have you read?

1051
00:50:01,740 --> 00:50:02,990
Cover to cover.

1052
00:50:03,280 --> 00:50:04,280
Exactly zero.

1053
00:50:04,470 --> 00:50:05,660
Okay, good.

1054
00:50:05,800 --> 00:50:06,630
Common answer.

1055
00:50:07,025 --> 00:50:09,175
Siqi Chen: What are the
favorite ages for your kids?

1056
00:50:09,255 --> 00:50:12,225
The current age, where current
age is greater than two.

1057
00:50:12,425 --> 00:50:15,235
Okay, what is your least favorite age?

1058
00:50:15,875 --> 00:50:15,885
1.

1059
00:50:16,424 --> 00:50:17,935
Adam Fishman: 5 or less.

1060
00:50:18,615 --> 00:50:18,845
1.

1061
00:50:18,905 --> 00:50:20,045
5 or less.

1062
00:50:20,355 --> 00:50:20,924
I love that.

1063
00:50:20,924 --> 00:50:22,574
We're giving it in terms of formulas.

1064
00:50:22,825 --> 00:50:24,824
Allows for some imprecision.

1065
00:50:25,114 --> 00:50:28,485
Have you ever secretly thrown away
a piece of your kid's artwork?

1066
00:50:28,525 --> 00:50:30,585
Yes, and I have not secretly thrown away.

1067
00:50:32,405 --> 00:50:34,564
It's important for kids to
experience disappointment.

1068
00:50:34,695 --> 00:50:35,395
Siqi Chen: To let go.

1069
00:50:35,455 --> 00:50:38,265
What is your favorite

1070
00:50:38,425 --> 00:50:39,675
Adam Fishman: kids movie?

1071
00:50:39,745 --> 00:50:42,135
The amazing Panadventure
because my wife is in it.

1072
00:50:42,395 --> 00:50:43,505
Oh, nice.

1073
00:50:43,535 --> 00:50:44,855
Now I'm gonna have to check this out.

1074
00:50:45,225 --> 00:50:50,565
What is the worst experience that
you have ever had assembling a

1075
00:50:50,575 --> 00:50:52,865
children's toy or a piece of furniture?

1076
00:50:53,625 --> 00:50:56,065
Siqi Chen: I don't know if I had,
like, really bad experiences, but

1077
00:50:56,075 --> 00:50:58,865
most recently I had to put together a
chicken coop because the kids wanted

1078
00:50:58,865 --> 00:51:03,055
chickens and the chickens came home from
school because they were hatching eggs.

1079
00:51:03,515 --> 00:51:04,885
And that was, that took a while.

1080
00:51:05,105 --> 00:51:05,675
Okay.

1081
00:51:05,904 --> 00:51:08,835
Are you now the proud owner
of a couple of chickens?

1082
00:51:08,845 --> 00:51:09,755
Four chickens, yeah.

1083
00:51:10,015 --> 00:51:10,451
Four chickens?

1084
00:51:10,451 --> 00:51:12,505
Actually, we had four and then
three and then two and then

1085
00:51:12,505 --> 00:51:13,425
one and now we have four again.

1086
00:51:15,945 --> 00:51:17,525
Adam Fishman: You restocked the coop.

1087
00:51:17,545 --> 00:51:18,135
Yeah, yeah.

1088
00:51:18,475 --> 00:51:22,545
One thing I've, I also at one point
in my life owned chickens, my adult

1089
00:51:22,545 --> 00:51:27,165
life, and one thing I learned is that
chickens are fairly fragile animals.

1090
00:51:27,194 --> 00:51:28,474
They die very easily.

1091
00:51:28,645 --> 00:51:30,234
Siqi Chen: Yeah, I think not.

1092
00:51:30,675 --> 00:51:33,555
Naturally, but by predators, yes.

1093
00:51:33,585 --> 00:51:33,955
Yeah.

1094
00:51:33,975 --> 00:51:35,525
Which is how we lost our chickens.

1095
00:51:35,595 --> 00:51:36,375
Oh, I'm sorry.

1096
00:51:36,455 --> 00:51:40,285
But the other thing I learned is
that eggs come out of the hens

1097
00:51:40,305 --> 00:51:41,955
without the need for a rooster.

1098
00:51:42,205 --> 00:51:42,705
Correct.

1099
00:51:43,665 --> 00:51:43,965
Adam Fishman: Correct.

1100
00:51:43,994 --> 00:51:44,865
That blew my mind.

1101
00:51:44,935 --> 00:51:45,435
Yeah.

1102
00:51:45,694 --> 00:51:47,524
Do you eat a lot of
eggs in your household?

1103
00:51:47,634 --> 00:51:48,484
We do eat a lot of eggs.

1104
00:51:48,505 --> 00:51:49,945
I bet you kind of have to.

1105
00:51:50,385 --> 00:51:53,265
Have you ever accidentally
mixed up your kid's names?

1106
00:51:53,335 --> 00:51:54,225
Many times, yes.

1107
00:51:54,475 --> 00:51:59,375
How long can a piece of food sit
on the floor in your household

1108
00:51:59,635 --> 00:52:00,705
and you will still eat it?

1109
00:52:00,825 --> 00:52:03,355
I, we generally respect
the five second rule.

1110
00:52:03,755 --> 00:52:04,575
Five second rule.

1111
00:52:04,625 --> 00:52:05,095
Okay.

1112
00:52:05,365 --> 00:52:10,975
What nostalgic movie can you not
wait to force your kids to watch?

1113
00:52:11,105 --> 00:52:14,855
Siqi Chen: This movie I actually did not
wait to force my kid to watch because

1114
00:52:14,885 --> 00:52:17,254
I took my elder one to the symphony.

1115
00:52:17,845 --> 00:52:22,575
When there was a live showing and it was
completely inappropriate, but I think

1116
00:52:22,575 --> 00:52:24,615
she was six and we watched the Matrix.

1117
00:52:24,925 --> 00:52:26,475
You, you took her to see the

1118
00:52:26,545 --> 00:52:29,234
Adam Fishman: Symphony Matrix performance.

1119
00:52:29,255 --> 00:52:30,024
Love that.

1120
00:52:30,024 --> 00:52:31,994
She was definitely the
youngest person there.

1121
00:52:32,045 --> 00:52:35,124
Yeah, did you get any weird looks
from other people as the bullets

1122
00:52:35,124 --> 00:52:36,485
are whizzing by Neo's head?

1123
00:52:36,505 --> 00:52:37,635
I didn't look.

1124
00:52:37,695 --> 00:52:38,405
You didn't look.

1125
00:52:38,505 --> 00:52:38,805
Nope.

1126
00:52:39,015 --> 00:52:42,605
How often do you tell your
kids back in my day stories?

1127
00:52:43,085 --> 00:52:43,815
Siqi Chen: Probably once a month.

1128
00:52:44,474 --> 00:52:44,884
Adam Fishman: Yeah.

1129
00:52:45,260 --> 00:52:48,190
You ever tell your oldest
daughter by your age, I had lived

1130
00:52:48,190 --> 00:52:50,010
in China two different times.

1131
00:52:50,610 --> 00:52:53,210
No, no, no, it's not an attraction.

1132
00:52:53,290 --> 00:52:54,309
That's not the thing about it.

1133
00:52:54,309 --> 00:52:56,050
I aspire her to also do.

1134
00:52:56,179 --> 00:52:57,360
That's a bug, not a feature.

1135
00:52:57,550 --> 00:53:01,349
And finally, my favorite question,
and I know you only have two kids,

1136
00:53:01,629 --> 00:53:03,720
but you do live down in the peninsula.

1137
00:53:03,889 --> 00:53:07,310
So what is your take on minivans?

1138
00:53:07,370 --> 00:53:09,400
One of the greatest inventions of mankind.

1139
00:53:09,660 --> 00:53:11,930
The minivan is one of the
greatest inventions of mankind.

1140
00:53:11,980 --> 00:53:13,240
I, wow.

1141
00:53:13,240 --> 00:53:14,510
You heard it here first folks.

1142
00:53:14,510 --> 00:53:15,150
Siki.

1143
00:53:15,410 --> 00:53:17,570
Is a huge minivan fan.

1144
00:53:17,970 --> 00:53:18,480
All right.

1145
00:53:18,560 --> 00:53:20,110
Not pulling any punches on that one.

1146
00:53:20,300 --> 00:53:21,780
It's the bye bye baby of cars.

1147
00:53:21,900 --> 00:53:24,139
It's the bye bye baby of cars.

1148
00:53:24,570 --> 00:53:29,240
That is a wonderful note to end
on that will live in my head rent

1149
00:53:29,240 --> 00:53:31,560
free forever based on this show.

1150
00:53:31,730 --> 00:53:35,059
Sigi, thank you so much for
joining me on startup dad today.

1151
00:53:35,199 --> 00:53:35,859
This was an awesome.

1152
00:53:36,340 --> 00:53:42,240
Conversation and I wish you and runway and
your family all the success in the world.

1153
00:53:42,610 --> 00:53:43,110
Thanks again.

1154
00:53:43,150 --> 00:53:44,530
I appreciate it for having me.

1155
00:53:44,530 --> 00:53:46,260
I think the pod that
you're doing is wonderful.

1156
00:53:46,490 --> 00:53:47,070
Happy to be on.

1157
00:53:48,119 --> 00:53:51,300
Thank you for listening to today's
conversation with Siki Chen.

1158
00:53:51,780 --> 00:53:54,839
If you enjoyed the show, please
subscribe, share, and leave me

1159
00:53:54,840 --> 00:53:56,959
a review on Apple or Spotify.

1160
00:53:57,640 --> 00:53:59,650
It'll help other people find this podcast.

1161
00:54:00,290 --> 00:54:04,975
Startup Dad is Fishman AF production
with editing support from Tommy Heron.

1162
00:54:05,405 --> 00:54:09,715
You can join my community of over
10, 000 subscribers and stay up to

1163
00:54:09,715 --> 00:54:13,915
date on my thoughts on growth product
and parenting by subscribing to

1164
00:54:13,915 --> 00:54:17,405
the Fishman AF newsletter at www.

1165
00:54:17,465 --> 00:54:17,745
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1166
00:54:20,815 --> 00:54:21,105
com.

1167
00:54:21,675 --> 00:54:22,545
Thanks for listening.

1168
00:54:22,955 --> 00:54:23,825
See you next week.