Parental Guilt, Legal Considerations For Parents, and Career Change | David Lat (father of 2, lawyer, writer)

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Take the advice that works
for you and ignore the rest.

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Because as you mentioned, everyone
is going to offer you advice.

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Anyone who's had a kid.

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And you know, my parents,
my in laws, friends.

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And some of the things are going to work
for you and other things are not, because

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every family and every kid is different.

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And listen with an open mind and Try
lots of things out, trial and error,

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enroll your kid in different activities,
try different foods for them, whatever.

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But at the end of the day, follow
the advice that works and ignore

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the rest and don't feel bad about

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it.

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Welcome to Startup Dad, the podcast where
we dive deep into the lives of dads who

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are also leaders in the world of startups
and business, I'm your host, Adam Fishman.

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And in today's conversation,
I sat down with David Latt.

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David is a lawyer who started the legal
news website Above the Law, and then later

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his own legal newsletter and a bi weekly
podcast called Original Jurisdiction,

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which is now his full time job.

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He's a husband and the father of two kids.

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In our conversation today, we spoke
about the transition from an in house

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legal career to the world of writing and
podcasting and how that has opened up time

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for him to be more present for his family.

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We also talked about the surrogacy
process that he and his husband

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went through, along with some of
the important legal considerations

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in surrogacy and as a new parent.

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Including setting up a will
and why it's common for parents

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to drag their feet on this.

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We dove into the topic of parental
guilt, something you won't hear many men

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discuss, and ended with a conversation
on how to talk to your kids about

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different family types and configurations.

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I learned a lot from David
and I hope you do too.

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I would like to welcome David Lapp to
The startup dad podcast, David, it is a

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pleasure having you on the show today.

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Thanks for joining me.

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Thank you,

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Adam.

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All right, let's get started here.

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So David, tell me a little bit about
you and your professional background.

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Sure.

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So I grew up in northern New Jersey, and I
went to law school and practiced law for a

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number of years, maybe six to seven years.

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And then after that, I went out on my
own and did a more entrepreneurial thing.

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I Started a legal news website
called Above the Law in 2006 and

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was there from 2006 until 2019.

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And Above the Law has grown quite a bit.

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It's a very large legal news website.

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And then, kind of wanting a new challenge
in 2020, I struck out on my own again

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and started a newsletter on the Substack
platform called Original Jurisdiction.

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And that is now my full time occupation.

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I also produce a podcast in
addition that is Sort of an

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accompaniment to the newsletter.

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All right.

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What was the decision to
go from Practicing law to

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then writing about the law.

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What was that?

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Like?

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Why did you make

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that call?

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So it happened?

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Sort of accidentally when I was
working as a federal prosecutor

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in new jersey under then u.

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s Attorney chris christie I started a
blog under a pseudonym just for fun.

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This was in 2004 when blogs
were becoming very popular.

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It was called Underneath Their
Robes, News, Gossip, and Colorful

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Commentary About the Federal Judiciary.

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And since I was appearing before
judges by day and writing irreverent,

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occasionally snarky things about
them by night, I did this Under a

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pseudonym, and it developed a following.

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It developed traction.

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And then a year and a half in, I revealed
myself as the author of this blog

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in an interview with the New Yorker.

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And then after that, I left the
practice of law to focus on writing.

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Oh, wow.

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I imagine that Chris Christie
wouldn't have been excited about

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you writing a snarky story.

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Kind of behind the scenes newsletter
while also practicing and being

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part of the prosecutor department.

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Well,

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it's interesting.

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I have to say, Chris was actually
really very gracious about it.

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I just had him as the most recent
guest on my own podcast, and

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we sort of relived those days.

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And back then the Justice Department
didn't really have a social media policy.

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So The people in DC told him, it's
your call what to do with this guy

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and I had shut down the blog by
that time so he let me keep my job.

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I was very grateful to him for that.

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But eventually after being just a
lawyer for a little while and not

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having the outlet of the writing, I
realized that I did want to leave.

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So.

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Even though he didn't fire me, I
eventually quit to focus on writing

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because I was realizing that I was
enjoying the writing more than my day job.

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And as a sort of condition of
staying on, once I stopped the

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writing, I just, I don't know.

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I didn't feel like myself.

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Yeah.

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Well, we're going to get into
that because I think it's a

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fascinating career transition.

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You know, I have a lawyer wife, so
I'm familiar with the legal field

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and the demands of the legal field.

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But because this is a dad podcast, tell
me a little bit about your family story.

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Now, and tell me about your partner.

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So my husband, Zach, we started dating
in 2009 and then got married in 2015.

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He is also a lawyer, but
unlike me, he still practices.

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We have two children, two boys.

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Harlan is six.

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He's in first grade and
Chase is eight months and.

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He's in diapers.

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I love that.

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Not in class.

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He's in diapers.

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Nope.

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He's starting to crawl, which is fun.

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Yeah.

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So

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tell me a little bit about the decision
to start a family and what that.

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process was like.

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So I've interviewed other
folks on the podcast.

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You've talked about things like
surrogacy and stuff like that.

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But I'm always curious what this sort
of route that you and Zach was and what

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your journey to become parents was like.

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So we did have our Children through
surrogacy and we are eternally grateful

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to our egg donor and our two surrogates.

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And it was a long journey in some ways.

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We knew we wanted to have kids.

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And so Fairly soon after we got
married, we started learning about

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the process, and we actually did get
the process underway fairly soon.

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We got married in September of 2015,
and then shortly thereafter, we were

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already researching about the process,
and I think it was in maybe, gosh, I'm

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trying to remember now, but in February
of 2017, we did The embryo transfer.

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And in October of 2017, Harlan was born.

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And then we did not mean to have
a six year gap between our kids.

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We were hoping to have them
spaced a little sooner.

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But we ended up having
a bit of challenges.

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We had a couple of unsuccessful embryo
transfers, the pandemic intervened.

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And so there was a time when IVF clinics
weren't really performing procedures.

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And so that was That second journey took a
lot longer than the first, but eventually,

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last July, we welcomed Chase to the world.

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So that, in a nutshell, is
our journey to parenthood.

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So I've only really talked to
maybe one other same sex couple

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who has gone through surrogacy,
and I'm always curious, was that a

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challenging process to find surrogates?

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Some people have different backgrounds.

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Opinions about being a surrogate for
same sex couple and so I'm just kind

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of curious what the challenges not
just the, you know, legal challenges

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and the sort of logistical challenges.

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But what were the other kind of maybe?

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You know, lesser discussed
challenges of going through this.

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So I have to say it was in many
ways a better process than you might

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expect in the sense that surrogacy
has become increasingly popular, both

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for same sex and heterosexual couples.

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And there are now agencies
that help you find egg donors

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and help you find surrogates.

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And they do a lot of the.

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vetting of surrogates and really try
to prepare detailed profiles of them.

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And so we had a lot of great help from
agencies and their teams along the way.

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So that was definitely a big help.

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Obviously, and this is not a secret,
the process is very expensive.

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So that is certainly part of it.

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I think that in some ways, what is
challenging, but this is not unique

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To same sex couples is just, you
know, when things don't work out.

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So we had a couple of
unsuccessful embryo transfers.

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We had one pregnancy loss.

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And I think it's tough.

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And it's tough, not just on us, but
also On our surrogates because even

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though we have no idea when it doesn't
work, why it didn't work, sometimes

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the surrogates will feel bad or they'll
feel that they let us down or something,

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even though it was not their fault.

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And we have no idea why
the transfer didn't work.

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So emotionally, I think that
is a bit of a challenge.

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But again, it's not unique to us.

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Lots of couples have fertility challenges
or miscarriages or what have you.

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So it's something that a
lot of couples deal with.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Imagine.

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And now the interesting thing is, then
you introduce a new person into the mix.

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So it's not just sadness or the
disappointment from the couple,

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but then you've got another
person in from the outside.

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And so I wanted to ask.

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So you and your husband are both
lawyers and I'm married to a lawyer.

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So I know how demanding that field is.

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How do you and your husband Zach manage
a household with a six year old and

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a eight month old and diapers plus.

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You know, he is the professional
demands of being a practicing attorney.

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You have the demands of being on
the content treadmill of writing a

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newsletter and producing a podcast,
which as somebody who does the same,

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I know can be very demanding as well.

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So how do the two of you
make that work at home?

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Well, we are very fortunate.

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We have an au pair, Michelle, and we
also have a part time nanny, Gloria,

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and they work really well together.

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The reason we have Gloria
as well as Michelle is.

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Harlan, like many six year olds, has
a gazillion activities, and we didn't

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want Michelle schlepping a newborn to
all of these activities, especially

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during the winter months, while also
trying to deal with Harlan, who really,

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to be honest, is a bit of a handful.

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So, when Harlan comes home, they divide
and conquer, and Gloria looks after

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Chase, while Michelle takes Harlan
to all of his gazillion activities.

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We are also fortunate to have
all four grandparents near us.

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One of the reasons we moved from
Manhattan to the suburbs of New Jersey

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is the suburbs of New Jersey is where
Zach's parents and my parents all live.

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And so the grandparents
help us out a lot too.

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And I don't know how people who
don't have that help Nearby do it.

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So we are very lucky.

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We still have a lot of challenges
and it's still very difficult to make

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things work as two working parents, but
we consider ourselves very fortunate

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in the grand scheme of things.

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Yeah.

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Does the newsletter writing and the
podcast production, does that afford

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you a more flexible schedule than

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Zach?

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Yes.

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And that is actually, I think
really key to our making it work.

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I think that if you're going to have
One parent who has a very demanding job.

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It can be helpful to have another parent
who also has a demanding job, but a

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flexible, and you can probably relate to
this, Adam, so I can make my own hours

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and I can write late at night after the
kids go to bed, or, uh, I can schedule

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things while Harlan is at school.

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And it also is great because if something
unexpected comes up, like a pediatrician

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appointment, because one of the kids is
sick, or, you know, Or something like

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that, or a snow day or what have you.

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I don't have to really call in to
a job and tell them, Hey, I'm not

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coming today, or something like that.

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I'm really my own boss.

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And so it does help, I think.

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If you can't have one parent who's
focused and a stay at home parent, I

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think the next best thing is a working
parent who has a lot of flexibility.

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Yeah, that

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that's great.

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I've talked to people before about
this concept of the greediness of

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a career and certainly a practicing
attorney is possibly one of the most

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greedy careers that you can have.

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Your time is never your own when
you are practicing as a lawyer.

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Did the decision to be a full
time writer and to do the podcast,

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00:12:40,050 --> 00:12:45,419
did that have anything to do with
the transition to being a parent?

236
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Because you mentioned.

237
00:12:46,900 --> 00:12:49,370
You know, Harlan six, and you
mentioned this kind of happened

238
00:12:49,370 --> 00:12:55,939
in, you know, 2019 ish is when you
really kind of went out on your own.

239
00:12:56,030 --> 00:12:57,869
So yeah, were those two things related?

240
00:12:58,650 --> 00:13:03,139
Uh, somewhat, because after I
left above the law in 2019, I

241
00:13:03,140 --> 00:13:07,095
took a, two year detour into legal
recruiting, headhunting, basically.

242
00:13:07,115 --> 00:13:10,275
And I did that from 2019 to 2021.

243
00:13:10,515 --> 00:13:14,585
And that was a more traditional
job with more traditional hours.

244
00:13:14,585 --> 00:13:16,335
I did go to an office.

245
00:13:16,705 --> 00:13:22,015
And I think by that point, Harlan was,
of course, getting in some ways more

246
00:13:22,015 --> 00:13:24,425
demanding, in some ways they get easier,
and in some ways they get harder.

247
00:13:24,455 --> 00:13:29,555
But Harlan was, of course, more demanding,
and we knew we wanted to have another kid.

248
00:13:29,565 --> 00:13:32,774
And so I think it definitely
contributed to my decision to leave.

249
00:13:32,834 --> 00:13:35,395
leave recruiting and return
to full time writing.

250
00:13:35,395 --> 00:13:39,204
But I would say that the major
driver for that was actually a

251
00:13:39,204 --> 00:13:44,415
terrible near death experience I
had with COVID 19 in March of 2020.

252
00:13:44,444 --> 00:13:47,974
I was in the hospital for
three weeks, including a

253
00:13:48,015 --> 00:13:49,614
couple of days on a ventilator.

254
00:13:49,685 --> 00:13:53,125
And it really just put
things in perspective for me.

255
00:13:53,125 --> 00:13:56,535
And it just kind of made me realize, and
again, it's cliched, but I felt it very

256
00:13:56,535 --> 00:13:58,405
viscerally that just life is too short.

257
00:13:58,435 --> 00:14:02,250
And, you know, I realized that even though
I enjoyed recruiting and it was certainly

258
00:14:02,460 --> 00:14:04,700
lucrative, I really missed writing.

259
00:14:04,700 --> 00:14:07,100
And so that's when I started
my newsletter, Original

260
00:14:07,100 --> 00:14:08,980
Jurisdiction, in December of 2020.

261
00:14:09,229 --> 00:14:11,989
And after doing it for free while
juggling it with recruiting for a

262
00:14:11,990 --> 00:14:16,549
number of months, in May of 2021,
I moved to doing it full time.

263
00:14:16,599 --> 00:14:20,360
And it took a little while to build
up an audience to the point where it's

264
00:14:20,380 --> 00:14:22,530
now a viable source of making a living.

265
00:14:22,530 --> 00:14:24,530
But now that it's set up, it's great.

266
00:14:25,090 --> 00:14:25,180
Oh,

267
00:14:25,180 --> 00:14:25,830
that's awesome.

268
00:14:26,150 --> 00:14:29,895
And so, I know we're not here
to dispense legal advice.

269
00:14:29,895 --> 00:14:34,634
This is not a legal podcast, and I
wouldn't recommend getting legal advice

270
00:14:34,634 --> 00:14:37,185
from a podcast, nor I'm sure would you.

271
00:14:37,474 --> 00:14:42,745
But I did want to ask, I realize that
there are a lot of legal considerations

272
00:14:42,755 --> 00:14:46,974
when you become a parent, and yours
probably started even earlier because the

273
00:14:46,974 --> 00:14:52,555
surrogacy process, there's a fairly hefty
set of legal documents that surround that.

274
00:14:52,944 --> 00:14:57,280
But setting that aside, I'm wondering,
What are some of the more important

275
00:14:57,360 --> 00:15:02,350
legal considerations that parents start
to think about, like, after you become a

276
00:15:02,350 --> 00:15:02,770
parent?

277
00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:04,620
Well, a couple of things.

278
00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:10,289
I think for folks like us who became
parents in a less traditional way,

279
00:15:10,570 --> 00:15:14,970
We had to establish our parental
rights from the get go, and our

280
00:15:14,970 --> 00:15:17,100
boys were both born in Colorado.

281
00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:21,010
And fortunately, in Colorado, you can
get, through legal process with the

282
00:15:21,010 --> 00:15:24,649
help of a lawyer, something called a
pre birth order, which means that in

283
00:15:24,650 --> 00:15:29,260
advance of the birth, the surrogate
relinquishes whatever parental rights

284
00:15:29,290 --> 00:15:33,950
she is deemed to have under the law,
and the non biological dad steps in.

285
00:15:34,195 --> 00:15:35,985
to become the other parent.

286
00:15:36,305 --> 00:15:40,385
And as a result, when the child
is born, at least in Colorado and

287
00:15:40,385 --> 00:15:44,704
certain other states, you can have
both names on the birth certificate

288
00:15:44,735 --> 00:15:46,865
of both dads or both intended parents.

289
00:15:47,155 --> 00:15:50,484
You don't have to go through a
kind of procedure of second parent

290
00:15:50,485 --> 00:15:52,344
adoption or anything like that.

291
00:15:52,354 --> 00:15:57,340
So for people who do go through that,
Journey, that is a consideration, you

292
00:15:57,340 --> 00:16:01,070
do have to just make sure that you cross
your T's and dot your I's on that in

293
00:16:01,070 --> 00:16:04,360
terms of making sure that you are the
legal parents, and then the second thing

294
00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:07,180
I would mention, and this is pretty
obvious, but it's kind of funny, even

295
00:16:07,180 --> 00:16:10,249
though we're both lawyers, I'm embarrassed
to say, Harlan was around for several

296
00:16:10,249 --> 00:16:13,750
years before we got around to doing this,
you have to establish a will and you

297
00:16:13,750 --> 00:16:17,410
should have all of the other Documents
associated with that, including health

298
00:16:17,410 --> 00:16:21,890
care directives and proxies and all of
that, because it's no longer just you,

299
00:16:21,900 --> 00:16:23,650
you know, God forbid you drop dead.

300
00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:25,099
You have people depending on you.

301
00:16:25,130 --> 00:16:26,839
Now you have another human being.

302
00:16:26,839 --> 00:16:30,539
And so we had to do a will and all
of these health care documents and

303
00:16:30,895 --> 00:16:35,094
We had to talk to Zach's brother to
say, Hey, in the terrible event that

304
00:16:35,094 --> 00:16:38,245
we both passed away, would you be
willing to take care of our kids?

305
00:16:38,435 --> 00:16:39,194
Things like that.

306
00:16:39,214 --> 00:16:43,494
So it was definitely something that
we dragged our feet on, which is kind

307
00:16:43,495 --> 00:16:44,964
of funny because we're both lawyers.

308
00:16:44,964 --> 00:16:47,884
We know lots of trusts and
estates lawyers, but it was

309
00:16:47,885 --> 00:16:48,935
good to finally get it done.

310
00:16:48,935 --> 00:16:51,495
But for any listeners who
haven't got it done, just do it.

311
00:16:51,855 --> 00:16:56,085
Yeah, it feels like the dragging
your feet when it's your profession

312
00:16:56,375 --> 00:16:58,025
is a common thing that I hear about.

313
00:16:58,025 --> 00:17:01,694
It's like the doctor or the nurse
that decides that smoking is going

314
00:17:01,694 --> 00:17:03,005
to be the thing that they do, right?

315
00:17:03,015 --> 00:17:07,075
Like, they know better and yet
they can't quite get there.

316
00:17:07,095 --> 00:17:09,944
So, yeah, I think the same was
probably true of me and my wife.

317
00:17:09,944 --> 00:17:13,774
I think it took us a little while to
get our act together and to do that

318
00:17:13,785 --> 00:17:19,365
because, you know, I think, calls into
question your own mortality, right?

319
00:17:19,415 --> 00:17:23,085
And so it's an uncomfortable
thing to start to think about.

320
00:17:23,345 --> 00:17:24,704
What if I wasn't here anymore?

321
00:17:24,734 --> 00:17:26,185
Who's in charge of my kids?

322
00:17:26,605 --> 00:17:28,575
So, yeah, definitely very, very important.

323
00:17:28,845 --> 00:17:31,455
And I want to go back to what
you mentioned about the surrogacy

324
00:17:31,455 --> 00:17:32,875
and that pre birth order.

325
00:17:33,104 --> 00:17:34,624
That's only in a handful.

326
00:17:34,764 --> 00:17:38,155
full or a small number of states
as I understand it, right?

327
00:17:38,155 --> 00:17:42,785
It's not sort of the norm in a lot of
the country that you can be deemed the

328
00:17:42,785 --> 00:17:47,804
legal guardian or the legal parents
prior to the birth of the baby.

329
00:17:48,255 --> 00:17:48,604
Is that right?

330
00:17:48,605 --> 00:17:49,994
Yes, I think that's right.

331
00:17:50,005 --> 00:17:53,895
There is one surrogacy agency,
Creative Family Connections, I think

332
00:17:54,105 --> 00:17:57,465
that actually has a map where you
can go to any state and see what

333
00:17:57,465 --> 00:17:59,885
their laws related to surrogacy are.

334
00:18:00,115 --> 00:18:04,475
One thing I would mention, though,
is under the Constitution, states

335
00:18:04,475 --> 00:18:08,165
are supposed to give full faith and
credit to the edicts of other states.

336
00:18:08,175 --> 00:18:12,514
And so sometimes you can have
a situation where you get a pre

337
00:18:12,514 --> 00:18:15,504
birth order in one state, and it
might be honored in another state.

338
00:18:15,505 --> 00:18:20,230
So we had a weird situation
with Chase, where our surrogate,

339
00:18:20,450 --> 00:18:23,760
Holly, lives in Wyoming, which
does not do pre birth orders.

340
00:18:24,050 --> 00:18:26,980
Luckily, she lives near the border
of Colorado, and so our plan was

341
00:18:26,980 --> 00:18:28,340
for her to deliver in Colorado.

342
00:18:28,340 --> 00:18:30,699
And because the intent of the
parties was for her to deliver

343
00:18:30,700 --> 00:18:33,899
in Colorado, we could draw up a
surrogacy contract under Colorado law.

344
00:18:34,129 --> 00:18:37,269
And she moved out there a week or
two before the birth, just to make

345
00:18:37,270 --> 00:18:38,444
sure that she was in the state.

346
00:18:38,534 --> 00:18:42,325
When it happened, but one thing that
was interesting that our Wyoming lawyer

347
00:18:42,325 --> 00:18:46,314
told us was look in the unlikely event
that she goes into labor and delivers

348
00:18:46,355 --> 00:18:50,385
in Wyoming without getting the chance
to go to Colorado, we can take that

349
00:18:50,385 --> 00:18:53,474
Colorado pre birth order that you got
a few weeks or months ahead of time,

350
00:18:53,475 --> 00:18:56,904
and we can actually present it to the
Department of vital records in Wyoming.

351
00:18:56,904 --> 00:19:00,105
So again, kind of a little legal
nerdery, but you're right that it's

352
00:19:00,115 --> 00:19:03,945
not in every state, but sometimes you
can present it from another state.

353
00:19:04,135 --> 00:19:04,304
Oh,

354
00:19:04,304 --> 00:19:05,284
wow, that's fascinating.

355
00:19:05,334 --> 00:19:06,715
I had no idea about that.

356
00:19:06,745 --> 00:19:07,615
Very interesting.

357
00:19:08,255 --> 00:19:12,545
So I want to go back and talk a
little bit about you becoming a dad.

358
00:19:12,615 --> 00:19:17,454
Tell me about the earliest memory
that you have after becoming a father.

359
00:19:18,595 --> 00:19:21,825
Gosh, oh wow, that's, uh, that's tough.

360
00:19:21,825 --> 00:19:27,524
I remember going to the hospital to pick
up Harlan and one thing that ended up

361
00:19:27,524 --> 00:19:32,914
happening was our surrogate Kelly, what,
what happened was she actually near the

362
00:19:32,914 --> 00:19:36,274
end of the pregnancy got preeclampsia, a
high blood pressure, which is a very uh,

363
00:19:36,685 --> 00:19:41,785
Dangerous condition potentially and so
they had to induce and so Harlan arrived

364
00:19:41,795 --> 00:19:46,285
a little bit early and we were not already
in Colorado So we actually were not

365
00:19:46,305 --> 00:19:50,335
present for his birth, even though it was
our intention to be present for his birth

366
00:19:50,354 --> 00:19:52,255
We technically arrived I think at 11 p.

367
00:19:52,255 --> 00:19:56,520
m On the day of his birth and we got to
see him and I just remember We still have

368
00:19:56,530 --> 00:19:58,560
these pictures of us in the hospital.

369
00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:00,500
He was in the NICU
because he arrived early.

370
00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:04,060
I just remember thinking,
Oh my gosh, he's so tiny.

371
00:20:04,070 --> 00:20:06,480
He was just so fragile.

372
00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:08,790
He weighed a little
over five pounds maybe.

373
00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:11,240
And I just kind of thought,
Oh my gosh, we're going to be

374
00:20:11,350 --> 00:20:12,660
taking care of this human being.

375
00:20:12,660 --> 00:20:15,930
Like, how do you, how do these,
how these creatures survive?

376
00:20:15,930 --> 00:20:17,919
Like, it just seemed
crazy to us with chase.

377
00:20:17,919 --> 00:20:20,640
It was different because first of
all, we had been through it already.

378
00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:22,710
And second, He was a much bigger boy.

379
00:20:22,710 --> 00:20:25,670
I mean, he, right now he's a big
kid and he's very sturdy and I

380
00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:27,330
don't worry as much about him.

381
00:20:27,330 --> 00:20:30,029
But with Harlan, I just
remember thinking, Oh my gosh.

382
00:20:30,210 --> 00:20:30,530
Yeah.

383
00:20:30,530 --> 00:20:30,770
Five

384
00:20:30,770 --> 00:20:32,570
pounds is pretty, is pretty small.

385
00:20:32,639 --> 00:20:35,029
I mean, I think my Guinea
pig may weigh more than five

386
00:20:35,030 --> 00:20:35,210
pounds.

387
00:20:35,650 --> 00:20:35,730
Yeah.

388
00:20:35,730 --> 00:20:37,549
It was like five pounds
and five or six ounces.

389
00:20:37,549 --> 00:20:38,339
Something like that.

390
00:20:38,459 --> 00:20:38,859
Yeah.

391
00:20:38,900 --> 00:20:39,440
Wow.

392
00:20:39,789 --> 00:20:40,259
So.

393
00:20:40,794 --> 00:20:47,495
When you think about becoming a dad for
the first time and even maybe the second

394
00:20:47,495 --> 00:20:52,104
time, and you know, the first time it
sounds like you'd hop on an airplane and

395
00:20:52,104 --> 00:20:57,825
fly kind of rather unexpectedly or early,
what are some of the emotions that came

396
00:20:57,825 --> 00:21:03,715
up for you or for you and Zach when you
kind of first Realize that it was real.

397
00:21:03,874 --> 00:21:04,245
It was a

398
00:21:04,245 --> 00:21:04,804
real thing.

399
00:21:05,814 --> 00:21:08,955
Well, here's a funny story, actually.

400
00:21:09,805 --> 00:21:15,315
We transferred two embryos in our first
transfer, and one was a male embryo,

401
00:21:15,344 --> 00:21:18,974
genetically tied to me, and one was a
female embryo, genetically tied to Zach.

402
00:21:19,004 --> 00:21:24,450
And, The IVF doctor and the embryologist
said that the female embryo was the

403
00:21:24,460 --> 00:21:30,240
much more robust or higher graded Embryo
and so we assumed that that would be

404
00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:33,509
the one that would lead to a pregnancy
and when we found out that Kelly was

405
00:21:33,509 --> 00:21:35,339
Pregnant but with a singleton not twins.

406
00:21:35,339 --> 00:21:36,550
We assumed it was a girl.

407
00:21:36,550 --> 00:21:39,730
So For 20 weeks, we thought we were
having a girl and we were thinking

408
00:21:39,730 --> 00:21:44,770
about girl names and Kelly sent us
some little pink booties as a gift.

409
00:21:44,770 --> 00:21:46,330
And that was really our mindset.

410
00:21:46,350 --> 00:21:49,880
But then we went out to Colorado for the
20 week ultrasound and we're in the room.

411
00:21:50,225 --> 00:21:54,235
And the ultrasound technician says,
uh oh, and uh oh is never a good

412
00:21:54,235 --> 00:21:56,024
thing to hear at an ultrasound.

413
00:21:56,605 --> 00:21:57,575
And then we said, what?

414
00:21:57,595 --> 00:22:00,304
And she goes, you told me
you were having a girl?

415
00:22:00,405 --> 00:22:01,675
This ain't no girl.

416
00:22:01,914 --> 00:22:04,794
And so it turned out that
kind of made it real for us.

417
00:22:04,794 --> 00:22:05,199
We said, uh oh.

418
00:22:05,300 --> 00:22:09,300
Oh, he was sort of like the little
embryo that could, the male embryo, which

419
00:22:09,300 --> 00:22:13,640
the doctor gave very little chance of
leaving to a pregnancy or a birth, was

420
00:22:13,660 --> 00:22:18,259
actually the embryo that it implanted
and is now our six year old son.

421
00:22:18,259 --> 00:22:20,489
So that was just really weird, I guess.

422
00:22:20,509 --> 00:22:22,769
It was the emotion of surprise.

423
00:22:22,770 --> 00:22:23,704
We just were so, so surprised.

424
00:22:23,764 --> 00:22:24,195
shock.

425
00:22:24,195 --> 00:22:26,655
But I think it also just goes to
show that even though we have these

426
00:22:26,655 --> 00:22:30,074
amazing technological advances,
there's still so much we don't know

427
00:22:30,074 --> 00:22:31,915
and can't control about this process.

428
00:22:32,185 --> 00:22:34,605
Human beings were always trying
to control everything around us.

429
00:22:34,605 --> 00:22:39,824
But with this process, you just realize
and just even generally, even couples who

430
00:22:39,824 --> 00:22:41,264
are having kids the old fashioned way.

431
00:22:41,264 --> 00:22:43,485
It's just you can't control these things.

432
00:22:43,485 --> 00:22:47,074
There's just so much that
happens, both joyful and sad.

433
00:22:47,435 --> 00:22:47,915
Yeah,

434
00:22:47,995 --> 00:22:52,195
even when science is involved, there's a
fair amount of serendipity that happens.

435
00:22:52,224 --> 00:22:52,514
So.

436
00:22:53,004 --> 00:22:55,205
You know, you became a dad six years ago.

437
00:22:55,775 --> 00:23:00,035
What are some of the more surprising
things that you've discovered

438
00:23:00,235 --> 00:23:00,815
as a dad?

439
00:23:01,625 --> 00:23:02,225
Hmm.

440
00:23:02,595 --> 00:23:03,715
Oh, that's a tough.

441
00:23:04,524 --> 00:23:05,725
That's a tough question.

442
00:23:05,794 --> 00:23:06,784
You know, huh?

443
00:23:07,405 --> 00:23:09,504
I mean obviously again, this
is I'm sure other guests have

444
00:23:09,504 --> 00:23:10,615
told you this It's very cliche.

445
00:23:10,615 --> 00:23:14,030
I mean just It is definitely more work, I
think, in some ways than you anticipate.

446
00:23:14,030 --> 00:23:17,180
Like that is just definitely harder.

447
00:23:17,180 --> 00:23:20,140
And a lot of it is the so called
mental load or the emotional load,

448
00:23:20,140 --> 00:23:23,770
just the quote unquote work of
thinking about them and making sure

449
00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:27,839
they're okay and worrying about them
when you're away and all of that.

450
00:23:27,850 --> 00:23:30,659
You know, but I mean,
one thing that I really.

451
00:23:31,020 --> 00:23:36,850
enjoyed that I didn't really think
about beforehand was just how much fun

452
00:23:36,850 --> 00:23:40,040
it is to watch a young mind develop.

453
00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:44,160
And when Harlan asks questions,
you read a book and he doesn't know

454
00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:45,260
what he said, what does that mean?

455
00:23:45,430 --> 00:23:46,370
And you explain it.

456
00:23:46,390 --> 00:23:49,479
And then a week or two later, he uses
that word correctly in a sentence.

457
00:23:49,499 --> 00:23:55,645
It's just really cool to see How their
minds work and to see how quickly they

458
00:23:55,645 --> 00:24:01,495
can pick up information and how they can
deploy it in Fun or interesting ways.

459
00:24:01,514 --> 00:24:05,154
So for example the other day we were
at a playground and harlan wanted

460
00:24:05,155 --> 00:24:08,795
to go on these monkey bars in this
section of the park Playground that

461
00:24:08,795 --> 00:24:10,565
was kind of an adult playground.

462
00:24:10,695 --> 00:24:12,805
They were monkey bars, but I
think you could use them for

463
00:24:12,825 --> 00:24:14,515
chin ups and things like that.

464
00:24:14,515 --> 00:24:16,555
And it was really high off the
ground because this particular

465
00:24:16,555 --> 00:24:19,705
area of the playground was meant
for adults as a fitness challenge.

466
00:24:19,975 --> 00:24:22,824
And so I said to Harlan, well, I
don't know, I can lift you up there,

467
00:24:22,825 --> 00:24:24,925
but it's really far to the ground.

468
00:24:24,925 --> 00:24:26,494
And aren't you worried about falling?

469
00:24:26,654 --> 00:24:27,914
And he said, no, no, no.

470
00:24:28,014 --> 00:24:30,054
The floor, the ground had a padded mat.

471
00:24:30,245 --> 00:24:33,720
He touched the ground and he said,
This is relatively soft and I

472
00:24:33,750 --> 00:24:37,370
just thought, Oh, that's a good
use of relatively this padding.

473
00:24:37,370 --> 00:24:39,370
They put on the floor
of the adult playground.

474
00:24:39,639 --> 00:24:43,360
It wasn't exactly a pillow,
but it was relatively soft.

475
00:24:43,369 --> 00:24:45,559
So I thought, Oh, good use of that word.

476
00:24:45,850 --> 00:24:46,230
Yeah,

477
00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:47,449
that's pretty amazing.

478
00:24:47,449 --> 00:24:52,139
I don't know that I would consider a six
year old using the word relatively like.

479
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:54,010
Yeah, he said he used it properly.

480
00:24:54,250 --> 00:24:55,340
Yeah, that's awesome.

481
00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:56,150
That's awesome.

482
00:24:56,540 --> 00:24:59,990
So one of the things that a lot of
people talk about is that you can't

483
00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:05,040
Really anticipate what it's going to be
like to have kids until you have them.

484
00:25:05,780 --> 00:25:09,659
And yet a lot of people dispense
a lot of advice when they find out

485
00:25:09,659 --> 00:25:11,820
that you're going to become a parent.

486
00:25:12,270 --> 00:25:18,759
And so I'm curious to hear from you, if
you could rewind the clock six years back.

487
00:25:18,759 --> 00:25:20,490
So Harlan's not born yet.

488
00:25:20,870 --> 00:25:22,189
about to be born.

489
00:25:22,740 --> 00:25:26,790
And you've got, you know, you mentioned
all the grandparents are around.

490
00:25:27,300 --> 00:25:29,660
They're probably dispensing advice.

491
00:25:29,660 --> 00:25:31,250
You've got friends dispensing advice.

492
00:25:31,260 --> 00:25:37,719
So what advice would you give your
younger self six years ago if you

493
00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:39,499
could go back in time and do that?

494
00:25:40,159 --> 00:25:42,170
So I guess I have two pieces of advice.

495
00:25:42,170 --> 00:25:43,740
One is a piece of meta advice.

496
00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:47,020
And that piece of advice is
take the advice that works

497
00:25:47,020 --> 00:25:48,500
for you and ignore the rest.

498
00:25:48,670 --> 00:25:52,165
Because as you mentioned, Everyone is
going to offer you advice, anyone who's

499
00:25:52,175 --> 00:25:57,625
had a kid, and you know, my parents,
my in laws, friends, and some of the

500
00:25:57,635 --> 00:26:00,705
things are going to work for you, and
other things are not, because every

501
00:26:00,705 --> 00:26:02,415
family and every kid is different.

502
00:26:02,525 --> 00:26:04,475
And some people will swear
by the advice they give you.

503
00:26:04,485 --> 00:26:07,485
They will say, oh, this is the way
to sleep train your child, or this is

504
00:26:07,485 --> 00:26:10,765
what you need to feed them so they'll
grow, or this is the enrichment

505
00:26:10,765 --> 00:26:11,885
program you need to enroll them in.

506
00:26:11,885 --> 00:26:15,894
And I just say, look, listen
with an open mind, and do it.

507
00:26:16,004 --> 00:26:20,535
Try lots of things out, trial and error,
enroll your kid in different activities,

508
00:26:20,735 --> 00:26:22,675
try different foods for them, whatever.

509
00:26:22,825 --> 00:26:26,314
But at the end of the day, follow
the advice that works and ignore the

510
00:26:26,314 --> 00:26:28,054
rest and don't feel bad about it.

511
00:26:28,344 --> 00:26:33,294
The advice advice, I guess I would
say is don't be afraid to ask for

512
00:26:33,334 --> 00:26:35,544
and if necessary, pay for help.

513
00:26:35,804 --> 00:26:40,770
I think demands on parents are higher
than they were in Our parents age and

514
00:26:40,780 --> 00:26:44,780
especially I would say for dads because
I think there used to be this thought of

515
00:26:44,780 --> 00:26:48,420
oh The dad's just the breadwinner and he
just shows up on the nights or weekends

516
00:26:48,420 --> 00:26:51,779
and he just works hard and makes money But
there's now an expectation that no whether

517
00:26:51,779 --> 00:26:57,139
you're a dad or a mom We're a working
parent or not, you're expected to go to

518
00:26:57,139 --> 00:26:59,030
things you're expected to be involved.

519
00:26:59,219 --> 00:27:02,820
There are many more emails that go
home and have assignments where the

520
00:27:02,820 --> 00:27:04,179
parents are supposed to be involved.

521
00:27:04,189 --> 00:27:06,860
We can't just outsource
this to a nanny or a tutor.

522
00:27:07,149 --> 00:27:09,770
And there's a lot of work.

523
00:27:09,770 --> 00:27:10,649
The demands are higher.

524
00:27:10,650 --> 00:27:14,895
And so What I would say is don't be afraid
to ask for help or pay for help because

525
00:27:15,185 --> 00:27:18,855
I think some some parents want to be
Sort of like the superhero parent like

526
00:27:19,004 --> 00:27:23,485
I can do it all I don't need anybody's
help But you just get overwhelmed and

527
00:27:23,485 --> 00:27:27,564
there's no shame in calling up the
grandparents at the last minute saying

528
00:27:27,564 --> 00:27:32,375
hey Harlan has to have an emergency dental
appointment, but Zach has to be in the

529
00:27:32,375 --> 00:27:34,765
city and I have a podcast interview.

530
00:27:34,775 --> 00:27:36,295
Would you mind taking him?

531
00:27:36,305 --> 00:27:41,485
Like, don't feel guilty or even on the
side of, you know, help in terms of

532
00:27:41,495 --> 00:27:45,435
nannies or babysitters or what have
you, we dragged our feet on that because

533
00:27:45,955 --> 00:27:49,684
I think it can sometimes be hard to
hire because you think this person

534
00:27:49,684 --> 00:27:51,245
is somebody you have to trust a lot.

535
00:27:51,245 --> 00:27:51,715
And so.

536
00:27:52,310 --> 00:27:57,019
We kind of delayed for a long time, but
once we actually plunged in and found

537
00:27:57,019 --> 00:28:01,499
folks we trust, including a roster of
potential babysitters, it's great now.

538
00:28:01,509 --> 00:28:05,870
Like if we need help, we don't have to
just depend on, say, the grandparents.

539
00:28:05,909 --> 00:28:08,919
We have multiple people that
we can turn to for help.

540
00:28:08,919 --> 00:28:12,749
So it is like that old saying, it
takes a village to raise a child.

541
00:28:12,749 --> 00:28:16,479
So I would say get help, including if
you can afford it, pay for help and don't

542
00:28:16,479 --> 00:28:18,279
feel bad about it or guilty about it.

543
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:19,649
That makes a lot of sense.

544
00:28:19,970 --> 00:28:23,800
I wanted to go back to what you just
said about kind of finding help.

545
00:28:23,830 --> 00:28:28,479
You mentioned you have an au pair,
and I'm very curious about this.

546
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:32,050
We also have at one point
in our lives had an au pair.

547
00:28:32,419 --> 00:28:36,330
You have to interview these folks,
like you're interviewing an employee.

548
00:28:36,759 --> 00:28:40,310
And you can definitely make mistakes
when you're finding childcare.

549
00:28:40,310 --> 00:28:46,535
So have you developed any particular
approach that helps you kind of Ask

550
00:28:46,555 --> 00:28:51,175
the right questions or figure out like
how good is this person going to be as

551
00:28:51,175 --> 00:28:54,275
a caregiver when they're not a blood
relative of mine or something like

552
00:28:54,275 --> 00:28:54,515
that.

553
00:28:55,025 --> 00:28:55,605
Sure.

554
00:28:55,614 --> 00:28:58,235
So, lawyers love hypotheticals.

555
00:28:58,355 --> 00:29:02,605
And so, I think sometimes it's
good to give them hypotheticals.

556
00:29:02,605 --> 00:29:07,375
Well, you're dealing with one baby
and then suddenly the fire alarm

557
00:29:07,375 --> 00:29:08,145
goes, you know, off or whatever.

558
00:29:08,145 --> 00:29:10,915
You can kind of, you know, Say, well,
what would you do and put down the

559
00:29:10,915 --> 00:29:14,115
baby or go deal with the alarm, you
know, like just kind of see how they

560
00:29:14,115 --> 00:29:16,355
would address a particular situation.

561
00:29:16,545 --> 00:29:20,195
And then again, just kind of
going to seeing how they are.

562
00:29:20,675 --> 00:29:22,704
Oh, pairs are different, of course,
because you have to interview

563
00:29:22,704 --> 00:29:24,754
them for over Skype or FaceTime.

564
00:29:24,754 --> 00:29:29,905
But for a nanny or a babysitter, We like
to have them come in person and kind of

565
00:29:29,905 --> 00:29:33,075
do a trial for a couple of hours or a day.

566
00:29:33,085 --> 00:29:36,404
And I work from home a fair amount
of the time, and Zach can as well.

567
00:29:36,404 --> 00:29:38,694
And we can basically see how they do.

568
00:29:38,745 --> 00:29:42,495
And we can see how they interact
and how they treat the kids.

569
00:29:42,495 --> 00:29:46,300
And look, you know, it may be
different because We're there and

570
00:29:46,310 --> 00:29:48,340
they want to make a good impression.

571
00:29:48,350 --> 00:29:51,700
But I think you can still get a
sense, especially over the span of a

572
00:29:51,700 --> 00:29:55,269
couple of hours, and you can see their
demeanor and how they handle things

573
00:29:55,270 --> 00:29:57,330
if the kids get difficult or whatnot.

574
00:29:57,340 --> 00:30:02,450
So I think those are two
practical pieces of advice.

575
00:30:02,500 --> 00:30:02,700
Yeah.

576
00:30:02,700 --> 00:30:06,850
I like the on the job interview
essentially, and this is a thing.

577
00:30:07,260 --> 00:30:11,880
By the way, that a lot of tech companies
are starting to employ with actual hiring

578
00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:16,240
of full time people is doing sort of
like a Pretrial or something like that.

579
00:30:16,249 --> 00:30:17,250
So I love that idea.

580
00:30:18,009 --> 00:30:19,650
All right, let's talk
about parental guilt.

581
00:30:20,250 --> 00:30:27,665
So this is something that You know if
we were a podcast talking to moms You

582
00:30:27,665 --> 00:30:34,235
might hear this topic asked a lot, but
very few people ask men about this.

583
00:30:34,255 --> 00:30:38,874
And I don't think men talk about
this very much and yet they still

584
00:30:38,874 --> 00:30:42,615
feel it because you brought this
up in our prep for this call.

585
00:30:42,624 --> 00:30:42,904
So.

586
00:30:43,570 --> 00:30:47,520
Tell me about this feeling of
parental guilt or feeling like

587
00:30:47,530 --> 00:30:50,280
you're not good enough as a dad.

588
00:30:50,690 --> 00:30:55,259
So this is something that we deal with
a lot, that Zach and I deal with a lot.

589
00:30:55,260 --> 00:31:00,080
We always feel that we are falling
down on both the parenting thing and

590
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:03,379
the job thing, that there's just never
enough time or we're not doing a good

591
00:31:03,379 --> 00:31:05,709
enough job at one or the other or both.

592
00:31:06,089 --> 00:31:08,239
And I would also say that.

593
00:31:08,485 --> 00:31:11,805
For me, I definitely agree with you
that there's a gendered component.

594
00:31:11,805 --> 00:31:13,795
This is something that
moms talk about a lot.

595
00:31:14,155 --> 00:31:16,865
But in our relationship, Zach does a lot.

596
00:31:16,875 --> 00:31:19,755
I think we split things, you
know, pretty evenly in many ways.

597
00:31:19,815 --> 00:31:24,975
But I guess I'm closer to the mom
in the sense that I am the one

598
00:31:24,975 --> 00:31:27,675
who's home or in the vicinity.

599
00:31:27,675 --> 00:31:29,525
I sometimes go to a
nearby co working space.

600
00:31:29,535 --> 00:31:32,505
So if something arises during
the day, I can rush to it.

601
00:31:32,745 --> 00:31:34,905
I'm the one with the
more flexible schedule.

602
00:31:35,155 --> 00:31:37,744
I do work fewer hours.

603
00:31:37,785 --> 00:31:42,594
I do deal with more of the logistics
in terms of the household and dealing

604
00:31:42,594 --> 00:31:48,575
with our caregivers and buying the
groceries and things like that.

605
00:31:48,955 --> 00:31:53,375
And so, I think in some ways I
come closer to playing the mom

606
00:31:53,465 --> 00:31:55,005
role and I do have that guilt.

607
00:31:55,005 --> 00:31:59,865
I just always feel bad that I'm
not doing a good enough job at

608
00:31:59,875 --> 00:32:02,884
either my job or being a parent.

609
00:32:02,935 --> 00:32:04,895
And this is one other interesting thing.

610
00:32:04,905 --> 00:32:10,905
So before Harlan arrived, I, Had
in my head the openness to the

611
00:32:10,905 --> 00:32:12,255
idea of being a stay at home dad.

612
00:32:12,255 --> 00:32:15,275
I thought to myself, you know,
I had a friend who was a teacher

613
00:32:15,275 --> 00:32:18,435
and she loved her teaching career
and she planned to go back to it.

614
00:32:18,435 --> 00:32:22,275
But then after her daughter was born, she
just knew in her heart, you know what, I

615
00:32:22,275 --> 00:32:24,304
actually want to be a full time parent.

616
00:32:24,695 --> 00:32:25,904
And I was open to that.

617
00:32:25,904 --> 00:32:28,554
I thought to myself, you know what,
let me see how this is because

618
00:32:28,554 --> 00:32:31,255
empirically, I won't know what it's
like to be a parent until I'm a parent.

619
00:32:31,705 --> 00:32:36,665
And when Harlan arrived, You know,
there's a lot of slow time when

620
00:32:36,665 --> 00:32:40,595
you have a baby, they sleep a lot,
they're not talking to you, et cetera.

621
00:32:40,845 --> 00:32:42,605
They're crying, they're
pooping, what have you.

622
00:32:43,005 --> 00:32:44,225
And to be honest.

623
00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:49,810
I was bored out of my mind for long
stretches of my paternity leave or

624
00:32:49,810 --> 00:32:53,960
my parental leave and I was bored out
of my mind for long stretches until

625
00:32:54,190 --> 00:32:58,360
he could talk and I also realized
that I really enjoyed my career and

626
00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:01,480
my career is very important to me and
I came to the realization that no,

627
00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:05,580
I did not want to be a stay at home
dad and Even that made me feel bad.

628
00:33:05,670 --> 00:33:08,940
Like, well, like it is a great
thing to be a stay at home parent.

629
00:33:08,970 --> 00:33:11,780
It's a really noble thing and a
wonderful thing, and it will be

630
00:33:11,780 --> 00:33:12,990
a great thing for our family.

631
00:33:12,999 --> 00:33:14,550
And yet I don't want to do it.

632
00:33:14,579 --> 00:33:16,240
So I felt bad about that.

633
00:33:17,750 --> 00:33:18,890
That's really interesting.

634
00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:23,820
When you have those times, those
moments where you're feeling.

635
00:33:24,260 --> 00:33:26,760
That guilt, or you're feeling
like you're not good enough.

636
00:33:27,340 --> 00:33:30,470
What do you do to kind of pull
yourself out of that funk?

637
00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:33,529
My guess is scrolling
Instagram is not the answer.

638
00:33:35,110 --> 00:33:36,070
That might actually make

639
00:33:36,070 --> 00:33:36,969
you feel worse.

640
00:33:37,550 --> 00:33:39,840
Well, you know, it's funny in general.

641
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:42,980
I think it is not good to
compare yourself to others.

642
00:33:42,980 --> 00:33:46,100
I did it for much of my life and I
think it led to all kinds of unhealthy

643
00:33:46,310 --> 00:33:51,000
psychology and pathology, but whenever
I feel not good enough, I think about

644
00:33:51,335 --> 00:33:55,505
All the parents out there who are
either a struggling just like me or be

645
00:33:55,725 --> 00:33:57,955
doing an even worse job than we are.

646
00:33:57,965 --> 00:34:02,385
So I just kind of think, you know
what, even if we're not having the

647
00:34:02,395 --> 00:34:06,644
best day today as parents and maybe I
lost my temper or something like that.

648
00:34:06,914 --> 00:34:12,535
I do know that there are parents out
there who are again not doing as good

649
00:34:12,535 --> 00:34:14,104
a job, which is really sad because.

650
00:34:14,255 --> 00:34:17,765
Kids are so precious, and they're
really just such a, you know, precious

651
00:34:17,765 --> 00:34:20,055
resource for really society, the nation.

652
00:34:20,055 --> 00:34:23,195
And so, when you think about parents
mistreating their kids, or neglecting

653
00:34:23,195 --> 00:34:25,965
their kids, or, you know, not
adequately providing for them, or what

654
00:34:25,975 --> 00:34:27,874
have you, it really makes you sad.

655
00:34:28,065 --> 00:34:30,795
At the same time, I do think
though, well, you know, I'm trying

656
00:34:30,795 --> 00:34:32,535
my best, I'm doing what I can.

657
00:34:33,070 --> 00:34:36,919
I have a friend, Carly Aroldi, she also
has a podcast, a parenting podcast, and

658
00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:40,460
I just love the title of Carly's podcast,
and I often think of it, and the title

659
00:34:40,460 --> 00:34:44,530
of her podcast is Good Enough Parenting,
so I don't have to be the perfect

660
00:34:44,530 --> 00:34:46,810
dad, I just need to be good enough.

661
00:34:47,070 --> 00:34:48,420
Good enough parenting.

662
00:34:48,469 --> 00:34:50,799
We'll link to that in the show
notes, I'll have to check that

663
00:34:50,799 --> 00:34:52,000
out, that's really interesting.

664
00:34:52,940 --> 00:35:02,260
Have you developed any Particular
frameworks or guardrails or systems that

665
00:35:02,260 --> 00:35:04,790
really help you and Zach as parents.

666
00:35:05,419 --> 00:35:05,869
Sure.

667
00:35:05,879 --> 00:35:08,319
So one thing, and this
is again, nothing new.

668
00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:11,520
We do try to have routines or schedules.

669
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:14,565
So we have a bedtime routine at 8.

670
00:35:14,815 --> 00:35:15,465
30.

671
00:35:15,505 --> 00:35:18,875
We take Harlan up to his room and we
take turns reading to him and while one

672
00:35:18,875 --> 00:35:23,145
of them is reading to him, the other
one is giving Chase his last feeding of

673
00:35:23,155 --> 00:35:25,174
the evening before we put him to bed.

674
00:35:25,354 --> 00:35:28,265
So one, I think have a
routine, have a schedule.

675
00:35:28,545 --> 00:35:33,380
Two, We do set limits for things
and children in a weird way

676
00:35:33,510 --> 00:35:37,340
appreciate limits or rules because
they like something concrete.

677
00:35:37,340 --> 00:35:40,509
I thought initially that Harlan was
going to rebel against our rules, but

678
00:35:40,639 --> 00:35:42,219
he's actually taken to them really well.

679
00:35:42,219 --> 00:35:45,670
So we limit his screen time
with a time limit each day.

680
00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:50,870
And we limit his intake of what we
call treats like cookies and ice cream.

681
00:35:50,870 --> 00:35:53,020
We used to just let him have
a treat whenever we wanted.

682
00:35:53,260 --> 00:35:56,930
Now we have specified days, which
are treat days and non treat days.

683
00:35:56,940 --> 00:36:02,710
So I think having rules, concrete rules
that the kids can follow is helpful.

684
00:36:02,720 --> 00:36:02,940
So.

685
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:06,370
Those are two things I would
mention, how to schedule it or a

686
00:36:06,370 --> 00:36:08,840
timetable and have clear rules.

687
00:36:08,950 --> 00:36:09,330
Okay.

688
00:36:09,380 --> 00:36:10,650
Maybe this is the lawyer talking.

689
00:36:10,660 --> 00:36:12,220
I mean, lawyers love clear rules.

690
00:36:12,380 --> 00:36:12,770
Well, I

691
00:36:12,770 --> 00:36:15,739
think that that's good schedule
and kind of clear rules.

692
00:36:15,739 --> 00:36:20,429
There's something about kids that
they really thrive when they sort of

693
00:36:20,429 --> 00:36:22,660
know what the expectation is, right?

694
00:36:22,949 --> 00:36:23,319
Yes.

695
00:36:23,510 --> 00:36:26,040
I find that that's been
beneficial for us as well.

696
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:31,110
How has your parenting
style changed from Harlan?

697
00:36:31,490 --> 00:36:34,080
to now your eight month old

698
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:34,900
chase.

699
00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:39,190
So this is again, I'm so, you
know, so familiar with cliched,

700
00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:42,210
but we are a lot more relaxed.

701
00:36:42,410 --> 00:36:44,909
We're not afraid that, I mean,
knock on wood, he's very healthy,

702
00:36:44,910 --> 00:36:47,210
but like we're afraid, not afraid
where he's going to die on us.

703
00:36:47,230 --> 00:36:50,450
And we are a lot less, I guess, kind of.

704
00:36:50,940 --> 00:36:53,840
OCD or internal retentive or
whatever you want to call it.

705
00:36:54,070 --> 00:36:59,120
So for Harlan, we had this app called baby
connect where you could log everything.

706
00:36:59,350 --> 00:36:59,710
Yeah.

707
00:36:59,710 --> 00:37:03,479
And I made all our caregivers
log everything religiously.

708
00:37:03,479 --> 00:37:05,869
Oh, he pooped at this time and
this is what it looked like.

709
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:08,940
And he ate this many ounces and
his temperature when he was sick

710
00:37:08,950 --> 00:37:10,419
was this temperature at this hour.

711
00:37:10,459 --> 00:37:13,839
And I just, I drove everybody
crazy, but I was just, it was

712
00:37:13,849 --> 00:37:15,279
like billing hours for a lawyer.

713
00:37:15,279 --> 00:37:18,989
I was just insisting that everybody
update baby connect all the time.

714
00:37:19,159 --> 00:37:19,429
Yeah.

715
00:37:19,439 --> 00:37:20,579
And now with chase.

716
00:37:20,910 --> 00:37:23,120
We didn't even bother with baby connect.

717
00:37:23,140 --> 00:37:26,430
We're just like, whatever,
you know, he cries, check his

718
00:37:26,430 --> 00:37:28,280
diaper, feed him, don't feed it.

719
00:37:28,290 --> 00:37:34,409
Like we are just, you know, we are
really much less, you know, sort

720
00:37:34,409 --> 00:37:37,889
of just, you know, you could argue,
well, oh, are we not as good parents?

721
00:37:37,889 --> 00:37:41,000
We're less vigilant, but I think
we're kind of more relaxed and

722
00:37:41,010 --> 00:37:42,440
maybe in some ways more healthy.

723
00:37:42,770 --> 00:37:42,990
Yeah,

724
00:37:42,990 --> 00:37:43,910
that's really interesting.

725
00:37:43,910 --> 00:37:46,090
I mean, everyone sort
of goes through this.

726
00:37:46,150 --> 00:37:49,120
If you have a second kid of just.

727
00:37:49,635 --> 00:37:55,785
Well, we were really particular on
that first kid and he or she, or

728
00:37:55,785 --> 00:38:00,125
they are fine and you know, there's
probably some things that didn't

729
00:38:00,125 --> 00:38:03,825
matter as much that we did or things
that we paid too close attention to.

730
00:38:03,825 --> 00:38:04,514
So maybe we can just.

731
00:38:05,185 --> 00:38:07,485
You can take the foot off the
gas a little bit about that.

732
00:38:07,865 --> 00:38:09,655
That's a really, really good perspective.

733
00:38:10,165 --> 00:38:14,005
So I have found that
partnership is super important.

734
00:38:14,015 --> 00:38:19,225
When you have kids, you would probably
agree with this assessment, but it is also

735
00:38:19,234 --> 00:38:24,305
one of those things where it's really hard
to agree a hundred percent of the time

736
00:38:24,315 --> 00:38:25,745
with your partner or with your spouse.

737
00:38:26,105 --> 00:38:31,495
So what is something that you and
your husband don't necessarily agree

738
00:38:31,495 --> 00:38:33,445
on when it comes to, to parenting?

739
00:38:34,820 --> 00:38:35,990
That's interesting.

740
00:38:36,050 --> 00:38:44,210
I would say that I am, in general,
much more lax, and I honestly think

741
00:38:44,219 --> 00:38:46,959
Zach's approach is very good in a way.

742
00:38:46,980 --> 00:38:50,800
He's the one who has come up with a lot of
our rules, and he's the one who enforces

743
00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:55,380
them, and I can sometimes be a bit of a
squish, which is why Harlan often comes

744
00:38:55,380 --> 00:38:58,500
to me to ask for things rather than Zach.

745
00:38:58,950 --> 00:39:02,190
So I just think that in general, and
this is not unusual, there's usually one

746
00:39:02,190 --> 00:39:05,580
parent who's more of the disciplinarian
or what have you, but I just am much

747
00:39:05,590 --> 00:39:09,960
more relaxed, which is kind of funny
because people who know us would probably

748
00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:15,690
say that we're both a little type A and
we're both kind of very controlly in

749
00:39:15,690 --> 00:39:22,000
some ways, but I think when it comes to
kids, I am some ways the more relaxed

750
00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:26,020
one, which is just weird because I'm
very not relaxed about all these other

751
00:39:26,060 --> 00:39:28,650
things that I handle for the household.

752
00:39:29,150 --> 00:39:31,660
So it's just, yeah, it's
funny, but I guess that's one.

753
00:39:31,985 --> 00:39:34,875
Point of disagreement and I'm
usually like just like let him do it.

754
00:39:34,875 --> 00:39:35,485
It's fine.

755
00:39:35,515 --> 00:39:39,615
And Zach is the one who wants to hold the
line and intellectually I realize Zach

756
00:39:39,615 --> 00:39:43,205
is right, but sometimes in the moment,
it's just so much easier to give in.

757
00:39:43,224 --> 00:39:48,594
And you know, in defense of my
view, one thing that parents know

758
00:39:48,595 --> 00:39:49,815
is you have to pick your battles.

759
00:39:49,835 --> 00:39:52,645
You can't make your kid
do everything perfectly.

760
00:39:52,645 --> 00:39:55,799
And so sometimes you just got to throw
your hands up and say, Okay, okay.

761
00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:59,240
I know that, yeah, I don't want to
set a bad precedent, but you got me.

762
00:39:59,710 --> 00:40:00,190
Yeah.

763
00:40:00,570 --> 00:40:03,460
One of the things that I think is
interesting, and I wanted to ask you

764
00:40:03,460 --> 00:40:08,670
about this from the perspective of a two
lawyer household, so lawyers are very

765
00:40:08,679 --> 00:40:12,519
into obviously logical appeals, right?

766
00:40:12,519 --> 00:40:15,669
And sort of following the
logic chain or the legal chain.

767
00:40:16,229 --> 00:40:19,579
You can't always make logical
appeals with children.

768
00:40:19,999 --> 00:40:22,599
And so in fact, most of
the time you can't, right?

769
00:40:22,609 --> 00:40:23,349
Not until they're.

770
00:40:23,755 --> 00:40:24,405
I don't know.

771
00:40:24,555 --> 00:40:28,285
I haven't found the time yet and my
kids are even a little bit older.

772
00:40:28,295 --> 00:40:33,155
So how did you wrestle with like,
well, the law is very straightforward

773
00:40:33,155 --> 00:40:36,425
and kind of by the book and we follow
the precedents and things like that.

774
00:40:36,815 --> 00:40:41,715
And then you have a kid or two
kids and kids are just like, Nope.

775
00:40:41,935 --> 00:40:42,875
There's no rule book.

776
00:40:42,885 --> 00:40:43,815
There's no precedent.

777
00:40:43,835 --> 00:40:44,875
There's nothing like that.

778
00:40:44,925 --> 00:40:47,895
Was that a hard thing to wrestle
with for you or for Zach?

779
00:40:48,555 --> 00:40:53,304
Yes, it was definitely a tough adjustment,
especially that age around two or three.

780
00:40:53,304 --> 00:40:55,444
People speak of the terrible
twos, but for Harlan, I would

781
00:40:55,445 --> 00:40:57,245
say it was the terrible threes.

782
00:40:57,584 --> 00:41:01,605
Now that he's older, we actually can
have negotiations with him or explain

783
00:41:01,605 --> 00:41:04,865
why we have a rule or offer a reward
or threaten to take something away.

784
00:41:04,995 --> 00:41:08,004
But when he was two or
three, he just did not care.

785
00:41:08,014 --> 00:41:08,715
He just wouldn't.

786
00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:14,560
Do the things that we were asking him to
do and it was endlessly Frustrating and

787
00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:19,350
we didn't really have a good answer to it
And I don't know when chase reaches that

788
00:41:19,359 --> 00:41:23,850
age if I will still have a good answer to
it one thing that I'm not good about that

789
00:41:23,850 --> 00:41:29,950
Zack is much better about is I can have a
temper and I will sometimes raise my voice

790
00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:33,310
and then I'll often realize I shouldn't
have done that or I'll apologize.

791
00:41:33,350 --> 00:41:36,260
But sometimes in the moment, I,
I just almost can't help myself.

792
00:41:36,260 --> 00:41:38,920
I sometimes feel almost like my
blood boiling, like a physical

793
00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:41,340
reaction when Harlan does something
that drives me up the wall.

794
00:41:41,340 --> 00:41:45,239
And so I'm just going to try to be
better about that with Chase and just

795
00:41:45,510 --> 00:41:50,410
take a few deep breaths or, you know,
step outside and just whatever, let a

796
00:41:50,410 --> 00:41:52,130
yell out in the backyard or something.

797
00:41:52,170 --> 00:41:56,170
Let's just, I need to find ways to blow
off steam without taking it out on my kid.

798
00:41:56,170 --> 00:41:56,220
Yeah.

799
00:41:56,480 --> 00:41:57,370
Yeah, I think

800
00:41:57,370 --> 00:41:58,300
that's really good.

801
00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:01,210
I wanted to ask you
parenting can be frustrating.

802
00:42:01,260 --> 00:42:02,500
It's inevitable, right?

803
00:42:02,500 --> 00:42:04,550
Like kids are designed to test boundaries.

804
00:42:04,550 --> 00:42:05,690
It's how they learn, right?

805
00:42:05,690 --> 00:42:08,899
They're like the Raptors testing
defenses in Jurassic Park.

806
00:42:09,150 --> 00:42:13,355
So when you start to get drained or you
feel yourself getting frustrated, What

807
00:42:13,355 --> 00:42:17,885
are the ways that you kind of collect
yourself, recharge your batteries,

808
00:42:17,885 --> 00:42:20,575
like, hit the reset button for you?

809
00:42:20,935 --> 00:42:23,775
So, definitely sometimes
just stepping away.

810
00:42:23,835 --> 00:42:26,174
Like, I just kind of have to,
you know, take a walk around the

811
00:42:26,175 --> 00:42:27,874
block or something like that.

812
00:42:28,185 --> 00:42:30,534
I think that can definitely help.

813
00:42:30,795 --> 00:42:36,095
Honestly, sometimes And again, this can
also turn into a crutch or a bad thing,

814
00:42:36,095 --> 00:42:41,205
but sometimes I can maybe reset myself
by just doing a little bit of work on

815
00:42:41,274 --> 00:42:45,715
taking my mind off things, and it's one
thing that's interesting that's both

816
00:42:45,715 --> 00:42:49,555
good and bad, especially for somebody
like me, and I expect somebody like you

817
00:42:49,555 --> 00:42:53,035
is because you don't have a traditional
job where you schlep into an office.

818
00:42:53,510 --> 00:42:58,200
The boundaries between work and
life are just much more porous.

819
00:42:58,340 --> 00:43:02,520
And so when Zach comes home, he
works very hard and he takes calls

820
00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:05,820
from partners and clients after
hours and on weekends all the time.

821
00:43:06,009 --> 00:43:09,219
But generally, when he comes home,
unless something is really blowing

822
00:43:09,219 --> 00:43:11,399
up, he can often kind of take it easy.

823
00:43:11,399 --> 00:43:15,550
Whereas for me, I might be chasing
after something trying to publish

824
00:43:15,550 --> 00:43:19,250
a story or just I feel like in some
ways I'm always working, but sometimes

825
00:43:19,250 --> 00:43:21,060
it can just be a good little reset.

826
00:43:21,060 --> 00:43:21,400
You know what?

827
00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:26,350
Let me just do something different for
20 or 30 minutes and work also will

828
00:43:26,359 --> 00:43:30,540
calm you down because you're not really
supposed to lose your temper with people

829
00:43:30,540 --> 00:43:31,799
you're dealing with professionally.

830
00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:33,790
And so that can sometimes be helpful.

831
00:43:34,360 --> 00:43:38,220
Yeah, I love that last
couple questions for you.

832
00:43:38,585 --> 00:43:41,795
What would you say is a mistake
that you've made as a father?

833
00:43:43,195 --> 00:43:44,535
Oh, gosh.

834
00:43:44,555 --> 00:43:49,224
I mean, I'm sure we've
made so, um, so many.

835
00:43:49,265 --> 00:43:54,004
I mean, I would definitely say, kind
of going back on the theme of rules

836
00:43:54,005 --> 00:43:58,614
and discipline, we were, I think, a
little too late to set up rules or

837
00:43:58,614 --> 00:44:01,125
boundaries, and we would let Harlan eat.

838
00:44:01,515 --> 00:44:06,285
Sweets whenever we wanted and he could
do the iPad whenever we wanted because

839
00:44:06,475 --> 00:44:10,955
one reason I will say that's a mistake is
It's a lot harder to put the genie back

840
00:44:10,965 --> 00:44:16,755
in the bottle It's a lot harder to impose
a limit after you have had no limits

841
00:44:16,914 --> 00:44:20,395
So whenever you are letting your kid do
something new whether it's in a class Eat

842
00:44:20,395 --> 00:44:24,995
a new food that they love or use a certain
device or gaming system or what have you.

843
00:44:25,165 --> 00:44:29,345
I think it's good to have the boundaries
and the limits set up upfront rather than

844
00:44:29,345 --> 00:44:31,015
trying to impose them after the fact.

845
00:44:31,315 --> 00:44:31,664
That's a

846
00:44:31,664 --> 00:44:32,425
really good one.

847
00:44:32,965 --> 00:44:38,380
So we've made really incredible
strides, obviously, in the last I don't

848
00:44:38,380 --> 00:44:44,110
know, decade, decade plus around same
sex parenting and things like that.

849
00:44:44,460 --> 00:44:48,600
But also I'm wondering, you know,
Harlan is getting to the age where and

850
00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:53,700
probably was there earlier where he's
aware that like his family maybe looks

851
00:44:53,700 --> 00:44:56,920
a little bit different than some of
the families that his friends have.

852
00:44:56,920 --> 00:44:59,900
And I think you start to realize this
maybe when you go to school and you

853
00:44:59,900 --> 00:45:01,290
meet other kids and stuff like that.

854
00:45:01,740 --> 00:45:06,430
How have you talked to Harlan about,
Having gay parents and about sort of

855
00:45:06,430 --> 00:45:11,840
thinking about that and as he I know,
New Jersey can be a fairly progressive

856
00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:12,930
place, especially where you live.

857
00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:17,160
But as he run into any challenges
or come home with questions or

858
00:45:17,160 --> 00:45:18,720
anything like that for you and Zach.

859
00:45:19,570 --> 00:45:21,440
Yeah, that's a great question, Adam.

860
00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:26,380
So we've tried to be very open with
him about how he came into the world.

861
00:45:26,380 --> 00:45:28,910
He doesn't necessarily understand
everything about how surrogacy works,

862
00:45:28,980 --> 00:45:33,189
but we talk about how there was a nice
woman and you were in her tummy for nine

863
00:45:33,190 --> 00:45:35,050
months or a little less than nine months.

864
00:45:35,050 --> 00:45:40,550
But we do explain that and he's FaceTimed
with Kelly and things like that, but

865
00:45:40,550 --> 00:45:43,760
we do explain to him that families come
in different shapes and sizes and some

866
00:45:43,760 --> 00:45:47,840
people have one mom or one dad or two
moms or two dads or a mom and a dad.

867
00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:48,590
And so he's.

868
00:45:49,115 --> 00:45:52,715
kind of accepted that explanation,
but there have been a couple of

869
00:45:52,715 --> 00:45:56,425
times where he's really kind of
wondered about the lack of a mom.

870
00:45:56,895 --> 00:46:00,065
And one time he got into an
argument with us and he said,

871
00:46:00,065 --> 00:46:01,425
well, you don't really have a mom.

872
00:46:01,685 --> 00:46:04,245
You know, there was an egg
donor and there was a surrogate.

873
00:46:04,245 --> 00:46:05,254
He goes, no, no, no, no, no.

874
00:46:05,254 --> 00:46:08,465
He said, if I didn't have
a mom, I wouldn't exist.

875
00:46:08,665 --> 00:46:12,435
And so we're like, okay, like
you were in Kelly's tummy.

876
00:46:12,435 --> 00:46:15,075
So I said, I, we said,
you can think of her.

877
00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:18,670
Like a mom and he said no,
no, no, no, not like a mom.

878
00:46:18,670 --> 00:46:23,470
She is my mom He was just very intent on
this and yeah, you know, eventually he

879
00:46:23,470 --> 00:46:28,410
let it go, but it was just interesting
I think a lot of two dad couples have

880
00:46:28,449 --> 00:46:32,439
a situation because again, you know The
mother is just such a crucial figure in

881
00:46:32,439 --> 00:46:38,125
the traditional family and kids who see
other moms getting involved with The lives

882
00:46:38,125 --> 00:46:41,075
and school activities of their friends
will wonder where, well, where's my mom?

883
00:46:41,075 --> 00:46:43,035
Or you have mother's
day or things like that.

884
00:46:43,055 --> 00:46:44,425
But overall, it's been great.

885
00:46:44,635 --> 00:46:47,325
As you mentioned, we live in
a very progressive community.

886
00:46:47,345 --> 00:46:48,405
Nobody's given us grief.

887
00:46:48,415 --> 00:46:52,114
Harlan, as far as we know, hasn't been
bullied or teased or anything like that.

888
00:46:52,114 --> 00:46:56,295
And we have some wonderful friends in
town who also have, you know, our families

889
00:46:56,295 --> 00:46:58,385
with unusual or different structures.

890
00:46:58,395 --> 00:47:00,145
So overall it's been great.

891
00:47:00,145 --> 00:47:01,165
We feel really lucky to live

892
00:47:01,165 --> 00:47:01,385
here.

893
00:47:01,685 --> 00:47:02,855
Yeah, that's awesome.

894
00:47:03,035 --> 00:47:03,735
That's awesome to hear.

895
00:47:03,945 --> 00:47:06,375
And I think really interesting what
you mentioned about Harlan too.

896
00:47:06,375 --> 00:47:12,345
And it's, it sort of goes to, I
think representation and what kids

897
00:47:12,355 --> 00:47:17,905
consume, we still have a long way to
go until, you know, there's a YouTube

898
00:47:17,915 --> 00:47:22,765
series with two dads and surrogate
children and things like that.

899
00:47:22,785 --> 00:47:25,575
And it's just not always
something that they see.

900
00:47:25,845 --> 00:47:30,805
On a daily basis, and in the things that
they consume, and so we still, I think,

901
00:47:30,805 --> 00:47:36,065
have a ways to go until that is, you know,
just something that's just a normal part

902
00:47:36,065 --> 00:47:37,865
of their consumption and understanding.

903
00:47:38,154 --> 00:47:38,424
Yeah,

904
00:47:38,425 --> 00:47:39,505
that's really true.

905
00:47:39,505 --> 00:47:42,075
There are a couple of children's
books, for instance, that we

906
00:47:42,075 --> 00:47:45,224
read him and the children's
books sometimes make me feel bad.

907
00:47:45,225 --> 00:47:46,144
There's with this one.

908
00:47:46,345 --> 00:47:52,285
Book called my two dads and the two dads
are so perfect and patient and they do

909
00:47:52,285 --> 00:47:56,215
all these great activities and they look
really good They're very handsome and

910
00:47:56,235 --> 00:48:00,005
they're really well dressed and we're
in sweats and we haven't shaved and we

911
00:48:00,005 --> 00:48:03,295
look terrible And so Sometimes you're
like, wow, like kind of going back to

912
00:48:03,295 --> 00:48:04,815
the guilt of the feeling of inadequacy.

913
00:48:04,815 --> 00:48:08,305
It's like, even as gay parents, we
can be sort of made to feel bad.

914
00:48:08,355 --> 00:48:08,805
Oh,

915
00:48:09,255 --> 00:48:09,405
man.

916
00:48:09,855 --> 00:48:10,585
Oh, man.

917
00:48:10,585 --> 00:48:14,575
We need, we do just like, you know,
normal books about my two dads, right?

918
00:48:14,615 --> 00:48:18,155
They don't have to be supermodel,
you know, perfect, perfect

919
00:48:18,205 --> 00:48:19,624
supermen or anything like that.

920
00:48:20,055 --> 00:48:20,375
Okay.

921
00:48:20,375 --> 00:48:26,445
Last question for you before we get
into our Lightning round, rapid fire.

922
00:48:26,875 --> 00:48:31,075
How could people be helpful or
follow along in your journey?

923
00:48:31,115 --> 00:48:34,564
Where should they go to keep
track of what David's up to?

924
00:48:35,164 --> 00:48:35,755
Yeah, sure.

925
00:48:35,755 --> 00:48:39,265
So I have a Substack newsletter,
which is available at davidlatt.

926
00:48:39,295 --> 00:48:39,834
substack.

927
00:48:39,834 --> 00:48:40,164
com.

928
00:48:40,175 --> 00:48:43,104
People can either visit it on the
web or subscribe for email updates.

929
00:48:43,125 --> 00:48:46,814
And every week I do a weekly news
roundup and I begin the weekly news

930
00:48:46,814 --> 00:48:48,214
roundup with a personal update.

931
00:48:48,214 --> 00:48:51,005
So often I mentioned my kids
because I think they're Part of

932
00:48:51,005 --> 00:48:53,875
normalizing gay parenting is just
talking a lot about your kids.

933
00:48:53,885 --> 00:48:55,515
So I consciously do that.

934
00:48:55,525 --> 00:48:59,164
So I am reachable there
and I'm on social media.

935
00:48:59,175 --> 00:49:02,464
I'm on Twitter at David Latt,
although I've kind of, I'm only

936
00:49:02,464 --> 00:49:03,845
just returning from a hiatus.

937
00:49:04,134 --> 00:49:06,275
I'm on Instagram at David Benjamin Latt.

938
00:49:06,565 --> 00:49:09,604
I am very active on LinkedIn
actually, which is kind of the

939
00:49:09,615 --> 00:49:11,285
popular social network for lawyers.

940
00:49:11,285 --> 00:49:12,955
It's lawyers, a safe space.

941
00:49:12,995 --> 00:49:14,925
They feel a little intimidated
by some of the others.

942
00:49:15,155 --> 00:49:16,785
I'm on Tik TOK, but I'm just a lurker.

943
00:49:17,014 --> 00:49:19,325
So again, that's how I can be reached.

944
00:49:19,515 --> 00:49:19,955
All right.

945
00:49:19,955 --> 00:49:20,205
Great.

946
00:49:20,205 --> 00:49:22,195
Well, we'll link to all that
stuff in the show notes.

947
00:49:22,195 --> 00:49:25,675
So are you ready for the rapid fire round?

948
00:49:25,725 --> 00:49:26,015
Sure.

949
00:49:26,015 --> 00:49:26,605
Let's do it.

950
00:49:26,675 --> 00:49:27,395
Here we go.

951
00:49:27,905 --> 00:49:31,265
What is the most indispensable
parenting product that you have

952
00:49:31,384 --> 00:49:32,435
ever purchased?

953
00:49:33,284 --> 00:49:35,455
Well, we didn't purchase
it, but we rented it.

954
00:49:35,685 --> 00:49:37,305
We did turn to the snoo.

955
00:49:37,345 --> 00:49:39,045
I know it's very controversial, but

956
00:49:39,835 --> 00:49:42,965
my brother just borrowed one
from a friend for his newborn.

957
00:49:42,965 --> 00:49:45,365
And I think that is
the way to go for sure.

958
00:49:45,385 --> 00:49:46,975
Renting or borrowing.

959
00:49:47,005 --> 00:49:47,575
That's it.

960
00:49:48,220 --> 00:49:48,510
All right.

961
00:49:48,510 --> 00:49:49,600
Finish this sentence.

962
00:49:49,620 --> 00:49:54,310
The ideal day with my kids
involves this one activity.

963
00:49:55,660 --> 00:49:57,240
I would say being outdoors.

964
00:49:57,489 --> 00:49:58,470
Again, it's kind of funny.

965
00:49:58,540 --> 00:50:02,119
I'm not a big outdoors guy, but they just
love being outdoors in the fresh air.

966
00:50:02,120 --> 00:50:04,119
And now that spring is
starting, we're doing that.

967
00:50:04,439 --> 00:50:04,939
Okay.

968
00:50:05,399 --> 00:50:05,619
The

969
00:50:05,630 --> 00:50:08,949
best piece of parenting
advice you've ever received

970
00:50:09,029 --> 00:50:09,939
is what?

971
00:50:10,309 --> 00:50:12,579
I would just say, relax.

972
00:50:12,629 --> 00:50:13,749
It's going to be okay.

973
00:50:15,479 --> 00:50:18,829
What is the most frustrating thing
that has ever happened to you as a dad?

974
00:50:19,250 --> 00:50:23,650
This is a minor annoyance, but,
uh, sometimes when you're a two dad

975
00:50:23,710 --> 00:50:27,730
couple, people, bystanders, just
assume you're incompetent and give

976
00:50:27,730 --> 00:50:29,890
you lots of unsolicited advice.

977
00:50:29,900 --> 00:50:30,370
Ah.

978
00:50:30,380 --> 00:50:31,940
So that is kind of annoying.

979
00:50:32,150 --> 00:50:32,580
Yeah,

980
00:50:32,599 --> 00:50:34,350
that's really interesting, yeah.

981
00:50:34,770 --> 00:50:37,450
What is your go to dad wardrobe?

982
00:50:37,959 --> 00:50:41,390
I would say a, a zip up
hoodie and sweatpants.

983
00:50:42,190 --> 00:50:42,790
Same.

984
00:50:44,180 --> 00:50:46,640
How many parenting books
do you have in your

985
00:50:46,640 --> 00:50:47,170
house?

986
00:50:47,840 --> 00:50:49,160
Probably about three.

987
00:50:49,410 --> 00:50:50,060
Okay, and

988
00:50:50,060 --> 00:50:52,330
how many parenting books
have you actually read?

989
00:50:52,810 --> 00:50:53,410
cover to

990
00:50:53,430 --> 00:50:53,870
cover.

991
00:50:54,510 --> 00:50:55,990
75 maybe?

992
00:50:56,860 --> 00:50:57,190
That is

993
00:50:57,190 --> 00:51:01,210
the first fractional, um,
discussion of a parenting book

994
00:51:01,260 --> 00:51:02,980
on this show, so that's awesome.

995
00:51:03,299 --> 00:51:05,179
What is the favorite ages for

996
00:51:05,179 --> 00:51:06,100
your kids?

997
00:51:06,410 --> 00:51:08,559
I would say right now for Harlan, age 6.

998
00:51:08,820 --> 00:51:12,414
I'm gonna be honest, Chase is super
cute, but he's really boring right now.

999
00:51:12,675 --> 00:51:13,005
He's

1000
00:51:13,005 --> 00:51:16,725
in the potted plant phase of
life as I like to describe that

1001
00:51:16,725 --> 00:51:20,565
age Have you ever used your kids
as an excuse to get out of a

1002
00:51:20,565 --> 00:51:21,385
social event?

1003
00:51:21,974 --> 00:51:27,865
Oh all the time You know first we had
the pandemic Oh, you know, it was such

1004
00:51:27,865 --> 00:51:32,524
a high standard for going out and doing
things and now it's our kids All right,

1005
00:51:32,525 --> 00:51:35,855
not that you have a lot of this but
if you were finished off your kids

1006
00:51:35,865 --> 00:51:38,785
homework Yes,

1007
00:51:41,165 --> 00:51:41,425
that's

1008
00:51:41,425 --> 00:51:41,845
okay.

1009
00:51:41,885 --> 00:51:42,655
We'll allow it.

1010
00:51:42,765 --> 00:51:42,915
Yeah.

1011
00:51:42,915 --> 00:51:43,905
Don't tell Miss Tepper.

1012
00:51:44,075 --> 00:51:44,315
Yeah.

1013
00:51:45,445 --> 00:51:48,964
Have you ever accidentally
mixed up your Children's names?

1014
00:51:49,285 --> 00:51:51,284
Oh, all the time, all the time.

1015
00:51:51,674 --> 00:51:56,224
And my brother in law and
sister in law, their two kids

1016
00:51:56,224 --> 00:51:57,495
have names similar to our kids.

1017
00:51:57,515 --> 00:51:59,145
And I mix all four of them up.

1018
00:52:00,205 --> 00:52:00,515
That's

1019
00:52:00,575 --> 00:52:00,785
amazing.

1020
00:52:01,595 --> 00:52:06,905
How long can a piece of food sit on the
floor in your house and you will still eat

1021
00:52:06,905 --> 00:52:07,125
it?

1022
00:52:07,930 --> 00:52:10,540
Oh, I think we adhere to the
10 second rule, but maybe

1023
00:52:10,540 --> 00:52:11,990
it's a flexible 10 seconds.

1024
00:52:12,320 --> 00:52:13,430
I love that.

1025
00:52:13,620 --> 00:52:19,500
What nostalgic movie can you just
not wait to force your kids to watch?

1026
00:52:20,160 --> 00:52:23,459
Oh gosh, it's a sign of my age
that this is nostalgic, but

1027
00:52:23,470 --> 00:52:24,980
maybe something like Clueless.

1028
00:52:25,099 --> 00:52:25,999
Oh,

1029
00:52:26,029 --> 00:52:26,700
good one.

1030
00:52:26,770 --> 00:52:27,340
Yeah.

1031
00:52:27,790 --> 00:52:34,015
How often do you tell Probably
Harlan back in my day stories.

1032
00:52:34,295 --> 00:52:35,205
Oh, all the time.

1033
00:52:35,765 --> 00:52:37,355
What's your favorite back in my day

1034
00:52:37,355 --> 00:52:38,355
story to tell?

1035
00:52:38,415 --> 00:52:44,035
Often things about technology, like
landline phones or something like that.

1036
00:52:44,205 --> 00:52:46,345
And he thinks every
screen is a touch screen.

1037
00:52:46,345 --> 00:52:48,474
He goes to the airport with the
arrival and departure screens

1038
00:52:48,474 --> 00:52:49,785
and he starts swiping at them.

1039
00:52:49,795 --> 00:52:51,155
Like it's just so different.

1040
00:52:51,405 --> 00:52:52,895
What is the strangest

1041
00:52:52,905 --> 00:52:55,005
place that you've ever found a diaper?

1042
00:52:56,160 --> 00:52:59,480
Oh, gosh, nothing terribly exciting.

1043
00:52:59,480 --> 00:53:00,540
Probably under the couch.

1044
00:53:00,570 --> 00:53:01,550
Not a dirty diaper.

1045
00:53:02,950 --> 00:53:03,990
I've heard under the couch.

1046
00:53:03,990 --> 00:53:06,350
I've also heard the
glove box of the car that

1047
00:53:07,210 --> 00:53:11,510
we have one on the floor of our car right
now and part of me was going to pick it up

1048
00:53:11,510 --> 00:53:13,920
and then part of me thought you never know
when you're going to need an extra diaper.

1049
00:53:13,920 --> 00:53:14,599
Just leave it there.

1050
00:53:14,640 --> 00:53:15,160
It's true.

1051
00:53:15,249 --> 00:53:15,809
There you go.

1052
00:53:16,159 --> 00:53:20,259
How many times have you
said go ask daddy this week?

1053
00:53:20,320 --> 00:53:20,480
Oh

1054
00:53:20,480 --> 00:53:22,890
my gosh, all the time again.

1055
00:53:22,930 --> 00:53:25,290
Kind of as I was saying
earlier, Adam, I'm the pushover.

1056
00:53:25,290 --> 00:53:25,380
Yeah.

1057
00:53:25,720 --> 00:53:29,010
So Harlan comes to me often,
but I really want Zach.

1058
00:53:29,040 --> 00:53:30,290
I can be very indecisive.

1059
00:53:30,290 --> 00:53:32,290
So, and Zach is much more decisive.

1060
00:53:32,290 --> 00:53:34,170
So all the time, every day.

1061
00:53:35,070 --> 00:53:35,600
All right.

1062
00:53:35,850 --> 00:53:40,210
And then finally, I know you only have
two kids, but you do live in New Jersey.

1063
00:53:40,400 --> 00:53:42,599
What is your take on minivans?

1064
00:53:42,890 --> 00:53:43,270
Oh,

1065
00:53:43,280 --> 00:53:44,390
ha ha ha ha ha.

1066
00:53:44,660 --> 00:53:47,010
This is a point of contention.

1067
00:53:47,190 --> 00:53:48,810
I love minivans.

1068
00:53:48,810 --> 00:53:51,430
We grew up with one minivan after another.

1069
00:53:51,580 --> 00:53:54,150
My parents would just replace the
model with the exact same model.

1070
00:53:54,150 --> 00:53:58,150
First it was Chrysler or Dodge and
then it was Honda and they love

1071
00:53:58,150 --> 00:54:00,830
their Odyssey even though they're
just grandparents and empty nesters.

1072
00:54:00,850 --> 00:54:03,369
They love having it when we
visit them or when Harlan visits.

1073
00:54:03,695 --> 00:54:04,015
them.

1074
00:54:04,295 --> 00:54:07,305
Zach would not be caught
dead in a minivan.

1075
00:54:07,515 --> 00:54:08,815
That was one of the things I said.

1076
00:54:08,815 --> 00:54:09,935
Oh, we're moving to the suburbs.

1077
00:54:09,935 --> 00:54:10,715
We can get a minivan.

1078
00:54:10,715 --> 00:54:11,965
He said over my dead body.

1079
00:54:11,965 --> 00:54:16,114
And so we have an SUV and they're not
as good for the environment, I think.

1080
00:54:16,185 --> 00:54:18,294
But this was one concession I made.

1081
00:54:18,315 --> 00:54:19,435
He won that battle.

1082
00:54:19,475 --> 00:54:21,400
But I love minivans.

1083
00:54:21,610 --> 00:54:23,020
Oh, wow.

1084
00:54:23,040 --> 00:54:26,400
We got some contentious
household discussion on minivans.

1085
00:54:26,440 --> 00:54:27,080
I love it.

1086
00:54:27,480 --> 00:54:27,860
Great.

1087
00:54:27,860 --> 00:54:31,440
Well, hopefully that doesn't introduce
any arguments in the household on this

1088
00:54:31,440 --> 00:54:36,219
show, but thank you, David, very much
for joining me on the podcast today.

1089
00:54:36,219 --> 00:54:39,570
It was a pleasure having
you and learning all about

1090
00:54:39,730 --> 00:54:40,670
you and your family.

1091
00:54:40,870 --> 00:54:41,480
Thank you, Adam.

1092
00:54:41,480 --> 00:54:43,760
This was one of the most
fun podcasts I've ever done.

1093
00:54:44,715 --> 00:54:47,735
Thank you for listening to today's
conversation with David Latt.

1094
00:54:48,345 --> 00:54:51,475
If you enjoyed the show, please
subscribe, share, and leave

1095
00:54:51,475 --> 00:54:53,665
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1096
00:54:54,095 --> 00:54:55,955
It'll help other people find this podcast.

1097
00:54:56,745 --> 00:55:01,794
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1098
00:55:02,394 --> 00:55:06,815
You can join a community of over
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1099
00:55:06,815 --> 00:55:07,699
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1100
00:55:07,700 --> 00:55:11,420
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1101
00:55:11,420 --> 00:55:13,920
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1102
00:55:13,970 --> 00:55:14,400
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1103
00:55:18,550 --> 00:55:18,870
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1104
00:55:19,470 --> 00:55:20,420
Thanks for listening.

1105
00:55:20,829 --> 00:55:21,690
See you next time.