Male Fertility and the Fleeting Nature of Time | Linus Ekenstam (father of 2, co-founder Sensive)

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Linus Ekenstam: When I thought
about having kids, I thought I

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will have kids for a long period
of time, let's say 20 years.

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But the reality is you have kids for like
maybe six years and then they become a

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different type of thing that you have.

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They're no longer just your kids.

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They're shared with friends.

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They're shared with the community.

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activities, they're shared with themselves
because they start figuring out who

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they are and what they like to do.

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Adam Fishman: Welcome to Startup Dad,
the podcast where we dive deep into

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the lives of dads who are also leaders
in the world of startups and business.

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I'm your host, Adam Fishman, and
in today's episode, I sat down with

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Linus, Linus is a designer and serial
entrepreneur, having founded and sold

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several companies, as well as having
been a design leader at Typeform,

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Bamboo Blockchain, and Flowdesk.

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He is currently building an
AI powered children's story

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generator at BedtimeStory.

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ai, and a platform to track
and improve mental health.

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called Sensitive.

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He's a loving partner and the
father of two young daughters.

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In our conversation today, we spoke at
length about his struggles with male

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infertility, time, and relativity,
as well as how he and his partner

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navigate the daily grind with a
four year old and a two year old.

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We were joined by his youngest
daughter for part of the episode.

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Linus works, thinks, and writes a lot
about AI, and so we also talked about

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how he thinks technology will transform.

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his daughter's lives
over the coming years.

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He shared an optimistic view of the
future with AI as a useful tool.

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I hope you enjoy today's episode.

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I would like to welcome Linus
Ekenstam to the Startup Dad podcast.

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Linus, it is a pleasure
having you on the program.

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Thank you for joining me today.

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Linus Ekenstam: Yeah, thank
you very much for having me.

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Adam Fishman: So most people who
are listening to this probably

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won't know very much about you.

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And in fact, I didn't know very
much about you until I came across

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you on X or Twitter or whatever
we're calling it these days.

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So tell me a little bit about yourself.

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What would you say you do here?

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Linus Ekenstam: That's a great question.

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I ask myself that every day when
I wake up, like, what do I do?

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I think my first calling
is that I'm a dad.

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I got two small kids, two and four.

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And then my second thing that I
do is that I've become completely

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devoured by artificial intelligence.

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And I, you know, I drink the Kool
Aid every day, but I also try to

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distill that and make sense of it
all for kind of a larger audience.

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To get people to tag along, basically.

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And my background is in startup world.

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So I've been in a few
hyper growth companies.

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I've started a few companies.

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I sold a few companies and I've
learned a lot, failed a lot.

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And here I am basically,
that's my life in a nutshell.

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Adam Fishman: So we've got the
intersection of startups and

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fatherhood, which is this show.

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So you are right down the
fairway to use a golf reference.

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Of guests for the program on your website,
you refer to yourself as an AI gardener.

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What does it mean to be an AI gardener?

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Are you tending a garden?

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Linus Ekenstam: Yeah, it's funny that
like people ask me this and I think

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the way that artificial intelligence
currently work and the way that kind of

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machine learning has put everything up to.

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This kind of where we are today
is that you don't really have full

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control, much like you don't have
full control over your garden.

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You tend to your garden
and you hope for the best.

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There's so many external
variables when you're gardening

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that you can't really control.

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And I feel it's a little bit the same now
in the land of artificial intelligence,

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where you're like, you do a lot of things.

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But it might not necessarily
turn out the way that you want.

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And that is exactly what parenthood
is about as well, by the way.

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So it's all kind of tying in
beautifully to each other.

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And I don't like to call myself
an expert in anything because I'm

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not like, you know, I'm, I like
to be the most dumb person in the

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room so I can ask stupid questions.

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Usually that is the situation.

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So I think with me kind of coming up with
that label is a little bit of a rebellious

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because I don't like labels and I felt
like I need a label to explain myself.

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So

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Adam Fishman: yeah, it's like,

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Linus Ekenstam: that's how
it ended up being like that.

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Adam Fishman: All right.

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I love the humility that comes with being
a gardener, which is just like, we're

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all, Hey, we're all doing our best here.

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Like, we'll see.

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I

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Linus Ekenstam: mean, no offense
to anyone that's really good

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at gardening, by the way.

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Cause like there are people that
might be like, Hey, you know,

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I'm a professional gardener.

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If I say the grass will be
green, it will be green.

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Kudos to you.

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I'm kind of more of the patient person
or unpatient person, who just like

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tweaks, awakens, let nature do its thing.

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Adam Fishman: And you are
talking to me from Spain, but

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you do not appear Spanish to me.

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And your accent does not sound like
many of the Spaniards that I know.

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So tell me about where you grew up
and what life was like growing up.

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Where are you from originally?

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Linus Ekenstam: I'm Swedish.

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I've grown up in a small.

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coastal town on the Swedish west
coast, literally like 100 meters

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from the beach, 40, 000 people.

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So not a big place, not a tiny place
either, but about an hour south of

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Gothenburg that might be the closest
reference for people if they think

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about how Sweden looks like on a map.

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I'm born in the eighties, but
kind of grew up in the nineties.

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Like I don't remember much
of the late 80s per se.

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So quite an interesting situation.

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My family traveled a lot and we didn't
get all the gadgets and trinkets.

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All my friends had video games and
stuff, but I didn't have anything.

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Instead, I was like hoarded
around the world, looking at old

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monuments and like seeing different
cultures, which was really good.

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I don't blame my parents at all for that,
but I think at some point it just became

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crazy and I just started to accumulate
technology and I, here I am, you know, 30

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years later and I'm just kind of, yeah,
it flicked the other way basically, but

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growing up in Sweden was quite nice.

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It was a very calm, I think
Americanized culture because like

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everything that we watched in Sweden.

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Back then and still with coming from the
US like it's a very interesting childhood.

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So like all the references that anyone
would make However, that side of

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the pond would be references that we
would make as well, uh, music wise and

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like TV shows and games and whatnot.

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Adam Fishman: Did you have a
particular favorite children's

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TV show when you were growing up?

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Linus Ekenstam: I mean, come on.

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Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.

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Like, that must've been it.

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Or Power Rangers.

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I don't know.

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Like, I don't

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Adam Fishman: know which came first.

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But yeah, those are a couple of my
favorites too, of course, now you

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can watch them like anytime you want.

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And when we were kids, you had
to watch them on like Saturday

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morning or like Sunday morning
cartoons or something like that.

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So

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Linus Ekenstam: absolutely correct.

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And I also began back to
the gadgets and trinkets.

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Like my friends had like cable
TV and all that we did not.

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So like, it was like, I was hoarding
my way over to a friend to be like,

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okay, let's watch Teenage Mutant
Ninja Turtles on a Saturday morning.

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But I think it came later though.

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Like I do have.

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Make memories of enjoying that
in the living room as well.

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So, yeah, man, it was a different
time, different time altogether.

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It's really interesting when you
think about it, cause a lot of things

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happened since like, it's just 30 years.

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But then it feels like five lifetimes
of change and I can just see my kids now

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and be like, if I went through all that
change and we're now kind of accelerating

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even further and faster, can't imagine
what they're going to go through.

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So yeah, I spend a lot of time
in that intersect, like between

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my childhood and their childhood.

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So that's why I kind of
ponder on this a lot.

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So back to the question.

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Adam Fishman: That's interesting.

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Why do you think that is that you think
a lot about the differences between

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your childhood and your kid's childhood?

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Yeah.

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Linus Ekenstam: I think if we look
historically, maybe in the modern society,

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100, 150 years, and we look at the change
that we have gone through compared to

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our parents, and then the change that
their parents had to go through compared

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to them, it was less than if we go
backwards in time, the change was less.

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So like my grandparents and the step
to my parents, they did have a lot

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of overlap, but maybe during the
course of 50 years, there were some

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things that changed, but my parents
could still go to the grandparents

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and ask for advice for life advice.

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And if you go even further, it
was probably even more like that,

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where you're like, you would learn
from your elders until they died.

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Now I feel that that's
not the case anymore.

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Like I'm a very.

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different human being and living in a
very different world compared to the

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one grandparent I have left alive.

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And my great grandmother is still
alive and she's 105 and I can't

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imagine what world she's living in.

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So that's why I kind of, I find it
very interesting because we have to

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deal with a lot of things that humans
have not had to deal with before.

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That's why I just end up being very
philosophical about it, but spending a lot

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of time going back and forth and trying
to learn from history, but also trying to.

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Kind of foresee where things are going.

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Adam Fishman: Yeah, it's pretty
amazing when you think about our

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parents, our parents, parents, like
the world that they knew was like what

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was in front of them, like what they
could see and what they could touch.

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And there was no internet, there
was no, you know, computer,

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there were barriers, right?

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Like everything was a border.

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And then for us, that's
kind of gone, right?

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We grew up with the internet.

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And then for our kids, like, even more
so like they're growing up without even

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probably needing to type a URL into
a web browser anymore or run a search

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like they're just going to say something
and something's going to come back to

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them like what a what an amazing and
maybe sometimes scary time to be alive

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Linus Ekenstam: yeah i think we end up
in the middle our generation and the

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generations akin to ours kind of end
up in this weird situation where we're

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going to be alive and kicking hopefully
You know, in 30, 40 years, if all

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things go as well, maybe even longer.

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So we're going to have to deal
with that change that our kids

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are going to have to grow up with.

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Like you said, we've grown
up with the internet.

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Like I remember my first time hooking
up a modem and like hearing the sound

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of the modem connecting to the internet.

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And then everything has evolved
as I've been going older.

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The internet has been growing older
and I kind of make this analogy.

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I had a Game Boy.

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It's basically a few days older than me.

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And my kids have Chachi Petit, like
that's their equivalent, right?

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So there's a pretty big step from
the Game Boy to the chat, to chat

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GPT, um, but it's their baseline.

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It's their default.

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So for them, when they're 30 and they're
going to look back at their childhood

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and give, you know, they're going to
be like, Oh, we had this old thing.

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You know, chat GPT is very
rudimentary and like, Oh geez,

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I'm going to be such an old fart.

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You know?

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Yeah.

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Adam Fishman: Yeah.

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We're going to be on GPT 47
by the time your kids are.

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Adults, you won't even
have to ask it a question.

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It'll just know what you want.

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So you mentioned your kids a few times.

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You mentioned your partner.

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Tell me about your family now.

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Linus Ekenstam: Yeah.

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So it's me and my, we're not
married, but it's my partner, Jenny.

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She's also Swedish and our two
daughters, Sky Lou and Poppy May.

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And Sky Lou is the oldest.

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She's four and Poppy May is two.

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We got Sky Lou in the
middle of the pandemic.

229
00:11:04,010 --> 00:11:06,720
So 2020, which was kind of nice.

230
00:11:06,730 --> 00:11:09,309
Cause my partner, she was in the
last trimester during lockdown.

231
00:11:09,480 --> 00:11:14,060
So we didn't have any social kind of,
you know, stress of having to do things.

232
00:11:14,060 --> 00:11:16,910
We were just like happily
hanging around at home.

233
00:11:17,140 --> 00:11:19,300
And then we decided to move
back to Sweden for a bit.

234
00:11:19,329 --> 00:11:23,440
So we spent actually almost two years
on the clock in Sweden and we got poppy.

235
00:11:23,820 --> 00:11:27,849
And we figured out the day that
we were driving to Sweden with

236
00:11:27,850 --> 00:11:29,360
all of our stuff packed in a big.

237
00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:32,090
big van that my partner was pregnant.

238
00:11:32,090 --> 00:11:34,990
So if we had known, we probably would
have taken a different decision.

239
00:11:35,270 --> 00:11:40,420
Adam Fishman: What was the pull to go
back to Sweden during the pandemic time?

240
00:11:40,690 --> 00:11:44,449
Linus Ekenstam: We'd spent, I think,
close to seven, six, six and a half

241
00:11:44,450 --> 00:11:46,040
years here in Spain, in Barcelona.

242
00:11:46,230 --> 00:11:50,570
And we're kind of itchy to, to
have a bit more garden, to have a

243
00:11:50,570 --> 00:11:53,594
bit more like relaxed time, just.

244
00:11:53,815 --> 00:11:57,045
Being closer to family and all this
stuff that you kind of miss when you move

245
00:11:57,055 --> 00:12:02,224
somewhere further away from family and
We maybe didn't take into consideration

246
00:12:02,764 --> 00:12:06,104
The reasons why we moved in the first
place, which is like we like the climate

247
00:12:06,105 --> 00:12:11,194
here better, you know, there's cultures
Relatively more closer to what we like.

248
00:12:11,285 --> 00:12:16,715
I'm Swedish, but I'm not very Swedish
in the way that I Do things like yeah,

249
00:12:16,755 --> 00:12:20,855
I love hanging out with people that I've
never met I love meeting new folks I you

250
00:12:20,855 --> 00:12:25,474
know We get invited to a barbecue if we
meet someone on a Saturday and then the

251
00:12:25,474 --> 00:12:28,374
next week you're doing something else and
your best Friends within a month, right?

252
00:12:28,384 --> 00:12:28,644
So

253
00:12:28,785 --> 00:12:29,854
Adam Fishman: yeah, it's when it's very

254
00:12:29,854 --> 00:12:30,284
Linus Ekenstam: different.

255
00:12:30,305 --> 00:12:33,975
It's like Either you've known someone
from childhood and you're best friends,

256
00:12:33,975 --> 00:12:36,355
no matter what, if you don't see
each other for 10 years, you're still

257
00:12:36,355 --> 00:12:40,595
best friends, or you met sometime
during like high school slash uni

258
00:12:40,644 --> 00:12:42,584
and it all kind of same situation.

259
00:12:43,235 --> 00:12:46,085
So it's really tricky to kind
of punch your way into new

260
00:12:46,444 --> 00:12:47,794
constellations of people.

261
00:12:48,255 --> 00:12:50,904
So that's why in the first
place we decided to go here

262
00:12:50,995 --> 00:12:52,094
to have a bit more of an open

263
00:12:52,104 --> 00:12:52,654
Adam Fishman: lifestyle.

264
00:12:53,404 --> 00:12:53,804
All right.

265
00:12:53,804 --> 00:12:54,625
And you're back.

266
00:12:54,705 --> 00:12:56,505
So Sweden was short lived.

267
00:12:56,815 --> 00:12:58,885
And then the pull of
Spain brought you back.

268
00:12:59,655 --> 00:13:00,725
Nine months of summer.

269
00:13:02,705 --> 00:13:03,855
That does sound pretty nice.

270
00:13:03,855 --> 00:13:04,175
Actually.

271
00:13:04,175 --> 00:13:06,065
We're about to hit summer
here in the Bay area.

272
00:13:06,105 --> 00:13:07,015
I'm excited about it.

273
00:13:07,044 --> 00:13:12,835
So, well, I was inspired to invite
you on the show because you wrote

274
00:13:12,835 --> 00:13:16,104
a very lengthy Twitter post.

275
00:13:16,175 --> 00:13:17,565
I can't call it X.

276
00:13:17,625 --> 00:13:23,105
I'm still going to call it Twitter
on the topic of male infertility,

277
00:13:23,624 --> 00:13:25,675
which is something that.

278
00:13:26,015 --> 00:13:32,065
You don't see a lot of men talking about,
if you do, it's behind closed doors.

279
00:13:32,445 --> 00:13:35,244
And you certainly don't see
people writing posts about it

280
00:13:35,584 --> 00:13:37,044
that go viral on the internet.

281
00:13:37,485 --> 00:13:41,325
You do hear a lot about
female infertility and that.

282
00:13:41,585 --> 00:13:44,625
That is a topic that is discussed
a lot and it's actually been

283
00:13:44,855 --> 00:13:48,775
discussed on this pod as I've had
some partner combos on the show.

284
00:13:49,775 --> 00:13:54,954
I'm very curious to have you on to talk
about this topic because I think it's a

285
00:13:55,005 --> 00:13:59,114
good thing for more people to be aware
of and for more people to talk about.

286
00:13:59,485 --> 00:14:01,454
So take me through.

287
00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:07,000
The story that led to your
Twitter post about this topic.

288
00:14:07,500 --> 00:14:11,120
Linus Ekenstam: Well, to begin with,
I think it's really important to talk

289
00:14:11,130 --> 00:14:15,740
about this in general because it's easy
for people, men and women to kind of

290
00:14:15,749 --> 00:14:17,680
generalize and start, you know, thinking.

291
00:14:18,285 --> 00:14:20,064
Yeah, it's very important
to talk about it.

292
00:14:20,064 --> 00:14:20,925
So it's good that we do that.

293
00:14:20,925 --> 00:14:26,324
So where this all started, we decided,
you know, as you might do in life, if

294
00:14:26,324 --> 00:14:29,285
you're keen to have kids that maybe
we should have kids and then you're

295
00:14:29,295 --> 00:14:31,475
like, Oh wait, but we're on, okay.

296
00:14:31,475 --> 00:14:33,344
So you're on birth control pills and okay.

297
00:14:33,345 --> 00:14:34,735
We need to stop that and all that.

298
00:14:34,925 --> 00:14:37,255
You know, that's, that
was the beginning of it.

299
00:14:37,975 --> 00:14:40,825
And then we tried very actively
to kind of get pregnant.

300
00:14:42,325 --> 00:14:46,335
People told us it's so easy, you know,
people being like people around us, you

301
00:14:46,805 --> 00:14:48,305
just do the thing and you're pregnant.

302
00:14:48,745 --> 00:14:50,495
Turned out it's not that easy.

303
00:14:50,635 --> 00:14:56,265
We managed to get pregnant and then
there was a miscarriage and then

304
00:14:57,265 --> 00:14:59,155
we managed to get pregnant again.

305
00:14:59,505 --> 00:15:05,055
I was another miscarriage and then we
started to like ponder a bit like why

306
00:15:05,075 --> 00:15:09,145
that was so we obviously because of the
first miscarriage we were seeing doctors

307
00:15:09,145 --> 00:15:15,804
on a regular basis and there was some
time between these two miscarriages as

308
00:15:15,804 --> 00:15:19,114
well so there was like a lot of trial
and error and nothing really happened

309
00:15:19,584 --> 00:15:24,160
and I think the first reaction we
had was like straight to my partner,

310
00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:29,470
Jenny, being like, okay, you are the
one that might have fertility issues.

311
00:15:29,990 --> 00:15:32,920
And I don't know why we started there.

312
00:15:32,960 --> 00:15:35,650
Maybe it was because we
were seeing a gynecologist.

313
00:15:35,730 --> 00:15:36,030
Yeah.

314
00:15:36,090 --> 00:15:39,839
Maybe that was why, because we
were already like doing things

315
00:15:39,839 --> 00:15:43,349
on Jenny's side and it turned out
there was nothing wrong with her.

316
00:15:44,150 --> 00:15:46,939
It's like, okay, actually there
might be something wrong with me.

317
00:15:47,300 --> 00:15:50,109
And I was, you know, looking around
in the family, like talking to

318
00:15:50,109 --> 00:15:53,500
some, you know, male family members
and asking, like, if there's any

319
00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:57,910
infertility issues running in the gene
pool, nobody had any issues, right?

320
00:15:57,959 --> 00:15:59,859
And I'm like, oh, okay, let's just start.

321
00:15:59,899 --> 00:16:02,389
Let's just start doing
the whole kind of jabang.

322
00:16:02,399 --> 00:16:06,800
So I went down the route of, of
doing kind of, what do you call it?

323
00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:11,335
Pre, pre IVF kind of deep dive,
basically trying to figure out

324
00:16:11,335 --> 00:16:12,765
what's the state of my sperm.

325
00:16:12,765 --> 00:16:14,265
So like, how's everything holding up?

326
00:16:14,765 --> 00:16:15,625
So I did that.

327
00:16:15,735 --> 00:16:18,895
And then I think the doctors
basically called me and like,

328
00:16:18,895 --> 00:16:19,914
asked me, do you sit down?

329
00:16:19,915 --> 00:16:25,310
And I'm like, Well, I was expecting
like a cancer kind of, you know, notice.

330
00:16:25,310 --> 00:16:26,440
And I'm, yeah, sure.

331
00:16:26,450 --> 00:16:27,170
Like what, what's wrong?

332
00:16:27,170 --> 00:16:30,400
And they're like, I have to
tell you, like, you're complete,

333
00:16:30,410 --> 00:16:32,160
like you're unable to get kids.

334
00:16:32,180 --> 00:16:34,550
Like you're, there's no
movement in your sperms.

335
00:16:34,589 --> 00:16:35,520
They're all malformed.

336
00:16:35,529 --> 00:16:38,180
Like it's all, and then, you
know, went to the doctor.

337
00:16:38,180 --> 00:16:40,669
They showed me the paper, they
showed me the microscope images.

338
00:16:40,670 --> 00:16:45,345
And they're like, yeah, we had been
hoping that we could, Go the IVF route

339
00:16:45,415 --> 00:16:47,425
and you know, but it's not plausible.

340
00:16:47,425 --> 00:16:49,015
It's not there's not enough.

341
00:16:49,605 --> 00:16:55,055
So I'm like, okay That's pretty sad
because I was very keen to to have

342
00:16:55,055 --> 00:16:58,754
the idea of like becoming a dad like
I was very into that So I think at

343
00:16:58,754 --> 00:17:02,335
that point we're like, okay, fuck it
Then we just can't have kids no way

344
00:17:02,345 --> 00:17:05,005
like there are other ways to get kids
Like it's not the end of the world.

345
00:17:05,005 --> 00:17:06,515
I was trying to be very stoic about it.

346
00:17:06,575 --> 00:17:12,020
Like obviously a bit sad, but Stuff
it is what it is And we kind of just

347
00:17:12,710 --> 00:17:14,560
stopped thinking too much about it.

348
00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:18,890
I went on the internet, as you do,
starting to be like, is there something

349
00:17:18,890 --> 00:17:20,470
you can do about male infertility?

350
00:17:20,470 --> 00:17:24,419
And like, you know, the random stuff comes
out, like eat more vegetarian food, or

351
00:17:24,419 --> 00:17:27,489
like, stop doing that, or I don't know.

352
00:17:27,509 --> 00:17:31,650
I just, I think, I guess I let my guard
down a bit and I did some changes.

353
00:17:31,690 --> 00:17:35,890
I tried to eat less red meat and I tried
to, I actually stopped drinking alcohol.

354
00:17:36,130 --> 00:17:39,985
And then, I think eight months
later, Maybe a year later, eight

355
00:17:39,985 --> 00:17:42,375
months later, Jenny got pregnant.

356
00:17:44,035 --> 00:17:44,475
Okay.

357
00:17:44,505 --> 00:17:46,245
You know, what's going
to happen this time?

358
00:17:46,824 --> 00:17:50,495
And because we've had all the issues
before we kind of instantly got to the

359
00:17:50,495 --> 00:17:54,955
point where we got to see someone very
early, I think week four or five to

360
00:17:54,955 --> 00:17:58,499
start looking for a heartbeat because
the other embryos had not, you know,

361
00:17:58,700 --> 00:18:02,840
Developed any heartbeats, I think the
second one had, but the first one had not.

362
00:18:02,850 --> 00:18:05,520
So it was, yeah, the shade of times.

363
00:18:05,930 --> 00:18:10,920
So there was a heartbeat and then,
you know, turned into week 12

364
00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:13,980
and then turned into week 16 and
everything was like, just rolling on.

365
00:18:13,990 --> 00:18:19,260
So at that point, I'm like, these
guys told me like a year ago, I cannot

366
00:18:19,270 --> 00:18:21,190
have kids because like I completely.

367
00:18:21,445 --> 00:18:26,064
You know, I'm sterile and then here
I am my partner, being pregnant.

368
00:18:26,125 --> 00:18:28,735
And the first question was,
obviously this is my kid, you know,

369
00:18:29,510 --> 00:18:32,814
me made you pregnant, . Right?

370
00:18:32,965 --> 00:18:35,245
And it was kind of joking, you
said so, but like yeah, it turned

371
00:18:35,245 --> 00:18:38,995
out in the end that like it was
me and yeah man, it's been what?

372
00:18:38,995 --> 00:18:40,929
Such a rollercoaster ride to be honest.

373
00:18:41,274 --> 00:18:41,980
And it's funny 'cause like.

374
00:18:42,540 --> 00:18:47,490
In the end, we're still not sure like
what shape I am in right now, because

375
00:18:47,490 --> 00:18:50,680
we're not trying to get more kids,
but I wouldn't be surprised that

376
00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:52,270
I'm in a very bad shape in general.

377
00:18:52,290 --> 00:18:56,989
So it's like probably a very lucky
situation and that everything

378
00:18:56,990 --> 00:18:58,030
followed through nicely.

379
00:18:58,030 --> 00:19:00,370
We didn't have any complications at birth.

380
00:19:00,409 --> 00:19:02,089
We don't have any genetic diseases.

381
00:19:02,110 --> 00:19:04,330
Nothing happened to our
daughter in that sense.

382
00:19:04,950 --> 00:19:06,750
But we were told multiple times that like.

383
00:19:07,235 --> 00:19:11,335
Look, just because you're pregnant now
doesn't mean that you're going to be good.

384
00:19:11,345 --> 00:19:16,494
So we did a lot of the early stage testing
in vitro, like DNA testing and all that

385
00:19:16,494 --> 00:19:21,094
stuff to make sure that there wasn't high
chances of rare diseases, for example.

386
00:19:21,114 --> 00:19:24,184
So it's a strange journey, to be honest.

387
00:19:24,425 --> 00:19:28,115
And I can imagine a lot of guys
going through the same thing and

388
00:19:28,115 --> 00:19:30,235
not having anyone to talk to.

389
00:19:30,235 --> 00:19:34,275
Because like, I feel when I went
through it, I'm like, Went through

390
00:19:34,275 --> 00:19:35,845
my phone book, like, who do I call?

391
00:19:35,855 --> 00:19:41,144
Like some friends have kids, like never
talked about their fertility issues.

392
00:19:41,155 --> 00:19:45,664
So like, do I call a woman friend
and talk to her about my, like, it

393
00:19:45,664 --> 00:19:49,244
was very strange and then after a
while, I'm like, I'm not a fuzzy guy.

394
00:19:49,244 --> 00:19:49,634
I am.

395
00:19:50,065 --> 00:19:53,725
I feel like I'm very stoic in most
things when life gives me shit.

396
00:19:53,735 --> 00:19:57,045
So in the end, I just like, I
think the best way is just talk

397
00:19:57,055 --> 00:20:00,264
about it with whomever, like just
be very open about my experience.

398
00:20:00,264 --> 00:20:05,165
And if, you know, I can meet others
through doing that, then it's great.

399
00:20:05,165 --> 00:20:09,585
And maybe I can help one or
two other people to, you know,

400
00:20:09,625 --> 00:20:12,365
get it off their hearts or like
just have someone to talk to.

401
00:20:12,375 --> 00:20:13,304
And that would be worth it.

402
00:20:13,395 --> 00:20:15,715
Like that was kind of where I came from.

403
00:20:16,345 --> 00:20:18,775
And I've mentioned it a few times online.

404
00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:22,570
And I think the post that you're
referring to was, went kind of viral.

405
00:20:22,590 --> 00:20:23,880
So that was good.

406
00:20:23,950 --> 00:20:26,760
And it really came to the limelight.

407
00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:31,030
There's a lot of guys actually in
similar situations or in having

408
00:20:31,179 --> 00:20:32,460
infertility issues, basically.

409
00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:33,130
Adam Fishman: Yeah.

410
00:20:33,130 --> 00:20:37,980
I read in your post, you said something
like seven or 8 percent of men have

411
00:20:38,349 --> 00:20:42,380
issues with fertility, which is when you
compare that with the number of people who

412
00:20:42,380 --> 00:20:46,300
actually talk about it, you would think
it's in the like, You know, one millionth

413
00:20:46,300 --> 00:20:48,030
of a percent or something like that.

414
00:20:48,050 --> 00:20:52,399
But it turns out it's high single
digits, which is a non trivial seven

415
00:20:52,399 --> 00:20:53,580
out of a hundred people, right?

416
00:20:53,899 --> 00:20:54,739
That's, that's a lot of people.

417
00:20:55,199 --> 00:21:02,090
So your journey was miscarriage, tried
to do IVF, had a doctor tell you.

418
00:21:02,430 --> 00:21:03,500
It's not going to work.

419
00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:07,800
And then miraculously you
ended up with two kids.

420
00:21:08,010 --> 00:21:12,480
Were the doctors ever able to
explain like what happened or what

421
00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:14,480
they, what they never got a clear

422
00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:15,040
Linus Ekenstam: answer.

423
00:21:15,099 --> 00:21:20,520
And it's funny cause like in
the end, I mean, the body is a

424
00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:22,379
mysterious piece of machinery, right?

425
00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:23,899
We, there's a lot of
things that we do know.

426
00:21:23,899 --> 00:21:24,949
And a lot of things that we don't know.

427
00:21:25,169 --> 00:21:30,720
It's not like I've been, Under the
microscope over a long period of time

428
00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:34,610
doing multiple tests, like I have no idea.

429
00:21:34,690 --> 00:21:35,900
And it's a bit strange.

430
00:21:36,110 --> 00:21:39,280
And again, like with a second
kid, obviously we were like, okay,

431
00:21:39,739 --> 00:21:40,979
it's like, it's a free for all.

432
00:21:40,979 --> 00:21:42,929
We can't have kids like it's clear.

433
00:21:42,930 --> 00:21:43,600
We can't have kids.

434
00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:44,940
We don't have to think about anything.

435
00:21:44,940 --> 00:21:45,510
And then you go.

436
00:21:46,095 --> 00:21:48,135
Wait a minute, you're pregnant again?

437
00:21:48,145 --> 00:21:48,635
Like what?

438
00:21:48,825 --> 00:21:49,945
Uh, it's time.

439
00:21:50,015 --> 00:21:50,405
Yeah.

440
00:21:50,435 --> 00:21:51,765
It's time to bring out the scissors.

441
00:21:51,835 --> 00:21:51,955
Like,

442
00:21:54,455 --> 00:21:58,515
Adam Fishman: you know, I've heard a lot
from people that when they kind of just

443
00:21:59,065 --> 00:22:03,105
relax and forget about all the challenges.

444
00:22:03,125 --> 00:22:06,924
Now, again, this isn't going
to solve everyone's problem.

445
00:22:06,924 --> 00:22:10,654
Like that there are real medical
issues here, but that's sort of

446
00:22:10,654 --> 00:22:14,234
like relaxing and taking some of the
pressure off yourself has led to.

447
00:22:14,634 --> 00:22:15,644
a positive outcome.

448
00:22:15,685 --> 00:22:18,955
So in your case, maybe that is,
maybe that is what happened.

449
00:22:19,085 --> 00:22:20,945
Linus Ekenstam: Yeah, I would,
I would like to think so.

450
00:22:20,975 --> 00:22:24,425
I think maybe not just the relaxing
part, but I was never really

451
00:22:24,425 --> 00:22:25,975
stressed about it externally.

452
00:22:25,975 --> 00:22:29,334
I was never really like
manifesting this, like, Oh, you

453
00:22:29,335 --> 00:22:30,604
know, it needs to happen now.

454
00:22:30,604 --> 00:22:34,125
Like, You can see some people
have that men or women that

455
00:22:34,125 --> 00:22:36,995
they're getting stressful about
time and we need to get the kid.

456
00:22:37,025 --> 00:22:38,465
Now we need to get the things going.

457
00:22:38,965 --> 00:22:42,334
I never really had that feeling,
but I think subconsciously there

458
00:22:42,335 --> 00:22:44,314
was some level of stress, right?

459
00:22:44,335 --> 00:22:46,435
Like, why is it not working?

460
00:22:46,544 --> 00:22:47,715
You know, what have I done wrong?

461
00:22:48,314 --> 00:22:49,735
Have I done something to deserve this?

462
00:22:49,745 --> 00:22:53,254
Like, I think that type of
stress was there lingering.

463
00:22:53,624 --> 00:22:59,175
And then when, you know, got at least an
answer, like even if they were incorrect

464
00:22:59,175 --> 00:23:03,614
in that answer, seemingly I got an
answer and I was able to be like, all

465
00:23:03,614 --> 00:23:06,135
right, now we know what the problem is.

466
00:23:06,925 --> 00:23:11,735
So I think the unknown maybe
was a big kind of enabler for

467
00:23:12,225 --> 00:23:13,574
having shit happen, right?

468
00:23:13,574 --> 00:23:16,965
Like, because I didn't
know body was stressed.

469
00:23:17,045 --> 00:23:21,540
And then when I knew then, Okay,
you know, and that could have had

470
00:23:21,570 --> 00:23:25,179
impact for surely like I got a kid,
so like something happened, but

471
00:23:25,209 --> 00:23:30,600
Adam Fishman: like, yeah, you know, and
you mentioned for you, what helped was

472
00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:35,399
just talking about it to anyone, instead
of like trying to pick the perfect

473
00:23:35,399 --> 00:23:39,139
person or kind of figure out who in
your contact list should you talk to.

474
00:23:39,420 --> 00:23:42,700
So is that some of the advice that
you would offer to anyone who is

475
00:23:43,030 --> 00:23:44,740
struggling themselves with this.

476
00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:48,520
What would you say to somebody if you
were sitting down with them one on one?

477
00:23:48,660 --> 00:23:50,170
Linus Ekenstam: I would
definitely say talk about it.

478
00:23:50,170 --> 00:23:54,069
Like that would be number one,
just in every situation is unique.

479
00:23:54,069 --> 00:23:57,170
Every person is unique in terms of how
they want to handle things and like

480
00:23:57,250 --> 00:23:58,590
who they're comfortable talking to.

481
00:23:58,590 --> 00:24:02,819
So I think it's really hard to give a kind
of silver bullet advice, but talk about

482
00:24:02,819 --> 00:24:08,085
it, I think it's a very good starting
point, and if you have, You know, network

483
00:24:08,085 --> 00:24:12,845
or a friend group or a friend that, you
know, that you can talk about anything

484
00:24:12,845 --> 00:24:14,355
basically then choose that person.

485
00:24:14,395 --> 00:24:19,025
And if you don't, in my case, I couldn't
really find someone that I felt like,

486
00:24:19,085 --> 00:24:21,285
okay, this would be the perfect candidate.

487
00:24:21,835 --> 00:24:25,065
I just turned to my second home,
which is basically the internet.

488
00:24:25,095 --> 00:24:28,445
And I'd be like, I don't care if I
just scream this out in the ether.

489
00:24:28,715 --> 00:24:30,695
Like if someone picks this up, it's good.

490
00:24:30,785 --> 00:24:31,465
But that's me.

491
00:24:31,465 --> 00:24:31,939
And that's me.

492
00:24:32,180 --> 00:24:34,910
That works for me, but it doesn't
mean that it works for everyone.

493
00:24:35,010 --> 00:24:37,710
Adam Fishman: Yeah, I imagine not
everyone would be as comfortable

494
00:24:37,850 --> 00:24:39,080
putting it out on the internet.

495
00:24:39,150 --> 00:24:43,129
But, I think the underlying
advice here is solid, which

496
00:24:43,139 --> 00:24:45,389
is talk to someone about this.

497
00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:48,229
Like, you may learn something surprising.

498
00:24:48,475 --> 00:24:48,785
Right?

499
00:24:48,815 --> 00:24:53,895
You may hear that other people, again,
seven out of a hundred struggle with this.

500
00:24:53,895 --> 00:24:58,785
So you may find those other
six in, in, in conversation.

501
00:24:58,874 --> 00:25:01,294
Linus Ekenstam: Actually, funny enough,
you would, I think also at least like

502
00:25:01,295 --> 00:25:04,644
it's, if you start talking to people, it's
like, it becomes like a magnet, right?

503
00:25:05,855 --> 00:25:10,005
So even if the person that you're talking
to don't know per se anything about

504
00:25:10,005 --> 00:25:13,705
this or have those issues, maybe that
person have heard someone else who has.

505
00:25:13,725 --> 00:25:17,335
And then all of a sudden you're kind
of conjuring people together based on

506
00:25:18,015 --> 00:25:20,185
like what's going on in the grapevine.

507
00:25:20,195 --> 00:25:22,674
So I think that's usually a good
advice in many things actually in

508
00:25:22,685 --> 00:25:25,145
life, not just fertility issues.

509
00:25:25,895 --> 00:25:29,295
Adam Fishman: So I imagine
finding out that you were pregnant

510
00:25:29,465 --> 00:25:32,655
was a pretty exciting memory.

511
00:25:32,655 --> 00:25:34,625
But of course at the time you didn't know.

512
00:25:36,100 --> 00:25:37,110
Would happen, right?

513
00:25:37,110 --> 00:25:41,360
Because you had with your partner two
prior pregnancies that didn't that

514
00:25:41,360 --> 00:25:48,220
didn't go according to plan When you
eventually kind of let yourself be Excited

515
00:25:48,230 --> 00:25:53,010
or realize like hey, this is actually
really gonna happen What is the earliest

516
00:25:53,020 --> 00:25:55,739
memory that you have of becoming a dad?

517
00:25:56,670 --> 00:26:03,990
Linus Ekenstam: I think the week 24 was
kind of when the chip fell all the way

518
00:26:03,990 --> 00:26:08,245
down and I'm like I think, you know,
we're going to go through with this.

519
00:26:08,325 --> 00:26:09,055
Oh, look at that.

520
00:26:09,145 --> 00:26:09,825
Hello, cutie.

521
00:26:11,365 --> 00:26:13,585
Hey, of course you're going to come.

522
00:26:14,925 --> 00:26:16,745
Du får gå och titta på tvn älskling.

523
00:26:16,745 --> 00:26:18,105
Eller så får du sitta nere på rumpan där.

524
00:26:18,765 --> 00:26:19,145
Okay?

525
00:26:19,994 --> 00:26:20,504
Sorry.

526
00:26:21,114 --> 00:26:23,585
Adam Fishman: It wouldn't be a
Startup Dad episode without at least

527
00:26:23,585 --> 00:26:25,774
one child showing up on camera.

528
00:26:25,775 --> 00:26:27,224
Yeah.

529
00:26:27,224 --> 00:26:31,505
Linus Ekenstam: So, so, so week 24, I
was also listening to some podcasts,

530
00:26:31,505 --> 00:26:32,925
some kind of parenting podcast.

531
00:26:32,955 --> 00:26:37,075
And I think that's where
it was like dawned on me.

532
00:26:37,075 --> 00:26:37,605
And then.

533
00:26:38,235 --> 00:26:42,155
The first memory I have was basically
once Gary came out, because it was

534
00:26:42,195 --> 00:26:45,295
quite a tumultuous experience in there.

535
00:26:45,295 --> 00:26:48,835
And I was basically to give
it like, here, take her.

536
00:26:48,835 --> 00:26:52,414
And I'm like, what am I
going to do with this?

537
00:26:55,014 --> 00:26:59,205
Yeah, I still have, I know
exactly the feeling of like, it's

538
00:26:59,205 --> 00:27:00,965
a person, it's a little thing.

539
00:27:00,975 --> 00:27:02,305
Like, I don't know, can I touch it?

540
00:27:02,315 --> 00:27:03,775
Like get a poke at it?

541
00:27:03,775 --> 00:27:05,725
It was a very weird experience.

542
00:27:06,185 --> 00:27:06,435
Yeah.

543
00:27:06,435 --> 00:27:08,345
I think everyone goes through
kind of the same thing.

544
00:27:08,345 --> 00:27:08,555
And.

545
00:27:09,189 --> 00:27:13,610
I can see myself in that room, like
from a third person perspective.

546
00:27:14,110 --> 00:27:17,550
And I, today I'd be laughing at
myself being like, dude, come on.

547
00:27:19,919 --> 00:27:20,479
Adam Fishman: Yeah.

548
00:27:20,739 --> 00:27:21,209
Yeah.

549
00:27:21,370 --> 00:27:22,040
Linus Ekenstam: So that was it.

550
00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:22,829
I think that was it.

551
00:27:22,850 --> 00:27:24,739
Like the first experience there in the.

552
00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:26,320
In the room in the war.

553
00:27:26,370 --> 00:27:27,360
Adam Fishman: That's pretty amazing.

554
00:27:27,890 --> 00:27:31,140
So, you know, your youngest
daughter is walking on the camera

555
00:27:31,150 --> 00:27:32,130
as we're talking about this.

556
00:27:32,170 --> 00:27:37,000
And you mentioned your partner is
traveling and you're solo parenting

557
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:38,980
with your two kids, four and two.

558
00:27:39,309 --> 00:27:42,580
And I also know that your
partner works full time, right?

559
00:27:42,599 --> 00:27:44,530
At a tech startup herself.

560
00:27:44,850 --> 00:27:53,030
So how do the two of you manage
the daily grind of work and family?

561
00:27:53,030 --> 00:27:56,595
I mean, especially with
the ages of your kids.

562
00:27:56,655 --> 00:28:01,715
Two and four are really demanding
ages for parents and for kids.

563
00:28:01,715 --> 00:28:05,694
They need a lot and they can't
do that much for themselves.

564
00:28:06,074 --> 00:28:09,164
So how do the two of
you figure it all out?

565
00:28:09,595 --> 00:28:09,895
Yeah,

566
00:28:09,895 --> 00:28:11,534
Linus Ekenstam: we haven't
really figured it all out.

567
00:28:11,545 --> 00:28:13,025
I think that's the honest answer.

568
00:28:13,494 --> 00:28:18,310
It's funny because our four year
old, she's sometimes older than

569
00:28:18,340 --> 00:28:21,530
what she seems, uh, and sometimes
younger than what she seems.

570
00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:23,470
And then the two year old is also older.

571
00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:26,260
So it's like they meet in
the middle most of the time.

572
00:28:26,650 --> 00:28:29,360
So it's like some days it's like two
three year olds and some days it's like

573
00:28:29,360 --> 00:28:30,540
a three year old and a five year old.

574
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:34,559
So they're actually quite nice
when I'm alone with them or like

575
00:28:34,559 --> 00:28:35,719
when my partner's alone with them.

576
00:28:36,139 --> 00:28:37,589
Problem is when we're all four.

577
00:28:37,709 --> 00:28:40,409
And maybe this is something that
other parents experience too.

578
00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:44,580
It's not like they're manipulative, but
it's more that they know that If they

579
00:28:44,580 --> 00:28:48,130
don't get what they want from me, they
might get what they want from mommy.

580
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:52,690
And then the kind of war can just unfold.

581
00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:59,820
Skylu goes to what's here in Spain
called I3, which is like preschool,

582
00:28:59,820 --> 00:29:04,129
first class, and then Poppe goes to
kindergarten, but we have them short days.

583
00:29:04,129 --> 00:29:08,940
So the nine to four is basically the
time for them, but it gives me at least

584
00:29:08,950 --> 00:29:13,350
seven hours a day or six and a half
hours a day where I can focus on my work.

585
00:29:13,735 --> 00:29:18,185
And Jenny usually works a bit
more, but yeah, it's not easy.

586
00:29:18,264 --> 00:29:23,794
It's like, you have to constantly
kind of juggle all the things like

587
00:29:23,794 --> 00:29:24,955
this morning is a good example.

588
00:29:24,955 --> 00:29:29,414
Like Jenny went with a flight to
Sweden, like at 5 AM and I had promised

589
00:29:29,414 --> 00:29:30,644
your friends to go run with them.

590
00:29:30,704 --> 00:29:32,344
And I'm like, what do I do?

591
00:29:32,344 --> 00:29:33,044
I'm alone with the kids.

592
00:29:33,044 --> 00:29:33,715
It's like, okay.

593
00:29:33,784 --> 00:29:37,745
You know, 6 45, pull them out
of bed, put them in the jogger

594
00:29:38,225 --> 00:29:39,615
and like down the beach we go.

595
00:29:39,715 --> 00:29:43,485
And then an hour later, you know,
back home, push food into their

596
00:29:43,485 --> 00:29:45,664
mouths, like put the clothes on.

597
00:29:46,004 --> 00:29:49,774
You know, bags, backpacks, and then
off to deliver them to their schools.

598
00:29:50,074 --> 00:29:50,405
Yeah.

599
00:29:50,435 --> 00:29:54,165
So I think all in all, it's like just
constantly trying to be one step ahead.

600
00:29:54,374 --> 00:29:56,784
It's the only advice I can
give to anyone basically.

601
00:29:57,400 --> 00:29:59,090
Prep, prep, and prep.

602
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:01,260
That's the way that you survive the grind.

603
00:30:01,570 --> 00:30:02,440
And there's no end.

604
00:30:02,530 --> 00:30:05,930
I don't know when, but anyone can
please tell me where the end is,

605
00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:10,230
because I'm, I'm sure I'm getting
many gray hairs because of this time.

606
00:30:11,100 --> 00:30:14,730
Adam Fishman: I've heard that it's
at 18, but I'm not 100 percent sure.

607
00:30:15,019 --> 00:30:19,260
So you still got, uh, by my calculations,
you've still got 16 more years.

608
00:30:19,655 --> 00:30:24,315
until both of them are north of
the 18 mark or at the 18 mark.

609
00:30:24,315 --> 00:30:30,825
So what did you do when the kids were
younger and couldn't yet go to preschool?

610
00:30:31,095 --> 00:30:34,084
Linus Ekenstam: With Skylo we were
here and here in Spain they have three

611
00:30:34,084 --> 00:30:39,325
months initially for the mother and
then the dad can take I think it's

612
00:30:40,025 --> 00:30:43,335
another month or so it's like all in
all you get four months but then you can

613
00:30:43,335 --> 00:30:45,665
extend and you can like make it work.

614
00:30:45,665 --> 00:30:48,225
So usually what happens is that
you're home with the kids until

615
00:30:48,225 --> 00:30:52,295
they're six to eight months, and
then you can put them in, in daycare.

616
00:30:52,725 --> 00:30:53,855
Sweden's a bit different.

617
00:30:53,885 --> 00:30:57,625
So because Poppy was born in Sweden,
when we lived there, when she was born

618
00:30:58,015 --> 00:31:01,694
in Sweden, you get 450 days as a couple.

619
00:31:02,285 --> 00:31:05,195
Then there is a bit of a
divide within those days.

620
00:31:05,465 --> 00:31:07,635
Some days are like high paid days.

621
00:31:07,645 --> 00:31:11,425
So let's say 280 of those days are really.

622
00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:16,550
Compensated well, and the others are less
compensated, but you can still use them.

623
00:31:16,550 --> 00:31:21,149
And your employer cannot tell you
otherwise, which usually translates to

624
00:31:21,470 --> 00:31:24,620
you split between the parents staying
home until age of one and a half.

625
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:29,249
So that's kind of what we did, but I
work from home, Jenny works from home.

626
00:31:29,470 --> 00:31:30,010
So.

627
00:31:30,485 --> 00:31:33,835
We just spent a lot of time at home
really trying to juggle the work hours

628
00:31:33,895 --> 00:31:35,575
and shuffle things around based on that.

629
00:31:35,885 --> 00:31:36,755
Adam Fishman: There we go.

630
00:31:37,215 --> 00:31:38,555
Now we have a new guest.

631
00:31:38,865 --> 00:31:41,245
I'll ask her a question next.

632
00:31:41,344 --> 00:31:45,104
Um, would you think about
becoming a dad twice?

633
00:31:45,414 --> 00:31:49,715
And obviously before that you maybe
didn't know what it meant to be a parent.

634
00:31:49,805 --> 00:31:54,005
What are the Some of the more surprising
things that you've discovered as a dad.

635
00:31:54,555 --> 00:31:57,785
Linus Ekenstam: I think I'm more
patient than I thought I would.

636
00:31:58,065 --> 00:32:01,515
I wasn't really super patient before.

637
00:32:01,515 --> 00:32:03,085
I'm a very unpatient person.

638
00:32:03,625 --> 00:32:06,095
And even with the kids that I
started to realize that like,

639
00:32:07,535 --> 00:32:08,905
I can be quite demanding.

640
00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:12,660
As a person and in the
relationship between me and

641
00:32:12,660 --> 00:32:15,480
Jenny, I'm the firm parents.

642
00:32:15,550 --> 00:32:21,270
Like I, I like rules, even if they're
tiny, I want them to kind of not behave

643
00:32:21,289 --> 00:32:25,290
because like you can't tell two year
old to behave, but like, you don't

644
00:32:25,300 --> 00:32:27,369
bite your sister, like, by the way.

645
00:32:27,370 --> 00:32:32,060
And like, I don't try to encourage that
behavior and try really hard to like.

646
00:32:32,610 --> 00:32:33,650
Sort that out.

647
00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:35,780
And with my four year
old, it's interesting.

648
00:32:35,780 --> 00:32:37,170
Cause by the way, none
of them wear diapers.

649
00:32:37,180 --> 00:32:40,564
Not even this one, the tiny one here,
it's just diaper free, both day and night.

650
00:32:41,165 --> 00:32:43,545
It doesn't say anything about me
as a parent, but I think it's like,

651
00:32:43,605 --> 00:32:45,205
we try to listen to the kids a lot.

652
00:32:45,285 --> 00:32:49,295
And like, she started to indicate that
she wasn't keen on having diapers.

653
00:32:49,295 --> 00:32:51,485
So we kind of like, okay,
let's remove the diapers.

654
00:32:51,515 --> 00:32:53,365
And you know, what happens happens.

655
00:32:53,365 --> 00:32:55,095
And with Skylar, it was very different.

656
00:32:55,095 --> 00:32:58,545
I remember like all being like
annoyed with like having to change.

657
00:32:59,495 --> 00:33:03,675
peed, you know, bed linens and like there
was poop on the floor when we were trying

658
00:33:03,705 --> 00:33:06,085
to do all the, you know, adaptation.

659
00:33:07,995 --> 00:33:11,165
Now the second time around it's just
like, you know, it is what it is.

660
00:33:11,305 --> 00:33:12,304
Don't fuss about it.

661
00:33:12,575 --> 00:33:17,344
The kind of same mentality I
had around the fertility issues.

662
00:33:17,344 --> 00:33:18,515
Like, okay, it is what it is.

663
00:33:18,830 --> 00:33:19,980
They're going to be just fine.

664
00:33:20,070 --> 00:33:26,340
And I think if you allow them to be
kind of kids, but also tell them firmly,

665
00:33:26,340 --> 00:33:31,929
like things that you think matters
to you, like your values, and maybe

666
00:33:31,929 --> 00:33:35,559
they don't get it, but at least they
start to kind of form some kind of

667
00:33:35,559 --> 00:33:39,119
boundary or some kind of relationship
to like what our family values are.

668
00:33:39,519 --> 00:33:41,599
So for example, my four year
old, she folds her clothes.

669
00:33:42,070 --> 00:33:44,020
Like I haven't like forced
her to fold the clothes.

670
00:33:44,020 --> 00:33:48,300
I started with this kind of Marie
Kondo type thing where we just, we

671
00:33:48,300 --> 00:33:51,390
do gratitude towards the clothes in
the evening and we fold our clothes.

672
00:33:51,845 --> 00:33:54,365
And now she does it without
me telling her to do it.

673
00:33:54,385 --> 00:33:55,275
And it's great.

674
00:33:55,395 --> 00:33:59,895
Hopefully it will last, you know, and
when she's a teenager, I don't have to

675
00:33:59,895 --> 00:34:04,285
like run around picking up all of our
clothes and some people might think

676
00:34:04,295 --> 00:34:05,444
like, Oh, that you're overdoing it.

677
00:34:05,444 --> 00:34:06,274
She's only four.

678
00:34:07,234 --> 00:34:08,304
To be fair, like.

679
00:34:08,650 --> 00:34:09,940
I don't mind doing it with her.

680
00:34:09,940 --> 00:34:11,550
I think it's a nice little ritual.

681
00:34:11,550 --> 00:34:14,300
Like some people do morning
gratitude in the mirror.

682
00:34:14,300 --> 00:34:18,709
And when we do this, like it, I
think it teaches them a lot of

683
00:34:18,709 --> 00:34:23,300
things about life and things in life
and not taking things for granted.

684
00:34:23,310 --> 00:34:29,320
So I think that is stuff that I would
not have thought about before becoming a

685
00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:36,230
dad, that all the small things like I'm
right now, I'm very mentally kind of in

686
00:34:36,230 --> 00:34:41,895
this space of, The Japanese word Ikigai,
like trying to find the balance in life.

687
00:34:42,785 --> 00:34:45,045
And I think me and my partner
are pulling different ways here.

688
00:34:45,045 --> 00:34:47,725
Cause like, she's really tired of
all the chores and you know, it's

689
00:34:47,745 --> 00:34:50,524
constantly having to fix whatever
we're going to eat and you know, what

690
00:34:50,524 --> 00:34:53,465
they're going to wear and the logistics.

691
00:34:53,515 --> 00:34:55,254
And it's easy to get
caught up in all of that.

692
00:34:55,275 --> 00:34:59,275
And I'm trying to be like, how can
we turn all of that, which is life.

693
00:34:59,465 --> 00:35:00,495
You can't really take it away.

694
00:35:00,545 --> 00:35:01,835
If we stop eating, we die.

695
00:35:02,155 --> 00:35:05,115
You know, if we stop putting clothes on
them, they were going to freeze to death.

696
00:35:05,185 --> 00:35:12,104
So maybe not here, but in general, not in
Barcelona per se on the beach, but yes.

697
00:35:12,175 --> 00:35:16,684
But, but how do we take all these
daily things that happens and turn

698
00:35:16,685 --> 00:35:21,575
them into rituals or like nice little
pockets of experiences that we enjoy

699
00:35:21,615 --> 00:35:26,880
doing rather than seeing it as like,
Oh, yet another chore that needs

700
00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:31,110
to be completed before the time,
you know, before the hour hits 9 p.

701
00:35:31,110 --> 00:35:31,420
m.

702
00:35:31,780 --> 00:35:35,340
And this is really difficult,
but I think it's worth pursuing.

703
00:35:35,439 --> 00:35:42,029
I think it's worth pushing the extra
effort into that to be like, okay, it's

704
00:35:42,030 --> 00:35:45,130
not easy to go out running in the morning
with two kids, but it's damn doable.

705
00:35:45,430 --> 00:35:48,560
It's just a matter of like where
you put your mindset saying like

706
00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:51,200
this, it's not easy to be like,
Oh, I'm alone with the kids.

707
00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:54,690
I'm going to have to record a
podcast and God knows what happens.

708
00:35:54,690 --> 00:35:56,400
And now she's sitting
here and she's behaving.

709
00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:58,690
So it's like, yeah, just have to give it.

710
00:35:59,030 --> 00:36:00,700
You have to give it a
leap of faith, I think.

711
00:36:00,950 --> 00:36:01,250
Adam Fishman: Yeah.

712
00:36:01,670 --> 00:36:04,490
Even if she weren't behaving, this
would probably turn it into the most

713
00:36:04,500 --> 00:36:07,200
viewed episode of Startup Dad ever, so.

714
00:36:07,510 --> 00:36:10,460
No, but she's doing great and
it sounds like you are too, so.

715
00:36:10,500 --> 00:36:14,479
What you just said brought up something
else that you had kind of told me

716
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:19,560
in the prep for this show, which is
this notion of time and relativity.

717
00:36:20,009 --> 00:36:23,730
And I'm curious what you meant by that.

718
00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:25,760
So tell me what that means to you.

719
00:36:26,655 --> 00:36:27,135
It goes

720
00:36:27,135 --> 00:36:27,985
Linus Ekenstam: really quick.

721
00:36:28,615 --> 00:36:29,565
Someone told me this.

722
00:36:29,575 --> 00:36:32,945
I don't know where the source of
this is from, but like the days

723
00:36:32,945 --> 00:36:34,495
are long, but the years are short.

724
00:36:34,775 --> 00:36:37,939
And that's something that echoes
in my head basically every day.

725
00:36:37,939 --> 00:36:42,204
I don't like the idea of death.

726
00:36:42,245 --> 00:36:46,185
I have very strong anxiety when it
comes to the fact that we age and

727
00:36:46,185 --> 00:36:47,465
the fact that things get older.

728
00:36:47,465 --> 00:36:49,325
And at some point we're no longer here.

729
00:36:49,725 --> 00:36:55,215
So that is like one thing that keeps me
kind of vigilant about time with the kids.

730
00:36:55,225 --> 00:36:57,475
It's like, You go, Oh,
they're two and four now.

731
00:36:57,805 --> 00:36:59,935
And then, you know, they're six
and eight, whatever the ages are.

732
00:36:59,935 --> 00:37:03,255
And then you realize, Oh,
I'm also getting older.

733
00:37:04,105 --> 00:37:04,935
It's not just them.

734
00:37:04,955 --> 00:37:06,175
It's just me as well.

735
00:37:06,794 --> 00:37:13,244
And then this whole idea of like, when
I thought about having kids, I thought I

736
00:37:13,245 --> 00:37:17,815
will have kids for a long period of time,
let's say 20 years, but the reality is

737
00:37:17,835 --> 00:37:19,845
you have kids for like maybe six years.

738
00:37:20,240 --> 00:37:24,040
And then they become a different
type of thing that you have.

739
00:37:24,050 --> 00:37:25,620
They're no longer just your kids.

740
00:37:25,660 --> 00:37:27,970
They're shared with friends.

741
00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:29,540
They're shared with activities.

742
00:37:29,570 --> 00:37:32,450
They're shared with themselves
because they start figuring out who

743
00:37:32,450 --> 00:37:33,890
they are and what they like to do.

744
00:37:34,580 --> 00:37:39,080
And if I think about myself, what I
did when I was 12, I had a life outside

745
00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:42,180
of my family that was probably as
big as the life I had with my family.

746
00:37:42,580 --> 00:37:43,380
And then you sleep.

747
00:37:43,380 --> 00:37:46,410
I mean, all people sleep
quite a lot of time.

748
00:37:47,385 --> 00:37:51,765
So I think for me it was this kind of
realization that like this is the time

749
00:37:52,395 --> 00:37:57,504
probably now between like age zero or
age two basically and age six that I want

750
00:37:57,505 --> 00:37:59,845
to spend most of the time with my kids.

751
00:38:00,405 --> 00:38:05,115
Trying to do whatever I can to
reallocate the hours that I have

752
00:38:05,525 --> 00:38:07,565
and make it work better for them.

753
00:38:07,565 --> 00:38:09,004
And I'm not there.

754
00:38:09,004 --> 00:38:10,125
I'm not where I want to be.

755
00:38:10,225 --> 00:38:13,595
I'm still putting them into,
you know, storage every day for

756
00:38:13,595 --> 00:38:14,945
at least six and a half hours.

757
00:38:15,374 --> 00:38:19,904
But I think an ideal situation
for me would be possibly

758
00:38:19,925 --> 00:38:21,395
now is when POP is actually.

759
00:38:21,865 --> 00:38:25,755
You know, a bit older and she's starting
to become her own person to figure out

760
00:38:25,755 --> 00:38:29,785
a way to like, maybe work way more,
way less than I do now, not way more,

761
00:38:30,005 --> 00:38:34,075
spend way more time with them and
take the next few years and do that.

762
00:38:34,125 --> 00:38:35,385
And then I know that like.

763
00:38:36,055 --> 00:38:39,745
I did my best during those years and
then I can, you know, I can kind of

764
00:38:39,745 --> 00:38:42,605
work harder later because there's
always, hopefully always going to be

765
00:38:42,605 --> 00:38:44,845
work, if not AI comes and takes it all.

766
00:38:44,845 --> 00:38:46,315
But I'm not worried about that.

767
00:38:46,325 --> 00:38:49,824
I'm actually more worried about not
getting enough time with the kids.

768
00:38:50,135 --> 00:38:51,124
It's formative years.

769
00:38:51,124 --> 00:38:54,305
I think many people don't realize, but
it's very formative years, like the

770
00:38:54,314 --> 00:38:56,205
first six years are super important.

771
00:38:56,205 --> 00:39:02,015
Adam Fishman: Have you developed
through two kids any particular

772
00:39:02,015 --> 00:39:05,014
frameworks or guardrails for parenting?

773
00:39:05,345 --> 00:39:09,405
Anything that you would say is like
systematized in your household?

774
00:39:09,595 --> 00:39:14,815
By the way, it's totally okay if the
answer is absolutely not, but I'm curious.

775
00:39:15,215 --> 00:39:16,994
Linus Ekenstam: I listened
to this interview with a guy.

776
00:39:16,994 --> 00:39:18,185
I don't remember his name.

777
00:39:18,295 --> 00:39:21,845
He's a famous hedge fund
person, maybe or VC.

778
00:39:22,324 --> 00:39:25,335
And he kept saying this thing,
Oh, but this mantra over and over.

779
00:39:25,335 --> 00:39:28,035
And I'm like, it's not a framework,
but I guess the mantra is there.

780
00:39:28,475 --> 00:39:30,445
And it's like, be curious, not furious.

781
00:39:31,995 --> 00:39:34,005
Repeat that to yourself internally.

782
00:39:34,185 --> 00:39:38,425
They, they being the kids, they,
everything for them is a game.

783
00:39:38,815 --> 00:39:42,805
Everything for them is like an
experience and they're learning

784
00:39:42,815 --> 00:39:46,275
and they're learning by observing,
by doing, by pushing, by pulling.

785
00:39:46,945 --> 00:39:49,214
And we're adults and we're adults.

786
00:39:49,224 --> 00:39:54,384
Sometimes we're angry adults and
sometimes we are tired adults.

787
00:39:54,384 --> 00:40:01,975
And it's really hard to stay playful
and stay curious when you have.

788
00:40:02,565 --> 00:40:03,595
rough patches.

789
00:40:03,665 --> 00:40:09,275
And I think that kind of mantra
of be curious, not furious is

790
00:40:09,775 --> 00:40:14,045
something that helped me a lot
because I can just be like, okay,

791
00:40:14,045 --> 00:40:16,335
well look at it from her angle.

792
00:40:16,674 --> 00:40:20,184
She's four, she's done something,
she knows it's wrong, whatever,

793
00:40:20,204 --> 00:40:22,034
but she's doing it for a reason.

794
00:40:22,034 --> 00:40:24,145
And the reason is she's probably
want to learn something.

795
00:40:24,385 --> 00:40:26,965
She want to see what type of
reaction you are going to give.

796
00:40:27,405 --> 00:40:29,145
She wants to learn and experience.

797
00:40:29,145 --> 00:40:32,385
And so I think that is
the number one thing.

798
00:40:32,785 --> 00:40:34,054
And then I'm not very.

799
00:40:34,540 --> 00:40:39,350
big on systemizing or, or
pulling out frameworks.

800
00:40:40,385 --> 00:40:42,215
In general as a person.

801
00:40:42,545 --> 00:40:45,755
There's one thing I've I've started to
do with Sky because she's a bit older,

802
00:40:46,075 --> 00:40:49,675
and that is this type of feedback or
affirmation feedback where I think a lot

803
00:40:49,675 --> 00:40:54,625
of sports coaches do this where they get
down on the kids' level, they usually like

804
00:40:54,625 --> 00:40:58,075
put a hand on the shoulder, they lift them
in the eye and they give them feedback on

805
00:40:58,285 --> 00:41:02,445
something they did, either if it's good
or bad, and then they tell them why it

806
00:41:02,445 --> 00:41:04,665
was good or bad and what that leads to.

807
00:41:04,665 --> 00:41:07,245
So basically you're going
closing and really kind of

808
00:41:08,355 --> 00:41:10,395
there in their moment and you.

809
00:41:10,635 --> 00:41:14,855
Try to build the kind of
mental model for them.

810
00:41:14,865 --> 00:41:19,045
Like if you do this, that leads to
Adam getting this really great thing.

811
00:41:19,045 --> 00:41:21,525
And that leads to you as a
team winning, for example.

812
00:41:21,965 --> 00:41:25,435
And that's a really helpful
way for me to give her.

813
00:41:26,210 --> 00:41:28,370
criticism, but also
like to give her praise.

814
00:41:28,700 --> 00:41:32,320
So that is something that has worked very

815
00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:32,660
Adam Fishman: well.

816
00:41:32,730 --> 00:41:36,120
It's interesting that you mentioned
that in one of my very first startup

817
00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:39,840
dad episodes, I talked with Matt
Greenberg and he talked about this

818
00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:43,720
concept they have in their household
of bringing the limit to the child,

819
00:41:44,229 --> 00:41:47,480
which is basically like, instead of,
you know, kind of shouting across the

820
00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:51,595
room or, Hey, do that or whatever, like,
Kids are just going to tune that out.

821
00:41:51,595 --> 00:41:55,555
So going them, establishing contact,
getting down on their level, basically

822
00:41:55,555 --> 00:41:58,884
exactly what you described and it works.

823
00:41:59,175 --> 00:42:02,875
So regardless of what the framework is
called, it's a practice that I think.

824
00:42:03,535 --> 00:42:06,855
I was certainly me personally can
definitely implement more at home and

825
00:42:06,855 --> 00:42:11,365
hopefully other people listening to this
will benefit from it I know your partner

826
00:42:11,365 --> 00:42:16,345
is not here at the moment because She's
on an airplane or she's somewhere else

827
00:42:16,345 --> 00:42:21,855
in a work trip Yeah, she's on a work trip
or as we call that parent vacation Um,

828
00:42:22,985 --> 00:42:28,975
I have found that partnership is really
important when you have kids, but it is

829
00:42:29,005 --> 00:42:34,574
also really difficult to agree 100 percent
of the time with your significant other.

830
00:42:34,805 --> 00:42:39,994
Where is an area that you and your partner
don't agree or see things differently?

831
00:42:39,995 --> 00:42:42,075
It kind of works.

832
00:42:42,575 --> 00:42:43,935
She's not here to defend herself.

833
00:42:44,555 --> 00:42:47,095
She'll probably never listen
to this or watch this.

834
00:42:47,105 --> 00:42:49,115
So it, you know, it's totally fine.

835
00:42:49,405 --> 00:42:50,465
It's just between us.

836
00:42:50,535 --> 00:42:53,384
I

837
00:42:54,345 --> 00:43:00,485
Linus Ekenstam: mean, I'm a tidy person
in general, like on the OCD spectrum,

838
00:43:00,575 --> 00:43:04,155
preferably, like I like having order.

839
00:43:04,195 --> 00:43:08,554
I like doing things, you know,
sequentially and like I tidy up

840
00:43:08,584 --> 00:43:10,505
afterwards and I like putting the kit.

841
00:43:10,995 --> 00:43:13,125
So every pixel in its place, right?

842
00:43:13,125 --> 00:43:14,635
You're a designer by trade.

843
00:43:16,135 --> 00:43:20,515
Yeah, I like to kind of do that
with the kids to like really have

844
00:43:20,515 --> 00:43:22,825
a good kind of way of doing things.

845
00:43:22,905 --> 00:43:26,395
I think when we're all four of us,
also the kids are not behaving as well.

846
00:43:26,405 --> 00:43:31,034
So it's easy for us to get in this
situation where our apartment or

847
00:43:31,034 --> 00:43:36,844
home just turns into this inside
out explosion, basically, just

848
00:43:36,884 --> 00:43:39,094
things everywhere and a tornado.

849
00:43:39,324 --> 00:43:39,694
Yes.

850
00:43:40,245 --> 00:43:42,135
And that leads to other things, right?

851
00:43:42,135 --> 00:43:46,335
And because if you don't have a
clean ground to do things on, then,

852
00:43:46,345 --> 00:43:47,885
you know, you can't really cook.

853
00:43:47,975 --> 00:43:50,224
And if you can't cook, then
you can't like, so it's just a

854
00:43:50,225 --> 00:43:51,715
spillover effect on a lot of things.

855
00:43:51,755 --> 00:43:52,874
So we don't really agree there.

856
00:43:52,875 --> 00:43:56,655
Cause like, she wants to kind
of outsource this and be like,

857
00:43:56,655 --> 00:43:57,574
Oh, we just get a cleaner.

858
00:43:57,575 --> 00:44:00,335
I'm like a cleaner won't really
help the situation because we would

859
00:44:00,345 --> 00:44:01,605
have a cleaner living with us.

860
00:44:01,915 --> 00:44:03,755
I can say it's a constant.

861
00:44:04,365 --> 00:44:06,745
I'm not against having someone
coming to help us clean, but

862
00:44:06,745 --> 00:44:08,635
like, that's not the issue.

863
00:44:09,265 --> 00:44:10,305
And then I think.

864
00:44:11,450 --> 00:44:14,640
We're very different in terms of
parenting style, which I think it's

865
00:44:14,660 --> 00:44:19,270
great, but it's also sometimes a bit
difficult because I might, again,

866
00:44:19,270 --> 00:44:20,660
like I said, I'm a bit more firm.

867
00:44:20,909 --> 00:44:28,479
I'm not by any means like hard, but
I'm firm and she's a bit more loose

868
00:44:28,479 --> 00:44:32,030
and soft, which I think it's good
for the kids too, that they have kind

869
00:44:32,030 --> 00:44:36,530
of two, two different models to look
up to, but it becomes difficult at

870
00:44:36,530 --> 00:44:40,709
times when we need to like parent
together and like have a unified front.

871
00:44:41,155 --> 00:44:42,264
Yeah.

872
00:44:42,265 --> 00:44:45,525
I think I'm giving up some parts
as you're giving up some parts.

873
00:44:45,545 --> 00:44:46,325
It's a compromise.

874
00:44:46,385 --> 00:44:53,125
And I think in the end it becomes great,
but these are tricky, tricky situations.

875
00:44:53,214 --> 00:44:56,934
And again, like I don't think
there's a one size fits all solution.

876
00:44:57,204 --> 00:44:58,295
Everyone's different.

877
00:44:58,404 --> 00:45:01,634
We're both very stubborn, which
we've also realized with our kids,

878
00:45:01,674 --> 00:45:03,254
like they're both super stubborn.

879
00:45:03,675 --> 00:45:03,915
Yeah.

880
00:45:03,915 --> 00:45:06,685
This one way more stubborn
than her big sister.

881
00:45:07,275 --> 00:45:08,135
So we got that.

882
00:45:09,245 --> 00:45:09,555
Yeah.

883
00:45:10,165 --> 00:45:10,515
Yeah.

884
00:45:11,715 --> 00:45:13,005
Adam Fishman: A stubborn household.

885
00:45:13,045 --> 00:45:13,295
Yes.

886
00:45:13,295 --> 00:45:14,195
Recipe for success.

887
00:45:14,855 --> 00:45:17,335
Linus Ekenstam: At least I know
nobody will sit on this person.

888
00:45:17,345 --> 00:45:18,664
Like she will be fierce.

889
00:45:18,724 --> 00:45:19,574
And that's right.

890
00:45:19,635 --> 00:45:21,645
I'm looking forward to see
like how that turns out.

891
00:45:22,525 --> 00:45:24,565
Adam Fishman: You're going to get a
lot of phone calls from the school.

892
00:45:24,895 --> 00:45:29,305
Speaking of which, we talked about
at the very beginning of the episode,

893
00:45:29,565 --> 00:45:31,385
what it means to be an AI gardener.

894
00:45:31,945 --> 00:45:35,375
And I'm curious a couple of things.

895
00:45:35,715 --> 00:45:39,334
What are you working on in
the world of AI right now?

896
00:45:39,870 --> 00:45:42,680
And then I want to hear
about how you think.

897
00:45:43,425 --> 00:45:49,135
AI is going to change your kid's
relationship with technology and learning.

898
00:45:49,515 --> 00:45:52,885
And again, we're all just
speculating here, but I'm

899
00:45:52,885 --> 00:45:54,394
curious about your speculation.

900
00:45:54,404 --> 00:45:55,785
So two questions there.

901
00:45:55,785 --> 00:45:57,635
What are you working on specifically?

902
00:45:57,635 --> 00:46:01,084
And then what do you think your
kid's experience is going to be like?

903
00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:02,030
With ai?

904
00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:06,090
Linus Ekenstam: Yeah, so I'm working
actively on a few projects, but like

905
00:46:06,090 --> 00:46:09,810
I think the one that we've worked
on the longest is Bedtime Story ai,

906
00:46:10,080 --> 00:46:15,030
which is a cool hyper personalization
engine for creating stories for kids.

907
00:46:16,390 --> 00:46:20,940
So you can basically punch in a
really tiny prompt and remembers

908
00:46:20,945 --> 00:46:24,720
characters and stuff, and then you
can get an infinite amount of stories.

909
00:46:24,720 --> 00:46:27,210
So that's something we've
been working on since 2022.

910
00:46:27,750 --> 00:46:29,100
Super happy about that.

911
00:46:29,580 --> 00:46:31,590
And then I'm doing a few other things.

912
00:46:31,965 --> 00:46:36,155
In the same kind of realm of the
stuff that we learned from doing that.

913
00:46:36,185 --> 00:46:40,335
We're building a mental health coach
that is already existing in an app

914
00:46:40,345 --> 00:46:42,915
that we have on the app store, but
we're kind of making it better.

915
00:46:43,475 --> 00:46:47,505
And I'm dipping my toes potentially
into hardware because I do think

916
00:46:47,505 --> 00:46:52,655
there's a huge gap, many gaps actually
in the hardware slash AI intersect.

917
00:46:52,735 --> 00:46:57,315
I think in general terminology, AI will
probably kind of dissipate and go away.

918
00:46:57,345 --> 00:47:00,785
So it just will become the next
version of software in general.

919
00:47:01,375 --> 00:47:05,355
But I think the experience these kids will
have, and I guess the entire generation,

920
00:47:05,375 --> 00:47:08,795
I guess, from, you know, whatever, whoever
is five and younger or 10 and younger

921
00:47:08,795 --> 00:47:13,214
today, I hope they will have a better
relationship with technology than we had.

922
00:47:13,835 --> 00:47:15,615
I don't know, how do I
usually talk about this?

923
00:47:16,285 --> 00:47:21,135
So we come from an age where
we had to curate a lot.

924
00:47:21,174 --> 00:47:25,650
We had to Search and become almost like
a librarian, like if you're good at

925
00:47:25,650 --> 00:47:29,270
searching, you're good at finding and
sifting through information, you can

926
00:47:29,270 --> 00:47:32,880
somehow build a mental model of things
that you will need to look up and the

927
00:47:32,880 --> 00:47:34,840
technology that we've used quite dumb.

928
00:47:35,430 --> 00:47:42,260
And I think of this generation,
they will become way more driven by.

929
00:47:42,670 --> 00:47:46,190
Kind of curation in a different
way where like, if they need

930
00:47:46,190 --> 00:47:49,060
information, they'll just be like,
they need to be good at inquiry.

931
00:47:49,250 --> 00:47:51,990
They need to be good at like
asking questions and being curious.

932
00:47:52,630 --> 00:47:56,770
And if they can become good at that,
they will be very successful because it's

933
00:47:56,899 --> 00:48:01,610
not going to be a matter of like, can
I find the information through search?

934
00:48:01,619 --> 00:48:02,370
It's going to be a.

935
00:48:02,990 --> 00:48:06,100
A question about, can I figure
out the right question to ask?

936
00:48:06,710 --> 00:48:11,240
And if I can ask the right question
and I have some base knowledge, can I

937
00:48:11,270 --> 00:48:17,080
then take these sources of information
and distill it and curate out the best?

938
00:48:17,620 --> 00:48:21,479
And also the fact that I think
they will form relationships with

939
00:48:21,489 --> 00:48:23,380
machines in ways we never did.

940
00:48:23,989 --> 00:48:27,710
I see very clearly with, for example,
the mental coach app that I'm building.

941
00:48:27,950 --> 00:48:32,549
We're like, I can actually see myself
having a pretty good relationship with my.

942
00:48:33,110 --> 00:48:39,260
Artificial coach, which, and I'm like,
if you would have asked me four years

943
00:48:39,260 --> 00:48:42,660
ago, will you talk to a computer more
than you talk to a human counselor?

944
00:48:42,660 --> 00:48:43,269
I'd be like, no.

945
00:48:44,330 --> 00:48:46,469
And now it's very, I do it today.

946
00:48:46,469 --> 00:48:49,559
And then I'm like, be like, okay, what
are they going to do in 10 years time?

947
00:48:49,850 --> 00:48:52,400
It's going to be super normal,
I think, for people to have

948
00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:53,680
relationships with machines.

949
00:48:54,380 --> 00:48:59,089
I tend to look a lot at science fiction
and be like, you know, life imitate arts

950
00:48:59,200 --> 00:49:03,029
more than art imitates life, whatever
that old saying is or the quote.

951
00:49:03,640 --> 00:49:07,469
And as soon as we've dreamed something
up in science fiction world, it tends

952
00:49:07,470 --> 00:49:10,910
to become reality 10, 20, 30 years.

953
00:49:12,120 --> 00:49:16,220
And now we're kind of in the 30, 35,
40 year realm where we look at things

954
00:49:16,220 --> 00:49:20,630
as the tricorder and the communicator
from Star Trek, for example, and now

955
00:49:20,630 --> 00:49:25,189
we're getting the AI pin and we have
smartphones that are basically like,

956
00:49:25,240 --> 00:49:26,650
you know, supercomputer in the pocket.

957
00:49:27,190 --> 00:49:29,089
So I choose to be an optimist.

958
00:49:29,450 --> 00:49:32,330
Obviously, it's really easy to like,
look at all of this and be like, you

959
00:49:32,330 --> 00:49:35,290
can look at one side of the sword or the
other and you'd be like, okay, there's

960
00:49:35,290 --> 00:49:36,670
plenty of bad things that can happen.

961
00:49:36,680 --> 00:49:38,910
But I choose to believe in humanity.

962
00:49:38,910 --> 00:49:42,060
I choose to be like, okay, we can
actually do good things with this.

963
00:49:42,060 --> 00:49:46,700
And I hope that my kind of my mission
again is to like, help bring that

964
00:49:46,960 --> 00:49:50,620
optimistic future forward, that we
kind of end up in a better world

965
00:49:50,620 --> 00:49:52,180
than, than the one that we have.

966
00:49:52,750 --> 00:49:55,809
Might look dire at the very moment
right now, like there's a lot of bad

967
00:49:55,810 --> 00:49:59,179
stuff going on, but in general, I
still, I'm optimistic about the future.

968
00:50:00,020 --> 00:50:01,710
Adam Fishman: I love that perspective.

969
00:50:02,040 --> 00:50:02,990
Love that optimism.

970
00:50:03,099 --> 00:50:06,550
What's not to be optimistic about
with those two little kids too.

971
00:50:07,030 --> 00:50:11,220
So you've got two working parents and
a two year old and a four year old.

972
00:50:11,690 --> 00:50:15,190
And I imagine that that means
you need to recharge your own

973
00:50:15,190 --> 00:50:16,670
batteries from time to time.

974
00:50:17,300 --> 00:50:20,659
So, you mentioned going running
on the beach with your girls.

975
00:50:20,839 --> 00:50:21,169
Yep.

976
00:50:21,220 --> 00:50:24,950
What are some other ways that
you recharge your batteries

977
00:50:24,950 --> 00:50:26,230
when you're feeling depleted?

978
00:50:26,619 --> 00:50:28,010
Linus Ekenstam: I don't
remember, basically.

979
00:50:28,530 --> 00:50:33,870
We tried to impose this new rule this
year, that like, we'll go on a date.

980
00:50:34,245 --> 00:50:37,945
Each month, like a proper, we'll
take, we'll take a day and go

981
00:50:37,945 --> 00:50:39,265
somewhere and do a proper date.

982
00:50:39,785 --> 00:50:41,095
We did that January.

983
00:50:41,095 --> 00:50:42,215
We did that February.

984
00:50:42,215 --> 00:50:44,955
And then we stopped because schedule
wise didn't really work out.

985
00:50:45,055 --> 00:50:48,935
We're supposed to have a date
tomorrow, but, but since Jenny's

986
00:50:48,935 --> 00:50:50,734
in Stockholm, or your partner's

987
00:50:50,734 --> 00:50:51,054
Adam Fishman: gone,

988
00:50:51,134 --> 00:50:53,665
Linus Ekenstam: I was like, okay,
let's have a date with myself.

989
00:50:54,165 --> 00:50:54,715
And then.

990
00:50:55,105 --> 00:50:58,635
We try to at least once a week do
something that's not like a date, but

991
00:50:58,635 --> 00:51:01,975
like we hang out, we do some stuff that
without the kids when they're in school,

992
00:51:01,975 --> 00:51:04,885
we take an hour or two and just do
something like a long lunch or something.

993
00:51:04,885 --> 00:51:08,334
We're just trying to find the time in
the business schedules that we have.

994
00:51:08,665 --> 00:51:12,424
I mean, I was just on
a parent vacation too.

995
00:51:12,424 --> 00:51:16,065
I spent two weeks in the U S I was
in San Francisco and I was in Vegas.

996
00:51:16,075 --> 00:51:20,695
So like I got my fair share of
relaxation when I was there when

997
00:51:20,695 --> 00:51:21,965
you don't have to deal with it.

998
00:51:21,965 --> 00:51:25,545
And it's just like, okay, everything
is just like heart like blissful,

999
00:51:25,605 --> 00:51:29,265
like you can see, even if I don't
tend to sleep that much longer, I,

1000
00:51:29,355 --> 00:51:32,675
I still, you know, nobody's going
to wake me up at 3am screaming.

1001
00:51:32,905 --> 00:51:34,055
So thank you for sharing

1002
00:51:34,065 --> 00:51:37,135
Adam Fishman: how you've attempted to
recharge your batteries with your partner.

1003
00:51:37,515 --> 00:51:38,964
I have two final questions for you.

1004
00:51:39,205 --> 00:51:43,304
One is what is a mistake
that you've made as a dad?

1005
00:51:44,115 --> 00:51:48,185
Linus Ekenstam: So I do mistakes every
single day, a hundred percent, like it

1006
00:51:48,185 --> 00:51:53,255
can be the way that I react to someone
throwing something on the floor.

1007
00:51:53,335 --> 00:51:56,295
Like, let's say we're eating breakfast
and you know, not the two year old,

1008
00:51:56,324 --> 00:51:59,675
like she's two, but the four year old,
she can be like, take her sandwich

1009
00:51:59,685 --> 00:52:02,525
and be like, dropping it on the floor.

1010
00:52:02,544 --> 00:52:05,014
And then I'd be like, I'd become angry.

1011
00:52:05,124 --> 00:52:06,844
Like my initial response is then angry.

1012
00:52:06,844 --> 00:52:07,764
And then I'd be like, Oh shit.

1013
00:52:07,765 --> 00:52:10,935
No, you know, breathe in, breathe
out, be curious, not furious.

1014
00:52:10,955 --> 00:52:11,874
Why did you, like, you know, I don't know.

1015
00:52:12,035 --> 00:52:14,345
All these things, but
like I already reacted.

1016
00:52:14,345 --> 00:52:15,275
So like that's right.

1017
00:52:15,275 --> 00:52:17,025
You know, these kind of
daily mistakes happen.

1018
00:52:17,515 --> 00:52:19,105
And I think funny mistakes.

1019
00:52:19,375 --> 00:52:24,645
I took her driving once, put her in
the, you know, her stole in the car

1020
00:52:24,645 --> 00:52:26,835
and gave her a bunch of blueberries.

1021
00:52:26,835 --> 00:52:28,695
And then I went driving this really.

1022
00:52:29,550 --> 00:52:31,810
Like twist and turn the road.

1023
00:52:31,810 --> 00:52:33,140
And I know where this is going.

1024
00:52:34,990 --> 00:52:40,599
And I just look at the road and I just
hear like, and I look over and she had

1025
00:52:40,600 --> 00:52:44,020
this like white, yellow flower dress.

1026
00:52:44,090 --> 00:52:45,580
That's no longer white.

1027
00:52:45,620 --> 00:52:47,450
It's just covered in puke.

1028
00:52:47,789 --> 00:52:48,029
Yeah.

1029
00:52:48,030 --> 00:52:50,320
And I realized I don't have any wet wipes.

1030
00:52:50,665 --> 00:52:54,345
I don't have any water in the
car and she's sitting in this

1031
00:52:54,355 --> 00:52:56,175
floating of puke in her chair.

1032
00:52:56,575 --> 00:52:59,738
And I'm like, that's a mistake,
a massive mistake on my end,

1033
00:52:59,738 --> 00:53:02,053
but that's a funny mistake too.

1034
00:53:02,053 --> 00:53:04,335
Um, but yeah, man, I did it.

1035
00:53:04,385 --> 00:53:07,274
Maybe it sounded good, all the
stuff that we've talked about in the

1036
00:53:07,274 --> 00:53:10,684
beginning, but it also comes with a
caveat that there is a lot of trial

1037
00:53:10,684 --> 00:53:12,795
and error going on every day, you know?

1038
00:53:12,805 --> 00:53:13,185
Oh, yeah.

1039
00:53:13,245 --> 00:53:18,045
And I think, I don't know again who
said this, but like, If you're a parent,

1040
00:53:18,105 --> 00:53:22,405
if you do more right than wrong, if
you're on the plus side on the right

1041
00:53:22,415 --> 00:53:23,765
stuff, you're doing things good.

1042
00:53:23,875 --> 00:53:26,135
Like you just need to make
sure you equal that out.

1043
00:53:26,145 --> 00:53:29,365
So you're like constantly putting
in more on the right side.

1044
00:53:29,495 --> 00:53:31,904
Adam Fishman: It's like building
software for people, right?

1045
00:53:32,064 --> 00:53:33,234
Except you're building humans.

1046
00:53:33,234 --> 00:53:35,995
Lots of trial and error in
building software, lots of trial

1047
00:53:35,995 --> 00:53:37,265
and error in raising humans.

1048
00:53:37,325 --> 00:53:37,895
I get it.

1049
00:53:38,725 --> 00:53:43,435
So I wanted to end and just ask,
how can people follow along on

1050
00:53:43,435 --> 00:53:45,624
your journey or be helpful to you?

1051
00:53:45,985 --> 00:53:50,485
As you survive and thrive with
your family and on the internet.

1052
00:53:50,765 --> 00:53:51,325
Linus Ekenstam: Two ways.

1053
00:53:51,325 --> 00:53:54,915
The closest ways to stay close
to me is like my newsletter.

1054
00:53:54,925 --> 00:53:56,065
I write the newsletter.

1055
00:53:56,135 --> 00:53:56,425
Okay.

1056
00:53:56,425 --> 00:53:59,745
It's supposed to be weekly, but it's like
some weeks is more, some weeks is less.

1057
00:53:59,774 --> 00:54:01,125
So it's inside my head.

1058
00:54:01,205 --> 00:54:01,755
ai.

1059
00:54:01,775 --> 00:54:02,225
So that's.

1060
00:54:02,815 --> 00:54:03,915
Inside my head.

1061
00:54:04,365 --> 00:54:06,885
ai and then I'm on X or Twitter.

1062
00:54:07,025 --> 00:54:08,575
So that will be x.

1063
00:54:08,815 --> 00:54:11,055
com slash my name, Linus Eckenstam.

1064
00:54:11,725 --> 00:54:16,805
And I also, I have this idea this year,
it's not like I don't have enough to do,

1065
00:54:16,995 --> 00:54:19,454
but I'm slowly starting my YouTube career.

1066
00:54:19,454 --> 00:54:20,444
So I like doing video.

1067
00:54:20,444 --> 00:54:21,694
I like doing talking heads.

1068
00:54:21,694 --> 00:54:25,135
I like doing a lot of this stuff
and talking about everything from.

1069
00:54:25,380 --> 00:54:27,340
technology to kind of parenthood.

1070
00:54:27,660 --> 00:54:31,220
So you'll find me on YouTube as
well, which is Leinosekistan.

1071
00:54:31,680 --> 00:54:34,240
And it's probably like two people
following me there or five.

1072
00:54:34,240 --> 00:54:37,130
So feel free to, to become number six.

1073
00:54:37,879 --> 00:54:38,450
But yeah, that's fine.

1074
00:54:38,450 --> 00:54:41,520
And I'm also sharing my journey because
I'm right now sitting in this new

1075
00:54:41,520 --> 00:54:44,879
space that we have here in Barcelona
that I'm turning into kind of a, you

1076
00:54:44,879 --> 00:54:50,140
know, second kind of man cave slash
studio slash creative outlet space.

1077
00:54:50,180 --> 00:54:54,840
So, um, posting videos on how
I'm turning this into that

1078
00:54:54,840 --> 00:54:56,430
space because I'm DIYing it.

1079
00:54:56,430 --> 00:54:57,560
I'm doing everything myself.

1080
00:54:58,020 --> 00:54:58,750
Very cool.

1081
00:54:58,750 --> 00:54:59,640
That's an interesting journey.

1082
00:55:00,070 --> 00:55:01,380
Kids are involved.

1083
00:55:01,980 --> 00:55:03,360
Adam Fishman: I was going to
say, like you mentioned, not

1084
00:55:03,360 --> 00:55:04,540
that you have enough going on.

1085
00:55:04,540 --> 00:55:07,689
You're also now like building
out a room in your house.

1086
00:55:08,160 --> 00:55:08,780
This is an actual,

1087
00:55:08,780 --> 00:55:09,890
Linus Ekenstam: actually it's a big space.

1088
00:55:09,890 --> 00:55:12,950
It's a two and a half, it's a two
and a half thousand square feet,

1089
00:55:13,210 --> 00:55:17,350
3000 square feet studio space,
basically a block from where we live.

1090
00:55:17,350 --> 00:55:20,729
So it's separated from our
house and it's an old warehouse.

1091
00:55:20,740 --> 00:55:22,220
So it's high ceilings.

1092
00:55:22,390 --> 00:55:25,519
Adam Fishman: People in Silicon Valley
would be very jealous of that space.

1093
00:55:25,839 --> 00:55:28,380
It's, it's the aesthetic
that we strive for here.

1094
00:55:28,400 --> 00:55:33,420
So Linus, if you're ready, I'd love to
do a quick round of rapid fire with you.

1095
00:55:33,420 --> 00:55:36,179
And then you can get back to your
four year old and two year old.

1096
00:55:36,229 --> 00:55:37,770
Are you ready for rapid fire?

1097
00:55:38,330 --> 00:55:38,710
Linus Ekenstam: Yes,

1098
00:55:38,720 --> 00:55:39,030
Adam Fishman: let's go.

1099
00:55:39,060 --> 00:55:39,590
Okay.

1100
00:55:39,640 --> 00:55:44,200
What is the most indispensable parenting
product that you have ever purchased?

1101
00:55:44,870 --> 00:55:45,710
BabyBjorn.

1102
00:55:46,530 --> 00:55:47,180
Ooh, the BabyBjorn.

1103
00:55:48,160 --> 00:55:48,890
Big fan.

1104
00:55:49,210 --> 00:55:54,015
What is the best piece of parenting
advice that you have ever Received.

1105
00:55:54,955 --> 00:55:55,405
None.

1106
00:55:58,165 --> 00:56:02,215
What is the worst piece of parenting
advice that you've ever received?

1107
00:56:02,825 --> 00:56:03,994
Linus Ekenstam: Oh, sleep training.

1108
00:56:06,235 --> 00:56:10,625
Adam Fishman: Okay, what
is your go to dad wardrobe?

1109
00:56:11,985 --> 00:56:15,575
Linus Ekenstam: black t shirt and
black jeans and then they drool all

1110
00:56:15,575 --> 00:56:19,884
over it and it clearly shows that I'm
a dad because I'm like going into a

1111
00:56:19,935 --> 00:56:23,835
cafe and I'm just all drooled on or
like there's snot everywhere, so yeah.

1112
00:56:23,835 --> 00:56:24,944
I love that.

1113
00:56:25,034 --> 00:56:25,494
Yeah.

1114
00:56:26,425 --> 00:56:30,234
Adam Fishman: Have you ever used your kids
as an excuse to get out of a social event?

1115
00:56:30,994 --> 00:56:33,044
Yes, of course.

1116
00:56:33,684 --> 00:56:36,274
Linus Ekenstam: If anyone tells
differently, they're lying.

1117
00:56:36,414 --> 00:56:40,044
Ah, what is your favorite kids movie?

1118
00:56:41,425 --> 00:56:42,595
Uh, a good one.

1119
00:56:42,595 --> 00:56:44,530
I think ca uh, Encanto.

1120
00:56:45,090 --> 00:56:46,190
Adam Fishman: Oh, Encanto.

1121
00:56:46,345 --> 00:56:46,705
Yeah.

1122
00:56:46,710 --> 00:56:47,035
Yes.

1123
00:56:47,425 --> 00:56:47,935
Yeah.

1124
00:56:48,355 --> 00:56:54,325
What is one movie that you cannot
wait to force your daughters to watch?

1125
00:56:55,585 --> 00:56:59,185
Linus Ekenstam: Oh, I already started
forcing to watch all stories, but random

1126
00:56:59,185 --> 00:57:04,305
stuff that maybe something that's a
bit more with, uh, violence in it.

1127
00:57:04,305 --> 00:57:04,695
I don't know.

1128
00:57:04,695 --> 00:57:05,625
Maybe Star Wars.

1129
00:57:06,440 --> 00:57:07,390
I'm going to force that upon them.

1130
00:57:08,170 --> 00:57:08,450
That's

1131
00:57:08,450 --> 00:57:08,800
Adam Fishman: great.

1132
00:57:09,140 --> 00:57:11,850
Linus Ekenstam: I mean, the caveat
here, I'm watching all the SpaceX

1133
00:57:11,880 --> 00:57:13,340
launches basically with both of my kids.

1134
00:57:13,410 --> 00:57:14,820
Adam Fishman: Ah, very fun.

1135
00:57:14,820 --> 00:57:14,930
I'm

1136
00:57:15,120 --> 00:57:16,970
Linus Ekenstam: indoctrinating them early.

1137
00:57:17,280 --> 00:57:17,570
That's

1138
00:57:17,640 --> 00:57:17,910
Adam Fishman: good.

1139
00:57:19,100 --> 00:57:21,100
Now your daughter's names are unique.

1140
00:57:21,180 --> 00:57:23,330
Have you ever mixed up your kids names?

1141
00:57:23,900 --> 00:57:24,520
No.

1142
00:57:24,949 --> 00:57:25,449
Okay.

1143
00:57:25,750 --> 00:57:26,120
Good.

1144
00:57:26,230 --> 00:57:28,320
Plus one for unique names.

1145
00:57:29,110 --> 00:57:33,910
How long can a piece of food
sit on the floor in your house

1146
00:57:33,970 --> 00:57:35,189
and you will still eat it?

1147
00:57:35,780 --> 00:57:36,890
10 seconds.

1148
00:57:37,150 --> 00:57:37,960
Ooh, 10.

1149
00:57:38,070 --> 00:57:38,610
Okay.

1150
00:57:39,120 --> 00:57:39,740
Alright.

1151
00:57:40,020 --> 00:57:44,480
How often do you tell your
daughters, Back in my day stories.

1152
00:57:45,370 --> 00:57:46,040
Not yet.

1153
00:57:46,370 --> 00:57:46,880
Okay.

1154
00:57:47,240 --> 00:57:49,420
I imagine you cannot
wait to do that though.

1155
00:57:49,470 --> 00:57:49,980
Yes.

1156
00:57:50,350 --> 00:57:50,670
Okay.

1157
00:57:51,410 --> 00:57:57,470
And then finally, maybe not today, and
maybe not tomorrow, because your partner,

1158
00:57:57,790 --> 00:57:59,849
Jenny, you said her name is, is out.

1159
00:58:00,410 --> 00:58:01,010
Traveling.

1160
00:58:01,360 --> 00:58:06,000
But how many times in a typical
week do you say, go ask your mother?

1161
00:58:08,040 --> 00:58:09,420
I'd say like 10 times a day.

1162
00:58:10,260 --> 00:58:11,500
10 times a day!

1163
00:58:12,159 --> 00:58:15,890
Linus Ekenstam: Alright, so we're like 10
times a day, easily, because again, it's

1164
00:58:15,890 --> 00:58:20,550
the whole kind of like, who decides what,
like where are the boundaries, like Yeah.

1165
00:58:20,590 --> 00:58:24,575
They try with me, and then
like Go ask your mother.

1166
00:58:24,605 --> 00:58:26,595
It's like, this is her turf.

1167
00:58:26,645 --> 00:58:27,805
Like, don't try with me.

1168
00:58:28,535 --> 00:58:29,325
You know, you're going to get a note.

1169
00:58:29,335 --> 00:58:30,325
You're going to get a note.

1170
00:58:31,705 --> 00:58:32,145
Adam Fishman: Awesome.

1171
00:58:32,145 --> 00:58:36,674
Well, on that note, Linus, thank you so
much for joining me today on Startup Dad.

1172
00:58:36,674 --> 00:58:38,334
This was a really fun conversation.

1173
00:58:38,630 --> 00:58:44,070
And I appreciate you opening up, talking
about fertility, talking about AI, talking

1174
00:58:44,080 --> 00:58:48,990
about time and relativity, fantastic
conversation, really appreciate it.

1175
00:58:49,610 --> 00:58:50,520
Linus Ekenstam: Thank you very much,

1176
00:58:50,599 --> 00:58:51,230
Adam Fishman: it was very fun.

1177
00:58:52,400 --> 00:58:55,760
Thank you for listening to today's
conversation with Linus Eckenstam.

1178
00:58:56,910 --> 00:59:00,230
If you enjoyed the show, please
subscribe, share, and leave me

1179
00:59:00,230 --> 00:59:02,310
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1180
00:59:02,940 --> 00:59:05,010
It'll help other people find this podcast.

1181
00:59:05,710 --> 00:59:10,250
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with editing support from Tommy Heron.

1182
00:59:10,780 --> 00:59:14,939
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10, 000 subscribers and stay up to

1183
00:59:14,939 --> 00:59:19,759
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1184
00:59:19,760 --> 00:59:22,980
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1185
00:59:23,030 --> 00:59:23,490
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1186
00:59:26,550 --> 00:59:26,580
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1187
00:59:28,100 --> 00:59:30,280
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