Tame Impala

00:00:08 Speaker 1: Pushkin. In the thirteen years since Kevin Parker first posted Tam and Paula music on MySpace, he's gone from being a member of Perth, Australia's psych rock scene to a huge Coachella headlining act in the States. In the process, he's developed the best of both worlds, the respect of all your favorite artists and legions of fans who'd dissect every lyric and sound on his albums. Like most of his past releases, Kevin did everything on the newest Tam and Paula album, The Slow Rush, himself, all the singing, playing, production, mixing. Everything, he tells Krubin is how he's most comfortable creating alone. But in the five years between his last record and the new one, he was busy collaborating with The Weekend, Travis Scott, Kanye West, Sizza and a bunch of other people have talked about wanting to work with him too, everyone from Dua Lipa at Christina and the Queens. Kevin connected recently with Rick on Zoom. It's been sheltern in place back in Australia ever since the coronavirus interrupted his tour after two sold out nights at the Forum in La. He talks with Rick about how being perceived as a band started eating away at him early, and also asked Rick about making two albums. He loves Californication in Jesus. This is broken record liner notes for the digital age. I'm justin Richmond. Here's Rick Rubin and Kevin Parker, and you might hear Rooster's crown in the background every once in a while. Unfortunately, sheltern in place sometimes means being surrounded by wild chickens. What was your introduction to music? What's what are your first memories of listening to music as a kid. My dad was kind of a musician by hobby, like like, loved music, loved playing music and playing like a cover band, just playing kind of sixties you know, Beach Boys, Badels, roll Stones, covers, and so he would always have a sort of guitars and stuff lying on the house and in the end in the garage. I guess of your dad's music was the first Your first memory of was of him playing music or of the music he listened to the music listened to it because he would he would always have music playing in the car. In fact, it's weird because there's this one song that that I have this memory of always asking him to play, and I remember there was every time I heard it was like, you know, I must have been about four years old I was. I was like, damn, play this song. And to this day, I don't know what that song is. It's heartbreak. Does your dad still remember? He passed away about ten years ago, so um so yeah, I don't think. I don't think he would have remembered anyway, though, but it's yeah, I have a feeling it's The Shadows, a song by the Shadows. Do you feel like if you randomly came across the song in life, it would a light bulb would go off and you would say it is It would probably trigger some sort of weird episode, you know, like wherever I was, and probably you know, just sort of stop breakdown in some way. But at the same time, I think it might be a song that I know at the moment by the Shadows, because I have a feeling it was instrumental, and I know that it was really like touching and melancholic, which which kind of points directly to the Shadows. And then what was your first music that was yours? Probably Navana? You know, like I just I would have been about eleven years old. My friend played me vinyl because we were like the first kids in our class to get into music. You know, like I go on his house every Tuesday or something like that after school and we'd kind of like discover rock music. You know. It was kind of it was just like epiphany, absolute revolution of life, like just like jumping around the room that you know that that that whole that whole kind of discover that whole story, which is you know, probably everyone but yeah, I mean Nirvana. And then it was kind of just a cascade of Smashing Pumpkins, silver Chair, anything with distorted guitar, anything with drop D tuning. But there was always the kind of part of that music that was kind of, um it wasn't just like angsty. It was kind of discovered the emotion in it, like like like Smashing Pumpkins. You know, Smashing Pumpkins has that that real, that real kind of sensitivity to even though it's just like blaring wall of sound, you know what I mean. Do you remember when you first started started experimenting with making music. Uh, yeah, Well my brother played drums, so yeah, he's two years older. Um, so he had a drum kit which I just thought was incredible. I like, sort of, you know, just watch him, you know, and it was kind of like wow, so obviously I immediately wanted to copy him. Hea. We had this tape deck in the music room, which was kind of just a room in the house. We had a tape deck that had a microphone input. You remember those like kind of like cassette cassette decks, and for some reason they'd just be like a chorion's jack in the corner just says a microphone, you know, And so we plugged a microphone into it and just recorded ourselves playing drums, just to sort of sealed it sound like. And then we had this little keyboard sitting in the room as a little cassio kind of thing. And one day I was kind of just playing along to myself playing drums with the cat like I didn't even know how to plays, just hitting random notes, you know. It sound like a nursery rhyme probably, And then I noticed in the room there was a second cassette deck with the same thing. So I stuck a mic into that, stuck the mic in, did that and recorded myself just hitting these keys over the top of me. You're playing drums and listened back to that tape and it was me playing keyboard to myself. It was me playing two things at once. It blew my still would have been about eleven amazing. Yeah, yeah, who did the idea of starting to do it with the ideas of making it for other people to hear? Start? Well, I mean, like like every young teenage musician, I had like grandiose dreams of being a rock star, especially because my favorite band was Silver Chair and they were only like fifteen sixteen and I was sort of like twelve thirteen by that point. I was like, I was like, they're fucking like fifteen sixteen. That means I've got like two three years, Like two three years I can I can still get to where they're they are. I can be them. You know, you think it had to do with how young they were, because because they were such little kids. Yeah, for whatever reason, whether it was because I do you know, because they were like young Australian boys, or because like they're kind of they would have been a similar headspace, you know that they kind of like their approach to it would have been in the same realm as mine. How did you decide to end up being a solo artist as opposed to being in a band. Uh well, I always I played in bands the whole time in high school, Like I was obsessed with the idea of playing in bands, but I also had the making music thing at home since before I accidentally multi tracked myself. That time I was playing at a band. It was kind of this um this music school that I went to where like they teach you an instrument, mom's drums, and then every Saturday morning they get all the kids from different instrument like tuitions and put them and put them in bands. So they put me in the in a band. So I was in a band that age eleven, which I fucking loved. I could not wait. I could not wait for Saturday morning to come around because it was like, you know, playing music with other kids was just this another mind blowing thing. But I also and then so I sort of got better at that, and I slowly got better at recording music by myself, and the two worlds never really met, Like even even at the start of like Tamian Parlor, when I was sort of like twenty one twenty two, we were playing songs that I'd written for us to play live and they were different to the ones I was recording at home, we even had on MySpace. It took a while for the two worlds to kind of converge, if that makes sense, because I just didn't know how. I didn't know how to translate what I was kind of doing at home and like expressing on my own because that music was like super kind of I guess, I guess sensitive is the word, and kind of nuanced and genre less. But the music I was making in bands, I mean, like that was music was more kind of like what we had listened to was a group like kind of more angsty, like heavy kind of stuff. At the time that you started making music with the idea of putting it up on my space, what would you say the influences were what we listening to and what might might have been who would you hope to get to play with? For example, that was around the time that I was super kind of obsessed with sixties music, so it was kind of it was all like the doors Jefferson Airplane. I didn't have a lot of kind of like modern day idols um just because of like that was a kind of lifestyle I was leading, and like I was living in a sharehouse with other people were kind of just we were just permanently listened to seventies psycher rock constantly. Um, I mean there was this band called dungyin that I was super into it, still am to this day. That's that's still just gives me goosebumps, you know. Yeah, it's and like it's funny because I listened now and I can hear my first album all over it. You know, It's something I didn't really notice at the time consciously, but just like the Yeah, and then how do you describe how the second album differed from the first. It was it was a hundred times more indulgent, which is what I wanted, you know, because I'd had this kind of like surge of confidence that I didn't have previously prior, you know, like when I made in a Speakers is kind of like shy stoner kind of you know. And uh, and you know, like we had a lot of I had a lot of success the first album. We went on tours and all this kind of stuff, and so I suddenly realized that, um, it kind of validated my approach and my kind of like what I wanted to do. So I can't say Lonerism was kind of like just blowing that wide open. How did the third album when that came, how was that different? Well, I mean the second album, I still didn't fully know what I was doing. I kind of like I got Ableton and I and instead of just sort of it being the corner of my bedroom in a share house that I made it for the second album, I was like, fuck it all right, I'm gonna dedicate to this, you know, So I set up a studio in a in a in a room in my sharehouse. It got it's got, it's my studio, got its own full room for once, um, and I would just make hours and hours of I just I like was using SyncE Organs fucking anything, you know. I was kind of it was kind of just that, you know, that kind of typical moment for a solo artists where they where they make their you know, their self indulgent opens. It really was that. Looking back, like at the time, I was like, fuck yeah, you know, it seemed like the first two albums, the arrangement seemed more complicated. Yeah, that's probably true because in the third one, I was kind of like influenced by a lot of kind of R and B and electronic music. So I was kind of embracing the way that that music was made more, do you know what I mean, sort of like finding a loop and kind of like almost kind of making making a beat like a you know, in like the hip hop sense, like sort of just having like a four bar loop and just sort of making the structure out of that, rather than going like, Okay, we're going to be going with this bit for a while, We're gonna jam on these chords and then like do a huge drum fill and go into these chords and then let this thing for five and a half bars. Do you remember what the music that inspired that switch? Like what would have been the things you were listening to that maybe you want to make more program based music. I mean, like it was always music that I was into, but just music that I'd kind of shied away from making because I figured, like my world was weird, expansive side rock, and like if I tried to do more clean, focused pop kind of stuff, I assumed it wouldn't work, you know. So Currence was the album where I'd kind of like just went, I'm going to try it, you know, try to make kind of like disco R and B kind of like, really the beats are like super strong and heavy. Would you would you consider the first two as a pair and the last two was pair? No, I've never thought of it that way. Um, all right, maybe some people would, I guess with the third one. Third one where I was is the one where I was kind of like I knew that there would be fans of the first two that turn their noses up, Like I was ready for that, do you know what I mean? I was kind of like I decided, you know, kind of definitively that that. Um, but I wanted to change my sound, and I knew that some people wouldn't like it, you know what I mean. That was kind of that part of my career where where I kind of like sucked it up. Do you know what? It's a great thing to do, Earthly on If you'd made four albums that sounded in the same vain and then the fifth one was different, it would have probably alienated more people. Yeah, you know, It's like you did it early enough in the trajectory where you let people let the audience know that, hey, we're gonna go on different rides and I want you to come with me and I think people are more forgiving of the style changes if you prepare them for it. Yeah, yeah, if if if change is one of the constants. Yeah, It's like if if the Ramans fifth album, All of a Sudden was a you know, program dance record, I don't think anybody would have been excited about that, right. And also something I realized was that, I mean, what's funny is that the first album and the second one I like as well, Taiman Palla was always kind of perceived as a band, and I was kind of cool with that because like, because it's it sounded like a band, people will you know, it's it sounds like a bunch of guys jamming, you know, like I love this, I love I love these guys, you know, I love the way they jam out. Um. But I kind of like it. Kind of it was eating away at me that it wasn't like the truth. Um. And also because and also like I wanted I wanted people to know that it was kind of more of a solo recording project because I realized that solo artists get away with completely changing their sound a lot more than bands, do, you know, like with someone like like Beck, you know, Beck can just take a complete left turn with one album, you know um, and everyone'll be like, oh, well, that's that's back, that's what he does. But like with a band, it's kind of like I think, I feel like a few things have to happen, like everyone in the band or everyone in the group rather has to like decide on it together, which is more difficult. You know. They all have to be sort of like moving in the same action, whereas people, you know, people, especially as time goes by, people like Drift Apart. When he decided to give the project a name originally as opposed to your name was it was it the opposite of what you just said was the original impression was for it to seem like a band. Yes. Absolutely. In fact, the record label when they signed us didn't even know we were it didn't it didn't know it was me that was playing drums and guitars and bass and multi jacking like they we I outright lied to them when we met up, Like the contract that we signed was for three of us. Um. I think yeah, because I just I didn't want to say it was just me, you know, um for a number of reasons, Like number one, I was kind of shy. I just you know, it's really weird because looking back, it's kind of like, why the fuck didn't you just like own it? You know. Um. But also, like the kind of music scene I was in was a very communal scene, you know, like we lived to jam and lived to like play gigs. So like for the thing that finally came out of that scene to be just one like a solo project, think it felt kind of wrong, like they'd be it would be the kind of this like scene that we kind of had going in Perth was kind of like a bunch of us, but there weren't that many people. But that what we made tons of bands out of it, you know, so they'd be like ten people and they'd be like six bands with like different combinations of those people, just just because you know, like, hey, why the fuck, why the funk not when we come back, we'll have more with Kevin Parker. We're back with Rick and Kevin Parker. It feels like it was like four or five years between the third album and the new album M and that before yous you didn't you didn't write songs or make any music. I did. I absolutely did, but I just didn't see it as taim and Parlor, And it kind of seemed more like a drag to think of a song as Tame and Parlor, because it like, every time I thought of a song, if I imagine it as taim and Parlor, it came loaded, like the idea was loaded with all these kind of things that came with it, Like it just seemed so much more magical and wondrous to think of it as a song I could collaborate with a different artist on, you know, like me making taim and Parlor music now, h and always it's like it's a deep dark hole that I have to go into and you know, like come out like it drains, it drains every bit of me, you know. And I realized that the end, like working at the end of the third album, you know, I've I've I always dreamt of making a tam and Parlor album where I didn't feel completely spent at the end of it, like completely drained and completely like depressed even And I kind of realized after a while that that was inevitable and that was the only way it could be. In the course of those four years before you started working on a new album, did it reveal itself that it was time or was it the decision you made, or did one particular track come up where you felt like, oh, this could be the beginning of something. It was a combination of the first two, you know what it was. It was more like it was the process of it, because I'd fallen in love so much with this idea of music being a collaborative thing, you know, like the energy in a room when you're working with other people, like you know, I started working with Travis Scott someone like that, Like the energy in the room is just so electric, you know, and I was like, hey, I can I can have that energy on my own too. I just have to. I just have to embrace it, you know. And so then I started so like the way I started working on the album again was by like pretending I was in a recording session with a bunch of other people, you know, staying up late, just getting getting drunk and stoned, you know, and kind of just having a party by myself. I guess, just embracing that kind of way that when you're on the in the depths of working by yourself, you feel like many people. Do you feel like you're channeling particular people or is it more of a general feeling of this is not me, it's someone else, or do you envision or Travis is here with me? What would you do? Both? But in different times it's like me imagining I'm someone else is kind of more when I get stuck, you know, it's like what would or would Forrell Williams do in this moment? You know. Actually it's funny. One of the one of the things that got me inspired I was what I started for some reason. I started watching um there's this like six part YouTube video series on the making of Justified, and it's it's it almost seems like leaked footage because it's just fly on the wall. Someone's just holding a video camera the entire time. It starts from like them in the in Justin Timberlake's private jet and they're flying to the recording session. But most of it is just someone sitting on the couch like filming Farrell and Justin kind of messing around, like having a laugh and like making the song. So you can see Farrell kind of piece together um uh Senorita. So like there's like, you know, like a twenty minute patch of him just sort of playing drums just so good. That's what it's that's not how it starts out, but he slowly, it seems slowly converge on the beat that ends up being signorated, you know, so he's like, Okay, gets up, He's like, hey, leap that back. And I don't know why, but for some reason, that kind of just made me think about how I make music, and it kind of reminded me. In fact, one of the songs on the album kind of like came out sounding similar to something I would imagine Forrell and Justin would be doing for Justin Team, which is the song breath Deeper. The first the beat from the start of Breath Deeper was kind of me pretending us, no, it's Farrell and Justin making Justified. Let me ask a specific question. You often have a little intro signature intros that are not necessarily part of the track, you know, like the drums. It will either be a different beat or it sounds really different and it sets up the song, but it doesn't feel like it's part of the song. Did those happen after? I guess that's just me trying to um just create those kind of moments of like jelting into the track, you know, like in the way that you here and hip hop. The way that like like just cutting to something completely different is because sometimes one of the most satisfying things and so sometimes it give me an accident, like accidentally accidentally played the track wrong. For example, the start of backwards feels like we're going to go backwards on Learnerism was me I had it on loop. I had one beat on loop that's kind of like you know, the last beat of the chorus or something, you know, I had any and I was like, oh shit, you know, that's one of like I don't have many happy accidents in this year, I've most Not true, I do, I have a lot, but um, that's one just one of those happy accidents, you know. So I guess I'm just always look out for things that can consider like take you one way and then quickly back the other, you know what I mean. And so more more often, some accident might happen somewhere during the course of making the song, and you might think, oh, maybe I can use this piece at some point and then you and then you figure out how to use it, or or might you have a finished song and think, okay, now I want to I need an intro and I don't want it to be like the rest. I mean, those kind of things, those kind of moments, those accidents, they're almost it's almost something that I rely on happening, you know, And because like you know, I i'd like to recordpreate late at night. Sometimes I like to get kind of just spaced out, and you know, in those times, I'm not very musically proficient. You know, but because because you're not consciously aware of everything you're doing, it frees you from that the boring straight down the line cognitive thinking that you do. You know. It's that kind of so it's almost like your subconscious is involved in the rating process. Yeah, exactly exactly. I mean I try I try to bring that as much as possible because I'm someone that naturally I'll try and process everything. You know, I'm probably more um uh naturally an overthinker than i'd like to be, you know, So like smoking weed in a recording session, that's kind of just something I do to stop myself from overthinking, because that's that's that's that's a time when I'm just like, oh, yeah, that's cool, let's go with that, you know, like, oh that's sick. Don't think about it, don't think about it, you know, not that not the nothing you need to be done to to like to get into that kind of space, but all those kind of times. It's it's also like like being being in a heightened emotional state, like being super feeling super emotional in whichever direction is also something that brings out that where you're not you're not thinking about whether something's good, it's just it just it hits a spot of you because you're feeling depressed, or because you're feeling elated, or or you know, particularly joyous or particularly sad. Those are times when you don't overthink things too. Are all of these things we're talking about all instrumental at this point where we're at in talking about making music and those feelings that you get excited about. Are we only talking about instrumental at this point? Uh? No, it can happen all at once. I mean, in fact, like most of the ideas I have for songs, our ideas I've had not even in the studio. And that's kind of the other thing about catching you off guard is that songs come to me when I'm not thinking about writing a song. You know, in fact, if I consciously decide that I want to write a song I can you can pretty much guarantee it's going to be the shitter song I've ever written. I've often tried to research, like when it is that I that an idea will come to me, and like the only thing I can um that I've noticed, like a pattern or whatever, is like going from like a loud place or like a place where there's a lot of energy into us into it, just like like walking outside, stepping outside from a room of people, suddenly going from like lots of shit going on, thinking about it and then suddenly nothing, and then my brain has to find some way of feeling that void. Suddenly a beard. I think that's something that's as great and the fact that you notice that is really it's it's a beautiful note. And I'm really helpful for you that I'm so happy that you realized it. Sure, yeah, yeah, well, I mean, like I think I'm a science person, so I'm always like, how how does that happen? Not not so that I can fabricate it or not that I can like force it to happen, but just just because I want to know you. I'm just curious, like what makes me think of ten songs in three days sometimes and then nothing for five months. Okay, So now let's say you just left the loud room where there's a lot going on. You stepped outside and it's silent. What might one of these seed ideas look like? What would be the first thing that would come. It's like flicking on the radio, melody, lyric, both both all all at the same time. Yeah, it's like it's like it's it's like flicking on the radio, and it's like fee on the radio because it's not like it's not like starting the song at the Start's like a song starts, you know, zero point zero zero song starts. It's like coming in halfway through a chorus. You know, it's a vibe. You pick up on the vibe. Yeah, and then and then I just do my best. I do my best to get to a place where I can record it before I forget it. Um. So I've obviously got like a hundred voice members on my phone. It'll be like a two bar or one bar um bit of music. So the drums, all the drums. With the drums, I mean, let's let's try and find one um. But but it's it's rare that I'll listen back to it and decide that it was good enough. Just I don't know why. It's like someone singing on it hear is like, hey man, what about this? It goes no, no, no, no no, just and sometimes at the end of my note, I like feel compelled to go record this, Just fucking record it. This wouldn't sound like much you listen to it, but record it. Um play play one. I'd love to hear it. This is very candid, you know, two doul. So that's obviously like the kind of the rhythm section that's a vocal melody. Um. Yeah. So I guess like often I'll go back and just like force myself to a call one of us. I haven't recorded that one. That's the first time I've listened to it. I'd say about ninety nine things out nine out of ten ideas that I have I'll forget because I'll be meaning to like record up my voice memo, but someone will be next. I'll be like talking to someone and then we'll get into a car with the car radio playing, and it'll absolutely just wipe. It'll wipe whatever I'm thinking. You know, I'm to catch him fast, absolutely and and and and easily forgotten too. And I always feel bad about going, just feel a bit kind of ego about ego maniac about going, Like, hey, guys, coone, just shut up, come one, shut up. Plays I've got an idea, you know, like I could never do that in a room full of pain or with anyone I'm with. Here's the suggestion, go to the bathroom. Yeah that's true. Hey there's music playing in bathroom sometimes, but yeah, but yeah, no, you know, Neil Young has rule that regardless of what is going on in the moment where he is or what he's doing, if a song comes to him, everything stops. Yeah, I love it, And he gets that idea down before that goes away because he knows it's fleeting and we don't have control of them coming. Like you said, sometimes you'll get you might get a bunch in a couple of days, but then you might go months without without getting another one. So they really are valuable. And they're also valuable because they're all different and you never know which one is the great one, you know, Yeah, maybe one of the best ones evaporated. Yeah that's true. I I family believe I you know, I genuinely believe that I could have songs that are my best songs or whatever. You know, Like, there's definitely things that have disappeared that that would have been great. But that's just life, you know. Okay, Well, I'm going to give you permission to always either ask people to be quiet or to wow, or to invite you to leave the where you are to go capture these ideas because there you're doing a service. You're doing a service to the world. Wow, that's that's actually really powerful to hear from you, Rick Rubin. Can I get a little soundbot from you saying like, hey, everyone, can you get the fuck out Kevin? He's to record something just so I can play it to them, Like it's like, hey, I will make one for you and send it amazing. That would be amazing, Just like Hey, guys, Rick Rubin here, I love When we come back, we'll have more with Kevin Parker. We're back with Rick and Kevin Parker from Team and Parlor. Do you listen to music for a final While I don't and I want to more, I have less and less since I started making music, since music became the thing that I do, I've been more and more preoccupied with making it, so I haven't given myself time to listen to it. Like, it's extremely difficult for me to justify putting on an album to listen to over potentially thinking of a song, because for me, like if I put on an album, that's an hour that I won't have an idea, you know, I'm that obsessed with coming up with a new with like finding a new song, making a new song, because making a new song makes me feel like nothing else in the world. There's no other feeling in the world that I get from um the feeling of starting a new song that I think has great potential, sadly more so than than listening to something that that is equally that is that is great, you know. But but I do want to I do want to force myself to listen to me more music. I heard uh Um Todd of the Creator and his Nordwire interview the other day. He said, like he wakes up every morning listens to two hours of music hasn't heard before. I was like, Fuck, that's amazing. I want to do that, you know, just like, yeah, have you ever started a song with another song in mine? Um, like a song that already exists, like a just like a song, like a song that you a song from the sixties. Anything, Wow, this is my inspiration. What would I do that that would be in this vein? Not I'm not suggesting copying it, but I'm saying being inspired by it to want to make something that makes you feel like that feels uh, not that I know of, but um, something that I do sometimes kind of subconsciously. There might be a song um playing in the background, like you know, and like on the radio or something, and then I'll and then like they'll get switched off, and then I'll think of something that goes on from there, like like I'll have the rhythm and maybe the key in my mind is subconsciously I'll just start singing a song that goes on from that as though as though the song kept going but it changed. There's an example of that which I don't know if I feel like I'm gonna get busted. M Well, you know what fuck it it was? It was twenty and twelve. No, there's a song. Well, my song feels like we only go backwards. Um. I must have been listening to this, why I've traced it back. I think I was listening to this song by Beach House earlier that morning. It's called Walk in the Park, I think, And it's funny because it's the same tempo and the same key and possibly even similar chords. But it was for me at the time, it was kind of it was too much of a coincidence. And I'm pretty sure it was around that time that song came out, So I'm pretty sure that I'd done that with that song, kind of like that song had stopped and then i'd kind of just like my brain had continued it on, same tempo and same key, you know, maybe even like there's probably even like a little motif in there that's the same kind of combo of two or three notes, do you know what I mean. So that's something that happens. Yeah, I don't think there's anything. I think all great artists are heavily inspired by other artists, and it's only good. Yeah. What's funny is that when I say that now it doesn't seem that bad, But but I think back then, I used to be so precious about like the sacredity of melodies and the sacredness of artistry being being wholly wholly as like whe Dadada inspired and not influenced by anything. So like back then I would have thought that was terrible but now now that I said out loud, it's kind of that's just one of the ways that like great song can come about. And then especially like I discovered or not discovered, but like I appreciated hip hop more and like sampling and stuff like that. So you know, that's that's another whole realm of taking music that already exists. Yeah, I think creative use of a sample to create something new is it's just a new form. It's like it's a great new form of creativity, a beautiful way to express yourself, to flip something for a new use like recycling. It's really cool. Yeah, it's also a completely other other category of skill that can be mastered. You know. I guess that's something I didn't realize early on when I started, you know, when I was like making to socker rocking style. Not that I have do you that I've sampled myself, but like I used to think, like someone's done that already, like how can you take credit for that? But finding that in itself and realizing how it can be reimagined and like represented is extremely difficult, especially when there's an there's a universe of music out there, Like finding the right thing to use and how to use it is something that I that I admire extremely Now, yeah, that's it can happen even I mean even with cover songs. A different artist could take the same song with someone else did and just through their interpretation of it completely changed the meaning of the song. You know. It's there's so much that can happen in the personalization process of music fully fully, like that that Mad World song. You know, it's it's a cover. It's really that really a somber song, yes, and it's like, how could this song I've ever been anything else other than this? You know. Yes, the cover version is spectacular, and if you listen back to the original, it's cool, but the cover is is it? Yeah? Exactly? Great example, the first BG's hit was a song that they wrote for um Otis Redding. Do you know the story? No, No, I want to know. I love somebody? Oh okay, I love somebody. Yeah. They wrote that for Otis Redding and then Otis Redding died and never got to record it, and then they recorded it themselves and put it out. But when you hear that song, you don't think of Otis Redding and you think of the BGS. It's like it's a it's a classic BGS song. Yeah, a great example of a song with in their mind that was for someone else. Yeah. Yeah, I like hearing stars like that. It's kind of comforting for me to know that there's that kind of uncertainty that honest have as well with with where a song should end up. Anything else you want to talk about, Uh, well, you know, I'm tending to ask you about everything you've done, but I don't know that that's probably something done a million times. What was what was recording Californication? Like, just because that was one of the albums that like was big for me, that was kind of like my first year of high school album that I was kind of obsessed with. Well did typically the way it worked with the Chili Peppers as we would they would write songs on their own for a long period of time, and then we would get together in pre production and they would play me songs in various stages of completion, and we would talk about them and discuss strengths and weaknesses and how they could maybe be better and where they had too many parts or whether they had maybe mad enough parts. Yeah, and then we would usually by the time of that album really work up the songs as a live band in the in the rehearsal room, so that when we went into the studio it was purely just getting the performance, like everything was worked out completely just with the players. Maybe not all of the words, but I think back then maybe many of the words were already written where they could perform it live and and the goal of that really was to to not confuse the writing process with the performance process, so that when we were in the studio we really knew what we were doing. And still we might play the same song a hundred times to get it to just come together in that in that way where it feels like it's the perfect version, but it's also got mistakes in it, and it's you know, it's natural. It's just it sounds like a band on a really good night. It doesn't sound like machines playing it. It sounds like the best night that they played that on tour. This was we happened to catch the best one, so to play things over and over with that idea, and someone happened very quickly, someone take a long time, and then and then all of the overdubs would happen after that, and we would make decisions of things to try, and we would usually record many, many, many more songs than whatever was on the album. Pretty much always the case. Wow, Like I would say for every album we made, there were at least twice as many songs as the songs that were on the album, and what happened to them eventually come out and based on kind of some have some happen. Wow, that's that's crazy because like for me, that's that's such a wild things to think because for me, like I just make the songs that I need for an album, Like a song will will not get pasted well, it won't get passed anywhere close to halfway finished unless I know it's going to be on the album. So I rarely ever have B sides of any kind. So the idea of to think of like a completely a complete other, like a parallel universe album that never existed. That's funny because it's sung on Californication. But um, but I guess I guess that's I guess that's how most artists. Have you noticed? Have you noticed how a song when you first get excited about it and you think, oh, you know, I've worked on these songs, but this this new one is my favorite of the batch so far, and then as you work further it maybe doesn't become your favorite of the batch. And then another song that you think, well, this is pretty good, but maybe not my favorite song, that as you continue working on it, it becomes your favorite song. Have you ever had that experience or now? Well, my thing is like for a song to make an album, it has to at some point have been my favorite song ever, Like I have to have had a moment with that song, Like it has to like for at least a day, has to have been just like my favorite thing I've ever done. You know, it can never be like just for some reason, like I won't bother going through with a song unless at some point I've thought that it's like potential is limitless, or it could be the greatest thing I've done, and like greatest, not just greatest, like oh it could you know, be the most critically claimed or whatever, but just just just the greatest, you know, Like I guess for me, the thing is like from starting a song and having all these and just thinking it's and having a moment with a um feeling great about it. It's kind of just like a race to the finish line to get the song finished and have me still feel the same way about it, or just for me to still love it. You know, you always finish one song before moving on to the next song. No, No, I mean like hours for the hours up until mastering. I'm still writing lyrics for a song for it, like up until you know, a few hours before it's done, of like a year of working on it. I'm sort of like writing lyrics, writing and recording lyrics and editing drums and you know, so I do everything at once because I'm my attention spand is too short to well my kind of like my work, I have horrible work ethics. So for me to sit down and do like one task until it's done, it's extremely rare. You know. I'll just I'll sort of like be recording a baseline for it and get sort of like halfway down there, Oh I canna do something else now, you know, I'm gonna Because that's the luxury of doing it by myself. I can do it without it derailing the session, you know, so I can kind of just like, oh, you know, now now I want to think of some lyrics, or now I want to do a bit of mixing. You know, I want to edit some drums, you know, I'll do everything at once and then which which can which can sort of like create this sort of like complete mess of and and can make me feel can can make you lost in the progress of a song. So sometimes I'm like, oh, I don't know where I am with this, So I don't know, I don't know if it's almost finished or if it's nowhere near there, you know. So I'm kind of just like in lost in this, in this, uh in the in the woods? Do you ever go too far and have to backtrack? Yes, I mean I hate back I hate backtracking, but but yes, um, it's interesting. I was something I wanted to I've always wanted to know, and like maybe maybe you're not able to say because if you know, it's like uh secret or whatever. But um, with Jesus, you know, because there's the myth that he there's a story that he came to you sort of a couple of weeks before it was done, and you kind of went like, let's get rid of that, Let's get rid of that and like strip it down, which to me, like that story is like is this holy grail of discipline? Like executive discipline to say like we don't need any of this, you know, because for me, that's it's it's it's it's extremely hard if I recorded apart for a song, it's extremely difficult for me to say he doesn't need to be in the song, because like my brain's like, oh no, there's a there's there'll be a place for it, you know. So my songs can end up being so extremely dense and I'm just sort of finding a way to sort of like fit in there, in there. But to me, like the greatest strength and the greatest ability in production is to say all of this stuff here doesn't doesn't need to be you know. So I I real wonder to know how that like happened. Well, um, you have to be ruthless in the edit, and uh rot I like that word ruthless. It's the right word because you have to be comfortable taking your favorite part out of a song if it doesn't if it doesn't serve the song. The most important thing is that what what's presented is the best that it could possibly be, and it's not a collection of things in that one song. It's what makes this song the best it could possibly be, And anything that doesn't need to be there, needs to go. And I would say just the opposite in terms of I never feel bad about taking stuff out. But then again, you know, from the beginning, there's always been my uh, my instinct is to have the least amount of stuff to get the idea across with the least amount of stuff. Doesn't mean that that's um. I'll say that that's an organizing principle for the way I work. But then sometimes we'll decide, oh, let's put a bunch of stuff on this, and that's the way we like it. It's fine. So it's not a uh, it's not a rule to live by, but it's a it's a way of thinking. And and there's a reason for it, which is when you clear as much space as possible, the things that are left, you really hear them, you really feel their personality. There's less um, there's less jocking for for your attention. So each thing gets to live in its own space. And that's space is what makes things sound so beautiful. It's the it's really you know, the old the old adage, the quiet between the notes. Yeah, exactly, Matt, And that's that's that's that's ruly remarkable. Because as for me, it's like it would be torture to do something like that, you know, like the idea for me, because I'm listening to you go, I'm like, oh fuck, you know, because my brain it's to the place my brain goes to is like, how can a song be the best that it can be without your favorite bit in the song? Well, that the favorite bit might end up being a different song. Yeah, true, true, it's like what serves the same. It's like it's It's one of the things that I learned early on we're working with bands who are really great players, is that most great players want to show that they're great players, and there is there isn't much room for that in recording. In recording, it really is what needs to be there to best serve the song. It's not in certain unless, of course, it's you know, a guitar hero album and it's really about showing the dexterity of the player. But if it's about if it's about the songs, it's never about the coolest part. It's about how the parts interact to make the greatest fall. And sometimes the thing that's really cool ends up being a distraction. Yeah, Yeah, it's true. Yeah, I mean, I guess that's that's kind of like the kind of philosophy that I'm like developing in myself at the moment, you know, because like so much of my music has been this kind of like this like layered psych rock kind of symphonies. You know, Like with Loan Reasm was kind of like the pinnacle of that, right because it was so indulgent. It was like, Oh, I'm gonna this sent melody, I'm gonna do this fucking guitar line, Oh, this Basseline's going to come in here, you know, and it was like packed in the packed in. So it's like really sonically, it's really interesting album listen to because nothing really jumps out at you except all these bits, which is it's simultaneously what's wrong with it but also what's kind of like charming and beautiful about it. But you know, like that kind of discipline that you're talking about is something that I'm that that I that I see is as u kind of one of the greatest wisdoms to have, you know, being able to sense what what what what a piece of music needs and what it doesn't needs doesn't need, and and the idea that maybe for a particular project, you want it to be super dense and yeah, you know, stepping on itself and that's the that's that's what makes that project that project. That's fine. So it's not it's not like everything has to be that way. It's more of a no, you're on, it's in the bag of tricks. It's in the bag of tricks, right, gotcha? Yeah, Yeah, no, for sure. I guess I just feel like, yeah, that that that's kind of like a because it's a new and wonderful thing for me. It's kind of it's one of those things I'm curious about. You know. Well, the next time that we're both in the same place and our uh and the world is the world where we're allowed to be in the same room, then let's let's get together and listen to music together and I bet all be fun. Fuck yeah, man, that sounds good. I love that. Thanks to Kevin Parker for jumping on zoom to talk with Rick about his new album. Be sure to check out The Slow Rush, along with our other favorite Tamo Paula songs, on a playlist we created at Broken record podcast dot com. You should also know we'll be taking a little break over the next two weeks, but we'll be back May nineteenth with new episodes for you. In the meantime, stay in touch with us on Instagram at the Broken Record Pod, Shoot us a message if there's an interview you really want to hear us do and dive into old episodes of the podcast you might have missed on whatever podcast app you use, or on our YouTube channel at YouTube dot com slash Broken Record Podcast. Broken Record is produced to help from Jason Gambrel, me La Belle, Leah Rose, and Martin Gonzalez for Pushkin Industries. A theme musics by Kenny Beats. I'm justin Richmond. Thanks for listening. Four