Spellling

00:00:15
Speaker 1: Pushkin. I'm excited today to share a conversation with my friend Tia Cabral, also known as Spelling. I've known Spelling since before she started making music a bit over a decade ago, and I'll never forget when I first heard some of the songs that became her sophomore album, The Turning Wheel. It blew me away. For this friend, who I've known for so long, to just be casually demoing these beautiful songs with such a gorgeous voice, that was astonished. Mind you, that album got a rare perfect ten rating from Anthony Fantano. Her latest album, Portrait of My Heart, sees Spelling taking yet another leap, pushing her avant garde pop and even rock sensibilities to another level, adding new dimensions to the mysticism and drama imbued in her music. Today, Spelling opens up about her journey from teaching to touring, what it means to build a sonic universe where every detail is intentional, the early days of her musical journey, when she was just getting started. This is broken record, real musicians, real conversations. Here's my conversation with Spelling. We should talk about the new album because there's a lot more guitar, and then as the album progresses there gets to be even more guitar. It's really cool, but it was, but it was shocking. But maybe before we get to talking about the guitar, just what was the genesis of your new album?

00:01:44
Speaker 2: The genesis, I mean, it's the same kind of approach I always take, which is I'm just channeling my mood. And I felt as though what I noticed after putting out The Turning Wheel and touring a little bit and just kind of that felt like this turning point in my life where this is what I'm doing with my life kind of a thing, whereas before it was I was just you're meaning a lot, And I didn't imagine my day to day being oriented around making music or performing music really until post Turning Wheel. And there's a lot of variables to that. I think I'm in my thirties, Like I didn't really actually activate this craft until I was in my like mid twenties, you know, So there was this I felt like I'd already gone through this evolution in my life where I felt like I know who I am, you know, I have this sense of self and confidence that's not rooted in being a musician, so you know, going through that, putting out the album, getting like an amazing amount of support for it and growing my audience and all that, and I just was like, whoa, I feel like I'm having this second sort of adolescence in my life where I'm like once again being shaken up, like having an identity crisis almost like who am I now? And how does this change my life path? And all of those things and just insecurities coming up I just never thought I'd have to encounter again, Like I already went through this as a teenager, just being like what does it mean to like, you know, my image, my relationships and my romantic connections, my friendships, all of that started to kind of get re oriented around now pursuing this thing like full full force and full heartedly, and so Portrait of my Heart. A lot of those songs are just like, yeah, stepping back into that sort of adolescent space of like oh man, just like a restlessness, sort of angst, a lot of grasping and questioning at those sort of things that I just already thought I had figured out.

00:04:00
Speaker 1: Would you say it's the songs to you are more questioning and reaching than your last record.

00:04:06
Speaker 2: Just in a different scale. And I think prior to this, I had a lot of comfort in my home space, and I you know, had my like spiritual practices and routines, like I meditate, I spend time in nature, and like I was channeling from there, like my interests in like you know, occult arts and magic and spirituality and cosmology like all of that stuff. Like I spent a lot of time reading and researching and just writing, and so I would draw from that, like and I think things were you know, there's songs on Turning Wheel that are very much about like love and romance and connection, but kind of more pointed in this like cosmic scale loves in like universal love or you know, like love is in cosmic love and that kind of analogy. But with Portrait of my Heart, it's just it's more one to one. It's more just like tea and real life situations and like personal affairs and my own matters of a heart. So yeah, it's a big shift. And now now that I'm talking about it, it's like, oh, yeah, this is about to come out, and this is like my life, and it's it's a little weird. It's it's like way more vulnerable.

00:05:23
Speaker 1: Wow, it's interesting because I would have thought the opposite, not that I mean both seem very sincere, but I would have thought that that Turning Wheel was more directly to do with your everyday life and sort of more maybe more actually a portrait of your heart than this one. But I guess that's why, and I guess that's why you title this one.

00:05:44
Speaker 2: It's all InTru laced too, you know, like it's just kind of what I was, what I was describing as being on a different scale. And but yeah, they're both. I think the through line is intimacy. I think that's a big theme on all the things that I make, is like intimacy with the self and with relationship or connection to spirit and the those kinds of things are carrying through since Pantheon of Me and to Portrait of my Heart as well.

00:06:16
Speaker 1: Since you talked about like having different practices, whether it's meditation or just kind of communing with nature. Is music another version of that for you?

00:06:27
Speaker 2: Yeah? Absolutely, it kind of feels like for me it was the big piece of like, Oh, I found where I can really direct my purpose and feel like I can direct my like particular gifts and talents in the right way, and so music is that for me. And it's kind of like my big take on spirituality in general is just what can you do to you know, elevate your like best abilities and you know, make an impact. I struggle with connecting to people, even though I want to, and I yeah, and I think that music kind of like always helps me to bridge that. Like it's the thing that connects me to all, like all let my relationships and friendships, even my family.

00:07:17
Speaker 1: Like how does that play out in your life? How does that look in your life?

00:07:22
Speaker 2: I mean it's really like it's really simple just sending songs back and forth with friends. It feels like I can know you so well just by that, you know. And my dad and I our relationship is really been kind of glued together through music, and you know, he'll send me YouTube videos back and forth throughout the week. That's kind of like how we mostly communicate is like through songs. And I don't know, I think like knowing what someone loves or what speaks to them is so special and it like just access to something you couldn't really describe really with words ever. And that's how I feel about just like speaking in general, too, Like I have such a hard time like saying what I mean and how I feel, but I can do it with music.

00:08:04
Speaker 1: And when I first met you, you were a writer. Yeah, it's how in my mind. Yeah, So when it comes to writing, though, you're able to organize and your thoughts and sort of clearly get out what you're trying to say.

00:08:18
Speaker 2: Better than like conversation for sure, But even then it's not as immediate like music just is like something that's just so immediate and it doesn't need like a translation for me, like I just feel like I can just act as a conduit. And yeah, I started off with writing. You know, you saw me doing poetry workshops and stuff like that, and that was what really launched me into making music. From there, I was like, oh, poetry is this other like vein of music where you can say a lot with just a few things and have all these multiple meanings and just a couple of words. And so I was playing around with that and then got a loot pedal and good, all right, I think I cringed thinking about that chapter of my life. We can we don't need people digging into that.

00:09:19
Speaker 1: But that was the first time I ever met you. Do you remember, do you remember meeting.

00:09:22
Speaker 2: Yeah at a workshop.

00:09:25
Speaker 1: Not at a workshop. We were on like telegraph and and you were, I think, just leaving a workshop. And I had walked from like downtown, but on foot on I was hooking it just like I was like, okay a bus. I was like waiting for a bus and was taking forever, so I wanted to start walking and a bus will eventually. I don't know how. I walked forever, and then finally a bus came and you came up. A couple of different other.

00:09:51
Speaker 2: People, Yeah, a couple of other poets, a couple of the poets telegraph.

00:09:55
Speaker 1: Casually a couple of the poets materialized and we rode the bus together. And that was Remember that was for something to me, like, yeah, we just came from this you like like we were still over there this poetry.

00:10:06
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh man, what a time. Yeah, it really felt like serendipitous, the friends I made along that journey, like being at E. C. Berkeley and yeah, really just like romanticizing walking around Telegraph Avenue, just like you were doing it my little journal.

00:10:29
Speaker 1: Yeah, but never did you know. It's fun And like you say, you feel now almost like you're reaching a second adolescence it's like I can relate because I never I feel younger in a way than I ever did, because back then I felt like old. I felt like or like I was like.

00:10:48
Speaker 2: Like, like, do you have a timeless quality to you? I feel like you're like you could jump back back and forth and thank you.

00:10:54
Speaker 1: I'll accept that. I'd never considered that for myself, but maybe that's the truth. But like that, I felt like I was like running out of time. Like I don't know how to explain that, but I felt I was like, I remember when you picked up but then you were about to say you started picking up some loop pedals. If I remember were you getting music equipment? And I remember like looking at you and just being like are we too old for this?

00:11:15
Speaker 2: Ship? I remember this conversation I feel like we were talking about. I was like, I think I'm gonna start doing this.

00:11:22
Speaker 1: And you're like, I'm about to learn. Like you got like a keep, you were so excited you got a keyboard, and like all the time, I'm like like, and I think you know somewhere, I think you know I probably would have loved and have done the same thing.

00:11:32
Speaker 2: The time you're trying to take me down, aren't we aren't.

00:11:36
Speaker 1: We I just want to bring down with me, like I think we're like too old for this ship, Like what are you afterwards?

00:11:44
Speaker 2: Like let me see if I can what I can. Yeah, but it blew me.

00:11:49
Speaker 1: Away because like it's like you you started doing that and then like pretty quickly the music you were making was psycho.

00:11:55
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm glad that it was quick because I didn't have time to waste, you know, like if it was sorted out within the next few years, then what No. I mean, I think I've always had the mentality of feeling like a late bloomer, feeling like my pace is like a little bit behind everybody else. So good thing. I wasn't in that frame of mind where I want I wasn't running, you know. I was like this is this is happening, and I'm doing it and yeah, there there wasn't a lot of questioning right at that point in my life. Now there is. Now there's a lot more of like what's to come and what's next? And I you don't I have to actively work to like cast those thoughts away. But yeah, I'm curious, why do you feel like you're you feel like younger than you have previously, you feel like it's about sort of having some security that.

00:12:48
Speaker 1: That's a good question. I don't know. I think it's something to do with I don't know that that feeling of running out of time has gone away, Like I feel like I.

00:12:58
Speaker 2: Have coasting, So I don't know.

00:13:00
Speaker 1: No, I don't know about coasting as much as I hope I'm not gonna be maybe I hope not, though, No, but I just feel like I have more time than that, which is so I like the complete opposite feeling was whereas then I felt like there was not there was no time and I was late, and you know, like now I'm like, oh, there's.

00:13:20
Speaker 2: Nothing trying to catch that bus.

00:13:22
Speaker 1: Yeah, I just trying to catch that bus exactly. But but now, yeah, I guess maybe now I'm on the bus and I'm like, yo, there's there's nothing but time. And so it's just that it's just a feeling. I don't know if it's even like a real thing.

00:13:34
Speaker 2: I mean, I think that's a real that thing that can manifest physically though, Like I feel like you can pause or slow down time depending on your perspective and mentality. It's like it stretches and it contracts and it condenses like depending on all of those things. But like you're time traveling different than I am and everybody else. It's an interesting sensation. I feel like time is just like rapidly going by so fast, Like I feel like I'm constantly running out of time.

00:14:04
Speaker 1: Totally switch physicians. So what change? What changed for you? Because because you know, it's like, I don't know, I've never like I don't even I hesitate to say that, like you've clearly hit your stride because like I've always thought of you as a person who was like top tier at like whatever whatever you were doing, I always feel like you were doing it well. So I feel like you've kind of always been in your stride. So I don't mean it that was competitive.

00:14:28
Speaker 2: They gotta at least give that impression even if I'm not.

00:14:32
Speaker 1: No, I believe I believe you are secretly competitive. But no, but but it me. I mean, you've clearly like carved out like a really nice space for yourself. So why do you feel like now you're feeling.

00:14:45
Speaker 2: I mean, I just it's more of like a sentimentality thing, like I don't want it to go away, Like I don't want the I want it to last longer. So maybe it's actively thinking about that that can speed up things. You know, it's I think there's this resistance is an interesting principle where it's like, yeah, the more you are resistant to something, the more push back against you. So I think me being like I want to dwell in this moment for as long as I can, and like kind of like almost like feeling like mourning that this time is gonna not last forever. That makes it go by quicker. So it's just like you got to practice I tried to remind myself to practice like more presence, and you know, everything runs its course in certain ways, and who knows, Like, I mean, this is a current that I'm in right now, but there's so many other creative like potentials for the future, and like I didn't see this coming for myself, Like at that time when we were talking about music, I was just like, I'm just gonna get some keyboards and mess around. I didn't see this as where I would be at all, So who knows what's next in ten years?

00:15:57
Speaker 1: Yeah? Is this feeling where uh like, keep it keep it alive comes from oh yeah a song?

00:16:04
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, exactly exactly. That track makes me anxious to listen to. I enjoy it, but yeah, that's definitely the quality in it is trying to just stay ahead and outpace the maybe responsibilities and you know, inevitable endings. It's kind of the the vibe on that one.

00:16:32
Speaker 1: Do you remember Strumer sitting down to write that.

00:16:35
Speaker 2: I remember that strangely a lot of times, the songs that I end up making our versions of other songs that people might never make the connection to. Like I was listening to it's like an eighties Marvin Gaye album, and there's the opening of it. The strings on it are doing something really weird, and I kind of ripped the stringline a little bit from this track and it created this sense of like chaos. But in his version, of course, it's like super dreamy and romantic and like lush, and I'm like, I'm gonna kind of borrow this like chord change and put it in this context and it's gonna sound super hectic.

00:17:19
Speaker 1: Was it the sexual Healing album?

00:17:20
Speaker 2: No, it's Dream of a Lifetime, So it's it's it's madness. You know that one, And I don't know that you should listen to it. And now I'm wondering if you related.

00:17:29
Speaker 1: At all, probably not because I didn't hear any Marven on this, but I mean that's kind of the cool That's why that's a that's a really cool approach to making something because it's like it's kind of like it's like sampling in a way, like it's like taking something from something that you really like and it's turning it making it work for you, you know.

00:17:47
Speaker 2: Yeah, and the song, like the lyrics, it's like he's saying it's called it's madness, so he's kind of dealing with I think, similar ideas with it where it's like time running out and like sort of like living in a cyclone in your mind, and he's he's like, oh with is Mama, And he's like it's an interesting and weird song where it's like super dreamy and beautiful, but then the lyrics are kind of dark and yeah.

00:18:16
Speaker 1: Well Marvin's Casey really was running out of time too, which is the eerie thing. Yeah, but you know, like I wonder like with him, you know you could you can go to also like a like a like a guy like Tupac obviously to right, he's always like rapping about his own death and it's like prophetic yeah, like was it prophetic or did you make it real? You know?

00:18:43
Speaker 2: So I just wonder Jeff Buckley too, But I've been spending a lot of time listening to Grace. That was a sort of entry point into like how am I going to shape the sounds on Portrait of My Heart too, and thinking about his like it kind of sounds like sometimes when he's singing, he can censor, like perceive running out of time, and there's that like almost desperate to his voice that makes it so good.

00:19:13
Speaker 1: Yeah, I wonder though, like how much of that is is like perceiving truth or reality or how much of that is just like people reading signals wrong or just you know, like I don't know, like.

00:19:28
Speaker 2: Yeah, or sabotage self sabotage, sabotage you know, like yeah, yeah, it's interesting. It's kind of like I always reference that like meme of the cartoons on the bus, like ones looking at the window all happy looking and the other one's like sad, and it's like it'll stay the same thing, Like I just saw it yesterday and it's like I don't understand David Lynch And it's like someone looking at the window looking all happy and then the sad person's like I don't understand David Lynch. It's like it's just like yeah, you know, like I'm running out of time, like I could be really depressed about that, or I'm running out of time like you know, things are just gonna happen, and you can like it can be to your empowerment to see it that way. Sure, I guess I don't, Like I don't know next topic.

00:20:21
Speaker 1: I don't know if I can find the framing of that to be a I mean, it might be maybe that's my limited perspective. That might be my you know, my hang up. I'm not sure, but I know what that feeling is, and you know, I just so much preferred not to be it's a because it can be limiting in its own way, you know, Like like again like where you were when you started this music thing is like certainly you were not in that space and that allowed you to, you know, just be more improvisational, like I want to get this keyboard and mess around and then you know, you just never know when you're improvising in life like what that can lead to, you know, And that's a living more in that space to me, even though like you know, you listen to more and that guy he's just he's so tortured and the music is so beautiful, but I just prefer it just seems like life is better when you're when when when you're allowing yourself the lee way to you know, try things and not feel like I have to do this because there's not you know, I don't enough time.

00:21:34
Speaker 2: I got to do this now, I know, I know, and I want. I think going forward a lot of conversations and like some album interviews I've been doing, the more I talk about the like journey and the origins of this project and where it's headed, I feel so like I have to continue to nourish the things that feed that and feel that because it's gotten me to this place. And the more I try to like play by the book or follow them the sort of industry standard, it's gonna strip away more than it's going to add. And I don't necessarily know what that will look like yet, but I think it's something that's just actively on my mind and going to start, you know, looking for more opportunities to recreate kind of like the improvisational space you're describing, where it's like you're not I'm not feeling pressured to or obligated to do things a certain way and with the portrait of my heart, and I had to see it through. It was what was calling to me. And I'm really happy with how it all came together. And but there is this I can feel my intuition being like what's next is stripping back again and kind of going back into like a solo approach and getting messier with my stuff because I've gained a lot of technical skill and like you know, spent that put the work in on, Like I know how to make the things I want and they can somewhat match what ideas I have. I didn't have that when I was working on Pantheon. I was just like fruit Loop, Studio free Edition, like Audacity, just like record. I don't know how to fix that. So it's just going to be that way. And then you know, like I don't know what I was doing at all, so.

00:23:30
Speaker 1: But you didn't know, and but like you, but like, but it's not true, Like you you managed to make something that felt right to you at least I think or felt right to other people. I mean, that's a that's a great project. But you've definitely gained like the ability to maybe be more precise.

00:23:45
Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe be more precise, and yeah, just know more how to use like do things more efficiently because I spent a little like it took a long time to make things that I could do a lot quicker now. But yeah, I look forward to that. I want to just I have another set of songs that I was working on kind of alongside Portrait of My Heart and decided to just go with the like funnel those and to the like a little more pop sensibility album. But then the other stuff is like a lot more lo fi and just more like the Witchy Spelling origin stuff.

00:24:31
Speaker 1: We'll be back with more from Spelling after this break. Spelling as the uh you know the name you release stuff under, is that is that witchy in origin?

00:24:45
Speaker 2: It's yeah, somewhat, yeah, sort of in the more of like it was funny to me as a name. I liked that the word itself kind of made me think of like a creature and I would like imagine myself as this little like elevin creature name spelling, and but yeah, just it was just a reference to words, and like words is magic and cantation, and I think, yeah, the early stuff I was making like Creola Church. It was like a lot of repetition, just a lot of like repeating words over and over until it felt like it's turning into some sort of hypnotic state. And that's where that comes from.

00:25:25
Speaker 1: In this Is there any of that in your mind in the on the new project, in the new album, Like, is that still a part of what you're doing or somewhat?

00:25:37
Speaker 2: I mean, I think I'm always the biggest things I'm always inspired by are usually like books and literature, poetry, and so those influencers are always there. Even when I'm describing like oh, these are like more just like matters of the heart and like situational like love stories and things like that, It's still still very much being drawn from like a lot of like research and interests and that kind of stuff. And Portrait in My Heart was the first song that kind of opened up the floodgates for what was to come after with the rest of the album.

00:26:14
Speaker 1: And that was the first song you wrote.

00:26:16
Speaker 2: That was the first song I wrote. Yeah, And I remember.

00:26:19
Speaker 3: The line thea like that came to me on the when I was on the piano, and I remember it sounding kind of like a halftime thing likea.

00:26:37
Speaker 2: Like that, I'm very like slow, and I was like this is cool, Like this is giving. I don't know what this is giving, but it's got something. And then I was frustrated with like I felt like it needed to be more aggressive and I felt fresh, Like I was like, I don't want to make another like long, slow, dramatic song like I want to. I just want to switch it up. So then I started messing around with the drum machine and when I had that like like that, and then I changed the way that the line came through, and then Yeah, the vibe of that whole track on my mind at the time was like what's next and what's to come? Like feeling like I'm running out of time all those things, and like feeling a lot of apprehension and self doubt as far as like god, being an artist, you're just like constantly thinking about yourself, like this kind of sucks, Like I'm tired of this, Like I'm tired of hearing my own boys, I'm tired of what I have to do next, And I just feeling like it's so selfish to be my so self absorbed, you know, with but that's what it takes to make the thing. So yeah, the song is kind of about that and just feeling like, you know, you're pursuing your pursuing your idea to this extreme where you're starting to like lose track of reality, lose track of what's important to you and your life, and things really just start to fade away, and you like live in a delusion, and a lot of times, like to make the best things, you gotta like live in the delusion. And so I was fully living in that, and the lyrics came through like that, like lost, shattered in the dark, stranger in my head. It's like grappling with like the artist self and creating a kind of like a prison of your own imagination. Yeah.

00:28:42
Speaker 1: I haven't really thought about it that way, but it's like one of the great ironies of being an artist, I guess is you're constantly I guess it's by nature a bits it is a bit selfish, or maybe there's another way of thinking about it, but that definitely is you know, yeah it.

00:28:55
Speaker 2: I mean it's a beautiful part of it too, and that's that's the song is kind of just questioning all these things, and I think the spiritual portion that comes in is like this feeling or sensation sometimes that I have. It's like my relationship with God and feeling like God is the ultimate artist, and like has you know, placed certain like circumstances or situations for each individual life and like what you push back or what you contribute towards it versus what you don't how much of that is like your responsibility and like almost even like as being as an artist, are you like challenging against like your nature and what God intended you to do? So that that's kind of like I.

00:29:40
Speaker 1: Mean, so you feel like maybe God was not intending for you to be an.

00:29:42
Speaker 2: Artist, yeah, or maybe that your those like your gifts or abilities could be better placed through other things instead of this, Like was.

00:29:53
Speaker 1: It teaching that was the other thing?

00:29:55
Speaker 2: Could you another thing?

00:29:56
Speaker 1: Yeah?

00:29:56
Speaker 2: I could see another life path where that was like where I like put my efforts and my gifts towards or I don't know, like being a mother or being like you know, these other roles or yeah, these other roles in life that like I haven't necessarily chosen or hasn't haven't happened. So that was the crisis of that song.

00:30:19
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know, like choosing Yeah, I don't know, just as like a parent now three times over. I don't know, I don't think I've ever chose.

00:30:27
Speaker 2: You were chosen.

00:30:29
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was that was the other way I was chosen. So, you know, I'm just sure when it's funny, we always think about that as a good you know, when I talk to other people, like, I don't know if I want to, I don't know if it's like so much up to you, you know, I don't know it's so much up to any of us, you know. So you know, but it's interesting.

00:30:49
Speaker 2: I mean, well, it's not that I see it that way. It's just that kind of like those curiosities coming up, you know. And yeah, I encountered some like weird poem that was talking about an artist as like a thief or like a sort of like a con artist, like you know, like portray reality in a way that it's not and like taking your money for it.

00:31:14
Speaker 1: You know.

00:31:14
Speaker 2: And it's it's just like a weird, funny, interesting concept to me, right where it's like an artist kind of demands a lot from you they can, and there's this of like narcissism involved, and it's like their their job is to like create a reality that's not reality. And like sell you on it.

00:31:32
Speaker 1: This is a that's a very Bay area. Yeah, person, I'm living down here in l A. And it's like normal than me. Take the money and run.

00:31:45
Speaker 2: I know. That's why I need to move down here.

00:31:48
Speaker 1: Yeah, but no, but it's not like it's not a it's not a wrong interpretation, but you know, or that certainly can seem true.

00:31:56
Speaker 3: Yeah.

00:31:56
Speaker 1: What other stuff were you reading or watching or listening to around this?

00:32:02
Speaker 2: Hmm? I did a lot less of that. I mean also for Portrait of My Heart. I had seen that movie What Dreams Bake and that also like inspired with Robin Williams and Cuba getting juniors in it, and he's the angel if I ever saw it, he did it.

00:32:18
Speaker 1: I remember the movie It's Freaky.

00:32:20
Speaker 2: That also lended into a lot of the like imagery in that song, because it's like he his wife passes away and he's trying to like rescue her from health and he goes on this whole odyssey and uh, the way she was a painter in the movie and so like her re out, like her Heaven I think is like all like watercolor painting, and it's like really beautiful. She moves through it and it's like the trees are all rippling with paint and stuff, and so that that was the I had seen it a long time ago and always was kind of freaked out by it by it and it's a really intense movie, but it's also so beautiful, and I had watched it again and that kind of helped me with that song Portrait of My Heart and just like kind of like that theme in general of just like painting and yeah, and yeah, other books like mount Anlo that's a song based off that, And that's a book that I really enjoyed. I found it at.

00:33:15
Speaker 1: Wait, it's a book, Mountain, not analog. I didn't know there was a book. Yeah, I loved that title.

00:33:19
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was just gonna call it an analog. But I'm glad I threw I kept the Mountain so anyone can like look it up and hopefully read it. It's I found it. There's this bookstore and Silverlate called Stories. One of the times I was out here, it was up on the shelf for like staff picks, and I was like, oh, it's like inspired Alejandro Jodrowski's Holy Mountain, and so he was inspired by that book to make that.

00:33:48
Speaker 1: Movie and analog. Yeah, no way, well.

00:33:51
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and it's beautiful. It's just like it's like an adventure story about a group of mountaineers that try to scale this mythic mountain that's supposed to exist somewhere, but it's like hidden from from view and you can only you know, find it if you're coming with like a pure heart and intentions. And there's just like weird mystical concepts in it that I really latched onto and it tried to infuse in the song. And you know, they're like sailing towards this mountain, so I'm sort of trying to create that. Like there's like this noise starts and like grows all the way up till the end of the song. It'supposed to sound like waves. Tried to like set the scene that way.

00:34:39
Speaker 1: Yeah, good music can be so dense sometimes in like really cool ways, Like like I don't mean that dense, maybe lush is the word, but do things tend to start more simply and then did they come to you sort of like with almost pre arranged in a sense of like you kind of know all the different kinds of sounds you want in this thing.

00:35:02
Speaker 2: I think that's that's more the case like I usually have. It's more about reeling back than like adding a bunch more like That's never really been a big struggle with me as far as like arranging or writing a song. Was just like some people describe like they can't stop or they keep adding stuff or don't know when to stop. I feel like I always know when to stop, and usually I'm kind of stripping things back. That's kind of more the process and some more than others. Like I think the most challenging track was Waterfall, where I played around with so many different versions and like tempos and nothing felt quite right and we landed somewhere that I'm happy with. That's my favorite song on the album, as long as it's capturing the core in a really authentic way that I'm happy and I kind of feel like the ornamentation of things can kind of be interchangeable.

00:35:53
Speaker 1: What makes Waterfall your favorite song?

00:35:57
Speaker 2: I think because it was such a puzzle to hack and like figure out that it was just so satisfying once it really clicked, because I was kind of like, damn, am I going to compromise and just kind of put this out even though it doesn't feel one hundred percent right, and I really didn't want to do that. And then at the last minute it kind of fell together. And I was in Athens, Georgia mixing the album with Yeah, like a couple days left, and I still didn't have the lyrics really figured out. I was like, well, mix the song last and like hopefully something comes together. And I was driving home and it's like the like the like country South darkness that's like ooh, like it's just you feel it and your bones kind of a thing. And I was driving and listening to the demo and like started to get that like shivery feeling where it's like ooh, I feel like kind of scared but like also like dangerous right now. And I felt like this rush of like I don't know, just like a flash of inspiration and helped me figure out the lyrics on that. But it was amazing. There's always there's always a story like that, like last minute some things like he had to get to this point to finally be handed that. That's how I feel about that track, So it's a favorite. And also just the lyrics are super special to me. It's about losing somebody and like I lost a friend of mine, David who also inspired me to start making music, and so I had him in mind and was like thinking about him through this process and like kind of being like my guiding angel through this whole experience of being an artist. Now, so the song is dedicated to him and thinking about grief as like it's just change as a form.

00:37:48
Speaker 1: Of change, and yeah, yes, what what happened?

00:37:52
Speaker 2: He died tragically and he was hit by a unibus and it was like he was only we were all like in our early twenties twenty two at the time. This was at the Telegraph house that we were all living in, so he was one of my roommates. And this is like a beautiful, flamboyant person who would just like bust into my room all the time and be like, let's go do stuff together. So I moved into his room after he had passed, like later months later, and that's when I started getting music equipment because I was like I feel him. I could feel him in the room, and I feel like he would want me to be making stuff. Wow, Yeah, I wanted to, like I always sing and like make things, but I didn't think my voice was strong, Like it was something that I didn't push it or try to like take it seriously. So yeah, I was like, this is just another tool for me when I started making music to like, you know, just kind of like the like producer who also makes music sort of thing where the voice is just being utilized hopefully like as another instrument. But it wasn't something like where I came in as like I'm a singer and then you know, I feel a lot more confident in my voice now it's grown on me. But yeah, moments of songs like Alibi or certain songs, I'm just like it feels like to me, like to me too much me in there.

00:39:20
Speaker 1: It's interesting.

00:39:21
Speaker 2: It's too much like in this track like Analog, where it's like I can kind of feel like I'm like I'm just a part of the music more got it, Yeah, part of the tapestry. And then in Alibi it's like I'm gotta be like deliver in this this other way where it's just a different sensation.

00:39:41
Speaker 1: It is a pretty straight straight ahead song. You know that feels new for you on the album, And I was mentioning earlier like the abundance of guitar also feels new for you. Yeah, how did that come together? Like what when did you realize you were gonna that was gonna be drive a lot of the sound.

00:40:00
Speaker 2: I guess when Portrait clicked in the way that it did, I was like, Okay, I'm going back in time. I'm going back to this like sort of high school self. What was I listening to then? What were the things that fueled that attitude? And I needed to kind of like get in my radio head bag, my like system of a down and smashing pumpkins and all of the like kind of nineties grunge rock stuff, And that just made it sense to me, like, oh, I'm gonna it's gonna be guitar based, and that'll be a sort of like touchstone for the first time, because I think before then I never like I didn't just made whatever and like let the song demand what instruments to use. And this time I'm like, I want to have a little bit more of a centerpiece here. So rock Palette.

00:40:54
Speaker 1: You forced the issue, We're gonna issue.

00:40:59
Speaker 2: Sit on it.

00:40:59
Speaker 1: Yeah, stay visits down what I don't even know who played guitar on that?

00:41:05
Speaker 2: No, my band, So in my band right now, Wyatt plays guitar. He played all the songs on Portrait, and we had a couple of guests like on Alibi, Pat from Turnstile like also played on that and Braxton from Zulu. So yeah, but Whyatt held down and like helped me like arrange and write a lot of this stuff. And then Julio it's our bass player. He's a jazz player. He's like you know his style. He's like a music addict. He can't stop playing music, you know, like every day he has a gig. And he always mixed the live performances really dynamic. And I'll be like, Okay, we have our set lists. This is what we're gonna do every night, you know, because it feels good to kind of just like lock in and get better at the same thing. And he'll be like, this is boring. We gotta do like I'm gonna do something different every night, you know.

00:41:59
Speaker 1: Like, so who's on Satisfaction? Is that? Why?

00:42:03
Speaker 2: Yeah?

00:42:04
Speaker 1: That gets pretty hardcore? What did that call him at the end? Or were you like we're gonna for sure just gonna like funny, did you know from the jump that you were going to song would end up like yeah, turn that into like a slayer.

00:42:20
Speaker 2: I'm trying to remember where that song even when I wrote that one. I think it was kind of like having this more like wicked synth flare to it at first, Like I remember making that the guitar line that's like no no, no, no no no, and it kind of had more of like a Queen of Wands sort of like prog synth rock feeling to it. Like I started to get real theatrical with like all the synth work and stuff, and I'm like, what would it sound like it was stripped down and just like a much more brutal and just guitar instead of all this like chaotic synth stuff happening.

00:43:01
Speaker 1: Like the guitar was down bad for a while. Yeah, like it could use a renaissance, like I like having music, so I was, but it's just it was such a wild that wasn't a flavor I was used to from your song.

00:43:19
Speaker 2: I know, yeah, I know. I mean I think about some Pantheon stuff and like I would have the impulse to do kind of what I'm doing on Satisfaction or with like other heavier tracks, but it's like I just didn't have the means too, like real fun. I tried to kind of go there and make this like sort of like doom metal guitar, but with the synth. So I would just like emulate what I wanted to sound like on on the gino And what did it lived like that I was saying, I feel like the got to channel some of those like the first instances of music that felt like they were different than what I was like growing up listening to, Like my mom listened to a lot of neo soul and R and B and all that stuff really still comes through too, like in the nineties, like Mary J. Blige, like she's one of the people who taught me how to sing, and Randy and Monica and Tony and like.

00:44:16
Speaker 1: You was like singing other records.

00:44:18
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, and then you know, so that was the music I was like raised on and like in my household and like but then I think some of the like alt rock stuff I got into, like AFI and like pop punk stuff.

00:44:30
Speaker 1: That was your dad. Yeah.

00:44:31
Speaker 2: No, it was like me in like a suburb and like going to Borders Bookstore and being like raised by Borders Bookstore and like you know that I'm speaking to kind of like oh, hearing something else and feeling like what is this like for hearing like system of a down for the first time and being like, oh, what is this feeling happening right now? Like I didn't know I had like these sort of sensations inside, but it's speaking to something that was there. And yeah, so Portrait of my Heart kind of like drawing from that alt rock palette that kind of felt like it kind of fueled this new fascination and interests in like this is my music too, Like this this is stuff that I really connect with.

00:45:16
Speaker 1: And like, you play and you played some shows with Turnstile, didn't you?

00:45:20
Speaker 2: I did? Yeah, yeah that's I saw Brendan Gates go on some podcast maybe and say how he loves Little Deer and I was like what it made me so happy? And then I think I reached out like DM tim or something was like no way, Like that's so cool that you even listened to Spelling asked us to play some shows. We played open for them in Vegas and like Tucson, I think, no, Yeah, it was. It was so interesting to stand up there in front of their crowd in Vegas.

00:45:59
Speaker 1: Vegas.

00:46:02
Speaker 2: Yeah, there was a lot of confusion. Yeah, there's a lot of like puzzled looks and then kind of like saw some people converted, like.

00:46:14
Speaker 1: The best kinds of shows of I love those, man. I love when it's just not like the perfect match for the audience, you know, like that's the most fun. Yeah.

00:46:23
Speaker 2: I thrive on that too, Like I like seeing the sort of perplexed crowd and then some heads nodding and be like I don't know, okay, Yeah, it was a lot of fun. And I love his voice like a portrait of my heart. We're working on doing a remix with him, so like featuring him on one of the tracks. It's just gonna be really great.

00:46:55
Speaker 1: After this break, we'll be back with the rest of my conversation with Spelling. Yeah, you're doing a whole remix like release of that album, but it's not gonna come.

00:47:08
Speaker 2: Yeah, just be a few tracks, and like Simon and I are working on those like remixed versions. And the last two years of just put more effort into connecting with other artists like that I really like like Brendan, and it to me like that's the biggest like affirmation along the way, like, oh, these artists I really love, like they love Spelling, and what can I like gain from that as far as just like creative collaboration and seeing what fusion will come from, because I think it's pretty all over the spectrum. Like the people who are interested in Spelling isn't like they aren't coming from this, Like I'm interested in the music because I like hardcore music, or I like, you know, this style of music, or it's just all over the map.

00:47:53
Speaker 1: Like because I don't know if there's like I don't know if you could do an algorithmic like if you listen to Spelling, you would also like like it's nothing like father to your style.

00:48:06
Speaker 2: You know, there's like sometimes I've like heard my music pop up on things I wouldn't expect it to, like algorithmically, But then I'm like, oh, I do see the crossover there, Like what, I'm a big fan of Cibo Matto and I was listening to their album that it sort of shuffling other stuff, and then one of my old songs was like a jump scare. I was like, what, why does this sound so familiar? It was Dirty Desert Dreams from Mazy Fly, and I was like, why is this playing right now? Yeah? That just sort of I guess like synth music.

00:48:45
Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess, but I don't know. I mean, yeah, yeah, you definitely have a unique style. Yeah, an amalgamation a lot. There's a lot going on in there. This is the remix I guess, or they just like duets or like wait what are the Yeah? How much are you changing the songs?

00:49:05
Speaker 2: I want to change them more like Simon and I. He's fantastic also, like we have great chemistry. He worked on the track sometimes on That's Just My Bloody Valentine cover on Portrait of My Heart, and he also did Waterfall and Drain, so he helped me just co produce those and then I was like, oh man, this was so cool. And I didn't really connect with him until towards the tail end of the whole process, and I was like, I wish we would have connected way earlier. But it's cool. And now I'm like, yeah, let's definitely do the remixes together. So so far we're working on three. There's I kind of wanted to like keep this a surprise though, like who the features are.

00:49:43
Speaker 1: Gotta gotta gotta got it. He worked with the Rabbi Zell on the project. Who you know, it's done a lot of good work for us and like a bunch of other people, how was that?

00:49:56
Speaker 2: It was great? You know, I feel like that was my first experience working with the producer. Everything has been self produced before, so there's there was definitely like a sort of an internal struggle at the concept at first, and I knew it would really it would really benefit me and help me grow just to get that opportunity. So when in and I feel like fifty to fifty, like you don't know if you're gonna vibe with someone then you can even if you like get along, and like it's like, how is that going to translate when it comes to like these creative decisions? And so I've come a long way as a person as far as like being able to even be in that scenario and context like what you so would probably just give me so much dread and anxiety. But he's the loss of control, the loss of control and also just having to make decisions with someone, you know, because I think when I'm working on my own and solo capacity, which I usually do producing, it's like I can take as much time as I need and like, you know, like there isn't this need to communicate actively, like it's just an internal communication. So I was like still a little nervous, but he's great, Like he's made everything feel so casual. I don't know what I was expecting, but yeah, he just had this confidence and like he remember him being like he showed me what he was sort of starting out with and he's like and I was already really digging it, and he's like, yeah, don't worry, You're gonna leave here with something you love. Like just like I was like, okay, confidence, I promise, I guarantee it. No, So he just had like a really good like, Oh he's great.

00:51:43
Speaker 1: Like he knows how to like, you know, he knows.

00:51:45
Speaker 2: What he's doing, he knows what he's doing, and he had I like that sense of assurance because I, you know, I don't want to be in the room with someone that's like m you know, like uh, like I want like do what you do best and like work from that. And like that felt really comforting just to like things didn't feel awkward at all. And also it was just awesome to see that was my kind of my all only one of few experiences seeing someone just like operate as a producer too, and I'm like, oh, he's doing these things or whatever, and like I do a lot of this stuff too, you know, Like it was just like affirming to be like, oh, there wasn't a blueprint. There's so much experimentation. There's so much just like fucking around with this like tape reel and still the like sensations of imposter syndrome come up or it's like what I do, is that good enough? Or is it like refined enough or whatever? And techniques and it's like we all don't know what we're doing in some capacity, like the idea of expertise is so relative, and especially in art. Yeah, but yeah, he's he's brilliant and like really helped me to like stand on ideas I had and be like no, like try it, like actually do it, and would follows through. And we came up with some just like some really fun stuff on Portrait, particularly like we were like strumming this trying to get real like pet sounds with it, like i'ming the piano keys and like doing all these effects on it and just adding subtle little like stuff that made a big difference. And I came in with this version of the song that was like once again like an eight. It was like eight minutes long, and he's like, this is cool, but cut this, cut like cut it in half.

00:53:31
Speaker 1: Was there like other sections or the preamble.

00:53:34
Speaker 2: I always do this too, And he's like, it's just my pop mind, just kind of saying like this doesn't happen again anywhere else in the song. I'm like, it was this intro stringline countermelody, and I thought that was the sickest part of the song. And I was like, there's no way, what like, what do you mean cut that? Like that? That is the song right there. And he's like, it just doesn't happen ever again, like and I'm like, oh, you know, like and I'm like, fine, we'll just let's try it. Let's try it, and like that little voice in my head coming up being like this is a mistake working with someone else, like I hate this, no, no, no, But it was really good for me to kind of just see that happen, like, oh, you know, the thing that you think is absolutely right sometimes isn't or that like.

00:54:21
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know to your point about there's no expertise, like yeah, we can't even be experts about ourselves and what we you know, it's hard to be objective about ourselves to anyway.

00:54:31
Speaker 2: Yeah, to be objective, and I always want to just do it. It was a good reminder do it takes to serve the song, and like, let's just at least try it. And I needed that like an outside brain to just show it to me in a different lay. So bed a really good time.

00:54:45
Speaker 1: I mean it's interesting that on this project you both want learned how you can work with a producer, but also like you like reified your own sort of abilities as a producer too, Like you kind of moving forward, do you think you want to self produce again or do you want to work with someone else again, or there's.

00:55:05
Speaker 2: A sense of like relief and like I was saying, I wanted to just go back to me for this next project and see what comes out of that. I'm really excited to. Like, yeah, I think that that experience with Rob was super affirming. I'm like, I feel like I'm I'm a strong producer, Like I know what I want, and I think that's the most important thing, is like knowing essentially what you want and acting on it, Like because you could sit there all day with there's so many other versions and options, but ultimately I do know what I want strongly, So I think I'm motivated to kind of just go there for the for what's next like self produce it.

00:55:41
Speaker 1: So future for spelling is let this album come out, do the tour, move to LA. It's self produced record.

00:55:51
Speaker 2: Sounds about right.

00:55:52
Speaker 1: Yeah, well glad you'll be around more.

00:55:55
Speaker 2: Me too. It's been I don't know. LA is just everything. It's like everything everyone says about it at the same time, like the good and bad. It's all there and.

00:56:05
Speaker 1: That's very true.

00:56:06
Speaker 2: Yeah, most of the good mostly mostly kid.

00:56:11
Speaker 1: Well, congratulations on the new album.

00:56:13
Speaker 2: Thank you.

00:56:14
Speaker 1: It's really great and I'm looking forward to spending more time with it.

00:56:19
Speaker 2: I appreciate it. Thanks justin. It's fun talking to you and very official.

00:56:29
Speaker 1: An episode description, you'll find a link told playlist of some of our favorite spelling songs. Be sure to check out YouTube dot com slash Broken Record Podcast to see all of our video interviews, and be sure to follow us on Instagram at the Broken Record Pod. You can follow us on Twitter at broken Record. Broken Record is produced and edited by Leah Rose, with marketing help from Eric Sandler and Jordan McMillan. Our engineer is Ben Tollinday. Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries. If you love this show and others from Pushkin, consider subscribing to pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription that offers bonus content and ad free listening for four ninety nine a month. Look for pushing and Plus on Apple podcast subscriptions, and if you like this show, please remember to share, rate, and review us on your podcast app. Our theme music's by Kenny Beats. I'm justin Richmond.