My Morning Jacket's Jim James

00:00:08 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Music has always been an escape for Jim James, from the time he started playing guitar as a shy teenager in Louisville, Kentucky through his decades long success as the frontman of My Mowing Jacket, his goal has always been the same, to lose himself in the music. Since starting My Mowning Jacket in nineteen ninety eight, he's released eight albums with the band, along with several critically acclaimed solo and side projects, and despite its prodigious output, Jim doesn't seem to be running out of material. In July, The Jacket released The Waterfall Too, a complete album of holdovers from their twenty fifteen album The Waterfall, and according to Jim, they've got another full album already recorded. Jim's also sitting on a solo project from nineteen ninety eight that he's recently started tinkering with again. On today's episode, Jim talks to Bruce Headlam about how, after decades of performing, he was only recently able to open his eyes on stage and make eye contact with the crowd, and he talks about how My Morning Jacket might not exist if it hadn't been for Kermit The Frog's Rainbow Connection. This is broken record liner notes for the digital age. I'm justin Richmonds. Just a quick note here. You can listen to all of the music mentioned in this episode on our playlist, which you can find a link to in the show notes for licensing reasons, each time a song is referenced in this episode, you'll hear this sound effect all right. Enjoy the episode. Here's Bruce Headlam's conversation with Jim James. Tell me about Waterfalls two. Tell me how it all came about. It's definitely not a leftovers record or a B sides record. It's like there was a time when we finished it all where we're like, oh, maybe we'll just release this giant quadruple record or whatever, you know, of all of the songs. But it just felt like that just would have been too much, and people probably would have missed a lot of the songs, just because it's way too much to sort through. Because even like the first Waterfall is still like double vinyl, it's still like a long record. I didn't really think about it until the Waterfall two. But I think we built the Waterfall one with a lot of touring in mind. You know, oftentimes like we'll think about like, oh, what songs are gonna be good in the set, or this kind of thing will work itself into the sequence of a record as the record sequences itself too, in that magic process. So it's interesting with the Waterfall too. You know, there was no touring because it came up the idea that came up to me during the first couple of weeks of Quarantine as a way to like reconnect with fans and reconnect with ourselves as a band, because I had forgotten about it, and I one of the songs came up randomly as I was walking and I was like, oh my god, we've still got this whole other record. You know, it's done. It's like, there's this would be hopefully a really great thing to release now while we're all trapped in this weird pandemic. So it's interesting because the record just like it just went shop and it all sequenced itself really quickly, and I took a couple walks with it to feel the sequence, and it was just so effortless. So when you say you walked with it, did you literally just put a sequence on your iPhone or your whatever and then just walk around to see did this feel like a record? That's how I walk, and I hike a lot, and uh, that's how I usually work on most music I'm working on, is whether I'm mixing something, or writing something, or sequencing something or approving a master or whatever, I'll go hike with it and see how it works as a hike. Yeah, that's just how I process it. For whatever reason. When I was listening to it and then I was going back and forth, sort of toggling between the two records. There's a lot more heartbreak in this record. It's much more ambivalent. It maybe is not the kind of arena rocker record. It's it's very hopeful at points. But the first record had more of a drive and I had, you know, started with believe and this one, you know, it starts with spinning my wheels. It's it's a very different feel. Is that a reflection of what you were going through back then or what you're going through now? Do you think? Well, it's funny. I think a lot of those songs didn't initially make the Waterfall one because of that reason. We were touring and we were like, oh, let's, you know, make it as upbeat as we can and stuff, and I had gone through a breakup than, you know, real difficult, painful breakup that a lot of those songs came out of. And it really is in a lot of ways of breakup record. But I think the reason it resonated with me, and maybe the reason it resonates with people now is because it feels like we're breaking up with life in a lot of ways, you know, in this pandemic, it's like we've we can't do so many of the things we used to love to do, and that's so painful. So it's like, I didn't really even think about that, But if it resonates with somebody, maybe it resonates on that level. Hopefully it's like a comfort to this sadness we're all feeling right now collectively in so many ways, you know, that kind of was broken open by the isolation of the pandemic. Why are the albums called Waterfalls? Well, I mean, I've just always loved nature, and I've always needed nature to balance the insanity of life on this planet because so many times I don't feel like I'm at home on this planet, and I don't understand people, and I don't understand why things are the way they are here, like why is there so much hatred and why is there so much violence and war? So I'll go into nature with the trees and the lake and the ocean and feel at peace, you know, with those beings and for me and nature, one of the coolest things is a waterfall. You know, when a water when you see a waterfall, whether it's a little one in the woods, or you know, giant snow quality falls or Niagara Falls or Multnoma Falls, or it's just always been something that like takes my breath away, you know, and I stand there and I can look at it foreffort, you know, and it's like it plays tricks on your mind and you can pretend like you're pausing it or like rewinding it or fast forwarding it. It's just this really amazing thing. So I just thought just to have that thing with the music felt so cool, you know. I ask because I grew up near Niagara Falls, and you know, the thing about waterfalls is there are a lot of people who when they see waterfalls, it scares them because they feel like they have to jump. You know. There's a whole community people around Niagara Falls who plan to go over the falls, even though they know it might kill them and you ask them why and they're just like, I just got to do it. Yeah. In Walt Whitman in Song of Myself, there's a very powerful scene where he walks out I think he calls it a headland, but it's like a promontory over a lake and he's feelings. People are laughing at him, and he's writing about being an artist, but it's all that thing like I'm out here and it's beautiful. Do I fall? Do I jump? Right? And I just thought of that so much when I was listening to this record. That's what made me think about it in the Waterfalls, because that whole thing of risking your life for the sake of a song is it's kind of like, am I going to jump? Yeah? And that's what a lot of the record feels like to me. No, I love that. I mean, I've never thought about that, but that resonates a lot, because, yeah, I feel that for sure with waterfalls. I mean, that's a great thing about a waterfall too, is you can view it from the bottom, you can view it from the top, you know, and when you're at the top, you are like, oh my god, you know, like this thing could carry me into the next dimension. You know. It's like, if I get on this thing and fried it off, I am probably gonna be gone from this dimension. And yeah, like Niagara, when you're at Niagara Falls, You're like, oh my god, Like, if I jump in this water and go over these balls, I'm gone. You know, you know, chances are likelihood that I am fucking gone. And that is like what else you know? Can you say that about that kind of powerful force that can rip your life away? You know? In nature? I mean so quickly. You know, of course you could drown in a lake or an ocean or whatever. But the waterfalls just like you know, it's like, yeah, it's vine and it's something kind of ecstatic and exciting about it too. Sorry, I hope I'm not ruining waterfalls for you. That's not what I meant to do, not at all. Tell me a bit about spinning my wheels, because it's it's got that. It's not the first line, but that incredible line about wondering about risking your life for the sake of a song, it's very unsettling. Tell me where that came from. Well, I just had been doing that for so many years. I had literally, like been to the hospital three times from injuries that I sustained on tour. And I really felt for so long touring was a love hate thing for me because I didn't listen to myself. I listened to managers, you know, and agents and pressure and you know, you gotta get out there and go on a sixth straight and blah blah blah. You know this this relentless push that so many people, I mean all of us know it in life, no matter what what job we're in. You know, everybody, at a certain point you have this crushing push of life, and if you don't listen to yourself and find some balance, you get hurt. You know, you get injured and literally and metaphysically. And I felt for so long that I was fighting that that I kept risking my life over and over again to do this this thing, this touring thing or whatever. So I think eventually that's kind of the jacket, kind of I had to put it on hold for a while. It takes so much energy. I don't know. If that's one thing people don't don't know or think about when they think about the bands they love or the artists they love or whatever. It's like, if you're fortunate enough to keep going for a long time, there's so much energy that you have to summon. You know. We've been touring now for over twenty years or whatever, so a lot of these songs I have to find the pain of the twenty two year old me or whatever, even though I'm a forty year old or whatever, you know. And it's like, it's this wild thing that takes up so much energy, and if you're not careful with that energy, it can kill you. It's like playing with electricity or something. Yeah, and you're famous for your live shows. They're electric. They're huge experiences for people. It's not like, yeah, I saw them, they played the songs I liked. It's like, oh my god, I saw my morning jacket. People go to feel something, to be transformed, that's what we hope. I mean, thanks, I don't you know. It's like, live music to all of us has always been such a healing thing, you know, so we want to be a part of that circle of healing. Yeah, when you see a live concert that moves you with people, you know again, it's that thing. It heals you so much. We need that so much right now, and that's we're missing it during the pandemic, you know, and it's this fucking like nightmare, you know. That's uh, yeah, it's it's such a powerful experience. So tell me a bit about growing up in in Louisville. You had a great quote once I read that everybody in the North thinks Louisville's in the south. Everybody in the South thinks Louisville is in the north. What kind of town was it when you grew up there? Yeah, I mean that's why I've always loved it. It's it's such a mysterious and strange place. I feel like there's so many ghosts here, and there's so many The nature here is amazing, Like the trees are amazing, and the spirits are amazing. There's a lot of creative energy here, but there's also a lot of darkness, you know, and there's a lot of the horrors of the past of the United States, you know, the horrors of slavery and the the horrors of you know, Louisville being such a strange place because, yeah, what it wasn't north, and it wasn't south, but it kind of was north and you know, on the underground railroad a lot of people would escape. And we went down some friends and I went down and stood on the banks of the Ohio River a couple of weeks ago and stood where fleeing slaves would stand before they tried to cross the Ohio River to get to this steeple on the other side in Indiana as this beacon that once they got to this steeple, they were probably going to be free. What was it like to stand there and look, I mean, I'm tearing it up thinking about it now, you know, it's like just standing there thinking about because that there's a part of town called Portland in Louisville. That was where Louisville came up, and it was the shipping port on the Ohio River. So there's a lot of you know, everything, a lot of slave trading, a lot of merchandise and everything in the town came from there, and a lot of that. All the buildings and stuff or have been gone or have changed, but there's still a lot of old houses there that they're like that house used to be, you know, where abolitionists would hide slaves right before they broke across the river to freedom, or that was a jail where they would capture slaves and you know, all this stuff, all this energy down there. You know, Louisville is still battling today with the death of Brianna Taylor and all of the systemic racism that you know, we're battling as a country, But in Louisville it's resonating at a really, really high frequency right now, which I think is is really hopeful in a lot of ways, because hopefully this energy can continue and push to more equality and more fairness and real justice. And but it's it's a Yeah, Louisville's a fascinating place. We should go back, though. So tell me about your family growing up. You know, for all intensive purposes, normal middle class family. We struggled for a while and you know, never had much money, and moved to Atlanta, Georgia for a couple of years and moved back to Kentucky. But always had a really great and supportive family, Like always had people I could depend on. Was there music at home growing up? You know, there wasn't a lot of music. Like my parents there was like music on in the car or whatever. They were casual music fans. And luckily when I was a kid, there's a lot of great just kind of oldies radio on with whatever Motown or Simon and Garfuncle or you know, whatever would be on the oldies radio. So I think a lot of that one into my brain. Was there a point, was there a record? Was there a song that when you heard it you said, oh, yeah, that's that's what I want to do. Yeah. I had several of those moments, you know. I mean the first one was the Muppet Show, seeing the Muppet Show band the Electric Mayhem. You're the first first musician I know whose favorite band growing up was with the Muppets. Man, Well, you saw them, and I remember, you know, even seeing Kermit sing the Rainbow Connection. You know, I just would see that and I'd be like, oh my God, Like what is that power he has? You know, what what is he doing? You know? And how do I do that? You know, like how do I sit on a log with a banjo and make that sound that affects people? Like this is affecting me, you know. And then as I grew older, I remember seeing Neil Young on Saturday Night Live to Harvest Moon. You know, that was a really turning point for me because we my mom and I were up late watching Saturday night live and he played and his tech was sweeping the broom, you know, and keeping the rhythm on the broom. And we both watched that and we're so moved by it. And the next day my mom bought me Harvest accidentally instead of Harvest Moon. You know, she was like, here's that record. We listen, here's what we saw Neil Young play last night. And I was like, oh cool. And I put it on and I was like, holy shit, you know, like this wasn't Harvest Moon. You know, that's a whole other thing, you know. So I was just like, I never forget it in the basement listening to that fucking record, you know, and just like that was definitely a current the frog moment, you know, of seeing Neil and at that time too, grunge was blowing up, so you know, seeing Kurt Comain, seeing Michael Stipe was huge for me. R EM was a huge thing of seeing like these weird dudes from the South, you know, that are like making this weird music that is having this beautiful effect on the world. You know, I'll never forget seeing r EM and being like, maybe, gosh, maybe I could do that. You know. It's like because I never felt like I could do hair metal, which I was also into at the time and was so popular, and I was like, man, I don't know if I can do the hair metal thing, you know, like I don't think I don't think I can accomplish that. But was it the hair or the metal? Because you got nice hair? Said, well, it was just so aggressive. There was this big, aggressive thing going on, you know, and it's like this big you know, as a kid, you watch that and you're like, shit, well, I gotta have a costume, and I gotta have, you know, leather outfit, and I gotta have these fucking walls and stacks, you know, and all this shit, all the things that went with it. You know that that you're like, shit, is that what you have to have if you're gonna be in a rock and roll man? You know, because I didn't have older I didn't have any older siblings to tell me about lou Reid or tell me about you know, Chuck Barrier or older rock and roll. So I kind of like was born into rock and roll thinking it was a heavy metal or whatever, you know, and then then you see Nirvana and you see r Em and you know, you see these bands that also talk about their influences. So you start going back and you're like, oh, fuck, I missed the whole. You know, first couple of chapters you were saving up for a banjo and a log. So have you actually ever played Rainbow Connection? Yeah? I played it a couple of times. Oh really, what's it like to play? It's amazing? I mean it's a master work. You know. It's like Paul Williams wrote that song and I mean Rainbow Connection again. It's like it's like lean on me or imagine or stand by me. You know, it is one of our greatest songs as a humanity. We'll be right back with more from Jim James after the break. Before we jump back into Bruce Headlam's conversation with Jim James, let's hear an acoustic performance of Spinning My Wheels from My Mowning Jacket's new album, The Waterfall Too. Was a guitar your first instrument? Yeah? And when did when did that start? Like seventh grade? Do you remember what your guitar was back then? Yeah, I've I've got I'm trying to think of which one I've got because I got like my uh my great aunt aunt Betty was kind of like my grandmother in a lot of ways, and she was a real big yard sale nut, you know, so she knew I was getting into guitar and she got me this real cool, you know, no name brand, little fifties guitar or whatever for thirty bucks at a yard sale. So I had that. And then my parents got me an acoustic for Christmas that was really cool. And then my uncle loaned me some money that I had to work at his paper company to pay him back for this like other like cheap squire strat, and I still got all three of those guitars. They all kind of came around the same time. And then there was just like a scene in Louisville, right like a good a lot of musicians where there were a lot of clubs. Why were there so many bands there? That was a wild scene. So I kind of came in on the tail end of that scene. It was really difficult scene. It was really really pretentious, and there was a lot of like just like kind of snobbery, and it wasn't a very healthy place, but there was some really great music that came out of it. And you know, as a little kid, you know, let's say whatever, eighth grade, sophomore in high school. Whenever you're first going to shows, you know, you want to be welcomed into these places, you know, but instead you go and it's like everybody's too cool for school, and it's kind of you know, it's kind of this metaphysical thing where you feel kind of like, shit, you know, I'm not cool enough to be here or whatever. But around that there grew another community of people who felt like that, who also created this beautiful scene of a more welcoming thing. So there's there, always has been, and there always will be a really vibrant, beautiful musical community here. That's uh, you know, so many different styles of music and just things. But yeah, that scene in the in the early nineties Louisville scene was incredibly popular and incredibly resonated, really big, but it was a really tough place to be. It's funny how local scenes they're either like the Seattle scene was in the early nineties, which there's actually those bands got along and they liked each other and they played with each other. Or they're like the sort of New York folks scene. They're not cooperative, they're competitive, and it gets a very cutthroat and as you said, people looking down another. You're playing the wrong song, you're playing the wrong instrument, you know, you're doing the wrong thing. But you found a group of people who are not like that. Yeah. Yeah, a group of people who could could just watch each other struggle, you know, and enjoy it and laugh about it, you know, like just just to have fun, you know, to be all be a part because we're all struggling, you know that. And that's one reason I think a lot of us love music so much, because it helps you get through the struggle. You've got a there's a strong spiritual element to your songs, and certainly the way you talk about it, there's a strong spiritual element, and you really, you really feel about music that it's a kind of restorative thing in people's lives. Did you go to church when you were a kid. Where did that sense come from, that spiritual sense? Well, it was my church. I am a recovering Catholic. I was raised Catholic and I'm still recovering from that. I've never been able to really get down with any kind of organized religion, like I don't. I don't. I also don't look down on it. Whatever people want to do is that was fine with me, but it never worked for me. So I always found religion in music and in nature. I feel like those were the only places I ever felt like my life mattered or that it made sense at all. That was the only way I could find peace, you know. And then once you start growing up and learning about people like George Harrison or Alice Coltrane or you know, people that really started to explain to you the spiritual side of music, you know, and that music is indeed healing, and indeed there are spiritual and scientific principles behind notes and frequencies and chords, and you know these things that in the music of the earth, you know, the music of nature, the music of the birds, the music of the waterfalls. You know, all these things that a lot of times we don't even realize our music as well. Do you take that with you into the concert hall, because your concerts are you know, people describe your concerts as religious experiences, not that they're converted to anything, but they're they're bigger than themselves. They feel connected in a way. Is that something you aim for or is it about your relationship with the audience. Where does that come from? Definitely. I mean, you aim for it, you don't always get there, you know, but the goal is to get lost, right, The goal is to be gone, you know, I think for all of us. And I I played a rally the other day for Amy McGrath here in Kentucky, and I hadn't played a show in for I can't remember the last time I play a show and I only played two songs. It was just a kind of rally thing, and I realized again that thing. I was like, there are these moments when the gateway is open, like the portal is open, and I'm gone, and then there's moments when I'm back and I'm like, oh shit, it's my guitar and tune or it's kind of cold out here, you know, and you're back on the earth thinking about all the shit that you think about. But when you're gone, you're gone, and you're in touch with everything. You know, You're in touch all of life forces in touch. I feel like when when we're in that state and you know, you can get there through meditation, or you can get there through love or sex, or you can get there through music, or you can get there through nature. So yeah, I hope when people come see our concerts. That can happen for them too, you know, they can I can get there so that they're not on the earth anymore, and we're all united on this other plane that we don't have words for. And you kind of come and go, you know, you step behind the veil and you're gone on and you wake up and you're like, oh shit, I gotta go pee, or I gotta go get a beer from the bar, or somebody just knocked into me, or whatever brings you back to earth. It sounds like you remember that experience of going into clubs when you were a kid and not feeling welcome. Oh yeah, there are things you do to make your audience feel welcome or tricks you do. I mean, we always want everybody to feel welcome, because that's one thing as a kid, and you know, like going to this scene, this this snobbish scene in Louisville, like I never felt welcome going to a Catholic grade school in high school, I never felt welcome. You know. I always felt like the outcast, kind of freak or whatever. And it's like, you know, at the end of the day, that's kind of all of our job to realize we're all in the same boat. You know, we're all some blend of unique freakishness in a beautiful way, no matter what you are, no matter how normal you think you are or how weird you think you are. So it's like music is one of the best ways to unify on that, you know. So I think we try to do everything we can to let everybody know that they're welcome and that this is all about equality and inclusion and safety and love and peace. And you know, how can we be as much of a force of love as possible. I'm wondering, when you're playing, do you do you ever look out and see somebody who reminds you of you back when you weren't feeling so welcome. That's a great question, you know what. It's wild. For the longest time, I couldn't look at people like I couldn't handle it. I mean for years, when we first started playing, I had my hair in my face and I had and for years I had sunglasses on. For a lot of times, I can't. It's so intense that I can't handle it. For years I couldn't, And then two or three years ago something changed and I could handle it. And now I like it now, I like looking out and finding people and looking into people's eyes and trying to see people, you know, And I've never thought about it that way, but I definitely you see people throughout the thing. You know, you see somebody and you're like, oh man, they look lost, or you see somebody crying, or you see somebody fucking throwing their beer in the air and screaming, you know, enjoy. And it's so it's like, that's a wild thing to be on stage and see that many different emotions, you know, like, was it just was it just too intense for you before? You couldn't it was too intense and I was too shy, and I was too nervous, and I was too because a lot of times too you'll look at people and they've got their arms crossed and they look like they hate it, you know. And until I realized, I was like, I probably look like that a lot of my favorite shows. You know, if I'm like kind of bummed or whatever, I'm not gonna be dancing and throwing a beer around, even though I'm like loving the show, you might look at me and I'm like, you know, and when you see people as a performer, I look in the crowd, and I used to see somebody like that, but I'll be like, oh shit, we're doing terrible this is a terrible show. I'm doing terrible job, you know. And it's like I would get focused on that one person that looked bummed and missed all the other people that looked joyful. You know. I just couldn't handle that for a year, for the majority of our career. Wow, is it nicer to play now? Oh yeah, Oh my god, it's incredible. I mean it's only the last two or three years or whatever that I've flipped the page and gotten into enjoying it. And now it'spec, you know. And it's so funny because the Jacket was on break for a long time and we got together and did these four shows, two at Red Rocks and to New York, and those shows were probably my favorite shows of my life. You know. It's like they were so beautiful and so all career spanning, and I felt so present and so connected, and it's like I could look into people's eyes and I didn't feel the need for any costumes or any tricks or you know, it's just like, let's go live or die, but with the music I'm gonna walk out here in my fucking T shirt with my guitar and I'm gonna look you in the eye. I'm gonna try. I'm gonna try to look you in the eye, and I'm gonna fucking live or die. And that's it, you know, that's the end of the thing. And it was so beautiful, and then the fucking pandemic hits. You know, it's like and that's like stop. You know, right when we were like, oh right, this is awesome, I'm like, I'm ready to do this. So now it's like, you know, we're all on pause or whatever. So whenever it comes back, it's like, I get teared up thinking about it. How powerful it's gonna be for all of us to go to concerts again. You know, when when we can all get together again, it is gonna be like fucking crazy. We'll be right back with more from Jim James after the break. We're back with Jim James and Bruce Hadlow. You've done a lot of covers. You did an album of Harrison covers. He did the New Basement Tapes, which were you and a lot of other great musicians, Elvis Costello and Mumfords and many people writing songs to Bob Dylan lyrics and you did the same thing with Woody Guthrie. What was it like to write to somebody else's lyrics? So cool? I mean, couldn't have better lyrical uh, you know than Dylan and Guthrie. You know, it's like so because we did the Woody Guthrie one first, and being at the Guthrie archives, like seeing all his massive output of lyrics like everywhere on grocery receipts and bags, and you know, there's piles, mountains and mountains and mountains of lyrics that this guy wrote, you know, and it's like, you know, and obviously he was no longer with us, so there was a lot of I would try and find him out there, you know, as I was writing these music and try and get his blessing and bring him in and hope that he was good with what was going on. And with the Dylan thing was so crazy because they like brought all these lost lyrics that he had written back in the Woodstock basement tape days or whatever, and we're sitting here looking at like the actual pieces of paper, the literal pieces of paper that he wrote all this shit on and you're like, motherfucker's still alive. You know. It's like, I hope he likes this stuff. You know. It's like so I'd like tried to find him, you know, and and and look to him for guidance, you know, in the ether or whatever, even though he's still alive. And the first day we were there, somebody's like Jones across the hall like some other records, and we were all like, oh shit, we were all like super terrified, were like, I hope he was a stop pot. You know. It was like it was so funny. Did you end up meeting them then or since then? No. We toured with the Dylan years ago, and uh I got to sing on stage with him a couple of times, which was, you know, beyond an honor to say the least. He brought Jeff Tweedy and myself out. We were on tour with Wilco and Dylan, and we we stag with him six or seven times throughout the tour. But never did you see him off stage. You know, he was not. It's like his bus rolls up five minutes before he plays. He walks off this bus on the stage, plays the songs he gets back on the bus and rolls away. You know, that's he's not there at all. He's gone, you know, so just see him like that's that's song. I'm not there right right. It was so crazy. So you're like the only time I've ever seen him was up there on that stage. Wow. It was so wow. Yeah, you just you couldn't walk up with a couple of beers and say hey, hey, why didn't you join us? It was well, that's how they pitched the tour to us like that, and that's why we were so excited about the tour. They were like, Dylan wants to collaborate with some younger vands and like, we'll have you guys, Wilco. And you know, we pictured ourselves like sitting around the camp fire and being like, let's do desire and it's entirety tonight, Bob bells that sound you're like, or like let's write a new song or whatever, you know, and we pictured all this collaboration and all these high jinks and stuff, and we get on tour and it's like he is not there for h you know, for like the first two or three weeks, we didn't even hear anything about any uh, collaborations or anything. And then one day his bass player, Tony walks up to us at dinner and hands us the CD of this Reverend Gary Davis song and he's like, I think Bob wants wants you guys to come sit in with him tonight, you know, and and uh, and we were like wow, you know, just like out of the blue. And then Uh, I had heard this before, but he notoriously likes to change the key, I guess, and I don't know thing about keys or anything, you know. So Jeff and I are like rushing to learn this song before we go play it with him, you know. And we're like backstage with our guitars and we like finally kind of learn it, and literally like ten minutes before we're getting ready to gone, the guitar tech comes back and he's like, oh, I think Bob wants to do it and B flat and stood a D diminished or whatever the original king was. So we're like, oh shit. We run back into catering. We're like using our capos around like trying to figure out it was. I mean, I don't think I've ever been more nervous in my life. It was so funny. Did it come off though I don't know, I don't know. I mean, I who knows. I hope. So he's so fucking cool though, because you look over at him and he I mean talk about gone. I mean that dude is like you look over at Bob and he is not there in the coolest way, you know what I mean, It's like he is. I don't know what where he is or what's going on, but it was inspiring to look over there and see that far away look in his eyes, like in a in an inspiring way, not a not a vacant way, you know. It was like like he you know, for so many of us, he is such a channel, you know, and it's like to see see up see him that close, like it was. It was really beautiful. I am interested that did you were there things about writing to his lyrics that when you were writing the songs and the songs you wrote are they're very different sounding, particularly on the on the on the New Basement tapes, like you really take his songs in kind of different directions. No, one, it doesn't sound like a Bob Dylan tribute album sounds like you really transform them, right, But when you were doing them, where you were going, I see what he did here, I'm gonna do this on my next album. Where there were there tricks you saw or things he did you thought, Okay, that's great, I'm gonna I'm gonna use that. I mean probably subliminally, you know. I mean, there's been so much of his music that's informed and inspired so much of my music. You know. It's like, so I don't think consciously I wrote there's still four or five songs that I wrote and re recorded that didn't get released or whatever. So I wrote eight or nine songs. And after I'm trying to think of what we did after that. I think we did the Waterfall after that. I think maybe one thing that I did learn was just to try and be less precious with things, because that was one thing that is well known about the Basement Tapes is there's so much information, you know, beyond what was released as the original Basement tapes. You know, now there's been box sets released and all the stuff of all the Basement tapes. And then to learn there were this project we did even more lyrics you know, that never got music. And the beautiful thing about it was is you could feel he wasn't being precious about it because some of these lyrics are hilarious, you know, some of them are goofy. Some of them are heartbreakingly crushingly sad. You know, some are the most beautiful poetry you've ever read. And as I went into the future from that, I was like, let's just let it be. You know, this stuff comes from wherever it comes from, and I'm just gonna let something be goofy, or I'm gonna let it be half finished, or I'm gonna let it be complete and beautiful and heartbreaking or monumental, you know, whatever the thing is trying to be, instead of trying to change it too much, I'm just gonna let it be what the universe wants it to be. What's writing like for you? Now? Are you writing currently? I'm always kind of writing, but I've been so bummed during this whole pandemic that it's like I feel like, and I know a lot of people can probably relate to this, I feel like most days you're just trying to keep your head above water, you know, of just like the horror of the current administration and the horror of the political landscape, and you know, hoping that there's a vaccine, you know, hoping all these things. I feel like this is such a time where we're all like just trying to like get through each day. You know, we're doing fine. Has become the new great. You know, if you're doing you're doing fine, that's all you're you're having to all of a day. So a lot of days I don't have the metaphysical energy to work on things, but I'm still collecting. Ideas are coming, and I collect them on my voice memil so I don't forget them so I can work on them. And I've also been going through I've got a lot of older albums that I've made, and I've been working on a lot of older stuff, like trying to finish older stuff. And that's been really healing for me because that's been a different part of my brain. That's like a I can still be productive and creative, but I'm not using this whatever part of your brain you use when you're working on brand new things. If that makes sense, Can you work on old stuff and not be too hypercritical, not look and say, ah, what was I thinking? And I shouldn't have done that? And you know what interested me about waterfalls is is that you just took those songs from five years ago, and you didn't say, you know, we got to fix this. That was why was I doing Anybody else would feel self conscious, but you're like, no, it's what they are. That's the thing. It's all the time machine, you know. It's all for me now to go fix that thing. It's kind of like breaking the space time continuum or whatever. And I'm not even saying you can't or you shouldn't do that, because there are no rules to anything, so people should do whatever they want musically. But for me, that's one of the coolest things about music or a career trajectory is you get these little time machine snapshots of a person over all these years. So the person I was when I made the waterfall a completely different person, you know. And I was a heartbroken person and all this energy that's so different. And I'm literally you know, they say your cells regenerate every seven years or whatever, so you're literally a completely different person physically too. But it's interesting because I have this record I made years ago, like in nineteen ninety eight or something that I made with one of my buddies who's now passed away, and actually Patrick from my Morning Jacket played drums on it, and it's been sitting there forever, and for years I've just been like, there's so much I like about it, but you know, it's real, not recorded that well, and there's a lot of mistakes and YadA YadA, YadA, and I'm like, oh jeez, Louise. But just recently I was like, I'm just just gonna finish this fucking thing and just let it be as it was. You know, it's like here it is. If you like it, great, if you don't great, you know, it doesn't matter. It's just like it's fun. It's fun for me to like feel this cool old time machine because back then I was obsessed with it. I love it was like, I fucking it was all I could think about. You. Also, you've done a couple of interesting things, because you know, I tend to think of you as like a you're a rock guy, so you're thinking of guitar licks and solos and lyrics. But you did this this great cover of the Brian Wilson song I just Wasn't made for these times, and you you sampled an old Isaac Hayes song for it that's kind of like almost a hip hop mentality. It's like a collage. You're putting things together there. Do you do a lot of that kind of experimentation too? Oh yeah, I mean I've always loved sampling and uh, I mean, if you think about it, everything sampling. You know, if you play a C and a G chord, how many fucking people have played C and G chords before you or whatever? You know, it's it's all, yeah, you don't know if you talk to their lawyers though, that's the well, yeah that is true. But but it's interesting though, when you think about the way that like literal sampling started just as a necessity or whatever. You know, it's like people started looping these passages so they could speak their mind and speak their lyrics over this passage because they didn't have a guitar, or they didn't you know whatever, they didn't have a drum kit, so they had a recorded drum kit that they could loot, you know, from an old James Brown record or whatever. And it's like the I just wasn't made for these times. Thing was so cool because I had written liner notes for a reissue of Hot Buttered Soul, and when I did that, they sent me stems from a lot of my favorite stacked songs, like they sent me the swims from a Hot Buttered Soul and from what you see is what you get, and like several snack songs. So when whenever I had heard, I was obsessed with Hot Buttered Soul for years. Like to me, Hot Buttered Soul is like Dark Side of the Moon in its scope and psychedelic landscape yet orchestral as It's just a phenomenal record. And whenever I would hear by the time I get to Phoenix, I would in my mind, I'd always start singing I just wasn't made for these times for some reason. I don't know why. I just that would always happen for me, because there's a large lead up. By the time I get to Phoenix is like nineteen minutes long, and the first eight minutes is just Isaac Hay's talking over this single organ note in this tinging high hat or whatever. And in my mind, whenever we would listen to that record, I would kat looking for you know, I would sing the Beach Boys song, and when I got the stems, I was like, oh fuck, I can like make this into the Beach Boys song. It was so cool. Are you gonna be one of those stem collectors now, like quest love, because because that's a deep habit. Oh my god. Yeah, all the stems that you find whenever. I mean I'm not like obsessed like looking for it, but whenever somebody sends me something, or you get to hear the stems of your favorite records, you know, like like what's going on? Like the stems to that. I mean when you get to hear Marvin Gays isolated vocal and you're there in the vocal booth with him hearing his like feet scratch around or hearing him adjust to headphones or whatever. You know, all this shit that's in your song that you don't hear, it's all subliminal because it's all mixed in there. But when you get to hear that ship or hear like James Jamerson's Baseline isolated or the strings like it is, mind blow. Does the world miss the sort of big albums like you mentioned, Hotbuttered Soul, What's going On, Dark Side of the Moon. Whether people like that music or not, they were just big. They took up a lot of room. You kind of couldn't get around them if you if you were alive and listening to the radio. You knew what those were. You know, Otis Redding's Blue, Sergeant Pepper, whatever album, you know, rumors, whatever you want to say, Is there something about those that were missing now in the world those kind of big statements. No, No, I think there's so many bands making so many great records, so much amazing music right now. I think the only thing that people don't realize is that back then they were like a couple of mirrors through which almost everybody saw music, you know, And with the Internet, it's like somebody took a hammer and shattered the mirrors into thousands of pieces. So now it's not as easy to have a cultural moment. You know, we don't get these cultural moments anymore because everybody's all fragmented, and it's like, you like indie dance pop, then you're fragmented into this mirror shard. Or you like hip hop, you're over here, you know, And it's like, and there are those of us who are trying to look at all of the shards because we love all types of music. But I feel like grunge was maybe the last era, or that era or even slightly after that was like there there were these moments of galvanized albums like a clemini by Outcast or you know, just like whatever, even Nirvana, Nevermind or whatever, Michael Jackson's Thriller or what. You know, these these moments of like albums that were like not only were they artistic in mind expanding, but they're also phenomenally commercially successful. You know that. That's where I think we don't see that anymore because everything's shattered and albums sales have been stolen from artists. So now it's like they're still artists making statements and making incredible music, but it's all it's like you have to find it in this sea of sea of illusions, you know, and it's like and you have to find it on your your phone or your fucking computer. And I know I'm sick of screens, you know, but we kind of have to use them, especially during the pandemic. I'm I'm grateful for them. Okay, what's next for you? I don't know. I mean, I hope, God, isn't it wild. I have no idea, you know, I just hope to be a lot. You know. It's like I hope that we're all free, you know. I hope that we're all working towards equality. I hope we all can somehow managed to all get healthcare. I hope we can all stay safe and healthy and not get this fucking virus. I hope that a cure or a treatment or whatever comes soon so we can all get back out there and enjoy life the way it's meant to be enjoyed, you know, and like and like people are saying, I really believe, let's not go back to normal, you know, let's go forward. Okay. When you think about the future and you think about getting up on stage when this is all over and there's a crowd in front of you, what's the song you're gonna play? Wow, that's a great, great funt. I don't know, because there's so many songs we haven't played, you know, there's so many songs we have played, and there's so many songs we haven't I mean, by the time that happens, I don't I don't know. I mean, we've already got a whole new Jacket record and we've got this new Waterfall two things. So we've already got like two whole records full of music that that we have never played. Gosh, I don't know. It's it's gonna be a very overwhelming moment. But I've also realized that I think we all tend to think in terms of these kind of yes or no moments, like and I've realized it's not going to be that way, because it's gonna be a slow trickle back in. As I realized the other day when I played this rally, it's like whenever my morning Jackie gets to play a concert again, it's not gonna be you know, nine thousand screaming people at Red Rocks. It's gonna be socially distanced. Everybody's kind of scared coming back in. You know, there's some masks, there's a you know, wherever it is, it's outdoor. It's gonna be a gradual thing where I feel like we're all gonna have to hold each other's hands back into this thing, you know, and yeah, move slowly back in, you know, because people are fucking broke too, and every band's going to be coming back on the road, you know. And so you've got every band coming back on the road, and you're broke. You know, It's it's Thursday night in Oklahoma City and fucking five of your favorite bands are in town. You know, what do we do. You know, we've got to be flexible with the idea of ticketing and prices, and you know, hopefully we can have some kind of sliding scale system in place so people with no money can come to the show. It's gonna be nuts. I guess you're like anybody else. You need a plan for reopening. Totally listen. It's been fantastic talking to you. It's been just wonderful. It's a great record. Thank you so much for it. Thank you, and thank you for talking and best of luck with everything you too. Thanks so much. Thanks to jim James for recording songs for us and catching us up on everything he's been up to while in quarantine. You can hear our favorite my Morning Jacket in Jimmy James Songs on a playlist at broken record podcast dot com. Be sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel at YouTube dot com slash broken Record Podcast. There you can find extended cuts of new and old episodes. Broken Record is produced with help from Leah Rose, Jason Gambrel, Martin Gonzalez, Eric Sandler, and his executive Produced by mil Lobell. Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries and if you like our show, please remember to share, rate, and review us on your podcast. Dad A theme musics by Kenny Beats. I'm justin Richmond bass