Missy Elliott

00:00:15 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hey, y'all, today, we have one of the great innovators in popular music ever on the show. And I don't say that lightly, Missy Misdemeanor Elliott. This year is the twenty fifth anniversary of Missy's certified classic debut album, Super Dupa Fly. When that album first dropped, Missy's unconventional rhyme scheme and unique flavor, paired with her childhood friend Timberland's futuristic production, set a precedent for what was creatively possible in hip hop, and throughout her career, Missy's maintained that level of playful creativity. You can hear it on her slew of radio hits like get Your Freak On, Work It, Lose Control, and definitely on her album cuts. As of this year, Missy has more platinum albums than any other female rapper. Of course, Missy can also flex as a producer and songwriter. She's the first female rapper to be inducted into the Songwriters Hall of Fame, having written songs from Mariah Carey, Beyonce, Destiny's Child, and of course Aliyah's biggest hits One in a Million and If Your Girl Only Knew Today. Rick Rubin talks to Missy Elliott about her wide reaching influence and creative process. She explains what it was like writing for Eliah, who was one of the first artists to embrace Missy and Timberland's unique style. She also talks about why she and Timberland made a pact not to listen to any other music while recording her debut. This is broken record liner notes for the Digital Age. I'm justin Richmond. Here's Rick Rubin and Missy Elliott. Hello, Hello, what, I'm Laddie. Hello. What have you been listening to these days? To be honest, nothing. Do you not listen to music regularly? Well, you know it's weird because I do listen to a lot of a lot of music, but a lot of it. I catch it when I catch it, especially when I'm starting to work on stuff. I go into this place of not listening to anything. And that's how, you know, pretty much started. When I first started, me and Tim just like not listening. You know, we were forbidden to listen to other people's stuff or watch videos, and I think in a crazy way, that ended up working in our favor because we didn't see nor hear, so we ended up creating a sound that we didn't know we were creating. We just didn't know what was hot, so we didn't know it was hot to mimic it. And I think that always works because then it allows you to not be so afraid to try something new because you don't know what's hot out there to know if yours is too far or not enough. What about listening to classics? Yeah, no, I know, people get in my car and feel like day in the eighties and the nineties because I'm gonna always play those joys, like those classics, the timeless records will always stay in my car. I know. My little cousins hated know, they hate it. They be like, don't you got don't you got the TikTok those? Nah, But listen to this, Listen to this one twelve record. It's just something about it that warms my heart for whatever reason. What was the music playing in your house when you were growing up? Was their music in your house when you were growing up? Oh? Yeah. So the funny thing about when I was growing up, my mother was into gospel and my father was into R and B, which you know in the gospel world they say worldly music. So I had the best of both worlds, because I had my mother playing gospel records and and then you know, my father would be playing Marvin Gay, Prince Michael. Then he would go to minute work, I remember whipp It, you know, Grace Jones or whatever like he So it was Gospel on one side and R and B on the other side. Did your parents listen to each other's music? Did your dad like the gospel and did your mom like the R and B? No? Absolutely not. That's probably why they didn't stay together. No, my mother was really in the gospel, and I would be in my room and I'm the only child, so you they would turn the music up on both ends. And when you come from a gospel world, you know, hearing R and B and especially Marvin Gay's sexual healing, it's like what you know, my mom was not having it, and my father didn't want to hear the gospel either, so they it was like a DJ contest that for whatever reason, it felt like that. Do you feel like you were more influenced by hearing the R and B or the gospel? I was influenced by both. I think I learned harmonies by listening to the gospel. I think I learned feeling by listening to the gospel. Something about gospel music just has a conviction when you hear the singers. The R and B side, there was a sauce that that I learned from that and lyrical content love, you know, heartache, what's going on in the world, And so I think God I had the best of both. A matter of fact, I know I did in a weird way, being in the middle in the in my room hearing both sides, I was absorbing both like a sponge at the time. Did you like them both when you were a kid? Do you remember liking them both as a kid? I feel like I did like them both, because you know church, you go to church. You're going to church Wednesday for prayer meeting, Thursday for choir rehearsal Sunday. You know, you just it's like church, church, church, church. So you had no choice but to like that. And I liked it anyway because I just come from a spiritual family. The R and B side I loved like I stayed in the mirror memoryking these artists, and I would get in the mirror and I would make up these speeches that you know, I was at the awards thinking Michael and Janet. I hadn't even met these people yet. I you know, it was like, thank you, Madonna for letting me write records for you. I hadn't met none of them, and I was constantly doing that in front of my doll babies. So it was something about that that I knew I was gonna go in that direction. Were your parents supportive of your interest in music or did they laugh at you for, you know, thinking this is what you were going to do. By the time I decided to become an artist, my mother and father had separated. My mother was trying to get me in the military, and I was like, I can't even walk from here to the car without getting tired. I know, you don't expect me to go and nobody's navy or army and be running for my dear life, you know. So they in my family they didn't take me serious because in Virginia at that time, artist wasn't going through Virginia like that, you know, maybe a show here there, It wasn't like it is now. So it was hard to believe that I'm gonna go away and I'm gonna be famous. But I have been saying that since I was a little girl, like I remember in kindergarten. Every Friday, the teacher would ask what we want to be, and I would listen to the kids saying, I'm gonna be a fireman, I'm gonna be a policeman, I'm gonna be a teacher, and I'm gonna be a doctor. And they come around to me and I'm like, I'm gonna be a superstar in a whole class with just bust out laughing, and I never wavered. Every Friday I said the same thing, and they laughed every Friday, And I always wanted to do those kids remember me because I remember them, I remember them well. But yeah, my family they didn't think that that could happen, and they didn't think it was best for me because they I think they thought that I would be naive and go out there and be willing out and get on all kind of situations that I had no business, So they didn't think it was good for me at first. Tell me about growing up in Virginia. Just tell me about Virginia a little bit. Describe the place you grew up in the area Virginia. I grew up in Portsmouth, Virginia, and everybody knew everybody. Small town feeling, yes, very small town. Like you know in New York, you may run into somebody and you may never see them ever again. In life in Virginia, you're going to no matter whether you're from Virginia, Beach Hampton, Rose, Newport News, Suffolk, Norfolk, in those places, you're going to run into them again. And you know, in Virginia everybody is just like family. You know, I remember time where we used to we can't do that now, but we used to go up to each other house and just knock on the screen door and be like coming in. We didn't lock our doors, and you know, we all played together and it just was a fun place growing up. Was it more like the country or was it more like the suburbs? Would you say Portsmouth was country? We had the dirt roads. Yeah, yeah, like we had the dirt roads like mad Woods, and yeah, we didn't see we didn't see like paved roads like that. And I and were I used to stay in a place called pews Bill and we didn't see that for a long time. Like our roads were very rocky now where Tim and for Real is from, they were kind of like the upscale in Virginia Beach, so they might have had paid roles in Portsmouth. Nah, we when coming up, we had a lot of dirt roads. I've only been in Virginia Beach one time, and that was to visit Teddy Riley in his studio back a while Bure. I think it was Future Records. Yes, do you know I love Teddy? When I tell you I love Teddy? And my group went to Teddy and sung for him like we were so scared. We used to drive past his studio all the time, and we finally got up the nerve to go to his studio and sing, and it was maybe like five of us and we sang and he was like, I see five of y'all, but I only hear two part harmony, like no, and he didn't sign us. I was like, oh my god, I like it was like starting all over again because we had spent so much time working up the nerve to finally go to his studio because we used to always drive past it see all of these fly cars, and finally got in there and he was like, I see five of y'all, but I only heard two far How old were you at that time? Do you remember? Um? We had to been nineteen. How much did you record with the group. Oh, we did a whole album. Yeah. I used to be in a group called Sister, which was signed to Jodicee and we were signed under Sylvia Ron and Sylvia Roone let DeVante label go, which means we got dropped two any anybody that was under him, and then she came back and signed me as a solo artist. Yeah. We always me and her always joke about that and it's like you dropped me and then you signed me. It all worked out. It all worked out. When the group ended, was it clear that you were gonna do solo as opposed to either continue with the group or put together a new group. I had no clue I was gonna ever go solo. So the story behind that is I was in the group, we got signed, We went to a Joe to See show, and we performed for Dalvin, and then Dalvin made us perform for Casey. Casey made us perform for Jojo, and then we ended up performing for Devonte and so he said, Hey, you know, I'm gonna sign y'all. I'm gonna fly y'all up to New York next week. We didn't believe him, but he really did, and so I signed with him and I kept telling him, Hey, you know, I got this guy and he does all of our music and I'm telling you he is amazing and his name is DJ Timmy Tim, and he was like, I don't care who he is. He say, you know me, and I'll be sure, are gonna do you all album? And I said, please, please, you know, bring him up here? Can I please bring him up here? And I begged and begged until he finally bought Tim. And then once Tim came, I said, hey, I got another friend. His name is Magoo. I promise he is so dope. He was like, you're not gonna bring everybody from Virginia, and so I got them up there. So I ended up leaving and I was the first one to leave, and I didn't know where I was going. I didn't know what I was going to do. I had no plans or nothing. It was a scary thing because you know, mind you my family had already thought this, this was a bad idea. So I go somewhere and now I'm back at the crib. I'm home and it's like, oh, what are you doing here? I thought she was going away to be a star and I'm like, no, I'm back. But before any of that, Magoo introduced me to Timp, So I know I'm going backwards. But we were in high school and Magool I always asked him, like, I don't even remember how I met Magoo, but it's so crazy. He Magoo ended up giving me the name Misdemeanor because he said it was a crime for one to have as many talents as I had, and I stuck with that name, and he was just like, hey, I got this guy. And he actually didn't introduce Tim to me for work. It was really for us to just hang out. And so I went to Tim's house and he was a j He didn't even understand his gift that he had, and when I got there, he was just you know, scratching and stuff. He was dope as a DJ too, And then he started He had a little Cassio keyboard and he started playing on the Cassio keyboard and I don't know if you remember Cassio's back then they had the little dog sounds, and this is where I believe all of this sounds came from in the songs, because the Cassio had those like front and me just like animal sounds, and he found a genius way to make beats with that stuff in it. And he really at the time wasn't calling himself a producer at all. And he one day he was just doing a beat on the cassio and I started rapping, and he was like, Yo, that's crazy. And I remember all of us being in the room and it's just going just rapping. I went from rapping and singing, rapping and singing, and he just kept doing beats and then McGoo would come in and we was having a cipher and you know, we just this was something that this was our pastime. Yeah, at the time, we didn't think, oh, we're gonna go on to make records. We just was having fun. And every day after school, me and McGoo would get together and we started going to Tim's house and just started doing records and we were recording from tape that to take that. I don't know if you remember how people recording like that until the song sounded real fuzzy and muffled, But yeah, we was recording like that. Yes, yes, So if people don't people don't don't under the artists these days, They they don't realize how good they got it. I said, I have these reels in my house and I'm trying to get them converted over And I say, these artists don't even realize these reels, what these reels was like, cutting them and all the stuff is crazy. It's funny now looking back, like it's easy now. But there was something about the limitations that we had back them that forced us to make more interesting things, you know, just forced forced you to be creative. Yes, absolutely, because when you think about those reels, when you think about tape recording from tape that, the tape that like I always wonder who came up with that? Like who thought to do that? And to be able to I was able to put harmonies that way without us even having a studio. It's so crazy. And you've worked with Tim from the beginning throughout your career pretty much. Yes, oh yeah, from that day, that first day of going to Tim's house, and his dad hated when that doorbell would ring because his dad, I think, drove trucks and so he would be driving late at night and he would just be fussing, like y'all got the go, y'all gotta get out of it, making all that boom bab I got to drive like he would be fussing us out, but we we were so and we were so intrigued. It's so crazy when I tell you, I think back to just the beginning, like the first song that I ever heard, because I heard him. I've seen an interview with him not too long ago, and he was like, you know, Missy taught me so much. And it's funny because I learned so much just from the first song. I remember Donna Summer Last Dance, and and I said, at a young age, I was so intrigued at the structure of that record, and like, I was like, what made her start this slow? Yeah, it starts slow and then it turns into a dance song and you're not expecting it to turn into a dance song. Yeah, Like and I and at a young age, that intrigued me that I hadn't heard a record do that. And till this day, that is a structure that I always say. It was just so amazing to me. That was the first record that caught my attention. So I always gravitated to things that probably people wouldn't have paid attention to. But then when we by the time I met Tim and we started getting into hip hop really crazy. Well, I was in the hip hop before I met Tim, because you know, I'm quite sure he was into it too. Round junior high school, we were you know, in the UTFO Run DMC days. But by that time we was in the Public Enemy when I met Tim, and everything was Chuck d like and play, everything was yeah boy, And we would just sit and listen to the eight oh eights and stuff that they would have in their records, in the breakbeats that they would use in Public Enemy records, and we were just always so so amazed. Then, you know, we were most definitely in the tribe. And I always used to say, Magoo, you sound just like Q Tip. Everybody tell me that. So those days really shaped us to just in in the whole hip hop culture. Like we were so heavy, heavy, heavy heavy into it. We'll be right back after the break with more from Missy Elliott and Rick Rubin. We're back with more from Missy Elliott. Tell me about Tim as a person, Tim timber Lad. First he was DJ Timmy Timber So he was so quiet, a quiet genius. And what I always say about Tim Ann for real just amazed me in two different ways. Tim because he didn't play. He went off a feeling when he created music. Somebody that went to school probably would technically say these sounds put together are wrong, this is not in the correct key. But he because he went off a feeling if it was right, it was wrong, but it was right and it was new and it was new. Yeah, and you know, we really showed people how to wrap and sing over a catenance that hadn't existed before us. That cadence was so off two people. I remember One in a Million was hard to get played because they were saying a lot of people were saying a lot of the program directors were saying that they couldn't mix it in or blend it in with the record before it or after because of the rhythm of it. And it was weird because although it was so slow, it still made you bounce in the weirdest way. Like all the songs that we did just had this bounce, even if they were slow records. So I think that's the genius in that is that sometimes it's not just about just being technical, because I've had people who are amazing technically, but the feeling is not there. And so that's why I think Tim was always so great at what he did because he went off a feeling it felt right. It's amazing that there was a time that that was too unusual to you know, to go on the radio when it had so much of an effect in all music that came after it. Tell me the story of that song from the beginning. First time you heard the beat. I was out working with seven or two and Tim called me and was like, hey, you know, we got this opportunity to do something on Aliyah. Now you know, we still knew like nobody really knows who we are. So when me and Tim got together, I'm like, Tim, you know what we're gonna do because she was already a superstar, So I'm like, Yo, let's just give her our old sound. Nobody never heard it, so it'll be like a new sound because we that sound was probably four years old to us, wow, because we had been signed and no, you know, we the stuff didn't come out, so we have been on that way, that that whole rhythm, and I said, let's just give her that. So Tim was like you show him? Like yeah, like dude, that you know, we were still in a place of we didn't know what was hot or not all we knew was what we did. Yeah, you know this, this this is hot, not knowing it was really hot, but it was hot to us because that's all we had been hearing the song. The song was already written. I mean I played it for after I had demo the vocals, so because that's me at the again and saying love, love you baby, Me and Tim went in and recorded it and then I played her you know, the version with my vocals on it, and she loved it and she got it immediately, which when I think about it, it just shows that she was aligned with us musically anyway, because we had to show people how to sing and wrap over something that, like I said, that hadn't existed before. People didn't know where to place this music. They didn't know whether to go to the R and B and hip hop or to the pop. They didn't know where to place it. But she got it immediately. But that actually wasn't the first record that she did. The first record she did was if Your Girl Only Knew And even for her to get that record and it went were only supposed to do one record on Aliah, and it went from one to two to three to four to five, like it just kept going Wow. And she took a chance because she was Aliah already to the world, you know, she had the chance to be able to work with any major producer out there. And here we were two young kids coming in with nothing really under our belts, and she just was like, I love what y'all doing. And she just kept recording each record that we would do. She be like, I want that one, I want that one. Yeah, I love that, and she did it. Typically when you would write for someone else, would it typically happen like that you would write it through a demo of the whole song and then present it to the artist or was it ever more collaborative than that. No. I always wrote it and always demoed it, and then I started as time went on, I started to get I would write it and then I would get Jasmine or Tweet or somebody to demo for me. But actually, the one person I did have demo early on on one song was Gina Thompson. She demoed I Care for You for Aliah. But yeah, I would just go in there and write the songs and then demo it. And then I was not like I didn't I didn't consider myself like a singer. Singer like that, I wasn't giving you no Whitney Houston notes, and so by me not being a singer, I would just kind of rap singing. That's how if you listen to one in a million, it's like rap singing because I wasn't a person who could do all of those runs and stuff like that. So I would just rap sing songs and it just ended up being a new kind of rhythm too. Have you ever written a song for someone else? Have they not do it and then you end up doing it yourself? Has it ever happened? No, I've never written a song for someone else and then I ended up doing it. I always ended up giving it to someone else. Yeah, Because for me, I'm so critical on myself. Like that's probably been the hardest thing for me is once I do it for the artists, I have them in mind or an artist in mind, and not me, because I know when I do stuff for myself, it's always like some weird and crazy stuff. So I know that those artists probably be like, oh nah, you bugging. So I've never taken a record that I had for somebody else and use it on myself. So when you say critical of yourself in that way. Let's let's I want to understand it better. Is it that the song's not good enough for you, or that it doesn't suit your personality, or if there's a song that you think is great but that it's not right for you that you wrote. What's the thought process? Well? Me, as the artist, I do stuff so differently for myself that a lot of times it's so like out there, I couldn't imagine you know, somebody else saying, uh, don't don't. Don't you know I could something I said and working. I couldn't imagine somebody else saying some of the stuff that that I've said, not to say they wouldn't, but I just know like stuff that is more suitable for me. So when I do those records, they're more tamed down than what I would do for myself, because for myself, I'm taking a chance. I'm just like, you know, I'm gonna say whatever. You know, I'm gonna say she's a bit, I'm gonna say pussy don't fail me now and sing it. And you know, these artists will probably be like now, Missy, I do many things, but that nah. So I'm just different as the artist yes, So your records tend to be more extreme, and you could say lyrically harder or more challenging or crazier. It wouldn't feel right to give someone else a song like that expecting them to do it. Yes, even to this day, like it's a few artists that probably would do it's just because I say, yo, I'm telling you it's gonna go. It's hot. But for the most part, I'm taking more of a risk on myself. So those records that I do for other artists, once I do them, I just say, hey, this will go to somebody, but just not me. Who was the first artist that you or the first group of artists that you looked up to and felt like, this is my inspiration, this is what I want to do. Who were the people that got you to want to do it? Oh, so many artists. The gospel I would have to say to Clark's sisters, as far as R and B, Prince, Michael Janet. When you come to you know, hip hop, I would go back to Rock, Sand Queen, Latifa, Light, Salt and Pepper. The reason I started rapping l L. Big Daddy King, Public Enemy Mony all you know, all of the hip hop mothers and fathers of this thing. I would say, to be honest, like the whole nineties for me, early nineties really just like inspired me. But the eighties also because I feel like the eighties people were experimental with music. But Salt and Pepper is the reason that I started rapping. They are most definitely the reason. We have to take a quick break, but we'll be right back with more from Missy Elliott and Rick Rubin. We're back with the rest of Rick Rubin's conversation with Missy Elliott. Tell me about your writing process. How does it start? What's the first thing that happens my writing process. A lot of times I could be riding down the street thinking of something I listened to a lot of my friends problems. Sometimes I'm just sitting and listening to a conversation and just pick up ideas and listen to what they going through. And then I'll get a track. And sometimes I'll already sing melodies in my now that I you know, we can do that on our phones. I'll sing melodies on my note thing on my phone before there's even to beat. Yes, And then once I get a track, you know, I can adjust it to whatever track it is. Once I have the words and somewhat of a melody, I can adjust it to what ever track. Is it all about the words or could it be about the phrasing or the melody? Oh, sometimes it's depending on what the vibe is. Sometimes, you know, music, you may hear a track, and I believe music speaks to you, you know, and kind of tells you. You can hear a record, and you may hear a track and to say, oh, these sounds like sound like sexy chords and make you want to, you know, sing a song about sex. Or you may hear a song and it sounds like a motivational chords. I believe chords really do give you a place of feeling. But a lot of times when I'm just walking, sometimes I walk in the mountain and I'll just think of a melody. So the melody for me a lot of times be first, because I sometimes I'll get get on the mic and I'll just hum some stuff and then the lyrics account I honestly was like I had to just do an album where I'm just humming a bunch of gibberish just to show this is how most people. A lot of people create that way. Have you ever written a song with another person, like sitting together looking at each other and writing a song together, or it's always each person does their own thing. Last year was the first time in my whole career that I have collapsed with a writer. I have written every last one of minds, every last one of anybody else's I've done, and at some point, you know, you just feel like, hey, it's good to just have a some freshness come in. You can't. At ninety years old, I'm still talking about to write Unfender right for Cardivfenna, right for for for Beyonce. Like you gotta know when when it's like okay, it's okay, you know, to bring in help because I've I've done this, well another five years it to be thirty years. Yeah, twenty five is a good number. Twenty five is a great number. And congratulations on the anniversary of the first solo album. That's an incredible milestone. Uh and and a funny thing when I tell you that album. We did that album in two weeks, and we did it because I wanted to have my own record label so bad. And Sylvia Rone said, the only way that I'll give you a record label is if you give me an album, give me one album. And I was like, Tim, come on, let's get her to album so I can get this label. So we did it out of like hurrying up, like I really wanted the label so bad, and because at that time, I remember I had left and went back home, so I didn't want to be an artist anymore. And so we did it so quick. It was two weeks and I was like here and from that album it went on to the next album, the next album, the next album. But initially it was just like I just wanted the label. So that's how that album came about. Fasten it. So in some ways, when you took a break in two thousand and five, it's almost like you that's how you wanted it to be from the beginning, and then just other stuff happened. Yeah, that's amazing, that's amazing. I love doing both, but I'm very shy it hall though it may not seem like it because I get to talking, but I'm very shy. So so people have to understand, like I started it in a group, so to go from a group to a solo artists, you have to mentally already know that that's what you wanted to do, and that's not something that I came in this thing thinking. So I ended up being a solo artist and everything you feel like everything is on you. Now you don't have you know, other people that you could talk to when things go crazy. And then you know, the second album became more stressful the first album. I always tell people, you are at your most vulnerable, like you know, you don't care is you don't have nothing to compare it to. It's that second album that is going to give you that headache because if your first album is successful, then you're chasing trying to find the success of whatever records you put out that made that album go. You're trying to find that same style for that second album, and it just feel like, oh my god, like nothing is right. And I didn't even appreciate my second album until later and realized that actually that album was a masterpiece because we used a lot of theatrical loops and stuff in that album mixed with hip hop. But I didn't I at that time. It was just like that was that was a had to think that second album because it's scary. You know, it is a thing called sophomore jinks. Yeah, for sure, I didn't want to be an artist, but now I'm in it, and so now I gotta make sure I don't fail the second album. So that was hard, but it worked out. Yeah, yeah, it most definitely, most definitely worked out. By the time my third album, we was having fun again. But I remember the third album we were finished where I didn't think we were finished, and him, he was like, I'm telling you, this album is solid. I was like, na, something is missing and he was like, man, he was. So he was so mad at me because I say, no, something is missing. So I say, just see what else you got in the keyboard. So he got on the ASR ten and he started going down a thing and he hit hit one of the things and it was like dud. And I'm like, yo, that was it. And he was like what because now he going so fast up and down the keyboard he can't find it no more. So now he even more mad because I'm like, yo, I'm telling you, I know what I heard. So he hitting the keyboard all hard because he ready to go like He's like, what it ain't in here? I don't know what you're talking about. So he finally hits it again and I'm like that, and I'm like, that joint is crazy. So when I rapped on it, it was only that sound and a kick. Wow, Because that's how tim A lot of times we would do stuff. He would you know, it would just be like one sound and a kick, and then after I finished rapping, he would go and place all the other things around it, and so that's where you got all the spacey noise and stuff so good. That was a really common practice in the early days of hip hop to leave a really long instrumental at the end so that other people could wrap over it themselves. Yeah, and you know, just me sitting there listening actually to it just speaks to the genius in Timberline too. Again is the fact that he would make hip hop those records. He would treat them like R and B records if you really like when you get a chance to go back and listen, he was placing strings in different sounds. He was having a separation. It wasn't just a flat beat straight through, so he would add different sounds, Like every four bars he would put in another sound. When the hooks came, it would be strings. And he would do that to a lot of his records. Absolutely, they never get boring. You never just get used to the groove. It always feels like even if you're not paying attention. Like it really became clear after the vocals, all the changes that were going on in the music, because they're subtle, you know, they don't make you listen to them, but they have an effect on your subconscious that it feels like it's always evolving, it's always new. Yeah, especially when yeah, when you get to that that end and you see how he starts to break it down. That's I always say that too in that record, Is that your chick? He does that heavily in there too, But most of the records he did that. So when just listening now because I never like listen to the end, made me just realize he treated those records like you would treat R and B record. Would you say that spirituality plays a role in your music, Oh, spirituality plays a role in Missy period. In this industry, If I didn't have some kind of spiritual connection, I don't know how I could have made it. You know, in this in this industry, a lot of artists come in, uh, just thinking it's going to be You're gonna make a lot of money. You're gonna be famous. You know, you're gonna be hot forever in all of these different things. You know, that's that's what you come in thinking, and then you realize, oh, you've been duped. You know. I always tell people you will you you won't be hot forever. You can always have respect, though, because it will come a time where even the hottest of the hottest won't be sitting at the top of the charts anymore. But you the impact and respect will always be there. But spiritually you have to have some you know. For me, I feel like I had to have some kind of connection because when those times come, of those ups and downs like that, you have to be able to you know, I come from a praying family, so being that, I feel like God gonna work it out. If I didn't have that, I don't know how I would be able to manage. Because there has been way ups and then there has been way downs. And that's a lot, especially if you're coming from way up, you know, and a lot of artists. People don't prepare artists for that, and that's you know a lot of times where you may get a lot of artists deal with mental health issues because they came in and nobody prepared them for those different ups and downs, regardless of what's hot and what's not hot, and or even doing it professionally. Do you feel like on any given day you could write a song that you would love, you could always do that. Is that something that you feel confident in or is that moving target? Would you say, Oh, I feel like I'm gonna always make some joints that I love. That's you know, I always feel like that that that I haven't wavered from. Now whether the people feel the same, if a whole another you know, you just don't know. That's the problem. They just might not know exactly. Yeah, you know, you don't know what the people will will feel. But I always say I'd rather do something that I believe in and if it don't work, then I can still sleep good, opposed to do something that let's say, if the label say hey, this is the one and I don't feel like that, and then it don't work and I'm kicking myself in the ass for the rest of my life. So you know, a lot of times, if I do something and if it don't work, I'll just be like, hey, maybe this you know, I do understand and not to be bragging, but some people are ahead, and I do understand that some things may be ahead. Yeah. Yeah, that's that's part of what makes you you, and that's why you're in the role that you're in, and that's why you You were very early in the movement and you just you felt it early. Yeah, I'm sure not everybody felt it at the time that you felt it. Oh absolutely not. I remember like when I did She's a Bitch, And remember Puff hitting me like money, what are you doing? When he's seen that ball ahead? He was like, what your money? What are you doing? So so you know, at that time, we didn't even think like, like the way we are now, we're probably more open to just playing stuff and seeing what people think. We didn't do that. Then we came in saying, okay, this is gonna be the first single and then we're gonna come with this. We we wasn't playing it for somebody to tell us if it was hot or not. We was playing it because we thought it was hot, exactly. And as time went on, your confidence can either build or you know, it could stagger, or it could just go to nothing. And I think as time went on, we probably started to ask people. But then I got to a point that I'm just like, nah, I just want to do music that feels good to me, and I've done it, you know, just like you, you are legendary, legendary at this point, you're probably doing it like I'm just having fun. There was a time where you may have felt like you was concentrating on making this kind of music or timeless, or you're not even thinking like that now, like i'd improve myself what I'm having fun. I'm going to take two spoons and hit on this trash can and throw this out because it feels good to me right now. While you you have proven yourself time and time again. And what's the use of doing music if you can't have fun with it? Absolutely, I've always tried to make music that I like and never question what anyone else is going to think, because I can't. I can't imagine what anyone else is gonna think. And at least if I'm true to what I like, at least I know some one person likes it. You know, It's better than making something that maybe nobody likes like I'm making the things that I like and I care about that. That's all I could do absolutely. I said, just think if there was one person in the room, if I always say Michael and Quincy or whoever else was in that room when they were creating thriller, they all had to be aligned in the same space because if one person had been like, what is close to midnight? Some evil is? What kind of song is this? It could have threw them all the way off and made them trash that record. But they was all aligned in that room where they had to be like visually, they was in the same place. I see it, I hear it. This is gonna be huge. And those are the type of people that I try to, you know, keep around, not just yes ma'am people. You know, if it's something that is truly whack, I want my friends to be like yo, absolutely absolutely, Otherwise you're living in a world of not reality, Like you have no idea. It's like, I want to make something that I like it. If someone else doesn't like it, it's cool, but I want to know if they don't like it. It's just so I understand the world, you know, right right? But yeah, I mean, you're such a legend and people dream to get to that place, and you have an impeccable ear. So I know that. You know, when when you have an ear like that, you would have to be one hundred and twenty for anybody to be like, nah, if you was to say even at ninety, you'll be like, nah, that ain't it. I'm gonna believe me. But I feel I feel like you're exactly the same. We've both been doing it long enough where we you know, it's like it's obvious, we know what we're doing. It's okay. Yeah, yeah. I almost definitely probably had a few producers mad at me when I'd be like, Nah, that ain't it. That means that means you care and you're honest, you know, like that's your That's part of the job too. It's not just going along with it. Yeah, you know, especially in this time when you've been around for so long. But then you you may get some young, younger ones that come in and be like, nah, you don't know what you're talking about. This, I'm telling you this, This what everybody listened to. And that's the That's the great thing about I think what we have done is we created something in yourself that hadn't been done, and so you are in a position to be able to say that because you wasn't following what everybody else was doing. And if you can teach any upcoming producers like hey, you know you stand out because at the end of the day, you don't want it to be five of you's, because they if you got five of you's, then most of the time the label gonna go with the cheapest one anyway, So you you better hope you the cheap one because otherwise you're not gonna be picked like you. It's gonna be easy for them to go with the one that is, you know, popping right now. So you better off just trying to do something that will be game changing and game changing. You don't get a lot of those, like you can count those. It ain't a lot of game changes, It's true. Thank you so much for speaking to me. This was beautiful. I thank you and hopefully we will see each other. But it's been fun and I appreciate you. Just know that you are legendary and will continue to be and it was an honor speaking to you. If the honor is all mine, thank you so much, and we speak soon and hopefully I get to see you and give you a big hug and thank you for personally, Yes, well, you enjoy yourself and be safe out there. Thanks to Missy Elliott for talking through her career with Rick and sharing insight into her creative process. You can hear all of the songs mentioned in this episode, along with the rest of her now twenty five year old album Super Duper Fly, on a playlist at broken record podcast dot com. Next week, we kick off a month long slate of interviews Rick Rubin did with the Red Hot Chili Peppers to commemorate the release of their newest album, Unlimited Love. This is the Peppers like you've never heard them before, and trust me, you don't want to miss it. The first episode comes out Friday, April first, the same day as the album. Be sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel at YouTube dot com slash broken record Podcast, where you can find all of our new episodes. You can follow us on Twitter at broken Record. Broken Record is produced of help from Lea Rose, Jason Gambrell, Ben Holiday, Eric Sandler, and Jennifer Sanchez. Our executive producer is Melobell. Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries. If you like this show and others from Pushkin, consider subscribing to pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription that offers bonus content an uninterrupted ad free listening for four ninety nine a month. Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple Podcasts subscriptions, and if you'd like the show, please remember to share, rate, and review us on your podcast app. Our theme music, spect Anny Beats. I'm justin Richmond.