Linda Perry

00:00:08Speaker 1: Pushkin. Just a quick note here. You can listen to all of the music mentioned in this episode on our playlist, which you can find a link to in the show notes for licensing reasons. Each time a song is referenced in this episode, you'll hear this sound effect all right, enjoy the episode. You know, when you're on stage live and there's that whole crowd out there, there's a whole other adrenaline we're vibing off of. We're playing with Dolly fucking Parton at the Grammys. You got to be in the moment, man, Linda Perry. If you don't immediately recognize the name, you'll know her songs. That last one was a huge hit in the nineteen nineties for Linda's group Four Non Blondes. She's since become one of the most sought after songwriters and one of the only women considered a go to producer in the business. She's worked with Alicia Keys, Gwen Stefani, Celine dion Adele, and she reinvented the careers of Pink and Christina Aguilera. I met Linda North Hollywood at the first hout she ever bought in La She since transformed it into a beautiful recording studio. It's one of the most inviting creative spaces I've ever been in. When we met that day, I thought I'd be talking to someone obsessed with writing and producing hits. I couldn't have been more wrong. The level of songwriting is so low right now. I mean, do you think it's lower than it's been in the past. It's to me the worst it's ever been because everything. When you have Sony ATV and all these companies signing songwriters that have absolutely that never actually wrote a whole entire song by themselves, but they wrote a third of a top line, there's just something not right about that. It turns out Linda Perry, who's responsible for so many hits over the past two decades, isn't interested in manufactured pop, but in creating deep, impactful songs that will last. I'm Bruce Headlam and this is broken record. So we're talking to you today for many many reasons. One is that you were nominated for Producer of the Year at the Grammys this year. What amazed me was you hadn't been nominated before. Were you surprised when you were nominated? Unfortunately, I expected it because of the conditions of the world, because it's like, why didn't I get nominated before? Like why this one? And the fact that the last time that was And I could get this wrong so you can fact check me, but I believe the person who did get the last nomination that was a female was Lauren Christy, but she was part of a team that had two guys in it, so it was the matrix got the nomination. She happened to be in the matrix, so it's not that she got it solely, but it was her and two other guys. But the fact that the Grammys have been was it sixty three years? Yeah, something like that that a woman has never won is a bigger situation to me. Sod and rarely been nominated. So people should be eligible and represented because they're good, not because of who they are. And that's just where I just want life to get to. It's it's like, right now we're in a place like are we really choosing the best people for the job, or are we choosing them because we need this race or gender or diversity. And That's where I'm waiting to get out of because it's I want just people to know that they're just chosen because they're great. I mean, that's at issue, and that's the criticism a lot of forms of affirmative action and all kinds of things. Do you have to go through a period where necessarily something like the Academy says, yes, we have to honor women until you get to that business. That's what I'm trying to say. It's like, I'm waiting for this period to be over right now, right, so we can just we all got the information, the cats out of the bag, the bad guys have been pointed out at now let's move forward, yeah, to the real stuff. And I don't want to ever be honored for something that I don't deserve only because I wear cool hats and I'm a chick, you know. I want to earn and know that I got chosen because I am great at what I do, and I do believe that. But I don't ever want it to be a question to everybody else. But you've been great at what you do for a fairly long time. Yeah, and there weren't times in the past you thought what do I have to do here? Yeah? You know, I just don't operate that way. Like I've sold millions of records, I've have awards. Do you see anything in the studio that represents a plaque and an award? No, in your won't find it anywhere. You won't find it in the bathroom. You won't find it hidden in the closet, you won't find it in the garage. It's just not who I am. I don't base my beliefs on how people see me, or by a trophy or a plaque or being honored. I've never so it slips my mind. You know. My intention is always to just be the best that I possibly can. If my intention was ever I want to be I want to win that, then I have a personal problem with myself. One of the people who walked through the door recently in this beautiful house turned studio was Dolly Parton. And you hadn't done country music before. I don't think did you have a love of country music? Or my ego wanted to take over Nashville about twelve years ago. Nashville was not having it, and they threw me out the door. I have an obsession with Nashville. I've always felt that Nashville needed me, and I wanted to go in there and I wanted to find the Patsy Clins. I wanted to find the Willie Nelson's. I wanted to find Roy and Johnny and Loretta, Like, where's that. Why isn't that, you know, happening right now? Where's those dark, brooding country stars that told these incredible stories. It's like it all just sounds like, let's think of something that sounds like beer bottles and Jack Daniels, you know, or whatever. And to me, that's it's like taking the jazz out of jazz. So country music to me, I was brought up and my father loved country music, country music and Frank Sinatra, so it's it's in my I mean, I can write, I can write, I can go be country if I wanted to, I make a whole country album. It's in me somehow. So that didn't work out, And okakay, tell me how you said your ego try to take over. Well, I went to go. I went out there to work with Faith Hill, and I wrote some really great songs for her. One was like a gospel and one was a great country song, and she was over the moon. Basically as soon as I left the studio in the car, her manager called my manager at the time and said, you know these songs will never see the light of day. They're not going to go on any faith Hill record, Like it was crazy. And then I guess people were upset at her for bringing an outsider, so it was just obviously not a good fit for me. And then so the fact that when this all full circle came back around what ten twelve years later, and I'm getting an opportunity to go work with Dolly Parton, I was like, fuck, yes, you know. I told the music supervisor Buck Damon, like, don't you dare go hire anybody else. I am the right person for this job. And then because there was somebody else, he was going to look at that more qualified, you know. And because I had to do with like a little bit of scoring too, like be able to take the songs that I write and weave them through the movie. So then I was I had this whole brainstorm like, well, they want me to write one song with her and re record one old song, and I said, now we got to do a whole album. I'm gonna get together Dolly Parton. I'm writing an album with her. I'm doing a whole album. So I came up with the idea to do five redos, like you know, and get duets, you know. So I get to see it, and I start picking out people that I thought would be a great fit, not who was most popular, but what would be a great fit for Dolly's voice, and put that all together. And then when her and I finally met and she heard these songs, she was like, holy smoke. The when when they told me you're gonna I was gonna work with Lynda pair I said, okay, I do. She's like, you know, I thought you were going to take the songs more pop, and I was gonna be fine with that. I wouldn't have said anything, you know, and because she would not have liked that at all. So you wrote the songs not with her, but no, I re recorded the songs the re records, like here I Am Dune Blonde. I got in here the band. I put a band together that were not session players and they were not from Nashville, recorded it here, had someone sing the parts down for her, and then I sent that those are just the re records. And then when we met and she was so happy with what it sounded like. She was like, it sounds modern, but it doesn't. It sounds like me. And it's like Oh my god, I'm just sitting in my chair and spinning and loving this and whatever. And she's like, so, what do you want? We had? I guess we're gonna write tomorrow. And everybody's like saying, Dolly hasn't written with anybody. You know, she doesn't write with people, and she hasn't she hasn't written in a while, so good luck you know to that. And I'm like, okay, don't worry. I'm not worried at all. So when we met, we just instantly got along. And she's like, so, you know, we're gonna writing session tomorrow. What are you expecting. And I'm like, well, we're gonna sit down and just hang out. She's like, well, just so you know, I just don't write with people and it's been a while since I've written a song. She's like, are you you have a number in mind? And I'm like, yeah, I feel like five or six. And she just like looked at me and started laughing, and she was like, okay, well let's just get one, you know. And it two days. We wrote six songs. It was just like bang, bang bang bang. We just hit it off. It literally, she's like a close friend now and We talked to each other like at least twice a week, and she's an incredible inspiration and her talent is obviously beyond belief, and her storytelling is that of what I've been missing. So we wrote these great fucking songs. And it doesn't sound modern, but it doesn't sound old, but it sounds like Dolly. Still, how did you start to write with You're in a room. Were you in this room with her? No, I was in Nashville. You were in Nashville. So you're sitting down in her place. She has a place where she calls it the villa. She had her long nails, so she didn't want to play guitar. Just pick up the guitar and I start coming up with ideas just like that. You didn't did you talk much? First? Yeah? We talked, and then we just it was time to create. You know, when there's time to create, there's no talking. You just go into create. Really, you just flip a switch, just flip a switch. And it was funny because the bob that was in there, he was like, what are you guys doing. It's like, we're just writing songs and he's like, that's another good one. And then we did it again. So the first day was three songs, the second day was three songs. Then she took it and wrote lyrics on the second night to all of the songs, and then by the third day she came and we recorded them down with the lyrics, and then I came here with those songs and recorded them, and then she showed up and then we did the vocals. So she then wrote the lyrics in a day to all the songs. Yeah, and she also came and sang all of those songs in one day. Was she surprised how fast you were doing it? She was surprised, Yeah, because she's written a lot of songs. She's written like five thousand songs. Yeah, she was surprised how easy it was with the two of us. But then she calls me her creative soulmate. She and I are very very similar when we have a lot of we're very the same when it comes to work. It's like we're very hardcore about our work ethics and we're workers, and so it was like easy, writing songs should be easy. You shouldn't have to labor over writing a song when you're laboring when you're like I've heard I hear people about working on a song for a week, Like you've been writing a song for a fucking week? Are you kidding me? It's time to let go and move on, you know, And especially if it's taken five of you to write a song in one week, there's a bigger problem there. And Dolly and I just went We just had a creative flow and we just took advantage of the energy that was going on. And then she showed up on the third day with all the lyrics and we just recorded it down. It is a god. These are incredible. And then when I got here, I recorded all the songs, sent them ahead. She came down here and walked in and sang all six songs in one day. I was like, are you fucking kidding me? Like what, I can't even get a young artist to come in and sing one song in a day. Dolly Parton at seventy three walked in here and sang six very difficult songs in one day. Okay, So that part impressed you, that she could writing fast doesn't impress you. But singing six songs in a day, because it's you have to understand, Dolly. Normally, a woman loses their high range as they get older. Dolly is singing all her songs and all the original keys. There's no change does all in the original keys. Wow. And that is extremely impressive because like I've known artists at twenty and then I see him again at thirty and they're already they can't even get In fact, I have an artist that isn't even singing all her songs right now, and she's really new and she's already dropping the keys down to preserve her voice. Dolly, Dolly's in it. She's a singer, She's that's all even. She's a writer and she's a singer. She's a performer. She's Dolly Parton, one of the most recognizable people on this planet. Yeah you know. And she does not take her name lightly like she wants to know that Dolly Parton did all this, like it's a Dolly Parton is her business and she does. She practice every day? Does she She's writing all the time. She says that she's you know, I always get around with her. I'm like, do you really, like what do you do at home? Like are you you know? Because she's always decked out, yeah you know, And I'm like, are you do you go to a store. Do you go to a store? And if you do, you know? And I'm convinced she has a whole other life, because once you take off all that stuff, there's got to be you can't recognize her, I'm certain. So she'll laugh and I'm like, do you have another lifestyle going on? And she's like, you never know. Well, she also taps into clearly her early life. Yeah, very easily, because girl to movies to me, I mean it's it's a different period, but it reminded me of Code of many Colors. Yeah, well that's some saying that Dolly won't write just for a movie. She has to relate to it. So the inspiration was, how can I write some stories that are are going to be fulfilling to me emotionally and support this film and the characters. But the people you have worked with were very consciously or maybe not consciously when they showed up trying to make a change in their career, trying to sort of push limits. I think of the first Pink album you did, certainly the albums you did with Christine Aguiler and those are those are probably your most famous albums. Is that process different than what working with someone like Dolly Parton, who's such a pro. When someone else comes in here, how do you work with them? Well, I still was changing Dolly. I told her, I said, I'm going to change it up a little bit, you know, because when you listen to Dolly Parton records, there's a lot going on in the production. And I told her I was going to clean out everything. I just warned them and I said, I didn't want to make this a Nashville country album. I just wanted it to have a cool feel. I wanted to divibe, and they were all up for it. And you know, she has this song called here I Am that. I'm shocked it was never a single, so see us sing it with her. It's such a big song and it never was a single in the seventies. But I listened to it and I'm like, well I could see why it was. It was just a lot was going on, you know, So Dolly doesn't need someone like me. But what I offered, and what I came in with was giving kind of like a a flip a little bit like I just flipped it, you know, kind of just gave her a tiny little not makeover, but more of a like a let's just get you a little bit more present into the here and now. What were the musical aesthetics you wanted to change? The music was just taking all the twang out and all the it was like the Nashville out of it. Because those players incredible players, but it's hard to get a grip on them, and then there's no feel. It's just guys going in a room and they're clocking in and they're taking their fifteen minute break, you know. But guys in bands they don't do that. They work for pizza and beer and they're done until they're done, and the heart of it comes from that, you know. So that was the biggest thing she heard that right off the top. Like one of the biggest compliments I recently just received was, you know, I put together her Grammy performance with that same band and the sound everything, and after the performance, I did the whole medley, you know, and and Ken Erlek said that he's never let somebody do that before, so he just let me do the medley, put it all together, and it came out incredible. It was a big hit and everybody remembers it. Yeah. So then I'm out there, I'm about to go sit down and Beck comes up to me, and you know, Beck doesn't talk a lot, and he comes up to me and he's all, that was great, you know, really like mellow And I'm like, thank you. He's like, so, who is the band? Like, would it be anybody I know? And I'm like no. He's like, are they studio players? I'm like no, I said, they're all from you know, I'm talking in his like you know, like this lower level and I'm like no, back, I go there, they're friends, they're from bands. And he's like, you could totally tell. That was really great. They had a great feel. And that is exactly what I was trying to go for, is that when all the musicians in that room could hear the difference of all of what you normally get on the Grammys. And what was even funnier is that they kept calling me the Grammys would ask me for the files and I'm all, what files, Like, well, when you can't, just can you just send us over the files? And I kept on going, what files are you talking about? You know, They're like, you know the tracks? Oh, I go no, dude, this is live. Oh okay. And then I'd get a call the next day do you when do you think you'll have those files over to us? The sessions, And I'm like, I'm going to say it again. We are playing live. There's no clicks, there's no back click track or none of that. We're playing live. At this point, Linda stepped out to take a phone call, so we'll take a break too. When we come back, we'll have more with Linda Perry. We're back with Linda Perry. So your background, you grew up not here, You grew up East, is that right? I grew up in San Diego. I was born in Boston, but I was only one years one year old, and then I moved to San Diego. And guitar was your first instrument. Guitar, Yeah, I just started kind of singing writing. It just all kind of fell together. And then and what age did you know that was going to be it? I didn't, So I never looked at it as music. I just knew I was different and I was special. So I would like do stuff like interview myself. At the time, we had Mike Douglas and the mrv Griffin Show, and I'd be on the MURV Griffin Show, Hey in my room, and well, now we're going to bring back Linda Perry. Oh, it's so good to have you back, Linda. And I never know why I'm on the show, but i'd be like, thanks merv. Oh yeah, it feels good to be here and everybody, and I see the plause, I see everybody. I'm doing this interview and everything, but there was no clear understanding of what it was I was famous and on the show for, and then everything that I did was modeled after this very confidence. Whatever it was the way, it was never clear way anybody was on the merv of Griffin. Yeah, I remember, it was like and then and then it got to school and I just could not you know, I'm very I'm not good in school. I'm not good with learning something like it's hard for you to teach me something. So I got out of school very early, like eighth grade. But I kept telling myself this was okay because what I'm going to be I don't need school. I don't need to know math and social studies and this is going to be of no use for me. Well, what are you going to do, Linda. I don't know, but I know it's not okay. I'm going to stop you right there, because as beautiful as this room is there is a there's the studio room over there with all the equipment and I'll bet you know that equipment backwards and forward. Yeah, I had to buy it and teach myself how to do it. Okay, but that it is a room that would scare most engineers a general dynamic, yes, but you were able to teach yourself even things that complicated. Yeah, well, it's really not that complicated once you understand what the each item does, because everything has a category. There's eques. That's pretty self explanatory to me. You got your lows, you got your midge, you get your highs, and you just turn the knobs until it sounds good, and then you have compression, and compression you get to play with because you don't got a certain amount of knobs on that one, and so you just turn it. There's thresholds, there's attacks, there's all this stuff and you figure it out like you know, oh, oh that's what that does. It was like I did this album for nun Blong's album, which I just can't bear listening to it. It's ridiculously bad to me. The sound we are good, you know, the band was a good band and still like the songs on it, kind of some of them, but the song, the sound of the record is like atrocious to me. You know, what's up with the only song I recorded? I did that one? So you recorded that one? I recorded What's up? Okay? So it wasn't the was it not David Tickle? I recorded that because David Tickle's version was terrible, so I re recorded it. So when I would ask him questions about why does this sound like this or whatever? I would be met with can't you just be the singer and let me just be the producer and be happy with that? And then when I'd go to the label to tell them how unhappy I was with what was going on, I would be met with the exact same thing. Can't you just be happy knowing that you're you know, being involved and your voice is being heard, and he's gonna change some things. I'm like, no, that's my point. He's not. He's telling me to be a singer. And if I'm just a singer, well then there's a bigger problem here because I'm not. I'm the main songwriter and I am the singer, but more importantly, I'm the you know, fronting this band, and I have a bigger vision than what's happening here. So anyways, so how did you do that? I mean, nobody wanted you to record the song. No, I was miserable with this version because it had a solo in it. He had me change lyrics. There's a marching drum, all this craziness, and so we were pretty much done. We had one reala tape left and we said, can we have that? And so we took the real tape and I called the plant in Salsilito. It's like, we don't have any money. The label's not going to give us any more money, but we have to re record a song and we have one REALA type. Can we come in? And they're of course, And so I think our manager worked out some kind of really great little spec deal whatever. I don't know, but barely anything. They were so supportive of us there with their house engineer, and I sat with him and just started dialing in sounds. I don't had you ever been behind a console before, No, not at all, but I watched everything, So I just started dialing in sounds with him, learning from him. Hey, I'm not liking the way this kick drum sounds. I'm gonna go move it, move the microphone around you happy with that? That sounds great, guitar tones, vocal tone great. We get our take. We mix it that night because we're masterinus the next day, so we mix it that night. We're there all night long, and we barely made that version onto the record. And then when I was telling my manager, I feel like I should get producer on this, my own manager was like, I don't think that's going to happen. You know, they already have the deal. And then I asked Tom Wally, I'm like, I feel like I should get producer on this, and he can't. You be happy that you are part of it. It's your band, it you saved the day, But why can't I get production? I produced this, David didn't. David's production has a solo and a dumb marching drum, and this song wouldn't have been a hit if it was for David, you know. Anyways, So that was my first experience, and then from then on out it was I just constantly asked questions and I started buying gear as soon as we started making money. I worked with Bill Batrell on a solo album, and he taught me everything he taught. He said, all the right things to me, turn the knobs until it sounds good to your ears. There's nothing right or wrong, and this is what this does. This, And so I just started buying equipment and then a bunch of it just sat in my warehouse in San Francisco and I would look at it and I just started kind of piecing it together. And it took me months to figure out how to put it all together. I mean, I'm talking about twenty four channel board, talking about nave pres compressors, the machine, all of it. And I just kept going at it every single day until I fully understood. And then I got it all in. And then I had to call this one guy just to hardwire some things for me that I was like, Oh, okay, I get it. I can't make this work. Has to be hardwired into the board, So like, can you come do this for me? I don't know anything about that, you know. So it was was it scary getting up every day and looking at the stuff, or you just thought that if you kept at it, no, it would work. Nothing's impossible. I didn't say it was impossible. Ask if it was scary, No, they're scared scary I'm only scared now. I just recently got scared because the more when you get in family, fear, fear starts showing up when there's other people involved, you know, but no, fear and being scared has never been okay, what fears show up now? Well, when you have a family, your feared of, fear of like, oh, I know only thing to happen to my family. I got to take care of them, you know, being a good mom. But in terms of in terms of your career, you didn't have that. No, So when you did your I think your first solo was in Flight? Was that right? Yes? Was that the way you wanted it? Did that turn out? I love that album. That album to me is honestly it's perfection. I love that album. It sounds like everything that was in my head. You know. I sat down and with the bottle of wine and my cigarettes and just sat at a chair just like this and basically saying like this, it's very ambitious, a lot of different kinds of arrangements. Yeah, well that's what was in That's the album I wanted to make. But four non blondes and the label didn't want that album, and I just said, well, I'm going to go. You guys can have that album. There was a second album that we were and it was filled with probably pop songs, but I didn't like it. I couldn't go, I couldn't support it. Did you start writing for other people and then start producing or producing then writing it came together? Because then I was so bummed out when in Flight the label just basically shelved that record. I was very disappointed. So I just said, okay, I'll go find another way into this little party. I was so fixated with vintage. Everything I did was, you know, on vintage gear, and I was kind of a snob. So I moved to La Left, San Francisco. I'm like, all right, I'm out of here. Came here, moved into this house and turned there's a room in there, and I turned that into my studio. And I called a friend and I said, what's all that stuff on the radio right now? Like, what are the what's that sound that I'm hearing? And then he said, oh, it's a Trident keyboard, MPCs. People are recording to D eighty eights now and and roll in expansion cards or programs. I'm like all right, So I went and bought all that set it up, moved all my vintage gear out of the way, you know, left up pres and stuff, plugged in all this shit, and now I just know everything. And now I know what I'm doing. I know how everything gets connected. And so I'm like, all right, let's see what this shit does. Okay, blah blah. I get on the NPC. It create a beat, and then I create some other stuff and oh, here's what are these weird little horns? Okay horns? Just kind of finding out what all this stuff does. This needs a wa wa. I mean, I grab my guitar, like on me ad this blah blah blah, grab a bullet microphone and I'm just like, I'm gonna think of every cliche I can think of coming up. So you better get this potty started. Get this poddy started on a Saturday, you know, and I just start singing this crazy song. And I mean it happened so quick, but it was just me dicking around trying to understand what this equipment did. And then a week later, who calls me, This girl Pink, She's like left this crazy message and I call her back and I'm like, I don't think you have the right Linda Perry. I just saw who you were, and I don't know anything about R and B and I'm not hip at all. And she's like, are you Lenna Perry that's saying what's up? And dear mister President. I'm like yeah, and she's like, you're the right Linda Perry. So we meet and did you know her stuff at all? No? Well from MTV. I saw it and I see blingling ching ching, come on, and that's why I told her I don't. It's not my world. So I meet her. We instantly connect. She seems like a little mini version of myself, you know, And I play her get the party started. I'm like, oddly, I just wrote this crazy song and I play it to her and she's like great, and then she plays it to La Reid and they're like, we got our first single. Those are the productions. So writing and producing came hand in hand, and then that's what started off. But you said you were just it was a song just of cliches. Do you like the song? I love it? Okay? To me, it's a it's totally fun. I love it for so many reasons. One, it's so not my style. Do you have written a song like that two. It has a lot of heart. You know that song, It's like it's crazy, but it's got a cool vibe and it's so bizarre. I mean, I have harpsichord and claws, and I got the craziest things. If you actually listened to the song and break it down, there's so much going on in there, but not you know, but I and then everything was live again, nothing was cut and pace. It was like I just played everything on the fly. So there was no punching in either. Like that was the beauty of this track. If I picked up the bass, I played the bass from start to and there was no I didn't punch in anything. I was just I didn't know this was going to be a recording. I would thought it was just going to be an experience, you know. And how much of that those original things you did in that room ended up in the final That was all of it? Really, Yeah, that was it. That was it. So everything her and I did was the final and they were just demos. So I pride myself on doing really great demos. And one of the great things I tell people, it's like it's very very important no matter where you are when you write a song and you're gonna to go demo it, make sure you're recording it great. Just take a moment because you're never going to get that back. You're never going to get that vocal back of writing a song and being in that moment right then and there. You can recreate it. You could try to get that back, but that moment when you write that song in all your heart and your energy is in it. Just make sure you record the vocal the best that you possibly can, because that vocal, chances are is going to be the master vocal. What was Pinkle like to work with? Did she understand that? Really? Great? You know, problem child, a little rebellious, but it was fun, like she needed me and I needed her, Like we entered each other's lives in a very interesting time. Like what did she need from you? She needed my guidance and my like I'm when I'm with artists, I'm very grounding. I ground people and give them. She needed to get out of what you know, she they were turning her into an R and B artist and she didn't want to do that and she wouldn't have gotten it out on her own. So when she and I met, I pulled her out. I asked her, can you bring me your CD collection? So she showed up one day with her big CDs collection, like two big catalog things whatever, And I just went through with Bruce Springsteen the time, Carol King, Aretha Franklin, Errol Smith, Errolsmith, Erolsmith. And what did that tell you? Well? I said, how are you doing the music that you're doing? You don't even have any of that in here. She's like, I don't know. It's where I started. You know. She started in a girl band that was being put together. Yeah, she was. They were putting her together and everybody was writing the songs, and so sitting with me, we actually it's like, well, let's just write whatever we're going to writ right, And there was this one song called Eventually. I said, do you trust me? And she's like, yeah, I think so. And I said I need you to just I'm going to play some chords and you're just going to open up your mouth and you're just going to start singing. And she like looked at me like huh. I go, She's like, how am I going to do that? I go, You're going to do it from your heart. You're just going to close your eyes and you're going to tell me how you feel right now, but you're gonna tell me on the microphone, and you're going to use words and you're going to sing it at the same time. And she was petrified. So we put headphones on and I just started playing these chords. I found these chords. I didn't even know the chords that we're going to be and I just found these beautiful chords, you know, and it's just instantly, You're just in this moment, you're just feeling this emotion because that's what chords are supposed to do, and she just opened her mouth and sang exactly what is on the record, Like all those words were made up. That whole take was improvised. If so, if you go back and listen to eventually, Okay, you're going to be extremely impressed. Kids, you not. The only thing we added was I started producing up the track and maybe dis some backgrounds, but that piano and that vocal was all ad libbed and it just went and I got it was so emotional. Obviously something happened. The trust and the channeling and just opening up and just going for it. That song really made me very aware of who she is as an individual too because of what she was talking about. The whole song is about people trying to have control over you. And did you know it? When you were playing it, we were thinking, this is it? This is the song I knew and I found the chords. Yeah, something magical was going to happen. So she was definitely was great about her and kind of everybody that I work with, And maybe if I can be as bold to say it's me that's making this happen, that all the experiences are extremely vulnerable and open, and I can tell you about this experience with pretty much every artist I've ever worked with. It's something that I feel is extremely important to happen. My job as a producer to make the artists feel safe and have them trust me. And because what we're trying to do is be creative. We're trying to do something different, We're trying to tell a story, and it's very important that whoever you're working with feel safe because otherwise you're not going to get that experience at all. You make it sound almost like therapy, it's very much therapy. It's I mean, there's crying, there's vulnerabilities, there's confessions, is that why you think so many of your artists I said earlier, they seem to be wanting to take a different direction when they work with you. Y is it they don't want to Is that part of Is that the result of the way you work? Do you think I choose who I work with? They don't choose me, but I choose because I have to understand that something something. I'm going to get something out of this, and it's not hits. I'm not looking for that. I prefer album tracks. I prefer albums. I don't like doing a song for somebody. I don't find any satisfaction in that whatsoever. I have to know that I'm going to be able to have this experience with somebody and it's going to be real and it's not going to be like, hey, can you write me get the party started? Or beautiful or whatever their thoughts are. I don't work with people like that. I want to look back at my career and be really proud of it. When we come back, Linda talks about Christina Aguilera and how she gave her the song Beautiful. We're back with more, Linda Perry, you mentioned beautiful. Can you tell me a bit about that song, because that really is You've written a lot of terrific songs. That is one of the great songs of all time. It's great because it's just an honest statement. Like I feel like that song really was the starting of all everybody getting vulnerable and making an honest statement, especially having someone like Christina Aguilera sing it. Did you write it for her? No, I wrote the song for me, and she just happened to be when I had finished writing it. She was who came in through the doors. Never was intended for anybody, and she asked me to sing it or play something. When she came here, my studio was here. It's full circle for me. I'm talking like fifteen years ago. Whatever it was. She, you know, I had my piano and she said, I'm nervous, and I wouldn't allow her posse to come in or management. So that's a thing that I have. I don't don't I don't need your friends that hang out and distract, and I don't need managers or labels to come in here and act like they know what they're doing. So all that stuff is just not allowed in here. So she came in and was nervous, and she didn't have her group of people, and she's like, can I love your voice? Do you think you could play something to break the ice? And I'm like, all right, sure. So I just happened. Beautiful was the new Fresh song and I play that to her and she just instantly was like, can you record that? I want it for my album. And I was in shock. I'm like, she's not a song for you. I don't feel beautiful. You are beautiful. So I was like, let me hear you sing it. So I had her come back like three days later, and again by herself. Well no, this time she asked if her friend, her friend, could come, and I'm like, all right, no problem. Your friend could come because he was driving her. I was like, okay, no problem. So we go in that room and I had laid down the piano I had given her the lyrics she had I sent. I sent her a demo to practice before she came. So I pushed record and literally, no kidding, she you know, don't look at me, you know. And as soon as I heard that, She's like telling her friend, don't look at me, Like that's where that came from. Oh he was in the room. Yeah, he was in the room, and she said, don't look at me. And I knew as soon as I heard that the song was hers. It showed it just expressed so much vulnerability, and I was like, Oh, she's insecure, just like me. You know, she doesn't think she's beautiful, like a beautiful person doesn't say something like that because the vulnerability in her voice. So I knew right then I was going to keep that that's the starting of the song and that she was definitely the right person for it, and that take is eighty percent the take, and I just went back and punched in some flubs that she did. She's such an acrobat with her voice. Did she want to keep going back at it to make it? Oh? Yeah. She begged me for seven months to re record the vocals and I said no. She's like, but I know it better. I'm like, exactly, that's what the problem is. So right before we finalized went into mix, she's again begging. We're at Conway Studios now and she's like, please let me just re sing the vocal. I'm so unhappy with it. It's and I said, I can't tell you. I'll give you a shot. So literally, you hear the beautiful, simple you know quartet, mind you, it's a quartet sixteen tracks on that song. Sixteen tracks, that's all that was used on that song. So you hear those quartet and then she comes in with every day Lafe is wonderful, and then I just pushed stop. She's all what, I'm like, you're already ruining the fucking song, you know, and she like, you're right, And then that was it. She she got it. She's like, I'm never gonna beat that vocal. I'm like, you know, you're not. Wow, So finally you know, I won I mean, it's a classic, it will forever be a classic song for hers. It's her most I mean, it's her top song. Yeah, and it introduced a vulnerable Christina. It introduced like, oh, maybe she isn't just what we think she is, Maybe she just isn't orange tan, and you know, a vocal acrobatic like. It brought an emotion, a relatability all of a sudden, she is relatable. Yeah, she was a prodigy, and prodigies often have trouble communicating, So that song single handedly changed the way everybody looked at her. Do you think as a producer and a songwriter you relate better to female artists, or do you think that that just is simply who you've worked with. I'm where I'm at because it's by design. Again, the universe is putting me in this position because obviously women need me in this role because there are none. I get a lot of times women being so relieved to be working with a woman because they've never done that before on the songwriting and production side. But I'm also tough, so I can not fall into the we're not gonna be bff and talk about shopping. I'm a strong woman that is very focused on what it is that I want to convey, and I'm quick at picking up people's energy and what's going on with them. I feel like it's awesome that somebody has me to come to because I'm safer to be vulnerable. I mean, let's just face it. It's not everywhere. And I'm not saying this about every guy, but guys can be dicks in the studio. There's ego, there's this whole I mean, I experienced it. Can't you just be a singer? That happens still today? There's sexual harassment there. Can I just come into this fucking studio and just not be hit on you know what I mean, is that stuff you had to put up with me? No? God, No, people don't want to hit on me. I'm talking about all the stories that I get from these women. It's like it's a constant thing. This is happening fifteen years ago, fifty years ago, and last week. Yeah, so when you come work with me, you know, that's just not going to happen. You're can come in and we're working. We're going to get down and dirty, you know, with the music and creating. It's safer. And then I have really great information. And again, there's a lot of women that like that strong male energy. I kind of have that. So it's like you're getting the best of both worlds in a sense, because I can be a dick if you want me to. I'm sure you saw a piece of that for me. And I mean, I'm not all I'm not a soft person, but I can be. I'm very genuine and I'm very real and I'm very honest. Would the music business be better if there were more people, if they were more female producers, more female songwriters. I don't fucking know, man, I have no idea. I don't think women. I'm only speaking about myself, and I don't relate to either or to be quite honest, I'm Linda Perry. I've always been Linda Perry, and however you want to call that, I don't really care. But I just do what I do. And I think the world would be better and the music business would be better if people did what they really truly wanted to do and not focus on what it's going to impress people, or how many records they can sell or how many followers they can gain. If we just did things from a completely different intention that had to benefit other people. How can I write a song today that's going to benefit somebody? What can I do today that's going to help somebody? How can I help the community? If we had that, then we would know that in order to help the music community and the songwriters, all the fame and all those things, we need to start having some songwriters that are writing some fucking valid songs that's going to boost up the community. We're going to have to kind of take some risks here and decide maybe, just maybe, what if everybody's decided to stop streaming. What if everybody decided, you know what, fuck this my next big record? What if Adele, Miley, Cyrus, Taylor Swift and whoever, Sean Mendez all decided that they're next album was going to be on vinyl and only on vinyl, and they were going to sell it at mom pastores across the world and targets and wherever else, and they were not going to release a song on the DSPs. You know what that would do. It would fuck some shit up, man. But you know what, it won't happen because they'd be afraid to lose their fan base. Their labels won't let them do it because they're afraid to lose money. Everybody is operating on fear of losing something, and we can't. We can't live that way. We can't have a successful business when we're all afraid to actually expand the business and grow it. Do you think people it wouldn't make people listen to the music more well. Being the micromanager and the producer I am, I would make sure that somehow I would have hands on it, that it'd have to go through my ears first, because the first and foremost most important thing she got to make an album that is actually good. You can't just put two good songs on and then a bunch of filler, like I'm talking about some old school shit. Let's get back to the album where it was eleven ten eleven songs and they were great. There was obvious hits, and there's great, great album tracks that supported those hits, because that's what we're missing right now. You're not forced to buy an album. No, you could just buy the single. You put together your own compilations. No one's listening to albums, and then but then everybody says, well, albums don't sell. But then Adele will put out an album and it like breaks every record out there. Yeah, why is that? Hum Are think good albums? Huh? Adele's record, Well, this last one to me wasn't as good as the last one. But yeah, I think she makes great records. And she's not playing the same game either. You don't see Adele splashed all over the place. She's just doing her thing and when it shows up, it's quality, it's classy, and it's you own it. But everybody's afraid, oh I don't want to be irrelevant, you know, or oh I gotta have like record companies? Are you got to have a single out every week? Why? Because you don't want to work one. We're just putting it out there until it hits, so everybody else does all the work for us. Labels aren't even a label anymore. That's why they're going down. And managers don't even manage. Is this why, I mean you've started your own publishing. Yeah, that's why we are here. Is really important to me. We are here as h Ear and my partner Carry Brown. We manage, we're a label and we're a publishing company and now apparently we run events as well too. But we are great, like I'm a great manager, carries a great manager because we're in it. We are with our artists. Were what is your dream? Oh god, that sounds so complicated. Okay, we're gonna make it happen, you know. It's like there's nothing impossible and building careers. We have an artist named Dorothy. She's on rock Nation. Now. If it were up to rock Nation, her album would be done. She'd have all her songs singled out in the first month, you know, and it would be like we're like, uh uh, that's not gonna happen. We're on two years. Her album has been out and we're just about to go into her third single, Like that's unheard of. And she started two years ago playing to three hundred people, and now she's been opening for Greta Van Fleet, she's playing Woodstock, she's selling out her own, you know, fifteen hundred to three thousand over the course of two years. Because we just kept looping her around. I was calling radio stations myself. They're like, holy fuck, why is Linda Perry calling me? Because Dorothy's I manage Dorothy. They're like, holy shit, this is so cool, you know whatever, and well, what do you need? I'm like, I need you to play Dorothy just once. It's all asking player once. If you don't like it, great, the listeners don't like it, fine, but if they do, then I want you to play her ten times and then heavy rotation. And that's kind of where we're at. And so we have artists of all different calibers. And we have an artist named Willa that's fourteen. I found her when she's twelve. I've been developing and just nurturing her and making sure she's okay. And she's incredibly prolific and extremely talented kid. And she came to me finally and just said I'm ready, I like ready for what She's like I want you to put me out there, and I'm like, like my little baby, you know, I'm afraid. But then I wasn't afraid because we're her label and we're her manager. Oh I'm not afraid. We got this. Yeah, if it was somebody else, I would be afraid. That's a lot of work, though. You don't want to just keep producing and writing, you want to do all that, Like, that's a busy life. I'm a very busy person. But do do you work well under those circumstances? Everything's kind fortunately I do. I'm really good under stress. And it brings unhappiness at times, you know, because you're just like constantly working. There's never a break. But it helps me grow, you know, as a human being, because it's just like it's so challenging to operate with no sleep and no rest and constant stress. You really are challenged with who you are as a person and how you are to other people. And I have a very short temper. But I'm great. I really do think I'm a really good human being. Do I have a lot of work? Yeah, I have a lot of work to do on myself, and I have a lot to offer you him her, everyone because I'm vulnerable and I'm honest, and I'm not afraid to look bad. I'm not afraid to look good. I'm not afraid to be ugly or pretty, and i feel like I'm really happy with how I'm turning out. As a to hear more about Linda Perry, including her full collaboration with Dolly Parton and a playlist of her greatest hits, visit Broken Record podcast dot com. Broken Record is produced by Justin Richmond and Jason Gambrel, with help from Neil LaBelle, Jacob Smith, Julia Barton, and Jacob Weisberg. Special thanks to my co hosts Rick Rubin and Malcolm Gladwell. Our Broken Record theme music is by the hip hop phenom Kenny Beats. Check out his new album Anger Management with rapper Rico Nasty. Wherever you get your music for Pushkin Industries, I'm Bruce Heaven