John Hiatt and Jerry Douglas

00:00:15 Speaker 1: Pushkin. John Hyatt is a Nashville based singer songwriter whose songs have been covered by a wide range of popular artists, including Iggy Pop, Paula Duel and Jimmy Buffett, Missus Sip of Bone Boom, and A Middle of the Night Bugs, Flying every Well, Crazy Against Stage Online. Hyatt signed his first record deal in nineteen seventy four, and in the years since he's released twenty four albums. His latest Leftover Feelings, he recorded with the Jerry Douglas band. Douglas, who's feigned producer and session musician, as one fourteen Grammys for solo work and collaborations that they slew of successful musicians. He's also known as one of the foremost masters of the dough bro an instrument similar to the lapsteal guitar. On today's episode, John Hyatt and Jerry Douglas performed three songs off their new album and talk to Bruce Head them about how they came together to record that album and the studio that's known as the birthplace of the Nashville Sad. John Hyatt also explains how one of his new songs helped him forgive the horrific abuse he endor from his older brother when he was growing up. This is broken record liner notes for the digital age. I'm justin Richmond. Here's Bruce Head them with John Hyatt and Jerry Douglas. Tell me a bit about you hadn't worked together. I don't think he'd worked directly together before. How did it even come about that you were working together? Jerry? How in the hell did we wind up with each other? Well, we're both suddenly under the same managerial umbrella. Our managers got together and talked and said, well, why don't those guys do a record together? They know each other, Why haven't they ever recorded together? And we actually have recorded together on the second circle be Unbroken Record. I was in the house band that played every day and John came through with Roseanne Cash. We did a song for that and Jerry was, yeah, Jerry played with everybody. Yeah, so we were We did do that, and we've done each other for a long time and had some great conversations. When it came up, I thought, yeah, that'd be great man. Who wouldn't want to do it? Record with John Hyatt anyway? So I felt the same way. I was excited about the ideas idea of playing with you know the man who was the logical next prince of the Dobroud Taylor to Older and Josh Grays, and then you have Jerry Douglas Boom. Now did you come in with all the songs ready to go or was it were you picking through songs and looking through files? And I sent Jerry about fifteen tunes, a couple of older ones, one of which we did on the record, a song called Little good Night, which I wrote when my thirty three year old daughter was born, but I had never recorded it, so that was kind of fun. And then we redid a song All the Lilacs in Ohio, which was on a record I put out in two thousand and three. Everything else was relatively new, About five or six of them I wrote, I'd call them pandemic songs. We were both ready to do the record and everything, and one of the cool things, especially for me, is we were going to use my band is going to be on the tour and did all the recording as well with John, so it just gave him a completely a different twist on John Hyatt. We didn't know what it was gonna sound like either, which I was very excited about. Of course, we never do really, but I'm interested when you did you Know all the Lilacs, which is, as you said, a song about almost twenty years old. I mean, who said we got to do that song and put it in a very different It's still fast, it's still got a lot of energy, but it's very different setting. Well. I sent it to Jeried because I talked with him in his band, you know, fiddle and upright bass and dobro, that it would really lend itself to the song. And I felt like the song, although I thought it was a successful recording for what it was, but I felt like the story in the song it might have gotten a little lost. This to me, is a little more focused in terms of being able to follow this story, which was basically an idea I stole from one of my favorite movies, Lost Weekend, and it was actually a line in the movie Ray in the land talking to Sam and the bartender telling him. Ray plays a drunk who wants to write weren't we all? And don't we all want to? We've been through that part too. Yeah. He talks about this girl he's just met. They're in New York City and he says, you know, I go to see her and the sunlight hits the gray of the drain pipe on her building. And then she can't meet me at the assigned time, but she sends a note down to be given to me by the doorman, and I opened it and it smells like all the lilacs in Ohio? Is that right? Is that what that came from? Yeah? I didn't do that. Oh that's it's so beautiful. It's a beautiful story. And I'm from Ohio and I never saw any lilacs in Ohio, so I really was concerned. Yeah, you should just be stealing songs from old movies, because like those old kind of tough guy ben Hecked dialogue. Listen, I'll steal from anywhere, any idea there's laying about. So when you heard the songs, Jerry, now you've produced a lot of records, But what did you think, said? I mean, you knew it was going to be your band, But did a certain sound, at a kind of atmosphere come to mind when you were going through the songs? Well, yeah, I always thought of us the band as an electric band. I mean, I didn't take away. We're making a record with John Hyatt, We're gonna sound like John Hyatt. You know, we're just gonna be chameleons and tap into whatever it is that he's hearing here, and we're just gonna give it legs. The song All the Lilacs in Ohio. I've heard it as like a sing along for a lot of people in an audience, you know, when it gets to the line all the Lilacs in Ohio, and it's a real easy thing for people to pick up and attach themselves to sing it, you know, sing it loud. I love to be a great live concert kind of song. I always kind of try to imagine us on stage playing songs for somebody. Well, that's interesting because it's pretty much all we did in the studio. Well, they were live performances. I played and sang live. What you what I played is what you got. Yeah. The studio that we recorded in our CEA studio Beat was one of the first real recording studios in Nashville. It's owned by the Country Music Hall of Fame and let us go in there and record there, And people don't usually record in there anymore. They run tourists through there. So we got in during COVID, so there were no tourists, so nobody to bother us, and we didn't have to tear down or anything. And so we just set up and recorded. But like nine months after we were supposed to. They gave us four days. We made the record in four days, did a few overdubs later, but the basic records was done, afforded. Is that the fastest you've ever done a record, It's tied Bring the Family was four days. It's a really good way to do it. That's a good omen. So you don't have time to overthink anything, that's for sure. Yeah. Well you did the last one, Bring the Family. You did with Nicolo, who's famous for not overthinking things. Yeah, No, he's no overthinker. Yeah, he's an underthinker. That could be his next album, could be Nicolo the Underthinker. Yeah. Yeah, that was where he got his nickname, the Basher. His motto was bash it down, tarted up. That's how he made record, bash it down, tarted up. But you didn't tart this one up. You just bashed it down. Now we bashed it down pretty much, well, Jerry. They did a bit of tarting. They did Christian Stellemer and Daniel and put a little string section. These guys what blows my mind on Jerry's band is these guys. These are young guys who are schooled musicians, and they can play anything. I mean, Jerry hasn't playing jazz We're goodness say, but they can play songs, and that's to me, that's a rare combination. They come from a country music background, you know, sort of so they've played with country musicians. In country musicians sort of backup vocals in a different way than in a rock and roll tune or you know, any other kind of music. You really listen to the singer and you try to emote as the singer does and try to accent the phrases that are really important in the line. And you know, there're just some some unwritten rules about how we do that here, especially internationale. Yeah, it's true, it's very true. And that's what happened. I mean, I felt like I was playing with a group of singers or just painting around him. Well, that's that's interesting because when I think of you're playing, Jerry, you know, you are this virtuoso. You're the world's best best known dobro player. You're not to the dobro with like Eric Clapton is to the guitar. You're not going off on your own, or maybe you do and I just don't haven't heard it, but I almost feel like I think I remember. I can remember the first song I heard you play on. It was I don't Believe I've Met my Baby with Alison Kraus, and I can still remember that solo. If I could sing, I could sing it for you. But you have this very kind of melodic it's not background. But how do you compliment what's the singers doing with your and not overpower the singer with what you're doing. I'll tell you he had ten thousand hours of schooling in the Nashville session tradition. It's a discipline, it is, actually yeah, yeah, there are you know, don't step on the singer, you know, stay stay out of the singer's range. You know, don't detract. So there's this thing, you know, that this sound spectrum that you don't want to cancel anything out, so you don't want to get up in the singer's range. You kind of stay away from the singer and stay around the singer and sometimes playing nothing, playing and playing nothing can can speak volumes, you know, instead of playing notes. So when you say his range. You literally mean his vocal range. You stay out of the vocal range. Yeah, oh, I didn't. I've never heard that. You play above a blow. Where I learned that was from Brian or Hearne, who produced Emmy Lou Harris's first records, and I was doing an overdub for Brian and he said, that's all great, except he said, stay out of her range because you know, you get up there, we don't know which one of you it is, you know, and you might cancel out at or something that she sings, and so stay away from that little box that she's in and it works. Wow, I'd never heard that. That's completely fascinating. He's brilliant. I mean, Brian or hearn Canadian Toronto guy and just amazing producer. But after the Emmy Lou stuff pretty much he's kind of stopped producing. He was amazing and I learned a lot from him. Ricky Skaggs, did Rodney kraw all of the guys that surrounded, you know, in the Emmy Lou Harris or but we all learned how to make records from Brian. Yeah, he's just a genius. I just feel that you've given me some secret that should be locked up somewhere. It seems like everybody kind of knows it, but it's unseid. And when you say it out loud, you know, stay out of the singer's range. You used to listen to records and you hear that. You know, that's why you can hear what the singer is saying. As a singer and songwriter, from my point of view, I can tell you that there's plenty of me musicians who do not go And as Jerry was big, and I was thinking, you know, it's not like he doesn't hit a note that I've sang at some point in a song, it's just where he does it. Do you guys want to play a song now? And then we'll keep talking. Does that make a great idea? We'll play your song. Here's the lilac, the famous lilacs from Ohio that aren't in Ohio. You man her there on a New York City stre you were throw lean upon your shoe, trying to write the great book, but it really had you shoot with a bad case of win a time blue. You drank her down to the ragged samtime share the taxi to carry her home, and she left her handkerchief there beside you on the seat, as if to emphasize that you were all alone, smelled like springtime, and you were just a boy, and all the lilac sino Hi, All the lilac sino hi. There you go in the city streets, in the thirty winter snow, all the lilacs sino Hi, hil. She is the love story you speak up when you talk to Sam at the bar, But it's in the details. Your story always fails me. Your close but no cigar, And you might see your own ass in a double whiskey glass, but cannot erase her smile. And you'll never write it down, never find her in this town the fanom dreams and fingernail fires. It was springtime and you are just a boy. And all the lilacs seen, or how all the lights seen, nor how in the city streets and the dirt and winter slow, all the lilacs see RhI. So you beIN her handkerchief till clean white linen shoots, and you want make your beIN crawling you imagining her there, and you're tangled in her hair, and she smells like flowers, and it's springtime, and you are just a boy. And how the Lilacs FINOHI? How the lilaxino Hi? There you go in the city streets and a doted winter snow. How the lilaxino Hi? Hi. That's John Hyatt and Jerry Douglas with All the Lilacs in Ohio from their new album Left Over Feelings. We'll be back with more after a quick break. We're back with more from John Hyatt and Jerry Douglas. On a previous show that Malcolm and Rip did with Jack White, Jack White said you could never you could never write a good song about a tesla old contrary, Jackie, Well, then you always had to write about Oh you know, why is it we have to write about old technology? But then you wrote the first the first song on this album, which is Dynamite, isn't about an electric Cadillac. Maybe because it's not a tesla, it's a Cadillac. What made you want to write a song about an electric car? Well, first off, writing in a song about a Cadillac is sort of in my dna. I guess I've probably written a couple it's dreaming. You know who who wouldn't want an electric Cadillac that goes a thousand miles between charges. Bring it on, you know, I'll order one if you know. If I got the dough, I want an old one with an electric motor. World. Sure we can retro fit. I'm thinking about it now. Jack whites it. He's from Detroit. He shouldn't even say the word tesla. That's probably well, I mean point taken and Jack Jack, I get it. I get what he's saying absolutely. But it is true that a lot of the technology, like you know, there's still trained songs because people used to tell the time before they watches by the trains. They still sing train songs. But everybody's got to watch now. In fact, nobody has to watch because everybody has a phone. And I can't think of a good country song about a cell phone that's interesting. You'd bring up trains. When I first came here in nineteen seventy, I lived on Music Row. In those days it was a much more humble business, and all the publishing companies, all the riot songwriters houses were next door to the publishing companies, which were in houses, and a lot of the studios were in houses. Coming from Indianapolis, I had had no clue what a country, how to write a country song, or even what you know. I mean, I knew about Hank Williams, and I was about it. But I got a deal with a publishing company and I was in a house full of young, hopeful songwriters and I remember asking this kid from Birmingham. I said, so, how do you write a country song? Because he was you know, that was his thing. And he said, well, you're gonna need a train song, train song, a murder ballad, something to do with the fire. Did you write a train song? Then? I did train to Birmingham and I wrote it when I was nineteen. You know, it's really because of this guy, Richard, I can't think of his last name. Why did you show up to Nashville to be a songwriter if you couldn't write a country song? I had met a guy named Bob Frank who was in Nashville, but he was from Memphis and he was a folk singer. He had a deal with Tree Publishing company. I met him the year before I moved here, passing through Nashville. He said, man, you got to come down here. This is a good place. And so I went home and spent the year kind of trying to get a little dough together and eighteen. I came down to Nashville and a thirty five dollars corvet that I bought from a buddy burned five quarts of oil on the way down. It's only a three hundred mile trip, and check the gas and fill it up with oil. That was it. And I came down here and I went to different publishing companies the first few days, and I made a tape which I thought was my opus, you know, where I played all the instruments and we bounced them back between two Wallen Sack stereotape recorders I had. Buddy had a pair of them, and so I made my masterpiece and I brought it to Nashville. But it was all these bad songs, terrible songs, trying to kind of be a rock guy. I played him for three or four companies and struck out, and I saved the publishing company that Bob Frank wrote for. I saved it till last Tree Tree Publishing, and I called the guy and said, you know, I'd like to for you to listen to some of my stuff. And he said, do you have a tape? And I did, but I lied and I said, nope, I don't have a tape because it wouldn't get me anywhere. I said, I'll have to come in and play him. This turned out to be Larry Henley, who was the lead singer for the was at the New Beach or the I Like Bread and Butter, remember that song I love? Yeah, he worked for Tree, So that was the guy that I called. And he said, well, okay, it's it. We don't usually do that, but come on in. And I sat down and sign him three or four songs. And I have no idea why they decided to sign me because it was just quirky singer songwriter, weird stuff, didn't have anything to do with what's going on in Nashville. They were refreshed by that. Apparently, I don't know, but it was not good stuff. But God bless him. He brought the boss down, Bud. He killed him, and they said, well, what do you want? And I remember what Bob was getting as an advanced weekly advance, and I said, I want twenty five dollars a week. Yeah, I said, They said, okay, so I was a professional songwriter. Wow, And I thought i'd you know, I thought I'd made it for Christ's sake? Was it a good life? Did you like it. It's where I learned. I put in what's Malcolm's thing about ten? I mean I started the ten Thousand Hours when I was eleven, but I was really started working on it when I got here. But you probably met a lot of people once you got here that turned you onto hod It. Oh absolutely. I mean there was a guy Bobby Braddock wrote for Tree at the time. When he wrote, you know, he stopped loving d I V O. RC and, but he was a character, a lovely guy, and he was sort of my little mentor. You know, he sort of patted me on the shoulder and you know, kind of like, you know, those quirked little songs are right, It's okay, just keep riding, keep riding. Yeah, he's been on the show two or three times. I think he's like, he's pretty amazing. Yeah, incredible guy. I want to talk about your next song on that because and I'm gonna go through every song, but I thought it was so great after long Black Electric Cadillac, that you have a song called Mississippi Phone Booth that you know is not in the present day, because well, maybe maybe I haven't been to the Mississippi. Maybe there are a lot of phone booths there still, but I doubt it. I doubt there's even one. If there is a place with hass phone booths, it's in mississip Tell me about that song, how it came about. It was one of those COVID songs. I was reflecting as when you hit my age, you tend to do. There's more behind you than there is in front of you, so they tell me. But anyway, I remembered sort of my last my last drunk, which was a spree, and I was down south. I had come to Nashville, made a record that I don't remember making, and then I rented a car. I brought a gal over from Holland, who I met, and I said, I'm going to show you the South, and we drove around. We drove to New Orleans, so we drove to a coast of Mississippi, Gulf Coast. I was drinking quartz of vodka and twenty four packs of beer, and I had eight balls of cocaine being sent to me from my dealer in Nashville. And then I couldn't stop or weeping, and I couldn't get drunk anymore, and I couldn't get high anymore. It was the most amazing thing. It just this girls sitting there like, what the hell am I even doing it? You know who what swallow this guy? And so anyway, I just it culminated at three in the morning at a phone booth at a gas station with the just just as that opening verse states bugs everywhere the gas station light and basically trying to call home. I was I was married, it's time for going to say it's kind of quality life. I was hurting and time, but I called home and said I'm done. I like the line where you say tell Jesus I'm out at times. That is a great just a great line. And maybe this is why songs about modern technology aren't as interesting because they don't connect people in the same way you're talking to an operator, which I thought, yeah, so lovely. Well, you know how how it went on the long distance calls on the old phone booths. They did interrupt you when you when your tie is up, and I'd be like, oh wait shit, I don't love the sorry conversation over. I think the most atmospheric song on the album is I Keep wanting to say I'm in Nashville. It's I'm in Asheville. It was titled differently. I originally titled the song left Over Feelings, but the chorus, of course, is in Asheville. Yeah, another winner of a fella in that one. I love that guy. We're leaving somebody and saying I've messed up, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. At the same time he's driving away, he's kicking himself in the ass, but he can't stop doing it. Tell me, just as an example, Jerry, when you sat down to produce that, do you have an idea immediately when you heard the song? This is how it should sound, This is how I want the instruments to move in and out. Or is this just something you'd sit down and people start playing in the studio. I think we sat down with the band and we just started playing. We write charts, okay, we write, we write out these musical charts. In Nashville, it's a number of system So I sat down with a band and we just started playing the song, and it got this sound all on its own. Mike Seal was playing electric guitar, and he had this really beautiful tone going on, and and all of these things were really beautiful against this song that's so sad and so you want to grab this guy, you know, and straighten him out the whole time. But there's this really placid music, you know, underneath it, and it's beautiful. The song itself is the chord structor, and everything is just really beautiful. And we just played did that. We didn't really pay attention to the lyrics so much. We separated ourselves from the lyrics and just laid down this nice bed of music for these words, for these heartfelt words to lie upon. Yeah, it sounds like a collective ache that you guys made. Do you respond one of the lyrics on faster songs, because you've got a couple almost rockabilly songs where you guys are louder and kind of rocking out a little more. Yeah, this song dictated that we stay to the ground and not jump up, you know, no erratic behavior. It went on the rockabilly kind of you know, the faster songs and with and we are listening to the words. I didn't mean that. We just divorced ourselves completely, hurting my feeling. Yeah, I knew that. I saw the look on your face, so I'm straighten to say the words they were great too. Their words were good too, But we were words the faster songs. Yeah, you are listening to the words to get clues about what to do, about how to play against it. We should we should play that song. That would be great. I'm in Ashville. I'm sorry. I guess I really dropped the ball in this game we were played. I thought I giving it my just to get us back to zeal Or on some scoreboarding here. I'm in Ashfield. I'm sorry all throwing in the town. That's sunlight ruled the mountain. I'm the rain. It chased me down. I could feel the heat from your face. Lord almost turned around. There's some things you can't come back from. If there's some things you won't go through. I'm in ashfil I'm sorry. I wanted this with you on road. I never travel to a place I never been from the east, left old feeling. A vision of you comes up again and you're dancing by the radio in some hotel room. In my mind, I'm in Ashfield. I'm sorry for leaving you behind. Oh, I'm in Ashville. I'm sorry for leaving you behind. That's amazing. It occurs to me that I think one reason I love that song is you don't actually say anything about Asheville. Do you know what I mean? It's like usually people say, well, I'm not even going to ask you what Asheville means to you, because it's I don't want to wreck it for other people. But I love those songs that are about cities, but they don't say anything like I'm in this city because it's cold, it's raindy reminds me. It's it's like, um, that's how I got to Memphis by Tom T. Hall. It's like that you don't know anything about. It's just it's just like if you got a broken heart and stuff, well that's how I got to Memphis, and you're like okay. And it's also got the I'm going to get this wrong. Some things you can't get back from. Some things you can't come back from. If there's some things you won't go through, that seems to me the theme of almost the entire album. To me, Well, I didn't. I don't mean that in a funny way. I mean, so many of the narrators in this album are people they're thinking back or they're trying to go back to things and for whatever reason, they can't get there. And you've been through a lot, but you have to go through these things. First. There's a lot of regret on the album about not being able to go back. Were you thinking that when you were writing it. I think it's less about regretting, just more about pointing that out. I mean, some of us look at where where we've come. A lot of it's look at how how far we've come. That's really the story. At the end of the day, we're gonna take a quick break and then we'll be back with more of Bruce Headlam's conversation with John Hyatt and Jerry Douglas. We're back with the rest of Bruce Headlam's conversation with John Hyatt and Jerry Douglas, and just a quick heads up. There's talk of sexual assault in this next section. Tell me about light of a Bringing Sun. Yeah, that's pretty much just an accounting of my brothers. He took his own life when he was twenty one. I was He was the oldest of seven kids, and I was the next to youngest, so I was eleven. It's like any kind of traumatic event in a person's life. I've sort of dealt with it, you know, as I've gone through life. I was relieved when I wrote the song you have to kind of get some help and work on these things. But I'm reminded of what Guy Clarke used to say about his songs. And he played a song and we'd go, oh man, you know, we'd be stunned, and he'd go, yeah, you can't make that shit up. So and so this was one that you can't make that shit up. It's just a pretty much just at accounting. Why do you think it took you this long to to want to write that song? Things come when they come, and it was such a as I say, it was such a relief to write it, and I think I've done some work. You know, the family basically blew apart. It's like it says in a song, family basically exploded, as families will when when a child takes his own life, or even that child that dies. And I didn't really know about recording it, to be honest with you, but I had sent the song to Jerry, so I must have thought that it was something to consider. Glad you did. But anyway, Jerry, I said, Jerry, I don't know about that. I think I called you after I sent the songs. I said, you know, I don't know about that. A lot of the burning, so it was pretty dark. I said that people need to hear this song. It is very very personal. I mean there are things down to you know, found him in a cornfield and the line that Reedy got me and the song was talking about what his father did, selling uh burn orange and avocado kitchens all across the Midwest. I mean we've all been in houses that had those, you know, an avocado refrigerator or stove or hey, but he built one. He put one in for my mom. That's right. Yeah, there was so much personal stuff about it, but it's happening a lot. People need to hear it and need to just need to raise the consciousness and raise the awareness of it. I worked around that song that was We framed that one in how do you mean you wooked around the song? I put it in a place in the record for a couple of different reasons. It was right after, you know, a pretty raucous kind of song, you know, before it the record needed to come down to the needed to make a dip. And also when you're making vinyl records, like we're talking about records now, vinyl records, the closer you get to the center of the album, the more distortion you pick up, so you can't put a real loud song in the middle because it's going to be distorted. You're gonna hear so much cross talk. Mean, the grooves get very very small. You mean it like at the end of side one when you're making a record and decide one and decide two, you always put a quieter song there, you know, And I put a little space between it two. So on a CD, so you get you actually get a chance to think about it before the next song hits. You kind of built in a side one on the side two on the CD. I did? I did? I put a little more good, more space in there. Speaking of old technology, are you still thinking about records? I'm still thinking about records even if I'm making It doesn't matter what we're making. I think about pacing according to the way we used to do. Vital Well, you know, records now make more money than CDs. How about that they outsold CDs last year? Yeah? Absolutely, are all the songs details in the song like he wanted your brother wanted to have a clothing, he did. He wanted his own clothing, So my father put him to work. He was a sole proprietor sold kitchen equipment, and he was a very clever guy. He had his own team that would go he went to these home shows and he would show women shopping for new kitchens what he could do, what magnificent kitchen he could install for them. And in those days, there was no digital support or anything. So he had these little, tiny, you know, miniatures of cabinets and he could arrange him around on a twenty four twenty four inch surface. He was a good salesman. He was excellent, and he was a great storyteller. So he put my brother to work, and my brother didn't want to sell kitchens. He was the golden child as the states, and my mother adored him. There was a lot of weight. I know people who've lost kids, and in retrospect they're often well, you know that was the one, and you know they don't want to say I loved him or her the best. But at the time, were you conscious that your brother was the golden child? As you say, I'm just gonna let it all hang out, Okay. I knew he was a golden child. I worshiped him. He was so cool with the skinny ties and the skinny pants and he was so hip that he put on a dance and actually brought Joey d and the Starlighters from New York City, these kids. He got these kids together nineteen and rented this place and had Joey Diana Starlighter's play, you know, Peppermint Twist for God's Sake in Indianapolis, Indiana. But he was also a predator, a sexual predator, and he raped me when I was very young, so he was my hero. He also had abused me, so it was it was a it was a lot unopened over the years, and it took me a lot of time. Yeah, I'm not the only one, you know. I talk about my abuse because I think it can help other people as well. I know plenty of guys that were abused when they were little kids. Did you have to forgive that part of him in a sense before you could write the song? I guess the song was probably the final bit of forgiveness. I mean, I've I forgave him a long time ago. I know. I mean I know that it wasn't who he you know, wanted to be, and that he was driven. You know, this stuff comes, this stuff. It's like some of these genes they come out of the womb attached to you from generations past, you know, so there's no telling what propelled him to, you know, have a life that was so so heartbreaking. Yeah, I mean you said it. There are some things you can't get back from. There's some things you won't go through. Yeah, I guess so. But you know it's a god. I mean you to turn to your left or turn to your right, and you can talk to a person who's had a hell of a harder ride than you have. You know, that's my that's my experience. Anyway. I just want to ask about two more songs, which is Changes in my Mind and Sweet Dreams, which sort of feel like two sides of the same coin to me, a little bit one a little downbeat, one more upbeat. Changes in my Mind's got It's got a very complex line, which is you find changes in your mind in somebody else's heart. Can you tell me a bit about that? Yeah? I just think of my own marriage of thirty five years, and my mind has been changed by the love of my wife continually. That's what happens to me. Maybe I do that as well with her and with my kids. I don't know, you know, there's something about music. When you're performing music or they're playing music, you can have the worst argument of your whole life. You get in the studio or wherever you are playing the music. As soon as you start to play the music, it goes away all that stuff that's talking about the heart of music. Which that's what we do. Yeah, I mean, because we're all tortured. But when we get strap on these guitars and go out there and not even perform for people, but just perform, just play, it saves anything that's going on inside you that you don't know what to do with. It actually is more than a band aid. It gives you a time, time to think about it. It's healing. All right. Well, I'm going to leave it to you guys to figure out. How do you think we should round this out? What do you want to play? Just play sweet dreams okay aims like that eating honey from the casket, And I thought about you. I haven't been in that neck of the wood. I guess I'm long over you. It's getting hard to leave this hollow. My family has been two hundred years over letting me go a little while to this sweet dream disappeared. I was U bone back mountain, hitch higging in the dark, not a light for our route. Things were looking pretty star Now I think about that star and night all my eyes well up with tea, letting me cry a little while until this sweet dream disappeared. Step one time in New Jersey, by the side of the route, and I thought about your warm hall as I shivered in the cold. Now I've stayed in fancy hotel with Crystal Shandely. Let me stay here for a little while until this sweet team disappears. Got a ride from a shoe sus He said, I'll never come this way ever, and say built the new rule. I don't know why I did today. That's getting harder to travel. It gets harder every year over Letting me go a little while until this sweet dream disappeared. Eating honey from the catskin, and I thought about, you haven't been in that neck of the wood. I guess I'm a long overdue. We were a long time together, and I've kept your memory. Let mis stay here for a little while until this sweet dream disappeared. Let me stay here for a little while, until this sweet dream disappeared. That was just beautiful. I think I spoke too soon though about Jerry, because you started to tear it up there a little bit. I think maybe when you tour, you should be the first guy ever to smash a doughbro on stage. When you're done, it's a perfectly good dough bro. Yeah, just at the end, just one night at the end, just get a fake one and just smash it with the one that I want to do that too, but I just can't. Just bring it out. Just bring it out now. It's the time you helped me breaks the time that was wonderful. This was such a thrill and the album is so beautiful. Everybody should listen. Thank you, It was a real pleasure talking with you. Thanks to John Hyatt and Jerry Douglas for singing and chatting so candidly with Bruce. You can check out all of our favorite John Hyatt and Jerry Douglas songs at Broken Record podcast door. Be sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel at YouTube dot com slash Broken Record Podcast, where you can find all of our new episodes. You can follow us on Twitter at broken Record. Broken Record is produced with helpful Leah Rose, Jason Gambrel, Martin Gonzalez, Eric Sandler, and Jennifer Sanchez, with engineering help from Nick Chafee. Our executive producer is Mio Lobell. Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries. If you love this show and others from Pushkin, consider becoming a Pushnick. Pushnick is a podcast subscription that offers bonus content an uninterrupted, ad free listening for four ninety nine nine. Look for Pushnick exclusively on Apple podcast subscriptions, and if you like the show, please remember to share, rate, and review us on your podcast app. At the music with like Candy Beats, I'm Justin and Mitchell