John Frusciante Returns, Part 4

00:00:15Speaker 1: Pushkin. Today we have part four of our John Freshante Returns series. This is the latest installment of Rick Rubin's ongoing series of in depth interviews with the Red Hot Chili Peppers guitarist, and if this is the first interview you're hearing, make sure to go back and check out the first three parts and also John's appearance from earlier in the year promoting Unlimited Love. Today we'll hear John Fuschante played through some more of his guitar parts. Then he'll explain how we came up with some of the best guitar melodies and modern rock history. John also talks about how playing along to classic heavy metal albums from Black Sabbath and Van Halen, along with dancing all night at Drum and Bass Clubs, helped shape his style on the two thousand and two albums. By the Way, he also explains how listening to Brandy Destiny's Child the Wound tang Clan helped influence his playing on Stadium Arcadium. This is broken record line of notes for the digital age. I'm justin Mitchman. Here's part four of Rick Rubin with John Fraschante from Shangola So over the course of touring for Californication, did you feel like you came back guitar wise to where you could play like you could before in terms of your strength and skill. I did, But when it came time to record, by the way, I didn't want to go back to that kind of Jimmy Hendricksy way of playing File Change. Yeah, like I wanted to go even further with what I felt were the real developments on Californication. I was really into sixties music at the time. I was really into surf guitar style, like I'd learned about certain things because I played a bit that way on Californication, mainly being inspired by by the guy from Bow Bah Wow and stuff. But I guess Johnny had shown me the Ventures and stuff, and then Jerry from Fugazi showed me the Shadows, which I didn't know about, and Johnny wasn't super familiar with either, and they were really good. It was just like an English version of surf guitar music, and they were really popular in England from you know all the Beatles stories I hear, yeah, well, especially because they were Cliff Richard's backing band and he was the biggest rock I didn't know that. Yeah, he was the biggest English rock and roll thing before the Beatles. So that was just Hank Marvin, his guitar player sort of had his side thing was Hank Marvin and the Shadows and they were huge, like they were an instrumental band and they were like they were one of the biggest things in England with the kids before the Beatles. So I got really into learning while we were touring for Californication. I got really into learning how to play all the Shadows stuff and playing along with the Ventures all the time, and I was seeing the commonality between that surf guitar sense of melody and synthpop sense of melody. To me, they have something in common. And so for when when we started writing for By the Way, I think I just I didn't want to have any blues in my playing. Like if Fleet Block brought in something that seemed bluesy to me, even in a funk way, I didn't like it. Like it wasn't so much I was trying to control flee or anything. I just really didn't like, yeah, anything that had that feeling. It was like just at that time where I had landed really great blue song on the new album by the way, right, yeah, carrying Me Home, Yeah yeah. A working title was New Blues as you Remember, but yeah, like you know, right after that on Stadium Arcadium, I was really into blues and I had a new take on it by that time. Like by that time, I was playing along with Jimmy Hendricks a lot and learn learning his improvised solos a lot, like in a more detailed way than I'd ever learned them in my whole life. I was listening to a lot of modern R and B at the time, so I was listening like Destiny's Child and Brandy, Brandy was my favorite, and her sense of rhythm and her sense of melody that blues, the blues that's in that I felt like I want to take that feeling and combine it with Jimmy Hendrix's guitar playing style, like to have Brandy be my basic reference rather than like you know, Elmore James or whatever the old things. You know. It made it feel fresh to me, like and I was doing a lot of what we were talking about last time, where you're you're not playing straight across the bar, You're not you're not on a gridge, you're not on a sixteenth note gridge, you're kind of speeding up and slowing down and playing because she was singing like that and really good, and method Man was Woutang in general was rapping like that, especially on their first couple of records, and so like I was like obsessing on all that music and feeling like I got to put this kind of rhythm in my solos, in my playing and stuff. So like there were times where I was like, because of the Frank Zappa, you know, education, like there's one song we believe on that album stage and Marcadium, and like I'm for a lot of the reverse guitar part. I'm playing quintuplets, I'm playing five against four, but I'm doing it in this way that I'm hearing on rap records because when they're doing it, they just have five words and they're going to land on the one on the next bar, sixth word, yeah and so and so like as long as you land, as long as you punctuate what you're doing on the one, you can fit any any amount of notes in between. And that's what I was hearing in a lot of this R and B and rap. So that's what sort of got my excitement about incorporating blues into the band again, that a new version of the blues, Yeah, a way that it hadn't been played before. Yeah, So that started with By the Way, where like and when By the Way started, I had all these ideas for these certain types of melodic things. And I was learning more about chords than ever because I'm practicing piano for the first time in my life out of songbooks. So and that was affecting the way that I played guitar because I'm seeing chords more clearly than I'd ever seen them before, understanding the Beatles music better than I'd ever understood it before. And Yeah, continuing to listen to the synthpop, also going out to drum and bass clubs to dance every week. So the song by the Way was the result of having been a club the night before playing drum and bass and sometimes jungle. Would going out dancing inspire the way you played guitar, Yeah, exactly, Like how would that work well the song at the end of that album Venice Queen. Yeah, the way I'm just trying to play get I mean, it's it's it's not like it's a way that nobody ever played the guitar. I don't know if I can do it justice right now. I'm not super warmed up, but for the idea. But the song has a whole intro it's slower, but then it has a fast part that comes in and the rhythms I'm doing on the guitar, if you listen to it, it sounds like a jungle drummer, like improvising, Like it sounds like the kind of stuff people were programming than like. So it's particularly interesting about that, is the right hand, I imagine it's right unusual, Yeah, the right hand I'm trying. I'm I'm I'm basically there's more parts to it than that where and see if I remember the chords where I'm going even mart So like the way I'm playing there is definitely I'm trying to play the way I hear the drums at the drum and Bass Club. Yeah, Chad's kind of just going. He's not really doing a lot of ghost snares that I can tell. But but I'm trying to play all those all those kind of rhythms that because it's the chords are I can say it's an ordinary chord progression. It's cool. It's a cool ordinary chord progression, but the rhythm makes it sound like very new, very different, right, and like it has a who like energy. But you never hear beat Townsend playing a rhythm like that, right, Yeah, like that's that that would be a good comparison. But yeah, not that precise rhythm. It wouldn't be that. No, it sounds almost like a programmed rhythm, right yeah. So so yeah, so so that was a big influence on it. And what's cool about that? Like I never knew that, right, but it always sounded interesting to me. I never knew why, right, But it's like this doesn't sound like the who you know, there's something else going on. I never stopped to analyze what it was. Yeah, but hearing how it happened, it's fascinating. Yeah, because I would go it was on Thursday nights. There was this club, Concrete Jungle in Silver Lake, so I would go there and dance all night. There was this girl who used to go there with me, and yeah, I'd just be dancing. So when I get to rehearsal, like, I'd want to put that kind of energy into the into the band. A lot of the time that was just the rhythms that were going through my head. And but when we started the record, as you remember, I had to there was another side to it, like like I wanted to do like I was really into The Damned at the time, and I wanted to do like I wanted to do punk, like in a way that the band hadn't done it, you know, like I wanted to do real punk, you know, like inspired by like early English punk and stuff, and so I thought we would do the My original concept was that we would have like these sixties inspired melodic songs I was. I was really into Discharge as well, I remember, and I just that we would have like sort of straight punk, not straight I don't know what you call it, but just like real punk is opposed to punk inspired pop, like I wanted to do like actual I was writing songs that to me sounded like like actual punk. So I thought the album would have this like you know, start contrast between really pretty things and these punk things. And at a certain point you said to me, the punk things that you're bringing in, they're good, but it sounds like I've it's I feel like I've heard it before. These melodic things that you're bringing in. I feel like I've never heard anything like it in my life. Yeah, you know, so you definitely like guided me away from from continuing in the pretty early on as I remember it. But we had made we had written a bunch of stuff, like there was there was a certain amount of Yeah, I really loved the Damned, and maybe it was just like I feel like I've heard this before, but I had that feeling before, you know, like I didn't really get gun some roses because I felt like I really experienced this. This doesn't feel new to me. But a neat thing to me about that album is that kind of what we were talking about about the chords or this implied thing that's underneath, but what Flee and I are playing over them is something that that's separate from that. That's how it was with musical styles for that album. Like to me, there is a punk energy there in the record despite that we never we're never going in that sort of distorted you know, like obviously punk direction. And at the same time, another sort of underlying aspect was that every time there was a day of rehearsal that Flee and Anthony couldn't go for whatever reason, maybe there was a game or one of them was busy with something, so we were supposed to not rehearse that day. Chad was always up for rehearsing anyways. So me and Chad, from time to time throughout the writing of that record would get together. I'd just say to him, let's play the whole first Black Sabbath album, and me and him would just go there. And all he needs to do to learn how to play a record is listen to it while he's driving in his car on the way. You know, he can just play it that. It's the fact that it's drums. There's only so many drums. He all he has to do is listen to it to be able to play it. Like for guitar, you have to do a little more like work. So we would play whole albums of Black Sabbath, Van Halen and Ozzy Osbourne. We were doing Diver, Madman and Or at least we were doing a bunch of the songs from that and Blizzard of Oz, but it was just guitar and drums. But we were doing these heavy metal rehearsals of Deep Purple as well. We were doing whole We did the whole album of Machine Head, whole album in rock like so we were just pick an album and we'd show up and we'd just play that whole album, not straight through, like sometimes we'd have to stop so I could explain that the arrangement, No, it does this part for this long or whatever it is, because he hasn't focused on it how I have. But like, but we'd get through the whole album of all those things, and when I hear that album, I hear that in the connection of Chad and Mice playing like it's in there. It's not. There's no there's no real heavy metal on the album, but it's not an album by people who can't play heavy metal, you know what I mean. Yeah, Like Chad and I were really dialed into it at the time. I always feel like it's cool to have things like that. I feel like it seems like if you're good at any aspect, even if it's not being demonstrated, it makes what you're doing better. It has to, right, it has to, and it has not only does it have to make it better, but it it informs it in some way that that can't be explained. Right. Yeah, No, totally. I feel like it's it's magical to have things that you can do that you're not throwing on the surface for people to see. The way I play on that album, it's it's a real synthpop based, a new wave based, surf guitar based style. Yet at home I was playing along with Van Halen and playing those solos like I was probably never as good at playing Eddie van Halen stuff as I was at the time of by the way, and nothing, nothing like that. There's not a hint of that in the way that I play. I feel like it's in there still. There's a certain confidence between the way that I'm playing those simple things that I'm playing in a certain precision, in the accenting of things, and in the rhythm playing. It's it's a lot of things that I got from his style that just aren't the obvious, you know, frontal parts of his style. So yeah, I think I think it adds a magic to things when there's something hidden. Yeah. What I don't remember is my favorite song on that album, although I don't remember and I haven't listened in a while, is that universally Speakings on that album, isn't it. I like that one a lot, Yeah, And that one has just a it doesn't sound like any other chili pepper song, and it definitely sounds like it's rooted in you know, maybe early sixties music more than late fifties music. Yeah. I was just watching something that made a comparison between two things that universally fits into Oh okay, So they were talking about the first song on Brianians. It's an album Here come the warm Jets. It goes those you know, don't let it show, and the drums are going and then waiting for my man. Uh, it's the same rhythm basically when you put that. I saw it on YouTube. Somebody had put those two things next to each other and they said, look, the the Ino song is obviously inspired by the Velvet Underground song, and universally speaking, I don't know if I made the connection the you know thing, but I was trying to do something like Velvet Underground. I thought we should have something that's just like a straight rhythm. All our songs have these funky, kind of syncopated kind of rhythms to them, like that would be cool if we had a song that just had a real straight rhythm to it like that. So I don't, you know, I don't remember specifically what song, but it is the same type of rhythm as waiting really interesting, So I don't I don't hear Velvet undergrounding it at all, right, at all? Yeah, but yeah, for in ours, it was a so that's partially like coming. Yeah, I was definitely trying to do something that was a Velvet Underground type groove what I saw as being their type of groove. Yeah, and it's also the drumbeat if I remember correctly, it's more like a motown. It's like a I think you might have added a drum bot might have, but it's definitely different than everything else we ever did. It was. It's a really unique song, right, and I think we might have obos on it too, Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's really cool orchestra stuff. Yeah. That was inspired by Sunny and Share. Right from my perspective, is just like, oh there's a sound on Sunny and Share, So I never heard on anything else, Like maybe we can get that instrument. That's so cool because I remember I remember specifically trying to do a velvet like like thinking it should be a straight rhythm like the Velvet Underground. But I also remember you being the one who suggested that drum beat. Yeah. Yeah, if I would have known we were going for Velvet Undergroud. I wouldn't suggest that that's what's so cool about it as well. That's what I was saying, is that the EUMO song has that drum beat of universally speaking, wow, Waiting for the Man has that drum beat wow. Yeah. So so all three of those songs have that beat. Yeah. I have a feeling everyone got it from Motown. Yeah, I guess. Yeah, you're right. Even though everything comes from the Velvet Underground, everything else comes from the Motown comes before that probably comes from Motown. Yeah, you know, totally. And that's really what Louid wished he was, was a soul singer. I think I remember Anthony sang that song different than all the other songs too. Yeah, he's sang in a lower in a lower key than he normally sings, like like a bassy voice. Yeah. So cool. Yeah, such an interesting record. I know, there's so many there's so many surprises when I listen to that record, like after having not heard it from like, WHOA, how the fuck did I do that? I didn't know anything about synthesizers? How did I do that? That's so cool. Yeah, we'll be back with more from Rick and John. After the break, we're back with more from Rick Rubin and John from Chante. I think there's something really fun about putting on instruments you don't know how to play. Yeah, do you know, Like, like it's the same reason that the first version of a new style of music is interesting. It's because the person who's making it doesn't even really know what it is yet. Yeah, you're in the process of figuring it out. You kind of you can never beat that, No, it's so excited. Yeah, Yeah, it's a good argument to always like pick up a different instrument and just get sounds out of it. Yeah, it's my understanding. David Bowie when he record records, he'd have the person still trying to figure this out what to play, and he'd stopped them at the point where they were just about to figure it out. That's when he'd stop him. Like he'd be like, that's when he caught what he wanted to catch. He doesn't want to right before they figured it out, Like, he doesn't. He didn't want the sound of it once they're confident with it. He wants it just as they're as it's just becoming clear to them. Yeah, that's the group that he wanted to hear, you know, so he'd often stop people like before they felt I think they've only done takes. Would often would play a song once or maybe twice before, and no one else in the room had ever heard the song before. Yeah, so like you played along whatever sounded right and that would be it. Yeah. But again, like aside from the Velvet Underground, like that that group where that the car is generally doing for a lot of that song, like where where you're going hard soft The Ramones like they have that in their music, like over and over. It's a lot of fast down strokes, but a lot of the time where these chords coming from, because these are really interesting chords though, you know, you tell me about the chords that universe is. Yeah, you know, I was just playing along with the Beatles a lot and learning all their songs and feeling more free with chord progressions, and I'd ever felt like previously the stuff that I've done on like Blood Sugar and Californication, it felt more like formulas that I knew that progression works. It's in a lot of songs. This chord progression works. It's in a lot of songs. You know what I mean this was where by the way, I'm starting to sort of create chord progressions from scratch sort of, there's not a yeah, it's not a it's not a formally, it's almost like I started seeing chords as harmonies rather than chord progressions, per say, So I'm I'm seeing it as a certain kind of harmonic movement, and I'm starting to do interesting what's called modulations, where like when when I'm doing this, you're basically like in an A major thing. We're still in an A major thing, but when I go that chord is unexpected, that's all of a sudden it has a B minor feel to it. When I go to that G chord, I haven't even gone to the B minor chord, but all of the sudden, you get a minor even though it's a major chord that I've gone to, you get a minor feeling when it goes to that Gee. I'm starting to figure out things like that that doing these kind of I was starting to see these patterns that they used in classical music and stuff, but comprehending what the idea was. Not taking somebody else's pattern, but seeing, oh I see I can instead of thinking of it as chords, I can think of it as just general harmonic movement. The first two of the chords of the Bram Bram is um also I never again, I never heard it in the song, but hearing it just like that played slowly, it reminds me of the chords and the led Zeppelin song. I don't know the name of the song, Bran Branne. I think he's in a different tuning in that song, so I can't play it. But like I was just playing along with a couple of Beatles songs that I would put in this category, like like um okay and you're you know that and your bird can say, like it sounds like it's gonna be one of those you hear the first two chords, it sounds like it's going it's not the same two chords exactly, that idea of where where where you feel it's moving down, sending it in a form that we're expecting. Yeah, and then but then that g to be minor changes it. So but yeah, that that that led Zeppelin song. Oh. I remember seeing a YouTube video where a guy is taking apart one of your guitar parts and he's saying that you purposely detuned one of not not not that you changed the tuning, but you de tuned one string slightly. And that's the only way to play the song. That anyone who plays a song and plays it wrong because the secret is de tuning. Is that possible? That true? It wasn't unconsciously, I just was out of tune. Yeah, like like it's scar tissue that that's about. My guitar tech told me about that, like like, uh, it was. It was a fascinating video, right, yeah. Like like I guess you're gonna you're gonna sound a little I get that all the time when I play along with old blues records. Yeah, a lot of the time. Like electric blues players, you think that think they're playing different sixties. No, you just have to tune your guitar to it because each one of their strings has tuned a little a little different, like Albert King and stuff like that. When you're learning a song, you gradually figure out, Okay, his string is here. You just try to match the strings for it to sound like it's not for it to not rub. Yeah yeah, yeah. So in that case, I guess one of my strings was a little out of tune and it sounded good. So nobody ever said like you would have been said if it hadn't sounded good, you would have been the first one. Yeah, but like clearly like it sounded good because you know, like on synthesizers, like on the d X seven, you can do these micro tunings where you can have like a different amount of notes to the octave. You know, you can have you know whatever, nineteen notes to the octave or something, and so you have you have notes in between what the normal twelve notes that we all use, and there's a lot of good expression in there by using these notes there in between, if they're exactly in between in a precise kind of way. And so I guess I was out of tune in a way that really worked, you know, because that doesn't sound out of tune to me. But yeah, it doesn't sound out a tune to me either. Interesting, And next time I listened to the Scar tissue, I'll listen for that. Yeah. I couldn't remember what song it was, but the the guy really went in depth. It was good. It was a good Uh. It's so interesting people who get into stuff, who can look at it in a much deeper way from the outside than you know you weren't aware of you made it, and you weren't aware of it, you know. Yeah. I wanted to point out that. A lot of the time, like because as we're talking about these things where something was the source of I remember it as being the source of something. A lot of the time it was usually because I'm playing along with so many different things at the time. I'll see a few songs that have all the same thing in it in some way. Maybe it's in a different key, maybe it's you know, but I'll see some theoretical sort of theme that a couple of songs have in common, and I'll just be like, oh, that's cool, those have that in common. I'm gonna write one, Yeah, you know what I mean. It's a lot of the time and I might remember it as one being one, but a lot of the time it's more in three different songs like oh, I wonder what Yeah, And a lot of the time because I notice it, like that thing you're talking about where you're going, Like I'm noticing, I start thinking like I must be noticing it for a reason. I must be supposed to write something like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Because it's generally the way my brain works. Yeah, me too, Like I feel like if you hear the same thing three times, it's like, hmm, yeah, something somebody wants me to notice. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Should we look at some guitar parts and some songs from the new albums? Sure? Fun, Sure, let's do newest album first. We'll work backwards, okay, hopefully. The first one I noticed was on my little list was Eddie Well Eddie just Fleet came in. Fleet Fleet came in with the bass bassline and and uh, and I just started playing that melody. The part I wrote in that song is the bridge. It's still interesting to talk about how you hear what Flee's playing and what you choose to play. It's fascinating because I don't think anyone else would play what you played, right, It's just yeah, he came in with that, with that bass line, and I came in with the melody that remember do you remember what you remember? What the bass line does? I know, I know what the tonality of it is, yeah, but I don't know. And basin, but that's the bass also sounds more like a guitar part than a bass line, because I'm playing I'm making up a guitar part that's the chord. I know what he's doing basically implies in F seven A G six and like I don't know what he's playing. IM stand. One time we did a sound check where Flee played guitar and I played bass. Yeah, and we played Chili Pepper's songs. Yeah, it was so funny. I bet it was great. It were completely different songs. We you know, we didn't know. We didn't know. No, Like we tried to play each other's parts based on our conception conceptions, and neither of us had any idea what enjoying. It was really comical. It's kind of cool though, you know. I for it's my understanding that in the Police they all knew how to play all the parts. They could have switched instruments and done a show that maybe that's just a fake. I don't know if that's a good or a bad thing. I thought it was pretty neat, just that they're that inside the songs are I don't know, just weave together in this way. That they're simpler than our songs for sure. But but like I thought that was cool that somebody would would know it. But like I'm incapable of playing bass, like Fleas. Fleas are capable of playing guitar like me, so it's we have a sort of a vague idea of what the other one's doing. You know, we're good at listening to each other, but yeah, I can't play like each other. Yeah, and I love the way you can complete each other's thoughts in like an this example, Flee came in with the bass line and what you played with it is not again, I don't believe it would be what anyone else would play, and that combination is what makes it sound like the Chili Peppers, you know. Yeah, and the same when you come in with something what he chooses to do, it never seems like the regular thing. Yeah. Yeah, So Eddie van Halen, we we just found out that he died, I guess that morning or the night before or something. And then that was our first rehearsal and that was something Fleet happened to have written. So that was what was on all. If you write it on bass or did you write it on piano bass? And yeah, again the verse I think I was. We're again doing that kind of thing where where we're in harmony to each other. If you heard just my guitar part, it wouldn't sound like the song the song, right, but but it sounds like I was kind of thinking of part of so part of the orchestration of the song. Yeah, yeah, And I guess for Gods you must have had a certain amount of things like that, because because that first part it reminds me of for Godsy just when they would sometimes do these sort of soft sections. I don't know that's what I was thinking of when I was making the guitar part to that, but I guess I'm just doing that same thing that Plea and I've done a bunch, you know. Well, I feel like it's part of It's like, in some ways, it's become thus sound of the band, even though it's still something to it's a jump off point for it to do a lot of other things. But it's a specific thing that you guys do that I don't hear anyone else do. Right In the same way, like Depeche Mode has a sound that could be part of the Chili Pepper sound is the way that the bass notes and the guitar notes harmonized together to create a chord that is implied but nobody's playing it. Yeah. Yeah, so that's what we're doing there, and we just needed a bridge. So I think there was a face off for a bridge, and do you remember what it was? No, I just I just it's the bridge to the song. Just had that idea, I don't remember what. We would just all start by doing hits all together go yeah. So do you have any idea of why that occurred to you coming out of what it's coming out of. Yeah, it just seemed like the song had such a nice flowy thing, So I thought, what would what would be good for a bridge? I was thinking of Black Sabbath, even though there's no distortion or anything obviously, but the contrast. But to have the whole band do those hits together and leave these big spaces. I just thought that was like a Sabbathy kind of thing to do, which is we're that. That That was what I was thinking because because I really wasn't listening to Sabbath while we were for some reason. That's like all the records in the Californication, I was always listening to Sabbath, like this album, these two albums, I wasn't listening to them, just as I was playing along with sometimes the first two AUSI albums. But like I can't think of what song or there is that that does that. But but yeah, I just thought, like, have something where the whole band is punctuating this chord progression, doing them as stabs altogether, and then for the second half of the bridge play it as a groove instead of stabs. Cool. And it's cool that it the idea of looking for contrast in a song that the most interesting thing that you can do in the middle of a song that needs another part is not necessarily the thing that obviously goes with what came before it, right, Yeah, yeah, to do something different like and it's also as I listen into these chords by themselves, like I knew that if Fleet was playing the roots of those chords like like that these chords would sound good. They're they're they sound pretty like partial like it sounds strange to have that open string there, but but with the bass it ties it all together, you know, like I and I had I had a feeling that it would you know, also probably sounds weird on acoustic but um bella, So yeah, there's a there's a song. Um well, basically Fleet came in with the verse to Bella and course I could find this, but um hm, so this this is a song by a group called Black Heat in two three four, five seven one two three four, five six seven one two three four, five six seven the it's a really cool funk groove and it's in seven four, which is like and Fleet came in when and that's just something that I'm into because I collect that kind of music, and like, I really I thought that was, you know, a cool song. But Fleet came in with a funk groove and he didn't realize it was in seven four. I was gonna say, if you didn't count it, I wouldn't have realized that was in seven Yes, yeah, yeah, exactly, such a good yeah, it's such a good groove. Yeah. And so Fleet came in with something in seven four, and I immediately thought of that song. I was like, oh, this is great, Like we can do a funk song in seven and so work that out with the with the drums. Like I've made a lot of my electronic music in seven four, and my friend Aaron has made who I make electronic music with, has made a ton of music in seven four. So it's real familiar to me at this point. Like, aside from the being into aggressive rock when I was growing up, Like in the last twelve years, I've spent a lot of time in that time signature. So I was showing I was showing flee, like we'll see. There's there's two main ways that you can break this up. It can be a bar of four and a bar of three, but how I hear this group is that it should be a bar of three and a bar of four, like, uh, the drums like being like one. I don't know if I can play it and say it, but one two three, two three four one two three one two three four three four so cool. Yeah, So it's just it's just that's why I like, nothing's it's weird about it because three sounds pretty natural to people. Four sounds pretty natural to people. It's just the two ones next to each other. They just happened to add up to seven, you know. Yeah, so we had that groove and then the chorus came from just doing a faceoff and yeah, I just went in the other room. This maybe one of the ones. They's somewhere like I don't understand the underpinning musical underpinnings, Like I don't know that I didn't know that it was seven four and I know then when I was working with Anthony on the vocals, there were some cases where it's like, for the sake of the vocal, we would try to shorten something, and when you try to do an edit and it's not the way you think it is, it creates havoc. But we didn't. We didn't know it going in because it doesn't sound like it doesn't sound like a weird groove. It sounds like very straightforward. Yeah, until you try editing it based on oh, the vocal is going to continue hanging and it pauses. Then we come into the chorus. Can't do it, you know, like it just it it goes crazy. Yeah, And it doesn't make sense because it seems so normal right until you try changing it. Right. So yeah, and that's the same way that that Black Heat song is. Their chorus is in four four, like the rest of their songs in four four. It's just that verse groove that's in seven And that's the way our song wound up being as well. So really, you know, Fleet hadn't heard the Black Heat song. I just knew it it just the second I heard him come in with a funk thing in seven four. I just thought of that song and yeah, so it might be kind of hard to play him this guitar, But yeah, was it obvious to you that the in the chorus there's an a half and a behalf, that the behalf would be the lower half instead of starting with the behalf and men doing me vocal. No, in what you just played, not just an intonations that great, but oh yeah, that's the way I do it. It's like, is that what you're talking about? I think so right. I'm just you know, I think ever since, by the way, time, like when I write chord progressions, I'm thinking of it as almost as if it were voices in harmony. Like so it's it's there's a melody a lot of the time in there that's being implied, you know, like when I play that solo at the end, Yeah, I'm just playing what I hear is being the melody that's already implied in the chord progression. It's just you're hearing it with other notes, so it so you don't hear it the same way. But one of the ways that that heavy metal, you know, Eddie van Halen playing wound up influencing, by the way, was because there's a lot of chords on there where I'm doing really difficult stretches to do everything I'm trying to do between the chord and the melody that's weaving in and out of the chord, and so there's a lot of stuff that's like challenging guitar. Wise, if somebody who doesn't play guitar hurt it, they or even somebody who does play guitar, you might not think of it as something that sounds difficult to play, but it's actually a really awkward stretch, which edievan Halen was known for. But it sounds like he's doing a big stretch because he's doing sort of fancy lead playing and stuff. But so to me that that chord progression is just sort of me hearing chords more like a group of melodies as opposed to a chord progression. So like if you broke it down, it's a pretty simple common chord progression. But between the ways that I'm inverting the chords and the fact that Flees playing notes in the bass that aren't that wouldn't normally be the notes that the bass would do on those chords, a person with a good ear for chords like me wouldn't necessarily know what they're hearing because inversions are the thing that sort of an inversion, meaning you turn the chord around. The lowest note in the name of the chord isn't the lowest note in the chord anymore. Some other note is the lowest note. So it throws your ear off because it's like it's like sliding let's say half an octave. If you could play a chord in one octave, or you could play it in an octave up, you're playing it in between those two in between exactly. So like and so consequently, with that kind of thinking, you can do you can play chords that are actually far apart, but play them so they sound like they're right next to each other. So like if I went that actual if you went by the chord name and just played the roots in the right way, that would be like that's with no inversion, but doing an inversion right next to each other. Yeah, they're right next to each other. So you play little games with that between. You can often do things like the base stays on one note, but the chord is moving because those two chords happen to have a note in common, and it works for the base to stay on one note. Even though the chord you're changing, just little like tricks like that. That's what I noticed. The Beatles did that a lot when we were making by the Way, and so I just started getting really into like sort of tricking the ear of the listener by being clever with inversions and stuff. Super cool. I can't remember the working title, but there's song on the record called Roulette. Do you remember what the working title was? Yeah? Yeah, So Roulette was that one that started here in the studio in the other room where me and Chad and Flee were playing and Flee's just playing like a funk baseline, like he's playing some kind of funk groove, and then I was going, yeah, so this one came out of a jam in the room. Yeah. So we were jamming and Anthony came up to me and he was like, what are those chords that you're doing, And I said, just Genesis type chords because that chord sequence that I'm doing. The reason I'm able to write something like that is because I've done a thorough study of Tony Bank's keyboard playing in Genesis, and I know his style pretty well. And so anytime I want, if somebody's playing, if the bass is just staying in one basic tonality. If the bass is just playing in one mode one key, I can improvise chords all over the place really fast, and stuff that modulate and that most guitar players wouldn't play because it really is a keyboard technique. It's a keyboard. Yeah, it's it's the mind of somebody who knows classical music really well and understands that like like most guitar players, you would never think if the bass players playing because that chord regression actually has a G major chord in it, you just wouldn't think if the bass players centered on F sharp, you just wouldn't think that it's one of the chords that you could play. But if it's got a flow to it and it resolves in the right way, you can, you know. And that's what Tony Banks playing has taught me that. You know. That's even cooler is that it's classical knowledge through a keyboard player transposed into guitar. Yeah. I understand classical music better from learning Tony Banks stuff than I do from any others. So it's amazing. Yeah, he makes those types of modulations so apparently simple sounding, you know, And do you think he's doing it if you're guessing that it's an intellectual thought or it's just this sounds good, Like I just know how to play, and this is what I would play. What do you think it's like a computation. Well, he definitely developed the style gradually. Like the very first Genesis singles, he's not playing that way yet. He was really into Keith Emerson from The Nice who was doing classical things the in like sixty six, he was starting to incord sixty seven. He was starting to incorporate like classical ideas into a rock framework, and Tony Banks just wound up with his own way of doing it. But they Genesis had like for a while they're progressive band, but then they had hits where he's still playing in that kind of style. He just really figured out how to Of all the progressive bands, Genesis I think made the best pop music when they decided to go pop, you know, And he just had a really good mind for figuring out how to simplify things. They're very complicated, you know, or that used to be complicated before he did what he did to them, you know, like something like they had to hit this song called Turn It On Again that goes, he's changing keys, but the bass isn't changing keys. It's so fucking cool and and uh yeah, it's just an example when you that songs in an odd time signature, the keyboards modulating the bass is not. This is a huge hit. When I was a kid, when I was like twelve years old, I heard it on the radio. I was like, whoa, what is that feeling? You know, I never heard that feeling in a song before. At the same time, my dad was a classical pianist, so like I had a reference point for it, you know. But that music spoke to just everybody. You know. It's interesting when the complex can be presented in a simple form and compete with something simple. Yeah, do you know what I mean? It's it's it's interesting. And I again, I don't I wonder if the people who are making this are trying to make something complex sounds simple, or if they're just playing music the way they hear it. No, because he was Janesis made an effort to simplify, like because because when Peter Gabriel was in the group, and for the first couple albums after Peter Gabriel left the group, their music is intentionally complex. And the songs are long and and there's no there's no verse chorus verse type things. Very rarely is there. And they just made an effort to simplify. But he retained a lot of these aspects of the essence of his style and he just made it work as pop music. But there was definitely a clear it was definitely clear that he at that point he made an effort to simplify. But even in the progressive stuff, compared to Beethoven or something, it's it's simple. And he probably doesn't I get the impression he doesn't think of his knowledge of classical music as being particularly broad. But I think, you know, compared to someone like me, it is so. Yeah, all through that early Genesis and I say early, I mean Peter Gabriel era Genesis stuff, he's doing things in that same style as he does on that Turned It On Again song. It's just but more long winded. It's not not as repetitive. It goes further. We'll be back with the rest of Rix conversation with John for Shante after the break. We're back with the rest of Rix Conversation with John for Shante. We'll just do one more song and it's not it's not a recent song, but it's so I always loved of yours. I don't even know where it is that well, we don't have to go over the chorus of that, but that Roulette is Lett has that chorus, but show me, show me um. That's another kind of modulation thing. So like the chorus, both halves of it and differently, but both feel like modulations. You think you're just doing a real simple chord progression that you've heard a zillion times, but you don't expect this chord to come in and that takes it somewhere else. That also you've heard a million times and then and then, but you don't expect them to be together, you know, and then and then this time it ends differently. So again it's because modulation is just when I'm writing chord progressions, it's what's interesting to me, and especially that you can do it in a way that doesn't sound like you're trying to be fancy. David Bowie used to do it all the time and really in ways we're really simple, and so a lot of the time when I write songs, that's what's going to make me think that something's interesting. It adds a dramatic layer to it. Right, that's really interesting. Reminds me of like sixties instrumental music. Yeah, and at the same time, like punk songs because they're all major chords a lot of the time, they're often doing modulations within themselves just because of which major chords they're sticking next to each other. Like it's not like it's just a thing coming from progressive rock, and people who understand classical music like like like that has a modulation. You would expect the like that, you would expect the G to be a natural G. But because it goes that's a modulation right there. It's that last chord is a little like unexpected just because that's a remote song there. But I'm just showing how like three simple punk chords still have have the modulation and then you can do it in really simple ways. Yeah. The other song I wanted to ask you about was the death song. Oh my song, dying song. Yeah right, it's so good. Uh yeah, again, it's because I'm listening to the Beatles. I'll yeah that that I'm that I'm seeing how to go take these these chords that were strange that I might not have understood, how to find a context for Before that, I was starting to like see how to use them. They sound normal when you hear the flow of them. But there was a time when I would just be like, I don't know what to do with that chord. You know, After a while I understood, Oh, okay, if if you're in a key the whole step lower than that and you're just playing a minor kind of predictable thing, that chord can work, and then augmented chord can be. Yeah. I don't know. I just that's that's written at the same time, I guess is By the Way. It was like a four track recording I'd made at that time, and you tried to get the Chili Peppers to do it, and I would and I wouldn't do it. Yeah. Yeah, So we were so Yeah, we were in the studio for By the Way, and you were like, why don't we do it in the band? And I told you, like, no, I have to keep my solo music separate from the band. Yeah, like like yeah, because it was like, you wrote this beautiful song, you write beautiful songs for the band. I don't understand. Yeah no, But I, for some reason, I had a clear in my head that when I when I rejoined that, Like, once I realized that I could write songs again, I was like, I'm going to keep my solo music separate, like stuff that I write for the band, Like basically it was anything I wrote lyrics to was me my music, I see. So if I was inspired to write lyrics to something, I considered that my music. And if the idea was basically just a chord progression or just a melody or just a riff or whatever, then that was for the band. And if the band was writing a record, I generally wasn't writing lyrics, Like lyrics were something I more did on tour, right, like like because I wanted to make sure that the band got my best stuff, you know, while we were writing a record. So but that was written prior to having written, by the way I guess, or I was also curious to see what the band version would sound like, which I never got to hear. Yeah, I mean I would be. It was sung in a kind of a high falsetto voice, so it didn't really seem like something that would be natural for Anthony and you were saying, like switching to a different key, But it wasn't just just like how I told you there was those certain bands that I didn't play along with their stuff that wasn't so much that I thought it would be a good idea, to be honest, I was superstitious about it, like like it came to me that it would be a good idea to have a couple of things that that you never play along with, since you play along with everything that you like, just just leave that breathing room for And it just felt like something inside me was telling me to do that completely. And it was the same with my solo music. It was like, to keep your head on straight. You should have this music that you do that's not a part of this machine. You know, that's not a part of this personality, these personalities, that's not a part of their career, that's not a part of you know that you should have a side of your musicality that's separate from all that. And I think like in retrospect, it turned out to be a good thing because I had I had a writing path that never got it never got like mushed up with the band and the way like it's like some people like when the when the songwriter sort of is the band, Yeah, you never you never got lost in the band. Yeah, exactly. I think there was a fear of that, and there was the desire to always know that I had a place that I could go that didn't have anything to do with with all the things around being in a popular band. It was like a it was like having a having a little sacred temple or something, you know, just and so like you could you could have never talked like you tried, but like you would have never no matter how much you tried, no matter how good your arguments would have been, nothing would have overridden. No, I'm glad, No, I'm glad that that's the case. Yeah, because I've been able to you know, not everybody who's in a band's able to do that. I've been able to have a sort of a musical several musical lives completely separate from the band, without that ever interfere with what I do with the band. I'm always able to when I am playing with the band, I'm completely like immersed in it. And it feels like now there have been cases where like my Cigarette is a song that started as a solo piece of music. I think that's actually flee song it is. Yeah, so how did that start? You remember the story of that. Flee made a drum beat on his phone and then he played bass to it, and he played a SyncE. He played a synthesizer over it, and so cool and so yeah. Because my plan was to have no drum machines, no synthesizers, I just wanted to play guitar. Fleet brought that in and when we did in the studio, I programmed all the drum machines and synths and stuff. But I'm basically doing just the better sounding version of what fleas doing, kind of like what we were saying about Depeche Modes earlier demos. It's just like I just programmed it more skillfully, like like, uh, made better sense sounds and stuff. But Flee fully played it on my d X seven, and I was turning the sliders because I had I had made a sound that I could sort of modulate in subtle ways while while he was playing, so we were actually like both at the keyboard at the same time, him playing it and removing the sliders. When he did the basic U, what is it that's my son's favorite solo on the album something like that. Yeah, and so so yeah, so like it's such a funny song. It's such an unusual song. Yeah, some of the sense overdubs were things I thought of, But even some of the overdubs were things like Flee was sitting here and he was like, what if you just have a part that does straight rhythm just one note? And then I converted that into a into a synth part on the modular. But yeah, there were other drum machine things like Drown or the drummer started. It used to be called Drown, and that started with drum machines with at my house with me doing it and the slow Rodeo song, and the Slow Rodeo one also was drum machine at my house. But my studio got torn apart because I had to move out of my house just a couple of months into the writing. So I thought we would do a lot more of that, like do like weird electronic even after we'd written songs. My idea was that we would do a weird electronic version of it just to see what happens. Yeah, and it could even be a part of the song. Yeah, that you never know what you could wind up doing with make weird electronic demos. But we wound up. I wound up being basically homeless for the whole time we were making the records, so I didn't really have a studio. So I think those are the only songs that Black Summer had a demo with a breakbeat did. Yeah, well, I don't think I ever heard that. Yeah, you heard it when we were recording it. We listened to it and you talked to Chat. We were talking. You talked to Chat about how to get the drums groove to be more like the break being cool. Yeah, no, no recollection. It's so funny. It's like it literally happens in the moment and then it's like it never happened. I think we realized we were playing it too fast. I think the demo made us realize that we had to get into a funkier groove with it. And it's not a funk song, but it needs to have a sort of a funk groove at the core of it. And I think also because we recorded like fifty songs, yeah, it was all blur. Yeah. Yeah. For me, I have these memories because I'd been living with them for longer than you. Like, Black Summer was the first thing I wrote for the but still, like fifty new songs, it's impossible to grasp. No, I couldn't get my head around each other. It was so weird because like normally making a record, even when we made Stadium where we had, you know, maybe thirty songs or something, I was able when I was playing guitar solos and overdubs to go, Okay, this will be the one that I do this little trick on. This will be the one that I play in this style on. You know, when when you have less songs, you can cover all your basses and you know, like, okay, I've I've done I've done this thing that I do on this one, I've done that thing that I do on this one. When with this album, there was no way for me to know what I had done. I couldn't tell if I'd even repeated myself, like I had to know. It's list so much information. Yeah, it's so much information. Yeah. I was really relieved when I realized I hadn't played the same solo on two songs, you know, or done the same riffs on two songs, because it's it's a It was just too many to have your head around it once. Yeah, it's amazing. I still can't believe Anthony wrote all those words. I know, I know. It was like forty eight tunes. Yeah, yeah, four or five normal albums. Yeah, yeah, that was done so much work and the words are great. He did so good. I kept acting him to stop, and I kept wanting to stop the writing process earlier. Yea, like thinking, I don't want to overwhelm and these are good songs. I want them to I want them to write lyrics to them. I don't want them to get overwhelmed. But we just kept writing more and more. Yeah. Yeah, I'm I'm a big proponent of keep writing because you never know, like you never know when the best song is going to come. So if you stop, it's like they don't always come. You know, you've never written this many songs before, right, so it's we know it doesn't always happen because it's never happened before. Yeah, but if they're coming, you gotta get them. Yeah. Whether you decide to use them now or not, it's fine, but when they're coming, you gotta get them. Yeah, you won't write the same songs that at another time. It's true, you'll never write those songs again. Yeah, it's something that's come from electronic music for me though, Like I used to think of it like you're talking about, you know, And now I just I think of it like kind of like what we started talking about, Like I can make songs to order, you know, like when Anthony liked that that one chord progression that we used for Roulette, just went my room that night and wrote a chorus to it, or you know, or or when when I was thinking, I think we need another heavy song and I wrote that nerve flip, like like I just felt like that sludgy kind of feel. I was like thinking about what we had and I was like, we don't have anything like that. And I was listening to Flipper and stuff, and just like like, uh, I just listened to Flipper the other day on my beat twalk. It was so much fun. Yeah, So electronic music, the fact that I can sit down and just start making breakbeats or just start programming a drum pattern, just start making synthesizers, sounds, not parts necessarily. Pretty soon a song just comes. I just sort of I think of the guitar the same way, you know, Like like when I stopped writing, I honestly thought I was doing the best because I stopped writing songs like three times when we were writing these songs, remember, and it was and it was just like I just felt that I was doing the best thing for Anthony to have the best to give, to give the songs the best chance of Anthony writing over them. Yes, and I had no idea that he would, you know, write forty eight full sets. I thought it would beware. They were one or two left, and he's just like, I gotta get him, Like I don't, he would say, He's like, I don't really have an idea, but but he was so wanted to get everyone because he loved them. It was so beautiful and it was so it was such a beautiful like outpouring from him, and the lyrics were so good, like like it wasn't like he'd done an assignment or something. There was so much heart, so much self Like That's something for me as a rock songwriter, like I've never been able to put my heart out there so much as Anthony does, to put myself out there, to make myself vulnerable to that degree. Some people might disagree, but that's that's that's where I feel like my shortcomings are as a lyricist of rock music. It's just like Anthony has this rare talent of being able you you're really in his head when you're hearing him. He's really putting himself out there for you and making himself vulnerable, heavy or sad, sad. It's unbelievable and it's not it's real. It's like he's feeling it and we get to hear it, like we get to hear what's in his head. It's unbelievable. Yeah. When I started doing the backing vocals and really reading the lyrics as opposed to just hearing them more to hear what he's doing more so than what he's saying. Yeah, yeah, Like it was intense, Like, like, God, him in good shape for the road though, you know, five months or whatever. Yeah, No, he's been kicking ass on the road. But yet. Do you know that Negative Trend record that's Will Shotter, this band before Flipper. Yeah, Oh my god, that's great. Yeah, it's a single. It's really good, and his bass is so good in it, and the songs are so good, really like top notch punk songs on that. I remember the name Negative Trend and I remember that they were like a popular band. Yeah, that's his band before Flipper. Yeah, and and yeah, his vibe is like all over it and they're really good songs. One of the songs was covered by an LA artist Rico Rick. I think covered Meadhouse. I got to hang out with him in San Francisco, was Rick Rick? No, Yeah, no, I know. Remember you used to tell me that I reminded you of him. No, you don't remember that. No. When when you came over to my house, you brought the Flipper record with you and you gave it to me, and you said, um, I used to have this friend that was in this band. He died. When I'm with you, I feel like I'm with him, I see. And that was all you said. I And you wanted to see if I liked the record. I put it on. I'd never heard it before, and I love that. This is great. But I never knew what you were talking about. And I've always wondered that thing that you were seeing in me, that you related to him. Was that gone by the time Californication? So that was only me at that time, right? So yeah, And it's just a spiritual thing, not a not It wasn't was it something about how we looked was it had nothing to do with physical right? Nothing physical right? It was more of the energy, right, Yeah, And it may have had to do with practices at the time. No, no, because I wasn't doing hero I'd never done Heroin at that time. Yeah, I don't know. It was just an energetic feeling of just like like that there was something else going on. Hard to explain, right, hard to explain. Yeah, that should have was going on in my head, and I'm sure other people experienced it, but it was really just impossible to explain to people what's happening. Sometimes I used to think, like, because you know you get goose pimples like on your arm or sometimes on your head, it was like they were in my brain. It was really like strong reaction to everything, not just pictures. It was all kinds of things. It was really intelligent voices. It was those things like goose pimples in my brains. It was just these explosions of like movement of shadow and light and things like that that had this form that not only did they inspire me when I was making music, but like when I made music, that changed the picture. So whatever I did change the movement of the shadows, and you just had to sort of stay a line with it. And it's one of the reasons that I was able to do something then that I've never really been able to do since, is play totally fucked up and wrong and have it sound right. Yeah. I could do it if I stayed in connection with that stuff, those patterns in my brain. And ever since, you know, I regained all kinds of talents and more. But that was something I've never really been able to be that like out yes and sound good, sound sound like yeah, like I'm doing that on that first solo record of mine that you released, And I've never been able to play like that since. And he has that in his bass playing, like even on that negative trend stuff there, these are punk songs with real clear chord progressions. He's playing wrong notes and they sound so right, Like, they sound so perfect it would ruin the song if it didn't have them. Yeah, I just sometimes people have some tripped out way. Yeah, it's a different connection. Still, you're you're showing me examples today on the guitar where it seems like it shouldn't work right, you know, it's still it doesn't make sense. Yet in the context of the song, it sounds beautiful. Yeah. Yeah, I looked for stuff like that, but yeah, it's done with a much more organizational part of my brain than what that was. That was just like whoa, what's happening in my head? Okay, and you think it's not luck, it's something else. Oh back then, Yeah, Luck is connected to whatever that was. It was happening part of it, but it's not the whole story. I'm saying. Whatever the power was that was putting that made it possible for my head to be that way that it was then has something to do with luck as well. It's like it controls the universe or something. Because I stayed connected to that thing all through the years of being on drugs. And there was one morning I woke up and it had always told me I was safe, that I could do anything and I'm not going to die. And I tested it. I came very close to dying many times, always got through it, got close to being arrested many times, never had a fear of it, and never got arrested. There was one morning I woke up and the voice said, your luck's run out. If you go out and buy drugs today, you're going to get arrested. And I got arrested that day. Wow, yeah, Like so what you know to be able to do something unintentional and random and have it just work out just because you're seeing something in your head or something has something to do with why some people go their whole lives and never break a bone and other people injure themselves all the time. All I know, I don't understand it. I just know there's some connection between whatever that was that was my state of mind, was those things that were happening in my head that I couldn't explain to anybody, and that I still can't really explain. There's some connection between that and luck. And I love the idea that it told you like you had a sense of complete confidence when it was appropriate. Yeah, and it told you, it warned you, Yeah, and it was it was true, it was right, yeah, wild, Yeah, it's wild. It was really weird. There's so much we don't understand. I know, if there's one thing, But if there's one thing I've learned from all that that I went through and in that first half of my life that I that I can't explain, it's that I don't know anything. No, none of us do. It's the mistake people make is that they think they know. Yeah, and we just don't know. It's why whenever I hear people getting strongly opinionated about things, where if I've ever had the misfortune to go through a period where all of a sudden I've learned about some new subject and I'm getting cocky about it and stuff, I always know I feel it in my heart like this is wrong. Like like we you you sometimes have the illusion that you understand things, and it's really a mistake to believe to take too much pride in that or to to get too cocky about it, because you're you're just seeing a little fragment of the big picture, you know. Yeah, And that's I think that's all we'll ever see. All we get to see is a little a little piece, and that's that little piece that we get to see is enough to keep us going. Yeah, yeah, you see, you see what we all are seeing everything we need to see to be you know. And it's like I think it's like a magic trick where I don't know that if we knew how it worked, it'd be better. No, I'm sure that that it wouldn't be better. I'm sure it would be a lot worse and worse than people could ever imagine. People strive their whole lives to try to figure it out, understand things, and there's there's there's no way I can say it other than straight to you like that. I saw. I saw the big picture of it several times. I was showing it. I see and and and it's way worse. Yeah. It's just like like we we tend to pick on certain things about the world is being imperfect. Yeah, and we don't know what imperfection is. It could be so much worse. Life it's so good. Life is so good. I'm very thankful to be here. Yeah, I mean too thankful to be here. And I'm thankful to be here with you. It's the best. Yeah, I'm so thankful to be here with you too. Well. I feel like we still learned done, but we have to do. We get to do another one one of these days. It was so good. It's endless. You never know where it's gonna go. Oh, thanks so much. I love talking about stuff. I mean I love hearing about the music stuff, But the the tangents are so interesting, Like I'll be up all night thinking about what we talked about. Right, I love it. As you heard, Rick and John will be back with more conversations soon in the meantime. If you haven't heard the other episodes in the series, picture to check those out, including episodes with the rest of the band promoting unlimited Love from back in April. You can hear all of our favorite red Hot Chiecopper songs on our playlist at broken record podcast dot com. Be sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel at YouTube dot com slash broken Record Podcast, where can find all of our new episodes. You can follow us on Twitter at broken Record. Broken Record is produced with help from Leah Rose, Jason Gambrell, Ben Holliday, Eric Sandler, Jennifer Sanchez. Our editor Sophie Crane. Our executive producer is Mia LaBelle. Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries. If you love this show and others from Pushkin, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription that offers bonus content an uninterrupted ad free listening for four ninety nine a month. Look for pushkn Plus on Apple podcast subscriptions, and if you like our show, please remember to share, rate and review us on your podcast apps. A theme music spacing, re Beats and Justin Richmond