John Frusciante and Anthony Kiedis

00:00:15 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hey y'all. Today we're continuing our run of episodes celebrating the release of the Red Hot Chili Pepper's new album, Unlimited Love, produced by Rick Rubin. We left off our episode last week with Anthony Keatis popping in to join Rick's conversation with guitarist John Frushonte. Today we have part two of that conversation between Rick, John and the band's iconic frontman. We'll hear Anthony talk about how some of the new song lyrics came together, the lengths he went to commute to the studio in Hawaii where he and Rick were recording vocals, and both Anthony and John give their accounts of John's third return to the band. This is broken record liner notes for the digital Age. I'm justin Richmond. Here's Rick Rubin, John Frushonte, and Anthony Keatis. How you feeling, Anthony, You're pretty good. God, It's very nice to see you. I wish this was in person because I've been looking forward to this moment for quite a while, but it's nice to see you on a big screen in front of me in your Shangrila. Anyways. Nice, you look very beautiful there in the in the environment, bringing back good memories of our last endeavor there. Yes, the memories are intense. Um, it's much less crowded here now. My fondest memories are from Kawaii. Yeah, it was incredible. That process was unlike anything I've ever been a part of and necessary. I would have never been able to get that quantity of work finished in any other environment. We've had a good run of interesting places, like I remember us doing vocals at Chateau Marmont for an album, and that was an interesting, you know, unusual circumstance, getting to go there every day and hang out and record. We've had some good ones over the years. Yeah, the Laurel Canyon House, the Chateau. John also had a room at the chateau during the writing of Californication, and John and I got a ton of good songwriting done in his room at the chateau. But Kauai was you know. I showed up with this forty some odd tracks of music that I had to write for and figure out melody for and arrangements, and the idea of waking up every day and just taking hours to write and think about lyrics and ride my bike and let melodies come to me and then show up at your humble little abode with not a lot of pressure, and like, you know, this pandemic could last for another week, or it could last for ten years. We don't know. But until we're done with this record, we'll just keep showing up to work. And that ambiance was magical. It was great, and it was I feel like we it was probably three or four months easy of just focusing on writing and singing five wow, five months, yeah, close to fifty songs. It's a lot of work, it is, and it was so nice to roll up and see you every day and get some of your your calm and your take. And it's nice not to be distracted. You know, in La we have lives and kids and people and traffic and a whole different feeling in the air. These days we did have. I remember we had a few windows where you had to take a boat to get to the house because the road washed out or bridge closed. Remember that, I do. So that was that was once in a few days. It was it was at least a month. And wow, you were super helpful and you're like, no, we're going to figure this out. You know, we have friends that live on the river and you can, you know, use their boat ramp and YadA YadA. And so I was showing up at an off time because the locals had set up a ferry service to cross the river and then these ATVs that would go up the muddy mountain to a road that would access your house. And I was showing up after the ferry had closed, but there were still these food barges with farmers. So in the beginning, I would just jump on a boat full of terror route and literally hundred year old sort of you know, ancient Hawaiian farmers and that barely spoke English because they were of you know, mixed ethnicity and had come over from Asia a long time ago. And and I loved it. I was like, this is really putting me in the right frame of mind to go to work. But then we we pivoted and we got a local surfer to just meet me at the mouth of the river and take me sort of along the coast. And then I had to hike up a hill next to a giant old hotel which was being refurbished, and that was psychedelic and jungle like, and I had to walk through a little mini river on my own and I had a backpack full of lyrics, and you know, running into all kinds of you know, people in bikinis, people that are you know, chopping down trees and forest and so it was kind of epic way to get to work. Do you remember if any if any of the either things that you saw on the boat or on the trip or on the hike worked their way into lyrics at all. So not exactly on the boat ride or that particular walk, but I would, prior to coming to your house every morning, I would ride my bicycle from my house to the end of the road, which was also through rivers and past beautiful trees and mountains. And in the song She's a Lover, which used to be called zapp, I had that song going through my head feverishly. The melody, the music, and that bike ride completely inspired the entire lyric the flowers pink on the tree but if you pick it to see will she be wild and free? Because I used to drive past the tree every day that was covered in pink flowers, and it seemed like a metaphor for a relationship. It's like you admire this thing as it is, but once you try to dominate it or pick it or make it, you know, adhere to your agenda? Will it still be wild and free? Probably not. Let's listen. Let's listen to unlimited Love you up for that? Yeah? Play? What is it? What is it now called? That particular song is called She's a Lover? She's a lover? Can we hear she's a lover? I will think on a chreamer if you pick it to see with the wild and free? You say you wanna piece? Is it for selor polies out after easy bullies outside the world? Within you been to the world, your team, to the breathe, the hume through the sun, to wonder what you want to do today? I'm your favorite kid. Let's be dedicated to the ones with She's so full of learning. She love she love, she love, she love love love. Man where coming? Okay? I will be a tory bet you needing me them when squeezing the mosquee day and when I'm falling asleep, Please get me something to keep me warm and kind of long time to do without your trust to know what out your form? Now is my batter? Less time before? Please look? Can I have a teas? I just want to live your feace any of the day, and I would say your Atlantismanta lover, she love, She's a lover, she love, She's lover on the men in love again, Rive, Amen, in love again, she loves Limon in love again, Love again, love Man, Where man, I will be at all, believe your knee, and where come and sweet and most fee I will be a me. I will, I will. That was great, so much fun to listen to. That guitar solo really put an unstoppable smile on my face. There's a tiny story worth mentioning about that song, which is when we were recording the vocal in Kauai, you were looking at the lyric sheet and much to my surprise, you you isolated the lyric unlimited Love, which really hadn't jumped off the paget at me, I was too involved in too many pages. You're like, that's a really good title, Unlimited Love. I was like, oh you think so, And you're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a really good title. I was like, okay. I made a mental note, and then I was keeping a small list of possible album titles, of which that was my least favorite. Unlimited Love. It was for me, it was at the bottom of the list. I had these other more Chili pepper esque titles, and when the day came and we were mixing the music and I went to visit John and Flee at the mixed studio in Hollywood. I was like, guys, do you want to hear some possible album titles? And they were like yes, and I read them my favorites and I was like, there's also this title that Rick was kind of keen on, which was Unlimited Love. And both John and Flee were like, oh, well, that's that's the title right there. Like are you sure because these other ones they're very interesting. They're like Nope, nope, Unlimited Love. That's it. It's funny too, because I imagined it as the song title. That's that's what I was. I was that was the pitch was for the song title. Yeah, so then then the pitch became but we can't now, we can't call the song that because we don't want to draw all of the attention to that song, which is, you know, something we considered more of an album track than a Hey everybody, look at the song track. Although I must say it sounds good in headphones. So now I'm going to ask John tell me about the process of coming back to the band this time. What tell me about what was the first talk of it this time? Yeah? Oh wow, which time? Which time? For those people who don't know, John left the band, rejoined the band, left the band and has now rejoined the band. So this is the second time you've rejoined, Yeah, second time you've reached joined, second joint. Yeah, yes, yeah. It didn't really talk about it until Flee and I were standing in my kitchen and chat. Had said something to me when I saw him at Flee's wedding. It's like, he misses playing with me. Me and him and Flee should jam sometime. So I mentioned it to Flee and just because you know, practicing guitars something I'm I was always doing even though I'm making electronic music, it seemed like it would be a nice soul cleansing thing to do. And it was within seconds after I suggested that that Flee was like, do you ever think about being in the Red Hot Chili Peppers again? So we started hypothetically discussing the idea. But there were plenty of reservations and things like that, But but Yeah, started to open up the topic then, and then he talked. He said he'd talked to Anthony about it and then, and Anthony seemed to find the idea interesting. So then the three of us got together and talked about it. Then Flee and Chat and I got together and talked about it about a week or two weeks where it was just sort of a possible outcome, but we weren't. I wasn't sure if I was going to do it. They weren't sure if if they were going to do it. It was just we were just trying to talk about it from every angle. I wanted to be sure that we were communicating and seeing it from every angle, just to make sure that none of us were going to wind up regretting it later. Do you remember the first time you guys jammed together again, you know, in this new incarnation. Yeah, by then I'm already in the band. That was the thing I was talking about, Well, let's play together and see if the old magic is still there or whatever, you know, But we went right past that. He was just like he wanted to concentrate on the topic of whether or not I was going to actually join. Wow. So yeah, we didn't play together until maybe a month later or something. At rehearsal. So it's so interesting for me to hear what John just said because I was not really privileged to those conversations. And I'm not exactly sure how it lines up, but I will say that John coming back to join and play music with the band was very much in the air, because Flee had not mentioned anything to me at all, not a peep, no, nary a mention of John f Chantey or that he was communicating with him or even thinking about that as a possibility. I knew that Flee was in a mood, in a disposition where he wasn't feeling his best self in the previous incarnation. For whatever reason. It just like he wasn't he wasn't on fire. And I started getting a sensation that I wonder how John is. I wonder if he would ever think of participating in any way in our music. Again, I haven't heard, I haven't spoken to him, haven't you know, really heard what he's up to. But I just got this sensation, like, God, it would be really nice if John would get involved. And I didn't think that he was interested in joining or playing guitar, but I was like, I wonder if he would like write a co write a song or produce a song or I just didn't know. I didn't know where to go with this feeling that I had, so I said to Flee, I was like, when we're when we're done doing what we're doing right now, I want to talk to you afterwards. Kind of important. And I was going to bring up this idea of John participating, and he said to me, He's like, no, no, no, I actually have something more important that I have to tell you. And I was like, no, no, no, let me since I brought it up, I'll just tell you what I was thinking. He's like, well, I think you're gonna want to hear what I have to say. I was like, okay, can it wait until after I tell you what I was going to say? And basically we were both saying the exact same thing at the exact same time, which was what do you think about John? And when I presented my thing, he's like, well, I was thinking of taking a little further and you know, maybe saying if he wanted to come back to the band. And I was like, what, I don't know? I mean, you know, yeah, have you spoken to him? Do you know where his head's at? Yeah? And He's like, yeah, I've actually jammed with him, and I was like, okay, okay, I'm a little a little behind here. And that opened the door to all of this. And I remember going to see John at his house where he lived, where he's lived for a long time, where he lived when he used to be in the band, and walking in and sitting on the couch with him and just trying to get a real sense of you know, is this coming from a place of love and and creation or does he still have a like any kind of bitterness towards me or us? And I did not feel any of that. I felt a great deal of resolution. I don't know if there's ever one hundred percent resolution because in a way, as people have too many folds in our brain to like tweak out on stuff. Speaking for myself, but I felt like whatever sort of animosity or resentment or all this stuff had had more or less been resolved. And it felt very nice sitting next to him on the couch. And then he said one thing to me which really made me feel like, this is a done deal. I have no choice. Come what may for better, for worse, for a disaster or wonder and He's I don't know if he looked at me or if I looked at him, or if it was just said, but he said I was born to be in this band, and I was just I was like, he is telling the truth, and there's no fucking way on earth that I'm going to stop that from happening or do anything other than get out of the way and just let it, let it flow. Because if someone feels like that, then that's supposed to be. And it was, you know, it was. Of course, it was terribly exciting a little bit. It's kind of a vulnerable feeling because, like John said, is the old magic still there or are we just going to be you know, some weird guys in a room trying to make it happen. But I guess, you know, I felt more confident that I did concerned. And then when we got back together, it was so raw and basic and starting from scratch that it just felt right. It felt like, oh, you know, we we have a lot of work to do to like figure this out, but what a nice place to be. And you know, John made some really wise suggest in the very beginning. He was like, you know, let's learn some old blue songs and let's learn some really old red hot chili pepper songs. So instead of like, you know, trying to get back into where we had left off or anything like that, it's like, let's go all the way back and just learn, you know, how to play some really beautiful, somewhat challenging but basic, you know, rock and roll kind of building blocks. And I thought that was so smart because I needed to do that. And then the rest, the rest of the writing and the playing together started to happen way more naturally. And I think because John hadn't written a lot of rock music songs for quite a while, he had in him a reservoir of ideas and chord progressions and arrangements and vocal melodies and all these things that he must have been kind of quietly keeping in his back pocket. That started to flow and and the process was on. It's like every time John would bring a gem into practice, you know, Flea would feel like, okay, I'll bring a gem, and then I would be like, oh, these guys are bringing gems. I better, you know, go for a very long drive and my Chevy and figure out, you know, something to add to the stew, which is, you know, part of our creative process, and it felt it felt really natural. It felt really natural and like no pretense or you know, expectation. It's just like, let's go all the way back to the beginning and just start from zero. That that's what it was like from my perspective, But I didn't know all these other things were going on. It's interesting. That's one of the things that I found fascinating about doing this podcast is that even when I talk to people who I know well, we know each other for thirty years. We made our first album together thirty years ago, and we even met before that, and in the process of talking about stuff, we learn things that we never knew about each other. Even though we sit in a room together every day, we never really interview each other. We never ask questions, we never go back. There's no reason to because we're always moving forward. But it's it's fascinating to, you know, hear the person who who you're in a band with have a different experience leading up to the experience of joining than yours, which makes sense because they had their own, but all you know is your perspective. It's fascinating to talk about these things. And for me, it's interesting when I get to talk to people that I don't know, but when I talk to people that I do know, I learned so much. It's amazing. It's amazing. Well, that's part of your gig these days. It's just it's crazy because unlimited love. I was there the day that you brought in the song, and I had no idea that you saw the pink flower from the tree. I had no idea that's where the words came from. I had no idea. Riding bikes with my son and he was probably trying to talk to me, and all I was doing was hearing this song play over and over again in my in my head. That that thing that I said to Anthony about being born to be in the band, by the way, like that was something that I that I always felt It was said more as a statement of fact than any kind of attempt to sell myself or something, you know, like no, like yeah, it was. It was definitely like a feeling that I just had to live with, whether I was going to you know, rejoin or not. That was just a reality of my existence that it felt like that, that that was on a on a universal scale, that was that was the purpose to my life, you know, Yeah. Sometimes we don't know it until we're outside of it or looking back on it that we realized, Oh, yeah, the reason, the reason I've been doing this all this times, like this is my reason to be alive. This is the reason I'm here. I can do other things, yeah, but the but my purpose is to do this. And it's a great feeling to acknowledge that, you know, like to feel it and to know I'm doing it, like I get to do it. And on the days when it's hard to do, which it's hard sometimes it makes it not easier, but it helps the challenge of understanding, well, I'm doing my life's work. Even though I don't want to go to work today, I'm doing my life's work. I get to do this. This is my contribution. I'm showing up. I'm going to do the very best I possibly can because this is why I'm here. Yeah, And it's a great feeling to have. It's a great feeling to recognize it. And I think it's a very powerful frame when you recognize it, because you can't make it up. It's like you recognize you get to eventually recognize it. But once you recognize it, it is like a superpower. Yeah, because there's ways, you know, I love challenging myself in different ways in life, whether it's with a type of book that's difficult for me, or whether it's learning music that's beyond a little beyond my ability or whatever. But there's something about being in the band that it feels like I'm trying from a place that doesn't require that much effort. I can be exactly what I am and try specifically within that set of limitations and not try to push myself outside of them. But I can get it. I can be in touch with the part of myself that was there when I was five years old, six years old. That's the energy that can go into the band. I don't have to try to be something that's taken a lot of effort, like I have to just be in touch with it feels like with the essence of who I am. It's beautiful. Yeah, And it probably speaks to the longevity, like when you're not trying to be something that you're not, you can just do it for a lifetime because that's what you are. And just just to be transparent about a conversation on the couch before you joined the band. I think one of the reasons that it was such a successful conversation is nobody was trying to sell anybody anything, Like I wasn't trying to convince you to do something. You weren't trying to convince me to do something. We were just you know, putting it out for what it was. And when I share that very intimate story, it's it's it's out of like love and emotion. Because that really struck a chord inside of me when you said that, it wasn't like he's trying to talk me into something. It was like he's being honest with me, and he's telling me something that's at the essence of his core and it's the truth. And you know, that was just something that it meant a lot to me that you were, you know, willing to tell me that, and I certainly didn't feel like you were trying to sell me anything. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Yeah. There's there's a feeling of comfort for me with Anthony and Fleet that I really don't have with anybody else. I think it has to do with so many things. It has to do with with going to that depth of musical connection and many at so many different times, and it might also have something to do with the fact that we went from being a club band to playing arenas together and nobody but us shared that experience, you know, which is a pretty real thing because that can make you feel very separate from other people. And so even if you're at odds with each other or going through some sort of personal disconnection, you're connected in this deep way despite all of it. It's impossible to have that kind of connection with with anybody else. You know, whether Anthony and I have talked over periods of time, he's always I'm always aware that like that who I am and what every every detail of my life the result of it. It is the result of that connection that I have as a soul with him and with Flee and with Chad. You know, it always felt like they were close to me. And sometimes that's a painful feeling because because you realize that that in some ways you were at fault in a certain area of the relationship, or in some ways at a different time, you might be bitter and see that it's the other person's fault. But when you put all those kind of blame things aside and just live with the reality of what it was that I have a closeness with those people. That's its own thing that's completely separate from all other human relationships I could possibly have on this earth. I will add even to go even further that in addition to it being unlike any relationship you could have with anyone else, it's probably unlike a relationship that anyone else can even understand. Right, that's how unique being in a band on and off for thirty years with a group of people and going to those emotional places of creation together. Yeah, you make yourself so vulnerable when you do it, especially if you try to dig deep into yourself in the way that we always have, you make yourself so vulnerable to the rest of the world. It's only with each other that you have this level of comfort. And sometimes that means that you have some sort of an ugly outburst with each other, and sometimes it means that you have the funniest, funnest times that you could have with anybody. It's a level of closeness that I mean, I guess family is the only thing that I could really compare it to, But but it's so much more limited than family because it's really just those four people you know. Well, I would just for a moment like to speak to what John just said briefly, because that was really very clearly expressed. And sometimes it's hard to put words to those experiences and those feelings of having the brotherhood and the friendship and the experience of being in a band, because it's certainly something like you with your biological family, whether you like them or not, or love them or not, you can never really quit it because there's this biological connection and the dynamic of parents and children and brothers and sisters. It's like you may want to divorce yourself, but really there's a there's an invisible tether word you can't. And and the same as kind of true for the family that you choose when you have a deep, lifelong experience with Like like John said, even when we were not in a band together, our destinies and our lives are completely shaped by one another forever for you know, lots of good purposes. But when John had left the band, most recently for a large chunk of time, you know, over ten years, it never left my reality or my awareness that everything I was doing was largely and part of what John had contributed to my life. So whether I was right music or whether I was going on tour without John. Every time we had that experience, I was like, I would not be here if if not for my experience with John, and you know, my successes and failures and everything in between. I was always had an awareness that, you know, John is a part of why this is happening. And there was always a sense of gratitude that came along with that, because there is a weird, beautiful nonverbal closeness that comes with playing music with somebody. And sometimes I watched John jam with Chad and what they share together in that moment where nobody's talking but they're just playing. I'm like, oh my god. They have like a relationship that's based on sound and it fills their hearts. And the same thing when John is playing with Flee, you know that intercommunication of melody and everything. It's it's as profound as any other you know, verbal communication, or going a chip together, having a sandwich together. It's like they bond so heavily over that moment where no words need to be spoken, but we're just in this invisible space improvising together. And I look at them like, damn, you know that is a connection, a real powerful connection. So yes, John, I want you to know that whenever we're a part and I'm doing music and like, I never forget you. Yeah. Yeah. I also I also want to explain one thing that relates to what you're talking about, which is this band is not a band who comes in and plays their parts. This is a band that are always looking at and communicating with each other musically, much more like jazz. Even though the form isn't jazz, the relationships are more like the way jazz players interact. It's a different thing. So we think of a rock band or a funk band as people who play their parts. That's not what this is. This is a much more organic, dynamic, living thing that comes from you guys playing together. And I think that that's it's helpful for people to understand. It'll make sense the things that you're saying makes sense when you understand this is not people playing their parts together. That's not what this is. It's a communication and an interaction all the time between the members. Yeah, it often feels to me like like Flees bass part makes my guitar part. It doesn't feel like I'm coming up with something to go with what he's doing. It feels like there's a guitar part attached to his bass part, and that's what I'm going to play. And the same thing has happened with Chad playing a drumbeat, just walking into rehearsal playing a drum beat, like we had that song Stadium, Arcadium. I remember clearly he was playing that drum beat I walked into the studio. That was the guitar part that was attached to it. It wasn't something I'd come up with or contrived. And in the same way, like no matter how far along a song is instrumentally, it's never till Anthony comes in with the vocals that, now, all of a sudden, I know what to do when it changes the guitar part in all kinds of ways, And that happens immediately the first time he sings it. All of a sudden, the guitar part becomes fully formed and in the context of the whole song, and it's just this immediate thing. So it happens in the songwriting process, it happens in improvisation, but it never feels like it's a decision about, Okay, how would I like to approach this. It's always it's always as if the other members formed whatever it is that I'm doing, which I think for jazz musicians, the good ones who were great listeners, that's how it was for them. They're not super concerned with what they're doing. They're listening to the whole thing, and there's this automatic response that's made by the bigger context. I remember when Chad was playing that drumbeat, and I remember when you started playing guitar to stadium arcadium right at the alley. Yeah, it was a good feeling. Yeah, I was like, let me, let me just record this real quick. We have to take a quick break and then we'll be back with more from Anthony Keatis, John Fuschante, and Rick Rubin. We're back with more from Rick Rubin's conversation with Anthony Keatis and John Fuschante. We're talking about jamming at the North Hollywood rehearsal space, the Alley. I want to tell a quick story about one of the things that happened at the Alley that was always entertaining for me was when we'd be working on a song and there was we needed a new part and there would be the face off where we would have we'd have a whole song, except there'd be a missing element, and John and Flee would walk to the center of the room, press their faces together, kind of like angry boxers before a match, and then they would both retreat, and then a few minutes later they would both come back with the idea of what a new part could be, and it was always interesting. They were always radically different, and more often than not, both of the new parts made it into the song, maybe one as a chorus, one as a bridge, one as an outro, but it was not unusual for both parts to make it. Sometimes one would just win the original solution to the problem, but sometimes both would work their way, and it was always funny to see the cartoon aspect of the faces coming together making a mean face and then retreating to make their music. When we were writing Mother's Milk, when DH was in the band, that's when we first started doing those face offs, and it was this brand new musical skill that I was having to learn how to develop. You know, did you guys do those before I was in the band, Anthony not as such? Like there may have been a much more subtle variation on that theme. Nothing as defined as we're gonna go face to face, We're gonna go in separate, like I'll go outside, you stay inside, and then in five minutes, whatever happened happened, and it's time to get down to breast acts. Yeah. So I've never I've never written from that perspective of like there's a song, but it's incomplete, we need a chorus, write one in five minutes, you know. So yeah, it By the time of Blood Sugar, I was better at it, like for a while, like it seemed like Flea was really like like so far ahead of me in terms of just being able to do some automatic, awesome thing because yeah, you get to learn like what's you know, what's going to really connect with people in the room. A lot of the time, it's the simplest thing you could do. It's not something you need to try super hard, you know, for you need to make something that's going to make it possible for the other people to come up with cool parts. Like and I think initially I was thinking of it too egocentrically. I was thinking of it is what's a part that's going to dazzle people? And the better way to think of it is what's a part that those guys are going to say that Anthony would want to write to that. Chad and Flee are going to come up with good parts too. Let's talk about the new album. Whoever wants to start? And Anthony, I'm sorry, I just cut you off. What will you say now? That's all right, that's all right. I was just gonna say, it's a pretty exciting moment when you get to listen to the face off materials, and like you said, more often than not, they all have value. And sometimes one of the contestants would come back with two or three ideas, and several of these ideas would make their way into that song or some other song. But I'm interested to hear what John has to say about the early phase one of writing Unlimited Love. It was interesting for me because there is definitely about a ten year period where everything I did with the guitar was in learning other people's music. I've been making progress doing that since I was ten years old, and I never stopped making that progress. As far as some artists where it was hard for me to understand what they were doing, and like, I didn't really get my head around the Beatles until I was in my early thirties, you know, I didn't really start to get my head around Genesis until I was in my late thirties. There's certain artists who were really challenging, you know. For that year before I rejoined, this time, Charlie Christian. I was obsessed with his playing, and I learned every solo that he recorded just about and that was actually some of Fleet and mis jamming the year before was playing Benny Goodman Charlie Christian tunes together. So I'd been practicing a lot, but I'd stopped making I'd stopped making rock music, and what guitar playing I had done in my music was meant to be as different from what I did in the Chili Peppers as it could possibly be when we when we started writing, it was interesting because though I hadn't tried to write rock music for a long time, I had built up all this new all these new ways of seeing the guitar and new ways of seeing chord changes that weren't part of my vocabulary in the other times i'd been in the band. You know, Normally, practicing guitar and playing in the band had been an everyday balance, and at one had always fed the other. You know, my every song I wrote in the band was generally inspired by something I'd learned on a CD, but now there was this ten year period where I'd been taking in all the information without doing anything with it because my expression was on machines and computers and not through the guitar. So that was another reason why I was a lot more comfortable starting out playing other people's music, because I didn't want to force anything, and I didn't want anything to I didn't want to feel that pressure of having to live up to what we've done before. As time goes by and I'm playing along with music that I'd like to be influenced by and remembering what this feels like to play with these people, playing the early Chili Pepper songs and cover tunes, stuff is going to start to come out and I'll start to want to write for this context. And so yeah, songs started coming out slowly, and gradually we phased out the playing other people's songs and playing early Chili Pepper songs and writing music came out pretty steady. It was a certain way of listening to music that I hadn't done for a long time, which is play along with things that are going to inspire you to come up with guitar parts. When you're playing when you're jamming with the band, and yeah, we just kept writing songs and it just kept building and building. I think I thought we would stop when we had twenty songs, but we just kept going and going. Several times I stopped writing songs because I thought, we have enough, let's just work on these, and then something or other would happen and I'd start At those points, I'd start concentrating on guitar playing. I kept thinking there was going to be a phase where I was just going to focus on the technical part of guitar playing and get away from this studying people who come up with good ideas for songs, and only stayed in those periods for short periods of time, because if I would stop writing songs, Flee would just keep coming in with songs, and then I would go like, all right, if he's going to come in with songs, I'm going to come in with songs. And you know, there's that it's kind of a soft kind of competition that Flee and I have with each other where where we bounce off of each other like that like Anthony was talking about. And so that just kept happening all up, even while we were in pre production with you, What would you say your biggest guitar influences are. Can you answer that question? Is it do wide well? Right now? It seems like throughout throughout making this record, the main people for me we're Freddie King, Johnny Guitar Watson, Clarence Gatemouth Brown. These are all electric blues players from fifties and early sixties. Forties and then Jeff Beck and Jimmy Hendrix have always been big for me, but they were particularly big, especially Jeff Beck while we were making this record. And as far as guitar parts like that John mcgeek from Susie and the Banshees and John Carruther's Valentine as well from Susie and the Banshees, particularly the album Tinderbox, I find them extremely inspiring. As far as people who give me good ideas for making other people sound good, those are the big one. Kurt Cobaine's guitar playing also I've found really inspiring throughout the making of this record, The Reckless Abandoned. I think I had an idea that by the time I wasn't sure what the direction the album was going to go was or where how my playing was going to go, but it seemed like by the time we were recording it, it seemed to have naturally come to be because I'm always playing along with all kinds of guitar players. But I got to a point where I was realizing that what was happening in my playing was that I was trying to bridge a kind of a gap between someone like Jeff Beck, who has all a lot of very interesting techniques that are very lyrical and expressive, make the guitar almost like it's a singer or something. It seemed like I was bridging a gap between that and someone like Kurt Cobain, who, especially in his improvisational playing, it's not so much about techniques per se. It's about putting a lot of energy into the instrument and playing in a way that has reckless abandoned. So I would think of those as guitar players as being contrary to one another, because Jeff Beck is very in control and Kurt Cobain is completely out of control when he's when he was at his best on guitar, and I felt it felt like that that was the best that was going on with my guitar playing. By the time we were recording, was I was trying to blend that kind of expressive lyricism that I was also getting quite a bit of from the blues players that I was talking about about just really every note having its own personality, every note having its own kind of attitude and sound coming from your fingers, combining that with the wild, reckless, abandoned that that comes when you're playing through a marshal really loud and you're standing in front of it and you're trying to just put a lot of a lot of energy through the instrument. More so than that you're trying to play something that you've that you've thought of in advance. It's more like like, uh, you're listening to what's coming out and and you're trying to respond to it and make the thing explode, you know, which is my favorite thing to do. Whether I'm on a computer or a machine or whatever, that's always the object is make the machine sound like it's going to explode, you know, make them machine sound like it's got a lot of energy coming through it. So now I was just doing that with the guitar, and those people really inspiring, and Jimmy Hendricks was also kind of a He was that way as well. Like he had a to some degree, he was kind of a combination of those two things, because he sounded very in control in some ways, but he'd also have those those aspects of his playing where it just sounded like he didn't know what was going to happen next. He's just like playing with the feedback and surprising himself, you know, And that's that's what keeps it interesting for me. So I like it when guitar players don't sound too much like they know what they're doing, or like they have too much of a preconceived idea of what they're going to do. I like it when there's a lot of energy coming through their playing, and sometimes that's because of they're really good at all those techniques that make the guitar speak in a lot of different ways, like Jeff Beck or Randy Rhodes or Eddie Van Halen, who were also people I was playing along with a fair amount, But you know, I was mainly listening to hardcore punk by the time we were recording it, and that was the energy that I wanted to be in all the music, no matter how soft it was, no matter what the style of music was, I wanted it to feel raw, and I wanted it to feel feel like it was the spirit of punk, even if it wasn't necessarily the sound of punk. Beautiful, Anthony, do you want to pick up where John talks through the writing process. Do you want to start with preproduction and then recording what the experience was like, what it felt like being in the room with everybody? Any thoughts? No, I really enjoyed listening to John's description there. He articulated in a way that I think about it. I was thinking of, this is not some great secret, but musicians that learn the academics of music and the technique of music in the you know, all the different theory and everything, and then they really kind of put all that aside to just let the explosion in the chaos and the moment be a part of what's being played, rather than, you know, this kind of meticulous, preconceived approach. And you know, I think John's an interesting example of that, because when we're playing live, it is explosive and it is dangerous and it is unpredictable. But I know how much time and effort and you know, songs that he's learned how to play of other people's and techniques that he's taken the time to figure out because John is a unique individual and that he is much less distracted than the average human being on earth today in the way that like Leonardo da Vinci, was able to think clearly and put in all this great work with what he loved to do because his telephone wasn't ringing and the cell tower wasn't pinging off his head. And John has found a way to do that in the modern age where he can really focus and concentrate and apply himself to his craft in a way where the noise of the world has less of an impact, less of a distraction. But I love that. I love it when when musicians just get so good and then they can throw it away and just you know, be So that was cool to hear. Like John said, when we got into a room together, it was it wasn't trying to live up to, you know, where where we had left off, and nobody felt like that. You know, I didn't walk into the room. It's like, well, we have to be this now because we were that ten years ago. It was kind of like let's just reinvent and start from ground zero. Um. And it was super slow, like in a good way, like we didn't go in there and you know, try to write a hit or anything. We just went in there and tried to feel each other out. And the feeling was nice because it was relaxed and it was devoid of expectation. And we've always had the luxury of playing anything under the sun, whether it's you know, a little beatbox grew that we want to turn into a song, or something that was inspired by jazz, or something that was inspired by funk, or something that was inspired by the Marx Brothers. That was like, whatever feelings we have, they're they're all welcome at the table when when it comes time for us to write. And we had those great experiences of learning blue songs, which were freaking challenging for me because for John that's a that's a big part of his vernacular and for me, I've never really taken the time to go and and what sounds so simple and the blues world is so full of nuance and you know, rhythmic innuendos that that don't come natural. So that was kind of fun for me. And there was actually a moment where we were hell bent on going to this daytime blues club down in South Central which is like an active one. I think maybe the only active all blues all the time clubs left in LA where these these elder statesmen of blues still like play out of a storefront or an open garage or something, and it's a club. And I don't know if we ever really got good enough with our with our blues song, mainly me to go down there and play. But we were like, we're once we get these songs together, we're gonna go play the blues club in South Central. And it was a nice little aspiration to kind of fuel the fire for a while. And then I just remember John playing a couple of songs on guitar that that he had formed arrangementally, and and one turned out to be a White Braids and pillow Chair, and it was so laid back and so simple, but so emotional and so interesting, and it had this um, this unique arrangement because it had the outro was almost as lengthy as the actual song, which ended up not being the same ratio once the song was finished, but it started off that outro, you know, the outro to White Raids, that was half the tune, and it just kept rolling like a horse running off into the woods. So there was that, and that was emotion. I was like, oh jeez, I hope I can like find the right colors for this song. And then Black Summer, oddly enough, which is now like our single off the record, was one of the first things that I remember John playing, and it was had such a beautifully sparse verse. I was like, wow, I am going to be naked and exposed trying to get my voice on this. But I'm pretty sure that John had for the verse of that song the basic vocal melody, Am I right? John? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, the verse is what you're doing on the verse is pretty similar to what I originally wrote. I realized recently what you're doing on the chorus is it probably was inspired by what I did, But what I did couldn't have been more different in terms of the feeling of Yeah, I wasn't trying to recreate your melody in the chorus. Yeah, that was something that I thought was just a new part. But but but it may have been seated by whatever you were doing. It starts on the same note. That's the only similarity, Like like like, uh, yeah, the chorus, my chorus was so different. It just popped into my head the other day, I was like, wow, that was the original chorus. There's this girl Kate from Wales who's a folk singer that I admire, and and when you wrote that that verse and it came with that kind of folkush melody, I was like, yeah, I get to like try something new and very exposing, which was hard to sing in the beginning, because you know, it's kind of this free floating melody in space there. Maybe not her for you, but harder for me. That the inspiration for you almost have a bit of an accent at the beginning of a song. It's not almost, and it's not almost. So is that inspired by Kate? Yes? So I wasn't trying to be Welsh. I wasn't trying to be Irish or Scottish or English or a pirate. But I did feel like I need to be in character to sing this verse. This doesn't have to be like my normal me. It can be you know, a variation, a version of character. And it was just quite simply, it was easier to sing with a little bit of that amalgam accent than not for whatever reason. And I also feel like that's the right flavor for the verse from when Anthony first started singing it, he saw it like, there's different ways to interpret the song, you know. There was like, in some ways it could be seen as sort of a Nirvana type song with a soft verse and an explosive chorus, and but there was another way of looking at this that was like Anthony, what Anthony heard in it, which is that it's more of a folk song. It's amazing. That's one of the things that makes collaboration so interesting is that you'll start with one idea and someone will add something, and at first it'll seem weird, and then you can come around to like, whoa, it's really I can't imagine it a different way now. It's so fascinating the process. Yeah, I don't think that there was that there's a right way to sing that verse or not, like now. I remember John's early stylings were more in the Nirvana mode, and that also felt right it certainly it certainly didn't feel wrong. But but I feel the same about the kind of folk approach, Like in this case, both work, and for whatever reason, I gravitated towards the folk rather than the Kurt styling or John's interpretation of that. But I remember liking the way John sang it, and and that felt just as right as anything. Fascinating, you know, it's fascinating how it works. Like the way things change when you're making it happens too when we're recording, Like things will evolve in the recording. They'll even change in the mix sometimes where the whole feel of a song comes alive in a way that it didn't since the first time you played it in the room and it was really exciting. Then you can hear a mix where it like it's back, like it's back to that energy that doesn't always happen naturally. Sometimes it takes massaging to get it to do what it can do. I have a question about white Braids, because you mentioned it earlier. Do you guys mind if we listen to it? Sure, I'm an angler dagger and I wanna rim it dot to shwintz a while I can ask it why she's a loaded cobra and she wanted to be with me for the ride In a Sunday dinner, I'm reminded there's no final place to kiss than unl this. But day I can't see what's right with you? Why Prisonlin I couldn't spend my night with its busy Lovaina. I can't see your side of why braising chair. I don't know what I would without your below. She's a Bobby Daring singing too, the fishing, heaving, sacrifice, all that's a night. There's a common about the backing. We believe it's a lie. You can see the ribble running through my devastated concrete eyes. Don't Denis, but I can't see what's right with you? Wh prisonlow chain. I could stand my nights with thelow fain. I can't see your sides w resent pillow share. I don't know d time cattle Lifonio say things. Take cattle, liponia, same, beat them to a style rot and by God then do a sky and by sound to be baker something sound to be so. I love that song. That song is based on a true life couple who I didn't meet, but some years ago I was with my girlfriend Helena, and we were in Ventura at a coffee shop having a snack, and this couple showed up, and they were probably in their late seventies, and the man had the most beautiful white braids you'd ever seen down to his waist, and she came with her own pillow to the coffee shop and she sat that pillow down on her chair so she'd be just a little more comfortable, and they had their lunch together and I looked at him and I was like, that is the most beautiful couple I've ever seen. And I ended up referring to them as white Braids and pillow Chair for the rest of the day when talking to my girlfriend at the time, and it just stuck as they need a song to be written about them. Many years later, John shows up with this cool idea for a song, and White Braids was born. So you had the idea, never knowing it would be a song for years. Yes, it was just just a memory from years earlier. It was. It was an emblazoned memory, but it was also probably a jotted note. I'd probably made a note to self somewhere and some phone that was dead in a drawer somewhere. White braids and pillow chair. Yeah, And I was very touched that you were feeling the song, because sometimes in the middle of fifty songs you can lose perspective and then to see it have an effect on you and you would come in and you're like, oh, I took my walk on the beach today and all I could sing was white braids. I was like, Okay, the song is correct. If Freak is singing it, the song is correct. It's true. It definitely would hit me on the beach. And John used to talk to me about walking around his house singing the outro because that was the vocal in the outro is John's melody. And do you remember that, John? Yeah, that I just kept. I mean, I had the guitar part and which is always playing a few notes at once, but I had a melody that I was it was sticking in my head as being certain notes in the chords basically. So that's been an interesting kind of collaboration, is the melody department, because that's the fun of writing music with other people, is to see where where a very simple idea becomes fleshed out by other people. So like usually when I'd write some core changes, I have to have a melody in my head to know that there's any value in the chord changes. Like it it's hard for me to just write the chords by themselves, Like I need to know that it's going to be fun for Anthony to write a melody over it, to want to bring something in, So I figure, if it makes me write a melody, it's going to make him want to write a melody. So that's that's sort of part of my criteria for stuff that I bring in versus stuff that I don't bring in a lot of the time, so quite a bit of the time I had a melody, but I wouldn't tell it to him unless he asked, so in that case, I believe that was one of the ones where he said, do you have a melody for the ultra white Bread? You know it's I never felt any kind of sense of attachment to the melodies that I came in with. Sometimes i'd sing it to him the day I brought into the guitar part. Sometimes i'd maybe sing him one of the melodies and not the other. Sometimes he'd interpret the melody in his own way and turn it into something else. Sometimes he'd completely come up with his own melody. Sometimes he'd do exactly pretty much the melody that I'd wrote, or very close to it. You know, it was always up to him. I remember the first time I brought in a tune like that to him, I made it clear after I performed it, like I don't give a shit the melody, you know what I mean, Like, if you like it, great, but like I'm just I'm just throwing it out there just because this is the way it came to me. And a lot of the time I'd specifically withhold the melody unless he asked about it, because I'd just make a different judgment for different pieces of music. We'll be right back after a break with more from Anthony Keatis and John Fuschante. We're back with the rest of Rick Rubin's conversation with Anthony Ketis and John Fushante. John, let's talk about how Flea brings in songs also and he brings in they seem to be two categories, but maybe that's not right. I think it was two categories. Ones that he's written on piano and one that he writes on bass, and those are two whole different avenues in for his songs. Tell me about the experience of hearing a new Flee song and then reacting to it. How do you know what to do in reaction to what he brings in the piano ones? In some cases, like I'm thinking particularly it's only natural. Yeah, like that song it was just him on piano for for a long time, and it kept kind of falling apart. It wasn't really naturally developing into something, but he kept bringing it in. He kept reminding us of it over and over, and he would sit down on the piano and he would go like, dun du du du du du du dent dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun dun du du dud. It was. It was just the basics of the chord progression played like that. And so I started playing bass since he was playing piano, and I came up with this bass line. And I remember we had been throwing the song around for a while and like I said, it wasn't really going anywhere, but it started to feel like it was going somewhere when I made up this bass line to it. And I was kind of playing the only way I really can play bass, and kind of a Paul McCartney style, kind of sliding around and the chord changes and being kind of fancy in a guitar player kind of way. And Anthony, who was making jokes like you know who was that John aink Whistle on the bass? You know, everybody was saying what a great bass line it was. Chad was really into the bass line. Anthony was really into the bass line, and as I remember it, the next day, Fully came in with the idea that now he's going to play it on bass, you know, like like like, and so it was one of those little competitive moments that like he did not like like everybody being excited about my bass line. So he came in and he did an even better bass line, and I switched to guitar, and that's when the song started to really feel like it had a really real life, you know. So yeah, some of the piano ones came together and you just never knew where they were going to go. He learned how to play piano while I wasn't in the band, So that was a brand new aspect of the collaboration that I was adjusting to. Let's let's play It's only natural. It's one of my also one of my very favorite songs. I had no idea the history of it. The beauty is I get to come into the rehearsal room and I hear the songs after they've already turned into pretty much what they are, and we talk about them from there, how we can make them better, But they're pretty much what they are, So you'll now hear it's only natural, not so different than how I heard it when I walked in the first time. She was learning new the PA did itself. He was side them more night in the spier Shokud she was a dady girl briddle the brick stone with dragonside, but she came home in that Jerling Love show, you have to break it down in spite of attraction. Well in doling that jeling people with show you have breake it down. In Spider Steady up they were perfect. Bless you you beauties and the rest of babe. Nobody knows just fair landing with strike but always game. And she came home. She came. It's on in that jewerl and Love will show you how to break it down in spiral attraction when it's only in that jewel and people will show you how to take it down. Inspiral steady of General show you how to bring it down inspirer traction that general and people were shown you not being it down inspirer lovel and Loose show you have to breaking down the traction when Insolingling people show you have been down inspired love Steadio. I love that song. I love that song, and I didn't know any of that story. I didn't know that that song came in on piano, and I didn't know any of the history of it. Yeah, and then the chorus was the result of a face off. Wow. And yeah. It's one of those things like I was talking about earlier, like I was into what we came up with instrumentally, but Anthony came in with the vocal, as I remember it, very quickly. Once we once it finally sounded like a song. And that excitement that I feel I kept saying to him while we were making the record, like those those were the most exciting parts for me in the whole writing process, was those days that Anthony would come in with a vocal because I didn't know what to expect and and it just all of a sudden, it would sound like a record to me, you know. And before that, it just sounds like an idea for a song, you know. And that excitement that I feel when I hear him singing it, I don't have to think about anything. All of a sudden, I know, Okay, I'm gonna play this guitar part at this part. I'm gonna play this guitar part at that part, like the way I'm switching guitar parts in the verse. That all just happened automatically once I heard Anthony coming in with what he was going to do. You know, it's a really exciting kind of osmosis that takes place between us when that happens, because it doesn't it's just something gets transferred to me, completely separate from the actual melody that he's singing, you know, in the words that he came up with. It's just like, all of a sudden, my own part comes completely into focus, and it couldn't be any other way than what it is right at that moment that I'm first hearing his vocal. Yeah. Cool. That's a nice memory I have of that one, because because I hadn't thought much of that song throughout its various stages leading to what it became. And I remember that night because we were recording every rehearsal and listening to them at night, and when that song came on with his vocal, I was just I danced all over my living room, like multiple times to it. I was so excited. It feels like a quintessential chili pepper song. It's beautiful. I love it. I can't imagine another artist making that song. It's just such a signature part of it. It doesn't sound like any chili pepper songs I've heard before, yet it's so represents what the band does that it's just scratches the chili pepper itch in a new way, and I love it, Anthony. Before we Go, John spent a good deal of time talking about punk rock because he started in punk rock. It's an energy he brought to this project. And tell us about your relationship to punk rock and from your perspective, the band's relationship to punk rock. Well, I'm pretty sure that it defies any sort of a verbal description, since it is such a visceral experience. I mean, my relationship to punk rock is a beautiful thing. It happened, It certainly happened without me being conscious of it. Was I never thought to myself, oh, this is punk rock. I just show up and was very kind of peripherally a part of something that was happening in la that felt good and scary and fucked up and in the moment and of the time, and oddly enough, my father, who would visit London regularly in the seventies, came back with the English girlfriend and a Sex Pistols record and maybe nineteen seventy seven or seventy eight, and he tried to get all punk rock on me, but really I think he was just trying to, you know, play with young people were into at that moment. And so I remember hearing the sex Pistols, you know, come from out of my living room when I was getting ready to go to high school. And I didn't really make the connection at that point, Like I noticed it, and I noticed how cool the girl was that he was dating, but I still hadn't you know, become part of that mix, like the British version didn't sweep me a wave away in a wave. And then I went to a daytime show at the Palladium where the Germs played before I got there, and then by the time I got there, Devo was playing and these girls were coming out of the backstage and they were putting safety pins through their face as adornment, and I remember kind of connecting the two things, like, oh, this music and these girls like wanting to feel alive go together, and so that kind of caught my attention. But I was in no way a punk rocker. I was like a little i don't know, at very best, like a little new wave kid in high school, you know, listening to the Talking Heads and David Bowie and a few other things. But when Flee and I started wandering up to the Starwood and really getting a true taste of the Los Angeles punk rock scene, I started feeling semi connected. And then it just became a lifestyle. Like the minute we got out of high school and became homeless and lived on the street. Everywhere we went and everyone we met and everything we did revolved around punk rock clubs, and it was kind of the tail end of the Circle Jerks and the mid level of Black Flag. And I remember seeing the Black Flag logo on spray painted on buildings and going be very careful at those Black Flag shows, like something could go south in a hurry. Those guys will kill you. But it was just like from gossip and talk that, like, you know, seventeen year old people would say. And then Bob Forrest of Thelonious Monster started djaying in a crash pad that Flee and I lived in that had no door, and he was playing us Black Flag Records on vinyl, and it was pretty profound because it was they were rewriting what was possible, like of something that had never been done before, and that energy and then fully ended up joining Fear. So I went to a lot of Fear shows. But at that time punk rock in LA did not have this definition of it has to be one thing. It was really about anything goes. Anything goes if you're expressing yourself and you're doing it in a way that does not pay attention to the musical norms of that day. It all went together so you could have a lounge punker like how Negro and the Satin Tones on the same bill with the Bad Brains and you know, so now when people think of punk, you know, they think of a mohawk and combat boots and aggression. But when we grew up, it was it was like X was punk, you know, the like the most storytelling, poetic kind of I don't know what they music is based in, but their presentation was so fresh that it was considered punks, as would the Minutemen, which you know had nothing to do with any kind of violence or dominance. It was just let it all out, you know, whoever you happen to be just let it all out and do it with your friends, and do it for free, and do it when no one's looking. You know, the Minutemen, We're probably one of our biggest emotional inspirations growing up during the formation of the Red Hot Chili Peppers, and we were lucky enough to plan bills with them because that's how that's how the punk rock bills were would be like Red Hot Chili Peppers, Fishbone, and the Minutemen, you know, none of whom really sounded anything like each other. I'm just I'm just wondering what that time was like. The clarity of punk rock then was different than we think back on punk rock now is interesting. It's helpful if you watch the Decline movie, the first Decline movie, we get to experience all forms of punk rock, Alice Bag Band, it was a wide variety. And I remember being in New York because in New York punk rock was not that And I remember seeing the Decline movie and thinking, Wow, punk rocks really different in Los Angeles than it is in New York. In New York it was, you know, minor threat, and it was just different in New York City. Trying to claim Minor Threat, Well, it's what we thought of It's what we thought of it. But you also had like the Ramons as your as your punk rock template, and yes, to some degree, like the New York Dolls and you guys were definitely early. And I never understood like the competition or the like I'm East Coast punk, I'm West Coast punk. Grow I was like it all was so meaningful and so different and so wonderful, and yeah, shout out to Minor Threat, who was definitely life changing, very much so for Flee. When we lived in that same house listening to Black Flag, Flee discovered Minor Threat, and it was an awakening for him. Asked to how to want to like be as a human being. And the first time we ever played DC, we were opening up for the English Beat at the theater and again I was going through this kind of heavily drug addict a time in my life, and the great Ian Mackay attended the show and I was so attracted to him as as a human being that I felt terrible about myself. I was like, oh my god, Ian came to see the show and you know, on backstage, like you know, shoving chemicals in my brain, and he was the least judgmental, most loving, complimentary, like even though he was mister straight edge and you know, proclaiming his path. He came up to the van window as we were driving away, and I was like sweating toxins and he came up to me through the little crack in the van window and he's like, that was a really great show. I'm really happy I was here for that. Thank you for that. Good luck on the rest of your tour. I was like, what a sweetie. Like he stands for everything that I'm not, but he can appreciate something that he's not, and also embracing the kind of punk funk from the West Coast that was so different from the the established East Coast punk scene. Just a happy memory, just like my introduction to Ian, Like, I'm not gonna I'm not gonna judge you in the slightest beautiful No, he did. He always did his thing, whatever it was, and would share what it was that was his thing, but he never expected it of anyone else. Yeah, John, do you remember when we went to see Fugazi? Yeah in San Francisco, you mean no, at the country Club? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, early Yeah, Oh my god. Yeah, no, that was great. Unfour gets a Bowl. Yeah, man, yeah, so that would have been like eighty nine or ninety or something ninety. I think it was nine. Yeah, Yeah, that was really something. Yes, Yeah, those guys have been a huge influence on me on guitar as well. Like when when that album Repeater came out, there was there was things about the there's lots of points when the Red Medicine album came out. When Repeater came I remember, I was just felt like I was putting my own guitar style together in nineteen ninety, Like it was where I really started to feel like, you know, the combination of starting to work with you and and being more comfortable in the role of guitar player in the band and stuff, and I really just felt like there was some there was new directions being pointed to for the guitar on on that stuff that really had had a big impact on me. And and yeah, it's always stayed that way. I always think of them when we're writing tunes and play along with their stuff. It's just like they've done so many creative things with the with the guitars in particular, Yeah, like taking taking the essence of punk rock and turning it into all these unexpected directions and that sound thing that attracted me and Adrian Blue when I was a kid. In certain ways, they would just make all these sounds with the guitar and put all that reckless abandon into the instrument as well. That just like I've had many epiphanies at the moment, at moments when their new album had just come out throughout their career, you know where it's just like where it just completely changed the direction that I was going. Beautiful. Do you guys want to pick a song for us to end with? Something? Anthony, what's your favorite track on the album? It's a third way type for last place. Between these are the Ways, Herever After and Bastards of Light. Wow, John, if you were picking between those three, which would do DJ? I guess here ever After seems like a good one for this. Let's do it. I was bathing. I love my cousin. She was waving. I told man, though, bang the mind because I see no feature Saturday down when I want that tea, I don't know, because I got a big temper stick to to my rainbow side candy corner. That damn sing lepper. That's all bo, that's all. She's kinda get and make you wanna do fast. Now she's kinna get to make your still up time. She's kinda gis he in a feelings dance crying hill being out down then I know, but if finally just want my mouth features of food and even after that bumpy stop at the call of the boss from the Blacktop, che's your range. I better at the big style we danced that teetot girling back. Now she's go solo. He's kinna get and make you wanna go faster. Now she's kinna get make it steal up time. She's kinda guess he's in a hearing around then it's by hill being out down down, get out, give it up. She's that drumstone lows so you need get out leave it up to that liqua stone goals in the long bequeen bullistick meanjee beast with the mess up lipstick. My thing is blacktop locos. W get this is now, take my photo. She's gonna get and make you wanna go faster. Now she's gonna get and make it steal your kid. She's kinda gets in in a healing around. It's by hill being out down. Then I don't banging out with those daddy issues, hanging out with that chevron me doctor ross. So I let her kiss you that nick bit talk. Look at he's bit you big box covering on beat talk fasto cash when you're living in the boot box, kiss me out like boo tell food, dude, but bout now that's my Bootoo. She's canna get it makes you wanna go fast. And then now tee's canna get and make it. Tell you he's gonna be GISs. He's inn here down this by hill being out down. And I don't beautiful that I felt the influence of the of the fifties blues and the guitar solo it and I never did before you said that. But the the efficiency of notes and making every note really count and getting the most out of every note was perfect. It was a perfect example. Yet when I listened to it for all these over a year now, I never would have made that connection. It's fascinating to hear the roots. There's definitely not just the blues influence, but a fifties rock and roll influence. For me, that that was a lot of the main music that I was playing along with for a long time during the writing process. There were other times, like By the Way time, where I was listening to that kind of music and trying to write stuff like that, But this time I was just listening to stuff like that and studying it, but trying to think of it as if I'm in the sixties. I'm I'm after that, Like what do I do now? I'm trying to do something different from this, you know. And so the influence ended up coming through in unexpected ways because that song was like a Joy Division inspired thing. But when Anthony heard it, he heard it, I didn't think it had a chorus, and Anthony heard it as being a Buddy Holly kind of thing where the verse and the chorus are right up next to each other, almost as if they're part of the same section, you know. And so he wrote to it in a way that was fifties inspired, because that's that's what he heard in the music. But for me, that was unintentional, you know, the song had that. I didn't realize that I was writing something that had a chorus built into the built into the verse, which is a fifties format. Anthony, do you remember the first time you heard the groove, I sure do. First of all, that the solo that you spoke to at the beginning of this is my favorite moment of that song. It's like, all this tribal drum tension and the real release happens that for some reason, that solo punch as a hole in the giant hot air balloon and you can just let it all go at that moment. I love that feeling. I can't wait to do that song live because I want to feel that live. I remember hearing it and hearing my chorus melody immediately, which is always a lessing and a gift and a pleasure and a relief because at least I know what the hell I'm supposed to be doing on this song. And then I remember I think asking either probably John, like do you mind if I if I rap on the verses? I know that's kind of out of context with this fifties thing, but and he was like, no, no, no, that's great. You know do that. That'll that'll that'll be good. And so then I felt free to just paint a picture with words and not worry about melody in the verses, which felt really good because it is kind of an odd rub of rhythms, like an unexpected rub of rhythms. And when it was all written, you know, there's so much going on that really nobody paid attention to the lyric in the band, you know, because we keep moving forward. And then a year and a half later, you know, John is mixing and he's like, I just read the lyrics to here ever after, and I really liked them in it minds me exactly of what it felt like to move to Hollywood. When I left the Valley, I was like, WHOA, finally you know the picture that I painted got noticed by the right person at the right time. Beautiful. Yeah, I mean a lot of the time I read the lyrics when I was singing backing vocals, but I didn't feel that that song needed backing vocals, so I hadn't so I didn't really look carefully at that one until then, and it so it epitomized a kind of a feeling that made me so excited to be alive about the sort of sketchiness and dirtiness and you never know what's going to happen next kind of CD side of Hollywood. I for me, I at that time, in the late eighties. That was It was really the feeling that I hoped to be able to put into music one day, you know, And it makes me really happy to hear the way those lyrics go with that music. It worked out. I love that song. Well. Thank you gentlemen so much for doing this. Thank you for bearing your soul and sharing what goes on behind the music, you know, like what's what got us to what we get to listen to. I feel like you did a great job of filling in some color in the process that we never get to hear. We rarely get to hear. So thank you so much. It's the bearing and sharing hour with Rick Rubin. Nice to see you. Hopefully I'll see you on that mountain that you're sitting on soon. Great Please come. I miss you. I love you, miss you. I love you, John, I miss you, I love you, Love you. Rick. Thanks so much for this. Thank you, see Anthony, see you guys. Thanks Anthony Keatis and John Fusciante for sharing so much about their creative process as a band and the stories behind the making of their newest album, Unlimited Love. You can hear the new album and all of our favorite red Hot Chili Peppers songs on my playlist at broken record podcast dot com. Be sure to subscribe to our you two channel at YouTube dot com slash broken record Podcast, where we post all of our new episodes. You can follow us on Twitter at broken Record. Broken Record is produced with help from Lea Rose, Jason Gambrel, Ben Holliday, Eric Sandler, Jennifer Sanchez, and Shangra Law Studios. Our executive producer is mil La Belle. Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries. If you love this show and others from Pushkin, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription that offers bonus content an uninterrupted ad free listening for four ninety nine a month. Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple Podcasts subscriptions, and if you like this show, please remember to share, rate, and review us on your podcast at Our theme music's by Kenny Beats. I'm Justin Richard.