Flea

00:00:15 Speaker 1: Pushkin, Pushkin. Hey everyone, this is number three in our four episode run with the Red Hot Chili Peppers celebrating their new album Unlimited Love. Today you'll hear a very special conversation between Rick Rubin and Flee. Flee is one of the most iconic bass players of all time, and, along with singer Anthony ketis one of the all time great musical ambassadors of Los Angeles. He talks with Rick on today's episode about how he rocks started his way into usc to study music. Theory, remembers tearfully telling John Fruschante how much he missed playing together, and tells Rick why he reverts back to his fifteen year old self anytime. He argues with ketis this is broken record? Well, I don't know. It's for the digital age. I'm just a mission. Here's Rick Rubin with Flee. Yo, Hi, Rack, How are you feeling good? Thank you? How are you? I'm very well pleasure seeing you man, Thank you. Do you want to just talk about what it was like going to the studio making the new album? Yeah, I don't know what to say. I mean, you know, we just did the work, you know, like, I don't know how it is for people who have never made records. But you just do the work man, you know, like all the homework, the countless hours that we spend a loan sitting in a room. You know, how can I contribute and following these feelings of something that makes us feel a certain way, like like I know for myself and for John and for Anthony, I mean, we all have a different way that we do it. But like they're just sit in a room at the piano and start hitting a thing until one point I'm hitting it in a way that hypnotizes me, that makes me feel like ah, like hit you know, and then it's beautiful. And the same thing with the bass, like this playing and like I played ten zillion basslines in my life, and when I start playing, when it's like, oh this is different than when I've played before. And I'm jeeling right now? Is Jewel coming down to my fucking belly? Because I'm gone and it takes me away, like it opens me up to a place that is beyond thought, beyond action. It's just me in touch with God, you know, me being completely present and complete as a human being in that moment. That's good. And it might not be the right thing for the band, and it's still like thing like coming in being kind of like, well, I got this, you guys, what do you think you know? And sometimes it's like, ah, you know, I don't know. I don't know if I feel that, you know what I mean? I was like, Oh, I like still crest falling because I still care so much, and ultimately for us as a band, that's what really matters, as we still really care. And if this thing that we do was it all just as a means to an end to have to put out a record so we can do a big tour so we can have a hit, or so we can get this, or that we'd be fucked. There's no way we would be doing anything important or relevant in any way. But because we care deeply not only about the quality of the thing, but about the quality and the meaning and purpose in the process of making it, and like the thing of like this is a ritual that is a sacred ritual. When we go into work with you, when we go into work by ourselves alone at home, sitting alone, going into work with the collective every day, like this is a sacred ritual. We do this, we open ourselves up to channel something bigger than us, and to shape it into these songs and that process. You know, the fact that we all care deeply about that is why the music has thought and care and loving it. And for me, it's still deeply relevant to the universe, absolutely, And I think that's the reason that people resonate with it and have for so long, is that it's it's much bigger than any of the people involved. That we're tapping into something serious. Yeah, man, tell me about learning to play piano. Well, it's a slow process that you know. I'm still a humble student of it, you know, I guess like I still feel the same way at the base, I'm still a humble student of it. It was guess, gosh, Now it's like when did John quit the band in twenty ten something like that. Yeah, I was around then. And then about a year after that, I got the idea to go to college to university and study music. Ran I went. I kind of rock started my way into USC because I didn't have the high school grades from thirty years before to get in and got into the music program. Nan went and took theory and composition and jazz trumpet and just to do the theory homework, I had to sit at the piano because we were analyzing Bach chorls and stuff, and you had to read it and then write this sort of the numerical equation of how the music worked, like how the chords related to one another. And they were so great for me, just because I had never thought of music in any way other than you know, emotionally and intuitively. Was my complete relation to music. And I had, you know, the most minimal academic schooling, Like I knew what ancative was and knew what a scale was, but it was all feel for me. So to start thinking about it academically was such a beautiful way to engage my mind and made me start loving math for the first time and really seeing the magic and numbers. But but anyways, in order to do the to do that work, I needed to sit at the piano, and also in analyzing the Bach, which was kind of the crux of the academic studies, it made me fall in love with Box. So I started buying the most remedial Bach piano pieces and trying to learn them, and I think I like to hand in book and started just really loving the feeling of the piano under my fingers. And started playing it. And you know, whenever I have time, I play it. Oftentimes my work is too consuming for me to have the practice time. But it's just this ongoing thing. And it's funny how you ever, know, like when you're learning something new and you do it for a while and you start, you know, you're learning the technique to do it or figuring out how it works, and then you don't do it for a while, and then come back and somehow you're better, Like your brain has had like done these this work without you. Yes, Yeah, which is a really amazing thing about how the brain works like that, Like there's the conscious work that it does that you're aware of, and then there's all this subconscious work which is and that's like amazing to me. And I'm kind of like discovering that as I get older, that there's all this work going on that I don't know about, and it's such an amazing thing to witness to see. Would you say learning piano and music theory has impacted your bass playing enormously in what way? For one thing, having a richer understanding of how the baseline relates to the chords, then you start learning about chords and playing left hand and right hand together, so you're always interacting and you're realizing it's like stuff that I would do intuitively, but seeing how Okay, so it's a C chord If you're playing a G that's the fifth of the C, so you're all of a sudden a C cord is getting a different color because of what's in the base, and just being aware of how that's working, and just kind of having more of an understanding of not just kind of getting lucky if when I'm hitting what note against a chord even though luck isn't the right word because I'm still reaching for the color, but kind of going into it with a deeper understanding of what the chord is and what notes, you know, just kind of having an arsenal colors to paint with and just really helping me like that. So yeah, it really helps, And you know, obviously it's like oftentimes in my contribution to the Chili Peppers as a bass player, a lot of songs will start with a bassline or with a series of bass lines that go together to form different sections. And when I'm thinking of chords and what chords the basslines might imply while I'm doing it, it just helps me to create better baselines. Are there any songs on the new album that started with you at the piano? Yeah, bunch, Well not the one for sure. That was, you know, very chorded out on the piano, started with piano chords. First time you played that on piano for the rest of the band. What was that like? Well, I always get nervous when I bring a song in, especially on the piano, because you know, I'm not that adept at the piano. But I really felt good about it. I thought like, oh, this is I remember it like coming up with it, thinking like this is good for the band, like this is a beautiful thing. And now they were. They were very amendable to it from the beginning. It kind of changed over time, and I think what became the chorus was initially a bridge. I in my head, it was a bridge the way I had originally thought of it, but Anthony really liked singing a chorus part over it, and once we decided that was a chorus and not a bridge, then it kind of needed to change a little bit, and John had an idea to change the chords at the end of it. When it goes blues. Guys, I fall into da da da da, and it kind of has this descending chord pattern. John added that in there, and that really helped it a lot. At the end, you notice I played this little um bass melody, but edu da da da da, but edd d da dah. And originally for me, that was the vocal melody that I had in the verses, and in my head that was always it. But I didn't want to, you know, say to Anthony O, here's the vocal melody. I knew that he would want to come up with something and let him do it. But then when we were tracking it and I did the bass later, which is rare because normally I record the bass as one of the first things that we record with the basics, I just stuck it in there, snuck it in there at the end because I didn't want to lose it because I always liked that melody. But I guess it is kind of more of an instrumental melody. You know. I'm so happy it made it into the song because I love that moment in the song. I feel like it's really beautiful part of the whole thing. Yeah, it's a nice little out show, but yeah, no, it was good and you know, so oftentimes, like something the way I imagine something being is by myself when I'm coming up with it, compared to what it becomes once everyone starts putting your two cents in, is something much different than what I anticipated, And that's that's awesome. It's a trip in our band in the creative process, because we're all so different and have a different view of music, you know, you know, which is all intertwined with different worldviews and different views of ourself and different views of even what the band is, you know, and with John coming back to the band, who's you know, obviously a very powerful creative entity and an individual entity on his own knows who he is, you know, you know, in ways it can be difficult for all of us because we're all so different, and so we'll butt heads or have different opinions about stuff, but it's crucial to That's why, you know, what we're doing is so powerful, or for me it's powerful, is because we're all bringing something completely different and each thing is of a profound significance to the whole as opposed to someone you know, repeating what another guy thinks. So it's harder, but that's how it is. Good. When you first heard Anthony's melody for it, how did you feel about it? Great? I felt great, And because I was kind of waiting in my head, I was like, I under show him this vocal melody. But he came in I think, pretty quickly with it. Like I came in on the piano, and it was like a matter of days before he came in. It was like I want to sing over that thing, over that piano thing, and it was great for the beginning. And I'm always just so happy if I come something because oftentimes, you know, both for John and I, we come up with things instrumentally and that we really like. But you know, if Anthony doesn't feel something to sing on it, it's never going to become a song. Many many pieces of music I have just gone into the ether because you know, just he didn't feel it, and fair enough, you know. But so I'm always just really happy when he comes, you know, and does something. And when he does and he does something that I love, great, you know. And sometimes you'll do something to me like I was like, oh, I really had imagine something else. But just because I imagined it doesn't mean that it's better, you know, And that's taken time for me to learn too. Like there's been many songs where like from my first gut reaction is, oh, no, it should be this other way. But it's something that's really beautiful that I just don't, you know, from my limited view. Let's talk more about this song. It's just interesting you you bring it in. You played on the piano. Did the ethereal guitar part happen next, or did the vocal melody come next? I think John started doing the ethereal guitar part right away, and that's something that's amazing about John. Like I came in with the chords, and pretty much, except for rare circumstances, he does the right thing right away. And even if I imagine something completely different, what he does is so beautiful and great and in touch with what I'm doing. Yeah, that it's just the right thing, And I think that happens if vice versa too. Like I think that's one of the things that we really love about playing with each other is we don't have to talk about it much. Once in a while it'd be like, oh, you know, I'm trying to accomplish this thing in this little part, so could you try doing this or that, but we do the right thing for the other guy's thing, and it's not a matter of like virtuoso musicianship or being a great musician or something. It's just like, I don't know if it's just similar reference points or either where or like sympathetic nervous systems or some sort of telepathic subconscious understanding that we have with one another, but we just do the right thing to compliment with the other guys playing. And he just started doing it right away, and it could have been something completely different, like like I actually made a demo for this song because it was like a couple of months we took off when the pandemic first happened and we were kind of like just stopped rehearsing because we're ever was trying to figure it out, you know, and I was making little demos in my garage and I had like a little beatbox and a you know, all these different things and which gave me an idea of what it would be. But it was completely different when he started playing and it became this real beautiful and an Anthony writes these lyrics that are you know, this really melancholy sort of yearning to you can say like I'm not the one you know that you're looking for, But underneath it, I feel this deep yearning like when is he going to be the fucking one? When is someone going to be the one? When can I find this togetherness with another human being? You know, which I feel is kind of a lyrical theme through about this record, you know, this like deep yearning to connect. I even had a stupid idea for the record to be to be called The Yearning, which was like, you know, it sounds like a fucking Disney Hallmark, you know special So you said he had you have like a almost a psychic connection with John when you guys play together. Has it been like that from the very beginning? Yes, I think that, you know. The only reason it ever wasn't like that, which would probably be like, you know, when he first joined and we made the first album, Mother's Milk is he was still super young, and I think the only thing that would get in the way of it being that is like kind of like tension or nervousness, like oh, what's the right thing to do and not trusting yourself yet. And I think it took him a while. He was so young, and he came in and we were already kind of a popular band, and I think he, you know, was just kind of concerned about, you know, how do I fit in, what do I do? What's the right thing to do? As opposed to just like letting go, which is by the time we started working with you on a next record, which was Blood Sugar Sex Magic, that was completely there, like he had let go of like worrying about what was right. It was just you know, letting his letting it flow, letting it letting God take over. How would you say your relationship with Anthony has changed over all the years that you know him? You know, Anthony since how old were you guys when you met fifteen and now we're you know, our next birthdays returned sixty? Wow? Yeah, the majority, the majority of your lives have been together. It's so crazy. I mean, our relationship has you know, grown and changed and been joyous and been tense and fraught with suffering and hurt and been accepting and like been through so many dynamics throughout the course of it. You know. So we meet him with fifteen and we become like inside pole every day we're together all day long, you know what I mean, Like right after school, we get together, where we're gonna get some weed. What are we gonna do? What's the hustle today? Where we're gonna go steal something, where we're gonna go run around? You know, what the fuck are we gonna do. We're gonna do something. We're gonna do it. Do it just dumb shit and beautiful shit, like really loving the things that we love, the nature of the art, the music, the places where we connect, you know. And then we start the band when we're twenty, and it already seemed like at that age the years between fifteen and twenty a are huge. It's like a year of sixteen and seventeen and eighteen or like ten years now, you know what I mean in terms of, you know, because time actually does speed up, which is fucking insane, which I'm realizing it actually speeds up, like theoretically. I had heard that before, but now it's like I feel it so intensely. So it seemed like ages had gone by. Like when we started to band, it seemed like we had been friends for lifetimes. And then we start to band and we're still very much in that kind of street kid mentality. You know, everything's a hustle. Like I remember, like we started a band, like when we first like record companies wanted to sign us and stuff, and it's kind of later on and they're like taking us out to lunch, and we're still in the mindset of like hustling a lunch. So it's like getting like you know, different guys to take us out to lunch, Like, yeah, we'll get this guy on Tuesday, that guy Wednesday. Like we're still thinking, like let's get them to take us somewhere expensive. Like it's still this whole fucking thing of like not just like like what would be the best thing for our music at a record company, but like how many lunches can we get? We're still in this complete street kid like mentality, you know, like um let alone, like thinking the long term of like what's white business wise or music wise or anything, which is so funny to look back at. But in terms of our relationship, you know, creatively, it really hasn't changed, like the essence of what it is and what it's informed by, which is so much still and I think the longevity of it is so formed by those years as kids like kind of like growing up in our own weird misguided way without real mature guidance or like anyone holding our hands into like this is how you become a man, This is how you become a grown up. These are like the tenants of morality, and you know, like we just didn't, you know, And I don't think I even started growing up until I got sick in my early thirties, you know, to be honest, But it's still rooted in that, like when you're with someone and you're going through these big changes and even though you're confused and bewildered and also like kind of like bumbling around like just trying to avoid pain and go to pleasure, you know what I mean, it's just like survival together. And something about that is really deep, you know. And I was kind of thinking this morning, like about how like as the years have gone by, there's been so many times and it was difficult between us, and I think it also works against us that child stuff, because we could get into like these scraps or be offended or hurt by one another in a way that's so fucking childish. It's like we revert back to being the like completely emotionally fragile and immature fifteen year olds in our fifties, you know what I mean, Like, we go back to that between us and it can be really difficult. And I think recently like we had something like that where we were doing that and it was like so painful, you know, and I'll go back and be like, fuck, I'm done, I'm out of here, and I can't deal with this fucking shit anymore. It fucked this guy, and I realize I'm acting like a child. But you know, because we're both acting like we go into this place, you know, and we kind of talked about it and we're like, you know, we do that, and we both acknowledged it, and it's kind of like, you know, we need to you know, we don't need to do that. I'll do it with other people, you know what I mean. Other people piss me off and do things that I that I find, you know what I mean, offenses, But with him, we go there. You know, it's like this constant argument, and so, you know, I always feel like we're growing. But you know I felt like that before. You're too. But I was thinking earlier today getting back. Sorry, there's so many tangents I could go down that the band being so successful, right, we've been the band's been together nearly forty years, and from the beginning, like to me, even though I know, like the real like business success and selling a lot of records didn't really happen, you know, until we had you know, made Blood Sugar and we sold you know, gazillion records. But for me, like from the first concert, we were wildly successful, beyond my dreams that I could ever imagine. Like I had been playing in bands before that and working hard, and you know, I'd go to my full time job all day, then go to rehearsal afterwards. Everything was like, yeah, come on, we got the gig and trying so hard, and from the first Chili Pepper gig where we had one song and played for like four minutes, the way that it fell between us and the way that it we connected with the audience and everything about it was like an explosion of success in the most like earth shattering way that I had never felt. That I didn't even know. And I played in fear. I was already playing big gigs with them, and like you know, it was like all at in an underground way. It was huge in la you know, but but all of a sudden it was like, man, this is like it was. We were done. It was completely successful at that point and never got more successful for me, you know, I can't speak for everyone. And then, you know, and then like right away, like within months, we were like selling out nightclubs, lines around the block to get in. We're playing with the Bad Brains and the Minute Men, these bands that I really loved. Record companies wanted to sign us. Emi Enigma signed us. Like everything that'd been struggling to try to make happen just happened effortlessly, and we just played and it was just like this this thing, you know. So anyways, success kept mounting, and then you know, we got gradually more and more popular, and then we made Blood Sugar. It really blew up and it became like an arena bandon this like really big rock band in more like a mainstream record selling way. And you know, I believe in God, Rick, you know. And I'm not a religious man, you know me, but I pray every day, you know, I really like it's a big part of my life, my connection to the divine and nurturing that, and and I know that my life is going better when I'm staying in touch with you know, going trying to be inside and stay connected to that part of me and my relationship to God. And I was thinking this morning, like success is all fun and it's great. Look, I like making money as much as the next guy, and I like, you know, living in an ice house and buying a bitch and stereo and all this shit, But the real reason behind it with the band, I feel like, in a lot of ways like that God put me and Anthony together to learn some shit, and we're here together to figure something out in a way that at and like I think, I don't think, and I don't know. Obviously I don't know, but if the band hadn't been this thing where it was like really successful, we probably would have gone different ways a long time ago. You know, so many times I want to go join a fucking free jazz band and just play trumpet and and but it's like, oh no, there's all this work to do, you know what I mean. There's another record to make, and there's a tour to do it. There's this to do, and oftentimes it's like grueling and painful, and like like my survival mechanism as a human, it is like, no, I don't want to go hurt myself. I'm okay, I can go to something else and grow creatively and like grow cerebrally in all these ways. But like success in a lot of ways has kept us there doing it. And it's not the rea is not like saying like we do it for the money, but it's like when there's when there's work to be done, you got to do it. And we're and we both have like very intense work ethics and disciplines in this sort of blue collar thing like that you do your work. You get up every day because you work what there's a mission to life, you know. And I kind of started seeing it in this divine way and it felt really beautiful, like there's a bigger picture and we're being put together to understand something, you know. And I remember once a long time ago, I went to go see this hypnotist and it might have been through you that you might have recommended me to this woman I can't remember in Santa Monica, and I went and lay on her couch, and I remember she got kind of frustrated with me because I didn't get hypnotized. And I was just too crazy to be hypnotized, Like my mom never fucking shut off. But she was like talking to me about stuff, and she was like go back in time, and I remember like like kind of being this like semi aware state and seeing me and Anthony like lifetimes and go lifetimes and lifetimes and lifetimes like a long time ago, and we're like fishing by this forest and we're dressed in like this like kind of like skins and shit, like animal skins, like having to survive like different caveman time, but not that far back, but something like that. And it's like something that we're supposed to figure out, and the universe puts us together to learn this ship and in this lifetime we've been put together to you know, by this circumstance. It's beautiful and it's interesting hearing you say that, because what I think about is the nature of your relationship with Anthony really isn't about music. Music's a part of it, but that's not what it's about. And it didn't start about music. It went on for five years before it became about music as a job. But it's it's more like almost like a karmic relationship, where as your relationship with John seems much more rooted in music. Absolutely talk about when ten or so year, ten or twelve years ago when John quit the band, What was the feeling, What was it like? You know, it's different because you quit. That was the second time he quit. And this is a crazy thing to say, but such a relief man because he was so unhappy, I see, and he's such a huge part of the band, and everything about it was making him unhappy. You know, he's so great at music and he sees so much at music that he didn't He was wanting to just do and you know, make his vision happen, and he didn't want to have to collaborate and listen to what someone else had to say that would be different than what he was thinking. And so it kind of caused a lot of tension for him and for everybody. And you know, I can't speak for him, but his yearning to leave and to grow in a different way away from the band was so powerful that when he left, it was like, Okay, the right thing is happening, you know. And both times it was like that. But the big difference is the first time he left where in Japan he leaves and it was so exhausting and stressful and everything not just you know, the band itself. It was really stressful for me at the time, but when he left, it was like, Okay, now what are we going to do to keep it going? And um, you know, we just you know, went through a different series of events, ended up with Dave and made another record, kept going and stuff. But this time when he left, I thought, my thought was it's over. I didn't think we would keep going because I was like, I'm not gonna do it. It It doesn't make sense. I don't want to get someone else and go on without him, like we've done all this great work. And it also happened like before he left, I had we had had a thing I said, I want two years away from the band. I need I needed the time off, like I just knew for me too. And that was when I went to school just like did different creative projects, like just wanted to go and grow in a different way, in my own way. And I didn't think that the band would carry on without him. And time went by a year and a half. Maybe now everyone else wanted the band to keep going, and I remember kind of having like thinking like I just you know, I just didn't know. I didn't think, And then it just started making sense to do it, like everything, like my relationship with Anthony. The band itself is a thing, like I remember, like like a big thing was people saying to me like, oh, we like you know, we we do so many fundraisers and things, and like someone said, like and like I started seeing, like, God, how valuable the band is not just for you know, our personal success or for making people happy, because it brings joy to the world. The bands a light, but just like that as a thing, like as an entity that really gives love and goodness to the world, which maybe sometimes I can't see because of all the work that can be really grueling, and but like I can, I can see it really clearly, like when someone saying, oh, will you do my thing to help hungry people, like oh shit, oh, we don't have the band going right now, I can't do that, And that kind of is being like that where I'm seeing it really clearly. But that element of it is there all the time, even if it's not a fund asure. And that started becoming clear to me. And I was just like, like I was doing some other creative project and it was good, like we were we were making music that I liked, and then thinking like, shit, man, I really want to bring this energy to the band and make the Chili Peppers happen. We can do this. And I remember like something clicking in my mind, like I got really excited about it again, and then um, you know, went to Anthony and you know, he was into it, and we did it. We got Josh. Did you keep up with John during the whole time that he was not in the group? Yes, both times and not not not consistently because it's you know, to be a little awkward stuff, you know, but mostly like the second time, like, as you know, we went on without him, and I didn't think that I would, and I told and I told him too, I'm not going to go on without you. And I felt like, like god, I kind of betrayed what I said, you know, But then I decided, you know, and I made the decision to do it. You know, people change their minds. I changed my mind. You know a lot of our most popular songs were musically initiated by him and created like in the large part by a musical idea that he initiated, and here were do it like going and doing it with someone else. But so I was torn in a lot of ways, you know, in that way, And I guess it wasn't so much that like that was my first thing, but then it just felt like in a lot of ways, like you know, we're having someone else play his ship all the time, you know what I mean, and like like getting together and playing recently with him. You know, we're rehearsing right now to go on tour, and we're you know, when we play the older songs, it's like, oh shit, now we're doing it for real. We're not doing like the cover version, you know what I mean. And that's an extreme way of saying it. It was never the cover version, but like in that way, it's sort of like, oh, now the real guys playing the real shit. And there's nothing against Josh because Josh honored it in a beautiful way. And I'm so grateful for Josh, and I love the stuff that we wrote with Josh too, and loved Josh, like not only was he a great musician, he's a very supportive team member for us, but yeah, when he left, you know, first a relief and then as it went on to like the initial relief of like you know, the tension at the time, but both times, as and particularly this time as time went by, like just real something that had peaked around the time he came back like this yearning for that effortless connection, that thing we're talking about earlier, you know, because with Josh it was like, yes, Josh a great musician, but there was oftentimes a lot of talking about what to do. Can we try this, can we try that? Can we do this? You know, hey, you know what I mean, not wanting to be offensive, can you try doing it in this other way? And him for the same way with me, I'm not saying like, oh he didn't understand, like I didn't understand, you know what I mean, Like he would play something and I was like, well, what's the right thing for me to do here? And that's just different reference points, different nervous systems, different things that you can't control, and like spirit things that I don't think we understand or you know, or that I don't at least like you know, so, you know, just really wishing for that effortless connection. And as soon as John came back, it's there, like every time I've come in with something, you know, like something that starts with a bassline, you know, not from a piano, and it's like John is the perfect thing from the beginning, like boom done. There it is. They don't have to talk about it. It's just a knowing. It's a gut reaction in your kidneys. Yeah, tell me about the first time that you played with John before he rejoined. What was that experience, Like, when was it and what was it? Like? I think that I can't remember the first thing, but I remember like he and I were talking about some jazz. He was really loving Charlie Christian, you know, but jazz guitarist you played in Benny Goodman's group. Yeah, And there was a couple of songs he was learning and he was like, let's play some of this jazz and it was just fun, you know, it's just fun to play that stuff. And then I think like he was recording something with some breakbeats and I came in and played on it at his house. Yeah, those were the first time and like within the context of doing that, I think we just sat there and jammed a little bit. This easy man like just it was never like there's something like big like the Clouds parting or anything, like just a couple of guys hanging out playing no big deal. I don't I don't remember any specific, like, you know, it's just nice and easy. Man. We kind of eased into it. John had the idea like, let's not start trying to write anything. Let's place play, hang out and play covers. That was fun. Yeah, how did you get to the stage of feeling like maybe we should talk about doing this again. Yeah, there was a specific moment John and Marcy came over for dinner one night, we can't remember, like either our girlfriends were talking in the other room or something, and we were just talking about shit. Nice said sometimes I really missed playing with you. And when I said it, I couldn't help it. I just started sobbing. I started crying, like and he looked at me and I saw tears in his eyes too, and I and He's like me too, you know, one of those things. It was just kind of beyond words or thoughts or anything like that, just love, beautiful. Yeah, and then we didn't really talk about it again for a while. And I remember seeing Anthony after that and I was like, you know, I think that John would come back and play with us, you know, And at first we're kind of like, whoa, that's heavy, you know what I mean, Because we're like full steam ahead with Josh. You know, I kind of remember when that was. We're like right around, We're like playing the Grammys with post Malone or some shit, you know. And then you know, shortly after that, like time went by, we were right and we were writing a record, a new record, and I think at a certain point we were like looking at what we had might have played some of it for you, I think, and feeling like, yeah, you know, we're doing it, but I just felt like we were missing something, and I don't, you know, I look, I liked the ship we made with Josh, I really do, you know, And I think and then I jammed with John once or twice. It was just like that effortless thing. I wish I could explain it articulated Rick, you know, like, but it's just this. The best way I can say it is like what I said before, We don't have to talk about it. Yeah, do you remember how Anthony reacted when you said it first time? I think a little taken aback at very first, like because it's such a huge change. But you know then that that shifted and I was like, you want me to talk to him for real and find out you know, and he was like yeah, And so I went over to John's once again and sat with him and asked him, said, you know, will you come back? And he said, let me think about it. And he thought about it for you know, I don't I can't. I don't know what happened in his head. But within a within a day or two, it was like yeah, but you know, and and and you know, there was something that he was concerned about, you know, like because I obviously when he left it was painful for him, not just us, you know, it was painful for him, of course. And I can't speak from that side of it, you know, I can only imagine it's a massive change, you know, and how you spend your days and the anchors in your life and what you work towards and what you do, and sometimes you get everything you want. But you know, and I think it's good for him to do what he needs to do. But he also remember him telling me like, I'm born to be the guitar player in the Red Hot Chili Peppers. I'm the guy that's supposed to be in this band. Like that's just the truth. And yeah, so we you know, we kind of went through that's kind of like like, well, it would it be, would it hurt? Would it not hurt? You know, what would we do to make it not hurt? And I'm like this and I need this or that and it's all good, you know, Like I'm a human being who loves to do music and me too on this whole process, like this record with John, Like man, he's fucking good and the best way. He's just so fucking good at music. But also he's so humble now and he could easily not be, you know what I mean. And all the things that he's doing, like all the great synthesizer work, all the ideas about mixes and sonic ideas and when to use reverbs or backward reverbs or what to do, like all his like big picture of music is so profound he does so much, Like the background vocals he does so beautiful and just knocks him the fuck out he does it. He's all like really humble and really open to having faith and honoring other people's ideas as well. I never am working with him where I don't feel seen or heard or valued, and that's a beautiful feeling. Do you remember when you first heard all of the lyrics that Anthony wrote for this album. What you're feeling was when he saw what he was writing. You know, I always am struck first by the melodies and by the rhythmic phrasing, like the musicality of it, And it didn't really hit home until you know, you guys went to Hawaii and started doing the vocals, because I'd heard him and always thought, Wow, he's really doing good shit. But when I started really hearing it and you guys working together in the vocals coming back, how evolved and how focused and how great he's done, Like this is just the best he's ever done. I feel like, by light years, like he's just fucking killing it, man. And Anthony is amazing in that way. And I've said this on other records that the fact that he started off in the band is not really being a singer and in the beginning like really having a difficult time carrying a tune in pitch and you know, just kind of like rapping and yelling and then turning into melodies and slowly evolving. Like I think that has everything to do with the longevity of the band, and I think that he's like he has everything to do with the longevity of the band because he's such a like this is my job, this is what we like the story idea. My mother worked at the same job for fifty years, like me too, you know what I mean. Like he has that real like blue collar thing about it. But his evolution as a singer, it's like this thing that every time it's better. Where most guys like usually as they get older, and obviously not the case, but a lot of guys start off as great singers and they just have this natural skill. They could just fucking sing, and twenty thirty years in they're just kind of like trying to recreate what they did when they were twenty, you know what I mean. Whereas Anthony is not. He's always going to something new and getting better and learning to sing. He's like the student of being a vocalist and his musicality, his sense of rhythm and phrasing his and the lyrics on this record. It always takes me a while with the lyrics, like especially the way that Anthony writes, like he's not like a narrative type of singer, very rarely is. He speaks in metaphors, and it takes me a while for them to sing cannon to start making sense to me. And also he's very verbose, you know what I mean. So there's a lot of words and a lot of times for me at first, just kind of the color of the words and how they sit next to one another, and how they make me feel that way, like the juxtaposition of words as opposed to the un the real lyrical poetic content of the thing. Time, you know, they sink into me over time. Some of the songs when he was working on the on singing in the studio and I'm listening to them, I'm listening to the cool nature of the phrases, like the phrases are cool, and the melody's good, and I'm and I'm liking it. But as you say, on the surface, you can't always hear what's happening. And I'm listening, and I'm listening and over the course of the day, and I'll be singing a song and then at one point it like clicks in. It's like, oh, this is what this is about, and I start crying because it's so heavy. It's like it's so sad. Some of them are so sad and heavy, heavy and sad and lonesome, and you know, obviously, sometimes they're really light and whimsical and fun, you know, but it just gets me wondering, like when he's writing about that stuff or here, you know, his relationship to the world and to his heart, and like I wonder if he always knows, you know what I mean, when he's putting the words together, really what he's writing about, you know what I mean? Or does it take shape as he starts putting down the words, like does he just have like a phrase that fascinates him and does you start coloring around it and filling in putting together this thing and does the like the real emotional underpinning of it, does it take shape? You know what I mean? Like like sometimes you know, you put something together just how you're feeling in that moment, and you don't even maybe you don't even really know. It starts on a subconscious level and then maybe there are enough clues from what's there to see, Oh, this is this is what this is about. I could go further in this direction. Yeah, I mean, having never you know, sat with him through that process, I don't know, and you have sat with him through that process, like watched him. Yeah, but it's more like I'm with him the day it happens, but he's usually doing homework up until the time that we meet. And then he comes in and he, you know, presents where it has and we talk about is it you know, does everything work as well as it can? Yeah? I mean I wonder if you know. I guess all lyricists are different. I remember one time I did this, did this record? I don't think. I can't remember if you produced it or not. I don't think you did. Did you the ll cool Jay thing for the Howard Sterns soundtrack? Yeah? Okay, so, and I can't remember if you were in the room when this happened or not. But we're getting ready to track it, and I'm sitting there with LLL and he didn't have lyrics yet. He might have had like a I think he had a course line. I make my own rules. It was the chorus line. And I'm sitting there, like literally sitting next to him, and he's got a pen in the paper and he starts writing the lyrics and he started with just sounds ah oh ah, like what how and rhythmic phrase of almost like grunts and just rhythm and sylla syllabelic sounds, and then he started like, so it's ah a word that has an ad has an ooh, and but then started doing it and putting just words together and writing lines around that and then it but it formed a narrative in a story and a whole thing like rife with like current events and philosophy and his ideas you know of him. And it was so amazing to watch him do it, and also that he was so free to like just do it in front of me like that, like like kind of like letting me watch him. And I was amazed by it. And so yeah, I mean, I don't know how Anthony does it. I don't know, but he fucking rocked it on this album. Man, he really it's the best he's ever done. He's singing beautifully, like really like and he's doing it rehearsal too, Like this is no studio magic. Like he's fucking singing this ship. So the longevity in the band, you know, has everything to do with his constant evolution as a singer. You know, like he's always I feel like he's there's always something around the band. It's more more expansive. There's also that like the pride in the work that you guys have. Nothing is ever phoned into any degree. The fact that we recorded probably close to fifty songs and that Anthony wrote and sang fifty songs knowing fifty songs were not going to be on the album, but because he wanted whatever was on the album to be the best that could be. And we'll only know that if he does all the work of doing all fifty songs, and even if there's an instrumental track that he's having trouble with, he's going to fight with it forever until he gets something because he sees potential in it and wants it to be all that it could be. And it's a real commitment to doing whatever it takes to be as good as it could be. That, when you know, for a band that's been around for forty years, is unusual. Yeah. I mean I can't compare it to other bands because I don't know so, but you do know because you work with lots of different bands phenomenal like like especially to hear you put it like that, like fuck, he didn't just like phone in some like let me get this one could be really good. I'm gonna do this one like he took the one that was weird and did the best thing that he could and found something that really made it work and turned it into a song. Yeah, amazing, absolutely amazing. Talk about the difference between playing with Chad versus playing with anybody else in the Chili Peppers, Well, but Shot, it's funny because you know, my relationship with Anthony is very personal and very much brother like, and my relationship with John is also very personal, very emotional, very intuitive, very connected. But my relationship Chad is like, like, we don't hang out outside of the band, never have. I'd probably been to his house once, you know what I mean. It's like this different thing, but it's just this very grounded, rhythmic thing. It's like there's no bullshit about it, you know what I mean, there's no not that the other ones have bullshit on them either, but it's just like we get down, we look at each other and that's how we talk. We very rarely do we speak about things that, you know, about emotional things, or about spiritual things, or about even things that trouble us or or your you know, that we aspire to. It's just just we get down and fucking hammer out some grooves, you know, and it's cool. I remember like once Chadas I've might have been a fiftieth birthday like ten years ago or something, and his wife went and like had someone come in film everybody talking about Chad for his birthday thing. And I remember feeling kind of like weird because I was like, well, I don't talk with Chad personally about stuff. And I almost was like embarrassed because there was like, you know, like well back when we were twenty one, I'm gonna tell this funny story, but like there wasn't this other thing, and I kind of said, look, chat and I we don't really speak emotionally about these things that I would normally talk about. Under these circumstances. We talk by playing. We talk by like looking at each other and knowing when to lay back into a groove, or knowing when to lean forward and knowing when to sit right in the middle, or knowing when he should lay back and I should lean forward, or vice versa, like all these intricacies of rhythm which color a song so profoundly, Like the way I mean, you know, man, you sit there and go and listen to rhythms, especially live musicians. Whichever way some person is leaning changes everything, and we do all this stuff just by looking at each other. And afterwards, I said, like, why the fuck should I feel like that's less significant then speaking or talking about you know, our fucking inner child or some shit like that. Is a beautiful conversation that Chad and I share and I'm so grateful for that, you know. And that's the way that we are, and that's what it is, and that's awesome. Do you feel like when you play with Chad it brings something to the way you play that's different if you're playing with anybody else? Totally? Chad is so powerful, like physically powerful on the drums and the dynamic like that he can go to the potential of where he can go is so like like I've heard of elephants, Like the physical power and volume and strength of where he can go is always there. So it's always coloring that if you want, I can look at him and be like, here we go, motherfucker, you know what I mean. And I know that he is going to explode like a fucking nuclear bomb. I'd better be ready to handle it, you know, And and also like, hey, it's time to get you know, really subtle and quiet and beautiful. He can go there too, like he's so dynamic, so it makes me just get downe with him. And he's also like she has a very meat and potatoes drummer, like a real rock drummer, like you know, a bottom style, you know, a big kick on the one, big snail on the two and the four. You know, like that he can lay that down heavier than any drummer I've ever felt before in my life. It gives me so many options, Like I can get in there with him on that one, you know, and all of a sudden it's just heavy, like heavy ocity. Or I can dance around, you know, in between it, you know, and it does something completely different, you know if I go and syncopated in between the holes, you know, so it just opens so much up, you know, whereas I you know, I've been fortunate in my life to play with like really great drummers, a variety of and it makes me play completely differently depending on who I'm playing with, you know, Like I play with Tony Allen, like the afrobeat guy, and he doesn't like anyone going away from his kick, Like don't dancer around a kick, play on a kick, white boy, you know what I mean. It's like don't come with some bullshit, and so you know, I you know, I love Tony, so I don't want to I'm gonna do what he says. You know. It's like I get mad dogged by Tony Allen, you know. But yeah, so yeah, playing Chad makes me, you know, And that's the sound. That a sound of the Chili Peppers, and you know, of that rhythm. Let's talk about you so you can make a face and inspire Chad to go heavy. Talk about how it works live, because one of the things that's fascinating about the Chili Peppers compared to pretty much any popular band today is that when you guys play, it is of this fluid thing. It's not like you play the songs the same way every single night. It's like you guys jam and things can go longer or things can go shorter. And you've in the past have gone on stage and are playing where no one knows what you're gonna you know, none of the individual members knows what's going to happen. Someone just starts playing something and something happens. You do that a lot all the time. So beyond the musical conversation that we hear, talk about you John and Chad looking at each other and playing what happens? Who leads? And can all three of you lead at different times? How does that work? Yeah? Definitely, all three of us can lead at different times. And it's trusting yourself. Like that sort of really comes down to, is trusting yourself. And the more that you can learn to trust yourself and love yourself and know that what you're feeling, whether it's emotionally or spiritual or cerebral, that that's who you are and who you are as of value and trusting the other guys to do something that's who they are. And that's kind of the crux of everything with us because that's where like a lot of the songs come from, jams like that. And when we're doing that, we're listening. You know, you really gotta fucking listen. You can't just blunder ahead, like just play a song. It's painting by numbers, dude, Like I'm not saying, like a song is a vehicle for a beautiful connection and emotion to happen. And you know, I believe in the power ever song. But if you're just like going out and playing the same shit every night, yeah, it's boring. For the musician. You know, it can work well if you're good at it fair enough, you know, but there's no element of risk. There's no element of danger, there's no chance to fail. And if I don't, if I go to see someone play, and if I don't think they're doing something that they might fail at because they're reaching, I'm bored. I just don't fucking care. And I mean I get it, like I'll go see a band, they'll play a song that I love, and it's just great that they're playing the song. But Neil Young, you know people that I really admire even great great you know, electronic musicians are always mixing it up and doing weird shit. But with us, in terms of the way that we relate to one another, I guess the best way that I can articulate it is listening and trusting. And you know, whoever starts something, you know, get inside what they're doing, Listen to what they're doing, where they're going, you know what mode are they in? Like it's there's so many things that have to happen quick in your mind, like, Okay, what key is it in? What rhythm is he playing? Am I going to come at it and just play something completely opposite to it to like, if John's playing something fast, we all do something really slow. It's like a bath for that fast thing to relax. And or maybe I'll go really fast right with him and we'll be playing together. It's jagged rhythm that's intense. Or I'll go really fast completely against him. That'll create a counterpoint that's a whole new rhythm. And then what Chad does. Does you do a halftime beater or of fast beat or just hits you know what I mean? No matter what's going to happen, and we might completely fall on our faces and it'll suck, or we might play the greatest thing we've ever played in our lives in that moment, and all of it's worth the risk, you know. And if you don't take the risk, you don't get it. Period. Yeah. Talk about the Silver Lake Conservatory, Oh thank you. The Silver Lake Conservatory is a nonprofit music school I started twenty years ago. Now we teach about eight hundred kids a week. And we started off in a little storefront where we were for the first fifteen years, and we had eight private lesson rooms and we'd like rent out different spaces around town or for our group classes like choir and orchestra and all the contemporary groups. And after raising money for like fifteen years, we finally bought a really huge, big building up on Hollywood and Vermont and now we have a big recital hall and four group classrooms and twelve private lesson rooms. It's been so great Rick these last twenty years. It's just given me so much, Like I get so much joy from it. I really thrive in being part of a community and feel like I'm doing something for a community. And I guess like essentially that's kind of like how I look at playing music too, even though like I said before, like sure, I like making money and all that, but when I feel like I'm doing something that brings community together and helps in that way, I feel a great sense of purpose. So like I get, I really get a lot from it selfishly, and I love it. And just like seeing the kids grow up, Like now that we've been around for so long, I'll like go to the grocery store and run into somebody who's like, you know, thirty five years old, an adult. I'd be like, hey, you know, I went to my school when I was a little kid, and you know, really set me up with my friends that I have now my best friends. We all met at the school and we sang in the choir together and you know, we had a band for a while. It didn't work out. Now I'm up whatever. You know, I'm a graphic design or something. But it's so nice to feel that like it. It moves me, you know, to have that connection to community and feel like I'm of you sit in that way makes me really happy. What age are the people who come to learn to play little kids? Like? We don't have an age limit, like the things. You have to be able to take care of an instrument and be diligent enough to practice it to do their work. That's the only requirement. So some kids can do that when they're five. Some kids can't do that till at fifteen, you know what I mean? So or never, you know, So it's all different. The majority of students are between the ages of around like eleven years old and eighteen like in there, But we have lots of elderly people that come to play and real little kids. And if you qualify for lunch tickets at school, you go for free and we give you an instrument and otherwise, you know, you pay, but it's just awesome. And I'm actually in the process of a few other people starting a new one in Watts, which is really rewarding as well. The thing that I like about it, and I guess it's the thing that I like about music too, is that my hope is like and I feel like I've accomplished this with the Silver Late Conservatory, is that long after I'm not I'm gone, it will be a music school there and kids can go in there and learn how to play, you know, Benny Goodman stuff on the clarinet. And you know, one of our purposes too, is not just a place for kids to learn music, but a place for teachers to teach, which is just as important for a teacher to have the purpose of teaching, you know, and to this knowledge to keep being handed down. And you know, we care about keeping the traditional instruments alive and you know, teaching theobo in a bassoon, in the French horn of the viola and all those things. And it's fun. It's like, it's just fun. How did you get the ideas started? I had it in my head for a while just because it just kind of seemed like a good idea, and then like a year before it opened. Remember, i'd like be dealing with a heartbreak of some variety, and I went down to Mexico by myself and I was reading a book by a great jazz musician named Horace tap Scott, and it's a great book just for reading. You'd love it. He wrote a book called Songs of the Unsung. You know, his story is really great. As an LA jazz musician and at one point he got an idea to start a music school in South LA. It was just, you know, for all the kids in the community in South LA. And he started having this orchestra called the Orchestra and all he had really also great adult musicians in it too, and then when kids were good enough, they would join it and they played every weekend in Lamert Park at World Stage and did concerts and it was a real just a beautiful thing. And his was like music and also literature and poetry and theater and all arts, you know, and but free and for everyone in the community. And it became, you know, a real connecting point in a community in South Los Angeles. And musicians that I love, like one of my favorite drummers ever is Billy Higgins and Billy Higgins did it with him, and so that's a big part of his book and he writes so profoundly about it. And I ever just being down in kind of a raw and vulnerable state down in me Psico alone, and I read that book and I remember, just like the last page like put him down. I was in tears and sorry, it's emotional time. It was an emotional time. But I was so in touch at that moment with how important that mission was and I could resolve. I set it down. I was like, I'm going home starting a music school, period done, no matter what it takes. I'll pay whatever it costs. I'm hiring the people, I'm getting a building, I'm building it out and starting to school. And I just went and did it, and just you know, new people to help. I had a friend, my friend Tree, who'd been a music teacher for many years, hired him to be the dean. You know, just got it. My friend Pete. We just got together, found a contractor got a place built it, did it. So I was just like with that resolve and I was like, I'm doing it no matter what, like top priority. And I and one of the lessons I've learned from having done it for so long. Is like when you have a good idea like that, go with it, you know, Yeah, and the momentum of just what it is has carried it throughout the years. It's such a cool thing. I still can't believe he did it. It's amazing, you know, every many of us have cool ideas for someone to actually do it and do it for twenty years and have it build into the thing that it's become. It's so cool and congratulations great having that vision that come to life. Yeah, thank you so much. I really hope for this one and watch to work out well too. Oo. Man, I love you. I love you too, And you know, Rick, just to end it, so grateful that we work together again on this. You know, we didn't work together for a while, and you know, the five of us together all bring something that is so different and what you bring is so crucial to us and has been for every record we've ever made together. And I'm just really grateful for that. Thank you for being there, Thank you for including me. I'd love to be part of the process. Super fun, awesome man, all right, touching. Thanks to Flee for sharing so much about the inner workings of the Red Hot Chili Peppers, and what it was like to reunite with John Freshanta. You can hear their new album, Unlimited Love, along with our favorite Chili Peppers songs on a playlist at broken record podcast dot com. You can follow us on Twitter at broken Record. Broken Record is produced help from me A Rose, Jason Gambrell, Ben Holliday, Eric Sandler, and Jennifer Sanchez, with engineer and help from Nick Chafee and Shangarlas Studios. Our executive producer is Mailo Valve. Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries and if you like the show, please remember to share, wait and review us on your podcast At a theme musics by Kenny Beats. I'm justin Richmond.