Dave Hill and the Epistemology of Norwegian Black Metal

00:00:08 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Just a quick note here. You can listen to all of the music mentioned in this episode on our playlist, which you can find a link to in the show notes for licensing reasons, each time a song is referenced in this episode, you'll hear this sound effect. All right, enjoyed episode. The following episode of Broken Record contains language that is extremely grim, infernal, cult brutal, and just sort of negative in general. My name is Malcolm Glabo. Welcome to Broken Record, where today we explore the dark world of black metal with Dave Hill, guitar hero metal enthusiast, spawn of the suburbs of Cleveland, Ohio, creative force behind a seven inch Witch Taint anthology, the first thirteen Infernal Years, and the forthcoming Sons of Midwestern Darkness. If you've never seen Dave's epic version of Stairway to Heaven with his eighty three year old dad on keyboards, by the way, you should probably drop everything and watch it now. Today, in a departure from our usual practice at Broken Record of doing thoughtful and sophisticated interviews, we're going to go deep and tell the Witch Taint origin story, which involves an extended encounter between Dave Hill's alter ego aka the King of Black Metal Lance from Gary, Indiana and the Norwegian black metal empresario named Satan spelled Saiam also known as Matthias. Why Norwegian? Because Norway is to black metal like Belgium, Mister Chocolate. What's the difference in the way one would play a guitar in a metal band and in a progressive rock band or in an alternative Can you just have give me a little tutorial on what it means musically? You know with rock, you can rock can be kind of whatever you know, you can be like, you know, sort of arim e jangly ethens or whatever. I mean. Well, metal, all metal, if they're doing it right, starts with Black Sabbath, of course, and that would be described to me what you're doing exactly a net. I'm butchering the riff to Black Sabbath from the album Black Sabbath by the band Black Sabbath, that's called the Devil. The flat at fifth is the Devil's interval, and in some cultures you can't even play it because it conjures the devil, Like in the suburbs of Cleveland, you can't play that no, but no, it was truly like considered. I think it's always been fine to play in Cleveland, but in some cultures, I think, yeah, it was considered, like you just wouldn't so that one that's basically having metal right there. Talk a little bit. You said there there are distinctions in lyrics and sound between black and death metal. Can you talk a little bit about from your perspective what those distinctions are. Death metal is more and by the way, there's going you know, if I may just a quick disclaimer, there's gonna. I would call myself a metal enthusiast, not I'm knowledge I'm extremely knowledgeable, I would say, but I wouldn't say I'm an expert. And I say I mentioned this only because there's bound to be someone who's going to be like, you didn't get that quite right, and so I'm just saying that admitting to whoever's listening, Yes, you do no more than I do. So death metal would be more about like gore and you know, just look at Cannibal Corpse's album covers and they're all very great, graphic and violent, and so the lyrics about that, like I think Cannibal Corpses, I guess they're stairway to have them would be hammer smash face, So that's death black black So death is more gore and all that, and black metal is more just dark and grim and satanic and depressing and very negative and about you know, it's about also more about can be about nature and about isolation. It's not a party, whereas I would argue that death metal is maybe more of communal music. Do you think that black metal bands take themselves more seriously than death metal bands? Death? Is death metal more much more tongue in cheek. Yeah, yeah, I think it's just more about fun and fantasy. I don't think any I've yet to meet a death metal musician who wasn't a and sunny person. And I'm not even kidding. Yeah, I mean any that I've ever known have been in sharp contrast to black metal. Yeah, though there I have met some very lighthearted black metal musicians also, But the stereotype or the general rule would be there humorless. Is there a particular black metal song or riff you could you could do right now to shoot shows what you're talking about? Well, I would say the stairw in my opinion, the stairway to Heaven of of black metal would be Freezing Moon by Mayhem, which I think goes up if you want to sound metal or sound black metal, how do you sing? It's more like with death meton a lot of metal you're singing, you know, death metal is more like cookie monster like words like you know a lot of that, and with black metal it's more a lot a lot of it is more like like more just higher and uh and just sounds much crazier in my opinion, Can you can you sing and play something death metally in that? I want to hear that, that voy those two, those two voices, the death versus there trying to think of like you know, there'd be a lower like that and black metal will be more like but is that really hard to do? No, especially as sloppy as I'm doing it, it's not. But but more of that where it's open and you're because usually in metal, in any sort of power like in rock, you wouldn't use the the third of the chord, the minor third, but but you you do. You there's a lot more of that and in black metal. We'll be back with more broken record after the We're back with broken record. The key figures in Norwegian black Metal are Uronymous who was in Mayhem, and Vargue Victorous, who actually murdered Uronymous and who now lives in France and occasionally posts nasty videos on YouTube. These are not pleasant people. All of this is detailed in a book called Lords of Chaos, The Bloody Rise of the Satanic Metal Underground, which I have to say is the most unintentionally bananas rock and roll book I've ever read, and which I was required to read as a condition of Dave granting me this interview. Is now is Mayhem. Their first sort of signature anti social movie is the church burnings. They're burning down these no Way, I guess is rife with two thousand year old wooden yeah churches, And this is one of the things that's so unintentionally hilarious about them. They've decided that the great foe of civilized world, the civilized rule, is Christianity, even though of course no one goes to church in Norway, right, It's like the least Christian country in Western Europe. So this subculture has grown up in defiance of something that basically doesn't exist. Yeah yeah, yeah, Like they're burning churches that no one attends. So varg varg Victorius is the kind of what is is there is there an analogy to our Victorius in American society. He would be like the Charles Manson. He's a Charlie Manson basically. Yeah, yeah, I did have people know who he is. Yeah, responsible for several murders. Well, again it depends who you asked. He didn't know. I think he is really only I know just one murder. Just he murdered Uronymous for the guitar player from me. Oh, that's right. And dad took his own life dead yeah, but prior yeah dead who was the singer was Swedish singer from a band called Morbid. He was a singer in Mayhem and he, yeah, took his own own life and when he he he this is very very graphic and gross. But he put a gun to his head and didn't Uronymous come across the body and then take two pieces of his skull and make necklaces out of them. Yeah, supposedly said apography. Was that true? I think the necklace thing is true. But then you know, there was rumors that he took pieces of the brain, because you know, he's dead, shot himself with the shotgun and there's brain splattered all over and you know, so there were rumors that he cooked and ate some of the brain, but I don't think that's true. I mean that's supposedly just lore. But but the necklace thing is supposedly true. And they mayhem in a famous concert had pigsheads on steaks. Yeah, yeah, there's pigs I mean sometimes, but gorg Roth did that too. Or it's like a thing, it's a thing. Yeah. Good. You know, if you can't get pigs heads, you sheep heads. And there was some band I don't know if it was Wattain from Sweden. I don't mean it wasn't them. There was some black metal band not from Norway who got so much animal blood all over a club that the club had to go out of business. And I would say that's taking it too far. That's very black, yeah, and and unsanitary. I would say the uh oh, yes. Here's the reference into the pigs heads. And this is from an interview with Bard. Bard was the drummer from He was also known as Faust. He was the drummer from from Emperor and is quote's unquoting for but I remember at the gig one person ate some piece of the pighead, which was very old, so he got very sick. Yeah, and that that what you just read. I mean that I cannot The first two hundred pages of Lords of Kans are full of gems like that. I mean, it's it is one of the most extraordinary reads. So this is a history of essentially, it's really a history of Norwegian black metal, although it has pretensions otherwise, but at its core and it sort of traces the lives of all of these through interviews of all of these key figures in the scene, and especially Vark the Charles Manson. Yeah, he's in there quite a bit. First, have you met No, I don't want to meet him. That would I would not want that. Why because he's too evil? Yeah, I just you know, I don't. As much as I enjoy all this, you know, I'm kind of a softy and I really don't want to be around a guy like that. Here is Vark is my favorite arg quote, and there's a lot, I mean, there's a long list of potential candidates. But he gets put in prison and the first thing he does is he gets really angry and he lashes out and he says, it's much too nice here. It's not hell at all. In this country, prisoners get a bed, toilet, and shower. It's completely ridiculous. I asked the police to throw me in a real dungeon and also encourage them to use violots. Yeah that's I mean, it's very typical arc. Yeah, yeah, that I mean, that's gold right there. So you read this Lords of Chaos in and do you decide that you would like to get in contact? Yeah, I someone from that scene. Well, yeah, I was reading this book and I found it fascinating on tons of levels, you know, being a fan of metal, but then also love the absurdity of some of the things you just said, Like what you know, there's hell vat I'm not pronouncing it with the record store, so it's still But anyways, so this store that Uronymous opened, at one point he said like, yeah, we wanted to give all the customers torches to walk around to see, but then we realized that wasn't practical because it would melt the vinyl if they got it. And for someone to say something like that with with just like dead serious, just no irony Whatso it was just to me, this does not get funnier. I found the book just completely entertaining in that way with tons of stuff, and yeah, so it became fascinated. And so somewhere around the early two thousands, just to entertain myself, I started going down. There was a website called FMP six six six, I think Full Moon Productions, and I think this site is still up and it's they're not out of business. But there was like a mail order for black metal stuff, and so I just started emailing bands and labels and stuff just for my own fun, like making crank calls. Only you know, at this point, I'm a grown man and I'm questioning how black these guys are and saying, you know, I actually my band witch Taint. I called myself Lance, a teenager from Gary, Indiana who lives with his mother and has the most extreme black metal band of all time called witch Taint, which in America, I think, you know, people know taint is slang for the perennium, which is interesting as now we do this witch Taint live show, and we've taken it, you know, we've done it in London, Oslo, in Germany, and they don't have the same they don't have that work. They don't have they don't they missed the nuance, so I have to explain it. So then they're like, oh, that's a great band name once I explain it. But anyway, so it was that on the orders of that day, and when you you're obviously the competition. We're in the world of black metal, the name of your band is obviously of enormous importance. Sure it just I mean, it doesn't really matter what your band name is. If you're doing you know, all rock, it can be anything obscure. Yeah, I mean they're I mean, Spoon come one, great band, but come on, yeah, but the Snakes are really super high when it comes to band naming. And I'm just curious about So your feeling was that which Taint was was, as was the kind of apotheosis of black metal band names in terms of what this character in my mind Lance Lance, you know. And I don't want to pat myself on the back too much, but I will say that all of this came to me and so clearly when I was started doing it that I did not think for a second about what the band name should be. Literally, as I was typing and making it up, I named the band Witch Taint as if it had been in me forever and I'm in it. I believe it to be the greatest band name of all time to this day. Why it's very good. Why Why was Lance from Gary, Indiana. I didn't really know anything about Gary, Indiana other than that's where Michael Jackson and his family were from. And so to my mind, I thought it was just like this white bread American town, which I don't think is quite the reality at all. Oh, it's like a post industrial wasteland, right, and which I didn't I didn't know that, but it was too. I love that you're from Cleveland, Yeah, and you feel the need to go somewhere else to get a post industrial wastement. Yeah, well, because I thought, like you know, and the perception on the mean streets of Cleveland in northeastern Ohio in general is that Indiana is much softer. So I think that's where my mind went. And Lance, you're emailing around and someone takes debate. Yeah, this label called Planet Satan Revolution, I thought that I was emailing. They were putting out records by this band from Oslo called Mysticome, which is an industrial black metal band whose music I've still never heard. I should stress to you fifteen years later, but they only put out one album in twelve years. Yeah, yeah, well that's I mean, that's a big thing with black metal, and I think it has worked for a witch Taint as well. The less music you actually produced and the less she performed. Ideally you should never perform live, but the less you do is almost the more you do, if that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah, we'll be back with more Broken Record after this. We're back with Broken Record and the ever Darkening encounter between Lance from Gary, Indiana aka the King of black Metal and Matthias aka Satan, Norwegian black metal empresario. So the first email and anyone can read all these emails at the black Metaldialogues dot com. The first email was I thought I was emailing the band, so I'm insulting the band. And then the guy writes back saying, this is you know, the label, and that's when I decide, well, I'm going to try to get signed to the label with this band that doesn't exist, witch Taint. And by the time I'm emailing this guy, it's it's been going on for a couple of years that I've been emailing, but just very casually. It'd be like late at night to be getting ready for bed. I'd be like, let's email black metal band, insult them just for no read, you know, like you would make a crank call. I'm pathetic, I admit it. So I started emailing this guy at Planet Satan Revolution and just kind of telling him about how extreme my band was. You say that you had heard about this band, Mysticum, and you had heard they were very black, and then you listen to them. Wait, I think we have to you have to read. Do you have them? Can you read? I can pull it up, you put just pull it up and read the the crucial section of that first email. So the first email, So I send this email from my email address at the time, mister lou Rawls at aol dot com. By the way, how is that not a dad giveaway? Does he not? Does he not Google Lou Rolls and understand that you can't be the blackest I would, yeah, you would think first. Okay, So here's the email, subject Mysticum question mark. Hey Mysticum, guys. I got your email off the internet. I was surprised someone in a black metal band would use email, but whatever, I guess we can't expect you guys to live in caves. All the time. If you were serious about black metal, you would though. Anyway, the reason I am writing is because I was wondering if there were two bands called Mysticome or something. The reason I ask is because my friend Todd told me about a band called Mysticum that were really heavy and extreme and that I should totally check them out. So I went out and bought your record and all I got was this total pussy metal instead. Is there another band called mysticm that I should know about? I'm really into super heavy and extreme black metal, so if there is another Mysticme that plays this this kind of music, I would really like to know. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure tons of chicks did what you guys are doing, but I'm into some serious shit, not this strummy bullshit you guys seem to be into. Anyway, let me know if you have heard of these guys. Are you guys on MTV Dark Regards Lance aka the King of Black Metal? Right? What is the time that elapses between when you send that email and when Satan response? So I write on November nineteenth, two thousand and four, five forty three pm. On November twentieth, two thousand and four, eight forty eight. Am, Oh, he's right on it and he is an Oslo, remember, Yeah, so we do the time change. He's yeah, he's on it fast and he do you want me to read what he wrote? Yeah? Read the Matthiasa's response. Just to be clear, these emails, there are thousands and thousands of words of ease emails. They go on epic. It went on first six months. Yeah, and I think you can read all of it in about half an hour maybe, but yeah, no, it's thousands of words. So he writes back, Hi, exclamation point, so right away. Not very black metal. First of all, I find your email a bit bare faced and strange, but I have decided to answer you anyway. You have now come to the label address of the extreme Mysticum band. We have never heard about the pussy Ones you mentioned about. Label name is Planet Satan Revolution all caps. Check out www dot Mysticum dot com. Under release this link you can download the debut album from nineteen ninety six for free. If you are interested in ordering this masterpiece of black grimness, let me know. I am soon sold out, so be quick. I like that. So he's kind of hit, you know, he's staying on message. Oh yeah, yeah, he's selling selling. This band is as a cult act originally signed Touronymous, Uronymous prenzes, rip of Mayhem's own label, Deathlike Silence Productions, parentheses DSP. And since you're claiming to be a quote unquote real black metaler, you should know that famous history of what happened with him. If you're into real black metal, you should also know that email addresses has nothing to do I'm reading there's a bit of English as a second language in here. As you can here to do with being quote unquote true or not, you have won yourself. Mysticum has been in the underground for twelve years, so we know what we're talking about here. There is nothing wrong in using emails to spread the disease. Living in a cave has nothing to do with black metal at all. As long as you are dealing with satanic and occult things, believe in what you are doing, you can do whatever you want. Of course, Mysticum has never been on MTV and never will be. Such music are not loved by the MTV crew and too extreme to be on a channel that only sends crappy, happy, sellout shit dark regards. He steals my salutation right out of the gate for Planet Satan Revolution, say Tom, managing director again back, he's a businessman, yeah, he writes back, defending his business model for putting out mist Coom records. Basically, so, I write back, dear say Tom, I see your point. If you're going to put something into something, in this case a record by a bunch of pussies called mysticm then you should get something out of it too, some money and also a reputation for working with pussies like the guys in Mysticum. I don't like the idea of everyone, or anyone for that matter, being happy. As you mentioned, though, that is exactly what I'm saying. Black metal has nothing to do with being happy. It should make you want to live in darkness, perhaps with a babbling brook nearby that would mock you in the night. But I fear I am being too harsh. I realize you may not think that Mystic Come are a bunch of pussies, but that is probably because yet you have yet to hear my band Witch Taint. In a perfect world, black metal would exist totally in the mind, as it does with me. Much of the time. We would hear the black sounds pouring through our brain as we sit in darkness, or maybe there could be a torch nearby. This is true black metal. A compromise might be just having bands play in the woods, and there could be a bonfire, and a select few would be permitted to hide behind trees and listen to the band's perform I realize, however, that this is impractical and it would be awkward if everybody ran into each other later at the grocery store or something. It is hard to be truly black when shopping for groceries, which is why I rarely eat unless I absolutely have to. It goes on from there, and then the wonderful turn is when Satan reveals that he has short hair, a wife. Does he have kids? Yeah, he has a wife and two kids. These two kids, and so the plot so it gets more. It ramps up way more from what I just read, and you know, talks about all this stuff. And eventually my friend John Kimber and I sat down and recorded the first ever witch Tint song, which I can play for you, which you know, before you play it, I would point out that you do some absolutely heroic build up in which you'd like to be signed by his label and you claim that the music you're doing is so black that he should remove all sharp objects. Yeah, like making his family's not run around, and that you have to even yourself sometimes when you're playing your own music, have to turn it off to kind of keep yourself so safe. Yeah. Yeah, like I have to go take breaks from it's too much. So this was not under promise and over deliver when you were dealing with with Satan. You really really this is why. I mean, there's a moment when you're reading the emails when you're like, oh shit, like what if Lance, Lance is building this up is the greatest, darkest, blackest song of all time, And like now he has to deliver because Matthias keeps asking send me something, yes the MP three, Yeah, because I keep talking about the music, but it doesn't exist because it's again just a grown man emailing this guy every night. So I finally decide my friend John Kimber I go over to his house and we record a song to send to send it. It's called Necro dream Raper my character. We're not talking about sexual assault, We're talking more of a psychological Uh. I don't want anyone to get the wrong idea about the song title. But again it's from the perspective of this character that I was just trying to think of the most disturbing title that I could put on this song. Can So this is the song I said, three minutes and thirty three seconds. So you send this to Matthias and he's not impressed. No, he's not at all. But at the same time he does accepts it as my He analyzes it, it it gives his criticism, and his criticism is super spot on, like he naw's what's wrong with it? But then he doesn't dismiss it at all. He goes his whole thing like how it's not it says it is not depressive enough. I did not think to cut myself and so but at the end of it, he says, send me some more tracks so I can decide. But the problem is then I didn't have anymore. That was the only one was the challenge for Witch Taint. It took thirteen years. Finally we have it a record. Witch Taint Sons of Midwestern Darkness Satan's long wait is over. Here's their song Are You Ready to Black? Metal? Broken record is produced by Justin Richmond and Jason Gambrell with help from Bruce Headlam, Mia Lovel, Jaquita Baskill, Jacob Smith, Julia Barton, Jacob Weisberg, and of course Rick Rubin. Special thanks this week to A. C. Valdez. To hear the songs featured in today's episode, check out Broken Record podcast dot com. This show is brought to you by Pushkin Industries. I'm Malcolm Godwo. Thanks for having me. If you get any you know, there's probably gonna people will call me, you know, say I'm a pussy or opposer, you know, false metal guy or something, and just for forward those to my AOL address, we will defend you against him