Dave Cobb: Nashville's Super Producer

00:00:08 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Just a quick note here. You can listen to all of the music mentioned in this episode on our playlist, which you can find a link to in the show notes for licensing reasons, each time a song is referenced in this episode, you'll hear this sound effect all right. Enjoy the episode. Over the past fifteen years, Nashville superproducer Dave Cobb has managed to inject some much needed soul into country music. Dave Cobb has earned six Grammys for standout work with artists like Jason Isabel, Brandy Carlyle, and Chris Stapleton, whose song Tennessee Whiskey We're listening to now and as You'll Hear Today, Dave Pull's inspiration from sources not normally associated with country music. Dave worshiped Ozzy Osborne as a kid despite growing up in an avout Pentecostal family, and in the early nineties he cut his teeth as a session guitarist in Atlanta, working with hip hop and R and B producers Jermaine dupri and Dallas Austin. Rick Rubin and Dave Cobb connected over zoom recently to talk about Dave's unconventional path to becoming a country music producer. They also talk about the power of being an outsider and the value of goofing around in the studio. This is broken record liner notes for the Digital Age. I'm justin Richmond. Here's Rick Rubin and Dave Cobb. So how's everything been going. How are you feeling. I'm good. I'm just surviving the apocalypse. You know, it's it's a weird time. I'm sure it's weird for you guys as well. You know, I just it sometimes feel like, you know, we have a job. We go in the studio, we don't see the outside world. That feels kind of norm until you actually leave, and then then I realize, you know, we're on the other side or something. Have you been able to work straight through you know, I took there was a lockdown here, so I didn't work during that time, but you know, I went back shortly afterwards, and it's you know, it's always in the back of your mind, right, everything about it. But you know, I think I'm always sensitive to I think maybe it's our job to read the room and read everything around you, and you can just see people come in a little bit disoriented. You know, we have to kind of shake it off. You know. Tequila usually helps with that though. Yeah. I feel like as soon as the music starts playing it it changes everything. Like whatever whatever else is going on in the world is diminished in that moment when the groove is good. You know, absolutely absolutely, man, You're you're right about that. What's going on out there? Everything's cool, usual, usual stuff, just you know, trying to make good stuff. Well, you always seem to pull that off. Dry my best you got. You got the best career of all time. I just want to say doing being a producer. You you have the best career of all time. Tell me why you Why do you say that? Because you get to do run DMC, you get to do country, and you get to do Slayer. It's like, come on, and you know who doesn't want that career? You know, it's just the music I like. You know, it's just the music I like. Yeah, but you get to do the music you like? Yeah. Absolutely, No, I'm very I'm very fortunate. Absolutely So tell me how did you end up in this, uh, in this funny position that you're in. Um, you know, I never I never wanted to be a producer. It wasn't something I woke up and said, you know, I'm going to do this when I grow old. You know, I wanted to be in a band and and and have a career being a guitar player in the band, and and you know, of course, we find that we signed a typical bad record deal and kind of got stuck. And if I did anything, it would go to the label. If I didn't do anything, it would go to label. So I started producing friends of Minds bands and then they got record deals, and next thing you know, I'm living in Nashville. So you know, it's but you know, through that whole world, I went through being a session player for a long time as well, and learning from people like Jermaine dupri and Dallas Austin and and uh and just kind of figuring it out, figuring like, you know what, if I'm a producer, I get to go home. I sleep in my own bed. That was really the big cell for me, you know, because I never liked touring. I never liked travel. So it's interesting that the people you came up under were Jermaine and Dallas. Considering what you're doing now, it's just it's again, it's another world. Well, I'm I'm from I'm from Georgia, Savannah, Georgia. But I lived in Atlanta when in my formidable year is kind of coming up and and those guys were just owning the town, you know. And this guy, Darren Prindle bought me into play guitar on the session for Dallas and that's how kind of how it started. And I was fascinated with that world. Man. I loved I loved the era of R and B. You know, in Atlanta, it was it was on fire in the early nineties. So it was cool to kind of see some of that stuff firsthand and the talent that was in the room, you know. But I always my passion was always to make rock and roll records. So I moved up to Los Angeles thinking that was the kingdom of rock and roll. And I go out to LA and I wind up producing dis Guys Shooter Jennings and having kind of a you know, a country single on the radio and it kind of started going and then the country then kind of fell on my lap. I mean, growing up in Georgia, I didn't I didn't really love country. It wasn't my thing at all. I mean, it wasn't really really even my parents saying my parents were, you know, I had My grandmother was Pentecostal minister, so we heard a lot of church music. But aside from that and a lot of secular stuff escape except for the super mainstream country in the late seventies and early eighties, and man, I wanted nothing to do with it, you know, I wanted to listen to a CDC and Van Halen and led Zeppelin and Beatles, and eventually, through meeting Shooter Jennings, he'd introduced me to the good country, which I call a good country. Then the obviously Whale and Jennings and Jerry Reid and George Jones and all the stuff I really loved now, so I fell in love it. Once I found the rock and rolling country, I think I got it. You know, when I heard Whale in his band, his band were playing rock and roll for all tensive purposes. There was a phaser on the guitar, there was a you know, almost like a driving country funk groove to the drums. I got it all of a sudden. It made sense. There were rough edges, I guess I was always looking for music that had rough edges. Rough edges always attracted me, whether it was you know, hip hop, R and B, soul, country, bluegrass, whatever it was. I want rough edges, you know, I like the mistakes. You know, tell me a little bit about what you saw when you're working with Dallas, your studio guitar player. Technologically, what was going on there and how does that relate to how you make music today. Well, I didn't get a ton of time with them, you know, I was mainly in the studio cutting tracks. There was a guy named t Smith that was signed to his label, Rawdy Records, and I got to kind of work with them and develop the demos. But I remember taking those demos and they wound up using one of the tracks and I just recorded it with one mic I don't know, a cassette, cassette four track or something. And I remember going to the studio with his engineers and next thing you know, they were using gates the trigger you know, MPCs to put samples in it and kind of build a track, and I remember it's being so cool they're able to do this. I mean, this is something that took god knows all day, you know, to do. And just watch how technology has changed so much is amazing. But it was cool to watch the way those guys thought, I mean, they were doing everything we're doing right now. I just took a little bit longer, you know. And I remember going in and watching them do vocals with artists. I remember walking into the Deborah Cox session and Deborah Cox had filled up an entire twenty four track with backgrounds, and that was the sound of those big records he was doing at that time, had track after the track and layer after layer, and that's with no technology, that's just singing and just building it. It was It was cool. It was was watching an absolute, you know, masterpiece come come to life in front of you and seeing how all that came together. This is when sampling became a no no all of a sudden. Everyone was getting sued for samples. So me and a couple other kids would go in and jam and they'd say, you know, can you play something like Curtis Mayfield? So then I go down a Curtis Mayfield deep dive, or so can you can you play something kind of like the Jbs or the Meters? And that was an education in music to learn those records and try to figure out, I mean, no one can play like any of those bands or any of those guys but it was cool. We just jam all day and they had a dat going the entire time, and then they would take the DAT and then they may take one bar of it and turn it into a new sample. And it was it was cool. But it wasn't really the record making process. It got me. It was the education of incredible bands and artists I heard through people that knew a lot more about in me the music, you know, and and learning the studying Curtis Mayfield's guitar playing. I mean, it's something I sneak in country all the time, you know, whether I'm doing a rock record or a country record, it's the soul. I'm always trying to get the soul that's on the soul record because to me, that that's that's the magic. You know, it's that that's that swing that you're kind of missing the one a little bit and you're coming right behind it, you know, with a bass or whatever it is. It's that pocket beautiful. So you were saying that where you grew up, there was not there was not music in your house other than church music. Is this correct? When you were growing up pretty much? You know, my parents weren't. I mean, they're amazing and my mom absolutely supported me playing music. She sneak off and buy me a drum kid or take me to a bass lesson or whatever. So she was there. She was supportive. But the music I mainly heard was, you know, at church, because I felt like I couldn't get out of church. I had to go to church, you know, since I'm the grandson of the of the preacher, I had to be there Monday, Wednesday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday morning, Sunday night, vacation, Bible study, Christian school. It's like you couldn't get away, you know, couldn't get away from it. So what I did like about that is I love him Tho still to this day, I think, I think they're just beautiful, the cadence of it all. And obviously that's that's a huge building block of country music, so I understand that. But we had a piano, we had a pedal steel in the church, and an acoustic guitar. No drums, but uh, just the music was definitely steeped empty. But I would I would go out and find Black Sabbath and Ozzie. I think I got maybe Ozzy first. Maybe it was you know, a blizzard of oz was the first record to discovered by Ozzy and had to hide the record, had to hide it, and I had had an azzi poster and I had to hide it in the addict. You know, I would for sure we go into hell if they were found. Was that Your first memory of your own music was Ozzie? No, The first memory I ever had with music, I maybe was really young. My aunt she uh, she had gone through a divorce and she came to live with us for a little while, and she bought some of her records, and it was during disco era, you know, this is late seventies, and I remember she had really great records. But the records I really remember was the forty five for New Kid in Town by the Eagles, which is my first favorite song. I didn't know there was the Beatles at that young age, but those harmonies I was so attracted to. It's such a brilliant, brilliant arrangement on that song. So I remember that that record being probably the first record that that I go WHOA, what is this? You know, and just obsessed with it until somebody stepped on it and broke it. But that you know that and disco duck this might have been the first formidable records of my life. You know, Disco Duck was a good one. Yeah, he's in top ten for me of all time. Bicks of that, you know, and then and then it graduated to Ozzie and would you say mostly hard rock heavy metal was the was the The Beatles were the thing my dad did like my dad did, like the Beach Boys. That was one of the ones. He loved Buddy Holly and he loved Elvis. So I did hear a little bit of that on Greatest Hits cassettes, you know, Yeah, but uh yeah, the Beatles were kind of my thing because I remember listening to The Day in the Life by the Beatles and thinking, like, how does humans make that music? It just doesn't seem I don't know how what what kind of stars have to align for that to happen? You know, that song, everything about it is perfect. I mean, Ringo is my favorite drummer of all time. Every drum fell a single bowl on that song. The bassline is defying what any other bass player was doing at the time. You know, you have this crescendo of strings that it goes into explosion into a whole different tempo and different Feel and Alarm Clock and Psychedelic Oz at the end. I just I was captivated by it. It doesn't get better, it doesn't get better, and it doesn't get old. Ozzie too, Yeah, Ozzie too hearing you know, like Suicide Solution and and all those songs. Again, I thought I was doing something really dangerous, and I think that's what I liked about it, you know. And but you know, Ozzie was you were You got a chance to work with Ozzie, which is I'm so jealous of that. But Ozzie, even though it was heavy, it was catchy and they're beautiful pop songs and that stuff you know here and uh, mister Crawley, I mean, it's just a beautiful classical arrangement to that song, you know, the keyboard at the beginning, you know, and and Randy Rhodes guitar soul. You could sing every riff of it, and everything Ozzy's saying was just ketchy, ketchy, ketchy ketchy. When he does melodies, he always seems to descend. People look to me and say, he goes down and everybody else goes up. He just he did pop in a different different way, you know. He meant so much to me as a kid. I think that first Black Sabbath record is probably the heaviest record of all time, you know. I know there's my Sugar and bands that are really heavy and powerful and awesome, but that record is so terrifying. You know, the big church bell and everything just terrifying. It scared me. The song Black sabbathysists heave Us. It cuts period and I remember, you know again, I grew up so heavy in church and they used to actually have Sunday school meetings about you know, Ozzy was worshiping the devil, and you obviously all the backmasking stuff, and kids were knights in Satan's service. You know, we heard all that stuff. So it made it extra scary, you know. I think I think that's while I was so attracted to it. It just seemed like, you know, oh man, this is dangerous. You know. It's funny to see the footage of him in the Azzie documentary before he goes out on stage where he gets on his knees and he prays and he crosses himself. It's so beautiful. Absolutely, but we didn't know that. We thought he was you know, he legitimately eight bats daily, you know, but that must have been cool. But also you've got Tonya Almy in the band, and he's a butler and Bill Ward, I mean, he's absolute ledges. But I think Tony Almy might be the riff master of all time too. I think so. I think he is. I mean, Jimmy Page is number one for me. Let's Zeppelin. Jimmy Page for sure number one guitar player. But man, Tonya Almy just as riffs terrifying. It's amazing when those guys, as soon as the Black Sabbath guys plug in and play, it can't sound like anything other than Black Sabbath, you know, it's so in great. It's like we think of you know, so many bands try to play like Black Sabbath, but that's just how they play. And whenever anyone plays like them, it doesn't sound really anything like it when they do it. It just it's it's just the natural way that it comes out. It's unbelievable, thrilling. I think there's something to Bill Ward's playing. It's got this hurry up and slow down boh. It's just so catches you and it slows up and speeds down, and it's so heavy, so have every fill he had. It's just it's beautiful, beautiful, so beautiful that whole band. Man such a fan. And then after Ozzie, what was your next? I think I got into band. It was an exciting time, you know, coming into late eighties early nineties, All of a sudden there were bands like Fishbone, which I adored Fishbone. I thought they were great. I love that band. I thought they were mixing up everything, and I think music was exciting for a while, where the beginnings of Lollapaloosa where you had Alan Jennings and nine Ish Nails and Fishbone, all the radio starting to be the beginning of alternative music, and the radio playing this music that seemed to be going like this and just spreading out and music with evolving. I mean, you had a lot to do with it with Red Out of Chili Peppers. They were one of those bands. It's like that they didn't really sound like anybody else. They sounded like all the cool elements of lots of music that you liked. And then for some reason, maybe that format just changed one day and became like Okay, here's the rules, and you got to play by these to have a hit. But at that point, it feels like you could have a hit by not playing by the rules. So anything that didn't play by the rules I got into, And particularly Trent Resner. I was really into nine Ish Nails. I really thought it was just again super dangerous. You know, even though there were clicks in programming, he didn't feel like that. It felt soulful. Absolutely. Maybe back up before that, Van Halen was a big one for me too growing up. I just you know, Eddie's a guitar player who I think every kid who started playing guitar in the eighties wanted to learn how to play a look like them, but nobody could. I And I sat and I studied that stuff like textbooks and learned every riff. And I've never been able to use tapping in a song. He was able to do it, and it was awesome and catchy and and uh, it's so much melody and what that guy did. And again, super soulful player. So I was really attracted to that too. And Guns of Roses I adored, you know, at the typical Southern story of you know, cousin m worked at a tape store and he had appetite for destruction and he picked up. You know, two girls are older than us. I was thirteen and we had wine coolers and a dirt road and listened to Appetite for Destruction. I don't know what's more rock and roll than that. And obviously, you know, I don't think I even like looked where the girl was. I was too scared. But just the list hearing that, I think I was more occupied with the cassette of guns of roses than I was you know anything at the time. You know, when did you start playing guitar? Thirteen? Drums are my first instrument. I started really young on that, and then bass and then guitar. I figured I couldn't really write a song just playing drums with the instruments in your house. My granddaddy Cob my dad's dad, he always played, and my grandmother, the preacher. She was a beautiful singer. She had written songs, had gotten published. You know, she actually got a publishing deal from Disney in the forties in the middle of the war and had to turn it down. So she had had a bunch of Christian songs published. So there was it was around me. She gave me a guitar young and my other granddaddy gave me a guitar, and my parents gave me a couple of lessons, and so there was always around. But you know, I don't remember a time not playing music. You know, I wish I was at this age. I wish I was good at something else. Not that I'm good at music, but I wish I had a hobby. I mean, you might need to tell me some hobbies to take up. I've tried. I've tried motorcycles and I like to look at him. You know, I don't do sports. I don't watch sports. You know, I need a hobby. So if you got a hobby, Rick, let me know. Would you like to read? No? Hell no, I'm dyslexic. So yeah, I'm looking at looking at reading. It's just like it's as will put me in a jail sale it's audio books. Audiobooks might be your I think I think it's the OCD man. I need to find something that that totally takes me away for a second. But pretty much, if I have a day off, I'm trying to, you know, chase something music related every day, you know, but I do need something. Maybe it's dominoes. I don't know. So guitar starts at thirteen, the first things you're playing are along with like Ozzie Records, Van Halen Records. Is that the first Yeah, definitely, which is terrifying because no one should start with those records. You know. I think when I say I was playing along, it was probably really shittily, you know, But you know, I think learning you know, Crazy Train or something early on that those were the ones to stick with you just bawn on. I don't know, you can kind of handle that too. It's two strings for the most part. For that when it gets the other part, forget about it. But I think I learned lots of parts of songs. I don't think I was one to ever learn every single note of it, So I know, I know, like lots of songs starts and that's where it ends. And I think that's probably probably it made me get into writing and stuff like that more because I can you know, I didn't have the patients to even learn the whole song. So again, but you know, all that stuff filtered in ACDC. I forgot a CDC massive one for me, massive massive ACDC fan. I had a guitar teacher that he had a black SG and he would only teach me ACDC, so I go pick up, you know, sneaking by dirty d under cheap and walking there, and that's how you would teach me. So we skip Mary had a little lad went straight to highway to hell. You know, ACDC huge, Angus and Malcolm huge to me huge, And I still play a g chord like the young brothers. They don't play. Yeah, they skip a couple of strings, and I still play like them, you know in that sense? Do you know that Malcolm would use heavy strings and Angus would use light strings, and they would pick their chords so that between the two of them it would be like the two hands on a piano. Really, I did not know that that is so cool. Some he told me, and maybe you could validate this, that it might have been their brother George. It would sneak a piano under the guitar sometimes, Is that true. I know that they would try out their songs on piano as compositions to see if the song stood up. Oh wow, yeah, I don't know if it was ever on the records. I think somebody should make a piano version of AC's the greatest hit, be Great. That might be That might be your next project, I know, too bad. I can't play piano, but yeah, Bedtime with a CDC. You know, that's a that's a good one, you know. I don't know how well that would put you Hell's Bells the Singers kid to sleep, but it would be fun to listen to. Maybe Chris Stapleton singing Hell's Bells would be really good. I could imagine, you know what, he could sing the shit out of a I bet he's a hell of a rock and roll singer. He can sing the phone book. You know. We'll be right back with Dave Cobb after a short break. We're back with Rick Rubin and Dave Cobb. So you got to work with the Colds, right. That was the first first rock album I ever produced, was the Cult Electric And tell me about walking into a situation because I know you'd done rap early on walking to that band at that time, because I like, I loved that band. I was a big fan of the Colt But that record did not sound like what the band sounded like prior to you making that record. How do you go in from producing BC boys walking in and going like, Okay, you guys are gonna change everything. How does that happen? It happened in stages and it wasn't well, I'll tell you, I'll tell you the whole story. They had liked the hip hop records I was making, and they reached out and as if I would do a remix. They had already finished the album that was going to be electric, a completely different album than the one that we made, and they came and asked me to remix two songs from their new album. And then they loved the remixes and said, and it started like, let's remix it, but they came, so I had them replace stuff to make it more like the way I wanted it, and then we made the new version of those and then they said, well, maybe this is just what the whole album should be. And then we just made that made that album. It didn't start with the idea of either making an album. It started as a remix project. Wow. But I mean, you know, the guitars on that were just to me. It was like the first record post seventies or early eighties that had that rock guitar. Yeah. Well, I always loved I loved rock music, and they thought of themselves as a rock band and as a rock fan. I said, well, what you guys, do is cool, but it's not this, And if you want it to be this, we can do this. And they're like, well, yeah, let's do that. Wow. Yeah, man, that was such a great record, such an inspiring record, you know, coming up because it felt dangerous, you know again, music maybe at that time was starting to get a little safer, and you made sure it wasn't in the Yeah. I was still living at the dorm at NYU, and I would walk from the dorm to Electric Lady where we recorded that album. It was a good experience. How did you wind up in La? Like? What made that happen? From from New York? I came out to do a soundtrack album for the Lesson Zero movie and I loved that movie. Cool. I was living in a hotel for nine months and eventually decided to buy a house, not thinking I was going to live in LA. But when I came to La, I would stay in a house instead of living in a hotel, because if you've lived in a hotel for any period of time, it's not a great it's not a great way to live. So got a house thinking this would be the place I would come instead of going with the hotel. It was right across the street from the hotel, but it was a house so it felt more private. And then really just never went back. I never officially moved to California until after being there for about five years and realizing, well, I guess I live here now. Man. That less Less a zero soundtrack the Hazy Shaded Winter cover on that, Yeah, I produced that. Oh man, Yeah, I love the Bengals, Love love the Bengals, and and that's that must have been intimidating too, because that's a Simon a Garth Funcle song, and like, you know, just all of a sudden, I felt like I didn't know the Simon Garfuncle wrote that song. When I heard your version of it, I thought that they had written that song. And it feels like their song must have been a huge hill to climb to make that their song. You know, it actually was pretty natural. They picked it themselves. I had picked a song that I thought would be great for us to do together. That was that was a yardbird song. But I imagine them doing it in harm with harmonies, and it would have been a really cool thing. And then they're like, well, why don't we just do Hazy Shaw to Winters? Like, okay, fine, and then that ended up being what it was. And also, if I'm my memory serves me, h, Aerosmith was on that too, right, Yes, And I grew up, you know, Aerosmith was one of my favorite bands growing up, So that was the that the first time, I guess we'd already done Walk this Way, so it was the second time I got to work with them at that time. Were they getting along when you guys recorded that song? Is that good Aerosmith time? Or were they they fighting? I think they were always sort of cool, not cool, you know, like there was never a time where they weren't speaking that I knew, and there was always this sort of tension rivalry in the band, but it was always okay to be around them. I know. I know you've done a lot of country stuff. What was the country record that got you? Obviously you worked with Cash, but was there a specific country record that kind of got you? I mean, growing up, I liked like the pop country that you would hear when I was a kid, like Glenn Campbell was great. I watched Hehaw, you know, so the guys on Heehaw and always liked the you know, the picking, you know, like dueling banjo's like that that kind of I was like folk music as well, SOALY came through those roots. But I would never I would never think of myself as a fan of country music because so much of the country music at the time that I was really involved in looking for music was a kind of a plastic sound that that didn't really speak to me. I feel like, what's one of the great one of your great contributions is you've made country music great again, and I really appreciate that. I love speaking of Glenn Campbell man which tall i'man that might be the perfect song I think not only knows in which tall i'man might the best best songs of all time, you know, absolutely perfect. And then knowing that he played on you know Monkeys albums that I grew up loving. You know. Yeah, there's a great picture in my studio where the Monkeys came and they did I think they did well. I can't remember the song, but they did one of the songs with Mike Nesmith in my studio, and there's pictures in the wall of all those guys, Belton Jarvis, the producer bringing Monkeys in the studio. I feel like we don't have fun now like those guys had fun. I feel like we're we're you know, not really live in the dream the way they did. You know, you call the eighties, which are probably a blast. I don't know. It's always I have a feeling, it's always dudes in a room working hard to make something good is ultimately what it is, and everything else is just a fantasy. Yeah, I don't know, man. I read the stories of people with drug habits and yellow Lamborghinis and we missed them all, you know. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know that even those guys would say those were the fun times. The probably don't remember them. You know, are there any are they a limmus records that you have, Like I like the drum sound on this record. I like the guitar sound on this record, and the vocal sound on this record, anything that jumps out. There was a time that I thought that way, and then I've learned since I'll tell you. I'll tell you like there was a time when I want to learn all the secrets. Okay, Well, I really like the Highway to Hell album. I think for me maybe the perfect rock album, so so sonically, you know, that's good sounding guitars good sounding drums. If you try to make other drums sound like those drums, not only will they not sound like not sound like the Highway to Hell drums, they won't sound like the good version of what they actually are. So I've come to realize that I'm not trying to get a sound that's like that's been anywhere else. It's more using the stuff we have here, what's the best that we can make this stuff sound? And it really does open up the floodgates in terms of, you know, feeling like you need special equipment or special mics or special you know, it has to be a NIVE console, it has to be an API console. It's like they do they or it has to be done on tape or any of those things. It's like those things all have a sound, but they're not required, and we can make something good using pretty much anything. And I continually hear things that blow my mind that we're made in really suboptimal ways. So those are, you know, proof that it can be done. So I try not to get too fanatical about either equipment or the right way to do anything. I almost feel like if there's a right way to do it, chances are doing it a different way might be more interesting. Yeah, So always looking for the opportunity to find a new way to make something interesting. You know, I've never been able to nail anything I've ever tried to chase. I think you're I think you're right about that. I've never been able to nail any of the great sounds and records I've tried to chase, not once. Yeah, I think it's a losing battle. I think's it ends up being just a waste of time. When I first started producing records was a really unfortunate time of music. Around nineteen ninetynine is when I start taking it seriously. And I remember at that particular time, I mean, you probably were the only person to not doing that and have a success. But you had to have a click, and then you had to have you know, the drums miked a certain way, and you had to have a little loop in the background. You had to everything had to be perfect. You had to do everything in an assembly line fashion. You had to do the drums and the bass and the guitar and finally get to it later. And I remember starting off that way and I just I just sucked. I sucked, and the record sound like shit, and I just didn't know how to do it. I couldn't figure it out. And I think when I said, you know what, I'll just starve is when I started having success making records with everybody playing together. I only did it because I thought it was, you know, this will be a demo or whatever, and maybe maybe maybe someone will hear it and actually make the record. But yeah, I could. I sucked at the rules. I just and I tried to play them. It's not like I was defiant or playing or renegade. I just didn't know how to do it. And I don't understand technology same And I think, also, what you what you just said, like so often the demos of songs are better than the records, and it happens all the time. It's like the beauty of capturing a moment that sounds like a moment in time. It's not just everything's perfect and everything's in time and everything's in tune, but it's actually the one time they played it like this that's a thrilling feeling. And it's one of the things that I think is so great about bands from like Black Sabbath and led Zeppelin era is they didn't they didn't think of songs as a such a tightly structured thing. The length of a solo would go, however long the solo felt good. It's like if you hear the live if you hear the live versions of the songs, they're very often very different from the record versions. I guess the record versions were the live versions of that day right exactly exactly, and there was a there was a free them in the way that was done. And it seems like somewhere along the way, the idea that the record and live and everything was just supposed to be exactly the same and all perfect has has ticking some of the energy out of the process. You know, I never liked pre production on records. I think it's the anti christ. I just hate it for the same reasons you just said. You know, you always missed the best vocal performance the first time somebody sings a song. You always miss the intent in the riff after you've rehearsed it twenty times. You know, I think trying to treat record making as if you were making the demo is kind of my preferred way. You know, it's easy. I feel like it's cheating, you know, because I've had so many instances and still do for somebody, especially now everybody's got to technology at home and they're able to do some incredible demos at their house. And probably my worst thing is when somebody goes, let's listen to the demo, let's get let's get back to you know, let's let's let me listen to what I did here. It's like, you know, you've got it there, let's just use it. You know you've got it, you nail it, Let's just use it. I just had a conversation with an artist last week about their demos being too good, and I said, you know you, the demos are so good, like they're so produced that you can't even tell if the song is good enough, because the production is so good that you it sounds finished, like it sounds great. That's fascinating. You can't even tell this. That's there's a lot of vlidarity to what you're saying. It's true, it's like it may the song may be great, but you don't know because the harmonies are stacked in, they're so beautiful and the interaction between the parts and that's new instrument comes in. It sounds so cool, and so many things that we like happen. We think, oh, that's that's a great song, but it's it has nothing to do with the song at that point. That is so fascinating. Yeah, I think I think people are fooled by sounds over songs quite a bit. I think you're right about that, you and I think for the simple fact that some people can't hear a song and it's raw's form and get where it's going too. I think it's is a fault with you know, a lot of people down the road because it's it seems like you know, particularly and some country music stuff, they have these demos. The demos are done records, and people hear it it sounds like a record and like that's it. That's great, you know. But again if you if you just pulled down acoustic guitar and played it, maybe wouldn't feel the same way. So I love I love the iPhone demos. Those are my favorite ones. I love it when it's just somebody you know, you hear, press it record, lay it down on the table and all the you know, not quite finished. I love that kind of stuff. I love when there's somewhere you can get involved and and and run with it. You know, Yeah, as long as you hear this the seed idea that's like, oh, there's something good here. So who's on your bucket list? You've you've literally worked with everyone's heroes. Who's on your bucket list to make a record with? I don't know, I don't know. It's not it's not like a bucketless thing. It's more like I'll hear something that will get me excited about an artist, and I get excited in the moment. It's usually not a long term thing. What's the last artist that's done that to you? The last one I can think of that really got me excited was James Blake, and then I got to work with him, and that was really exciting because I loved his music. Yeah, he's kind of making his own lane, right, absolutely, Yeah, I like I like people who make something that's I love nine in Schnails for that reason too. At the time that nine and Schnails came along, there was nothing like it. Most of my favorite music is pretty um outside of the mainstream, but so good that it ends up becoming the mainstream. I mean, I think Chili Peppers are one of those bands for sure. You know, well, system of it down is a great example because they went from like I can remember producing the first record and the program director at Kai Rock, which is a big rocks you know, alternative rocks station, and Angelas saying this is the band we will never play on our station no matter what. And then one year later it was the both number one played and most requested band on the station. And but but if you heard it, it didn't sound like it belonged in the context of everything else going on. It was much too left of center. But I think the song that was on the radio was so catchy. You managed to make you know, every part of that song catchy. Well, it's them, It was really them. It's like they're The songwriting is so good and they play so well. Even though it wasn't familiar, it was and it was groovy. It was really danceable. And it's one of the things I like is heavy music that's danceable, and um, you know, so much of heavy metal is not. You know, the Iron Maidens and the Judas Priests tend to have a kind of a straight coldness to them, whereas ACB see Aerosmith, let Zeppelin have a groove about it, and even Slayer as fast as it is. It's groovy. It is. Of all the speed metal bands, they're the groovy one. Agreed. So how come there's never been a Rick Rubin album? Have you ever thought about doing that? Never really thought about it. I think it would maybe be too hard to come up with what I would. I would want it to do too many things that it couldn't do. Beautiful thing about it? You know, Just pick pick one thing and have all the of all the people you work with it you love, make fantasy League bands of them. Take you take Joe Perry, put him in a band with you know, Angus Young, and then put you know the drummer for you know, Chad Smith in there or whatever. Just make make Kaja a dream team. You know, Yeah, I can't. I can't imagine doing it. Come on, I think it'd be fun, you know. Tell me about your You did an album with I guess we'd call it a concept album I did. There's there's a record I adore written by an English guy named Paul Kennelly called White Mansions, and it's just uh, it was really cool again for me. It was a gateway record of country music because it was produced by Glenn John's and done in England at Olympic Studios, which I think some of the best records in history were made out of the studio. But it had Wayale and Jennings and Jesse Coulter, and had Eric Clapton and his band playing on the record, and Steve Cash and all these these great Southern people going over to England and making this record, and it just it was a concept about, you know, the beginning, middle and end of the Civil War and the reconstruction and it's just a beautiful story and it's cinematic, and I always love records that are cinematic. I think that's why I love you Nancy Son Sinatra Bang Bang or something. It's like a cinematic Even though it's one guitar, that record really took me somewhere. So I've always wanted to do a concert record. So I kind of got some people that I love that are great singers to all sing about the stories of their childhood and growing up. And it could have been about a grandparent, a son, or a daughter or parent whatever, these Southern stories. And so we met a record called Southern Family, and it was it was really cool just to make a record for art sake, and not for commercial steak, not for any other reason. And I'm really blown away that these people let me work with them for one and second of all, the label actually put it out because it sounds like, Okay, I'm gonna go to the label. I got a concert record. Okay, it's about southern people. Okay, we're gonna have a lot of people on Okay, how are you gonna market it? Like? There really is no there's no way to make a concert record go. I don't think you know. But it was just pure art piece and I'm glad I got to do it, and I'm really proud of that record, beautiful. Can you can you play us something off of White Mansions? Just because I don't know that album. I'd love to hear what the inspiration. There's a song called Story to Tell. It's what the first song on the record, and I'll show you what I like about it, Okay, just to me. It's a masterpiece. And the thing that's brilliant about it. There's so much restraint in that song, and if you if you pay attention, the strings kind of sneak in and they're really cool because the strings aren't doing a typical string arrangement. It's not fifty things going in fifty different ways. And the cello aren't splitting off from the violins. The violas it stays as one in this unison note and it'll stay on one note and at the end it finally go somewhere and it's so powerful, and the snare is not existed in the song. It's a sidestick sidestick, wait, wait, wait, and then snare drum and then strings open up and it's so it's it's a masterclass in production, I think, because it's just the tension. It's supposed to be tension, because it's the first story in the in the tale of the record, But it's just it makes you worry. It makes you worry, It makes you worry, and it makes you kind of I don't know. It just it becomes answer from something that's so small, and the and the piano at the beginning, just the diamonds on the piano that held chords. Is so simple, it's so brilliant and her Vogel you can hear every tremble in it. Beautiful. How did you come across it? Shooter Jennings played it for me beautiful, first time I ever heard it. He you know, that's his mom on that and he played it for me and it was again. That was a record that got me into country music, you know, written by an English guy, you know, recorded in England. It seems like a sideways way to get into it, but that was the record. That record to me is a cornerstone. Yeah. There's something about when music travels a distance, right, it takes on a different almost a fantasy like approach. Like the Beatles were making American blues and rock music or led Zeppelin, we're making American blues music, but they took it to an extreme that no true bluesman men would ever do that. It would be it would be garish for a bluesman. You know, it's like but because they're seeing it from a distance, almost like a spaghetti western, you know, like a it's viewed from this, it's from a distance and you're imagining what it could be. Same as true in hip hop, like the original hip hop was an inner city thing and the inner city groups like Africa, Bambada and Saul Sonic Force, they would dress like more like Parliament like, they would dress like people like from outer space. They didn't embrace where they were from. And then it took like Run DMC, who were more suburban kids, to dress more like b boy gangsters from the hood because they really came from the suburbs. And there's this like seeing it from a distance, you can romanticize the story and embellish it in ways that are really thrilling for the uh, for the audience, for us, you know, that's fascinating. I never really thought like about that. I saw this great documentary recently on Connie Plank, the you know kind of the the producer did a lot of the German Yeah, and Uh. When I was a kid, I loved Houdini, the hip hop group Houdini. I love them. I was way into it. I didn't realize that they went to Germany to record with Connie Plank, and there's like six degrees of separation from kraft Work to to Houdini, and I didn't I didn't even put two and two together. But again, I think I'd like them because they sounded like they're from outer space, you know what I mean, Like it was every the sounds were so weird, and it didn't sound like you know, the I don't know, it didn't sound like where I grew up in Savannah. It sound like it was coming again from a whole, whole different place. You know. I love music that does that, and I guess maybe you're right. I mean that has its very southern, but something else has stirred in there, you know. Yeah, it's southern in a way that someone one who doesn't live through it could love it. Do you know, Like, if you're living through it, you see the good and the bad. If you're looking at it from the outside, it's just a romantic vision and you can really embrace it and maybe go too far, you know, in a way that it becomes um more theatrically beautiful. Right, we're gonna take a quick break, then we'll be back with Dave Cobb. We're back with the rest of Rick Rubin's conversation with Dave Cobb. Let's talk more about producing. So, how did you end up in the in nineteen ninety nine you find yourself starting to produce? How that? How did it come about? How did you switch from being the studio guitar player. Well, I was in a band again at that time, signed and it just felt like it was it was I was stuck because the label was trying to sell to another label, and I wasn't going to ever get out of this deal. So I started producing friends. But basically I just fucking lied. I said I was a producer. I wasn't a fucking producer. I know shit about producing. I didn't go to producing school, you know, I didn't know shit. I just fucking made it up. One day. It's like, I'm a producer, and then i'm you know, then I'd like, you know, I gotta I gotta go to Los Angeles because I want to do rock and roll records and I gotta be out there. And when I got out there, I was producing a couple of little things here and there and met a producer manager, and all of a sudden, I was a legitimate producer, you know. I was on a producer roster. So I kind of lied my way into the whole thing, you know. And then after i'd really worked with Shooter Jennings, I met this guy Jamie Johnson through him, and then we had some records kind of work with him. And then I met Sturgil Simpson through him and we did a Stergil Meta Modern record, and then Jason Isbll just kind of kept rolling, you know what, would have been the rock artists that you would have moved out in the hopes of getting to work with at that time. Well I did. I mean I would have. I would have loved to work with, you know, Paul Rodgers on something you know. But I've loved to work with you know, anything you know relating to the stuff I grew up And I mean obviously Ozzie or or any of the bands that that I really loved growing up, Humble Pie, that would have been a dream one. But he was Steve, Steve Marriott or somebody like that at the time. But I didn't get to work with any that stuff. But I did find work with this band rival Sons that kind of took off in the rock world, and I've gotten to work with a bunch of rock bands through them, so I still get to do quite a bit of rock and roll and I still love it. But yeah, man, the producer thing, I just I fell in love with it because I've always been a studio rat, even when I was in a band or a session player. I love being in the studio. I love working really fast, capturing a moment like like you said, like a yearbook, and just remembering that moment, and I was a session player, so I played drums and bass and guitar. So I love helping people find the parts. And I just love getting involved with the songs and just being around it. And even if you know my day is done, I'll just hanging around the studio two or three hours later and just screw off and look at stuff. You know. Still I have the same feeling about a studio that I had when I got my first real guitar. I remember getting an SG really bad seventies, like the worst one, Gibson SG, and putting it into my bed and just looking at it until I fell asleep. And I remember smelling the case, the smell of a Gibson guitar in a case, you know. And I feel that way about a studio still. I just you can't get me out of them, you know. And if I have a day off, I'm either looking at stuff about studios or reading about you know, engineers or producers or whatever it is. I just I'm completely enthralled with everything about studios. You know, you typically play on the records that you produce. I do. I play a lot. Jimmy Miller one of my favorite producers. He produced my favorite air of stone stuff, you know, kind of let it bleed through exile. He was a drummer and he would go in from what I was told. He would play percussion with the band and he kind of helped kind of guy the rhythm and the field. So a lot of records. I play acoustic guitar as a shaker, you know, I treated like a shaker or a play a shaker or whatever it is. Instead of having a click, I'll just become, you know, the click or the human click for it. So yeah, I like being in there. I don't. I don't know if I can feel it unless I'm kind of in it. And even if I'm not playing on something i'm in the room with the band, I don't. I don't. I never liked the separation of control room and studio. I love being in the middle of it the whole time. I love the instant communication, especially if you have a guitar on, you can go, Okay, why don't we try this part for a bridge or try this chord here. I feel like it's a it's a bit of a crutch to have a guitar on the whole time. It helps me work faster. You know absolutely. Are you ever surprised after being on the floor going in and hearing it through speakers? For sure, it's usually sounds like shit, But now usually I feel like you can feel the take as it as it goes down. I feel like you kind of feel that one. But I've definitely been surprised where ones I didn't think was the one was the one too. You know, somebody else may may have a better idea. Somebody said, you know that that second one, we should listen to that one too, and then they're right and I'm wrong. Somebody told me a long time ago about sometimes and actually I think if somebody used to work with you, Greg Gordon, it's a kind of a mentor to me. And Greg Gordon told me it's like sometimes it just feels like a record, and I'm always looking for that take. It's like it just feels like a record. You know, I don't know what it is. I don't know what that means. Yeah, sometimes it just kind of comes together in a funny way where like the take before it, everyone's doing pretty much the same thing, and the next one's not like everyone's playing a lot better. It's pretty similar, but all of a sudden it goes from like mediocre to mind blowings. Yeah, I don't know what that is, but there's something to it. And God, I think I think you know, being in the studio, you kind of just make stuff up and and it just it's a lot of feeling as opposed to being clinical about it. I'm never clinical about anything. I don't I don't think I have that kind of smarts to be super clinical about stuff. I'm always looking for what was it about that one? It's just like you're saying that take, that's the one. I don't know why I can inscribe it to you. Do you do a lot of tend to do a lot of takes or No, not really, but I have done a lot of takes on certain things. I mean usually I think by fourth or fifth take, I think you kind of have a good sense of the song. You know. I'm not somebody that goes in there and just says, try something else. So I think I'm always kind of really involved, and if there's a part that's missing, I'll suggest something. I don't necessarily write it, but I'll suggest to somebody to write it. So I like to work super quick, super fast, and just get it down because I think the tension span mainly in blaming it on myself, I think goes after you do tons of takes. But there's there's definitely been times where we've recorded a song and felt pretty good about it, listened to it later ago like I don't know, if we got it, I'll just recut it. It's easier than I don't think, you know, I don't think I could cut ninety takes of a song. I think i'd be over it. You know, what about you? How do you do it? Takes? What do you do? Debates? Really depends on the artist goes different ways. Sometimes it's sometimes it happens and you know, one or two or two or three takes, and sometimes it's I've been on projects where we've done I don't know, ninety takes or something. You know, it's like wow, who depends on the artist? Yeah, I love going in and usually I try to get you know, two songs a day done. Still nice, And it's not it's not because it's like a bragging right to get that done, but I just love the fin sense of completion. I mean, I mean, I'll be totally completely, but just the basic of two songs and then then I like kind of goofing off. I've really value goofing off in the studio, which is probably something I should never say out loud, especially when when labels are paying me money to make records. I shouldn't tell them that I love gooping off in the studio. But I think there's a lot of the time of camaraderie and joking around and listen to records, and that informs what the record becomes. Absolutely, and sometimes sometimes the best ideas come in the non work time in the studios. Always, Yeah, I produced a Less Strokes album, and on that I had them come to the studio and just jam every day with the idea of creating something new because in their minds, you know, the album was written, they already had all the songs like come in play every day before I get there for an hour, and when I get there, you know, have something to play for me that you didn't have when you got to the studio, but that you make in that hour. And a couple of things ended up being on the album coming out of those sort of just experimental before the real session starts playing, you know, and you're recording the whole time, right, We were recording the whole time, but it was more about the writing of it. It was more about them being in the room together and playing sometimes. It actually the take came for that so cool playtime. Sometimes it was just like, oh, this is really good if we chop it up like this and then make it into a song and then they would play it. Wow, that is so brilliant, that is so smart. Shit just a doubt again, and that, I'll tell you. The idea for that came from the fact that they all while they all came from New York and grew up, you know, playing together all the time. As bands get older, they ended up moving to all different places, so they don't really get to play as a band as much as they used to. So they were coming together for the first time in you know, really years to make a record and it felt like even if nothing came from it writing, just being in the room playing together as a band with no stakes would end up having a good effect on the performances later in that day. It's also a different like when you're trying to execute something and you know what it is, is different than when you're just playing free to make something up. And I thought having those muscles open, those make something up muscles open to bring into the performance of the thing we know we're doing could be a good thing and turned out to be. That is absolutely brilliant. It probably made them feel like they were in rehearsal space, you know, in the parents basement or whatever, when they're fifteen again or something. You know. Yeah, really sharp, I love that idea. I'm gonna steal it. I'll send you a pick. Yeah. I think it's any anything we can do to get an artist to tune into their lives at the time that they were doing their either their best work or the time that they most loved what they did. You know, because if you work with some artists that have been doing it for a long time, it has become a job, right, whereas when you're first doing it, there's usually much more of a passion in the process. And you can imagine the difference between making your first or second album and making your fortieth album, you know, or your fiftieth album. Those are different things. No, you're absolutely right. That is such a smart concept. Just have them get together and play. That doesn't happen, You're right. After band's been together for a while, they don't really do that anymore, you know. Yeah, there's one of the I can remember when I worked with Metallica, suggesting because they're very popular band, you know, very well known, well loved band, you can rely on the fact that people are going to listen to a Metallica record, and that goes into your process of people pay attention to us, and that's not always okay when you're starting, that's not the case. So one of the writing assignments was, imagine there was no such band as Metallica, and imagine you guys are going to enter a Battle of the Band's contest next week and you have to write music that's going to blow everybody away in the room and nobody knows who you are. Oh man, that's why you're Rick Rubin. That is brilliant. I'm taking notes because those are just brilliant, brilliant statements. It's so true though, it's very true. I've absolutely been in the studio with artists who've made multiple records and they go, you know, oh, let's do a groove like blah blah blah like our other record, and we need one of these for the record, because that's what we do that we always have. You know, the one, you know, acoustic song on the record. You know that's that's what you're saying. It's so brilliant valid because it really isn't. I mean, people get attracted to when they discover a band, and I guess getting a banded rediscover you know that that themselves too, is I don't know, that's so smart, so smart it's I could remember when I first said to Johnny Cash, like the goal would be to make the best album you've ever made, and he looked at me like I was insane, Like like that just seemed like, you know, here's someone who had made a lot of records over a long period of time, a lot of records that people didn't care about for probably twenty years. He'd been dropped from two labels, and the suggestion that we're going to make his best album ever just seemed like so foreign. But that's the job, Like, why are we doing it if we're not going to make the best one ever. I mean, those records are really what bowl a lot of people to Johnny Cash, So you know, you you captured discovery on those records, you know, discovery of the audience discovered him. But also there's discovery in that sound that you know, the thing we're talking about earlier with the White Mansions, with the cinema, the simple piano. That record was that record. Those records you did with him were just beautiful examples of simplicity in the best way because you knew. I'm speaking for you here, but I feel like you knew it was about his voice and his narrative and everything that around the companies that is just supporting that. It's so smart. But what'sn't I don't know that it was that thought out. It was more of a just part of the experiment of figuring out what worked. So it started with demos in my living room, and then we went into the studio with different players and tried different things, and then eventually the demos from the living room just sounded better. So being free enough to know that you could record it in your living room on the couch and if you like it, then that's the record, that's okay. So smart, it's so smart. Yeah, that stuff is absolutely brilliant. I think it redefined a lot, you know, and maybe at the time, and I'm just speculating, like country was radio only and I think those records kind of you know, I don't know if there was a viral was the word at the time, but they went viral and kind of beat the system in a lot of ways, and I thought, I think that's really cool. One of the best things that came from that was other grown up artists telling me, I feel like I can like I can try to make something good now, you know, like like they saw at that point in Johnny's career that he could be received well, whereas other people just sort of thought it can never happen again, and then they would, you know, raise their game. That's an interesting thing that people even think that way, you know. I think there's such value in making records for adults. You know. I think a lot of people just angle for whatever, you know, the big immediate gratification hit is. But man, adults are out there, and adults grew up at a time and you paid for music, and you go to shows, and you live a lifestyle around an artist. And I think records like that, the cash stuff you did, they're adult records, even though kids found them and discover them, they're just it's adult music. I think there's so much value to that, you know, And I hate to hate to think anybody who is a hero would think that way about their careers because you know, God, I would love to hear you know, one of my favorite bands getting back together. I'd love to hear the Zombies make a new record. Incredible. I'd be the first in line to buy it, you know what I mean? Absolutely, you know, and that guy can still saying unbelievably. Well, you know. Yeah, So I think there's probably a list of people that I would love to hear make new records. You know, reach out. I'm scared, man, Rod Argent, come on, Yeah, what a hell of a player, right, yeah, yeah, I'm I'm scared. I would never reach out to anybody, but but definitely I might have his email. If I can find his email, I'm sending it to you, and you're going to reach out, Okay, I'll tell I'll tell him. I'll put in the preference, Rick Rubbin said, and then maybe go answer my email back. You can blame me all you want. I want to hear the record that you make with Zone, Well, i'll call you man, you produce it with me. I would love to do a record with you one day. That's on my list of things to do. You know. I'm sure we will find a way to make that happen. All right, man, it'd be great, cool man. All right, well, thanks for everything. A pleasure speaking to you always. Man. Hopefully I'll see you one day in the in the in the future, when the world gets normal. Thanks to Dave Cobb for running through his career and inspiration for Rick. You can hear all of our favorite Dave Cobb produced tracks on a playlist at broken record podcast dot com, and be sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel at YouTube dot com slash broken record Podcast. There you can find extended cuts of our new and old episodes. Broken Record is produced with helpful Leah Rose, Jason Gambrel, Martin Gonzalez, Eric Sandler and his executive produced by Miolabel. Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries and if you like us, please remember to share, rate, and review our show on your podcast app. Our theme music is by Kenny Beats. I'm justin Richmond Bass