Beastie Boys and Spike Jonze

00:00:08 Speaker 1: Pushkin. It's been almost thirty five years since the Beastie Boys released the all time classic Licensed to Ill, and while some of the record's lyrics and antics sound is dated as the Porky's Movies, the album is still exceptional for Beastie Boys fans. Licensed to Ill is a glimpse into the lives of mca ad Rock, Mike d and their first djane producer, Rick Rubin. Their debut album as a pastiche of inside jokes in musical inspiration pulled from the classic rock and hip hop records they listened to and Rick's college dorm room. Rick recently connected with Mike d ad Rock and Spike Jones, who directed the New Beasties documentary, with Spike playing moderator. They teleport back to the early eighties and talk about their lives leading up to the release of License to Ill. It's all here, the inspiration him brass Monkey, Rick's infamous bubble Machine, and why DJ Double R bailed on the Beastie's first big break opening up from Madonna on her Like a Virgin tour in nineteen eighty five. This is broken record liner notes for the digital age. I'm justin Richmond, It's been about twenty years since Rick and Adam Horvitz have talked, and like most Zoom calls, their reunion gets off to a glitchy start. Mike d kicks things off. Oh who's Adam? Hi, what's up, sir? Rick? You look different. It's good to see you. You look the same. Yeah, No, that's a lot. That is an abomination. Mike, you look great. Don't start, Adam, don't start. Don't start. Rick. First of all, very nice to see. It's been a long long time. The last time I can remember a speaking was at one of the Tibetan freedom shows. You have a good memory. Then I don't remember that, and that had to be. But I mean, just time wise, putting a time stamp on it that was at least twenty years ago. It's unbelievable. It's surreal and it makes no sense. I mean, from my perspective, it makes no sense. I'll say, I haven't. I don't know why it worked out that we've not hung out in that amount of time. I'm just I've been so busy, you know. I can remember there was a little window of time that we started spending a little bit of time together in Los Angeles right when you came to Los Angeles after I was already there, and I can remember we had lunch at Hugos. God, damn, I don't remember anything. Oh yeah, I'm back in the Hugo's days. Michael, tryan to talk pasta ala mama, Yo, Michael, tryan to talk right now. We hung out a handful of times, and I remember seeing you and I think something something happened that. I don't know what happened at the party for the Blood Sugar Sex Magic album at them it was that album, That's what happened. Oh my god, I got daggers today coming with all cylinders. You guys, we can see, we can see, we can see. Wow, I'm in I'm in a mood today, dude. I think Adam for your along with your daggers, I think you need like you need a bank of sound effects, like you know, doub siren. No, no, no, I'm just in a mood. Let's get all the dagger out. Let's let's do let's what's what's the show? Rick? What happens on your show? What's what is it? I wouldn't call it a show, It's a It's usually a conversation. And I talked to different artists and they tell me stories about what they do. It's not unlike what happens in a recording session before the music gets made. That's typically what it's like. Just kind of and and especially if it's someone that I don't know learning who they are. Can I start with a question, which I know is but I'm just curious, so I want to ask it. Do you find that you more often find out things that you don't know about people that you do know when they're doing your show, Or do you find stuff about somebody you do know that's doing your show more in an unexpected way than somebody who you don't know at all who's doing your show where you have no background. In both cases, I learned a tremendous amount about the people I'm talking to. It's maybe more unusual with people that I know, because I get to talk about things that we don't normally talk about, Like I was thinking about even from the time that we knew each other back in the day, stuff we never talked about, Like I wanted to ask you guys about high school, Like I don't know what your experience at high school. I was just curious, Like, Wow, I was around. It was about the time you guys were just either just ending high school or just recently ending high school, and like, what was that like? We talked about that. Well, it's funny to think, actually, as you say that, because we spent so much time in your dorm room, I've never once pictured you in a class. I had no idea. I never even thought that you actually like attended class. Yeah, I didn't. I didn't attend many, right well and angels. Conversely, when we were in your dorm room, Rick, it's because we were not going to school, right, So it's like, yeah, but that's a good point. We never ever talked about we I never ever asked you about NYU ever. We just for our perspective, we just thought, well, this is cool, Like this guy lives in a dorm, he's going to college, and we're in high school. Yeah, so this like this is cool. Like you were like we thought you were going to be the cool like you turned you know, you were like the cool exclightly older guy. And then and then also mistakenly, I think we thought, wow, we're going to be hanging out in this dorm, which just means we're gonna beat like tons of girls and this is gonna be great, and we never talked to anybody. It was not but it was not like that. I mean for you to Mike Adam, what was your what was your school experience like on sixty third Street? Um? Well, I was. I went. I was supposed to go to Brooklyn Tech because I wanted to go to Stuyvesant, but I didn't get in, and so I went to Brooklyn Tech. And that was just too weird. That's a whole other story, but tell it, tell that story. What was weird about it? No, Brooklyn, Like I wanted to go to Stuyvesant because my best friend Arthur went there, and and I didn't get in. So I went to the other school you could go to. It was a technical school in Brooklyn, and it was massive and they had like metal detectors to get in and it was this huge technical school, and I, like I quickly realized after like the third day, like this is not for me. I don't know what the it's fright. It was just so overwhelming. Looking back, I wish I would have actually stayed and learned something technical actually could have helped me. But um so I just stopped going to school for a while, and then my dad got me into the school McBurney that it was a private school uptown, and I was there for a couple of years and then I stopped going, probably right around the time I met you. And not that the two things, not that two things are related. I'm just saying, what was the experience like of the school, Like what were the kids like the experience going to school? Because I was also I got into graffiti because we were into graffiti and so like that was the fun part about getting to school. It is just like being on the train and watching this, you know, just seeing who was on there and all that stuff in the school. The first school was just overwhelming. It was I can't even describe. It was just huge with thousands of kids. It was just a massive school. And then McBurney was like a preppy school. It was like a I don't know, I just seemed felt really out of place there. I felt kind of dirty, like my clothes are dirty. Well can you tell tell us the story, Adam, Why you never returned to McBurney. Oh? Yeah, So they had the school play was going to be Oliver, and so I did. They had auditions and I and I sang for the audition consider yourself at home, And I'd never really sang out loud before, and I was so bad that I just left the school that never went back. Incredible, But I will say I think you'd be a good artful artful dodger, artful dodgery. Yeah, good even now then now in between, I know, but it was singing. I can't sing, as you know, I can't sing, but I can, but it's just bad. Yeah, yeah, it's not. You're you know you're not rapping fourte, I get it. Adam. Did you get into graffiti before before hip hop music or were they simultaneous later later hip hop later? No, rap music first? Definitely? Oh okay, And do you remember what were the record stories that you guys hung out in? Did you guys hang on record stores? All? I knew you hung out at rat Cage, But was that like the first record store where you would like spend time, like the rat Cage you were at, like that that was the first record store where I, like, I felt comfortable talking to the person behind the counter. I would go to Bleaker Bob's all the time, like get like get off the train coming home from school and I go to Bleaker Bob's and I'd be terrified because Bob was always there. He yell at you know, yell at you, yell at me, and he had that huge Doberman pincher. She was scary and yeah, and they were always mean to me. Do you mean to everybody? You would always say random, weird jewish stuff. To me. I was just like a little kid. I just wanted to find out about what cool, what was new, what was cool? And I didn't know and they were so mean. But then then at school, I do remember going to nine nine Records. Yeah, that was where I hung out. I loved I loved ninety nine. My memory of the of those days were that the whole schedule of the day was based around going to the club. Did you guys feel that way as well? Or no? Oh? Yeah, like that was the that was really the primary thing every day was what club was going to be that night, if there was going to be a band if not, what DJ's to go to see and where to hang out. Well that's why the Rackage record store was was great because it was the first record store that kids hung out at for me, at least, you know what I mean. The other record stores that I used to go to, you know, kids wouldn't really hang out and Bleaker Bob's maybe, but that I didn't like it there, and so Rackage was like a meeting place, like a hangout place. And later your dorm room was going moving the needle forward a little like when we would hang out with you, when we go to your dorm room. I remember like every day like it was just kind of like go to your dorm room and then figure out what we were doing that night, and what we were doing that night always revolved around what club we were going to. I remember it always being around music. Even during the day. We would make mixtapes and sometimes sit out on the front the front of the dorm with boom Bach and listen to music, and it seemed like that's all that it was. That's all it was going on. All that seemed important was music and what we were going to eat and what we were going to listen to. And Mike was clearly focused on hooking up. Literally, we know I was interested. I wasn't very good in that arena, yeah, but yeah, but I was interested. Where did the original Volkswagen emblem come from? That was from my friend Laura Shilson it was on her wall. So wait, wait, I don't understand. But it wasn't on her wall on that chain, I don't remember. I think she just had it on the wall. She took it off a car, and for some reason I had it and then put it on a string, and then you took it. That's what I love about being a teenager, how much stuff just sort of goes from one kid to the next to the next. So I just I remember. I feel like I feel like you and Yell came over and it was like you gave it to me in a glorious presentation. Yeah, I like in my revisionist history. I feel like like some like it's almost like I feel like I was knighted, like you guys gave me bestowed. It was bestowed upon you. It was bestowed upon me, and then I could become Mike d I'm gonna dispute that, because think about it, what have I ever given you? I feel like I remember. I feel like I remember this happening though I feel like I was there for that yes to bestowing. But I do feel like and I don't know how it ended up being on the chain. I don't because I don't think it was on that chain somehow, like that chain was like sitting around and I don't remember that exactly, but I remember them. Once I started wearing that, it was kind of like then it was like I felt like everybody felt like, all right, I could I could beat Mike Tea. Now that was your Superman came. Yes, it was wow, Rick, When you first met these guys, what was like? What are can you think of a time where there sometimes when you were like, oh, I get them, I understand who they are, Like I understand who Yoki is or who Adam is, or who Mike is, Like, what was your sense of that? Well? I remember meeting Adam first through Dave Skilkin, and I remember Dave Skilkin was sort of the in my mind, the glue, Like he was a kid who was just super friendly and outgoing, which I don't think any of any of us were. I thought we met you and I met because of Nick Cooper. Could be wrong. I remember Nick Cooper, but I didn't remember that's how we met. I do, Rick, remember I remember Nick Cooper telling us about you and being like, yeah, there's this You got to meet him because we'd put cooking us out when I really needed a DJ. It's like, you gotta meet him. He's into like the stuff that you guys are into, and he's a d K and he's got all the equipment at According to Nick, remember I asked her out. He's like, he's got a bubble machine. That was his big line. That's true. I'll see that it's true. Rick is confirming the bubble machine. Well, it's true that I had I know I had access to a bubble machine access. Yes, I never know. We were writing the book, you were like, Rick, didn't no, I said the bubble machine, and You're like, I don't think so. And then you called Rick and Rick was like, yeah, I don't know about a bubble machine. I was like, you both are crazy because there was definitely a bubble There was a bubble machine. Why else would you want to meet someone exactly, Oh, they have a bubble machine. Okay, I'll go the funny. The funny thing is is that the bubble machine was something that just was at the dorm. It's like, uh, and when I heard that there was a bubble machine there, it's like, oh wow, we gotta have a party. We have a bubble machine now. So let's have a party, and that was where the Bubble Machine story began. Rick, I'm curious about, like just what your relationship with with each of the and was, like I can remember spending the most time with Adam, and it seemed like our friendship had mostly to do with music because that's what we just listened to music all the time, as I recall, and DJing in music, and then I think I met the other guys through the story of Cookie Puss after Cookie Puss was already out and then wanting a DJ, and then I came to a couple of shows in DJ the after the live set, as I recall, hard to remember first impressions. I remember seeing Mike before I met Mike at Nagrill one night, and I remember someone saying, oh, that that's one of the guys in the Beastie Boys, and I remember thinking it was just like it was just a weird I had a weird impression, not good or bad, just like he's a kid, feels like maybe my age, maybe a little younger, and he's in a band, and I remember he was I think, I think you may have been pretty inebriated that night, Mike, and I just remember thinking, Wow, this guy seems like a little like uh, seems like revd Up, you know, like revd Up, like tough, tough guy, Mike. You mean like he's just like bad boy. No, no, no, just like like enjoying himself. Like he was hitting it hard. Yeah, he goes hard in the paint. He went hard in the pain. He was going hard in the paint and it was impressive. Come on. I don't remember being inebriated that night, which doesn't mean that I wasn't. But what I do. What I do I do remember is two things. One is that was a really really important night for like us, for you, Rick is like a part of us, like because that was like where we really saw like hip hop came, like I talked about it in the book, where hip hop came downtown and all of a sudden, there's a treacherous three and then I think it was like next week was Afriga Bembada and Chazy Jay if it wasn't that night whatever, and it was like this, it was the most anything. But so my thing in terms of compensating, I think there's like, of course I was completely It's funny because I look I think about I think back on those NC Grill nights, and I think, wow, I was like so intimidated. I was so scared to be there, but I was loving every second of it. I was. There was no like club night. Maybe that was more influential or exciting to me, but but I was compensating from being intimidated. Probably but like because I was with like my group of like friends, I was probably acting like, oh yeah, I got this, but I definitely didn't have it at all. We'll be right back with the Beastie Boys and Spike Jones. After a quick break, we're back with more from the Beasties and Spike Jones. Rick, Well, what did you know about about the Beastie Boys at that point or what did you what was your impression to him? Had you ever heard of him? I don't think I knew anything. I think the first thing that I heard of the Beastie Boys was Cookie Posts, which I loved, and Imber. I was in San Francisco and I heard it at a she was a writer and A. Yeah. I think it might have been in Powers and I think I was stay staying at her like lofty place, and I think I heard it there. I don't know if she played it, or if I heard it on the radio in San Francisco when I was there, but I remember the connection of being at her house and hearing it, and I thought, wow, that's really cool because I was really really into hip hop at the time and felt like it was the first punk rock expansion towards hip hop. That's what it felt like. It was as much a punk I would say it was as much a punk rock record as it was anything else. Compared to hip hop records, it was punk rock, but compared to other punk rock records, it was more hip hop. And I remember thinking, wow, it's really cool and it and it had a and I remember laughing at it and laughing at it with it, you know, like laughing with it, thinking this is really funny, it's really good. And I remember I remember I remember Yauk and his motorcycle jacket and his long raincoat, and at one point I felt like him and Nick Cooper kind of had a similar raincoat vibe, you know, that raincoat vibe. Yeah. I don't remember how I met Nick Cooper, but I remember that to me, it felt like an anomaly. But in both cases, the raincoat vibe was not something you saw kids in New York wearing like it was it was a fashion statement to wear long, somewhat dressy raincoat. Yeah. Yeah, the raincoat vibe played played strong. When I first met Yak at this Bad Rains show at Botany Talkhouse and he was the only other kid my agea was there. I was like, Wow, this is the kids wearing like a trench coat and his combat boots and his like hair spike up, like this kid's really cool. Yuck. Actually kept that raincoat thing for that trench coat for a long time. Yeah, that trench coat vibe work. Yeah, I was gonna say. Also, remember Yeuk's obsession with the Bad Brains, like it felt like nothing else in the world existed other than the Bad Brains and kept that going for a long time too. Yeah. And I remember as a as a music fan seeing that sort of obsessive dedication and just thinking, wow, he's really again going hard, like he's going hard for this thing that he loves. Did you do you feel like you got the answers that you wanted? Yeah? Well, actually yeah, I'm always curious what I mean, when you're like eighteen, it's kind of hard, Like, how would you describe somebody you meet is kind of hard because it's more about like what common interests, like being having the same music interests. But did you have a sense during like just not knowing these guys then how you would describe each of them. I never really thought about it. I did feel likely felt that I felt like the place that I grew up in and the people I was around and where I grew up had a big impact on what I what I saw, what I knew, and I felt like their life experience was very different than mine, and it was just interesting. And in some ways, um, I thought it was a good thing, and in some ways I thought it was a bad thing from from my perspective. Yea, And what way? What way was it good? What way was it bad? You're talking about like a long n link kid versus a city kid kind of right, Yeah, I would say like they had better access than I had, because this is pre internet, Like now, everyone could find out anything they want about anything. Where I was, it was hard to find out anything about anything. I'd spend a lot of time in the library doing research, and even that research wasn't sort of cultural of the moment research. It was just what I could learn about things I was interested in and then spending a lot of time in record stores is my closest way of having any connection to culture, because where I lived there wasn't it didn't really exist. Although there was a club called there were a couple of nightclubs, and I did get to see like the Specials played in my hometown, which was remarkable. On the downside, I felt like maybe by living in the city, it might narrow the view of what was cool, Like I didn't know what was cool coming from where I came from, and the beauty of that was I could see and hear everything. There was very little peer pressure about about that where I lived, whereas I could see if you were in the city, there was stuff that was cool to like and not cool to like, and that could have a limiting effect. I mean, I guess, yeah, I heard led Zeppelin playing from like other kids at school, but because and kind of like to your point, I had already like decided, like I was so set on making my identity about being into stuff that those kids weren't into, I couldn't hear led Zeppelin. But then when we were in your dorm room and all of a sudden, you know, you put on. When the levee breaks, We're like, what's this? It's like the best thing ever or like ac DC or you know, what do you tell me? Mike? First tell me your memories of the dorm room. First off, it's the first college dorm I'd ever have been in period because you're in high school. I remember like just being intimidated, like going up to the desk and I guess it must have been like maybe mister Rick Rick Midilla at the desk and like having to get the pass or whatever to go up in the elevation or being you get the visitor pass because we're visiting you, and then I and then I remember being kind of confused because you had a roommate. But then you I think you had a roommate, right, I actually need you to kind of like explain this to us, but I think you had a roommate when we first went there. But you had this huge pa in the in the dorm room with like to sir Win Vega. You know, there's like there's like the biggest PA I've ever seen, like like somebody that I knew have. And then with the turntables and like the drum machine and everything and so so we loved it and we're impressed. So you don't all this equipment. But I was very confused. I was like, wait, how does Rick just like we were listening to music really loud in your dorm room, which and I loved it, But how were you? How is this guy able to do this and like not get kicked out of the dorm room and where's this roommate? Like, I was just a lot of questions. Yeah, yes, all all of that. Adam, what were you? What were your memories of the dorm room? You know, first of all, I was looking for a place to be basically, you know, sort of in life and literally like not going to school and needing somewhere to be. But also being around you know, older kids is cool when you're younger, you know, intimidating, but you know kind of cool. You're like, oh, you kind of think that you're one of the you know, older kids now, And it was just it was just cool, you know, especially going to your dorm room. You had just the records, the stuff, like, you know, two turntables, a drum machine. I was like, I loved it. I didn't have you know, I didn't have that stuff. I didn't have all those records, so it was great. I loved it. I mean yeah, like Ricky talk about access, and yes we did. We did have like throw it up in New York City, like when we talked about it in the book and the show whatever. deVie was a huge thing to us that we would just hear music all around us, or that we go to rack cage because we didn't want to find out what's happening that night and somebody say, oh, this thing's happening, and we would just go there because we had this access as teenagers. But but in your dorm room, it was just really exciting because they go. Adam said, we would, I remember, like I was my I was again like kind of confused, but so impressed when you you would come you would I think I felt like you would come deaf they delivered it to you. Or if you'd come back every week with like a create record from the record pool, yeah, and you remember that and we'd all go we'd go through them and put like basically everyone on to see what was good, what we like, what we didn't like, whatever. We listened to every twelve inch from that week, and that was such like an exciting thing like I didn't. I didn't have the like I had the money to get a single, like a rap single every once in a while, but I certainly would never think and never had the money to buy two copies of the same record. That just seems nuts. And so to go to your place and you had two copies of all these singles I loved, and we had two turns. It was just amazing. You know, it was nice to see you too. Obviously I'm in should I feel used? I never did get that Bubba machine access right, But then also I think an Adam and I've talked about this, like there was it was interesting. We felt like we were trying to just think back at like you know, when we first like we met you then started working with you. It's like you had especially like once you started started when you started producing U with us and like producing our records, it was like you had this confidence Rick that was like you know, it's all like every either any of us were like, Rick, what what record have you done? You know what I mean? Like and we're all whatever, We're all of it's seventeen eighteen years old. But it's like you had this confidence, like you knew how you wanted things to sound and looking back at it, like, I'm just so impressed honestly with that, Like, who it's got to be pretty rare. That's somebody like eighteen nineteen, twenty twenty one years old knows how they want, like what kind of what types of records they want to make? Yeah, it's it's weird. I I definitely knew. I had a clear vision of what I wanted to hear. Really as a fan, it wasn't. It was more, Um, I just loved it, and I knew how certain things made me feel, and I wanted more of the ones that made me feel good and less of the ones that didn't make me feel as good. And it was very pure. It was the same way, the same way that you connected to it. I just and I think maybe part of it might have been that I didn't have brothers or sisters. You guys both had siblings, and I think that changes it. It's like I spent most of my time until I started hanging out with you guys by myself, so it wasn't the only opinion that I was around was my own. You know, I didn't have an old older brother playing me music. I didn't I didn't have it all sort of had. I had to find it and see what resonated with me, And it had very little to do with the people around me, because like in my high school, nobody liked punk rock. I was the only person who like punk rock. So I had no sense of community at all. When I started listening to hip hop. At least there were a couple of kids in my high school who liked hip hop. Well, I'm going to change the subject for a sec because there is something that I wanted to know Rick. Yes, So, Spike, I don't know if you know this, but so we got the gig to open for Madonna on tour and Rick was the BC Boys DJ DJ double R. And we played a couple of shows and then he was gone. And he said that his doctor said he had an inner ear situation that he couldn't fly. And so I felt that that answer couldn't fly. And so now I'm asking you, Rick, did you just not want to do it or did you really have an ear problem? One hundred percent true. Both answers are flying with me. No, no no, no, of course, one hundred percent true. I went to the clinic on fourteenth there was a ear Nose and Throat Clinic on fourteen. I had never been there before, and I went there and they said, you have a terrible infection in your ear. You got to take these drugs and you cannot fly. If you fly, you'll probably lose your hearing in that ear. So that was and and I it's funny because I don't remember us talking about it, But also maybe part of the reason we didn't talk about it was because it was the tour was already ongoing, wasn't it. It was like we were yeah. So I feel like we did, Like, no, you don't. You flew out, Like you started the tour with us in like Seattle and Portland or something. Yeah, and then for some reason you would fly back to New York. But we were still on tour and you were you were supposed to meet us again, like in Los Angeles or something, and then instead of meeting us, you're like, you know, you had the ear infection. Yeah, now we're finding out was legit. But at the time we were like, ear infection, Well, I'll tell you everything. Feel free to ask me. Everything was always legit. It's like, I don't I would have loved to I loved being in the band. I loved doing the shows. It was it was completely thrilling. I loved it. I feel in some ways it's like the universe has this incredible power to affect my ear and make me stay in one place. And then it led to me focusing all my attention into production instead of being in a band, which could have been Like it could have been, that could have happened, and it just sort of worked out the way Maybe it was supposed to. I don't know. It feels like in retrospect, looking back, I would have never made that choice. While I'll say I didn't like traveling, I loved the experience of playing in the band. It was super fun. I thought the shows were great, Like I can remember I can remember us playing at Radio City and just how much the audience didn't like it, and I just thought it was incredibly punk rock and fun. I can remember Madison Square Garden and thinking it was it was just like, we're playing at Madison Square Garden. Can you believe this? We didn't even really, we didn't have an album out. It was unbelievable, Right, What were the shows like? Rick? It was? It was funny because we got to do the crazy Beastie Boys show and lean into the craziness of of this sort of heel persona, the bad guy persona, and in front of an audience where it was completely inappropriate, which made it even funnier. It's like, it's it's like if you're if you're if you're doing a punk rock show in front of a punk rock audience, there's this camaraderie there, and if you're doing a punk rock show in front of people who are not feeling it, it really gets punk rock. It's like it gets it gets elevated to this other thing, not for anybody but us. I mean I found it thrilling. Um. I know the audience hated it, but that was sort of part of the fun of it why they even more than hated it. And I think that's where it became thrilling to us. Was it like these twelve year old girls and maybe more importantly, their parents were genuinely horrified. They were they were repulsed. I mean, and I had to be right, I had to be there. We're a bunch of like little white kid is yelling at them on stage like you should be It's like, yeah, what is offensive? Yeah? And yeah, and for the record like Ricky, you know, you obviously had a big that was That was another thing like along with introducing us to to heavy metal led Zeppelin and Sabbath AC DC, you we also like the wrestling thing was never cool. That was uncool to us, right because we were these punk rock kids. It's still uncos uncol to everybody. But you were totally you wet like this like vocabulary in that world. And you immediately saw like this opportunity with the Madonna tour that like, oh no, it was like obvious to you, Like, no, guys, what do you mean, You're just gonna be It's just like wrestling, you know, you had So it's just pretty weird to think about. Most people don't think about, like if you have a band, it's going to open up for this somebody who was like a cultural icon who couldn't have been you couldn't have had a bigger pup on the planet at that moment, Madonna like the biggest star in the world. Most people just think like, how do you put a good show together? And you you saw it through this told the other lens it was like, no, it's obvious. It's like wrestling. Well, the other part of it was is no matter what we did, the audience was there to see Madonna and they weren't gonna like what we did regardless. So to really lean into that idea of well, where the we are the bad guys here? Where are the enemies? And to and to overcome that, to play it with all this bravado like you're here to see me and like it's just so ridiculous, so funny. Adam, do you remember the stuff you said? I remember you said some really come on you guys, most remember the best, the big the best and biggest line was I am the King of the Paramount, Like whatever theater we are at. That's how Adam would open up the show. I am the King. Um, you know Madison Square Garden. Do you, Adam, do you see the humor in this now? Really? Now? Of course I do. It's you're like you have this space like I didn't like it? No, no, no, no, we we also we also just did this shows a bunch of times in the movie and hope it's like it's fresh in here. Um, it was amazing, it's hilarious. It's a it's a it's a it's not a it's not a wild idea, but it's a it's a it is a great idea. You know, they're not gonna like us. They're certainly not gonna love us. They might possibly be like I didn't like that. But if we can guarantee that they remember us by saying I fucking hated that, and I will hate this and have this memory of hatred for a long long time, that's an interesting way to get your music through to somebody. Yeah, and it worked, It worked, and we but I remember the time like being convinced because it was like we look at it in this like feeboy way of like, yeah, we're gonna make a name for ourselves, and I did. We'll be back after a quick break. We're back with the rest of Rick's conversation with the Beastie Boys and Spike Johns. Hey, Rick, one thing I wanted to ask about just is a production on the first record we you know, we talked about it a little bit in the show, but obviously we have so much stuff, but that like, as as a fan, there's some bands that take a while to form, and then some bands that just come out fully formed, like in that record, and even just actually the way these guys described you with the confidence. It sounds like you kind of came out fully formed in some strange, you know, amazing way. What was like, What was the process of that first record. I can just remember that every time there was a good idea, we would make a new song. And I can remember the I remember two parts. I remember the lyric writing, which would be basically every night that we went out to the clubs. I remember trading lines only with the hope of making the other member laugh. Like I would always say stuff that I would think would try to make Adam laugh if we were hanging out, and if he laughed, I would write it down and just collecting lines, and we would both we would all do it back and forth and collect up these mountains of rhymes, not so much with a subject or a song in mine. Most of the time it was more just good lines. Then I can remember being in the studio, sometimes with Adam, sometimes myself, just making tracks because it's what I was always doing, and would just make tracks and just trying to make something interesting. And I don't think I could separate it in my head, but I knew the beats for LLL were different than the beats for the Beastie Boys, and the beats for the Best Boys were different than the beats for Run DMC, and it seemed clear to me, But I can't put a finger on what was different. But I knew as they were as we were making them, It's like, oh, this one, this one feels like lllbat and this one feels like this could be a really good Beast Boys record. Those like gated snare drums. I don't know. I can't say, I can't I can't put a finger on what it was. Do you remember sometimes making the record where it's like, oh, this is what like it sort of gave clarity to what the whole record is, like a decision, a beat, a lion. No. I remember I was in Electric Lady working on the Cults album Electric and I got a call from Mike and Mike said, Hey, how come our records not done yet? And do you remember this, Mike, No, not at all. This was amazing because I think this was like you guys were on tour. I assume I was. This must have been post ear infection. Well, no, we were probably on Raising Hell at that point, and I remember like a somewhat heated conversation where you were like dude. You didn't say do but like the equivalent of dude, But why is I mean, we're on tour. Why is our album not done? And I said, you know, it doesn't. And I remember, it's like it doesn't just happen, like it doesn't. It's not happening because I don't want it to happen. It. Each of these things arrives when it arrives. Do you know what I'm saying. It's like we didn't go into the studio every day with the idea of, Okay, we're gonna make something today. It was more like making beats in the dorm, listening to records, like coming up with what us what a track was gonna be, which sometimes would be six weeks or two months between songs. You know, it took. It was a long period of time. I can't remember from the time that we made whatever the first song was for that record till we made the last song. I'm guessing it was eighteen months. Could have been two years. It felt like a long time. And so also the other thing you guys talk about miss Mike and I'm talking about in the show is going away on tour and coming back and you'd finished the record and mixed it, and they were surprised that it was this big thing where they thought they were making a sort of more low fi punk rap record. Talking about that was that something you always saw, you always and knew that that was the sound? Not at all. In any case, there was no preconception or what something was supposed to sound like. It was just making it sound as good as it could sound for what it was, whatever it was. It's like SAME's true with LLL or SAME's true with Raising Hell. It wasn't like there was no thought to it. And the gated snare thing was like a it's interesting you bring it up, because it was a it was like a moment in time. And I think it was really what was the art of noise? That it was the thing that got everyone excited about this kind of drum sound, and that was probably like experimenting in that art of noisy way that led to That's my guess. If you had if you had Art of Noise to oven and man Parish twelve innch, which one would you put on first? Both? I liked them both. We can't put on both first. No, I wouldn't depends on It depends on the scenario depends on the scene. So you read a room, Yeah, it going off. Can you turn the fucking roosters down in the mixt please? Roosters are feeling it. The roosters are deep in the paint today. Oh God. I wanted to ask Mike and Adam about their memories of chun King also, oh man, Yeah, so that's a good question. I well, I feelings like I remember, I remember, I think I was. We were with you Rick and we were talking and Jaburnette was like, oh, you guys gotta work at this place. I don't. I don't think he said chun Kings. We I feel like we named chun King. He's just like, oh you got oh a seeking is called secret Society, then that's right. He's like, you got to work at the studio my friend's studio, Secret Society. But he was like talking about that I guess, like the Nive console or something that stuff that he as a kid, I didn't really understand, but he was all excited about it. So we were like, okay, bet, and then we go there and it's just kind of like, you know, we don't really know about studios, but it's just like kind of bummy yeah, you know, like it's not like nothing, there's nothing fancy about it. It seemed like every other week, like we'd go there one week and the next week like walls, like they always kept moving walls around. Yeah, do you remember that? Like, yeah, I do. I remember because it was kind of a loft space that the guy built out and he was just kind of moving stuff around. It was a weird place. I remember when we graffitied. We graffitied the wall behind the console, and at first, like I kind of remember, we got yelled at. And then it became the thing of the studios that everybody came there and did graffiti while they while they recorded. I remember the first time that we went there, psyched, We're gonna go to a recording student. I've been like the young and the users recorded at a nice recording studio. And this place was like a fucking dump. Yeah. It was fucking literally a dead fish in the fish tank and it was dark. It was like super dark, like everything was dark. I was like, why why is it? Why are we going to the scary like haunted house? Remember walking up it was like five flight walk up. It was dirt, dingy, dirty place. No, I remember the elevator because it was all graffiti and somebody wrote their name. It was all this graffiti, and someone wrote jose Ninas in the top corner, and every time we got in the elevator, we thought that was the funniest name. And it literally we laughed every time we were in that elevator because Ninus is a funny last name. I feel like we we laughed a lot at chum King. Yeah. Well, and on the way there and on the way out, like it was just it was I think part one of the key things about License was making it. It never felt like we were making an owl like it just felt like exactly what you just heard that. It was like that was just part of all right, wake up, go to your dorm room, listen to some records, you know, go to Cozy Super and Burger Than whatever club's going on that night, and said, if there's an idea studio. It wasn't like that, you know, the clod like Adam said, like, it's not like we were making an album for this amount of time. And actually it's funny. I think back at you talking about me calling you and making that phone call and asked her, like, what's up with the record. I kind of now I'm thinking back, and I remember we were on the Raising Hell tour and I remember Run being really excited Run and Russell getting me all excited, like like you know, like you got a call like what's taking so long with your album? Like you guys should be like Run because he'd heard like by that, you know, he was so excited about Hold It Now, which was Hold It Now was like one of those songs like we're talking about, like we were out of the club. I remember like we I remember you went in there and just played like around like a bunch of different like scratching things in off of records, and I think they even put down the verses. And then I remember you and Russell kind of like hearing it after we've already already done some stuff, and you specifically being really excited about it. I loved it, and you were like actually more excited even than we were, where you were like, yeah, this is it, Like this is this is what you guys need to be making. Yeah, it was mind blowing. I loved it. Oh you know, quest Love just told me a story the other day that I wonder if you guys know this in Philly. When Hold It Now came out as a single, the version that was released to radio was the a cappella, which we called the Acapulco. And so in Philly people thought that the song didn't have a beat or any music or anything. It was just vocals. Yeah, it was just it was just vocals. And he thought, Wow, this is the craziest record I ever heard. It's just this rhyming and he said. And it was really well liked in Philly, even though it was such such a crazy, you know, the first rap record not to have any music, and it was a hit. And then when the album came out and it had to beat, nobody liked it because they were used to the a cappella version, which they thought was just like the greatest thing they ever heard. We were talking to him and he was saying something. It just reminded me of words that we'd tried to force into like common you know speak. We'd pick random words and be like, oh, no, this is this is what people say. Now I can't Why am I blank? I'm trying to I'm like, I'm blanking on him so bad. But we picked like a few different words yeah, or phrases. It would be. Sometimes it be a phrase too, like you'd you'd hear someone say something at the club that was just normal to them and we would laugh, Like brass Monkey came from Jazzy J talking about what he liked to drink, and just like, yeah, it's like, what's funnier than brass monkey? Oh my god, brass monkey is That was a crazy night with Tila Rock. Tell me I don't remember it. So you were producing a record for a rapper named Tela Rock. Yes, and we were going to go to the studio with you because that we just that That's also what I like when you're young, you're just you just go with your friend wherever they're going. Like it's just funny to think about going with your friend to their job, Like, no, you can't come to my job. I'm working. What are you doing? And so I didn't think about it. The place was in Queens or Long Island or somewhere. It was like it was like we had to take a car. It was really far. Yeah, and me and Skilcomb were there and it was just nuts. It just seems so growing. There was like grown ups that we didn't know. I don't know Telea Rock, but it was like a real rap scene. It was just weird. And then Jazzy Jay passed around a bottle of brass Monkey and me and Skilcombe were like, this is fucking delicious. Yeah I didn't know that you guys. You guys actually drank it. Oh yeah. The whole night was crazy. And then we spraded in two separate cars and we're like in Long Island, We're like, where are we and getting white Castle? Anyway, it was a really it was a nice night. Yeah. I remember going. I remember taking cars to white castles. It was hard in Manhattan. It was hard to get white Castle. I know, probably for the best. But what do we say because rope a dope, like in late eighties rope, and I'm just I just remember one word. We'd say that shit is dope and they'd be like, that's dope. It's rope a dope. And then we were like we was like, oh, that's rope, and nobody like, no, not last rope. We said it did not last. That is so funny. It's too bad because it's kind of great. Nobody else was like, oh that's rope, what do you I forgot rope? Rope is great. We got to bring back rope. Rope is really fun. Me though it's explaining the joke, it's not that good. I feel like Flavor had a lot of the flavors normal waves speaking, had a lot of references that could work their way into songs. Like of everyone we hung out with, Flavor was a gold mine of phrases. I just wanted you to know. The last time I saw Flavor, I was in my car in New York stopped at a red light, and he got in my car and I was just like, what's like, someone's getting in my car and it's Flavor, And he's like, yo, let's up, take me to like thirty sixth Street, And so I drove him. I was like, all right, good to see you. Wow. It was fucking nuts. Did you guys go to at all to the studio when Public Enemy was recording? No, I just remember I remember going to their to the radio show of the Spectrum City Yeah show in Long Island and doing that, And I remember just like listening with you and on our own then when we were on to like listening to them demo for the song Public Enemy number one, like I mean on repeat, Like I don't think there's a single demo. There's gobe no demo we listened to that much. Maybe no single song that we listened to so incessantly it was. That was so mind blowingly good. It was incredible. I remember listening to it all the time. I'm trying to think with what were the other things that that were like that were like they really took over our lives for a period of time. Can you remember, oh, Eric Eric B for president? Yeah, well I wouldna say that school school D school school, egg PSK people and nothing but squares. Remember like how many times we really listen to that in your dorm room and everywhere else? Like yeah, when he especially that thing of like school like school D's whole intro on that thing like nah, no school school, what time is it? What was his DJ's name, code money, money, get your fish code code cod So good, oh man, such good records, so funny. I mean, I guess whatever we are of a certain age, so we that's but we will talk about often, like it is incredible how many great rap records were coming out, like nineteen eighty eight, nineteen eighty nine, like just mind blowingly good rap records. I'm trying to remember which were the what were the other ones that really like move the Needle for us Zucker MCS was everything obviously right? They read DMC were the I mean, they were the archetypes. They were like you know, I mean then Jay talks so much about performing and how to sort of put a rap show together, um and how you know, I think got along with you how to put a rap record together. Was there anything else that we had that wasn't out, like like with the Public Enemy TAPEBA is a demo? I remember biz Markie was out. I remember when we heard that first bis Marquis Twilit and talking about it with DMC and Jay and being really excited about it. You had a demo for Slick Rick Children's Story Rick, Oh remember love that right? Right? Well? Because that was another thing. I mean, Lotti Dotti the show. We must have. We must listened to Lotti Dotti the show again, unquantifiable amounts of times. Do you remember the story of let me where letting Me clear my throat came from? I have a vague I have a memory, but I don't know if it's accurate. No, tell me, I don't My memory. Was that on LLL's demo tape that you found in the box of demo tapes that came to the dorm. Before he started rhyming, he said, and let me clear my throat, And I remember that we for whatever reason, it was the funniest thing we ever heard. It made I mean it was, It wasn't there was nothing funny about it, but somehow the idea that that was the first thing said before the the song starts. I know, it's so easy to take that out now, do you know? It's so it's so easy, But back then you couldn't. You just you didn't know how to take stuff out, and just whatever you record it was on there. Yeah, yeah, it was. It was. It was nothing. But for some reason, I remember we latched onto It's like, this is just the funniest thing we've ever heard. We just latched onto it. And I can't remember how it ended up getting into the song. I'm sure you were like, wait, let you should say let you should scream that really angrily. It's funny. It's so dumb. But again, it's the beauty of It's in such a different context too, though, on this on our song as opposed to his demo tape. Yeah, well that's the beauty of the montage of hip hop. That's how like recontextualizing things that you find in the world. Yeah. Yeah, any other memories of dance eteria. I feel like that was sort of the place that I remember we went to the most. So many I mean so much, so many. Um, all right, where were sorry? I mean really that Yeah, that was that was Dollie were the first places we would talk to girls I thought you were you were just claiming junior high school status, so you're doing all kinds of things, But um, all right, dance there, I would say, like me, just like hearing you didn't know. They were like the songs that you would hear every every night, like uh uh app shoot you Down? Or or New Order, um confusion you'd hear like every single night, or didn't didn't do medium, medium medium medium. My favorite top three favorite things of dance interia was being on that dance floor room, second floor, just in the corner by the stairs. Would always be hanging out, the music would be playing, people be dancing, and there was some guy in the middle of the crowd would be like, wheren't that body And it wasn't just like once, it was like every night. Yeah, memories of the Roxy. I remember the Rocks. I remember two things. I remember Africa Bambada playing Uh, Tony Basil, You're oh, Mickey, You're so fine at the Roxy. So like you know, I'm there like a white kid at the Rosy is like the most fee boy place ever. And here's Africa Bombada, one of the most important hip hop DJs ever, and he's playing Tony Basil like you know not there's nothing that I thought of rap like music like that when I associated with Tony Basil, and I was just like, wow, that's incredibly he could make Tony Basil old Nicky, you're so fine. Work in the Roxy was a credible that And then I just remember being scared to go to the bathroom at the Roxy. Roxy was just it was just like dudes like selling coke and getting high and like shit was scary. I just felt like I was gonna get robbed in the bathroom. Yeah, well that that I remember because I went to Roxy when I was a kid because it was a roller skating place and so I don't I don't know how to rollerskape, but like it's like a thing you go and hang out at the roller skating place. And so then later A few years later, Roxy was a thing where we would go to, you know, the disco, and I remember when we were there. I don't know it was the first time we're there. But then like fucking shots rang out and someone had a gun and was shooting and people running. I was like, this is not the same thing from when I was eleven, twelve, you know whatever, it's It was a place you put a bunch of teenage dudes in the same place and weird shit's going to happen. Why is that it is the case? But why teenage dudes are stupid? I don't know what to say. Yeah, I'm thinking about that the Hey Mickey reference that Bambody used and that probably led that hearing that there probably was a step in why the song It's Tricky got made. Oh there you're gonna say world destruction and for him it's like the same beat, yeah, because world destruction is like the same beat. Yeah. Yeah, I just I just remember It's Tricky being like feeling. There were certain vibes that you would feel at a hip hop club that stood out that were different than the others. It's like, hmmm, how do you incorporate that feel? Because that definitely feels good, like we're in the club, this feels great. That's now part of the language. Like that felt like, okay, that's part of the language. In hip hop. It'd be if you were in a band and somebody in a band did a waltz beat instead of a four four beat, and you'd say, oh, that's a new part of the vocabulary. You can write a song with a waltz beat. Not matter at a waltz beat. I got, you know, I got tons of songs with walt speeds. Oh wait. One thing Rick I did want to say is you were talking about how I don't even know how to explain it to people, or maybe it's not even worth trying to explain, but like we were talking about opening for Madonna, but that it's it's also it's very interesting. We look obviously we've we've changed a lot through the years, but it's it's it's interesting to me because people know I feel like relate to us or a lot of people know us just from like license to old Beastie Boys, and then there's a lot of people that grew up with us through a lot of stuff whatever, but a lot of people know it's just like it's in that Increa Nation license at all time. And I think it's interesting with you. You were like such a big part of like when we were opening up from a data and this like this whole idea like persona. But then people actually know you now, like from your persona now, not from like like how you would talk then. And I don't even know how to explain when I try to explain to people how you would talk in sort of like when you're excited about, like for wrestling, and how you would do that, I don't even know how to capture it or explain it. Yeah, it's definitely a ramped up character inspired by like Roddy Piper would be one of the key get Rick Flair, the guys who would who you'd want to see lose and who would often find a way to win through cheating. But they were the funniest. They always like the bad guys in wrestling. The bad guys have the best lines. So they were the most charismatic and funniest characters. So I put on that air that has to do with Youth, Michael Youth, don't give a fuck. Thank you for doing this. Great to see you, Adam. I'd miss you. I love you and I look forward to continuing U B bridging the years that we've missed. Love it too, Rick. Nice to talk to you, Thank your rigors. Great to see you, Spike a pleasure. I miss you. I miss you. Better see you later you guys by right. Thanks to Mike, Adam and Spike for taking the time to catch up with Rick. You can hear all our favorite Beastie Boys songs plus the other songs mentioned in this episode, but heading to Broken Record podcast dot com and be sure to check out our YouTube channel where we can find some great bonus material from past episodes. You can subscribe at YouTube dot com slash broken Record Podcast. Broken Record is produced with help from Jason Gambrel, Mio Lobelle, Leo Rose, and Martin Gonzalez for Pushkin Industries. Theme music is by Kenny Beats. I'm justin Richmond. Thanks for listening.