Andrew Watt: Producer on the Rise

00:00:08 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Just a quick note here, you can listen to all of the music mentioned in this episode on our playlist, which you can find a link to in the show notes for licensing reasons, each time a song is referenced in this episode, you'll hear this sound effect all right. Enjoy the episode. It's hard to believe Andrew Watt is only thirty years old. Just consider the artists he's worked with over the last five years. Ozzy Osbourne, Miley Cyrus, Sam Smith, Justin Bieber. He's quietly become one of the biggest producers in the industry, leading to a nomination of the upcoming Grammys for Producer of the Year. But before Watt started his production journey five years ago, he was a songwriter and guitar player. This song, Ghost in My Head is from a twenty fifteen EP he released, and it perfectly captures why he's been able to straddle the usually firm line between hard rock and pop music. It's something he's helped Post Malone do over the last few years, and also did from Miley Cyrus on her new album Plastic Hearts. In this episode, Andrew Watt talks to Rick Rubin about getting to start in music and turning with the roots, his journey did becoming a top tier music producer, and about a frightening experience with COVID he had in the early days of the pandemic. This is broken record liner notes for the digital age. I'm justin Richmond. Here's Rick Rubin's conversation with Andrew Watt. Let's start with COVID. When did you realize you had it? I was working with an artist, and literally, canceling is not something that I do ever, because people's time, as you know, right, that's the most important thing. Showing up somewhere and being there, especially for someone that wants to create with you, It's such a blessing to be able to do in the beginning. So I'm not a canceller. And I just kind of woke up and I was feeling so just fluey and not good where I was just like, if I go to the studio, I'm gonna maybe get people sick. So let me just figure out what's happening. This is March fifth, and whenever I would get sick before, which thankfully was not that much, you start feeling like kind of dream like where you're like, okay, something's in me. That's kind of making me not like spaced out totally. I can't connect thoughts the right way and everything. So I had a doctor come and see me. Did a flu test, You're negative? And I'm like, in March were people talking about coronavirus? Yet just like it's happening in the world, there's no cases in lady. You didn't know anyone who had it? Nope. But I said to this doctor that was there, I was like, do I have corona? Everyone's having it. I have the symptoms. I'm like, my throat's hurting me, I have dry cough and all this stuff. It's like, there's no way you have corona. It's not here in America. Yet they're containing it's containing. It's impossible. You have the flu. Do a flu test negative, do another one negative, Take this uh Tama flu, Take these steroids for the swelling, and and you know, take advil all And so I do everything he says, and taking it and taking it. I'm not getting better. So I'm like, dude, I have corona. How long How long was it before the next step? Five days? Right, I'm so five days You're doing everything. The doctor said, yes, bad flu, taking it not getting better, getting better, getting worse, or staying the same. Um, just like not getting better. Whereas usually like a thing would be whatever, so we passed it. Normally would pass quickly. This day like seven days in around like March twelve, where I'm like, all right, this Tama flu worked and I'm kind of like I feel that I'm coming on the other side, right, So call everyone, all right, I'm ready to go back to work. I'm blah blah. But people are talking about Corona. In this time. I find out that Lucy and Grange is like really sick, right, and there's this party that happened. You heard about this the Palm Springs for his birthday, and a couple of people from London were there and they're getting sick. So I'm like, okay, maybe I got it. And then I'm better. Two days after, I wake up in the middle of the night and I'm like hallucinating, you know. I'm like, I feel like death. I can't breathe this. I'm like, whoa, what's happening? So I called this is worse than it was, Yeah, worse than it was. And I call this doctor. I'm like this guy was seeing I'm like I gotta get to this blah blah, comes over, gives me another flud Testa's like, you don't have corona, people don't have it. You're like, over and over, take the advill I finally, you know, friend of mine got me a different doctor who was like a really you know, I guess not that this other doctor wasn't a good doctor trying to do his best, but no one knows anything at this point, right, So he gets me this other doctor and he's like, you can't breathe. You're you know, oxygen's lower. We're going to the hospital. So go to the hospital. Which hospital to go to? I went to UCLA. I'm sitting there. I literally can't breathe. It's like a weird feeling. I'm twenty nine years old and terrible scary, and I don't know what's going on. But I'm like, have you ever been in the hospital before. I had been in the hospital before, but only for like simple things, never like you know, you ever stay in the hospital before, No pendix out, that kind of stuff, you know, tonsils, hernia, so um, you know, I'm there And finally they're like they're giving me a flu test. I'm negative. I'm like, can you test me for corona? This other great nice doctor comes with me to the hospital. He's like there, he's like, test this guy for corona. No one can get tests, no one can do anything. So I'm there at the hospital. Finally they take me to get a chest x ray. They won't test me for anything. Chest X ray. My chest X ray comes back with pneumonia. Right, they still will not test me for corona. Now is everyone around you, all the doctors, everything, We're in masks and has matsuits like crazy, but they won't test you. Even though they will not test me. No matter what I'm doing, I'm texting my manager help me. I need to get tested. I don't feel right like I'm at this point where I'm like desperate. I never had that feeling before of feeling desperate. You know, I'm lucky, I'm blessed. I make music. I can't believe it's my job to make music and I can kind of do what I want. I'm desperate sitting here in this hospital and they will not test me even though they know I have pneumonia. So they're like, sorry, CDC rules, we can't do it. We're only testing old people because they're gonna die. You're young, You're not gonna die even if you have it. You just need to go home. I wait hours and hours and hours for this doctor to come in, and that's what they tell me. Right. So the other doctor that's there is just like with me. He's like, you know what, I'm gonna go to my office right now. I'm gonna get a flu test. I'm going to test you for this thing, and I'm going to write on the thing this person I'm almost positive he has corona. I'm gonna send it to Quest Diagnostics and I'm going to see what's going on. So he too give me a flu test, but wrote I think this person is corona, left it on their doorstep, and they tested it for corona. That's how you found out, and that's how I found out I was positive for corona. Wow. And you know, all the people trying to help me and the people there, but it's not their fault. They're following regulations by the government. That's who's fault. We all know who I You know, I could say it was fault. It is to me, and you know they're just not handling it the right way. And it's so early. Also, now that you have this, no one really knows what to do if you do have it anyway, there's no there's no treatments, no one knows nothing. So all we can do is read and do this stuff. And so I was in bed for thirty five days. Wow, how long we in the hospital for. Let me go. They're like, they didn't even I didn't even get my results that night. They're like, go home if you have it, just don't see anyone. Like they wouldn't test me, did nothing for me. They're like, you have pneumonia. You have pneumonia, just rest yea and go home. So you stay in bed for you stay home for thirty five days. I'm home in bed and I'm just feeling awful, hallucinating. What type of therapeutics are you doing? I had a fever for sixteen days, which was you go crazy? How high did it go? Up? One oh three was the worst, and then it was kind of down. Um, and you know, it's really hard for me. I've played guitar, you're not so how we met. I came and played guitar here. We'll talk about that after. But I played guitar every day for my whole life, and I'm suddenly not wanting to play guitar because it's I don't want to play in this negative place, in this mindset. And then, you know, I think just after that and dealing with post COVID stuff was tricky, but I got back and I think I'm making the best music in my life now. So and since you've recovered, have you had any bad days or has it been pretty consistently good. I haven't had knock on wood a bad day in a really long time. But you know, a couple of months ago, if I was doing kind of strenuous exercise or really pushing myself, I would find myself kind of in like a mental fog. And that was hard. But what it made me do was, you know, and I'm sure I know from talking to you before, but I was working. I was the producer that was working twenty four hours a day, working the day with someone working the night with someone else, my studios, in my house, working on stuff. It's made me change my hours and work kind of more in a in a more of a scheduled thing. If creativity strikes at a different time, then I'll deal with that or use it as a decision. But it's not a necessity, and so doing that has kind of made me take better care of yourself, take better care of myself. And if and if I want to exercise, I'll do it super early in the morning where it doesn't affect my day and I'm not going one thing into the other or at nighttime, and just kind of finding different ways. I'm not in the gym pounding weights, but I never really liked doing that anyway, you know, surfing, spending time on the water, paddling, doing yoga, walkding, doing really long walk stuff like that. It's all I had to adjust like that, and doing those adjustments was not really something that affect were in New York did you grow up? I grew up in Great Nack, originally in Long Island, and then funny, I went to NYU and lived in Weinstein dorms, just like someone else I know a Long Island that went to New York in New York City to try and make music. I didn't want to go to college. I wanted to play gigs and play and in bars. But like I got through with my parents of like, okay, if you get I got into NYU, so you gotta go went to Weinstein dorms, was making music and out of my dorm room until I dropped out. And how was that? What was your first, um professional experience in music? My first when I like really really kind of professional thing besides just making records on my own at my house and everything was. I got to NYU and the roots had just started there, Jimmy Fallon thing and they were doing these amazing jams at the high Line Ballroom in New York because they were there and they were, you know, wanted to do it. And I remember I waited outside after the show for a long time to talk to quest Love. I wanted to talk to him. I was so he's not only one of the costs, but how knowledgeable is that guy? Just believable on everything? And I was a big you know, I loved his website, Okay player that reviewed music. I would find a lot of music on there is it just always searching and he's such an audio file you know. So anyway, so I talked to him and I was like, hey, man, I want a jam. I want to jam with you guys. Because I would go to jams all the time. I would go to blues jams and bring my guitar and that's really how I like, I learned to play with other people as I had bands, but they my band sucked, do you know what I mean? Like I went to these jams at the cutting Room and the Bitter End and the bottom Line and all these places and would just be there with my guitar and I'd get up and we'd play little wing for no one practiced with each other before or superstition, and I'd to learn how to catch horn lines and kind of that was like really important to me. I would steal a car and drive out to Manhattan from Great Neck and do that all the time. So I asked quest of if I could jam with him, and he was like, yeah, I talked to this girl she does the jams. He was just kind of like really nice and cool. So I got this woman's number. Their name was Ginny, and I called her probably a thousand times and of seventeen at this time, and emailed her and she would not answer me. So I was like, Okay, the jam, it's Thursday. It's next Thursday. And I didn't hear am I jamming? Am I not? So I bring my guitar and I go at sound check time. I'm like I'm gonna just sneak into this place and go because quest Love will see me. And he said, oh yeah, you can jam. And I had a big heart, you know, I follow my heart. Of course he's gonna let me do that, right, So I sneak in. I might come here for the gig I'm playing tonight, Sir. Suddenly come right, and people are coming at all and quest Love's not there, but that woman Ginny is there and she sees me and she's just her face goes white, right, and so they're like, give me a wrist band. And I'm there and I'm waiting by the side of the stage with guitar. All these people come. I see Bilal play for the first time and he does like a whole lot of love it. I didn't even know who Bilal was, and then you know, I'm like, oh my god, this guy's incredible, and watching Captain Kirk play guitar, who's amazing musician. And I'm sitting there and I don't get asked the jam obviously, but I see this woman Jinny freaking out the whole time. She can't handle what's going on with the amount of people that are there and the guys need drinks and want to smoke weed, and she's just too much for her to handle. And so my brain, I'm in the music business program at NYU, my brain goes, I need an internship. Maybe this could be my internship. So I was like, hey, you know, I know I didn't get the jam and stuff like that, but like you seem like you need an intern, like you're you have too much going on. She was like, I actually do need an intern. Here send your resume. So send my resume. I get a whole thing, and I get the job of being this girl's intern and working at Okay Player during the week and helping with the jam every week. So I'm backstage every time. I bring my guitar every single time, and I never get asked to play, and I'm annoying little kid. But I learned how to roll blunt from Black Thought and rolling his blunts before it was smoking, get drinks for people, and I'm around all these amazing musicians, like the best musicians, and and you know, I get to know James Poyser really well, and it gets you know, Black Thought and Kirk and Quest Love and all the people around in their crew, and you know, guys from the Fuji's Come and Erica Bad Dude Come, and and and Balal and all those people, and I'm and I'm just meeting all these people, and I'm open to a different kind of music than I was listening to them, the rock and roll that I was raised on. And this one night happens where um Kirk, his father was really sick and couldn't make the gig, and so quest looks like, all right, you got your guitar, and I didn't have my guitar that so I run back to at Weinstein Dorms, get my guitar, come back and I got to play that night, and I did great. It was one of those moments where I did great. You know, I understood the space and I had been watching how they did their stuff every night and did great. And then they let me jam a bum there and would let me play a bunch of times, and I met amazing artists and got kind of my first gigs playing for artists, not doing my own thing from there, and that's kind of how it started. What was your first studio gig? My first studio gig, I was making my own records, and then the first time I produced I was working with this kid, Jared Evan. He was signed to Interscope, and I was playing guitar for him kind of throw all that stuff, and then he would always bring me around with him and want me to play guitar. And his guy that was producing him was Jimmy Douglas, one of the greats, and he kind of taught me how to play guitar and the studio and double track myself and get parts and work through stuff. And I would play for a long time and then he chopped parts out so that I kind of cut my teeth that way and then used it to make my own records. And then as I was going on tour with people, I was on tour with an artist named Cody Simpson and Justin and then they wanted me to make their records and I just would kind of did that and moved out to LA and made that one album with Glenn and in Nashville on tape, which was a great experience too. I think everyone should make an album on tape at some point, just wants to see what that process is like. It's a fuck ton harder and doesn't really make that much of a difference for everyone that says it does. It really doesn't. But you know, drums sound great on tape, and I'm so happy I had the experience. Now we have all the plugins that make it sound like tape anyway, So why are you going to do that to yourself? Yeah, And I came out here and I had this song that I wrote with a friend of mine named Ali tem Posey, who's still my number one collaborator until today. We're working together on Monday again. We've been working together for nine years NonStop, never had an argument. And we wrote the song called let Me Love You, which was on a guitar and it was a folk song, and it kind of got passed around the industry in that way. Everyone we've heard this song. And I played it for Justin because he was a good friend of mine and he really wanted the song, and then everyone else somehow started cutting the song. I didn't understand how people were cutting my song without asking me or talking to me. It felt wrong. It was like, and I told Justin he could do the song already. So I kind of had to like get involved with that part of the industry, which I never did before. I'd start talking to these record label guys and these managers and these different people and kind of be like no, I learned the power of no, kind of the first time, which you know you have to say and be like, hey, no, this is not actually happening. I don't care what you want to pay or what like. I promised this song to someone else and so through a long story, justin ended up singing the song. And that was my first like big hit song and it was such a cool experience to I didn't know that it was going to be that. I just everyone wanted the song for a reason and it was amazing. So like the first time I went to one of his shows and I saw him play that song and then everyone in the crowd was singing, held the mic out and it was words I wrote about, like hurt and pain I had, but to them it was the happiest thing ever. And it was just like in a surreal, amazing experience. And I think it's when you see that happened, you want to do that again and again and again. And what was the next one? The next one after that was a Selena Gomez song that she did with Kigo, which was another song that was on the guitar. It's called it ain't me. Did you write it for her? You just wrote it and then she heard it. I just wrote it and played it for her because we were friendly, and she loved it and cut it kind of instantly. So many of my songs that you know became big songs have these insane long stories of me flying to Japan for twenty four hours and doing all this stuff that I had to do to get the record across the finish line, which I'm sure you have crazy getting the Getting the song sometimes is the easiest part, and getting the artist to actually do the song is really hard. Sometimes it doesn't make sense, but it is. That was the easiest song I ever had, that one. She sang the song and made her tweaks to it, and she sounded amazing on it, and I did the production with I Go, and it kind of just came out two months later, and so that one was was was awesome. We'll be right back with more from Andrew Watt after the break. We're back with more from Andrew Watt and Rick Rubin talking about their mutual friend drummer of the Red Hot Chili Peppers, Chad Smith. What was the first session you ever played on with Chad Chad came to play on I was when I was signed to Republic Records as a rock artist and kind of doing that. He came and played on one of my a couple of my songs. I had met him. I was in that band with Glenn Hughes and Jason Bonham back in the day, and I met Chad through that and we just kind of became tight. And as you know, Chad loves music more than literally anything in the world. And we'll actually play on anything and it'll be great, and it will be amazing and in any style. And it's so funny. Chad's kid is just permanently set up at my house, old gretch kid he has, and he's like the house drummer. I mean, he plays on everything that we do. So we did that and we just kind of became really close. And that Blood Sugar album was like my DNA as a musician when I was learning how to play all these different instruments and the kids that I was playing with didn't want to play as much as to me, So I just learned everyone's instrument and I learned how to play that in that album kind of on every instrument. So first time I sat down to play with Chad. My instincts were kind of similar to his because that's where my DNA was kind of playing. And even now when when we're making an Ausie album or something, he does a fill and I'm playing a lick, it's a same. It's weird we have. We have really similar instincts, which is so cool. He told me another amazing story. I'm I'm breaking him out because kind of I want to know your answers to this kind of stuff. You know, we're talking I think like a year and a half ago, just about demos of things, and I don't remember how exactly it came up, but he played me the demo of Californiacation and the music under that song is completely different music. It's like, couldn't be anymore any more different, But the top line is the same, exactly the same, the same words, the same spacing, the same amount of verse to the chorus line. And he was like, you know, this music was not right. It wasn't you know, not that it wasn't that it was good or bad. It just wasn't right and it wasn't working. But you pushed them really hard to like go and make different music for this amazing top line and then it's like, I think it's one of their biggest songs. How does that process work for you? I honestly don't remember that happening. I believe it did happen, but I don't think that it was my idea. I have a feeling as I remember it, and again I don't remember. Brit Well, we had the song and then John came in one day and he said, I think I have a different way to play the song that's better because the way it typically works is the band works on music and then Anthony gets inspired by the music he hears, and then he writes the melody and then the words, and he had gone through that phase, wrote the melody in the words to the music the existing music, and then John heard the melody in the words and said, hmm, I think there's better music, and then he as I remember it, John just had the idea to present a different version and we all liked it better. Yeah. I mean, I think that's the only time that particular thing happened with them. It's amazing to not to a lot of people would just be like, all right, this one's not working. Like an A becomes a C and just just leave it, throw it. How many great songs are there that you have, you know, like that, but to like work something to the bone or repurpose it like that, and then it's becomes the comes the album. Always we would always try to consider every possibility to make every song as good as it could be. That takes patience. Absolutely, That's the whole job really is sitting and waiting and going through and not making trying options, never thinking you know how it's supposed to go. If you think you know how it's supposed to go, it'll only be as good as you can imagine, Whereas when you watch it happen, you're surprised and blown away by how much better it can be than what you originally imagine. Yeah, and people get frustrated in that process sometimes, and that's a balancing act as well. Right, somebody was like, no, I like it like someone that's unwilling, and I that one of the great Rick advice sessions I had with you was I had an artist that was unwilling to do what I really really felt strongly was like amazing, And you told me you can push so far, but at the end of the day, you got to let the artist that's earned their right make the decision, you know, So get to that crossroad sometimes where if they didn't want to change that song, it would have just been what it but what it was. Yeah, But hopefully then there's a situation where someone does listen and does accept the change and it's positive. Yeah, and they're also can't None of us are rite all the time either, totally. You know, it's like we don't know. We think, we have our opinion, we share our opinion, and then we see you know, I passed on working with Guns n' Roses, I passed on working with Jane's Addiction. You know, I passed on working with a lot of people because I just when I saw it, I didn't hear it at first. Yeah, And maybe that's what's supposed to happen, because had I made Appetite for Destruction, it might have been a very different album, and maybe it wouldn't have been as good, you know, maybe it wouldn't have been what it needed to be. So who knows, you know, who knows. There's so much about the process that's unknown, and we just have to ride it and be open to the possibility of it being as good as it could be, and would I try to sing jest with the artist I work with is if we don't both love it at the end, then it's not as good as it could be. So in both cases, so if you feel strongly about it and the artist doesn't like it, that means it's not there yet. And if they like a different version and you don't like it yet, it's still not done. It means there's you haven't really cracked the code. Because when you really cracked the code, it's obvious to everyone. You couldn't imagine it any other way. Yeah, this is it, this is the record. Yeah. So it's just the patience of going through that process. It's amazing. Yeah. I had an experience the other day. I won't mention the name of the artist, but with a producer and an artist and they asked my opinion. I gave my opinion, and the producer got really defensive and it's like, oh, you know, I really believe in this direction that we're going. It's like, okay, it's like it's fine. I'm just telling you how it strikes me. And at least experiment with the suggestion and see if anything good comes from it. You never know. Sometimes does sometimes doesn't. Yeah, all you can do is share your taste. Yeah, it's it's all taste, and there's no right or wrong taste. You know, everyone has their own. How do you like working with other producers? Like being involved? Kind of like that. It's fine. I'm not attached to anything, so I can. I'm very comfortable sharing what I like and what I don't. Um. I'll give any suggestions of possible solutions, but I'm also open to hearing any possible solutions and sharing what I think works best. UM. A lot of people also, you know, you have you have a myth behind you, which is so cool and awesome. Nothing cooler than that. UM. And you know, I just wanted to share my experience. I got to work with you once in the studio and we were you were making a Justin Bieber album, UM, which that stuff was killing and I'd love to hear it one day if it's still this anywhere on a drive somewhere incredible And I remember, you know, So I got a phone call from Justin um And who who i'd been playing with him was on tour with for a while, and he was just like, hey, Andy, what are you doing? Can you come down to the studio. I'm making this I'm making this album. I want you to play guitar. And I was like, yeah, of course, you know that's awesome. Like where are you doing And he's like, oh, I'm making it with Rick Rubin at Changer Law and I was like, what you know. I just got in the uber came all the way out. I was like, let's go, let's go, let's go, and I and I got to I went into that room that we're looking at right there, and um, Chris Dave was on drums, who's no one better than him? And these other a bunch of other amazing musicians, great bass player, great keyboard player. Um, and I was the worst musician in the room by far, which you know, it's my first time in front of you. Justin's put went out on alone. He's like, let me bring my guy. You know, I don't know you. I know there was another guitar player on the session. I don't know what happened to him, But for whatever reason, I got brought out there and I got thrown into the fire. And you had two choices. You either you know, suck and can't do the job, where you try and rise and that was like such a challenge as a musician for me in the best way, and you did the coolest thing, which I do constantly as I'm making music now. Is kind of like I think you kind of I think if I look back on it, the reason why I was there is because, like I got like Todd how to produce fire. You in that moment where you were playing us all this amazing music, You're almost like djaying for us. You're playing us because I remember you wanted to from what I remember, make stuff with Justin. That was like he kept saying, I want to make my thriller. I want to make my thriller, right, Like that's what he was saying in that time. And so you're playing us all this amazing music, you know, Hall of Notes and Cheek and other Nile produce stuff and some Michael stuff and all different, all different things, and you told us as a band, You're like, okay, learn this, play along to this. So we had like about five or ten minutes to learn what we're hearing. And I'm like the keyboard players right there, I'm like, what's the course, what's the course? What's the course? Like I'm just like I'm holding on but like trying to fit in. And we learned the song and then you said, okay, now played it in a different key. So now we start playing in a different key. And then you say, okay, now play it at this tempo. So then we start playing at a different tempo. And then you said, okay, now don't play it at all. Just play something that's like it. That's not it, but that's like it, that feels like it, And we would start doing that, and then the red button would get pressed and it was such a good exercise in like, you know, yeah, there's the times where you write a riff that is in your heart or whatever and it comes and it's like, but you have a bunch of musicians in a room, and to guide us into making music that would be appropriate for what you wanted to make with him was such a such a cool experience. And then the thing I was really amazing was you would come into the room and you only you didn't talk to us on the talkback. You only talk to us if we were doing something that you didn't like. If we were doing something that you liked, we weren't. We weren't sculpted. I just kept playing the part that I was doing over and over again. And if you wanted Chris to change your pattern, you kind of took an ear off him and told him, or if you wanted me to do something, you kind of told me. And that was such like a hands on, like amazing exercise. And I don't remember what the music sounded like because it was so long ago, but it was incredible. And I've made so much of my music exactly like that music that's out from there, and it was you know, when was the first time you did that? What was that might have been the first time? Honestly, you remember the process kind of going. I remember the process exactly. It's because usually when I go into the studio, we go into the student Typically we go into the studio with songs already written. I don't usually go into the studio with a blank slate to make something. Justin wanted to go in with more of a blank slate, which was not the way I normally work, but I'm down to try whatever. So this was a way to jump start the process, to try to find grooves or fields or directions, starting points and then hopefully that would inspire a vocal idea and which when he was up for doing. It was incredible every time, amazing, like ridiculous right over there, ridiculous. So then the vocal idea would happen, and Matt would kind of determine what's supposed to happen next, you know, because now we sort of have the maybe not a whole song, but a part of a song, like usually the key part of the song, maybe not the hook or sometimes just the hook, but but like a key component. And Mean's like, okay, if this is this part what naturally wants to happen next, and you try all the different variations and see where it goes. It's amazing. People don't realize how unbelievable of a musician he really is, like as a singer, as a drummer, as a piano player, like he's it's not just like part of the show. I mean, he's really is super time gifted like that. And I think he really enjoyed that process so much. You know, I want to hear those tapes at some point. There's some good stuff on there. Yeah. Do you think of yourself more now as a songwriter, producer or a guitar player? I don't know. Um, I think a producer would you say you spend most of your time in producer mode. Yes, yeah, makes sense. One thing that I was thinking about the other day was I just made this amazing album with Miley Cyrus, which I'm so excited about. It's only her doing her like rock thing and singing, and the songs are totally have you know, their hookie and poppy and where they need to be and stuff. But it's her really in her ross form. And I was closing my eyes the other day as I was making music with her headphones on because my studio we have it kind of all open, and I was closing my eyes and I was listening to this incredible voice come out, and I'm like, I am so lucky to like listen to the human voice. The human voice is like the most incredible because you hear people play great guitar part that could message I'm sure Mike Campbell got your heartstrings going many times before, or a great you know, keyboard part, or a great riff. But like, the human voice is the only thing where you can take melody and attach lyrics to it and evoke emotion in a different way. And like you're sitting there understanding you're you're guiding this person to get the vocal that's gonna be it's on record that everyone hears and is the emotion strong enough, And it's a very cathartic experience for me, like every time, And you know, I'm so lucky to work with such a great singer, especially like her, And I just had this moment where I've just felt like really blessed the other day when I was just listening to the vocal of a song that I think is so special and it comes to life. Is that your favorite part of producing when you do the vocal? No, But I think for me the most exciting part is when it's it goes from ordinary to unusual, like like in the moment when everybody's playing and it's pretty good, it's pretty good, and it's pretty good, and then all of a sudden something happens, and it can be a tiny thing, and all of a sudden it shifts into this like you've never heard anything that's good before, and you don't know why. You know, you don't know why what. You don't know what changed between the take before and mistake, or between the last thirty seconds and this thirty seconds, but something aligns and that feeling of like it's like a harmonic convergence that happens, and that's I'm just waiting for that. That's what I'm wish And you know it when you hear it, you can't you can't miss it, you know. I got to hang with Nile Rogers recently, who's one of the great records, and he said something similar to what you just said, where his process. I loved to know everyone's process because everyone's different. He when he was recording with shek all the time, they'd record a bunch of takes and they would cut out the third course and move it to the first chorse because everyone was playing better by then. They knew the song and it was exciting and they got through the thing, and he would just take the third course and make it the first course. And like they would have to be playing as good as that for him to do it. But that was like a trick that like always worked. Yeah, And if you think about like good times, that's like later in the song, but you hear it at the top, it's really weird. We would do the same sometimes, or sometimes we would repeat a section of the song just because this one particular version of the verse was never as good as that. So that became the first hand second verse just because just because so you're sitting in your dorm at NYU and you're you're making beats, right, You're what are you using an MPC or and you are listening to when the levee breaks, and you're like, these drums are out of control? How do you make the decision to be like, I'm gonna this is, I'm gonna loop this, I'm gonna show this to someone, and these should be the drums for you know, one of the best Beastie Boys songs ever. Like, what was that process? Do you remember? Or I would say I was in general always making beats, djaying, listening to records in djaying and looking for opportunities too. And there was no such thing as sampling then, so it was more like things to either scratch in or like a breakbeat where you could play, you know, on two turntables and play a little section back and forth. So it was just an interesting idea to use something like when Levy breaks as a breakbeat, because most people were making breakbeats out of more R and B records. Yeah, and when you when Paul's Boutique comes out and samplings changed forever. Are you like, fuck, how am I gonna make records now? No? I just thought it was the greatest thing I ever heard. I never thought I never I never thought about how it affected me. I just thought about, this is great music, and I want to listen to this. I remember when I first heard Paul's boutique, was before it came out, and I was with Chuck d and we were at the Mandrean Hotel in la and we listened to it together and both of us said, this is the future hip hop. This is the greatest thing we ever heard. Were so excited. We loved it. We loved it. We'll be right back with more from Andrew Watt after the break. We're back with more from Andrew Watt and Rick Rubin. What was I what's your first memory of music in your life? First thing you remember any experience in music? I went to go see George Benson when I was like six with my parents at like a Westbury music fair. Yes, that would be the place you'd see George Benson at the Westbury Music Fair. And I remember him. I didn't playing any instruments at this point, but I remember him singing and playing his guitar solos at the same time, and being like my mind was just like blown, like how this guy is not I mean now reflecting on it's like he could how many good, great guitar players have you seen just play the most melodic things you've ever seen, but he could sing it at the same time, and that two parts of his brain completely working together. Just that was like one of the first things that I ever remember what kind of music was playing in your house growing up? My dad played me The Beatles was the number one thing, but Sabbath and Zeppelin and The Who, and my mom was listening to Stevie Wonder and George Michael and Neil Young and just all that stuff. And my dad's final collection was like a huge thing for me. I remember finding like the All Things Must Pass album super young and playing that as like, you know, you go through the Beatles and then you get the Beatles spinoffs. That to me is the best of the Beatles spinoffs because he had those songs for so long and it was kind of holding him back. But yeah, all that stuff just listen to. And then my brother, who was the one that was like Alison Chain's Unplugged in Pearl Jam, Blood Sugar Sex five years, five years so I'm turning thirty on Tuesday. Actually Coagulations, Yeah, Libra Libra gang. Yeah, what was the first music that you felt like? Was your music as a as a kid? Not your older brothers music, not your parents music, but your music. So funny, man, it was like one of the things I want to talk to about. But like I went to Sam Goody and I remember being like eight years old, kind of nine years old, and my mom would just leave me in there and go and do stuff. And I was talking to the guy at the store. I was like, I want to buy these some CDs. I have money for three CDs, and he was showing me stuff and asking me about what I liked. And the three CDs he gave me were bloods Up in the One, Appetite for Destruction by Guns and Roses and Blood Sugar Sex Magic by the Red Chili Peppers, which that album affected me the most. Really, Yeah, it was because at the time that's like a true melding of genres. Zeppelin is my favorite band ever, you know, and obviously Guns and Roses amazing and I both those albums are in my DNA for sure. But the Blood Sugar Sex Magic album was like I had to know every crevice of that and it was so cool to hear rap and rock and funk and all of those different things kind of coming together and it really just had a super profound effect on me. I have no idea. Yeah, nice, Yeah. And then you know, being becoming so close with Chad kind of working with him and that's how we met. We did session together and then we became so close. And then obviously he was you know, gracious enough to bring me around the other guys and they've all become friends and are I know those are your that's your family. They're the most special group of people that you can imagine. But you know, it's this weird thing where you could on your idols become your friends and that's such a trip. You know. That's where I feel like the simulation is like a real thing. You know. I found myself in Egypt with them when they played at the Pyramids last year, and I'm like getting I'm so lucky to like not only go and watch them play, but they let me come on this amazing adventure of like riding camels and they shut down the Pyramids and I was like they're taking in that culture of like privately looking at these things that are older than time and that no one really knows how they got there. And I was just like, you know what, maybe this whole life thing is not really a real thing because you're not supposed to do this. You know, you're not supposed to like get these experiences. It's miraculous. I'm sure you had those moments. Absolutely, It's unbelievable. Happens. It happens all the time, and I still every day I can't believe when it happens, happened yesterday, happened, yes what happened yesterday? Just had a long conversation with Bruce Springsteen that was mind blowing and it was just a trip. Yeah real. I heard this awesome story of Jimmy was producing that album Born to Run, and he brought down like the mix mixes back to his dad's house in and he had him on cassette. It's like cassette at that time, and he went to sleep. He was like late. They worked on the mixes all night and he got up in the morning to like go get it and make sure it's still sounded good in the morning. Gives ears a break and the cassette was gone. He's like, where the fuck are these mixes? Like, oh my god, and freaking out calls his dad, and his dad's like on the construction site that he works on. He's like, oh my god, Jimmy, this is the best thing you've ever done. The guys on the site they love it. It's amazing. He's like, Dad, bring the mixes home. You don't understand. You gotta bring the mixes home. And he never told Bruce that story until like, really really recently. And but if you think about it, the working class guy on the construction site heard this stuff before anyone else. There's kind of nothing more that Bruce would have. I don't know Bruce at all, but I just know what I've heard, and I think he would probably really like that absolutely. So I just love that story. I love those stories behind the record. And then you know, I've I got the ultimate honor, which you've had a bunch of times of making an Aussie album last year, which you know, you asked me what the first thing my dad played me Sabbath and and like you've spent time with that guy was amazing. Is he not the greatest, kindest, super funny, the funniest person ever, you know. He told me. He told me a story like he went to hang out with you one night after he was drinking and he's like saying you he did, he did. I got an entire black Sabbath concert in my living room as the sun was coming up from from a high and drunk. Azzi was unbelievable. Did you put on the records and he's singing along? Yes? So I found out with him that if I start any of his songs, go automatically sing along. So for me, as like, I'm such a Sabbathan, I'll just like the other day, we're in the middle of writing. We're doing another album and I started playing sweet Leaf and he just sang the whole song. It's like, what else do you want out of life? Just listen to Azzi singing. He still loves his songs. He's been singing the same songs for fifty years and he can still do it. It's amazing. It's amazing for me, the coolest that, you know, working with him. I didn't want to. I didn't I would like, almost didn't want to do it. I made the song with him in post I had like the idea to put them together because Post loves Azzi so much. And I had taken Post to the Rainbow Bar and grill because he just like, where can I drink in la work and listen to rock And I'm like, there's actually the pace where you want to be. I brought him the Rainbow. Then he started. He was like, he's the new Lemmy over there, you know know what I mean, He's there every night, that's where he drinks. Probably not anymore with all this going on, but that's where he was, and he bought I wasn't there, but he bought an azzy photo off the wall there and he has the studio that he records in that's right down sunset from the Rainbow. So he's walking down sunset with the photo of Azzi a beer in his hand like hammered post malone, And that visual in my head made me, for whatever reason, be like Post an Azzi have to do a song together. If he could have got a picture of him walking along with the Azzi photo, that would have been the perfect cover for the same, the best, the best ever. And so yeah, we did that whole song, which was so much fun for me. And then he wanted to make an album, and I don't want to make like a shitty Azzi album because his stuff is so good. Like so, you know, Duff and Chad played on the album, which you know both those guys as well, and they're amazing and really helped make it authentic. But the moment for me that it was real was like Azzi sang and then he doubled his voice. Yeah, and when he doubles his voice, it sounds like asion record. It's crazy. I've never experienced that before because usually you want like a double at least for me to be like as close to each other as possible, and with him, the more different it is, the cooler it is. And it makes one that's clearly out of tune automatically not be out of tune. It's like one plus one equals two. I've never experienced it before. Are you still listening to music all the time. I listened to music all the time, but my default listening is not music that I would ever work on. I probably listened to more classical and jazz now, just because I want a relief from you know, I spend so many hours in the recording studio and over so many years that my enjoyment. Listening tends to be a palette cleanser from what I'm working on. Yeah, I don't. I don't find myself listening to a lot of music anymore. Like in the car, I love silence because I like podcasts. I listen to people talking. Yeah, that that too, interviews or lectures. I really like learning stuff. So you're hearing so much music and loud music all the time, and it's like almost like you want to save your ears to be able to Do you listen for fun or do you listen to see what's happening both. The other night, I was, you know, we all go through our personal journeys. I was feeling a bit sad, and I you know why, Do I know why I was feeling sad? Yeah, I know why I was feeling sad. But I was kind of going through a thing where I realized whatever, you know, you make decisions and then there's outcomes and you have to live with that kind of stuff. So so I came home and I there's a package for me my house. Opened it up and Ozzie had sent me the fiftieth anniversary A Paranoid. The vinyl had just come out, and I opened it up, great packaging, they know what they're doing with that stuff. And in it were two live bootlegs concerts. One of them was from Zurich. So I popped it in on my turntable and I just sat on my floor and I just turned it up loud and I just listened to this Sabbath live show and it's like before Paranoid came out, and the words are different, but they're basically playing down Paranoid and it's like they're on fire. And I just couldn't stop smiling. It didn't matter what was going on. This music, it just affects me in such a way it's amazing. So listening to that vinyl was just like a really good It was the first time I like sat and listened to a record through all the way and they flipped it and just listen, and I was like, I gotta go back and just do that more. It wasn't like the pressure of you saying, like you want to hear what's happening, you know. I listened every Friday, New Music Friday comes out on Spotify, and that's you know, they do their best to give you a bunch of songs that are coming out from artists that they you know, whoever is choosing that they whether they're relevant or it's just cool or whatever it is. I kind of skimmed through that. I think usually once a week or I get it later. What percentage of those things to end up liking? Very few? Because I don't know listen to old stuff when I when I do listen and listen to very old, very old music. But I just justin and just put out a new song with Benny Blanco that I thought was amazing and understated and really cool instead of overproduced and the opposite. I just heard that on Friday, which I thought was awesome and amazing. Yeah, I'm trying to think when the last time I. I don't really listen to that many. I'll listen for like a second, just like I just want to like see what's going on. It's almost like Spotify has become like of like it's like checking the stocks. It's really weird because that's the chart. It's chart. There's a chart on there. It's like there's Global Top fifty. You can fully see when your song where it is Global Top fifty and how far it's moving up now far it's moving down, And like people are listening to your music in real time and you're seeing how they like it. It's just it's strange. It's really strange. So of course I look at that, try not to when I'm in the middle of making stuff. I try and when i'm you know, I'm working so hard on the music that I make and mixing it and mastering it that by the time I'm done with it, it's like for everyone else, I kind of them getting worn out in the process of mixing. Lately, I don't think. I mean, I've had songs, of course where the mix is catapulted the song and changed it. But you know, I have an engineer who I think is incredible named Paul Amalfa, who works with me on everything I do, and is roughs are getting so good and they're doing what I want to the record, I'm like, why am I now then going to sit with someone else who is amazing at what they do? So naturally, they have an ego about how they think stuff should be, and they've never heard my song. They don't know how what the words mean, or which words should be a little louder, or which parts I love the most. Because I've spend so much time on it, and then I got to go and spend another like two weeks doing this again with someone else, and I'm already burnt on the song because we worked on it for so long. I just find the process like now, just because we can get the roughs so close to be almost a little bit unnecessary. Sometimes do you run into that at all? Or well, I've definitely gotten to the point where we've got demos so good that no matter how much time we spend mixing it, it's not as good as the rough mix. And we end up going with the rough mix a lot more now than ever. Is that happening because of how good the technology is and how good your engineers are. I'll just say sometimes yes and sometimes Noah. And same is true with mastering, by the way, like usually now for a while now, I'll always have the mastering lab master it the way they imagine it, and then also send me a flat master, which all that all that is is there's no eq there's no compression. All they're doing is balancing the level between songs, so it doesn't get you know, if one mixes quieter than the next, they just get it so that they all flow into each other without level changes, but without doing anything to them. And I would say eight out of ten times we end up picking that over there because they leave your mix ALUs. They leave your mix alone, and you can get the mixes so loud now, right, that was the overall thing. I wanted to be loud. I wanted to be loud. Also, now you know you can change things, Like are there any albums that you've made where you're like, I want to remaster this. I never look back, I will say. The only thing I'll say is like, if it was mastered using old technology, you know, thirty years ago, we might try remastering it now to see if just the technology has gotten better to where it sounds better. Yeah, you know, But also, what's the point If it's such a classic album that people love so much and have bought zillions of copies and it means something to them, why change it? Yeah, it's true. Is it for the love of just making it better? This could sound better for you. Yeah, I would never think about remixing anything, or it's more just that. I'll give you an example, although this is an ample about a remix and it has nothing to do with me. I'm just a fan, but I don't know if you've heard the last year's release of the White album deluxe version remixed and remastered. It blew my mind. Now. It's probably my favorite album. Listened to it a million times in my life, and it only sounded better. It didn't sound different, but I felt like I could hear it in a way that was never able to hear it before. Like there, it had a clarity that was never there and a detail. And it's not like, well, I hear this other thing that I never heard before because it's louder. It never felt like shined. It just was clear, and I loved it. So that was the best example of somebody using technology to take something that couldn't be better and making it better. And they mixed it at Abbey Road, and they did it where it was made, and they did it the right way. And did George's son do that? Yeah? It's awesomes? Yeah, I mean those are those are those are the album. I always say that every person that I work with, if I'm working with an artist or a friend, anyone that's like, I want to play guitar, what should I do? The only thing to do if you want to learn to play guitar is or write songs. It's by a Beatles chord book. That is. If you sit with that book and you can play through every one of those songs, don't have to do it well, but you can finger though every one of those chords and every one of those songs, you will know everything you need to know about writing a song, because that's just it. I mean. And they were like badly classically trained musicians, you know what I mean. Like they all started on classical music at Blackbird is like a flip of an old classical song. They were just like that was so important to them, you know, and in their upbringing of music. And because of that, the chords are so detailed, but they put them into pops. So I mean, I think that's just like for me, I'm taking chords and playing it and then making a buyner after. It's all Beatles all the time forever. Well, thank you for sharing stories, Thank you for talking to me. I don't even know really why I'm here. I just want to hang out with you. Who will continue now on a personal note, cool, thank you thanks to Andrew Watt for sharing some amazing stories with us. Look forward to hearing more music from him in the future. You can hear a playlist of some of our favorite Andrew Watt records at broken record podcast dot com, and be sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel at YouTube dot com slash broken record Podcast. There you can find excited cuts of new and old episodes. Broken Record is produced with help from Leah Rose, Jason Gambrel, Martin Gonzalez, Eric Sandler and his executive produced by Miolabelle. Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industry and if you like our show, please remember to share, rate, and review us on your podcast app. Our theme mus expect any beats. I'm justin Richmond Pace