Dr. Joel "Gator" Walsh on Pediatric Myths

Autism Surge And Vaccine Risks

SPEAKER_00 0:00

There's so many kids that have very severe autism. That number is skyrocketing. It's like 25-30% now. And we don't have the mechanisms to support that many kids. Vaccines are the only drug that you cannot sue the manufacturer for damaging. A vaccine's not a magic pill. There are benefits to it and there are risks.

SPEAKER_03 0:17

I believe most of these childhood illnesses are really important for kids to get, especially for immunity later in life.

SPEAKER_00 0:25

By far the thing that shocked me most was the autism research. When it comes to vaccines, we were always taught the science is settled, but you're crazy if you think vaccines have anything to do with autism, we know.

Meet Dr Joel Warsh

SPEAKER_03 0:36

I don't think vaccines is the only cause of autism. I think it's a perfect storm. It's always three stressors that come together in a band. If you are between a shot, I said shot, in a hard place, then you're going to want to stay tuned for this next guest, Dr. Joel Walsh. And I am so glad to be here and with my wife because she is so passionate about this. We have three of our biological children who were not vaccinated. And obviously, you being a pediatrician, did I even say that that he was a pediatrician? He's a pediatrician. So for him to write a book called Between a Shot and a Hard Place, uh, taking difficult vaccine questions with balanced data and clarity, my gosh, I cannot wait to hear the story, how you ended up here. Um, because vaccines are the cash cow.

SPEAKER_01 1:30

It's unemotional. So that unemotional stance really, a lot of people can't handle that conversation around this topic without emotion.

SPEAKER_03 1:37

Correct. Well, we're gonna have it without emotion. Well, I don't know about that.

SPEAKER_01 1:40

Yeah, not me.

SPEAKER_03 1:42

Emotion's fine. We're gonna have, oh yeah, I got it.

SPEAKER_01 1:44

Only because this is truth. And when truth is presented and the audience doesn't want the truth, they just want to dig their heels in and be dogmatic in their approach and believe what they've been told. That's when I get passionate because it's called being closed-minded. It's called being exactly what we're being accused of being, and that's not the truth. Well, she's right.

SPEAKER_03 2:06

This is the most emotional topic, and and that's why you know people isolate themselves and people get mad and people get angry at other people. So we're gonna we'll go through all that. But I I do want to start with you being a pediatrician, writing a book like this. First of all, start with how you became a pediatrician, and then how you ended up here against the cash cow of big pharma.

SPEAKER_00 2:27

Yeah, it's it's never a place that I would have ever imagined being. I certainly never imagined discussing vaccines in the way that I have been in the last year or two. You know, for me, I so I grew up in Canada. Um, I used to coach my brother in baseball and hockey, love working with kids, and so I started working in summer camps, just loved working with kids in general. And so when I went to medical school because I love science, it was always to work with kids. I love getting ahead of things, preventing things. And I just always thought being around kids was more fun than being around adults, and they actually listen and got better. So that's what led me into pediatrics.

SPEAKER_03 3:00

Well, interesting, you said you're always about preventing things, right? That's why you're that. And so vaccines are supposedly about preventing things. So I'm sure you were really pro-vaccine, you know.

SPEAKER_00 3:11

I mean, I wasn't anything really. I just was, you know, you go to training, right? And and at that time, I don't think you're really thinking about it. You kind of don't learn that much about vaccines in hindsight. You just get taught these are the horrible diseases, these are the vaccines that can prevent those diseases, they're great. Here's your schedule, go do it. And I went to a very, you know, Western top program, Trump's hospital, Los Angeles, great training, but didn't learn that much about vaccines, right? You really just get taught what I mentioned, and then you just go do it. I think for me, what really changed was meeting my wife. Um, she's very holistic-minded. I met her around that time, and I started learning integrative medicine, taking functional medicine courses, and again, really the only thing you hear about in medical training is oh, that stuff's all woo-woo and out there. But when I was going to these programs, it was like, wow, this is amazing. Like, why are we why are we not learning about diet? Why are we not learning about nutrition? Why we're not learning about exercise and sleep? Like, there's nothing woo-woo about this. This is so interesting. We should be thinking in this way. And so because I love that, I kept learning and I started practicing in that way. But when you work in integrative medicine, you realize very quickly that you're gonna get a lot more questions about vaccines because there were a lot more parents I think are hesitant in that space. And so I had to start learning about vaccines because I was getting all these questions I didn't know the answers to.

SPEAKER_03 4:29

I I'm surprised in P, you know, going through medical school, I'd get, you know, they're not learning about vaccines, but you know, specializing in pediatrics, being a pediatrician, you'd think that they would just go through every vaccine in great detail.

Why Vaccine Talk Became Taboo

SPEAKER_00 4:43

I mean I mean, we learn the vaccines, but you're not learning really the ingredients. I mean, maybe there's a handout. You're not really learning about safety, you're really learning about which vaccines you can use for what, what's the schedule, and go do it. These are the best things ever, the best things on our planet, the best things we can do. You know, I mean it's really just kind of a cheerleading for vaccines. And and and there's not a lot of thought that goes behind it. You just do it. Yeah, right. That's your schedule. This is CDC schedule, this is what you provide. So I don't think I was really thinking about all that much then, but as I was in practice over the years, I was getting more and more questions, realized that there was so much that I didn't know, had to start learning and reading things. And the more that I read, the more that I realized I didn't know. And and so I just found that very interesting. But certainly over the last few years, as everybody knows, you couldn't talk about it, right? And so I was talking about it more and more in the office, and I was getting so many questions online, but it was not a topic you could really talk about, or else you would just lose your platforms. So that made me really frustrated. And then certainly with COVID, I think that kind of boiled over. People were really frustrated. So was I. There was a lot going on, and I said, look, I just have to talk about this. I think it's crazy that we can't talk about it. And so that's what led me to write the book because I really wanted to do a deep dive before I was gonna talk about it because I knew obviously it's a super controversial topic, maybe the most controversial topic. And if I was going to speak about it, it had to be as knowledgeable as I possibly could be, so I would be able to speak about it. And I didn't write the book to convince anybody to get vaccines or to convince anybody not to do it. I just wanted something that was balanced. I wanted something that was in the middle, that looked at the reasons behind the positives potentially for vaccines and any of the concerns and tried to put those together because I never saw that. People would always ask me, like, oh, you know, what should I read? Okay, well, you can read something from the CDC, like a Paul Offitt type book, but then you have to read something else if you want to know what the concerns are. And you never hear those things discussed or debated ever. And most parents live in the middle. Most parents want their kids to be healthy, they don't want them to get a disease, but they also don't want to have a reaction. Right. And and so I wanted something that could be a little more balanced to be helpful to at least help them to understand, but also help doctors understand like where are the concerns coming from and why are some people concerned. Yeah. And maybe vaccines are not always perfect. So let's talk about that.

SPEAKER_03 6:59

Yeah, I think most moms, so they have this like intuition that maybe I'm not doing the right thing, and they're very worried. Fathers are like, just do what the doctor tells you, typically, typically. Um, we you just right here, live, we just had my last guest come out with her little girl who was here watching our last interview. And she said, you know, well, let me tell you my experience at the children's hospital here in LA, right? They pinned her in a room because she wasn't gonna vaccinate her child, threatening her. And she turned to her daughter and said, Okay, mommy's gonna get a little bit nasty and mad. So she cautioned her daughter. I thought that was pretty classy. And then she went at it and said, I'm walking out of here. There's nothing damn thing you can do about it. I'm taking my daughter with me. How dare you? And she went off and she left, right? And you said, Well, I've worked there, I know their tactics, right? I mean, that's what people are facing, man. I mean, this is the she said it. It's like this is an emotional thing. When people face that, they typically cower down.

SPEAKER_00 7:54

Yeah, it's a very emotional topic, and maybe the most emotional topic in pediatrics that people are being forced to do things they don't want to do. And I don't believe that. I'm not against vaccines. We give them in our office. I don't force anybody to do anything, and I don't think anybody should. I think it should be their choice. I think my job as a doctor is to educate, to inform people of the risks versus the benefits, the risks of the disease if you choose not to vaccinate, the risk of the vaccines if you choose to do it. And then ultimately it's up to the family. But that hasn't seemed to be the way that things have moved in medicine, especially over the last few years. There's a lot of push to do it or else, or do it, or you're kicked out of the office. And a lot of practices don't even take patients right now that that don't follow the schedule. And that is putting pediatrics in a very confrontational place where I think it's never been before. And certainly after COVID, trust in medicine is gone. I mean, it was like 70 plus percent before, now it's under 40%.

SPEAKER_03 8:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:48

And rightfully so, rightfully so.

SPEAKER_01 8:51

People are thinking for themselves. Yeah, no, how encouraging.

What Safety Studies Actually Show

SPEAKER_03 8:53

Well, and have the ability through chat, like the young generation. I mean, they they can come up with things, you know, better oftentimes than their doctor, right? And it's like, oh you know, it's a different world. Did you watch the deposition, the nine-hour deposition, or maybe you read some of it of Aaron Seary, the attorney, is winning all these uh legal battles with the vaccine thing. Um, he interviewed the man himself, the the number one vaccinologist in the world. I mean, the gavel is named after him at the vaccine safety, whatever the that's called the NIH, something or another.

SPEAKER_00 9:27

For pluck, the pluck-in, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:28

Yeah, the pluck. Yeah, so Stanley Plock-in. That I don't know if you saw that deposition. Oh, I did. Yeah. But like, for example, this is just one the hepatitis B vaccine, which they say is safe, they only looked at it for five days. As a pediatrician, how does that make you feel? Meaning, five days of just following the symptoms and saying, okay, this is safe. Because if a parent watching this goes to their pediatrician and says, are these safe? Absolutely, they're safe. They're proven safe. Are they?

SPEAKER_00 10:00

Well, I mean, that's the right question, right? And and the reality is, again, we never thought of any of this stuff in med school or training. No one ever taught us any of this. So you assume, I would assume, I assume. You thought there were double-blind studies. That's what I would have assumed would have been done. And then when you start to dig into it, you realize what was actually done. And for pretty much all the vaccines on the schedule, there weren't double-blind placebo-controlled trials everywhere.

SPEAKER_03 10:27

Oh, by the way, I think there might have been two or three, but they were the placebo group wasn't a saline shot. It was uh straight aluminum or the old vaccines.

SPEAKER_00 10:36

So every vaccine, for the most part, has had some sort of placebo-controlled trials. The problem is the word placebo, you would think, is a saline, but in a lot of them, there it's actually another vaccine. Yeah. So they use the word placebo and they say, oh yes, they've all been placebo-controlled studied. But the reality is the placebo is another vaccine or aluminum or some other adjuvant that's in there or some sort of mixture. So it's usually, or pretty much never, for the vaccines on the schedule done in that way, which I would assume would be the way that it's done. That's why would you not want that? Why would we not want that to be the original way that's a good thing?

SPEAKER_03 11:07

Well, because it will show bad. That's why they don't want it.

SPEAKER_01 11:11

You know what I keep hearing? I keep hearing assume, right? I keep hearing that word assume. The doctors, the students that are taught, they assume things. And parents assume that their doctors are knowledgeable and they've done their homework. And sadly, the doctors haven't done their homework in many cases. The ones that do do their homework, they actually take a stand and then they start questioning things. And that and that is sad because that is reflective of what's going on in our in our country today. Is, you know, we're we're told what to think instead of how to think. And those that start questioning and challenging, you know, the current paradigm become the crazy people, the ones on the fringe, the one, the lunatics, the ones that, you know, you don't want to be associated with and you need to be afraid of them. And that is so counterintuitive to how God made our brains, you know, and it's an insult. Right, it is an insult.

SPEAKER_00 12:07

And it makes no sense because there's no reason why you shouldn't be able to question anything. But certainly a medical product, certainly something we're giving to our kids, to a newborn baby. Yeah. You you don't I don't have to be right. You can prove me wrong. That's fine. I'm happy to change my opinion. But if if you look into a product and a lot of very intelligent people start to look into it and then start to have concerns, whether it's parents or other doctors or other practitioners, when they do a deep dive into vaccines, which most people haven't done when they were growing up, haven't done in med school, and you start to look and you're like, okay, well, I didn't actually realize that's what we're basing what we're saying on.

SPEAKER_02 12:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:42

Then you have to go back and say, okay, well, are is what we're saying correct, or is it not? Can we go back and get some research to look into this? That doesn't mean that a vaccine is inherently unsafe. But if you have concern around it, if hundreds of thousands of parents are saying, well, my kid got a vaccine this day, and then the next day things changed, that should be enough information to say, well, we need to take those concerns seriously and we need to study that as best as possible. We need to have some humility to say, you know what, maybe what we're doing isn't the best we're ever going to do in humanity. Maybe we can make vaccines better, maybe some vaccines we don't need anymore, maybe we can change some, change the schedule. I don't know what the answer is. Maybe there's an ingredient in there that's a problem. Like, for example, if you were to find, I don't know, aluminum increased the risk of asthma by 10 times in kids. Wouldn't doctors want to know that? Wouldn't you want to know that that was true? So you could say, okay, well, maybe we don't use aluminum anymore. Maybe we put a different ingredient in. Maybe we don't need diphtheria anymore because no one's had diphtheria, or maybe we don't have to give polio to every kid at two months old because there hasn't been in 40 years. Like maybe that's a vaccine you could do later. Like these, there's no exact answer. The answer is we need to be able to discuss it.

SPEAKER_01 13:51

But that's what that's where the passion comes in, right? For me, for someone like me who made the decisions with information. You know, it's it's obnoxious for me when I hear someone call someone like me that did do their homework and basically said, You aren't in a position of qualification to make the kind of decisions and take the kind of stand that you're taking that affects other people potentially negatively. I go berserk on that perfect.

SPEAKER_03 14:24

You're a mother and you're the mother of your children. So you are in a position of that. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 14:27

And and I'm digging for the information. And I am fortunate that my husband knows how to interpret the studies, you know, that he knows how an opening line of a study is can be completely deceptive and not what the actual findings are of the study. He knows where to go, what to find, how to interpret that.

SPEAKER_00 14:49

Or the news on that study way worse.

SPEAKER_01 14:51

Yeah. So I mean, so maybe I'm in a position of of greater advantage than a lot of women, you know, or or men looking for answers. But at the same time, it is an offense to just a human who thinks to be told that they don't, they're not qualified to make those kinds of decisions on behalf of their family. And worse yet, putting their kids at risk. If if their vaccines are working, why are they afraid of my children?

SPEAKER_03 15:17

I want to, I want to talk about that.

SPEAKER_01 15:19

That is inferior. That is that so it's like a double whammy. So at a certain point, in this whole little, you know, schism of communication, I am going to flip inside out, you know, because I that's when that's when I just get really, I get angry. Like seriously, just hearing you speak. And on that last note, I just, you know, I I mean, I get tears in my eyes because I'm watching these kids. We we mentioned this earlier. I was talking with you about this. You know, we watch TV, we see the St. Jude commercials. What has changed? I mean, granted, toxins are overwhelmingly proliferating in our society. We don't have a lot of control over a lot of that. But, you know, what else has changed to the degree vaccines aren't absolutely a toxin? And these kids that are dealing with this stuff, I mean, there are too many cases that we know firsthand who they had their shot and the bottom fell out shortly thereafter, some you know, catastrophic disease. And and I mean, I am just so tired of not exposing that potential for people to think.

SPEAKER_03 16:23

Joe, what was you dug into this? Um what was the most surprising thing for you? Meaning you came from a paradigm when Aaron Seary, you know, the attorney who's taking on these cases, you know, he just kind of dug in blindly. I mean, he didn't know what he was going to run into, and it was shocking to him the lack of evidence. I mean, he just he kept thinking he was missing something. Even as he went into the deposition uh, you know, with um Plotkin, he was thinking he's going to come, and here he is nine hours going. He had nothing because there is nothing. What was the most shocking thing for you in this discovery?

SPEAKER_00 17:00

Yeah, well, the the biggest shock in the last few years, I would say, before doing digging into the book, was during COVID the discussion around safe and effective. So that was the first thing because that was the messaging that we're hearing. And sitting there thinking you can't possibly know something is safe when it's new. You could certainly say something like, well, based on the research that we have so far, it seems like there are benefits, it seems like it decreases your risk of hospitalization and death. We haven't found any major signals yet, so we think it does benefit you, but we have no idea what it's going to do in six months or a year because it hasn't been that long. Like that would have been an accurate potential statement. You could get behind that. But when you say safe and effective, that was the one of the first things that really piqued me my mind to be like there's there's something going on here with vaccines. Then you mix that with natural immunity, where they were saying, well, if you have the disease, that doesn't matter, which makes no sense because that's everything. That's never that's never been taught. No other disease that that makes any sense. If anything, you should have more robust.

SPEAKER_03 17:57

We all had we had basic immunology.

SPEAKER_00 17:59

You should have more robust immunity. I mean, uh, the point of a vaccine is to give you some protection before so you don't die. But presuming you got the disease and you didn't die, then you should have very good immunity to that disease. There should be no reason you should need a vaccine, at least in the short term. So that didn't make any sense either. And then you know, you hear them the Paul Offits and everybody talking about it now, and they're like, well, you know, we just didn't want to confuse people. And it's like, again, that's such a lack of humility and such a lack of reasonableness for people, which is why nobody trusts those uh institutions anymore.

SPEAKER_03 18:27

People watching this, Paul Offitt is a very outspoken vaccinologist who learned everything, according to Paul, um, from Stanley Plotkin, who is like the godfather. I had to be a good thing.

SPEAKER_00 18:38

But those are the big folks in vaccines that are the standard.

SPEAKER_01 18:42

The big money. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:44

And one thing that uh, you know, Aaron Seary, um, I keep bringing him up because my interview with him was so stellar. Um, you know, he was um stunned just that the amount of respect that these guys got. And he said that medical doctors, pediatricians, they really know nothing about vaccines. It's only the vaccinologists that he found actually knew immunologists. They really don't know, they don't have time to study it. So I'm not being critical here. I'm just saying it's not their lane to understand the vaccine, they just trust these vaccinologists, especially Stanley Plotkin.

Autism Evidence And Research Gaps

SPEAKER_00 19:19

I would agree with that, and that's the way that I was. I mean, I didn't necessarily trust Paul Offitt or Plotkin specifically. I mean, they're not like I think those are the people that kind of formed things. Um, but I think you just trusted the CDC and kind of the CDC schedule. Um, but for me to answer your question, so by far the thing that shocked me most was the autism research when it comes to vaccines. We were always taught the science is settled, we have this massive amount of robust data about vaccines and autism. You know, you're crazy if you think that vaccines have anything to do with autism. We know. And then you go look at the research, and there's so minimal research on vaccines and autism.

SPEAKER_02 19:55

I know.

SPEAKER_00 19:56

Like I could not believe it. And just like you said, you know, with Eric, like I couldn't, I thought I was wrong. I thought I had to be wrong. And and so I kept looking, kept trying. And I have a master's in epidemiology, so I I've done health research before. So I'm pretty good at looking at stuff, but I was like, I can't, this cannot be right. Like, this cannot be what it's based upon. So then I left it for a little bit, started reading some books. I read Paul Offitt's book on vaccines um in the autism section, Peter Hotez's book, and I was like, there has to be other stuff. What am I missing? Yeah, and they cite the same things. Now, there is some research on MMR and some research on thimerosol, which is the mercury component of vaccines, that's not really in it anymore. And that's really it. There's not a lot of research, or really no research, on all the rest of the vaccines. You give a whole bunch of them in the first year, hepatitis B, pneumococcus, polio, and there's no studies on those. There's no studies on all the vaccines, and even the ones that you have. It's MMR, so measles, uh, kids that get that shot versus kids that don't get that shot in the setting of getting all their other vaccines. So that is not a study that I would want to have to be able to say anything near vaccines don't cause autism. The answer is we don't know because we haven't studied.

SPEAKER_03 20:59

We don't know. It should always be the answer.

SPEAKER_00 21:01

That should be the answer. You could say we haven't found any studies in the mainstream literature that show that very clearly vaccines cause autism, but we don't know because we haven't studied them all.

SPEAKER_03 21:11

We don't know because there's not been any real, true, real double-blind studies done to say causation. Because a double-blind study is the only way to actually show causation. Now, I interviewed um uh Del Bigtree in his film An Inconvenience Study. If you haven't seen it, go to aninconvenience study.com, watch it. That was a cohort study that they did from Henry Ford Institute. I mean, one of the most prestigious, you know, instant health institutes on the planet, right? That's why they he did the study. He wanted the study done there. And they compared vaccinated and unvaccinated groups. And it was shocking, not to me, not to others, but it showed that the unvaccinated group was by far way healthier than the vaccinated group. You know, so that's not a causative factor. That's a cohort study, right? So you're not showing causation. So So to your point, if you ask your pediatrician, are these vaccines safe, then the answer should be we don't know.

SPEAKER_00 22:07

At least for sure in terms of autism. And then everything else, you can, you know, they're there, we need to do those studies. We need to do long term studies. We've never done them. We've never done it. Because they don't have to. They've never had to do vaccinated versus unvaccinated studies, and you could do it. They keep saying you can't do it, but you absolutely could do it. You don't have to do it blinded.

SPEAKER_03 22:25

But the reason they say they can't is an ethical issue.

SPEAKER_00 22:28

Right, they say that, but and and I I think you're gonna have a very hard time ethically doing a blinded study. You're probably not gonna want to or give vaccines to people that don't want them, and vice versa. But you could certainly do it open. You could certainly do it where people can choose which group they're in, they can choose to get vaccinated or not, you can follow them for 10 or 20 years, and you can see what happens. There's no reason we can't do that. There's nothing, at least that I can think of, that's unethical for that, and it absolutely should be done. But at least if you weren't gonna do that, you could at least look at the big databases, look at the kids that are vaccinated versus unvaccinated, and see those outcomes. And again, going back to the, I thought that was done. Right.

SPEAKER_03 23:04

Like, like I wouldn't assume most people do. Most parents think that it was done.

SPEAKER_00 23:08

How could you not go to the Kaiser database, the Harvard database, the vaccine safety data link, all these things that we have or other countries and look at kids that are vaccinated versus kids that are unvaccinated and say, okay, how many kids have autism? How many kids have Crohn's disease? How many kids have another autumn? Like there's that's an easy study to do epidemiologically. And the fact that those don't exist is insane.

SPEAKER_03 23:27

But it exists now. I mean, but they didn't publish, but it wasn't published. Exactly. Because he didn't want to publish it because of his reputation, he would lose everything.

SPEAKER_00 23:34

Right, which is why that study is so important. Yeah, because it's it's such a great impression of what's happening and what's happened in the vaccine world where people say, Oh no, you know, there's no reason for for why we wouldn't know that vaccines could have an issue. And the reality is he was able to show that. Like that hidden camera footage is so very useful because you it it is if you don't have that, then you know, Henry Ford says, Oh, well, just the data is no good, so we didn't use it. But you see literally him saying, I choose not to do it because I didn't want to lose my career. Because it's true, you probably would have.

SPEAKER_03 24:08

And by the way, Dell asked him, and this is all in that movie, an inconvenience study. Dell asked him, and and it had to be a hidden camera because the answers would have been different. But he said, Could this study have been done any better? He said, No, it was perfect. We flipped it every which way, right? To make sure that the data was right. And by the way, I mean, you're talking about a six-fold increase in autoimmune conditions in the vaccinated group, two and a half uh increase in the uh autism. And you know, I mean, you can go down every chronic condition that we're seeing in children today, and it was a massive increase.

SPEAKER_00 24:40

Yeah, and and the crit there are criticisms of that study, but it's a retrospective study. There's gonna be criticisms of every retrospective study. All the other vaccinated studies pretty much are similar in terms of being retrospective. So it should be in that pile of vaccine studies, and you can criticize it. That's what you're supposed to do, that's what peer review is supposed to do. And then you say, okay, well, we disagree with this, this, and this. Here's how we're gonna do it better. The point of that study should not be to say this is no good, let's throw it out. It's here's what we found. Is this true? Because if this is true, this is a big deal. Therefore, let's replicate it in Harvard and Kaiser and every other place and let's see. And maybe you can do 10 other studies, you're not gonna find them.

SPEAKER_03 25:16

By the way, there was, I quote me if I'm wrong here, but six or seven other cohort studies that showed the almost the exact same statistics that this uh Henry Ford study.

SPEAKER_00 25:26

So there are some other studies that have done that, but generally those are by individuals who are, I would say, more anti-vaxx or whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that so that this was the first one where it was somebody who would be would be very, very, very pro pro-vaxxied, went in very pro-vaccine, worked in a very pro-vaccine environment with data that wouldn't have been able to be or wouldn't have been manipulated by this guy to make it look like vaccines were causing a problem. I'm not saying the other ones did that, but you could certainly argue because with epidemiology and with retrospective studies, the problem is you can adjust the data however you want to get the findings that you want, unless you're very ethical and just do it with a and I think that's why that study was so important.

SPEAKER_03 26:06

That's why it was so important.

SPEAKER_00 26:06

Because it's somebody who's very pro-vaccine finding something that is concerning for vaccines, and nothing has ever been done before like that. The only other ones that you have are by individuals who have you know predetermined notions on vaccines, right or wrong.

SPEAKER_03 26:19

And I I agreed with him because he said in the with the camera on, he's like, Well, why wouldn't you publish it? And he said, Because I'll lose everything. Um my reputation's gone. And and he he's right about that. Um, so I I kind of felt badly for him. And but then he said, But what about where he's at right now? But he, you know, but what about all these kids and these parents and people who need to know? And you know what he said to that? And he and again, he's right. You know what? It's this is such an important thing for these pharmaceutical agents. It's so much money that they wouldn't do anything about it, it wouldn't make a difference anyway. Um he's kind of right about that, Joel.

SPEAKER_00 26:57

He he's right and he's wrong. So I I think he could be right, but I also think a study like that from a place like that could be one of the things that gets the ball rolling in a better direction. I mean, it already is, right? We already have some momentum with Secretary Kennedy, you already have some momentum with people asking questions, and you certainly have momentum from parents because parents are questioning things like they never have before. But what you don't have right now, what's truly missing is the science to show that there could be problems that regular doctors, regular preatricians would respect. Yeah, that's what's missing.

SPEAKER_03 27:28

And I want people to be clear because that study, you can't use a cohort study to show causation, right? You have to have a double-blind, a legitimate double-blind study. And and people are saying, you know, why isn't that done? We talked a little bit about the ethical thing, they have reasons, but it the it in my mind, the reason it's not done is because they know it's not going to show favorable to their product. It's not.

SPEAKER_00 27:52

But yeah, and to your question, yes, a cohort study is not perfect, but the thing is, we don't have the cohort study showing problems from reputable sources. Well, now we do. That's what you're published, so but it's still there. Things would change, I think, or at least start to change if you would have 10 published papers in the New England Journal of Medicine, Journal American, you know, the the reputable ones that showed uh maybe there's some problems here, maybe there's some issues with this, maybe there's an increase in asthma, maybe there's an increase in allergies. If you had a few of those, it wouldn't still not lead to causation, but you'd have another side of the argument because right now the only things that ever get published are things that show that vaccines don't cause a problem. And anytime that something that a vaccine does cobber a problem, they either don't publish it, they're scared for their career, or it doesn't go into a big journal and they say, Oh, they're just an anti-vaxxer. And and so they just kind of discredit them.

SPEAKER_03 28:39

So when someone goes to their pediatrician right now, I mean, literally a hundred out of a hundred, if they say, Is there any link between the vaccine and my kid getting autistic? They'll say, Absolutely not. There was a study done that showed there is absolutely no link between autism and vaccines. What is that study? Years ago, I looked at that study when it came out, and it was an a you it absolutely is not a good study for multiple reasons, even who was behind the study. Do you have comments on that?

SPEAKER_00 29:03

I mean, there are a few studies. There certainly have been some studies on MMR and thymerosol. There, the the bigger ones are coming, have been coming out of Denmark, so there's a few of those. Um, none of those studies are necessarily bad. They're just epidemiologic studies by individuals in general who are very pro-vaccine or pro-vaccine in terms of the city. That was my problem with the study. So that doesn't mean that they're wrong or right. It just means that they're biased. They have a bias in their direction. And you would assume that if somebody like, let's say, Frank DeStefano, who was head of you know vaccines at the CDC, is publishing something, if he publishes a whole bunch of things showing vaccines are a problem, he's the head of vaccine safety. He's probably not gonna keep his job very long. Yeah, exactly. That's the problem. So that doesn't mean that what he's doing or what those studies are doing are wrong. You know, that's who's gonna publish some of those studies, but you also have to get studies from other places and from other individuals, and you need things to be open.

SPEAKER_03 29:50

When they're looking at a product and they're looking at it for five days, in that deposition that Aaron did with Plotkin, um, he said, Is five days enough to actually show that it would cause a chronic disease? And he said, you know, absolutely not. He didn't even know his name was on it, he didn't even know how many days it was looked at. He was shocked that it was five days, honestly. But then he went on to say, Yeah, but this is kind of it's average for most vaccines.

SPEAKER_00 30:16

Yeah, I mean, most so so that study was they were actively following them for five days, and then they followed them by report and and parent report for a few months. But that's that's the reality that I think just most people don't realize. And again, back to your question about the studies. Most studies are done by pharmaceutical companies. Most studies are done before the the product hits the market. They obviously have a bias, they want their product to work, and so they don't want to show any problems with it. So they will study it if you're lucky for six months to a year, maybe two years. But most of them are just for a few weeks actively to six months. So that's not going to show you chronic conditions that might come up five or ten years later. And the the big issue that we're having right now in in North America and around the world is chronic disease. These rates are skyrocketing. And so the question that we should be having is if you get a hepatitis B vaccine when you're one day old newborn, if you get 10 vaccines before you're one, does that impact your immune system in a way that might lead later in life to increasing those risks? That is the question that parents have or around autism. If my kid gets zero vaccines, do they have an increase, do they have a decreased risk of getting autism? That's the question that parents have. So you have to follow kids for, you have to follow them for a long time, and you have to have a bunch of kids that don't get vaccinated to even know what's right or wrong. And and you may do those studies, and it may turn out that vaccines have nothing to do with it, maybe other toxins. But we should be able to look into it. Parents should be able to do that.

SPEAKER_03 31:35

I mean, when you look at the Amish community, I'm the only cases of uh autism in those community are the ones that came from outside the community and were vaccinated. So you're talking about a non-vaccinated group that has no autism. I mean, I think that's the problem there.

SPEAKER_00 31:48

It is it is much more rare. They they do have a little bit of autism, but it's much, much more rare.

SPEAKER_03 31:53

Yeah, exactly. And by the way, I'm one to say that I don't think vaccines uh is the only cause of autism. I think it's a perfect storm. I deal with neurotoxic humans, you know, and let me tell you, it's always three stressors that come together and bam. But I do believe vaccines are a major, major role. Here in California, you're talking one in 12 autism. Like what's your feeling on that? I mean, why one in 31, I think, is national.

SPEAKER_00 32:18

Well, one in 31 is national, one in 12.5 boys in California. It's the highest that I've seen anywhere, which is insane, right? I mean, if you live in California, you're in public health in California and you have the highest rate of autism, how is that not your number one priority to say why? And it's not, oh, vaccines cause autism, it's all about vaccines. No, there are many things that that can cause autism. Kids are born with autism, genetics certainly play a role. Uh, I've seen personally kids that have autism and never had a vaccine, so they're obviously not the only thing. But the fact that you would discredit anything from that list is insane. We have to figure out what's going on because there are kids, more or more kids with very severe autism, and you don't have one in 12 adult males with autism in California. It's insane. It's not just better diagnosis. That's a part of it. For sure it is. We're better at diagnosing it, we're more aware.

SPEAKER_03 33:05

Yeah, but look, but but that's not what's going on. Yeah, actually, right? That's not what's going on. I'm 60 years old. I can tell you we didn't have one kid that was off in my class that would be like, does he auto? What's wrong with that kid? No, none, zero.

SPEAKER_00 33:17

And and if we can't have conversations And we're the adult autistic people, what are we doing? Like, yes, certain individuals with autism can be extremely highly functional, can uh be savants. That's great. If they don't, if you're not needing help, wonderful. But there's so many kids that have very severe autism, that number is skyrocketing. It's like 25, 30 percent now. And we don't have the mechanisms to support that many kids. And if there is something that we are doing, something in our environment, vaccines, anything else that we could look into to decrease that risk of severe autism, of severe complications for families, why wouldn't we want to do that? That's not to uh look down upon anyone with autism or say that we don't care about them as much as somebody else, or that there's a problem. We we need to look into everything. This this is our job in healthcare, right?

SPEAKER_03 34:02

Our job is to help when we look at all chronic disease in the last 50, 60 years, this is what's happened, right? And and I believe, I know that it is the amount of toxins that we've never seen in humanity ever. From the womb to the tomb. I mean, you know, you're you're talking about the amount of toxins from mom today, from microplastics, their silver fillings, mercury dumping in utero. I mean, I could go on and on. I mean, it we have been inundated with the personal care products. You know, this perfect storm is leading to not just an increase in autism, but it's leading to an increase in all chronic disease.

SPEAKER_00 34:37

That's what I think. I mean, I I don't see any other logic to it. It has to be the environment because you don't have this kind of change over such a short amount of time. And thankfully, we're talking about it for the first time. I mean, this is not something we even talked about it, you know, even five years ago. So I think that's important. And and obviously the medical system is pushing back against vaccines the hardest, which you would expect. But I think if there's ever a time to see change, it's now things are moving in a better direction, parents are asking questions, and I think that's a good thing because again, it's it's not like we if we were to say, you know, if I were to say, Oh, I have a magic pill, your kid could take that magic pill, they would never get any of these diseases, there's absolutely no side effects, they would never get sick in their life. Most people would not be against that. But a vaccine's not a magic pill. There are benefits to it and there are risks. And if you can't discuss the risks, then you can't decide who it might be reasonable for, which vaccines might be the most reasonable. Can we reassess things in 2026, not 1980? And what do we actually need? What do we actually recommend? What do we suggest for families? And we have to also think that parents can be smart enough to make some decisions for their own kids.

SPEAKER_03 35:42

And and Trump and Kennedy are changing that. They're going with a different vaccine schedule like that. And um what what are they mimicking? The Dutch Denmark. Um, do you agree with that?

Denmark-Style Schedule Shift

SPEAKER_00 35:54

Um what's Secretary Kennedy and the HHS have uh changed the schedule to be more like the Denmark schedule, which I think again, the discussion around vaccines is good. I think we need to have this discussion, we need to make changes. I think it's difficult right now because they're making changes, but they don't really have the buy-in of uh the physicians. So they're doing it very unilaterally, which you nailed my next question, which is tough because I think by doing that and and not even including ACIP, their their committee, and and just kind of unilaterally doing that, they've made a recommendation, but nobody's really following it. So I think that parents are hearing it, but it has created a lot of confusion. I think they're in a very difficult place because to make the changes that they want to make take would really take a lot of time, and to do the changes that they really want to make personally, um, they would need the data that doesn't really exist. So they have to do what they think is right. And ultimately, by making those changes without that data, it's really hard to justify it.

SPEAKER_03 36:54

I think they're doing well, uh to your point. I you nailed my like second and third follow-up question right there, because without the data, that's the problem here. I mean, this is the problem. There isn't going to be data. How do they get the data? What studies are they doing? You know, I mean, this is the issue here because we can't say that these things are safe. And to your point, we can't say causation either, because we just don't have the data, and nor are they motivated to come up with the data.

SPEAKER_01 37:21

But there's enough of the there's enough of the fallout that we can see and the direct the how many mothers say immediately after this shot, this happened. So isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 37:31

Oh, yeah, there's a problem. Right.

SPEAKER_00 37:33

And I agree with that. Yeah, and I don't I don't disagree that there's a problem or concern or a lack of listening to parents and a lack of looking into the problem. The question becomes is moving to something like Denmark the thing to do? Because if you if you feel like let's say vaccines cause all sorts of problems, then realistically you shouldn't do any, right? So that's that's my position. So that that's that that would be what one side. Now you're not gonna move from you know 30 to there to zero. So that's not gonna happen. So I think what they're doing is well, Denmark does very few, they have very good outcomes, they have a lot of things.

SPEAKER_03 38:00

Explain for people the difference between the two schedules here.

SPEAKER_00 38:03

So their their schedule recommendations, they do 10 recommended uh diseases versus we were doing 18. And there are many doses of multiple of these vaccines, but much, much fewer vaccines that they recommend. The rest are just if you want to do it or you're high risk. So we moved back to 11. So we're doing their 10 plus chicken pox.

SPEAKER_01 38:22

By the way, will you talk about chicken pox when we're finished with this?

SPEAKER_00 38:25

Well, that's another thing because that's another interesting, because I would think if you question 100 parents, they would probably put chicken pox near the bottom of the vaccines that they were super concerned about. But that's one of the ones that we're still recommending versus some of the ones that we're not. So I think the change that we have is certainly uh, you know, questionable. But I think the point is they want to open up discussion, they want to move things in a different direction, they want to decrease the amount of vaccines that are required. You can still get any vaccine that you want, they're still all available for those. But in just changing the schedule, it makes it very confusing because then you're saying, well, it's shared clinical decision making, you can give it to people at high risk, but who's at high risk of rotavirus or hepatitis A or hepatitis B? Everyone has some risk of those things. Rotavirus is everywhere. So what what where is the where is the line between who should get it and who shouldn't? There's not a lot of guidance that came with that.

SPEAKER_01 39:09

Well, and because we don't have the studies, but we have the sample set of Denmark children and their outcome. They're far healthier. So it it it is a logical shift based on just what we do have access to, which is looking at those children.

SPEAKER_00 39:26

Yeah, and I I don't think necessarily that it's a bad shift. I just think it was a very uh different way to go about it and and and to just kind of announce it as opposed to going through what would usually be the channels.

SPEAKER_03 39:38

I get that because in other words, you it's what's it going to do? It just confuses people.

SPEAKER_00 39:43

What's creating emotion? It's creating the emotion. You know, generally with something that monumental, a vaccine schedule shift, there would be a lot of discussion, a lot of debate. Uh all the stakeholder moves. Correct. But even if there wasn't, usually you would expect like ASIP, the committee would have discussed it, and American Canadiatrics would be a part of it, and all the groups would be a part of it discussing.

SPEAKER_03 40:05

That is the problem. That's the problem. I think they realize that they're never gonna get their buy-in, no matter what. Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 40:11

Yeah, that's what they that's why you asked me the question, and I say it's difficult because I understand why they did it. Yeah, and I don't know that they would have a different way to be able to go about doing it.

SPEAKER_01 40:20

So, people, you need to be logical, right? You when when all else fails, use your brain. I mean, seriously.

SPEAKER_00 40:26

But now you have parents that are very confused because you have American Academy saying one thing, you have HHS saying another thing, fear.

SPEAKER_01 40:31

They're not confused, they're afraid.

SPEAKER_00 40:33

They have different things they're hearing from different places. And you know, I think you certainly come from a certain uh place with your opinions on vaccines, but there are a lot of parents that don't know any of this. Right. So most parents are. Honestly, that's where I'm trying to reach.

SPEAKER_03 40:44

Right. You know what I'm saying? I'm trying to be fair in the sense that people are confused, people are do have fear. Um, people want, no matter what, people want the best for their child here, right? And and no matter what decision you make, they are making that feeling like they made the best decision for their child. So let's be clear there. So I'm not being critical of anyone who vaccinates or definitely who doesn't, uh, even though I'm in that group. Um, I I just think the benefit of all of this is number one, we're we're able to talk about this now. I couldn't even run a show like this before the last show.

SPEAKER_00 41:18

I couldn't talk about this even a couple years ago. And that's why this is so important because you you're educated, you have looked into this, you you have you know very strong feelings on it, as you should when you look into it. But most parents never did. Most most of people, you know, around you know in their 30s, 40s, 50s, they didn't think about vaccines until they didn't have them since they were kids. They had a couple, you know, maybe things started to be thought about again during the COVID vaccine, or maybe if they have a kid and they're like, wait, how many vaccines do I have to give my kid? What's recommended? And they don't know any of this.

SPEAKER_03 41:47

Kids end up between 72 and 91, I think.

SPEAKER_01 41:51

You know, but but when we start analyzing how we got here and what information we don't have access to, and we trace it to why we don't have access, and it comes down to the power of big pharma, then the only logical thing to do is critically think. Correct. At the at this point, and at least have conversations. Right, and have conversations and talk to people that have done their homework, be open-minded, especially because we do know people care about their kids, but because they're getting, you know, this information from their pediatrician, unlike you as a pediatrician, their pediatrician is, you know, maybe not letting them continue to have a place in his office if they don't follow that schedule. So there's there, it's so those things are make it so much more fear-based for parents. And it's it's not right, it's so wrong. It is so anti-American. I mean, like you know, it is anti-American to not be able to speak freely, think freely, and act freely. And that is when I mean, no matter what, it should be a choice.

SPEAKER_03 43:01

And I I want people, just to be clear, even though I'm on one side, I I want people to have a choice whether they want to or not. I think you want that, I think we all have right because that that is at the heart, you know, of freedom. And it's always gonna work out best if you have a choice, right? So be clear on that. That's what we're for here. Um you were gonna comment.

SPEAKER_00 43:22

No, I was gonna say that I couldn't agree with that more. You know, the reason, again, when I wrote the book, why I talk about this, it's not to convince anybody to do anything, it's to be able to have discussions. If you can't have this conversation, we can't move forward. That's right. And if people are not able to hear your passion, they're not able to hear the concerns that you have, the concerns that I have, the concerns that other people have, the reason why very pro vaccine doctors think that you should get this vaccine, the reason why we should be worried about measles versus should be worried about the measles vaccine. If you can't hear all those things, you can't make an educated decision. And every kid's different. You might have hepatitis B and having a child probably should give that kid hepatitis B vaccine. Like that's very different than the kid who doesn't you don't have hepatitis B. So it's not like vaccines. Are inherently bad for everyone always. There are gonna certainly be situations where they could be able to do that.

SPEAKER_03 44:04

Yeah, if it's B, that would be the argument to take it.

SPEAKER_01 44:07

But they're not they're not testing to find that out. They're just well, were that's changed. And right, but but that's where we need to get back to.

Childhood Illnesses And Long-Term Tradeoffs

SPEAKER_00 44:16

It's it's risk versus benefits and explaining to you your risks versus your benefits and letting you choose what you feel like is right for your kid. If measles is going around, there's a risk for measles. Your kid could get sick, they could get pneumonia, they could die. It's very rare, but it's possible. You need to know what that risk is.

SPEAKER_03 44:32

Here's probably where maybe we said we disagree um on this. I believe most of these childhood illnesses are really important for kids to get, especially for immunity later in life. Um, you know, and I I talked to Peter McCullough about it. He's, you know, he's changed his views on a lot of this stuff, right? And I've talked to Aaron Siri about it. But like, you know, getting measles, we were, as a kid, we were sent down to get measles, mom short. I mean, all of it, right? You know, if someone has them, they get parties. And and studies do show that it helps immunity with bigger problems later in life, from cancer to other um autoimmune, you know, other autoimmune, it decreases the chances of all of those. So I believe.

SPEAKER_00 45:16

We disagree though. Okay. Um I I I the research on that is very sparse. There are very few studies on it. I've looked into it. I mean, there are some studies on cardiovascular disease and cancer, but it's just like two or three. There's very few. And they're not great studies. So it doesn't mean that it's untrue. It means that's really important to know, and we should study it because that's extremely important in that equation. Because if you were to say, well, look, you know, you have a one in a million chance of dying from measles, but it you it decreases your risk of heart attack by a thousand, one in a thousand. Like then you can make an informed decision. You need to be able to have those informed decisions because you have to know how to weigh that risk. You have to know, okay, well, I could have a one in a thousand risk of dying from measles. That's a real risk. So what could happen? And if measles is everywhere, then your kid might be exposed to it. Do I want that risk? But does that increase my risk of autism by two times? Right. Autoimmune condition by three times, asthma by four times, uh, decre you know, increase my risk of cardiovascular. Like, like that's the numbers that we need. And if we could lay that out on the table, then you could say, all right, well, here's what your benefit from the measles vaccine is, here's what your risk is. What do you want to do? And everyone's gonna make a different decision on that. Some people are gonna say, I don't want any risk for measles, I want the vaccine. Okay, great.

SPEAKER_01 46:26

And the difference is we are we personally live proactively. Many people, too many people in society live reactively. And those reactions are creating such chaos. And and what they're doing, instead of assuming responsibility for the decisions they've made without information, they want to attack those of us who actually have made unemotional decisions, but have chosen what we've learned based on, you know, or chosen what what we are doing based on what we've learned. And I and I think, you know, it's it's kind of like when people say, I was just unlucky, I got cancer, you know, or I had the gene, right? It's it's such a my paradigm doesn't accept that.

SPEAKER_03 47:07

I'm like, right. My thing is okay, what have I done in my life? What was I exposed to?

SPEAKER_01 47:11

Right. It's and and and yet, you know, what's the saying? Ignorance is bliss. It's almost as if if they don't uh take a stand or learn something here, and then something happens later, they can just be innocent of it. They can just be a victim of it. And and I vic the victim mentality is so it's just, it's just it just I just can't handle that because we all have a choice in how we handle our lives and the circumstances that occur. But how much more empowering and useful those challenges become when we actually step into a journey of learning from things. And and and I think that's the conversation that you know we keep trying to have with people. But what if, you know, what if, right? So I I so appreciate that. I am curious about um I would talk about chicken pox and shingles. I want to talk about that. I have a girlfriend who had chicken pox. She got it, you know, like as a kid, sixth grade or something. That's when I got it. And um yet as an adult at 70, she just had a horrendous experience with shingles. So a lot of people say, or so I've thought, that if you get chicken pox, you are then you shouldn't be contracting shingles later in life. Now, my question is do you believe, and is it is the reason that shingles has become even pervasive in our society, especially even with the the ones that have been naturally immunized with chicken pox, is that because of all the vaccines?

SPEAKER_00 48:45

That's another great question that there are very mixed studies on. So, I mean, first of all, you can you can definitely get shingles if you had chicken pox when you're younger. So chicken pox uh varicol lays dormant in your body, especially if you're super stressed later on, it can reactivate. It doesn't usually, but it certainly can. It's all yeah. The question that's been posed, and it's a very reasonable question, is does the vaccine, if you're if you get vaccinated as opposed to getting it naturally, does that increase your risk of getting shingles later? And there are actually lots of good studies that show that it might. So that's a big question because shingles in general is much more costly, much more damaging, much more painful than chickenpox in general. That's not to say chickenpox never causes a problem in kids. It could, it's just very rare. Like you could die from chickenpox, super rare. You can get meningitis, you get a skin infection, but that's really, really, really rare. Shingles is very painful, very costly, very debilitating. And so even a small increase in shingles later in life is a big trade-off for doing a vaccine younger in life. So that that's a again, a very reasonable public health question that's been discussed, and some studies show that shingles has increased. Well, shingles has definitely increased, but they're not sure if it's because of the feet.

SPEAKER_01 49:54

But what about the shingles vaccine?

SPEAKER_03 49:55

We we suspect, but we'd have no studies.

SPEAKER_01 49:58

So what about the shingles vaccine then? It it exacerbates the same as getting a chicken pox vaccine. Potentially, yeah. In society. So if I'm around somebody.

SPEAKER_00 50:06

Did you overtake it? I I know. Probably. But but but that you know, each person's different.

SPEAKER_01 50:10

Yeah, no, I'm just curious, but but okay, well, that makes sense. But it also, you know, people like us aren't running around complaining to those that are getting vaccinated for shingles. My girlfriend did not, but you know, those that are, I mean, who knows who's been vaccinated for what now, that you're in close proximity to, and they're shedding, right? And yet we we aren't fussing about them. And I, and you know, the the reality is we have a lot more grounds to be fussing about them than they do have about to be fussing about us. We're not giving off anything that they need to be afraid of, except their irrational fears.

Herd Immunity Claims And Mandates

SPEAKER_03 50:44

That brings up a straw man, though, that they use, right? Meaning your kids unvaccinated are a danger to my kids. You as a human, we went through this with COVID. You're a danger to me because you weren't vaccinated. Now we know now that's not at that's true, but I want to hear your opinion on that.

SPEAKER_00 50:59

Yeah, and that that's one of the main arguments you hear all the time is you need to get vaccinated to protect my kid, or you need to get vaccinated to protect the kid that can't get vaccinated. So there's there's some mild truth in that, but mostly not. I mean, first of all, you have to take the vaccines as to what they are. Many of the vaccines don't protect anybody else at all, they just protect you in theory, right? So they're they're decreasing your your risk of severe disease um or death. That's that's the point of a lot of the vaccines. And so they don't protect anybody else, they don't stop you from transmitting the diseases, you know, let's say tetanus, for example, it's in the air, you're in the soil, so therefore you're protecting yourself from the toxins that are produced, but you're not protecting anybody else. Polio, same thing, you're protecting yourself, but nobody else. So there are many of vaccines, many of the vaccines that have nothing to do with other people, and I don't think most people realize that. They think, you know, especially for like, let's say California for schools, there are a number of vaccines that you are required to get for school that only protect you and nobody else. So if the theory is a public health protection, that doesn't make any sense because it's not actually protecting other people. So so that that's one side of things. There are some of the vaccines that based on the research that we have, it does protect other people. The measles is probably the one that you know you would think of most. Um, because generally, if you are if you do get the measles vaccine, you are protected as a pretty good vaccine in terms of protection. And you generally would not spread it to other people. So there is an argument for that in theory.

SPEAKER_01 52:18

And what's the consequence of getting the measles vaccine?

SPEAKER_00 52:21

Well, that that's a that's a toy. So that I mean that's the argument, right? Is do you as a mom, as a parent, do you should you be forced to take the risk for your own kid if you don't feel that risk is necessary, versus protecting potentially somebody else from being able to pass around measles? And everyone would have a different answer to that. Some people would say, well, we have a we have a an obligation to protect other people. Some people would say, Well, you have to do what you feel like is best for your own kid, and if there's some risk from the vaccine, which there is, because there's never vaccine.

SPEAKER_03 52:47

In my mind, it would be like pass it around.

SPEAKER_01 52:49

But there but there is, as he just said, there is risk of the getting the vaccine. And people are responding in the short-term, obviously, hype and fear. I mean, I'll give you an example. Um, when my son Simon, who's now 22, was in third grade and there was a measles outbreak, right? And he and the the school called, he had an exemption for vaccination, and the school called and said, Hey, there's, you know, we've officially need Simon to take, what was it? Um, it was like a five-day antibiotic or whatever, right? And I said, Well, that's ridiculous. I'm not doing that. And I even said, you know, there be when people were asymptomatic, he was already exposed. And now all of a sudden, and and he's been around his brothers, and you know, everybody's everybody has been exposed. So I am not willing to do that. He he's not a I'm not concerned. And they said, well, then you'll have to keep it was a Z Pack, I guess. They said, well, then you'll have to keep him home for a month. I said, Great, he'll stay home for a month. Guess what? He stayed home for a month, and I mean, but that is how determined I was not to be bullied by propaganda.

SPEAKER_03 54:00

Thought we would be crazy for pulling our kid. We did more damage keeping him out of school for a month.

SPEAKER_01 54:05

I'm just saying, there's the Yeah, but look, then then COVID hit it. Like how many years ago.

SPEAKER_03 54:08

We made that decision based on, man, there's no way I'm gonna stop. Number one, I want my kid to get measles. Number two, you know, I'm not taking that risk or benefit because of what I know. Um, so a month out of school was no big deal to us. But most parents would have said, I can't keep him out of a school.

SPEAKER_01 54:24

Well, that was like why people got vaccinated for COVID because they didn't want to lose their jobs. Right. They wanted to see.

SPEAKER_00 54:29

But that's what's wrong, right? I mean, I I think at the end of the day, if you're gonna boil down to what has to change with a vaccine policy, nobody should be forced to do anything. I think if you took that away, then the temperature would decrease a lot and then we could move back to science. Yeah. Because the the issue to be the biggest issue is forcing people to do things. I don't think people should be forced to do anything. You can think vaccines are the best thing in the world. You should think everybody should get every vaccine. That's fine. But somebody, a different parent in a different situation should be able to make a decision. They don't feel like it's right for them. If you have to make some sort of concessions in an outbreak, okay, fine. So so be it. You might have to do something. Um, that may be the case. You know, you can argue those things too, but uh there should be no an argument in my mind that you should be for.

SPEAKER_01 55:08

And by the way, then there's here's a political statement, but Trump's the Nazi.

SPEAKER_00 55:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:12

I mean, you know, like I mean, that's so infuriating to me because if anything, he has restored common sense into how we govern our bodies.

SPEAKER_00 55:20

Right. But and just so back to the question, just because what this is why I think it's so important and nuanced. There is public health implication, there are public health implications to it, especially with something like measles. It's the easiest thing to talk about because it's so in the news and it's so contagious. Yeah. Everybody getting vaccinated does protect the kids that can't get vaccinated. How much protection you get, how worried you should be about measles, those are different questions. But it technically is true. If you get your vaccines for measles, you're probably protecting other people from getting measles. Whether you should be forced to do that or not, you should not be forced to do that. How dangerous is measles actually to you? Very debatable. Um, I would say, you know, in general, not very dangerous. Yeah, not.

SPEAKER_03 55:56

Yeah, and I'm thinking, well, gosh, you know, let it spread. Let's let's build healthy immunity. But again, that's my paradigm. I'm very different. Most people aren't educated enough even to make that paradigm.

SPEAKER_00 56:06

And it also, I think, depends on how healthy you are in general. Absolutely. And that's something that's unfortunately, even in public health, we just don't have those discussions. Maybe it's too, I don't know, politically charged or whatever it is. But if you are wealthy and healthy, generally most of these diseases, if you are nourished, are going to be very mild for you. It's not zero. Like a kid could get whooping cough and die, but that's not that common. A kid could get measles and die. It's not very America. Usually it's people that are individuals that are low socioonomic status, that have had poor nutrition, that have a higher risk. And that's important when you're making personal decisions to know what your what your position is and what your actual child's risk is. Now, does that mean you shouldn't do something to protect another kid? You should protect the other kids, but then you have to decide at what cost and and what what the disease is and and what you're willing to do. Yeah, we did.

SPEAKER_01 56:50

We kept our kid home. But even still. And he was already exposed. That's the that's the frustration because we all know how this works. You know, you the f you if if I'm with you and you get the flu, um, you know, I've been with you the last three days, I've already been exposed. So it it just again, the logic is just missing.

SPEAKER_03 57:07

Well, by the way, that's a whole other conversation because even the flu, right? Why doesn't everyone get the flu in the same house? They were all exposed. It's called immunity. And that was your last point, right? It your your health of your immunity rules. When you look at that cohort study from Henry Ford, right? If you look at those numbers on there, six-fold increase in autoimmune conditions and four, maybe it was fourfold autoimmune, six-fold uh asthma, whatever it was, but staggering numbers of chronic disease. Virtually, I mean, I think there was almost zero in the unvaccinated group. When I look at that, if that's the only thing that we have, and I say, my gosh, it's like I I don't see the vaccine ever being worth it. I don't want to increase these numbers of my kid in any of these chronic diseases, one, let alone the number there. So, I mean, I know we don't have the double blind studies we should. I hope we do. I hope, you know, Bobby, the administration.

SPEAKER_00 58:05

But we can get more studies like that. Yeah, we can get more studies like that to work. Like it would not take very long.

SPEAKER_03 58:10

Looking at the the the amount of information in the insurance companies. Right.

SPEAKER_00 58:14

The question has to be is that right? It's not this is wrong, this is crazy, this person anti-v.

unknown 58:19

No.

SPEAKER_00 58:20

Those are staggering numbers. The data could be bad. It could be bad data, it could be there's could be something wrong with it. I don't know. We don't know the data, we didn't look at it, we don't know. That guy is very good at doing research. He's done major studies. We have to assume he knows what he's doing. And even that vaccine was pretty good.

SPEAKER_03 58:34

Matter of fact, he wrote the rules on vaccine and not.

SPEAKER_00 58:36

We can give the benefit of the doubt. Maybe that study was bad in some way. Maybe that maybe the information that they have was bad in some way, maybe they weren't following unvaccinated kids for whatever reason. I don't know. But when you look at that data, you have to take a pause and say, that is a big problem. If that is true, that would put vaccines in a whole different category of risk for your kids if you are getting them. We have to repeat that to see if that's true or not. I agree. Because there are so many parents and practitioners say, hey, I take care of kids that are vaccinated, unvaccinated. The unvaccinated kids seem healthier to me. All of that data together has to make you think, okay, like what it's not a reason that no one should ever get a vaccine, or vaccines are inherently always bad. That's a this is a big important signal. Let's look into that because if it's true, maybe we can make them better so you can be protected and not have these problems.

SPEAKER_03 59:21

Yeah. I agree. So you're there are other pediatricians on board with you. I mean, you you have your, I'm sure you have friends that are pediatricians. Well, maybe not anymore. I don't know. I don't know. Okay, yeah. But I mean, like, what are these conversations like? Take us in the room. Say, Mister, we got my dog under here complaining about something.

SPEAKER_00 59:41

It's pretty mixed, but it is interesting because I do try to come at it from a data perspective, and I don't try to come at it from all vaccines or bad perspective. And I've had a lot of conversations over the last year. I thought I was gonna get a lot of hate, and I haven't gotten a ton of hate, certainly get some, but not all that much. I think doctors are starting to wake up a little bit. Okay. Because parents are pushing back. So that's positive, yeah. And so I think while they might not agree with things that Kennedy, Secretary Kennedy does, or they may think that vaccines are the best thing ever still, they're hearing all the concerns and they want to learn more. And I think those conversations are becoming much more helpful for doctors to at least be open a little bit more to the fact that maybe there are some concerns around vaccines, or maybe they should at least think about not forcing people to do them. And I've seen it in many chat groups. I made a post about it a little while ago. Some of the doctors were saying, Oh, you know, we we're thinking about changing our rules and our practice because so many people are leaving the practice because we did we force people to vaccinate, and and that's really you know impacting us.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:39

That's a big change. But is it is it true that is a big change. Is it true though that um maybe this is per state? I don't know. But they'll pediatricians have to stay within a certain percentage of their their patients um of vaccination.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:56

So so you there there are no rules to require vaccines. Schools have rules. So in certain states, is there a pressure on from it depends. There's not a pressure from the state, I would say per se, but a most doctors work in a system. So most doctors work for a big hospital or they're okay. So are they putting pressure? So they could be putting pressure on you to say, oh, your numbers are too low. They could be putting pressure for anything. Oh, you're you're you're not doing enough visits. Oh, you're not doing it, we're see your numbers for vaccines are low. Oh, we see your numbers for this procedure are too low. You know, certain everything like that. So you can certainly be getting a few.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:27

Do they ever bonus pediatricians for their numbers?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:31

You can, in theory, get that. It's not all that common, I would say. Uh usually in systems, you're not really getting bonuses, but there are there are general bonus systems from some of the insurers. It's very small. I mean, you hear the stuff online that go doctors are getting huge bonuses and things. So let me go back to that. That's a bonus, right? That's still a bonus. It's not really happening so much anymore. That used to happen a lot. Okay. So that was a big thing many years ago. They they mostly stopped allowing that. There's a rules against that. So mostly you're not getting vacation. You can be paid to be a speaker, you can be paid to go to conferences, so that's I guess kind of a vacation. Yeah, that's a bonus. But but it's not like it used to be. Where like from what I know, when I was younger, I missed the boat on the fun stuff from from pharmaceutical companies. But they used to like have like parties and things at all sorts of places that fly you across the country and Hawaii and all those things for doctors, um, especially surgeons and other practitioners. They're not allowed to do it anymore. So there's less of that now for sure. Um, but doctors, especially patricians, are not getting huge bonuses in general. It's the lowest paid subspecialties. So there are vaccine incentives, but it might be a couple cents in the mixture of other things. So it's not really a huge moneymaker in terms of huge bonuses for patricians, even though you hear that online. Most doctors are salaried. Yeah. So they're they're really they they get vaccines because they believe in them.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:45

I figured as much. Take us through if someone gets the book. Uh, you know, what take us through the book a little bit as far as like what what will they be educated about? You know, what are some of the highlights?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:57

Yeah, they're they're gonna go on my journey of of learning vaccines. I mean, I talked to the tourney at the beginning, and then I go through so the first section, maybe third, is really going through all the diseases. So you learn about each other. And that's so helpful by the way. You learn about the risks of a disease, uh, then you learn about the vaccines, what's in the vaccines, what are the risks that we know from vaccines. The most of the first third I would say is very mainstream kind of information that is important so you have an understanding of the concerns around the diseases. And then the rest of the book really goes through all the big questions that parents have and what are what is the research on both sides. So when you're looking at something like asthma and you hear someone from the CDC say, Oh, there are no risks from vaccines. There's never been a study that showed that that vaccines could be related to autism or allergies or anything like that. And I show those studies that are good studies and kind of describe kind of the back and forth, the concerns that parents have around autism, go through all the all the discussion, some of that pluck-in deposition. I have some of the transcripts in there from and always it's nine hours, so you know the big the important parts, but some of that's in there just so people could see the individuals who have concerns. Here's why, and here's how the research was done. Like, I I don't know if you've read Um Turtles All the Way Down, it's a great book that goes through how the research was done on vaccines, and so um I go through a lot of that and go back through how the studies were done all the way going back so you can see what they were citing against. So you have a lay of the land and understand coming out of this both sides of risk versus benefits and what we do versus what we don't know.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:25

Yeah, so if you're uh uh if you're caught between a shot and a hard place, get the book. I mean, I mean, and I mean that. I you know, if someone's out there and they're on the fence, they're trying to gather more information, it's a real, it's a perfect book for that. Um, and see my interview with Aaron Seary and Dell Bigtree as well. Those other podcasts are really good. And Sherry Tenpenny, I interviewed.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:45

Peter McCullough.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:46

Peter McCullough. I mean, you know, I've I've dug in. I, you know, this is an important topic for us. And, you know, it's obviously we made the decision not to vaccinate our children. Um, but that's not, you know, that's not where my passion comes from. I I want people to have freedom of choice. I I always say that I want to have the conversations. I'm good with people having a different opinion than me. I am. I I sat at the table last night, right? Or the night before, and I complete different opinion um, you know, with someone about you know a topic. And you know, and I like it actually. I don't mind it, but most of our friends haven't.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:19

I mean, not most, but I would say, you know, 50% of our friends have chosen differently.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:25

And and I will also say that over time, probably 30% of those 50% have shifted and now they agree with us. Yeah. I mean, completely agree with that. COVID. Sometimes that takes a personality too, though. Yeah. You know, it's it's being it's being willing to say, you know what, I didn't know enough. Now I'm determined to find out. And you know what? You were right. And but that, you know, that's that means ego needs to go by the wayside. It does.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:49

I mean, I I could say I I didn't know any of this. I didn't none I knew none of this before, and and I'm trying to help people go on that journey because I think you need to, and sometimes Especially from Secretary Kennedy, it's going from like zero to a hundred, which is not where most people are. Yeah, I find a love it, but that's me. Like that's my personality. But I think that that ultimately that's maybe the only way to get change at the moment because you can love him or hate him, but ultimately we're having the conversations now, and you can't argue that we're talking about health more than ever before, and by far that's the most important thing that he's doing, I think.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:22

Well, given the fact that Bill Gates made the recommendations of how to function during COVID, and what qualification does he have? Like I think Kennedy has a little bit more credibility and knowledge. Of course, he does, right? I mean, so again, people are reacting emotionally, um, differently than I am, of course, but they're uh they're reacting emotionally without information. And and that has become a very dangerous and very unfortunate place.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:46

Kennedy's an amazing dude. We we knew him before he ever had, you know, I sat at a dinner table with him and he he had no aspirations of being in politics, let alone president. Um I think you would have chosen HHS, however. But um, you know, his his heart has always been for the health of children.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:05

And and just the fact that he says repeatedly, I prayed for 19 years. I mean, when you pray and ask God for 19 years about something, you there is not a question in his mind about why he is where he is and what he is called to do.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:22

I mean, it's that's my sense of him too. I mean, you can agree or disagree, like him or not like him, but I don't think anybody could argue that he is not doing what he thinks is best for the health of kids and of families. And he might be wrong, but he's doing what he thinks is best, and he's not he's not doing what farm is telling him to do. But he has doing what he thinks is best.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:39

But what's the difference though? He has mountains of personal experience. Well, he's a genius, so there's no question about that. That too.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:45

But but I I I think for me, what what what is most impactful for me for him is you know that he's doing what he thinks is best, where most people in that position are doing what they are told to do, or what you know, the money that's funding them, pharma, who whatever, whatever it is, usually pharma in that position, is is kind of pushing on them. I he's not doing that, he's doing what he thinks is best, whether you like it or don't.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:04

And Trump is giving him the freedom to do it. He trusts him that so there is nothing about Trump's administration that is should be referred to as being like a fascist. I mean, there's nothing except misinterpretation.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:18

You can tell she hates that.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:20

I do because I'm I'm all I mean again, I'm all about freedom. I'm all about people being able to choose what they want to do, and I see that everywhere within his cabinet of people us being a very good thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:30

I think we'd have a much better vaccine program and a much more respectful scientific discussion. And well, if we had the discussion, we'd have a lot more science, we'd be in a lot better place. We'd have a lot better protection 10, 20 years from now, and a lot fewer chronic conditions.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:47

And we would have had a lot better protection 10 to 20 years ago, too.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:50

We'd already be in a much better place if we could have had this 20 years.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:52

If Bobby changes the fact that we could sue a drug company like every other drug for damages, we're gonna that's money makes things happen. They're going to force them to do more research. And so it'll be interesting.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:05

They have an uphill battle there.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:07

Yeah, they do, right? But imagine if that changed. Most people watch this may not know that. Vaccines are the only drug that you cannot sue the manufacturer for damages.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:16

Yeah, I think they're trying to put the chess pieces in place to go for that. It's gonna be hard. It's gonna be hard. Um, and we'll have to see if they can get that all done before, you know. It depends also if they're in office for more years. I think that's also gonna make a big difference.

Fever Antibiotics And Smart Care

SPEAKER_03 1:09:28

I yeah, it's true. Yeah, big, big true there. I want to shift gears just for a moment here, and I think this will be fun. And we're probably gonna disagree on some of these things. But let's talk about like, you know, number one, when someone should take their child to a pediatrician. Um, and some of these things like fevers and you know, um throwing kids on a lot of antibiotics. I, you know, it's like I don't know. I I don't know your stance on some of these things, but like I think personally, I think a parent bringing down a fever is a big mistake. I think fevers can be problematic over a certain thing, but I think you have to bring them to the hospital and let that make you know the decision because if a fever becomes of that big of a problem, you've got a bigger problem. Taking down fevers at home, I think is a bad thing, but you may disagree with that.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:15

No, I don't disagree with that at all. I I my general stance in medicine is we should be doing as little as possible. I'm not against medications. Sometimes they can save your life, but we use them way way too often. Certainly for a fever, that's one of the easiest places to discuss that because generally you should leave a fever alone. For most kids, your it's your fever is your body raising the temperature to fight the infection to do something, and by suppressing that, you're not helping your body enough. Your kid has a super, super high fever, like 105, they're miserable. You know, sometimes it could be reasonable to use a fever reducer, but generally you shouldn't. I mean, I would say certainly below 103 unless your kid's super sick, and there's really no reason to turn the blitz home.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:51

Our son, our son Daniel, ran 105 fevers all the time. We realized this is just what he does, but man, he got things he'd kick it out in a day, no matter what it was. Our other kids would be like 102, 103, and they would kind of linger on for a few days. Yeah, yeah. But he had this superpower, still does.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:07

And he was never, you know, I mean, he was lethargic, but he was never like out of it, right? Not hallucinating. But we overuse everything.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:14

And if you need it, then you need it. But if you're using it all the time, it's not going to really help you when you really truly need it. And I think most people jump to it because they want to do something, and that's it. Usually the best thing that you want to do is do nothing and just let them rest. And so, you know, you're mentioning about going to the doctor. Most of the time, you don't need to go to the doctor. I I think if you're worried, obviously you should get seen if your kid's having trouble breathing, if there's something very severe. But for for in general, a kid who just has a low-grade fever, a little congestion, a little bit of a cough, they're they're fine, but they're a little sick. Like, I think the worst thing you could do is go to the doctor, you're picking them up, take them out of the house, go into a room with a bunch of sick people. Yeah, it's very stressful on that. So I I think obviously you have to you have to wait, those because you you don't want to wait too long on something severe. But so that's where you know good parenting comes in of trying to identify when you really do need to go in.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:56

And and I mean, and I have this aversion to well baby visits too, which we I was just gonna bring that up.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:00

I was gonna say she hates well baby visits. What is your joy on well baby visits? What happens? Our kids never had one. What happens in a well baby visit?

SPEAKER_01 1:12:07

They they measure your kids according to a standard. Yeah, they measure and it's where they get vaccinated.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:13

So that's one of the big things. But the other big thing is you know, a doctor's job is to identify things before it becomes a problem. So you're looking at development, you're asking for problems. You're looking for problems, correct. You're looking for what might be outside of normal. And sometimes a doctor's all my kids are outside of normal.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:28

Let's get that.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:29

Yeah, but but the point though, I mean, her point, and that's why I kind of want to hear your point, right? Because um, could a well baby visit be well-intentioned? Okay. Of course, of course, but uh depends on your paradigm. But it it is who who wrote the book Um How to Raise Kids with Disney. Um, Mendelson. Yeah, Dr. Robert Mendelssohn. I mean, he he hated well baby visits, right? Meaning like he looked at them as just a reason to vaccinate and medicate, right? So, but I mean, is there any good in them?

SPEAKER_00 1:12:58

Well, I think that's where medicine has moved. It depends on your doctor. Well, that's what so it depends what you're doing, but I think the paradigm has moved much more to a pharmaceutical paradigm where we're looking for things to treat. The the well visit could be very useful. I mean, you could talk about things that are coming up, you can uh give parents warnings about the development and what to change. You can be looking at things to you know make small adjustments, help with their nutrition, answer questions. I mean, usually new parents have questions, so I think they could be very useful, especially in the first period. I do agree with that.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:27

They just need to go to you. Yeah, like you know, because like he was that person in our family, right? He's a doctor, he he came, but he learned under a different paradigm.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:36

Yeah, but I wasn't a pediatrician, I wasn't, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:39

But you just function from your paradigm, which was obviously don't bring down a fever unless, you know, don't, you know, don't medicate unless there's there's a time and a place, but there is a time and place not normal that or necessary, I should say. I mean, people what people were doing is not even normal. It might be common, but doesn't make it normal. So we just live that way. And fortunately, we were fortunate, and our kids were pretty textbook, according to Robert Mendelssohn's book. And that's what we we actually use that a few times as a manual, and you know, and it's and it's still a great book. It's still I I have it.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:12

This is better. This is a little more.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:14

I give yeah, I I give that book and I give another book. Um, I keep them at home, Susanna Arms Um Immaculate Deception, uh, because that kept me home and why I gave birth at home. So those are and those are two old older school books, but nothing's changed except the paradigm in our society. But the way our bodies function and what they're meant to do and how they respond during stress, that hasn't changed. And so I, you know, in both of those books, I just I you know, I have boys and one girl, and I I'm just so grateful that my our kids get it, and but their spouses need to get it too. And we have one daughter-in-law who daughter in love, and she totally gets it. So it's very cool to watch that next generation just say, Yeah, the way our parents raised us, we are so thankful for it. And they really all do.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:05

Have you ever delivered a baby? Well, not by myself, but in residency. How about your own? Uh well, I I mean I was there. I didn't have to do it all.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:14

But we had our babies at home, and I uh after the watching her deliver the first one, I was like begging her. I was like, let me deliver the next one.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:22

Yeah, I mean I've done I've done it, but it's it's pretty not that hard.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:26

No, I mean, but I mean she was in love with the thing. I'm not freaking out.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:32

I need my midwife. She gets things that you don't even understand, you know, and that's a fact. So if your husband wants to help you deliver your baby, like still have your midwife there.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:44

You probably still want a midwife just in here. Yeah, no, just sell. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:46

What is um a parent being at home? Like, you know, what when is the time? What are some of the big things that you would say you need to take your child to the pediatrician?

SPEAKER_00 1:15:58

I would say the big ones are anything that seems way outside of the normal in terms of their health or wellness. So trouble breathing, uh, extremely lethargic, not eating, dehydrated, severe pain, uh, sickness that's not getting better, sickness that's progressively worsening over a week or two. It's really outside of the normal. Like colds, runny noses, coughs, you know, stomach bugs, all those things. You I mean, you can go in if you're worried, if you're if you're not sure, but generally you don't need to see your doctor, and you can just touch base with them if you're Gosh, I agree with everything you just said.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:25

That's amazing. Pediatrician, I agree with everything you said. That's awesome. Where do people find you? Because right now I'm thinking if I had young kids, I would be like, this is our guy. Yeah. I mean, honestly, I travel for my hell, I travel. You probably have a waiting list practice, yeah. We have a yes, a lot of people that want to come.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:43

That's great. Which is great. But then I I hope, and and I talk to a lot of doctors too. Like, if people want this, they want uh integrative. You don't have to be woo-woo, you don't have to prescribe homeopathy, you can just talk about nutrition, you can just not be super pro-pharma. It doesn't mean you can't ever give an antibiotic. I'll do an antibiotic. We just don't really need to that often. Yeah, it's I love your balance. One of the things that's so amazing when I was in training, you know, you know all the doses off by heart for antibiotics. You're giving it left and right because that's just how it is. I almost never have to do anymore. I have to look up everything now because I have to make sure that I'm gonna get correct because it's so rare. It's it's so crazy how much of a difference it is. It's it's rare enough now that I always have to make sure to double check, except for like ammoxicillin. Yeah, um, and really any anything else, like you know, you have to look it up because it's so rare to do it. And even for amoxicillin or like it's it's very rare. Maybe once every couple weeks I'll do a prescription, it's not that common. Yeah, yeah, that's amazing. My kids are not doing that bad, they're all fine, you know.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:40

Yeah, exactly. Because you have a you have a different paradigm now of like, you know, God gave them incredible immune systems, and you know, they're gonna get well and they're gonna build immunity getting well, right? You know, you throw the antibiotic too soon, and you're stopping that natural process that innate intelligence has to build up natural immunity, man. I mean, there's a consequence to everything.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:02

Not to mention it's mostly viruses that we're treating, anyways. Yeah, it's true. You're giving kids an antibiotic when 99% of their ear infections or whatever are viral. Anyways, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:10

No, see, this is the problem I have. I'm like, they gave you what? They give an antibiotic? It's a virus. Well, it's because it might go back. Right, that's what it is. It might go to pneumonia.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:19

It's viral, walking pneumonia. I've never seen a kid once that's gone to urgent care for ear pain and not come out with an antibiotic. I always do 100% of the time. When, like, you know, let's say 97% of the time, it's viral, maybe 99% of the time.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:30

And that's sad because the doctors feel like they have to do something. They do.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:33

That's the problem. Doctors feel like they have to do something, and we have to change that paradigm. That's what we're taught. People don't want to get sued here, they want to do it just in case because it for that one case out of a million where the kids, you know, eardrum it's called. It's called cover your ass medicine. It's exactly what's happening. I mean, that's not good medicine.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:46

No, it's not. Our kids got earaches, our kids got strep throat, right? And they got adjusted. You know, and 100% of the time they got through the strep throat, they got through the earaches. You know, these are normal things the kids get. And, you know, this is when they get through a strep throat naturally, guess what? Their chances of reoccurrence get less each time. But if you give the antibiotic, the chance of a reoccurrence is the exact opposite.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:10

It goes that's what I mean. You're in the hospital, your kid's really super sick, has a horrible nominal. You take the antibiotics, you know, that's great. Like we're lucky we have them. So that's not what happens most of the time. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:19

And and just for the record, the most effective modality for an ear infection or an earache or whatever is an upper cervical adjustment.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:28

Yeah, carved these misalignments, there's so much neurology there if it affects the immune system right away.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:33

That's the facts. And so many kids aren't getting adjusted right out of the womb. I mean, our kids all were. And if a child, the more traumatic a child's, but the more traumatic a child's birth is too, the great obviously the greater likelihood. And C-section babies have a whole new list of problems because their microbiome is not being delivered the right way through the uterine canal. So, or you know, the birth canal. So there's all that. That's a whole nother conversation. But those are just things to be aware of and keep in mind.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:04

And um, yeah, we rank industrial countries, we rank dead last in infant mortality. Yeah, it's scary. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:11

Well, these are the kind of things we should be thinking about when we're making policies. Yeah. That we assume we're just the best. But we're not. Yeah, so we're not.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:18

Uh I I think we are best in emergency care though, in in so many ways. So I think we're great at surgery.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:24

We're great at surgeries and we're great at emergency medicine. I think we're fantastic at that when we need it, but most of the time we don't need it and we're pretty bad at everything else.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:31

Do you do you um you want to give your social media? How do they find you? Sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:35

You can find me at Dr. Joel Gator on Instagram or X or Substack between a Shot and a Heart Blaze. And it's really interesting because even the Substack, I write about vaccines all the time now.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:43

But Joel Warsh, you have two names.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:44

Oh, yeah, Warsh. So Warsh is my actual last name. Gator's my nickname because my wife's last name is Intelligator. Okay. So people started saying Dr. Gator and it's stuck. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:51

Yeah, because on the thing it was like, I don't know what to call them.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:53

Her last name is Intelligator.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:54

Intelegator.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:55

I like that. What is that?

SPEAKER_00 1:20:56

Uh Russian-Ukrainian. It's a Russian-Ukrainian alligator. Okay, I'm Ukrainian. Partly partly.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:02

That's interesting. That's an interesting name, Intelligator. Ooh, I like that.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:05

Well, anyway, so they find you again. Repeat it one more time. At Dr. Joel Gator on Instagram or X. You got it. Yeah. People fall. And you do, you're, you know, you're putting out a lot of good content on this a lot of these topics.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:16

Yeah, it's been really interesting to see that you can actually talk about vaccines now and nothing's getting shut down. I know. I thought it would be a good thing.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:22

Remember, we had to use the word jab. We had to make a thing just a year ago.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:26

The dollar sign instead of the So politics matter.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:29

He couldn't say anything a year ago, nor could I. Now we can. Freedom, whether you agree, whether you like the man or this or that, blah, blah, blah. Freedom still, no matter what, is the most important thing. And that's what we're talking about here. Freedom. We want people to have a choice to vaccinate, not vaccinate. And that is the key.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:45

Just ask questions. Just question it.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:47

Between a shot and a hard place, I'm sure it's all over Amazon. Correct. This is a great book. Thanks for being here, man. And thanks for what you do. Thank you. Serving a very high level. Appreciate you. Thank you.