Imagination, Aphantasia & The Mind’s Eye: Why Your Brain Spends Half Your Life Somewhere Else

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I'm Dustin Grinnell, and this is
curiously When we think of

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imagination, we tend to think
it's reserved for the creatives

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among us, painters and poets,
artists and musicians.

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But the truth is, we use our
imagination almost all the time

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anytime we reminisce,
anticipate, or plan.

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In fact, research suggests we
spend between 1/4 and 1/2 of our

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waking hours with our minds
wandering elsewhere, away from

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the present moment.
Doctor Adam Zieman's 2025 book

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The Shape of Things Unseen
explores just how central

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imagination is to human
experience.

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In it, the UK based neurologist
blends neuroscience with the

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humanities and the arts, drawing
on evolutionary biology, child

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development, literature and
music to paint a picture of the

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imaginative mind.
He examines William Plake's

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visionary poetry, Mozart's
ability to hear concertos in his

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head, and the creative insights
behind scientific breakthroughs

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like the discovery of benzene.
But Doctor Zeaman also reveals

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imaginations Darker side.
A wandering mind can be an

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unhappy mind.
Excessive rumination contributes

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to depression and our ability to
simulate future scenarios, and

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sometimes trap us in anxiety.
From psychospat illness to the

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placebo effect.
From living with vivid mental

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imagery to living without it,
Doctor Zeeman shows how

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imagination operates at every
level of human consciousness.

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Today on the podcast, we explore
the science of imagination.

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A perception might be a kind of
controlled hallucination.

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What artists can teach us about
the creative process, and why

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the line between the creative
and the curious may be thinner

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than we think.
I hope you enjoyed this

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conversation about imagination
in the shape of things Unseen.

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Doctor Adam Zeeman, welcome to
the show.

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Thank.
You for having me?

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Today we're going to be talking
about your 2025 book.

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I'll lift it up here.
It's called The Shape of Things

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Unseen, a new science of
imagination.

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I found it to be a really
fascinating, comprehensive look

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at, you know, human imagination.
You, you kind of made it hard

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for a, a podcast interviewer to
kind of break this book down

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because there's just so much in
it about how we think and how we

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perceive the world and how
imagination is a double edged

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sword.
It leads to great things, but

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also negative outcomes.
You wove in like research

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studies and literary references
and patient stories.

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So I wanted to set the stage for
us and listener to kind of

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Orient all of us about how I
kind of might want to approach

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this conversation.
So I wanted to talk about

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imagination first, the kind of
definition of it, the pros and

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cons of it, and then talk about
sensory experience, how we can

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use our imagination to create
mental images.

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Talk about mind's ear, mind's
touch, the various ways we can

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conjure up senses in our in our
mind.

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And then talk about creativity,
how writers, artists, visual

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artists use their imagination
because that's a big part of

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your book as well.
And then the latter part of the

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book is kind of how mental
disorders, you talk about mental

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disorders in the context of
imagination, various

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neurological illnesses like
hysteria and neurological

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functional disorder in the
placebo effect.

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It's all very, very interesting.
And then to end, I kind of

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wanted to talk about your
experience as a, you know, as a

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clinician, as a research
scientist, and what it was like

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to write about science, to write
Popular Science.

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So that's kind of setting the
table for us.

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I wanted to just ask, like what
brought you to this topic?

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The book is a new science of
imagination.

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What brought you to exploring
the science of imagination?

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So I, I guess I've had a very
long standing interest since I

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was a student, as many people do
in, in what makes U.S. special,

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you know, whether, whether
there's anything about the human

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mind that's really distinctive
that sets us apart from the rest

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of creation.
And I think that quite a strong

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candidate is imagination in the
very broad sense of the capacity

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that allows us to detach
ourselves from the here and now,

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recollect the past, anticipate
the future, lose ourselves in

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the virtual worlds that are
created by artists and, and I

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believe by scientists.
So I wanted to explore this

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capacity, which seemed to me was
a a distinctively human

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possession.
Just in terms of like basic

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definitions, how would you
define imagination?

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Like what is it in basic terms?
It's not a term of science, of

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course, it's a tricky, it's a
tricky term.

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And I think 1 can distinguish at
least three levels or three

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planes on which the term is
used.

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So there's perhaps it's simplest
to start with the what I think

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is the most colloquial of the
three senses.

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So if I ask you to imagine an
apple, you will, if you have

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imagery, and most of us do, form
an image of an apple in its

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absence.
So the capacity to represent

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things in their absence is that
is at least one of the core

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senses of imagination.
There is a a slightly technical

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sense in which the words used by
neuroscientists and

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psychologists in which one could
say that in perception 1 forms

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an image of the world.
So the world casts an image on

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the retina and that image then
gives rise to a perceptual

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apprehension of the world, which
is sometimes described as a

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perceptual image.
So sometimes image is used to

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refer to your awareness of the,
of the here and there, the world

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around you.
That's less colloquial than the

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second sense, which I mentioned.
First, the ability to represent

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things in their absence, your
ability to imagine an apple or

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your front door or your best
friend in, in his or her

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absence.
And then there is a third sense,

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a much a very broad sense in
which imagination refers to our

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capacity to to reconceive and
reconfigure the world, world as

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we do when we are creative.
And it's curious in a way that

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we use the same term for the
ability that underpins

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creativity as we do for the
ability that allows us to

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represent things in our absence.
Because they're, they're rather,

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they're rather separate, but
they're, but they're

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interestingly related.
I think there are good reasons

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why we use the same word, but
those senses are a somewhat

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distinct.
As a kind of footnote, it's

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interesting to reflect on the
etymology of imagination, so

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that the root is apparently a
Sanskritic word, which is

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something like eym, aim, which
means to twin or to pair.

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So that idea of twinning pairing
is at the root of not just

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imagination but also mimesis and
imitation.

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And one can see how that that
idea of twinning or pairing

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suddenly underpins the idea of
representing things in their

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absence, as we do when we think
about that apple that isn't

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isn't in the room.
But it also makes sense in terms

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of forming A perceptual image,
because then you're twinning

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within yourself, the world, the
world around you, using your

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senses.
One thing I loved about your

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book was that it was just, it
was good.

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It was good old fashioned
science writing, popularizing

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science for lay readers.
There was so much more like

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richness to the book because you
added in so many like personal

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reflections, personal
experiences, literary

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references, historical
references.

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And I'd liked all the quotes at
the beginning of each chapter.

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One of the quotes I wanted to
read was from Shakespeare's A

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Midsummer's Night's Dream,
because I wondered if this is

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maybe where the title of the
book might have come from.

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And so in the play the quote is.
And as imagination bodies forth

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the forms of things unknown, the
poet's pen turns them to shapes

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and gives to airy nothing, a
local habitation and a name.

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And it did that have something
to do with your title?

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The shape of things on scene.
I'm sure you're right that that

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was the origin, though.
It was filtered through my own

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conscious so that the title came
to me.

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And it was only later that it
occurred to me that of course, I

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was borrowing from Shakespeare
unconscious plagiarism.

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At least I've modified it a
little.

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Titles can be quite potent.
And actually, I found The Shape

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of Things Unseen was quite a, an
appropriate title, particularly

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given the interest which sort of
coincidentally, I've developed

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in the course of writing the
book in, in people who are, who

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are unable to visualize or to
experience sensory imagery, of

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course, have, have sense of,
have some sense of the shape of

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things on scene because they're
they're not able to see them in

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their mind's eye.
It reminded me of when when you

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talk about the ability to
conjure up mental images, we'll

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get into the varying degrees of
being able to of having a mind's

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eye, the aphantasia lacking
completely versus

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hyperphantasia.
This an interesting test that I

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think you introduced me to a
long time ago, which is if

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someone with a Fantasia like
myself, if you ask me the

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question, what's a darker green
like, like grass on a lawn or

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like a pine tree or something
like that.

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I could, I could tell you the
answer to that.

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I can't see it in my mind's eye,
but I do know, right?

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And so that's very much unseen,
and yet it has shaped.

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Interestingly, ChatGPT also
knows the answer to that

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question, though it's never seen
anything.

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There are several like big ideas
in your book that you circle

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around.
And one of them, I think is that

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imagination, like you said at
the beginning, it allows us to

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kind of spend time away from the
present, you know, whether it's

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imagining the future or
reminiscing on the past.

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And I wanted to just read A1
short paragraph that I think

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encapsulates this idea.
And then we can we can talk

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about it.
But you, you say actually on

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page 2, we we may not all be
constantly engaged in creative

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work.
We are all incessant visitors to

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imaginative worlds as we
contemplate future

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possibilities, recollect
vanished experiences, enjoy

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vicarious lives, travel into the
imagined territories of science.

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Deeply absorbed by these
pursuits, we spend so much of

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our time in our heads that we
often need to be reminded to

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return to the here and now.
And yeah, talk about

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imaginations, ability to
dislocate us from the present

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reality, because I think that
was a central theme in the book.

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Yeah, no, absolutely.
And I'm always reminded in this

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context of watching my research
assistant once crossing the

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road, a busy road off, sit my
office, listening to music

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through his headphones and
reading the book that was open

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in his hands.
We do risk falling into

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potholes, don't we, when we
become too absorbed in, in, in

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imaginary imaginative worlds.
But this has been studied now

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quite intensively.
And it turns out that if you

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sample people's experience from
moment to moment, we are very

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often lost in our thoughts, lost
in daydreams.

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Sort of 30 to 40% of the time
people will report being absent

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from the here and now.
And in fact, the the single most

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common mental content is visual
imagery, more common than

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awareness of the here and now,
more common than any than any

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other other mental content.
So, so we really do, I think in

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a, in a, in a now empirically
proven sense, live in our

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thoughts.
Of course not, not constantly.

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It's very important that the
world corrects those thoughts

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from time to time.
And when you're playing

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football, I guess you, you're
pretty much in the here and now.

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But but much of the time we're
occupied by by imaginative

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processes.
You're saying we're spending

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more time playing messing with
visual images on our mind than

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we're than we are perceiving the
the present?

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But you give people buzzes, and
the buzzes sound random

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intervals, and you ask people to
report what what is occupying

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their awareness.
The most common content is

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visual imagery.
Not not here and now, but but

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imagining something.
In your book you referenced a a

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Harvard study.
I think it was something about a

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wandering mind and and you said
it, it said like a wandering

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mind is an unhappy mind.
So what you explore in this

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context is the double edged
sword of yeah, sure, like being

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able to plan and think and
imagine and suggest and propose

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and create it.
It's all well and good and has

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wonderful outcomes, but it's the
IT has a the flip side of the

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coin.
Is that too much of it can make

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us unhappy?
In the most extreme case, you

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gather rumination, which can
lead to clinical depression.

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And I wonder what other ways
imagination can kind of get us

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into trouble in this context.
As sort of as a way into that,

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let me say that I, I think just
as you indicate, there's a kind

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of deep tension in, in our human
lives here.

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We, we have a wish to be
present.

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We get into difficulties when we
fail to be present,

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psychological difficulties,
which we, we, we can come on to,

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but we know no human life could
be lived entirely in the

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present.
We, you know, we have to, we

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have to take account of what
might happen in the future.

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And we, we to understand
ourselves, we need to take

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account of what's happened in
the past.

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So I think there's a, there's a
constant tug in, in human lives

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between the, the wish to, to
live fully in the present and,

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and the wish to understand
ourselves longitudinally, so to,

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so to speak, and, and to, to, to
take account of the imagined

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past and the imagined future.
So as you say, a few people with

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people who who dwell too much on
the past are often less happy

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00:13:58,920 --> 00:14:00,800
than than others.
That was the, that was the

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finding of the of the Harvard
study.

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And, and as you say, when we
become depressed, we tend to

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ruminate in a rather repetitive
way on past experiences.

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It's problematic for us if we
lose contact with reality, as

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people do in psychosis.
When they hallucinate, they

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generate images which seem to
them which they take for reality

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but which deceive them.
This reminds me to say, and

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perhaps this is something you
want to come on to, that there's

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an idea currently that our
awareness of the world around us

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is best regarded as a kind of
controlled hallucination.

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So there is a sense in which
everything we experience comes

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comes from the brain, comes from
our heads most of the time are

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00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:52,480
able to ensure that our
awareness is reasonably in line

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with, with the with the external
facts.

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What happens in psychosis is
that the the experience we

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generate loses its moorings it
it loses contact with with

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external reality and that that's
clearly not not a good idea for

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00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:09,520
us.
I absolutely want to talk more

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00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:12,160
about that in a in a few
minutes.

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This idea of like, to what
degree are we passively like

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observing reality versus
creating it?

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Yeah, fascinating.
But it, it, it made me think too

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of I, I wonder where our species
would be like without the

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ability to imagine the ability
to imagine images for one.

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Like I have a I had a colleague,
this was 7-8 years ago when I

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00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:42,560
wrote this fictional story about
someone with a Fantasia and they

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00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:44,840
cured it with a digital
technology to create

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00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:48,520
hypervantasia.
The idea of having

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00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:51,480
hyperphantasia has always seemed
like a superpower to me because

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I lack the ability to conjure up
mental images.

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So to be able to kind of go to
your favorite movie and play it

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00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:01,000
back and stop it at your
favorite scene, or even just

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picture a loved one who's passed
and it's all just seems like

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wonderful.
What inspired the story was I

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had a colleague who she was at
the top end of hyper Fantasia.

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00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:16,160
So she told me over lunch once
that when she was bored at work

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00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:20,920
at her desk, she would just go
into her mind and lift off and

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00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:22,880
fly around, fly around the
Boston area.

280
00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:29,280
And what an incredible power to
be able to escape from one's

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00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:32,720
present circumstances.
That's a very benign example.

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00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:34,760
But then you think of, you
talked about this in your book,

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00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:39,760
Viktor Frankel in the
concentration camp, he literally

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00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:43,640
used it as a survival tactic.
He was able to dislocate from a

285
00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:48,680
incredibly grim catastrophic
situation to to specifically

286
00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:51,760
like go into his apartment and
walk down the street.

287
00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:55,200
And he said these images brought
into tears what an incredible

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00:16:55,640 --> 00:16:59,440
survival ability.
And without that, we would be at

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00:16:59,520 --> 00:17:01,560
a great loss, I think.
Absolutely.

290
00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:05,119
But to illustrate the the the,
the tension that we were talking

291
00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:11,240
about a moment ago, there is a
risk to indulging one's

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00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:13,839
daydreams, and there's recently
been described as syndrome of

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00:17:13,839 --> 00:17:16,440
maladaptive daydreaming.
Somewhat dissatisfied with their

294
00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:19,319
current situation and who for
whom daydreaming becomes

295
00:17:19,319 --> 00:17:23,839
somewhat addictive, they lose
themselves in enrich absorbing

296
00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:28,359
daydreams about possible futures
to the extent that they that

297
00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:31,240
they they neglect the present,
they neglect their their their

298
00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:34,480
current duties.
Yeah, no, that, that's what

299
00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:36,480
happens in my story.
The person becomes actually

300
00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:41,720
disabled.
Because if you can imagine a

301
00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:45,720
world where everything is
perfect, where you're perfect,

302
00:17:46,120 --> 00:17:50,000
where there's no pain, where you
can do anything, why would you

303
00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:52,720
stay in reality?
Reality is so messy and

304
00:17:53,120 --> 00:17:55,720
problematic.
So I wonder how you pull those

305
00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:57,360
people out.
I mean, it's interesting that

306
00:17:57,360 --> 00:18:00,080
you talked about a specific case
of psychosis in that regard.

307
00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:02,960
How do you lure them back to
reality?

308
00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:08,520
Well, I think using different
approaches in different

309
00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:12,880
circumstances.
So you know, psychosis is

310
00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:16,000
generally treated using
medication in the hope that the

311
00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:21,040
brain in time will recover its
equilibrium and regain its its

312
00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:23,960
recover its moorings, regain its
links with reality.

313
00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:28,640
The the approach and psychosis
is typically pharmacological,

314
00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:31,640
whereas in PTSD, say post
traumatic stress disorder, where

315
00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:35,560
where people's minds are invaded
by intrusive images, behavioural

316
00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:40,400
approaches can be can be
particularly effective.

317
00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:45,400
If I may just going back a step,
you, you were asking where we'd

318
00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:48,880
be without imagination, and I
think the answer to that

319
00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:51,160
question does depend on which
kind of imagination you have in

320
00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:53,080
mind.
If the question is where would

321
00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:57,240
we be without creativity, I
think the answer is we'd be a

322
00:18:57,240 --> 00:19:00,240
very long way back, couldn't we?
I mean, our whole, our lives

323
00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:05,160
are, are completely soaked
through with culture and culture

324
00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:07,840
is the product of individual
acts of imagination in the sense

325
00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:10,640
of creativity.
They're they're they're, they're

326
00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:15,560
the, our culture is the result
of innumerable small acts of

327
00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:18,080
creation.
Creativity in this sense,

328
00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:20,440
meaning the ability to make
things that are both new and

329
00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:22,600
useful.
So we'd we'd be nowhere really

330
00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:24,960
if we if we liked imagination in
that sense.

331
00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:29,640
The question of what sensory
imagery does for us is a really,

332
00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:31,920
really interesting one, which
we'll perhaps we'll come to.

333
00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:34,000
I think it's, I think it's much
less obvious what sensory

334
00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:37,240
usually does for us than it is
what human creativity does for

335
00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:38,680
us.
Human creativity is really

336
00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:42,160
absolutely fundamental to our to
our lives.

337
00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:47,960
Let's go to sensory experience.
And, you know, you talk about

338
00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:51,880
there's a lot of variation in
our ability to imagine various

339
00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:58,680
senses, whether it's sound or
vision or I met someone at the

340
00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:02,880
conference we were at who has a
very strong mind's touch.

341
00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:07,720
Her dog had passed away and she
was able to kind of imagine her

342
00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:11,960
dog laying on her chest.
She could feel the weight of her

343
00:20:12,120 --> 00:20:13,960
dog.
That's a mind's touch.

344
00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:17,760
Really fascinating you.
You wrote about Mozart and his

345
00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:21,000
mind's ear, which was seemed to
be like off the charts.

346
00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:23,960
You know, he could, he actually
heard concertos in his head and

347
00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:27,000
he would rush to the.
No pad and and have to write

348
00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:30,080
them down.
So talk about, you know, our

349
00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:33,680
ability to imagine sense and the
variation among us.

350
00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:35,840
Yeah.
So I mean this is an invisible

351
00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:38,480
variation.
I think each of us tends to take

352
00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:40,640
his, her, her own experience as
the norm.

353
00:20:41,120 --> 00:20:46,480
So it, it comes, it comes for
example, as a a huge surprise

354
00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:48,840
for many people with athentasia,
many people who lack imagery to

355
00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:52,280
discover that other people
actually enjoy sensory

356
00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:54,440
experience, imaginative sensory
experience.

357
00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:57,520
So typically people that
Fantasia say up to a certain

358
00:20:57,520 --> 00:20:59,760
point, I'd always assume that
talk of the mind's eye was just

359
00:20:59,760 --> 00:21:01,720
a metaphor.
It was just a figure of speech.

360
00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:04,400
And then at a certain moment I
realized, actually people really

361
00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:06,920
are seeing something in their
mind's eye.

362
00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:10,720
We're very visual animals.
So visualization is, is a

363
00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:15,080
particularly dominant, prominent
example of sensory imagery.

364
00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:16,400
But you've mentioned the mind's
ear.

365
00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:21,440
Many, many people enjoy
something like the experience of

366
00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:27,760
hearing in in their mind's ear.
Many of us can imagine the feel

367
00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:31,160
of velvet has against the feel
of satin or of sandpaper.

368
00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:37,200
There are people who appear to
have imagery of smells and

369
00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:39,800
tastes.
I think most of us can imagine

370
00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:42,480
running for a bus, say, so we
have most of us have motor

371
00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:45,280
imagery or kinesthetic imagery.
You know, you can imagine

372
00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:50,640
walking gently down a country
lane as opposed to racing to

373
00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:54,840
catch a train.
We can enjoy multimodal or most

374
00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:57,840
of us can enjoy multimodal
sensory motor experience.

375
00:21:58,360 --> 00:22:01,640
And it turns out, I don't know
whether you want to come on to

376
00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:04,680
this at this point, but it turns
out that what happens in the

377
00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:09,080
brain when we are, for example,
visualizing has quite a lot in

378
00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:11,160
common with what happens in the
brain when we're seeing.

379
00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:17,160
So there is an important sort of
neurological overlap between

380
00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:19,520
perception and imagery, if you
like.

381
00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:22,640
What is happening when we engage
in sensory imagery is that we

382
00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:26,680
run offline the systems in the
brain that we engage online when

383
00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:29,280
we are perceiving, when, when,
when we are sensing.

384
00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:32,680
That the apparent differences
between people's experience in

385
00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:35,240
this regard is not simply a
matter of description.

386
00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:39,040
That it goes deeper than that.
So like in like sports

387
00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:44,960
psychology, like Olympians right
now, skiers are preparing for

388
00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:48,680
their events, right?
So they talk about, you know,

389
00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:51,360
visual as the power of
visualization and running

390
00:22:51,360 --> 00:22:55,320
through the event in your mind's
eye before doing it.

391
00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:58,600
And are are you, are you saying
it's almost like a neurological

392
00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:02,280
match between doing it?
There is there is a neurological

393
00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:04,360
match.
So let me give you a couple of

394
00:23:04,360 --> 00:23:08,480
examples, if you It was a nice
experiment showing that simply

395
00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:14,000
imagining exercising a finger
increased strength over the

396
00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:17,160
course of a few weeks.
It didn't increase muscle, it

397
00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:19,160
increased strength.
So the effect was probably in in

398
00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:21,920
was the effect was in the brain.
Another experiment showed that

399
00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:27,360
getting novice pianists to
practice a particular pattern of

400
00:23:27,360 --> 00:23:33,920
finger movements mentally
enlarged the area of cortex in

401
00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:35,480
which those movements were
represented.

402
00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:39,520
Just as much as actually
practicing for real mental

403
00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:41,120
practice makes a makes a
difference.

404
00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:44,840
I when I was researching this, I
particularly enjoyed, perhaps

405
00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:46,560
because of my medical
background, I particularly

406
00:23:46,560 --> 00:23:51,800
enjoyed an article about
surgeons who It turns out I had

407
00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:53,680
never thought about this, but it
turns out that surgeons very

408
00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:57,960
often plan for and reflect on
their operations and and they do

409
00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:02,120
so using imagery.
They, they kind of re replay

410
00:24:02,120 --> 00:24:04,440
the, the video if you like and
they imagine themselves

411
00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:06,280
performing the operation and
they think, think through what

412
00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:08,280
they're going to have to do and
they, and afterwards they

413
00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:11,200
analyse difficulties they ran
into all mistakes they made

414
00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:15,000
again using using sensorimotor
imagery.

415
00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:18,640
So it's, it's, it's a widely
used form of thought.

416
00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:22,760
Yes, the there is a big overlap
between what happens in the

417
00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:26,680
brain when you're seeing, for
example, or hearing or moving,

418
00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:29,320
and what happens in the brain
when you're imagining seeing or

419
00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:39,920
hearing or moving.
I want to run something by you.

420
00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:43,520
I I instantly knew I wanted to
ask you this question when I saw

421
00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:46,040
it.
So basically Alex Hannell, the

422
00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:49,840
famous free solo climber, he
climbed A skyscraper.

423
00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:53,120
So this, this guy's really
something.

424
00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:58,320
His latest stunt was to climb a
huge skyscraper in Taiwan

425
00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:00,360
without ropes.
It was a live event.

426
00:25:00,360 --> 00:25:02,600
Everyone's wondering is he going
to fall and all that.

427
00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:05,160
But he said something really
fascinating in one of the

428
00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:07,880
interviews.
He said that he the way he

429
00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:11,320
prepares for free solo, like big
free solo events, is that he

430
00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:15,320
actually imagines the fear that
he will experience while he's

431
00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:18,080
climbing without ropes in very
gnarly situations.

432
00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:22,360
And that preempts him when he's
actually in a fearful situation

433
00:25:22,360 --> 00:25:25,800
up there.
So in his mind, he practices,

434
00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:30,720
yes, the physical movements, the
maneuvers, but he also practices

435
00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:34,120
the emotional experiences he
know he will encounter.

436
00:25:34,360 --> 00:25:38,680
And he's that much better able
to handle fear in the moment

437
00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:41,520
when it's actually happening.
So that's a different thing.

438
00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:44,760
That's not playing the piano.
That's like playing out

439
00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:47,440
emotions.
How do you what do you think

440
00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:49,560
about that?
No, that's, that's fascinating.

441
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:51,640
So it sounds as if he's sort of
able to inoculate it or

442
00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:55,960
inoculate himself against the,
the, the emotion to, to some

443
00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:58,120
degree.
I mean, it makes sense.

444
00:25:58,120 --> 00:26:01,920
The, the principle that I've
described applies very widely.

445
00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:04,680
So it applies, for example, to
pain.

446
00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:08,680
So the brain regions engaged by
pain overlap considerably with

447
00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:11,960
the pain regions engaged when
you are looking at somebody in

448
00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:13,760
pain, especially if they're
close to you.

449
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:17,800
So if you look at a loved one in
pain, that will activate areas

450
00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:20,720
that are engaged in the brain
when you are in pain and

451
00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:23,720
imagining pain or remembering
pain can also engage those

452
00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:25,240
areas.
So there was a study showing

453
00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:28,680
that if you looked at brain
activity when somebody was

454
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:30,960
subjected to sort of moderately
painful stimulus, you little

455
00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:34,000
burn on the skin kind of thing
that experimenters use, which is

456
00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:36,160
bearable, but they're distinctly
unpleasant.

457
00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:42,520
Remembering that episode a few
hours later or maybe in the next

458
00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:45,960
day engaged almost exactly the
same set of brain regions as

459
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:49,040
experiencing the pain.
So it's a, it's a general

460
00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:53,560
principle that experiencing,
remembering the experience,

461
00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:55,720
imagining the experience and
watching somebody else

462
00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:57,480
undergoing the experience will
engage.

463
00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:00,720
Certainly a substantially
overlapping set of brain areas.

464
00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:02,520
They're not not identical.
There are differences you'd

465
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:04,720
expect, but there's, there's
substantial overlap.

466
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:08,120
I'll give you another example
and this this is quite old work.

467
00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:11,000
There is a particular brain
region which is strongly engaged

468
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:15,320
by disgust gets engaged if you
if you are disgusted, but

469
00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:17,880
exactly that region gets engaged
if you look at a photograph of

470
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:21,280
somebody with the facial
expression of disgust and if you

471
00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:23,640
imagine disgust.
This is a little bit something I

472
00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:26,560
hadn't thought about, but is
there, does it work with

473
00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:31,120
affection in love?
Like if we like imagine a loved

474
00:27:31,120 --> 00:27:35,480
one versus seeing one in person?
Like is there a neurological

475
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:42,040
signature?
I believe that there is.

476
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:44,800
I'm trying to.
I'm trying to call to mind the

477
00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:48,440
evidence.
I think that Semi Azeki has done

478
00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:52,720
work along these lines, but I
would need to remind myself he's

479
00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:55,040
looked at the neurological
signature of the experience of

480
00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:59,400
beauty and he also looked, I
tried to remember what the

481
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:02,840
details of the experiment in
which he studied romantic

482
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:06,320
partners was.
But I think, I think the broadly

483
00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:09,200
the answer I think is yes was
was the question going in

484
00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:11,840
particular to particular
destination?

485
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:15,360
No, It just reminded me of the
movie.

486
00:28:15,360 --> 00:28:18,560
Contact was one of my favorite
movies based off a Carl Sagan

487
00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:21,120
novel.
And the movie kind of plays with

488
00:28:21,120 --> 00:28:23,600
this idea of like, can you prove
love can?

489
00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:27,640
How do you prove experiences
that aren't quantifiable, that

490
00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:29,280
aren't measurable?
Yeah.

491
00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:34,560
Well, so the the pain work I was
describing certainly speaks to

492
00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:37,840
that.
So you you have a much stronger

493
00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:41,800
neural response to seeing
somebody you love in pain than

494
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:45,120
you do to seeing a stranger.
Just out of curiosity, what is

495
00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:49,240
the brain region that is in
question here?

496
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:53,600
It's a it's a matrix of brain
regions, as it's called, which

497
00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:59,320
includes the amygdala areas in
the cingulate cortex, areas in

498
00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:05,400
the orbital frontal cortex.
It actually maps quite closely

499
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:08,320
onto the the set of brain
regions which is involved in

500
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:13,680
pleasure, essentially the
regions in the in the brainstem

501
00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:17,520
and in the limbic system and in
areas of the frontal cortex.

502
00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:20,320
I wanted to get back to
something that you touched on

503
00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:24,640
earlier about perception and
this phrase of controlled who's

504
00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:29,200
and is a hallucination.
You write about this like very

505
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:33,400
fascinating idea that like maybe
our perception of reality of the

506
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:37,400
world's isn't passive.
We're not just like receiving

507
00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:41,720
data from the world, but we're
in some ways helping to create

508
00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:44,280
it.
I guess my question is like, to

509
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:49,280
what degree are we like truly
objectively sensing what's

510
00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:52,520
outside of US versus creating a
controlled hallucination?

511
00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:55,880
Like how much?
How much of of our perception is

512
00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:59,280
an actual like creative act?
Well, I would say it is.

513
00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:02,720
It is creative act and it may
seem at first sight a kind of

514
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:04,760
outrageous thing to say, but I
think I think there's very

515
00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:10,120
compelling evidence for it and
it's nicely summarized by my

516
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:13,840
friend, colleague Anil Seth, who
says that in some ways

517
00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:17,600
perception is is more inside out
than it is outside in.

518
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:21,080
The evidence for this comes
really from 2 main directions. 1

519
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:25,040
is kind of set of psychological
data and reflections, and the

520
00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:29,320
other more neurological.
In the psychological domain,

521
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:35,200
we've all come across illusions
in which things, when you

522
00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:39,080
measure them, turn out to be
different to the way they seem.

523
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:42,320
So for example, in the book
there's a nice image of my

524
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:44,880
partner in fact running across a
bridge.

525
00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:48,880
There are three images, each of
them is the same size but placed

526
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:50,440
at different points on the
bridge.

527
00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:52,880
And she looks much bigger when
she's further away.

528
00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:56,040
And that's because your mind
makes an unconscious correction

529
00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:57,560
for distance.
You can't overcome it.

530
00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:01,520
When you measure the the image
you find it's the same size but

531
00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:03,360
it but but it looks looks
different.

532
00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:05,720
Another example would be the
NECA cube.

533
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:10,040
So you this is the just a cube
drawn on a piece of paper which

534
00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:13,200
as you look at it changes in
depth and clearly nothing's

535
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:16,080
changing on the page but but
your perception of it is

536
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:18,720
changing.
The man in the moon is another

537
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:20,280
example.
There is no man in the moon, but

538
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:23,720
I can't help finding him there
and then.

539
00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:29,160
As a kind of extreme example, I
think I'd I relate the the story

540
00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:31,800
in the book of an experience I
had as a teenager when I slept

541
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:36,280
in a the garden room One night.
I must have forgotten to close

542
00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:38,080
the curtains and I woke up in
the early hours and there was a

543
00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:40,960
burglar standing at the front of
my bed wearing a striped shirt.

544
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:46,200
And he was so compellingly real
that I shouted at him and within

545
00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:50,080
a couple of seconds he dissolved
into a pattern of light and dark

546
00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:53,680
shining through the slats of the
fence that I was looking,

547
00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:56,120
looking at through the through,
through the windows.

548
00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:58,640
That was an utterly compelling
hallucination.

549
00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:02,520
So a good example of the
generative nature of perception.

550
00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:05,560
So there's that, there's that
set of sort of psychological

551
00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:10,920
observations which takes one to
the conclusion that perception

552
00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:12,480
is generative.
And then there's the the

553
00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:15,200
neurological evidence, which is
in a way may much simpler.

554
00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:17,280
Our brains are constantly at
work.

555
00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:20,200
They're constantly consuming
oxygen and glucose.

556
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:26,240
If they stop, perception stops.
So, so clearly the experience

557
00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:27,560
stops.
Experience, like human

558
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:30,760
experience is entirely dependent
on the, on the metabolic

559
00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:34,360
activity of, of metabolic and
neural activity occurring within

560
00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:37,600
our brains.
So clearly there's, there's some

561
00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:42,080
biological process at work which
is responsible for experience

562
00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:43,840
and, and in particular
perception.

563
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:47,640
So I think there are really
compelling reasons for regarding

564
00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:53,640
our experience as as a
generative creative act of a

565
00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:57,400
biological kind.
When we met, it was 5 or 6 years

566
00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:00,960
ago during a conference that you
helped put together.

567
00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:04,400
I believe it was on the heels of
the research that you had

568
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:09,640
started in 2015 about mental
imagery when you coined the term

569
00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:12,520
a Fantasia lacking a mind's eye.
I was wondering, can you bring

570
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:18,280
us back to that moment in 2015
when you started to study those

571
00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:22,120
like 21 patients who didn't have
a mind's eye and how that

572
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:25,880
snowballed into incredible
amounts of public interest?

573
00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:30,200
And yeah, just talk about mental
imagery and the variation of it,

574
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:34,280
and we can discuss aphantasia
and hyperphantasia as you as you

575
00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:35,840
like.
It may be worth telling the

576
00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:38,360
story from from the beginning,
making a little deech.

577
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:41,960
I first encountered somebody who
couldn't visualize in 2003, I

578
00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:44,840
think, when I was referred to a
patient who had lost the ability

579
00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:47,920
to imagine, which wasn't a
symptom that I'd ever come

580
00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:49,680
across before, and I was
intrigued by it.

581
00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:52,920
He turned out to be very
delightful man, excellent

582
00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:56,160
research participant.
And indeed, it did seem that he

583
00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:59,840
had selectively lost the
capacity to visualize following

584
00:33:59,880 --> 00:34:04,240
a cardiac procedure.
And we did a brain imaging study

585
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:07,360
in which we showed that when he
looked at faces, his brain

586
00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:09,560
activated quite normally.
But when he tried to imagine

587
00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:13,159
them, he failed him to activate
those visual regions that most

588
00:34:13,159 --> 00:34:15,719
people with imagery activate
when they when they visualize.

589
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:18,480
So I thought this was an
interesting case.

590
00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:20,679
We wrote a case report.
I didn't really expect too much

591
00:34:20,679 --> 00:34:23,840
more to come of it.
Story was then picked up by Carl

592
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:26,639
Zimmer, an American science
journalist who wrote an article

593
00:34:26,639 --> 00:34:29,840
in Discover magazine about this
patient.

594
00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:32,880
And then over the course of the
next two or three years, I and

595
00:34:33,679 --> 00:34:38,400
my colleagues were contacted by
21 people who said we're just

596
00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:42,360
like MX, the person described in
this Discover article, except

597
00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:43,840
we've never been able to
visualize.

598
00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:45,719
We've always realized that
there's something a little bit

599
00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:48,040
different about us.
When other people reminisce

600
00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:50,159
about the past, they seem to
have a visual experience of what

601
00:34:50,159 --> 00:34:51,280
they're remembering.
We, we don't.

602
00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:55,080
And these 21 people told quite a
consistent story.

603
00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:58,120
We we sent them a vividness
questionnaire which just

604
00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:01,040
measures how valid your imagery
is, asking people asking you to

605
00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:04,120
visualize 16 scenes, and we
asked them a set of common sense

606
00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:06,440
questions.
And when we came to describe

607
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:09,040
them in a paper in 2015, we
thought that this phenomenon

608
00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:12,320
deserved a name.
Up till then there had been some

609
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:14,760
reports in the neurological
literature, but the terms were

610
00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:18,000
pretty unwieldy, defective
revisualization and visual ear

611
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:19,880
reminiscence.
So we thought we could do better

612
00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:23,160
than that.
I asked a friend who had studied

613
00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:25,800
the Classics and he said why
don't you borrow Aristotle's

614
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:28,720
time for the Mind's Eye, which
is Fantasia, and tag an ale at

615
00:35:28,720 --> 00:35:30,880
the end.
So that was how a Fantasia, the

616
00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:33,720
term a Fantasia was born and it
caught on.

617
00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:36,680
So there was press interest in
it.

618
00:35:37,240 --> 00:35:41,040
I gave a a three or four minute
interview on a breakfast TV

619
00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:42,280
show.
When I came back to my room

620
00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:46,040
there were males coming into my
own inbox faster than I could

621
00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:48,240
count them.
And since then I think I've been

622
00:35:48,240 --> 00:35:52,120
contacted by getting on for
20,000 people mostly describing

623
00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:57,080
aphantasia, so lifelong absence
of imagery, but some describing

624
00:35:57,440 --> 00:35:59,840
imagery as vivid as we're seeing
at the opposite end of the

625
00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:03,560
spectrum.
So hyperphantasia and it's

626
00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:07,240
turned out that these this
contrast is really a really

627
00:36:07,240 --> 00:36:09,840
rather interesting one.
There seems there seems to be a

628
00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:14,040
pattern of associations with
with adventation adventasia.

629
00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:17,040
They're not if you like, they're
not isolated psychological

630
00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:19,240
quirks.
They they seem to travel with a

631
00:36:19,240 --> 00:36:22,840
number of other variations.
I don't think of them as

632
00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:24,520
disorders.
I think of them very much as

633
00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:26,560
intriguing variations in human
experience.

634
00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:28,520
I don't think they're
problematic in themselves.

635
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:31,720
I think that they they carry
with them pros and cons,

636
00:36:31,720 --> 00:36:33,560
strength, advantages and
disadvantages.

637
00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:37,280
How do you account for the
explosion of interest?

638
00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:40,360
It occurred to me at the
conference that we started at

639
00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:43,280
Mental imagery, for sure.
Like, oh, you can't see things

640
00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:47,360
in your mind too interesting.
It always blossom into a bigger

641
00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:50,440
conversation about how we
perceive the world, and I wonder

642
00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:51,760
if that has something to do with
it.

643
00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:54,200
We don't really think about how
other people think.

644
00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:58,080
I think that because we live so
much of A life in our heads, we

645
00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:00,640
are intrigued to discover that
the lives other people leave in

646
00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:02,880
their heads may be very
different to the lives we lead.

647
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:05,720
So I think we're fascinated to
discover that there are there

648
00:37:05,720 --> 00:37:08,240
are these big variations in
experience.

649
00:37:08,720 --> 00:37:13,960
I think people with aphantasia
were pleased that they had a

650
00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:16,560
sort of flag to fly under, a
turn to describe their

651
00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:18,400
experience which had been
lacking until then.

652
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:20,800
And they were, they were glad
that some attention was being

653
00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:24,000
paid to to their experience.
And people with imagery were

654
00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:26,400
intrigued to find that there
were others who lacked it.

655
00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:31,840
It's curious that the topic
hadn't been highlighted sooner.

656
00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:35,680
So Francis Galton, who was a
psychologist working in the 19th

657
00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:38,320
century, was the first person to
try to measure visual imagery.

658
00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:40,600
And he actually recognized that
there were people who seemed to

659
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:42,720
like it.
He said that there were among

660
00:37:42,720 --> 00:37:44,920
his participant, there were
participants.

661
00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:47,400
There were people whose power of
visualization was zero, as he

662
00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:49,080
put it.
And he thought this was more

663
00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:52,040
common among scientists.
But he didn't really pursue the

664
00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:55,040
the observation, and nor did
anybody else.

665
00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:58,240
There was, I think there's just
one, one paper by an American

666
00:37:58,240 --> 00:38:01,320
psychologist who himself lacked
imagery, who sampled imagery and

667
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:03,800
his students sort of over the
intervening centuries.

668
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:07,640
So for some reason it was just a
blind spot in the in, in

669
00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:10,520
psychological research.
There'd been masses of work on

670
00:38:10,520 --> 00:38:13,240
imagery generally, but it had
focused on, if you like, the

671
00:38:13,240 --> 00:38:18,160
typical image and had ignored
the extremes, which which turned

672
00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:21,040
out to be really interesting.
One of the things that

673
00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:25,640
interested me as someone with a
Fantasia was perhaps the

674
00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:31,640
correlation with deficits like
poorer autobiographical memory,

675
00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:37,120
inability to picture lost loved
ones, inability to visualize the

676
00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:41,360
future, whatever you want.
But then there are also where,

677
00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:44,360
like some perceived benefits
worth exploring.

678
00:38:44,720 --> 00:38:50,480
And in your book, you write that
you say, sad as it is to lack

679
00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:54,160
the ability to visualize those
we love, people with aphantasia

680
00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:59,240
seem to move on more easily than
most of us from a breakup or a

681
00:38:59,240 --> 00:39:02,000
bereavement.
Lacking the clamorous impact of

682
00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:04,520
imagery helps them live in the
present.

683
00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:08,120
And Yep, that did hit hit my
personal experience.

684
00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:10,080
And it also was sort of
validating in a way because I

685
00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:13,800
thought of myself potentially as
like less feeling or more on

686
00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:16,440
feeling than others.
But it was correlated with my

687
00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:19,200
inability to picture these
things that to picture the

688
00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:22,440
traumatic imagery, it didn't
catch me and then therefore it

689
00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:25,320
didn't hold as much and it
lessened the emotional impact.

690
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:28,720
So I wonder, how have you been
thinking about the the pros and

691
00:39:28,720 --> 00:39:30,880
cons, the benefits and drawbacks
of imagery?

692
00:39:31,240 --> 00:39:32,400
Yeah.
And just to echo what you say,

693
00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:34,760
many people at Fantasia have
told me that they've, they've

694
00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:37,440
been worried at times that
they're cold because they, they

695
00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:41,680
don't seem to be as troubled as
their friends and relations by,

696
00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:44,600
by break up, moving on to
bereavement, say.

697
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:48,160
But but then they, they come to
the conclusion that it does

698
00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:50,240
relate to the lack of imagery.
Imagery.

699
00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:52,560
Imagery has been described as an
emotional amplifier.

700
00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:56,040
And if you, if you like that
amplification, it's, it's going

701
00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:59,480
to have an impact on your
emotional experience and

702
00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:02,880
responses.
So, so yeah, I think one of the

703
00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:05,200
pluses that I had tased you
probably is what you might call

704
00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:08,880
presentness the the ability to
to, to live a little more in the

705
00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:11,680
here and now then.
Those of us who are being

706
00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:15,840
distracted by regrets about the
future or longings for sorry,

707
00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:18,800
regrets about the past or or or
or or longings for events in the

708
00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:21,160
future.
This is still a work in

709
00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:23,720
progress.
But it does look as if having a

710
00:40:23,720 --> 00:40:27,240
Fantasia nudges people towards
working in STEM professions,

711
00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:36,280
science, maths, IT, technology.
And that makes a kind of sense

712
00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:38,760
because I think other things
being equal, people that

713
00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:43,120
Fantasia have a more abstract
take on on the world, if you

714
00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:45,960
like.
Craig Venter is an example.

715
00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:48,840
He's a very celebrated American
scientist, first person to

716
00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:52,160
decode the genome and I think to
create artificial life.

717
00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:53,640
And he got in touch not long
after.

718
00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:56,720
The time at Fantasia was kind
and said, I've known this about

719
00:40:56,720 --> 00:40:59,240
myself for a long time and I'd
always assumed that it was a

720
00:40:59,240 --> 00:41:01,600
help to me in my scientific work
not to have my head cluttered

721
00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:05,480
with images.
I guess those are probably the

722
00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:08,760
two of the principal advantages
and, and together with

723
00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:13,600
presentness may come some
protection from psychological

724
00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:17,600
difficulties which are fuelled
or fed by imagery like PTSD for

725
00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:20,080
example, and you know, possibly
psychosis.

726
00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:22,000
I think that that again needs a
lot more work.

727
00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:25,400
Whether whether maybe imagery is
a risk factor for psychosis is

728
00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:28,120
is uncertain, but there is a
little bit of evidence that it

729
00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:32,080
that it is.
Yeah, I, I sometimes think of

730
00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:35,840
this in the context of PTSD.
And if I were to be sort of

731
00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:41,960
intercepted by a involuntary
image or thought of a traumatic

732
00:41:41,960 --> 00:41:44,680
experience, it would be just
that, a thought.

733
00:41:44,720 --> 00:41:49,440
It would be imageless yet.
And if it were not, if it were,

734
00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:53,640
if all of a sudden something
troubling ripped into my head,

735
00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:58,840
it would be way more powerful.
And so I think that people with

736
00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:03,400
aphantasia may have some sort of
vaccination against ETSD.

737
00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:07,520
But there's always the flip side
too, because I've heard one

738
00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:10,720
friend said they comfort
themselves often by imagining

739
00:42:10,720 --> 00:42:13,440
someone who's not there.
They can put themselves back in

740
00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:16,600
into a positive experience in
life, somewhere they traveled.

741
00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:19,160
They can hang out with old
friends during like the golden

742
00:42:19,160 --> 00:42:22,160
age of college or something.
And this is a source of comfort,

743
00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:26,000
actual comfort.
So yeah, while I won't be

744
00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:29,480
burdened by traumatic images, I
also can't comfort myself and

745
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:32,520
get that emotional payouts.
There's definitely interesting

746
00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:35,560
implications of the spectrum.
No, that's, that's absolutely

747
00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:37,240
right.
And I guess another

748
00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:39,920
consideration here is that you,
some people when they first

749
00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:43,320
encounter the idea of Fantasia
are really puzzled and they,

750
00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:46,400
they ask how, how can people
think or remember anything

751
00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:49,040
without imagery?
And actually, Aristotle wrote,

752
00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:51,240
the mind never thinks without a
phantasm.

753
00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:53,840
But it's, you know, people with
that Fantasia really get along

754
00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:56,800
very well.
In our small, a small study we

755
00:42:56,800 --> 00:43:00,080
did quite early on where we
compared a group of about 25

756
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:03,200
people that Fantasia 25 with
hyperphantasia and 25 with

757
00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:06,880
average imagery IQ was actually
slightly but significantly

758
00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:09,360
higher in the athantasia group.
So I don't know that that

759
00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:12,680
necessarily holds out with huge
samples, but it but it just

760
00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:15,520
makes the point that certainly
it's not an intellectual

761
00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:18,520
disadvantage.
And one fact that is now

762
00:43:18,520 --> 00:43:21,000
abundantly clear is that
athantasia doesn't preclude

763
00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:24,320
imagination in the broad sense.
So there are many examples of

764
00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:28,320
authentic people who are highly
imaginative, creative,

765
00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:30,040
productive.
You're a novelist.

766
00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:34,000
I've mentioned Craig Venter, Ed
Katmal, past president of Pixar,

767
00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:37,200
Disney, winner of the touring
prize, Blake Ross, creator of

768
00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:39,160
Firefox, Mozilla.
So people created in a whole

769
00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:42,840
variety of of areas.
And 11 nice surprise in our

770
00:43:42,840 --> 00:43:46,240
research was that we were
contacted by a large number of

771
00:43:46,240 --> 00:43:49,200
authentic artists.
So actually, I think we went to

772
00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:52,680
art school, you would find that
on average the imagery vividness

773
00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:54,560
is a bit higher than usual.
So.

774
00:43:54,600 --> 00:43:58,920
So I think having vivid imagery
does predispose you to to

775
00:43:59,320 --> 00:44:03,280
traditionally creative
activities, but lacking imagery

776
00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:06,560
certainly doesn't prevent you
from pursuing a career in them.

777
00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:10,120
Yeah, I always say that I
figured out how to write without

778
00:44:10,120 --> 00:44:12,880
a mind's eye.
And when I realized I I had

779
00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:18,120
something to call that now I
could still write because, you

780
00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:23,240
know, there's such a bias to
mental imagery, particularly in

781
00:44:23,240 --> 00:44:25,720
the narrative arts.
You know, there's just the bias

782
00:44:25,720 --> 00:44:27,880
that people think that you have
to see the scene before you

783
00:44:27,880 --> 00:44:30,600
write it.
You're just like transcribing

784
00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:32,760
some mental image you've already
worked out.

785
00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:35,640
But it's really not bad.
In my case, I can't.

786
00:44:35,640 --> 00:44:39,800
So I may have a concept of a
scene, you know, 2 and these two

787
00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:41,720
people will be in it.
They'll be saying these things.

788
00:44:42,080 --> 00:44:47,080
And then what I can do is I can
arrange the telling details in

789
00:44:47,080 --> 00:44:50,560
such a way that I know it will
manufacture a visual image in

790
00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:52,400
your mind.
So it's like, I don't have to

791
00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:56,680
see it to get you to see it.
I think and imagine just fine

792
00:44:56,680 --> 00:45:00,440
without the mental imagery, but
it's taking a long time for

793
00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:03,240
people to understand that.
That has to be exactly right,

794
00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:07,200
but I think conversely, people
who do have imagery probably do

795
00:45:07,560 --> 00:45:10,400
do kind of do use it creatively.
They do.

796
00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:14,200
And I'm aware of all the writers
I know actually are pretty high

797
00:45:14,320 --> 00:45:18,120
on the imagery scale and they
see it at, they see it first.

798
00:45:19,040 --> 00:45:20,800
So, and I think, wow, that
that'd be nice.

799
00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:25,680
You know, it'd be nice to see it
first because I think really I'm

800
00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:28,840
sort of manufacturing it in a
way.

801
00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:31,800
But I figured it out.
At our conference, there was a

802
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:36,400
visual artist, and he was so
troubled by this realization

803
00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:38,920
that he didn't have a mind's eye
that he said he was giving up

804
00:45:38,920 --> 00:45:41,040
art.
And I found that really, you

805
00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:45,840
know, tragic in a way because,
you know, you can still make art

806
00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:48,000
without it.
Like, now it would have been

807
00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:50,000
better for him to have never
learned of this at all.

808
00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:53,080
It seems it, it very much
occurred to me that we could

809
00:45:53,120 --> 00:45:56,320
have talked about mental imagery
for like, 90 minutes.

810
00:45:56,520 --> 00:45:58,920
But this book is about
imagination.

811
00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:02,480
Another big part of your book is
imagination in the context of

812
00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:04,200
creativity.
The way we traditionally think

813
00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:07,200
about it, imagination is like
the creative act.

814
00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:11,520
And I kind of wanted to talk
about some of the things you

815
00:46:11,520 --> 00:46:16,240
touched on, one of which is
maybe like personality traits

816
00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:19,840
that lead to creative thought,
one of which is openness to

817
00:46:19,840 --> 00:46:22,000
experience.
The part of the Big 5.

818
00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:27,320
I wonder if you can talk about
how that you know tendency leads

819
00:46:27,320 --> 00:46:31,680
to more creative creative work.
How does how does that interplay

820
00:46:31,680 --> 00:46:33,920
happen?
So openness is rather difficult

821
00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:36,200
to to define, isn't it?
It seems to be a kind of amount

822
00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:43,800
of intelligence and openness in
the sense of attentiveness to

823
00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:47,760
1's own experience and and a
willingness to undergo new

824
00:46:47,760 --> 00:46:53,240
experiences and and explore new
territory of of every kind.

825
00:46:53,800 --> 00:46:56,800
And certainly that kind of
openness does seem to be

826
00:46:56,960 --> 00:47:01,640
important in the creative
process because good ideas often

827
00:47:01,640 --> 00:47:03,720
come to people from unexpected
places.

828
00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:08,120
I have a little mnemonic for the
psychological capacities which I

829
00:47:08,120 --> 00:47:10,800
think underpin creativity in the
book, which is skids.

830
00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:14,680
So the first 3 letters ski stand
for skills.

831
00:47:14,680 --> 00:47:17,160
So I think there are very, very
few, if any human creative

832
00:47:17,160 --> 00:47:21,200
achievements which don't
presuppose considerable skill in

833
00:47:21,200 --> 00:47:25,920
a particular domain.
Next D detect D for detachment,

834
00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:29,760
which is really a meld of the
ability to control our thoughts

835
00:47:29,760 --> 00:47:34,520
and behaviour and our ability to
detach ourselves from from the

836
00:47:34,520 --> 00:47:37,400
world by using symbolic
technologies of various kinds.

837
00:47:37,920 --> 00:47:42,720
But then the final S in skid
stands for spontaneity, and

838
00:47:42,720 --> 00:47:47,080
there is a kind of wild card in
creativity which plays into

839
00:47:47,080 --> 00:47:49,120
openness.
We have to be open to to take

840
00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:51,920
advantage of this.
Many, many creative people

841
00:47:52,520 --> 00:47:57,320
describe their creative ideas,
sometimes in their entirety

842
00:47:57,520 --> 00:48:01,680
themes from musical composition
just arriving in in their in

843
00:48:01,680 --> 00:48:03,600
their minds.
And they clearly don't arrive

844
00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:06,040
from nowhere.
But they aren't the outcome of

845
00:48:06,040 --> 00:48:09,200
the kind of deliberate,
controlled, voluntary process.

846
00:48:09,760 --> 00:48:12,200
And one of the reasons I wanted
to write this book is that I

847
00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:15,800
think we understand something,
though, from neuroscience of

848
00:48:16,520 --> 00:48:20,880
what it is that makes possible
these creative moments, these

849
00:48:20,880 --> 00:48:26,200
moments of spontaneous creation,
when when an idea appears in in

850
00:48:26,200 --> 00:48:30,320
someone's mind.
I won't give you examples of

851
00:48:31,960 --> 00:48:33,440
spontaneous creativity of this
kind.

852
00:48:33,440 --> 00:48:35,040
You there are many to be found
in the book, but I'll say a

853
00:48:35,040 --> 00:48:37,040
little perhaps about the unless
you'd like me to, but I'll say a

854
00:48:37,040 --> 00:48:38,920
little about the, about the
neuroscience.

855
00:48:39,080 --> 00:48:43,440
Probably the the area which is
most relevant and least well

856
00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:46,600
known is the, the study of the
resting brain, which has been a

857
00:48:46,600 --> 00:48:49,160
really fascinating area of
neuroscience over the last

858
00:48:49,160 --> 00:48:52,520
couple of decades.
So for a long time when people

859
00:48:52,520 --> 00:48:55,520
performed brain imaging studies
to see what, what what happens

860
00:48:55,520 --> 00:48:59,080
in the brain when people are are
thinking, if you like, they

861
00:48:59,080 --> 00:49:01,280
would compare one condition with
another.

862
00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:04,400
So what's different between
reading a word and looking at a

863
00:49:04,400 --> 00:49:06,920
number?
Over the last 20 years there has

864
00:49:07,200 --> 00:49:10,320
grown an interest in what
happens in the brain at rest.

865
00:49:10,320 --> 00:49:13,280
And it turns out that if you if
somebody simply lies in a brain

866
00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:18,040
scanner, you can detect activity
within all the networks of the

867
00:49:18,320 --> 00:49:20,920
active brain.
So for example, there's a set of

868
00:49:20,920 --> 00:49:23,800
real visual regions of the back
of the brain in which all the

869
00:49:23,800 --> 00:49:26,120
areas talk to one another.
Their activity is synchronized

870
00:49:26,120 --> 00:49:27,560
within the mass as you'd expect
really.

871
00:49:27,920 --> 00:49:30,600
There's a set of motor areas
which contain control movement.

872
00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:33,720
And again, even when my lying
still, there's activity within

873
00:49:33,720 --> 00:49:36,160
these areas, they're into
communicating.

874
00:49:36,160 --> 00:49:41,800
A particularly fascinating set
of areas came to light about 20

875
00:49:41,800 --> 00:49:44,600
years ago, which has been called
the default mode network because

876
00:49:44,600 --> 00:49:47,480
it's actually the set of areas
which is most active in the

877
00:49:47,480 --> 00:49:50,160
resting brain.
It turns out that when you

878
00:49:50,680 --> 00:49:54,960
examine the function of this
network, it is particularly

879
00:49:54,960 --> 00:49:57,840
active in circumstances in which
people are remembering the past,

880
00:49:57,840 --> 00:50:01,520
anticipating the future,
thinking about other minds, so

881
00:50:01,520 --> 00:50:04,360
thinking about other people's
thoughts and thinking about

882
00:50:04,360 --> 00:50:07,160
moral decisions.
So just the kinds of things we

883
00:50:07,160 --> 00:50:09,400
do when we are daydreaming
really, you know, you'll you'll

884
00:50:09,400 --> 00:50:11,640
think about something you
enjoyed yesterday or someone who

885
00:50:11,640 --> 00:50:15,200
offended you yesterday or some
slightly problematic decision

886
00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:16,360
about what you're going to do
tomorrow.

887
00:50:16,720 --> 00:50:21,400
So this is the set of areas
that's most active at rest in

888
00:50:21,400 --> 00:50:25,600
the brain set of set of regions
which seems to be involved in,

889
00:50:26,440 --> 00:50:30,560
if you like in, in daydreaming.
And it turns out that when

890
00:50:30,560 --> 00:50:33,280
people are actually performing
creative acts, when they're

891
00:50:33,280 --> 00:50:37,800
engaged in creative activities,
this network is, is active

892
00:50:37,800 --> 00:50:42,640
because I think one has to kind
of dip down into the, into one's

893
00:50:43,120 --> 00:50:48,080
past one's, one's memories to
generate creative ideas for the

894
00:50:48,080 --> 00:50:49,760
future.
And the default by network is

895
00:50:49,760 --> 00:50:52,800
very much involved in, in
recollecting the past.

896
00:50:53,200 --> 00:50:57,080
But this default by network
during creative acts is in an

897
00:50:57,280 --> 00:51:01,960
unusually harmonious
relationship to an executive

898
00:51:01,960 --> 00:51:05,760
network, a set of regions which
tends to switch on when the

899
00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:07,280
default node network switches
off.

900
00:51:07,280 --> 00:51:10,720
So if I give you a task like
telling me as many words with

901
00:51:10,720 --> 00:51:13,800
the letter P as you can in the
next minute, that will engage

902
00:51:13,800 --> 00:51:16,720
your default mode, your engage
your executive network, switch

903
00:51:16,720 --> 00:51:19,120
off your default mode network.
So normally they are anti

904
00:51:19,120 --> 00:51:23,120
correlated, but in creative acts
they are in a a more harmonious

905
00:51:23,120 --> 00:51:25,840
than usual relationship and they
are also interacting with a

906
00:51:25,840 --> 00:51:28,440
network that's been called the
salience network, which is

907
00:51:28,440 --> 00:51:31,880
involved in attributing
importance in attributing value

908
00:51:32,160 --> 00:51:36,200
to to things in the world and to
our own pursuits.

909
00:51:36,760 --> 00:51:43,080
So these networks are all at
work in the resting brain.

910
00:51:43,360 --> 00:51:46,080
They are in a kind of harmonious
relationship during creative

911
00:51:46,080 --> 00:51:48,680
acts.
And I think understanding this

912
00:51:49,160 --> 00:51:54,800
autonomous dynamic activity
within the brain gives us a much

913
00:51:54,800 --> 00:51:58,360
better understanding of the
spontaneous processes which are

914
00:51:58,360 --> 00:52:02,040
involved in creativity than we
than we had before when the

915
00:52:02,040 --> 00:52:04,880
brain was regarded as really a
reactive organ.

916
00:52:05,640 --> 00:52:08,480
And the the most common analogy
was with a computer.

917
00:52:09,200 --> 00:52:13,640
We now have an understanding of
it has a highly dynamic living

918
00:52:14,280 --> 00:52:21,800
Organism, if you like, or organ
which spontaneous activity of

919
00:52:21,800 --> 00:52:25,600
the kind that underpins
creativity is quite occurs quite

920
00:52:25,600 --> 00:52:28,560
naturally.
Another example which I discuss

921
00:52:28,560 --> 00:52:30,440
in the book is the phenomenon of
replay.

922
00:52:31,240 --> 00:52:34,320
Turns out that if you explore a
new environment, cells will

923
00:52:34,320 --> 00:52:36,600
become active in your
hippocampus as you explore the

924
00:52:36,600 --> 00:52:38,080
environments.
The campus is a region in the

925
00:52:38,080 --> 00:52:40,400
temporal lobes which contains a
kind of spatial map of the

926
00:52:40,400 --> 00:52:43,040
environment.
That's interesting that there

927
00:52:43,040 --> 00:52:45,720
should be such a spatial map,
but what's really fascinating is

928
00:52:45,720 --> 00:52:51,600
that after you've explored at
times of rest or during sleep,

929
00:52:52,000 --> 00:52:56,240
the cells which became active
during exploration replay your

930
00:52:56,920 --> 00:53:00,720
your journey, replay the the
pathway, if you like, which you

931
00:53:00,960 --> 00:53:03,480
took through the new
environment, both forwards and

932
00:53:03,480 --> 00:53:06,440
backwards, as if you were
learning how to how to escape

933
00:53:07,040 --> 00:53:08,440
from the destination, so to
speak.

934
00:53:08,840 --> 00:53:12,680
There's evidence even that the
order in which the the cells

935
00:53:12,680 --> 00:53:17,200
become active can be reorganized
spontaneously, as if the brain

936
00:53:17,200 --> 00:53:20,720
were trying to make better sense
of what you'd experienced.

937
00:53:20,960 --> 00:53:24,040
So here is here's another
example of spontaneous activity

938
00:53:24,040 --> 00:53:27,480
within the brain, which is
probably mostly, if not entirely

939
00:53:27,480 --> 00:53:30,800
unconscious, but which is
important, probably plays a

940
00:53:30,800 --> 00:53:32,600
particular role in consolidating
memories.

941
00:53:32,920 --> 00:53:36,240
But it's just the kind of
spontaneous activity which one

942
00:53:36,560 --> 00:53:40,680
can imagine might give rise to
the ideas which people make use

943
00:53:40,680 --> 00:53:52,730
of in in creative work.
I'm working on a short story.

944
00:53:53,090 --> 00:53:55,370
There's, there's really two
processes that I'm always

945
00:53:55,370 --> 00:53:59,600
toggling back and forth within
my brain, which is, you know,

946
00:53:59,600 --> 00:54:02,640
the default mode network and
the, the executive functioning.

947
00:54:02,640 --> 00:54:05,920
So the executive prefrontal
cortex work is like, you know,

948
00:54:05,920 --> 00:54:09,840
at the computer willfully moving
things around and banging things

949
00:54:09,840 --> 00:54:12,480
out and solving problems
essentially.

950
00:54:12,680 --> 00:54:15,560
But then it's, you know, you
hit, you hit an impasse, you

951
00:54:15,560 --> 00:54:18,400
don't know where you're going
and, and you just back off and

952
00:54:18,400 --> 00:54:22,280
you go for a walk or have a
shower or just live your life.

953
00:54:22,320 --> 00:54:25,640
And that's when the more
unconscious process sees the

954
00:54:25,640 --> 00:54:27,920
default mode network.
That's when it starts to kick

955
00:54:27,920 --> 00:54:31,320
off things, connections,
patterns, and you just write

956
00:54:31,320 --> 00:54:35,840
them down and then you go back
to the computer for work work.

957
00:54:36,440 --> 00:54:40,320
Something about the creative
life is developing like a

958
00:54:40,320 --> 00:54:43,800
facility with the that toggling
back and forth, being

959
00:54:43,800 --> 00:54:49,640
comfortable with it and kind of
knowing that if you are stuck,

960
00:54:49,680 --> 00:54:52,400
just throw it to your
unconscious, you know, and it'll

961
00:54:52,400 --> 00:54:54,480
work itself out and being able
to work.

962
00:54:54,520 --> 00:54:57,120
You talked about working with
uncertainty a lot too, and, and

963
00:54:57,120 --> 00:55:01,120
the John Keats's negative
capability, that that's a big

964
00:55:01,120 --> 00:55:02,120
part of it too.
Yeah.

965
00:55:02,280 --> 00:55:05,520
I had a lovely interview with
the musician David Gray, which I

966
00:55:05,520 --> 00:55:08,040
talk about in the book.
And he he says that when he's in

967
00:55:08,040 --> 00:55:12,280
a particularly creative phase,
he has the sense that his mind

968
00:55:12,280 --> 00:55:16,720
is both more objective and more
subjective simultaneously than

969
00:55:16,720 --> 00:55:18,320
it normally is.
And I think, I think he's

970
00:55:18,760 --> 00:55:20,720
talking about just what you
describe.

971
00:55:21,600 --> 00:55:23,560
There can be kind of alternation
between those two states, but

972
00:55:23,560 --> 00:55:26,080
there are times on there where
where you're in, you're in both

973
00:55:26,080 --> 00:55:28,800
kind of drawing from from the
depths and but you're also

974
00:55:29,760 --> 00:55:31,320
controlling from above.
Right.

975
00:55:31,320 --> 00:55:33,480
And you kind of know when to
turn those on and off.

976
00:55:33,480 --> 00:55:38,720
You know, being a creative
person is being receptive, but

977
00:55:38,720 --> 00:55:42,480
also willful, going back and
forth, you know, and knowing the

978
00:55:42,480 --> 00:55:46,760
kind of limits of both the other
the I feel like, you know, if

979
00:55:46,760 --> 00:55:49,680
your next book's going to be a
Fantasia, you got to write

980
00:55:49,680 --> 00:55:51,320
about, write a book on
creativity.

981
00:55:51,880 --> 00:55:54,200
You know, I think that would be
fascinating.

982
00:55:54,200 --> 00:55:56,640
And it always does.
Well, any book on creativity

983
00:55:56,640 --> 00:55:59,200
does extremely well with the
business community with, you

984
00:55:59,200 --> 00:56:03,840
know, there's a lot in this in
your book too, about like an

985
00:56:03,840 --> 00:56:06,000
appreciation for art and artist
work.

986
00:56:06,000 --> 00:56:10,040
And you you taught, you said the
task of art is to kind of evoke

987
00:56:10,040 --> 00:56:12,360
the living texture of
experience, which I thought was

988
00:56:12,360 --> 00:56:16,520
really interesting.
You met with a writer, Philip

989
00:56:16,520 --> 00:56:19,720
Pullman, and you talked you
visit his home and talked about

990
00:56:19,720 --> 00:56:23,160
his writing process.
And I want to just read this

991
00:56:23,760 --> 00:56:27,760
this short portion here where
you got some insights into his

992
00:56:27,760 --> 00:56:30,160
process.
He said, he told me, that he

993
00:56:30,160 --> 00:56:34,440
rarely needs to stop and think,
entering A mild dissociative

994
00:56:34,440 --> 00:56:36,480
state during his productive
hours.

995
00:56:36,720 --> 00:56:39,920
He plans only minimally.
He attributes this to like

996
00:56:39,920 --> 00:56:44,280
lifelong cultivation of the part
of the brain that asks what if?

997
00:56:44,640 --> 00:56:47,360
All of us ask this question once
in a while.

998
00:56:47,360 --> 00:56:50,840
But like Philip Pullman, Sandy,
another character you talked

999
00:56:50,840 --> 00:56:54,600
about, believes that his well
trained subconscious is

1000
00:56:54,600 --> 00:56:59,160
constantly exploring narratives.
When he writes this subliminal

1001
00:56:59,160 --> 00:57:02,280
process finds its voice.
It's interesting.

1002
00:57:02,400 --> 00:57:04,760
There's so much to say there.
I think that training is

1003
00:57:04,760 --> 00:57:06,840
crucial, isn't it?
I mean, I think there's no

1004
00:57:07,120 --> 00:57:11,000
discovery favours the prepared
mind as, as I think Pastor said,

1005
00:57:11,000 --> 00:57:13,480
Hugh, there's a lot of prep, a
lot of training, a lot of

1006
00:57:13,480 --> 00:57:15,720
preparation has to has to have
happened in the background.

1007
00:57:16,280 --> 00:57:18,280
But once it's happened, yes,
then then there's the

1008
00:57:18,280 --> 00:57:21,680
spontaneous unconscious
processes are are key.

1009
00:57:21,760 --> 00:57:24,360
Yeah, and it's something they
don't teach you in MFA programs

1010
00:57:24,360 --> 00:57:26,520
too, but you can learn craft.
That's great.

1011
00:57:26,760 --> 00:57:30,320
You need to know it, but how to
actually create is another thing

1012
00:57:30,320 --> 00:57:31,600
that you have to get on your
own.

1013
00:57:31,600 --> 00:57:32,400
I.
Don't know if you're a Philip

1014
00:57:32,400 --> 00:57:35,480
Pullman fan, but those those who
have read the Northern Lights

1015
00:57:35,480 --> 00:57:39,440
will know that one of the heroes
of the book, Lyra, has a strange

1016
00:57:39,440 --> 00:57:43,560
instrument instrument called the
alatheometer she uses to.

1017
00:57:44,360 --> 00:57:47,560
I can't, I forget whether to see
future events or to see distant

1018
00:57:47,560 --> 00:57:48,760
events.
But so there's a kind of

1019
00:57:49,600 --> 00:57:51,600
precognitive telepathic
function.

1020
00:57:52,240 --> 00:57:57,120
And the allythometer can only be
used when you're in a certain

1021
00:57:58,040 --> 00:58:00,720
state of mind.
You have to, you have to clear

1022
00:58:00,720 --> 00:58:04,080
your mind to make it possible
to, to use this instrument.

1023
00:58:04,080 --> 00:58:06,480
And I, I think this is, it's,
it's just a metaphor for the

1024
00:58:06,480 --> 00:58:09,360
imagination.
Your book is so comprehensive.

1025
00:58:09,400 --> 00:58:12,880
One of the things I want to talk
about is, you know, mental

1026
00:58:13,080 --> 00:58:15,160
disorders in the context of
imagination.

1027
00:58:15,360 --> 00:58:21,480
So really fascinating aspect of
your exploration where you talk

1028
00:58:21,480 --> 00:58:26,320
about the placebo effect, you
talk about hysterical symptoms,

1029
00:58:26,520 --> 00:58:30,600
psychosomatic disorders, really
nice science writing.

1030
00:58:30,600 --> 00:58:34,080
You weave in stories of of
patients and and research and

1031
00:58:34,080 --> 00:58:35,880
bring it to life.
And I want to talk about

1032
00:58:35,880 --> 00:58:38,640
hysteria first.
This is something that's always

1033
00:58:38,640 --> 00:58:41,880
fascinated me, even myself.
I've had what you could call

1034
00:58:41,880 --> 00:58:47,080
psychosomatic symptoms.
Talk a little bit about how

1035
00:58:48,160 --> 00:58:54,120
these how psychosomatic symptoms
or hysterical symptoms when

1036
00:58:54,120 --> 00:58:57,760
they're not a neurological
illness, How is it, how is it

1037
00:58:57,760 --> 00:58:59,480
happening?
What is the What is the

1038
00:58:59,480 --> 00:59:02,240
mechanism of hysterical
blindness?

1039
00:59:02,240 --> 00:59:04,760
Or yeah.
This is a really common

1040
00:59:06,640 --> 00:59:10,440
phenomenon for neurologists, in
fact for doctors working in all

1041
00:59:10,440 --> 00:59:12,440
areas of medicine, but but it's
certainly very common for

1042
00:59:12,440 --> 00:59:15,360
neurologists.
So getting on for 1/3 of what we

1043
00:59:15,360 --> 00:59:19,240
see in clinic and and in the
emergency room turns out not to

1044
00:59:19,240 --> 00:59:23,840
be explained by disease, but to
have a broadly psychological

1045
00:59:23,840 --> 00:59:27,240
explanation.
And many cases will will fit

1046
00:59:27,240 --> 00:59:29,760
within the the remit of what
used to be called hysteria.

1047
00:59:29,760 --> 00:59:32,960
That's that's become a somewhat
pejorative term and the

1048
00:59:32,960 --> 00:59:35,000
politically correct time is now
functional neurological

1049
00:59:35,000 --> 00:59:37,760
disorder, which has its
advantages and disadvantages.

1050
00:59:38,720 --> 00:59:43,880
But to give a specific example,
somebody who appears to be

1051
00:59:43,880 --> 00:59:47,560
having a an epileptic fit who
may even be admitted to hospital

1052
00:59:47,560 --> 00:59:50,680
because the the initial
impression has been of of a

1053
00:59:50,680 --> 00:59:54,760
prolonged seizure may turn out
not not to be, but to be having

1054
00:59:54,760 --> 00:59:57,800
what's called a dissociative
attack or what is a psychogenic

1055
00:59:57,800 --> 01:00:00,280
seizure.
An attack which looks looks very

1056
01:00:00,280 --> 01:00:03,680
like an epileptic seizure but
but simply isn't when you record

1057
01:00:03,680 --> 01:00:07,040
brain activity you don't see.
The the signature of epilepsy,

1058
01:00:07,040 --> 01:00:10,240
you see essentially normal,
normal wakeful activity.

1059
01:00:11,280 --> 01:00:14,680
I describe in the in the book a
patient I encountered when I was

1060
01:00:14,680 --> 01:00:19,840
a young urologist who had a
disabling spasm in in one leg,

1061
01:00:20,240 --> 01:00:23,040
which one of my senior
colleagues then induced by

1062
01:00:23,040 --> 01:00:25,480
rubbing one shoulder and
relieved by rubbing the opposite

1063
01:00:25,480 --> 01:00:28,280
shoulder.
So often suggestion is quite

1064
01:00:28,280 --> 01:00:30,880
powerful in the, in the context
of, of these disorders, but

1065
01:00:30,880 --> 01:00:34,560
they're, they're common, they're
often disabling and they are

1066
01:00:34,880 --> 01:00:38,840
really rather mysterious and
they, they often excite strong

1067
01:00:38,840 --> 01:00:44,280
emotions in doctors.
So when doctors discover that

1068
01:00:44,280 --> 01:00:47,480
there actually isn't an
underlying disease, the response

1069
01:00:47,480 --> 01:00:52,240
can be one of, of indignation.
There is a risk and it's a risk

1070
01:00:52,240 --> 01:00:55,160
that has to be avoided at all
costs really, of blaming people

1071
01:00:55,160 --> 01:00:59,040
for having such disorders
because all the current evidence

1072
01:00:59,040 --> 01:01:01,320
suggests that people are not
aware that they are

1073
01:01:02,040 --> 01:01:03,680
manufacturing them.
They're not aware that they're

1074
01:01:04,040 --> 01:01:06,880
putting anything on, though it
is rather as if they were.

1075
01:01:07,840 --> 01:01:10,320
So that's so they're, they're a
puzzle, these disorders.

1076
01:01:10,320 --> 01:01:14,080
And in the book I suggest that
that three key elements are

1077
01:01:14,080 --> 01:01:17,240
involved and the third of them
is relevant to imagination.

1078
01:01:17,480 --> 01:01:20,200
So first of all is often a
disturbance of attention.

1079
01:01:20,760 --> 01:01:26,200
So if you focus your attention
very intensely on any normal

1080
01:01:26,200 --> 01:01:28,400
activity, it's quite likely to
go wrong.

1081
01:01:29,720 --> 01:01:33,600
If you try to remember how to
walk and, and focus very

1082
01:01:33,600 --> 01:01:36,600
intensely on your walking as
you're walking, it'll trip you

1083
01:01:36,640 --> 01:01:38,920
up.
It's, it's, there are all kinds

1084
01:01:38,920 --> 01:01:41,160
of things that we do very
successfully automatically that

1085
01:01:41,160 --> 01:01:43,960
we find really rather hard to do
when we focus our attention on

1086
01:01:43,960 --> 01:01:45,920
them.
So one of the sources of

1087
01:01:46,560 --> 01:01:50,400
psychosomatic symptoms seems to
be excessive attention to a

1088
01:01:50,400 --> 01:01:54,680
process that that that happens
perfectly satisfactorily until

1089
01:01:54,680 --> 01:01:56,880
we start paying attention.
There's often a kind of

1090
01:01:56,880 --> 01:02:00,760
emotional components.
So many people who develop such

1091
01:02:00,760 --> 01:02:04,680
problems have a background of
anxiety or depression or trauma.

1092
01:02:05,720 --> 01:02:10,120
Sexual abuse has classically
been one of the sources of

1093
01:02:10,120 --> 01:02:12,320
hysteria and functional
neurological disorder.

1094
01:02:12,320 --> 01:02:14,880
And indeed that that, that that
is the case.

1095
01:02:14,880 --> 01:02:17,280
It's not by any means universal,
but it's but it's certainly in

1096
01:02:17,280 --> 01:02:19,960
the mix.
But then there's a third

1097
01:02:19,960 --> 01:02:22,960
element, which was very nicely
described by a 19th century

1098
01:02:22,960 --> 01:02:27,600
neurologist as illness.
According to IDEA, you have a, a

1099
01:02:27,600 --> 01:02:32,040
notion of an illness which
perhaps you've seen because

1100
01:02:32,040 --> 01:02:34,840
we're close relative has
suffered from it, perhaps a

1101
01:02:34,840 --> 01:02:38,160
friend has had it and you're
terrified that you may develop

1102
01:02:38,160 --> 01:02:43,200
it and you kind of bring the
disorder into being as a

1103
01:02:43,200 --> 01:02:47,320
consequence of your imaginative
preoccupation with it.

1104
01:02:48,520 --> 01:02:53,560
So I, I, I tell the story or I,
I report a case in the book

1105
01:02:53,800 --> 01:02:55,960
described by that 19th century
urologist who was called Russell

1106
01:02:55,960 --> 01:03:01,280
Reynolds of a, of a young woman
who had cared for her father,

1107
01:03:01,280 --> 01:03:05,400
who'd fallen on hard times, had
to return to work unexpectedly

1108
01:03:05,400 --> 01:03:08,960
and had a stroke.
And she then had to living and

1109
01:03:08,960 --> 01:03:12,600
look after him.
And she became preoccupied with

1110
01:03:12,680 --> 01:03:15,240
the, the possibility that she
might have a stroke.

1111
01:03:16,120 --> 01:03:19,240
And then lo and behold, suddenly
she loses the power in her legs

1112
01:03:19,680 --> 01:03:25,080
and she's successfully
rehabilitated by by Russell

1113
01:03:25,080 --> 01:03:27,800
Reynolds using sort of a 19th
century approach, which is

1114
01:03:27,800 --> 01:03:31,400
essentially a kind of
multidisciplinary rehabilitation

1115
01:03:32,000 --> 01:03:36,560
with a mix of physiotherapy and,
and, and psychotherapy.

1116
01:03:37,040 --> 01:03:39,880
And that's certainly a kind of
imaginative preoccupation with

1117
01:03:40,480 --> 01:03:44,000
an illness, a set of symptoms
can bring it into being.

1118
01:03:44,120 --> 01:03:48,160
You kind of you.
You predict your own your your

1119
01:03:48,160 --> 01:03:51,880
affliction in into existence.
I remember reading a book by a

1120
01:03:51,880 --> 01:03:56,160
neurologist I think recently it
was called Is It All in My Head?

1121
01:03:56,240 --> 01:04:01,800
And there was a big exploration
on on like social contagions.

1122
01:04:01,800 --> 01:04:07,880
And I think there was recently,
like on TikTok, there were like

1123
01:04:07,880 --> 01:04:13,360
influencers who were, that had
Tourette's syndrome and they

1124
01:04:13,360 --> 01:04:16,320
were kind of exploring their
Tourette's, their symptoms.

1125
01:04:16,520 --> 01:04:20,000
And then like users who didn't
have Tourette's started

1126
01:04:20,000 --> 01:04:24,680
developing Tourette's symptoms,
which is a like a psychogenic

1127
01:04:25,320 --> 01:04:27,640
disorder in that case.
Yeah, we're very good learners,

1128
01:04:27,640 --> 01:04:29,400
aren't we?
We're, we're, we're, we're very,

1129
01:04:29,880 --> 01:04:33,200
we're we're a highly imitative,
highly mimetic species.

1130
01:04:33,200 --> 01:04:34,960
It's it's, it's often to our
advantage.

1131
01:04:35,200 --> 01:04:37,760
But in this particular context,
it can be to our disadvantage.

1132
01:04:38,080 --> 01:04:41,720
And just to re emphasize, most
people with functional

1133
01:04:41,720 --> 01:04:44,240
neurological disorder are just
as puzzled as as their doctors

1134
01:04:44,240 --> 01:04:46,320
are.
So it's, you know, it it, it's

1135
01:04:46,320 --> 01:04:51,600
not a deliberate simulation,
it's the the processes which

1136
01:04:51,600 --> 01:04:54,440
give rise to it are happening
somehow below the threshold of

1137
01:04:54,440 --> 01:04:58,680
consciousness as as a rule.
Yeah, I mean, I remember it was

1138
01:04:58,680 --> 01:05:01,040
like 10 years ago when I
developed low back pain for

1139
01:05:01,040 --> 01:05:03,560
several months, and it was
beyond my understanding.

1140
01:05:03,560 --> 01:05:06,240
I got through everything at it,
you know, from physical therapy

1141
01:05:06,240 --> 01:05:10,240
to psychotherapy.
And it turns out just the

1142
01:05:10,240 --> 01:05:14,680
intense preoccupation with it,
with my back, with the pain was

1143
01:05:14,920 --> 01:05:18,480
driving the disorder.
And I wonder too, if you want to

1144
01:05:18,480 --> 01:05:20,880
talk about some curative
elements here which you've

1145
01:05:20,880 --> 01:05:23,880
explored, which is just the
power of distraction, pulling

1146
01:05:23,880 --> 01:05:26,960
yourself out of the
preoccupation, the fixation, the

1147
01:05:26,960 --> 01:05:30,360
focus can in and of itself be
curative.

1148
01:05:30,480 --> 01:05:34,440
I, I've said this before to
someone, to a friend where they

1149
01:05:34,560 --> 01:05:40,840
had always had like GI symptoms,
very much like irritable bowel

1150
01:05:40,840 --> 01:05:44,480
syndrome.
They said, like they are always

1151
01:05:44,480 --> 01:05:46,200
very kind of aware of their
guts.

1152
01:05:46,920 --> 01:05:49,320
They're all, they're always just
kind of focused on it, you know,

1153
01:05:49,720 --> 01:05:52,720
and, and I wondered out loud,
like, could that have something

1154
01:05:52,720 --> 01:05:55,320
to do with it?
Could you try to forget it?

1155
01:05:55,320 --> 01:05:58,680
Could you try to break that?
Could you try to uncouple that?

1156
01:05:59,000 --> 01:06:01,080
And that in and of itself might
be helpful.

1157
01:06:01,080 --> 01:06:05,200
And that just more or less falls
on deaf ears, unfortunately.

1158
01:06:05,200 --> 01:06:08,560
You know, it is a it is a good
insight and actually could be

1159
01:06:08,560 --> 01:06:11,080
very therapeutic, but it's just
not helpful.

1160
01:06:11,960 --> 01:06:15,160
I'm sure you experience this all
the time in clinic, which is.

1161
01:06:15,560 --> 01:06:17,360
You need to find some positive
strategy.

1162
01:06:17,360 --> 01:06:21,760
So there are many examples in in
treatment of a functional

1163
01:06:21,760 --> 01:06:24,040
neurological disorder.
I think 1 I mentioned in the

1164
01:06:24,040 --> 01:06:29,080
book a colleague treated a
patient who had become honest

1165
01:06:29,080 --> 01:06:33,840
unable to to walk but forwards,
but when asked to walk

1166
01:06:34,000 --> 01:06:38,160
backwards, found you could do so
and asked to imagine skating,

1167
01:06:38,160 --> 01:06:40,080
found you could do so.
I have a lovely video of of

1168
01:06:40,080 --> 01:06:43,320
another the young teacher who'd
become unable to walk but when

1169
01:06:43,320 --> 01:06:45,680
she was put on a treadmill found
she could run.

1170
01:06:46,920 --> 01:06:51,280
So as soon as, as soon as the
activity was very little in a

1171
01:06:51,280 --> 01:06:53,240
way which.
Did that break the spell?

1172
01:06:53,400 --> 01:06:54,800
Yeah, it broke the spell.
It broke the spell.

1173
01:06:55,280 --> 01:06:59,440
And they could walk again.
With with a bit of from a physio

1174
01:06:59,440 --> 01:07:03,040
yeah yeah.
So full recovery is entirely,

1175
01:07:03,040 --> 01:07:09,640
entirely possible, but you need,
you need skilled help from

1176
01:07:09,640 --> 01:07:13,440
people who understand the, the
mechanisms of, of this kind of

1177
01:07:13,440 --> 01:07:16,200
process and, and you, and what
you don't need is to be told

1178
01:07:16,200 --> 01:07:18,000
that it's all in your head and
you should put yourself together

1179
01:07:18,160 --> 01:07:22,080
because that doesn't work.
That's very invalidating, and it

1180
01:07:22,080 --> 01:07:25,520
tends to drive people away, I
think, from the healing process.

1181
01:07:25,520 --> 01:07:27,320
Yeah.
The last part of the

1182
01:07:27,520 --> 01:07:31,560
conversation is, is, you know,
you putting together a book, You

1183
01:07:31,560 --> 01:07:35,400
said you thought about this many
years ago before you even

1184
01:07:36,120 --> 01:07:39,760
started studying a Fantasia.
I just wonder, you know, how was

1185
01:07:39,760 --> 01:07:43,320
the experience of going from
clinician and research scientist

1186
01:07:43,440 --> 01:07:46,760
to writing Popular Science?
Like, why not everybody makes

1187
01:07:46,760 --> 01:07:47,800
that leap.
You did.

1188
01:07:47,960 --> 01:07:49,960
How was it and and why did you
want to do it?

1189
01:07:50,160 --> 01:07:54,240
So I, I love writing.
I came, I, I have a way of

1190
01:07:54,240 --> 01:07:57,080
background in literature that
was a particular interest at

1191
01:07:57,080 --> 01:07:59,760
school.
So I've always been very, very

1192
01:07:59,760 --> 01:08:03,040
happy to, to have opportunities
to write.

1193
01:08:03,040 --> 01:08:04,840
I've written a couple of books
previously, one about

1194
01:08:04,840 --> 01:08:07,800
consciousness and another kind
of introduction to the brain

1195
01:08:08,480 --> 01:08:11,600
level by level from atom to
psyche with a case history at

1196
01:08:11,600 --> 01:08:14,080
each level of description.
So I knew, I knew that I enjoyed

1197
01:08:14,080 --> 01:08:16,240
writing.
This particular book had been in

1198
01:08:16,240 --> 01:08:20,479
my mind probably for 20 years
and I've had one or two full

1199
01:08:20,479 --> 01:08:22,279
starts.
And I think actually COVID was a

1200
01:08:22,560 --> 01:08:26,520
help with it because I, I had a
little bit more, more time than

1201
01:08:26,520 --> 01:08:32,319
usual and was able to focus on
it in a way I'd, I'd not before.

1202
01:08:32,399 --> 01:08:36,200
As you say, the Adventasia
Adventasia work wasn't the

1203
01:08:36,680 --> 01:08:40,120
initial trigger, but it, but it
helped, I think, because it, it

1204
01:08:40,120 --> 01:08:43,640
meant that I was thinking about
imagery and imagination in my

1205
01:08:43,640 --> 01:08:50,279
research as well as in my sort
of more philosophical moments at

1206
01:08:50,279 --> 01:08:52,760
leisure.
And I, I enormously enjoy

1207
01:08:52,760 --> 01:08:54,840
writing.
I'm always happiest when I have

1208
01:08:54,840 --> 01:08:56,479
something to tinker with.
I think it's a bit like having a

1209
01:08:56,479 --> 01:08:57,720
shed at the bottom of the
garden, isn't it?

1210
01:08:57,720 --> 01:09:00,720
You can, you can take yourself
off and lose yourself in in the

1211
01:09:00,720 --> 01:09:02,720
project in a very therapeutic
way.

1212
01:09:03,240 --> 01:09:08,319
Even if we don't get all the
things we want, like we can only

1213
01:09:08,960 --> 01:09:12,760
make art for money or that's all
we can do, or we don't achieve

1214
01:09:12,760 --> 01:09:16,120
the level of, you know,
notoriety that we might want, we

1215
01:09:16,120 --> 01:09:19,439
have something to do.
We have somewhere to go to put

1216
01:09:19,439 --> 01:09:21,160
our mind to forget about our
problems.

1217
01:09:21,520 --> 01:09:26,279
That in and of itself is
medicine, and perhaps one reason

1218
01:09:26,279 --> 01:09:30,399
why we make art is to make life
a little easier to live and or

1219
01:09:30,399 --> 01:09:32,479
at least forget about how hard
it can be.

1220
01:09:32,720 --> 01:09:35,720
It allows moments of flow which
which are very rewarding.

1221
01:09:35,960 --> 01:09:37,560
It's, it's intrinsically
rewarding, isn't it?

1222
01:09:38,000 --> 01:09:39,720
Yeah.
And I think it was the

1223
01:09:39,720 --> 01:09:41,920
creativity researcher Mikhail
Chiksen.

1224
01:09:41,920 --> 01:09:45,640
Yeah, he wrote a famous book on
creativity and this Ted talk, he

1225
01:09:45,640 --> 01:09:48,319
talked about how the more
moments of flow you have, the

1226
01:09:48,319 --> 01:09:53,319
happy you are scientifically to
kind of close, maybe close with

1227
01:09:53,319 --> 01:09:57,240
a bit of lessons you learned
from exploring human

1228
01:09:57,240 --> 01:10:01,120
imagination.
So much of this exploration is

1229
01:10:01,160 --> 01:10:03,920
like the double edged sword
nature of it all.

1230
01:10:04,320 --> 01:10:07,560
We can dislocate ourselves from
the present, which allows us to

1231
01:10:07,560 --> 01:10:12,680
plan and, you know, you know,
imagine future scenarios, but it

1232
01:10:12,680 --> 01:10:16,840
can also lead us Into Darkness.
We can become preoccupied with

1233
01:10:16,880 --> 01:10:18,720
traumatic events and so on and
so forth.

1234
01:10:19,040 --> 01:10:22,720
So how do we get a better
control on our imagination?

1235
01:10:22,720 --> 01:10:26,320
How can we get the best of it
without while avoiding our our

1236
01:10:26,320 --> 01:10:28,280
pitfalls?
I wonder if you thought about

1237
01:10:28,280 --> 01:10:30,520
that in the process.
Yeah, I mean, that's really a

1238
01:10:30,520 --> 01:10:34,920
general question about mental
hygiene really, rather than

1239
01:10:35,200 --> 01:10:39,400
imagination specifically.
I think, I think we just, we, we

1240
01:10:39,400 --> 01:10:43,400
all of us have somehow to, to
walk this, this tightrope.

1241
01:10:44,080 --> 01:10:48,280
We need, we all of us need
satisfaction in the present.

1242
01:10:48,880 --> 01:10:51,120
We all of us need to enjoy the
here and now.

1243
01:10:51,440 --> 01:10:55,120
But I don't think any human life
would be complete if we were

1244
01:10:55,120 --> 01:10:56,800
entirely immersed in the
present.

1245
01:10:56,800 --> 01:11:00,480
We need to have a a sense of
where we come from and where we

1246
01:11:00,480 --> 01:11:04,080
are going.
So we somehow need to apportion

1247
01:11:04,120 --> 01:11:08,040
our lives between present
enjoyment and long term

1248
01:11:08,560 --> 01:11:10,520
possibility.
I agree with what you said

1249
01:11:10,520 --> 01:11:15,640
earlier about the, the kind of
toggling that we all learn to

1250
01:11:16,160 --> 01:11:21,240
achieve in, in creative pursuits
between a receptive state in

1251
01:11:21,240 --> 01:11:27,680
which we, we, we kind of lower a
bucket down into the, into the

1252
01:11:27,680 --> 01:11:31,280
well of our unconscious and a
more active state in which we,

1253
01:11:31,720 --> 01:11:35,280
we examine what comes up and see
what kind of use we, we, we can

1254
01:11:35,280 --> 01:11:38,000
make of it.
And I guess we have to toggle in

1255
01:11:38,000 --> 01:11:41,640
the same way between present
enjoyment and longer term

1256
01:11:41,880 --> 01:11:44,920
projects.
So I think it's a it's a big

1257
01:11:44,920 --> 01:11:46,480
human challenge.
I don't think there's any simple

1258
01:11:47,000 --> 01:11:49,320
simple answer.
Oh no, you've picked a very

1259
01:11:49,320 --> 01:11:52,000
complicated topic so there is no
simple answer.

1260
01:11:52,640 --> 01:11:55,840
It kind of makes me think of
maybe what meditation is for.

1261
01:11:55,840 --> 01:11:59,360
It's the idea of just getting a
like a look at your own mind,

1262
01:11:59,960 --> 01:12:02,200
watching it, so to speak.
Watch the watcher.

1263
01:12:02,720 --> 01:12:06,120
Developing that awareness of
yourself and your own thinking

1264
01:12:06,120 --> 01:12:11,560
processes maybe is a goal here
so that you can see, oh, maybe

1265
01:12:11,560 --> 01:12:14,760
I've been spending a little too
much time dislocated from the

1266
01:12:14,760 --> 01:12:19,680
present, or maybe I should be in
my head a little bit more using

1267
01:12:19,680 --> 01:12:22,520
it, using its powers.
But to just see both, to just

1268
01:12:22,520 --> 01:12:24,960
see where you are in the
proportions and if I had.

1269
01:12:24,960 --> 01:12:31,240
Any key takeaways, insights from
from the the the research that

1270
01:12:32,000 --> 01:12:33,560
the book involved?
And I, I think there, there were

1271
01:12:33,800 --> 01:12:37,080
two things really.
One, I am, you know, as we all

1272
01:12:37,080 --> 01:12:41,600
should be hugely impressed by
the astonishing creativity of

1273
01:12:41,600 --> 01:12:44,720
human minds.
It's human creativity is

1274
01:12:45,520 --> 01:12:48,120
irrepressible and we're
surrounded by it.

1275
01:12:48,120 --> 01:12:51,640
And it's, it really is, is
something to celebrate.

1276
01:12:52,040 --> 01:12:56,280
And at the same time, I, I'm, I
was impressed by the, the

1277
01:12:56,280 --> 01:12:59,680
ubiquitous creativity of our
experience moment to moment.

1278
01:12:59,680 --> 01:13:02,040
So I really, I, I really do
believe that even if we're not

1279
01:13:02,240 --> 01:13:05,120
at all engaged in, in creative
pursuits, we are performing a

1280
01:13:05,120 --> 01:13:08,120
kind of active creation in every
moment of our lives.

1281
01:13:08,520 --> 01:13:12,760
And I was, I closed the book
with a, a graffiti which I came

1282
01:13:12,760 --> 01:13:14,400
across as I was jogging through
London.

1283
01:13:14,400 --> 01:13:16,640
I was sort of musing on, on the
book's themes.

1284
01:13:16,640 --> 01:13:18,520
And I just found this on, on a
wall.

1285
01:13:19,240 --> 01:13:22,640
I wish I could show you when you
are lonely or in distress, the

1286
01:13:22,640 --> 01:13:27,160
shining light of your own being
written, I think, by an Iranian

1287
01:13:27,160 --> 01:13:31,480
poet in the 15th century or so.
So I I do believe all of us

1288
01:13:31,800 --> 01:13:36,320
contain a kind of shining light
which underlies our creative

1289
01:13:36,400 --> 01:13:38,480
experience of the world from
moment to moment.

1290
01:13:38,480 --> 01:13:40,680
And if we had a better kind of
complexity detector in our

1291
01:13:40,680 --> 01:13:44,720
heads, we'd be astonished by the
complexity that each of us

1292
01:13:45,000 --> 01:13:48,000
contains within.
Within his head, or her head I

1293
01:13:48,000 --> 01:13:49,760
should say.
I literally was going to read

1294
01:13:49,760 --> 01:13:52,280
that that quote out.
It's great.

1295
01:13:52,280 --> 01:13:56,920
Great way to to conclude it.
It makes me think of the Camus

1296
01:13:57,160 --> 01:13:59,280
code.
I think, you know, in a, in a,

1297
01:13:59,560 --> 01:14:05,120
in a winter, there is a, an
infinite light or infinite

1298
01:14:05,160 --> 01:14:08,000
summer or something like that.
Yeah.

1299
01:14:09,320 --> 01:14:11,480
And what are you working on
next?

1300
01:14:11,840 --> 01:14:14,320
These imagery extremes.
So I'm I'm planning to write a

1301
01:14:14,320 --> 01:14:16,640
book about Adventasia and
Adventasia, which have opened

1302
01:14:16,640 --> 01:14:21,440
all kinds of interesting windows
which which I want to decline

1303
01:14:21,440 --> 01:14:26,760
through very much enjoying my
conversations with people who

1304
01:14:26,760 --> 01:14:29,360
lack imagery or or have it in in
abundance.

1305
01:14:29,600 --> 01:14:33,440
I think it's it's a topic which
takes you rather quickly to a

1306
01:14:33,440 --> 01:14:35,400
quite intimate place in people's
lives.

1307
01:14:36,120 --> 01:14:39,560
In how they perceive the world
and how it differs and that

1308
01:14:39,560 --> 01:14:42,200
there was variation we we
weren't aware of.

1309
01:14:42,200 --> 01:14:44,360
Basically we thought we all
thought the same.

1310
01:14:44,720 --> 01:14:47,240
Turns out that was that was not
right.

1311
01:14:47,840 --> 01:14:50,040
Let us know where we can get
your book.

1312
01:14:50,480 --> 01:14:53,480
Let us know where we can follow
your work and find you online.

1313
01:14:53,680 --> 01:14:56,960
I think from from next week it's
it's the the shape of things

1314
01:14:56,960 --> 01:14:58,960
unseen.
A new Science of Imagination

1315
01:14:58,960 --> 01:15:00,960
will be published in Pick back
in February.

1316
01:15:01,440 --> 01:15:03,360
You can't visit a personal
website.

1317
01:15:03,360 --> 01:15:07,800
I have an academic one.
The work on extreme imagery has

1318
01:15:07,800 --> 01:15:12,080
been under the auspices of the
Eyes Mind Project as we've

1319
01:15:12,080 --> 01:15:14,560
called it, so there is an Eyes
Mind Project website, University

1320
01:15:14,560 --> 01:15:16,320
of Edinburgh, so if you're
interested in finding out more

1321
01:15:16,320 --> 01:15:19,240
about that particular line of
work, you'll find plenty there.

1322
01:15:19,640 --> 01:15:21,240
Well, I'm looking forward to
your next book.

1323
01:15:21,240 --> 01:15:25,680
I, I can't wait to read it.
And thank you so much for coming

1324
01:15:25,680 --> 01:15:28,240
on to talk about The Shape of
Things Unseen.

1325
01:15:28,600 --> 01:15:29,920
And I really appreciate your
time.

1326
01:15:29,920 --> 01:15:36,200
I.
Hope you enjoyed this

1327
01:15:36,200 --> 01:15:37,920
conversation with Doctor Adam
Zeeman.

1328
01:15:38,640 --> 01:15:41,520
If you enjoyed this episode,
consider sharing it with someone

1329
01:15:41,560 --> 01:15:45,000
and starting a conversation.
And if you've got a minute, I've

1330
01:15:45,000 --> 01:15:47,520
got a new survey up and I'd love
your feedback on the show.

1331
01:15:47,960 --> 01:15:52,960
Just head to
www.curiouslypod.com/survey.

1332
01:15:53,520 --> 01:15:56,520
Tell me what you like, what you
don't like, what you want more

1333
01:15:56,520 --> 01:16:00,200
of, what you want less of, or
read every response and there's

1334
01:16:00,200 --> 01:16:02,880
a good chance your feedback will
shape future episodes.

1335
01:16:03,200 --> 01:16:05,240
Thanks again for listening and
stay tuned for more

1336
01:16:05,240 --> 01:16:07,320
conversations with people and
meet along the way.