How to Write About Friendship, Grief, and Growing Up with Samantha Cooke

Dustin Grinnell (00:00:00 --> 00:01:54)
I'm Dustin Grinnell, and this is Curiously.

When Sam Cooke's debut novel, Love Always, Bailey, went on sale on November 13th, 2023, within hours it hit number 1 in new release young adult books about mental health. It also broke top 10 for YA bestsellers, just below the acclaimed YA author John Green, author of The Fault in Our Stars. Over the next couple of days, the novel's paperback, ebook, and hardcover versions had taken the top 3 spots in new releases. A diehard Swiftie, Sam wrote on Instagram, "Is this how Taylor Swift feels when all of her songs from a new album are in the top 10?" "Love Always, Bailey" is a story drawn from Sam's real childhood friendships. In the book, an estranged group of college-age friends meet at the Highview, a beach house they visited every summer during high school.

They planned a 5-day reunion to heal from a trauma that has fractured their group. The story follows Morgan, who hasn't heard from her best friend Bailey in 7 months—not since their potentially relationship-ending fight on New Year's Eve. Morgan arrives at the Highview with some serious retracing to do. Is Bailey coming to the beach house? Why won't she answer Morgan's texts?

What really happened on that New Year's Eve? With snappy dialogue, a sunny Florida setting, and flashbacks that keep the reader engaged, this young adult novel about friendship teaches readers about loving and grieving simultaneously. The New York Times bestselling author of The Last True Love Story, Brendan Kiely, said of Love, Alice Bailey, Sam Cooke is right. Grief and love can live side by side in a heart. It's such a small world, and yet anyone who has ever been young and has had a best friend knows the world is a vast, deep, and complicated world worthy of a novel.

I hope you enjoy this conversation with Sam Cooke, in which we talk about the origins of her book, her writing process, and much more.

Sam Cooke (00:01:54 --> 00:01:55)
Hi, happy to be here.

Dustin Grinnell (00:01:56 --> 00:02:08)
So, to begin the conversation, you've offered to read an excerpt from your novel, Love Always, Bailey. I think it's a great idea. So, if you don't mind, just set the scene up where we are in the book and have at it.

Sam Cooke (00:02:08 --> 00:02:28)
Yeah, so this book is— it alternates between present day and flashbacks, so I'm gonna be reading one of the flashbacks. It follows the group of friends on their last day of high school, and it— the flashbacks in the book sort of show where the friend group was and leads into where they ultimately end up.

Dustin Grinnell (00:02:28 --> 00:02:32)
How many friends? Six. So we see six friends in this? Yes.

Sam Cooke (00:02:33 --> 00:03:01)
And I think I once told you, I think when we were talking about it, that this was, like, my favorite scene that I've ever written. So, that's what I'm gonna read. Let it rip. Ryder ran up to meet us, his phone in his hand. He stood in front of us, forcing us to stop walking, and flashed his phone at us. "We got the dates for the Highview." "How do you have them and not me?" Noah asked. "He's my dad." Ryder looked up from his phone and pushed his curls out of his eyes. "Doesn't mean I'm not his favorite," he joked.

Dustin Grinnell (00:03:01 --> 00:03:03)
"Anyway, it's a group text.

Sam Cooke (00:03:03 --> 00:03:24)
Check your phones." We all pulled our phones from our pocket. "Are you seeing this?" Ethan ran up to join us in the middle of the cafeteria. The 6 of us stood in a circle, our faces buried in our phones. Allie gasped. Wait, we have the high view for the entire month of July? This is going to be legendary, you guys, Bailey said.

Dustin Grinnell (00:03:25 --> 00:03:27)
Legendary enough for a wedding?

Sam Cooke (00:03:27 --> 00:03:34)
Ryder looked between Bailey and Ethan before exploding into laughter. Very funny, Ethan and Bailey said at the same time.

Dustin Grinnell (00:03:34 --> 00:03:57)
Which only caused the rest of us to laugh. We walked over to the senior section where we were handed pallets of paint. "If anyone should have a marriage pact, it's Morgan and Ryder," Allie said as she dipped her hand in red paint. She pressed it against the spot on the wall that Noah had reserved for us and handed the paint to Ryder. He dropped his hand in the gold paint and stared at me with a smile.

Sam Cooke (00:03:58 --> 00:04:00)
My heart instantly beat faster.

Dustin Grinnell (00:04:01 --> 00:04:04)
Ethan interrupted the moment as he grabbed the paint from Ryder.

Sam Cooke (00:04:04 --> 00:04:07)
"Guys, you're missing something very important here.

Dustin Grinnell (00:04:07 --> 00:06:34)
Ryder threw his wipe into the garbage can while Bailey and I added our handprints to the wall. "Yeah, that's a good point. Why aren't we freaking out about this more?" "Because Noah has been breathing down our necks to come paint our hands," I said. Noah squinted and gave a sarcastic laugh. He pressed his painted hand against the wall, cementing the 6 of us to live forever on the cafeteria wall of Space Coast High.

We stood back and stared. Bailey sighed. "One last summer before we all go our separate ways." "Stop being dramatic," Ethan said. "We'll see each other during breaks." Noah wiped his hands and looked around the senior section, nodding at the work. "Finally." "You act as if you just went to war," Ethan said.

"Trying to plan anything with you guys is my own personal war," Noah replied. I went to grab another wipe off the table. Just as I was going to clean the last of the paint off my hand, I paused and instead quickly wiped the paint on Ryder's face. He raised his eyebrows at me with a smile and then laughed. "Really, Morgan?" I gave him my best innocent smile just before he wrapped his arms around my shoulders.

I exploded into laughter as he yelled to Bailey for backup. "Hand me the paint!" Bailey grabbed a paintbrush coated in gold paint and handed it to Ryder. As I laughed, Ryder painted a thick line across my forehead. Allie lifted her phone to take a picture of us, but I snatched up a paintbrush with red paint and flicked it at her. She gasped, her jaw dropping as red paint streaked her blonde hair.

"I hate you!" The rest of us laughed obnoxiously, even Noah, who knew this would require much more cleanup than he had planned for. "Oh, come on, Allie," Bailey said with a smug smile. "Red is a great color on you." Allie and I looked at each other and didn't miss a beat. We smeared our hands in paint and ran them across Bailey's face. Ethan tried to hand Bailey a wipe but was caught in the crossfire as Bailey retaliated against Allie and me.

Sam Cooke (00:06:35 --> 00:06:38)
Walking over to us, he squeezed the bottle over the three of us.

Dustin Grinnell (00:06:39 --> 00:07:58)
Noah pulled out his phone. "At least you didn't get any on my wall." The 6 of us stood in front of our handprints and grinned for the picture. Noah positioned the phone to get all of us in the shot, and he smiled. Happy last day of high school. Speaking of, Ryder said, once the picture had been taken, are we meeting anywhere before graduation tomorrow?

He grabbed an entire package of wipes off the table and started handing them around. We tried our best to clean up the paint that was quickly drying on our skin. Ally closed the pocket mirror she'd been staring into. Can't, my grandparents are coming in. But after we should.

Agreed. I said, "Bailey, want me to swing by and get you so we can ride together?" Bailey nodded. When the bell rang a few minutes later, we walked out of the cafeteria to finish our last afternoon as high schoolers, covered in paint and feeling exhausted after how hard we had just laughed. Ryder squeezed my hand before he walked down the hall from the group. He stopped a few feet away and turned around.

"Hey, Morgan," he said. You've got something on your face.

Dustin Grinnell (00:08:00 --> 00:08:04)
Nice. So, why that scene? In a 260-page book, that's your favorite?

Sam Cooke (00:08:05 --> 00:08:21)
I think something that is, like, so special to me about the flashback scenes is it really shows where the friends started out. And I think it paints a good picture of how everything was.

Dustin Grinnell (00:08:23 --> 00:08:25)
Before things started to change.

Sam Cooke (00:08:27 --> 00:08:39)
I also had a lot of fun writing it because it— when writing, I like quick dialogue. I love to do scene writing as opposed to exposition of what's going on.

Dustin Grinnell (00:08:39 --> 00:09:04)
[Speaker:BRANDON] So yeah, the book, the way it's structured is you have basically like half the book is kind of in the past through flashbacks, and then like half the book is in the present, and you alternate between those. And yeah, you're right. It gives a contrast between, you know, the way things were, and then something happened. And now here are the way things currently are. So how'd you come to the decision to structure the book in those alternating chapters?

Sam Cooke (00:09:04 --> 00:09:06)
I needed a lot of words.

Dustin Grinnell (00:09:07 --> 00:09:08)
You needed to fill—

Dustin Grinnell (00:09:08 --> 00:09:09)
I needed to fill space. Right.

Sam Cooke (00:09:09 --> 00:09:52)
No, I think, you know what it was is writing the story, I always knew that it was going to be the aftermath of this event that happens to this friend group. And I think what was so important is that you had to see how they were beforehand. You had to see how much they loved each other. You had to see how much fun they had. And you had to see the Highview, the house that they go to, the beach house they go to. You had to see it as a place of good memories and as a place of, like, happiness and peace. For this friend group because it very quickly does not stay that way. Right.

Dustin Grinnell (00:09:53 --> 00:10:37)
The beating heart of this book is a major change. It is a loss. And you'll have to read the book to figure that out. But you maintain this mystery throughout the book. And really, it seems like you have this group of friends who had this kind of almost like utopic kind of idyllic friend group.

And then something fractures that. And the characters are dealing with that loss in different ways. The story revolves around Morgan, the protagonist, and she has her own way of dealing with the change and dealing with grief. And it seems like each character is kind of dealing with it in their own way. But they've certainly come a long way from where it was like a beautiful friend group.

Sam Cooke (00:10:37 --> 00:11:02)
And I think that it— sort of speaks to— on, like, a human level, I think it speaks to, like, how different people grieve and react. But on, like, a craft level, it proved to be, like, a huge challenge, like, managing 6 different characters reacting to this traumatic event that happened to them.

Dustin Grinnell (00:11:02 --> 00:11:18)
[Speaker:JASON] Yeah, so did you have to map it out in that sense? Like, so you've got— Morgan reacting to it in this way, and her way is denial, as we see. And then you have the other characters. Did you have to— did you want to show, like, the multiplicity of responses to a traumatic event?

Sam Cooke (00:11:19 --> 00:12:33)
You know what it was? These characters are all based off of and inspired by my own childhood friend group. And so, I know these characters so well. Because I know the people that they are represented, that they represent so well. And so some of it was like, oh, how would Jen, who in the story is Ally, how would Jen react to this? What would she do sort of thing? And so I think maybe I cheated a little bit because I know them so well. I think that it allowed me to, vary how these characters reacted while still staying true to the idea that, like, maybe someone would be in denial, maybe someone would lash out, maybe someone would come and try to be the fixer and try to make everything better. And so I think it just speaks to— we think that there's one way to grieve, we think that there's one way to, like, be upset or, like, heal from something. And I think it just speaks to, like, there are so many things that can happen. Right.

Dustin Grinnell (00:12:33 --> 00:12:35)
People react in different ways. Yeah.

Sam Cooke (00:12:35 --> 00:12:59)
You know, you could say, like, "Oh, I would never do that." And I did have some people that when they read the earliest drafts were like, "I don't think it's believable that Morgan would act the way that she does." And I— You know, I can respect that, but I think it's also like— but people do. And if people didn't, then there wouldn't be, like, psychological studies on it.

Dustin Grinnell (00:13:00 --> 00:13:04)
Her response being really like a profound case of denial.

Sam Cooke (00:13:04 --> 00:13:38)
She's in, like, complete denial. I think all of them a little bit are, like, you know, still trying to— I don't want to, like, give away what happened. They don't want to accept it. Because they're so hurt by it. But Morgan takes it to a different level, thinking it never happened, everything's fine. And so the decision to do that, it was just like, I think a very personal decision because, you know, I don't wanna like diagnose, but I think that's maybe how I would react if I were in this situation.

Dustin Grinnell (00:13:39 --> 00:13:42)
[Speaker] Yeah, it's sort of put your head in the sand.

Sam Cooke (00:13:42 --> 00:14:08)
Yeah, so the, like, term for it is complicated grief. And so basically what that is, is when someone is, like, grieving something so intense or so hard, their reaction to it is not, like, textbook what someone would see. It's not just, like, crying or the, like, stages of grief.

Dustin Grinnell (00:14:08 --> 00:14:34)
Yeah, it can be surprising and unexpected and paradoxical. And, you know, there's a lot of lines in the book where something like people are trying to figure out how to manage loss and they, you know, people offer platitudes like, you know, "It's gonna be okay, right?" And the response is kind of like, "I think it's okay if it's not okay." BRITTNEY] Yeah.

Sam Cooke (00:14:34 --> 00:15:17)
I think there's something also to be said about the fact that they're teenagers. Whereas, like, you know, when you're a young adult or a teenager, you are already feeling everything that you feel so intensely because you're feeling it for the first time. You know, that's why they, like, coin it, like, puppy love and things like that. So you feel every big event, good or bad or neutral, so intensely because you've never felt it before. Everything is like a new experience for the first 20 or so years of your life. And I think it speaks a lot to the characters and their friend group, how they are all reacting to this.

Dustin Grinnell (00:15:19 --> 00:16:13)
[Speaker:BRANDON] So we'll get back to— we'll talk about grief and the fact that this book has a lot to say about mental health. And I definitely want to get back to that, but let's just keep setting the book up. Let's, you know, talk about it's set in Florida, that's where you're from. And most of the book takes place at a beach house based on a beach house you and your friends used to go to. It's called the Highview. And talk about what kind of sets the story in motion. You know, Morgan has a cousin that's Noah, and he has kind of a sweet, thing that he does, which is that he thinks if he can get the friends back to the Highview after this major loss, then they can heal. And I think it's kind of a sweet idea. You know, we can go back to where it all began, and we can put the pieces back together. And I think that's kind of how the book gets going.

Sam Cooke (00:16:14 --> 00:17:23)
Yeah, I think the house itself, and like you said, it is a real house in Minnesota Key, Florida, and it is called the Highview. I think the house itself was the first character when I sat down to write this. I knew I wanted to write a story about friends, but even before that, I knew I wanted it to be set at the Highview because my friends and myself and my best friend Jenna— Jen and Jenna— Jenna's family, we had, like, just these wonderful weeks each summer at the Highview. And it was just like the most magical time. We would leave the Highview and we would start a countdown. Okay, 363 days until we're back, sort of thing. And we started going when we were like 18, 19. We still go. I mean, things have changed in our friend group. You know, life happens, sort of thing. But we still go now in our 30s. And Jenna and Jen are breeding their kids and like, it's now becoming like a generational trip. So I knew I wanted the Highview to be a character.

Dustin Grinnell (00:17:24 --> 00:17:32)
Even the first title was the Highview's address. Yes, yes. So it is a character in and of itself, right?

Sam Cooke (00:17:32 --> 00:18:22)
Yeah, I remember in my MFA program taking a craft class, and it was the idea that setting and place could be what the story was. And I feel like even in my other works, I feel like I'm a big person that writes about where it's happening and where it's taking place because I think it affects who you are. Like reading a story about someone on New York City's Upper East Side versus, you know, someone in the slums of, you know, wherever, totally different life experiences. So I think that setting it at the Highview and making the Highview sort of the center of the story really helped just like kick it off and like propel what the story was gonna be about.

Dustin Grinnell (00:18:22 --> 00:18:54)
[Speaker:JASON] And so, yeah, the house, the location is a character. The beach is a character. Even on the COVID you've got a picture of a beach. And it's, you know, I'm from New England, northern New Hampshire, and we have brutal winters. And the idea of coming from the beach is a little bit foreign to me. But, like, your book evokes what it's like to be from the sun-kissed beaches of Florida, you know? Yeah.

Sam Cooke (00:18:54 --> 00:19:43)
I mean, I grew up in Florida. I spent the first, like, 25 years of my life there before moving up north. I've been out of Florida less than 10 years, so like winter is still brutal to me. Still like trying to get used to it, but it was what I knew. And this was my first novel, and I knew that I wanted to and probably needed to write about people and places that I knew and that I knew so well that I could take everything I knew about them and fictionalize it and have it still be a story and not just, like, a memoir about my friends. I think I said once it sometimes feels like I sat down and I wrote a love letter to Jen and Jenna. I mean, we've been best friends since we were, like, 9 years old. So, like, 20-plus years.

Dustin Grinnell (00:19:43 --> 00:20:02)
[Speaker:BRANDON] Where did the impulse come to draw from your own personal experience? Because some writers write fantasies. In fantastic worlds and they don't draw as deeply as you do. Why did you want to draw from your personal life as much? It's funny.

Sam Cooke (00:20:02 --> 00:20:30)
What it was is I remember I just moved to New York City and I was like texting my friends about like, I think that I want to write like a young adult book. It's always been my favorite genre to read. I have a background in education, so I've always been around young adults. And so I was just like, "I want to write a young adult book." And jokingly, one of my friends was like, "Write it about us. Like, make it about us." You're welcome. I did.

Dustin Grinnell (00:20:32 --> 00:20:45)
It must be kind of cool to have it out in the world now, right? You know, it's quite a feat to do that, to take it from a joke, a premise, and to now hold it in your hands. All of you can hold it in your hands.

Sam Cooke (00:20:46 --> 00:21:19)
Yeah, that was back in 2015. So it's been an 8-year adventure coming. And, you know, people that I work with or like people that haven't known me forever, then they find out like, oh, you're a writer, you write books. Oh, your first book is out. That's so cool. The first question is always like, how long have you been writing it? And when I say like, Oh, you know, I started the first draft in 2015, you can, like, see the shock on their face that it's like, oh, it takes that long?

Dustin Grinnell (00:21:20 --> 00:21:39)
Do you want to just give a glimpse into why that happens? Like, why? Because you'd think if you sat down and just wrote for 6 months, you'd have something, right? But you don't. You know, there's iteration, there's workshopping, there's editors, there's finding a publisher. It's multiple rounds. And, like, just give us a glimpse into why it takes years.

Sam Cooke (00:21:40 --> 00:21:46)
So I historically am a fast first draft writer. 2 days.

Dustin Grinnell (00:21:46 --> 00:21:47)
2 minutes.

Sam Cooke (00:21:47 --> 00:21:48)
Wow.

Dustin Grinnell (00:21:48 --> 00:21:50)
Well, you use ChatGPT, right? Right.

Sam Cooke (00:21:50 --> 00:21:55)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That makes sense. Yeah, I haven't written my own words since— Why would you when you can— 2010.

Dustin Grinnell (00:21:56 --> 00:22:06)
Yeah. I just wrote 2 novels yesterday. And I said, make it just like Infinite Jest, you know, as my reference. Yeah. So there's a lot of footnotes.

Sam Cooke (00:22:07 --> 00:22:15)
Well, that's actually how I got onto the Amazon list, right? By John Green. Right. Because I just said to ChatGPT, make it like John Green. Right.

Dustin Grinnell (00:22:16 --> 00:22:17)
But you just got canceled. Yeah.

Sam Cooke (00:22:18 --> 00:23:22)
My bad. So I am like a fast first draft writer. I think it's because I come from a theater background. And so, so much of training in theater is like teaching directors and actors and playwrights that you can't, like, dilly-dally. People will lose interest.

You have an hour and a half, 2 hours, and you are going against an intermission too that people could be like, "All right, I'm all set," and leave in the middle of your show. So you want everything to be as tight as possible. And so I feel like when I'm writing, my first draft is just like anything that I'm thinking, it just gets onto the page. So back in 2015, I remember, like, first draft was done and I was like, this is great. This is so good.

Dustin Grinnell (00:23:22 --> 00:23:32)
Found holes in the logic, said these two characters could be one, the ending could use work, maybe you should change the title, you need to tighten up the scenes, give it more heat, that kind of stuff.

Sam Cooke (00:23:32 --> 00:24:23)
And so surprise, surprise, zero bites. So then in 2017, I sort of was like, okay, I need to like revisit this. I wrote other things in between. It wasn't just 8 years of just this one novel. So then when I started at my MFA program, we tore it apart in like the best way.

They're like, big reveal scene. At one draft, it started the whole story, so you knew what happened going into it. The title changed like 3 times. I did go back and forth thinking like, maybe I don't need 6 characters. Maybe it can just be 3.

Dustin Grinnell (00:24:24 --> 00:24:29)
And one can change in 5 years as well. You can change in 5 days. So yeah, you're seeing your work from new eyes.

Sam Cooke (00:24:30 --> 00:24:58)
Yeah, and I became a better writer in my MFA program. As I've gotten older, I've— I think I have a better handle on story. And so I graduated in 2021, and it took from 2021 to this year to go through all of the, like, different routes to publication. So from idea to holding it in my hand, it was 7.5, 8-year relationship.

Dustin Grinnell (00:24:58 --> 00:25:57)
And just talk briefly about that process of you pitch them your idea, it's called a query letter, it's usually like a basic synopsis of your book, and then it has a bio that says who you are, right? And then it has like, 5 pages or 25 pages from the book that they can look at. And you were getting a lot of, like, responses from them, which is admirable. Like, a lot of people just get ghosted. They never hear back.

But you were getting, like, what are called partial requests. They would ask for some of the book to read. You would get full requests where they would ask for the whole book to read, and they would read the whole book, which is already a rarefied air. Yeah. Because they get 100 emails a day.

Sam Cooke (00:25:58 --> 00:26:28)
So it's when I was querying it, it was 51,000. And for reference, like in the market right now, YA books are usually minimum 60,000. So this particular agent, she gave me some feedback after reading the 51,000 and was like, I'm interested, I'm into the story, it needs to be longer. If you can get it to 65,000 plus, I would love to look at it again.

Dustin Grinnell (00:26:28 --> 00:26:40)
And those, for regular folks, that's called a note. You get notes, and that note is about as general and as broad and as ridiculous as you can hear. Just add 16,000 words or whatever. Yes. Oh, okay.

Sam Cooke (00:26:40 --> 00:26:48)
Because it wasn't like, this is where you can expand on, this is what you can do. These agents are getting— I can't even put a number on how many queries they get a day.

Dustin Grinnell (00:26:48 --> 00:26:52)
We heard 100 in our MFA program. Yeah, that's— we—

Sam Cooke (00:26:52 --> 00:27:00)
that's a basic number. Yeah. So for her to like take the time and be like, there's something here, like add more words to it and I'll read it again—

Dustin Grinnell (00:27:01 --> 00:27:03)
you cracked your knuckles and you're like, let's go.

Sam Cooke (00:27:03 --> 00:27:28)
So at the time it was peak COVID pandemic and I was a teacher, and so I wasn't working, I wasn't actively employed. I was unemployed. So I was like, I have nothing else to do. Why don't I just do this? So I think it was like, I spent, let's say she told me this on a Tuesday. I think by Friday I emailed her back and was like, here you go.

Dustin Grinnell (00:27:28 --> 00:27:31)
Just mad scientist style writing. Yeah.

Sam Cooke (00:27:31 --> 00:28:03)
And I remember telling her something that was exciting for me was that as I was writing, I was still so invested and so excited about the story. It wasn't like, oh, I'm gonna like write this scene because maybe this agent will say yes. She ultimately said no. But I took that experience, that additional 16,000 words, and they made the final cut. And so I had a fuller manuscript. It was more fleshed out.

Dustin Grinnell (00:28:03 --> 00:28:07)
It was better. Was the painting, the scene you just read, was that part of that addition?

Sam Cooke (00:28:07 --> 00:28:08)
That was a new scene, yeah.

Dustin Grinnell (00:28:08 --> 00:28:19)
So there you go, right? So this is how artwork gets made. It's just so random. It might've been a much shorter book without that scene that you love most, without that one email from an agent. Yeah, yeah.

Sam Cooke (00:28:19 --> 00:29:08)
And so in the querying process, I had a lot of like, I liked it, but it's not for me. Or like I had someone say like, This is the hardest no I've had to give lately, but I have to say no. And, you know, they have— it's their livelihood, it's their careers, it's their business to take on what they think they can sell. And at the time, I didn't have anyone that thought they could sell it. So I put it down for a little bit, wrote another novel, and then I was like, I can't not let this book see the light of day. And so I started, I did a very like targeted search and it was like indie publishing houses in Florida. So I ultimately published with White Castle. World Castle. World Castle.

Dustin Grinnell (00:29:08 --> 00:29:10)
We will not be cutting that from this podcast.

Sam Cooke (00:29:11 --> 00:29:14)
You know what's funny is every time I talk about them, I say White Castle.

Dustin Grinnell (00:29:15 --> 00:29:18)
All right, I'm sure they're really happy you're representing them.

Sam Cooke (00:29:18 --> 00:29:21)
Well, White Castle is like a huge Florida chain restaurant.

Dustin Grinnell (00:29:21 --> 00:29:26)
Oh, I know, yeah. A delicious restaurant. 3 Michelin star.

Sam Cooke (00:29:27 --> 00:29:42)
So I ultimately published with Worldcastle Publishing, and they are this, like, indie press that operates out of Florida. And so I was like, what better home for my Florida book?

Dustin Grinnell (00:29:42 --> 00:30:08)
So let's talk about YA, young adult. I know your reading habits, and you absolutely crush books, and they're all YA usually. You know, you read YA, you love YA. YA, you couldn't write anything else, I don't think. Like, you just want to write about young people and the emotional experiences that they have and what it's like to be a teenager. What attracts you to YA and why'd you want to write YA?

Sam Cooke (00:30:08 --> 00:30:52)
I loved reading. I would like ride my bike to the library and check out like 10 books at a time and be like, okay, see you next week. And like would finish all 10 books within a week. And that would just be like my summer, like, habit. And so as I was growing up and like getting older, all of my teachers always said to my mom, Samantha's gonna be a writer.

She loves telling stories. She is so good at it. It was all any like parent-teacher conference, that's what they talked about with my mom. She's gonna be a writer. And I was so lucky that my mom was like, That's really cool.

Dustin Grinnell (00:30:52 --> 00:31:02)
And so rather than someone saying, you can't make any money from that, it's going to be a really uncertain life. Yeah. Maybe you should do something a little bit more safe. Yeah.

Sam Cooke (00:31:02 --> 00:31:07)
So yeah, both of my parents were like, this is cool. No resistance.

Dustin Grinnell (00:31:07 --> 00:31:07)
Yeah.

Sam Cooke (00:31:07 --> 00:31:56)
No, none at all. And like, I talk with like, especially when I was active in the theater community, so many people like tell the story of like, Oh yeah, I like studied theater in college, but my parents made me do like a backup major just in case. And so I met so many people who like had a degree in theater but also business, or, you know, whatever the combo may have been. So I always wanted to be a writer. I loved telling stories, and I started out as a playwright, and I liked it. I had a few pieces produced. But I was like, I'm not reading plays. Like, I don't get joy from sitting down and reading a play. I get joy from sitting down and reading a YA book.

Dustin Grinnell (00:31:57 --> 00:32:03)
It's almost the difference between looking at a skeleton of a human being versus a human being with flesh and beating heart and all that.

Sam Cooke (00:32:03 --> 00:32:03)
Yeah.

Dustin Grinnell (00:32:03 --> 00:32:09)
Reading a play is just— you're just reading action dialogue. That's it. Versus— A book.

Sam Cooke (00:32:09 --> 00:33:44)
It's why I never understood that like your 11th grade English teacher makes you read Shakespeare. Like take me to like see it on stage. And so I also have a background in teaching. And so I was around young people and young adults. And I like, I developed such a passion for being like more or less like an advocate for these teenagers, and I taught middle school, so these middle schoolers who were just like feeling so many things all the time, and so many people just like roll their eyes and they're like, "Ugh, teenagers," or like, "Ugh, God, so dramatic." And it always just infuriated me.

And I just, I knew that like there are some young people that need books and they need it as an escape. Because that's what they were for me. There are young people that like need a story about like going to a beach house because they may never get that experience. That's why like Harry Potter was so, so popular and such a like phenomenon. And so I just knew that like writing YA was what made sense.

It was what I felt most connected to as well. I, like, pride myself on being very empathetic. And so when I'm, like, writing these stories, I can, like, feel it. That, like, "Oh, man, like, I couldn't imagine being 18 and going through this," sort of thing. I think it makes it more truthful.

Dustin Grinnell (00:33:44 --> 00:33:59)
Yeah, it's very authentic. I can tell that you really care. And, you know, this is coming from a place where you want to— actually show these characters going through legitimate experiences emotionally.

Sam Cooke (00:33:59 --> 00:34:18)
I work now in marketing and communications for a charter school, and some of the students I work with are in high school. And one of them a few months ago, like, told me, she was like, I think I want to study creative writing in college. And I was like, and I was like, come sit down, let's chat.

Dustin Grinnell (00:34:18 --> 00:34:24)
Do not go near that profession. Run. Yeah, it will destroy you.

Sam Cooke (00:34:24 --> 00:34:51)
And so, but I thought back to when I was like 17, 18, and like telling my teachers, like, I think I'm gonna study theater and creative writing. And so it was just like, I remember I had one teacher that was like, oh, so you don't wanna make any money? And like laughed about it. But then I like had other teachers that were like, that's perfect for you. That's the perfect fit for you. You're gonna graduate and you're gonna be very happy.

Dustin Grinnell (00:34:52 --> 00:35:32)
And then that— the kind of attitude that you bring to writing, the kind of passion and single-minded purpose you have, I feel like is the only way to actually succeed because it's just too hard if you don't have that. Because think about your 8-year journey, you know, like, of getting this book into publication. Like, it's just— there's a million ways to give up, you know? You could give up after the first draft. You could give up after the 10th draft. You could give up after your MFA program. And I'm just saying, it's like, it takes a lot of guts, you know? It takes a lot of persistence, and you really just have to feel like you're supposed to do this in order to really get it done.

Sam Cooke (00:35:33 --> 00:36:43)
This is probably horrible advice, but you can't have a backup plan. You can't be like, I'm gonna— No plan B. Right. You can't be like, I'm gonna write a book But then be like, in the back of your mind, it's okay if it doesn't work out because I can go do X, Y, and Z instead to make a living. And like, let me be clear, I have— I currently work 2 jobs while also writing. So by no means is like writing my full-time job, but you have to approach it as if it is. When you're sitting down with your story, it's the only thing that matters. And I think that is something that I— again, I think it's because of theater. When you're in a production, when you're, like, in tech week is what it's called, that, like, last week before the show opens, you eat, sleep, and breathe this production. And I think that you need to, like, eat, sleep, and breathe your story because you'd be so surprised where, like, you get ideas. Like, I'll be running on the treadmill and I'm like, "Oh, that's a good idea." And then I have to like keep it in my brain until I'm back somewhere where I can like write down notes.

Dustin Grinnell (00:36:45 --> 00:37:33)
Let's talk about friendship. It's a book, Love Always, Bailey is a book about a group of friends based on your real friend group. You know, I don't read a lot of YA. This may be like one of, you know, a handful of YA books I've read. You know me, I trend toward like the science fiction kind of idea-driven stuff.

So reading your book was— I hadn't read a lot like that. It was very dramatic. It was very like, these are kids going through stuff and they're working through their teenage feelings. And I feel like YA deals a lot in romantic love, you know, kind of boy meets girl kind of stuff. And there is some pairing off in your book, but really it's a story about friendship love.

Dustin Grinnell (00:37:33 --> 00:37:33)
Why that?

Sam Cooke (00:37:34 --> 00:39:52)
And I think as like a society, we sometimes have— we just brush off friendships. You're just, what do you mean everybody has like a best friend? But I am so surprised as an adult how many other adults I meet that are like, yeah, I don't know, I don't have a best friend. Or like, oh yeah, I don't, I don't really talk to that person anymore. And it makes me upset.

And it's because I have been best friends with my two best friends since we were in fourth grade. And we worked so hard to make sure that our relationship as we grew and we changed. We're 3 completely different people. I'm in the arts, one is a pharmacist, one is like a manager at a hospital. We're 3 completely different people with completely different interests.

We don't live near each other. We were so intentional as we grew up and as we got into adulthood to make sure that we talked every day. Even if it were something silly, like, you know, it's the end of the day and you're like texting, "Oh God, I'm so tired. Like, I had such a long day. Talk to you tomorrow," sort of thing.

We were so intentional about that because growing up we were this like unit. We all came from like single parent households. And so like our moms even used to joke like, "Oh, you know, Jenna's mom's gonna take care of you guys tonight. Like Jenna's mom's got dinner covered," or like, Sammy's nana is gonna get everyone fed today, sort of thing. We were such a part of each other's life and, like, growing up.

Dustin Grinnell (00:39:52 --> 00:39:59)
'Cause why should they? What does friendship do for you? What is Jen and Dan? What's that unit? What has it done for you and what does it do to you to this day?

Sam Cooke (00:39:59 --> 00:40:55)
I have a few groups of friends that I can go to for different things. With them, I can go to them for anything and know that what they say to me, what we do, like our memories together, they can cover it all sort of thing. I mean, we— they've just been there for everything. And, you know, my own background, like, when I was in high school, I wasn't, like, laser-focused on dating. I didn't really care about it. I was like, I'd rather— my energy was going to being, like, the star of our theater department. And so, like, I didn't put energy into, like, dating or anything like that. All of my energy was into friendships and building these, like, friendships and relationships. And I think that in adulthood, I think it has made me a much better person.

Dustin Grinnell (00:40:57 --> 00:41:49)
In your book, you know, any friendship goes through ups and downs and disappointments and triumphs and sometimes, like, distance and estrangement, and sometimes they fade away altogether. It just depends. And in your book, it really— you dramatize, like, the biggest possible stress that could happen to a friend group. And it's a major loss, and it's like a nuclear bomb that just goes off in the friend group. And the friend group could have conceivably disintegrated, you know, with ease. But instead, it's really a story about desperately trying to put people back in the same room, in the same beach house so that they can have those uncomfortable conversations and interactions so that maybe they can recover and heal? Yeah.

Sam Cooke (00:41:50 --> 00:42:58)
I think what it is, it's if you think about real life and you think about, you know, a friendship breakup, which is horrible and it feels horrible, or like a romantic breakup, In the back of your head when it happens, I think we as humans, we sort of know like that was eventually gonna happen. And so I think with this story, for these friends to reunite and like work so hard to come back together, I think it's not a denial thing. I think it was just that they all were like, "No, like this is— we're meant to be." together sort of thing. We're meant to be friends. This group is not meant to fall apart over this. And so I, I think it is so much about, like, how humans and, like, people and young adults especially can react to a relationship ending. They were like, no, we're good. We're gonna work through it. We're gonna figure it out.

Dustin Grinnell (00:42:59 --> 00:43:35)
BRANDON: Yeah, it's not just a book about managing grief and dealing with trauma. It's a book about change and how to deal with change. And that's like, in their case, they went away to college and some friends made new friends outside of the friend group. And— but Morgan takes it pretty hard, you know, she takes that change to the group geographically geographic distance between them, she takes it really hard, you know? She has trouble with the fact that she's just not hearing from her friends as much. And so this is a book about change and how to manage change within a friend group.

Sam Cooke (00:43:35 --> 00:45:06)
I think for young adults, especially when you're, you know, 17, 18, 19, no matter what you choose to do after high school, it's very rare that you're going to be doing it alongside someone that you went to high school with. You know, if you go off to college, if you join the forces, if you go straight to work, like, you're doing it alone. And so I know myself, like, I thrive on close relationships. And so, like, for Morgan, I think she was like, okay, like, yeah, we're all going to different colleges. We're all doing, like, different things.

But, like, I'm all set. Like, I have friends. I don't need new friends. I think that out of all of them, she went into her, like, freshman year of college experience, like, sort of not stuck in the past because it's not that she was, like, refusing to go to class or, like, refusing to try anything. I think it was just like, she was like, yeah, but why?

Why do I need to make new friends when I have them? Why do I need to go try this club when I already know that I don't like it? Sort of thing. And I think out of the 6 of them, she is more dependent on the others than the others are dependent on each other. If that makes sense.

Dustin Grinnell (00:45:07 --> 00:45:46)
One of the things you do in the book, it's like kind of an interesting device is this idea of starting chapters with texts. And these are texts from Morgan to her best friend, Bailey. And yeah, she texts and is not getting responses from her friend, and we're not exactly sure why. But she says, one text she sends to Bailey is, "We always said we'd never have to go through the hard stuff alone." She doesn't get a response. So Morgan sends another text and she says, this is the hard stuff. What does that mean to, if you're going through difficult times, what does it mean to have your friend by your side or not by your side?

Sam Cooke (00:45:46 --> 00:47:50)
But you have to have people that are in your corner. You have to have people that are like rooting for you, even if it's from afar. And so I think for Morgan to be going through this hard time and to not have the complete group, I think it's really hard for her, and she doesn't understand why. And that is what I find to be, like, the most heartbreaking about it, is that she doesn't understand why things had to change. She doesn't understand why they are where they are, why this friend group is acting how they are acting now.

But I think it's so important to have your friends there going through the hard stuff because I find if I'm going through something very difficult and I'm venting to Jen or Jenna, they have a good way of reminding me, like, you're not always gonna feel this way. It's not always the hard stuff. And so to have a friend or a person there for you during the really fun stuff, you know, the vacations, the concerts, the beach trips, That's wonderful. Those memories are amazing. But what makes those memories even better is having someone who's there for you when you lose your job, when you get broken up with, when you total your car, like through the bad stuff.

Dustin Grinnell (00:47:51 --> 00:48:23)
Yeah, there's a lot that's been written about, like, what's the best way to help someone through grieving? And, you know, there's always articles like, don't offer advice, don't say everything's gonna be okay. Like, all these don'ts, like, because it's not helpful and it invalidates someone or doesn't make them feel any better or whatever. Like, as you researched, like, complicated grief and you, like, lived with these characters, did you have a sense of what people who are grieving want to hear and don't want to hear?

Sam Cooke (00:48:23 --> 00:49:09)
You know, I can't, like, speak to what anyone who has ever grieved wants to hear, but I think the, like, medicine for it all is just having someone physically there with you, physically in a space, physically in the room with you. And I just find that if, you know, if you're, like, going through something like very upsetting. My grandmother passed away over the summer, and I remember I like found out she died, was obviously very upset, and then I was like, I need to go to Florida because I knew that I wanted to be with Jen and Jenna. I knew that like, obviously wanted to be with my family, my sisters, blah, blah, blah. But I knew that like being with them would just comfort me.

Dustin Grinnell (00:49:09 --> 00:49:10)
[Speaker] Did it?

Sam Cooke (00:49:10 --> 00:49:12)
It did, yeah. Yeah.

Dustin Grinnell (00:49:12 --> 00:49:13)
How so?

Sam Cooke (00:49:13 --> 00:49:50)
In that case specifically, it was because they knew my Nana so well that for them it was also a loss that, you know, they grew up with her as like a permanent fixture in their own lives. So we all got to like grieve together in a way that I didn't grieve with my sisters, if that makes sense. It was like devastating and heartbreaking for me and my sisters, but with Jen and Jenna, they had this like good way of being like, "Oh, I'm just like thinking about we'd be in the pool and Nana would come out with like cucumber sandwiches and force us to eat," sort of thing. Hmm.

Dustin Grinnell (00:49:52 --> 00:49:59)
Why mental health in your writing? Like, why is that something you want to deal with?

Sam Cooke (00:49:59 --> 00:50:24)
I don't think it was on purpose. I think it shaped itself that way because I write from such an emotional standpoint. I have characters that go through very emotional situations. And so I think you can't write about that without some sort of component of mental health in the story.

Dustin Grinnell (00:50:25 --> 00:50:29)
People who are reading it, what do you hope they take away from it?

Sam Cooke (00:50:29 --> 00:50:56)
I think I just want people to either read it and be reminded of, like, their own friend group or their own childhood friend, or, you know, if it's not a friend, someone that they had this, like, very deep relationship with. And I think that if it— if I wanted it to, like, quote unquote, teach a lesson, it would be that, like, you don't have to, like, go through the hard stuff alone.

Dustin Grinnell (00:50:57 --> 00:52:29)
I played sports, you did theater, and so on and so forth. And but one of the things too is like our writing processes were different. So I came into the program like a strict outliner of stories. I had self-published two novels, and my third book, while I was working on the Empathy Academy, I already had it outlined. So I had a 70-page outline.

So chapter one, this happens, they're there, they say this, blah, blah, blah. And then, you know, I put it together, and that's called, you know, in the writing world, they call it like plotters versus pantsers. And plotters, what I was doing, I was plotting it out. And pantsers are people who quote unquote write by the seat of their pants. They just let it rip.

And like, I had never met a pantser. And when I met you, I was like, what? They exist. You write by the seat of your pants. And it was like, it blew my mind.

I mean, I gave you a lot of shit for it. I was like, that is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Like, why wouldn't you architect out your whole story so that you can like set this up and you can like You can give this red herring, and you can, like, plan out 3 different endings, and then you can make a choice about which is the right one. And so I was like, I gave you so much shit. But yeah, talk about being a pantser.

Sam Cooke (00:52:29 --> 00:52:40)
And it's so funny. I remember, like, one of my first workshops. So for, like, context, in workshop, you email to your workshop cohort X amount of pages.

Dustin Grinnell (00:52:40 --> 00:52:41)
These are other writers? Yeah.

Sam Cooke (00:52:42 --> 00:54:33)
And I was like, what? And I was like, I haven't written an outline since middle school, writing like an essay about like World War II. World War II. Yeah, right. And I remember I was the new girl, so everyone in the my YA cohort had known each other by like a year.

I was like behind them by like a year. And we were doing my pages and I remember someone asked like, you know, I can't recall what the actual question was, but I was like, "Oh, I don't know yet." And they were like, "What do you mean you don't know yet?" And I was like, "Oh, well, I don't outline." And everyone was like, "Oh!" It was like the biggest shock in the world and like, I just don't. I can't. I think it's because when I get an idea, I just want to start going. I just so badly want to, like, get to it.

And, you know, with this book, I knew how it was gonna end. I knew the, like, major plot points. I didn't know how I was gonna get there. There was, like, so many iterations of the draft where, like, you know, the big reveal was leading up to it, it was way too obvious. And, you know, if I had outlined, maybe it wouldn't have been way too obvious.

Dustin Grinnell (00:54:34 --> 00:55:25)
But like anything, strength has its weaknesses, and where there's a pro, there's a con. And there's pros and cons to pantsers versus plotters. Like, for plotting, when you plot it out, when you architect the whole thing out, it feels good because you know, like, oh, the story's like mapped and it's organized. And so you have to just sit down and kind of like write the scene from your reference outline. And so it was a feeling of comfortable, you're comfortable. And but the con is that like, it can lead to a story that's kind of stilted, and things can kind of like, feel a little not as alive. There's not as much electricity in it. Versus like, if you're a pantser, and you're just, you're discovering it right there, there's a kind of heat to it. And it's kind of like, ooh, like a discovery that you made as the author, and it sort of shows on the page. Yeah.

Sam Cooke (00:55:25 --> 00:55:42)
And I find that if I, like, were to sit down and work backwards and outline from how I knew the story wanted to end to how it was going to begin, I don't think it would have been as truthful. And I also don't think I would have had fun writing it.

Dustin Grinnell (00:55:42 --> 00:55:44)
I was just going to say that. Yeah.

Sam Cooke (00:55:44 --> 00:56:12)
I have a lot of fun when I sit down and write. I really do. And I'm not like, okay, I have to sit down and get 1,000 words today because that's what I told myself I would do. I get excited. You know, I sit down when I'm in an excited mood to write. And so I think outlining to me, it just doesn't sound exciting. It sounds kind of boring. And also like, so how long did it take you to do your 70-page outline? Do you remember?

Dustin Grinnell (00:56:12 --> 00:56:14)
Well, yeah, 3 months, right?

Sam Cooke (00:56:14 --> 00:56:17)
So for me, I'm like, 3 months, I could have had the first draft done.

Dustin Grinnell (00:56:17 --> 00:56:44)
But then I did the first draft in like, 4 months rather than 6 or 8 or a year, right? Because it's like you basically just, you know, point A to point B. Right. So it goes faster. Right. And also, here's the thing, I think it leads to less revision in the sense that, like, okay, like, you've already worked out those 3 different endings and you pick the one that's most logical rather than if you just had written it out. Now you're gonna have to just sort of delete that ending and write another.

Sam Cooke (00:56:45 --> 00:57:30)
It's a shot in the dark. And, you know, if I were a thriller writer or a horror or a mystery writer, I would have to outline because there's so many little nuggets that you put in those stories. This one, Love Always, Bailey, does have some nuggets in it, but in the first draft, they weren't there. I went back and added them while I was writing the first draft, knowing that I was going to have to go back and find a place to put these nuggets in. And I think for me, doing it that way, it just felt more natural. I didn't follow some sort of like, in chapter 7, the characters must reveal this or that sort of thing. I went back and I did it where it felt natural.

Dustin Grinnell (00:57:30 --> 00:58:25)
You know, when you really get down to it, it is an intrinsically satisfying activity. You know? Yeah. When you're doing it, you're like, "Oh, I'm inventing. Like, I'm building a world.

I'm making something completely new that's personal to me and that may excite someone else someday. And these are my— these are the ideas I want to work out. And I'm getting to express myself." And That is the joy of creativity. And I think that's what— I think writers, we don't talk about that enough. It's like, you call it fun.

It's fun for you. It's, like, joyful to actually make things on paper. And it actually can be. I mean, that's why we keep doing it, because it actually feels good. Right.

Sam Cooke (00:58:26 --> 00:59:11)
I— in undergrad, I remember I had a professor who, at the beginning of this creative nonfiction class, she asked everybody to write, like, a— 3-sentence, like, micro essay about why you write. And I remember everyone was being so poetic about it. Like, it's what is drawn to my soul sort of thing. And I remember I was just like, because it's fun, because I like it. Like, those 2 reasons should be reason enough to do something.

I don't think that you should have to, like, expand on that. I like to write because I have fun doing it. And I like to write because I like to tell stories. When I was a kid, I liked to write because teachers tell me I'm good at it. Right.

Dustin Grinnell (00:59:11 --> 00:59:14)
Yeah. And we want to do things we're strong at. Right. Exercise our talents. Yeah.

Sam Cooke (00:59:14 --> 00:59:29)
Right. And so, you know, as I've gotten older and, like, continue to write, you know, I'm working on my fourth novel. It is still fun and it is still something that, like, brings me joy to do.

Dustin Grinnell (00:59:30 --> 01:00:21)
It's funny because, like I explained, like, we crossed paths in our MFA program and we were different. We came from different backgrounds and had different writing processes. And but I will say, like, I took up your process in the program, you know, and I think it was part of my falling back in love with writing because I came into that program And I just come back from California and like, I was trying to write screenplays and it just like wasn't working. And I came back and I just had to get this day job and like be a corporate guy again, you know? And I was like, oh man, this sucks.

And like part of doing the MFA was a little bit like, I need to kick myself back in the pants. I need to figure out why I actually like doing this. You know, 'cause the first two, I already did first two. So I went through the whole thing. I figured out a lot of stuff.

Sam Cooke (01:00:21 --> 01:00:22)
Been there, done that sort of thing.

Dustin Grinnell (01:00:22 --> 01:01:30)
So I needed to do another one. I needed to be like, okay, why am I actually doing this? And I remember I said of the program, I said, I'm gonna experiment. Like, I'm gonna write a short story, I'm gonna write poems, I'm gonna write a play, I'm gonna do a bunch of stuff. And what I did was I fell back in love with writing. Like, and one of the reasons why is because I did try your process, which is like, sit down, write. And I remember the day I wrote the short story "A Case of Aphantasia" on a Sunday, and that is one of the short stories in my collection, "The Healing Book." And I wrote the whole thing in one day, just by the seat of my pants, no plan. I just woke up and I started writing on my phone over coffee. 2 hours went by, I had like a quarter of a story, and then I ended up going to like a Mexican restaurant, like Felipe's in Harvard Square, and I was just on fire. And I just like had a margarita and I just said, "Fuck it, let's go." And I just, I made an invention that day, and it was like I was in my own little world of creation, and your process kicks ass. And it would totally, I was like, holy shit, that just happened? Or, oh, maybe I could go that way.

Sam Cooke (01:01:30 --> 01:01:43)
Yeah, I think very highly of it, and I do have to speak highly of the mentors that we had in our MFA program, because when they all found out that I didn't outline, not one of them was like, now Sam, you really should be outlining.

Dustin Grinnell (01:01:43 --> 01:01:49)
Our professors are professional writers. They are published writers, so yeah, they know exactly. What's up?

Sam Cooke (01:01:49 --> 01:02:03)
And so to like be in a space where you're just like, go crazy. Like that's how I look at it. There's a delete button. If you write something and then the next day it doesn't make sense, backspace.

Dustin Grinnell (01:02:04 --> 01:02:07)
Like, or put it in your outtakes folder. Yeah.

Sam Cooke (01:02:07 --> 01:02:09)
Yeah. No, I don't even do that. I backspace.

Dustin Grinnell (01:02:09 --> 01:02:15)
There's a little trick I do. I copy it and I don't delete anything. I put it in its outtakes document. I never use it.

Sam Cooke (01:02:16 --> 01:02:16)
But it's still there.

Dustin Grinnell (01:02:16 --> 01:02:24)
But it's the same as the recycling bin. It's like a comfort. It's a psychological thing. Well, you know, it's like I didn't kill it fully. Yeah.

Sam Cooke (01:02:24 --> 01:02:57)
But I find that like not outlining and just like sitting down and writing, you get to like remember why you love to tell stories. And as someone who has never outlined before, I can't really speak to the other process, But the way that I do it, it works for me. And it, like, keeps me, like, in love with the idea of my story, with characters, with plots, with scenes. That's why I do it. Yeah.

Dustin Grinnell (01:02:57 --> 01:03:52)
It just— I remember the movie Sideways. I love that movie. And it's about a writer who— I think he teaches English or something, and he's trying to He wrote his book and he has an agent, agent trying to sell it and he's just having a tough time. And he goes to this party and he has a conversation with a guy. He's— the guy is supposed to be playing like a, you know, conventional, you know, lawyer, whatever, left-brain type or something that couldn't possibly understand the value of art and humanities or something. And he asked the main character, the writer, he's like, you know, why Why would I read fiction when it's fake? Why don't I just read nonfiction because it's not made up, right? And it was like a little bit, well, yeah, you got kind of a point there, but also, wow, you don't really understand the power of storytelling?

Sam Cooke (01:03:53 --> 01:04:30)
Or like escaping into a story. Like, if I had a busy week at work, I don't want to then sit down on the weekend and like read a book about a woman who works in marketing who had a busy week. I want to sit down and read a book about, like most recently, well, most recently I just finished your short story collection. So let's say like most recently I want to read a book about a scientist. I want just like, so not escape from my life, but just like, go to a new world. Yeah.

Dustin Grinnell (01:04:30 --> 01:04:30)
Yeah.

Sam Cooke (01:04:30 --> 01:04:32)
Go to a new experience, like—

Dustin Grinnell (01:04:32 --> 01:04:40)
With new people. Yeah. People that you wouldn't normally interact with. Yeah. Going through experiences that you may never in your lifetime go through.

Sam Cooke (01:04:40 --> 01:04:50)
It's why I love so deeply the hit reality show Married at First Sight. Right. Because I'm never gonna do that. I'm never gonna go through that experience, but—

Dustin Grinnell (01:04:50 --> 01:04:51)
Never say never.

Sam Cooke (01:04:51 --> 01:04:55)
Well, they were in Boston. A few years ago casting.

Dustin Grinnell (01:04:55 --> 01:05:21)
So we'll see, maybe they'll come back around. So, you know, a lot of times when you publish something, people who are aspiring writers, they ask you, do you have any advice? You know, how did you do that? And what are you— what kind of is your biggest advice for someone who wants to write a book and doesn't know where to start? Or doesn't know how to finish or so forth.

Sam Cooke (01:05:21 --> 01:06:06)
As far as craft advice, figure out what it is you like to read because that's what you're gonna want to write. You know, I like to read like mysteries every now and then, and I do remember I sat down once with an idea for a mystery story and was like, hmm, it's not working. So find out what you really love to read And then just do it. Like, I don't have any, like, wake up at 6:00 AM and just sit at the computer and start going. Like, I don't, I just grew up with this, like, very strong work ethic instilled in me. And so it was like, okay, you like wake up and you do it.

Dustin Grinnell (01:06:07 --> 01:06:25)
And that's great that that works for you. There is another way to do it. You can just treat it like a job almost. That's my biggest advice, which is like sit down at a predetermined period every day and try to get some momentum. Try to get 750 words. Yeah, definitely. Make a little calendar if it helps, but yeah.

Sam Cooke (01:06:25 --> 01:06:58)
And I do think like setting micro goals for yourself, like don't look at it as like, okay, I'm gonna write a 70,000-word book. Look at it as like every Monday I'm gonna get 500 words and then go from there because it's hard. It's not easy to, like, sit down and, like, crank everything out. And also, like, just accept the fact that it's not going to be perfect and it's going to take time and you're going to have to go through the same pages over and over and you're going to have to, like, make hard choices. Yeah.

Dustin Grinnell (01:06:58 --> 01:07:59)
And I think the big spill is a really good metaphor. I don't know. Like, because I think that's the best way to approach it, especially fiction. Because you just gotta just spit it out. And like, don't worry about how the sentences are coming together yet.

You could put down 2 or 3 pages and you're like, "Yeah, that— I'm gonna need to tighten all that up," or— "not even quite sure if it's like, if I need that part right there." It doesn't matter. Just spit it out. And that takes away the fear. You know, that takes away the perfectionism. And just get it out on the page because then you have something to work with later.

Sam Cooke (01:07:59 --> 01:09:16)
So finding people, and you have to be very intentional about it. You have to like, you don't have to be like besties with the person, but it needs to be like a group of people whose opinions and feedback you value. You don't have to necessarily agree with everything that they're gonna tell you, but you do have to value and respect them as people. And I think that's very important. I think also it's important to get people to read your early drafts, get readers to read them, not other writers, because other writers will help you pick out the, like, you know, the sentence structure and, like, the flaws there, but the readers will give you, like, gut reaction. I have a friend who— she just finished Love Always, Bailey, like, this week, and I saw her, like, throughout the her reading process, and she would like come up to me and she would try to guess what was going on with the friend group and like what the big mystery was. And when she did get to the like big aha moment, I saw her the next day and she was like, oh my gosh. She was like, I kind of knew it, but I kept telling myself that there was no way that that's what it was. And she's not a writer. She's just someone who like really loves reading.

Dustin Grinnell (01:09:16 --> 01:09:51)
And so find people who really love to read because their reactions, I think, will help you be like, "Oh yeah, that doesn't make sense there." Yeah, I think the old adage is like, if a certain amount of people, 2 or 3 people tell you something's not working, trust it, but don't trust where they tell you it's not working. Yeah. You know, just know if 2 or 3 people say something about, you know, the ending and they tell you ways to fix it, don't worry about the ways to fix it, that's your choice, but you just have to know that everyone's intuition is saying something wrong and then you have to fix it.

Sam Cooke (01:09:51 --> 01:10:31)
Yeah, I think the like biggest compliment I got in the writing process, and I know it's not about compliments and like accolades, but it was in the MFA program. And I, you know, I had some people that were like, I don't think the story is gonna work. And my mentor at the time was Brendan Kiely, who is a YA author. I remember he said to me, he was like, you gotta keep going. He was like, you think that the story is gonna work, so you work at it until it doesn't. And it— I remember when I, like, sent him the final, my, like, creative thesis of it, he was like, "I'm really glad that you trusted your gut." It's funny because I gave you so much shit about that.

Dustin Grinnell (01:10:31 --> 01:10:43)
Like, the first night you told me that the way Morgan is reacting to what happens in that story, I was like, "No way." There's no way. There's no way someone— That doesn't sound plausible. Like, I felt—

Sam Cooke (01:10:44 --> 01:10:45)
And I get that, I do.

Dustin Grinnell (01:10:45 --> 01:10:52)
But it worked. I read the book and I was like, you know what? You made it plausible. You made it seem realistic. That's a major craft challenge.

Sam Cooke (01:10:53 --> 01:10:58)
Well, what it is, is I think that, yes, it was. It was really hard to do, but I think—

Dustin Grinnell (01:10:58 --> 01:11:00)
It's a light touch, kind of measuring it out.

Sam Cooke (01:11:00 --> 01:11:36)
It's a light touch, but it's also, you have to create this friendship and this group of characters that as you're reading it, you're like, damn, maybe I would react like that. Because you see these characters love each other so much, and they just have, like, the best memories together. They have, like, plans for their futures together. And I think setting that up, it makes it believable that when the big reveal happens and you see, like, all of this time how Morgan's been reacting, you get it. You're like, I would do the same thing.

Dustin Grinnell (01:11:38 --> 01:12:29)
The big reveal happens, and you have maybe like the last 2/10 of the book or something with Morgan in a clear headspace, kind of picking up the pieces. And, you know, not to give anything away, but she gets— she comes to a certain understanding of what happened, and she's seeing reality clearly. And, you know, damn it, I think she recovered as much as one can recover from something so traumatic. And the good news is, the group recovered and the family members around them got better. And, like, you, like, landed the plane really gracefully in a place where it wasn't, like, so sweet. But it was complicated. It was a complicated resolution for the character's, like, emotional state.

Sam Cooke (01:12:30 --> 01:12:33)
Yeah, I'm not a big fan of happy endings.

Dustin Grinnell (01:12:33 --> 01:12:35)
The bow tie, like, tying them out.

Sam Cooke (01:12:35 --> 01:13:22)
I'm a big fan of, like, hopeful endings. So I feel like when this story ends, you, like, you know, you're maybe sad. It's a sad story. But you are like, "Okay, like, I feel good. I feel like I can, like, leave these characters." I remember my high school theater teacher, she— when we would be, like, elbow deep in a production, we used to do, like, during rehearsal, we would have, like, a 20-minute, like, discussion about the script in the middle of rehearsal. So we've already blocked the show. We've probably ran through the show a few times. And we would talk about, as a cast, if the playwright were to expand this for 5 more pages, how would the characters be?

Dustin Grinnell (01:13:22 --> 01:13:25)
Extend the story beyond the conclusion. Yeah. Right.

Sam Cooke (01:13:25 --> 01:14:02)
And we did that specifically with the play The Diviners. Which has just, like, a devastating ending. Like, the main character drowns. And so it was, like, speaking of, like, what would happen next. And so I think that's something that I've always carried with me is, like, you have to leave it in a situation where the reader can feel good about what's gonna happen to the characters. 'Cause you can't, like— you can't go through something like this group went through and then at the end be like, "Okay, everyone's good. Like, everyone's better." Morgan's going back to college, like—

Dustin Grinnell (01:14:02 --> 01:14:09)
No, it would not ring true. We know that grief is complicated. We know that, you know—

Sam Cooke (01:14:09 --> 01:14:24)
A big thing in the book, too, is that the house is for sale. So that's also, like, looming over them. It's their last time in the house. And, like, spoiler alert, the house sells at the end of the book. They're never going back to that house, not as it being their home.

Dustin Grinnell (01:14:24 --> 01:14:29)
And that was one thing that Uncle Daniel, that was one way that he dealt with grief. Because he—

Sam Cooke (01:14:29 --> 01:14:30)
He got rid of the house.

Dustin Grinnell (01:14:30 --> 01:14:44)
'Cause he thought, and Morgan gave him crap in the sense, or someone does, and it's just like, "We should always have this house for our kids." But that was the way he wanted a fresh start. And that was just the way he dealt with it. Yeah. Yeah.

Sam Cooke (01:14:44 --> 01:14:48)
Yeah. And so I think, like, it was so— I wanted them to keep the house so badly.

Dustin Grinnell (01:14:48 --> 01:14:49)
And I thought you were gonna.

Sam Cooke (01:14:49 --> 01:15:05)
That was my— I think that was the one thing that I go back and forth still. Like, maybe they should have kept the house, but— It's not realistic. He's so set in— The house has sold by the time the kids get there. They're there secretly. So, like—

Dustin Grinnell (01:15:05 --> 01:15:57)
But playing what you just said, this— I don't know, this device of, like, playing out the story after it ends is a good way to, like, kind of, I don't know, just imagine the story or make choices within the current story. Like, If I do that with this book, with Love Always, Bailey, I can picture out the next 5 to 10 years, no doubt about it. Like, they're gonna get a new house. It's a new house on the beach. It's gonna be like the Highview. And they're gonna start bringing their kids there, just like you do in real life. Yeah, I think that's pretty much— That's sweet. And that's based on the raw material of the book, the raw material of the story and the characters. I get a sense that that is their trajectory. And they're always going to be together. And they're going to find a new Highview. You know, that's what you set up without doing it actually on the page, which would kind of have been, like, on the nose.

Sam Cooke (01:15:58 --> 01:16:33)
I think it, like, speaks to the, like, you know, the sign that you see in people's kitchens on, like, wood. Like, "Home is not a place, it's a feeling." Barf. I know. It's gross. But I think it's true. Like, I think in this case it's true. They make this huge deal about the Highview. And it's funny because the real Highview is what— inspired the story to begin with. But at the end of the book, at the end of the day, they're like, "Oh, we don't need the house to, like, love each other, to be with each other, to, like, continue to grow." Yeah.

Dustin Grinnell (01:16:33 --> 01:16:36)
They don't even have to be in the same place. And they're—

Sam Cooke (01:16:36 --> 01:16:39)
I mean, in real life, we're not. You're not.

Dustin Grinnell (01:16:39 --> 01:17:00)
Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, we've just got a couple minutes left. Like, you said that, you know, you're working on your fourth book now. That means you have 2 manuscripts that you're trying to find representation for or find a publisher, and you're working on your 4th. Where are things going? Like, can you talk about that story you're working on now? Like, what are you excited— what are you most excited about right now?

Sam Cooke (01:17:01 --> 01:17:07)
I am most excited right now about having a Jersey Mike's sub.

Dustin Grinnell (01:17:07 --> 01:17:07)
Yeah.

Sam Cooke (01:17:07 --> 01:17:09)
In like an hour and a half. Yeah.

Dustin Grinnell (01:17:09 --> 01:17:09)
Yeah.

Sam Cooke (01:17:09 --> 01:17:17)
No, I'm actually— I think so. This Novels 2 and 3 are completely different from this. Both YA.

Dustin Grinnell (01:17:17 --> 01:17:18)
Both YA.

Sam Cooke (01:17:18 --> 01:17:54)
Both take place in Florida. Shocker. One of them is like the movie The Wedding Singer meets the movie The Wedding Planner. It's about like a wedding planner's daughter who falls for the lead singer of one of the wedding bands. So it's like kind of romantic relationship. And then the other one is about a young girl in extreme poverty who has to go live in a motel with her mom and her brother after her dad leaves the family due to addiction. So two very different stories, but—

Dustin Grinnell (01:17:54 --> 01:18:01)
And if there are any agents listening, there are no agents listening, those are ready to go. They're ready. Just one email away.

Sam Cooke (01:18:01 --> 01:18:05)
I'll even add 20,000 more words again just to see what happens.

Dustin Grinnell (01:18:05 --> 01:18:07)
In a 4-day I'll quit my job.

Sam Cooke (01:18:08 --> 01:18:12)
I'll go on sabbatical. I would. I wouldn't quit my job, but—

Dustin Grinnell (01:18:12 --> 01:18:14)
Yeah, but you like your job, so.

Sam Cooke (01:18:14 --> 01:18:27)
I love my job. That's another thing. If you're writing, this is another piece of advice, and you have to get a day job, don't get a day job that makes you miserable because your mood just carries over.

Dustin Grinnell (01:18:28 --> 01:18:52)
Sure too, and the day job is material for, it's grist for the mill for your writing. There's plenty of stuff I've written about corporate America and just hit them with a sledgehammer. I had to go through, ridiculous crap to get that material. So yeah, art informs life, life informs art. Yeah. Now get a day job. I mean, some people get day jobs that are wacky, you know, like hotel night manager or something just so they can have that material. And if you want to go that route, go that route.

Sam Cooke (01:18:52 --> 01:19:06)
Yeah. And so what's next for me? I think the fourth novel is in like the earliest stages. Like if you asked me right now, I wouldn't even really be able to tell you what like the protagonist's name is. Like, I don't remember, sort of thing.

Dustin Grinnell (01:19:06 --> 01:19:08)
Let's call him Jordan. Yeah, sure.

Sam Cooke (01:19:08 --> 01:19:20)
Okay. But it's just like, I'm excited still to like keep thinking of stories. I don't think that I'll ever run out of ideas because I have a crazy brain that never shuts off.

Dustin Grinnell (01:19:20 --> 01:19:43)
Well, the thing is, is I know that my experience is that I have way more stories that I'll ever get to in my current lifetime. Like, I have folders with folders on folders folded for days, and they've got really interesting premises in them. And boy, I wish I had, I don't know, 250 years to do it. Not gonna. So you have to like triage them a little bit. Oh, do I want to invest a year of my life on this one? Okay. Yeah, that's a big decision.

Sam Cooke (01:19:43 --> 01:20:15)
I went through like a phase of wanting to really write like a summer camp story. And I did, and I got like 15,000 words in and I was like, I'm over it. And so that was one of those ideas that like sounded really fun, but just didn't pan out. So I think I feel very lucky to be excited and not to be like, "Woe is me, I don't have an agent," or, "Woe is me, I'm not a household name yet." Whoa, cut scene.

Dustin Grinnell (01:20:17 --> 01:20:29)
Yeah, the last thing I would say too is we've been talking about this stuff for a long time and we talk about this idea of getting an agent and then our lives would change because they'll sell the book to HarperCollins and we'll actually—

Sam Cooke (01:20:29 --> 01:20:30)
We get like Dan Brown money.

Dustin Grinnell (01:20:30 --> 01:20:59)
Yeah, you get— well, probably not. Probably get $10,000 advance, and then over a period of— whatever. You know, we still need a job. There's plenty of New York Times bestseller lists that have a job still, so. But the thing I like to think about is like, the cavalry is not coming. It's not coming. You're not gonna get an email out of nowhere from an agent that says, "I want to represent you." I feel like you just gotta pump books out. You gotta get content out. You've gotta— as much as I want to punch my own self in the face, you have to like build your own brand.

Sam Cooke (01:20:59 --> 01:21:02)
You have to like— Also like prove your, not your worth.

Dustin Grinnell (01:21:02 --> 01:21:03)
Get in the marketplace.

Sam Cooke (01:21:03 --> 01:21:07)
Yeah, but prove that people wanna hear the stories you have to tell.

Dustin Grinnell (01:21:07 --> 01:21:28)
And then I get the sense that it's gonna come back to us. Like, I don't know, you know? Yeah. And that's the way it is. Just write your ass off, get in the marketplace of ideas, and let the chips fall where they may. I wanna cut off my right hand more than I wanna email an agent right now. Yeah. And submit my query letter to 75 people who will never get back to me, right?

Sam Cooke (01:21:28 --> 01:21:32)
Who might not even, Open the email because it gets sent to you.

Dustin Grinnell (01:21:32 --> 01:21:54)
Let's just make podcast episodes and write books and whatever, you know, like, so yeah, the cavalry is not coming. You know, you have to create your own opportunities. It's all about initiative. And, you know, so that's what I would say. Yeah. Thank you for coming to my TED Talk about the power of initiative, the transformative power of believing in yourself because the cavalry is not coming. A super long title.

Sam Cooke (01:21:54 --> 01:22:03)
I think that if you were to, like, rent out Copley Square, Copley Plaza Hotel, and do a— talk, I think you'd sell it out. Yeah.

Dustin Grinnell (01:22:03 --> 01:22:31)
Let me take you up on that. Yeah. We are going to leave it there. Yep. Man, good talking.

You wrote a great book. Thank you. And a lot of people are enjoying it right now. If you read it, leave a review on Amazon. It helps.

Sam Cooke (01:22:31 --> 01:22:33)
It's been a hoot. I had so much fun.

Dustin Grinnell (01:22:35 --> 01:22:58)
Thanks for listening to this episode of Curiously. I hope you enjoyed this conversation with Sam Cooke, author of the new novel Love Always, Bailey. If you're enjoying this podcast, please consider leaving a review. They encourage people to listen and help attract great guests. If you like what you've been hearing and would like to sponsor the podcast, please consider supporting me on my Patreon account. Thanks again for listening. Stay tuned for more conversations with people I meet along the way.