Feb. 17, 2021
CD9: Bitcoin Transactions, Mempools, and Self Hosting with @wiz and @softsimon_
EPISODE: 0.0.9
BLOCK: 670895
PRICE: 2055 sats per dollar
TOPICS: Transaction Fees, Mempools, and Self Hosting
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00:00 - Bitcoin price surge and its impact
19:39 - The importance of the mempool and transaction fees
35:49 - The rise of self-hosted Bitcoin solutions
49:16 - Funding open source work and the role of sponsors
50:06 - Bootstraping the website and the sponsor program
51:47 - Bitcoin's impact on open source funding
54:53 - The threefold impact of Bitcoin on open source funding
56:27 - The Bisk project and its compensation model
01:00:25 - The importance of privacy and censorship resistance in open source projects
01:02:08 - The benefits and challenges of using Liquid as a layer 2 solution
01:27:16 - The resilience of Bitcoin and its potential to appreciate in value
01:31:23 - The impossibility of killing Bitcoin and the potential attacks it may face
01:35:36 - Nation states and their potential impact on Bitcoin
01:41:15 - Competition between central bank digital currencies and Bitcoin
02:08:53 - Importance of Bisk as a decentralized exchange
02:21:43 - Different payment methods: Zelle, postal money order
02:22:14 - Postal order attack on BISK in America
02:23:08 - Postal money order as a hack of the legacy fiat system
02:26:54 - The process of using Western Union
02:32:48 - The future of Bitcoin fees and the scarcity of block space
02:39:05 - The importance of running a full node and the lessons learned
02:43:06 - Price prediction for next week
WEBVTT
NOTE
Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 3/17/2024 4:34:24 PM
Duration: 10354.887
Channels: 1
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$50,000
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level just a short time ago. It's now up more than 70%
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since January
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first. So,
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it's come off a little bit right under that 50,000 mark, but
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pretty extraordinary run,
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no matter how you look at it. Joe?
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I just wish,
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I wish we knew all I wish we could see into the future, Andrew, because I. All you need to do, you you take the total
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global financial system.
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Right? Figure out what that is,
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and then divide it by 21,000,000.
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Well, first, take the total financial system and decide what percentage of that could someday be crypto related or or or Right. Where crypto could be Bitcoin play a role.
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Right. Or Bitcoin related. Then divide that by 21,000,000,
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and that's where you get some scary numbers. And I don't know if they're
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legit or or
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but at the same time, you worry about individual countries
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and governments,
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you know, that that have a huge vested interest. For example, the United States and the dollar remaining the reserve currency. So what do they do when it becomes clear? Or or if it starts to look like you you're you're not having control, which maybe it's already starting to look like that, isn't it? What do they do? They can do whatever they want, can't they, or can they? What's the
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what's the number at which it gets out of control? And is it the number that the price of Bitcoin which is out of control, or is it
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the distribution
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of Bitcoin? Meaning, it's still held in in in only a few hands on a relative basis to to the country. And so that's to me what you should be looking for because you can buy you can you can buy half a Bitcoin. You could buy a 10th of a Bitcoin.
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And what what if it really to me, escape velocity is not necessarily
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the price itself,
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but just how many holders there are.
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Right. Well, a lot of peep you know, I've seen some crazy stuff where people write in it. It's not a fixed number.
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It's not 21,000,000
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that because you can divide each one into and that's where you go. Okay. You just need to go back to, you know, you know,
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elementary school level math because I I'm not even gonna have a conversation,
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because there are 21,000,000.
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Whether you split them up or not, it's 21,000,000.
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So I don't know. I don't
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it's fixed. And if it has inherent value, then you can make a case of what Novogratz say, a 100,000.
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Other people, I think the Winklevov said a half, you know, half a1000000. If you do math like that half a1000000. I've heard a1000000 up from 200,000.
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1,000,000.
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Right. The other question is once it gets to those levels,
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do a lot of people side of it? I mean, you know, you're hearing are people ever really gonna use it not as a currency, but at some point you say, okay. I'm I I you know, it's made the run and then does it just level out at this sort of at some price or not? Right. It's hard to know.
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Right.
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The if you call it something like the Internet of money or you saw Paul Tudor Jones say it's like Apple in the first top of the first inning or
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Amazon in the top of the first inning.
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I don't know. I don't know. But,
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I don't know. Few of we'll see. Few of this more it gives us something to look forward to. A few of this morning's,
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Well, hey there, freaks.
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It's your boy, Matt Odell,
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here for another Bitcoin Tuesday.
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This is Citadel dispatch episode 9,
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the live show that focused on actionable Bitcoin discussion.
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I am
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glad to be joined here by Soff Simon
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and Wiz, the 2 lead maintainers of the mempool dot space project.
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It's a tool that I use all the time every day.
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Big supporter of this tool.
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It comes on the heels of a crazy week where we saw Bitcoin breach 50k.
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That clip in the beginning that you just heard, it was our was CNBC. It was our boy Joe Kernan,
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sounding
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like a complete orange pilled Bitcoiner,
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and Andrew Ross Sorkin, who's been salty about Bitcoin going up,
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and seems to just be deflated and accepting his fate
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as a salty no corner on mainstream TV,
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as 2021 plays out.
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So let's jump into this, boys. I'm I'm pretty excited to be here for this one. It's one that we've been looking forward to for a while.
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I've spoke to Wiz many times in the past, but this is my first,
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public discussion with Simon, so I'm really looking forward to that.
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And, you know, I'm just I and welcome to all the freaks in the audience.
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We're looking forward to you guys giving us good questions,
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to riff on as we go through here. I just wanted to say,
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that both, Simon and Wiz are in basically the opposite time zone of of May. So this is their morning. So good morning to them,
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good evening to pretty much everyone else,
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and let's have a let's have a fun rip today, boys.
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So, I mean, let's start with Wiz. Wiz, how's it going over there?
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Sup, Cypherpunks?
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Should I speak in all caps? Is that the new norm?
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Yes. We only speak in all caps in this paradigm.
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I just, I just woke up at 5 AM to be on the new, Matt O'Dell show, and, it's an honor to be part of the Citadel's
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dispatch. Thanks for having us on.
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What's up, Simon?
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Hey, Matt. Feels scary to be on.
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I'm excited.
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So
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my understanding is,
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Simon is the founder of mempool.
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He ended up on Wiz's radar, and Wiz
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was happy to join him.
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Wiz, do you want to give us some light into how you 2 met?
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Yeah. That's a that's a cool,
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story to tell. I guess,
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in the very, couple years ago,
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when, Raspberry Pi 4 came out,
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a friend of mine, by the name of DJ Booth007
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and I were working on this
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open source thing that we never released called the Bitcoin Television.
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And it was kinda like a poor man's version of Umbrella, like, 2 years ago,
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where we had, like, you know, a quote, unquote app store and everything. And one of the apps that we wanted to have on there was mempool space. But this is 2 years ago, and mempoolspace was just this,
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simple little website that Simon had made, and it wasn't open source or anything. So I I hit him up on Twitter.
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I was like, hey, Simon. Like,
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you know, can we can we make this into an open source project and collaborate on it? And, he was like, yeah. Sure. And,
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we did it. You know? Like, I guess, like, within a few days of that conversation, we
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got the code together and, added some, you know, documentation and screenshots, and,
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we we launched it. Right, Simon?
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Yeah. I remember how to
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you forced me to
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release the open source. I had to spend a few days to clean up the code before I dare to release it on GitHub.
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Was this your first open source project, Simon?
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Not really. I've had a few different projects
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of different sizes
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during the years,
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but I did this. I I was because I was
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starting to
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be a full time Bitcoiner in 2017. So I tried to find something in in to do related to Bitcoin.
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And I
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got this idea of doing this visualizer of the mempool.
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So I did it. So it's the first basic version was just seeing the blocks come in, seeing the mempool fills up. So the first version is almost like what it looks like right now.
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And, then Wiz came in, and he offered to host it. So since then, Wiz has
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hosted the site in his data centers and stuff. And
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and, we took it took a it took a while until we found a way of scaling it up with a more proper back end
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so we can make it into a full block explorer like we're like it is right now.
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Yeah. In in the early days, it was
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it was just, like, this simple mental visualizer. That was the mental v one release. And
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that site
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was
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not super interesting because I think at the time, the mempool was just mostly empty and,
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that but but that was really good because it gave us a lot of time to,
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implement the full explorer functionality and the new dashboard and all the other really cool features
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that everyone uses now. And so I would say over the course of of, at least a year,
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right, Simon, we worked on on, just building out the Explorer,
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and,
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at some at some point,
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we launched the v two site, right, which is what
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users are. I guess we're on version 2.1 now.
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So,
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operationally, it was a big challenge because,
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you know, there's not too many back ends that are, like, high performance,
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index of all the Bitcoin blockchain data and transactions and addresses and everything.
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So, eventually, we found the,
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Blockstream had developed this project called Explora.
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So we took the back end from that,
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which was their fork of,
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Electris, which is the reimplementation of Electrum server in Rust, but with a new
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Rust API.
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And, in the beginning, it was it was a big challenge to even get that back and up running because it's such a beast to run.
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And,
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you know, I just spent way too many SATs on, powerful servers with tons of RAM and nonvolatile memory modules. And, eventually, we got this really fast,
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Electris back end up and running, and that was the the mempool v twos site.
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So,
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yeah, that's how it started.
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Yeah. So to the freaks who are joining us through
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the livestream,
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they can do that through Twitch,
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Twitter, or YouTube. We support all of the evil empire
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services for broadcasting.
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Someone a freak was asking what, the Twitch
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name is. That is twitch.tv/cinnadledispatch.
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I appreciate if if you guys use that over YouTube, if if you're so willing
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because, YouTube tends to be a little bit draconian with my music choices at the end, but, you know, that is my own fault. Copyright is a thing.
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If you are watching the livestream, I have mempool.space
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right now on,
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the screen,
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the screen share.
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That is the main dashboard. You guys have been doing a lot of work on that dashboard,
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to try and and provide a compelling,
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like, one stop shop, right, for for user that that might be in need of a Blockchain Explorer. And I I think it's very interesting because,
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you guys took, I I guess, like, I don't even wanna say the name, but since the beginning, Block Explorers,
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pretty much every Block Explorer use the same exact derivative interface
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of of those block explorers. Heavy in text,
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you know, you're you're you're greeted with a big search bar in the beginning, and and and you you put in your, you know, your address details or your transaction ID, and it gives you more information. You guys went with a more visual approach. It's completely different than, any other block explorer. Right?
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Yeah.
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Simon loves visual things.
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Yeah. But the design you see without except for the big dashboard that we improved
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over the past few years. But
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with the blocks and everything, that was the main idea I just had from the where you start. It's how I felt it was the absolute natural way of displaying the the blockchain in the mempool. Because I if you go to a regular blockchain,
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Block Explorer website, you only see, like, a list, and people don't really
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understand how the blockchain looks like. So
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that's why I like to see it as blocks, and you actually see them come in. And people actually start learning and note noticing, like, oh, the blocks don't come in every 10 minutes and stuff. So I get a lot of random questions like that. Like, oh, they could be
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an hour between a block and people start noticing how the blockchain
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and the Bitcoin blockchain actually works, and the mempool actually works.
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Yes. Simon, there hasn't there hasn't been any blocks mined for over 20 minutes now, Simon. Hurry up and mine a block.
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Yeah. Yeah.
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But, yeah, that's that's that's a really good point. The, really innovative thing that Simon invented was this concept
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of visualizing the mempool as projected blocks. So you can see what will
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most likely,
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be in the next mined block. And,
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this was, this was this was a big change from all other block explorers because up until that point, no one had focused on the mempool. And more importantly,
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you know, they only looked at the past. Like, a block explorer
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only shows,
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typically mined transactions, and they they left very little emphasis on the mempool simply because the mempool is not relevant,
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until
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very recently, like, within a few years ago. And so
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all of these blockchains are kinda stuck in the past. But nowadays, as Bitcoin's transitioning into this,
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you know, fee market,
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multilayer ecosystem,
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you care a lot more about right now. And you you know, once a transaction is mined,
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okay. Great. It's it's done now. We don't really care about it anymore. But when your transaction is stuck in the mempool
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or if you're about to make a transaction, you need to know what's going on with the mempool,
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how much, fee fee rate you should use.
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And then once you broadcast that transaction, you wanna track it as it, kinda sits in the mempool.
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Or if, you know, your transaction is stuck, maybe you wanna bump up the fee using RBF or CPFP or other methods.
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And, this is the tool
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for that. Right?
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Yeah. So, I mean, let's unpack that a little bit. I mean, you guys have I I think, you know, the best block explorer. I basically use a combination of of your block explorer.
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In terms of public block explorers, I use your your block explorer and blockstream dot infos.
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Basically, those hit everything I need.
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We're gonna go further into self hosting and whatnot. But before we get there, I mean, based off of what Wiz said,
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I think
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I want to use, you know, one of the key aspects of Citadel Dispatch is I try and focus on actionable discussion. I think there's a lot of
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fluff in the Bitcoin space that results in, you know, people just talking philosophically about Bitcoin. You know, I love number go up as much as the next guy. Definitely guilty about that.
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But I like to focus on actionable things. Right? And one thing that is gonna be very important, especially for new Bitcoiners, but even for people that are class of 2017,
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you know, maybe they've been here for 3 or 4 years, they haven't really I mean, let's be honest. There's only, like, really one period in history where anyone has has seen real fee pressure.
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So I kinda wanted to unpack,
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what, you know, how what people should what do you guys think people should expect in terms of rising fees?
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Are we gonna see rising fees this year? You know, do what what should users do in terms of,
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when they choose their fee? Like, how how should they choose their fee? Do they do they overcompensate? Do they go under, and do they use RBF? Like, let's let's dive into this a little bit.
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Yeah. It's it's a tough question, and it's hard to really know what's gonna happen. But we're already seeing this year. Usually, when the when there's a lot of price action, usually, the fee starts to go up for a while. But you
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if you're doing regular
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if you're doing Bitcoin transaction regularly, you start to learn some patterns. For example, that
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on weekends, the fees are lower.
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And, what we try to do in mempl space, what I try to do is teach people the proper way of using Bitcoin.
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For example, when you track a trans when you look up your transaction and track it, you get some flags
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showing red or green. I mean, green means good. So it will show green if you're using a SegWit transaction. It would be yellow if it's just
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a a SegWit compatible transaction. So
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and, there's also a a replace by fee flag. So it will be red if you're not using replace by fee. So it will try to encourage people to make everything green by upgrading to a wallet that's using full Segwit
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that has support for replace by fee.
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Then your fees will get cut in half, and you will be able to bump your fee for free, basically,
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incrementally
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until you reach a fee that's
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that will will push you further into
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the priorities priority queue.
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So, I mean,
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I'm there's still there's still a lot to unpack there.
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I I I don't I'm I'm trying to so so let's talk about mempools. Maybe that's the way to attack it.
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We hear people say,
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the mempool.
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I checked mempool space to check the mempool.
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If you see the tweet I sent out,
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and the title of YouTube,
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I successfully
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avoided that mishap that a lot of people do.
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There are really many mempools. Everyone has their own mempool.
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What what is a mempool? Why is that relevant?
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You know, and how does that how does that impact what fee the the user should choose?
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Well, when you make a Bitcoin transaction,
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it is broadcasted to the
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peer to peer network of Bitcoin nodes all around the world.
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So
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your transaction is propagated and stored in everyone's
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mempool.
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And everyone can have a different slight different mempool, and they can have different different size limit of how big their mempool are.
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And
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the base basic,
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default limit is, like, 300 megabytes.
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So
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and some some other some nodes have higher,
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ceiling mempool space, for example, have much higher ceiling so we can show all the all the mempools so that people can actually find their transaction.
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But,
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yeah, basically mempool is where the transactions are waiting before they are confirmed.
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And the miners are just picking from the mempool when they are building constructing new blocks, and they are taking the
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transaction with the highest fees,
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in general.
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So
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if you want to be confirmed faster, you need to put a a high fee. And if you put a
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a fee that's too low, you're just gonna be far behind in the queue, and you can be stuck there for days, weeks, months
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until the until you raise the fee or until
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the backlog is clear.
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So It's that is how the member was Probably also a good idea just to kind of, touch on the
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on the, topic of why there are transaction fees in the first place and, why the transaction fees are getting more expensive over time. Right? This is
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a relatively
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old concept, but only became relevant recently.
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Basically,
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in the old days,
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you know, like, 10 years ago, if you were making a Bitcoin transaction,
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you could do a zero fee Bitcoin transaction.
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But, this was not good because someone could spam the peer to peer network with,
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garbage transaction. So they added a minimum fee, which was just a hard coded I think it was, like,
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point 001,
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Bitcoin per transaction or something.
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And then they changed to
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fees per byte. And then when Segwit came along, they changed to
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v, sats per v byte.
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And
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all of this was in preparation for the
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eventuality that
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the demand for space in the Bitcoin blockchain
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will exceed
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the supply or the maximum capacity of,
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space in the Bitcoin blockchain.
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And this never really happened until,
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I guess, 2017,
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2018.
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And this is also what kinda sparked the whole,
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you know, the so called
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big block size debate,
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small block size debate.
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And,
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it turned out that,
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a malicious miner
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was spamming the
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Bitcoin network with high fee transactions
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because they wanted to artificially,
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inflate the fees of all transactions
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because they would get most of those transaction fees
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and also because they were,
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kind of shilling this narrative of
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we need to increase the block size in an attempt to basically take over Bitcoin. And this, you know, you kinda have to go into the whole
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New York agreements and,
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you know, SegWit two x, and and
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there's a there's a bunch
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of history as well as, like, the BIP 148 and
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the UASF movement
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where,
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the Bitcoin users essentially rejected that bullshit narrative and,
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activated Segwit on their own. And
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this, this caused
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the malicious mining,
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pool that had all this,
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covert
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covert ASIC boost hash power
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to have to fork off their own coin, which is now known as b cash or b trash.
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And, this was
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a very important point in Bitcoin's history where
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the users successfully defended
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an attack,
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to take over the the network by
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many companies and many mining pools who had kinda signed on to this,
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agreement.
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And so,
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that's
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that was the first time,
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the mempool really got full, and and it was it was kinda good in a way that,
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Bitcoin defended the attack, but but more so when you're talking about the mempool, this is what sparked Simon to first create the mempool space website back in, 2018,
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or whenever it was. And it gave us a few years to kind of develop and build up the site,
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for the eventuality
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of when the Bitcoin network naturally did,
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you know, have its demand for space exceed the supply.
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And so now,
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as of about
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2 or 3 months ago,
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basically, when the when the bull market started to get into full swing,
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now we're seeing you know, for example, the mempool has not cleared out since last year. What was that? December.
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Was it The mempool hasn't cleared since last year?
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Yeah. It's been, what, 2 or 3 months now? That was,
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you know, people might know Huddl Knott's prediction of we won't fall under 10 k again, that he made over and over again.
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I may or may not have made the mempool prediction over and over again,
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but I did make it for my New Year's resolution. I said or New Year's prediction. I said that the mempool would not clear this year,
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and it has not cleared yet.
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It has sometimes hit, 1 sat per byte. It's cleared 1 sat per byte transactions, but not cleared all of them. It's hit some of them.
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And that's usually during weekends as we said earlier when when transaction,
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a few times, when transactions
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or there's less transactions, there's less people using Bitcoin on the weekends. So so more, you know, lower fee transactions clear. Just to unpack what we just said, just just to make it super clear, the reason transaction fees exist in the 1st place. Why does Bitcoin have transaction fees? It's because it's a distributed ledger. Every single node runner
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is is holding this ledger. They're holding the data. They are also transferring the data between each other. That's heavy bandwidth requirements.
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And if we don't have a cost on the on the transactions, what happens is every transaction always has a cost regardless. You you have these shitcoins that say we have free transactions. We have free transactions. What that means is the transaction isn't paying the fee.
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Instead, the node operators are paying, and the node operators are paying in operation cost. They're paying in in bandwidth cost. They're paying in storage cost, and they're paying in the potential of of losing accessibility. Just the the fact that you can't run a note through Tor, you have to run it through AWS or one of these centralized,
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cloud providers.
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So so the fact that Bitcoin has transaction fees that are paid by the user are absolutely important to keeping the system distributed in the first place. That is the key thing. It's it's a cost to spam that is not that is not held, but, you know, that is not controlled by some centralized third party somewhere.
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If you try and spam the YouTube comments right now,
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YouTube will block you. Right? But then you have to rely on Google to be altruistic, and they're not. They're fucking evil.
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So so the the result for a distributed system is you need to have these fees. Right?
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Yeah. Any, cryptoanarchy,
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environment, you need to financially incentivize
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what you want people to do and financially disincentivize
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what you,
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want people to not do. And so
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the way this, works in Bitcoin and the way,
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miners will also be compensated,
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instead of inflating the supply of Bitcoin once it hits the the limit of 21,000,000
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Bitcoin,
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is that
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we're transitioning
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from,
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you know, miners just being compensated from the block subsidy reward, which is 6.25
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Bitcoin per block right now to,
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individual
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transactions completely compensating the miners.
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And so,
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yeah. Okay. Matt's got it on the screen now. This is the 3 month,
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mempool
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space graph.
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Then you guys can
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view this on our website.
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But but, yeah, the the mempool hasn't cleared in the past,
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looks like, about two and a half months now.
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And this is very good. This is very healthy for Bitcoin because,
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there is so much demand that now the users are willing to compensate the miners directly. You know, this fee market is starting to develop.
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And, you know, some users
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aren't so happy about this. Right? Because up until
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a few months ago, you could always,
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pretty much just create a one sat per byte transaction
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and just wait. And this is this is created like a false,
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you know, meme,
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and, you can't do that anymore. Right? Like, now if you make a one sat transaction,
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it'll get rejected or purged from the mempool.
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I think the minimum is is a few sats now. Right? So And you guys added that to the to the front page of mempool?
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Yeah. That was, that was an important feature, we added to kind of visualize that and more importantly, educate users,
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that is that, you know, the fee market is changing. The fee market is developing now. So you have to
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pay, the current market rates if you want your transaction fee if you want your transaction to get mined into a block. And if you don't, it'll get stuck in the mempool. And,
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you know, users,
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screw up their transaction all the time and, you know, they're they're worried. Oh my god. Did I lose my funds? What's happening? How do I fix my wallet? Because not all wallet apps.
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You know, a lot of wallets,
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don't support rebroadcasting
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transactions or bumping the fee of transactions,
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kind of just,
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they were kind of developed,
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in a time where you could where your transaction would always get confirmed, and that's no longer the case. Now your transaction might not get confirmed if you didn't use a high enough fee. It might get purged from the mempool.
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I mean, this is only, like, the second or third time, right, where we're, like, really in a situation where that's the case. Right?
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Exactly. But as more and more people,
404
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use Bitcoin transactions,
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this you know, there's more and more demand for the,
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space in the Bitcoin blockchain.
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And, you know, the we have some really great developers working on,
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you know, things like Segwit and Taproot and Lightning and the upper layers of this Bitcoin stack that's developing.
409
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So it all kind of,
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optimizes
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the usage of the space in the Bitcoin blockchain. Right? Each transaction is
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using less space, or you can,
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make many transactions
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in a single transaction
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now using various technologies.
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And so,
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you know, the the fees will or the the on chain usage in, how many bytes you use in the in the Bitcoin blockchain will go down over time, but the price per byte will increase not only in the number of satoshis that you're going to pay per byte,
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But the, obviously, the price of Bitcoin in fiat value is also going up, and so those two numbers kind of multiply each other.
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About, a few years ago, you could do a Bitcoin transaction for 5¢.
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Now the minimum you can pay is usually about $5.
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And in a few years, it's conceivable that this could also, you know, see another 100 x increase to, you know, 100 of dollars for a single Bitcoin transaction, which is what we saw back in, 27 2017 or 2018 if you were doing a large transaction.
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Sometimes it could be, like, $100. Right? And that's simply due to the market demand
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and the the price of Bitcoin multiplying each other.
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One really good thing about
425
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having a fee market is that,
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more important transactions
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are pricing out to more wasteful transactions.
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And people
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we see a lot of people
430
00:30:32.534 --> 00:30:35.674
doing legacy transactions and stuff, not using Segwit.
431
00:30:35.975 --> 00:30:41.310
And that means the fees are still too low. It doesn't hurt enough for them to actually
432
00:30:42.090 --> 00:30:46.750
upgrade to a Segwit wallet or something like that or for exchanges to invest in
433
00:30:47.845 --> 00:30:48.745
the new infrastructure
434
00:30:49.045 --> 00:30:49.705
with Segwit.
435
00:30:50.325 --> 00:30:58.780
We have to the fees have to go up for that to happen, I think. There's like a threshold when start hurting too much. People need to switch lightning, and then
436
00:30:59.400 --> 00:31:03.500
the the block space and the blockchain will be used so much more efficiently.
437
00:31:05.015 --> 00:31:06.555
More more stuff. Exchanges,
438
00:31:06.935 --> 00:31:09.195
like, what they could send, they could maybe
439
00:31:09.655 --> 00:31:12.155
send, using liquid between exchanges
440
00:31:12.660 --> 00:31:13.400
that would,
441
00:31:14.740 --> 00:31:16.600
reduce a lot of blockchain waste.
442
00:31:16.900 --> 00:31:28.675
But I mean, this is the whole point. Right? So the whole point is that fees create this incentive for them to be more efficient. If if they were paying the same amount all the time, then they wouldn't have any reason to,
443
00:31:29.600 --> 00:31:30.740
improve their efficiency.
444
00:31:31.200 --> 00:31:32.580
But that also means
445
00:31:33.039 --> 00:31:51.950
that it's a slow process. Right? Like, they they first need to feel the pain, and then they actually need to make it a priority and, like, actually execute. Right? Because, like, these exchanges are you know, especially someone like a Coinbase is they're they're massive institutions, and and they're a lot of them are very distracted with Shitcoins and all their bullshit Shitcoin integrations.
446
00:31:52.490 --> 00:31:58.575
So it takes a while for them to actually integrate. But if they don't, it will slowly eat away at their business,
447
00:31:59.355 --> 00:32:09.760
and it will force them to be efficient. Now so I changed, for the the viewers who are are watching us this live or or after the fact through the video stream, I changed the view on mempool.space
448
00:32:10.140 --> 00:32:12.400
to the 1 year view, and you can really see,
449
00:32:13.345 --> 00:32:17.445
that we have this massive wave of transactions coming in. And and this is something
450
00:32:17.825 --> 00:32:21.125
that I've expected for a while, and it's it's pretty funny because
451
00:32:22.340 --> 00:32:28.600
a lot of people said, you know, there was a lot of concern trolling during the bear market. We won't have enough fee pressure
452
00:32:29.674 --> 00:32:30.575
to sustain
453
00:32:30.875 --> 00:32:32.014
Bitcoin when,
454
00:32:32.394 --> 00:32:37.855
the block subsidy decreases. So right now, the the miners get get paid 2 things. They get paid
455
00:32:38.809 --> 00:32:40.510
the the the block subsidy,
456
00:32:40.970 --> 00:32:42.030
which which happens
457
00:32:42.730 --> 00:32:46.555
every block, and and and that's what the having happens when it gets cut in half.
458
00:32:47.515 --> 00:32:55.055
And then and then you they also have the fees. And what happens is as that that subsidy gets cut in half, the fees are gonna have to take over.
459
00:32:55.610 --> 00:33:04.750
So there was a lot of concern trolling that the fees wouldn't be able to take over, and I always said that whole time. I was like, I'm not gonna concern myself with your concern trolling here because I know
460
00:33:05.050 --> 00:33:09.934
in a couple years, the concern trolling is gonna be that fees are too high. And and as we see on this chart,
461
00:33:10.395 --> 00:33:11.855
there's this massive increase,
462
00:33:12.269 --> 00:33:15.009
and this is what people don't realize, you know, about humble
463
00:33:15.389 --> 00:33:38.409
humble Matt during the bear market versus a humble Matt during the bull market. I mean, I'm not saying I'm humble. Like, I need to work on that still. But, if you have a massive wave coming in if you have a massive wave coming in and you're sitting on shore, the humble move isn't to just sit there in lowercase and let the wave crash on top of you. The humble move is to fucking go all caps and get ready to ride that fucking wave, because that wave is coming.
464
00:33:42.924 --> 00:33:43.885
Yeah. I I guess,
465
00:33:44.605 --> 00:33:47.905
for many people, if, you know, if you're new to Bitcoin,
466
00:33:49.150 --> 00:33:51.250
the the fees probably seem expensive,
467
00:33:51.870 --> 00:33:55.490
and, you don't understand why it's it's so expensive.
468
00:33:56.110 --> 00:33:56.610
And
469
00:33:57.855 --> 00:34:01.315
like Simon was saying, it's the the pain will financially
470
00:34:01.615 --> 00:34:03.235
incentivize you to,
471
00:34:03.855 --> 00:34:05.795
basically migrate to layer 2
472
00:34:06.690 --> 00:34:20.535
payment networks for your transaction. So if if you wanna buy a coffee at the bar, you know, you're not gonna spend the $10 transaction fee for a $5 coffee. But if you go to that cafe all the time, you probably just open up a lightning channel to that cafe,
473
00:34:20.835 --> 00:34:24.455
and then you basically get free transactions with them after that. So,
474
00:34:25.260 --> 00:34:25.760
it's,
475
00:34:28.060 --> 00:34:32.480
it's a good financial incentive for everyone to optimize their on chain usage. Because
476
00:34:32.835 --> 00:34:34.994
right now, I mean, the Raspberry Pi can,
477
00:34:35.634 --> 00:34:41.569
just barely kind of run a Bitcoin core node and and a few other apps on top of it.
478
00:34:42.130 --> 00:34:43.970
And so I guess I guess,
479
00:34:44.450 --> 00:34:48.710
if you wanna talk about the, the Bitcoin full stack a little bit, there's these
480
00:34:49.484 --> 00:34:51.565
really cool solutions like Umbrel and,
481
00:34:52.045 --> 00:34:52.545
Raspipelets,
482
00:34:53.085 --> 00:34:54.625
Ronan Dojo, and Minode.
483
00:34:55.085 --> 00:34:57.984
And even BTC pay server, has this docker
484
00:34:59.000 --> 00:34:59.820
kind of ecosystem
485
00:35:00.120 --> 00:35:03.100
with different apps on it. But they're all kind of the same thing
486
00:35:03.560 --> 00:35:04.600
in the sense that,
487
00:35:05.560 --> 00:35:09.095
you can you can buy a very inexpensive Raspberry Pi,
488
00:35:10.035 --> 00:35:11.174
load all of your,
489
00:35:11.795 --> 00:35:17.540
you know, Bitcoin apps on it, have everything self hosted, be everything self sovereign. You don't have any security or privacy
490
00:35:18.240 --> 00:35:20.900
concerns. You can run everything off with Tor if you want.
491
00:35:21.280 --> 00:35:21.600
And,
492
00:35:22.480 --> 00:35:28.105
this is this is the real way to use Bitcoin. This is the this is the dream. Right? This is the original
493
00:35:28.644 --> 00:35:29.785
vision of,
494
00:35:30.404 --> 00:35:33.065
having a cheap node, like, a $100, $200
495
00:35:34.070 --> 00:35:34.570
where,
496
00:35:34.950 --> 00:35:36.550
you can run everything. And now,
497
00:35:37.030 --> 00:35:38.810
you can even run mempool space,
498
00:35:39.430 --> 00:35:44.895
on Raspberry Pi, which was the original vision of of the project and and why we started working together.
499
00:35:46.555 --> 00:35:49.055
Simon, what do you what did you wanna say about that?
500
00:35:49.730 --> 00:35:53.270
Yeah. I wanna say that we worked really hard. I worked really hard,
501
00:35:54.930 --> 00:36:03.454
late last year to make the memphis based website work on a Raspberry Pi with just Bitcoin Core and the Electrum server for transaction,
502
00:36:03.994 --> 00:36:04.974
address lookups.
503
00:36:05.835 --> 00:36:06.335
So
504
00:36:06.860 --> 00:36:07.600
it really
505
00:36:08.060 --> 00:36:13.200
feels humbling, and I'm really happy when I see the tweets. Past few days, seeing people
506
00:36:13.660 --> 00:36:17.215
tweeting out, hey. I'm running my own mempool space on my own node.
507
00:36:17.915 --> 00:36:18.415
So
508
00:36:19.755 --> 00:36:24.015
Yeah. But yeah. So so that that's one that's one of the coolest things that happened. So
509
00:36:24.940 --> 00:36:26.140
that that's another thing,
510
00:36:26.460 --> 00:36:30.799
that people don't realize that haven't been through these bull cycles in the past. Like,
511
00:36:31.180 --> 00:36:32.720
the real the real productive
512
00:36:33.615 --> 00:36:41.155
things that happen happen when the price is going down, and we have, like, peace. Right? And we have peace and quiet. I feel like these these
513
00:36:41.569 --> 00:36:45.190
these months that we have every 4 years that we just rip like crazy
514
00:36:45.569 --> 00:36:59.810
is you kinda just, like, batten down the hatches and, like, honestly, like, I I appreciate the work that people do to bring in newcomers and stuff. Like, those newcomers aren't gonna find their feet until after the crash of this cycle and and and things settle down. But one of the coolest parts
515
00:37:00.270 --> 00:37:01.730
about this bear cycle
516
00:37:02.270 --> 00:37:04.290
is this push to become,
517
00:37:05.845 --> 00:37:10.665
more self sovereign for the average user. It's just very easy way easier to self host.
518
00:37:10.965 --> 00:37:13.145
And one of the reasons isn't just
519
00:37:14.760 --> 00:37:18.859
developers such as yourselves that have made their stacks more efficient.
520
00:37:19.640 --> 00:37:33.340
It's it was that the Raspberry Pi, the new Raspberry Pi is way more performant than previous Raspberry Pis. And the combination of the 2 has resulted in these software stacks that you're talking about, like Umbrel and Ronin Dojo and MyNode,
521
00:37:34.520 --> 00:37:39.180
and Nodl that that that allow you to basically run these different packages,
522
00:37:40.154 --> 00:37:42.795
relatively easy on on open hardware.
523
00:37:43.115 --> 00:38:05.974
I mean, the model is the the only one that is is you buy a prebuilt. But the other ones, you just buy a Raspberry Pi, and you can just run the software. So now so the so why would someone do that? And the reason someone would do that is because to interact with the Bitcoin network, you have to use a node. And if you're using someone else's node, you have to trust that node. You have to trust that that node is enforcing the rules of the Bitcoin network, and you have to trust that node with your privacy.
524
00:38:06.350 --> 00:38:10.770
That also goes for all the services you use on top of it. So when you go to something like mempool.space,
525
00:38:11.630 --> 00:38:13.650
the official third party mempool.space,
526
00:38:14.645 --> 00:38:15.545
you are trusting
527
00:38:16.085 --> 00:38:17.145
Simon and Wizz
528
00:38:17.525 --> 00:38:18.645
with your with your
529
00:38:19.204 --> 00:38:43.880
anything any data you put in there, you're trusting them with it. You put in an address and you have your IP address, your public IP address when you're connecting to it, you're connecting those two things and you're hoping that they're not logging that data. I don't think they're logging that data. I don't think Blockstream's logging that data, but you have to operate under the assumption that they are. So what is the solution for an average Bitcoin? You have basically 2 different paths you can go. You can use something like Tor or shared VPN,
530
00:38:45.380 --> 00:38:46.119
to access,
531
00:38:46.580 --> 00:38:47.560
something like mempool.space.
532
00:38:47.940 --> 00:38:52.085
In that way, at least they don't have your IP address. But if you don't keep changing circuits,
533
00:38:52.385 --> 00:38:58.520
they can still connect your addresses together. If you do 2 addresses, you search 2 addresses at the same time, they might be able to connect those.
534
00:38:59.000 --> 00:39:07.580
The more clean solution is to run a local copy of mempool, and and that's one of the coolest parts about about about your project is that you do have it open,
535
00:39:08.175 --> 00:39:14.835
and you have just recently added it to Umbrel. So now someone who's running an Umbrel node can simply go into
536
00:39:15.349 --> 00:39:22.410
this Umbrel app store, which is different than any other app store that that that people might be familiar with in that it's all open source software,
537
00:39:23.190 --> 00:39:24.970
that Umbrel is not a
538
00:39:25.495 --> 00:39:27.915
permission gatekeeper in the way they handle it.
539
00:39:28.615 --> 00:39:33.755
But you can just basically point and click, right, and and and run your own version of mempool
540
00:39:34.070 --> 00:39:37.210
on Umbrel, and you can even remotely connect to it through Tor.
541
00:39:38.710 --> 00:39:43.285
Right. Yeah. I'm also available on, res by blitz right now, which I am running
542
00:39:43.765 --> 00:39:44.265
personally
543
00:39:44.805 --> 00:39:45.545
like that,
544
00:39:46.405 --> 00:39:47.545
that one the most
545
00:39:48.005 --> 00:39:49.065
right now. But,
546
00:39:51.020 --> 00:39:51.760
yeah, it's,
547
00:39:52.540 --> 00:39:54.720
I think it's starting to get that simple.
548
00:39:56.140 --> 00:39:57.520
You just buy the hardware.
549
00:39:57.820 --> 00:39:58.560
You just
550
00:39:59.335 --> 00:40:07.035
boot up Umbrel, and you're good to go. You just click install, and you're you're there. You can connect your wallet to it. Maybe Electrum, for example, is very easy.
551
00:40:07.350 --> 00:40:08.810
So you can make transactions
552
00:40:09.670 --> 00:40:11.270
with your Electrum wallet, and,
553
00:40:12.070 --> 00:40:15.930
everything goes through your node, and you can track your transactions in mempool.
554
00:40:16.385 --> 00:40:22.165
And that's also to your node. And then you get that feeling of self self sovereignty. And
555
00:40:22.465 --> 00:40:25.650
once you go self sovereign, you never go back, I think.
556
00:40:26.690 --> 00:40:31.029
Yeah. I'm a huge fan of the Umbrel of the Umbrel project. I mean, they,
557
00:40:31.490 --> 00:40:36.085
you know, the other the other Raspberry Pi distributions are also great. But for a real
558
00:40:36.545 --> 00:40:37.045
nontechnical
559
00:40:37.345 --> 00:40:38.805
person who wants to get,
560
00:40:39.185 --> 00:40:45.350
started with self hosting, it's it's literally one click to install mempool. I mean, it doesn't get,
561
00:40:45.970 --> 00:40:47.510
easier than that. And,
562
00:40:48.335 --> 00:40:48.835
you
563
00:40:50.015 --> 00:40:52.755
know, you you know, when you when you wanna, like, seduce,
564
00:40:53.454 --> 00:41:00.510
newbies to to become, like, cypherpunks and self sovereign people, This is the way I feel you have to do it. You have to,
565
00:41:00.830 --> 00:41:01.570
have such
566
00:41:02.030 --> 00:41:05.250
a a sexy UI and a slick user experience
567
00:41:05.950 --> 00:41:06.610
so that
568
00:41:07.184 --> 00:41:18.309
they can, very, very easily get started, and then they can level up from there. Like, okay. Maybe I don't wanna use the app store. Maybe I wanna compile everything from source. You know, you can you can level up on your own
569
00:41:18.609 --> 00:41:19.509
speed if you,
570
00:41:20.049 --> 00:41:20.789
so desire.
571
00:41:21.535 --> 00:41:30.115
But, but, yeah, all the all the apps on there are great. And that was the original, like, meme of Bitcoin. Right? It's like Bitcoin, be your own bank. Well,
572
00:41:30.480 --> 00:41:34.020
now if you install BTCPay, you can be your own payment processor.
573
00:41:34.320 --> 00:41:38.500
If you install mempool, you can have your own block explorer, mempool visualizer.
574
00:41:39.135 --> 00:41:39.795
If you
575
00:41:40.175 --> 00:41:48.460
install, you know, Bisc isn't an app on for Raspberry Pi's yet, but once we get that working, then you'll be your own Bitcoin exchange. Right? So all of these apps
576
00:41:49.420 --> 00:41:55.200
kind of build on top of the Bitcoin full stack where you have Bitcoin Core or Lightning Node,
577
00:41:55.580 --> 00:41:59.285
as the lower layers and these, apps, the higher layers.
578
00:41:59.665 --> 00:42:01.445
And, it it's really beautiful,
579
00:42:01.905 --> 00:42:07.365
when everything because that was another original meme with Bitcoin. They said not your keys, not your Bitcoin.
580
00:42:07.740 --> 00:42:09.600
But it's not enough,
581
00:42:10.540 --> 00:42:12.560
like, for security concerns,
582
00:42:13.100 --> 00:42:17.040
having your your own Bitcoin on your own keys is great. But for privacy concerns,
583
00:42:17.365 --> 00:42:21.945
you also wanna use your own full node. So if it's, like, not your hardware,
584
00:42:22.405 --> 00:42:33.910
not your, you know, XPub privacy I don't have a cool meme for that, but but the the idea is the same as you you not only want everything to be on your own keys, but also on your own hardware. And so all of these open source projects,
585
00:42:34.385 --> 00:42:37.925
you know, they're really geeky and hard to run, but not anymore. Now you can,
586
00:42:38.305 --> 00:42:41.105
you you know, one click install all these apps, and that's,
587
00:42:41.665 --> 00:42:45.750
really, really bullish for, self sovereign g with regular Bitcoiners.
588
00:42:46.290 --> 00:42:50.230
Yes. I mean, I brought a little bit of shame on my family, Simon, for not mentioning RaspiBlitz.
589
00:42:50.530 --> 00:42:51.030
RaspiBlitz
590
00:42:51.410 --> 00:42:53.350
is probably the most featureful
591
00:42:54.015 --> 00:42:55.795
version of all of these packages.
592
00:42:57.455 --> 00:43:00.870
It is for more advanced users, but I think it's easier than people think it is.
593
00:43:01.350 --> 00:43:05.050
But I would agree with Wiz that Umbrel is extremely promising.
594
00:43:06.310 --> 00:43:12.815
I try not to pick favorites because I just I love that we have all these different teams working on these competing platforms.
595
00:43:13.755 --> 00:43:16.575
And, honestly, I think that as you become more
596
00:43:16.940 --> 00:43:18.880
advanced as a user, you might have
597
00:43:19.260 --> 00:43:24.000
dedicated device you might have multiple. So so we have, u t s 9 as,
598
00:43:24.700 --> 00:43:25.599
in the comments,
599
00:43:26.454 --> 00:43:34.795
if this opens you up to more attack vectors because you have more software running, where your Bitcoin node is running. And, I mean, I think that's a perfect example where
600
00:43:35.350 --> 00:43:37.690
as you become more advanced, if you have situations
601
00:43:38.070 --> 00:43:43.530
where you do have a hot wallet, which a a normal on chain Bitcoin users should never have a hot wallet really on there.
602
00:43:43.964 --> 00:43:49.505
They should never have their wallet on the same node as in the same machine as as Bitcoin Core,
603
00:43:50.444 --> 00:43:51.825
because then it's hot.
604
00:43:52.390 --> 00:43:54.410
But when it comes to Lightning or CoinJoin,
605
00:43:56.630 --> 00:43:59.050
you're you're you're gonna have you're gonna have,
606
00:44:00.125 --> 00:44:08.145
funds hot. So you might want to have multiple devices. You might be running multiple of these different packages. Like, I I'm right now, I'm looking at I'm running multiple,
607
00:44:08.940 --> 00:44:17.025
and I'm using multiple because you wanna have, like, dedicated for your lightning, and you wanna have dedicated for your 247 coin joint to reduce your your attack surface a bit.
608
00:44:17.664 --> 00:44:20.484
But I I honestly, I'm I'm I am blown away.
609
00:44:20.865 --> 00:44:22.724
I think Umbrel makes the accessibility
610
00:44:23.984 --> 00:44:26.724
way, way, way, way easier. Like, I think
611
00:44:27.799 --> 00:44:34.940
the the simple thing that they this idea I don't know. It's kind of gone understated that people aren't talking about. This idea that they derive
612
00:44:35.640 --> 00:44:36.140
all,
613
00:44:38.275 --> 00:44:45.894
they derive, like, everything comes as a child secret of your main seed. So the whole thing is backed up by just this one master seed.
614
00:44:48.420 --> 00:44:52.840
And I maybe it's mixed with, like and they also have a cloud backup system in place.
615
00:44:53.300 --> 00:45:06.470
So anything that needs to be active, like your lightning can be active actively backed up, and then everything is derivative of the seed. So then all the user really needs on the surface is they're putting in these words and everything is backed up for them.
616
00:45:07.430 --> 00:45:09.530
Yeah. I I see a lot of, comments,
617
00:45:09.950 --> 00:45:10.730
you know,
618
00:45:11.030 --> 00:45:21.295
many smart people say, well, doesn't this increase your attack vector? Or, you know everything is a trade off at the end of the day. If you want the most hardcore secure setup,
619
00:45:21.755 --> 00:45:23.870
that's not, you know, like some,
620
00:45:24.350 --> 00:45:31.330
app store quote unquote app store thing. Right? The the point of the app store is you're optimizing for the user experience, one click installation.
621
00:45:31.825 --> 00:45:33.205
If your if your,
622
00:45:33.745 --> 00:45:34.565
threat model
623
00:45:34.945 --> 00:45:39.445
is, you know, some nation state is gonna be going after your
624
00:45:40.000 --> 00:45:42.500
transactions or or whatever, then, yeah, maybe
625
00:45:42.880 --> 00:46:04.290
some one click Raspberry Pi thing is enough for you. But if you're an average Bitcoiner and you just wanna stack sats without the government knowing about it, Umbrella's perfect. And, like, you can level up from there. Right? It's just something to to kinda seduce people into getting started with self sovereignty. It's a good stepping stone or a lot even long term solution if if, it meets your use case. And,
626
00:46:04.925 --> 00:46:08.545
you know, all of these, community projects are very,
627
00:46:09.565 --> 00:46:11.905
pure. Right? Like, the community
628
00:46:13.369 --> 00:46:15.390
that that's, you know, there's this
629
00:46:15.770 --> 00:46:18.750
this really beautiful community of open source developers.
630
00:46:19.930 --> 00:46:22.109
Everyone kinda knows each other and,
631
00:46:22.454 --> 00:46:25.115
you know, collaborates with each other and and,
632
00:46:27.095 --> 00:46:27.915
all the projects,
633
00:46:29.015 --> 00:46:37.420
align themselves with the interests of the Bitcoin community, and a lot of them are are, directly funded by the Bitcoin community in various ways. Like,
634
00:46:38.600 --> 00:46:47.505
for example, BTC pay made a foundation and they got big grants from, like, Square and and Kraken and and, all these other corporate sponsors. And,
635
00:46:47.965 --> 00:46:51.800
Mempool spaces is has just gotten a ton of love from the community.
636
00:46:52.340 --> 00:46:57.295
Even now while while we're on this show, someone, sent me, like, some money.
637
00:46:57.595 --> 00:46:58.895
So so just, you know,
638
00:46:59.195 --> 00:47:00.815
just, like, huge love,
639
00:47:01.275 --> 00:47:03.055
from all the the community. Like,
640
00:47:04.050 --> 00:47:08.630
you you guys are creating this huge financial incentive for us to keep
641
00:47:09.010 --> 00:47:11.350
everything honest and for us to keep
642
00:47:11.795 --> 00:47:14.375
working hard on the project and keep,
643
00:47:15.075 --> 00:47:21.650
you know, giving the community exactly what it wants. And so we don't have to put any, you know, shit coins or
644
00:47:21.950 --> 00:47:22.450
advertisements
645
00:47:23.310 --> 00:47:28.690
or anything that would ruin the project or the the experience of the the overall,
646
00:47:30.105 --> 00:47:31.724
you know, just this app ecosystem.
647
00:47:32.184 --> 00:47:36.924
And and that's why it works is because we're all of our interests are aligned. Right? Like,
648
00:47:37.410 --> 00:47:43.030
there's no, like, evil companies here. Whereas if, you know, you you put your your content on YouTube,
649
00:47:43.490 --> 00:47:47.355
you YouTube doesn't, you know, care about you. They care about monetizing
650
00:47:47.734 --> 00:47:48.474
your content,
651
00:47:49.015 --> 00:47:56.770
and or, you know, they'll they'll harvest all of your private data, whatever. You know, the interests are are kind of opposite. Right? The interest of YouTube
652
00:47:57.070 --> 00:47:58.290
are to the shareholders
653
00:47:58.590 --> 00:48:02.609
of YouTube. Right? Not to the users of YouTube. But with Bitcoin community,
654
00:48:03.494 --> 00:48:05.915
these open source apps can exist where,
655
00:48:06.935 --> 00:48:08.475
all of our interests are aligned.
656
00:48:09.335 --> 00:48:10.475
Yeah. It looks like
657
00:48:11.250 --> 00:48:15.590
Matt's, Matt's bringing up the sponsor's page here on the the live stream, but,
658
00:48:16.370 --> 00:48:17.750
yeah, we we've got,
659
00:48:18.565 --> 00:48:19.704
like, a 100 people,
660
00:48:20.964 --> 00:48:28.310
or something now that all donated, like, a 1000000 sats each. And the best part of the scam was you got us to donate before the price run up.
661
00:48:30.550 --> 00:48:31.270
Yeah. That's,
662
00:48:31.670 --> 00:48:36.730
that that's true. We set the I think it was, like, a $100 when we first launched this sponsors feature.
663
00:48:37.155 --> 00:48:40.855
And so I guess Bitcoin is about $10. Now Now it's 500.
664
00:48:41.475 --> 00:48:43.495
For the price run up as well. Right?
665
00:48:44.539 --> 00:48:47.039
Yeah. But but but still, I mean, we get sponsors.
666
00:48:47.579 --> 00:48:50.240
I mean, we got a sponsor, like, a few hours ago. So
667
00:48:50.700 --> 00:48:51.579
people are,
668
00:48:52.140 --> 00:49:03.825
are really, sending their love both, you know, in with their words and with their with their stats. And this this allows us to basically work full time directly for the Bitcoin community, and
669
00:49:04.820 --> 00:49:06.120
it it's the most heartwarming,
670
00:49:07.060 --> 00:49:11.620
humbling thing. Like, Simon, you know, tells me. Like, Simon, what do you what do you think about our,
671
00:49:12.180 --> 00:49:12.680
project
672
00:49:13.265 --> 00:49:14.085
funding situation?
673
00:49:16.225 --> 00:49:16.945
Yeah. I was,
674
00:49:17.505 --> 00:49:22.460
totally mind blown by the sponsors because I I didn't think we would get that many
675
00:49:22.940 --> 00:49:24.720
when you told me to make that feature.
676
00:49:26.140 --> 00:49:26.640
But,
677
00:49:27.020 --> 00:49:27.580
yeah. I
678
00:49:29.855 --> 00:49:32.275
Well, so let's talk about that, Simon, because,
679
00:49:32.895 --> 00:49:36.515
I mean, this is something that people talk about all the time is is
680
00:49:37.800 --> 00:49:40.300
the difficulty in funding open source work,
681
00:49:40.920 --> 00:49:42.300
that there's no easy,
682
00:49:43.800 --> 00:49:44.300
monetization
683
00:49:44.680 --> 00:49:51.575
strategy for open source, and that is going to be the death knell for open source. I mean, Bitcoiners obviously would say
684
00:49:51.955 --> 00:49:53.655
we've watched open source flourish,
685
00:49:54.700 --> 00:50:04.744
in the Bitcoin ecosystem, but but it it definitely is a concern for a lot of people. Do you think this is something that the way you guys set up the sponsors is something that other open source projects in the space should consider?
686
00:50:06.645 --> 00:50:09.204
Well, maybe. I I I didn't expect,
687
00:50:09.880 --> 00:50:12.940
to receive a lot of, sponsors and stuff when I,
688
00:50:14.200 --> 00:50:19.660
was building the site. It was just on on my out of my own pocket and spare time and stuff.
689
00:50:20.345 --> 00:50:25.805
I was just super happy when we offered to host the website for free so I didn't have to pay for some hosting.
690
00:50:26.345 --> 00:50:28.204
That is, like, everything was
691
00:50:28.825 --> 00:50:30.730
settled. Everything is done.
692
00:50:32.550 --> 00:50:33.030
But,
693
00:50:33.510 --> 00:50:34.010
Yeah.
694
00:50:34.470 --> 00:50:38.174
I guess in the beginning, we had to kinda bootstrap it. Right? Like,
695
00:50:38.815 --> 00:50:43.635
you know, I don't I don't wanna think of how many stats I spent on server parts and stuff. But, yeah, in the beginning,
696
00:50:44.255 --> 00:50:45.875
before the site was,
697
00:50:46.255 --> 00:50:49.849
I guess, like, the the level that it is now of of,
698
00:50:50.710 --> 00:50:59.365
speed and user experience and all the features we have. In the beginning, of course, you know, we had to work on it for a couple years just, out of our own savings or or whatnot. But,
699
00:51:00.545 --> 00:51:01.045
once
700
00:51:01.744 --> 00:51:09.520
the site was very useful and there was a lot of people using it, I said to Simon, like, hey. What? Let's let's make this sponsor program. Like,
701
00:51:10.815 --> 00:51:12.755
we'll, you know, we'll let the
702
00:51:13.295 --> 00:51:16.035
the users who sponsor us have their
703
00:51:16.494 --> 00:51:18.940
profile photo on the on the website directly
704
00:51:28.125 --> 00:51:28.865
it basically,
705
00:51:29.245 --> 00:51:37.620
covers all the operational expenses of, running the site. And Simon and I can even, you know, get get a little bit of salary from it too. So it it's,
706
00:51:38.580 --> 00:51:44.360
it's like we're directly working for the Bitcoin community, and that is the the dream. That is the real
707
00:51:45.765 --> 00:51:53.705
the real dream. So I mean, so Bitcoin basically solved 2 things. Right? Bitcoin allows people to receive funding in a permissionless,
708
00:51:54.619 --> 00:51:56.160
relatively private manner,
709
00:51:56.859 --> 00:51:59.440
which is key for open source development because,
710
00:52:00.859 --> 00:52:07.805
you know, users don't want to dock themselves to the developers, and a lot of times the developers don't wanna, you know, dock themselves to the users.
711
00:52:08.424 --> 00:52:14.590
And and one of the reasons open source development is is is more censorship resistant than, closed source development
712
00:52:14.970 --> 00:52:17.950
is because the devs might not be known. They might be NIMs.
713
00:52:18.434 --> 00:52:31.440
So that's one main thing that Bitcoin has has helped in just terms of open source. And then the second main thing is that because Bitcoin is designed to pump forever, you have these people that are very pro free open source software,
714
00:52:32.299 --> 00:52:33.599
that are getting rich,
715
00:52:33.980 --> 00:52:36.480
and they have the money to spend. So,
716
00:52:37.255 --> 00:52:45.994
I mean, Wiz separated it out between the sponsors and him bootstrapping it, but, really, Wiz was the first sponsor. Like, Simon
717
00:52:46.790 --> 00:52:47.770
Simon created,
718
00:52:48.150 --> 00:53:05.125
this tool and Wiz came along and was like, I have Bitcoin. I wanna fund you. This is a dope project. I wanna be a part of it. And he basically set the groundwork for other Bitcoiners coming in later when this the official sponsor page came up, right, to to come in and and and take take the ball. Right?
719
00:53:06.450 --> 00:53:07.990
I mean, to be clear, Matt,
720
00:53:08.290 --> 00:53:17.785
I don't have any Bitcoin. I lost it all in the boating accident. I thought we were very clear on this. I lost I actually lost all my Bitcoin in a very obscure cold card hack.
721
00:53:19.285 --> 00:53:20.585
That's Oh, yeah. That's horrible.
722
00:53:21.260 --> 00:53:22.513
Told me. I didn't
723
00:53:22.940 --> 00:53:23.440
I'm
724
00:53:23.819 --> 00:53:27.599
very very was was very secure though. How can I You should've who
725
00:53:28.220 --> 00:53:33.994
who could've known? Who could've known? It was, it was a hard a hard attack to pull off, but they somehow pulled it off against me.
726
00:53:36.214 --> 00:53:36.775
Yeah. So,
727
00:53:37.480 --> 00:53:42.460
but but that's that's true, really. Like, 6102 is saying in the comments right now. To do,
728
00:53:42.760 --> 00:53:46.779
to get, you know, paid or compensated for open source work,
729
00:53:47.365 --> 00:53:52.745
and this is something that's really true in with the with the bisque project too, is that you never get paid
730
00:53:53.685 --> 00:53:54.185
before
731
00:53:55.620 --> 00:53:57.000
the the the work is completely
732
00:53:57.780 --> 00:54:01.240
done and shipped and users are using it. Right? Otherwise,
733
00:54:01.700 --> 00:54:09.065
the the incentive structure kinda falls apart. If you, you know, if if I'm gonna hire someone and pay them a full time salary,
734
00:54:10.484 --> 00:54:16.890
there's no incentive for them to ship a high quality project because they're just gonna get their paycheck no matter what. And
735
00:54:17.430 --> 00:54:18.809
if you prepay something,
736
00:54:19.190 --> 00:54:23.905
you know, like, it you know, they're just gonna ship whatever. But if you
737
00:54:24.605 --> 00:54:31.090
if you build something and you just passionately work on it and make it great and everyone loves it, and then
738
00:54:31.550 --> 00:54:32.210
the community
739
00:54:32.830 --> 00:54:33.330
voluntarily
740
00:54:33.630 --> 00:54:34.350
on their own,
741
00:54:34.830 --> 00:54:36.670
compensates you. They're not
742
00:54:37.070 --> 00:54:38.850
I guess they're not really paying for
743
00:54:39.395 --> 00:54:44.695
the work you've already done, but they're kind of paying you for the next version. Right? They're kinda like saying, we like this,
744
00:54:45.075 --> 00:54:48.640
and we want you to keep working on it. We want you to keep operating it.
745
00:54:49.599 --> 00:54:50.579
And and that's,
746
00:54:51.359 --> 00:54:54.400
how the open that's how you get funded for an open source. So, I mean, I guess
747
00:54:55.119 --> 00:54:59.775
so I I had I had the 2 facets that Bitcoin has changed open source funding. Right?
748
00:55:00.335 --> 00:55:03.775
But, really, it's 3 facets. Right? So you have you have,
749
00:55:04.670 --> 00:55:13.490
you have the fact that it's easier to fund developers. You have the fact that Bitcoiners are getting rich, and then you have the third fact that a lot of those Bitcoiners are developers.
750
00:55:13.895 --> 00:55:15.275
Right? So if if
751
00:55:15.575 --> 00:55:16.715
they are holding Bitcoin,
752
00:55:17.895 --> 00:55:19.755
they're seeing their value increase.
753
00:55:20.455 --> 00:55:26.600
They're mission driven by you know, they're ideologically driven by the Bitcoin project, and they want to improve it.
754
00:55:27.220 --> 00:55:43.160
So so you basically have these threefold things. Right? I mean I mean, Simon wasn't I mean, I know Simon has no Bitcoin now, but when Simon first started working on the project, he was working on the project because not only did he own Bitcoin, but he wanted to see it succeed and he believed in the mission. Right? So it's,
755
00:55:44.339 --> 00:55:48.680
in a lot of like, there's so many ways that people really underestimate how Bitcoin,
756
00:55:49.694 --> 00:55:52.755
improves the the free open source landscape.
757
00:55:53.295 --> 00:55:55.155
And, you know, you see a lot of
758
00:55:55.535 --> 00:55:58.194
VCs and stuff, they go down this rabbit hole where,
759
00:55:58.670 --> 00:56:00.610
oh, like, Blockchain solves,
760
00:56:01.150 --> 00:56:05.330
open source funding because, like, any dev can make some shit token.
761
00:56:05.635 --> 00:56:06.135
But
762
00:56:06.595 --> 00:56:09.015
really, the hard shit was was was
763
00:56:09.475 --> 00:56:14.455
the the the real substance of shit was solved by Bitcoin existing in the first place.
764
00:56:15.880 --> 00:56:18.120
That's a good point. Yeah. I I guess,
765
00:56:19.560 --> 00:56:31.960
I guess yeah. Some people some people consider it yeah. I I mean I mean, we we're also kinda taking fiat donations now, like the, GitHub Sponsors Program. We just signed up for that a few days ago, and, I think we're starting to get some fiat,
766
00:56:32.440 --> 00:56:34.619
donations on there. But, yeah, like, 99%
767
00:56:34.920 --> 00:56:35.740
of the funds,
768
00:56:36.280 --> 00:56:55.530
that we received from the community are, of course, in in Bitcoin. And it was so easy for, you know, Simon and I to just make, like, a multisig wallet together. Like, yeah, let's, you know, hook it to a BTC payback end. Let's integrate it into the site. And, you know, you you're instantly set up. So it's it's very easy to get started. And if you're
769
00:56:56.070 --> 00:56:56.570
really,
770
00:56:56.875 --> 00:57:01.615
if you really work hard for the Bitcoin community, like, Biscuit is a is a great example.
771
00:57:02.955 --> 00:57:04.715
They, they compensate you,
772
00:57:05.890 --> 00:57:06.770
in their own,
773
00:57:07.490 --> 00:57:10.150
form of equity, which is kind of like a colored Bitcoin,
774
00:57:11.490 --> 00:57:12.390
called BSQ.
775
00:57:12.850 --> 00:57:13.170
And,
776
00:57:14.290 --> 00:57:25.560
it it's not like a shitcoin or anything. It's just this, token that's used, you know, internally between the developers. But, basically, I contributed to Bisk for the past, I guess, almost 2 years
777
00:57:25.940 --> 00:57:28.820
now. And that compensation that I've got from Bisk,
778
00:57:29.700 --> 00:57:35.585
was far greater than what I would have earned, you know, working, like, a full time job at Google or something just from the,
779
00:57:36.045 --> 00:57:37.345
not only from the shitcoin.
780
00:57:38.925 --> 00:57:46.690
No. I mean, I mean, it's mostly from Bitcoin going up. Right? I mean, the the the price of of the BSQ in in Sats has been relatively stable.
781
00:57:47.150 --> 00:57:51.315
That's why I love this show because I have my things on so I can I can review?
782
00:57:52.015 --> 00:57:52.515
What
783
00:57:52.975 --> 00:57:55.715
what, why why isn't the Bisk token a shitcoin?
784
00:57:57.480 --> 00:58:02.120
Well, Bisk is not a company. Right? It's kind of like, okay. Take take the,
785
00:58:03.080 --> 00:58:16.160
take the shares of Kraken, for example. Right? Kraken is a company. They have, venture capital investments and and all those investors hold shares in Kraken. Well, Bisk is not a company. And so for the founders and developers
786
00:58:16.460 --> 00:58:18.000
and contributors to Bisk,
787
00:58:18.380 --> 00:58:21.520
the way they have equity is they just use colored Bitcoin.
788
00:58:21.925 --> 00:58:22.425
So
789
00:58:22.885 --> 00:58:24.744
our shares in a company, a shitcoin,
790
00:58:25.285 --> 00:58:28.425
well, it's more like a security or something. Right? But it's
791
00:58:29.445 --> 00:58:30.565
it's it's,
792
00:58:30.885 --> 00:58:31.545
you know,
793
00:58:32.150 --> 00:58:42.285
just because it's on a blockchain, just because we call it a a token or something, does it like, Shitcoin is a good example of Shitcoin is like Ripple. Right? They just print these tokens
794
00:58:42.665 --> 00:58:44.845
with a huge pre mine and then,
795
00:58:46.105 --> 00:58:48.125
use marketing and, bots,
796
00:58:48.450 --> 00:58:52.230
you know, to trade on the exchange and kind of make all this fake volume
797
00:58:52.690 --> 00:58:57.375
and pump the price and whatnot and just dump it on newbies for literally nothing. Right? And then everyone loses
798
00:58:57.755 --> 00:59:02.075
their mind. That's a shitcoin scam. Before we continue, I just want to,
799
00:59:02.555 --> 00:59:06.960
there's no sponsors of the show, so I just want to just just play a quick clip,
800
00:59:08.380 --> 00:59:09.520
from the BIS community.
801
00:59:12.380 --> 00:59:14.640
There are many places to buy Bitcoin.
802
00:59:15.305 --> 00:59:17.325
They collect your personal information
803
00:59:18.265 --> 00:59:20.045
and jeopardize your privacy.
804
00:59:21.464 --> 00:59:21.964
KYC
805
00:59:22.345 --> 00:59:24.204
is the illicit activity.
806
00:59:26.060 --> 00:59:27.440
Bisc is open source.
807
00:59:27.980 --> 00:59:30.000
It does not collect user data.
808
00:59:30.380 --> 00:59:32.065
You keep your private keys,
809
00:59:32.865 --> 00:59:35.605
create or take offers to trade peer to peer,
810
00:59:35.905 --> 00:59:38.244
and keep your Bitcoin private and secure.
811
00:59:44.050 --> 00:59:46.630
I love that, Ed. So shout out to Pedro.
812
00:59:47.330 --> 00:59:47.830
Yeah.
813
00:59:48.210 --> 00:59:49.510
Yeah. Pedro's awesome.
814
00:59:50.225 --> 00:59:52.085
He's here to help. Us a lot.
815
00:59:52.785 --> 00:59:53.285
Pedro's,
816
00:59:53.585 --> 00:59:54.885
been been, like,
817
00:59:55.345 --> 00:59:58.245
helping us to, with some design work for mempool,
818
00:59:58.630 --> 01:00:02.089
and, he's also the designer for Bisc. He made the logo
819
01:00:02.390 --> 01:00:05.049
of the T shirt that I'm wearing right now. And
820
01:00:05.575 --> 01:00:14.715
he's also helping me with my, book cover design for the Bitcoin standard Japanese version. And, basically, he's just designing all the Bitcoin projects, and he's
821
01:00:15.140 --> 01:00:31.934
he's even sponsored mempool twice. It's kinda funny if you look on our sponsor page. He he loves mempool so much. He sponsored us twice. So just huge love to Pedro Mann. No. Yeah. I'm big big fan. He's he's he's he's a good friend. I consider him a good friend. And, I just wanna say, like, it's very unique
822
01:00:32.330 --> 01:00:36.030
in open source space to have such a boss fucking
823
01:00:36.330 --> 01:00:36.830
video
824
01:00:37.370 --> 01:00:39.150
for for an open source project.
825
01:00:39.450 --> 01:00:40.750
That is really rare.
826
01:00:41.210 --> 01:00:46.555
So I just I play that whenever I get the chance. I get a little drunk on Twitter and it just goes up. It's just like automatic.
827
01:00:47.415 --> 01:00:48.940
But I I think so the key
828
01:00:59.855 --> 01:01:00.595
to basically
829
01:01:01.375 --> 01:01:07.795
spread out the fees that the exchange receives and incentivize further development and progress for the network.
830
01:01:09.119 --> 01:01:09.619
So
831
01:01:09.920 --> 01:01:12.819
it really depends on what your definition of a shitcoin is.
832
01:01:14.400 --> 01:01:20.285
You know, if if if your definition of a Bitcoin is that it's gonna trend to 0 in terms of Bitcoin long term,
833
01:01:20.825 --> 01:01:22.685
then the Chrysler building is a shitcoin,
834
01:01:23.145 --> 01:01:27.670
and the BIST token is also a shitcoin. It will you're probably better off holding Bitcoin,
835
01:01:28.450 --> 01:01:32.685
than the BIST token. You're probably better off holding Bitcoin than the Chrysler building.
836
01:01:33.245 --> 01:01:35.105
But in terms of a token
837
01:01:35.645 --> 01:01:36.465
that doesn't,
838
01:01:37.645 --> 01:01:41.905
attempt to oversell itself, doesn't have a presale, doesn't have,
839
01:01:43.290 --> 01:01:46.990
doesn't lie about trade offs, provides, like, an actual utility,
840
01:01:47.850 --> 01:01:49.230
that is that is needed.
841
01:01:50.015 --> 01:01:52.674
I mean, I don't think people can disagree that
842
01:01:53.055 --> 01:01:54.035
having a censorship
843
01:01:55.454 --> 01:01:59.714
resistant, p to p global exchange that doesn't have k y c,
844
01:02:00.320 --> 01:02:02.100
is important in today's age,
845
01:02:03.040 --> 01:02:05.520
can go fuck themselves. Like, obviously, it is important.
846
01:02:06.240 --> 01:02:07.940
Would you disagree with me there, Wiz?
847
01:02:08.515 --> 01:02:10.295
Yeah. No. I mean, the only way that,
848
01:02:11.155 --> 01:02:15.974
BSQ is created is when you make a contribution to the BISC project and the community
849
01:02:16.600 --> 01:02:18.060
collectively approves your
850
01:02:18.440 --> 01:02:24.220
contribution, and then you can issue yourself a little bit of BSQ. You can color some of your own sats into the colored Bitcoin.
851
01:02:24.520 --> 01:02:25.800
That's BSQ. And,
852
01:02:26.214 --> 01:02:27.655
by all means, don't don't,
853
01:02:29.095 --> 01:02:29.994
don't use BSQ.
854
01:02:30.375 --> 01:02:32.555
Just if you're gonna use Bisq, just, you know,
855
01:02:33.310 --> 01:02:44.665
keep everything in Bitcoin. It's just an internal thing for the developers to kind of, because Bisk is a profitable business. Right? It's this is peer to peer exchange network, and every every time someone trades on the exchange,
856
01:02:46.484 --> 01:02:55.300
they, you know, basically make a donation to the Bisk DAO, and then from those funds, Bisk can kind of, buy the BSQ back from the contributors.
857
01:02:56.244 --> 01:03:02.744
And, that's how BISK contributors get paid directly from the community. So the BISK DAO also is community funded,
858
01:03:03.045 --> 01:03:05.065
just they have a much more advanced
859
01:03:06.080 --> 01:03:07.220
system, which is
860
01:03:07.680 --> 01:03:10.740
very innovative. I mean, they're they're probably the first, like, real,
861
01:03:12.000 --> 01:03:12.500
decentralized,
862
01:03:13.815 --> 01:03:19.994
you know, autonomous organization that that governs itself and everything. But it works because You mean a DAO?
863
01:03:20.855 --> 01:03:22.290
Yes. And, we We
864
01:03:22.990 --> 01:03:25.410
we don't call it DAOs anymore after the incident.
865
01:03:26.430 --> 01:03:29.015
Yeah. No. This is this is leaking. I mean,
866
01:03:29.414 --> 01:03:34.875
it's I, it's not only the first I mean, I would say the first real DAO is Bitcoin.
867
01:03:36.630 --> 01:03:39.450
Maybe Bisk is the 2nd real DAO, and,
868
01:03:40.630 --> 01:03:47.035
it's definitely the first real decentralized exchange. So we hear decentralized exchange all the time. Most of the time, it's bullshit.
869
01:03:47.735 --> 01:04:00.180
With Bisq, it is a real deal. And as Wiz said, I think that is an important thing to keep in mind is that there's no gatekeeping with this token, which you see a lot with shitcoins. Is it like, you can use Bisq and never you you don't even need to know the token exists.
870
01:04:02.115 --> 01:04:04.935
Right. I mean, if if you wanna stack sats without,
871
01:04:06.275 --> 01:04:15.170
the IRS knowing about it, Bisq is perfect. And as as you pointed out on Twitter the other day, or or actually someone I think someone tweeted at the Bisk account. They said,
872
01:04:15.790 --> 01:04:18.530
the price is a little bit higher on Bisk because
873
01:04:19.095 --> 01:04:22.475
all the other exchanges are giving you a discount for your,
874
01:04:23.495 --> 01:04:26.955
personal data and your KYC and your your transaction
875
01:04:27.255 --> 01:04:31.140
information and because they're gonna snitch on you to the government. Right? And so
876
01:04:31.520 --> 01:04:38.984
the the actual price of Bitcoin is a little bit higher. There's there's, like, a couple of percent premium on this because there's no KYC and only,
877
01:04:39.285 --> 01:04:41.944
you know, you your only your trading partner,
878
01:04:42.645 --> 01:04:44.984
would know your your details or whatever.
879
01:04:45.350 --> 01:04:47.110
So this is, you know,
880
01:04:47.670 --> 01:04:51.610
Wiz said the the new Matt Odell show. This is also the new 61 02 show.
881
01:04:51.990 --> 01:04:54.865
Part Part of the reason this format exists is because he's
882
01:04:55.165 --> 01:04:56.625
able to contribute live,
883
01:04:57.005 --> 01:05:04.359
via text and not dox his voice. The only time he ever dox his voice was on the Stefan Lavera podcast. So if you wanna go listen to his voice,
884
01:05:04.660 --> 01:05:09.505
go check out 6102 on Stefan Lavera. But he's saying right now that BSQ
885
01:05:10.285 --> 01:05:13.905
is is basically a donation multisig with flexible membership.
886
01:05:14.980 --> 01:05:21.355
And and if anyone knows 6102 like, if 6102 is defending your Sheit coin, then it probably isn't a Sheit coin.
887
01:05:22.315 --> 01:05:23.435
Yeah. The the and,
888
01:05:24.155 --> 01:05:27.775
just to just to kinda explain how the the projects are connected,
889
01:05:29.490 --> 01:05:30.530
which by the way,
890
01:05:31.010 --> 01:05:33.510
isn't 6102 your pseudonym or
891
01:05:33.890 --> 01:05:35.570
sorry. I didn't mean to dox you there. But,
892
01:05:36.210 --> 01:05:38.550
I don't have any Bitcoin and I have no NIMs.
893
01:05:39.095 --> 01:05:44.775
Okay. Right. Me too. And so Melpool is the official explorer of Bisk, and that was one of the first,
894
01:05:45.335 --> 01:05:47.674
really cool collaborations that we did where,
895
01:05:48.300 --> 01:05:50.400
BISC didn't have a, really,
896
01:05:51.180 --> 01:05:55.180
you know, nice tool to view all the trades and everything. And so,
897
01:05:56.204 --> 01:05:59.665
that was the first, I guess, layer 2 network, if you wanna call it, BISK.
898
01:06:00.365 --> 01:06:09.250
We we added the so now you can view all the BISK trades and and transactions on our mempool space explorer. And so that was the first real community funding where
899
01:06:09.790 --> 01:06:20.535
one open source project funded another open source project. Right? The the Mentool project got some compensation from the BiskDAO, which I just thought was the most, you know, beautiful, pure,
900
01:06:21.400 --> 01:06:21.900
Bitcoin,
901
01:06:23.320 --> 01:06:31.664
you know, thing ever. And so, DAO, we're we're getting sponsored just directly by the community, which is is even is even cooler. Right? Are are you gonna,
902
01:06:32.204 --> 01:06:42.190
I guess if you don't have any sponsors for this show, man, are you gonna be taking, like, individual, I guess, Patreon or some some kind of sponsor program? Patreon, are you fucking kidding me?
903
01:06:43.690 --> 01:06:50.454
I don't I don't know what I'm doing. And I'm enjoying that I can just do copyright infringement and shit and just have flexibility. So I don't even know,
904
01:06:50.755 --> 01:06:51.494
you know,
905
01:06:51.954 --> 01:06:54.694
like, user users can can can, listeners
906
01:06:55.395 --> 01:06:56.055
can contribute.
907
01:06:56.390 --> 01:07:00.330
If they enjoy dispatch, they they I I love I appreciate
908
01:07:00.630 --> 01:07:02.570
any stats that you throw my way.
909
01:07:02.950 --> 01:07:05.690
I will huddle on to those stats. They will go to my grandkids,
910
01:07:06.015 --> 01:07:08.115
and you can hit that on stack stacksips.com.
911
01:07:10.415 --> 01:07:14.915
I have my links over there. And Citadel Dispatch also has the links, citadel dispatch.com.
912
01:07:15.470 --> 01:07:22.130
But I'm I'm just trying you know, let's be honest. Right? Like, why are we here? We're here to make fuck you money the standard, and
913
01:07:23.975 --> 01:07:28.795
what what's the point of fuck you money if you don't have a show where you can't just say whatever the fuck you wanna say?
914
01:07:29.895 --> 01:07:45.295
Yeah. No. This is this is definitely the the most pure, Bitcoin podcast with with no sponsors. It's it really feels like a Citadel Dispatch. It's kind of like, do you remember when Netflix used to, mail DVDs through the mail, and now it's actually on the Internet?
915
01:07:45.674 --> 01:08:05.180
Now it's like, this show is Citadel Dispatch, but in the future, it will literally be a dispatch from a real Bitcoin Citadel. I can feel the the energy from this show. Yeah. I'm gonna need you in, like, Quito to, like, help me with the networking and whatnot, and we'll just broadcast all the citadels globally. Dude, we'll do, like, a pirate radio show. We'll just broadcast over the airways.
916
01:08:08.840 --> 01:08:11.740
So right now, for the the viewers, I have,
917
01:08:12.255 --> 01:08:13.795
mempool's bisque integration
918
01:08:14.095 --> 01:08:15.954
is is up on the screen share.
919
01:08:17.775 --> 01:08:19.475
Yeah. So this is the first iteration.
920
01:08:20.540 --> 01:08:25.199
Simon could probably talk about more what we're working on for the, the Bisk dashboard. But,
921
01:08:26.380 --> 01:08:29.659
as a start, you know, you could just see all the trades and,
922
01:08:30.265 --> 01:08:35.565
kinda like the governance transactions of the DAO. So if you click on the filter, you can you can go to, like,
923
01:08:36.345 --> 01:08:39.965
you know, voting or or or different things. That's how they make decisions.
924
01:08:40.489 --> 01:08:40.989
But,
925
01:08:41.290 --> 01:08:43.310
yeah, this is the first really cool,
926
01:08:43.929 --> 01:08:46.989
integration we did. Simon, do you have you wanna talk about this?
927
01:08:48.655 --> 01:08:49.715
Yeah. I think you
928
01:08:50.255 --> 01:08:51.475
said everything there.
929
01:08:52.415 --> 01:08:52.915
K.
930
01:08:55.295 --> 01:08:56.515
It's got an old
931
01:08:58.810 --> 01:09:01.610
an old website for their explorers. So we,
932
01:09:02.170 --> 01:09:05.790
basically made a new one and integrated to mempool. And
933
01:09:06.525 --> 01:09:09.905
because the goal of the mempool project is what I is to
934
01:09:10.685 --> 01:09:20.790
make an ex have an explorer for the whole upper layer of the Bitcoin ecosystems. We wanna support everything, all the upper networks. Like, we support BISK, Liquid, Testnet, and
935
01:09:21.170 --> 01:09:23.190
we hopefully can add Lightning and
936
01:09:23.525 --> 01:09:25.145
some other in the future.
937
01:09:25.605 --> 01:09:28.105
Yeah. I'm also a big fan of liquid. And, actually, I'm
938
01:09:28.645 --> 01:09:34.780
a a member of the Liquid Federation and on Wait. Wait. Let's talk about that, Wiz, because the Liquid Federation
939
01:09:35.239 --> 01:09:35.719
is,
940
01:09:36.360 --> 01:09:49.645
it's like all corporations. It's like global corporations, and then it's just like Wiz. Like, there's there's just we we have, like, all these global Bitcoin focused corporations, and then Wiz is one of the federate federated, members.
941
01:09:50.260 --> 01:09:52.360
Yeah. So how the how the fuck does that happen?
942
01:09:53.140 --> 01:09:57.320
Yeah. I guess it's kind of a joke. In the the board meetings, they're like,
943
01:09:58.085 --> 01:10:00.405
so what company are you with again? You know? They've been,
944
01:10:01.284 --> 01:10:01.605
but,
945
01:10:02.804 --> 01:10:05.065
I'd I'd I'd like to think that I,
946
01:10:06.560 --> 01:10:09.380
you know, am just an individual Bitcoiner,
947
01:10:10.560 --> 01:10:11.300
you know,
948
01:10:12.719 --> 01:10:14.179
participating in this federation.
949
01:10:14.735 --> 01:10:16.675
I I really feel there aren't enough cypherpunks
950
01:10:17.375 --> 01:10:18.035
in this,
951
01:10:18.895 --> 01:10:23.010
I mean, it's, like okay. So first of all, it's a layer 2 network. Right?
952
01:10:24.050 --> 01:10:27.510
If fees if you wanna if you wanna do small transactions,
953
01:10:28.210 --> 01:10:31.989
if you wanna do lots of transaction if you wanna do confidential transactions even, they have
954
01:10:32.975 --> 01:10:35.135
a little bit of base layer privacy in the,
955
01:10:35.855 --> 01:10:40.114
the element side chain project, which Liquid is a specific instance of.
956
01:10:41.800 --> 01:10:46.140
It's a great layer 2 network that has a real blockchain. Right? Because if you wanna do Lightning,
957
01:10:46.760 --> 01:10:52.155
for coffee, it's great. But if you wanna do lightning for large amounts of of funds,
958
01:10:52.935 --> 01:10:53.435
you
959
01:10:54.375 --> 01:10:56.795
you need, like, something like liquid where it's
960
01:10:57.740 --> 01:11:05.120
on an actual blockchain and you don't have to worry about routing issues or capacity issues. And, of course, the trade off for all that is the
961
01:11:06.435 --> 01:11:09.655
security model, which is kind of like this very complicated,
962
01:11:10.114 --> 01:11:12.135
11 of 15 multi sig,
963
01:11:13.074 --> 01:11:13.895
where it's
964
01:11:14.290 --> 01:11:17.510
kind of like this, it's a federation. Right? It's this collective
965
01:11:18.130 --> 01:11:21.030
custodial model where the federation collectively,
966
01:11:21.755 --> 01:11:24.815
you can peg in Bitcoin into the liquid network,
967
01:11:25.195 --> 01:11:29.135
do your transactions, and then when you're done, peg out back into
968
01:11:29.470 --> 01:11:34.210
into Bitcoin based layer. Well, I mean, the idea, right, the idea is that you have this
969
01:11:34.990 --> 01:11:37.410
there's this trade off balance, right, where you have
970
01:11:38.865 --> 01:11:39.845
censorship resistance,
971
01:11:40.305 --> 01:11:40.805
distribution,
972
01:11:42.225 --> 01:11:43.205
you know, decentralization
973
01:11:44.145 --> 01:11:46.165
versus transaction cost.
974
01:11:47.070 --> 01:11:47.570
And
975
01:11:48.030 --> 01:11:54.770
and and, basically, what Liquid is saying is Liquid is saying, maybe we don't have to be as censorship resistant.
976
01:11:55.185 --> 01:11:56.804
Maybe we don't have to be as distributed.
977
01:11:57.185 --> 01:12:02.165
We could be a little bit centralized, and as a result, we can be faster and cheaper.
978
01:12:02.630 --> 01:12:04.650
Right? Is that, like, the the basic,
979
01:12:05.030 --> 01:12:05.530
show?
980
01:12:06.310 --> 01:12:15.135
Yeah. I mean, it it it makes sense for a lot of use cases. And if you, by all means, if you need the censorship resistance and security
981
01:12:15.594 --> 01:12:19.135
that the Bitcoin blockchain provides, they go right ahead
982
01:12:19.679 --> 01:12:23.539
and pay the Onchain fees to use Bitcoin directly. But
983
01:12:24.079 --> 01:12:29.655
if you're going to, if you if you wanna use layer 2 side chain like Liquid
984
01:12:30.195 --> 01:12:32.535
and, you know, you often do transactions
985
01:12:33.475 --> 01:12:34.330
between various
986
01:12:35.130 --> 01:12:40.830
exchanges or whatever other members of the that are in the Liquid Federation or even between individuals.
987
01:12:42.225 --> 01:12:44.625
If you just wanna settle on a thing, it's a great layer to,
988
01:12:45.585 --> 01:12:45.825
block
989
01:12:47.345 --> 01:12:50.805
Wiz, I I I'm sorry for cutting you off. I I
990
01:12:53.210 --> 01:12:57.790
I go back and forth on liquid, and, the freaks have witnessed this
991
01:12:58.975 --> 01:12:59.475
themselves.
992
01:13:00.735 --> 01:13:01.235
I
993
01:13:02.815 --> 01:13:06.114
the I saw it right now. I have Biscup. Right? I have Biscup,
994
01:13:07.040 --> 01:13:08.980
the Liquid Explorer for Bisc,
995
01:13:09.360 --> 01:13:13.460
for the most recent block of liquid, and it has 2 transactions.
996
01:13:13.760 --> 01:13:20.735
Really, it has one transaction because the one of the transactions is the Coinbase transaction, and there's always a Coinbase transaction
997
01:13:21.035 --> 01:13:22.015
every block.
998
01:13:22.875 --> 01:13:23.695
You know,
999
01:13:31.105 --> 01:13:40.165
610 2 is still here. He gave you the pass on on Bisk being a shitcoin, but he he does not give you a pass on LVTC being a shitcoin, if anyone knows 6102.
1000
01:13:41.640 --> 01:13:42.140
Why
1001
01:13:42.600 --> 01:13:43.820
have we not seen,
1002
01:13:45.160 --> 01:13:49.660
you know, do are we gonna like, when fees go up, are we gonna see more people use
1003
01:13:50.015 --> 01:13:57.235
liquid? Like, there no one is using it right now. And and and one of the key selling points of liquid is this confidential transactions
1004
01:13:57.930 --> 01:13:59.950
where the the amount is blinded,
1005
01:14:00.570 --> 01:14:02.670
that you're sending. So if I send you,
1006
01:14:03.290 --> 01:14:12.145
a 1,000,000 sats on liquid, you can't tell that I sent the 1,000,000 sats. You can you can still see I sent from address to address like you can with Bitcoin, but you can't see the amount.
1007
01:14:13.405 --> 01:14:16.930
That benefit is reduced if no one is fucking using it. I mean,
1008
01:14:17.650 --> 01:14:20.870
like, some of the like, people use Dogecoin more than this shit.
1009
01:14:22.130 --> 01:14:30.295
Well, I there's a lot of, things. First of all, liquid has 1 minute block times, which is why you don't see so many transactions in each block.
1010
01:14:30.675 --> 01:14:35.415
No one's using it. Like, look. We go back. Like, look at the latest transactions. Like,
1011
01:14:35.980 --> 01:14:39.120
I mean, you could you could say that about a lot of things that,
1012
01:14:39.660 --> 01:14:41.440
were built for Bitcoin. Like,
1013
01:14:41.900 --> 01:14:45.120
you know, 3 years ago, you never cared about the mempool
1014
01:14:45.965 --> 01:14:51.265
because it was always empty and always cleared out every block. Now when the fees are getting expensive,
1015
01:14:51.725 --> 01:14:52.864
now this creates
1016
01:14:53.380 --> 01:14:54.120
a reason
1017
01:14:54.740 --> 01:14:57.080
why you use liquid. So as you mentioned before,
1018
01:14:57.620 --> 01:15:03.105
when, in the bear market, that's when you build things. Right? And, you know, Liquid was built
1019
01:15:03.645 --> 01:15:05.665
by very, very smart people at Blockstream
1020
01:15:06.685 --> 01:15:16.760
who, you know, came up with this side chain technology, and they they put all these really cool features into it. And they launched it with they got all these, members on board so you can interact with all these exchanges.
1021
01:15:17.205 --> 01:15:25.864
And now, finally, as we've seen in the past two and a half months when the mempool doesn't clear anymore and transactions are starting to get very expensive,
1022
01:15:26.449 --> 01:15:27.989
Now there's an actual,
1023
01:15:28.610 --> 01:15:37.095
use case for layer 2 networks. Right? I mean, how many lightning transactions did you do last year? Maybe, you know, maybe you're I did a lot more than my liquid transactions.
1024
01:15:38.115 --> 01:15:43.095
Sure. And and like I said, if if you wanna if you wanna send money in between,
1025
01:15:44.250 --> 01:15:48.270
there's there's different use cases for lightning and there's different use cases for liquid.
1026
01:15:48.970 --> 01:15:56.094
And if you wanna buy a coffee at the bar, sure. Use liquid. If you wanna send, you know, a $100 between exchanges
1027
01:15:56.395 --> 01:15:59.055
and have a 1 minute confirmation time and
1028
01:15:59.435 --> 01:16:07.969
confidential transactions, then liquid is the better use case. Right? And it's you you gotta use the right tool for the job. You meant lightning. You meant lightning for the first one. Right?
1029
01:16:08.349 --> 01:16:19.295
Yeah. Sorry. So so you gotta use the right tool for the job. Right? It's it's not about, like, Liquid is the the tool for everyone for all use cases or Lightning is the tool for all use cases. It's,
1030
01:16:20.015 --> 01:16:26.690
sometimes it makes sense to do an on chain transaction. Sometimes it makes sense to use Lightning. Sometimes it makes sense to use Liquid.
1031
01:16:27.310 --> 01:16:34.065
Sometimes it makes sense to trade on disk. Sometimes it makes sense to trade on a centralized exchange. You know, there's Which there's pros.
1032
01:16:35.005 --> 01:16:38.385
I love you. I love you. You're a massive liquid bull.
1033
01:16:39.245 --> 01:16:42.440
You've always have been, and I I appreciate that consistency.
1034
01:16:42.820 --> 01:16:43.320
Simon,
1035
01:16:43.780 --> 01:16:51.765
where do you stand here? What do you what do you think? Do you think there's a place for liquid? Do do you think in this fee environment, we're gonna see liquid transactions go up? Do you think, like
1036
01:16:52.405 --> 01:17:04.500
it's like one of the big things for me that has been sold heavily is this idea that that liquid is is useful for traders going between exchanges. But, I mean, I think that use case probably gets handled better by
1037
01:17:05.120 --> 01:17:10.695
by private channels, like, big private lightning channels between these exchanges. They already have a relationship.
1038
01:17:11.395 --> 01:17:14.135
Lightning is the biggest competitor to Liquid.
1039
01:17:14.595 --> 01:17:20.550
So as soon as we get this jumbo, wumbo channels between exchanges, I think liquid
1040
01:17:21.270 --> 01:17:27.335
there's no use for liquid anymore really. But I don't know. There might be a use case to today.
1041
01:17:27.795 --> 01:17:30.515
I'm not that into liquid, how it works and all, but,
1042
01:17:31.715 --> 01:17:33.735
if it's marketed as this exchange,
1043
01:17:34.290 --> 01:17:40.230
inter exchange settlement thing. Right? So what I think they should do, and I've told them this privately.
1044
01:17:41.090 --> 01:17:41.590
Yeah.
1045
01:17:42.065 --> 01:17:46.804
And so now I'm gonna start saying it publicly. Because when it stops working privately, you have to just start
1046
01:17:47.105 --> 01:17:48.645
saying it publicly on air,
1047
01:17:49.425 --> 01:17:50.645
which is what I've learned.
1048
01:17:51.370 --> 01:17:53.310
This is another key of open source development.
1049
01:17:54.650 --> 01:17:58.030
If if if I think they should focus on privacy.
1050
01:17:59.755 --> 01:18:02.015
I think there's a use case for Liquid
1051
01:18:02.555 --> 01:18:06.175
in terms of confidential transactions. Like, people don't realize, like, you can,
1052
01:18:08.739 --> 01:18:09.239
like
1053
01:18:09.780 --> 01:18:12.360
like, Samson Mao has, like, his shit token,
1054
01:18:13.219 --> 01:18:13.619
with,
1055
01:18:14.980 --> 01:18:16.840
Infinite Fleet, his game. Right?
1056
01:18:17.395 --> 01:18:20.295
I can coin join with the assets in his game
1057
01:18:20.595 --> 01:18:21.095
because
1058
01:18:21.475 --> 01:18:21.975
confidential,
1059
01:18:22.995 --> 01:18:23.495
transactions
1060
01:18:23.955 --> 01:18:33.370
and confidential assets, which they have on liquid, mean that you can't tell that I'm just coin joining with a random amount of sats, and he's coin joining with some random bullshit,
1061
01:18:34.949 --> 01:18:35.449
space
1062
01:18:36.905 --> 01:18:46.125
space plane in his game. Right? And I can coin join between those two things. So so so there's a lot of there's a lot of value there. There could be a lot of value there,
1063
01:18:46.900 --> 01:18:55.880
for the average user in terms of they don't have to have an online hot wallet all the time. They don't have to have they they they can get they can get easier privacy,
1064
01:18:56.405 --> 01:19:17.005
but they do have this custodial risk. They have this additional custodial risk. I almost think this whole idea that the traders are gonna use liquid is completely wrong. They, like, complete I think they missed the boat on that. I think maybe in the beginning that would have been the case, but we didn't have the fee pressure, so they just used on chain. And now they're just gonna use traders are just gonna use Lightning private channels. They're not even gonna because because the exchanges
1065
01:19:17.385 --> 01:19:20.699
if I'm if I'm Kraken and I have a relationship with Gemini,
1066
01:19:21.320 --> 01:19:22.940
like, I'm gonna have, like, a fucking,
1067
01:19:23.800 --> 01:19:25.500
you know, $1,000,000, $2,000,000,
1068
01:19:25.880 --> 01:19:26.380
$3,000,000
1069
01:19:26.760 --> 01:19:33.875
channel, private channel with them, and we're gonna settle that all the time between each other, and and we'll be fine with that.
1070
01:19:34.255 --> 01:19:45.560
There's no need for me to involve this federation of corporations that I don't wanna deal with. Like, they're like, why would I even fucking do that? Yeah. Well, that that's a good analogy. See this
1071
01:19:46.805 --> 01:19:49.945
lighting being used more for this settlement between exchanges.
1072
01:19:50.245 --> 01:19:55.545
But what I do like about liquid is filling this gap and killing out killing all the altcoins.
1073
01:19:55.970 --> 01:20:06.645
The narrative Right. It's all. Like, why use because if you if you look at, if you go to the website of use d Tether, they have issued their token of all of token of all these change like Tron.
1074
01:20:07.905 --> 01:20:14.565
Like, Tron just flipping Tron just flipping ETH for the number one Tether now is on Tron. Liquid.
1075
01:20:14.960 --> 01:20:18.660
So I no reason why you shouldn't use all your,
1076
01:20:19.360 --> 01:20:20.500
stable coin transactions
1077
01:20:20.800 --> 01:20:24.695
on Liquid, for example, which is a very centralized but super speedy
1078
01:20:25.235 --> 01:20:27.574
blockchain instead of this slow and expensive
1079
01:20:27.875 --> 01:20:35.829
Ethereum blockchain, which is centralized anyway. So it's just total waste. And the whole issuance of leak and these stable coins are also very
1080
01:20:36.849 --> 01:20:41.414
centralized. They are dependent on these oracles that keep the peg and stuff. So,
1081
01:20:42.835 --> 01:20:46.755
if so that's one big use case I see for liquid is,
1082
01:20:47.235 --> 01:20:54.520
killing the narratives of the old coins. If you're gonna use something centralized anyway, why not use the liquid on Bitcoin so we
1083
01:20:54.820 --> 01:20:56.600
build everything on top of Bitcoin?
1084
01:20:59.435 --> 01:21:03.535
Yeah. I think I think that's a good that's a very good point, Simon, is that,
1085
01:21:04.875 --> 01:21:05.375
Liquid
1086
01:21:05.860 --> 01:21:07.480
has a lot of the functionality
1087
01:21:07.860 --> 01:21:08.360
of
1088
01:21:08.660 --> 01:21:09.480
all of these,
1089
01:21:10.340 --> 01:21:12.440
you know, other Shitcoin projects
1090
01:21:12.980 --> 01:21:13.480
without
1091
01:21:13.780 --> 01:21:20.585
a Shitcoin. Right? So because Liquid uses Bitcoin as its native token and doesn't have its own native Shitcoin,
1092
01:21:22.085 --> 01:21:26.080
plus having all these confidential transactions, confidential assets,
1093
01:21:27.580 --> 01:21:30.245
1 minute block, all these cool things, it
1094
01:21:30.725 --> 01:21:38.265
it just destroys the, the justification for 99% of all the other, shit coins out there, which is good in itself. But,
1095
01:21:38.930 --> 01:21:48.310
Matt, to answer your question of, like, what's a what's a real use case for liquid? Well, to be honest, the reason I was very interested in liquid at first was because of bisque.
1096
01:21:49.155 --> 01:21:53.895
Currently, every BISK trade is for on chain Bitcoin transactions,
1097
01:21:54.435 --> 01:21:57.969
which until very recently weren't even Segwit. So it's very,
1098
01:21:58.670 --> 01:21:59.570
just unoptimized.
1099
01:22:00.269 --> 01:22:01.730
And now with the fees rising,
1100
01:22:02.429 --> 01:22:04.449
bisque trades become extremely expensive,
1101
01:22:05.005 --> 01:22:07.425
simply for the on chain mining fees. And so
1102
01:22:07.805 --> 01:22:09.505
it makes a lot of sense
1103
01:22:09.885 --> 01:22:11.025
for this to,
1104
01:22:12.570 --> 01:22:14.830
you know, add an option to optionally
1105
01:22:15.450 --> 01:22:18.510
use Liquid's blockchain and use LBTC,
1106
01:22:19.850 --> 01:22:23.305
if the users want it. Because a big use case of,
1107
01:22:23.765 --> 01:22:26.345
BISC is, like, I think just buy, like, a $100,
1108
01:22:26.885 --> 01:22:27.385
Bitcoin
1109
01:22:27.765 --> 01:22:31.910
stacking sats without the government knowing about it. Well, if your on chain fees are $20,
1110
01:22:32.530 --> 01:22:33.350
you're not gonna
1111
01:22:33.810 --> 01:22:36.550
you know, it's essentially 20% fee
1112
01:22:36.885 --> 01:22:41.385
to stack a $100. It totally prices out that use case. And so
1113
01:22:42.245 --> 01:22:44.745
you can't do a biz trade on a lightning channel
1114
01:22:45.159 --> 01:22:48.540
for a lot of, technical reasons. Basically, you need a real blockchain.
1115
01:22:48.920 --> 01:22:54.935
Right? If there's any kind of trade dispute, you need to be able to show to the bisque mediator that, you know, here's a TXID
1116
01:22:55.554 --> 01:22:59.494
link on the MIMPL space explorer. Here's where I sent the money. Okay.
1117
01:22:59.955 --> 01:23:02.695
I you know, that and that keeps everyone honest.
1118
01:23:03.190 --> 01:23:06.730
And so it makes a lot of sense for Bisk to support
1119
01:23:07.350 --> 01:23:08.969
a layer to side chain
1120
01:23:09.270 --> 01:23:10.090
like liquid.
1121
01:23:11.094 --> 01:23:14.155
If not liquid, maybe No. You know, its own instance.
1122
01:23:14.535 --> 01:23:20.340
I mean, so that's a perfect example, Wiz. Right? It's because, like, I think liquid could be ideal for,
1123
01:23:20.900 --> 01:23:21.800
for bisque.
1124
01:23:23.460 --> 01:23:29.875
Why haven't you guys integrated it? Like, you're you're you're pretty you're pretty major on both on both sides. I mean, you have LBTC
1125
01:23:30.655 --> 01:23:32.035
enabled in Bisc now.
1126
01:23:33.020 --> 01:23:41.775
Well, it Why not why not why not Tether? Why don't you have the stable, you know, the stable coins on on liquid integrated into Bisq? It seems like a perfect
1127
01:23:43.054 --> 01:23:44.675
fit. Yeah. So so this is,
1128
01:23:45.215 --> 01:23:48.895
you know, there's only 24 hours in the day. I mean, Biscuit is essentially
1129
01:23:50.975 --> 01:23:51.475
yeah.
1130
01:23:52.230 --> 01:23:53.690
You know, there's only,
1131
01:23:54.390 --> 01:23:57.449
what, 5 or 6 guys that work full time on DISC.
1132
01:23:58.070 --> 01:24:00.870
There's only 2 guys that work full time on Memphol. It's,
1133
01:24:01.704 --> 01:24:08.525
there were some higher priority things. Like, simply adding Segway into this took years. Right? And that, was very difficult,
1134
01:24:08.900 --> 01:24:15.800
and I had to coordinate a lot of thing. But but we got it done, and we just shipped SegWiz. So, you know, now that the fees are rising,
1135
01:24:16.975 --> 01:24:17.715
the urgency
1136
01:24:18.095 --> 01:24:21.315
to implement liquid of course, I proposed it over a year ago,
1137
01:24:21.855 --> 01:24:29.289
but we just haven't gotten around to it because of the lack of developer resources and also because the fees didn't get so expensive until
1138
01:24:29.590 --> 01:24:31.690
very recently in the past couple months. So
1139
01:24:32.915 --> 01:24:36.775
a layer 2 solution is absolutely needed for bisque. And,
1140
01:24:37.395 --> 01:24:39.015
there there's also another proposal,
1141
01:24:39.555 --> 01:24:40.435
very very,
1142
01:24:40.995 --> 01:24:41.495
technical
1143
01:24:41.950 --> 01:24:43.330
using bonds and whatnot.
1144
01:24:43.710 --> 01:24:46.290
But I feel that liquid be would be the,
1145
01:24:46.989 --> 01:24:51.650
one of the best, solutions. So The the the token layer makes sense to me,
1146
01:24:52.065 --> 01:24:52.565
and
1147
01:24:53.025 --> 01:24:57.925
the token layer for Bitcoin makes sense to me. And and I've said in the past that that,
1148
01:24:58.920 --> 01:25:03.980
that that that Liquid is basically Ripple without the shit coin. It's a little unfair to Liquid,
1149
01:25:04.440 --> 01:25:05.740
because it it is
1150
01:25:06.235 --> 01:25:09.295
it is a way cleaner code base than, Ripple.
1151
01:25:10.875 --> 01:25:18.070
But but but for the average user, I think that's, like, a relatively good way of looking at it. It's like this idea that you basically traded off centralization.
1152
01:25:20.825 --> 01:25:24.445
You you're you're accepting some level of centralization for cheaper
1153
01:25:24.905 --> 01:25:26.845
cheaper transactions and faster transactions.
1154
01:25:28.520 --> 01:25:30.780
The token idea makes sense to me.
1155
01:25:31.320 --> 01:25:37.025
Basically, though, the only two things that make sense is, like, a a fiat token, which is just a stopgap,
1156
01:25:37.885 --> 01:25:39.825
and, like, illegal securities.
1157
01:25:41.565 --> 01:25:46.250
Illegal secure I mean, I'm not gonna fall into that trap, but unregistered securities,
1158
01:25:46.630 --> 01:25:50.330
which is, you know, where the best token falls in, and that kinda makes sense to me.
1159
01:25:50.869 --> 01:25:59.365
It's just weird. Like, I know the lightning guys are trying to make that a thing as well on lightning. I don't you know, I'm not that bullish on that. So so I I see that happening,
1160
01:25:59.680 --> 01:26:03.460
and I also see this idea that it's kind of cool that you can, like, coin join between
1161
01:26:04.640 --> 01:26:21.850
like, you can have BSQ on liquid. You can have Tether on liquid. You can have infinite fleets, spaceship on liquid, and you can have SATS on liquid, and you can coinjoin them all together, and no one could tell which is which. Is it it seems pretty powerful, and I'm surprised no one's working on it. They should they should focus on that.
1162
01:26:22.790 --> 01:26:27.935
To the to the viewers who are watching, we, you know, have made a big point on Citadel Dispatch
1163
01:26:28.475 --> 01:26:32.255
to always show the best price. So the best price is currently trading at $52,195,
1164
01:26:35.260 --> 01:26:39.920
and the evil empire Coinbase is on the top, and they're trading at $49,000
1165
01:26:40.780 --> 01:26:41.425
right now.
1166
01:26:43.425 --> 01:26:45.844
So just just as just as an update.
1167
01:26:47.264 --> 01:26:51.364
So I like to pivot this conversation a little bit. I'm really enjoying it.
1168
01:26:52.050 --> 01:26:55.350
One of the things that I've I've I tried to
1169
01:26:56.050 --> 01:27:01.395
flex because I just enjoy it. I mean, what what what's the point of all of this if we don't have a good time?
1170
01:27:03.075 --> 01:27:05.575
I want I have you guys both on
1171
01:27:05.955 --> 01:27:08.695
my show. I want I want to have you on the record.
1172
01:27:09.020 --> 01:27:11.760
Do you think Bitcoin is designed to pump forever?
1173
01:27:12.300 --> 01:27:14.080
And I want to have Simon
1174
01:27:14.540 --> 01:27:15.600
answer this first.
1175
01:27:16.355 --> 01:27:17.335
Yeah. Of course.
1176
01:27:18.355 --> 01:27:19.095
No doubt.
1177
01:27:21.555 --> 01:27:22.455
What's the question?
1178
01:27:23.290 --> 01:27:25.949
Oh, you you do you think Bitcoin is designed to pump forever?
1179
01:27:27.449 --> 01:27:28.350
Yeah. Yeah?
1180
01:27:29.050 --> 01:27:32.895
That's it. Powers the whole world. Right? And then it's gonna
1181
01:27:33.275 --> 01:27:36.175
appreciate about at the same pace as the,
1182
01:27:38.315 --> 01:27:39.615
economic growth, basically.
1183
01:27:39.960 --> 01:27:41.480
So all the values of
1184
01:27:42.199 --> 01:27:44.300
all the products and services is gonna
1185
01:27:44.679 --> 01:27:44.920
be,
1186
01:27:45.880 --> 01:27:49.260
measured in Bitcoin, be about maybe 2% cheaper every year.
1187
01:27:52.914 --> 01:27:53.655
I agree.
1188
01:27:54.275 --> 01:27:59.890
That that that is what is gonna happen. And I think it Wizz, are you on on board with us on this?
1189
01:28:00.510 --> 01:28:02.930
Well, if you read the Bitcoin standard,
1190
01:28:03.550 --> 01:28:05.410
you can learn a lot of things about,
1191
01:28:05.870 --> 01:28:06.245
the history of
1192
01:28:15.540 --> 01:28:18.679
to the hardest store of value. And so,
1193
01:28:19.300 --> 01:28:20.440
obviously, there's,
1194
01:28:20.820 --> 01:28:21.880
you know, an infinite
1195
01:28:22.260 --> 01:28:23.719
supply of fiat money.
1196
01:28:24.715 --> 01:28:28.415
You can print out as an infinite amount of US dollars. So
1197
01:28:28.795 --> 01:28:36.840
if if you consider, quote, unquote, pump, what does pump mean? If you you mean the price of Bitcoin measurement fiat money? Yeah. I mean, I'm being provocative.
1198
01:28:37.220 --> 01:28:44.685
I'm intentionally being provocative in using the word pump. I I I don't know if if the freak saw I I nailed an interview with,
1199
01:28:45.245 --> 01:28:46.225
Anthony Scaramucci,
1200
01:28:48.820 --> 01:28:56.679
And I intentionally knew he was provocative, so I asked him this question. And he he, like, called me out. He was like, well, that's a very provocative word choice you used.
1201
01:28:57.055 --> 01:29:01.235
But, like, that's the point. Right? Yeah. I I think it'll increase in purchasing power forever.
1202
01:29:03.135 --> 01:29:06.195
Right. It's, it's it's kinda like the new gold.
1203
01:29:07.099 --> 01:29:11.360
And if you look, you know, in the history of of hard money, you know,
1204
01:29:12.300 --> 01:29:13.520
all the the value,
1205
01:29:14.300 --> 01:29:21.385
gets soaked up into this hard money. So, yeah, it it does increase in in its purchasing power over time,
1206
01:29:22.380 --> 01:29:26.400
until something better comes along, which I don't understand how you could have something,
1207
01:29:27.660 --> 01:29:31.005
better than Bitcoin. But but, yeah, I mean, of course, it's gonna pump forever.
1208
01:29:32.605 --> 01:29:34.205
If you if you study any,
1209
01:29:34.685 --> 01:29:35.905
economics or anything,
1210
01:29:36.925 --> 01:29:43.350
this is the new hardest form of money. It's gonna be harder than gold. And and once the, you know, the 21,000,000
1211
01:29:43.890 --> 01:29:49.675
cap is is hit, the stock to flow ratio is basically infinite. So what's harder than that?
1212
01:29:51.255 --> 01:29:53.114
I mean, I would even argue that,
1213
01:29:54.215 --> 01:29:59.080
now that we have this ledger, right, now that we have this global ledger that is agreed upon,
1214
01:30:00.580 --> 01:30:02.199
even in some kind of
1215
01:30:05.535 --> 01:30:06.035
theoretical
1216
01:30:06.415 --> 01:30:12.915
amazing new technology comes out to replace Bitcoin as the best money, it would still use,
1217
01:30:14.410 --> 01:30:17.310
the, you know, the tip of our ledger
1218
01:30:17.930 --> 01:30:23.230
as the consensus point to launch their own ledger. Otherwise, it wouldn't be taken seriously.
1219
01:30:23.535 --> 01:30:24.035
Right?
1220
01:30:25.455 --> 01:30:28.035
Right. It's kind of like if you're gonna issue gold certificates
1221
01:30:28.415 --> 01:30:32.594
or or something, they're still settled in gold coins or gold bars.
1222
01:30:33.060 --> 01:30:34.520
It'll it'll be the new,
1223
01:30:35.300 --> 01:30:35.800
default
1224
01:30:36.340 --> 01:30:37.960
way to settle any transaction.
1225
01:30:41.345 --> 01:30:47.045
Well, I'm glad we agree on that. I've had yet to have a list I've yet to have a guest disagree with it.
1226
01:30:47.825 --> 01:30:50.005
But it I think it's important for
1227
01:30:50.330 --> 01:30:54.350
our grandkids that we have us all on the record saying so. So
1228
01:30:54.890 --> 01:30:58.590
I I will continue I will continue I will continue asking that question,
1229
01:30:59.185 --> 01:31:00.405
because I think it's important.
1230
01:31:01.345 --> 01:31:01.845
Freaks,
1231
01:31:02.385 --> 01:31:05.285
like, feel free to throw questions into
1232
01:31:05.880 --> 01:31:09.500
the chat. We you know, no questions are off off limits,
1233
01:31:09.960 --> 01:31:11.900
and we're happy to answer them.
1234
01:31:13.965 --> 01:31:16.304
The next thing I have for you guys is,
1235
01:31:16.605 --> 01:31:21.025
Simon, we'll start with you again because you've been quiet, and I wanna hear from you.
1236
01:31:23.100 --> 01:31:29.075
Is it possible for the US government to kill Bitcoin? And if the US government were to kill Bitcoin, how would they do it?
1237
01:31:32.275 --> 01:31:32.775
Well,
1238
01:31:33.155 --> 01:31:40.360
nothing can really kill Bitcoin. They could hurt Bitcoin a lot. They could hurt the price a lot if the impose a global ban.
1239
01:31:41.380 --> 01:31:42.440
If they could
1240
01:31:43.060 --> 01:31:45.880
print a lot of fiat, they could buy up a lot of
1241
01:31:46.315 --> 01:31:49.135
miners and start trying to make a 51%
1242
01:31:49.515 --> 01:31:53.775
attack. So there's a lot of theoretical attacks that they could do.
1243
01:31:54.875 --> 01:31:55.375
But
1244
01:31:56.080 --> 01:32:01.380
they would never be able to kill the network, I I don't think. As long as there's, like, one node somewhere keeping
1245
01:32:01.680 --> 01:32:02.340
the blockchain
1246
01:32:02.880 --> 01:32:05.460
and there's at least some a few miners somewhere,
1247
01:32:05.825 --> 01:32:08.645
it's gonna just stay alive and kicking. And
1248
01:32:09.345 --> 01:32:10.785
then eventually, it's just gonna
1249
01:32:11.665 --> 01:32:15.205
the US government's gonna give up, and it's gonna it's gonna win.
1250
01:32:19.130 --> 01:32:20.510
What was the second question?
1251
01:32:21.210 --> 01:32:24.590
No. That was the question. That was, I mean, that was a very good answer.
1252
01:32:24.975 --> 01:32:28.035
Yeah. I mean, I I really appreciate the insight. Wiz,
1253
01:32:28.655 --> 01:32:39.260
US government It's killing Bitcoin. I and and the reason I ask just to be clear, I'm not being American centric. I think that the US government is the most sophisticated actor that might wanna kill Bitcoin. So, like, we should assume,
1254
01:32:40.440 --> 01:32:44.445
the most sophisticated attack. Right? We should assume that we shouldn't assume,
1255
01:32:45.625 --> 01:32:56.790
you know, some random schmuck wants to destroy Bitcoin. We should assume that the most sophisticated attacker on the planet is gonna do it. So if you don't want it to be the US government, it could be the Chinese government, you know, I guess, like, someone there. Right?
1256
01:32:57.810 --> 01:33:06.915
Well, first of all, Matt, that's a very provocative question. And, second of all, you need to define both the words kill and
1257
01:33:07.455 --> 01:33:08.435
the word Bitcoin.
1258
01:33:08.820 --> 01:33:16.600
Right? What exact what exactly is Bitcoin, and what exactly does it mean to kill it? And I'll give you I'll give you an
1259
01:33:17.140 --> 01:33:17.640
analogy.
1260
01:33:18.665 --> 01:33:21.245
How would the US government kill the Internet?
1261
01:33:21.705 --> 01:33:22.205
Well,
1262
01:33:23.065 --> 01:33:23.965
if I
1263
01:33:24.425 --> 01:33:30.920
run a Ethernet cable from my Wi Fi router to your Wi Fi router and we exchange routes, we are Internetworking.
1264
01:33:31.380 --> 01:33:34.280
And so, therefore, we have our own Internet.
1265
01:33:34.660 --> 01:33:36.760
It's not the global Internet, but,
1266
01:33:37.324 --> 01:33:46.560
you can partition the network. Does that mean you kill the Internet if the if you split it in 2? Well, not really. You know? It's just, like, separate. So,
1267
01:33:47.580 --> 01:33:49.040
how would you kill Bitcoin?
1268
01:33:49.740 --> 01:33:54.305
I mean, as Simon just said, as long as there's one node and one miner running,
1269
01:33:55.165 --> 01:33:57.425
Bitcoin still exists. And,
1270
01:33:58.850 --> 01:34:04.070
you know, you it's kind of immortal in that sense, in that the sense that, Bitcoin is just this idea
1271
01:34:04.530 --> 01:34:05.350
of a system,
1272
01:34:05.810 --> 01:34:08.245
just like the Internet. It's just a it's just a conceptual,
1273
01:34:09.825 --> 01:34:10.325
idea.
1274
01:34:11.025 --> 01:34:11.525
And,
1275
01:34:12.465 --> 01:34:12.965
anytime
1276
01:34:13.585 --> 01:34:14.885
2 computers exchange,
1277
01:34:15.340 --> 01:34:19.120
you know, data, you could call that Internetworking. So, you know, what's,
1278
01:34:20.620 --> 01:34:26.085
what does it mean to kill Bitcoin? Even if there was some 0 day exploit in the code,
1279
01:34:26.865 --> 01:34:30.565
some where they could inflate the supply, we would just you know,
1280
01:34:30.950 --> 01:34:44.265
the community would get together and say, yeah. As of this block, the you know, the supply was correct, so we'll just fork off from that point. And, you know, we have smart people who can fix it. If they try to do denial of service attacks,
1281
01:34:45.364 --> 01:34:48.344
you know, we we would respond. I mean, basically,
1282
01:34:50.199 --> 01:34:52.460
yes, the US government is very strong,
1283
01:34:52.840 --> 01:34:53.340
actor,
1284
01:34:53.800 --> 01:34:57.420
but all the rest of the entire Bitcoin community is arguably
1285
01:34:57.785 --> 01:34:59.085
stronger as a collective,
1286
01:34:59.705 --> 01:35:04.364
force. And this is visible, like, when you when you talk about, well, can the US government shut down the Internet?
1287
01:35:04.720 --> 01:35:10.180
Maybe in the very early days, they could have, but not anymore. Now the Internet is this global thing
1288
01:35:10.560 --> 01:35:10.800
that,
1289
01:35:12.285 --> 01:35:18.305
you know, is arguably bigger than the US. Right? And, now the majority of the the Internet
1290
01:35:18.845 --> 01:35:24.760
services like Google or or, you know, Amazon, all the big, Silicon Valley guys are there.
1291
01:35:25.140 --> 01:35:36.205
But, you know, look at the the China's Internet. Right? China's Internet is not. It has, like, a very limited connectivity to the global Internet. Right? So did China kill the Internet?
1292
01:35:36.585 --> 01:35:39.199
Well, not completely. They just kind of,
1293
01:35:39.920 --> 01:35:42.820
filtered off a bunch of it and they made their own intranet,
1294
01:35:43.679 --> 01:35:49.405
so to speak. Right? So, like, when you look at how a nation's what a nation state might do to kill Bitcoin,
1295
01:35:50.505 --> 01:35:51.725
that's that's a very,
1296
01:35:52.665 --> 01:35:55.280
vague thing. They might try and, you
1297
01:35:56.300 --> 01:35:58.239
know, tweak it to their,
1298
01:35:59.020 --> 01:36:01.039
agenda. Right? Like, for example,
1299
01:36:01.980 --> 01:36:02.719
they might
1300
01:36:03.375 --> 01:36:10.595
issue their own central bank digital currencies that are backed by Bitcoin that they control, that they can do mass surveillance on.
1301
01:36:11.260 --> 01:36:12.640
Is that killing Bitcoin?
1302
01:36:13.340 --> 01:36:22.175
You know, there there's a lot of, open ended questions. There's a lot of directions they could go in to try and control it. But at the end of the day, it's really about controlling the people
1303
01:36:22.475 --> 01:36:23.295
and controlling,
1304
01:36:24.235 --> 01:36:25.534
the freedom of information
1305
01:36:25.915 --> 01:36:31.880
and the privacy of information. And as long as we have the Internet, I don't feel that's possible because
1306
01:36:32.260 --> 01:36:33.160
we can always
1307
01:36:33.620 --> 01:36:40.005
encrypt data between each other. We can always, you know, have our Raspberry Pis form a peer to peer network over Tor or other,
1308
01:36:40.385 --> 01:36:45.350
you know, upper layer peer to peer networks that are secure. So there's a lot of,
1309
01:36:45.910 --> 01:36:53.035
tools that the cypherpunks have, and the cypherpunks always win at the end of the day. Right? I I can't really see any nation state,
1310
01:36:53.915 --> 01:36:58.575
quote, unquote, killing Bitcoin just like I can't see any nation state killing the Internet.
1311
01:37:01.250 --> 01:37:05.190
Right. I mean, it it definitely was provocative, intentionally provocative.
1312
01:37:05.889 --> 01:37:09.575
It is a recurring provocative segment on the show. I,
1313
01:37:15.635 --> 01:37:20.349
they they the the powers that be can make it so that the average user,
1314
01:37:21.210 --> 01:37:24.989
has more issues. Right? That is, like, it's less accessible.
1315
01:37:25.295 --> 01:37:28.835
But this idea that they can squash free open source software is,
1316
01:37:30.094 --> 01:37:37.180
it seems like at this point is a false idea. Right? Like, the this idea that you can squash free speech on the Internet
1317
01:37:37.960 --> 01:37:41.580
and and free open source software as a derivative free speech
1318
01:37:43.215 --> 01:37:48.514
is is it pretty much a futile goal? Like, if someone is motivated, they're gonna be able to access it. Right?
1319
01:37:48.974 --> 01:38:00.000
I mean, the US government, the the cypherpunks already had this, battle and won back in the nineties. They're really the OG cypherpunks like, Daniel j Bernstein or Adam Back. You know?
1320
01:38:00.585 --> 01:38:03.485
They literally took it to the supreme court and,
1321
01:38:04.745 --> 01:38:12.340
you know, got, like, a court ruling that says code is free speech. They were literally, like, printing code on T shirts and printing source code in books.
1322
01:38:12.720 --> 01:38:15.935
And, you know, because the US government was trying to,
1323
01:38:16.495 --> 01:38:17.715
they they called it the
1324
01:38:18.095 --> 01:38:19.715
export of munitions.
1325
01:38:20.335 --> 01:38:35.905
They were trying to say that cryptography is some kind of weapon, and so you can't export it outside of the US, which which is how can you make math illegal, right, and code illegal, which is just free speech. So the the cypherpunks already fought that battle in the nineties and won free open source software is here to stay. Right?
1326
01:38:39.485 --> 01:38:40.385
Yeah. 100%.
1327
01:38:41.489 --> 01:38:45.030
I mean, I I so someone in the comments mentioned Satoshi stash.
1328
01:38:45.330 --> 01:38:48.790
I mean, like, what can you do with Satoshi stash? I guess you could tank the price.
1329
01:38:50.165 --> 01:38:52.265
Like, I I don't think that's really a vulnerability.
1330
01:38:53.045 --> 01:39:01.910
And so someone in comment mentioned that China or US would would create their own competitor, and I see a lot of that kind of FUD.
1331
01:39:02.770 --> 01:39:05.190
Recently, people think that the central bank,
1332
01:39:05.945 --> 01:39:13.885
digital currencies are gonna be somehow a comp competitor to Bitcoin, which doesn't make any sense at all because they're just
1333
01:39:14.370 --> 01:39:15.909
another version of Fiat
1334
01:39:16.210 --> 01:39:19.510
centralized currency with the same flaws that Bitcoin came to solve.
1335
01:39:21.305 --> 01:39:24.765
I just wanted to answer that comment as well. That's an interesting
1336
01:39:25.145 --> 01:39:26.685
question, though. Right? Because,
1337
01:39:27.625 --> 01:39:31.005
I I actually think that's one of the, probably better
1338
01:39:31.370 --> 01:39:31.870
attack
1339
01:39:32.250 --> 01:39:32.570
vectors is,
1340
01:39:34.409 --> 01:39:37.870
and China is is, again, always, like, a good example. Like,
1341
01:39:38.855 --> 01:39:41.435
China made their own Internet. Right? They
1342
01:39:41.815 --> 01:39:48.760
they banned all the the US services like Google and YouTube and Twitter, and they made their own domestic versions, which they
1343
01:39:49.719 --> 01:39:50.460
control and
1344
01:39:51.000 --> 01:39:52.219
all the people use.
1345
01:39:52.840 --> 01:40:01.595
You know, first, because of the language barrier and the network effects of all the Chinese people using the domestic Chinese versions of these apps.
1346
01:40:01.975 --> 01:40:04.475
But second of all, because of the actual totalitarian,
1347
01:40:05.255 --> 01:40:08.170
you know, great firewall of China that
1348
01:40:08.470 --> 01:40:12.170
locks them from accessing it, without a VPN or a Tor or something.
1349
01:40:12.470 --> 01:40:14.650
And so in theory, you could
1350
01:40:15.255 --> 01:40:20.235
do the same kind of system, but in order to do so, you would have to also control the Internet.
1351
01:40:20.855 --> 01:40:21.675
And so
1352
01:40:22.560 --> 01:40:24.900
when when you're talking about the US government doing it,
1353
01:40:25.679 --> 01:40:32.905
fortunately, you know, the the Internet is not regulated in free countries like US or Japan. But in,
1354
01:40:33.765 --> 01:40:38.665
you know, totalitarian countries like China, for example, where they do control the Internet quite a bit,
1355
01:40:39.285 --> 01:40:40.585
it's much more likely
1356
01:40:40.950 --> 01:40:44.550
that they can coerce the users to using a,
1357
01:40:44.950 --> 01:40:47.290
central bank digital currency. However,
1358
01:40:47.830 --> 01:40:52.755
as the Bitcoin standard toss is that, you know, peep when it comes to people's
1359
01:40:53.375 --> 01:40:57.795
money, they get really, smart and they wanna protect it. And so,
1360
01:40:58.610 --> 01:40:59.590
it it'll certainly
1361
01:41:00.130 --> 01:41:00.610
be,
1362
01:41:01.170 --> 01:41:12.155
probably one area of resistance or one attack vector that, a country like China could do. But I don't see the US government being able to you know, who's gonna want a digital USD token,
1363
01:41:12.855 --> 01:41:22.270
that's controlled by the US government when you could have a free token? Right? Like, if you put them side by side on the menu, you're gonna pick Bitcoin every time. But in China, they're gonna try and lock that,
1364
01:41:22.650 --> 01:41:32.165
Bitcoin option at some point or they they already are. There's already ban in China, but people are using it. I think it's huge there, and they're using it for to evade the capital controls
1365
01:41:32.560 --> 01:41:35.860
them in China. And they definitely see the difference between Bitcoin
1366
01:41:36.239 --> 01:41:37.219
and their digital
1367
01:41:37.679 --> 01:41:41.380
Chinese yuan, which is to totally controlled and surveilled.
1368
01:41:41.775 --> 01:41:44.435
I don't see any what's what's gonna be different with
1369
01:41:44.815 --> 01:41:47.395
a central bank digital currency. So,
1370
01:41:48.575 --> 01:41:53.940
it's impossible to compete with Bitcoin, which is this free alternative outside the system.
1371
01:41:54.960 --> 01:41:57.700
What you see, right, is what you see is that,
1372
01:41:58.925 --> 01:42:02.385
the easiest way to compete with these censorship resistance
1373
01:42:02.765 --> 01:42:09.080
networks and these distributed networks is to offer a better serve a a more convenient service
1374
01:42:09.380 --> 01:42:12.680
that has different trade offs, but is more convenient to the average user.
1375
01:42:13.540 --> 01:42:16.925
And and we saw that with piracy in the western states.
1376
01:42:18.344 --> 01:42:27.620
You know, BitTorrent was the easiest way to access videos, and then Netflix came in and they were like, if you pay us $10 a month, we'll make it more convenient for you.
1377
01:42:28.320 --> 01:42:29.380
And since then,
1378
01:42:30.080 --> 01:42:30.820
it's actually,
1379
01:42:31.315 --> 01:42:43.280
you know, bifurcated a little bit. It's it's it's all of a sudden, you have to have all these different services, and you have to sign up for all these different services. It's not just a single service. It's become more difficult again, and we see this resurgence in BitTorrent.
1380
01:42:43.660 --> 01:42:44.700
Right? And,
1381
01:42:45.260 --> 01:42:47.840
I I I could see maybe the same idea,
1382
01:42:49.075 --> 01:42:51.175
if you were gonna try and compete with Bitcoin,
1383
01:42:51.555 --> 01:42:52.295
you offer
1384
01:42:52.835 --> 01:42:53.335
maybe,
1385
01:42:54.275 --> 01:43:00.960
fiat that isn't shitty as as hell, You know? Like, you offer Fiat that that that isn't censorship,
1386
01:43:01.260 --> 01:43:04.240
that there's no censorship, that it isn't, like, getting inflated.
1387
01:43:04.675 --> 01:43:13.175
But at the at the same time, people are greedy, and and that won't last. It'll never last. It didn't last in terms of offering a competitor to BitTorrent,
1388
01:43:13.500 --> 01:43:17.600
and it won't last in in terms of offering a competitor Bitcoin. Like, there's no way
1389
01:43:17.980 --> 01:43:20.000
that the powers that be will offer
1390
01:43:20.620 --> 01:43:21.120
a
1391
01:43:21.635 --> 01:43:25.895
dollar that gives you any kind of censorship resistance or any kind of,
1392
01:43:27.715 --> 01:43:29.655
store of value long term. Right?
1393
01:43:31.360 --> 01:43:34.579
Yeah. I mean, they're not gonna be able to compete with
1394
01:43:34.960 --> 01:43:40.035
the convenience thing because that's it's already super convenient to swipe your Mastercard or,
1395
01:43:40.415 --> 01:43:42.275
use Venmo or whatever you're using
1396
01:43:42.655 --> 01:43:52.400
depending on which country you live in. So it's not a convenience thing. So how how would they to compete with Bitcoin, they would need to be censorship resistant and inflation resistant, and
1397
01:43:52.835 --> 01:43:56.775
that's not gonna happen. We all know that's not gonna happen. That's why I don't see any
1398
01:43:58.275 --> 01:43:58.775
competition
1399
01:43:59.955 --> 01:44:00.695
from these
1400
01:44:01.079 --> 01:44:03.340
new central bank digital currencies. Right?
1401
01:44:04.760 --> 01:44:14.925
Well, I think was it Visa or Mastercard just announced that they're going to support BTC denominated credit cards? Did you guys hear about that? Yeah. I mean, that obviously is,
1402
01:44:15.465 --> 01:44:16.125
you know,
1403
01:44:17.000 --> 01:44:19.980
not gonna be censorship resistant at all. It's gonna be custodial.
1404
01:44:20.760 --> 01:44:22.220
Right. But the point is it's,
1405
01:44:23.985 --> 01:44:25.445
you know, fighting against
1406
01:44:26.304 --> 01:44:31.364
the central bank's digital coin. Right? Like, if if you have all the convenience benefits of
1407
01:44:32.065 --> 01:44:33.364
using a credit card
1408
01:44:33.880 --> 01:44:37.740
and all the inflation resistant benefits of using only Bitcoin,
1409
01:44:38.440 --> 01:44:41.660
then why would anyone want this, USD shit coin. Right?
1410
01:44:42.120 --> 01:44:42.620
Right.
1411
01:44:44.725 --> 01:44:48.565
Yeah. I mean, I I think it's just it's it just goes all the way. Like, there's
1412
01:44:49.445 --> 01:44:55.360
they can't compete. Like, no company compete can compete with Bitcoin. No government can compete with Bitcoin.
1413
01:44:55.660 --> 01:44:59.520
Because, like, even if for some, like, amazing theoretical
1414
01:44:59.980 --> 01:45:00.480
scenario,
1415
01:45:01.275 --> 01:45:03.055
like, the US government was, like, Americans
1416
01:45:05.115 --> 01:45:09.535
will have no restrictions with using this this digital cash
1417
01:45:09.850 --> 01:45:21.015
that we offer. They're not gonna allow other governments to use it, like, willy nilly. They're not gonna allow, like, other citizens to use it. Like, it'll never happen. That's never gonna happen, and,
1418
01:45:21.875 --> 01:45:28.360
you know, maybe in a theoretical, it competes, but they're just, like, humans will never allow that to happen. And that's the beauty of Bitcoin. The beauty of Bitcoin
1419
01:45:28.900 --> 01:45:34.680
is that you don't, you know, you don't have to rely on the strength of humans. You just have to rely on their greed, and humans are
1420
01:45:35.105 --> 01:45:36.885
are very reliably greedy.
1421
01:45:37.345 --> 01:45:37.845
Uh-huh.
1422
01:45:38.225 --> 01:45:43.605
And and and it's very cool that you can just rely on that greed and know that you're secure because of that.
1423
01:45:45.900 --> 01:45:50.400
We had a a very good question that I have highlighted here from 21ism,
1424
01:45:50.780 --> 01:45:51.920
Bitcoin Art Collective.
1425
01:45:52.775 --> 01:45:55.515
Where would we be without Tor? Should we be concerned
1426
01:45:56.135 --> 01:46:02.074
that Tor reliable Tor seems like the network has just been under attack constantly for the last couple weeks.
1427
01:46:03.480 --> 01:46:08.059
It seems like, honestly, that the development team isn't really taking censorship resistance
1428
01:46:08.360 --> 01:46:12.465
that seriously. They kinda just assume the US government will provide cover for them,
1429
01:46:14.605 --> 01:46:16.065
and the the
1430
01:46:17.085 --> 01:46:24.639
the dialogue from them has just not been great. So are we concerned about this reliance on Tor? Are we are we fucked if Tor
1431
01:46:25.340 --> 01:46:28.425
disappears tomorrow? Like, where where should we stand here?
1432
01:46:29.545 --> 01:46:30.764
Yeah. That's a good question.
1433
01:46:31.385 --> 01:46:32.105
A few
1434
01:46:32.505 --> 01:46:35.005
I guess, a month or so ago, the Bisk,
1435
01:46:35.784 --> 01:46:36.925
Dow had its first
1436
01:46:37.270 --> 01:46:40.889
consensus failure because Tor v 3 onions were completely
1437
01:46:41.590 --> 01:46:43.369
broken for, like, a couple days
1438
01:46:44.285 --> 01:46:47.185
from apparently some kind of nation state level attack.
1439
01:46:47.725 --> 01:46:48.225
And,
1440
01:46:48.844 --> 01:46:50.785
yeah, I mean, if if this
1441
01:46:51.370 --> 01:46:57.469
routes a 100% of its traffic through Tor and Tor stops working, well, then this stops working too. Right? So
1442
01:46:59.205 --> 01:47:03.785
I I think, again, at the end of the day, the cypherpunks will are smart, and they'll figure out
1443
01:47:04.165 --> 01:47:06.825
better, newer, more censorship resistant
1444
01:47:07.660 --> 01:47:09.340
technologies. And there's even other,
1445
01:47:09.740 --> 01:47:10.640
like I2P.
1446
01:47:11.100 --> 01:47:12.080
You ever heard of that?
1447
01:47:12.860 --> 01:47:14.000
There there's some other
1448
01:47:14.855 --> 01:47:21.195
Yeah. But ITP is like Butterfly Labs of private networks. You know? It's like Sure. Where is it?
1449
01:47:22.110 --> 01:47:26.290
Sure. It's it's just, you know, a random example, but I'm saying, like, there are other
1450
01:47:26.750 --> 01:47:31.865
technologies out there besides Tor. And and, again, you always have to use the right tool for the right job.
1451
01:47:33.045 --> 01:47:37.125
You could use, you know, sometimes maybe a VPN point to point or,
1452
01:47:37.710 --> 01:47:38.510
you know, maybe
1453
01:47:38.910 --> 01:47:42.050
yeah. There there's lots of technologies on the Internet to do,
1454
01:47:42.590 --> 01:47:43.650
censorship resistance,
1455
01:47:44.989 --> 01:47:45.489
including
1456
01:47:45.870 --> 01:47:58.420
clear net. You know? Like, if you need privacy, there's other ways to do that, by mixing your so, you know, Tor is great, and it's very important for like, we we use it a lot in Bitcoin and a lot of disk,
1457
01:47:59.360 --> 01:48:02.820
onions because it's so easy and so, well developed. But
1458
01:48:04.385 --> 01:48:11.365
if Tor died tomorrow, we would come up with something else that's probably much better and far superior, and,
1459
01:48:11.800 --> 01:48:15.020
you know, cypherpunks are smart. We'll we'll figure that out again.
1460
01:48:19.265 --> 01:48:22.565
I mean, that was a fantastic answer. Sami, do you have anything to add there?
1461
01:48:26.580 --> 01:48:31.800
Not that I can think of. No. The this is like Wizz's wheelhouse. He was, like, born to answer that question.
1462
01:48:36.065 --> 01:48:42.305
I mean, people keep try people love Elon with the Starlink shit. Like, are we bullish on Starlink in this,
1463
01:48:42.785 --> 01:48:43.765
in this conversation?
1464
01:48:44.940 --> 01:48:46.640
Oh, yeah. It's gonna be awesome.
1465
01:48:47.100 --> 01:48:48.000
I can't wait.
1466
01:48:48.380 --> 01:48:52.320
I mean, Starlink opens up, like, the great American outdoors.
1467
01:48:52.785 --> 01:48:54.725
Like, there people don't realize, like,
1468
01:48:55.665 --> 01:49:00.885
I mean I mean, if if you were paying attention to Luke Dash junior, you you you might realize.
1469
01:49:01.360 --> 01:49:03.219
But the majority of the US,
1470
01:49:05.520 --> 01:49:07.380
landscape is just horrible Internet.
1471
01:49:07.920 --> 01:49:11.060
So so the fact that that maybe I can buy
1472
01:49:12.625 --> 01:49:14.325
large acreages of land
1473
01:49:14.785 --> 01:49:16.645
in, the great American West
1474
01:49:17.425 --> 01:49:22.410
and have have reliable Internet along with it would be pretty big. But, of course, once again,
1475
01:49:23.110 --> 01:49:26.170
trust the third parties or security holes, and you're gonna have to trust,
1476
01:49:26.565 --> 01:49:30.425
you know, Starlink with that. Right? And we we don't wanna have too many nodes on
1477
01:49:30.804 --> 01:49:31.545
on Starlink.
1478
01:49:32.324 --> 01:49:37.930
Well, you don't need to trust your ISP because you can use technologies like VPNs and Tor.
1479
01:49:38.550 --> 01:49:40.570
So, we have to trust them with reliability.
1480
01:49:41.430 --> 01:49:42.250
So so
1481
01:49:42.550 --> 01:49:46.985
this is interesting. Right? So lightning is the only thing in my Internet
1482
01:49:47.925 --> 01:49:48.425
usage
1483
01:49:49.364 --> 01:49:50.985
that cares about reliability,
1484
01:49:51.605 --> 01:49:53.304
and no one talks about it.
1485
01:49:54.070 --> 01:50:01.210
Do you know what I you you know you understand where I'm coming from with this? Like, if if my note is down and I don't have a watchtower set up,
1486
01:50:02.065 --> 01:50:06.805
I'm susceptible to an attack. And if I'm a public Bitcoiner and I have a public
1487
01:50:07.505 --> 01:50:13.010
Bitcoin node, and let's say I'm in Texas and there's rolling blackouts in Texas,
1488
01:50:13.550 --> 01:50:17.969
like, all of a sudden my node is highly susceptible to attacks. Right?
1489
01:50:18.885 --> 01:50:21.785
Well, that's true of any layer to or upper layer,
1490
01:50:22.645 --> 01:50:23.945
application that,
1491
01:50:25.125 --> 01:50:29.739
you know, the Bitcoin is kind of unique in the sense where it's, quote, unquote, just a ledger
1492
01:50:30.120 --> 01:50:30.620
with
1493
01:50:31.000 --> 01:50:34.635
only transactions to update the ledger. Right? I mean, more or less, that's what it,
1494
01:50:35.514 --> 01:50:44.950
ends up being settled into at the end of the day. So you don't always have to be connected to the Bitcoin network all the time. But with pretty much any other higher layer application,
1495
01:50:45.970 --> 01:50:48.450
yeah, you'd need to be connected all the time. And,
1496
01:50:49.145 --> 01:51:00.989
there are ways to mitigate that using, as you said, like watch towers or basically just redundancy. Like, this is true of any service on the Internet. Right? You need multiple locations. You need failover. You need load balancing.
1497
01:51:01.770 --> 01:51:07.230
You need redundancy. And But if Coinbase goes down if Coinbase goes down, no one can steal their money.
1498
01:51:07.635 --> 01:51:14.775
Like, if my lightning node is in Austin, Texas and it goes down because of a rolling blackout, like, I could get my money taken.
1499
01:51:15.550 --> 01:51:20.050
That's why you need redundancy in the form of watch towers that are in multiple locations.
1500
01:51:20.590 --> 01:51:27.935
Yeah. Or in the case of lightning, you could limit your channels to people you trust. So lightning is, like, somewhat trusted.
1501
01:51:31.580 --> 01:51:34.880
Right. I don't like that answer. That second answer is not a good answer.
1502
01:51:35.660 --> 01:51:37.920
Yeah. Simon, we should trust, not verify.
1503
01:51:38.555 --> 01:51:39.455
Yeah. Lightning
1504
01:51:40.395 --> 01:51:42.975
is is much more sick more secure if you're
1505
01:51:43.355 --> 01:51:53.610
just opening channels to the one you actually know who you're opening channels to. Well, that's why I think it's funny. Right? Is that Liquid took over the mantle of, like, oh, we're the exchange to exchange
1506
01:51:54.070 --> 01:51:54.570
protocol.
1507
01:51:55.225 --> 01:52:04.284
But really, like, Lightning's perfect for that because, like, you try if you're one exchange and you have a relationship with the other exchange, like, it's super easy to have a large private channel with them.
1508
01:52:04.850 --> 01:52:06.150
On that use case.
1509
01:52:06.610 --> 01:52:08.470
I can't wait for that to happen.
1510
01:52:08.850 --> 01:52:15.355
But for, like, the average user for, like, me that I fucked that shit. I have no there's there's no value to me to have,
1511
01:52:16.295 --> 01:52:17.995
you know, like, trusted channels.
1512
01:52:19.970 --> 01:52:21.430
I I don't see the value.
1513
01:52:22.130 --> 01:52:25.510
Well, it the the as the higher you go up on the stack,
1514
01:52:26.130 --> 01:52:28.630
the more trade offs you typically make.
1515
01:52:29.855 --> 01:52:30.914
So for example,
1516
01:52:32.094 --> 01:52:33.954
a popular app these days
1517
01:52:34.335 --> 01:52:35.875
is Uber. Right?
1518
01:52:37.380 --> 01:52:38.040
Under that, you
1519
01:52:38.500 --> 01:52:43.800
you know, you it's just a fully trusted setup. And below that, you even you even have multiple
1520
01:52:44.725 --> 01:52:51.260
fully trusted lower layers. Like, Uber uses your credit card, which is a fully trusted thing. It you you know,
1521
01:52:52.460 --> 01:52:54.320
they're using probably Amazon
1522
01:52:54.860 --> 01:52:59.280
Cloud Services to power the Uber systems. So, like,
1523
01:53:00.675 --> 01:53:05.895
yeah, like, in the Bitcoin base layer, we can be the most distributed, the most secure,
1524
01:53:07.155 --> 01:53:07.635
the most,
1525
01:53:09.190 --> 01:53:22.804
don't trust verify oriented. But the higher up the stack you go, okay, you wanna layer 2 payment network lightning? Yeah. You're gonna have to make some security trade offs. Or you wanna use liquid, you're gonna use biscuit, yeah, you're gonna have to make some security trade offs for those new use cases. And if you want
1526
01:53:23.105 --> 01:53:24.085
extreme convenience,
1527
01:53:24.680 --> 01:53:29.340
then you typically have to go to a fully trusted setup. So it's it's a it's like this
1528
01:53:29.960 --> 01:53:30.460
sliding
1529
01:53:31.000 --> 01:53:33.340
slider bar on the spectrum of
1530
01:53:33.655 --> 01:53:34.715
trading convenience
1531
01:53:35.175 --> 01:53:35.675
for
1532
01:53:36.455 --> 01:53:37.435
trading convenience,
1533
01:53:38.375 --> 01:53:40.795
to lose security, privacy, and freedom. Right?
1534
01:53:41.230 --> 01:53:43.170
So if you want if you want
1535
01:53:43.870 --> 01:53:45.010
maximum security,
1536
01:53:45.469 --> 01:53:46.610
then always use
1537
01:53:47.070 --> 01:53:52.685
on chain Bitcoin transactions, but it's very expensive. Right? So Right. I mean, I I think
1538
01:53:53.065 --> 01:53:59.165
one of the unspoken things about Lightning that no one wants to talk about is that it creates, like, easy interoperable custodial networks.
1539
01:54:02.560 --> 01:54:04.180
Would you disagree with me?
1540
01:54:05.520 --> 01:54:10.474
I was just thinking about what that Because right. Like like, think about it. Like, if
1541
01:54:10.855 --> 01:54:14.155
if Wallet of Satoshi is running their custodial Lightning
1542
01:54:14.599 --> 01:54:23.099
and BlueWallet is running their custodial Lightning and some random ass custodial Lightning wallet in Russia decides they're gonna load up
1543
01:54:23.685 --> 01:54:24.985
their their network,
1544
01:54:25.365 --> 01:54:29.945
they can easily interact with the Blue Wallet and Wallet of Satoshi without any kind of,
1545
01:54:32.300 --> 01:54:38.800
not they don't they can reduce the trust of that relationship, and they can just, you know, have, like, a big channel between each other.
1546
01:54:39.425 --> 01:54:45.125
And as long as they're online and they have their watchtowers and whatnot, there's not much trust there, and it's it's minimized.
1547
01:54:45.505 --> 01:54:49.830
And it allows their individual users to all be custodial, though.
1548
01:54:51.010 --> 01:54:53.430
Yeah. Probably, like, a good,
1549
01:54:53.890 --> 01:54:54.390
analogy
1550
01:54:54.770 --> 01:54:56.950
for the, Fiat world is
1551
01:54:57.975 --> 01:55:02.955
check checks, like paper checks. Right? If 2 businesses do a lot of businesses,
1552
01:55:03.495 --> 01:55:09.480
if 2 companies do a lot of business between each other, they'll typically write a lot of checks to each other. And because they,
1553
01:55:09.780 --> 01:55:12.600
you know, grow their reputation and trust over time,
1554
01:55:13.540 --> 01:55:15.320
they're not so worried that
1555
01:55:15.704 --> 01:55:20.684
someone's gonna suddenly bounce a check. But if you if you open a channel with someone,
1556
01:55:21.385 --> 01:55:22.204
it's completely
1557
01:55:22.970 --> 01:55:34.205
untrusted. And you don't know what kind of attacks they might do. Right? Like, I think lightning hasn't seen its fair share of, attacks yet. And maybe now that the price is going up, we'll see this more. But I think it was like Ellen Big
1558
01:55:34.585 --> 01:55:40.445
that tweeted something like, yeah. Someone opened the channel to us, and then now they're doing a denial of service attack, and they're trying to
1559
01:55:40.930 --> 01:55:44.070
broadcast an old state. You know, they're trying to rip them off for money.
1560
01:55:44.449 --> 01:55:44.949
And,
1561
01:55:45.410 --> 01:55:48.835
you know, as we discussed before, if you don't have the watch tower set up, that's
1562
01:55:49.295 --> 01:55:51.235
a potential attack vector. So
1563
01:55:52.175 --> 01:56:03.850
I mean, Ellen Big could be attack. Right? Like, who who the fuck is Ellen Big? It's just some random dude that has 50% of the network, and it's all running out of the same Virginia data center that's, like, 30 minutes from Langley.
1564
01:56:06.005 --> 01:56:10.165
Yeah. I mean but you don't have to route through them. Right? I I mean
1565
01:56:10.885 --> 01:56:12.025
You kinda do.
1566
01:56:12.960 --> 01:56:20.820
Well, you could say that about the Internet. Right? Like, do you have to use the only ISP in your town or could you make your own ISP?
1567
01:56:21.280 --> 01:56:21.940
You know?
1568
01:56:22.545 --> 01:56:24.885
So there's always, like, more expensive
1569
01:56:26.065 --> 01:56:29.045
alternatives. It's just that you have to trade off that
1570
01:56:29.400 --> 01:56:33.020
security, privacy, and freedom for the cost or convenience. Right?
1571
01:56:35.080 --> 01:56:39.795
Yeah. I I just I it's just weird to me that, like, no one talks about the Ellen Big thing.
1572
01:56:42.255 --> 01:56:48.040
Like, I'm the only one who ever talks about it. And and and I tried to talk about it offline majority of time,
1573
01:56:49.620 --> 01:56:50.120
prerecorded,
1574
01:56:50.500 --> 01:56:52.075
and then, you know
1575
01:56:52.535 --> 01:56:59.915
now I just don't see people as much, so I just talk about it online. And because no one else is talking about it, so I feel like at this point, we just gotta talk about it.
1576
01:57:02.750 --> 01:57:04.610
Like, no one knows who that person is
1577
01:57:04.910 --> 01:57:05.490
at all.
1578
01:57:06.030 --> 01:57:11.505
Well, there's nothing wrong with being synonyms. But I mean No. But it's the key control he, she, they,
1579
01:57:12.205 --> 01:57:13.344
CIA control
1580
01:57:13.724 --> 01:57:15.105
50% of the network,
1581
01:57:15.810 --> 01:57:17.830
and it's all and even if they didn't
1582
01:57:18.210 --> 01:57:22.550
even if they're not malicious, it's all going through the same data center. Like, every single node
1583
01:57:22.905 --> 01:57:26.365
that they have is in the same data center in Virginia. So even
1584
01:57:26.745 --> 01:57:28.045
if they're not malicious,
1585
01:57:28.745 --> 01:57:32.125
someone could maliciously access all those nodes at the same time.
1586
01:57:32.750 --> 01:57:36.449
Well, is that okay. But what do you mean by quote about 50%
1587
01:57:36.750 --> 01:57:39.170
of the network? Do you mean 50% of the
1588
01:57:40.065 --> 01:57:42.565
routing capacity or Public routing capacity.
1589
01:57:43.264 --> 01:57:49.850
Public routing capacity. You could just blacklist those guys on your node never to route. Yeah. But no one blacklists them.
1590
01:57:51.110 --> 01:58:01.495
I blacklist them. I mean, I don't blacklist them. I just I'd close the channels if they open it with me. But but they're essentially blacklisted. They're manually blacklisted for Matodel nodes.
1591
01:58:03.155 --> 01:58:07.989
But still, most people don't. Like, the majority of nodes they interact with are have an lnbig
1592
01:58:08.370 --> 01:58:15.655
node connected to them with a Dell. What if they weren't what if they weren't tagging their nodes with lnbig and they just use random
1593
01:58:16.195 --> 01:58:29.590
tags? That's what's weird. Right? It shouldn't be an attack. It probably isn't an attack. Why would an attacker say, like, lnbig number 50, Ellen Bigg number 42 or whatever. But at the same time, like, what the fuck is going on, and why is no one talking about it? I it's like I
1594
01:58:30.905 --> 01:58:37.485
I I see your point. Like, sure, it could be some kind of, blockchain analysis company or or
1595
01:58:37.980 --> 01:58:40.239
in this case, off chain analysis company. But,
1596
01:58:41.179 --> 01:58:52.655
I think it's much more likely that it's just some OG Bitcoiner who has a lot of Bitcoin and wants to get a return on his Bitcoin in Sats. Right? But then, Wiz, why is he running it all in the same data center in Virginia?
1597
01:58:54.720 --> 01:58:57.940
Why not? I don't know. That's his thing. And they're all hot wallets. Right?
1598
01:59:00.320 --> 01:59:00.980
I mean,
1599
01:59:04.085 --> 01:59:11.340
what's wrong with some running something out of a data center? Just because it's in Virginia, that makes you because it's all this no. No. The issue I have is that it's all
1600
01:59:13.420 --> 01:59:20.719
the same data center. I mean And and, presumably, he's a NIM, so he doesn't live in, like, he doesn't live in Virginia. Otherwise, he's not gonna do,
1601
01:59:21.295 --> 01:59:22.995
like, he's not gonna do the
1602
01:59:23.615 --> 01:59:27.075
the data center that's, like, down the street from his home. Right?
1603
01:59:27.775 --> 01:59:29.075
So Why not?
1604
01:59:30.050 --> 01:59:35.670
Maybe maybe he did. Maybe he did, and he knows the guy who operates it, and then everything's cozy. But,
1605
01:59:36.185 --> 01:59:41.085
you know, barring that, like, a lot of people say, like, oh, he's a Russian OG. Like, so he's a Russian OG,
1606
01:59:41.785 --> 01:59:47.850
and then he's running. I I I don't know. I'm not trying to dox the guy. It's just it's just something that no one really talks about,
1607
01:59:48.230 --> 01:59:50.410
and I feel like Wiz is, like, the perfect person.
1608
01:59:51.190 --> 01:59:53.050
I mean, you could say the same thing about
1609
01:59:53.590 --> 01:59:54.810
many other there's,
1610
01:59:55.115 --> 01:59:59.855
like, bit refill runs a huge node, ASIC runs a huge node, open node.
1611
02:00:00.635 --> 02:00:04.815
You know, all of these I'm concerned about them, but at least we know who they are. Right?
1612
02:00:06.380 --> 02:00:06.880
Well,
1613
02:00:07.420 --> 02:00:09.199
I mean, is your concern
1614
02:00:09.500 --> 02:00:13.040
that they're, like, you know, logging all of the routing
1615
02:00:13.435 --> 02:00:19.375
and invading your privacy kind of thing? Well, I mean, I'm the only look. Jack Mallers is my boy.
1616
02:00:20.235 --> 02:00:23.150
I'm the only person who I've ever heard
1617
02:00:23.690 --> 02:00:30.350
on on any of these big Bitcoin podcasts talk about the concerns over centralization risk over lnstryke,
1618
02:00:31.585 --> 02:00:39.685
and KYC, and him, like, taking over liquidity on the network and knowing all these different public key the public keys of all the different nodes and whatnot.
1619
02:00:40.900 --> 02:00:45.800
I brought that up many times. I brought that up in in an interview with him on live,
1620
02:00:47.035 --> 02:00:56.415
And I I a 100%, I'm I'm concerned about Bitrefill becoming massive. I'm concerned about River's node becoming massive. I'm concerned about Bitfinex's node becoming massive.
1621
02:00:57.500 --> 02:01:00.000
I I my concerns with Lightning
1622
02:01:00.940 --> 02:01:05.765
sound like a shit corners concerns. Like, my concerns are that it becomes hub and spoke, KYC
1623
02:01:06.145 --> 02:01:08.565
regulated, super centralized. Right?
1624
02:01:09.825 --> 02:01:10.805
The the mitigation
1625
02:01:11.825 --> 02:01:13.685
is I need the freaks
1626
02:01:14.560 --> 02:01:16.740
out there that are listening right now
1627
02:01:17.120 --> 02:01:19.380
to to run their own lightning nodes,
1628
02:01:19.920 --> 02:01:24.605
that run them through Tor only so that their IPs aren't exposed on a hardware they control,
1629
02:01:26.025 --> 02:01:29.885
and run their own public, you know, their own public routing channels.
1630
02:01:31.239 --> 02:01:33.900
That's what we need. That's the solution. I just
1631
02:01:34.599 --> 02:01:35.900
I see this happening,
1632
02:01:36.440 --> 02:01:38.219
and I see Ellen Big happening,
1633
02:01:38.715 --> 02:01:41.855
and people just kind of ignore it. No one wants to talk about it.
1634
02:01:42.315 --> 02:01:48.050
Well, that I mean, you could say the same thing about the Internet. Right? Like, what's a big ISP in,
1635
02:01:48.530 --> 02:01:56.525
USA? Like, AT and T or Sprint or even Google? Right. Oh, like, there's, you know, there's only, like or was it Comcast?
1636
02:01:56.905 --> 02:01:57.945
There's only, like,
1637
02:01:58.265 --> 02:02:14.325
a handful of ISPs in USA. Right? And every literally everyone's routing their traffic through them. So isn't that a concern? What if they're logging everyone's data? Well, actually, they are. Right? And they're probably doing the NSA choke point surveillance and all kinds of really nasty stuff.
1638
02:02:15.585 --> 02:02:19.445
And some people talk about it, but for the most part, you know,
1639
02:02:19.905 --> 02:02:20.805
people just
1640
02:02:21.430 --> 02:02:23.770
use ClearNet without any privacy
1641
02:02:24.230 --> 02:02:24.730
protection,
1642
02:02:25.510 --> 02:02:28.650
technologies at all. Right? So Oh my god. It's so bad.
1643
02:02:29.514 --> 02:02:53.940
So, I mean, you could say that about a lot of things. Like, well well, what about Coinbase? That's very centralized, and they have everyone's transaction data. Isn't that bad? Well, sure. Yeah. But we all agree Coinbase is bad. Like, everyone is concerned about Coinbase. And some people are more concerned than they should be about Coinbase. I feel like people are more concerned about Coinbase than they should be and less concerned about LNB, Bitrefill, LNstrike, you know, bits, the Bitfinex,
1644
02:02:54.400 --> 02:02:55.780
then they should be. Right?
1645
02:02:56.480 --> 02:03:00.420
But that's that's not necessarily anything native just because of how
1646
02:03:00.965 --> 02:03:04.824
a certain lightning node has a lot of routing capacity. That's just
1647
02:03:05.125 --> 02:03:09.784
because they're a big business and they do lots of transactions and they need lots of liquidity. Right? Like,
1648
02:03:10.830 --> 02:03:13.570
there's nothing necessarily negative about that.
1649
02:03:13.870 --> 02:03:28.610
And it's it kind of I mean, that's how the Internet is also structured. Right? Like, how much traffic is routing through your home Wi Fi router? Well, only your own personal traffic. Right? But the the ISP that you're plugged into, they're routing everybody's traffic. So, like, that's probably
1650
02:03:29.310 --> 02:03:29.550
how
1651
02:03:30.190 --> 02:03:32.690
I mean, that's typically how most peer to peer networks,
1652
02:03:34.030 --> 02:03:35.570
get developed. It's just
1653
02:03:36.775 --> 02:03:38.395
most people, unfortunately,
1654
02:03:38.775 --> 02:03:48.630
don't set up their own routing nodes, whether that be an Internet routing node, a Tor routing node, a Lightning routing node, Bitcoin routing node, they typically trust other people's nodes because
1655
02:03:49.010 --> 02:03:53.670
it's difficult, they don't know how to do it, you have to maintain this thing, if it goes offline,
1656
02:03:54.155 --> 02:03:57.775
you might lose money, etcetera etcetera. Like, it's just
1657
02:03:58.315 --> 02:03:59.535
people will always
1658
02:03:59.995 --> 02:04:05.430
or not always, but 99% of people will optimize for convenience and low cost over
1659
02:04:05.890 --> 02:04:15.535
the privacy concerns that you have. Right? Obviously, we're we're the hardcore Cypherpunk kind of guys. Of course, we run our own nodes or even, like, blacklisting who our nodes can
1660
02:04:15.915 --> 02:04:17.935
route through and and things like this. So,
1661
02:04:18.475 --> 02:04:22.655
I mean, that's just how the world works. Right? It's that peer to peer networks do typically become
1662
02:04:23.110 --> 02:04:26.330
decentralized and not fully distributed like Bitcoin,
1663
02:04:27.350 --> 02:04:28.730
is, which is really cool.
1664
02:04:31.034 --> 02:04:31.755
I'm concerned about,
1665
02:04:33.195 --> 02:04:37.375
lightning might be priced out for regular people running in on their.
1666
02:04:37.994 --> 02:04:40.200
Imagine if it costs $50
1667
02:04:40.660 --> 02:04:43.880
to open a channel, to close a channel, to rebalance a channel.
1668
02:04:44.420 --> 02:04:49.480
It's not gonna be cost effective if you're not if you're not a routing node that actually earned the fees
1669
02:04:50.165 --> 02:04:50.665
to
1670
02:04:51.605 --> 02:04:53.864
get back what you spend on
1671
02:04:54.565 --> 02:04:55.705
managing the liquidity.
1672
02:04:56.165 --> 02:04:58.345
So what you were saying, Matt, with the
1673
02:04:58.960 --> 02:05:00.500
wallet of the of the Satoshi,
1674
02:05:01.280 --> 02:05:01.780
Bluewallets,
1675
02:05:02.400 --> 02:05:04.020
those are probably the
1676
02:05:04.640 --> 02:05:06.180
services we're gonna see
1677
02:05:06.655 --> 02:05:07.955
become the bigger players
1678
02:05:08.335 --> 02:05:09.395
in the near term
1679
02:05:09.775 --> 02:05:16.920
future, at least. And Wallet of Satoshi already has a KYC requirement if you are gonna upper your limits of spending.
1680
02:05:18.019 --> 02:05:19.960
What's the limits at Wall of the Satoshi?
1681
02:05:20.340 --> 02:05:23.000
I'm not sure, but I think it's if it's over,
1682
02:05:23.460 --> 02:05:25.719
$1,000 or something, you have to KYC.
1683
02:05:27.605 --> 02:05:28.265
So I
1684
02:05:29.285 --> 02:05:34.105
so so, Simon, I mean, I the way I look at lightning is, I mean, I don't think,
1685
02:05:34.560 --> 02:05:38.420
I I think we're only gonna we're gonna have the hard course run the routing notes,
1686
02:05:38.880 --> 02:05:45.285
whether that's, you know, a bit refill or if that's like a a sovereign routing node through Tor only.
1687
02:05:45.825 --> 02:05:49.445
We're gonna have the hard course run it. I think as long as we keep the accessibility
1688
02:05:49.825 --> 02:05:50.885
under, like
1689
02:05:51.380 --> 02:05:55.720
like, under wiz level, like, not wiz like, you shouldn't be wiz. You shouldn't be, like,
1690
02:05:56.100 --> 02:05:57.880
needing to run your home to ISP.
1691
02:05:59.135 --> 02:06:08.594
But, like, if we can Umbrell is a good example. Right? Like, if you have a Raspberry Pi with Umbrell, you can do it. Like an enthusiast. Like, we have an enthusiast who's willing to spend a little bit of money.
1692
02:06:09.650 --> 02:06:14.630
Like, they they should be able to run a routing node through Tor only. And and and maybe
1693
02:06:15.490 --> 02:06:26.785
those Tor only routing like, the network becomes bifurcated a little bit. Right? Like, if if you transact in the in the Sovereign Lightning Network, like, your fees will be a little bit higher than if you go,
1694
02:06:28.110 --> 02:06:37.945
through something like Cox Exchange or whatever. Right? Well, every I mean, if you look at how other apps work, like, again, the Internet is always a great comparison to look at.
1695
02:06:38.965 --> 02:06:40.105
Probably newbies
1696
02:06:40.405 --> 02:06:43.625
who get started on the Internet start out with an iPhone.
1697
02:06:44.030 --> 02:06:48.130
Right? It's a fully trusted setup to a centralized ISP,
1698
02:06:48.830 --> 02:06:50.530
telecom mobile carrier.
1699
02:06:51.204 --> 02:07:00.105
They use fully centralized apps like Facebook. All of their data is in the cloud. They don't use any encryption or end to end privacy. Nothing. Right?
1700
02:07:01.470 --> 02:07:09.170
Then maybe, like, one level about that, above that is, someone has a computer, like an actual desktop or a laptop computer,
1701
02:07:10.855 --> 02:07:11.515
you know,
1702
02:07:12.055 --> 02:07:15.835
then they might have a home ISP with a home Wi Fi router.
1703
02:07:16.135 --> 02:07:20.340
Then maybe one level up from that is they might use a VPN or they might have,
1704
02:07:21.040 --> 02:07:21.780
you know,
1705
02:07:22.400 --> 02:07:22.900
some
1706
02:07:23.520 --> 02:07:25.139
minimal privacy software.
1707
02:07:26.405 --> 02:07:30.265
You know, and you keep going up the ladder all these rings until
1708
02:07:31.205 --> 02:07:34.105
someone operates their own full node, which in the Internet
1709
02:07:34.640 --> 02:07:39.540
world, we call that an ISP. If you run a an a full full routing node on the Internet,
1710
02:07:40.320 --> 02:07:40.820
then
1711
02:07:41.495 --> 02:07:49.275
you can black you can pick who you wanna peer with. You can blacklist what traffic goes where and everything. And so if you look at lightning network,
1712
02:07:49.600 --> 02:08:01.345
it's probably gonna be a very similar model. Newbies start out by installing an app on their app iPhone that's fully custodial, fully trusted, and that's fine for for getting them for seducing them into
1713
02:08:01.805 --> 02:08:04.545
starting on lightning. And then once they have enough
1714
02:08:04.989 --> 02:08:05.489
sats,
1715
02:08:06.270 --> 02:08:08.449
or they, you know, they get goxed or,
1716
02:08:08.910 --> 02:08:18.275
they don't wanna do they wanna get taxed or whatever, for whatever reason, they get pushed up the up the ladder, and they they run their own, you know, Raspberry Pi,
1717
02:08:18.815 --> 02:08:20.034
lightning routing node.
1718
02:08:20.574 --> 02:08:27.429
And, you know, they maybe have more and more channel capacity as you go up the ladder. And then the top of the ladder is, like,
1719
02:08:27.830 --> 02:08:28.890
you know, lnbig
1720
02:08:29.255 --> 02:08:34.315
kind of people or Bitrefill kind of people where you're this huge business that does tons of transactions.
1721
02:08:35.495 --> 02:08:45.680
You know, there's it's not again, it's you have to have the right tool for the job. There is no one size fits all for Bitcoin or Lightning or the Internet or or anything in life. Right?
1722
02:08:47.955 --> 02:08:48.935
No. Yeah. 100%.
1723
02:08:53.700 --> 02:08:54.680
No. Yeah. I mean,
1724
02:08:56.100 --> 02:08:58.520
I I think I think as humans, we tend
1725
02:08:59.540 --> 02:09:02.920
to try and distill it down a little bit too much,
1726
02:09:03.525 --> 02:09:05.385
But, of course, there's gonna be
1727
02:09:07.125 --> 02:09:12.340
different levels to this shit. There's always there's always there's always different levels to this shit.
1728
02:09:14.340 --> 02:09:17.159
We had a previous question from a freak
1729
02:09:17.699 --> 02:09:18.199
asking
1730
02:09:18.500 --> 02:09:19.000
if
1731
02:09:19.755 --> 02:09:28.895
asking you specifically, Wizz, do you think it should be a concern for the average user if they're running BISK on their regular computer? They have a MacBook Pro or something.
1732
02:09:29.620 --> 02:09:32.040
They're running it on their regular computer. Should they be concerned?
1733
02:09:33.140 --> 02:09:36.920
No. Because all BISC traffic is routed through Tor, and,
1734
02:09:40.255 --> 02:09:40.995
I mean,
1735
02:09:41.375 --> 02:09:46.820
it's that's that's exactly the use case it's designed for is to run disk on computer. In fact,
1736
02:09:47.460 --> 02:09:55.699
this doesn't really support running on anything other than a computer right now. So that's literally Well, I mean, I I I think what the freak is saying is, like, if it compared to
1737
02:09:56.435 --> 02:10:04.855
so, I mean, what I would add there is is compared to running on a dedicated machine so, like, you have, like, a dedicated Linux machine or even a dedicated,
1738
02:10:05.420 --> 02:10:06.720
you know, Apple machine
1739
02:10:09.020 --> 02:10:14.640
versus your your regular everyday computer is obviously, your regular everyday computer
1740
02:10:15.005 --> 02:10:17.264
has a bigger attack surface. So if if
1741
02:10:17.565 --> 02:10:24.385
if you're gonna keep large amounts yeah. If you're gonna keep large amounts on bisque, like, the bet like, the larger the amount,
1742
02:10:24.730 --> 02:10:35.385
the the more important it is that you have a dedicated Sorry. I thought you meant, privacy concerns. If it's security concerns, then, of course, anything with a hot wallet in it that has a significant amount of funds should be
1743
02:10:36.324 --> 02:10:43.465
isolated in its own container or virtual machine or dedicated bare metal machine is always a better security setup than,
1744
02:10:43.810 --> 02:10:52.390
you know, this you know, running your hot wallet on your same computer that you look at porn at or something and probably install all these random apps. Right? So,
1745
02:10:53.445 --> 02:10:54.005
you know, I I
1746
02:10:54.965 --> 02:11:00.905
Well, if if you're like, if if Marty hears about this, like, porn you should never list look at porn, so
1747
02:11:01.480 --> 02:11:01.980
that's
1748
02:11:02.880 --> 02:11:03.380
irrelevant.
1749
02:11:04.280 --> 02:11:06.520
I mean, of course, you know, DISC is,
1750
02:11:08.040 --> 02:11:11.020
it's a hot wallet. Like any hot wallet Porn agnostic.
1751
02:11:12.345 --> 02:11:12.845
Yes.
1752
02:11:13.305 --> 02:11:16.685
I mean, it's just any kind of malicious apps that you might,
1753
02:11:17.625 --> 02:11:20.830
be tricked into installing or might hack your computer
1754
02:11:21.210 --> 02:11:21.710
somehow,
1755
02:11:22.010 --> 02:11:28.910
you know, through some Oday exploit. You just remove all of that attack vector if you only have disk running in its own,
1756
02:11:29.685 --> 02:11:33.785
either virtual environment or or bare metal com computer environment?
1757
02:11:34.645 --> 02:11:37.385
Yeah. I mean, a 100%. Yeah. So so so
1758
02:11:38.350 --> 02:11:43.330
if you use a dedicated machine, you're always you're always better off security wise, guys, no matter what.
1759
02:11:45.150 --> 02:11:46.450
That that that's just
1760
02:11:47.594 --> 02:11:51.295
it it is physics. It's just basic it's basic security hygiene.
1761
02:11:52.715 --> 02:11:58.170
So so, Wiz, you know, so right now we have on the screen, we have this is trading at $45,000.
1762
02:11:59.110 --> 02:12:00.970
Evil Empire is trading at 49,300.
1763
02:12:02.305 --> 02:12:04.645
Bisk was the 1st to trade above 50k.
1764
02:12:05.745 --> 02:12:09.045
It goes back and forth. You know, liquidity isn't that high
1765
02:12:09.990 --> 02:12:14.410
with this. I mean, very it's the the to be frank, in the United States
1766
02:12:14.790 --> 02:12:17.530
with the fiat, you know, liquidity is very low.
1767
02:12:20.614 --> 02:12:24.795
What what what do we do to solve this? Like like, what what is the
1768
02:12:25.335 --> 02:12:29.570
what is there a plan? Is there a plan in place, like, that people are thinking about here?
1769
02:12:30.510 --> 02:12:35.445
You mean to improve the liquidity on the Bisk peer to peer exchange network?
1770
02:12:35.985 --> 02:12:45.290
You know, Bisk is one of the unspoken things about Bisk, which we're about to speak about because that's the whole point of fucking Citadel dispatch. We speak about the unspoken things,
1771
02:12:46.390 --> 02:12:46.890
is
1772
02:12:47.750 --> 02:12:50.490
is that the largest market is Monero Bitcoin.
1773
02:12:52.585 --> 02:12:56.605
In the volume, but the number of trades is by far fiat to Bitcoin.
1774
02:12:57.385 --> 02:13:05.250
Right. It's but So, basically, Monero Bank, you listed But you're combining you're combining Fiats. Right? You're doing Bitcoin, Euro.
1775
02:13:06.465 --> 02:13:08.005
No. But the number of trades,
1776
02:13:08.785 --> 02:13:16.730
the number of USD to Bitcoin trades on Bisk is greater than the number of Monero trades. Right? It's just volume is dwarfed like a motherfucker.
1777
02:13:17.270 --> 02:13:22.250
Right. Because so here's what happened. The Monero got delisted from a bunch of centralized
1778
02:13:22.695 --> 02:13:31.355
exchanges because, you know, it protects people's privacy, and centralized exchanges are regulated by governments that don't like that. For example, in Japan,
1779
02:13:31.889 --> 02:13:36.949
the Japanese government says Monero is a money laundering tool. So, oh, it's evil. So
1780
02:13:37.250 --> 02:13:48.855
all that Monero trading volume goes to BISK, and there's some whales on there who do, you know, huge Monero trading volume on Bisk for its censorship resistance and privacy features, which is great because
1781
02:13:49.475 --> 02:13:53.620
that trading fee revenue goes to the Bisk DAO, which basically funds
1782
02:13:54.239 --> 02:14:00.655
the development of the Bisk project so that it can support the Bitcoin to fiat trades, which is the real use case. So it's
1783
02:14:01.034 --> 02:14:08.014
it's it's cool that the Monero community and the Bitcoin community have that overlap where they both want that privacy and censorship resistance,
1784
02:14:08.530 --> 02:14:14.870
And it's cool that the Monero whales are willing to pay the Bisk project to do that so that the Bisk project can,
1785
02:14:15.410 --> 02:14:19.065
you know, actually have a a good Bitcoin to fiat training
1786
02:14:19.605 --> 02:14:20.105
platform.
1787
02:14:21.204 --> 02:14:22.664
Yeah. I mean, so, what
1788
02:14:23.925 --> 02:14:29.010
what would you basically, the the reason we don't have heavy volumes in USD,
1789
02:14:29.470 --> 02:14:34.130
and even, like, euros, like, double the volume, but still nothing, to be honest,
1790
02:14:34.895 --> 02:14:35.555
is because
1791
02:14:36.095 --> 02:14:41.315
the regulated exchanges haven't been really closed off fully yet. Like, I think
1792
02:14:41.695 --> 02:14:44.900
we see a we if we see,
1793
02:14:46.400 --> 02:14:48.260
an exit ramp ban,
1794
02:14:48.640 --> 02:14:55.375
we we see, like, countries start trying to block the exits from people leaving their shitty money to the good money,
1795
02:14:55.755 --> 02:14:56.975
then all of a sudden,
1796
02:14:59.060 --> 02:15:07.380
Bisk needs to be ready and willing. Like, Bisk needs to be there ready to go. And at that point, like, all of a sudden, Bisk quickly becomes
1797
02:15:07.835 --> 02:15:11.695
like, to me, Bisk is already the most important market, which is crazy to say
1798
02:15:12.155 --> 02:15:21.980
when something like BitMex is doing 1,000,000,000 of dollars worth of volume a day. Something like Coinbase is doing 1,000,000,000 of dollars worth of volume, but way less 1,000,000,000 than BitMEX
1799
02:15:22.360 --> 02:15:24.300
because BitMEX is derivative exchange.
1800
02:15:25.160 --> 02:15:28.485
And then, like, Bisk is doing, like, $80,000,
1801
02:15:30.225 --> 02:15:31.525
or the volume a day.
1802
02:15:32.305 --> 02:15:34.885
But Bisk is, to me, is still the most important.
1803
02:15:35.680 --> 02:15:48.015
And and that that's because when those when those restrictions end up happening, that's where we're most vulnerable. We're most vulnerable at that that intersection. And and when those restrictions happen, that's when Bisk steps up to the fucking plate. Right?
1804
02:15:48.555 --> 02:15:56.470
Well, I totally agree that Bisk is, like, the most one of the most important Bitcoin projects, and it is, like, critical infrastructure.
1805
02:15:57.410 --> 02:16:00.795
In in a shit hits the fan situation where governments ban Bitcoin,
1806
02:16:01.255 --> 02:16:09.630
Bisk users would not be affected because you could still do peer to peer trading even cash at a, you know, Starbucks kind of thing. So,
1807
02:16:10.410 --> 02:16:12.830
when you talk about the liquidity
1808
02:16:14.410 --> 02:16:15.310
and these offers,
1809
02:16:16.955 --> 02:16:21.615
So first of all, if I trade with someone on Bisk
1810
02:16:22.235 --> 02:16:23.135
a few times,
1811
02:16:23.630 --> 02:16:33.410
I'm just gonna message them directly and say, hey. Why don't we just trade directly outside of DISC? Because you kinda trust each other at a at a after a certain point, you build up reputation or whatever.
1812
02:16:35.055 --> 02:16:37.155
And so a lot of the trading volume
1813
02:16:37.535 --> 02:16:38.335
that was,
1814
02:16:39.215 --> 02:16:40.995
you know, came from BISC
1815
02:16:41.300 --> 02:16:46.840
is not going to be reflected in the public trade statistics data. Right? Because
1816
02:16:47.619 --> 02:17:09.325
that's just due to the the natural, like, decentralized nature of the exchange. It's it's kinda like a bulletin board. Right? It's kinda like It's humans. It's humans. Right? Like, you don't wanna pay the fee. Right? Like, we see that with Airbnb. Like, you see it in centralized projects. Right? Like, where like, Airbnb, like, if you already have if I rent a place from someone, like, why would I pay Airbnb their cut if I can just go out on the outside?
1817
02:17:10.104 --> 02:17:13.085
Right. And and that's great. Like, if if you meet
1818
02:17:13.460 --> 02:17:15.479
your, you know, a few few,
1819
02:17:16.020 --> 02:17:19.640
reputable traders from Bisk and you trade directly with them, great. Like,
1820
02:17:20.020 --> 02:17:28.455
now that's even better than that's truly peer to peer at that point. Right? You just happen to, like, meet them on BISK. So and I actually made a lot of friends,
1821
02:17:28.835 --> 02:17:31.895
who I met on BISK from trading with them and and everything. So,
1822
02:17:32.739 --> 02:17:49.064
that that's a cool thing about it being a exchange network or a community of of Bitcoiners, right, that you would not have on any other exchange at all. You would never have, like, you would never chat with your trading partner on a centralized exchange rate. So
1823
02:17:49.960 --> 02:17:53.880
even though the trade statistics might be a smaller number and it might look,
1824
02:17:54.200 --> 02:17:54.700
smaller,
1825
02:17:55.319 --> 02:17:58.060
the community around this is the real
1826
02:17:58.835 --> 02:18:00.055
power. It's the real strength.
1827
02:18:01.075 --> 02:18:04.775
Right, you're just seeing the tip of the iceberg on the public trade statistics data.
1828
02:18:08.200 --> 02:18:10.540
Yeah. I mean I mean, it's still being dwarfed though.
1829
02:18:11.560 --> 02:18:16.275
Like, I agree I agree with you, but it's it's Because people optimize for,
1830
02:18:17.075 --> 02:18:21.415
you know, speed and user experience, and they know if they wire their money to,
1831
02:18:22.101 --> 02:18:28.040
BitFlyer in Japan, I can have the money in my account a few minutes later or or my bitcoins or whatever. So
1832
02:18:28.420 --> 02:18:29.220
this is a,
1833
02:18:30.235 --> 02:18:31.695
you know, it's like how many people
1834
02:18:32.395 --> 02:18:33.195
run their own,
1835
02:18:33.675 --> 02:18:37.915
ISP or something. Like, very few people. But if tomorrow the government says,
1836
02:18:39.090 --> 02:18:54.065
you know, ISPs can't have customers anymore, well, there's gonna be a shitload of people starting to throw on ISPs. Right? And so that's kinda what BISK is. It's a it's a peer to peer trading network. It's there for the hardcore people, but if shit hits the fan, everyone is now hardcore
1837
02:18:54.445 --> 02:18:57.905
user because they have to It's the release valve. It's the fire escape.
1838
02:18:58.830 --> 02:19:01.810
Yeah. It's it's an emergency backup system. Right?
1839
02:19:02.830 --> 02:19:04.370
And then keeps everyone honest.
1840
02:19:04.990 --> 02:19:10.995
Or if you simply wanna stack sats without the government knowing about it, maybe you're willing to to,
1841
02:19:11.695 --> 02:19:19.060
trade with a little bit clumpier user experience, a little bit slower trade process, a little bit higher fees to trade on bisque
1842
02:19:19.680 --> 02:19:23.859
if you if you value your privacy. And that's like as you said, the Monero community
1843
02:19:24.160 --> 02:19:25.700
is huge on bisque because,
1844
02:19:26.056 --> 02:19:29.516
obviously, they really care about privacy if they're trading Monero. Right?
1845
02:19:29.895 --> 02:19:33.115
And they're even they're, like, working on a project to try and
1846
02:19:33.460 --> 02:19:39.640
they realize how important it is, and they they they wanna they wanna remove the the reliance on risk for it.
1847
02:19:40.875 --> 02:19:55.109
I mean, I don't know if they'll ever you know, they they're trying to create their own DEX, you know, decentralized exchange because they understand the importance of it. Out of out of anyone, the pry the the so called privacy coins understand it the most because they're getting hit by the regular the regulators.
1848
02:19:55.895 --> 02:20:08.280
Well, my understanding is that until very recently, it wasn't possible to do an atomic swap between Bitcoin and, Monero, but now it is. So now they can It isn't fully yet, but,
1849
02:20:09.540 --> 02:20:10.040
Fluffy,
1850
02:20:10.420 --> 02:20:14.855
like, his shitcoin project is trying to make it compatible with Lightning.
1851
02:20:15.395 --> 02:20:22.190
So, like, he has his shitcoin, Taari, which is, like, the shitcoin layer of of Monero, and then that's supposed
1852
02:20:23.051 --> 02:20:26.270
to atomic swap with lightning. But, anyway, that's besides the point.
1853
02:20:26.891 --> 02:20:27.790
I I think,
1854
02:20:30.024 --> 02:20:33.885
Fiat interacting with Fiat is always difficult, so, of course,
1855
02:20:34.665 --> 02:20:40.000
it is easier to integrate Altcoins into Bisq. Like, trading trading trust minimized
1856
02:20:40.380 --> 02:20:43.520
with Altcoins in Bisq, obviously, way easier.
1857
02:20:43.900 --> 02:20:45.680
You don't have to deal with fiat institutions.
1858
02:20:46.315 --> 02:20:46.976
Yeah. But
1859
02:20:48.715 --> 02:20:54.175
it's not adding directly with fiat. It's gonna be way more difficult. I really do like that Bisk just added the cash option. Right?
1860
02:20:54.500 --> 02:21:03.375
But, the majority of volume on Bisk on the fiat side is is through traditional bank transfers. Right? So you have to deal with that counterparty risk on the traditional finance side.
1861
02:21:04.015 --> 02:21:07.475
Yeah. I I was probably one of the most aggressive people pushing,
1862
02:21:07.855 --> 02:21:10.035
Bisk to delist all these shit coins.
1863
02:21:10.575 --> 02:21:11.075
But
1864
02:21:11.780 --> 02:21:17.240
there's it's basically only Monero and Bitcoin to Fiat. And, obviously, the the main use case
1865
02:21:17.620 --> 02:21:21.080
of Bisk is to trade real Fiat money, to Bitcoin.
1866
02:21:22.205 --> 02:21:24.625
But but, yeah, like, all these payment methods
1867
02:21:25.325 --> 02:21:25.825
typically,
1868
02:21:26.925 --> 02:21:29.745
it's it's like the same as any network effect. Right?
1869
02:21:30.240 --> 02:21:31.620
In every country,
1870
02:21:32.080 --> 02:21:34.979
they have, like, the go to payment method. Right? So, like, in Japan,
1871
02:21:35.359 --> 02:21:39.300
it's the, Japanese bank transfer. Everybody who has a Japanese bank account
1872
02:21:39.625 --> 02:21:40.444
can instantly
1873
02:21:40.745 --> 02:21:46.125
and basically for free wire money to any other Japanese bank account. Right? And in the USA, you have, like, Zelle
1874
02:21:46.641 --> 02:21:53.141
or, if you're really hardcore, you use postal money order, which is, by the way, I think the coolest payment method on this. And,
1875
02:21:54.165 --> 02:21:56.005
you know, there's just a number of,
1876
02:21:57.045 --> 02:22:13.570
like, there's, like, one of the things that That was really funny because the the the biggest government attack we ever had on BISK in America was the the postal order attack with because Trump was attacking the postal system unrelated to Bitcoin. He he was doing it because of the voting.
1877
02:22:14.395 --> 02:22:17.135
That actually so I was I was, like, a bisque mediator.
1878
02:22:17.595 --> 02:22:18.095
And,
1879
02:22:19.035 --> 02:22:22.655
and, like, all of a sudden, I got all these disputes for, like, postal money order trades.
1880
02:22:23.250 --> 02:22:26.789
And they're all, like, fucking Trump, and they're, like, so pissed because,
1881
02:22:27.170 --> 02:22:46.030
like, their their shit just got lost in the mail or is delayed. And, like, I would even look up on the post office tracking because they're, like, you know, proving it to me that they sent it. And the tracking actually said, like, package lost. I was like, what the fuck? Like, they're so incompetent. They have, like, a status code for that. And I'm like, okay. I guess.
1882
02:22:46.864 --> 02:23:01.939
They're responsibly incompetent. Right? Like, they they they they fucking lose the package, but at least they they let you know promptly that they lost it. Yeah. It's a response to the so I'm like, okay. I guess I'm the mediator. I guess, like, yeah. It's the post office fault. Like, it's not your fault. I I I see that. So,
1883
02:23:02.399 --> 02:23:11.955
yeah. I mean, fortunately, that was just around the voting time or whatever voting scam they were trying to do. But, yeah. Postal money order is, like, the coolest hack of the
1884
02:23:12.410 --> 02:23:14.670
legacy fiat system. Right? Because
1885
02:23:15.210 --> 02:23:16.270
all the government,
1886
02:23:16.970 --> 02:23:18.510
mass surveillance and,
1887
02:23:19.210 --> 02:23:23.495
you know, where they seize the bank accounts and everything, that's like a relatively new
1888
02:23:24.274 --> 02:23:24.774
idea.
1889
02:23:25.314 --> 02:23:37.605
And for, you know, a 100 years before that, the way people sent money to each other was through the post office. And in Japan, that's, like actually, the Japanese post office is, like, the biggest bank in the world or something crazy Because,
1890
02:23:38.545 --> 02:23:42.245
and and even like, like other big banks like American Express, obviously,
1891
02:23:42.865 --> 02:23:52.159
Express. They used to be like federal they used to be like a delivery company in a railroad and all these things, and then they just focused on the the financial services. Right? So all of these
1892
02:23:53.045 --> 02:24:02.730
legacy really old school payment things are like the post office for sending money, and they never got regulated by the government. So you can go to a post office
1893
02:24:03.750 --> 02:24:07.450
with cash, buy a postal money order with no KYC,
1894
02:24:08.395 --> 02:24:09.535
send it to the guy's
1895
02:24:10.235 --> 02:24:18.979
PO box, right, and he he's at the post office and he brings it to the counter and he cashes it and he gets cash. Like, that is the coolest,
1896
02:24:19.680 --> 02:24:29.165
way to send money in in USA. Right? Is in terms of security, privacy, and, censorship resistance. And more so for BISK, the the post office website
1897
02:24:29.784 --> 02:24:35.324
gives you the ability to, like, type in all the serial numbers of the money order and stuff, and you can verify
1898
02:24:35.790 --> 02:24:46.984
as a neutral third party bisque mediator if the money order was cashed, what post off it was. But, like, you can Well, this is so this is the funniest part about Bitcoin, right, is that, like, when I got into Bitcoin,
1899
02:24:48.005 --> 02:24:52.880
like, it was the first time I ever used Western Union. Like, I went into, like, a CVS,
1900
02:24:53.340 --> 02:25:03.154
and I, like, had to, like, use the orange phone and, like, pick up the orange phone, like, call some random ass number, and then, like, wait a couple days for, like, the thing to process. I paid, like, huge fees.
1901
02:25:03.854 --> 02:25:07.795
And and and and it's the same situation, you know, we,
1902
02:25:08.630 --> 02:25:22.035
you know, maybe the the situation has been streamlined so called streamlined in the regulated KYC department, and then you have to deal with all the ID verification and whatnot. But, like, when when when you do, like, a proper bisque trade
1903
02:25:22.495 --> 02:25:22.995
or
1904
02:25:23.855 --> 02:25:29.399
or, you know, in the past when you're like, I does Biscuit have Western Union as an option as a payment option?
1905
02:25:30.100 --> 02:25:33.905
Yeah. But I think it's not popular because of the reasons you just,
1906
02:25:34.545 --> 02:25:40.726
explained. It's like It, like, it teaches you it, like, it, like, teaches you why fiat sucks,
1907
02:25:41.470 --> 02:25:45.890
Like, why Bitcoin exists. Like, to access Bitcoin to get to Bitcoin,
1908
02:25:46.590 --> 02:25:50.210
you have to go through, like, a full stack process of learning why
1909
02:25:50.846 --> 02:26:10.266
the current system sucks to access the Bitcoin in the first place. It's like the biggest friction to accessing it is the thing you're attempting to replace. So as you hit that friction, instead of turning you off, which is usually what friction does, it's like, oh, I don't wanna use this app. It, like, it, like, teaches you what or, like, why am I doing what I'm doing.
1910
02:26:13.720 --> 02:26:18.220
Well, yeah, I think Western Union has, like, 10% fees or something crazy.
1911
02:26:19.399 --> 02:26:21.260
It's very it's, like, very
1912
02:26:22.585 --> 02:26:26.765
difficult to do the paperwork. It's full KYC on both sides. It's just,
1913
02:26:27.465 --> 02:26:29.645
totally crushed by postal money orders,
1914
02:26:30.665 --> 02:26:35.410
despite them being a little bit slower because you actually have to send the piece of paper through the mail.
1915
02:26:36.830 --> 02:26:40.530
A postal money order is only, like, a couple dollars. Right? And I think you can do, like, $1,000
1916
02:26:41.976 --> 02:26:46.235
per money order. So you can just, you know, buy an infinite amount of anonymous
1917
02:26:46.615 --> 02:27:01.155
post of money orders with cash and then send them in the mail and get Bitcoin. Right. Now you can wear a mask while you do it and gloves. Yeah. You can wear 2 masks, and then, like, you're extra responsible. That's what they want you to do. Hey, Simon. How's it going over there? Are you still with us?
1918
02:27:04.175 --> 02:27:04.675
Yeah.
1919
02:27:08.290 --> 02:27:14.790
We we missed you. They call him this is why they call him soft Simon because he's so shy and soft spoken. Yeah. I'll let you do both.
1920
02:27:15.345 --> 02:27:18.005
He's not hard, Simon. He's a peer talk.
1921
02:27:18.545 --> 02:27:20.085
Simon wants to talk about the mempool.
1922
02:27:20.704 --> 02:27:29.510
Yeah. What do you wanna talk about, Simon? What what have we missed? What have we missed? We're about 2 and a half hours in. I appreciate you guys' time. What what have we missed? What should we discuss?
1923
02:27:29.891 --> 02:27:32.150
I saw our questions in the comment section
1924
02:27:32.715 --> 02:27:36.255
Concerning the member in the beginning with their own call now.
1925
02:27:39.354 --> 02:27:41.295
Do you do you not remember the questions?
1926
02:27:41.721 --> 02:27:51.615
Do you want them to re ask them? Freaks, hit us with new questions on the mempool. Okay. We should take the mempool questions while we're at it. Do you remember any of them?
1927
02:27:54.715 --> 02:27:55.215
When
1928
02:27:55.595 --> 02:27:57.936
can we we want that to go right?
1929
02:27:58.490 --> 02:28:04.190
Oh, yeah. So I that's a good question, and I've I've talked about this on the past in the podcast, and I'm curious on your opinion, Simon.
1930
02:28:05.425 --> 02:28:08.404
So so so so people disagree with me. I think,
1931
02:28:10.145 --> 02:28:11.604
we're fucked as Bitcoiners,
1932
02:28:12.520 --> 02:28:15.980
Yeah. If you can easily confirm 1 sapro byte in 5 years.
1933
02:28:17.240 --> 02:28:19.660
Do you disagree with me or do you not?
1934
02:28:22.025 --> 02:28:25.965
There will be a much high higher minimum fee.
1935
02:28:26.345 --> 02:28:34.270
I think we're already seeing it here. If you post the one set, it's just gonna get rejected from the nearest node. It's not gonna get propagated even.
1936
02:28:34.811 --> 02:28:35.311
So
1937
02:28:36.235 --> 02:28:39.375
using the new feature we have on mempool space, you can see which,
1938
02:28:39.835 --> 02:28:44.735
minimum transaction fee that's are probably gonna get rejected from majority of networks. So
1939
02:28:45.420 --> 02:28:48.239
that bar is gonna get higher and higher. I think
1940
02:28:49.260 --> 02:28:53.119
we have a huge backlog, and then it's gonna be a fight to find
1941
02:28:54.436 --> 02:28:58.775
end of market to be the fee. Do you think that's a good thing or a bad thing?
1942
02:28:59.875 --> 02:29:03.255
Yeah. It's a it's a good thing, I guess. It's all natural. So
1943
02:29:03.950 --> 02:29:06.689
there's a lot of demand for transaction, and there's a limited
1944
02:29:07.790 --> 02:29:09.410
amount of man pool space,
1945
02:29:10.510 --> 02:29:15.075
like the 300 megabyte, default. So it's gonna kick kick out all the transactions
1946
02:29:15.936 --> 02:29:19.795
that have the lowest fee when the trans when the mempool is full.
1947
02:29:20.335 --> 02:29:20.835
So
1948
02:29:22.660 --> 02:29:31.400
right now, let's see. Yeah. It's kicking out everything below 3 sets per byte right now because the mempool is quite full. But you can check on mempool. That space.
1949
02:29:31.825 --> 02:29:34.485
Transaction fees are not that high. It's just $3
1950
02:29:35.265 --> 02:29:38.145
for a segment transaction to get into the next block. But,
1951
02:29:39.025 --> 02:29:41.045
there's a long there's a big backlog
1952
02:29:41.700 --> 02:29:42.740
on queue, which makes,
1953
02:29:44.180 --> 02:29:45.640
that's happened with
1954
02:29:46.420 --> 02:29:48.920
the purging of, low fee transaction.
1955
02:29:49.436 --> 02:29:54.415
So, I mean, would you agree, Simon, that, like, if if in 5 years, you can just, like, easily,
1956
02:29:55.835 --> 02:29:59.221
confirm a one separate byte transaction like Bitcoin has
1957
02:29:59.601 --> 02:30:01.460
issues? Like, we're that we should be worried?
1958
02:30:03.120 --> 02:30:12.855
Worried about what? Like, should we be worried about the security guarantees of the Bitcoin network if you can easily, in 5 years, confirm a 1 separate byte transaction?
1959
02:30:14.050 --> 02:30:16.870
I don't have any doubts when it comes to the security
1960
02:30:17.250 --> 02:30:19.030
securing the Bitcoin blockchain
1961
02:30:19.490 --> 02:30:22.070
because the fees are because the blocks
1962
02:30:22.705 --> 02:30:25.765
people hasn't haven't realized yet how scarce
1963
02:30:26.465 --> 02:30:26.965
the
1964
02:30:27.345 --> 02:30:29.205
space is. It's like the 21
1965
02:30:29.710 --> 02:30:30.210
1000000
1966
02:30:31.310 --> 02:30:32.869
coin limit. Right? It's the
1967
02:30:33.310 --> 02:30:36.850
So you agree you're agreeing with me. Right? Like, you're saying, like,
1968
02:30:37.675 --> 02:30:40.415
the SoftSimon is saying right now that in 5 years,
1969
02:30:41.035 --> 02:30:45.215
the the chance that a one sapper bite is gonna get confirmed is fucking blasphemous.
1970
02:30:45.710 --> 02:30:50.130
Right? Like, there's no, like, there's no chance that that happens. It's probably not gonna happen.
1971
02:30:51.070 --> 02:31:02.480
We saw the mempool cleared when we have a had, like, a deep long bear markets. But I think with the next adoption waves, when they're, like, 10 x more users, 20 x more users, 100 x more users in maybe 8 years,
1972
02:31:03.280 --> 02:31:07.461
There gonna be so much demand for using the most scarcest resource
1973
02:31:08.240 --> 02:31:10.181
on the planet, which is the block space.
1974
02:31:11.255 --> 02:31:11.755
And,
1975
02:31:12.534 --> 02:31:16.555
so that, you know, there's gonna be someone trying to
1976
02:31:17.015 --> 02:31:19.800
get in always. So once that, you can
1977
02:31:20.340 --> 02:31:22.600
I think you it's it's gonna be a memory?
1978
02:31:24.899 --> 02:31:27.159
That was, that was one thing I tweeted
1979
02:31:27.655 --> 02:31:28.955
a while back. I said,
1980
02:31:29.815 --> 02:31:32.075
why don't more Bitcoiners understand
1981
02:31:32.455 --> 02:31:32.955
why
1982
02:31:33.575 --> 02:31:39.430
Bitcoin fees are gonna become so expensive? It's the same concept of digital scarcity. Everyone knows that
1983
02:31:39.890 --> 02:31:45.910
the price of Bitcoin goes up because the number of BTC is scarce capped at 21,000,000,000.
1984
02:31:46.450 --> 02:31:46.950
Well,
1985
02:31:47.595 --> 02:31:54.255
the same exact concept of digital scarcity applies to space in the bit Bitcoin's blockchain itself.
1986
02:31:54.761 --> 02:32:04.775
Every block only has a finite amount of space in it, and so number is gonna go up for that space as well. And this is why we started the mempool space project,
1987
02:32:05.795 --> 02:32:06.295
because
1988
02:32:06.675 --> 02:32:08.135
it's going to track that,
1989
02:32:08.915 --> 02:32:19.400
market for the price of mempool space and bit and blockchain space. Right? It it's it's the same concept. If you believe that the price of Bitcoin is gonna go up, then you must also accept
1990
02:32:20.005 --> 02:32:22.346
the price of Bitcoin transaction is going up.
1991
02:32:23.285 --> 02:32:25.226
But one might argue that,
1992
02:32:27.210 --> 02:32:35.550
you know, one sat is going like, I believe in sat send parity, for instance. Right? So, like, right now, you can get 2,000 sats per dollar.
1993
02:32:37.085 --> 02:32:38.785
So you can get you can get,
1994
02:32:40.365 --> 02:32:43.505
what is that, 20 sats per percent.
1995
02:32:46.230 --> 02:32:50.490
That's going to obviously go down. Right? So so so maybe,
1996
02:32:51.565 --> 02:33:10.170
I mean, so so maybe maybe the sat goes up even though it's 1 separate byte, like, that value like, the that purchasing power is gonna go up. Right? So could we could potentially have, like, a little bit of a gap period, but long term, you're still fucked. Right? Like, long term, like, we're gonna see SATs rates go up.
1997
02:33:11.485 --> 02:33:15.426
Well, the price of the transaction fees of Bitcoin transactions
1998
02:33:16.125 --> 02:33:16.625
doesn't
1999
02:33:17.085 --> 02:33:17.585
really
2000
02:33:18.900 --> 02:33:23.400
care about the fiat price of Bitcoin. Right? It's just how many cents per byte.
2001
02:33:25.176 --> 02:33:29.575
Right. Yeah. That that's the thing people miss. Right? And that's why we always hear
2002
02:33:30.216 --> 02:33:39.570
I mean, we we hear complaint complaints about fees both when the price goes up, but also because the price goes up, there's more transactions. Right? But but it's also because
2003
02:33:40.030 --> 02:33:43.011
the purchasing power of a sat goes up at the same time.
2004
02:33:44.385 --> 02:33:52.645
So so someone might argue that they're so bullish that 1 sapper byte is gonna still confirm because the purchasing power of 1 sapper byte is just so massive.
2005
02:33:54.101 --> 02:34:00.120
Is is that, like, is that a ridiculous concept? Like, that's a Catan concept. Like, that's what Catan is, our boy Catan.
2006
02:34:00.535 --> 02:34:04.395
Our 1 separate byte maximalist over there that's that's running a a mempool
2007
02:34:04.855 --> 02:34:08.635
that that'll handle all of your 1 separate byte transactions up to a gig.
2008
02:34:10.120 --> 02:34:20.654
He, he believes that that the one set is just gonna increase in purchasing power to the point where you'll still be able to confirm it, you know, once every couple years. That's I think it's about,
2009
02:34:21.055 --> 02:34:27.030
supply and demand thing. And when people have their Bitcoin and in the future, the stats
2010
02:34:28.050 --> 02:34:35.475
has increased a lot in fiat terms, but, it's still a big competition to get into the next block in the block space. So
2011
02:34:38.755 --> 02:34:40.135
once that's no.
2012
02:34:40.595 --> 02:34:41.494
I doubt it.
2013
02:34:45.010 --> 02:34:45.510
So,
2014
02:34:46.450 --> 02:34:48.210
I guess, 6102 got,
2015
02:34:48.770 --> 02:34:51.990
censored from whatever platform he was using to
2016
02:34:53.605 --> 02:34:56.186
comment on the stream, but he just sent me a message
2017
02:34:56.645 --> 02:34:57.375
asking this,
2018
02:34:59.480 --> 02:35:03.660
is, is Docker a single point of failure for all of these node boxes?
2019
02:35:05.400 --> 02:35:05.900
And
2020
02:35:06.795 --> 02:35:17.199
I fucking love this dude. I just wasn't I wasn't answering his I I wasn't checking my messaging platform, so he hit the guests. And, like, that's that's what it's about. I appreciate it. I mean, continue.
2021
02:35:17.579 --> 02:35:18.079
Continue.
2022
02:35:19.180 --> 02:35:20.720
So so say you install,
2023
02:35:21.260 --> 02:35:30.115
mempool space app on your Raspberry Pi using the, Umbro app store, which is just a a front end UX for the Docker hub,
2024
02:35:30.755 --> 02:35:31.975
container repository.
2025
02:35:32.740 --> 02:35:34.439
I mean, if Docker
2026
02:35:34.740 --> 02:35:43.485
censors you and cancels your account, you can just make your own Docker Hub server and Umbrel can point to that. Right? I mean,
2027
02:35:45.305 --> 02:35:48.045
everything is open source and everything is self hostable.
2028
02:35:48.970 --> 02:35:50.910
Just because we have a GitHub account
2029
02:35:51.370 --> 02:35:55.870
doesn't mean that we need GitHub. Right? Like, you could make your own GitLab or whatever.
2030
02:35:56.534 --> 02:36:01.274
So I don't think Docker is a single point of failure or anything. Everything is, cryptographically
2031
02:36:01.654 --> 02:36:06.580
verified, so Docker Hub can't inject any malware or anything into the container anyway.
2032
02:36:07.680 --> 02:36:08.819
So it's pretty secure.
2033
02:36:10.775 --> 02:36:15.995
I saw another question that got answered for the second time now about the RFP estimator
2034
02:36:16.775 --> 02:36:17.815
asking if it's,
2035
02:36:18.375 --> 02:36:20.075
mempool based or something.
2036
02:36:20.830 --> 02:36:21.330
So
2037
02:36:22.350 --> 02:36:24.609
I wanna say, yes. Our fee estimator
2038
02:36:25.070 --> 02:36:26.290
is mempool based.
2039
02:36:28.670 --> 02:36:29.170
It's
2040
02:36:30.655 --> 02:36:34.115
it's taking, like, a snapshot from how the mem the state of the mempool
2041
02:36:34.495 --> 02:36:35.795
as it is right now,
2042
02:36:36.495 --> 02:36:36.895
and,
2043
02:36:37.375 --> 02:36:39.955
get the few estimates for the upcoming blocks
2044
02:36:42.870 --> 02:36:44.490
compared to there are some,
2045
02:36:45.351 --> 02:36:47.131
legacy or other
2046
02:36:47.695 --> 02:36:50.755
alternative fee estimator tools that are using a more probabilistic
2047
02:36:51.695 --> 02:36:53.075
fee estimation system.
2048
02:36:53.535 --> 02:36:54.755
And which one you
2049
02:36:55.260 --> 02:36:57.279
might prefer is just up to you,
2050
02:36:58.939 --> 02:37:00.159
user preference, basically.
2051
02:37:05.535 --> 02:37:07.635
What are the questions? What are the questions?
2052
02:37:09.855 --> 02:37:10.915
Did we get it?
2053
02:37:12.335 --> 02:37:24.005
I mean, that was a great that was a great insightful answer. I mean, Douglas asked me, what do what do I mean by I believe in SATS and priority? I mean, I don't know, man. Like, I I speak a lot publicly. I that was a that was a miss misspeak,
2054
02:37:25.105 --> 02:37:28.565
believe in SATS and priority. I I believe we'll hit SATS and priority,
2055
02:37:28.940 --> 02:37:33.500
and then we'll continue to pump forever after that. So I do not think that that is a,
2056
02:37:35.261 --> 02:37:42.845
it's not a death blow for pump forever. I think we will continue to pump forever after we we hit the SATSEN parity. I think people don't really realize,
2057
02:37:44.985 --> 02:37:47.085
how early Bitcoin is.
2058
02:37:48.470 --> 02:37:50.729
I really hate the Clubhouse platform.
2059
02:37:51.909 --> 02:37:53.770
It is very anti privacy.
2060
02:37:54.925 --> 02:37:59.985
There's a lot of things I I have issues with. I mean, I just social media in general, I have a lot of issues with.
2061
02:38:00.766 --> 02:38:04.561
But there's a lot of noob outreach on on my platform, and I have,
2062
02:38:05.180 --> 02:38:08.080
participated a bit there because I have FOMO and,
2063
02:38:08.700 --> 02:38:11.760
you know, what what else am I gonna do? And
2064
02:38:14.415 --> 02:38:23.390
people it we're so early. Like, people we we're all in a little bubble. We don't realize how early we are. Like, we're, like, insanely fucking early.
2065
02:38:23.770 --> 02:38:26.029
There's a lot of progress to be made on UX,
2066
02:38:27.050 --> 02:38:34.415
and there's a lot of progress to be made on motivation. Like, we just need people to be motivated. Like, people need to know why they're doing things. Like, they're
2067
02:38:35.035 --> 02:38:39.770
like, you you don't end up with a Bitcoiner who, like, cares about shit
2068
02:38:40.311 --> 02:38:43.931
that hasn't gotten burned somewhere along the line. Even if they don't get burned
2069
02:38:44.630 --> 02:38:45.130
in
2070
02:38:45.615 --> 02:38:51.715
in the in the Bitcoin world, they they get burned outside the Bitcoin world. You know, PayPal closed their account or,
2071
02:38:52.655 --> 02:38:56.359
their local government, like, closed down their business or,
2072
02:38:58.180 --> 02:39:00.520
you know, they they they had a
2073
02:39:01.380 --> 02:39:12.780
a business partner fuck them over in an in a non trust minimized way. Right? So, like, there's, like, all these different things that you get burned and you learn and you try and improve yourself. And it's gonna take time for people to get burned, and that's the unfortunate
2074
02:39:16.460 --> 02:39:16.960
reality.
2075
02:39:17.340 --> 02:39:18.780
Yeah. I I think,
2076
02:39:19.500 --> 02:39:21.715
that you you totally nailed it with the UX,
2077
02:39:22.274 --> 02:39:24.615
being really important because a lot of people,
2078
02:39:25.155 --> 02:39:27.015
especially, like, a few years ago said,
2079
02:39:27.395 --> 02:39:29.015
it's kind of ridiculous for
2080
02:39:29.351 --> 02:39:46.255
to expect everyone to run a full node because it's so difficult to set up. But I said, that's that's ridiculous. Like, it used to be really difficult to connect to the Internet. You have to, like, buy a modem and install your computer and get a phone line and ISP got now you just go to the store and get a iPhone, and
2081
02:39:46.601 --> 02:39:48.940
literally everyone has the Internet in their pocket.
2082
02:39:49.561 --> 02:40:00.766
Right? And so as the UX of Bitcoin improves where it's just an app to install on your phone, okay, I installed a Bitcoin full node app. Done. Literally, everyone can run a Bitcoin full node now. Or,
2083
02:40:01.306 --> 02:40:03.726
other projects like the UTRIXO project,
2084
02:40:04.950 --> 02:40:08.970
you know, my friend Calvin in Korea got a grant from BitMax to work on that.
2085
02:40:09.430 --> 02:40:13.530
It's gonna make it even easier for these, fully verifying nodes
2086
02:40:14.136 --> 02:40:17.755
to just be like an app on the mobile phone because now they can use,
2087
02:40:18.216 --> 02:40:20.315
minimal amount of, resources.
2088
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So it is totally gonna be possible for everyone to run a fully verifying,
2089
02:40:27.319 --> 02:40:37.135
bitcoin node and together with a lightning node, you know, packaged in some kind of mobile app. Right? You won't even need a Raspberry Pi. You just use your phone. And then,
2090
02:40:37.675 --> 02:40:38.335
you know,
2091
02:40:39.250 --> 02:40:41.190
shit gets real. Right? Like
2092
02:40:41.891 --> 02:40:46.070
I I mean, there's 2 ways to look at it. Right? Like, you you you hit the hurdle, like, oh,
2093
02:40:46.516 --> 02:40:50.936
like, we need more people. Like, people should run full nodes. That's ridiculous.
2094
02:40:51.716 --> 02:41:07.905
And then you can do you can do 2 things. You can make it easier to actually, you know, use your own node, or you can be, like, I'm just gonna throw in the towel and just, like, run nodes for people and just go to a completely custodial method. Right? And, like, so, like, fuck you. Like, why are you just throwing in the towel there? Like, fight.
2095
02:41:10.365 --> 02:41:12.545
Yeah. I think, like you said, if if you get goxed
NOTE
Transcription provided by Podhome.fm
Created: 3/17/2024 4:34:24 PM
Duration: 10354.887
Channels: 1
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level just a short time ago. It's now up more than 70%
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since January
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first. So,
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it's come off a little bit right under that 50,000 mark, but
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pretty extraordinary run,
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no matter how you look at it. Joe?
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I wish we knew all I wish we could see into the future, Andrew, because I. All you need to do, you you take the total
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global financial system.
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Right? Figure out what that is,
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and then divide it by 21,000,000.
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Well, first, take the total financial system and decide what percentage of that could someday be crypto related or or or Right. Where crypto could be Bitcoin play a role.
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Right. Or Bitcoin related. Then divide that by 21,000,000,
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and that's where you get some scary numbers. And I don't know if they're
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legit or or
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but at the same time, you worry about individual countries
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and governments,
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you know, that that have a huge vested interest. For example, the United States and the dollar remaining the reserve currency. So what do they do when it becomes clear? Or or if it starts to look like you you're you're not having control, which maybe it's already starting to look like that, isn't it? What do they do? They can do whatever they want, can't they, or can they? What's the
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the distribution
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of Bitcoin? Meaning, it's still held in in in only a few hands on a relative basis to to the country. And so that's to me what you should be looking for because you can buy you can you can buy half a Bitcoin. You could buy a 10th of a Bitcoin.
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And what what if it really to me, escape velocity is not necessarily
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the price itself,
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but just how many holders there are.
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It's not 21,000,000
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that because you can divide each one into and that's where you go. Okay. You just need to go back to, you know, you know,
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elementary school level math because I I'm not even gonna have a conversation,
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because there are 21,000,000.
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Whether you split them up or not, it's 21,000,000.
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So I don't know. I don't
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it's fixed. And if it has inherent value, then you can make a case of what Novogratz say, a 100,000.
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Other people, I think the Winklevov said a half, you know, half a1000000. If you do math like that half a1000000. I've heard a1000000 up from 200,000.
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1,000,000.
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do a lot of people side of it? I mean, you know, you're hearing are people ever really gonna use it not as a currency, but at some point you say, okay. I'm I I you know, it's made the run and then does it just level out at this sort of at some price or not? Right. It's hard to know.
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Right.
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Amazon in the top of the first inning.
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I don't know. I don't know. But,
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I don't know. Few of we'll see. Few of this more it gives us something to look forward to. A few of this morning's,
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It's your boy, Matt Odell,
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here for another Bitcoin Tuesday.
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This is Citadel dispatch episode 9,
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the live show that focused on actionable Bitcoin discussion.
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I am
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glad to be joined here by Soff Simon
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and Wiz, the 2 lead maintainers of the mempool dot space project.
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It's a tool that I use all the time every day.
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Big supporter of this tool.
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It comes on the heels of a crazy week where we saw Bitcoin breach 50k.
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That clip in the beginning that you just heard, it was our was CNBC. It was our boy Joe Kernan,
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sounding
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like a complete orange pilled Bitcoiner,
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and Andrew Ross Sorkin, who's been salty about Bitcoin going up,
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and seems to just be deflated and accepting his fate
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as a salty no corner on mainstream TV,
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as 2021 plays out.
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So let's jump into this, boys. I'm I'm pretty excited to be here for this one. It's one that we've been looking forward to for a while.
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I've spoke to Wiz many times in the past, but this is my first,
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public discussion with Simon, so I'm really looking forward to that.
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And, you know, I'm just I and welcome to all the freaks in the audience.
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We're looking forward to you guys giving us good questions,
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to riff on as we go through here. I just wanted to say,
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that both, Simon and Wiz are in basically the opposite time zone of of May. So this is their morning. So good morning to them,
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good evening to pretty much everyone else,
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and let's have a let's have a fun rip today, boys.
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So, I mean, let's start with Wiz. Wiz, how's it going over there?
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Should I speak in all caps? Is that the new norm?
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dispatch. Thanks for having us on.
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I'm excited.
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my understanding is,
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Simon is the founder of mempool.
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He ended up on Wiz's radar, and Wiz
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was happy to join him.
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Wiz, do you want to give us some light into how you 2 met?
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story to tell. I guess,
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in the very, couple years ago,
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when, Raspberry Pi 4 came out,
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a friend of mine, by the name of DJ Booth007
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and I were working on this
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open source thing that we never released called the Bitcoin Television.
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And it was kinda like a poor man's version of Umbrella, like, 2 years ago,
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where we had, like, you know, a quote, unquote app store and everything. And one of the apps that we wanted to have on there was mempool space. But this is 2 years ago, and mempoolspace was just this,
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simple little website that Simon had made, and it wasn't open source or anything. So I I hit him up on Twitter.
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I was like, hey, Simon. Like,
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you know, can we can we make this into an open source project and collaborate on it? And, he was like, yeah. Sure. And,
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we did it. You know? Like, I guess, like, within a few days of that conversation, we
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got the code together and, added some, you know, documentation and screenshots, and,
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we we launched it. Right, Simon?
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you forced me to
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release the open source. I had to spend a few days to clean up the code before I dare to release it on GitHub.
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of different sizes
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during the years,
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but I did this. I I was because I was
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starting to
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be a full time Bitcoiner in 2017. So I tried to find something in in to do related to Bitcoin.
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And I
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got this idea of doing this visualizer of the mempool.
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So I did it. So it's the first basic version was just seeing the blocks come in, seeing the mempool fills up. So the first version is almost like what it looks like right now.
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And, then Wiz came in, and he offered to host it. So since then, Wiz has
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hosted the site in his data centers and stuff. And
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and, we took it took a it took a while until we found a way of scaling it up with a more proper back end
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so we can make it into a full block explorer like we're like it is right now.
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it was just, like, this simple mental visualizer. That was the mental v one release. And
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that site
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was
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not super interesting because I think at the time, the mempool was just mostly empty and,
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that but but that was really good because it gave us a lot of time to,
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implement the full explorer functionality and the new dashboard and all the other really cool features
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that everyone uses now. And so I would say over the course of of, at least a year,
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right, Simon, we worked on on, just building out the Explorer,
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and,
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at some at some point,
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we launched the v two site, right, which is what
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users are. I guess we're on version 2.1 now.
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So,
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operationally, it was a big challenge because,
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you know, there's not too many back ends that are, like, high performance,
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index of all the Bitcoin blockchain data and transactions and addresses and everything.
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So, eventually, we found the,
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Blockstream had developed this project called Explora.
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So we took the back end from that,
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which was their fork of,
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Electris, which is the reimplementation of Electrum server in Rust, but with a new
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Rust API.
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And, in the beginning, it was it was a big challenge to even get that back and up running because it's such a beast to run.
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And,
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you know, I just spent way too many SATs on, powerful servers with tons of RAM and nonvolatile memory modules. And, eventually, we got this really fast,
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Electris back end up and running, and that was the the mempool v twos site.
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So,
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yeah, that's how it started.
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the livestream,
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they can do that through Twitch,
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Twitter, or YouTube. We support all of the evil empire
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services for broadcasting.
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Someone a freak was asking what, the Twitch
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name is. That is twitch.tv/cinnadledispatch.
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I appreciate if if you guys use that over YouTube, if if you're so willing
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because, YouTube tends to be a little bit draconian with my music choices at the end, but, you know, that is my own fault. Copyright is a thing.
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If you are watching the livestream, I have mempool.space
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right now on,
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the screen,
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the screen share.
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That is the main dashboard. You guys have been doing a lot of work on that dashboard,
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to try and and provide a compelling,
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like, one stop shop, right, for for user that that might be in need of a Blockchain Explorer. And I I think it's very interesting because,
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you guys took, I I guess, like, I don't even wanna say the name, but since the beginning, Block Explorers,
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pretty much every Block Explorer use the same exact derivative interface
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of of those block explorers. Heavy in text,
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you know, you're you're you're greeted with a big search bar in the beginning, and and and you you put in your, you know, your address details or your transaction ID, and it gives you more information. You guys went with a more visual approach. It's completely different than, any other block explorer. Right?
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Simon loves visual things.
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over the past few years. But
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with the blocks and everything, that was the main idea I just had from the where you start. It's how I felt it was the absolute natural way of displaying the the blockchain in the mempool. Because I if you go to a regular blockchain,
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Block Explorer website, you only see, like, a list, and people don't really
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understand how the blockchain looks like. So
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that's why I like to see it as blocks, and you actually see them come in. And people actually start learning and note noticing, like, oh, the blocks don't come in every 10 minutes and stuff. So I get a lot of random questions like that. Like, oh, they could be
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an hour between a block and people start noticing how the blockchain
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and the Bitcoin blockchain actually works, and the mempool actually works.
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of visualizing the mempool as projected blocks. So you can see what will
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most likely,
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be in the next mined block. And,
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this was, this was this was a big change from all other block explorers because up until that point, no one had focused on the mempool. And more importantly,
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you know, they only looked at the past. Like, a block explorer
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only shows,
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typically mined transactions, and they they left very little emphasis on the mempool simply because the mempool is not relevant,
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until
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very recently, like, within a few years ago. And so
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all of these blockchains are kinda stuck in the past. But nowadays, as Bitcoin's transitioning into this,
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you know, fee market,
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multilayer ecosystem,
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you care a lot more about right now. And you you know, once a transaction is mined,
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okay. Great. It's it's done now. We don't really care about it anymore. But when your transaction is stuck in the mempool
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or if you're about to make a transaction, you need to know what's going on with the mempool,
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how much, fee fee rate you should use.
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And then once you broadcast that transaction, you wanna track it as it, kinda sits in the mempool.
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Or if, you know, your transaction is stuck, maybe you wanna bump up the fee using RBF or CPFP or other methods.
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And, this is the tool
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for that. Right?
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In terms of public block explorers, I use your your block explorer and blockstream dot infos.
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Basically, those hit everything I need.
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We're gonna go further into self hosting and whatnot. But before we get there, I mean, based off of what Wiz said,
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I think
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I want to use, you know, one of the key aspects of Citadel Dispatch is I try and focus on actionable discussion. I think there's a lot of
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fluff in the Bitcoin space that results in, you know, people just talking philosophically about Bitcoin. You know, I love number go up as much as the next guy. Definitely guilty about that.
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But I like to focus on actionable things. Right? And one thing that is gonna be very important, especially for new Bitcoiners, but even for people that are class of 2017,
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you know, maybe they've been here for 3 or 4 years, they haven't really I mean, let's be honest. There's only, like, really one period in history where anyone has has seen real fee pressure.
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So I kinda wanted to unpack,
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what, you know, how what people should what do you guys think people should expect in terms of rising fees?
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Are we gonna see rising fees this year? You know, do what what should users do in terms of,
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when they choose their fee? Like, how how should they choose their fee? Do they do they overcompensate? Do they go under, and do they use RBF? Like, let's let's dive into this a little bit.
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if you're doing regular
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if you're doing Bitcoin transaction regularly, you start to learn some patterns. For example, that
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on weekends, the fees are lower.
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And, what we try to do in mempl space, what I try to do is teach people the proper way of using Bitcoin.
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For example, when you track a trans when you look up your transaction and track it, you get some flags
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showing red or green. I mean, green means good. So it will show green if you're using a SegWit transaction. It would be yellow if it's just
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a a SegWit compatible transaction. So
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and, there's also a a replace by fee flag. So it will be red if you're not using replace by fee. So it will try to encourage people to make everything green by upgrading to a wallet that's using full Segwit
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that has support for replace by fee.
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Then your fees will get cut in half, and you will be able to bump your fee for free, basically,
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incrementally
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until you reach a fee that's
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that will will push you further into
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the priorities priority queue.
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I'm there's still there's still a lot to unpack there.
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I I I don't I'm I'm trying to so so let's talk about mempools. Maybe that's the way to attack it.
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We hear people say,
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the mempool.
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I checked mempool space to check the mempool.
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If you see the tweet I sent out,
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and the title of YouTube,
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I successfully
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avoided that mishap that a lot of people do.
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There are really many mempools. Everyone has their own mempool.
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What what is a mempool? Why is that relevant?
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You know, and how does that how does that impact what fee the the user should choose?
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it is broadcasted to the
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peer to peer network of Bitcoin nodes all around the world.
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So
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your transaction is propagated and stored in everyone's
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mempool.
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And everyone can have a different slight different mempool, and they can have different different size limit of how big their mempool are.
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And
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the base basic,
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default limit is, like, 300 megabytes.
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So
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and some some other some nodes have higher,
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ceiling mempool space, for example, have much higher ceiling so we can show all the all the mempools so that people can actually find their transaction.
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But,
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yeah, basically mempool is where the transactions are waiting before they are confirmed.
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And the miners are just picking from the mempool when they are building constructing new blocks, and they are taking the
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transaction with the highest fees,
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in general.
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So
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if you want to be confirmed faster, you need to put a a high fee. And if you put a
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a fee that's too low, you're just gonna be far behind in the queue, and you can be stuck there for days, weeks, months
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until the until you raise the fee or until
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the backlog is clear.
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on the, topic of why there are transaction fees in the first place and, why the transaction fees are getting more expensive over time. Right? This is
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a relatively
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old concept, but only became relevant recently.
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Basically,
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in the old days,
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you know, like, 10 years ago, if you were making a Bitcoin transaction,
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you could do a zero fee Bitcoin transaction.
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But, this was not good because someone could spam the peer to peer network with,
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garbage transaction. So they added a minimum fee, which was just a hard coded I think it was, like,
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point 001,
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Bitcoin per transaction or something.
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And then they changed to
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fees per byte. And then when Segwit came along, they changed to
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v, sats per v byte.
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And
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all of this was in preparation for the
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eventuality that
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the demand for space in the Bitcoin blockchain
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will exceed
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the supply or the maximum capacity of,
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space in the Bitcoin blockchain.
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And this never really happened until,
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I guess, 2017,
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2018.
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And this is also what kinda sparked the whole,
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you know, the so called
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big block size debate,
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small block size debate.
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And,
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it turned out that,
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a malicious miner
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was spamming the
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Bitcoin network with high fee transactions
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because they wanted to artificially,
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inflate the fees of all transactions
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because they would get most of those transaction fees
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and also because they were,
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kind of shilling this narrative of
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we need to increase the block size in an attempt to basically take over Bitcoin. And this, you know, you kinda have to go into the whole
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New York agreements and,
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you know, SegWit two x, and and
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there's a there's a bunch
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of history as well as, like, the BIP 148 and
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the UASF movement
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where,
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the Bitcoin users essentially rejected that bullshit narrative and,
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activated Segwit on their own. And
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this, this caused
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the malicious mining,
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pool that had all this,
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covert
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covert ASIC boost hash power
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to have to fork off their own coin, which is now known as b cash or b trash.
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And, this was
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a very important point in Bitcoin's history where
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the users successfully defended
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an attack,
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to take over the the network by
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many companies and many mining pools who had kinda signed on to this,
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agreement.
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And so,
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that's
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that was the first time,
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the mempool really got full, and and it was it was kinda good in a way that,
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Bitcoin defended the attack, but but more so when you're talking about the mempool, this is what sparked Simon to first create the mempool space website back in, 2018,
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or whenever it was. And it gave us a few years to kind of develop and build up the site,
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for the eventuality
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of when the Bitcoin network naturally did,
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you know, have its demand for space exceed the supply.
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And so now,
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as of about
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2 or 3 months ago,
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basically, when the when the bull market started to get into full swing,
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now we're seeing you know, for example, the mempool has not cleared out since last year. What was that? December.
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I may or may not have made the mempool prediction over and over again,
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but I did make it for my New Year's resolution. I said or New Year's prediction. I said that the mempool would not clear this year,
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and it has not cleared yet.
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It has sometimes hit, 1 sat per byte. It's cleared 1 sat per byte transactions, but not cleared all of them. It's hit some of them.
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And that's usually during weekends as we said earlier when when transaction,
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a few times, when transactions
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or there's less transactions, there's less people using Bitcoin on the weekends. So so more, you know, lower fee transactions clear. Just to unpack what we just said, just just to make it super clear, the reason transaction fees exist in the 1st place. Why does Bitcoin have transaction fees? It's because it's a distributed ledger. Every single node runner
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is is holding this ledger. They're holding the data. They are also transferring the data between each other. That's heavy bandwidth requirements.
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And if we don't have a cost on the on the transactions, what happens is every transaction always has a cost regardless. You you have these shitcoins that say we have free transactions. We have free transactions. What that means is the transaction isn't paying the fee.
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Instead, the node operators are paying, and the node operators are paying in operation cost. They're paying in in bandwidth cost. They're paying in storage cost, and they're paying in the potential of of losing accessibility. Just the the fact that you can't run a note through Tor, you have to run it through AWS or one of these centralized,
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cloud providers.
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So so the fact that Bitcoin has transaction fees that are paid by the user are absolutely important to keeping the system distributed in the first place. That is the key thing. It's it's a cost to spam that is not that is not held, but, you know, that is not controlled by some centralized third party somewhere.
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If you try and spam the YouTube comments right now,
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YouTube will block you. Right? But then you have to rely on Google to be altruistic, and they're not. They're fucking evil.
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So so the the result for a distributed system is you need to have these fees. Right?
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environment, you need to financially incentivize
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what you want people to do and financially disincentivize
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what you,
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want people to not do. And so
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the way this, works in Bitcoin and the way,
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miners will also be compensated,
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instead of inflating the supply of Bitcoin once it hits the the limit of 21,000,000
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Bitcoin,
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is that
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we're transitioning
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from,
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you know, miners just being compensated from the block subsidy reward, which is 6.25
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Bitcoin per block right now to,
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individual
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transactions completely compensating the miners.
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And so,
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yeah. Okay. Matt's got it on the screen now. This is the 3 month,
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mempool
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space graph.
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Then you guys can
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view this on our website.
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But but, yeah, the the mempool hasn't cleared in the past,
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looks like, about two and a half months now.
380
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And this is very good. This is very healthy for Bitcoin because,
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there is so much demand that now the users are willing to compensate the miners directly. You know, this fee market is starting to develop.
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And, you know, some users
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aren't so happy about this. Right? Because up until
384
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a few months ago, you could always,
385
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pretty much just create a one sat per byte transaction
386
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and just wait. And this is this is created like a false,
387
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you know, meme,
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and, you can't do that anymore. Right? Like, now if you make a one sat transaction,
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it'll get rejected or purged from the mempool.
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391
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that is that, you know, the fee market is changing. The fee market is developing now. So you have to
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pay, the current market rates if you want your transaction fee if you want your transaction to get mined into a block. And if you don't, it'll get stuck in the mempool. And,
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you know, users,
395
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screw up their transaction all the time and, you know, they're they're worried. Oh my god. Did I lose my funds? What's happening? How do I fix my wallet? Because not all wallet apps.
396
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You know, a lot of wallets,
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don't support rebroadcasting
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transactions or bumping the fee of transactions,
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kind of just,
400
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they were kind of developed,
401
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in a time where you could where your transaction would always get confirmed, and that's no longer the case. Now your transaction might not get confirmed if you didn't use a high enough fee. It might get purged from the mempool.
402
00:28:34.960 --> 00:28:40.900
403
00:28:41.760 --> 00:28:44.020
404
00:28:44.485 --> 00:28:45.865
use Bitcoin transactions,
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this you know, there's more and more demand for the,
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space in the Bitcoin blockchain.
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00:28:52.090 --> 00:28:56.030
And, you know, the we have some really great developers working on,
408
00:28:56.730 --> 00:29:02.645
you know, things like Segwit and Taproot and Lightning and the upper layers of this Bitcoin stack that's developing.
409
00:29:03.105 --> 00:29:04.225
So it all kind of,
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00:29:04.705 --> 00:29:05.205
optimizes
411
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the usage of the space in the Bitcoin blockchain. Right? Each transaction is
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00:29:10.950 --> 00:29:12.809
using less space, or you can,
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00:29:14.070 --> 00:29:15.210
make many transactions
414
00:29:15.590 --> 00:29:16.730
in a single transaction
415
00:29:17.190 --> 00:29:18.650
now using various technologies.
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00:29:19.190 --> 00:29:20.010
And so,
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00:29:20.625 --> 00:29:36.165
you know, the the fees will or the the on chain usage in, how many bytes you use in the in the Bitcoin blockchain will go down over time, but the price per byte will increase not only in the number of satoshis that you're going to pay per byte,
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00:29:36.645 --> 00:29:43.480
But the, obviously, the price of Bitcoin in fiat value is also going up, and so those two numbers kind of multiply each other.
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00:29:44.440 --> 00:29:48.380
About, a few years ago, you could do a Bitcoin transaction for 5¢.
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00:29:49.160 --> 00:29:51.980
Now the minimum you can pay is usually about $5.
421
00:29:52.485 --> 00:30:06.890
And in a few years, it's conceivable that this could also, you know, see another 100 x increase to, you know, 100 of dollars for a single Bitcoin transaction, which is what we saw back in, 27 2017 or 2018 if you were doing a large transaction.
422
00:30:07.750 --> 00:30:12.255
Sometimes it could be, like, $100. Right? And that's simply due to the market demand
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and the the price of Bitcoin multiplying each other.
424
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having a fee market is that,
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00:30:23.960 --> 00:30:25.340
more important transactions
427
00:30:25.640 --> 00:30:28.140
are pricing out to more wasteful transactions.
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And people
429
00:30:30.695 --> 00:30:32.075
we see a lot of people
430
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doing legacy transactions and stuff, not using Segwit.
431
00:30:35.975 --> 00:30:41.310
And that means the fees are still too low. It doesn't hurt enough for them to actually
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00:30:42.090 --> 00:30:46.750
upgrade to a Segwit wallet or something like that or for exchanges to invest in
433
00:30:47.845 --> 00:30:48.745
the new infrastructure
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00:30:49.045 --> 00:30:49.705
with Segwit.
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00:30:50.325 --> 00:30:58.780
We have to the fees have to go up for that to happen, I think. There's like a threshold when start hurting too much. People need to switch lightning, and then
436
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the the block space and the blockchain will be used so much more efficiently.
437
00:31:05.015 --> 00:31:06.555
More more stuff. Exchanges,
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00:31:06.935 --> 00:31:09.195
like, what they could send, they could maybe
439
00:31:09.655 --> 00:31:12.155
send, using liquid between exchanges
440
00:31:12.660 --> 00:31:13.400
that would,
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reduce a lot of blockchain waste.
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00:31:16.900 --> 00:31:28.675
443
00:31:29.600 --> 00:31:30.740
improve their efficiency.
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But that also means
445
00:31:33.039 --> 00:31:51.950
that it's a slow process. Right? Like, they they first need to feel the pain, and then they actually need to make it a priority and, like, actually execute. Right? Because, like, these exchanges are you know, especially someone like a Coinbase is they're they're massive institutions, and and they're a lot of them are very distracted with Shitcoins and all their bullshit Shitcoin integrations.
446
00:31:52.490 --> 00:31:58.575
So it takes a while for them to actually integrate. But if they don't, it will slowly eat away at their business,
447
00:31:59.355 --> 00:32:09.760
and it will force them to be efficient. Now so I changed, for the the viewers who are are watching us this live or or after the fact through the video stream, I changed the view on mempool.space
448
00:32:10.140 --> 00:32:12.400
to the 1 year view, and you can really see,
449
00:32:13.345 --> 00:32:17.445
that we have this massive wave of transactions coming in. And and this is something
450
00:32:17.825 --> 00:32:21.125
that I've expected for a while, and it's it's pretty funny because
451
00:32:22.340 --> 00:32:28.600
a lot of people said, you know, there was a lot of concern trolling during the bear market. We won't have enough fee pressure
452
00:32:29.674 --> 00:32:30.575
to sustain
453
00:32:30.875 --> 00:32:32.014
Bitcoin when,
454
00:32:32.394 --> 00:32:37.855
the block subsidy decreases. So right now, the the miners get get paid 2 things. They get paid
455
00:32:38.809 --> 00:32:40.510
the the the block subsidy,
456
00:32:40.970 --> 00:32:42.030
which which happens
457
00:32:42.730 --> 00:32:46.555
every block, and and and that's what the having happens when it gets cut in half.
458
00:32:47.515 --> 00:32:55.055
And then and then you they also have the fees. And what happens is as that that subsidy gets cut in half, the fees are gonna have to take over.
459
00:32:55.610 --> 00:33:04.750
So there was a lot of concern trolling that the fees wouldn't be able to take over, and I always said that whole time. I was like, I'm not gonna concern myself with your concern trolling here because I know
460
00:33:05.050 --> 00:33:09.934
in a couple years, the concern trolling is gonna be that fees are too high. And and as we see on this chart,
461
00:33:10.395 --> 00:33:11.855
there's this massive increase,
462
00:33:12.269 --> 00:33:15.009
and this is what people don't realize, you know, about humble
463
00:33:15.389 --> 00:33:38.409
humble Matt during the bear market versus a humble Matt during the bull market. I mean, I'm not saying I'm humble. Like, I need to work on that still. But, if you have a massive wave coming in if you have a massive wave coming in and you're sitting on shore, the humble move isn't to just sit there in lowercase and let the wave crash on top of you. The humble move is to fucking go all caps and get ready to ride that fucking wave, because that wave is coming.
464
00:33:42.924 --> 00:33:43.885
465
00:33:44.605 --> 00:33:47.905
for many people, if, you know, if you're new to Bitcoin,
466
00:33:49.150 --> 00:33:51.250
the the fees probably seem expensive,
467
00:33:51.870 --> 00:33:55.490
and, you don't understand why it's it's so expensive.
468
00:33:56.110 --> 00:33:56.610
And
469
00:33:57.855 --> 00:34:01.315
like Simon was saying, it's the the pain will financially
470
00:34:01.615 --> 00:34:03.235
incentivize you to,
471
00:34:03.855 --> 00:34:05.795
basically migrate to layer 2
472
00:34:06.690 --> 00:34:20.535
payment networks for your transaction. So if if you wanna buy a coffee at the bar, you know, you're not gonna spend the $10 transaction fee for a $5 coffee. But if you go to that cafe all the time, you probably just open up a lightning channel to that cafe,
473
00:34:20.835 --> 00:34:24.455
and then you basically get free transactions with them after that. So,
474
00:34:25.260 --> 00:34:25.760
it's,
475
00:34:28.060 --> 00:34:32.480
it's a good financial incentive for everyone to optimize their on chain usage. Because
476
00:34:32.835 --> 00:34:34.994
right now, I mean, the Raspberry Pi can,
477
00:34:35.634 --> 00:34:41.569
just barely kind of run a Bitcoin core node and and a few other apps on top of it.
478
00:34:42.130 --> 00:34:43.970
And so I guess I guess,
479
00:34:44.450 --> 00:34:48.710
if you wanna talk about the, the Bitcoin full stack a little bit, there's these
480
00:34:49.484 --> 00:34:51.565
really cool solutions like Umbrel and,
481
00:34:52.045 --> 00:34:52.545
Raspipelets,
482
00:34:53.085 --> 00:34:54.625
Ronan Dojo, and Minode.
483
00:34:55.085 --> 00:34:57.984
And even BTC pay server, has this docker
484
00:34:59.000 --> 00:34:59.820
kind of ecosystem
485
00:35:00.120 --> 00:35:03.100
with different apps on it. But they're all kind of the same thing
486
00:35:03.560 --> 00:35:04.600
in the sense that,
487
00:35:05.560 --> 00:35:09.095
you can you can buy a very inexpensive Raspberry Pi,
488
00:35:10.035 --> 00:35:11.174
load all of your,
489
00:35:11.795 --> 00:35:17.540
you know, Bitcoin apps on it, have everything self hosted, be everything self sovereign. You don't have any security or privacy
490
00:35:18.240 --> 00:35:20.900
concerns. You can run everything off with Tor if you want.
491
00:35:21.280 --> 00:35:21.600
And,
492
00:35:22.480 --> 00:35:28.105
this is this is the real way to use Bitcoin. This is the this is the dream. Right? This is the original
493
00:35:28.644 --> 00:35:29.785
vision of,
494
00:35:30.404 --> 00:35:33.065
having a cheap node, like, a $100, $200
495
00:35:34.070 --> 00:35:34.570
where,
496
00:35:34.950 --> 00:35:36.550
you can run everything. And now,
497
00:35:37.030 --> 00:35:38.810
you can even run mempool space,
498
00:35:39.430 --> 00:35:44.895
on Raspberry Pi, which was the original vision of of the project and and why we started working together.
499
00:35:46.555 --> 00:35:49.055
Simon, what do you what did you wanna say about that?
500
00:35:49.730 --> 00:35:53.270
501
00:35:54.930 --> 00:36:03.454
late last year to make the memphis based website work on a Raspberry Pi with just Bitcoin Core and the Electrum server for transaction,
502
00:36:03.994 --> 00:36:04.974
address lookups.
503
00:36:05.835 --> 00:36:06.335
So
504
00:36:06.860 --> 00:36:07.600
it really
505
00:36:08.060 --> 00:36:13.200
feels humbling, and I'm really happy when I see the tweets. Past few days, seeing people
506
00:36:13.660 --> 00:36:17.215
tweeting out, hey. I'm running my own mempool space on my own node.
507
00:36:17.915 --> 00:36:18.415
So
508
00:36:19.755 --> 00:36:24.015
509
00:36:24.940 --> 00:36:26.140
that that's another thing,
510
00:36:26.460 --> 00:36:30.799
that people don't realize that haven't been through these bull cycles in the past. Like,
511
00:36:31.180 --> 00:36:32.720
the real the real productive
512
00:36:33.615 --> 00:36:41.155
things that happen happen when the price is going down, and we have, like, peace. Right? And we have peace and quiet. I feel like these these
513
00:36:41.569 --> 00:36:45.190
these months that we have every 4 years that we just rip like crazy
514
00:36:45.569 --> 00:36:59.810
is you kinda just, like, batten down the hatches and, like, honestly, like, I I appreciate the work that people do to bring in newcomers and stuff. Like, those newcomers aren't gonna find their feet until after the crash of this cycle and and and things settle down. But one of the coolest parts
515
00:37:00.270 --> 00:37:01.730
about this bear cycle
516
00:37:02.270 --> 00:37:04.290
is this push to become,
517
00:37:05.845 --> 00:37:10.665
more self sovereign for the average user. It's just very easy way easier to self host.
518
00:37:10.965 --> 00:37:13.145
And one of the reasons isn't just
519
00:37:14.760 --> 00:37:18.859
developers such as yourselves that have made their stacks more efficient.
520
00:37:19.640 --> 00:37:33.340
It's it was that the Raspberry Pi, the new Raspberry Pi is way more performant than previous Raspberry Pis. And the combination of the 2 has resulted in these software stacks that you're talking about, like Umbrel and Ronin Dojo and MyNode,
521
00:37:34.520 --> 00:37:39.180
and Nodl that that that allow you to basically run these different packages,
522
00:37:40.154 --> 00:37:42.795
relatively easy on on open hardware.
523
00:37:43.115 --> 00:38:05.974
I mean, the model is the the only one that is is you buy a prebuilt. But the other ones, you just buy a Raspberry Pi, and you can just run the software. So now so the so why would someone do that? And the reason someone would do that is because to interact with the Bitcoin network, you have to use a node. And if you're using someone else's node, you have to trust that node. You have to trust that that node is enforcing the rules of the Bitcoin network, and you have to trust that node with your privacy.
524
00:38:06.350 --> 00:38:10.770
That also goes for all the services you use on top of it. So when you go to something like mempool.space,
525
00:38:11.630 --> 00:38:13.650
the official third party mempool.space,
526
00:38:14.645 --> 00:38:15.545
you are trusting
527
00:38:16.085 --> 00:38:17.145
Simon and Wizz
528
00:38:17.525 --> 00:38:18.645
with your with your
529
00:38:19.204 --> 00:38:43.880
anything any data you put in there, you're trusting them with it. You put in an address and you have your IP address, your public IP address when you're connecting to it, you're connecting those two things and you're hoping that they're not logging that data. I don't think they're logging that data. I don't think Blockstream's logging that data, but you have to operate under the assumption that they are. So what is the solution for an average Bitcoin? You have basically 2 different paths you can go. You can use something like Tor or shared VPN,
530
00:38:45.380 --> 00:38:46.119
to access,
531
00:38:46.580 --> 00:38:47.560
something like mempool.space.
532
00:38:47.940 --> 00:38:52.085
In that way, at least they don't have your IP address. But if you don't keep changing circuits,
533
00:38:52.385 --> 00:38:58.520
they can still connect your addresses together. If you do 2 addresses, you search 2 addresses at the same time, they might be able to connect those.
534
00:38:59.000 --> 00:39:07.580
The more clean solution is to run a local copy of mempool, and and that's one of the coolest parts about about about your project is that you do have it open,
535
00:39:08.175 --> 00:39:14.835
and you have just recently added it to Umbrel. So now someone who's running an Umbrel node can simply go into
536
00:39:15.349 --> 00:39:22.410
this Umbrel app store, which is different than any other app store that that that people might be familiar with in that it's all open source software,
537
00:39:23.190 --> 00:39:24.970
that Umbrel is not a
538
00:39:25.495 --> 00:39:27.915
permission gatekeeper in the way they handle it.
539
00:39:28.615 --> 00:39:33.755
But you can just basically point and click, right, and and and run your own version of mempool
540
00:39:34.070 --> 00:39:37.210
on Umbrel, and you can even remotely connect to it through Tor.
541
00:39:38.710 --> 00:39:43.285
542
00:39:43.765 --> 00:39:44.265
personally
543
00:39:44.805 --> 00:39:45.545
like that,
544
00:39:46.405 --> 00:39:47.545
that one the most
545
00:39:48.005 --> 00:39:49.065
right now. But,
546
00:39:51.020 --> 00:39:51.760
yeah, it's,
547
00:39:52.540 --> 00:39:54.720
I think it's starting to get that simple.
548
00:39:56.140 --> 00:39:57.520
You just buy the hardware.
549
00:39:57.820 --> 00:39:58.560
You just
550
00:39:59.335 --> 00:40:07.035
boot up Umbrel, and you're good to go. You just click install, and you're you're there. You can connect your wallet to it. Maybe Electrum, for example, is very easy.
551
00:40:07.350 --> 00:40:08.810
So you can make transactions
552
00:40:09.670 --> 00:40:11.270
with your Electrum wallet, and,
553
00:40:12.070 --> 00:40:15.930
everything goes through your node, and you can track your transactions in mempool.
554
00:40:16.385 --> 00:40:22.165
And that's also to your node. And then you get that feeling of self self sovereignty. And
555
00:40:22.465 --> 00:40:25.650
once you go self sovereign, you never go back, I think.
556
00:40:26.690 --> 00:40:31.029
557
00:40:31.490 --> 00:40:36.085
you know, the other the other Raspberry Pi distributions are also great. But for a real
558
00:40:36.545 --> 00:40:37.045
nontechnical
559
00:40:37.345 --> 00:40:38.805
person who wants to get,
560
00:40:39.185 --> 00:40:45.350
started with self hosting, it's it's literally one click to install mempool. I mean, it doesn't get,
561
00:40:45.970 --> 00:40:47.510
easier than that. And,
562
00:40:48.335 --> 00:40:48.835
you
563
00:40:50.015 --> 00:40:52.755
know, you you know, when you when you wanna, like, seduce,
564
00:40:53.454 --> 00:41:00.510
newbies to to become, like, cypherpunks and self sovereign people, This is the way I feel you have to do it. You have to,
565
00:41:00.830 --> 00:41:01.570
have such
566
00:41:02.030 --> 00:41:05.250
a a sexy UI and a slick user experience
567
00:41:05.950 --> 00:41:06.610
so that
568
00:41:07.184 --> 00:41:18.309
they can, very, very easily get started, and then they can level up from there. Like, okay. Maybe I don't wanna use the app store. Maybe I wanna compile everything from source. You know, you can you can level up on your own
569
00:41:18.609 --> 00:41:19.509
speed if you,
570
00:41:20.049 --> 00:41:20.789
so desire.
571
00:41:21.535 --> 00:41:30.115
But, but, yeah, all the all the apps on there are great. And that was the original, like, meme of Bitcoin. Right? It's like Bitcoin, be your own bank. Well,
572
00:41:30.480 --> 00:41:34.020
now if you install BTCPay, you can be your own payment processor.
573
00:41:34.320 --> 00:41:38.500
If you install mempool, you can have your own block explorer, mempool visualizer.
574
00:41:39.135 --> 00:41:39.795
If you
575
00:41:40.175 --> 00:41:48.460
install, you know, Bisc isn't an app on for Raspberry Pi's yet, but once we get that working, then you'll be your own Bitcoin exchange. Right? So all of these apps
576
00:41:49.420 --> 00:41:55.200
kind of build on top of the Bitcoin full stack where you have Bitcoin Core or Lightning Node,
577
00:41:55.580 --> 00:41:59.285
as the lower layers and these, apps, the higher layers.
578
00:41:59.665 --> 00:42:01.445
And, it it's really beautiful,
579
00:42:01.905 --> 00:42:07.365
when everything because that was another original meme with Bitcoin. They said not your keys, not your Bitcoin.
580
00:42:07.740 --> 00:42:09.600
But it's not enough,
581
00:42:10.540 --> 00:42:12.560
like, for security concerns,
582
00:42:13.100 --> 00:42:17.040
having your your own Bitcoin on your own keys is great. But for privacy concerns,
583
00:42:17.365 --> 00:42:21.945
you also wanna use your own full node. So if it's, like, not your hardware,
584
00:42:22.405 --> 00:42:33.910
not your, you know, XPub privacy I don't have a cool meme for that, but but the the idea is the same as you you not only want everything to be on your own keys, but also on your own hardware. And so all of these open source projects,
585
00:42:34.385 --> 00:42:37.925
you know, they're really geeky and hard to run, but not anymore. Now you can,
586
00:42:38.305 --> 00:42:41.105
you you know, one click install all these apps, and that's,
587
00:42:41.665 --> 00:42:45.750
really, really bullish for, self sovereign g with regular Bitcoiners.
588
00:42:46.290 --> 00:42:50.230
589
00:42:50.530 --> 00:42:51.030
RaspiBlitz
590
00:42:51.410 --> 00:42:53.350
is probably the most featureful
591
00:42:54.015 --> 00:42:55.795
version of all of these packages.
592
00:42:57.455 --> 00:43:00.870
It is for more advanced users, but I think it's easier than people think it is.
593
00:43:01.350 --> 00:43:05.050
But I would agree with Wiz that Umbrel is extremely promising.
594
00:43:06.310 --> 00:43:12.815
I try not to pick favorites because I just I love that we have all these different teams working on these competing platforms.
595
00:43:13.755 --> 00:43:16.575
And, honestly, I think that as you become more
596
00:43:16.940 --> 00:43:18.880
advanced as a user, you might have
597
00:43:19.260 --> 00:43:24.000
dedicated device you might have multiple. So so we have, u t s 9 as,
598
00:43:24.700 --> 00:43:25.599
in the comments,
599
00:43:26.454 --> 00:43:34.795
if this opens you up to more attack vectors because you have more software running, where your Bitcoin node is running. And, I mean, I think that's a perfect example where
600
00:43:35.350 --> 00:43:37.690
as you become more advanced, if you have situations
601
00:43:38.070 --> 00:43:43.530
where you do have a hot wallet, which a a normal on chain Bitcoin users should never have a hot wallet really on there.
602
00:43:43.964 --> 00:43:49.505
They should never have their wallet on the same node as in the same machine as as Bitcoin Core,
603
00:43:50.444 --> 00:43:51.825
because then it's hot.
604
00:43:52.390 --> 00:43:54.410
But when it comes to Lightning or CoinJoin,
605
00:43:56.630 --> 00:43:59.050
you're you're you're gonna have you're gonna have,
606
00:44:00.125 --> 00:44:08.145
funds hot. So you might want to have multiple devices. You might be running multiple of these different packages. Like, I I'm right now, I'm looking at I'm running multiple,
607
00:44:08.940 --> 00:44:17.025
and I'm using multiple because you wanna have, like, dedicated for your lightning, and you wanna have dedicated for your 247 coin joint to reduce your your attack surface a bit.
608
00:44:17.664 --> 00:44:20.484
But I I honestly, I'm I'm I am blown away.
609
00:44:20.865 --> 00:44:22.724
I think Umbrel makes the accessibility
610
00:44:23.984 --> 00:44:26.724
way, way, way, way easier. Like, I think
611
00:44:27.799 --> 00:44:34.940
the the simple thing that they this idea I don't know. It's kind of gone understated that people aren't talking about. This idea that they derive
612
00:44:35.640 --> 00:44:36.140
all,
613
00:44:38.275 --> 00:44:45.894
they derive, like, everything comes as a child secret of your main seed. So the whole thing is backed up by just this one master seed.
614
00:44:48.420 --> 00:44:52.840
And I maybe it's mixed with, like and they also have a cloud backup system in place.
615
00:44:53.300 --> 00:45:06.470
So anything that needs to be active, like your lightning can be active actively backed up, and then everything is derivative of the seed. So then all the user really needs on the surface is they're putting in these words and everything is backed up for them.
616
00:45:07.430 --> 00:45:09.530
617
00:45:09.950 --> 00:45:10.730
you know,
618
00:45:11.030 --> 00:45:21.295
many smart people say, well, doesn't this increase your attack vector? Or, you know everything is a trade off at the end of the day. If you want the most hardcore secure setup,
619
00:45:21.755 --> 00:45:23.870
that's not, you know, like some,
620
00:45:24.350 --> 00:45:31.330
app store quote unquote app store thing. Right? The the point of the app store is you're optimizing for the user experience, one click installation.
621
00:45:31.825 --> 00:45:33.205
If your if your,
622
00:45:33.745 --> 00:45:34.565
threat model
623
00:45:34.945 --> 00:45:39.445
is, you know, some nation state is gonna be going after your
624
00:45:40.000 --> 00:45:42.500
transactions or or whatever, then, yeah, maybe
625
00:45:42.880 --> 00:46:04.290
some one click Raspberry Pi thing is enough for you. But if you're an average Bitcoiner and you just wanna stack sats without the government knowing about it, Umbrella's perfect. And, like, you can level up from there. Right? It's just something to to kinda seduce people into getting started with self sovereignty. It's a good stepping stone or a lot even long term solution if if, it meets your use case. And,
626
00:46:04.925 --> 00:46:08.545
you know, all of these, community projects are very,
627
00:46:09.565 --> 00:46:11.905
pure. Right? Like, the community
628
00:46:13.369 --> 00:46:15.390
that that's, you know, there's this
629
00:46:15.770 --> 00:46:18.750
this really beautiful community of open source developers.
630
00:46:19.930 --> 00:46:22.109
Everyone kinda knows each other and,
631
00:46:22.454 --> 00:46:25.115
you know, collaborates with each other and and,
632
00:46:27.095 --> 00:46:27.915
all the projects,
633
00:46:29.015 --> 00:46:37.420
align themselves with the interests of the Bitcoin community, and a lot of them are are, directly funded by the Bitcoin community in various ways. Like,
634
00:46:38.600 --> 00:46:47.505
for example, BTC pay made a foundation and they got big grants from, like, Square and and Kraken and and, all these other corporate sponsors. And,
635
00:46:47.965 --> 00:46:51.800
Mempool spaces is has just gotten a ton of love from the community.
636
00:46:52.340 --> 00:46:57.295
Even now while while we're on this show, someone, sent me, like, some money.
637
00:46:57.595 --> 00:46:58.895
So so just, you know,
638
00:46:59.195 --> 00:47:00.815
just, like, huge love,
639
00:47:01.275 --> 00:47:03.055
from all the the community. Like,
640
00:47:04.050 --> 00:47:08.630
you you guys are creating this huge financial incentive for us to keep
641
00:47:09.010 --> 00:47:11.350
everything honest and for us to keep
642
00:47:11.795 --> 00:47:14.375
working hard on the project and keep,
643
00:47:15.075 --> 00:47:21.650
you know, giving the community exactly what it wants. And so we don't have to put any, you know, shit coins or
644
00:47:21.950 --> 00:47:22.450
advertisements
645
00:47:23.310 --> 00:47:28.690
or anything that would ruin the project or the the experience of the the overall,
646
00:47:30.105 --> 00:47:31.724
you know, just this app ecosystem.
647
00:47:32.184 --> 00:47:36.924
And and that's why it works is because we're all of our interests are aligned. Right? Like,
648
00:47:37.410 --> 00:47:43.030
there's no, like, evil companies here. Whereas if, you know, you you put your your content on YouTube,
649
00:47:43.490 --> 00:47:47.355
you YouTube doesn't, you know, care about you. They care about monetizing
650
00:47:47.734 --> 00:47:48.474
your content,
651
00:47:49.015 --> 00:47:56.770
and or, you know, they'll they'll harvest all of your private data, whatever. You know, the interests are are kind of opposite. Right? The interest of YouTube
652
00:47:57.070 --> 00:47:58.290
are to the shareholders
653
00:47:58.590 --> 00:48:02.609
of YouTube. Right? Not to the users of YouTube. But with Bitcoin community,
654
00:48:03.494 --> 00:48:05.915
these open source apps can exist where,
655
00:48:06.935 --> 00:48:08.475
all of our interests are aligned.
656
00:48:09.335 --> 00:48:10.475
Yeah. It looks like
657
00:48:11.250 --> 00:48:15.590
Matt's, Matt's bringing up the sponsor's page here on the the live stream, but,
658
00:48:16.370 --> 00:48:17.750
yeah, we we've got,
659
00:48:18.565 --> 00:48:19.704
like, a 100 people,
660
00:48:20.964 --> 00:48:28.310
661
00:48:30.550 --> 00:48:31.270
662
00:48:31.670 --> 00:48:36.730
that that's true. We set the I think it was, like, a $100 when we first launched this sponsors feature.
663
00:48:37.155 --> 00:48:40.855
And so I guess Bitcoin is about $10. Now Now it's 500.
664
00:48:41.475 --> 00:48:43.495
665
00:48:44.539 --> 00:48:47.039
666
00:48:47.579 --> 00:48:50.240
I mean, we got a sponsor, like, a few hours ago. So
667
00:48:50.700 --> 00:48:51.579
people are,
668
00:48:52.140 --> 00:49:03.825
are really, sending their love both, you know, in with their words and with their with their stats. And this this allows us to basically work full time directly for the Bitcoin community, and
669
00:49:04.820 --> 00:49:06.120
it it's the most heartwarming,
670
00:49:07.060 --> 00:49:11.620
humbling thing. Like, Simon, you know, tells me. Like, Simon, what do you what do you think about our,
671
00:49:12.180 --> 00:49:12.680
project
672
00:49:13.265 --> 00:49:14.085
funding situation?
673
00:49:16.225 --> 00:49:16.945
674
00:49:17.505 --> 00:49:22.460
totally mind blown by the sponsors because I I didn't think we would get that many
675
00:49:22.940 --> 00:49:24.720
when you told me to make that feature.
676
00:49:26.140 --> 00:49:26.640
But,
677
00:49:27.020 --> 00:49:27.580
yeah. I
678
00:49:29.855 --> 00:49:32.275
679
00:49:32.895 --> 00:49:36.515
I mean, this is something that people talk about all the time is is
680
00:49:37.800 --> 00:49:40.300
the difficulty in funding open source work,
681
00:49:40.920 --> 00:49:42.300
that there's no easy,
682
00:49:43.800 --> 00:49:44.300
monetization
683
00:49:44.680 --> 00:49:51.575
strategy for open source, and that is going to be the death knell for open source. I mean, Bitcoiners obviously would say
684
00:49:51.955 --> 00:49:53.655
we've watched open source flourish,
685
00:49:54.700 --> 00:50:04.744
in the Bitcoin ecosystem, but but it it definitely is a concern for a lot of people. Do you think this is something that the way you guys set up the sponsors is something that other open source projects in the space should consider?
686
00:50:06.645 --> 00:50:09.204
687
00:50:09.880 --> 00:50:12.940
to receive a lot of, sponsors and stuff when I,
688
00:50:14.200 --> 00:50:19.660
was building the site. It was just on on my out of my own pocket and spare time and stuff.
689
00:50:20.345 --> 00:50:25.805
I was just super happy when we offered to host the website for free so I didn't have to pay for some hosting.
690
00:50:26.345 --> 00:50:28.204
That is, like, everything was
691
00:50:28.825 --> 00:50:30.730
settled. Everything is done.
692
00:50:32.550 --> 00:50:33.030
693
00:50:33.510 --> 00:50:34.010
Yeah.
694
00:50:34.470 --> 00:50:38.174
695
00:50:38.815 --> 00:50:43.635
you know, I don't I don't wanna think of how many stats I spent on server parts and stuff. But, yeah, in the beginning,
696
00:50:44.255 --> 00:50:45.875
before the site was,
697
00:50:46.255 --> 00:50:49.849
I guess, like, the the level that it is now of of,
698
00:50:50.710 --> 00:50:59.365
speed and user experience and all the features we have. In the beginning, of course, you know, we had to work on it for a couple years just, out of our own savings or or whatnot. But,
699
00:51:00.545 --> 00:51:01.045
once
700
00:51:01.744 --> 00:51:09.520
the site was very useful and there was a lot of people using it, I said to Simon, like, hey. What? Let's let's make this sponsor program. Like,
701
00:51:10.815 --> 00:51:12.755
we'll, you know, we'll let the
702
00:51:13.295 --> 00:51:16.035
the users who sponsor us have their
703
00:51:16.494 --> 00:51:18.940
profile photo on the on the website directly
704
00:51:28.125 --> 00:51:28.865
it basically,
705
00:51:29.245 --> 00:51:37.620
covers all the operational expenses of, running the site. And Simon and I can even, you know, get get a little bit of salary from it too. So it it's,
706
00:51:38.580 --> 00:51:44.360
it's like we're directly working for the Bitcoin community, and that is the the dream. That is the real
707
00:51:45.765 --> 00:51:53.705
708
00:51:54.619 --> 00:51:56.160
relatively private manner,
709
00:51:56.859 --> 00:51:59.440
which is key for open source development because,
710
00:52:00.859 --> 00:52:07.805
you know, users don't want to dock themselves to the developers, and a lot of times the developers don't wanna, you know, dock themselves to the users.
711
00:52:08.424 --> 00:52:14.590
And and one of the reasons open source development is is is more censorship resistant than, closed source development
712
00:52:14.970 --> 00:52:17.950
is because the devs might not be known. They might be NIMs.
713
00:52:18.434 --> 00:52:31.440
So that's one main thing that Bitcoin has has helped in just terms of open source. And then the second main thing is that because Bitcoin is designed to pump forever, you have these people that are very pro free open source software,
714
00:52:32.299 --> 00:52:33.599
that are getting rich,
715
00:52:33.980 --> 00:52:36.480
and they have the money to spend. So,
716
00:52:37.255 --> 00:52:45.994
I mean, Wiz separated it out between the sponsors and him bootstrapping it, but, really, Wiz was the first sponsor. Like, Simon
717
00:52:46.790 --> 00:52:47.770
Simon created,
718
00:52:48.150 --> 00:53:05.125
this tool and Wiz came along and was like, I have Bitcoin. I wanna fund you. This is a dope project. I wanna be a part of it. And he basically set the groundwork for other Bitcoiners coming in later when this the official sponsor page came up, right, to to come in and and and take take the ball. Right?
719
00:53:06.450 --> 00:53:07.990
720
00:53:08.290 --> 00:53:17.785
I don't have any Bitcoin. I lost it all in the boating accident. I thought we were very clear on this. I lost I actually lost all my Bitcoin in a very obscure cold card hack.
721
00:53:19.285 --> 00:53:20.585
That's Oh, yeah. That's horrible.
722
00:53:21.260 --> 00:53:22.513
Told me. I didn't
723
00:53:22.940 --> 00:53:23.440
I'm
724
00:53:23.819 --> 00:53:27.599
very very was was very secure though. How can I You should've who
725
00:53:28.220 --> 00:53:33.994
726
00:53:36.214 --> 00:53:36.775
727
00:53:37.480 --> 00:53:42.460
but but that's that's true, really. Like, 6102 is saying in the comments right now. To do,
728
00:53:42.760 --> 00:53:46.779
to get, you know, paid or compensated for open source work,
729
00:53:47.365 --> 00:53:52.745
and this is something that's really true in with the with the bisque project too, is that you never get paid
730
00:53:53.685 --> 00:53:54.185
before
731
00:53:55.620 --> 00:53:57.000
the the the work is completely
732
00:53:57.780 --> 00:54:01.240
done and shipped and users are using it. Right? Otherwise,
733
00:54:01.700 --> 00:54:09.065
the the incentive structure kinda falls apart. If you, you know, if if I'm gonna hire someone and pay them a full time salary,
734
00:54:10.484 --> 00:54:16.890
there's no incentive for them to ship a high quality project because they're just gonna get their paycheck no matter what. And
735
00:54:17.430 --> 00:54:18.809
if you prepay something,
736
00:54:19.190 --> 00:54:23.905
you know, like, it you know, they're just gonna ship whatever. But if you
737
00:54:24.605 --> 00:54:31.090
if you build something and you just passionately work on it and make it great and everyone loves it, and then
738
00:54:31.550 --> 00:54:32.210
the community
739
00:54:32.830 --> 00:54:33.330
voluntarily
740
00:54:33.630 --> 00:54:34.350
on their own,
741
00:54:34.830 --> 00:54:36.670
compensates you. They're not
742
00:54:37.070 --> 00:54:38.850
I guess they're not really paying for
743
00:54:39.395 --> 00:54:44.695
the work you've already done, but they're kind of paying you for the next version. Right? They're kinda like saying, we like this,
744
00:54:45.075 --> 00:54:48.640
and we want you to keep working on it. We want you to keep operating it.
745
00:54:49.599 --> 00:54:50.579
And and that's,
746
00:54:51.359 --> 00:54:54.400
how the open that's how you get funded for an open source. So, I mean, I guess
747
00:54:55.119 --> 00:54:59.775
748
00:55:00.335 --> 00:55:03.775
But, really, it's 3 facets. Right? So you have you have,
749
00:55:04.670 --> 00:55:13.490
you have the fact that it's easier to fund developers. You have the fact that Bitcoiners are getting rich, and then you have the third fact that a lot of those Bitcoiners are developers.
750
00:55:13.895 --> 00:55:15.275
Right? So if if
751
00:55:15.575 --> 00:55:16.715
they are holding Bitcoin,
752
00:55:17.895 --> 00:55:19.755
they're seeing their value increase.
753
00:55:20.455 --> 00:55:26.600
They're mission driven by you know, they're ideologically driven by the Bitcoin project, and they want to improve it.
754
00:55:27.220 --> 00:55:43.160
So so you basically have these threefold things. Right? I mean I mean, Simon wasn't I mean, I know Simon has no Bitcoin now, but when Simon first started working on the project, he was working on the project because not only did he own Bitcoin, but he wanted to see it succeed and he believed in the mission. Right? So it's,
755
00:55:44.339 --> 00:55:48.680
in a lot of like, there's so many ways that people really underestimate how Bitcoin,
756
00:55:49.694 --> 00:55:52.755
improves the the free open source landscape.
757
00:55:53.295 --> 00:55:55.155
And, you know, you see a lot of
758
00:55:55.535 --> 00:55:58.194
VCs and stuff, they go down this rabbit hole where,
759
00:55:58.670 --> 00:56:00.610
oh, like, Blockchain solves,
760
00:56:01.150 --> 00:56:05.330
open source funding because, like, any dev can make some shit token.
761
00:56:05.635 --> 00:56:06.135
But
762
00:56:06.595 --> 00:56:09.015
really, the hard shit was was was
763
00:56:09.475 --> 00:56:14.455
the the the real substance of shit was solved by Bitcoin existing in the first place.
764
00:56:15.880 --> 00:56:18.120
765
00:56:19.560 --> 00:56:31.960
I guess yeah. Some people some people consider it yeah. I I mean I mean, we we're also kinda taking fiat donations now, like the, GitHub Sponsors Program. We just signed up for that a few days ago, and, I think we're starting to get some fiat,
766
00:56:32.440 --> 00:56:34.619
donations on there. But, yeah, like, 99%
767
00:56:34.920 --> 00:56:35.740
of the funds,
768
00:56:36.280 --> 00:56:55.530
that we received from the community are, of course, in in Bitcoin. And it was so easy for, you know, Simon and I to just make, like, a multisig wallet together. Like, yeah, let's, you know, hook it to a BTC payback end. Let's integrate it into the site. And, you know, you you're instantly set up. So it's it's very easy to get started. And if you're
769
00:56:56.070 --> 00:56:56.570
really,
770
00:56:56.875 --> 00:57:01.615
if you really work hard for the Bitcoin community, like, Biscuit is a is a great example.
771
00:57:02.955 --> 00:57:04.715
They, they compensate you,
772
00:57:05.890 --> 00:57:06.770
in their own,
773
00:57:07.490 --> 00:57:10.150
form of equity, which is kind of like a colored Bitcoin,
774
00:57:11.490 --> 00:57:12.390
called BSQ.
775
00:57:12.850 --> 00:57:13.170
And,
776
00:57:14.290 --> 00:57:25.560
it it's not like a shitcoin or anything. It's just this, token that's used, you know, internally between the developers. But, basically, I contributed to Bisk for the past, I guess, almost 2 years
777
00:57:25.940 --> 00:57:28.820
now. And that compensation that I've got from Bisk,
778
00:57:29.700 --> 00:57:35.585
was far greater than what I would have earned, you know, working, like, a full time job at Google or something just from the,
779
00:57:36.045 --> 00:57:37.345
780
00:57:38.925 --> 00:57:46.690
781
00:57:47.150 --> 00:57:51.315
782
00:57:52.015 --> 00:57:52.515
What
783
00:57:52.975 --> 00:57:55.715
what, why why isn't the Bisk token a shitcoin?
784
00:57:57.480 --> 00:58:02.120
785
00:58:03.080 --> 00:58:16.160
take the shares of Kraken, for example. Right? Kraken is a company. They have, venture capital investments and and all those investors hold shares in Kraken. Well, Bisk is not a company. And so for the founders and developers
786
00:58:16.460 --> 00:58:18.000
and contributors to Bisk,
787
00:58:18.380 --> 00:58:21.520
the way they have equity is they just use colored Bitcoin.
788
00:58:21.925 --> 00:58:22.425
So
789
00:58:22.885 --> 00:58:24.744
our shares in a company, a shitcoin,
790
00:58:25.285 --> 00:58:28.425
well, it's more like a security or something. Right? But it's
791
00:58:29.445 --> 00:58:30.565
it's it's,
792
00:58:30.885 --> 00:58:31.545
you know,
793
00:58:32.150 --> 00:58:42.285
just because it's on a blockchain, just because we call it a a token or something, does it like, Shitcoin is a good example of Shitcoin is like Ripple. Right? They just print these tokens
794
00:58:42.665 --> 00:58:44.845
with a huge pre mine and then,
795
00:58:46.105 --> 00:58:48.125
use marketing and, bots,
796
00:58:48.450 --> 00:58:52.230
you know, to trade on the exchange and kind of make all this fake volume
797
00:58:52.690 --> 00:58:57.375
and pump the price and whatnot and just dump it on newbies for literally nothing. Right? And then everyone loses
798
00:58:57.755 --> 00:59:02.075
799
00:59:02.555 --> 00:59:06.960
there's no sponsors of the show, so I just want to just just play a quick clip,
800
00:59:08.380 --> 00:59:09.520
from the BIS community.
801
00:59:12.380 --> 00:59:14.640
802
00:59:15.305 --> 00:59:17.325
They collect your personal information
803
00:59:18.265 --> 00:59:20.045
and jeopardize your privacy.
804
00:59:21.464 --> 00:59:21.964
KYC
805
00:59:22.345 --> 00:59:24.204
is the illicit activity.
806
00:59:26.060 --> 00:59:27.440
Bisc is open source.
807
00:59:27.980 --> 00:59:30.000
It does not collect user data.
808
00:59:30.380 --> 00:59:32.065
You keep your private keys,
809
00:59:32.865 --> 00:59:35.605
create or take offers to trade peer to peer,
810
00:59:35.905 --> 00:59:38.244
and keep your Bitcoin private and secure.
811
00:59:44.050 --> 00:59:46.630
812
00:59:47.330 --> 00:59:47.830
Yeah.
813
00:59:48.210 --> 00:59:49.510
814
00:59:50.225 --> 00:59:52.085
He's here to help. Us a lot.
815
00:59:52.785 --> 00:59:53.285
Pedro's,
816
00:59:53.585 --> 00:59:54.885
been been, like,
817
00:59:55.345 --> 00:59:58.245
helping us to, with some design work for mempool,
818
00:59:58.630 --> 01:00:02.089
and, he's also the designer for Bisc. He made the logo
819
01:00:02.390 --> 01:00:05.049
of the T shirt that I'm wearing right now. And
820
01:00:05.575 --> 01:00:14.715
he's also helping me with my, book cover design for the Bitcoin standard Japanese version. And, basically, he's just designing all the Bitcoin projects, and he's
821
01:00:15.140 --> 01:00:31.934
he's even sponsored mempool twice. It's kinda funny if you look on our sponsor page. He he loves mempool so much. He sponsored us twice. So just huge love to Pedro Mann. No. Yeah. I'm big big fan. He's he's he's he's a good friend. I consider him a good friend. And, I just wanna say, like, it's very unique
822
01:00:32.330 --> 01:00:36.030
823
01:00:36.330 --> 01:00:36.830
video
824
01:00:37.370 --> 01:00:39.150
for for an open source project.
825
01:00:39.450 --> 01:00:40.750
That is really rare.
826
01:00:41.210 --> 01:00:46.555
So I just I play that whenever I get the chance. I get a little drunk on Twitter and it just goes up. It's just like automatic.
827
01:00:47.415 --> 01:00:48.940
But I I think so the key
828
01:00:59.855 --> 01:01:00.595
to basically
829
01:01:01.375 --> 01:01:07.795
spread out the fees that the exchange receives and incentivize further development and progress for the network.
830
01:01:09.119 --> 01:01:09.619
So
831
01:01:09.920 --> 01:01:12.819
it really depends on what your definition of a shitcoin is.
832
01:01:14.400 --> 01:01:20.285
You know, if if if your definition of a Bitcoin is that it's gonna trend to 0 in terms of Bitcoin long term,
833
01:01:20.825 --> 01:01:22.685
then the Chrysler building is a shitcoin,
834
01:01:23.145 --> 01:01:27.670
and the BIST token is also a shitcoin. It will you're probably better off holding Bitcoin,
835
01:01:28.450 --> 01:01:32.685
than the BIST token. You're probably better off holding Bitcoin than the Chrysler building.
836
01:01:33.245 --> 01:01:35.105
But in terms of a token
837
01:01:35.645 --> 01:01:36.465
that doesn't,
838
01:01:37.645 --> 01:01:41.905
attempt to oversell itself, doesn't have a presale, doesn't have,
839
01:01:43.290 --> 01:01:46.990
doesn't lie about trade offs, provides, like, an actual utility,
840
01:01:47.850 --> 01:01:49.230
that is that is needed.
841
01:01:50.015 --> 01:01:52.674
I mean, I don't think people can disagree that
842
01:01:53.055 --> 01:01:54.035
having a censorship
843
01:01:55.454 --> 01:01:59.714
resistant, p to p global exchange that doesn't have k y c,
844
01:02:00.320 --> 01:02:02.100
is important in today's age,
845
01:02:03.040 --> 01:02:05.520
can go fuck themselves. Like, obviously, it is important.
846
01:02:06.240 --> 01:02:07.940
Would you disagree with me there, Wiz?
847
01:02:08.515 --> 01:02:10.295
848
01:02:11.155 --> 01:02:15.974
BSQ is created is when you make a contribution to the BISC project and the community
849
01:02:16.600 --> 01:02:18.060
collectively approves your
850
01:02:18.440 --> 01:02:24.220
contribution, and then you can issue yourself a little bit of BSQ. You can color some of your own sats into the colored Bitcoin.
851
01:02:24.520 --> 01:02:25.800
That's BSQ. And,
852
01:02:26.214 --> 01:02:27.655
by all means, don't don't,
853
01:02:29.095 --> 01:02:29.994
don't use BSQ.
854
01:02:30.375 --> 01:02:32.555
Just if you're gonna use Bisq, just, you know,
855
01:02:33.310 --> 01:02:44.665
keep everything in Bitcoin. It's just an internal thing for the developers to kind of, because Bisk is a profitable business. Right? It's this is peer to peer exchange network, and every every time someone trades on the exchange,
856
01:02:46.484 --> 01:02:55.300
they, you know, basically make a donation to the Bisk DAO, and then from those funds, Bisk can kind of, buy the BSQ back from the contributors.
857
01:02:56.244 --> 01:03:02.744
And, that's how BISK contributors get paid directly from the community. So the BISK DAO also is community funded,
858
01:03:03.045 --> 01:03:05.065
just they have a much more advanced
859
01:03:06.080 --> 01:03:07.220
system, which is
860
01:03:07.680 --> 01:03:10.740
very innovative. I mean, they're they're probably the first, like, real,
861
01:03:12.000 --> 01:03:12.500
decentralized,
862
01:03:13.815 --> 01:03:19.994
you know, autonomous organization that that governs itself and everything. But it works because You mean a DAO?
863
01:03:20.855 --> 01:03:22.290
Yes. And, we We
864
01:03:22.990 --> 01:03:25.410
865
01:03:26.430 --> 01:03:29.015
866
01:03:29.414 --> 01:03:34.875
867
01:03:36.630 --> 01:03:39.450
Maybe Bisk is the 2nd real DAO, and,
868
01:03:40.630 --> 01:03:47.035
it's definitely the first real decentralized exchange. So we hear decentralized exchange all the time. Most of the time, it's bullshit.
869
01:03:47.735 --> 01:04:00.180
With Bisq, it is a real deal. And as Wiz said, I think that is an important thing to keep in mind is that there's no gatekeeping with this token, which you see a lot with shitcoins. Is it like, you can use Bisq and never you you don't even need to know the token exists.
870
01:04:02.115 --> 01:04:04.935
871
01:04:06.275 --> 01:04:15.170
the IRS knowing about it, Bisq is perfect. And as as you pointed out on Twitter the other day, or or actually someone I think someone tweeted at the Bisk account. They said,
872
01:04:15.790 --> 01:04:18.530
the price is a little bit higher on Bisk because
873
01:04:19.095 --> 01:04:22.475
all the other exchanges are giving you a discount for your,
874
01:04:23.495 --> 01:04:26.955
personal data and your KYC and your your transaction
875
01:04:27.255 --> 01:04:31.140
information and because they're gonna snitch on you to the government. Right? And so
876
01:04:31.520 --> 01:04:38.984
the the actual price of Bitcoin is a little bit higher. There's there's, like, a couple of percent premium on this because there's no KYC and only,
877
01:04:39.285 --> 01:04:41.944
you know, you your only your trading partner,
878
01:04:42.645 --> 01:04:44.984
would know your your details or whatever.
879
01:04:45.350 --> 01:04:47.110
880
01:04:47.670 --> 01:04:51.610
Wiz said the the new Matt Odell show. This is also the new 61 02 show.
881
01:04:51.990 --> 01:04:54.865
Part Part of the reason this format exists is because he's
882
01:04:55.165 --> 01:04:56.625
able to contribute live,
883
01:04:57.005 --> 01:05:04.359
via text and not dox his voice. The only time he ever dox his voice was on the Stefan Lavera podcast. So if you wanna go listen to his voice,
884
01:05:04.660 --> 01:05:09.505
go check out 6102 on Stefan Lavera. But he's saying right now that BSQ
885
01:05:10.285 --> 01:05:13.905
is is basically a donation multisig with flexible membership.
886
01:05:14.980 --> 01:05:21.355
And and if anyone knows 6102 like, if 6102 is defending your Sheit coin, then it probably isn't a Sheit coin.
887
01:05:22.315 --> 01:05:23.435
888
01:05:24.155 --> 01:05:27.775
just to just to kinda explain how the the projects are connected,
889
01:05:29.490 --> 01:05:30.530
which by the way,
890
01:05:31.010 --> 01:05:33.510
isn't 6102 your pseudonym or
891
01:05:33.890 --> 01:05:35.570
sorry. I didn't mean to dox you there. But,
892
01:05:36.210 --> 01:05:38.550
893
01:05:39.095 --> 01:05:44.775
894
01:05:45.335 --> 01:05:47.674
really cool collaborations that we did where,
895
01:05:48.300 --> 01:05:50.400
BISC didn't have a, really,
896
01:05:51.180 --> 01:05:55.180
you know, nice tool to view all the trades and everything. And so,
897
01:05:56.204 --> 01:05:59.665
that was the first, I guess, layer 2 network, if you wanna call it, BISK.
898
01:06:00.365 --> 01:06:09.250
We we added the so now you can view all the BISK trades and and transactions on our mempool space explorer. And so that was the first real community funding where
899
01:06:09.790 --> 01:06:20.535
one open source project funded another open source project. Right? The the Mentool project got some compensation from the BiskDAO, which I just thought was the most, you know, beautiful, pure,
900
01:06:21.400 --> 01:06:21.900
Bitcoin,
901
01:06:23.320 --> 01:06:31.664
you know, thing ever. And so, DAO, we're we're getting sponsored just directly by the community, which is is even is even cooler. Right? Are are you gonna,
902
01:06:32.204 --> 01:06:42.190
I guess if you don't have any sponsors for this show, man, are you gonna be taking, like, individual, I guess, Patreon or some some kind of sponsor program? Patreon, are you fucking kidding me?
903
01:06:43.690 --> 01:06:50.454
904
01:06:50.755 --> 01:06:51.494
you know,
905
01:06:51.954 --> 01:06:54.694
like, user users can can can, listeners
906
01:06:55.395 --> 01:06:56.055
can contribute.
907
01:06:56.390 --> 01:07:00.330
If they enjoy dispatch, they they I I love I appreciate
908
01:07:00.630 --> 01:07:02.570
any stats that you throw my way.
909
01:07:02.950 --> 01:07:05.690
I will huddle on to those stats. They will go to my grandkids,
910
01:07:06.015 --> 01:07:08.115
and you can hit that on stack stacksips.com.
911
01:07:10.415 --> 01:07:14.915
I have my links over there. And Citadel Dispatch also has the links, citadel dispatch.com.
912
01:07:15.470 --> 01:07:22.130
But I'm I'm just trying you know, let's be honest. Right? Like, why are we here? We're here to make fuck you money the standard, and
913
01:07:23.975 --> 01:07:28.795
what what's the point of fuck you money if you don't have a show where you can't just say whatever the fuck you wanna say?
914
01:07:29.895 --> 01:07:45.295
915
01:07:45.674 --> 01:08:05.180
Now it's like, this show is Citadel Dispatch, but in the future, it will literally be a dispatch from a real Bitcoin Citadel. I can feel the the energy from this show. Yeah. I'm gonna need you in, like, Quito to, like, help me with the networking and whatnot, and we'll just broadcast all the citadels globally. Dude, we'll do, like, a pirate radio show. We'll just broadcast over the airways.
916
01:08:08.840 --> 01:08:11.740
917
01:08:12.255 --> 01:08:13.795
mempool's bisque integration
918
01:08:14.095 --> 01:08:15.954
is is up on the screen share.
919
01:08:17.775 --> 01:08:19.475
920
01:08:20.540 --> 01:08:25.199
Simon could probably talk about more what we're working on for the, the Bisk dashboard. But,
921
01:08:26.380 --> 01:08:29.659
as a start, you know, you could just see all the trades and,
922
01:08:30.265 --> 01:08:35.565
kinda like the governance transactions of the DAO. So if you click on the filter, you can you can go to, like,
923
01:08:36.345 --> 01:08:39.965
you know, voting or or or different things. That's how they make decisions.
924
01:08:40.489 --> 01:08:40.989
But,
925
01:08:41.290 --> 01:08:43.310
yeah, this is the first really cool,
926
01:08:43.929 --> 01:08:46.989
integration we did. Simon, do you have you wanna talk about this?
927
01:08:48.655 --> 01:08:49.715
928
01:08:50.255 --> 01:08:51.475
said everything there.
929
01:08:52.415 --> 01:08:52.915
930
01:08:55.295 --> 01:08:56.515
931
01:08:58.810 --> 01:09:01.610
an old website for their explorers. So we,
932
01:09:02.170 --> 01:09:05.790
basically made a new one and integrated to mempool. And
933
01:09:06.525 --> 01:09:09.905
because the goal of the mempool project is what I is to
934
01:09:10.685 --> 01:09:20.790
make an ex have an explorer for the whole upper layer of the Bitcoin ecosystems. We wanna support everything, all the upper networks. Like, we support BISK, Liquid, Testnet, and
935
01:09:21.170 --> 01:09:23.190
we hopefully can add Lightning and
936
01:09:23.525 --> 01:09:25.145
some other in the future.
937
01:09:25.605 --> 01:09:28.105
938
01:09:28.645 --> 01:09:34.780
939
01:09:35.239 --> 01:09:35.719
is,
940
01:09:36.360 --> 01:09:49.645
it's like all corporations. It's like global corporations, and then it's just like Wiz. Like, there's there's just we we have, like, all these global Bitcoin focused corporations, and then Wiz is one of the federate federated, members.
941
01:09:50.260 --> 01:09:52.360
Yeah. So how the how the fuck does that happen?
942
01:09:53.140 --> 01:09:57.320
943
01:09:58.085 --> 01:10:00.405
so what company are you with again? You know? They've been,
944
01:10:01.284 --> 01:10:01.605
but,
945
01:10:02.804 --> 01:10:05.065
I'd I'd I'd like to think that I,
946
01:10:06.560 --> 01:10:09.380
you know, am just an individual Bitcoiner,
947
01:10:10.560 --> 01:10:11.300
you know,
948
01:10:12.719 --> 01:10:14.179
participating in this federation.
949
01:10:14.735 --> 01:10:16.675
I I really feel there aren't enough cypherpunks
950
01:10:17.375 --> 01:10:18.035
in this,
951
01:10:18.895 --> 01:10:23.010
I mean, it's, like okay. So first of all, it's a layer 2 network. Right?
952
01:10:24.050 --> 01:10:27.510
If fees if you wanna if you wanna do small transactions,
953
01:10:28.210 --> 01:10:31.989
if you wanna do lots of transaction if you wanna do confidential transactions even, they have
954
01:10:32.975 --> 01:10:35.135
a little bit of base layer privacy in the,
955
01:10:35.855 --> 01:10:40.114
the element side chain project, which Liquid is a specific instance of.
956
01:10:41.800 --> 01:10:46.140
It's a great layer 2 network that has a real blockchain. Right? Because if you wanna do Lightning,
957
01:10:46.760 --> 01:10:52.155
for coffee, it's great. But if you wanna do lightning for large amounts of of funds,
958
01:10:52.935 --> 01:10:53.435
you
959
01:10:54.375 --> 01:10:56.795
you need, like, something like liquid where it's
960
01:10:57.740 --> 01:11:05.120
on an actual blockchain and you don't have to worry about routing issues or capacity issues. And, of course, the trade off for all that is the
961
01:11:06.435 --> 01:11:09.655
security model, which is kind of like this very complicated,
962
01:11:10.114 --> 01:11:12.135
11 of 15 multi sig,
963
01:11:13.074 --> 01:11:13.895
where it's
964
01:11:14.290 --> 01:11:17.510
kind of like this, it's a federation. Right? It's this collective
965
01:11:18.130 --> 01:11:21.030
custodial model where the federation collectively,
966
01:11:21.755 --> 01:11:24.815
you can peg in Bitcoin into the liquid network,
967
01:11:25.195 --> 01:11:29.135
do your transactions, and then when you're done, peg out back into
968
01:11:29.470 --> 01:11:34.210
969
01:11:34.990 --> 01:11:37.410
there's this trade off balance, right, where you have
970
01:11:38.865 --> 01:11:39.845
censorship resistance,
971
01:11:40.305 --> 01:11:40.805
distribution,
972
01:11:42.225 --> 01:11:43.205
you know, decentralization
973
01:11:44.145 --> 01:11:46.165
versus transaction cost.
974
01:11:47.070 --> 01:11:47.570
And
975
01:11:48.030 --> 01:11:54.770
and and, basically, what Liquid is saying is Liquid is saying, maybe we don't have to be as censorship resistant.
976
01:11:55.185 --> 01:11:56.804
Maybe we don't have to be as distributed.
977
01:11:57.185 --> 01:12:02.165
We could be a little bit centralized, and as a result, we can be faster and cheaper.
978
01:12:02.630 --> 01:12:04.650
Right? Is that, like, the the basic,
979
01:12:05.030 --> 01:12:05.530
show?
980
01:12:06.310 --> 01:12:15.135
981
01:12:15.594 --> 01:12:19.135
that the Bitcoin blockchain provides, they go right ahead
982
01:12:19.679 --> 01:12:23.539
and pay the Onchain fees to use Bitcoin directly. But
983
01:12:24.079 --> 01:12:29.655
if you're going to, if you if you wanna use layer 2 side chain like Liquid
984
01:12:30.195 --> 01:12:32.535
and, you know, you often do transactions
985
01:12:33.475 --> 01:12:34.330
between various
986
01:12:35.130 --> 01:12:40.830
exchanges or whatever other members of the that are in the Liquid Federation or even between individuals.
987
01:12:42.225 --> 01:12:44.625
If you just wanna settle on a thing, it's a great layer to,
988
01:12:45.585 --> 01:12:45.825
block
989
01:12:47.345 --> 01:12:50.805
990
01:12:53.210 --> 01:12:57.790
I go back and forth on liquid, and, the freaks have witnessed this
991
01:12:58.975 --> 01:12:59.475
themselves.
992
01:13:00.735 --> 01:13:01.235
I
993
01:13:02.815 --> 01:13:06.114
the I saw it right now. I have Biscup. Right? I have Biscup,
994
01:13:07.040 --> 01:13:08.980
the Liquid Explorer for Bisc,
995
01:13:09.360 --> 01:13:13.460
for the most recent block of liquid, and it has 2 transactions.
996
01:13:13.760 --> 01:13:20.735
Really, it has one transaction because the one of the transactions is the Coinbase transaction, and there's always a Coinbase transaction
997
01:13:21.035 --> 01:13:22.015
every block.
998
01:13:22.875 --> 01:13:23.695
You know,
999
01:13:31.105 --> 01:13:40.165
610 2 is still here. He gave you the pass on on Bisk being a shitcoin, but he he does not give you a pass on LVTC being a shitcoin, if anyone knows 6102.
1000
01:13:41.640 --> 01:13:42.140
Why
1001
01:13:42.600 --> 01:13:43.820
have we not seen,
1002
01:13:45.160 --> 01:13:49.660
you know, do are we gonna like, when fees go up, are we gonna see more people use
1003
01:13:50.015 --> 01:13:57.235
liquid? Like, there no one is using it right now. And and and one of the key selling points of liquid is this confidential transactions
1004
01:13:57.930 --> 01:13:59.950
where the the amount is blinded,
1005
01:14:00.570 --> 01:14:02.670
that you're sending. So if I send you,
1006
01:14:03.290 --> 01:14:12.145
a 1,000,000 sats on liquid, you can't tell that I sent the 1,000,000 sats. You can you can still see I sent from address to address like you can with Bitcoin, but you can't see the amount.
1007
01:14:13.405 --> 01:14:16.930
That benefit is reduced if no one is fucking using it. I mean,
1008
01:14:17.650 --> 01:14:20.870
like, some of the like, people use Dogecoin more than this shit.
1009
01:14:22.130 --> 01:14:30.295
1010
01:14:30.675 --> 01:14:35.415
1011
01:14:35.980 --> 01:14:39.120
1012
01:14:39.660 --> 01:14:41.440
were built for Bitcoin. Like,
1013
01:14:41.900 --> 01:14:45.120
you know, 3 years ago, you never cared about the mempool
1014
01:14:45.965 --> 01:14:51.265
because it was always empty and always cleared out every block. Now when the fees are getting expensive,
1015
01:14:51.725 --> 01:14:52.864
now this creates
1016
01:14:53.380 --> 01:14:54.120
a reason
1017
01:14:54.740 --> 01:14:57.080
why you use liquid. So as you mentioned before,
1018
01:14:57.620 --> 01:15:03.105
when, in the bear market, that's when you build things. Right? And, you know, Liquid was built
1019
01:15:03.645 --> 01:15:05.665
by very, very smart people at Blockstream
1020
01:15:06.685 --> 01:15:16.760
who, you know, came up with this side chain technology, and they they put all these really cool features into it. And they launched it with they got all these, members on board so you can interact with all these exchanges.
1021
01:15:17.205 --> 01:15:25.864
And now, finally, as we've seen in the past two and a half months when the mempool doesn't clear anymore and transactions are starting to get very expensive,
1022
01:15:26.449 --> 01:15:27.989
Now there's an actual,
1023
01:15:28.610 --> 01:15:37.095
use case for layer 2 networks. Right? I mean, how many lightning transactions did you do last year? Maybe, you know, maybe you're I did a lot more than my liquid transactions.
1024
01:15:38.115 --> 01:15:43.095
Sure. And and like I said, if if you wanna if you wanna send money in between,
1025
01:15:44.250 --> 01:15:48.270
there's there's different use cases for lightning and there's different use cases for liquid.
1026
01:15:48.970 --> 01:15:56.094
And if you wanna buy a coffee at the bar, sure. Use liquid. If you wanna send, you know, a $100 between exchanges
1027
01:15:56.395 --> 01:15:59.055
and have a 1 minute confirmation time and
1028
01:15:59.435 --> 01:16:07.969
confidential transactions, then liquid is the better use case. Right? And it's you you gotta use the right tool for the job. You meant lightning. You meant lightning for the first one. Right?
1029
01:16:08.349 --> 01:16:19.295
Yeah. Sorry. So so you gotta use the right tool for the job. Right? It's it's not about, like, Liquid is the the tool for everyone for all use cases or Lightning is the tool for all use cases. It's,
1030
01:16:20.015 --> 01:16:26.690
sometimes it makes sense to do an on chain transaction. Sometimes it makes sense to use Lightning. Sometimes it makes sense to use Liquid.
1031
01:16:27.310 --> 01:16:34.065
Sometimes it makes sense to trade on disk. Sometimes it makes sense to trade on a centralized exchange. You know, there's Which there's pros.
1032
01:16:35.005 --> 01:16:38.385
1033
01:16:39.245 --> 01:16:42.440
You've always have been, and I I appreciate that consistency.
1034
01:16:42.820 --> 01:16:43.320
Simon,
1035
01:16:43.780 --> 01:16:51.765
where do you stand here? What do you what do you think? Do you think there's a place for liquid? Do do you think in this fee environment, we're gonna see liquid transactions go up? Do you think, like
1036
01:16:52.405 --> 01:17:04.500
it's like one of the big things for me that has been sold heavily is this idea that that liquid is is useful for traders going between exchanges. But, I mean, I think that use case probably gets handled better by
1037
01:17:05.120 --> 01:17:10.695
by private channels, like, big private lightning channels between these exchanges. They already have a relationship.
1038
01:17:11.395 --> 01:17:14.135
1039
01:17:14.595 --> 01:17:20.550
So as soon as we get this jumbo, wumbo channels between exchanges, I think liquid
1040
01:17:21.270 --> 01:17:27.335
there's no use for liquid anymore really. But I don't know. There might be a use case to today.
1041
01:17:27.795 --> 01:17:30.515
I'm not that into liquid, how it works and all, but,
1042
01:17:31.715 --> 01:17:33.735
if it's marketed as this exchange,
1043
01:17:34.290 --> 01:17:40.230
1044
01:17:41.090 --> 01:17:41.590
1045
01:17:42.065 --> 01:17:46.804
1046
01:17:47.105 --> 01:17:48.645
saying it publicly on air,
1047
01:17:49.425 --> 01:17:50.645
which is what I've learned.
1048
01:17:51.370 --> 01:17:53.310
This is another key of open source development.
1049
01:17:54.650 --> 01:17:58.030
If if if I think they should focus on privacy.
1050
01:17:59.755 --> 01:18:02.015
I think there's a use case for Liquid
1051
01:18:02.555 --> 01:18:06.175
in terms of confidential transactions. Like, people don't realize, like, you can,
1052
01:18:08.739 --> 01:18:09.239
like
1053
01:18:09.780 --> 01:18:12.360
like, Samson Mao has, like, his shit token,
1054
01:18:13.219 --> 01:18:13.619
with,
1055
01:18:14.980 --> 01:18:16.840
Infinite Fleet, his game. Right?
1056
01:18:17.395 --> 01:18:20.295
I can coin join with the assets in his game
1057
01:18:20.595 --> 01:18:21.095
because
1058
01:18:21.475 --> 01:18:21.975
confidential,
1059
01:18:22.995 --> 01:18:23.495
transactions
1060
01:18:23.955 --> 01:18:33.370
and confidential assets, which they have on liquid, mean that you can't tell that I'm just coin joining with a random amount of sats, and he's coin joining with some random bullshit,
1061
01:18:34.949 --> 01:18:35.449
space
1062
01:18:36.905 --> 01:18:46.125
space plane in his game. Right? And I can coin join between those two things. So so so there's a lot of there's a lot of value there. There could be a lot of value there,
1063
01:18:46.900 --> 01:18:55.880
for the average user in terms of they don't have to have an online hot wallet all the time. They don't have to have they they they can get they can get easier privacy,
1064
01:18:56.405 --> 01:19:17.005
but they do have this custodial risk. They have this additional custodial risk. I almost think this whole idea that the traders are gonna use liquid is completely wrong. They, like, complete I think they missed the boat on that. I think maybe in the beginning that would have been the case, but we didn't have the fee pressure, so they just used on chain. And now they're just gonna use traders are just gonna use Lightning private channels. They're not even gonna because because the exchanges
1065
01:19:17.385 --> 01:19:20.699
if I'm if I'm Kraken and I have a relationship with Gemini,
1066
01:19:21.320 --> 01:19:22.940
like, I'm gonna have, like, a fucking,
1067
01:19:23.800 --> 01:19:25.500
you know, $1,000,000, $2,000,000,
1068
01:19:25.880 --> 01:19:26.380
$3,000,000
1069
01:19:26.760 --> 01:19:33.875
channel, private channel with them, and we're gonna settle that all the time between each other, and and we'll be fine with that.
1070
01:19:34.255 --> 01:19:45.560
There's no need for me to involve this federation of corporations that I don't wanna deal with. Like, they're like, why would I even fucking do that? Yeah. Well, that that's a good analogy. See this
1071
01:19:46.805 --> 01:19:49.945
1072
01:19:50.245 --> 01:19:55.545
But what I do like about liquid is filling this gap and killing out killing all the altcoins.
1073
01:19:55.970 --> 01:20:06.645
The narrative Right. It's all. Like, why use because if you if you look at, if you go to the website of use d Tether, they have issued their token of all of token of all these change like Tron.
1074
01:20:07.905 --> 01:20:14.565
1075
01:20:14.960 --> 01:20:18.660
1076
01:20:19.360 --> 01:20:20.500
stable coin transactions
1077
01:20:20.800 --> 01:20:24.695
on Liquid, for example, which is a very centralized but super speedy
1078
01:20:25.235 --> 01:20:27.574
blockchain instead of this slow and expensive
1079
01:20:27.875 --> 01:20:35.829
Ethereum blockchain, which is centralized anyway. So it's just total waste. And the whole issuance of leak and these stable coins are also very
1080
01:20:36.849 --> 01:20:41.414
centralized. They are dependent on these oracles that keep the peg and stuff. So,
1081
01:20:42.835 --> 01:20:46.755
if so that's one big use case I see for liquid is,
1082
01:20:47.235 --> 01:20:54.520
killing the narratives of the old coins. If you're gonna use something centralized anyway, why not use the liquid on Bitcoin so we
1083
01:20:54.820 --> 01:20:56.600
build everything on top of Bitcoin?
1084
01:20:59.435 --> 01:21:03.535
1085
01:21:04.875 --> 01:21:05.375
Liquid
1086
01:21:05.860 --> 01:21:07.480
has a lot of the functionality
1087
01:21:07.860 --> 01:21:08.360
of
1088
01:21:08.660 --> 01:21:09.480
all of these,
1089
01:21:10.340 --> 01:21:12.440
you know, other Shitcoin projects
1090
01:21:12.980 --> 01:21:13.480
without
1091
01:21:13.780 --> 01:21:20.585
a Shitcoin. Right? So because Liquid uses Bitcoin as its native token and doesn't have its own native Shitcoin,
1092
01:21:22.085 --> 01:21:26.080
plus having all these confidential transactions, confidential assets,
1093
01:21:27.580 --> 01:21:30.245
1 minute block, all these cool things, it
1094
01:21:30.725 --> 01:21:38.265
it just destroys the, the justification for 99% of all the other, shit coins out there, which is good in itself. But,
1095
01:21:38.930 --> 01:21:48.310
Matt, to answer your question of, like, what's a what's a real use case for liquid? Well, to be honest, the reason I was very interested in liquid at first was because of bisque.
1096
01:21:49.155 --> 01:21:53.895
Currently, every BISK trade is for on chain Bitcoin transactions,
1097
01:21:54.435 --> 01:21:57.969
which until very recently weren't even Segwit. So it's very,
1098
01:21:58.670 --> 01:21:59.570
just unoptimized.
1099
01:22:00.269 --> 01:22:01.730
And now with the fees rising,
1100
01:22:02.429 --> 01:22:04.449
bisque trades become extremely expensive,
1101
01:22:05.005 --> 01:22:07.425
simply for the on chain mining fees. And so
1102
01:22:07.805 --> 01:22:09.505
it makes a lot of sense
1103
01:22:09.885 --> 01:22:11.025
for this to,
1104
01:22:12.570 --> 01:22:14.830
you know, add an option to optionally
1105
01:22:15.450 --> 01:22:18.510
use Liquid's blockchain and use LBTC,
1106
01:22:19.850 --> 01:22:23.305
if the users want it. Because a big use case of,
1107
01:22:23.765 --> 01:22:26.345
BISC is, like, I think just buy, like, a $100,
1108
01:22:26.885 --> 01:22:27.385
Bitcoin
1109
01:22:27.765 --> 01:22:31.910
stacking sats without the government knowing about it. Well, if your on chain fees are $20,
1110
01:22:32.530 --> 01:22:33.350
you're not gonna
1111
01:22:33.810 --> 01:22:36.550
you know, it's essentially 20% fee
1112
01:22:36.885 --> 01:22:41.385
to stack a $100. It totally prices out that use case. And so
1113
01:22:42.245 --> 01:22:44.745
you can't do a biz trade on a lightning channel
1114
01:22:45.159 --> 01:22:48.540
for a lot of, technical reasons. Basically, you need a real blockchain.
1115
01:22:48.920 --> 01:22:54.935
Right? If there's any kind of trade dispute, you need to be able to show to the bisque mediator that, you know, here's a TXID
1116
01:22:55.554 --> 01:22:59.494
link on the MIMPL space explorer. Here's where I sent the money. Okay.
1117
01:22:59.955 --> 01:23:02.695
I you know, that and that keeps everyone honest.
1118
01:23:03.190 --> 01:23:06.730
And so it makes a lot of sense for Bisk to support
1119
01:23:07.350 --> 01:23:08.969
a layer to side chain
1120
01:23:09.270 --> 01:23:10.090
like liquid.
1121
01:23:11.094 --> 01:23:14.155
If not liquid, maybe No. You know, its own instance.
1122
01:23:14.535 --> 01:23:20.340
1123
01:23:20.900 --> 01:23:21.800
for bisque.
1124
01:23:23.460 --> 01:23:29.875
Why haven't you guys integrated it? Like, you're you're you're pretty you're pretty major on both on both sides. I mean, you have LBTC
1125
01:23:30.655 --> 01:23:32.035
enabled in Bisc now.
1126
01:23:33.020 --> 01:23:41.775
Well, it Why not why not why not Tether? Why don't you have the stable, you know, the stable coins on on liquid integrated into Bisq? It seems like a perfect
1127
01:23:43.054 --> 01:23:44.675
1128
01:23:45.215 --> 01:23:48.895
you know, there's only 24 hours in the day. I mean, Biscuit is essentially
1129
01:23:50.975 --> 01:23:51.475
yeah.
1130
01:23:52.230 --> 01:23:53.690
You know, there's only,
1131
01:23:54.390 --> 01:23:57.449
what, 5 or 6 guys that work full time on DISC.
1132
01:23:58.070 --> 01:24:00.870
There's only 2 guys that work full time on Memphol. It's,
1133
01:24:01.704 --> 01:24:08.525
there were some higher priority things. Like, simply adding Segway into this took years. Right? And that, was very difficult,
1134
01:24:08.900 --> 01:24:15.800
and I had to coordinate a lot of thing. But but we got it done, and we just shipped SegWiz. So, you know, now that the fees are rising,
1135
01:24:16.975 --> 01:24:17.715
the urgency
1136
01:24:18.095 --> 01:24:21.315
to implement liquid of course, I proposed it over a year ago,
1137
01:24:21.855 --> 01:24:29.289
but we just haven't gotten around to it because of the lack of developer resources and also because the fees didn't get so expensive until
1138
01:24:29.590 --> 01:24:31.690
very recently in the past couple months. So
1139
01:24:32.915 --> 01:24:36.775
a layer 2 solution is absolutely needed for bisque. And,
1140
01:24:37.395 --> 01:24:39.015
there there's also another proposal,
1141
01:24:39.555 --> 01:24:40.435
very very,
1142
01:24:40.995 --> 01:24:41.495
technical
1143
01:24:41.950 --> 01:24:43.330
using bonds and whatnot.
1144
01:24:43.710 --> 01:24:46.290
But I feel that liquid be would be the,
1145
01:24:46.989 --> 01:24:51.650
1146
01:24:52.065 --> 01:24:52.565
and
1147
01:24:53.025 --> 01:24:57.925
the token layer for Bitcoin makes sense to me. And and I've said in the past that that,
1148
01:24:58.920 --> 01:25:03.980
that that that Liquid is basically Ripple without the shit coin. It's a little unfair to Liquid,
1149
01:25:04.440 --> 01:25:05.740
because it it is
1150
01:25:06.235 --> 01:25:09.295
it is a way cleaner code base than, Ripple.
1151
01:25:10.875 --> 01:25:18.070
But but but for the average user, I think that's, like, a relatively good way of looking at it. It's like this idea that you basically traded off centralization.
1152
01:25:20.825 --> 01:25:24.445
You you're you're accepting some level of centralization for cheaper
1153
01:25:24.905 --> 01:25:26.845
cheaper transactions and faster transactions.
1154
01:25:28.520 --> 01:25:30.780
The token idea makes sense to me.
1155
01:25:31.320 --> 01:25:37.025
Basically, though, the only two things that make sense is, like, a a fiat token, which is just a stopgap,
1156
01:25:37.885 --> 01:25:39.825
and, like, illegal securities.
1157
01:25:41.565 --> 01:25:46.250
Illegal secure I mean, I'm not gonna fall into that trap, but unregistered securities,
1158
01:25:46.630 --> 01:25:50.330
which is, you know, where the best token falls in, and that kinda makes sense to me.
1159
01:25:50.869 --> 01:25:59.365
It's just weird. Like, I know the lightning guys are trying to make that a thing as well on lightning. I don't you know, I'm not that bullish on that. So so I I see that happening,
1160
01:25:59.680 --> 01:26:03.460
and I also see this idea that it's kind of cool that you can, like, coin join between
1161
01:26:04.640 --> 01:26:21.850
like, you can have BSQ on liquid. You can have Tether on liquid. You can have infinite fleets, spaceship on liquid, and you can have SATS on liquid, and you can coinjoin them all together, and no one could tell which is which. Is it it seems pretty powerful, and I'm surprised no one's working on it. They should they should focus on that.
1162
01:26:22.790 --> 01:26:27.935
To the to the viewers who are watching, we, you know, have made a big point on Citadel Dispatch
1163
01:26:28.475 --> 01:26:32.255
to always show the best price. So the best price is currently trading at $52,195,
1164
01:26:35.260 --> 01:26:39.920
and the evil empire Coinbase is on the top, and they're trading at $49,000
1165
01:26:40.780 --> 01:26:41.425
right now.
1166
01:26:43.425 --> 01:26:45.844
So just just as just as an update.
1167
01:26:47.264 --> 01:26:51.364
So I like to pivot this conversation a little bit. I'm really enjoying it.
1168
01:26:52.050 --> 01:26:55.350
One of the things that I've I've I tried to
1169
01:26:56.050 --> 01:27:01.395
flex because I just enjoy it. I mean, what what what's the point of all of this if we don't have a good time?
1170
01:27:03.075 --> 01:27:05.575
I want I have you guys both on
1171
01:27:05.955 --> 01:27:08.695
my show. I want I want to have you on the record.
1172
01:27:09.020 --> 01:27:11.760
Do you think Bitcoin is designed to pump forever?
1173
01:27:12.300 --> 01:27:14.080
And I want to have Simon
1174
01:27:14.540 --> 01:27:15.600
answer this first.
1175
01:27:16.355 --> 01:27:17.335
1176
01:27:18.355 --> 01:27:19.095
No doubt.
1177
01:27:21.555 --> 01:27:22.455
What's the question?
1178
01:27:23.290 --> 01:27:25.949
1179
01:27:27.449 --> 01:27:28.350
Yeah. Yeah?
1180
01:27:29.050 --> 01:27:32.895
1181
01:27:33.275 --> 01:27:36.175
appreciate about at the same pace as the,
1182
01:27:38.315 --> 01:27:39.615
economic growth, basically.
1183
01:27:39.960 --> 01:27:41.480
So all the values of
1184
01:27:42.199 --> 01:27:44.300
all the products and services is gonna
1185
01:27:44.679 --> 01:27:44.920
be,
1186
01:27:45.880 --> 01:27:49.260
measured in Bitcoin, be about maybe 2% cheaper every year.
1187
01:27:52.914 --> 01:27:53.655
1188
01:27:54.275 --> 01:27:59.890
That that that is what is gonna happen. And I think it Wizz, are you on on board with us on this?
1189
01:28:00.510 --> 01:28:02.930
1190
01:28:03.550 --> 01:28:05.410
you can learn a lot of things about,
1191
01:28:05.870 --> 01:28:06.245
the history of
1192
01:28:15.540 --> 01:28:18.679
to the hardest store of value. And so,
1193
01:28:19.300 --> 01:28:20.440
obviously, there's,
1194
01:28:20.820 --> 01:28:21.880
you know, an infinite
1195
01:28:22.260 --> 01:28:23.719
supply of fiat money.
1196
01:28:24.715 --> 01:28:28.415
You can print out as an infinite amount of US dollars. So
1197
01:28:28.795 --> 01:28:36.840
if if you consider, quote, unquote, pump, what does pump mean? If you you mean the price of Bitcoin measurement fiat money? Yeah. I mean, I'm being provocative.
1198
01:28:37.220 --> 01:28:44.685
1199
01:28:45.245 --> 01:28:46.225
Anthony Scaramucci,
1200
01:28:48.820 --> 01:28:56.679
And I intentionally knew he was provocative, so I asked him this question. And he he, like, called me out. He was like, well, that's a very provocative word choice you used.
1201
01:28:57.055 --> 01:29:01.235
But, like, that's the point. Right? Yeah. I I think it'll increase in purchasing power forever.
1202
01:29:03.135 --> 01:29:06.195
1203
01:29:07.099 --> 01:29:11.360
And if you look, you know, in the history of of hard money, you know,
1204
01:29:12.300 --> 01:29:13.520
all the the value,
1205
01:29:14.300 --> 01:29:21.385
gets soaked up into this hard money. So, yeah, it it does increase in in its purchasing power over time,
1206
01:29:22.380 --> 01:29:26.400
until something better comes along, which I don't understand how you could have something,
1207
01:29:27.660 --> 01:29:31.005
better than Bitcoin. But but, yeah, I mean, of course, it's gonna pump forever.
1208
01:29:32.605 --> 01:29:34.205
If you if you study any,
1209
01:29:34.685 --> 01:29:35.905
economics or anything,
1210
01:29:36.925 --> 01:29:43.350
this is the new hardest form of money. It's gonna be harder than gold. And and once the, you know, the 21,000,000
1211
01:29:43.890 --> 01:29:49.675
cap is is hit, the stock to flow ratio is basically infinite. So what's harder than that?
1212
01:29:51.255 --> 01:29:53.114
1213
01:29:54.215 --> 01:29:59.080
now that we have this ledger, right, now that we have this global ledger that is agreed upon,
1214
01:30:00.580 --> 01:30:02.199
even in some kind of
1215
01:30:05.535 --> 01:30:06.035
theoretical
1216
01:30:06.415 --> 01:30:12.915
amazing new technology comes out to replace Bitcoin as the best money, it would still use,
1217
01:30:14.410 --> 01:30:17.310
the, you know, the tip of our ledger
1218
01:30:17.930 --> 01:30:23.230
as the consensus point to launch their own ledger. Otherwise, it wouldn't be taken seriously.
1219
01:30:23.535 --> 01:30:24.035
Right?
1220
01:30:25.455 --> 01:30:28.035
1221
01:30:28.415 --> 01:30:32.594
or or something, they're still settled in gold coins or gold bars.
1222
01:30:33.060 --> 01:30:34.520
It'll it'll be the new,
1223
01:30:35.300 --> 01:30:35.800
default
1224
01:30:36.340 --> 01:30:37.960
way to settle any transaction.
1225
01:30:41.345 --> 01:30:47.045
1226
01:30:47.825 --> 01:30:50.005
But it I think it's important for
1227
01:30:50.330 --> 01:30:54.350
our grandkids that we have us all on the record saying so. So
1228
01:30:54.890 --> 01:30:58.590
I I will continue I will continue I will continue asking that question,
1229
01:30:59.185 --> 01:31:00.405
because I think it's important.
1230
01:31:01.345 --> 01:31:01.845
Freaks,
1231
01:31:02.385 --> 01:31:05.285
like, feel free to throw questions into
1232
01:31:05.880 --> 01:31:09.500
the chat. We you know, no questions are off off limits,
1233
01:31:09.960 --> 01:31:11.900
and we're happy to answer them.
1234
01:31:13.965 --> 01:31:16.304
The next thing I have for you guys is,
1235
01:31:16.605 --> 01:31:21.025
Simon, we'll start with you again because you've been quiet, and I wanna hear from you.
1236
01:31:23.100 --> 01:31:29.075
Is it possible for the US government to kill Bitcoin? And if the US government were to kill Bitcoin, how would they do it?
1237
01:31:32.275 --> 01:31:32.775
1238
01:31:33.155 --> 01:31:40.360
nothing can really kill Bitcoin. They could hurt Bitcoin a lot. They could hurt the price a lot if the impose a global ban.
1239
01:31:41.380 --> 01:31:42.440
If they could
1240
01:31:43.060 --> 01:31:45.880
print a lot of fiat, they could buy up a lot of
1241
01:31:46.315 --> 01:31:49.135
miners and start trying to make a 51%
1242
01:31:49.515 --> 01:31:53.775
attack. So there's a lot of theoretical attacks that they could do.
1243
01:31:54.875 --> 01:31:55.375
But
1244
01:31:56.080 --> 01:32:01.380
they would never be able to kill the network, I I don't think. As long as there's, like, one node somewhere keeping
1245
01:32:01.680 --> 01:32:02.340
the blockchain
1246
01:32:02.880 --> 01:32:05.460
and there's at least some a few miners somewhere,
1247
01:32:05.825 --> 01:32:08.645
it's gonna just stay alive and kicking. And
1248
01:32:09.345 --> 01:32:10.785
then eventually, it's just gonna
1249
01:32:11.665 --> 01:32:15.205
the US government's gonna give up, and it's gonna it's gonna win.
1250
01:32:19.130 --> 01:32:20.510
What was the second question?
1251
01:32:21.210 --> 01:32:24.590
1252
01:32:24.975 --> 01:32:28.035
Yeah. I mean, I I really appreciate the insight. Wiz,
1253
01:32:28.655 --> 01:32:39.260
US government It's killing Bitcoin. I and and the reason I ask just to be clear, I'm not being American centric. I think that the US government is the most sophisticated actor that might wanna kill Bitcoin. So, like, we should assume,
1254
01:32:40.440 --> 01:32:44.445
the most sophisticated attack. Right? We should assume that we shouldn't assume,
1255
01:32:45.625 --> 01:32:56.790
you know, some random schmuck wants to destroy Bitcoin. We should assume that the most sophisticated attacker on the planet is gonna do it. So if you don't want it to be the US government, it could be the Chinese government, you know, I guess, like, someone there. Right?
1256
01:32:57.810 --> 01:33:06.915
1257
01:33:07.455 --> 01:33:08.435
the word Bitcoin.
1258
01:33:08.820 --> 01:33:16.600
Right? What exact what exactly is Bitcoin, and what exactly does it mean to kill it? And I'll give you I'll give you an
1259
01:33:17.140 --> 01:33:17.640
analogy.
1260
01:33:18.665 --> 01:33:21.245
How would the US government kill the Internet?
1261
01:33:21.705 --> 01:33:22.205
Well,
1262
01:33:23.065 --> 01:33:23.965
if I
1263
01:33:24.425 --> 01:33:30.920
run a Ethernet cable from my Wi Fi router to your Wi Fi router and we exchange routes, we are Internetworking.
1264
01:33:31.380 --> 01:33:34.280
And so, therefore, we have our own Internet.
1265
01:33:34.660 --> 01:33:36.760
It's not the global Internet, but,
1266
01:33:37.324 --> 01:33:46.560
you can partition the network. Does that mean you kill the Internet if the if you split it in 2? Well, not really. You know? It's just, like, separate. So,
1267
01:33:47.580 --> 01:33:49.040
how would you kill Bitcoin?
1268
01:33:49.740 --> 01:33:54.305
I mean, as Simon just said, as long as there's one node and one miner running,
1269
01:33:55.165 --> 01:33:57.425
Bitcoin still exists. And,
1270
01:33:58.850 --> 01:34:04.070
you know, you it's kind of immortal in that sense, in that the sense that, Bitcoin is just this idea
1271
01:34:04.530 --> 01:34:05.350
of a system,
1272
01:34:05.810 --> 01:34:08.245
just like the Internet. It's just a it's just a conceptual,
1273
01:34:09.825 --> 01:34:10.325
idea.
1274
01:34:11.025 --> 01:34:11.525
And,
1275
01:34:12.465 --> 01:34:12.965
anytime
1276
01:34:13.585 --> 01:34:14.885
2 computers exchange,
1277
01:34:15.340 --> 01:34:19.120
you know, data, you could call that Internetworking. So, you know, what's,
1278
01:34:20.620 --> 01:34:26.085
what does it mean to kill Bitcoin? Even if there was some 0 day exploit in the code,
1279
01:34:26.865 --> 01:34:30.565
some where they could inflate the supply, we would just you know,
1280
01:34:30.950 --> 01:34:44.265
the community would get together and say, yeah. As of this block, the you know, the supply was correct, so we'll just fork off from that point. And, you know, we have smart people who can fix it. If they try to do denial of service attacks,
1281
01:34:45.364 --> 01:34:48.344
you know, we we would respond. I mean, basically,
1282
01:34:50.199 --> 01:34:52.460
yes, the US government is very strong,
1283
01:34:52.840 --> 01:34:53.340
actor,
1284
01:34:53.800 --> 01:34:57.420
but all the rest of the entire Bitcoin community is arguably
1285
01:34:57.785 --> 01:34:59.085
stronger as a collective,
1286
01:34:59.705 --> 01:35:04.364
force. And this is visible, like, when you when you talk about, well, can the US government shut down the Internet?
1287
01:35:04.720 --> 01:35:10.180
Maybe in the very early days, they could have, but not anymore. Now the Internet is this global thing
1288
01:35:10.560 --> 01:35:10.800
that,
1289
01:35:12.285 --> 01:35:18.305
you know, is arguably bigger than the US. Right? And, now the majority of the the Internet
1290
01:35:18.845 --> 01:35:24.760
services like Google or or, you know, Amazon, all the big, Silicon Valley guys are there.
1291
01:35:25.140 --> 01:35:36.205
But, you know, look at the the China's Internet. Right? China's Internet is not. It has, like, a very limited connectivity to the global Internet. Right? So did China kill the Internet?
1292
01:35:36.585 --> 01:35:39.199
Well, not completely. They just kind of,
1293
01:35:39.920 --> 01:35:42.820
filtered off a bunch of it and they made their own intranet,
1294
01:35:43.679 --> 01:35:49.405
so to speak. Right? So, like, when you look at how a nation's what a nation state might do to kill Bitcoin,
1295
01:35:50.505 --> 01:35:51.725
that's that's a very,
1296
01:35:52.665 --> 01:35:55.280
vague thing. They might try and, you
1297
01:35:56.300 --> 01:35:58.239
know, tweak it to their,
1298
01:35:59.020 --> 01:36:01.039
agenda. Right? Like, for example,
1299
01:36:01.980 --> 01:36:02.719
they might
1300
01:36:03.375 --> 01:36:10.595
issue their own central bank digital currencies that are backed by Bitcoin that they control, that they can do mass surveillance on.
1301
01:36:11.260 --> 01:36:12.640
Is that killing Bitcoin?
1302
01:36:13.340 --> 01:36:22.175
You know, there there's a lot of, open ended questions. There's a lot of directions they could go in to try and control it. But at the end of the day, it's really about controlling the people
1303
01:36:22.475 --> 01:36:23.295
and controlling,
1304
01:36:24.235 --> 01:36:25.534
the freedom of information
1305
01:36:25.915 --> 01:36:31.880
and the privacy of information. And as long as we have the Internet, I don't feel that's possible because
1306
01:36:32.260 --> 01:36:33.160
we can always
1307
01:36:33.620 --> 01:36:40.005
encrypt data between each other. We can always, you know, have our Raspberry Pis form a peer to peer network over Tor or other,
1308
01:36:40.385 --> 01:36:45.350
you know, upper layer peer to peer networks that are secure. So there's a lot of,
1309
01:36:45.910 --> 01:36:53.035
tools that the cypherpunks have, and the cypherpunks always win at the end of the day. Right? I I can't really see any nation state,
1310
01:36:53.915 --> 01:36:58.575
quote, unquote, killing Bitcoin just like I can't see any nation state killing the Internet.
1311
01:37:01.250 --> 01:37:05.190
1312
01:37:05.889 --> 01:37:09.575
It is a recurring provocative segment on the show. I,
1313
01:37:15.635 --> 01:37:20.349
they they the the powers that be can make it so that the average user,
1314
01:37:21.210 --> 01:37:24.989
has more issues. Right? That is, like, it's less accessible.
1315
01:37:25.295 --> 01:37:28.835
But this idea that they can squash free open source software is,
1316
01:37:30.094 --> 01:37:37.180
it seems like at this point is a false idea. Right? Like, the this idea that you can squash free speech on the Internet
1317
01:37:37.960 --> 01:37:41.580
and and free open source software as a derivative free speech
1318
01:37:43.215 --> 01:37:48.514
is is it pretty much a futile goal? Like, if someone is motivated, they're gonna be able to access it. Right?
1319
01:37:48.974 --> 01:38:00.000
1320
01:38:00.585 --> 01:38:03.485
They literally took it to the supreme court and,
1321
01:38:04.745 --> 01:38:12.340
you know, got, like, a court ruling that says code is free speech. They were literally, like, printing code on T shirts and printing source code in books.
1322
01:38:12.720 --> 01:38:15.935
And, you know, because the US government was trying to,
1323
01:38:16.495 --> 01:38:17.715
they they called it the
1324
01:38:18.095 --> 01:38:19.715
export of munitions.
1325
01:38:20.335 --> 01:38:35.905
They were trying to say that cryptography is some kind of weapon, and so you can't export it outside of the US, which which is how can you make math illegal, right, and code illegal, which is just free speech. So the the cypherpunks already fought that battle in the nineties and won free open source software is here to stay. Right?
1326
01:38:39.485 --> 01:38:40.385
1327
01:38:41.489 --> 01:38:45.030
I mean, I I so someone in the comments mentioned Satoshi stash.
1328
01:38:45.330 --> 01:38:48.790
I mean, like, what can you do with Satoshi stash? I guess you could tank the price.
1329
01:38:50.165 --> 01:38:52.265
Like, I I don't think that's really a vulnerability.
1330
01:38:53.045 --> 01:39:01.910
1331
01:39:02.770 --> 01:39:05.190
Recently, people think that the central bank,
1332
01:39:05.945 --> 01:39:13.885
digital currencies are gonna be somehow a comp competitor to Bitcoin, which doesn't make any sense at all because they're just
1333
01:39:14.370 --> 01:39:15.909
another version of Fiat
1334
01:39:16.210 --> 01:39:19.510
centralized currency with the same flaws that Bitcoin came to solve.
1335
01:39:21.305 --> 01:39:24.765
I just wanted to answer that comment as well. That's an interesting
1336
01:39:25.145 --> 01:39:26.685
1337
01:39:27.625 --> 01:39:31.005
I I actually think that's one of the, probably better
1338
01:39:31.370 --> 01:39:31.870
attack
1339
01:39:32.250 --> 01:39:32.570
vectors is,
1340
01:39:34.409 --> 01:39:37.870
and China is is, again, always, like, a good example. Like,
1341
01:39:38.855 --> 01:39:41.435
China made their own Internet. Right? They
1342
01:39:41.815 --> 01:39:48.760
they banned all the the US services like Google and YouTube and Twitter, and they made their own domestic versions, which they
1343
01:39:49.719 --> 01:39:50.460
control and
1344
01:39:51.000 --> 01:39:52.219
all the people use.
1345
01:39:52.840 --> 01:40:01.595
You know, first, because of the language barrier and the network effects of all the Chinese people using the domestic Chinese versions of these apps.
1346
01:40:01.975 --> 01:40:04.475
But second of all, because of the actual totalitarian,
1347
01:40:05.255 --> 01:40:08.170
you know, great firewall of China that
1348
01:40:08.470 --> 01:40:12.170
locks them from accessing it, without a VPN or a Tor or something.
1349
01:40:12.470 --> 01:40:14.650
And so in theory, you could
1350
01:40:15.255 --> 01:40:20.235
do the same kind of system, but in order to do so, you would have to also control the Internet.
1351
01:40:20.855 --> 01:40:21.675
And so
1352
01:40:22.560 --> 01:40:24.900
when when you're talking about the US government doing it,
1353
01:40:25.679 --> 01:40:32.905
fortunately, you know, the the Internet is not regulated in free countries like US or Japan. But in,
1354
01:40:33.765 --> 01:40:38.665
you know, totalitarian countries like China, for example, where they do control the Internet quite a bit,
1355
01:40:39.285 --> 01:40:40.585
it's much more likely
1356
01:40:40.950 --> 01:40:44.550
that they can coerce the users to using a,
1357
01:40:44.950 --> 01:40:47.290
central bank digital currency. However,
1358
01:40:47.830 --> 01:40:52.755
as the Bitcoin standard toss is that, you know, peep when it comes to people's
1359
01:40:53.375 --> 01:40:57.795
money, they get really, smart and they wanna protect it. And so,
1360
01:40:58.610 --> 01:40:59.590
it it'll certainly
1361
01:41:00.130 --> 01:41:00.610
be,
1362
01:41:01.170 --> 01:41:12.155
probably one area of resistance or one attack vector that, a country like China could do. But I don't see the US government being able to you know, who's gonna want a digital USD token,
1363
01:41:12.855 --> 01:41:22.270
that's controlled by the US government when you could have a free token? Right? Like, if you put them side by side on the menu, you're gonna pick Bitcoin every time. But in China, they're gonna try and lock that,
1364
01:41:22.650 --> 01:41:32.165
1365
01:41:32.560 --> 01:41:35.860
them in China. And they definitely see the difference between Bitcoin
1366
01:41:36.239 --> 01:41:37.219
and their digital
1367
01:41:37.679 --> 01:41:41.380
Chinese yuan, which is to totally controlled and surveilled.
1368
01:41:41.775 --> 01:41:44.435
I don't see any what's what's gonna be different with
1369
01:41:44.815 --> 01:41:47.395
a central bank digital currency. So,
1370
01:41:48.575 --> 01:41:53.940
it's impossible to compete with Bitcoin, which is this free alternative outside the system.
1371
01:41:54.960 --> 01:41:57.700
1372
01:41:58.925 --> 01:42:02.385
the easiest way to compete with these censorship resistance
1373
01:42:02.765 --> 01:42:09.080
networks and these distributed networks is to offer a better serve a a more convenient service
1374
01:42:09.380 --> 01:42:12.680
that has different trade offs, but is more convenient to the average user.
1375
01:42:13.540 --> 01:42:16.925
And and we saw that with piracy in the western states.
1376
01:42:18.344 --> 01:42:27.620
You know, BitTorrent was the easiest way to access videos, and then Netflix came in and they were like, if you pay us $10 a month, we'll make it more convenient for you.
1377
01:42:28.320 --> 01:42:29.380
And since then,
1378
01:42:30.080 --> 01:42:30.820
it's actually,
1379
01:42:31.315 --> 01:42:43.280
you know, bifurcated a little bit. It's it's it's all of a sudden, you have to have all these different services, and you have to sign up for all these different services. It's not just a single service. It's become more difficult again, and we see this resurgence in BitTorrent.
1380
01:42:43.660 --> 01:42:44.700
Right? And,
1381
01:42:45.260 --> 01:42:47.840
I I I could see maybe the same idea,
1382
01:42:49.075 --> 01:42:51.175
if you were gonna try and compete with Bitcoin,
1383
01:42:51.555 --> 01:42:52.295
you offer
1384
01:42:52.835 --> 01:42:53.335
maybe,
1385
01:42:54.275 --> 01:43:00.960
fiat that isn't shitty as as hell, You know? Like, you offer Fiat that that that isn't censorship,
1386
01:43:01.260 --> 01:43:04.240
that there's no censorship, that it isn't, like, getting inflated.
1387
01:43:04.675 --> 01:43:13.175
But at the at the same time, people are greedy, and and that won't last. It'll never last. It didn't last in terms of offering a competitor to BitTorrent,
1388
01:43:13.500 --> 01:43:17.600
and it won't last in in terms of offering a competitor Bitcoin. Like, there's no way
1389
01:43:17.980 --> 01:43:20.000
that the powers that be will offer
1390
01:43:20.620 --> 01:43:21.120
a
1391
01:43:21.635 --> 01:43:25.895
dollar that gives you any kind of censorship resistance or any kind of,
1392
01:43:27.715 --> 01:43:29.655
store of value long term. Right?
1393
01:43:31.360 --> 01:43:34.579
1394
01:43:34.960 --> 01:43:40.035
the convenience thing because that's it's already super convenient to swipe your Mastercard or,
1395
01:43:40.415 --> 01:43:42.275
use Venmo or whatever you're using
1396
01:43:42.655 --> 01:43:52.400
depending on which country you live in. So it's not a convenience thing. So how how would they to compete with Bitcoin, they would need to be censorship resistant and inflation resistant, and
1397
01:43:52.835 --> 01:43:56.775
that's not gonna happen. We all know that's not gonna happen. That's why I don't see any
1398
01:43:58.275 --> 01:43:58.775
competition
1399
01:43:59.955 --> 01:44:00.695
from these
1400
01:44:01.079 --> 01:44:03.340
new central bank digital currencies. Right?
1401
01:44:04.760 --> 01:44:14.925
1402
01:44:15.465 --> 01:44:16.125
1403
01:44:17.000 --> 01:44:19.980
not gonna be censorship resistant at all. It's gonna be custodial.
1404
01:44:20.760 --> 01:44:22.220
1405
01:44:23.985 --> 01:44:25.445
you know, fighting against
1406
01:44:26.304 --> 01:44:31.364
the central bank's digital coin. Right? Like, if if you have all the convenience benefits of
1407
01:44:32.065 --> 01:44:33.364
using a credit card
1408
01:44:33.880 --> 01:44:37.740
and all the inflation resistant benefits of using only Bitcoin,
1409
01:44:38.440 --> 01:44:41.660
then why would anyone want this, USD shit coin. Right?
1410
01:44:42.120 --> 01:44:42.620
1411
01:44:44.725 --> 01:44:48.565
Yeah. I mean, I I think it's just it's it just goes all the way. Like, there's
1412
01:44:49.445 --> 01:44:55.360
they can't compete. Like, no company compete can compete with Bitcoin. No government can compete with Bitcoin.
1413
01:44:55.660 --> 01:44:59.520
Because, like, even if for some, like, amazing theoretical
1414
01:44:59.980 --> 01:45:00.480
scenario,
1415
01:45:01.275 --> 01:45:03.055
like, the US government was, like, Americans
1416
01:45:05.115 --> 01:45:09.535
will have no restrictions with using this this digital cash
1417
01:45:09.850 --> 01:45:21.015
that we offer. They're not gonna allow other governments to use it, like, willy nilly. They're not gonna allow, like, other citizens to use it. Like, it'll never happen. That's never gonna happen, and,
1418
01:45:21.875 --> 01:45:28.360
you know, maybe in a theoretical, it competes, but they're just, like, humans will never allow that to happen. And that's the beauty of Bitcoin. The beauty of Bitcoin
1419
01:45:28.900 --> 01:45:34.680
is that you don't, you know, you don't have to rely on the strength of humans. You just have to rely on their greed, and humans are
1420
01:45:35.105 --> 01:45:36.885
are very reliably greedy.
1421
01:45:37.345 --> 01:45:37.845
Uh-huh.
1422
01:45:38.225 --> 01:45:43.605
And and and it's very cool that you can just rely on that greed and know that you're secure because of that.
1423
01:45:45.900 --> 01:45:50.400
We had a a very good question that I have highlighted here from 21ism,
1424
01:45:50.780 --> 01:45:51.920
Bitcoin Art Collective.
1425
01:45:52.775 --> 01:45:55.515
Where would we be without Tor? Should we be concerned
1426
01:45:56.135 --> 01:46:02.074
that Tor reliable Tor seems like the network has just been under attack constantly for the last couple weeks.
1427
01:46:03.480 --> 01:46:08.059
It seems like, honestly, that the development team isn't really taking censorship resistance
1428
01:46:08.360 --> 01:46:12.465
that seriously. They kinda just assume the US government will provide cover for them,
1429
01:46:14.605 --> 01:46:16.065
and the the
1430
01:46:17.085 --> 01:46:24.639
the dialogue from them has just not been great. So are we concerned about this reliance on Tor? Are we are we fucked if Tor
1431
01:46:25.340 --> 01:46:28.425
disappears tomorrow? Like, where where should we stand here?
1432
01:46:29.545 --> 01:46:30.764
1433
01:46:31.385 --> 01:46:32.105
A few
1434
01:46:32.505 --> 01:46:35.005
I guess, a month or so ago, the Bisk,
1435
01:46:35.784 --> 01:46:36.925
Dow had its first
1436
01:46:37.270 --> 01:46:40.889
consensus failure because Tor v 3 onions were completely
1437
01:46:41.590 --> 01:46:43.369
broken for, like, a couple days
1438
01:46:44.285 --> 01:46:47.185
from apparently some kind of nation state level attack.
1439
01:46:47.725 --> 01:46:48.225
And,
1440
01:46:48.844 --> 01:46:50.785
yeah, I mean, if if this
1441
01:46:51.370 --> 01:46:57.469
routes a 100% of its traffic through Tor and Tor stops working, well, then this stops working too. Right? So
1442
01:46:59.205 --> 01:47:03.785
I I think, again, at the end of the day, the cypherpunks will are smart, and they'll figure out
1443
01:47:04.165 --> 01:47:06.825
better, newer, more censorship resistant
1444
01:47:07.660 --> 01:47:09.340
technologies. And there's even other,
1445
01:47:09.740 --> 01:47:10.640
like I2P.
1446
01:47:11.100 --> 01:47:12.080
You ever heard of that?
1447
01:47:12.860 --> 01:47:14.000
There there's some other
1448
01:47:14.855 --> 01:47:21.195
1449
01:47:22.110 --> 01:47:26.290
1450
01:47:26.750 --> 01:47:31.865
technologies out there besides Tor. And and, again, you always have to use the right tool for the right job.
1451
01:47:33.045 --> 01:47:37.125
You could use, you know, sometimes maybe a VPN point to point or,
1452
01:47:37.710 --> 01:47:38.510
you know, maybe
1453
01:47:38.910 --> 01:47:42.050
yeah. There there's lots of technologies on the Internet to do,
1454
01:47:42.590 --> 01:47:43.650
censorship resistance,
1455
01:47:44.989 --> 01:47:45.489
including
1456
01:47:45.870 --> 01:47:58.420
clear net. You know? Like, if you need privacy, there's other ways to do that, by mixing your so, you know, Tor is great, and it's very important for like, we we use it a lot in Bitcoin and a lot of disk,
1457
01:47:59.360 --> 01:48:02.820
onions because it's so easy and so, well developed. But
1458
01:48:04.385 --> 01:48:11.365
if Tor died tomorrow, we would come up with something else that's probably much better and far superior, and,
1459
01:48:11.800 --> 01:48:15.020
you know, cypherpunks are smart. We'll we'll figure that out again.
1460
01:48:19.265 --> 01:48:22.565
1461
01:48:26.580 --> 01:48:31.800
Not that I can think of. No. The this is like Wizz's wheelhouse. He was, like, born to answer that question.
1462
01:48:36.065 --> 01:48:42.305
I mean, people keep try people love Elon with the Starlink shit. Like, are we bullish on Starlink in this,
1463
01:48:42.785 --> 01:48:43.765
in this conversation?
1464
01:48:44.940 --> 01:48:46.640
1465
01:48:47.100 --> 01:48:48.000
I can't wait.
1466
01:48:48.380 --> 01:48:52.320
1467
01:48:52.785 --> 01:48:54.725
Like, there people don't realize, like,
1468
01:48:55.665 --> 01:49:00.885
I mean I mean, if if you were paying attention to Luke Dash junior, you you you might realize.
1469
01:49:01.360 --> 01:49:03.219
But the majority of the US,
1470
01:49:05.520 --> 01:49:07.380
landscape is just horrible Internet.
1471
01:49:07.920 --> 01:49:11.060
So so the fact that that maybe I can buy
1472
01:49:12.625 --> 01:49:14.325
large acreages of land
1473
01:49:14.785 --> 01:49:16.645
in, the great American West
1474
01:49:17.425 --> 01:49:22.410
and have have reliable Internet along with it would be pretty big. But, of course, once again,
1475
01:49:23.110 --> 01:49:26.170
trust the third parties or security holes, and you're gonna have to trust,
1476
01:49:26.565 --> 01:49:30.425
you know, Starlink with that. Right? And we we don't wanna have too many nodes on
1477
01:49:30.804 --> 01:49:31.545
on Starlink.
1478
01:49:32.324 --> 01:49:37.930
1479
01:49:38.550 --> 01:49:40.570
1480
01:49:41.430 --> 01:49:42.250
So so
1481
01:49:42.550 --> 01:49:46.985
this is interesting. Right? So lightning is the only thing in my Internet
1482
01:49:47.925 --> 01:49:48.425
usage
1483
01:49:49.364 --> 01:49:50.985
that cares about reliability,
1484
01:49:51.605 --> 01:49:53.304
and no one talks about it.
1485
01:49:54.070 --> 01:50:01.210
Do you know what I you you know you understand where I'm coming from with this? Like, if if my note is down and I don't have a watchtower set up,
1486
01:50:02.065 --> 01:50:06.805
I'm susceptible to an attack. And if I'm a public Bitcoiner and I have a public
1487
01:50:07.505 --> 01:50:13.010
Bitcoin node, and let's say I'm in Texas and there's rolling blackouts in Texas,
1488
01:50:13.550 --> 01:50:17.969
like, all of a sudden my node is highly susceptible to attacks. Right?
1489
01:50:18.885 --> 01:50:21.785
1490
01:50:22.645 --> 01:50:23.945
application that,
1491
01:50:25.125 --> 01:50:29.739
you know, the Bitcoin is kind of unique in the sense where it's, quote, unquote, just a ledger
1492
01:50:30.120 --> 01:50:30.620
with
1493
01:50:31.000 --> 01:50:34.635
only transactions to update the ledger. Right? I mean, more or less, that's what it,
1494
01:50:35.514 --> 01:50:44.950
ends up being settled into at the end of the day. So you don't always have to be connected to the Bitcoin network all the time. But with pretty much any other higher layer application,
1495
01:50:45.970 --> 01:50:48.450
yeah, you'd need to be connected all the time. And,
1496
01:50:49.145 --> 01:51:00.989
there are ways to mitigate that using, as you said, like watch towers or basically just redundancy. Like, this is true of any service on the Internet. Right? You need multiple locations. You need failover. You need load balancing.
1497
01:51:01.770 --> 01:51:07.230
1498
01:51:07.635 --> 01:51:14.775
Like, if my lightning node is in Austin, Texas and it goes down because of a rolling blackout, like, I could get my money taken.
1499
01:51:15.550 --> 01:51:20.050
1500
01:51:20.590 --> 01:51:27.935
1501
01:51:31.580 --> 01:51:34.880
1502
01:51:35.660 --> 01:51:37.920
1503
01:51:38.555 --> 01:51:39.455
1504
01:51:40.395 --> 01:51:42.975
is is much more sick more secure if you're
1505
01:51:43.355 --> 01:51:53.610
1506
01:51:54.070 --> 01:51:54.570
protocol.
1507
01:51:55.225 --> 01:52:04.284
But really, like, Lightning's perfect for that because, like, you try if you're one exchange and you have a relationship with the other exchange, like, it's super easy to have a large private channel with them.
1508
01:52:04.850 --> 01:52:06.150
1509
01:52:06.610 --> 01:52:08.470
I can't wait for that to happen.
1510
01:52:08.850 --> 01:52:15.355
1511
01:52:16.295 --> 01:52:17.995
you know, like, trusted channels.
1512
01:52:19.970 --> 01:52:21.430
I I don't see the value.
1513
01:52:22.130 --> 01:52:25.510
1514
01:52:26.130 --> 01:52:28.630
the more trade offs you typically make.
1515
01:52:29.855 --> 01:52:30.914
So for example,
1516
01:52:32.094 --> 01:52:33.954
a popular app these days
1517
01:52:34.335 --> 01:52:35.875
is Uber. Right?
1518
01:52:37.380 --> 01:52:38.040
Under that, you
1519
01:52:38.500 --> 01:52:43.800
you know, you it's just a fully trusted setup. And below that, you even you even have multiple
1520
01:52:44.725 --> 01:52:51.260
fully trusted lower layers. Like, Uber uses your credit card, which is a fully trusted thing. It you you know,
1521
01:52:52.460 --> 01:52:54.320
they're using probably Amazon
1522
01:52:54.860 --> 01:52:59.280
Cloud Services to power the Uber systems. So, like,
1523
01:53:00.675 --> 01:53:05.895
yeah, like, in the Bitcoin base layer, we can be the most distributed, the most secure,
1524
01:53:07.155 --> 01:53:07.635
the most,
1525
01:53:09.190 --> 01:53:22.804
don't trust verify oriented. But the higher up the stack you go, okay, you wanna layer 2 payment network lightning? Yeah. You're gonna have to make some security trade offs. Or you wanna use liquid, you're gonna use biscuit, yeah, you're gonna have to make some security trade offs for those new use cases. And if you want
1526
01:53:23.105 --> 01:53:24.085
extreme convenience,
1527
01:53:24.680 --> 01:53:29.340
then you typically have to go to a fully trusted setup. So it's it's a it's like this
1528
01:53:29.960 --> 01:53:30.460
sliding
1529
01:53:31.000 --> 01:53:33.340
slider bar on the spectrum of
1530
01:53:33.655 --> 01:53:34.715
trading convenience
1531
01:53:35.175 --> 01:53:35.675
for
1532
01:53:36.455 --> 01:53:37.435
trading convenience,
1533
01:53:38.375 --> 01:53:40.795
to lose security, privacy, and freedom. Right?
1534
01:53:41.230 --> 01:53:43.170
So if you want if you want
1535
01:53:43.870 --> 01:53:45.010
maximum security,
1536
01:53:45.469 --> 01:53:46.610
then always use
1537
01:53:47.070 --> 01:53:52.685
on chain Bitcoin transactions, but it's very expensive. Right? So Right. I mean, I I think
1538
01:53:53.065 --> 01:53:59.165
1539
01:54:02.560 --> 01:54:04.180
Would you disagree with me?
1540
01:54:05.520 --> 01:54:10.474
I was just thinking about what that Because right. Like like, think about it. Like, if
1541
01:54:10.855 --> 01:54:14.155
if Wallet of Satoshi is running their custodial Lightning
1542
01:54:14.599 --> 01:54:23.099
and BlueWallet is running their custodial Lightning and some random ass custodial Lightning wallet in Russia decides they're gonna load up
1543
01:54:23.685 --> 01:54:24.985
their their network,
1544
01:54:25.365 --> 01:54:29.945
they can easily interact with the Blue Wallet and Wallet of Satoshi without any kind of,
1545
01:54:32.300 --> 01:54:38.800
not they don't they can reduce the trust of that relationship, and they can just, you know, have, like, a big channel between each other.
1546
01:54:39.425 --> 01:54:45.125
And as long as they're online and they have their watchtowers and whatnot, there's not much trust there, and it's it's minimized.
1547
01:54:45.505 --> 01:54:49.830
And it allows their individual users to all be custodial, though.
1548
01:54:51.010 --> 01:54:53.430
1549
01:54:53.890 --> 01:54:54.390
analogy
1550
01:54:54.770 --> 01:54:56.950
for the, Fiat world is
1551
01:54:57.975 --> 01:55:02.955
check checks, like paper checks. Right? If 2 businesses do a lot of businesses,
1552
01:55:03.495 --> 01:55:09.480
if 2 companies do a lot of business between each other, they'll typically write a lot of checks to each other. And because they,
1553
01:55:09.780 --> 01:55:12.600
you know, grow their reputation and trust over time,
1554
01:55:13.540 --> 01:55:15.320
they're not so worried that
1555
01:55:15.704 --> 01:55:20.684
someone's gonna suddenly bounce a check. But if you if you open a channel with someone,
1556
01:55:21.385 --> 01:55:22.204
it's completely
1557
01:55:22.970 --> 01:55:34.205
untrusted. And you don't know what kind of attacks they might do. Right? Like, I think lightning hasn't seen its fair share of, attacks yet. And maybe now that the price is going up, we'll see this more. But I think it was like Ellen Big
1558
01:55:34.585 --> 01:55:40.445
that tweeted something like, yeah. Someone opened the channel to us, and then now they're doing a denial of service attack, and they're trying to
1559
01:55:40.930 --> 01:55:44.070
broadcast an old state. You know, they're trying to rip them off for money.
1560
01:55:44.449 --> 01:55:44.949
And,
1561
01:55:45.410 --> 01:55:48.835
you know, as we discussed before, if you don't have the watch tower set up, that's
1562
01:55:49.295 --> 01:55:51.235
a potential attack vector. So
1563
01:55:52.175 --> 01:56:03.850
1564
01:56:06.005 --> 01:56:10.165
1565
01:56:10.885 --> 01:56:12.025
1566
01:56:12.960 --> 01:56:20.820
1567
01:56:21.280 --> 01:56:21.940
You know?
1568
01:56:22.545 --> 01:56:24.885
So there's always, like, more expensive
1569
01:56:26.065 --> 01:56:29.045
alternatives. It's just that you have to trade off that
1570
01:56:29.400 --> 01:56:33.020
security, privacy, and freedom for the cost or convenience. Right?
1571
01:56:35.080 --> 01:56:39.795
1572
01:56:42.255 --> 01:56:48.040
Like, I'm the only one who ever talks about it. And and and I tried to talk about it offline majority of time,
1573
01:56:49.620 --> 01:56:50.120
prerecorded,
1574
01:56:50.500 --> 01:56:52.075
and then, you know
1575
01:56:52.535 --> 01:56:59.915
now I just don't see people as much, so I just talk about it online. And because no one else is talking about it, so I feel like at this point, we just gotta talk about it.
1576
01:57:02.750 --> 01:57:04.610
Like, no one knows who that person is
1577
01:57:04.910 --> 01:57:05.490
at all.
1578
01:57:06.030 --> 01:57:11.505
1579
01:57:12.205 --> 01:57:13.344
1580
01:57:13.724 --> 01:57:15.105
50% of the network,
1581
01:57:15.810 --> 01:57:17.830
and it's all and even if they didn't
1582
01:57:18.210 --> 01:57:22.550
even if they're not malicious, it's all going through the same data center. Like, every single node
1583
01:57:22.905 --> 01:57:26.365
that they have is in the same data center in Virginia. So even
1584
01:57:26.745 --> 01:57:28.045
if they're not malicious,
1585
01:57:28.745 --> 01:57:32.125
someone could maliciously access all those nodes at the same time.
1586
01:57:32.750 --> 01:57:36.449
1587
01:57:36.750 --> 01:57:39.170
of the network? Do you mean 50% of the
1588
01:57:40.065 --> 01:57:42.565
routing capacity or Public routing capacity.
1589
01:57:43.264 --> 01:57:49.850
Public routing capacity. You could just blacklist those guys on your node never to route. Yeah. But no one blacklists them.
1590
01:57:51.110 --> 01:58:01.495
1591
01:58:03.155 --> 01:58:07.989
But still, most people don't. Like, the majority of nodes they interact with are have an lnbig
1592
01:58:08.370 --> 01:58:15.655
1593
01:58:16.195 --> 01:58:29.590
1594
01:58:30.905 --> 01:58:37.485
1595
01:58:37.980 --> 01:58:40.239
in this case, off chain analysis company. But,
1596
01:58:41.179 --> 01:58:52.655
I think it's much more likely that it's just some OG Bitcoiner who has a lot of Bitcoin and wants to get a return on his Bitcoin in Sats. Right? But then, Wiz, why is he running it all in the same data center in Virginia?
1597
01:58:54.720 --> 01:58:57.940
Why not? I don't know. That's his thing. And they're all hot wallets. Right?
1598
01:59:00.320 --> 01:59:00.980
I mean,
1599
01:59:04.085 --> 01:59:11.340
what's wrong with some running something out of a data center? Just because it's in Virginia, that makes you because it's all this no. No. The issue I have is that it's all
1600
01:59:13.420 --> 01:59:20.719
1601
01:59:21.295 --> 01:59:22.995
like, he's not gonna do the
1602
01:59:23.615 --> 01:59:27.075
the data center that's, like, down the street from his home. Right?
1603
01:59:27.775 --> 01:59:29.075
So Why not?
1604
01:59:30.050 --> 01:59:35.670
Maybe maybe he did. Maybe he did, and he knows the guy who operates it, and then everything's cozy. But,
1605
01:59:36.185 --> 01:59:41.085
you know, barring that, like, a lot of people say, like, oh, he's a Russian OG. Like, so he's a Russian OG,
1606
01:59:41.785 --> 01:59:47.850
and then he's running. I I I don't know. I'm not trying to dox the guy. It's just it's just something that no one really talks about,
1607
01:59:48.230 --> 01:59:50.410
and I feel like Wiz is, like, the perfect person.
1608
01:59:51.190 --> 01:59:53.050
1609
01:59:53.590 --> 01:59:54.810
many other there's,
1610
01:59:55.115 --> 01:59:59.855
like, bit refill runs a huge node, ASIC runs a huge node, open node.
1611
02:00:00.635 --> 02:00:04.815
1612
02:00:06.380 --> 02:00:06.880
1613
02:00:07.420 --> 02:00:09.199
I mean, is your concern
1614
02:00:09.500 --> 02:00:13.040
that they're, like, you know, logging all of the routing
1615
02:00:13.435 --> 02:00:19.375
1616
02:00:20.235 --> 02:00:23.150
I'm the only person who I've ever heard
1617
02:00:23.690 --> 02:00:30.350
on on any of these big Bitcoin podcasts talk about the concerns over centralization risk over lnstryke,
1618
02:00:31.585 --> 02:00:39.685
and KYC, and him, like, taking over liquidity on the network and knowing all these different public key the public keys of all the different nodes and whatnot.
1619
02:00:40.900 --> 02:00:45.800
I brought that up many times. I brought that up in in an interview with him on live,
1620
02:00:47.035 --> 02:00:56.415
And I I a 100%, I'm I'm concerned about Bitrefill becoming massive. I'm concerned about River's node becoming massive. I'm concerned about Bitfinex's node becoming massive.
1621
02:00:57.500 --> 02:01:00.000
I I my concerns with Lightning
1622
02:01:00.940 --> 02:01:05.765
sound like a shit corners concerns. Like, my concerns are that it becomes hub and spoke, KYC
1623
02:01:06.145 --> 02:01:08.565
regulated, super centralized. Right?
1624
02:01:09.825 --> 02:01:10.805
The the mitigation
1625
02:01:11.825 --> 02:01:13.685
is I need the freaks
1626
02:01:14.560 --> 02:01:16.740
out there that are listening right now
1627
02:01:17.120 --> 02:01:19.380
to to run their own lightning nodes,
1628
02:01:19.920 --> 02:01:24.605
that run them through Tor only so that their IPs aren't exposed on a hardware they control,
1629
02:01:26.025 --> 02:01:29.885
and run their own public, you know, their own public routing channels.
1630
02:01:31.239 --> 02:01:33.900
That's what we need. That's the solution. I just
1631
02:01:34.599 --> 02:01:35.900
I see this happening,
1632
02:01:36.440 --> 02:01:38.219
and I see Ellen Big happening,
1633
02:01:38.715 --> 02:01:41.855
and people just kind of ignore it. No one wants to talk about it.
1634
02:01:42.315 --> 02:01:48.050
1635
02:01:48.530 --> 02:01:56.525
USA? Like, AT and T or Sprint or even Google? Right. Oh, like, there's, you know, there's only, like or was it Comcast?
1636
02:01:56.905 --> 02:01:57.945
There's only, like,
1637
02:01:58.265 --> 02:02:14.325
a handful of ISPs in USA. Right? And every literally everyone's routing their traffic through them. So isn't that a concern? What if they're logging everyone's data? Well, actually, they are. Right? And they're probably doing the NSA choke point surveillance and all kinds of really nasty stuff.
1638
02:02:15.585 --> 02:02:19.445
And some people talk about it, but for the most part, you know,
1639
02:02:19.905 --> 02:02:20.805
people just
1640
02:02:21.430 --> 02:02:23.770
use ClearNet without any privacy
1641
02:02:24.230 --> 02:02:24.730
protection,
1642
02:02:25.510 --> 02:02:28.650
technologies at all. Right? So Oh my god. It's so bad.
1643
02:02:29.514 --> 02:02:53.940
1644
02:02:54.400 --> 02:02:55.780
then they should be. Right?
1645
02:02:56.480 --> 02:03:00.420
1646
02:03:00.965 --> 02:03:04.824
a certain lightning node has a lot of routing capacity. That's just
1647
02:03:05.125 --> 02:03:09.784
because they're a big business and they do lots of transactions and they need lots of liquidity. Right? Like,
1648
02:03:10.830 --> 02:03:13.570
there's nothing necessarily negative about that.
1649
02:03:13.870 --> 02:03:28.610
And it's it kind of I mean, that's how the Internet is also structured. Right? Like, how much traffic is routing through your home Wi Fi router? Well, only your own personal traffic. Right? But the the ISP that you're plugged into, they're routing everybody's traffic. So, like, that's probably
1650
02:03:29.310 --> 02:03:29.550
how
1651
02:03:30.190 --> 02:03:32.690
I mean, that's typically how most peer to peer networks,
1652
02:03:34.030 --> 02:03:35.570
get developed. It's just
1653
02:03:36.775 --> 02:03:38.395
most people, unfortunately,
1654
02:03:38.775 --> 02:03:48.630
don't set up their own routing nodes, whether that be an Internet routing node, a Tor routing node, a Lightning routing node, Bitcoin routing node, they typically trust other people's nodes because
1655
02:03:49.010 --> 02:03:53.670
it's difficult, they don't know how to do it, you have to maintain this thing, if it goes offline,
1656
02:03:54.155 --> 02:03:57.775
you might lose money, etcetera etcetera. Like, it's just
1657
02:03:58.315 --> 02:03:59.535
people will always
1658
02:03:59.995 --> 02:04:05.430
or not always, but 99% of people will optimize for convenience and low cost over
1659
02:04:05.890 --> 02:04:15.535
the privacy concerns that you have. Right? Obviously, we're we're the hardcore Cypherpunk kind of guys. Of course, we run our own nodes or even, like, blacklisting who our nodes can
1660
02:04:15.915 --> 02:04:17.935
route through and and things like this. So,
1661
02:04:18.475 --> 02:04:22.655
I mean, that's just how the world works. Right? It's that peer to peer networks do typically become
1662
02:04:23.110 --> 02:04:26.330
decentralized and not fully distributed like Bitcoin,
1663
02:04:27.350 --> 02:04:28.730
is, which is really cool.
1664
02:04:31.034 --> 02:04:31.755
1665
02:04:33.195 --> 02:04:37.375
lightning might be priced out for regular people running in on their.
1666
02:04:37.994 --> 02:04:40.200
Imagine if it costs $50
1667
02:04:40.660 --> 02:04:43.880
to open a channel, to close a channel, to rebalance a channel.
1668
02:04:44.420 --> 02:04:49.480
It's not gonna be cost effective if you're not if you're not a routing node that actually earned the fees
1669
02:04:50.165 --> 02:04:50.665
to
1670
02:04:51.605 --> 02:04:53.864
get back what you spend on
1671
02:04:54.565 --> 02:04:55.705
managing the liquidity.
1672
02:04:56.165 --> 02:04:58.345
So what you were saying, Matt, with the
1673
02:04:58.960 --> 02:05:00.500
wallet of the of the Satoshi,
1674
02:05:01.280 --> 02:05:01.780
Bluewallets,
1675
02:05:02.400 --> 02:05:04.020
those are probably the
1676
02:05:04.640 --> 02:05:06.180
services we're gonna see
1677
02:05:06.655 --> 02:05:07.955
become the bigger players
1678
02:05:08.335 --> 02:05:09.395
in the near term
1679
02:05:09.775 --> 02:05:16.920
future, at least. And Wallet of Satoshi already has a KYC requirement if you are gonna upper your limits of spending.
1680
02:05:18.019 --> 02:05:19.960
1681
02:05:20.340 --> 02:05:23.000
1682
02:05:23.460 --> 02:05:25.719
$1,000 or something, you have to KYC.
1683
02:05:27.605 --> 02:05:28.265
1684
02:05:29.285 --> 02:05:34.105
so so, Simon, I mean, I the way I look at lightning is, I mean, I don't think,
1685
02:05:34.560 --> 02:05:38.420
I I think we're only gonna we're gonna have the hard course run the routing notes,
1686
02:05:38.880 --> 02:05:45.285
whether that's, you know, a bit refill or if that's like a a sovereign routing node through Tor only.
1687
02:05:45.825 --> 02:05:49.445
We're gonna have the hard course run it. I think as long as we keep the accessibility
1688
02:05:49.825 --> 02:05:50.885
under, like
1689
02:05:51.380 --> 02:05:55.720
like, under wiz level, like, not wiz like, you shouldn't be wiz. You shouldn't be, like,
1690
02:05:56.100 --> 02:05:57.880
needing to run your home to ISP.
1691
02:05:59.135 --> 02:06:08.594
But, like, if we can Umbrell is a good example. Right? Like, if you have a Raspberry Pi with Umbrell, you can do it. Like an enthusiast. Like, we have an enthusiast who's willing to spend a little bit of money.
1692
02:06:09.650 --> 02:06:14.630
Like, they they should be able to run a routing node through Tor only. And and and maybe
1693
02:06:15.490 --> 02:06:26.785
those Tor only routing like, the network becomes bifurcated a little bit. Right? Like, if if you transact in the in the Sovereign Lightning Network, like, your fees will be a little bit higher than if you go,
1694
02:06:28.110 --> 02:06:37.945
1695
02:06:38.965 --> 02:06:40.105
Probably newbies
1696
02:06:40.405 --> 02:06:43.625
who get started on the Internet start out with an iPhone.
1697
02:06:44.030 --> 02:06:48.130
Right? It's a fully trusted setup to a centralized ISP,
1698
02:06:48.830 --> 02:06:50.530
telecom mobile carrier.
1699
02:06:51.204 --> 02:07:00.105
They use fully centralized apps like Facebook. All of their data is in the cloud. They don't use any encryption or end to end privacy. Nothing. Right?
1700
02:07:01.470 --> 02:07:09.170
Then maybe, like, one level about that, above that is, someone has a computer, like an actual desktop or a laptop computer,
1701
02:07:10.855 --> 02:07:11.515
you know,
1702
02:07:12.055 --> 02:07:15.835
then they might have a home ISP with a home Wi Fi router.
1703
02:07:16.135 --> 02:07:20.340
Then maybe one level up from that is they might use a VPN or they might have,
1704
02:07:21.040 --> 02:07:21.780
you know,
1705
02:07:22.400 --> 02:07:22.900
some
1706
02:07:23.520 --> 02:07:25.139
minimal privacy software.
1707
02:07:26.405 --> 02:07:30.265
You know, and you keep going up the ladder all these rings until
1708
02:07:31.205 --> 02:07:34.105
someone operates their own full node, which in the Internet
1709
02:07:34.640 --> 02:07:39.540
world, we call that an ISP. If you run a an a full full routing node on the Internet,
1710
02:07:40.320 --> 02:07:40.820
then
1711
02:07:41.495 --> 02:07:49.275
you can black you can pick who you wanna peer with. You can blacklist what traffic goes where and everything. And so if you look at lightning network,
1712
02:07:49.600 --> 02:08:01.345
it's probably gonna be a very similar model. Newbies start out by installing an app on their app iPhone that's fully custodial, fully trusted, and that's fine for for getting them for seducing them into
1713
02:08:01.805 --> 02:08:04.545
starting on lightning. And then once they have enough
1714
02:08:04.989 --> 02:08:05.489
sats,
1715
02:08:06.270 --> 02:08:08.449
or they, you know, they get goxed or,
1716
02:08:08.910 --> 02:08:18.275
they don't wanna do they wanna get taxed or whatever, for whatever reason, they get pushed up the up the ladder, and they they run their own, you know, Raspberry Pi,
1717
02:08:18.815 --> 02:08:20.034
lightning routing node.
1718
02:08:20.574 --> 02:08:27.429
And, you know, they maybe have more and more channel capacity as you go up the ladder. And then the top of the ladder is, like,
1719
02:08:27.830 --> 02:08:28.890
you know, lnbig
1720
02:08:29.255 --> 02:08:34.315
kind of people or Bitrefill kind of people where you're this huge business that does tons of transactions.
1721
02:08:35.495 --> 02:08:45.680
You know, there's it's not again, it's you have to have the right tool for the job. There is no one size fits all for Bitcoin or Lightning or the Internet or or anything in life. Right?
1722
02:08:47.955 --> 02:08:48.935
1723
02:08:53.700 --> 02:08:54.680
No. Yeah. I mean,
1724
02:08:56.100 --> 02:08:58.520
I I think I think as humans, we tend
1725
02:08:59.540 --> 02:09:02.920
to try and distill it down a little bit too much,
1726
02:09:03.525 --> 02:09:05.385
But, of course, there's gonna be
1727
02:09:07.125 --> 02:09:12.340
different levels to this shit. There's always there's always there's always different levels to this shit.
1728
02:09:14.340 --> 02:09:17.159
We had a previous question from a freak
1729
02:09:17.699 --> 02:09:18.199
asking
1730
02:09:18.500 --> 02:09:19.000
if
1731
02:09:19.755 --> 02:09:28.895
asking you specifically, Wizz, do you think it should be a concern for the average user if they're running BISK on their regular computer? They have a MacBook Pro or something.
1732
02:09:29.620 --> 02:09:32.040
They're running it on their regular computer. Should they be concerned?
1733
02:09:33.140 --> 02:09:36.920
1734
02:09:40.255 --> 02:09:40.995
I mean,
1735
02:09:41.375 --> 02:09:46.820
it's that's that's exactly the use case it's designed for is to run disk on computer. In fact,
1736
02:09:47.460 --> 02:09:55.699
1737
02:09:56.435 --> 02:10:04.855
so, I mean, what I would add there is is compared to running on a dedicated machine so, like, you have, like, a dedicated Linux machine or even a dedicated,
1738
02:10:05.420 --> 02:10:06.720
you know, Apple machine
1739
02:10:09.020 --> 02:10:14.640
versus your your regular everyday computer is obviously, your regular everyday computer
1740
02:10:15.005 --> 02:10:17.264
has a bigger attack surface. So if if
1741
02:10:17.565 --> 02:10:24.385
if you're gonna keep large amounts yeah. If you're gonna keep large amounts on bisque, like, the bet like, the larger the amount,
1742
02:10:24.730 --> 02:10:35.385
1743
02:10:36.324 --> 02:10:43.465
isolated in its own container or virtual machine or dedicated bare metal machine is always a better security setup than,
1744
02:10:43.810 --> 02:10:52.390
you know, this you know, running your hot wallet on your same computer that you look at porn at or something and probably install all these random apps. Right? So,
1745
02:10:53.445 --> 02:10:54.005
you know, I I
1746
02:10:54.965 --> 02:11:00.905
1747
02:11:01.480 --> 02:11:01.980
that's
1748
02:11:02.880 --> 02:11:03.380
irrelevant.
1749
02:11:04.280 --> 02:11:06.520
1750
02:11:08.040 --> 02:11:11.020
it's a hot wallet. Like any hot wallet Porn agnostic.
1751
02:11:12.345 --> 02:11:12.845
Yes.
1752
02:11:13.305 --> 02:11:16.685
I mean, it's just any kind of malicious apps that you might,
1753
02:11:17.625 --> 02:11:20.830
be tricked into installing or might hack your computer
1754
02:11:21.210 --> 02:11:21.710
somehow,
1755
02:11:22.010 --> 02:11:28.910
you know, through some Oday exploit. You just remove all of that attack vector if you only have disk running in its own,
1756
02:11:29.685 --> 02:11:33.785
either virtual environment or or bare metal com computer environment?
1757
02:11:34.645 --> 02:11:37.385
1758
02:11:38.350 --> 02:11:43.330
if you use a dedicated machine, you're always you're always better off security wise, guys, no matter what.
1759
02:11:45.150 --> 02:11:46.450
That that that's just
1760
02:11:47.594 --> 02:11:51.295
it it is physics. It's just basic it's basic security hygiene.
1761
02:11:52.715 --> 02:11:58.170
So so, Wiz, you know, so right now we have on the screen, we have this is trading at $45,000.
1762
02:11:59.110 --> 02:12:00.970
Evil Empire is trading at 49,300.
1763
02:12:02.305 --> 02:12:04.645
Bisk was the 1st to trade above 50k.
1764
02:12:05.745 --> 02:12:09.045
It goes back and forth. You know, liquidity isn't that high
1765
02:12:09.990 --> 02:12:14.410
with this. I mean, very it's the the to be frank, in the United States
1766
02:12:14.790 --> 02:12:17.530
with the fiat, you know, liquidity is very low.
1767
02:12:20.614 --> 02:12:24.795
What what what do we do to solve this? Like like, what what is the
1768
02:12:25.335 --> 02:12:29.570
what is there a plan? Is there a plan in place, like, that people are thinking about here?
1769
02:12:30.510 --> 02:12:35.445
1770
02:12:35.985 --> 02:12:45.290
1771
02:12:46.390 --> 02:12:46.890
is
1772
02:12:47.750 --> 02:12:50.490
is that the largest market is Monero Bitcoin.
1773
02:12:52.585 --> 02:12:56.605
1774
02:12:57.385 --> 02:13:05.250
1775
02:13:06.465 --> 02:13:08.005
1776
02:13:08.785 --> 02:13:16.730
the number of USD to Bitcoin trades on Bisk is greater than the number of Monero trades. Right? It's just volume is dwarfed like a motherfucker.
1777
02:13:17.270 --> 02:13:22.250
Right. Because so here's what happened. The Monero got delisted from a bunch of centralized
1778
02:13:22.695 --> 02:13:31.355
exchanges because, you know, it protects people's privacy, and centralized exchanges are regulated by governments that don't like that. For example, in Japan,
1779
02:13:31.889 --> 02:13:36.949
the Japanese government says Monero is a money laundering tool. So, oh, it's evil. So
1780
02:13:37.250 --> 02:13:48.855
all that Monero trading volume goes to BISK, and there's some whales on there who do, you know, huge Monero trading volume on Bisk for its censorship resistance and privacy features, which is great because
1781
02:13:49.475 --> 02:13:53.620
that trading fee revenue goes to the Bisk DAO, which basically funds
1782
02:13:54.239 --> 02:14:00.655
the development of the Bisk project so that it can support the Bitcoin to fiat trades, which is the real use case. So it's
1783
02:14:01.034 --> 02:14:08.014
it's it's cool that the Monero community and the Bitcoin community have that overlap where they both want that privacy and censorship resistance,
1784
02:14:08.530 --> 02:14:14.870
And it's cool that the Monero whales are willing to pay the Bisk project to do that so that the Bisk project can,
1785
02:14:15.410 --> 02:14:19.065
you know, actually have a a good Bitcoin to fiat training
1786
02:14:19.605 --> 02:14:20.105
platform.
1787
02:14:21.204 --> 02:14:22.664
1788
02:14:23.925 --> 02:14:29.010
what would you basically, the the reason we don't have heavy volumes in USD,
1789
02:14:29.470 --> 02:14:34.130
and even, like, euros, like, double the volume, but still nothing, to be honest,
1790
02:14:34.895 --> 02:14:35.555
is because
1791
02:14:36.095 --> 02:14:41.315
the regulated exchanges haven't been really closed off fully yet. Like, I think
1792
02:14:41.695 --> 02:14:44.900
we see a we if we see,
1793
02:14:46.400 --> 02:14:48.260
an exit ramp ban,
1794
02:14:48.640 --> 02:14:55.375
we we see, like, countries start trying to block the exits from people leaving their shitty money to the good money,
1795
02:14:55.755 --> 02:14:56.975
then all of a sudden,
1796
02:14:59.060 --> 02:15:07.380
Bisk needs to be ready and willing. Like, Bisk needs to be there ready to go. And at that point, like, all of a sudden, Bisk quickly becomes
1797
02:15:07.835 --> 02:15:11.695
like, to me, Bisk is already the most important market, which is crazy to say
1798
02:15:12.155 --> 02:15:21.980
when something like BitMex is doing 1,000,000,000 of dollars worth of volume a day. Something like Coinbase is doing 1,000,000,000 of dollars worth of volume, but way less 1,000,000,000 than BitMEX
1799
02:15:22.360 --> 02:15:24.300
because BitMEX is derivative exchange.
1800
02:15:25.160 --> 02:15:28.485
And then, like, Bisk is doing, like, $80,000,
1801
02:15:30.225 --> 02:15:31.525
or the volume a day.
1802
02:15:32.305 --> 02:15:34.885
But Bisk is, to me, is still the most important.
1803
02:15:35.680 --> 02:15:48.015
And and that that's because when those when those restrictions end up happening, that's where we're most vulnerable. We're most vulnerable at that that intersection. And and when those restrictions happen, that's when Bisk steps up to the fucking plate. Right?
1804
02:15:48.555 --> 02:15:56.470
1805
02:15:57.410 --> 02:16:00.795
In in a shit hits the fan situation where governments ban Bitcoin,
1806
02:16:01.255 --> 02:16:09.630
Bisk users would not be affected because you could still do peer to peer trading even cash at a, you know, Starbucks kind of thing. So,
1807
02:16:10.410 --> 02:16:12.830
when you talk about the liquidity
1808
02:16:14.410 --> 02:16:15.310
and these offers,
1809
02:16:16.955 --> 02:16:21.615
So first of all, if I trade with someone on Bisk
1810
02:16:22.235 --> 02:16:23.135
a few times,
1811
02:16:23.630 --> 02:16:33.410
I'm just gonna message them directly and say, hey. Why don't we just trade directly outside of DISC? Because you kinda trust each other at a at a after a certain point, you build up reputation or whatever.
1812
02:16:35.055 --> 02:16:37.155
And so a lot of the trading volume
1813
02:16:37.535 --> 02:16:38.335
that was,
1814
02:16:39.215 --> 02:16:40.995
you know, came from BISC
1815
02:16:41.300 --> 02:16:46.840
is not going to be reflected in the public trade statistics data. Right? Because
1816
02:16:47.619 --> 02:17:09.325
1817
02:17:10.104 --> 02:17:13.085
1818
02:17:13.460 --> 02:17:15.479
your, you know, a few few,
1819
02:17:16.020 --> 02:17:19.640
reputable traders from Bisk and you trade directly with them, great. Like,
1820
02:17:20.020 --> 02:17:28.455
now that's even better than that's truly peer to peer at that point. Right? You just happen to, like, meet them on BISK. So and I actually made a lot of friends,
1821
02:17:28.835 --> 02:17:31.895
who I met on BISK from trading with them and and everything. So,
1822
02:17:32.739 --> 02:17:49.064
that that's a cool thing about it being a exchange network or a community of of Bitcoiners, right, that you would not have on any other exchange at all. You would never have, like, you would never chat with your trading partner on a centralized exchange rate. So
1823
02:17:49.960 --> 02:17:53.880
even though the trade statistics might be a smaller number and it might look,
1824
02:17:54.200 --> 02:17:54.700
smaller,
1825
02:17:55.319 --> 02:17:58.060
the community around this is the real
1826
02:17:58.835 --> 02:18:00.055
power. It's the real strength.
1827
02:18:01.075 --> 02:18:04.775
Right, you're just seeing the tip of the iceberg on the public trade statistics data.
1828
02:18:08.200 --> 02:18:10.540
1829
02:18:11.560 --> 02:18:16.275
Like, I agree I agree with you, but it's it's Because people optimize for,
1830
02:18:17.075 --> 02:18:21.415
1831
02:18:22.101 --> 02:18:28.040
BitFlyer in Japan, I can have the money in my account a few minutes later or or my bitcoins or whatever. So
1832
02:18:28.420 --> 02:18:29.220
this is a,
1833
02:18:30.235 --> 02:18:31.695
you know, it's like how many people
1834
02:18:32.395 --> 02:18:33.195
run their own,
1835
02:18:33.675 --> 02:18:37.915
ISP or something. Like, very few people. But if tomorrow the government says,
1836
02:18:39.090 --> 02:18:54.065
you know, ISPs can't have customers anymore, well, there's gonna be a shitload of people starting to throw on ISPs. Right? And so that's kinda what BISK is. It's a it's a peer to peer trading network. It's there for the hardcore people, but if shit hits the fan, everyone is now hardcore
1837
02:18:54.445 --> 02:18:57.905
1838
02:18:58.830 --> 02:19:01.810
1839
02:19:02.830 --> 02:19:04.370
1840
02:19:04.990 --> 02:19:10.995
1841
02:19:11.695 --> 02:19:19.060
trade with a little bit clumpier user experience, a little bit slower trade process, a little bit higher fees to trade on bisque
1842
02:19:19.680 --> 02:19:23.859
if you if you value your privacy. And that's like as you said, the Monero community
1843
02:19:24.160 --> 02:19:25.700
is huge on bisque because,
1844
02:19:26.056 --> 02:19:29.516
obviously, they really care about privacy if they're trading Monero. Right?
1845
02:19:29.895 --> 02:19:33.115
1846
02:19:33.460 --> 02:19:39.640
they realize how important it is, and they they they wanna they wanna remove the the reliance on risk for it.
1847
02:19:40.875 --> 02:19:55.109
I mean, I don't know if they'll ever you know, they they're trying to create their own DEX, you know, decentralized exchange because they understand the importance of it. Out of out of anyone, the pry the the so called privacy coins understand it the most because they're getting hit by the regular the regulators.
1848
02:19:55.895 --> 02:20:08.280
1849
02:20:09.540 --> 02:20:10.040
1850
02:20:10.420 --> 02:20:14.855
like, his shitcoin project is trying to make it compatible with Lightning.
1851
02:20:15.395 --> 02:20:22.190
So, like, he has his shitcoin, Taari, which is, like, the shitcoin layer of of Monero, and then that's supposed
1852
02:20:23.051 --> 02:20:26.270
to atomic swap with lightning. But, anyway, that's besides the point.
1853
02:20:26.891 --> 02:20:27.790
I I think,
1854
02:20:30.024 --> 02:20:33.885
Fiat interacting with Fiat is always difficult, so, of course,
1855
02:20:34.665 --> 02:20:40.000
it is easier to integrate Altcoins into Bisq. Like, trading trading trust minimized
1856
02:20:40.380 --> 02:20:43.520
with Altcoins in Bisq, obviously, way easier.
1857
02:20:43.900 --> 02:20:45.680
You don't have to deal with fiat institutions.
1858
02:20:46.315 --> 02:20:46.976
1859
02:20:48.715 --> 02:20:54.175
1860
02:20:54.500 --> 02:21:03.375
But, the majority of volume on Bisk on the fiat side is is through traditional bank transfers. Right? So you have to deal with that counterparty risk on the traditional finance side.
1861
02:21:04.015 --> 02:21:07.475
1862
02:21:07.855 --> 02:21:10.035
Bisk to delist all these shit coins.
1863
02:21:10.575 --> 02:21:11.075
But
1864
02:21:11.780 --> 02:21:17.240
there's it's basically only Monero and Bitcoin to Fiat. And, obviously, the the main use case
1865
02:21:17.620 --> 02:21:21.080
of Bisk is to trade real Fiat money, to Bitcoin.
1866
02:21:22.205 --> 02:21:24.625
But but, yeah, like, all these payment methods
1867
02:21:25.325 --> 02:21:25.825
typically,
1868
02:21:26.925 --> 02:21:29.745
it's it's like the same as any network effect. Right?
1869
02:21:30.240 --> 02:21:31.620
In every country,
1870
02:21:32.080 --> 02:21:34.979
they have, like, the go to payment method. Right? So, like, in Japan,
1871
02:21:35.359 --> 02:21:39.300
it's the, Japanese bank transfer. Everybody who has a Japanese bank account
1872
02:21:39.625 --> 02:21:40.444
can instantly
1873
02:21:40.745 --> 02:21:46.125
and basically for free wire money to any other Japanese bank account. Right? And in the USA, you have, like, Zelle
1874
02:21:46.641 --> 02:21:53.141
or, if you're really hardcore, you use postal money order, which is, by the way, I think the coolest payment method on this. And,
1875
02:21:54.165 --> 02:21:56.005
you know, there's just a number of,
1876
02:21:57.045 --> 02:22:13.570
1877
02:22:14.395 --> 02:22:17.135
1878
02:22:17.595 --> 02:22:18.095
And,
1879
02:22:19.035 --> 02:22:22.655
and, like, all of a sudden, I got all these disputes for, like, postal money order trades.
1880
02:22:23.250 --> 02:22:26.789
And they're all, like, fucking Trump, and they're, like, so pissed because,
1881
02:22:27.170 --> 02:22:46.030
like, their their shit just got lost in the mail or is delayed. And, like, I would even look up on the post office tracking because they're, like, you know, proving it to me that they sent it. And the tracking actually said, like, package lost. I was like, what the fuck? Like, they're so incompetent. They have, like, a status code for that. And I'm like, okay. I guess.
1882
02:22:46.864 --> 02:23:01.939
They're responsibly incompetent. Right? Like, they they they they fucking lose the package, but at least they they let you know promptly that they lost it. Yeah. It's a response to the so I'm like, okay. I guess I'm the mediator. I guess, like, yeah. It's the post office fault. Like, it's not your fault. I I I see that. So,
1883
02:23:02.399 --> 02:23:11.955
yeah. I mean, fortunately, that was just around the voting time or whatever voting scam they were trying to do. But, yeah. Postal money order is, like, the coolest hack of the
1884
02:23:12.410 --> 02:23:14.670
legacy fiat system. Right? Because
1885
02:23:15.210 --> 02:23:16.270
all the government,
1886
02:23:16.970 --> 02:23:18.510
mass surveillance and,
1887
02:23:19.210 --> 02:23:23.495
you know, where they seize the bank accounts and everything, that's like a relatively new
1888
02:23:24.274 --> 02:23:24.774
idea.
1889
02:23:25.314 --> 02:23:37.605
And for, you know, a 100 years before that, the way people sent money to each other was through the post office. And in Japan, that's, like actually, the Japanese post office is, like, the biggest bank in the world or something crazy Because,
1890
02:23:38.545 --> 02:23:42.245
and and even like, like other big banks like American Express, obviously,
1891
02:23:42.865 --> 02:23:52.159
Express. They used to be like federal they used to be like a delivery company in a railroad and all these things, and then they just focused on the the financial services. Right? So all of these
1892
02:23:53.045 --> 02:24:02.730
legacy really old school payment things are like the post office for sending money, and they never got regulated by the government. So you can go to a post office
1893
02:24:03.750 --> 02:24:07.450
with cash, buy a postal money order with no KYC,
1894
02:24:08.395 --> 02:24:09.535
send it to the guy's
1895
02:24:10.235 --> 02:24:18.979
PO box, right, and he he's at the post office and he brings it to the counter and he cashes it and he gets cash. Like, that is the coolest,
1896
02:24:19.680 --> 02:24:29.165
way to send money in in USA. Right? Is in terms of security, privacy, and, censorship resistance. And more so for BISK, the the post office website
1897
02:24:29.784 --> 02:24:35.324
gives you the ability to, like, type in all the serial numbers of the money order and stuff, and you can verify
1898
02:24:35.790 --> 02:24:46.984
as a neutral third party bisque mediator if the money order was cashed, what post off it was. But, like, you can Well, this is so this is the funniest part about Bitcoin, right, is that, like, when I got into Bitcoin,
1899
02:24:48.005 --> 02:24:52.880
1900
02:24:53.340 --> 02:25:03.154
and I, like, had to, like, use the orange phone and, like, pick up the orange phone, like, call some random ass number, and then, like, wait a couple days for, like, the thing to process. I paid, like, huge fees.
1901
02:25:03.854 --> 02:25:07.795
And and and and it's the same situation, you know, we,
1902
02:25:08.630 --> 02:25:22.035
you know, maybe the the situation has been streamlined so called streamlined in the regulated KYC department, and then you have to deal with all the ID verification and whatnot. But, like, when when when you do, like, a proper bisque trade
1903
02:25:22.495 --> 02:25:22.995
or
1904
02:25:23.855 --> 02:25:29.399
or, you know, in the past when you're like, I does Biscuit have Western Union as an option as a payment option?
1905
02:25:30.100 --> 02:25:33.905
1906
02:25:34.545 --> 02:25:40.726
1907
02:25:41.470 --> 02:25:45.890
Like, why Bitcoin exists. Like, to access Bitcoin to get to Bitcoin,
1908
02:25:46.590 --> 02:25:50.210
you have to go through, like, a full stack process of learning why
1909
02:25:50.846 --> 02:26:10.266
the current system sucks to access the Bitcoin in the first place. It's like the biggest friction to accessing it is the thing you're attempting to replace. So as you hit that friction, instead of turning you off, which is usually what friction does, it's like, oh, I don't wanna use this app. It, like, it, like, teaches you what or, like, why am I doing what I'm doing.
1910
02:26:13.720 --> 02:26:18.220
1911
02:26:19.399 --> 02:26:21.260
It's very it's, like, very
1912
02:26:22.585 --> 02:26:26.765
difficult to do the paperwork. It's full KYC on both sides. It's just,
1913
02:26:27.465 --> 02:26:29.645
totally crushed by postal money orders,
1914
02:26:30.665 --> 02:26:35.410
despite them being a little bit slower because you actually have to send the piece of paper through the mail.
1915
02:26:36.830 --> 02:26:40.530
A postal money order is only, like, a couple dollars. Right? And I think you can do, like, $1,000
1916
02:26:41.976 --> 02:26:46.235
per money order. So you can just, you know, buy an infinite amount of anonymous
1917
02:26:46.615 --> 02:27:01.155
1918
02:27:04.175 --> 02:27:04.675
Yeah.
1919
02:27:08.290 --> 02:27:14.790
1920
02:27:15.345 --> 02:27:18.005
1921
02:27:18.545 --> 02:27:20.085
1922
02:27:20.704 --> 02:27:29.510
1923
02:27:29.891 --> 02:27:32.150
1924
02:27:32.715 --> 02:27:36.255
Concerning the member in the beginning with their own call now.
1925
02:27:39.354 --> 02:27:41.295
1926
02:27:41.721 --> 02:27:51.615
Do you want them to re ask them? Freaks, hit us with new questions on the mempool. Okay. We should take the mempool questions while we're at it. Do you remember any of them?
1927
02:27:54.715 --> 02:27:55.215
1928
02:27:55.595 --> 02:27:57.936
can we we want that to go right?
1929
02:27:58.490 --> 02:28:04.190
1930
02:28:05.425 --> 02:28:08.404
So so so so people disagree with me. I think,
1931
02:28:10.145 --> 02:28:11.604
we're fucked as Bitcoiners,
1932
02:28:12.520 --> 02:28:15.980
Yeah. If you can easily confirm 1 sapro byte in 5 years.
1933
02:28:17.240 --> 02:28:19.660
Do you disagree with me or do you not?
1934
02:28:22.025 --> 02:28:25.965
1935
02:28:26.345 --> 02:28:34.270
I think we're already seeing it here. If you post the one set, it's just gonna get rejected from the nearest node. It's not gonna get propagated even.
1936
02:28:34.811 --> 02:28:35.311
So
1937
02:28:36.235 --> 02:28:39.375
using the new feature we have on mempool space, you can see which,
1938
02:28:39.835 --> 02:28:44.735
minimum transaction fee that's are probably gonna get rejected from majority of networks. So
1939
02:28:45.420 --> 02:28:48.239
that bar is gonna get higher and higher. I think
1940
02:28:49.260 --> 02:28:53.119
we have a huge backlog, and then it's gonna be a fight to find
1941
02:28:54.436 --> 02:28:58.775
1942
02:28:59.875 --> 02:29:03.255
1943
02:29:03.950 --> 02:29:06.689
there's a lot of demand for transaction, and there's a limited
1944
02:29:07.790 --> 02:29:09.410
amount of man pool space,
1945
02:29:10.510 --> 02:29:15.075
like the 300 megabyte, default. So it's gonna kick kick out all the transactions
1946
02:29:15.936 --> 02:29:19.795
that have the lowest fee when the trans when the mempool is full.
1947
02:29:20.335 --> 02:29:20.835
So
1948
02:29:22.660 --> 02:29:31.400
right now, let's see. Yeah. It's kicking out everything below 3 sets per byte right now because the mempool is quite full. But you can check on mempool. That space.
1949
02:29:31.825 --> 02:29:34.485
Transaction fees are not that high. It's just $3
1950
02:29:35.265 --> 02:29:38.145
for a segment transaction to get into the next block. But,
1951
02:29:39.025 --> 02:29:41.045
there's a long there's a big backlog
1952
02:29:41.700 --> 02:29:42.740
on queue, which makes,
1953
02:29:44.180 --> 02:29:45.640
that's happened with
1954
02:29:46.420 --> 02:29:48.920
the purging of, low fee transaction.
1955
02:29:49.436 --> 02:29:54.415
1956
02:29:55.835 --> 02:29:59.221
confirm a one separate byte transaction like Bitcoin has
1957
02:29:59.601 --> 02:30:01.460
issues? Like, we're that we should be worried?
1958
02:30:03.120 --> 02:30:12.855
Worried about what? Like, should we be worried about the security guarantees of the Bitcoin network if you can easily, in 5 years, confirm a 1 separate byte transaction?
1959
02:30:14.050 --> 02:30:16.870
1960
02:30:17.250 --> 02:30:19.030
securing the Bitcoin blockchain
1961
02:30:19.490 --> 02:30:22.070
because the fees are because the blocks
1962
02:30:22.705 --> 02:30:25.765
people hasn't haven't realized yet how scarce
1963
02:30:26.465 --> 02:30:26.965
the
1964
02:30:27.345 --> 02:30:29.205
space is. It's like the 21
1965
02:30:29.710 --> 02:30:30.210
1000000
1966
02:30:31.310 --> 02:30:32.869
coin limit. Right? It's the
1967
02:30:33.310 --> 02:30:36.850
1968
02:30:37.675 --> 02:30:40.415
the SoftSimon is saying right now that in 5 years,
1969
02:30:41.035 --> 02:30:45.215
the the chance that a one sapper bite is gonna get confirmed is fucking blasphemous.
1970
02:30:45.710 --> 02:30:50.130
Right? Like, there's no, like, there's no chance that that happens. It's probably not gonna happen.
1971
02:30:51.070 --> 02:31:02.480
1972
02:31:03.280 --> 02:31:07.461
There gonna be so much demand for using the most scarcest resource
1973
02:31:08.240 --> 02:31:10.181
on the planet, which is the block space.
1974
02:31:11.255 --> 02:31:11.755
And,
1975
02:31:12.534 --> 02:31:16.555
so that, you know, there's gonna be someone trying to
1976
02:31:17.015 --> 02:31:19.800
get in always. So once that, you can
1977
02:31:20.340 --> 02:31:22.600
I think you it's it's gonna be a memory?
1978
02:31:24.899 --> 02:31:27.159
1979
02:31:27.655 --> 02:31:28.955
a while back. I said,
1980
02:31:29.815 --> 02:31:32.075
why don't more Bitcoiners understand
1981
02:31:32.455 --> 02:31:32.955
why
1982
02:31:33.575 --> 02:31:39.430
Bitcoin fees are gonna become so expensive? It's the same concept of digital scarcity. Everyone knows that
1983
02:31:39.890 --> 02:31:45.910
the price of Bitcoin goes up because the number of BTC is scarce capped at 21,000,000,000.
1984
02:31:46.450 --> 02:31:46.950
Well,
1985
02:31:47.595 --> 02:31:54.255
the same exact concept of digital scarcity applies to space in the bit Bitcoin's blockchain itself.
1986
02:31:54.761 --> 02:32:04.775
Every block only has a finite amount of space in it, and so number is gonna go up for that space as well. And this is why we started the mempool space project,
1987
02:32:05.795 --> 02:32:06.295
because
1988
02:32:06.675 --> 02:32:08.135
it's going to track that,
1989
02:32:08.915 --> 02:32:19.400
market for the price of mempool space and bit and blockchain space. Right? It it's it's the same concept. If you believe that the price of Bitcoin is gonna go up, then you must also accept
1990
02:32:20.005 --> 02:32:22.346
the price of Bitcoin transaction is going up.
1991
02:32:23.285 --> 02:32:25.226
1992
02:32:27.210 --> 02:32:35.550
you know, one sat is going like, I believe in sat send parity, for instance. Right? So, like, right now, you can get 2,000 sats per dollar.
1993
02:32:37.085 --> 02:32:38.785
So you can get you can get,
1994
02:32:40.365 --> 02:32:43.505
what is that, 20 sats per percent.
1995
02:32:46.230 --> 02:32:50.490
That's going to obviously go down. Right? So so so maybe,
1996
02:32:51.565 --> 02:33:10.170
I mean, so so maybe maybe the sat goes up even though it's 1 separate byte, like, that value like, the that purchasing power is gonna go up. Right? So could we could potentially have, like, a little bit of a gap period, but long term, you're still fucked. Right? Like, long term, like, we're gonna see SATs rates go up.
1997
02:33:11.485 --> 02:33:15.426
1998
02:33:16.125 --> 02:33:16.625
doesn't
1999
02:33:17.085 --> 02:33:17.585
really
2000
02:33:18.900 --> 02:33:23.400
care about the fiat price of Bitcoin. Right? It's just how many cents per byte.
2001
02:33:25.176 --> 02:33:29.575
2002
02:33:30.216 --> 02:33:39.570
I mean, we we hear complaint complaints about fees both when the price goes up, but also because the price goes up, there's more transactions. Right? But but it's also because
2003
02:33:40.030 --> 02:33:43.011
the purchasing power of a sat goes up at the same time.
2004
02:33:44.385 --> 02:33:52.645
So so someone might argue that they're so bullish that 1 sapper byte is gonna still confirm because the purchasing power of 1 sapper byte is just so massive.
2005
02:33:54.101 --> 02:34:00.120
Is is that, like, is that a ridiculous concept? Like, that's a Catan concept. Like, that's what Catan is, our boy Catan.
2006
02:34:00.535 --> 02:34:04.395
Our 1 separate byte maximalist over there that's that's running a a mempool
2007
02:34:04.855 --> 02:34:08.635
that that'll handle all of your 1 separate byte transactions up to a gig.
2008
02:34:10.120 --> 02:34:20.654
He, he believes that that the one set is just gonna increase in purchasing power to the point where you'll still be able to confirm it, you know, once every couple years. That's I think it's about,
2009
02:34:21.055 --> 02:34:27.030
2010
02:34:28.050 --> 02:34:35.475
has increased a lot in fiat terms, but, it's still a big competition to get into the next block in the block space. So
2011
02:34:38.755 --> 02:34:40.135
once that's no.
2012
02:34:40.595 --> 02:34:41.494
I doubt it.
2013
02:34:45.010 --> 02:34:45.510
2014
02:34:46.450 --> 02:34:48.210
I guess, 6102 got,
2015
02:34:48.770 --> 02:34:51.990
censored from whatever platform he was using to
2016
02:34:53.605 --> 02:34:56.186
comment on the stream, but he just sent me a message
2017
02:34:56.645 --> 02:34:57.375
asking this,
2018
02:34:59.480 --> 02:35:03.660
is, is Docker a single point of failure for all of these node boxes?
2019
02:35:05.400 --> 02:35:05.900
And
2020
02:35:06.795 --> 02:35:17.199
2021
02:35:17.579 --> 02:35:18.079
2022
02:35:19.180 --> 02:35:20.720
So so say you install,
2023
02:35:21.260 --> 02:35:30.115
mempool space app on your Raspberry Pi using the, Umbro app store, which is just a a front end UX for the Docker hub,
2024
02:35:30.755 --> 02:35:31.975
container repository.
2025
02:35:32.740 --> 02:35:34.439
I mean, if Docker
2026
02:35:34.740 --> 02:35:43.485
censors you and cancels your account, you can just make your own Docker Hub server and Umbrel can point to that. Right? I mean,
2027
02:35:45.305 --> 02:35:48.045
everything is open source and everything is self hostable.
2028
02:35:48.970 --> 02:35:50.910
Just because we have a GitHub account
2029
02:35:51.370 --> 02:35:55.870
doesn't mean that we need GitHub. Right? Like, you could make your own GitLab or whatever.
2030
02:35:56.534 --> 02:36:01.274
So I don't think Docker is a single point of failure or anything. Everything is, cryptographically
2031
02:36:01.654 --> 02:36:06.580
verified, so Docker Hub can't inject any malware or anything into the container anyway.
2032
02:36:07.680 --> 02:36:08.819
So it's pretty secure.
2033
02:36:10.775 --> 02:36:15.995
2034
02:36:16.775 --> 02:36:17.815
asking if it's,
2035
02:36:18.375 --> 02:36:20.075
mempool based or something.
2036
02:36:20.830 --> 02:36:21.330
So
2037
02:36:22.350 --> 02:36:24.609
I wanna say, yes. Our fee estimator
2038
02:36:25.070 --> 02:36:26.290
is mempool based.
2039
02:36:28.670 --> 02:36:29.170
It's
2040
02:36:30.655 --> 02:36:34.115
it's taking, like, a snapshot from how the mem the state of the mempool
2041
02:36:34.495 --> 02:36:35.795
as it is right now,
2042
02:36:36.495 --> 02:36:36.895
and,
2043
02:36:37.375 --> 02:36:39.955
get the few estimates for the upcoming blocks
2044
02:36:42.870 --> 02:36:44.490
compared to there are some,
2045
02:36:45.351 --> 02:36:47.131
legacy or other
2046
02:36:47.695 --> 02:36:50.755
alternative fee estimator tools that are using a more probabilistic
2047
02:36:51.695 --> 02:36:53.075
fee estimation system.
2048
02:36:53.535 --> 02:36:54.755
And which one you
2049
02:36:55.260 --> 02:36:57.279
might prefer is just up to you,
2050
02:36:58.939 --> 02:37:00.159
user preference, basically.
2051
02:37:05.535 --> 02:37:07.635
2052
02:37:09.855 --> 02:37:10.915
Did we get it?
2053
02:37:12.335 --> 02:37:24.005
2054
02:37:25.105 --> 02:37:28.565
believe in SATS and priority. I I believe we'll hit SATS and priority,
2055
02:37:28.940 --> 02:37:33.500
and then we'll continue to pump forever after that. So I do not think that that is a,
2056
02:37:35.261 --> 02:37:42.845
it's not a death blow for pump forever. I think we will continue to pump forever after we we hit the SATSEN parity. I think people don't really realize,
2057
02:37:44.985 --> 02:37:47.085
how early Bitcoin is.
2058
02:37:48.470 --> 02:37:50.729
I really hate the Clubhouse platform.
2059
02:37:51.909 --> 02:37:53.770
It is very anti privacy.
2060
02:37:54.925 --> 02:37:59.985
There's a lot of things I I have issues with. I mean, I just social media in general, I have a lot of issues with.
2061
02:38:00.766 --> 02:38:04.561
But there's a lot of noob outreach on on my platform, and I have,
2062
02:38:05.180 --> 02:38:08.080
participated a bit there because I have FOMO and,
2063
02:38:08.700 --> 02:38:11.760
you know, what what else am I gonna do? And
2064
02:38:14.415 --> 02:38:23.390
people it we're so early. Like, people we we're all in a little bubble. We don't realize how early we are. Like, we're, like, insanely fucking early.
2065
02:38:23.770 --> 02:38:26.029
There's a lot of progress to be made on UX,
2066
02:38:27.050 --> 02:38:34.415
and there's a lot of progress to be made on motivation. Like, we just need people to be motivated. Like, people need to know why they're doing things. Like, they're
2067
02:38:35.035 --> 02:38:39.770
like, you you don't end up with a Bitcoiner who, like, cares about shit
2068
02:38:40.311 --> 02:38:43.931
that hasn't gotten burned somewhere along the line. Even if they don't get burned
2069
02:38:44.630 --> 02:38:45.130
in
2070
02:38:45.615 --> 02:38:51.715
in the in the Bitcoin world, they they get burned outside the Bitcoin world. You know, PayPal closed their account or,
2071
02:38:52.655 --> 02:38:56.359
their local government, like, closed down their business or,
2072
02:38:58.180 --> 02:39:00.520
you know, they they they had a
2073
02:39:01.380 --> 02:39:12.780
a business partner fuck them over in an in a non trust minimized way. Right? So, like, there's, like, all these different things that you get burned and you learn and you try and improve yourself. And it's gonna take time for people to get burned, and that's the unfortunate
2074
02:39:16.460 --> 02:39:16.960
2075
02:39:17.340 --> 02:39:18.780
Yeah. I I think,
2076
02:39:19.500 --> 02:39:21.715
that you you totally nailed it with the UX,
2077
02:39:22.274 --> 02:39:24.615
being really important because a lot of people,
2078
02:39:25.155 --> 02:39:27.015
especially, like, a few years ago said,
2079
02:39:27.395 --> 02:39:29.015
it's kind of ridiculous for
2080
02:39:29.351 --> 02:39:46.255
to expect everyone to run a full node because it's so difficult to set up. But I said, that's that's ridiculous. Like, it used to be really difficult to connect to the Internet. You have to, like, buy a modem and install your computer and get a phone line and ISP got now you just go to the store and get a iPhone, and
2081
02:39:46.601 --> 02:39:48.940
literally everyone has the Internet in their pocket.
2082
02:39:49.561 --> 02:40:00.766
Right? And so as the UX of Bitcoin improves where it's just an app to install on your phone, okay, I installed a Bitcoin full node app. Done. Literally, everyone can run a Bitcoin full node now. Or,
2083
02:40:01.306 --> 02:40:03.726
other projects like the UTRIXO project,
2084
02:40:04.950 --> 02:40:08.970
you know, my friend Calvin in Korea got a grant from BitMax to work on that.
2085
02:40:09.430 --> 02:40:13.530
It's gonna make it even easier for these, fully verifying nodes
2086
02:40:14.136 --> 02:40:17.755
to just be like an app on the mobile phone because now they can use,
2087
02:40:18.216 --> 02:40:20.315
minimal amount of, resources.
2088
02:40:21.176 --> 02:40:26.380
So it is totally gonna be possible for everyone to run a fully verifying,
2089
02:40:27.319 --> 02:40:37.135
bitcoin node and together with a lightning node, you know, packaged in some kind of mobile app. Right? You won't even need a Raspberry Pi. You just use your phone. And then,
2090
02:40:37.675 --> 02:40:38.335
you know,
2091
02:40:39.250 --> 02:40:41.190
shit gets real. Right? Like
2092
02:40:41.891 --> 02:40:46.070
2093
02:40:46.516 --> 02:40:50.936
like, we need more people. Like, people should run full nodes. That's ridiculous.
2094
02:40:51.716 --> 02:41:07.905
And then you can do you can do 2 things. You can make it easier to actually, you know, use your own node, or you can be, like, I'm just gonna throw in the towel and just, like, run nodes for people and just go to a completely custodial method. Right? And, like, so, like, fuck you. Like, why are you just throwing in the towel there? Like, fight.
2095
02:41:10.365 --> 02:41:12.545